← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Inside Ohio State's comms breakdown at Michigan, Ryan Day's wink, and another layer of rivalry lore
00:41:00
Ryan Day anticipated Ohio State might have trouble with its sideline communication technology against Michigan? Why? How did the Buckeyes plan for it?
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- [00:02]
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- [00:55]
Bill Landis
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- [01:00]
Bill Landis
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- [01:19]
Doug Lamoris
They cried out who knew?
- [01:21]
Bill Landis
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- [01:32]
Doug Lamoris
Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lamoris and Bill Landis. Thanks to you guys for being with us. We're going to talk about communications issues for Ohio State at Michigan on Saturday, which nobody understands more about at this point than Bill Landis does. And we're going to talk about Orion Day. Wink. And we have some interesting things to discuss off off Ryan Day's Tuesday news conference that Brian, you know, in some ways look back on Ohio State's win over Michigan. In many ways look forward to Ohio State's 1, 2 versus game game versus Indiana in the Big Ten championship game on Saturday. And that's why we're here because we don't normally always do this reacting to Ryan Day on Tuesday, but we probably should today, right? Bill?
- [02:12]
Bill Landis
Yes, I think, I think Tuesday was was interesting enough that it warrants it. Yeah.
- [02:17]
Doug Lamoris
So I'm also just gonna do this very quick because I just want to make one thing very clear and, and I'm not trying to be a jerk about this like I thought it mattered that you and I were at the Ryan Day news conference today because lots of people had chances to ask about the communications issues and nobody did until you did it. And then I followed up and we got a second part of that and I think it's the most interesting thing that came out of that. And there's two reasons that we get to be at that news conference, because we are an independent venture at this point. And so we want to thank everybody here. If you're watching this on YouTube, if you're listening to this on a podcast, you help make it possible for us to be there. We hope you're serving you correctly. But if you want us to continue to be able to cover Ohio State, like, subscribe, tell a friend about the Bill and Doug show, we greatly appreciate it. Second, even more importantly are the people who are paying us at Substack to do this, and those are our Substack subscribers. And so we just would invite this audience. It's this time of the year. It's the Big Ten championship game. There's, there's a run ahead for Ohio State, more likely than not. If you want to join us on substack. Billanddugosu.substack.com if you've only consumed us through this, thank you. But maybe you'd be interested in trying that even for a short period of time. There's monthly subscriptions. There's yearly subscriptions. Billanddugosu.substack.com it's just the nuts and bolts of, we can't do this if it doesn't make us some money, Bill. Like, it can't be our jobs. We can't be there on Tuesday doing this. We're not currently employed. We have been in the past, but we're not right now employed by a large media company that's paying our way and, and, and giving us all the normal things associated with the job. So we have to do it on our own. We're grateful to be doing it and we just want to say thank you to everybody, but also, like, encourage everybody to help us spread the word. Yes.
- [04:04]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so. If you are a subscriber, maybe tell people what you like about it. If you're not, give us a shot. The monthly thing's easy, right? Like, you got to shell out a couple dollars, I guess. But if you don't like it, you can cancel after a month. Right. And, and, you know, if we're not for you, we're not for you. But yeah, you know, Ohio State's getting ready for a playoff push and we hope you. Hope you join us for the ride. Yeah.
- [04:24]
Doug Lamoris
And the other thing is, if you want to go visit our friends@roback.com you've heard the spiel. R H O-B-A C K.com holiday shopping, do it in a couple clicks get your friends and family classy Ohio State gear that they'll be proud to wear. From roback.com 20 off with the code B A D20. Bill Landis, you one more thing.
- [04:45]
Bill Landis
Sorry. Oh yeah. The 14 day free trial that we were offering is still active through this.
- [04:51]
Doug Lamoris
Friday on substance for this, for the substack people. So if they want to do that, they can do what? If they want to sample these next couple days for free, it's not just go to the sub stack. What's the code?
- [05:03]
Bill Landis
It is so it's the URL billandgosu.substack.com backslash the game special because we tied it to the Michigan game. But it is good up until this Friday before the Big Ten championship. And if you sign up by then you can get a 14 day free trial which would take you, I guess, like not to the playoff game, but like kind of like midway through the, the playoff prep for Ohio State.
- [05:25]
Doug Lamoris
Okay. All right, so we apologize. We don't normally like to do a bunch of ads and stuff and promote stuff right at the beginning of the show because we want to get into ball talk. But sometimes, just like the SEC has to be about midness, sometimes we have to be about business. Bill Landis, why did you ask Ryan Day about the communication stuff?
- [05:45]
Bill Landis
Because nobody else had up to that point. It got pretty late in the press conference and I was going to ask him something else about the offensive line and then it just kind of got to me and you had already gone and I just wasn't sure it was going to get asked. You know that on the broadcast they said that Ohio State, they noted it. I think it was like 10 minutes, about 10 minutes in the fourth quarter. Joel Clatt noted, like, boy, Julian Saiyan's running to the sideline to get the plays. I wonder if his headset's down. And then they said no. And then they said, actually, yeah, his headset was down. That happens from time to time. Right? We've seen it happen in football games. But then there's also stuff like I saw on social media mostly on Sunday, a little bit on Monday of, of like video from the crowd of people trying on the sideline trying to get that figured out. And it looked like more than just like, oh crap, Julian sayings like speaker and his helmet's not working. And it turned out that Ohio State's communication coach to coach and player to coach was like totally wiped out for portions of the second half against Michigan.
- [06:44]
Doug Lamoris
So there was some of that again, fan video. I think you Saw Quinn Temple, who is Ryan Day's right hand man, kind of trying to talk with, with people in Michigan clothing on the sideline. And again, like just the type of conversation you're explaining is sort of like, like this has to, this is a thing and it needs to be addressed. And in the heat of the moment in a game that is it. It was not like. And no big deal. What are you gonna do? It was kind of a thing, right?
- [07:11]
Bill Landis
Yeah, they were scrambling, at least it looked like it through that video. It was not something that on Saturday I was paying a bunch of attention to because the game was still happening. I, I certainly took note of Julian saying, you know, traveling back and forth from the sideline the way that he was, but I didn't know like the extent of actually what was happening really until today when we got to ask Ryan Day about it. It's something that impacted both sides of the ball, obviously. And from what it sounded like, it sounded like maybe like they, they lost it, they got it back and then they lost it again. Like it was kind of a little bit of an ongoing thing they were dealing with for, for a chunk of the second half.
- [07:47]
Doug Lamoris
Yeah. And you think that does affect the ball, right?
- [07:52]
Bill Landis
Yeah. Throws off your whole chain of communication when you're, when you're trying to get plays called into the game. So the, I think people have seen before, it's. It like Lincoln Riley, actually it looks funny watch Lincoln Riley during a game and he's calling the place for usc. He uses a walkie talkie. And I think at times you've seen like Jim Knowles uses a walkie talkie. And that is sort of like the backup to the normal headsets the coaches wear. Because the headset you can talk to the quarterback or with whichever player on the defense is the green dot helmet that gets the communication. And for some reason if that fails, then you have the walkie talkie to at least communicate to the player. But the walkie talkie does not account for coach to coach communication. So Brian Hartline, for instance, up in the box who's calling the plays, could have relayed the play to Julian saying through the headset. But then no one else would have known what the play call was. No one else, no one else on the sideline. So what Ohio State ended up doing was Julian would come to the sideline and Ryan Day had to call the place for a little bit and Ryan Day was giving the, the play to Julian. And I actually couldn't tell, I couldn't tell this on offense. I Was like trying to watch them all 22 and see what was going on. Whether or not the offensive staff was like huddling closer together on the sidelines so they could get all the personnel stuff sorted out too. But they were definitely doing that on defense. Like, I was watching some clips of the defense from the fourth quarter where it's like Matt Patricia with a walkie talkie, the signalers next to him because they can hear him and then relay the signals to the field. But then also all of the defensive assistants are like kind of like huddled around him to figure out who's going out onto the field. And usually they're like a little more dispersed than that because Matt Patricia doesn't need to be standing next to Larry Johnson to say, like, hey, put Taiwan Malone in the game. But in that case, he had to. So, like, it changes where your position on the sideline, how you communicate everything, coach to coach, and obviously how you communicate everything to the players. And you can even tell like when the offense was huddling, they were longer huddles because sometimes you'll see Ohio State huddle and it's like they're not, they're not super tight and they kind of disperse quickly or they'll disperse like by position group. They were super tight and Julian saying, I think was speaking longer than he normally does, and then they dispersed as a group. So that was different too.
- [10:08]
Doug Lamoris
Okay. Okay. And I think a thing that a lot of people have been wondering about is if one sideline is having communication issues, what is the protocol about what should happen on the other sideline? And I, I think there is maybe. Well, there's, there's just people out there who just like college football and they just like to watch the game and they don't know anything about the rules, sometimes be included. What is your understanding of how that works at different levels of football? And maybe what the protocol would have been in this particular game for the Buckeyes and Wolverines. Did Michigan sideline have to go as well if Ohio States was down?
- [10:47]
Bill Landis
It is my understanding that they have to, but I, I will say that I, I don't know that 100 for a fact. That's like the follow up we need to do on this is with the Big Ten to ask them that in the NFL that is the case. Okay. Yeah, in the NFL that definitely happens. And I, I, I think we, I know that like that didn't happen immediately in this game for the Ohio State Michigan game, but I think, I think, yes, that is supposed to be what's happened. But there was, there was certainly a time during the game how long I couldn't tell you. But, but a, a time where Ohio State's communications were down and Michigan's were not.
- [11:24]
Doug Lamoris
Okay, okay. What did you think of Ryan Day's answer when you asked him the question?
- [11:37]
Bill Landis
I was a little surprised by the answer. I, I thought when I asked the question I was going to get sort of logistics. We did this because of this and we didn't really get that. He, he said like, you know, we had a wristband plan and we had a, another player. Julian came to the sideline but like didn't get into the weeds on that. Most of what he said was, oh yeah, we expected that to happen.
- [11:59]
Doug Lamoris
Yeah.
- [11:59]
Bill Landis
So we, so we put these contingency plans in place and I was like, well, that's interesting because you didn't have to say, you didn't have to say that. You could have just said, here's what you didn't have to say. Yeah, we expected it and we devised a plan on Friday which was his answer to your follow up. The specific, the specificity of Friday before the game. So, yeah, I was pretty surprised that, that he went in that direction. I don't know. Were you surprised by it?
- [12:25]
Doug Lamoris
I was surprised by it, yeah. And because I. So I. Well, do you trust me to try to do this? We do not currently have a producer who's like alongside us doing all this stuff. The producer. So can I be honest about two things? I have so much crap in my Google account that my Google account is out of memory and they keep giving me messages like, your Google Drive is 98% full. You've got to do something. And my computer itself is so full that I can't even really download anything anymore. So I am at a non functional part of my existence right now. But I think I can share the screen and play.
- [13:03]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it.
- [13:07]
Doug Lamoris
Give me. Content officer Bill Landis comes to the rescue.
- [13:12]
Bill Landis
Okay.
- [13:12]
Doug Lamoris
Because we can do, we can do share screen or we can download the video.
- [13:20]
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- [14:14]
Bill Landis
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- [14:47]
Doug Lamoris
Guess what I'll do. I'll just start talking until you're ready. Here. Here's what I think I was more surprised by. I think I was actually more surprised by the reveal of they planned for it than the idea of. Ryan Day told us that they planned for it because to me the idea of we're going on the road we now know. And if people don't like realize this part of the deal with the Connor Stallions cheating scandal was that he was stealing signals because there were signals to be stolen because people were holding up boards on the side of the and doing hand signals and things on this, on, on the sideline that you then could look at and then that's what's signaling into play. And that was before college football got to the point where the NFL had been for a long time, where the play is being signaled in through communication in the quarterback's helmet or through communication through the player on the defense who was able to do that. So that's the type of cheating that happened with Connor Stallion specifically. Like that can't happen anymore, Bill. Like the game has changed. So the idea, I guess that no, we actually practiced for the comms to go down. That was more surprising to me and then that he shared it. But then I guess the idea of well if we know and it's one of these things like if you want to get into a back and forth of like did they cheat or did they not? Like the NCAA did a report and you can go read the report and then you can, you can argue about penalties and should it have been more. But like the report says they did it. So if the report says they did it then we'll just say that they did it. So if they did that this would be if you were going to do something like that in the current era, I guess this is what it would be right. It would be messing with the comms. So we're not saying that's what happened, but we're just trying to get in Ryan Day's head of why would you plan for this? Why would you have a contingency for this? And I guess that's why.
- [16:44]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah, I think so. That's the next logical step. But it was interesting to me and I'm not sure if your mind went here either. When Ryan Day said we had contingencies in place and then described those contingencies, they were not signals from the sideline, they were wristbands and Julian coming over to get the play from Ryan Day directly. So like even like in their. And that's a paranoia. I don't mean that pejoratively, but it is paranoid paranoia to plan for this happening. The next step was not. Let's start signaling and plays again.
- [17:17]
Doug Lamoris
That is interesting. That, that, that did not. I did not bump on that. I wasn't smart enough to catch that. So. Okay, so do you have the first answer to your question or is this the two videos combined?
- [17:28]
Bill Landis
I have. I think this is just the answer to your follow up, the wink.
- [17:33]
Doug Lamoris
Okay. Because we do have in our slack. We have the other one too. That's in. In the one that we share with Mike if you want to grab that one. I shared that one as well.
- [17:43]
Bill Landis
So.
- [17:43]
Doug Lamoris
So we could run both of those. So why don't we run yours first? Because what happened is you. And again, this is late in the news conference. And again, part of the reason that we're on here, like doing a little bit of business is because we want to be at those news conferences. But if it's Bill and Doug writing on a yellow legal pad and having conversations with themselves in their basement, that's not a media outlet. So they don't let you in to the Ohio State news conference to do that. Like, we want to be there and we have to have. We have to be. We have to be real enough to be able to be let in there. And like, you guys again, are what makes it us be real. So, okay, you have the first answer.
- [18:22]
Bill Landis
It's up, it's uploading. Once it's okay. It takes a second. Yeah.
- [18:26]
Doug Lamoris
So. So when you ask the question, you thought the answer would be what? Give us the 10 second version of like, Bill asked the question. Hey, I'm Bill Landis. I'm. I'm Philly Billy. I'm from Philadelphia. Go Birds. Ryan, how did you deal with the communications issues on Saturday? Now you Be Ryan Day.
- [18:45]
Bill Landis
I'm not going to do an impersonation. I, I thought, I thought he would say like, yeah, Brian couldn't talk to us for a while, so, so I had to call the plays and that's why you saw Julian walking over to me. And we couldn't talk to each other as coaches either. So it, you know, it made things a little more difficult on us. Found a way to get through it. Something like that.
- [19:04]
Doug Lamoris
Which still would be interesting.
- [19:05]
Bill Landis
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:06]
Doug Lamoris
But. But yeah, he went past that. And again, as we sort of talked about this, it's possible that this situation, Ohio State might be more prepared on both sides of the ball than most teams to handle this because a Brian Hartline is the offensive play caller up in the box, but the guy on the sideline is the head coach who used to call plays at Ohio State for a long time and it's still his offense that he designed. So if you can't talk to Brian Hartline, Ryan Day can call plays and then the defensive coordinator is on the sideline. That in a lot of situations that's not the case. So they had the real guy on the sideline for defense and the guy who's in charge of the offense anyway. And so they could handle this better than if it was kind of a non play calling head coach in any capacity and both coordinators in the box. You really could be screwed by something like this happening. Right. It's not that the other coaches wouldn't be capable, but it's that they've never really done it before. It's not what they're accustomed to. Whereas Day and Patricia on the sideline in this moment were very accustomed to obviously seriously doing this.
- [20:05]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think tremendously helpful, I think to, to just sort of look into like the, the preference of Matt Patricia to be on the field, which like I asked about and I wrote about after the game because I just like I thought his presence on the field was key in Ohio State, like getting adjustments made to the summit that Michigan was doing running the ball. Never like fathom the eye.
- [20:27]
Doug Lamoris
Yeah.
- [20:28]
Bill Landis
Like, oh yeah, it matters. He's down on the field too, because by the way, he can't talk to. I think it's Sunny Styles who wears the green dot on defense. But he actually was able to because he had talkie. That's the other thing. Like so Matt Patricia on the sideline has the walkie talkie, but up in the booth they, they had one. And the way it was explained to me was like quarterbacks coach Billy Fessler was up there and he could still talk to Julian through the walkie talkie, but there was no sense in having him give Julian the play because as I said before, like, no one else on the staff like, knew would. Would know what that play call was. So it made sense for Ryan Day to call to play.
- [20:59]
Doug Lamoris
But.
- [20:59]
Bill Landis
But I do think Billy Fessler, because you're not. When you have until 15 seconds, like, the play ends, the line opens back up. You have until the play clock gets to 15 seconds and the line dies. You don't have to only give. We can say whatever you want. It's one way communication. But as a coach, you can say like, hey, they're in this personnel, Watch out for this, look for this when we do this, like that kind of thing without giving the actual play call. So they were still able to get that kind of information to Julian, in theory, via Billy Fessler or Brian Hartline up in the booth, whichever one of them had the walkie talkie in that moment. But the play itself had to come from Ryan Day. Yeah, so, okay, I have, I have the videos ready.
- [21:37]
Doug Lamoris
Okay, so do you want to run them back to. Are they. You want to run them back to back. You want to run the first one and then talk and then do the second one?
- [21:44]
Bill Landis
The latter, because I don't have the full. I don't have them connected. I have them separate.
- [21:47]
Doug Lamoris
Okay, so this is the first one. This is your question to Ryan Day about dealing with the communications breakdown on the sideline Saturday.
- [21:57]
Bill Landis
Place for a moment. Just how did you work through that? Yeah, yeah, we lost communication there in the second half. But the good news was, was that earlier that week, I thought there may be an inkling that that may happen. So we had a plan for it. We had a wristband plan and then we had. We would bring Julian over and I was, you know, just getting us through it until we get the headsets back, back up and running. It took a little while to get done, but yeah, just by chance, you know, we. We had a plan for it and so we were ready to go and it happened right next to us.
- [22:31]
Doug Lamoris
Just by chance, we had a plan for it. Right. And you could even see if you're listening on a podcast, not able to watch that. And we hope you could hear it. Just so you know, like, there's a lot of outlets, a lot of great outlets that cover Ohio State who have, like, they have a nice camera and they plug into the. Is it the alt box, the malt box, what do you call it? Malt Box with an M. Like a malt? Like a malt. Like it's a milkshake made with water. Right? Is that the deal? No. Do people drink malt? No one should drink a malt. Drink a milkshake. So you plug into the malt box and so, like, just. We just don't do that. We sort of choose not to do it. It's just me and you. We don't really have the resources to do it. So that's just me. That's just my cell phone video from my seat that I don't take video of everything that Ryan Day says. But when I heard that you were asking about the comms, I was like, maybe video this. So apologies if, if the sound was a little light and the video was, was not all the way there. He has a little bit of a smirk on his face the moment he starts answering your question.
- [23:25]
Bill Landis
He does? Yeah. And that's sort of when you knew, like, I, I feel like he even had it as I was asking the question. It's like, you see that come across his face. You're like, okay, he's going to say something a little different than what I was expecting here. Still not entirely sure where exactly it was going to go, but, but in that answer, like, it kind of got, I got lost a little bit. He said, like, I asked, I asked, did you have to call it? And he didn't, like, say explicitly, yes, but he said, like, I was getting us through that, which is like his way of saying, like, I had to call the plays in those moments.
- [23:55]
Doug Lamoris
Okay.
- [23:56]
Bill Landis
Yeah, but no, definitely had a, definitely had a smirk on his face as he was going through it. Yeah.
- [24:02]
Doug Lamoris
Okay, so when he finishes that answer, are you satisfied with the answer?
- [24:12]
Bill Landis
No, no, no. My, my hope was kind of that it wouldn't get followed up on necessarily. I'm glad that it was because we got the wink. But once he said that, my response was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to go ask more about this after the fact.
- [24:30]
Doug Lamoris
Oh, okay.
- [24:31]
Bill Landis
But no, but, but. Because it wasn't followed up on immediately until you, I think, rightfully kind of read the room and interjected and asked the follow up.
- [24:43]
Doug Lamoris
Okay, so, so I didn't want, I don't want to. I, I, it was like, I should have because that's, it's a great balance. Right? It's like sometimes you want to get stuff out to the world. It's like, this needs to be on the public record. And then sometimes it's like, I'm gonna go A little bit extra on the side because I've been around and I can go talk to the guy. Inkling. He used the word inkling and it was just like, what does inkling mean? Why does. Would he have an inkling against Illinois? Would you have an inkling against ou? Do you have an inkling about Kurt Signetti in Indiana on Saturday? Or is an inkling Michigan specific?
- [25:24]
Bill Landis
So Michigan stadium specific?
- [25:30]
Doug Lamoris
So then, yes, the follow up where I did not raise my hand. I just shouted to get the inkling question and here's that. Sorry to interrupt. Inkling. Why did you have that inkling?
- [25:45]
Bill Landis
Oh, we're just ready for everything. He's got to be ready for. For anything. And you know, I, when you go into any big game, you're always trying to put contingency plans in place for anything that could possibly happen. And so, yeah, we just, I was in here on Friday and I think some of the guys in the staff were looking at me sideways like, why would you think that would happen? I just, I don't know. We just got to be ready, be ready for anything. That's funny how your mind works.
- [26:12]
Doug Lamoris
My God. So if you're, if you're listening on a podcast and you have not seen it, who cares what he said? He ended it with a wink.
- [26:22]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I love that. It's funny how your mind works. Yeah, it's funny. He were compelled by some higher power he was compelled by some higher power to determine that he had to do that. Right?
- [26:38]
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- [26:44]
Doug Lamoris
Wood thrush, three o'. Clock.
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- [26:55]
Bill Landis
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- [27:02]
Doug Lamoris
Really?
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Bill Landis
Who knew?
- [27:04]
Doug Lamoris
Okay, was that you or the birds?
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- [27:41]
Doug Lamoris
So we had. We have spent a lot of time talking Both here on our YouTube and podcast shows and on our substack shows just for our Substack subscribers, which, by the way, you get two extra shows a week if you're a Substack subscriber. Billandduggosu.substack.com and this week you actually got three extra shows because we had, we had took. We take questions and comments from the Substack subscribers. We had, we do this thing we call Sunday Sound off. On Sunday morning we did two hours of that. On Sunday we had so many questions that we, we couldn't get them all in. And so then we did another round on. On Monday for another 90 minutes. So we did three hours and three and a half hours of reaction on substack to this and we talked a lot about that. We thought one of the defining things for Ohio State coming out of this win over Michigan was Ryan Day saying both on the field right after the game and then in his post game news conference that they were going to win with humility. And we thought, do you believe that's a defining piece of this Ohio State Michigan game in the 121st edition of the rivalry?
- [28:41]
Bill Landis
I think it's the defining piece. Yeah.
- [28:43]
Doug Lamoris
Okay, so now I think we might have. The defining piece is win with humility and number two is the wink.
- [28:52]
Bill Landis
Yes. Yeah. And I do wonder, like, I think, I wonder if, if one sort of like informs the other, right. Like this thing happens during the game. You're, you're planned for, but also like, you probably can't help but sort of like roll your eyes that it's happening whether it's intentional or not.
- [29:08]
Doug Lamoris
Right.
- [29:08]
Bill Landis
Like, of course this is happening kind of thing. And, and if you're like a competitor on the field, I think anybody's mind would immediately go to like, well, this is happening. They're doing this to us. Like, they're, they're trying to get us off our game kind of thing. And I think probably in Ryan Day's mind that just contributes to the sort of like underhanded nature with, with which like Michigan has kind of handled itself over the last four years. And, and I think probably reinforce the win with humility thing at the end. Yeah.
- [29:36]
Doug Lamoris
Which is so like, you know, win with humility is like sort of high road. And then the wink is like, you know, but we also know what's up because you don't want to be naive. You know, it's not, it's the high road. It's not the yellow brick road. It's not like la, la La la. I'm in lollipop land. Like, hey, it's just, it's. We know what's up, but we're not gonna really engage. And so I do. And listen, there's a lot of this stuff that like, again, as you had sort of talked about in the past, it's like, didn't you say last week that Woody and Beau thought they were all spying on each other?
- [30:09]
Bill Landis
Like, anyway, a question was asked of Ryan Day last week about spies in the building and Woody and Bo being constantly paranoid of one another going into the game.
- [30:18]
Doug Lamoris
Yeah.
- [30:19]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [30:19]
Doug Lamoris
So do you think this is the wink? Like more in line. So this is, this is one of those things because they're sort of like the, I mean literally like the wink, wink, nudge, nudge of a rivalry that all this stuff is what makes rivalries great. It's what separates college football from the NFL. It's that it's all this stuff. It's. It's stealing the mascot, right? It's like that, like there's a version of, of this kind of thing that is part of the pageantry and passion of college football. So is, is the wink more that or when there is an actual cheating scandal and there's a report and that is fresh and new and many people justifiably think it had an absolute effect on the outcome of games. Is the wink in that category or is it somewhere in between? Because there's like a version of cheating that's sort of like, haha, isn't college football great? You know, like everybody's out looking for an edge and then there's a form of cheating that's like, there's a report on it and people got show causes and like, this is serious business and it went above and beyond. Where's the wink fit in there?
- [31:30]
Bill Landis
It's a good question. I don't know because I think if this like communications thing had happened in a vacuum and not in the same rivalry as the Connor Stallion stuff, I do think it maybe could be laughed off a little bit. It's like, boy, is the rivalry wacky kind of kind of thing. Right up there with like, what was the, the game where the high states players all got diarrhea on the train or something like that, dirty water game like stuff, stuff like that. But because of everything that preceded it, it just sort of gets lumped in with the characterization of Michigan that it earned because like you said, there's, there's reporting on it. It's not merely a theory about what happened. So I don't know, I don't know that you'll wink about the Stallion stuff. That feels like a. That feels like a step stepper. Five beyond. I think winking and saying, boy, isn't the rivalry crazy kind of. Kind of thing? But also, it certainly. It was done by Ryan Day on Tuesday with, like, a nod toward that.
- [32:34]
Doug Lamoris
Right.
- [32:35]
Bill Landis
Like, of course. Of course. On his mind when he's, when he's talking about having contingencies for this and the wink is just sort of, like, annoying.
- [32:41]
Doug Lamoris
You get.
- [32:41]
Bill Landis
You guys know what I'm talking about when I, when I say this thing.
- [32:44]
Doug Lamoris
Yeah. And it's hard because already, like, this is up on social media. Of course we put it up and there's. There's some Michigan fans that I've seen on Twitter, like, responding to it, and they're mad about it. And listen, we understand, like, you support your team and the other side supports their team, and that's. That's part of it. We understand that, like, nobody's. Nobody has a clear head about this when you're knee deep in the rivalry. But it is one of those things. I do think it's like, it's. If you're mad about the wink, like, so here's. Here are the facts as we understand them. Ryan Day and Ohio State prepared for the possibility that their communication might go out at Michigan Stadium on Saturday. And their communication went out.
- [33:31]
Bill Landis
Now, we.
- [33:32]
Doug Lamoris
Nobody has definitive proof. Nobody could say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was purposeful. I'm certainly not saying that. You are not saying that. But it's when you prepare for something to happen and then it happens. It is quite a coincidence because I think we could ask Ryan Day in your history of being a head coach, and it's only been a couple years of this. Is this the second year of this second year? Yeah. Have you ever had this happen before? And we could maybe ask the Big Ten and I want to talk about the reporting on this a little bit. Like, do you. Are you aware of how many times this has happened to a Big Ten team in the last two years? Right. And so that still doesn't mean it was purposeful. But also at the moment, do we. Are we clear on. So anyway, that's enough to create the wink. We prepared for it and it happened.
- [34:26]
Bill Landis
Maybe the guy who bumped in the J.T. barrett with his camera also bumped into the plug that was connecting all the headsets together.
- [34:35]
Doug Lamoris
There's a lot of. There's just sometimes there's. There's. There's plug bumping going on you can't, sometimes you can't control your plug bump. It just happens. Do we have confirmation or an understanding of whether or not Michigan lost communication or not?
- [34:50]
Bill Landis
No, as far as I know, they did not. They did not lose it. I think eventually it got to the point where maybe they, theirs was taken down so that they were on level footing with Ohio State, but I also don't even know that for a fact. That's, that's some of the stuff we need to iron out with the Big Ten, I think.
- [35:06]
Doug Lamoris
And so like, in terms of trying to advance this story, and we certainly will do our best to contribute to this, I would imagine there are people, well resourced people at large media companies who also might pursue this. But we will do our best to pursue this. I think it's worth asking the Big Ten clarification on what are the rules regarding this. If it happens to one team, what should immediately happen to the other side and how is that done to ensure fairness? And whose responsibility is that? Is that a line of, is that a line of questioning that's worth asking the Big Ten about?
- [35:39]
Bill Landis
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think, I think that. And I think a couple things, right? Is there any, I think what you said, right. How, how often does it happen? Is there any documentation of that? And then, and then I think it's like, and it's just because of where it was. Like, is there anything about Michigan Stadium where, like, does it happen more or doesn't like, is that the only time it's happened? I think that's important to figure out too.
- [36:00]
Doug Lamoris
Right. And then I think you could ask and I don't think they would tell us, like, will the Big Ten look into this in any way to see if it was like, why did it happen? And not even to say was it nefarious, Just like, well, why did it happen? Let's make sure it doesn't happen again. Let's help our, our, our conference members figure out the details of if something went wrong. We don't want this to happen. Let's make sure it never happens again. What can we do to help as the conference office. Will that be done? Are you trying to problem solve this? And then the side of it is, of course, could you try to find out whether it was purposeful or not? That to me, unless the only way that you would find out that I think that it's purposeful if there, if you found somebody on the Michigan side who had proof of it, who wanted to make it public. So now we're not saying that it was purposeful. But that side of it, to definitively find that out and investigate that, I don't exactly. I don't know where to start there, Bill. I don't know that you and I are going to be driving up to Ann Arbor on Wednesday and shoving microphones and people's questions in the parking lot to be like, who cut the communications and, and who knew about it? But maybe we should.
- [37:09]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I, I. And maybe, maybe you'd feel a little bit of a sense of urgency to do that. Had the offended team, like, lost, but they didn't.
- [37:17]
Doug Lamoris
So.
- [37:17]
Bill Landis
Yeah, so I don't, I don't know that we're going up there, but we'll. We'll try to figure out what we can.
- [37:22]
Doug Lamoris
But this goes in the lore.
- [37:25]
Bill Landis
This absolutely goes into lore. Yeah.
- [37:27]
Doug Lamoris
Even the fact of the matter, Ohio State. Oh, man. Remember then 25, when Ohio State went up there and their communications got lost in the second half? Yeah, man, that was crazy. Do you think it was on purpose? I don't know, man. Remember when Ryan Day was talking about and he did that wink? Oh, yeah, right. That's some version of that. Right.
- [37:45]
Bill Landis
Part of me, part of me wonders, I wonder if we could. Because it was funny to me. Like, like clearly their communications were down. Like, it was evident. And then Joel Clatt sort of like, wonders out loud about it, and then they're like, oh, we're getting reporting from Jenny Taff that that's actually not the case. What sideline was Jenny on when she got that information? And then when they corrected the record, what sideline was she on then?
- [38:05]
Doug Lamoris
Right. Who did she want?
- [38:08]
Bill Landis
She's one person. She's one person. Right. She. And she has to roam the entire field, which is covering the game. It's hard. But if you check with somebody on the Michigan sidelines, like, hey, your highest comps down. Like, what? I don't know what you're talking about. And then you go. And then you go on the other. Then you go to the other side, like, hey, are you calms down? Yeah, yeah, they're down. So I don't know. I wouldn't mind asking about that if I could.
- [38:29]
Doug Lamoris
That's a really good question. A subpoena for the All American girl, Jenny Taft. Please state your full name for the record. The All American girl, Jenny Taft. On which sideline were you standing when you were first told the communications were not down? Because she even could be on the Ohio State sideline asking somebody in a Michigan hat who's standing near the communication box, who seems to Be in charge of it. Hey.
- [38:56]
Bill Landis
Holding a plug in his hand. Oh, what.
- [39:02]
Doug Lamoris
Is that? Oh, it's too bad. Like, it's hard to do Halloween costumes based off the Ohio State Michigan game because you got to wait 11 months.
- [39:10]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [39:10]
Doug Lamoris
But if, if next year there's Ohio State fans walking around, you just put on a Michigan hat and you carry a cord. It's like, who are you? I'm the cut comms guy from Ann Arbor. What do you mean? Right. Oh, man, it's too good. Like, did anybody from Ohio State ever dress up as Connor stallions for Halloween? Or was it like. I guess that was ongoing for two years. They're probably people who put on like light up sunglasses and Central Michigan hats, right? Somebody.
- [39:36]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, I bet. Yeah.
- [39:40]
Doug Lamoris
Like push a vacuum cleaner around, right? Like, this is kind of science. But now I'm the plug guy. It's like American Gothic, but the guy's holding a plug instead of work.
- [39:49]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:51]
Doug Lamoris
It's plug guy. And then like, and then it's like Sharon Morris standing there. Ann Arbor Gothic. What? I got a plug. Okay. Are we good? And then, by the way, hey, it seems like The Ohio State's two best players are going to play in the Big Ten championship game. Should we have led with that 36 minutes ago?
- [40:09]
Bill Landis
Maybe. Well, I think it was Friday. Was asked about it on Sunday. They did a coaches teleconference on Sunday with Ryan Day and Kurt Signetti where Ryan Day said, I think something along the lines of like, they came out of the game pretty good. And Cardinal Tate and Jeremiah Smith are looking forward to playing in the Big Ten championship. But then there was a follow up asked of Ryan Day on Tuesday. He said they came out of the game and we're in a better place now than we were last week. So we're looking for a full week of work and then we'll go from there.
- [40:43]
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Doug Lamoris
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Bill Landis
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Doug Lamoris
Really?
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Bill Landis
Who knew?
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Doug Lamoris
Okay. Was that you or the birds?
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- [41:46]
Doug Lamoris
Which is. I mean, that's for Ohio State fans. That's great news. And that. That's like a. That's actually a pretty good little, like, okay, well, that's how serious. Maybe it was a week ago and. And playing in the game and. And playing a great number of snapshots. It didn't make it worse. So that's good news. And I just.
- [42:02]
Bill Landis
I will say I didn't think Jeremiah was limping after the game.
- [42:06]
Doug Lamoris
Oh, okay. I mean, it's just one of those. Again, we've had a couple people, like, who would be like, ah, the limps were fake. And it's like, I don't. I don't know what to tell you. Like, again, when he stood up after the UCLA game, like, there were no cameras on him initially, and I wasn't the only reporter following him, but there weren't 50 of us. So if he was like, fake limping for my cell phone.
- [42:27]
Bill Landis
Sorry, that's not what I was implying. I'm not. I wasn't implying that he was fake limping prior to that.
- [42:31]
Doug Lamoris
No, no, no, I know you're not implying it, but it's like, so that was like a real limp then. So my. I'm saying, like, some people thought, oh, he was fake limping then. It's like. Well, no, it wasn't like there was a camera in his face the whole time. Like, when he could barely get up off the bench and was initially super stiff. That couldn't be for show because there's no one to show it to except your intrepid reporter. So. But now to see that, like. So I think that was a legitimate limp after ucla. The last time he played in a game, at the end of that game, he was really limping. Now he played against Michigan. And to what you saw, you say.
- [43:05]
Bill Landis
He looked better after the Michigan game than he did after the UCLA game.
- [43:08]
Doug Lamoris
Yeah. So that's like. That's important information. So. Because the thing with Carnell is, like, Carnell just didn't play for three weeks, but Jeremiah had played. And then when he played, it seemed that something was worse from playing. He wasn't really limping before that game. And then he was limping a lot after. So maybe he was just stiff, maybe it was just cold, whatever. But that's good news to that you didn't see a limp after Michigan. Like is very relevant information.
- [43:34]
Bill Landis
Yeah. And actually like the way that Ryan Day told it after the game, it really did sound like, I think our assumption all along was that Jeremiah was going to play and Carnell was the one that was a little more up in the air. It sounded like as they went through the week that Jeremiah might have been the one that was a little more up in the air just based off what they were able to do during the week. And then I think you'd probably say like watching the game, Jeremiah played like, had a huge touchdown catch. He had three catches. Like Carnell sort of looked like his normal explosive self. And I thought Jeremiah looked maybe like a step like off of that than he normally does.
- [44:06]
Doug Lamoris
Okay. Okay. All right. So we have a lot coming this week. We're gonna have a big game breakdown here on this YouTube and podcast feedback. Ohio State, Indiana, both sides of the ball. That will include our game pick that will come out on Thursday. We'll have our playoff reactions here on Tuesday night. The the latest college football playoff rankings that the second to last ones before they reveal the actual bracket on Sunday, the day after the conference championship game. So Bill, you and I will react to that on Tuesday night. Wednesday we will have our substack show where we're going to be talking with our Substack subscribers about what they think of Indiana, what they think of the Big Ten championship game, how much do they care about it, how much are they looking forward to it. If you want to be able to listen or to watch that, you can do so@billandduggosu.substack.com you will have an interview Thursday morning also here on this feed that should interest people.
- [44:56]
Bill Landis
Yeah, Taylor Layman, who covers Indiana for Bite Sized Bison on Substack, he will join me. We'll talk a little bit about the Hoosiers to you and I are going to break it down but it's always nice to have an expert's view on things too. He is, he is. He is an expert on Indiana. Really good with like the advanced a statistical analysis of college football too. So should be a good conversation.
- [45:17]
Doug Lamoris
And then Friday national picks. So a lot of stuff coming here, a lot of stuff that we'll be writing on the sub stack and just again grateful that you guys let us hang out with you and talk ball. Talk Buckeyes. Good job, Bill Landis getting to the bottom of it. You're gonna call the Big Ten. Big Ten office here. We got like eight minutes before. But we have an hour and eight minutes because they're in central time.
- [45:36]
Bill Landis
They're on Central time.
- [45:37]
Doug Lamoris
Yeah, we'll put them on a conference call. Hey, Big Ten office. For now, thanks again to you guys. He's Bill Landis. I'm Doug lemarisse. And that was the Bill and Doug Show.
- [45:52]
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Doug Lamoris
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Bill Landis
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Bill Landis
Really? Who knew?
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Doug Lamoris
Okay, was that you or the birds?
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