Inside Ohio State special teams: Who's in charge, and should the Buckeyes spend more money on it?

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk

Episode: Inside Ohio State Special Teams: Who's in Charge, and Should the Buckeyes Spend More Money on It?
Date: October 1, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises & Bill Landis (Blue Wire)

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Overview

In this episode, Doug and Bill dive deep into the current state of Ohio State's special teams—who leads it, how responsibilities are divided, and whether the Buckeyes should invest more in coaching this phase. They dissect ongoing questions around staff structure, compare approaches across top programs, critique Ohio State’s field position game, and debate whether special teams are keeping up with the Buckeyes’ championship aspirations.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who’s Actually in Charge of Special Teams?

• Timestamps: 01:01 – 10:01
• After asking Head Coach Ryan Day for clarity, Doug & Bill sort out the present structure:
  • Rob Keys holds the official title of "Special Teams Coach," running the 7 a.m. Tuesday meetings (07:04).
  • Other key staff (linebackers, safeties, quality control) have defined roles in distinct special teams areas.
• Quote:

  "So, Rob Keys...his title is special teams coach and Ryan Day said he runs the 7am meeting as the special teams coach. Rob Keys is the former head coach at The University of Findlay...that, that to me is like a very comprehensive guy."
  — Doug, 07:04

The Current Breakdown (27:31):

• Kickoff Coverage: James Laurinaitis (LB coach)
• Kickoff Return: Nate Ebner (Quality Control, Special Teams)
• Punt Coverage: Matt Guerrieri (Safeties coach)
• Punt Return: Rob Keys (Special Teams coach)
• Field Goal: Tyler Bowen (OL coach)
• Field Goal Block: Sam McGrath (Assistant LB coach)
• Specialist Help: Gunner Daniel (kickers/long snappers)

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2. Shift Away from a Dedicated, Full-Time Special Teams Spot

• Background:
  • Former coach Parker Fleming held a full, recruiting-eligible assistant spot now used for James Laurinaitis (LBs).
  • Ohio State’s structure allows for quality specialists—who can’t recruit off-campus but can be paid flexibly outside the 10 full assistants.
• Bill’s Skepticism:

  "There's nothing stopping Ohio State from having the best special teams coordinator in college football...I think Ohio State could probably do better than that."
  — Bill, 08:57

• They compare this to Iowa’s high-salaried LeVar Woods ($700k) and ponder if OSU should take a similar approach (13:17).

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3. Money, Value, and Ambition

• Timestamps: 13:17 – 26:57
• Breaking down salaries: Rob Keys makes about $72,000 while some power-program coordinators make up to $1M.
• Bill and Doug debate whether OSU should match Iowa’s spending, with Bill advocating more investment.
  • Doug: "If it's just money...it's Ohio State, they have plenty, might do whatever they want." (26:13)
  • Bill: "I still think Ohio State can probably stand to spend more than $75,000 on the special teams coordinator." (26:25)

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4. Is the By-Committee Approach the Best?

• Structure:
  • OSU has multiple coaches leading each special teams unit for buy-in and developmental reasons.
• Pros
  • Positional coaches (LB, safeties) lead the units they know best; facilitates player buy-in.
• Cons
  • Could dilute focus—should one expert orchestrate the whole thing like in Iowa?
  • Bill: “You can have a special teams coordinator and then underneath him have various position coaches heading up the specific units of special teams. I think that's fine.” (20:52)
• Debate:
  Would a top-level “special teams CEO” (e.g., LeVar Woods) help, or is it unnecessary for OSU’s needs?

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5. Field Position and Performance Concerns

• Timestamps: 34:53 – 40:25
• Doug and Bill review OSU’s poor net field position ranking: 100th in the country (34:53).
• Defensive dominance and new kickoff rules affect kickoff return opportunities/results; poor punt return execution is highlighted.
  • Only one of OSU's eight own punts pinned an opponent inside the 20, whereas seven opponent punts pinned OSU (37:52).
• Quote:

  “Ohio State doesn't believe it should be and is not willing to accept being a hundredth in the nation in anything.”
  — Doug, 34:53

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6. Precision, Mistakes, and Risks

• Real Examples:
  • Missed opportunities on punt returns, critical fumble at Washington, kickoff returns allowed to advance beyond the 25.
  • Ryan Day dissatisfied: “He [kicker Jaden Fielding] ‘sort of slowly got run over. But he did make the tackle and Ryan Day said he's made…two tackles of the six kickoffs this year, which he does not like that ratio. That means something else is going wrong." (41:23)
• Fewer possessions (due to slower tempo & strong defense) mean special teams errors matter more in close games.

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7. Comparisons and Consequences

• Resource Allocation:
  • OSU spends heavily on talent and top coordinators, but perhaps neglects special teams expertise.
  • Programs like Iowa “live” on special teams dominance.
• Doug's Summary:

  "It is not the thing that is waiting to ruin Ohio State's national championship opportunities, but I think it's the thing they probably could improve on the most between now and the national championship game." (47:52)

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Memorable Quotes

• "Are we sure that's the standard on special teams now, Ryan?"
  — Doug, 11:59

• "They're not lost. I just think they can be like a little better. Like in the search for enhancing everything in the program, which Ryan Day is always on, on a mission to do. Like that is something that probably can be enhanced a little bit."
  — Bill, 48:42

• "That's Sam McGrath at work right there."
  — Doug, explaining why fan awareness of the special teams inner workings matters, 50:03

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Notable Moments & Timestamps

• 01:01 — Doug asks Ryan Day directly: Who’s in charge of special teams?
• 07:04 — Rob Keys’ background and rationale for his role
• 13:17 — Iowa’s LeVar Woods and debate over investment in special teams
• 17:33 — Salary breakdown: OSU vs. other programs
• 27:31 — List and explanation of who runs each special teams unit
• 34:53 — Ohio State is 100th nationally in net field position; discussion of why this stands out
• 41:23 — Details of a key kickoff return given up against Washington
• 46:12 — As pace slows and possessions shrink, special teams matter more
• 47:52 — Doug and Bill agree: Special teams isn’t fatal, but is OSU’s weakest link
• 50:03 — How fans can now recognize specialized coaches’ contributions

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Conclusion & Takeaways

Doug and Bill ultimately agree that while special teams is not about to derail Ohio State’s title hopes, it's the area most susceptible to improvement. They challenge the program’s current structure and spending, noting that the Buckeyes have the means and motivation to pursue the same elite standard here as in every other facet of the program.

For Ohio State fans:

• Special teams may not be the sexiest topic, but for a team with razor-thin margins at the highest level, it could be the hidden edge—or danger—in a title run.
• The debate on whether to spend big on a single special teams maestro, or continue the committee approach, is far from settled.
• Stay alert to those little moments in games—they just might be the difference.

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Listen for:

• Deep staff breakdown and “who’s doing what” (27:31)
• Insightful debates on value, investment, and philosophy (13:17, 20:52, 26:25, 34:53)
• Practical field position analysis and its ripple effects (34:53–40:25)
• The clear sense of where OSU strives—and sometimes falls short—of being the nation's best.

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Transcript

[A]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly, Macaroni and cheese. Modelo and College Football College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action looking to reward full time fans who give their all for their team and their school week in and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace em up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer sponsor of the College Football Playoff Modelo Foreign.

[B]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Special teams Landis we asked Ryan Day about this on Tuesday. I sacrificed nah. On behalf of everybody. We needed to know. You and I were talking about we need to know. My question that I asked was like hey Ryan, who's in charge of special teams? Because we weren't exactly sure what the deal was with the Ohio State Buckeyes. So I wasn't like asking for an opinion. I was actually like for restate the facts about who's in charge of what.

[C]

You know, we needed it. We had. We actually, I don't like at no point during this off season I was it relay to us what that, what the setup was like because we knew last year what it was and then Brian Hartline was a part of that. He got promoted so we figured he wasn't a part of it anymore. And then we never got the associated moves. But also what Ryan Day described on Tuesday is more kind of drastically different than I even I realized it wasn't just like they replaced Brian Hartline's role. It's like they kind of reshuffled everything they were doing. Yeah.

[B]

So the idea here is who's in charge of the different Ohio State special teams units and then like how are they doing and what do we think of Ohio State special teams? We're also going to have a written piece on our sub [e-mail] because we're not going to go into like every bit of numbers here. It's a bit of an odd conversation and part of the reason it's relevant is because of the recent past because when Ohio State did have a full time special teams coach, which they had through the 2023 season, a person on staff who was taking up one of the 10 primary full, full recruiting, full dude, full salary kind of spots on the staff like those, those spots still are gold, right? Because they've the staff. Everything you can do in college football is like, there's no rules to anything anymore. Used to be 85 scholarship. Used to be like, well, you can only add this many quality control and this many. Then they started hiring like 58 year old guys who've been in the NFL for 17 years as quality control assistants or whatever. It's like, what are we doing here? So Ohio State right now, beyond Ryan Day, if you look online at their, their staff directory, it's Ryan day. It's the 10 full time assistants. And that's what's still limited. Those guys can recruit, right? So that's what's still limited. But it also used to be only those 10 guys could coach in practice. I'm winking. If you're on the podcast, that was winky wink, winky wink. Because I'm sure in the history of the NCAA never did anybody other than those 10 full time assistants ever coach in practice. Right, Bill?

[C]

Well, that's how the, that's how the hang 100 on them thing allegedly came to be. Jim Harbaugh accused Ohio State of, of playing fast and loose with that particular coaching rule. And Ryan Day said, you better watch it or I'm gonna hang 100 on you.

[B]

And Rich Rodriguez got in NCAA trouble for, for that. That was like one of the things of the Rich Rodriguez era. So like at various times it's like, okay. And I often get frustrated by the rules that are there, but everybody knows the rules are broken. And it's like, well then why do we have. That was actually, I don't know, like, is that really that big of a deal? So anyway, they did away with that, so now everybody can coach. So it did open up how many people you can have on staff. So, so the point that we're making here is Parker Fleming, the beleaguered former Ohio State special teams coach, was the.

[C]

Full time assistant.

[B]

Often beleaguered by me, was let go after the 2023 season. And then Ohio State used that spot to hire James Laura Knightis as a linebackers coach. So Jim Knowles didn't have to coach linebackers anymore. And like that trade of a full coaching, full recruiting spot was like manna from heaven, right?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So what has happened now is Ohio State has a special teams coach, but it's not one of those ten full time assistants which now only matters in terms of recruiting. So we're trying to figure out like how this happens. But, but one of the baselines, Bill, that Ryan Day explained is that every Tuesday morning at 7am they have a full team special teams meeting. And there's only four groups of people who do not have to participate in the 7am Tuesday morning meeting. One group is the quarterbacks because Julian Sands not covering punts. Although you know what? I wouldn't mind seeing Lincoln Keenholz running down covering a kick. He'd blow people up, wouldn't he?

[C]

I also wouldn't mind saying like Lincoln Keenholtz be the holder, right? Because then you, then you just kind of plant that little seed like is this guy going to pull the ball and try to throw a pass? Right. Yeah, college teams don't do that that often. Wasn't Stetson Bennett the holder for Georgia like while he was a starting quarterback?

[B]

I can do it all. It is unfair to expect any of backup quarterbacks to serve as the holder, as I once did. No offensive lineman, no defense. Because I mean of course those guys have to block on field goal and extra points. Like that's not what the meeting is about. So you know they other, other points during the day, during practice they remind those guys, hey, block blocked on the kicks, right? Offensive line, no defensive line, no coordinators. Which is Matt Patricia's too busy scheming it up for this stuff and Brian Hartline's too busy scheming it up for this stuff. Which is one of the points you were making as we were discussing this last week that Brian Hartline used to have a role in special teams return game and you were assuming, anticipating that he was no longer part of that. And you're correct.

[C]

Yeah. The breakdown last year was that Brian Hartline and Keenan Bailey were in charge of the return game and James Laurinitis and I think Matt Guerreri were in charge of like the kick coverage game.

[B]

Okay. And I could remember like back in the day because, because Jim Trestle used to not have a. Ryan Day was kind of the first guy, first Ohio State coach to have a full time special teams coordinator for a while. But Jim Trestle, they used to name all the different special teams units, different things and it would be like Tavor Johnson's in, in charge of the Viper gang and, and Paul Haynes is in charge of the Raptor gang or whatever. And they were, you know, it was great. So here's who. Ryan Day. So, so here's how Ryan Day explained it. It's so it's. Rob Keys is actually his title is special teams coach and Ryan Day said he runs the 7am meeting as the special teams coach. Rob Keys is the former head coach at The University of Finley. And this is his second year at Ohio. No.

[C]

Is it his third year Ohio State?

[B]

But second year doing, but second year like he's is the guy who like replaced Parker Fleming. Right. And having that, that name in his title. So I, I think this is a very logical person to have in charge of your special teams. Someone who has been in charge of a whole football program. Guess what? At that level you better be great at special teams. Guess what? At that level when you're the head coach you're involved in everything from recruiting to game planning to like painting the locker room. Right? So like that, that to me is like a very comprehensive guy. I don't, I'm not going to pretend that I know a ton about Rob Keys but that background as opposed to Parker Fleming who was like, I don't know, like half an offensive coach, half a defensive coach. I guess he was down the hall. Let's hire him like I did. I didn't like Parker Fleming's resume to be the special teams coach at a place like Ohio State. I like Rob Keys resume.

[C]

I mean I, I, here's the thing. I don't, I don't want an Ohio State shouldn't want to live in the world where your special teams coordinator is taking the spot of a 10th person who can recruit on the road for you, but you can still pay a really good special teams coordinator. So the resume I think is fine. But I also think maybe it's just me playing devil's advocate. There's nothing stopping Ohio State from having the best special teams coordinator in college football. And it's not even detrimental to the staff anymore because you can just pay that guy whatever you want to pay him and he doesn't have to go on the road of recruit. So it's fine. I, I think it probably could be better. It's still like a Division 2 head coach. Sound like if Rob Keys was like a multi time championship Division 2 coach maybe I would feel a little better about it. But it's just like a guy who was in Ohio who I'm assuming has some strong specialties background. But I think Ohio State could probably do better than that.

[B]

Their special team coach could be the guy who was the Buffalo Bills specials teams coach from 2017 to 2021. Right. Like that, you could have that.

[C]

That was oddly specific. Do you know who that is?

[B]

I, I have no idea.

[D]

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[B]

Specificity helps cover ignorance. So like, I just thought I'd throw that out there, but.

[C]

But can I. We're gonna talk about them in a second because you're going to run through the people who were doing what like Nate Ebner to me would be a very interesting special. Like just like main special teams coordinator who's now on high. Yeah, but you can, you can explain.

[B]

What he's doing, but also like Nate Ebner. But see that like, I don't know if I would have a little issue with that because like I to our now, like, Nate Ebner's never been collectively in charge of something before. I actually think he might be in the right role because you can use his expertise without asking, manage people in a way that he's never done. Well, Rob Keys has managed people his whole life.

[C]

So yeah, head coach of the special teams.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, head coach of the special teams. And, and, and really, I think the nut of what we're talking about is the standard at Ohio State is to be the best. That is the standard in hiring a head coach. It is the standard in recruiting a quarterback. It is the standard in finding coordinators. It is the standard in recruiting players at every single position. Every. And so just it kind of feels like, are we sure that's the standard on special teams now, Ryan? They said like we want to be the best. And it's like, well, does this collection of people reflect that desire to be the best? And it's not, again, like we don't know enough to say. I felt like we knew enough back in the day to be like they could do better than Parker Fleming, especially when he was taking away from something else. That was part of that issue, as you said. But part of the issue with the special teams. The dedicated special teams coach before was not only okay are you actually getting good special teams play out of this particular dedicated special teams coach, but you're also hurting your defense or your offense where you could have hired that person to help either side of the ball. So that was, that was an issue. Then that issue is gone. So at least that's whatever they're doing or not doing on special teams at least isn't hurting them somewhere else.

[C]

Yeah but like just for like case in point, Iowa employs a full time special teams coordinator and pays him 700000 a year because they're serious about it. Like they're not Ohio State's not paying 700000 a year for a special team scoring.

[B]

Tell me, tell me what that guy's name is again. People think he might be the next head coach.

[C]

LeVar Woods.

[B]

People love LaVar Woods. Well my brother in law does who's an Iowa fan who I think is representative of a dedicated, passionate Iowa fan. Yes. But also right now. So let me, let me ask you this. Do you think Ohio State should use one of their like if High State could hire Lavar Wood, should they.

[C]

Recruit? He doesn't, he doesn't take the space of anyone on the staff but he doesn't matter. It's financial resources.

[B]

But that guy wants to move up in his job and he's still like a fairly young guy. I think sometimes like someone in Rob Keys's position has done. I think what he's going to do and is happy coaching special teams. The var woods wants to be on the road. He wants to be one of the tennis.

[C]

Does any coach want to be on the road?

[B]

Oh, if you aspire to something. If he wants to be like John Harbaugh once went back in the day like many moons ago when I was briefly covering the Philadelphia Eagles he was like the Philadelphia Eagles special teams coach. He got a head NFL head coaching job out of that. I think if you are still moving up in your career you would not be satisfied and would not take a job where you pull yourself out of being one of the 10 assistants on the road to be one of those non 10. So, so I don't like, I don't.

[C]

Think Ohio paid you a million dollars.

[B]

To do wouldn't help his career. I do not think lavar woods would.

[C]

Take Levar woods left Iowa to come be Ohio State special teams coordinator for a million dollars and made Ohio State special teams operation the best in the country. You don't think that would help his Career.

[B]

No, because, because he wouldn't be fully, he wouldn't be a full, a full part of the staff. I don't think he would accept.

[C]

I, I think you would and I think you would absolutely be a full part of the staff. The only difference is he, he can't go to high schools to recruit. I don't know how often he's doing that for Iowa.

[B]

Are we seeing that though? Are we seeing people who are currently employed as one of the 10 fully employed staff members who can recruit and do everything, take jobs that are. It is still less.

[C]

I couldn't give you an example. I would not know because you still recruit on campus. You can still recruit. Like you can communicate with, with prospects. You just can't go to their high school. I don't think that that's that large of a distinction though.

[B]

So.

[C]

By the way, Lavar was born in Cleveland. Seems like he grew up in Iowa, but he was born in Cleveland.

[B]

Do you think so if they are.

[C]

I didn't mean to sidetrack the whole entire conversation.

[B]

No, this, I mean like this is important. Like how Ohio State goes about this matters. Right. And, and again because like what are we talking about? It's like I don't know. You're on a razor's edge. They have the ability to win the national title this year and not too many years ago they lost the ability to win a national title based on a game ending special teams play and, and other things like that could happen. The absolute. Absolutely the difference between winning and losing a national championship for Ohio State this year could be a kick or punt return. They give up at an inopportune time. Doesn't it even have to be for a touchdown? But they give up a 60 yard return that sets up a game winning field goal. Right. Could be somebody makes a mistake or a penalty, you know that, that calls back at Ohio State return. But they, they block somebody in the back and it's not the, you know, all those things I, they are good enough to win it, but they are not so good. Even though I think they should be. The odds on favorite to win it, they're not so good. It's like what the stuff doesn't matter. So do you think they should pay a special teams coach a million dollars a year?

[C]

Yes. I don't think so. Ryan Day said in the answer to your follow up question. I believe that Ohio. He said Ohio special teams has to be an advantage to us.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I don't think they operate that way which is like it's not the end all be all. I'm not like Nick, Nick Saban had like terrible kicking games, notoriously. Right. And he won six national championships. Like, it's not, Is it the thing that I am like most worried about costing Ohio State a championship? Not necessarily. But in a world where Ohio State strives to be the best in everything, I don't, I don't know that I would say that they are doing that with special teams the way they are currently constructed.

[B]

Okay, you're not gonna like this, man. This is odd. You're not gonna like this. I'm just looking at an Ohio State database. This is not us doing an open records request, but I'm looking at Ohio State's HR database from last year where they list the salaries of employees. So this is. It's actually like exactly a year ago. It's like September 30, 2024. I'm just, I'm just saying what is listed here, I'm not. This is not the end all be all. But I will say, for instance, Chip Kelly on here is listed at $2 million a year. Larry Johnson on here is listed at $1.4 million. Right. So it's representative Tim Hinton, who's a staffer who used to be a full time assistant coach and has been around for like since the earth, since Urban's first staff and is like important, sort of been filling a lot of gaps for them. Right. He's making like 183,000. Rob Keys is making $72,000 a year according to that.

[C]

I would have guessed 80.

[B]

Yeah, that's a little shy of a million dollars. So like it is. Money is representative of how focused you are on something. Right. So this is now an interesting conversation mean of like, like how people are using those staff positions from a salary standpoint, which, which determines the quality of person you could get outside of those top, those 10 full assistant jobs. I would imagine that like there's bonuses for making the playoff or for what I would imagine Rob Keys is making more in the end than $72,000 a year. But we're just saying like that's in comparison to Chip Kelly and Rob Johnson and Larry Johnson, everybody else on that staff. That's how he's listed. And it's, you know, because if you.

[C]

Ask Ryan Day, because Ryan Day would say that the OC has to be the head coach of the offense, even though he is obviously Ryan Day's hand in that map. Patricia is very much the head coach of the defense. And I'd imagine he would Say that Rob Keys is the head coach. And I like, I feel like I'm not trying to bag on Rob Keys. It's more like the idea Rob Keys is the head coach of special teams and you pay him 10% of what you pay your other head coaches.

[B]

Right. I, I don't even know anymore if, if there is a limit because that was one of the things. When Ohio State like had Parker Fleming and Corey Dennis, it was like, well, I don't know. Their staff payroll overall was still pretty high. And if you want to pay your coordinators $2 million, you might have to guy, have a guy on staff he's making in the 200s, like to balance that out a little bit. Even in a place like Ohio State, there still is not quite unlimited funds. So what do you think of the idea that, that they have different people in charge of different units though? Because I, I especially, I mean I don't think there's a right answer. Full time, like Lavar, Lavar woods, special teams coordinator like that on the Iowa staff making 700,000. I would imagine he is in charge of every special teams unit then. Right? That's what he's working on. So he's in charge of all both returns, both coverages. Like he's in charge of everything. Do you like that better or do you like, like Rob Keys is running the meeting but James Laurinaitis, you're in charge of trying to figure out what we're going to do on coverage here. Like what do you think is preferable? Is there one that's preferable or just make it work for you?

[C]

I would probably, I would middle it probably between those two ideas. Like I like the idea of it's the same thing as like Matt Patricia is the defensive coordinator but like he has a linebackers coach and a safety scotch and a quarterback's coach. Like working underneath him. So you can have a special teams coordinator and then underneath him have various position coaches heading up the specific units of special teams. I think that's fine. One of the things that Ryan Day said last year when he made the switch away from a full time special teams coordinator to having the position coaches do it is that. And it's a germ trestle idea. Like it inspires more buy in among the players potentially. Right. It's like I'm a, I'm a young linebacker for the Buckeyes and James Laurinitis is our, is our punt coverage coach and I'm going to impress the hell out of this guy with how hard I play on punk coverage and hopes that it makes gets me a better spot in the linebacker room like that to me makes sense. But I still think you can have somebody who specializes in special teams overseeing the entire operation above all those people and setting the agenda for that phase of the game.

[B]

If you're hiring lavar Woods. Lavar woods is in charge of everything though. He's not going to let James Lornitis decide how they're covering something. You okay with that?

[C]

But you can still. It's not like what's the fundamental difference between that and Matt Patricia saying we're running this play but James Laurinitis, you're going to coach the guys how to run this play.

[B]

I guess it's to me it's a matter of. Because if you have a full time guy that you're paying a million dollars a year and he's not and he's the special teams coach and you're paying him that much. If he's not in charge of every little detail. I don't think he has enough to do because he doesn't have anything to do on offense or defense. Like what's he doing in practice if he's not running every little detail. James Laurinaitis can be detailed on this coverage unit because then the rest of the time he's got to deal with his linebackers. This is a portion of his job. I don't know. We're now we're. We're pitching Lamar woods on the job. Like I'm just. I, I don't.

[C]

I'm looking it up but I'm looking at the football scoop list of highest paid special teams coordinators. So woods is the highest paid guy who's like solely and special teams coordinator at 775 000. Nebraska has one that makes 625 and Arizona State has one that makes $450,000. And I don't actually. I don't know if these teams are actually going to go to special teams. Right. I'm just reading this list of people but like there are programs that are at the very least investing six figures in their special teams operation and some that are paying upwards of $300,000 for somebody who only does that job.

[B]

I just would like to note that you are advocating the forensication of Ohio State football just so we know what we're talking about here.

[C]

Yeah. Why not? Why like Iowa in this particular instance? Yeah. They're like mimicking Iowa and special teams is a great idea.

[B]

I. This is like this is a continuing conversation now. I feel like we have to research this a little bit more and dive into this a little bit more because I think it's an interesting conversation.

[A]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly, macaroni and cheese. Modelo and College Football College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action looking to reward full time fans who give their all for their team and their school week in and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace them up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer. Sponsor of the college football program Playoff Modelo.

[B]

I think I would you rather though, do you think if James lauritis is spending 12% of his time and mental energy thinking about special teams and 88% on linebackers and defense, would you rather have him focusing on 100% on defense or if Lavar woods is here and he's the guy but like Lauren, I just still has a little something to do with one area now it's now he's 5% so he still has 95% of the defense. There's only so much time and energy in a day. Do you like James Laurinitis and Matt Guerreri for instance, being taken away a little bit from defense to focus on this to get buy in to stay connected? Or do you think there's an opportunity cost associated with that that would be gained by hiring somebody who's more overseeing everything?

[C]

I mean there's certainly nothing that's happened, especially with the defense that makes me think that there's like something amiss with, with time spent on, on the defensive side or even the offensive side of the ball. But like the a setup where those position coaches say for instance they are spending 15 of their time on special teams now could be in a position where they're still helping out but they're spending 5% of their time on it. Like yeah, that sounds great. Like the more, the more time spent on defense the better. But it can't come at the sack. Like the sacrifice of poor special teams play obviously. So again, like I'm trying to like land somewhere in the middle I guess of what you offer, but interesting.

[B]

I don't think, I don't think I'm quite where you are, but I would be, I'm not sure what would be holding me back. It's like, well if it's just money, it's like it's Ohio State, they have plenty, might do whatever they want. And then it's like, well I guess.

[C]

That is, that is a no small consideration though, right? Because Ohio State is at the top, top end of what it's paying its players too. Right. So like, and that money all comes from the same place. So I don't want to be dismissive of that. Like Ohio State does have a lot of money. But for instance, like Iowa pays 700000 for a full time special teams coordinator. It does not pay nearly what Ohio State plays for talent. So there's a give and take with everything. But even in that world, I still think Ohio State can probably stand to spend more than 75000 on the special teams coordinator.

[B]

Okay, so let's, let's, let's inform the people on like who is doing what just because I do think it's a little bit interesting. So kickoff coverage, Ryan Day said that is James Laurinaitis, the full time linebackers coach who's in charge of that. You said that's Laurinaitis was in charge of that last year also. I don't know. That seems pretty good to have the linebackers coach who knows linebackers, who knows safeties, you know like what you know who's in there covering kicks? Well, Peyton Pierce is in there covering kicks. Aaron Scott, who's not a linebacker but James Laurinaitis is familiar with him, is in there covering six. That seems like a good person to be in charge of that.

[C]

Yeah, I think that makes sense. Like Riley Pettigohn I think is there too. Yeah, but it's, it's like primarily back seven defensive guy. So I think that very much makes sense.

[B]

Kick off return is Nate Ebner, who was a rugby player at Ohio State, a walk on at Ohio State, a special teams player who did not play offense or defense, was a full time special teams player at Ohio State who got drafted in the sixth round of the NFL draft based off only playing special teams, which I don't even know how many times that's happened in the history of the league. And I can remember his agent like before that draft, tell me like, oh yeah, Nate Ebner is going to get drafted. You should do a story on him. And I was like, what? He doesn't even play. Like he was a safety who like literally never played a snap of defense. And then he got drafted by the Patriots and was a special teams ace in the NFL and won super bowl rings with the Patriots. And. And it is now difficult to track the 18 people who aren't full time assistants who have roles at Ohio State. Nate Ebner's official title is quality control special teams. But I will say, having covered him and then I did do a story on him, and then I was like, this guy might get drafted. And then I look like a genius. I saw him in the facility like two weeks ago. I was walking in behind him and I was like, is that Nate Ebner? I was like, why is he here? And then it's like, oh, because he's in charge of kick return. You seem to like the idea that Nate Ebner is in charge of kick return.

[C]

Yeah, I think maybe Ohio State is like grooming him to be their next special teams coordinator, which I think would be great. Yeah. But yeah, that's cool. He was, he was around last year a little bit in the preseason too, because I remember last year I was asking Ryan Day some stuff about their QB sneak and because it was like tush push adjacent. But what they actually did was like, talk to some rugby people and obviously Nate. Yeah, there's a lot about rugby. So like he, he gave him a hand in figuring that out too last year, but yeah, now he's doing special team stuff.

[B]

All right, punt coverage is Matt Guerreri the safeties coach? Again, this is a lot of. I mean, punt coverage always have gunners who, who are often receivers. Right. They're either corners or receivers. They're super fast guys. Two guys, one on each side, on the outside. But there's a lot of secondary guys involved in that. The idea of Matt Carrera being in charge of this.

[C]

Yeah, I think I'm just looking at special team snaps. So I think like Devin Sanchez is one of their gunners and Jalen McLean might be the other one. Yes. So they've only punted eight times, but the guys who have played every punt are Peyton Pierce, Jelani Thurman, and the long snapper, John Furman. And then Devin Sanchez, Jayla McLean, the Punter, Joe McGuire, Arvel Reese, Sonny Styles, Kaden Curry and C.J. hicks have played seven punt coverage snaps.

[B]

Okay. And then punt returned is Rob Keys the special teams coach. So. So that makes sense if he's going to be the actual overall arching special teams coach. But then that makes for an interesting week because, like, that's probably the thing that went the most wrong at Washington. Brandon Innisfumbled a punt, so. But it. But. But now that's. Are you saying Heartline and. And Bailey were in charge of punt return last year?

[C]

Yeah, I think, I think it was like, it was like return game. So they, they both, I don't know if they split up the duties or they each did punt return and kick return together. But yeah, like, it was returning coverage is kind of the way that was explained last year. But yeah, it was Bailey and Heartline on return.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. And then field goal. Kicking the field goal is Tyler Bowen, the offensive line coach, which also seems to make sense because kicking the field goal is mostly about blocking it. So that makes sense. Right then. Yeah, no one's blocking anything. And then field goal coverage. Field goal block is Sam McGrath, according to Ryan Day, who is the assistant linebackers coach. And Ryan Day, like, noted that, for instance, Washington tried to run a fake field goal in that game. And it Jed Fish had indicated in his postgame news conference, they thought they saw something. They thought they had a look off Ohio State and that would allow them to successfully fake a field goal. And like, it didn't come close to working. It looked bungled on Washington's end. But Ryan Day is saying, like, hey, if they, if that works and the result is like they score a touchdown off it or they get a first down and then go in for a touchdown, that changes that game. So I do think it's true. Like, you don't want to be dismissive of that unit for Ohio State did what it needed to do in that moment.

[C]

Yeah. And if you look to, like, who's on the field typically for field goal block, it's basically just a starting defense. So which I think is probably a smart plan because you just protect yourself. Like, you could be hyper aggressive, I guess, in trying to block a field goal. I actually don't know the last time I say blocked a field goal. I know they blocked a few punts, but, yeah, they were ready for that. That was good. Sam McGrath, I think came, he came when Jim Knowles came, but he wasn't at Oklahoma State. I think he was at Duke, where McErary was before he came over in 2022.

[B]

Okay. So I don't know. Like, this is, I, I, I kind of like it. Like, we're, we're trying to delve into this. Were you. Oh, this is the other thing I want to mention about Sam McGrath. Can I just mention this very quickly? He did come from Duke and I'm assuming he met his wife while he was at Duke because he is married to Abby Johnston, who is an Upper Arlington native and was an Olympic diver. And I, I covered her at the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She won A medal. I think she won a silver medal.

[C]

Awesome.

[B]

And. And they are married. So like, that's a, that's a wonderful thing. Yeah, she won a silver medal in the synchronized 3 meter springboard competition. So now here they are, they're back in Columbus. So like, that's extra reason, like, isn't this lovely? And I just would like to note when I was going over there to cover the Olympics in 2012, the great Rusty Miller, former Associated Press writer, covered Ohio State for a very long time. Good friend, he's family friends with the Johnson family. Is like, hey, I know this young woman who's going to the Olympics. And so then I got to. He helped me set up the interview and now look at him. They have kids, happy. They're a happy Ohio State family. But they met at Duke and then they actually have another guy on the staff, Gunner Daniel, who is not mentioned as being in charge of anything. But I will just say this. He, his title is program assistant special teams. It's his first year at Ohio State and he's a former college football long snapper, so I assume he's the long snapper expert, which again, if you're going to have 18 people on staff. I like having a long snapper expert on staff.

[C]

I think he like works with the kickers too.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

He like, if you go to like Ohio State camps in the summer and there's usually like a handful of kickers and punters, like, he's often out there with those guys and the long snappers. So. Yeah, the actual, the actual specialist part of special teams, I think is.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is where he, a lot of his energy goes. Yeah.

[B]

So. So one of the things that we were talking about, I thought we would talk about this more. We're not going to go too long on this because of our Lavar woods debate, which I think is interesting.

[C]

Sorry.

[B]

Is the field position battle for Ohio State that it appears to be losing. And there are some field position stats. There's one that Brian from O [e-mail] that is sort of net field position value, which is your starting field position compared to your opponent starting field position. And Ohio State is 100th in the country in that bill. So I think the reason again that it matters is that Ohio State doesn't believe it should be and is not willing to accept being a hundredth in the nation in anything. Correct. But also small sample size and some of the things they do well can conspire to make them statistically not look as good in something like this. Can we explain the field position thing.

[C]

Well, part of it is they don't, they don't actually. So like if you, if a team, if you get a touchback on a kickoff, right, you start from the 25, they don't actually end up starting a lot of their drives from the 25 because teams don't kick off that much against them because they don't score. So. So Ohio State opponents have only kicked the ball off nine times this year. Three of them have been touchbacks, four of them have been fair caught, two of them have been returned. And then the field position thing is like primarily a Texas game conversation because in the Texas game, Ohio State started 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 drives inside its own 10 yard line. But the other thing is like the defense is very good and it stopped Texas on downs twice inside the 10 yard line. So it gets the ball inside the tent like so. So I think when you look at those numbers, you have to take some of that into account. But when Ohio State does have the opportunity to return a punt, for instance, like they don't really do anything with it. They've only returned five of the 20 all year. And like the, like two times they've had a good return. On one time they fumbled the ball and then on kickoff return they've returned it twice. And one was for three yards because Brandon the ball bounce and the other one was for 17 yards because it was the opening kickoff of the Grambling State game. And I would imagine Ohio State figured that was probably the only time Grambling was going to kick off on that game. So why not bring it out?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So there are limited opportunities. Two. Two things I guess like conspiring against Ohio State in the field position battle, limited opportunities in kickoff return because the defense doesn't let anybody score. And I think poor punt return compounded by the defense stopping teams often deep in Ohio State territory and causing the offense to start with bad field position. I think Ohio State would take.

[B]

You're terrible for your opening your starting field position stats. Goal line stands, I don't think.

[C]

Excellent. He's like, hey.

[B]

He's like, you know, it's like we don't want to stop these guys at the one because it is gonna kill our net field position rating. Let him score. Let's let him, let's let him score and try and return this thing to the 35. It's the one yard line we don't want to get. So. So there is some of that.

[C]

Can I mention one more thing? Sorry. Is it just as it pertains to net pump, net field position. So Ohio State has only punted eight times, which is not a lot. Obviously it's tied for fifth viewers in the country. But only one of those punts has been inside the 20, like pinned a team inside the 20. Meanwhile, seven of the opponent punts against Ohio State have pinned Ohio state inside the 20. So that obviously flips it too.

[B]

So like you and I, if we're not careful, we're now going to have a 28 minute cam Johnston conversation about the best player on Ohio State's 2015 team, but at its best in that era, Urban Meyer. And before they changed some of the fair catch rules on kickoff and that kind of thing. But Urban Meyer wanted to angle kicks, angle punts, pin people deep, use the kicking game as a weapon. And I think Ohio State did that as effectively as anybody in the country. For a stretch there at Ohio State, but particularly like with the punt game, because the punt game you can still do that. The kick game, it's like, oh, we're going to try to like kick it to the three yard line on the sideline, not kick it out of bounds, but make them catch it. And they can't fair catch it because you used to only be able to do that in the end zone. Right. And you can, you couldn't fair catch a kick. You could kneel in the end zone, but if you kick it angled to the three yard line and then you have a precise kick coverage, you could tackle people at the 12 yard line all day and Ohio State would do that. So you can't do that on kick anymore because you just fair catch it. But on punt you can still do that. But I think one of the things is all the opportunities where Ohio State maybe is at the, is it midfield or at the opponent's 47 yard line and this is a chance to angle a punt and try to pin somebody inside the five, they just go for it.

[C]

Yeah, that happens a lot. Yeah, I don't actually, I don't think their kick coverage or punt coverage is bad. They let the one get out against Washington, but the other four kickoff returns that a team has actually tried against Ohio state have been 15 yards, 14 yards, 18 yards and 12 yards. And so that's good. And then the, yeah, the punt coverage thing I think is more about having a good punter than it is having a good or bad punt coverage team. Like they don't, I don't think Joe McGuire is like punted all that well this year. He doesn't have a huge leg. And the guy that does have a huge leg is Nick McLarty, who they don't really seem confident enough to to use yet. So like flipping the field has been a major weapon for Ohio State in the past. It's just not one at the moment.

[A]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly, Macaroni and cheese Modelo and College Football College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action looking to reward full time fans who give their all for their team and their school week in and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace them up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer, sponsor of the College Football Playoff. Modelo.

[B]

It and they have so many other weapons. It's interesting here because again, the standard is high. They want to be the best at everything, but there is a tiny bit of being good at the other things actually does contribute to them maybe being not quite as good here. Ryan Day was mad and it could have hurt him that after they finally scored to take the lead against Washington at the end of the first half, they kicked off and Adam Muhammad returned it to the 41, to the Washington 41. And you go back and you watch that kickoff, there's not really a missed tackle. I don't know that you're 100% sure that like guys are ridiculously out of their lanes. Aaron Scott, who he cited, we can talk about like the next kickoff that mattered. He came down and made a tackle. He winds up, he still gets down there pretty fast, but he's sort of on the opposite side of the field from where Muhammad returns it. So he sort of is too far wide to really make an impact on the play. Peyton Pierce is kind of there and looks like maybe he has a chance to make the tackle. But then he does get blocked at the last second and it wasn't Adam Muhammad didn't run through tackles. There weren't obvious, I don't think obvious, huge mistakes. And then Jaden Fielding made a tackle and Ryan Day was kind of making jokes of like he, he, he sort of slowly got run over. But he did make the tackle and Ryan Day said he's made. Jaden Filling as a kicker has made two tackles of the six kickoffs this year, which he does not like that ratio. That means Something else is going wrong. But that is an example like that is it that they took over them with a minute left and they should have been at the 25 yard line, at the 41 yard line. They got a, they got 16 extra yards when they're in a one minute drill situation. And then they got bailed out because Kaden Curry blew up a screen and got a sack on second and five. And then Washington was just like, well we're dead now. The heck with it. But that is an example where that had a chance to really matter, that you're giving up an extra first down and a half of field position and you enhanced Washington's chances of being able to try to kick a, a field goal at the end of the half on that return. And Ryan, they didn't like it.

[C]

No, he didn't like it and he didn't like it was a Grambling game. I think he said he was talking like hidden yardage in the punt game. Right. Because Grambling punted a bunch there and they're like too many punts going over guys heads and like bouncing. And that's the kind of stuff I think it's more like you can talk about like, you know, when the time comes for Ohio State to make a crucial field goal, will it happen? I don't really think that's what the special teams conversation is about because that's either like you have a good kicker or you don't. Yeah. Or and even like the, the Joe McGuire conversation, it's like his strength is not bombing the ball, but it's more about the coverage operations or the coverage and return operations. And again I think the coverage is fine minus that one. And the return operation just like, is not crisp like they, they. The one that that bounced them ended up being a three yard return was like at the end of the half and Ohio State just ended up taking a knee anyway. But there were like 30 seconds left if I say actually had the ball with 25, like maybe they would have tried something in that game or try to at least like play for a field goal or something. Right. So like you can't let the ball bounce in front of you. You can't let the ball bounce over your head. Like that's the kind of stuff that kills them on special teams. And this makes you question like how much time and effort do you actually put into this? Yeah.

[B]

And I do think precision is a hallmark of what they do. It's certainly been a hallmark of the defense so far this year. It's, it's it's again, all the words we've been using, selflessness and maturity and you know, working in a comprehensive fashion. Like, it's all, there's a lot of precision into how those guys, what Matt Patricia asks of them and then what they deliver. And then I think again it was like, what, what is Julian saying? Doing. What is this past game doing? Like, there's a lot of precision to that for a young guy and they maybe need to up the precision in the run game slightly a little bit, but I think the offensive line is playing it. There's precision through this roster and of the three units, the least precise is special teams. Now it's, I mean, it's one of those things again, it's like, oh, special. It is by far the least important in the modern era with the way these guys are playing. And I. But one of the parts of the, like the follow up with Ryan Day is like, as he continues to talk about slower pace of play, fewer possessions, more situational football. You are, I think, increasing the importance of special teams when you only have six possessions. Because it's not like, ah, well, we screwed up that punt, but we had 12 possessions and we threw a bunch of deep ball touchdowns and we won 52, 35. And so if you had one goofy special teams play, who cared? It's like, well, they had six possessions against Washington and fumbling the punt cost them one. That, that cost them like 15 of their supposed to be possessions in that game. So I do think the structure, how they're playing makes it matter more and it is the thing they're the worst at.

[C]

Yeah, I just like the two things aren't. You could quibble with the way that Ohio State chooses to play. Sure. I don't know that I have much of an issue with it or at least like, I get it, like, and there's a means to an end, which is like to do what they did last year in the postseason. But if you're going to do that and then acknowledge that it, it just decreases the margin for error in situational moments, then you should divert more resources to being good in the situational moments. And they don't.

[B]

And it's, I think this program, top to bottom, side to side, wall to wall, floor to ceiling, has a pretty good handle on what it is, what it wants to be, how it's going about it. Right. I mean, I think there are fewer holes maybe than there used to be. I don't think there's a ton of roster holes. I don't think there's a ton of staff holes. You know, again, anytime you're talking about Ohio State as a program, they need to beat Michigan. So like, they need to make sure that they're approach mentally, they're approached schematically in that game is where it needs to be. But you know, there's, there's still a little bit of a red zone conversation. But like, even in that red zone conversation, I think you and I have said, like, there's a lot I think that we like in the process and Ryan Day still talks about, you know, we had a, we had a sack we couldn't take in the red zone in the last game. We had a couple penalties. We can't have those in the red game in the, in the red zone. But I think like the general in terms of like overall approach and execution, the thing that is the most questionable right now is special teams generally. And it's why we just spent 45 minutes talking about it. I don't think it is a fatal flaw. It is not the thing that is waiting to ruin Ohio State's national championship opportunities, but I think it's the thing they probably could improve on the most between now and the national championship game.

[C]

Yeah, it's just like the thing as you assess the program, as you said, like top to bottom and feel really good about a lot of it, the one thing that sticks out a little bit is like, is that makes you say, like, is that, is that as good as it can be? And I think it's special teams. Yeah. Yeah. Which again, like, I'm not gonna change my win loss record for Ohio State based on it, but it's just like, I think it does get frustrating at times for fans to like watch them give away yards on punt return and kick return. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then it's interesting. I mean, again, like, and no coach is ever gonna be like, ah, we don't care that much.

[C]

Yeah, that's true. No. Yeah. I think Ryan Day cares. I just don't, like, I don't think.

[B]

It is good too.

[C]

He's like, it took him a while to figure out the defense and he's got to figure it out. Like, it took him a while to figure out like the dynamics between himself as a head coach and the oc. Like, I think he's got a really good feel for that now. And now it's like he's got to figure out the third phase of the game, I guess. And it's like they're not, they're not lost. I just think they can be Like a little better. Like in the search for enhancing everything in the program, which Ryan Day is always on, on a mission to do. Like that is something that probably can be enhanced a little bit.

[B]

And he said he's involved. Like he, he was talking about, well, this person does this and this person does this. And he was like, well, I'm involved in that too. Right. So it's not, he's not skipping that meeting.

[C]

Right.

[B]

The only offensive line, defensive line, quarterbacks, coordinators. He didn't say the head coach was excused. The head coach is in there. Right. So he does care. And that was one of those. The, the first time he thought about giving up offensive play calling. That was one of the things, like, well, then I could be more involved in special teams. That's what, that's like what Urban Meyer was. So I, I don't think it is a lack of focus or a lack of valuing it, but I think we just outlined for 45 minutes, maybe some opportunities. Okay. Worth it. Was that too much special teams?

[C]

It was a longer conversation than I thought it was going to be. But I, I did also derail it for 20 minutes.

[B]

No, no, I think, I think it's okay. I think it's good. I think it's good for people to get a handle on it. I think it's good for people to have a better handle on what they're doing. So now you can turn to your neighbor and be like, that's Sam McGrath at work right there. Right.

[C]

So people know that.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe do an Olympic diver. Okay. That's it for now. Premium substack show coming. Oh, you know what else is coming? It's here. Landis. You know, fall is here, right? You're aware that fall is here. Yeah. That means it's time to go. Time to go. Check out roback.com R H O B A C K fall line hoodies, quarter zips. It's like a game day collection. Get like, I just keep always talking about that quarter zip with the stripe. It's like a regal looking stripe. And people love the Ohio State stripe on the uniform. Put the stripe on your chest, right. And it's not like it. You know, if you want a shirt that has like a bunch of buckeyes on it or a bunch of buckeye leads, like they have stuff like that too. But if you just want like a nice, maybe like a gray or like a scarlet or like, you know, like a kind of a neutral quarter zip but with a stripe, go check it out. So I think it's the thing I like about it is they have like the, the fancy little patterns that are a little kind of like hidden to the eye, but you know, it's in there. But then they have just like the stripe is a, it's a regal. It's a mature stripe. This is a mature team. It's a mature team. This is a mature wardrobe. Now sometimes you just want like a something with a big Brutus buckeye head on it. I get it. And I bet a lot of you have that. But sometimes you want to reflect like, Caleb Downs is a mature football player. I think Caleb Downs would wear this kind of quarter zip with a mature stripe on it. Right.

[C]

He is a, a Roback spokesperson, I guess.

[B]

Yeah. Just another one of the things that we have in common with Caleb Downs. Among them, among the many football savants. Rollback pitch. The three of us. R H O-B-A C K.com put in bad 20. That's our code. You'll get 20 off your first order. Bad 20. 20 off your first [e-mail]. all right. Much more coming this week, Bill. We'll have our Ohio State, Minnesota picks on Thursday. We'll have our national picks on Friday. We will have a post game show after the primetime game on Saturday night on YouTube. We certainly would hope you guys join us for that. But for now, thanks to you guys for being here. He's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice and that was the Bill and Doug show.