← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Inside Ohio State spring practice No. 4: Matt Patricia adjusting, how Buckeyes have an edge on Bama
01:08:34
Ohio State football held its fourth practice of spring on Thursday. Defensive coordinator Matt Patricia headlined the Buckeyes who spoke afterward, and Bill Landis and Doug Lesmerises zeroed in on what Patricia said about potential changes to the defense this season after losing seven starters.
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Visit lifelock.com Special offer terms apply. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lam Reese and Bill Landis after practice four for the Ohio State Buckeyes of spring football. We were there. We didn't get to watch on Thursday we get to talk to people. We talked to Matt Patricia, the defensive coordinator. We talked to linebacker Garrett Stover, we talked to cornerback Jermaine Matthews and we talked to new transfer defensive tackle James Smith. I would like to announce a retire. It is not my retirement. It is not Bill Rabinowitz's retirement. It is not Tim May's retirement as much as some people may want those things. But it is the retirement of a line of questioning and we can talk about it later. I'm done. I did what I needed to do. It served its purpose and now we will move forward. We can start with that Landis or we can talk about other things. Because I was getting nervous that I wasn't even get get my question in, in its final moments to Matt Patricia. But I did, I like interrupted him by accident in the middle of an answer to make sure I got it in. Because everybody is like Maddie P. Maddie P. That was like there's a lot of, there's a lot of urgency when you're talking to Maddie P. These days. Is there not? People have things to say, things they want to ask Maddie P. So We're
- [02:12]
C
a little FaceTime with Maddie P. He's very rich. He's very rich. It's good to know rich people.
- [02:18]
B
So it was, I mean, like you know, Matt, Patricia did a great job last year as the Ohio State's defense corner indisputably. But it was like, Matt, why did you stay here? And he's like, man, just don't want to move the family. And I wanted to just be like, what about the 1.5 million dollar raise? What 1.25 million dollar raise? Like, if you just love it here, just then just love it, love it for the same amount of money you made last year. There's just, it's fine. But like we just can't we live in the world about it a little bit? I guess. I'm sure he's, I'm sure it's true. He said, yeah, I think it is true. But Also, you're making $700,000 more than any defensive coordinator in America. And if you just love the malls, maybe you'd stay for three, Bill, not 3.75. So like, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But we also, we have to be a little realistic about it, don't we? Because he did say, like he had other offers. He has stuff out there.
- [03:14]
C
Yeah, I mean, you won't, you won't find the. Maddie P. Loves Columbus boy, wasn't he a swell guy to stick around for his love of Columbus story on, on Bill and Doug's platforms,
- [03:29]
B
find it elsewhere. Which is fine.
- [03:32]
C
He did a good job. He just eat. I'm not saying he was undeserving of the race. He was. He did an excellent job. If ever, if I'm ever doing a press conference after I get a 1.25 million dollar race, guess what I'm talking about.
- [03:42]
B
The cash.
- [03:46]
C
Yeah, I bought a boat.
- [03:49]
B
Yeah, there's a lot of construction in Columbus, but I could buy a boat. So that's why I stayed. So let's talk ball. Some interesting stuff about like guys in, guys out with the defense. I thought you had an interesting question about Orville Reese and his versatility last year and is there somebody like that yet on this defense? And like, kind of like then, if not, then what, what did you think of Matt Patricia's answer question?
- [04:16]
C
I mean, he kind of didn't. I guess he answered it. I, I, I, there's probably some truth in what he said. Like I, I am, I am a person who after the fourth spring, spring practice would like all of the schematic and personnel answers now, please. And like, I get that that's kind of what spring's not about, or at least not really what, what early spring is about. So he Said basically, like, we don't know yet. I'm sure in the back of his mind he has an idea, but he doesn't want to talk about that just yet because they're trying to whatever, work on hand placement and feet and all that stuff, and they haven't even really begun tackling yet. So they just have had pads on for, for two days now. So there, there wasn't an answer. I think, like when I asked that question that the two guys I had in my mind were Quay Russo and Christian Allegro, two transfers. I think you could probably include Riley Pettigohn and TJ Alford, two returning sophomores, in that conversation. And my assumption at the moment is, is that is they probably don't have that. Like the idea that you can go between a four down front and a five down front. Even spacing and odd spacing without having to substitute is quite the luxury. And Ohio State had it last year with Arvell Reese and they may have it this year. We'll see what happens. But you don't just look at the roster and say, like, that's the guy who's going to do it. That's who's going to unlock that for Ohio State. So I'm on the quest to try to figure that out. I think there'll be more information to glean in that regard when we talk with maybe like Larry Johnson and James Laurinaitis later in the spring. Even if it's just like, you know, Quay Russell's not doing any linebacker stuff. Well, like that, that's kind of a clue. Like. Or Christian Allegro is not doing any defensive line stuff. Those guys are Quays with the D lineman, Christians with the linebackers, and that's kind of what they're doing. It's like, okay, well then maybe if you were having the wrong conversation here about these guys. So trying to figure that out. But, but Matt Patricia on, on a. What's today? Thursday, 4th. After the fourth spring practice. Was not ready to kind of go down that road just yet.
- [06:18]
B
Matt Patricia making some comparisons between college and the NFL and saying, like, right. In OTAs and stuff in the NFL, there's maybe like a gradual progression into things. And he was saying like, you kind of go in college from winter workouts to pads on, like there's two. Two days, two practices of acclimation and then it's go time.
- [06:36]
C
Yes. Yeah. Which is kind of, it is kind of weird. It is like, I get it because you had. There's just such finite practice time in college that you just, you Want to get the pads on, you want to start playing football. But it is kind of strange when you think about it that way. And there's, there's more freedom in the summer now. Like they're not. But if they're not like officially designated OTAs or whatever in the same way that the NFL does. But like there, there are opportunities to do those things in the summer without pa. But I do think some of the stuff starts to come together. But yeah, spring football is not, I don't know, it's just like you, yeah, you kind of want to jump right into kind of molding young football players and not necessarily trying to throw the book at them in terms of everything you can do schematically especially.
- [07:22]
B
And I'm sure this is why Ohio State chooses to do it. But like the way Ohio State does it now with where Ohio State spring break falls academically, they always have two practices before spring break and then they're out for a week and then they come back. So it's like winter work workouts. Two non padded practices a week off and then you come back and you're in pads. And that's the week where that we're in right now. Right. And like that is like, like it's. Here we are, it's football. And he was talking about the idea of trying to find the balance of, at this time of year in college, are you teaching scheme or are you teaching fundamentals? And he said again to your question, we're working on fundamentals right now. So we fell into the trap that we fall into occasionally, which is we were podcasting for free. Stephen Means, the three of us, you and I and Steven Means, we did it, we did it inside for a while. And then Marcus Hartman, we caught up with him outside and we're podcasting with Marcus Hartman and it's just like
- [08:25]
C
we
- [08:25]
B
gotta, this ain't paying the bills. I'm not here. This is not pod friends. It's POD business. Although we love conversing with Steven Means and Marcus Hartman. So we were having these conversations about this and one of the things you said in one of those conversations was that you do think so the scheme really matters. And you, you said, one thing you said is you could see them just doing more personnel packages this year if they don't have sort of the inherent versatility in some of the players. And then the other thing you said was that you think Matt Patricia is a really good teacher, so please make some money for us. By now telling it for cash to this podcast and YouTube audience.
- [09:03]
C
I do think that's probably Matt Patricia's greatest strength, which is funny. Like, you know, given his reputation before he got to Ohio State, I don't know that you would assume that, but if you sort of like, take a step back from that and think, well, like you coach under Bill Belichick, like, they are the most detailed franchise in the NFL, like, like, of course you have to be an excellent teacher, I think, to thrive in a place like that. And some of that is informed by Matt Patricia talking a lot about that when he was first introduced to us last year. I think, like, the idea of coming to this level and coaching guys at this stage in their football development was really enticing to him because you can really kind of get hands on and, and, and into the nitty gritty of just the finite detail or, yeah, the minute details of, of playing football. And, and I think he's really good with that. And I think he's good with that, like, across the board, even. Like James Smith we talked to on Thursday as well, the transfer defensive lineman from Alabama was, was talking about Matt Patricia, and he said it's kind of crazy how much Matt Patricia knows about every position on the defense and how he can coach every position on the defense. And I don't know. You know, I think a lot of good football coaches can probably figure it out no matter which position group you throw them into, but that ability to roam around and speak the language of the different spots on the defense and get guys to understand it at a pretty high level, I, I do think is an incredibly important skill for a coach. And, and Patricia seems to have that. And, and a lot of the guys we've talked to over the last year when they're sort of gushing about their relationship with Matt Patricia, I think it, I think it stems from that there's, there's just a lot of hands on, sort of like intimate coaching from the guy who's running the entire defense that I'm, I'm, I'm just not sure happens a lot at a lot of places because that's such a big job and there's so much on your plate. But Matt Patricia really does seem to relish that part of the job. And I think because of that, you saw a defense that was incredibly detailed last year and, and I would imagine will be so again this year, even if maybe some of the talent is not quite as high end as it was in 2025.
- [11:04]
B
Right. There are people who have PhDs, and some of them are researchers, and they're in the lab and they're kind of on their own and some of them are professors and they're out interacting with students on a daily basis. And like, again, you know, I think we're past drawing comparisons between Matt Patricia and Jim Knowles. But if Jim Knowles was a mad scientist, like, Matt Patricia is a professor. And. And when you're a professor, you got the tweed jacket and you got the little patches on the sleeves, and students can come down and talk to you after class and maybe you have office hours, right? And then, like, I don't know if you're one of those kind of professors. You go out, maybe you see them at the bar and like, you buy a drink for somebody. Gotta be careful. And like. But you're right, you're like, yeah, I'm like, I'm. I'm part of this, right? I just. In the lab. And so I think we have proof of that. And I just. It's. It's interesting. I. We're going to write about this at the substack. Go, go over there.
- [11:59]
C
Huh?
- [12:01]
B
So much stuff over there. Bill and Doug o. I shoot substack.com we had a pro Day notebook that went up Thursday morning. We're going to write about Iron Buckeyes. We're going to write about offensive line continuity. We're going to write about, like, how many new players they have, because people keep bringing it up and bringing it up. But I do think it's interesting for Matt Patricia. They lost seven defensive starters from last year, and a lot of the guys that are going to fill important roles weren't even on the team last year because of the number of guys they added in the portal and that. I think he has to sort of understand their fundamentals and understand them as a teacher and teach them almost before he gets to like. And now how do we use them in the scheme? And that seems to be very clearly like, where they are right now. I'm Lear students. And then it's like, well, do you have an Arvell Reese? It's like, well, I know I don't have a. Like a. Somebody who's as skilled as Arvell Reese, but, like, let me see what these guys can do. Because did not. Did he not have an answer about that today that he sort of said, what I've always done is adjust to what my guys can do. Right. That's how he. Yeah, that's how he schemes up defense.
- [13:05]
C
Yeah, that was another question that I asked this because I. I'm just a little. I don't think we're going to see a defense on the field this fall that looks drastically different from what we saw last year. But there could be things here and there that you might have to tweak just based on what you have personal wise. So I just asked him sort of in his past, how fluid has he been with that, like, year to year? I think I said, like, do you let the personnel speak to you before you decide on anything? And he said, like, yeah, you kind of have to. And he used it. The comparison of the NFL where, you know, he was at the Patriots most years, they were picking late. Sometimes there weren't, maybe weren't quite as good. They were picking early. So, like, you get, you know, access to different players, different positions, different skill sets, and, you know, it's. It's quite a different puzzle sort of year to year. And you do have to lean into strengths. Like, you're not every, I mean, every coach says it, right? You're not gonna ask guys to do things they're not good at. So you, you, you have a vision for your roster build, and I think Ohio State has that, but you still don't really know until you start getting in practice and kind of getting your hands on guys. So they're very much, I think, in that. In that space now. And I think. So they'll practice again on Saturday. Typically that's a, A scrimmage day. There'll be a couple more scrimmage type days before the spring game. So I think, I think that process starts to get expedited a little bit here, like, like moving forward from today. But up until this point, they've had two practices without pads and two practices with pads where they weren't tackling to the ground. So it's still a lot of kind of like, whatever, let's get to know each other kind of practices before we start diving in on stuff.
- [14:39]
B
So we do a monthly zoom call. We didn't quite do it every month when things were getting a little crazy, but over on our sub stack page, if you are like the top pay to be on the top tier, we call it the bad tier. You get like sort of a personalized zoom call with us where we talk about some stuff and we want it. We want to give, like, bonus for those people who pay extra, you get more bonus stuff. So we had a call recently where we drafted, like, the best NFL players of the Ryan Day era. Right? We, I drafted, you drafted our intern, Nick was there, and then some of the other substack people, those top tier subscribers, and One of the thing we were talking about Pete Warner. Pete Warner got drafted in our draft and we were talking about the idea that I said Pete Werner to me was the player as a Buckeye who I had the most difficult time getting a handle on how good he was. And you said, I knew how good he was. I don't know so hard about you. And I was like, well, then why did you abandon me and stop working with me in the middle of Pete Warner's career? And you stopped telling me what to think of Pete Warner. But. But the thing that you were saying about Pete Warner is that. And this was very confusing to me, like rip to the bullet. The most confusing and actually sort of unused position group other than what was the Jim Knowles one that never. The Jack.
- [15:55]
C
The Jack slash Leo.
- [15:56]
B
Yeah, I've been to the. The Ben and Jerry's factory in Vermont and they give you a little tour there. You've been there? You've been there?
- [16:07]
C
I didn't go to the factory, but I went to, like, their shop in Burlington. Yeah. Yeah.
- [16:11]
B
So at that, at the little thing we do, the tour, they have a graveyard at the Ben and Jerry's factory where they have the, the gravestones for the dead ice cream flavors. And you can go through and be like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Like, they don't make that one anymore. I would like a graveyard for dead Ohio State positions. It might just be the Bullet and the Jack, but here's my roundabout.
- [16:35]
C
H back, H back, H back.
- [16:37]
B
Yeah, no, we can do full back, frankly, right? I mean, like, we can. We can kill all kinds of positions.
- [16:46]
C
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- [17:21]
A
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- [17:54]
B
Pete Warner was two things at once. And, and like that's what you're saying. Like just, it's okay. So he could be a strong safety or a Sam linebacker but you didn't have to take him off the field. That was your point, right? That's part of Pete Warner's skill set that made him a second round pick in the NFL. And so it was like is he the Bullet or is he the Sam? It's like he's Pete Warner should have called it the Pete. Were Arval Reese and Caleb Downs at times last year playing two positions that Arvell Reese is like he's a, he's a linebacker and he's an edge rusher and sometimes Caleb Downs is a safety and he's a linebacker. Right. That there were there times that maybe positionally where they lined up what they were asked to do in a certain situation, maybe first down versus third down, maybe run run down versus pass down, whatever where, where Caleb Downton, Arvell Reese were actually doing two different things. But there wasn't a positional name change because it's just the Arvel and the Caleb. But that we could see play out in actual packages in actual guys running on and off the field in order to do those things that Caleb and Arvel did on their own. The same way that Pete Warner was one guy playing two positions sometimes where Arvell and Caleb actually may be playing two positions.
- [19:11]
C
I think so. And there was like an interplay between the two. I think a lot of the time where Ohio State would move, would move Arvell down to get into that five man front and it's, it is a, it's a five one with the one linebacker but there's like kind of Caleb hovering down a little closer to the line of scrimmage to kind of pick up the, some of the space that you've not given up by moving your will linebacker down down to the line of scrimmage. So I think probably in this, in the safety room there are guys who can do some of that stuff and you don't have to sub. We'll see. It sounds like they have probably four safeties that they think can play with Jayla McLean back to two transfers, Terry Moore and Earl Little and then Leroy Roker. So there could be some, some substitution and packaging there. I, I think what's more interesting is what happens at that outside Linebacker, slash, edge spot. Because I just. I don't know, like, Christian Allegro played some up on the line at Wisconsin, but not a ton. And Quay Russo played some off the ball at Alabama, but not a ton. And I don't. I don't know that either guy like, like wants to be two. Two positions at once. So that, that's. That's what I'm interested in in terms of. Of the packaging. Like the. Does the five down front for Ohio State this year actually just have five defensive linemen? Where, like, last year it was four defensive linemen and Arvell Reese. So. And I think with some of the depth they potentially have, maybe it will be just like, actually five defensive linemen out there.
- [20:42]
B
So that's interesting that instead of, like, maybe you. You keep your four defensive linemen on the field, but on third, Nate, you bring in Quay Russo to line up outside attack all the way that Arvel did. But then it's like, so who are you? Like, are you. Are you taking a linebacker off the field like you said? Like, you're a 51 there, but maybe Earl Little slides over and get a little more linebackery or Jalen McLean comes down as a little more linebackery, or would you even, like, take Earl Little off the field? And now you have Peyton Pearson, Garrett Stover in the game at linebacker and Quay Russo as your edge guy, and you're like, you make three. Yeah. All of a sudden you're making three substitutions on third down that last year, like, other than when they went to dime on pretty somewhat rare occasion. Right.
- [21:33]
C
The. The only exception that I can remember was, like, that Purdue game when they started to use Riley Pettigon on third down. They were like, kind of packaging things in that game, but otherwise, yeah, they weren't like, they weren't taking Arvell and Sunny off the field really, so.
- [21:47]
B
But it feels like what Matt Patricia says he's doing right now is I'm teach, we're doing fundamentals, and I'm getting to know these guys. And then once I figure out what they can do, then I'll figure out what the scheme's gonna be, how much we might have to substitute. If I do substitute, who is it, who's in, who's out, who's on the edge, who's down, who's back. And it would make sense that he doesn't have a handle on that right now because they lost seven defensive starters and Earl Little and Terry Moore and Christian Allegro and James Smith and Quay Russo. All these guys are new to this and he has to figure out what they can and can't do. John Walker. Ye.
- [22:23]
C
Yeah, yeah, John Walker. But. And even like the, the linebackers who I think what have some versatility who are back are sophomores who don't play a lot.
- [22:31]
B
Right.
- [22:31]
C
Like Riley Pettigan and TJ because it's not like. I think the one thing we can assume is like, they're not going to put Peyton Pierce at the fence event.
- [22:38]
B
Right.
- [22:39]
C
So it's not. I think we could, we can scrap like that idea. But then the rest of it does sort of feel like. Like anything's on the table. And like, I don't not. I'm not saying that even in a way where, like, it. It's bad or they're not going to be able to figure it out. I think they will. I think it's actually interesting that they have, I think, kind of all these different pieces and can package things too. And I think if I remember correctly, like, Matt Patricia might have. Might have talked about that a little bit last year. And then I think maybe a similar thing to the Pete Warner situation happened where it's like, well, I don't have to do that because I got three guys on the field that can do whatever I ask them to do at multiple positions. So it's like we're ready to rock and roll. But that's. I think that's kind of a rare thing to have. So I'm, I'm excited to see where it goes. Like, the fact that he. It would have been great if you said, like, yep, it's. It's this, this and this. That's how we're going to attack it this year. Like, great, let's talk about it. But the fact that he doesn't. I don't say he doesn't know, but he's not certain really about anything. I think kind of makes spring a little more exciting now. Right. We're gonna have hopefully a couple other times to watch and then we'll see what they choose to show in the spring game. But just create some, some different conversations now that I think could be kind of fun and interesting as we go
- [23:49]
B
through the rest of spring, but far more. Huh. Interesting as opposed to. Oh, no.
- [23:56]
C
Yeah, very much. For me, anyway. I don't. I understand that the information can hit people's ears differently, but that, that. I didn't hear Matt Patricia say that and be like, oh, no, they got. We're four practices in the spring and they got nothing. Like, I don't, I don't. I think I think it's okay that they don't. They don't have all the answers at the moment.
- [24:14]
B
It. I mean, the only. Oh, no. Is watching Caleb Downs, Arvell Reese and Sunny Styles. I'll go in the top 10 picks in the draft. Like, that's just a generalized. Oh, no. It is not a specific. This defense is dead in 2026. Oh, no. Before we get to my thing about Matt Patrician, we actually want to talk about what James Smith said. Because James Smith burned down Alabama. No, he didn't. But it hit my. I wasn't.
- [24:38]
C
He kind of did.
- [24:39]
B
Okay, then. I, I don't wanna. I don't want to get him in trouble. Anything else about the ball talk with Patricia other than my question to cover just of like what you, you know, there. I thought it was. And I think it's okay. Like, it was kind of general. Right. It wasn't. There was some of like, what do you think of this guy? What do you think of that guy? There wasn't a ton of that. Because I do think there's just like getting a handle on what he thinks of the group is really important.
- [25:05]
C
Yeah. I'm trying to remember what he said. I thought the way he talked about Earl Little was interesting. We've. We've not talked to any safeties yet. We've not talked with Macareri or Tim Walton yet to get, I think like a little bit of a better handle on. On how all that fits together. But he said that Earl Little is around the ball a lot. Just sort of has that natural instinct about him. And that. That to me is like, I think. I think he's talking like sort of like skill set and. And like intuition a little bit there. But I also think maybe he's letting us in a little bit on where they're playing him or where they're thinking of playing him, which is down, closer to the line of scrimmage in a position to make more plays around the ball.
- [25:48]
B
And. And I don't even know that it's a dime. Right. I just really wonder if it's third and eight and clearly it's a passing down and a team has three receivers on the field, including a wiggly little quick slot receivers. Earl Little going to be on the field or. I just really wonder because like right, let Lorenzo Styles, his speed is just a different thing that I think you could trust that. But I really. And it just like gets us back to talking about Jordan Thomas, who we certainly enjoyed talking about the first week of practice. Is that where you go to Jermaine Matthews, slides inside. He's the passing down nickel in this situation. And then your outside corners are Devin Sanchez and Jordan Thomas or whoever that third outside corner is.
- [26:26]
C
Right.
- [26:26]
B
And that you're looking Earl Little's off the field. And it's not like it's not a dime because it's not six DBs. But you're replacing your slot corner, your nickel safety to get more coverage as opposed to the physicality around the ball kind of stuff. Whereas right when it's Jordan Hancock in 2024, he's both of those. Right when it's Lorenzo Styles, maybe you're going to a dime look there and Lorenzo Styles play is going back and somebody else is coming in there. But I just, I just don't. And I don't know who's. I don't know. The best example of like the wiggly slot receiver to talk about
- [27:01]
C
Oregon comes to mind with what all they have back at receiver.
- [27:04]
B
Yeah. And even it's one of those things if you want. I mean we talked about it with Marv. I'm sure we'll talk about with Jeremiah. It's like you trying to get matchups. Are you trying to put your best receiver in the slot on a certain play of Texas puts Cam Calhoun in the slot and it's like, oh, okay, it's Cam Calhoun versus Earl Little on third and seven. I'm not sure Ohio State wants that. Right. I think maybe you want three more cover guys. I, I don't know and I, I don't want to. I'm not going to pretend I watched every Earl Little snap at Florida State when he was a safety. But if, if Matt Patricia is talking more about him being around the ball kind of guy again, it's just another opportunity potentially for substitution and a different little bit of a different package.
- [27:39]
C
Yeah, I think it is. I would wonder if, if Ohio State goes down that road maybe like Jay Timmons as a freshman could, could factor into that too because he's. I think he'll probably end up being like the backup nickel, but he's, he's maybe has a little more corner skill to him than Earl Little might. So there are a lot of options there. Yeah. You can move Jermaine around. I think. So there's again like it could be. I'm. I was like driving back from interviews wondering if maybe. And I like, I hesitate to compare Ohio State to Michigan because I know that annoys people. But like that Michigan defense in 2023, which it just played a lot of Guys kind of like rotating, packaging, all that stuff. I wonder if Ohio State's defense might feel a little bit more like that this year because of the. Some of the things we're talking about.
- [28:30]
B
All right, we're talking about burn down Bama.
- [28:33]
C
Sure.
- [28:34]
B
Okay, so we'll start with this. This was on late Wednesday. Ryan Day doesn't tweet a ton. Ryan Day is not. Is not a supremely active tweeter. Let's see. Ryan day has tweeted 1, 2, 3 times in 2026. They're all retweets. One of them was Wednesday night. Somebody tweeted from Alabama's Pro Day. As we talked about. We did a big pro Day. If you want to hear what we thought of Pro Day, we did not do it on this YouTube and podcast feed. We did it for our substack subscribers over there. Again, you're getting a deal right now, 18 off an annual subscription. If you go over and check out our substack, it's 10 bucks a month otherwise. We did that for our substack subscribers, but we talked about that. Alabama and Ohio State had their pro day on Wednesday in the same day. And somebody tweeted from Alabama's pro day. Or somebody retweeted. Ryan Poles is the only GM to be at Tyler Simpson's pro day. Alabama quarterback Tyler Simpson projected to be the second quarterback off the the board in the draft. Other teams have different personnel in attendance. There were more GMs. There were more head coaches at Ohio State's pro Day. Lewis Riddick from espn, who I wrote about this in our notebook. There's a little bit of a controversy of people comparing, like, Arvell Reese doing a bag drill compared to what Ruben Bane did at on Monday at Miami's Pro Day. And Reuben Bain, who had a thousand pass rush snaps in college, had more bend in the bag drill. And Arvell Reese, who had 130 pass rush snaps in college, had less. And so somebody was like, look at this. Look at this bend. And Lewis Riddick came out, like, with a bazooka and was like, if you think that Arvl Reese is not. You should never evaluate. Like, he was mad.
- [30:16]
C
Yeah.
- [30:16]
B
And then. And Lewis Riddick went on ESPN and did a report that was like, people are salivating over Arvell Reese. That's why he's gonna be a top three or four pick. They're licking their chops to get a chance to draft this guy. So anyway, Lewis Riddick is on tilt a little bit. He's mad about anyone who thought Ohio State didn't have a good pro day? Lewis Riddick retweeted the thing about only one being GM being at Alabama. And he said, because they were all here with the photo of the indoor field at the Woody. So it's like, there's nobody at Bama's pro day. Lewis Riddick says it's because they're all here. And Ryan Day retweeted it. It's his third tweet of the year. And Ryan Day retweeted it.
- [30:57]
C
Yep.
- [30:57]
B
And it's. What do you call, like, it's sec. It's like. It's like tertiary throwing shade. It's like third level shade throwing. It's like, I didn't throw it here. It's a court tweet of a court tweet. What do you. I'm a.
- [31:09]
C
You're amplifying someone else's shade. Yeah, yeah.
- [31:12]
B
It's. It's shade amplification. But even that for Ryan Day is a little something, isn't it? It's a little something.
- [31:21]
C
Certainly intent. Yeah. Intentional. Obviously, you have to press the button to retweet it, but, like, there was some thought behind it. It wasn't just like, oh, someone's saying something nice about our team. It's like, nope, someone's saying something nice about our team in comparison to Alabama.
- [31:37]
B
Bang, bang. And then James Smith, the Alabama transfer, showed up at the interview table after the fourth practice of spring ball for the Buckeyes. I was not there. You were.
- [31:48]
C
I was there.
- [31:51]
B
He.
- [31:52]
C
So I'll. The first thing he said, it was like. It was. And I think I. I think I'm understanding what he said correctly. And he, like, kind of. He, like, flipped the SEC speed thing. He said, like, you know, we worked hard at Alabama. I'm not saying we didn't. And he. And he sort of went out of the way to say, like. I'm not saying. I'm not trying to say anything bad about Alabama, but you asked me about Ohio State, and, like, both places work hard, but there's a different intensity at Ohio State. And then he said, like, you know, he said in the sec, like, that the players maybe are a little bigger and slower, and here it's faster. And I was like, what? I don't think anyone has ever said that before, but you've experienced both, so who am I to say you're wrong? So his experience has been sec, big and slow, four practices in the Big Ten, speed all over the place.
- [32:46]
B
My new favorite Buckeye. So I gotta hang out with James Smith. It was interesting. I read an interesting article off of the combine. The headline was SEC Speed is dead. Sonny Stiles and Arvell Reese buried it. Oh wait, I wrote that. So like, welcome aboard James Smith. I would like to like pass this sword on to you. Music to my ears. And again, I mean, I don't know. Facts are facts and you just get a ball knower like James Smith and I who who we'd argue with James Smith, who's been at two preeminent programs now. But he also made another comparison between Ohio State and Alabama.
- [33:23]
C
Yep, he said when he visited Ohio State as a transfer this winter, the the energy around that visit, the conversations he had with people while he was in Columbus reminded him of his recruitment and freshman year at Alabama when Nick Saban was running the program.
- [33:45]
B
Tough 24 hours for Kaylan DeBoer brother, I don't know what to tell you.
- [33:50]
C
It did seem like, like, yeah, like James Smith was like a He wasn't like Alabama sucks. I'm glad I left that place. But I think if you've like really wanted to like parse his words a little bit, it was sort of like I signed up for one thing, I ended up in a different thing and I came to Ohio State because it reminded me of the thing I signed up for.
- [34:14]
B
If you work in university maintenance, Granger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tips. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H Vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. There are countless reasons to learn a new language, whether you have an upcoming trip planned or you simply want to learn a new skill. Rosetta Stone breaks down your new language into bite sized pieces and focuses on speaking practice for real conversations. Rosetta Stone's True Accent feature even helps you perfect your pronunciation. I mean pronunciation. Visit RosettaStone.com today. Rosetta Stone How Languages Learned we made a lot of Ryan Day and Nick Saban comparisons last year. Like we've made a lot of comparisons about can Ohio State take Alabama's place in the sport? Alabama's win total is 8.5 and it's not because their schedule's tough. So like I don't know what to tell you. So welcome James Smith. Welcome aboard to like this is the it's the place. And let's, let's not pretend like James Smith wasn't Alabama's best player last year. He didn't storm out of there because, like I'm their best player and like, how dare they. They're not developing. It's like he was fine and he came here. So like, you know, we don't want to overdo it, but interesting to hear. Hit your ear. Did it as it happened, as Hitch definitely did.
- [35:52]
C
And, and part of that discussion too was kind of the, the feedback that he said. Caleb Downs, former teammate at Alabama relate to him about his experiences. I don't even think like comparing the two places necessarily. Just sort of like here's what Ohio State's about and James Smith, I think like the, a lot of what he heard and there was a previous relationship with Larry Johnson as well. He actually made it sound like. So I guess James said that he has family who's from Cleveland.
- [36:19]
B
Okay, but.
- [36:20]
C
And I think, I think Larry Johnson maybe in that recruitment or maybe Ohio State generally in that recruitment, he's from Mobile, Alabama or. No, he's from Montgomery, Alabama. James Smith is. I think they, they probably felt like they just didn't have a great shot to get him. So I don't think they put kind of a full court press on him. And James Smith sort of made it sound like maybe had Ohio State put the full court press on him, he was probably a little more open to coming to Ohio State from the jump than maybe you would have assumed about a kid from Montgomery, Alabama. But I guess it all worked out in the end. He's here now.
- [36:54]
B
They're usually pretty good at that. I think it's on the questionnaire that all recruits fill out. Do you have family in Ohio? Yeah, I'm not. I don't think there's an actual questionnaire, but like they know there's a lot of like, oh yeah, my grandma lives here or a lot of like, oh yeah, my uncle grew up here and, and like is a Buckeye fan. Like they, they. And it's like, but I live in Tennessee, but I live in California, but I live in Alabama. Like they're, they, they work those connections an awful lot. Donovan Jackson, right?
- [37:19]
C
Yep.
- [37:19]
B
I mean Todd Jackson, his dad, that family's from Cleveland. And Donovan Jackson was like, how'd they get this five star Texas kids? Like, he's got Ohio blood, baby. I don't know.
- [37:27]
C
Come on.
- [37:30]
B
Anything else from James Smith that you, you thought was particularly interesting?
- [37:35]
C
Just again, to the, to the point of scheme, James Smith primarily Like a, like a three technique kind of guy at Alabama has been doing some nose tackle stuff at Ohio State. Someone asked him, I apologize, I can't remember who it was. Someone asked when you watched the film of Ohio State's defense from last year, like, who was, who was the guy that you sort of saw yourself filling that role? And of course he said Katie McDonald, because Kaden McDonald was very good, but Kaden played a lot of note like, like straight up nose on center two gapping kind of stuff. James Smith, not. He's not 330 pounds like Kaden McDonald, but he's a pretty strong dude and he certainly got some size. So it was just good to hear that like, you know, they hadn't, they haven't scrapped the idea of someone playing a true nose just because Katie McDonald's gone.
- [38:23]
B
Which again, if we're. And you were talking about this on our pod, that wasn't a pod on the sidewalk, that you were talking like Kaden McDonald's ability to slide, like when Arvel comes, like when they go to a five man front and then can, can Kaden be both a three tech or a one Tech or be over the center or not over center. And again, you don't have to bring a true nose tackle into the game in that situation because Kaden McDonald is kind of playing two positions based on what Matt Patricia wants to do with the front. And you're thinking maybe James Smith could be that similar kind of player.
- [38:52]
C
Yep, I think he could. I think maybe John Walker could as well. John Walker is, is a little bigger. He's probably, he's, he's closer in weight at least to Kaden McDonald than, than James Smith is. And then I think if you look, if you want to really expand the conversation, if you look at them bringing in a guy like Jameer Perez in this recruiting class who's £360, it's like, yeah, that's different. That's, that's the guy you bring into your program if you're looking to play a true nose. So there's a little bit of, of sort of like Matt Patricia's vision for the defense I think coming into, to play with, with the roster build there. When you look at some of that stuff.
- [39:25]
B
Okay, I talked to Scarris over a little bit. I think I'm gonna write about it. He's an iron Buckeye. He talked about what that means to him. I thought it was interesting. He said that freshman linebacker Sincere Johnson has flashed. I said, how is he flashed? And he said he already has six tackles and we haven't even gone live yet. So.
- [39:48]
C
Which is such a good quote.
- [39:52]
B
Which is just like, right? Which is like, sincere, quit tackling. Oh, my God, we love this kid. He's a man. Oh, sincere, don't do that anymore. He's gonna be a monst. Like, that's like. Right. Don't tackle him unless you really want to tackle him. I kind of like it when you do it right. That's.
- [40:07]
C
I think I. I can't remember. I. I think maybe I put it in practice. Observations. Or maybe we even talked about it. One of the non padded practices we watched, they were doing like a pursuit drill and Sincere Johnson just like ran through running back and put him on the ground. James is like, what are you doing? But he's like, like smiling as he says it.
- [40:29]
B
It's like, you love it.
- [40:30]
C
He loved that he did that. So.
- [40:31]
B
Yeah.
- [40:31]
C
Yeah. That's the kind of stuff that gets you on the field early.
- [40:34]
B
Yeah, that's going to be in the 4,000-word features people write when Sincere Johnson wins the Butkus Award. It's like when he was a freshman, he was. He was tackling people when he wasn't supposed to. So, you know, it's just interesting. And I think, you know, Garrett Stover is interesting. Garrett Stover is. Come on. Like, first day of practice, right?
- [40:50]
C
Who's who?
- [40:52]
B
Come on.
- [40:53]
C
You said it was you. I mean, and I was, I was, I was too dismissive of that too quickly. I'm back around. I think he's interesting. Yeah.
- [41:04]
B
And I will say, and this is like, who Austin Ward did say, like, you know, your cousin, because they're not brothers, Garrett Stover and Cade Stover. But he was like your cousin, kind of was a linebacker, then found his home at tight end. Any chance you might be a tight end? Garrett Silver's like, I'll do whatever, but like, it's just Austin wants him to play fullback. Well, do you want him to play fullback?
- [41:25]
C
Yeah, kind of.
- [41:30]
B
I mean, like that. If that's the new thing. It's like, where do they find their fullbacks? It's like, let's run through the list of Iron Buckeyes. It's like, could Jeremiah Smith be a fullback? No. Could Brandon and S.B. a fullback? No. Could Garrett Stover be a fullback? We found our. We found our fullback. We just like, they could have been Lincoln Keenholtz. Could Lincoln Keenholtz, who was an Iron Buckeye last summer, have. Could he have been a fullback if they wanted him to be?
- [41:56]
C
Maybe.
- [41:57]
B
Yeah. The Missed opportunity. That's the, that's the cohort. We will find our fullback from among the Iron Buckeyes. So. But it also feel like, you know, Riley Pettigohn is a very talented second year linebacker who's not a full participant in the spring because he's recovering. Christian Allegro, how he fits in as a transfer from Wisconsin is very interesting. TJ Alford is not to be forgotten. Very talented young player as well. But like there's, there's a little bit of a. I don't think it's opening but like are we a hundred percent sure who's going to be the second starting linebacker next to Peyton Pierce? Especially if it turns out that maybe there's some kind of rotation, some kind of package stuff there. I don't think we're, I think we would have said in January Riley Pettigohn and Riley Pettigohn hasn't done anything to make us not think that. But are there other guys who are just like, like putting themselves into the conversation, like maybe. And maybe Garrett Stover is one of them?
- [42:51]
C
Yeah, I think it's pretty open. That'll be fun to get into when we talk with James Laurinaitis later in the spring because I think it's, I would have said coming off of last season like immediately Riley Pettigon, they can learn like Rally Pettajan is, is a little banked up, not gonna be a full participant. So then I maybe would have said like if I had to pick one, maybe Christian Allegro just because of his experience. But I'll pull back a little bit from that too. I think. I think Garrett Stover is in that mix. I, I think it's pretty wide open between Pro4 or 5 guys if you want to include Sincere Johnson in that mix. Right. So. And I think, I think that's a, like they didn't rotate much last year because they were so good. But if you're, if you're bringing that sort of ceiling down just a bit, which I think is probably a fair expectation, but the floor remains high and there's just like a couple of guys you think you can play. I think you can rotate at linebacker, so I think that'd be on the table too. But yeah, who's, if I like right now, who's going to be will linebacker against Texas or against Ball State next to Peyton Pierce? Yeah, I don't know.
- [44:00]
B
We also have to be on alert for Sincere Johnson to have 12 tackles against Kent State in Week 3. And we just like, we have to remind ourselves right now to chill out, right? They're like, we all like what Riley Pettigon did last year and against Grambling. Riley. Okay. Yeah. And it was like they got to get this guy on the field. Then it was like, I only played 80 snaps. But. But the other thing, and this is not to the extent of when I called Kerry Combs to his face a dirty liar for saying that he was going to rotate Denzel Ward with Marshawn Lattimore and Gary On Connolly. I didn't call him a dirty liar, but we had like a very. Like you. You always say this and then it never happens. He's like, it's gonna happen, right? We have. You were there.
- [44:42]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:43]
B
Wasn't angry, but it was like moderately confrontational for like a group interview, right? Wasn't it?
- [44:48]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:49]
B
So James. So this is. It wasn't to the same level, but James Lorditis, like last August was like, Peyton Pierce is gonna play. And it's like, how is Peyton Pierce gonna play when you have Arvl Reese and Sonny Styles? Like, this doesn't make any sense. And then Peyton Pierce played 263 snaps. He was 14th on the defense in snaps. And like he didn't like exactly rotate, but he didn't also only play garbage time snaps. And like James Lorditis, despite having two top five picks at linebacker, found a way and not even found like thought he needed to utilize Peyton Pierce in like a real way. And so I think like that's certainly available because again, there's no Arvell Reese's or Sonny Styles on this roster. So like who, who's the third linebacker who actually gets on the field in spots that matter also is an interesting thing. You know, 10 snaps against Miami, 12 against Michigan. But like the, like most of the season he played 20 snaps a game. So that's like a real thing. He played 22 against Penn State. He played 22. This is Peyton Pierce last year, 15 against Texas, 24 against Minnesota, 22 against Illinois, 35 against Wisconsin, 22 against Penn State. It's not only against teams that play a heavy 12 personnel and they might put like Peyton Pierce played. And so I think they'll assume not only is the second linebacker spot maybe a little more open than we realize, there's room for a third linebacker to be on the field is a real thing.
- [46:15]
C
There's definitely room for a third linebacker. And I think this sort of flies under the radar. But like Peyton Pierce did that and also led the team in special team snaps. He played over 200 special team snaps. So if I had to, like, pin down a role for Garrett Stover right now, that. That might be, what I would say is maybe you're the third linebacker, say, 150 to 250 snaps on defense, but you're. You're leading the charge on. On special teams. You're on every unit, and you're like the special teams captain, even if that's not something that is sort of like, publicly assigned to anybody.
- [46:50]
B
Yeah. And it's just, again, it's the difference. Peyton Pierce played 263 snaps. Riley Pettigon, the fourth linebacker, played 77. So, like, Peyton Pierce was closer to Sonny and Arvell than he was to Riley Pettajohn. So if it is Peyton Pearson, Riley Pettajan, let's say, or it's Peyton Pearson, Christian Allegro and Riley Pettit John are sharing something. But there's room for Garrett Stover to make an impact, which I think is interesting, as you explained.
- [47:16]
C
Yeah. And I. I really do think it's so. So Sunny Styles played 663, and Arvell Reese played 651. I think I would bet right now that there aren't two linebackers who play 600 snaps next year. I think. I think Peyton Pierce might, but I don't think any. Another linebacker will play that many.
- [47:31]
B
That. That between. Right.
- [47:33]
C
Sprinkle out a little bit. Yeah.
- [47:34]
B
There's like, 900 snaps between the second linebacker and the third linebacker spot last year. Maybe that gets sprinkled out between Petta John Allegro and Stover and maybe Alfred. Right. In a way that's more equal.
- [47:49]
C
Yeah, I think it's possible.
- [47:51]
B
Which goes back to the thing we started at the top of, like, are there just more packages?
- [47:54]
C
Or.
- [47:54]
B
Even if it's not a package necessarily, it's some kind of rotation where it's like, Peyton Pierce pretty much is on the field all the time. But, like, it's the second series. I wonder who's in as the second linebacker. Oh, it's the middle of the third quarter. I wonder who's in as a second linebacker. Oh, this team is, you know, trying to throw the ball now. And so maybe, like, Allegro's in the game more because they want to, like, try whatever, you know, like, it'll be interesting to see. And again, this, like, congratulations to Matt Patricia on his contract. Like, I think he's going to earn his money. Like, he's gonna have some stuff to figure out, so.
- [48:25]
C
Definitely. Yeah. It's just. It's a he. And he said he sort of said this right on, on Thursday. He had a lot to figure out last year, but there was just a lot of like, institutional knowledge about what he had to work with that, that he didn't have. But the staff had and, and was able to give him his feedback as he tried to figure everything out. And now like, everyone's trying to figure out everything about Everybody because there's 51 new players on the roster. So it's just gonna, it's gonna be a little more difficult and prob.
- [48:54]
B
Yeah. Okay. Retiring the line of questioning about whether Ohio State's defense needed to be more aggressive slash create more havoc last season, much of I've, I, I, it came to a head for me kind of at the NFL combine with just seeing how well Sonny Stiles and Arvell Reese tested and just realizing like, what, what these three special guys they had on defense and that as we talked about even going into the playoff, you know, studying the defenses, there were a lot of great defenses in the College Football Playoff, but when you think about like havoc rate among like the, the best play, like the best defenses in the country, most of them were really high in havoc rate, which is tackles for loss, which includes sacks, turnovers. And then I, I guess I didn't realize it also includes passes broken up. Is the one, the college football data includes that in havoc rate. And so when we're talking about havoc rate, we've had this discussion before. Texas Tech was first last year, Indiana was second. Those are probably the two defenses that you would put on the same level as Ohio State a year ago. Oklahoma was third. Great defense. Texas A&M was fourth. This is Havoc rate, right? Miami was in the top 10. And then Ohio State was 34th in of the 68 power conference teams. So they were exactly middle of the pack in creating havoc. They were efficiency monsters. And so I asked like, I asked Arvell and Sunny a lot about it sort of over the course of stuff, and I've written about it, I've talked about it, and I never had the chance to really ask Matt Patricia about it. I asked Ryan Day about it on the first day of spring practice. So I asked Matt Patricia about it.
- [50:33]
C
Were you.
- [50:33]
B
I was worried I wasn't going to get it in because, like, everybody was using it.
- [50:37]
C
Yeah. Shout out to new football Sid Will, Will Pantages for making sure you got that question.
- [50:43]
B
I mean, it's one of those things again, it's like sometimes the old guys, if you didn't get one at the end, right. I mean, like, they yeah.
- [50:48]
C
Yeah.
- [50:49]
B
So I got the question to Matt Patricia about. I. I mentioned, you know, you were first in the country and fewest points allowed. You gave up the fewest big plays. They gave up the fewest plays of 20 yards, 30 yards, and 40 yards in the country. But you were 75th in turnovers, and you were like, middle of the pack in havoc rate. Were you happy with that balance a year ago? And he first of all, like, sort of like, question the statistics and kind of said, if you're going on raw numbers, like, we didn't play that many snaps as a defense. And so if you're looking at how many turn, we're 75th in overall turnovers gained, right? Well, we didn't. Our defense didn't play as many snaps. Well, that's. That's like a true fact. But it's also. It's always one of those where it's like, well, I'm just. I'm sort of trying to use stats to back up the point. So I'm not just saying, like, hey, why weren't you more aggressive? But then if, like, it's like, well, then if you go at the stats, it's like, well, it's not just about the stats, right? It's about general balance of aggression versus being sound. And then one of the other things he said is that, okay, this. I'm reading the reading from the transcript here. You know, the biggest stat that matters is obviously the score. That's how we win and lose. So stats are great. I think it's a great monitor for what you're doing. And so I look at those stats and I say, all right, we have to turn the ball over. We have to tack. We have to attack whatever we're doing. So we obviously want to have more of those plays, but also trying to be realistic, like, are we just at least playing good defense? Are we doing what we want to do on the tape? Is it clean? I'd say that's probably one of the best compliments I've had in the last couple days. Just talking with my NFL guys that I know that have come back, watching our tape here recently, getting our guys better. They just keep saying, the tape is so clean. It's so clean. And it's just that means you're operating at a high level on the field. And I think if you do that, you give yourself a chance to win. And then I said, are you willing to give up any more big plays in the pursuit of more turnovers or more sacks or anything like that? And he said, I'm always looking for more sacks and more turnovers. I'm never telling us not to do that for sure, but I definitely don't want to give up touchdowns because that's the one that's going to be not good. So whenever you ask somebody like, do you want to get more turnovers? Every coach says, yes, I want to get more turnovers. So, like, that's. There's a. There's a luck to turnovers. I think I am mostly in the side of, like, turnovers are a large function of luck. But there is a balance. And I do think it's like, turnovers can be a little bit. It's to some degree of reflection of aggression. And so to me, it's really the balance of aggression versus soundness, willing to take risks that maybe you give something up, but maybe you increase the chances of your defense making a splash play, whether it's a sack on second down, whether it's a turnover, whether it's Caleb Downs coming up to the line and tackling a running back behind the line of scrimmage. And that is. So I'm done looking backwards and having that conversation backwards. I remain interested in it forward. In any. Well, anything about. Did you learn anything from last year that might apply to this year? But I'll just start asking about this year and whether they are maybe more willing to do any of that. I didn't feel like I. I didn't. In the end, I didn't get anywhere. Right. I didn't get anywhere with this line of questioning, did I?
- [54:16]
C
I think it's hard to. Because football coaches, I think, just try to avoid, like, the. The good answers to questions like that because then you start getting into like, hey, we want to blitz more. We're going to be a little more. Whatever exotic or. And they just don't want to give that stuff away. That's just the kind of thing we're going to have to wait and see. I think. And I don't think. I don't think you're just. You're not going to get Ryan Day and Matt Patricia to, like, say anything that borders on the criticism of a defense that gave up nine points. Yeah. Last year it's like, sure, you thought we should have had more tackles for lost. Great. We gave up nine points per game. And I think. I know. And I actually don't think that's an unreasonable answer if you wanted to just fall back on it. Because not a lot of teams in modern college football have allowed only nine points per game.
- [55:08]
B
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A
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- [56:14]
B
Which is, and I agree, I don't think it's an unreasonable answer. Again, in the pursuit of if you're asking a question question, what could they possibly say? I do think you could say, man, we had, we had an excellent defense last year. We got to get after it a little bit more. Like, and looking back on that, there were times where I thought, man, I just, we had such talented guys and there were some key moments where, you know, I'm going to remember to remind myself that, like you can't just rely on, on your talent. You've got to put the pedal down defensively and you've got to make things happen. It's not just about, about stopping them, it's about attacking them. And, and as good as we were last year, and I'm not sure I would do anything different, but as good as we were, that's a lesson I'm going to take into 2026. That's the answer that I'm looking for. And I didn't get it.
- [56:58]
C
Yeah, yeah. Again, hard, I think hard to be that introspective when you were as good as they were. But it is like, so I was, I was looking up some of these numbers as you were talking like all the, the, I guess the three defenses you want to compare them to the most, like Indiana, Texas Tech, Miami, all those defenses did play more total plays than Ohio State and Indiana. Miami because they played a few more games than Ohio State did. On a per game basis. Indiana only played one more play per game than Ohio State did. Ohio State averaged 57.2 defensive plays per game. Indiana was 58.7. Miami and Texas Tech were more like 10 more plays per game. Miami actually in the end, because it went to the national championship, had more defensive snaps than any team in the country had over a thousand. But there's like not a, it's not like they were getting 20 more plays per game. And, and if you think of it more as a percentage, like I don't really care how many plays per game you got. It's, it is a, it is a fact. If you want to go down that road and look at it, it's like all those defenses were very good. None of those defenses gave up anything scoring wise. Indiana gave up 11.7. Miami gave up 11.8. Texas Tech gave up 14.8. Ohio gave up 9.3. They were all efficient. The like outlier. Among those four excellent defenses is that Ohio State did not generate nearly as much havoc. And some of that is luck because some of its turnovers, I think some of it's not because some of it is sacks and tackles for loss and sort of like how creative and aggressive you choose to be. Some of it's personnel driven as well like that some of those teams had some monster pass rushers that maybe Ohio State didn't necessarily have. I don't, it doesn't mean Ohio State had a bad defense. Oh, I said an excellent defense last year. But if you're looking for separating factors among the best defenses in the country last year, I think you can point to Ohio State scoring margin which was the best in the country or scoring average was the best country and say like it was Ohio State. Or you can look at some of this other stuff and say like that was probably one of these other defenses because they were didn't give up anything scoring wise but also really got after teams. And Ohio State did not quite meet that, that second bar. The same way this other teams did
- [59:09]
B
the Indiana Miami games. Indiana Miami combined for 10 sacks. Ohio State had five sacks in those two games combined. Looking at havoc havoc rate in those individual games, Indiana's havoc rate against Ohio State was 21.4. Ohio State's havoc rate was 10. So like on 21.4% of plays, Indiana's defense creative havoc. On 10% of plays, Ohio State's defense created havoc. In the Miami game, Miami was 18.3. Ohio State was 13.8. I rewatched it again. I keep watching the Miami Ohio State game. Second drive for Miami. Four minutes into the game, a third and nine. Arvell Reese lines up up at edge over Markel Bell. The 6 foot 9, 360 pound Miami left tackle, he goes right through him. He goes into him, wins with his hands and gets around him and gets to Carson Beck. And it is like the Zach Harrison, Stetson Bennett play right of like he is right there. He is half an inch away from swatting the ball out of the quarterback's hand as he brings it back. He doesn't quite get there. And Carson Beck completes a pass for a first down on third nine. When that play happened in the game, four minutes into the game, it's like at 1104, if you want to go, if you recorded it, you want to go back and watch it. 1104 left in the first quarter. I thought to myself, Miami's in trouble. Like they can't block Arvell Arvell by PFF Stats in true pass rush opportunities. There were 12 of them in that game where like Miami really dropped back, right. And didn't throw a screen, didn't throw it quick, like there were 12 of them. Arvell Reese rushed twice. That was one of them. So he rushed in a true pass opportunity one other time the entire game. He had two pressures in the game. That was one of them. He had two in the entire game, right. Arvel Reese had five pressures against Texas. He had five pressures in the last six games of the year. So like that's like, that's what I want to show Matt Patricio. I want to say, look what Arbel Reese did to Markel Bell. I think if Arvel Reese had done that, if you had chosen if the defensive scheme and it's one of the like, whatever you got to do, get Arvel Reese over Markel Bell. And I think if he had done that five more times in the game, I think he would have had two sacks. And then I don't know what would have happened. But I like, to me that's, that's the, the freakiness. And we were talking like, you know, with Stephen, we were saying like I just like they needed to let their freak flag fly a little bit more. Like they were so sound, but they've got some freaks who didn't get freaky enough stuff. And if you would have let Arvel be like, there's this house of a left tackle who's 69360 but he cannot handle Arvell's speed, I would like. And you, I thought you had evidence and I would have gone back to that. Well, until Miami adjusted to it. Because I don't think Miami, I'm not sure Miami have adjusted to it. If I'm wrong there and they did adjust, then I apologize, like, call like someone tell me. But that's what I mean. That's what I mean. And it's like, did the Ohio State defense lose? I say, well, the pick six was like a big problem. But then like at the end of the game it felt like, I mean, is Arvel getting after the passer? It's like Arvel kind of gets. Goes a little bit toward the middle of the field and Carson Beck scrambles for a third down pickup on one play. And then on like the game and basically the game, the play that end of the game, they run a little pick play. Arvella is supposed to cover the back out of the backfield. And they flip a little pass to a guy who has like two catches the whole year and it comes down to Arvel Reese pass coverage. Right? It's like, well, that's not how I would want to decide this game. I'd want to decide the game with Arvell Reese getting after the quarterback if you can. So like that's what I mean. But I'm done. I'm curious how it applies into the future. When I asked Ryan Day about it in the first day of spring practice, he kind of said, well, maybe if we don't have as many dudes, we're going to have to create more of it our own with the scheme, which I find very interesting. Matt Patricia didn't exactly say that. So I'm applying it forward. But that's the final thing that If I had 10 more minutes with Matt Patricia, that's what I would try to get an answer to.
- [63:21]
C
Are you going to be operating on the clean freaky spectrum and you want Ohio State a little more. A little more toward. Toward the freaks. And by freak, by freak I don't mean freak athletes. By freak I mean like freak it. Let's get weird and dude do some stuff to create some ha.
- [63:40]
B
I think maybe the clean freaky spectrum is the second favorite thing of mine that you've ever said other than you up the clean freaky spectrum. It's like I could. You can get. I. I can do clean freaky, freaky spectrum all day. My life is about the balance of the clean and freaky spectrum. Right? Aren't we all? So. But like when you're. It almost like it almost proves the point a little bit of like, well, I don't know what I mean. And that Patricia was not at all like he could have shove me in a trash can and he Didn't. He wasn't a jerk about the answer at all. But it's sort of like, hey, should you have created more havoc? And he's like, well, let me tell you about all these NFL guys who talked about how clean our defense is. And it's like, my answer would be like, yeah, I know. Too clean. Like, I just. I always like. And that's why I like quarterbacks throwing interceptions. You got to take a risk every now and then, right? Like, I like a little raggedness. A little like. Because often the raggedness is how you beat teams, right? And I think when you're less talented, you got to get ragged, you got to take risks. And I think it goes back to what we talked about last year, the efficiency monsters. They're so good, they're so smart, they're so sound. Are they explosive enough on both sides of the ball? And it. It is this part of it. Is Ohio State going to be as smart and composed and as intelligent and as sound as. And as talented as last year? Maybe not. And maybe that's good. Is it possible for a football team to be too good? Which is ridiculous thing to say, but if any part of the answer is yes, I think Ohio State's the example. They dominated inferior opponents too much. They were too sound. They never got freaky, even though they had some freaky dudes. And then they lost to teams that is. Did Indiana's defense get freaky?
- [65:26]
C
Very freaky. Yeah.
- [65:28]
B
Yeah. So I think they lost to Indiana, whose scheme is freakier, and then they lost to Miami, whose dudes played a little freakier. Right. That. Like Bane and Mezador. I don't know if that was scheme, but it's like, well, they're throwing Gabe Van Sickle around. Right? I mean, what. You know, like.
- [65:44]
C
But I also think. I think that who's the. Corey Heatherman turned up. Turned up the freakiness a little bit because I remember going to that game saying, like, well, yeah, Miami's got great pass rushers, but they're kind of pretty straightforward with how they come after you. And it's like, well, not like they. They mix it up a little bit. When they played Ohio State, they're blitzing Keante Scott a lot. Like, go ahead and deal with this. So, yeah, I think there. There's. And I think if you want to whatever. Juxtapose it to the gym. No. Early Jim Knowles, like, you got too freaky. Yeah. Real in. Real in the freak. But I don't know. Like, it's hard. I. I would imagine it's like, we're so good, we don't have to do any of that. We're so good, we dominate every single game we play. But then like eventually that you play, you play a game where you need it and, and you just kind of can't summon it because it's just not something you've done. It's not something you've done as a matter of course throughout the season. I think it's similar. It's not dissimilar from like the tempo conversation with Ohio State's offense. Right. So, yeah, I don't know. That's where we've landed. Ohio State. Too good. Good.
- [66:52]
B
Too good.
- [66:53]
C
Too good in 2025.
- [66:55]
B
But like if I, if, if you and I, if four of us won out, right? Natty P. Ryan Day, Philly, Billy and French really go out for wings. And I try to present, I do my five minute monologue where I try to present this idea about why Ohio State was too good last year and they didn't turn up the freaky dial enough when I got done. Would you, Matt, Patricia and Ryan Day look at each other as a trio of ball knowers and laugh me away from the table?
- [67:25]
C
I wouldn't. I also wouldn't put my ball knowing on their level, but I think my Patricia might do is polish off nine wings and then make the number nine with the bones and then show it to you. Here's how many points we allowed last year.
- [67:43]
B
Yeah. And then I'd probably get offended and say something like, matt, can I see your national championship ring? Oh, wait one. Because that's it. It's like, right. So we said the defense was a 10 out of 10. Sometimes it needed to be an 11. And I think like you have to be willing to turn it up to 11 at times. And I'm not sure that they were.
- [68:03]
C
So like, it can be, it can be true, right? That, that Ohio State's defense, I think in no way shape or form lost them either of those two games. Right. But they kind of had to go win them for Ohio State and they obviously came up a step short. I think more, maybe more in the Miami game than the Indiana game.
- [68:21]
B
Yeah, yeah, you needed. And again. So anyway, we've had that conversation a million times. I'm done with it. But the reason that I thought it was like, are there lessons learned from it? And I, and I would say kind of no, because I don't, I don't think they believe there are lessons to be learned. Are there lessons learned from what we did wrong? From when we gave it 9.3 points per game.
- [68:43]
C
Game.
- [68:43]
B
No, there are none. I just talked to my NFL buddies and they said we were great. Okay. And I'm not saying that that's. I'm not saying I'm right and they're wrong, but I, I wanted to interrogate that line of questioning as much as I could. So I did my best and I'm done.
- [68:57]
C
Okay. All right.
- [68:59]
B
You're not mad? Are you mad? Or you're like, God, I gotta work with this guy.
- [69:01]
C
No, I'm not. I'm not mad. I, I, It's. I feel the same way. I think it's a difficult conversation to have because I'm sure that there are a lot of people have been listening, going like, 9.3. 9.3. What are you talking about? 9.3. You guys are crazy. And it's like, yeah, we might be. Yeah, you could be. You could be very correct about that.
- [69:19]
B
How about the two craziest things in my career covering Ohio State? I'm 9 and 3 Doug. And I'm also 9.3 Doug. Oh, wow.
- [69:26]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [69:27]
B
Oh, like, oh. I guess 9.3 points a game isn't good enough for French vanilla. What are we. It's like, it's not exactly what I mean, but I guess I'll own it. All right, so we are going to practice on Saturday. Practice five. We don't get to watch it, but guess who we get to talk to afterward. Jeremiah Cortez Hankton. That'll be fun.
- [69:48]
C
That will be fun. Excited about that? Some people were sneaking Jeremiah Smith interviews a pro day. Not us. We don't break. We don't break rules.
- [69:56]
B
I just thought I saw. Who do you think that's all I saw? The crustiest crusts of their all clay hall. And Tim May. Hey. Been doing this for five decades. They don't. They don't abide by any rules. The video got a lot of hits.
- [70:12]
C
Yeah.
- [70:12]
B
Good job by them. We're just jealous. Yeah.
- [70:15]
C
That's all it is.
- [70:16]
B
But I think we will come back on this channel, on this YouTube feed and this podcast feed on Saturday and have a little discussion about Jeremiah Smith. But I also will tell you the plan is to have a very heavy Jeremiah Smith discussion then on around the Shoe on this feed on Monday. We already have the guests lined up. I've told them to prepare for lots of Jeremiah Smith stuff because I think when we talk to Jeremiah Smith and so we'll talk about on Saturday. We'll talk it again on Monday. Like, we're Certainly gonna get into a little bit of like, what, what do you think you can do? What do you like, do you have goals? What do you want to be like? So we're gonna do on Monday, we're gonna do some over unders on yardage totals and catch totals and touchdown totals and best player in Ohio State history totals. Right. So, like, that's. We're gonna dive in deep on this fellow.
- [71:03]
C
There's a lot to get into there with him.
- [71:06]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And in the meantime, you have some offensive line, you have some stats that you've looked up that nobody else has looked up about offensive line play. That's going to make for a really good story. Over at Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com we want to talk about the number of new guys that are in here. We want to talk about the iron. Right, about the iron Buckeyes. We renamed the substack to the Bill and Doug Show Colon Premium Ohio State writing and talk, which I think somebody made fun of in our, in our subtech chat. And you said a caveman wrote that title. It is difficult. We're trying to convey every aspect of what we do at the substack, but it is a little clunky. I'm not sure you put a T shirt.
- [71:44]
C
I wouldn't put it, but I think it's funny. I, I own, I own the clunkiness. Yeah, it's fine.
- [71:49]
B
But the bottom line is it's the Bill and Doug show. Like, it's the Bill and Doug show here, it's the Bill and Doug show there. But it's not only talking, it's also writing. So we did what we did what we could. We had a big meeting about it. That's what we came up with. Thanks, you guys for being here. We'll see you over at the Substack. Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com 18 off an annual subscription. If you sign up right now, it's like 81 bucks for a year of this stuff. Or you can do the monthly thing, which is like 10 bucks a month, which I think is pretty good deal. Or you can just hang out here with us. And we're grateful that you are doing that. So we'll talk to you guys on Saturday. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Douglas Maurice. And that was the Bill and Doug Show. Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance.
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C
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B
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C
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B
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C
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B
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C
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B
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C
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