Notre Dame vs. the Big Ten; Indiana respect; 4 perfect conference champs? College Football Playoff

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk

Episode: Notre Dame vs. the Big Ten; Indiana respect; 4 perfect conference champs? College Football Playoff
Date: October 15, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises & Bill Landis
Podcast Network: Blue Wire

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Episode Overview

Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis break down the evolving landscape of college football’s playoff race in 2025, focusing on the Big Ten’s playoff contenders, Notre Dame’s positioning, increased parity (outside of Ohio State’s dominance), the possibility of four undefeated conference champions, and the chaos/wildcard potential introduced by the expanded 12-team playoff format. The conversation is lively, analytical, and occasionally sardonic, with a persistent focus on the implications for Ohio State and its fans.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The New Playoff Reality: “Play-In Games” Everywhere

[02:49–04:53]

• Doug and Bill emphasize how, with the expanded 12-team playoff, many regular season games effectively become de facto “play-in games,” with contenders at risk of missing out each week.
• Doug: “I just feel like there are many playoff play-in games all the time now… the fight for spot number two through spot 22—and only 12 get in—is a weekly thing… and I think is enticing.”
• Only Ohio State feels locked in—the rest of the nation is fighting weekly for inclusion.

2. The Ohio State Exception, Indiana’s Big Test & the Big Ten Picture

[04:00–05:42; 20:15–25:45]

• Ohio State stands alone as the only team virtually guaranteed a playoff spot, given its dominance.
• Indiana may be enjoying a uniquely forgiving season schedule; Landis points out: “You could look at maybe Indiana and… the back half of Indiana’s schedule… but Indiana’s not going to be in that position every year.” [04:53]
• Indiana’s transformation into a true playoff contender, absorbing the “mojo” once reserved for Oregon, is discussed. Doug: “It feels like Indiana has absorbed most of the Oregon mojo. People are talking about Indiana as a national title contender.” [20:15]
• There’s a nuanced conversation about whether Indiana, if it goes undefeated but loses the Big Ten title game, would have the same playoff respect as Oregon last year [21:06–22:27].
• Discussion of how important “transitive property” games are—how Indiana’s win over Illinois, and then Illinois’ subsequent results, may influence playoff narrative and seeding.

3. Paths to Four Undefeated Conference Champs?

[05:42–10:38]

• Both hosts game out the possibility of having four undefeated Power Conference champions (Ohio State, Miami, Texas A&M, Texas Tech).
• Bill: “I don’t know if we’ll have four undefeated conference champs, but I think we can have four undefeated teams in the regular season—Ohio State, Indiana, Miami, and Texas Tech.” [06:56]
• There’s back-and-forth about the difficulty of running the SEC table, especially for Texas A&M.
• Intrigue exists in the Big 12: Texas Tech could go 12–0 in the regular season but lose the conference title game and still make the playoff. The idea of “bid stealers” emerges: runner-up teams gaining playoff spots, impacting SEC/Big Ten at-large hopes.

4. The “Bid Stealer” Concept & Crazy Conference Title Scenarios

[10:38–12:36]

• Doug: “If Texas Tech gets upset in the Big 12 title game, you’re out… that is like a giant chunk of the Big Ten and SEC [at risk]… which is great.” [10:38]
• Bill suggests similar chaos in the ACC, with teams lurking behind Miami possibly pulling an upset and disrupting the playoff picture: “If Miami gets to the ACC title game even 11-1 and loses, I probably think they’re still in too.” [10:44]
• Intrigue with rising teams like Georgia Tech in the ACC, and the value of games like Georgia Tech–Duke under the new playoff model.

5. Bracket Reveal: Doug’s & Bill’s Updated Top 12 Playoff Picks

[12:59–15:38] Doug’s Reveal [17:05–19:18]

Bill’s Top 12:

1. Ohio State
2. Miami
3. Indiana
4. Texas Tech
5. Alabama (“I’m back in… I think they’re pretty good” [13:29])
6. Texas
7. Texas A&M
8. Oregon
9. Oklahoma
10. Notre Dame
11. Georgia
12. South Florida

Doug’s Top 12:

1. Ohio State
2. Miami
3. Texas A&M
4. Texas Tech
5. Indiana
6. Alabama
7. Georgia Tech
8. Oregon
9. Notre Dame
10. Washington
11. Texas
12. South Florida

• Both note the shifting perceptions and new “tiers” in college football—Ohio State above all; a “super-competitive” middle with many possible playoff entries.

6. The Notre Dame Factor: Playoff Fate Riding On USC

[28:56–30:54; 34:34–37:14]

• Both agree that Notre Dame, with only two losses to top-five teams (Miami, Texas A&M) and a chance to beat USC, could all but secure a playoff spot at 10–2.
• Doug: “Are we at a point now where 10–2 Notre Dame is definitely in?” [30:00]
• Bill: “If Notre Dame beats USC, and then USC beats Michigan or Oregon, that further elevates Notre Dame’s resume.” [34:34–35:18]
• Notre Dame’s schedule is discussed as “opportunity, not roadblock”—its current path is precisely what it needs for maximum playoff consideration.

7. SEC Critique: Exposing the “Ponzi Scheme”

[17:05–19:18; 24:00–25:45]

• Doug criticizes SEC rankings, suggesting many teams are propped up “on themselves with not actually a lot to it… I am believing more in the idea of the SEC being a bunch of frauds.” [17:05]
• Doug & Bill challenge why teams like Ole Miss and Vanderbilt are ranked so high with subpar resumes, while teams like Washington (with better resumes) are undervalued.

8. Other Notable Storylines & What-Ifs

[25:45–27:56; 39:05–41:55]

• Potential for chaos from “spoiler” teams: UCLA and Northwestern discussed as new teams post-coaching changes.
• Group of Five playoff bid is briefly explored: South Florida is in the hosts’ playoff brackets, but the Mountain West (UNLV, Boise, San Diego State) could still play a part.
• The importance of remaining G5 matchups, including Boise State–UNLV, South Florida–Memphis, and Temple–Navy (with Navy pulling a notable comeback win).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On expanded playoff chaos:
  • Doug: “The fight for spot number two through spot 22—and only 12 get in—is a weekly thing… and I think is enticing.” [04:50]
• On Indiana absorbing “Oregon Mojo”:
  • Doug: “It feels like Indiana has absorbed most of the Oregon mojo. People are talking about Indiana as a national title contender.” [20:15]
• On SEC being overrated:
  • Doug: “I am believing more in the idea of the SEC being a bunch of frauds, but also beating themselves up.” [17:05]
• On Notre Dame’s playoff hopes:
  • Doug: “Are we at a point now where 10–2 Notre Dame is definitely in?” [30:00]
  • Bill: “If Notre Dame beats USC, they vault to the top of that list of 10–2 teams that would get in.” [35:18]
• On Ohio State’s value as best win:
  • Doug: “If you beat Ohio State right now, it's the best win in college football. So if you're a 10–2 team with the best win in the sport, you're like the six seed.” [37:03]
• On the value of expanded playoff:
  • Doug: “All these games absolutely matter every week to shake that out. Georgia Tech, Duke matters for that. I think this is better.” [38:26]
  • Bill: “I think this is better.” [39:05]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Playoff “play-in” games discussion: [02:49–04:53]
• SEC critique and rankings debate: [17:05–19:18; 24:00–25:45]
• Indiana’s rise and transitive win effect: [20:15–25:45]
• Brackets reveal & analysis: [12:59–19:18]
• Notre Dame playoff calculus: [28:56–30:54; 34:34–37:14]
• Spoiler teams and Group of Five race: [25:45–27:56; 39:05–41:55]

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Episode Takeaways

• With a clear gap between Ohio State and the rest, the race for playoff spots is wide open and fiercely contested.
• Indiana has become a playoff darling, filling the void left by Oregon’s downturn.
• Notre Dame’s fate hinges on a critical game vs. USC; at 10–2 with quality losses and at least one win over a contender, they likely make the cut.
• Both hosts highly value “quality losses” and transitive victories, while casting doubt on several SEC teams’ lofty rankings.
• Expanded playoff has delivered: greater intrigue, more meaningful midseason games, and an ever-shifting pecking order.

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For listeners looking to understand the current College Football Playoff landscape, especially from an Ohio State and Big Ten perspective, this episode is an essential, engaging, and critical listen.

Transcript

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[Doug Le Maurice]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. It's our Tuesday show talking about our playoff brackets. Douglas Maurice along with Bill Landis. Just so you folks know, Landis is fighting through a pretty severe headache to the point where he does not have his lights in his office turned on because he can't look into the lights. But instead of bagging on this show, he said, I'm gonna fight through in the shadows.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, in the shadow.

[Doug Le Maurice]

The light.

[Bill Landis]

The lights are too right for me this Tuesday, but we'll power through.

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Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Le Maurice]

So let's get into it and I'll try not to like ramble and meander and waste your time like I do the other 364 days out of the year. Bill, we have our 12 teams for our playoff bracket. I will say, Bill, just thinking about this, I don't know if everybody is here at this point, but as you and I, and we are certainly not the only people in college football who think about the playoff bracket. Media, fans, I hope people enjoy it. I hope it doesn't drive you crazy. I hope you think it's fun. But when you do think about it like this, man, I just feel like there are many playoff play in games all the time. Now, I thought usc, Illinois a couple weeks ago was kind of that. I thought Nebraska, Michigan a couple weeks ago was kind of that. Now this upcoming week, I think usc, Notre Dame is kind of that. I think Illinois, Illinois is Michigan, Washington, Michigan, Washington, Michigan, Washington and then Illinois, Washington the next week is kind of that. Ole Miss, Georgia, this week is kind.

[Bill Landis]

Of sec game, every sec game.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Right. I mean, Utah, BYU, it's the holy war. It's awesome. It's 8 o' clock on fox, but gigantic.

[Bill Landis]

Texas Tech, Arizona State, I think is this week.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Right?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Le Maurice]

So, like, I, like I, I think it flavors up again the people who didn't want an expanded playoff because there is this top tier of teams. Although frankly, I mean, that tier, honestly, right now is Ohio State. And that's it. Like the tier of teams that's like, oh, man, you're going to make the playoff every year. What's the point? It's not that exciting, honestly. If you thought that tier at one point was like Georgia, Alabama, Ohio State, maybe Oregon, like, it's only Ohio State right now. And so obviously we're an Ohio State show. We do tons of Ohio State content. So if you're, if you're an Ohio State fan, you think, man, is almost too easy to make the playoff. I don't think that applies to anybody else. And the fight for, for spot number two through spot 22 and only 12 of them are getting in is a weekly thing, Bill. That really, I think is enticing.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, there, there are a lot of teams alive, I think.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

And it's fun. I do think you're right. I think maybe Ohio State and its fan base could at times feel like it's sort of going through the motions en route to the playoff. And part of that too is like Ohio State season, like the, just the tenor of it has changed dramatically with the Penn State stuff. So that, that contributes to it. But I don't, I don't know that there's anyone else in that position you could look at. Maybe Indiana and just look at the back half of Indiana's schedule now that it has passed Oregon and also, like, it's also played Penn State and maybe think the same thing, but Oregon, or excuse me, Indiana is not going to be in that position every year. They just maybe happen to be in it this year, like Ohio State, I think, you know, until something drastic changes, is probably going to be the team that is consistently in that spot. And everyone else, I think, will find themselves not fighting for their lives, but fighting, I think, weekend and week out in a way that I think is really great for the sport.

[Doug Le Maurice]

So let's get to our picks first and then I do want to talk about what kind of respect we think Indiana is going to get from the playoff committee, how that all might shake out. You brought up a great point about Notre Dame versus the Big Ten for a playoff spot, but in going through my picks, I did sort of realize that. And it can be very difficult. There's too many sports shows that operate this way. They assume in the future everything is going to go the way you expect while analyzing all the things that just happened that you did not expect. So it's like, hey, we just had a weekend of upsets, but now I'm going to project forward and I think all these teams are going to go undefeated. It's like, well, there's. You have zero evidence of that. Because the whole point is this sport surprises you. Given that just looking at schedules and how teams are playing, I don't think it's impossible that we get four undefeated conference champs. That if you look at Ohio State, Miami and the acc, Texas A and M and the SEC and Texas Tech and the Big 12, like, you start shaking stuff out and I, it at least crossed my mind as I was seeding things of like, man, I'm not so sure that we're not Talking about some 13 and O teams here. More than one.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I mean, I feel. I feel pretty. I shouldn't feel good about it, but I don't. I don't know if we'll have four undefeated conference chance, but I think we can have four undefeated teams in a regular season. Ohio State, Indiana, Miami and Texas Tech. I don't. I don't know. I actually went and I, I suppose I should have been doing this the whole time, but for the first time for these picks, like, I did go through the remaining SEC schedule and just kind of like game stuff out and you're like, you're just guessing, right? And it's such a. It's such a sort of like tightly contested league that it's even hard to do that. But like, I didn't end up with anybody undefeated, so. But I do think there's a. Yeah, I don't. Coming into the year, I probably wouldn't have guessed anybody would be undefeated. I think there's a real chance we end up with four.

[Doug Le Maurice]

I mean, I do think when you look at A M, at Arkansas, at lsu, I think LSU is a fraud. At Missouri, I don't know what to think of Missouri, South Carolina, Samford, and then at Texas to end the regular season. I. They're favorite in all those games, I think. I mean they have, they have three road games against ranked teams. So are they going to go win at lsu, at Missouri and at Texas? Now go ahead and listen to my solo podcast on Tuesday night or watch the YouTube show where I mean, the rankings in the SEC are all a house of cards. And so it's like, I don't, I don't actually think LSU is the 10th best team in the country. I'm not sure what Missouri has done to earn this respect, that kind of thing. That's why I thought like, yeah, I could see Texas saying I'm getting through it. But the bottom line is I do think you kind of have to think that way a little bit because I'll tell you what also started to do not to jump the gun on stuff. We're just talking. I liked now Arizona State. Sam Levitt was out the other night for Arizona State. They're a completely different team when they're starting quarterback doesn't play as many teams are. But Utah just destroyed Arizona State. It wasn't competitive, but you know, they got Devin Dampier in the run game. They got two running backs they believe in. They still have a good offensive line. I know Utah didn't really hang with Texas Tech earlier in the season, but I just like the shape of the way Utah has looked the past couple weeks. And so what I started to game out a little bit in the Big 12 is Texas Tech goes 12. 0 in the regular season and then does not win the Big 12 championship game, for instance, in a Texas Tech Utah rematch. Or you could think about byu. This BYU Utah game is huge on Saturday. You have to think about Cincinnati when you think of. I looked at those four Big 12 teams. So BYU, Texas Tech and Cincinnati are all three and O in the Big 12 and Utah's two and one. BYU plays all other three. BYU plays Texas Tech, Cincinnati and Utah. Utah plays all three. They've already lost Texas Tech, they play Cincinnati and And byu. And so like the only matchup of those four teams that is not going to happen is Cincinnati, Texas Tech. So there's. They're playing each other. Like I'm not sure how it's going to work out. I think it's going to be exciting. I think it could be any of those four of them. But if Texas Tech is 12, 0 and getting respect all year and then loses to one of those three teams in the Big 12 title game, I think Texas Tech's probably in like 12 and one Texas Tech is in. Now the Big 12 champ is a bid stealer from probably either the Big Ten or the SEC. And so I originally did my 12 team bracket this week and I had Utah beating Texas Tech in the Big 12 title game and two Big 12 teams in. And then I stared at my bracket and said, this is too hard. So I didn't do it. I backed off of that. But like for instance, that's what we're talking about with like these play mini playing games in the middle of the year. There is a fight that you don't want to be the 11th team because all of a sudden if Texas Tech gets upset in the Big 12 title game, you're out. And that is like a giant chunk of the Big Ten in the SEC that that kind of thinking would apply to here in mid October, which is great. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

I mean, I think we both like Miami.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

But I think you have to watch out for a potential bid stealer in the ACC too.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yep.

[Bill Landis]

Because like if my Miami presumably gets to the ACC title game, even 11 and 1 and like loses that game, I probably think they're. They're still in too. Right? I don't know. I don't love anybody in the ACC to do that necessarily. Florida State, Georgia, you know, like Georgia Tech. Wasn't Georgia Tech like losing the Wake Forest and like have the right.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah, no, Georgia Tech's played some really close games lately.

[Bill Landis]

Yes, I know they, but they do that by their nature. I understand that. But the Big 12, I think. Yeah. You don't, you don't want to be whatever like fighting for that 4th big 10 spot or 5th, 5th sec spot and see Texas Tech lose. Which makes me think, Brent, your mark should put in a call to Joey McGuire and Cody Campbell and say, hey boys, why don't you, why don't you take one for the team, lay down in the Big 12 title game so we get two teams in.

[Doug Le Maurice]

I mean it really is. But it just like. Yeah, I was staring at it and I tried to do that Big 12 thing. And then I was back to like, is the SEC only going to get in two? And I was like, I don't, I don't want to play that game again. But like, again, for instance, Georgia Tech 6, 0 Georgia Tech that I still think has a really good chance to beat George in last game of the regular season at Duke this Saturday. Huge game, Huge game. Because if Georgia Tech wants to get like, wants to keep chances alive and it's going to be a racer, like, this is so like you should care about if you're a Big Ten fan, if you're an ACC fan, if you're an SEC fan, you should care about Georgia Tech, Duke in a way that you never would have before the 12 team playoff.

[Bill Landis]

So anyway, I think like the ACC like that obviously Miami is the class, but like you have to keep an eye on Georgia Tech. Virginia is still 30 in the conference. Like Pitt is 2 and 1 and 4 and 2 overall. Like, and it's kind of maybe got his quarterback stuff figured out.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Like, I don't know.

[Bill Landis]

I like, it's, it's that the, the race for who's going to play Miami now is like suddenly very interesting.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah. So like that, that idea and that, that is this the idea that there actually might be kind of a dominant team in Both the Big 12 in the ACC and then what if they lose the conference championship game is just has a chance to blow everything up. So let's do you first reveal our 12 teams for our playoff bracket each week. Go ahead and we'll see where you change this week.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I, I kind of like, I didn't even look at what I did last week. I kind of approach this blank slate style and just like kind of game stuff out. So I don't, I don't, I didn't change really much of the top other than the obvious place to change. So I still have Ohio State one, I still have Miami two. I have Indiana three, which is basically just them replacing Oregon. I have Texas Tech four.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

I have Alabama five. Like so Alabama right now for me is the SEC champ.

[Doug Le Maurice]

You're bought in.

[Bill Landis]

I am, Yeah. I think, I think they're pretty good. I'm like probably foolishly so back in on Texas. So I have Texas 6. Like that my SEC title game is Alabama, Texas.

[Doug Le Maurice]

I don't think that's foolish.

[Bill Landis]

Okay. Okay, so Texas a and M7, Oregon 8, Oklahoma 9. I have Notre Dame back in at 10, Georgia 11, South Florida 12.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Oh man. So how many SEC is that?

[Bill Landis]

Five SEC 3, Big Ten 1 each from the ACC and the Big 12 in Notre Dame.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Okay, so Ohio State, Miami, Indiana, Texas tech. Your top four Alabama 5, Texas 6, Texas A&M 7, Oregon 8. Tell me who was 9 and 10 again?

[Bill Landis]

Oklahoma, Notre Dame. Okay, then Georgia, South Florida.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Okay, so I will say that just in. Well, actually, you know what, let me say this. Let me give you my top 12 and then we can just have the bigger discussion. So I have Ohio State 1, Miami 2. That's the same. I moved Texas A m up to 3, which I still I I am really considering them as a potentially 130 Big 10 SEC champ, Texas Tech 4, Indiana 5 so I want to have a discussion about like is Indiana just exactly the same the same as how we were thinking about Oregon before? Because like I had Oregon third. It's like Ohio State, Oregon, undefeated Big Ten championship game. The loser only drops for three Ohio State, Indiana, undefeated, Big Ten championship game. Is that the same thing? Is Ohio State Oregon? That now would be Ohio State, Indiana. Is it the exact same thing will be. Will it be viewed the exact same exact same way by the committee? I want to talk about that for a little bit. I say maybe not. So I have Indiana 5. I can't hold on out out on Alabama any longer. I think this is literally scanning. It's the first time I've had Alabama in my playoff bracket all year. God, they got me. Freaking Kaylin DeBoer is Black Hood. He got me. I have Alabama 6. I don't like it.

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[Doug Le Maurice]

Georgia Tech 7, Oregon 8, Notre Dame 9 Washington 10, Texas 11, South Florida 12. So this is only 3. Sec. 4. Big 10. I think Washington is super interesting. I, I really this stretch at Michigan and then home for Illinois, for Washington the next two weeks, if they, if they get through that and they only have one loss and then they, they're going into Oregon in the last game of the regular season at 10 and 1. I think they are in spectacular shape. Their schedules at Michigan, Illinois, then off at Wisconsin, Purdue, at ucla, which is like three very winnable games, obviously, and then Oregon at home to end the year. So, like, what I'm spelling out here is them losing to Oregon at the end of the year and then being 10 and 2 with their losses to two playoff teams in Ohio State and Oregon. But like, again, I'm on alert for could Washington win that game at home? I think they could win that game at home. If Washington's 11 and one with what it's only lost to Ohio State. Washington's like the 5 seed, right? So, like, we're getting crazy talk then. And then Oregon's going to be the 11 seed. But anyway, I just, this is a reminder of like, I, I think it could be usc. I actually have come back around. We did a show. Was it last week or two weeks ago when our show was basically like, is the Big Ten gun only going to get one team in? It's going to be one big 11 sec last week. I've just come back around on I think what USC is doing, I think what Nebraska is doing, I think what Washington is doing, I think what Illinois still has a chance to do. If Illinois would go win at Washington and finish strong, I think there's going to be a fourth Big Ten team that's a pretty strong 10 and 2. And I think they, I, I feel just much better. And then having gone through the exercise of the Ponzi scheme that is the SEC and how they're just all propped up on themselves with like, not actually a lot to it. I mean, I am believing more in the idea of the SEC being a bunch of frauds, but also beating themselves up and the Big Ten having a fourth team at 10 and 2. That'd be very competitive in the, in the conversation.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I can, I can see it happening. My issue just was like, as I went through and just kind of did like the win loss exercise, the only other 10 and 2 Big 10 team I came up with was Nebraska, but it was a pretty, it was a pretty hollow 10 and 2 because that's, that's 10 and 2. Obviously, they already lost to Michigan at home, and I had them losing to USC at home, but then I also had like USC losing this week to Notre Dame and losing to Oregon to be 9 and 3. And it's like, well, are you gonna put Nebraska in over a 9 and 3 USC? No. And then you're gonna put a 9 and 3 USC in over a 93 SEC team. And I thought, I thought, no, like, I think that there are 10 and two Big Ten teams that would win an argument against a 9 and 3 SEC, but I don't think it'd be Nebraska just based on.

[Doug Le Maurice]

That's interesting.

[Bill Landis]

What, what their wins would be.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Be.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, but like, I think a night like a 10 and two. A 10 and two Washington. Yes. A 10 and two Michigan. Yeah. 10 and two USC. Yes. I just, I, I think any one of those three would probably be in, but I didn't have any of them finishing 10 and 2.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah. Okay. Let's have the Indiana conversation for a little bit. I do think just kind of, again, I think you pay attention to what other people say. I only care about what the two of us say. So I tune everybody else out. But snippets, bits and pieces. It feels like Indiana has absorbed most of the Oregon mojo. And then people are talking about Indiana as a national title contender. Indiana is a legit team. I, I feel like the conversation. And again, Indiana in the regular season did not have a win, anything close to going on the road and winning at Oregon last year. But the conversation about Indiana compared to last year is completely different. So if I have a little trepidation about, like, I don't know, would they. Are they exactly where Oregon was last week in your mind?

[Bill Landis]

I think, I think in my mind, yes. And I think in, in the country's mind, north of the Mason Dixon line. Yes, yes. The SEC is not going to give them much credit. And there's already people trying. I still like your guy Peter Burns counting up ranked games remaining as if that's a good analysis. But yeah, I think, I think by and large, Indiana has replaced Oregon in most people's minds. But I don't, I don't think you're off base with putting them fifth, especially if A M doesn't lose. Right. Like, I have. I have my SEC champ as the five seed right. Right now. But I think if. Because when I, When I was doing the Ohio State, Oregon thing and having Ohio State one in Oregon three, that was like, they're not going to lose in the regular season and they're going to play a banger of a Big Ten championship game. And I kind of think. I think in Ohio State, Indiana could give us the same thing. So as long as that's the case, then I think Indiana would have a really strong case to be a team that earns a buy without a conference championship. But that would, I, I think would almost certainly go out the window if the Big 12 champ and the SEC champ are also undefeated.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah, I think that's right. But I. So they're. They, like everybody are beholden to context, beholden to what other teams are doing. But I, I don't. I think.

[Bill Landis]

By the way, I think. Sorry, I think. I think they're Illinois, like, I think them hammering Illinois is going to age pretty well.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yes, I agree. And now again, we're getting into, like, them hammering Illinois and then Illinois beating usc. And then if USC is good, like, all of that, they are connecting the dots. And that's real to me as much as I think a lot of the. There's fraudulent stuff in the sec. You know, like, this is. This is a really big game we'll get to in a second, USC and Notre Dame this weekend. But, like, already it's like, well, you know, like, USC beat Michigan convincingly. That's a really good win for usc, which props up usc, which means Illinois beating USC is really good. And that props up Illinois, which means that Illinois is pretty good, which means Indiana hammering Illinois, props up Indiana pretty well. And Washington, you know, hanging around a tiny bit with Ohio State and then going on the road and coming back at Maryland. And I think playing pretty well right now. That Illinois, Washington winner, I think, like Illinois at Washington. So we've established, like, that USC win helps Illinois. So now Washington, either Illinois is going to go into Washington and people are gonna be like, wow, Washington's not an easy place to play. That's a good win for Illinois. Or Washington's gonna beat Illinois and it's like, hey, man, Illinois only had losses to Ohio State in Indiana, they beat usc. That's a good win for Washington. That's more real to me than a lot of this other stuff that's happening in the sec. And it's Just, like, accepting that. And I don't know if you listen to the thing or not. I think Washington is better than ole Miss. Washington's 28th in the polls, and Ole Miss is five. And it's not just five is crazy.

[Bill Landis]

I don't. I don't like, why. What? Because that really, I truly don't get it. Their resume is, like, unimpressed nothing.

[Doug Le Maurice]

And it's not only that they have a common opponent, and Ole Miss beat him by three and Washington beat him by 40 in Washington state. But it's part of it, but also, like, we're gonna, like, drool all over Trinidad, Trinidad Chambliss, and then not drool over Damon Williams Jr. Like, I just. I think they're very similar teams with similar profiles. And 1, 60 and 1's 5 and 1 because they lost to the number one team in the country. So, like, I'll be very curious.

[Bill Landis]

The one that's 60 barely beat Kentucky, barely beat Arkansas, and, like, barely beat Washington State. And its best win is probably Tulane. Yeah, so, yeah, I don't. I don't like.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah, so like that. So, like, that conversation. And I will see Ole Miss is going to play Georgia this week. We'll see how that shakes out. Like, wins. That's a nice win for Ole Miss. If they win. If it's Georgia, then Ole Miss is coming back to the pack a little bit. Like these conversations, I just, I do feel a little better about Bill than where we were before. But Indiana, like, Indiana just absolutely has a shot at 12 0. Right. And so 12 0. So Michigan State, UCLA at Maryland, @ Penn State, Wisconsin, Purdue. Yeah, I think they're probably. They're favored on the road at Penn State at this point, right?

[Bill Landis]

At this point, yeah. Yeah.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Unless.

[Bill Landis]

I mean, unless Penn State, like, magically beats Iowa and Ohio State before they play them.

[Doug Le Maurice]

But. And then the other thing you have to think about again, like, with Penn State, for all the. The upheavals, like, they lost their quarterback. So if they had fired James Franklin, but Drew Aller was healthy, and now, I mean, UCLA fired its coach and became a new team. It's like if they would have fired James Franklin. Terry Smith rallies the troops. Drew Allers like, okay, here we go. But now you're asking Ethan Gronkmeyer to do that, and that just seems difficult.

[Bill Landis]

So can I ask you just like. Yeah, I just want to take your temperature on this quickly, because you just mentioned them to the extent that UCLA is a new team. They play Indiana, Nebraska, Ohio State, Washington and usc. Before, like if they're like, I don't know, legit. I don't mean legit like Big Ten contender, although they only have one conference loss, but just legit like not a pushover like they thought we were going to be. Like they will have a role to play in the Big Ten race.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah, I thought you were gonna. Five teams remaining if 8 and 4 UCLA could get the playoff conversation if you want to start going.

[Bill Landis]

Just whether or not you think any of these teams we're talking about could potentially lose to ucla.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Ucla, they lost to Utah and Utah might win the Big 12. They lost to UNLV and UNLV is undefeated and we've been handing that group of five bid to the American champ. But like 13, 0. UNLV in the mountain west would have something to say about that. And what If Northwestern goes 8 and 4? They lost. So I know we're not actually doing that, but. Yeah, but like that's the whole point. And then that's like, you know, how, how would we view that if that happens? Because you know who's another fraud is Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt is a complete. Like this is. We've underdogged ourselves. This is, this happens in sports. People love an underdog so much, sometimes they want to accept the underdog as an overdog. And then it's like, you guys still remember it's Vanderbilt, right? And they haven't beaten anybody and they're 17th because they beat South Carolina with a backup quarterback and they beat for blew up Virginia Tech who fired its coach. Like what, what are we, what are we doing here? There's nothing there, there is nothing that would tell you that Vanderbilt should be ranked higher than Washington, including like the talent base. But we're just all up in our feels about Diego Pavia, about 28 year old Diego Pavia and this the underdog story of the Commodores. And so we're just ranking them. And again, it's not about ranking, it's about perception. But anyway, Indiana still like we, if, if we were saying before we think the three best teams in the country are Ohio State, Miami and Oregon. Are we saying now we think the three best teams in the country are Ohio State, Miami and Indiana?

[Bill Landis]

I'm saying it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's where I am.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah, I still think Oregon is very close in that conversation.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think A and M's pushing it.

[Doug Le Maurice]

I think it ams in that, in that conversation. And like I, I have to. I didn't think it was going to work at Texas Tech. It's certainly Working so far. You know, at some point I'm going to have to give in on that too and be realistic about it. But also, they have some. They have some games to win here coming up. But that Utah wins pretty good.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I also, I. Depending on what, like, if Notre Dame just goes out and like, destroys usc, right. And its only losses are by. Are to Miami and Texas A M by what, four points? I think they would have to maybe be in that conversation. I know, like, their resume otherwise wouldn't tell you that. But I think you can. I think you can analyze losses and get yourself to that point too. Like, and clearly Notre Dame's getting that respect still. I think rightfully so. But we'll have to see what. That's what makes this USC game so huge because it's kind of like really the only other chance we have to see what kind of quality Notre Dame has to it.

[Doug Le Maurice]

So I do think so to talk about that game, which obviously is incredibly important. This is so, you know, it's like, hey, USC is pretty good. Watch out, Notre Dame. But it's not really that. It's like, hey, USC is pretty good. Thank God for Notre Dame, Notre Dame, that they have a chance to beat somebody who matters. Notre Dame is 13th in the AP poll right now. USC is 20th. This is, this is quite an opportunity for Notre Dame. And it's, it's exactly what they needed after losing to, like, as much as you're like, oh, my gosh, Notre Dame started 0 and 2. The two teams that they lost to are still both undefeated and looking awesome. So at the time when they lost to Miami was 10th as Texas A&M was 16th. And now they're two of the top five teams in the country. So that's very good for Notre Dame. And they needed somebody good on their schedule to beat because after usc, it's Boston College, Navy Pit, Syracuse, Stanford. No one else is going to move the needle. This USC game, 7:30 on NBC on Saturday is gonna move the needle. Are we at the point now where like 10 and 2, Notre Dame is definitely in?

[Bill Landis]

I think so. You know what else I just saw is this week that it would help Notre Dame. Boise State plays unlv.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Oh, okay. So they handled Boise State last week or two weeks ago, 28, 7. So for Boise to go beat UNLV, hey, actually, that's a, that's a pretty good win. That's like the possible Mountain west camp.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, they still have. I don't, I don't think Navy's going to win the American, but they're alive for it and they play Navy as well.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah, Pitts had a pulse, which is just one of those that, like, sometimes you look and say, how do you view a schedule? It's like, well, you really have to view a schedule as opportunity, not roadblock. That to say, like, oh, they have an easy schedule. Once you've lost a couple games, you don't want an easy thing schedule because then your wins are meaningless. Once you've lost a couple games, you want a hard schedule so you can prove yourself. So I think as bad as an 02 start was for Notre Dame, I think almost everything has broken their way since then. Do you agree with that?

[Bill Landis]

Yes. The teams that they've needed to. To help them, I think have helped them. They've obviously handled their business, but, like, just, they've. They've controlled every game they've been in. I think, like, the NC State game was a little slow going, but they ended up winning 36, 7. So they've, yeah, basically done what they've had to do since losing those two games. And, and, and, you know, I think they're pretty thankful to both Miami and Texas A and M that they have continued to look very good.

[Doug Le Maurice]

I had said a lot in the preseason about like, man, I just can imagine like, there being 13, nine and three teams and three of them get in or whatever. It's like, is the roadblock. Is the. The not the roadblock? Is. Is the group actually going to be at 10 and 2?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that. That's kind of what I ended up with. Yeah. Like, I only have in like, everything I gained out. The only 9 and 3 team I have in is.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Okay, so I have. It depends how you. Good. How good you think Texas A M is. You have Texas in, but you have Texas running the table to get in at 10 and 2.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. So beating A M getting and getting to Atlanta. Yeah.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah. So, like, I have Texas in, but I think I have Texas in at like 9 and 3 and that, like, they've looked. They look good in the second half of the year. Two of their three losses are two, Ohio State and Texas A and M. The other one's a blip. And then they go beat Georgia on the road and that stacks up pretty well. And like, they win the 9 and 3 battle.

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[Doug Le Maurice]

It's funny, it's like, you know, you and I, you and I are accustomed to talking about college football in a north south way, in a northern thing. This is actually, this game is like usc. Notre Dame is the Big Ten against Notre Dame. Because if Notre Dame beats usc, then they absorb a lot of the USC stuff. And then if USC goes around and beats some other Big Ten teams, then it's, well, but Notre Dame beat usc and then USC beat Michigan or USC beat Oregon, right? Whereas if USC wins, it probably knocks Notre Dame out. Notre Dame's not getting in with three losses and then that's another. That's a great win on the road for usc, which means either USC is in great shape to get in the playoff or somebody who beats USC is going to absorb A lot of good feeling.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Like, if. Because I. The only. The only Big Ten teams I'd entertain getting to 11 wins are Ohio State, Indiana and Oregon. Right. So, like everyone, everyone else below that, if Notre Dame beats USC and we assume they're 10 and 2, they just, like, vault to the top of that list of 10 and two teams that would get like. And like, you almost see the SEC teams out of. It's like 10 and 2 Notre Dame and like any other 10 and 2 Big 10 team. And that's. That's not a spot that I think those Big Ten teams would want to find themselves in. So it's not like, I don't think it's cut and dry. Notre Dame wins this game in. The Big Ten is definitely not getting a fourth team in, but I think it would be pretty close to that territory if that happens.

[Doug Le Maurice]

What a way. And I. Isn't that exciting? What more stakes would you want? This is a great rivalry. We've been having all these rivalry talks all year about should usc, Notre Dame continue. And then it's like, oh, by the way, it's two top 20 teams that have a tremendous amount on the line, not because they're undefeated and perfect, but because one has two losses, one has one loss, and they're good and they have a chance, but nothing's guaranteed. And guess what? They're two of the 20 teams that we're talking about in that way in mid October and ain't that good for ball.

[Bill Landis]

What do you think? I don't love these conversations because we don't really know, but like, conversation between 10 and 2 Notre Dame and 10, 2 Michigan with a win over Ohio State. Well, I would have lost the usc.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah, I think it's. I think to beat Ohio State would be such a vaulter. I. I think it's. I mean, you think about. I mean, Indiana just vaulted right by beating Oregon. Right. To beat Ohio State is. Is a vaulter that I think, like you. Oh, you almost ignore anything else. It's the best winning college football.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug Le Maurice]

If you beat Ohio State right now, it's the best win in college football. So if you're a 10 and 2 team with the best win in the sport, you're like the six seed.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think that's right. But it would be. It'll be fun to talk about for.

[Doug Le Maurice]

A couple days, but, like, also, like, how. How exciting and interesting. Not that Ohio State, Michigan needs extra stuff, but like, if. If Michigan only has two losses going into that game, like, they're. They're not just playing to like spoil their rival season. They're not just playing because those teams hate each other. There's like real stakes for both teams.

[Bill Landis]

That's what makes this Michigan, Washington game so interesting because I don't think Michigan's going to lose the Michigan State, Purdue, Northwestern or Maryland.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

So if they beat Washington and then, yeah, they show or I guess it's in Ann Arbor, but they're going to be nine and two.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah. No. So we have Notre Dame, usc and then we have usc, Nebraska later, and then we have Illinois, Washington later and we have Washington, Michigan right now. Like those are, those are some absolute season changing games involving some very good football teams that we have to be laser focused on. And we already saw like when we got that before, we got usc, Illinois before it was decided on a field goal in the last play of the game. So I think like that's, I think that's what we're looking at with a bunch of these. Again, I don't know that anyone has to stick up for the 12 team playoff anymore, but in a world where if it was a 14 playoff instead of a 12 team playoff, we would be talking about whether Indiana would get in or not. Because we'd be talking about, well, if Miami, Texas A and M, Texas Tech all go undefeated and then the Big Ten champ is undefeated, then the Big Ten championship game loser between 12. Oh no, Ohio State and Indiana is out. And like is that better? Is that better than we're talking about 20 teams right now who are fighting for spots two through 11 and all these games absolutely matter every week to shake that out. Georgia Tech, Duke matters for that. I think this is better.

[Bill Landis]

I think this is better. I think briefly, just because I don't want to completely gloss past it like the G5 spot, don't, don't discount the Mountain West. I think. I think we've been doing that a little bit. So UNLV is 2, 0 in the league, Boise State's 2 and oh in the league. San Diego State is also undefeated.

[Doug Le Maurice]

It's not getting in though. Boy, I think the Boise State, that Boise State didn't beat Notre Dame and they lost the head to head with South Florida. That was like the.

[Bill Landis]

But what if it's not South Florida? Oh, I guess it doesn't matter like the like though, it's the league. They represented the league, I guess.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah. So I think Boise's out. Like UNLV doesn't have the same thing, but I think in a tiebreaker situation and you and I talked about at the time, we just thought that South Florida, Boise State game. It's not exact. It's not a play in game. But that really mattered, I think for the American champ versus Mountain west champ conversation because you don't often get games like that. I agree with you. If you and I'll be 13 0, then I think it's a conversation. Outside of that, I'm not sure that it is. I think it's the American champ.

[Bill Landis]

San Diego State's got a win against the power, but like if they're. If they only have one loss.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

By the way, two. So UNLV Boise is a big game in the Mountain west this week. And in two weeks we get South Florida versus Memphis, which is huge. Oh, that's gonna be the biggest G5 game of the year.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah. Okay. Although Temple Navy would Maybe the biggest G5 game of the year.

[Bill Landis]

I can't believe Temple blew it.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Heart heartbreaking fashion. I flipped it on if you didn't watch it. Navy had a fourth and one. They converted the fourth and one and it would turn into a 51 yard touchdown run. And then they went for two and.

[Bill Landis]

One and got respect, by the way, because they were going to kick the extra point and they called timeout and it's like, no, we're going to go for the win. And then they won.

[Doug Le Maurice]

Yeah. So anyway, a lot of good ball out there. All right. Hope you feel better, Landis. If you guys want to go check out the good [e-mail] rho b a c k.com game day collection. Great college football gear. Get something a little stylish. Something little, like, little more upscale. You know, maybe you're not buying 10 things like that, but like, it's. It's a great gift. It's a great treat for yourself. Maybe you can say like, hey, you know, if my team, if Ohio State wins this week, I'm going to buy myself a roback. Right? Like, like make little bets with yourself. Right. You don't only have to bet $2 on your app, on your betting app. Like make a little bet with yourself. Reward yourself for your team's greatness. Right. If there's a Notre Dame fan watching right now or like, you know, like pick a big game and say, man, I'm going to be so excited if they win, buy myself a rollback. Or maybe if they lose and I'm so sad and buy myself a rollback. So then if they win, you're happy. If they lose, well, you, at least you get a cool quarter zip out of it. So rollback.com and then we're giving you 20 off. 20 off your first order. Use the code BAD20. Code BAD20 to get 20 off your first order. Landis, we hope you feel better, man.

[Bill Landis]

Thank you. Actually, talking has made the headache recede a little bit.

[Doug Le Maurice]

So that is actually the opposite of what my wife says to me when I talk. So that's the first time in my life that me talking has helped someone's head feel better. So although I guess you said you're talking made you feel better not listening to my talking.

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So.

[Bill Landis]

It was both. I'll give us both credit.

[Doug Le Maurice]

It was both. Okay. Yeah. Thanks, you guys, for being here. Tuesday, playoff brackets Friday. National picks Thursday. Ohio State breakdown for their game against Wisconsin. We have a great big theme show scheduled for Wednesday on our substack page for our substack subscribers. You can check out billanddougosu substack.com but we're just glad you guys are here. So thanks for hanging out. For now, he's Bill in the shadows. I'm Doug Le Maurice, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.