Ohio State Around the Shoe: All Jeremiah Smith talk on his stats explosion, Heisman chances & legacy

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Around the Shoe

All Jeremiah Smith talk: Stats Explosion, Heisman Chances & Legacy

Date: March 30, 2026
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises, Bill Landis (Blue Wire)
Guests: Andrew Gillis, Stephen Means (cleveland.com)

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Episode Overview

This episode is a Jeremiah Smith exclusive: the panel dives deep into the junior receiver's rise to superstardom at Ohio State, including his statistical dominance, Heisman Trophy prospects, approach to legacy, and the nuances that set him apart. After rare interview access to Smith and WRs coach Cortez Hankton, Doug, Bill, Andrew, and Stephen analyze five focused questions covering Smith’s on- and off-field impact, statistical goals, and how Buckeye Nation (and the wider CFB world) is experiencing his ascent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Most Interesting Thing Jeremiah Smith Said (03:02)

• Andrew Gillis was surprised by Smith's candid comments on recruiting approaches from other schools—specifically, Miami's efforts to flip him, and Smith's bluntness about being "poked and prodded."
  • [Quote] "At the end of the year, a certain program was going to come at me very hard. I'm not going to say any names, but I think we all know who that is." (03:02)
• This openness highlights how NIL and transfer realities have made tampering and open recruiting much more public.
• Miami fans reacted strongly on social media; panel agrees Buckeye fans would feel similarly “scorned” if roles were reversed (08:31).

2. Smith’s Focus on Yards After Catch & Honest Self-Assessment (10:08)

• Stephen Means appreciated Smith's directness about where he needs to improve: “yards after the catch.”
  • [Quote] "I've always appreciated how real JJ keeps it up…He got to ask, 'What do you want to get better at this year?' and immediately: be better at yards after the catch." (10:08)
• Comparison with previous Ohio State WR trios shows a clear recent drop-off in YAC (Yards After Catch):
  • 2021: 6.2 YAC (Wilson, Olave, JSN)
  • 2022: 6.0 YAC
  • 2023: 7.1 YAC
  • 2024: 5.7 YAC
  • Last season (Smith/Tate/Ennis): 4.4 YAC
  • OSU ranked 106th nationally in YAC (13:53)
• Panel calls for more creative route uses ("ban curl flats"), questioning why Smith isn't used more dynamically (14:47).

3. Angry Jeremiah / Motivation & Legacy (17:57)

• Smith’s “chip on the shoulder” about losing the Biletnikoff and making a rare game-costing mistake could fuel a "villain" season.
  • [Quote, Bill Landis] "I'm excited to see what Angry Jeremiah does this year…you've been great the last two years without much of a reason to be angry. What's it going to look like now that you're pissed off and very good?" (17:57)
• Smith was open about tracking OSU record books and the potential to break every major career mark if healthy.

4. Ideal Receptions & Usage Expectations for 2026 (22:41)

• Target/catch goals:
  • Stephen: 8+ catches/game, 10–12 targets; Smith should be the “engine” of the offense, especially vs. a tough schedule.
  • Bill: 10 “touches” (including occasional carries) is ideal.
  • Doug: At least maintain or increase over last year—can he be Ohio State’s first 100-catch player?
  • Andrew: ~7.5 catches/game—varies by opponent and flow; blowouts may limit his numbers, big games will spike them.
• Positional versatility & moving him around highlighted as critical, citing Arthur Smith’s history with positionless playmakers (24:34).

5. 4,000 Career Receiving Yards: Likelihood and Barriers (34:32)

• Debate on chances Smith hits 4,000—would require 1,446+ this season (second-best OSU season ever).
  • Bill: 60% ("That's a lot of yards, depends on load management and run game.")
  • Doug: 30% ("Requires perfect health, good pace, no 'alien abduction' games.")
  • Andrew: 51% (true coin flip, depends on defensive attention and schedule toughness).
  • Stephen: 80% (“Right now, more likely he has 1,500 yards than OSU has three 600-yard receivers. The volume has to be there.”)
• Panel notes tougher schedule increases chances he’s on the field and needed in critical moments (42:53).

6. Heisman Trophy Chances: The Criteria & Roadblocks (44:39)

• Singular Focus: The more Smith is the entire offense, the better his Heisman prospects.
  • [Doug] "The thing that would lead into [the Heisman] is the more they rely on him as like the whole passing offense."
• Contingent on Factors Beyond His Control:
  • Team success (must make playoff, win big games)
  • Offensive philosophy (pace, scheme, usage)
  • Other receivers’ emergence ("If he splits the offense, harder to make runaway case")
  • National QB narrative, particularly with Arch Manning, CJ Carr, etc.
• [Stephen] "The runway for a non-quarterback at Ohio State...has maybe never been clearer than it is right now." (51:59)
• [Bill] "It just feels like things are syncing up for this to happen this year…it's always been confusing to figure out OSU's candidate, but if the season goes how we think, it'll very clearly be Jeremiah." (52:18)

7. Devonta Smith 2.0?—23 TD Catches: Is it Attainable? (55:03)

• Context: Devonta Smith (Bama) had 23 TDs in 2020. Smith’s best season at OSU: 15 TDs.
• Panel Consensus: Possible, but highly unlikely—would require several multi-TD games, OSU making a deep playoff run, and a shift in red-zone philosophy.
  • [Andrew] "23 is just so many…teams are really gonna say anybody but JJ down here." (56:10)
  • [Stephen] "You can't have a bad game if you're gonna get 23 touchdowns…he is human, last I checked." (57:39)
  • [Bill] "Only 31 of Smith's 215 targets in the last two seasons were in the red zone—maybe throwing the ball in the red zone more, maybe?" (61:47)
• Throw to Smith in the red zone!: 16 TDs on 31 red-zone targets (62:01)
  • [Doug] "Could Jeremiah Smith be their goal-line back? Like, their goal-line play is throw the ball to Jeremiah." (62:28)
• Unless OSU totally shifts to red-zone heaving (and Smith stays healthy all year), panel believes 20+ TDs is out of reach—but not impossible if OSU "lets it rip" in playoff games (64:31).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On transfer tampering & recruiting landscape:
  "The best player in college football can be poked and prodded at. And that's a big deal for Ohio State." — Andrew Gillis (04:37)
• On YAC struggles & WR usage:
  "Ban curl flats in the woody." — Bill Landis (17:24)
• On legacy and self-awareness:
  "He didn't poo-poo [the records]...he sort of went, 'Yeah I know Mecca has this many catches, Olave has this many TDs.' You're allowed to acknowledge a legacy." — Doug Lesmerises (18:56)
• On OSU passing attack volume:
  "Do we have to let the dream of what 2021 was go?...I don't know that they'll ever have that much volume again." — Stephen Means (39:18)
• On red zone priorities:
  "Throw him the ball. Red zone. What are we doing?" — Bill Landis (61:59)
• On Smith’s intangible impact on OSU’s 2026 offense:
  "Until they start playing football, everybody else is an idea and Jeremiah Smith is reality." — Bill Landis (41:56)
• Hypothetical statue:
  "He looks like a statue...he's built like a statue so it really makes it pretty easy." — Doug Lesmerises (55:03)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:02 — Most interesting quote from Jeremiah Smith’s interview (Miami tampering/open recruiting talk)
• 10:08 — Honest self-critique on YAC, deep dive on OSU’s YAC regression
• 17:57 — "Angry Jeremiah" and the impact of motivation after awards “snubs”
• 22:41 — How many catches/targets should Smith get per game?
• 34:32 — Odds and requirements of reaching 4,000 career receiving yards
• 44:39 — Heisman conversation: What it takes, potential pitfalls, and why Smith is set up for a run
• 55:03 — Is a Devonta Smith-style 23-TD season realistic for Smith?
• 61:47 — Red zone stats & the case for using Smith as the de facto goal-line weapon

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Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive, often passionate, and occasionally humorous look at Jeremiah Smith’s legacy-in-progress—what sets him apart, where he still needs support from the staff, and why 2026 could be a truly historic campaign. Each panelist brings stats, perspective, and personality to an episode that both celebrates and challenges the OSU offense to maximize a once-in-a-generation talent.

For diehard Buckeye fans or curious CFB observers alike, this episode captures the palpable excitement—and anxiety—of following a program and a player aiming for the history books.

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Transcript

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[Bill Landis]

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[Doug Lesmerises]

Welcome back to around the Shoe on the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lamres and Bill Landis joined by two outstanding members of the Ohio State beat every Monday. Welcome to the first members of the Three Timers club here on around the Shoe. Andrew Gillis and Stephen Means from cleveland.com Andrew, congratulations. Thanks for being here.

[Andrew Gillis]

You said we're going to get a certificate. I'm just waiting for that. I was only here for the prize, so.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, looking forward to that.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Yeah, we'll get the intern on that. Stephen, thanks as always for being here. You had. It's a Jeremiah Smith episode. If we had done a Jeremiah Smith episode and had not invited you, we would have justifiably heard about it.

[Bill Landis]

We'd have been fighting in the Woody and Bill is significantly larger than me. But on that day, I would have won.

[Stephen Means]

You're scrappy.

[Bill Landis]

You're scrappy.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Yeah.

[Andrew Gillis]

Crazy beads big.

[Doug Lesmerises]

That. That's true. People are very interested in who I'm gonna fight next. And that. That would have been it. And it would have been Stephen Rings. Stephen Means bringing the heat to me. This is a Jeremiah Smith exclusive episode, which means we might do a little bit of that in there. How's that look, everybody? Hello, I'm Jeremiah Smith. If you're listening on a podcast, we have the Jeremiah Smith photo just hanging out there in the middle of the screen. I don't. We don't have to have it up there the whole time, Bill. But I mean, like, come on. Right? I mean, that brings the eyeballs in, doesn't it? Come on.

[Stephen Means]

You're. You're just proud of your Photoshop work to remove the background from the picture. I get it.

[Doug Lesmerises]

It is.

[Bill Landis]

This is the.

[Doug Lesmerises]

This is the most advanced.

[Stephen Means]

Yeah.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Graphic design I've ever done. We are going to talk about Jeremiah Smith exclusively on the show because we get. Did get to speak with for the first time since before the Cotton bowl on Saturday at the Woody Hayes Athletic Center. We had Cortez Hankton, the receivers coach, we had Jeremiah Smith. And so guess what? If we're going to talk to the best receiver in college football, the best player in college football, maybe we are going to talk about the best receiver in college football. Five topics, five questions. With Bill, with me, with Andrew, with Stephen, Andrew Gillis, we will start with you. And the question is this. We were all there at Jeremiah Smith's interview on Saturday. What was the most interesting thing that he said? What caught your ear when you got this guy sitting down entering his third season of college football and you think, oh, my goodness, Jeremiah, that was pretty interesting.

[Andrew Gillis]

I really didn't want to go first for this one because I wanted to hear what everybody else had to say. But the one where, you know, you're. You're taking your recorder, you're. You're trying to listen intently and your head snaps up. When he started talking about a certain program and he said that at the end of the year, a certain program was going to come at me very hard. He said, I'm not going to say any names, but I think we all know who that is. And I don't know, maybe that was just only interesting to me. But just the fact that we live in this world where you mentioned last time we talked to him was before the Cotton bowl. And he said, like, yeah, if Miami was in this position, maybe I would have been at Miami. You know, maybe if they had the program, right, I would have been there. And the next time we talked to him, he goes, well, essentially they tried and they didn't succeed. Because, Doug, I think you asked him the question before that, you know, was it ever a doubt that you were going to be here? And said, no, I was always going to be at Ohio State. But it's just, it was kind of a Jeremiah Smith thing that, you know, we live in this world where, you know, best player in college football can be, you know, poked and prodded at. And that's a big deal for Ohio State. But it was just interesting to me that people could just almost like, speak freely about this. Now, right? In recruiting, I hear about this a lot where it's like, you know, kid will pull me aside or whatever, and, you know, oh, I'm, you know, this kid's there, this school's trying, or this coach is trying to. And I'm telling him no. And you haven't signed pen to paper. So It's a little bit more excusable. This is just openly tampering.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Andrew Gillis]

And like, every program and every team, I guess, does this. But for him to say that I just. I went, whoa.

[Bill Landis]

He.

[Andrew Gillis]

He just kind of said. He just kind of said it. Like, you know, he just admitted it out loud. So that was the one for me where I went, like, whoa.

[Stephen Means]

Like, I.

[Andrew Gillis]

He says a lot.

[Doug Lesmerises]

I'm surprised that I will say. Did you guys get on the old Twitter machine on Saturday? Then there were some Miami folks who didn't love that. Like, there was definitely like.

[Stephen Means]

Like, that Miami folks had something to say on the Internet. Are you serious?

[Doug Lesmerises]

Because. But I, like, I don't think he said it, like, in an inflammatory way. And he almost was like, well, I'm not going to say their name, but, I mean, come on, what are we doing here? But, you know, there are. It's one of those things where, like, the stuff happens. But then, like, there were Miami fans who almost, like, took offense at the implication of a thing that almost, like, it's certainly true, but it's just. I don't know, Stephen, you have, like, your. You know what I mean? Like, it's like they were mad, but it's like, what are you mad about?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, it's. You [e-mail] in 2010 when LeBron left Cleveland and went to my. Ironically went to Miami. That's the trade off. They got my. They got LeBron for four years. We get JJ for three years, and we're all good. It's.

[Andrew Gillis]

It's.

[Stephen Means]

Write down that story idea.

[Doug Lesmerises]

It's like, I know you're mad about LeBron. There's a preschooler right now that is gonna even this all out. It's in here.

[Bill Landis]

It's in here. I just didn't get to it before the Cotton bowl, but I just. It felt like the entire time LeBron was down there in Miami, there was social media was. It was what it is today. But you could just feel the hurt fans in Cleveland, and it just never went away. And so. And it felt like every time there was a chance to ask LeBron about Cleveland, he got asked about Cleveland. And even if he gave the most obvious, well, no, duh. You tried to go get the best player in the world. You would feel Cleveland fans, like, stop taunting us. You didn't have to leave us.

[Stephen Means]

You chose to leave.

[Bill Landis]

And I am almost wondering what Jeremiah's relationship is with, like, Miami in general right now, because, well, no, duh. Miami tried to come get the best player in the Country. Imagine pairing that with Malachi Tony. Right. I mean, you said it on your own podcast, like, do you think Miami would be the favorite right now if they added Jeremiah Smith? Maybe. But it is interesting where he doesn't even have to say Miami's name, but Miami knows everything Jeremiah says, and so if it even feels like he's hinting at Miami, it becomes a thing. Thing.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Which would be so ironic if the Dolphins end up with, like, the number two pick in the NFL draft next April, and he goes home. But it's. It's. Yeah, he didn't stay home. Somehow Miami found out a way to be good anyway, and so now it isn't like a. Well, no, duh. You didn't stay home to Miami. It's a crapshoot. They're a good football program, and you're here, and they're going to let you hear about it every time they get a chance to let you hear about it. And I almost wonder how he feels about that away from the microphones that, like, yeah, he should be a hero down there. And now it feels like it's 50. 50. You're a hero to some, while we're others. You're the guy who's like a traitor, essentially.

[Doug Lesmerises]

It is interesting, and I think there maybe is a distinction here between Miami the university and the football program and Miami the community and the city, and that, like, you know, that there's certainly some of the reaction on Twitter was like, you know, the. The. The real Miami guys stay home and. And do this for. For the community and, like, do it for the state. Do it for the city. Which, if he. Bill, if he was from Ohio and had gone to Miami and, like, all of this was in reverse, and he was like, well, you know what? That. That school in scarlet and gray was trying to come get me, but I was like, no, I'm not doing it. People in Ohio would be like, you left us. Keep our name. Like, you can see it in reverse. Buckeyes fans would be mad, right?

[Stephen Means]

Yeah, I think so. You know, you feel scorned, and I think there's only kind of1,1. One way to react when that happens. All you guys have me thinking about now is what's going to happen when the Dolphins have the first pick in the draft next year and don't take Jeremiah because I need a quarterback.

[Andrew Gillis]

They're going to take a kid from Michigan and Dante Moore, they're gonna be like, come on down, buddy, and everybody's gonna be pissed.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Wow. There. Yeah, they. Oh. Because I was Trying to think, like, stink for Smith, junk it up for J.J. like, whatever. Like, whatever. The billboard should be in Miami this year to just blow it and be terrible. But they got Malik Willis. They don't.

[Podcast Host (Hallmarkies Podcast)]

They don't.

[Doug Lesmerises]

They're set. They just need to.

[Stephen Means]

Oh, well, maybe, actually. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, if he's. They're going to pay him, like, he's a starter, so then maybe Jeremiah can go home. This will all be fine.

[Doug Lesmerises]

That would be a riot, right on the streets of Miami if they had the number one pick and didn't take Jeremiah Smith. When people. That would be okay.

[Andrew Gillis]

They picked Ted Ginn over Brady Quinn, and people lost their minds.

[Bill Landis]

Like, yeah, but neither one of those dudes grew up.

[Stephen Means]

45 minutes. You want to make some more LeBron comparisons?

[Doug Lesmerises]

Yeah, I'm just. Now. Now I'm envisioning Stephen Means reporting live from the streets of Miami on draft day as the city burns behind him after the Dolphins took Arch Manning number one. And he's like, you know, I don't know if I'm gonna make it out of here live, but I don't. This is certainly a questionable decision. Reporting on the Jeremiah Smith beat, I'm Stephen Means. All right, Stephen, what would. Like, he. It was interesting.

[Podcast Host (Hallmarkies Podcast)]

Like, it was a.

[Doug Lesmerises]

It was a pretty good seven minutes with jj. What'd you think? What caught your ears? The same thing or something different?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, no, it's something different. I've always appreciated how real JJ keeps it up there and his ability to. If we're thinking it, he's definitely thinking it, too. You are not crazy media member for thinking this. So he got to ask, like, hey, what do you want to get better at this year and immediately be better at yards after the catch? Has been an emphasis in the receiver room this year. I think they were, like, the worst team in yards after the catch last year. We didn't have any guys that had juice with the ball in their hands. And I feel like he has a podcast. Just feel like he has pod, because I'm sorry, we all saw it. Hey, it feels like everything you do, the ball has to travel 40 yards in order to get there. Like Ohio State's offense turned into Run it with Bo. Run it with Bow. Replace Bo with CJ Donaldson on third and long play action. Deep shot to Jeremiah Smith or Carnell Tate. More often than not, they're going to catch it. That's fine. But you have a young quarterback, and that worked until you ran in a Akeem Mazador and Ruben Bane in Indiana. And all Of a sudden, your offensive line couldn't hold up. So I was thinking about what he meant by worst. Like, did he mean worse in the Big Ten? Did he mean worst in the country? Like, worst we've ever seen in the history of football? And so I did find some stats that kind of messed with worst. I looked up every wide receiver trio that Ohio State has had on this side of COVID So in 2021, Garrett Wilson, Chris Olava and Jackson Smith and Jigba combined to average 6.2 yards after the catch. In 2022, Marv Julian and Mecca combined to average 6 yards after the catch. In 2023, Marv Julian and Mecca combined to average 7.1 yards after the catch. In 2024, JJ Carnell and the Mecca 5.7 yards after the catch. Last year, Jeremiah Smith, Carnell Tate and Brandon is 4.4 yards after the catch is what they So I am going to take worst meaning. I mean, this side of COVID we've never had a group be under 5 yards after the catch combined with the three the starting wide receivers until last year. And I just felt like that played as much of a role in why they ended up losing the last two games. As the offensive line breaking down as offensive coordinator who had never done this before, is that they. Whether it was because they didn't have it as a skill set or they didn't try to tap into it, Ohio State has gotten away from 2017, 2018, 2019. We have faster guys than you. Let's run mesh routes and shallow routes and dig routes, get the ball in the hands of these guys on the run and then make somebody miss and let's go to the house, that's not been where they were at. So I think whether you're a fan and you heard Jeremiah Smith say that, or you're a media member who has been screaming it into a microphone for the last three months. It was good to hear not just a coach who's from the outside looking in, but the best player on the team say something that was quite obvious that we were not good at this last year. We need to be better at this. And it starts with me.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Yeah, Introspective, right? It's like, hey, hey, guy who's really good. What do you think? Well, I'm not. I'm not that good at this, Bill, like you like. And they. You looked a couple of those stats, too. I mean, those are really interesting stats even, because again, is it not the best standard for Ohio State is Ohio State. So it's like, to go through, and it's like, okay, well, look, this is what Garrett and Chris and. And JSN did. Like, this is. This is the standard. And you guys were not up to that. But also, like, nationally, they weren't that good, Bill. Right?

[Stephen Means]

They were not. Yeah, I've been. I've been looking up numbers for this show, and I'm gonna write a story about that, too on the sub stack. And I just. I've been getting angry at the numbers.

[Bill Landis]

They were.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Can you believe this? Goodbye. I gotta write this. Yeah.

[Stephen Means]

Yards after the catch per reception. So the average. They were 106th in the country last year, 5.19. That is the first time since 2020 they've been below 6. Usually they're like, middle of the pack nationally, to be honest. Like, they've only been very good under Ryan Day one year. That was in 2021, when they were 12, when that passing offense was electric. So it's not like there's some.

[Bill Landis]

It's.

[Stephen Means]

This is not something that they are routinely elite that they were bad at last year. They're kind of like, routinely average at it, and they were bad at it last year. But it still doesn't make any sense. And I think Stephen's right to compare it to kind of to past seasons of Ohio State and those sort of starting trios and how those guys performed. And I've been like, really. I've been really digging in this stuff. Relative to this. I got some numbers for you guys. Do you know how many times in the last two years that Jeremiah Smith has run a slant?

[Doug Lesmerises]

Oh, no, I remember one. Is it one?

[Bill Landis]

No.

[Stephen Means]

Yeah. Yo, the one you remember is the one where he caught and ran through five defenders and scored a touchdown. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The answer, it's 37, which may be higher than you would have assumed. Do you know how many times he's run a drag route? I'm just looking at stuff like what's quick and moving over the middle of the field. How many times you think Jeremiah's run a drag route?

[Bill Landis]

I would say it's less than 25.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Close.

[Stephen Means]

It's 30.

[Bill Landis]

Okay.

[Stephen Means]

How many times does he run a curl or a hitch?

[Bill Landis]

Every single play of every single time he is on the field, it is a curl, a hitch, or a 9 route. They don't know what a route tree is. So I'm excited. I'm sorry.

[Stephen Means]

I'm getting upset.

[Andrew Gillis]

I'm getting upset.

[Stephen Means]

148.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

Big thanks to our sponsor, BetterHelp, for partnering with us for this Important conversation about mental health. This is Steve Smith here, former NFL wide receiver and host of the 89 show on YouTube. So having a counselor and working with BetterHelp, that gives you an opportunity to really start to unpack. But people don't understand when you unpack things, you also open up a box that you're not always sure what's inside. So I think that's why seeing a professional is extremely important. If you need someone to open up to, visit betterhelp. That's betterhelp.com89 to get started.

[Doug Lesmerises]

TaxAct understands you haven't memorized the tax code. That's why TaxAct has live experts to help. TaxAct can even do it for you if you prefer. It's the easiest way to know you're doing it right. Well, other than going back to college and obtaining a bachelor's degree in accounting with a minor in finance, then interning somewhere and becoming fluent in all tax forms, but that might be hard to accomplish before tax day. So maybe just stick with TaxAct Tax Act. Let's get them over with. Okay, so I always feel like that's a little bit of an evolution for a quarterback, is sort of like throwing that stuff in the middle of the field on the move. I wonder how much of that is related to like, well, year one it was Will Howard, who's a veteran but is like learning the offense and they're just trying to, you know, figure it out. And then year two is Julian saying as a second year player, first year starter, and could the evolution of the quarterback, Julian back for year or two as a starter, lead to more of these middle of the field on the move kind of throws? Or maybe just this show will lead to more of these throws because we know you're listening, Arthur. Come on, man. What are we doing? Stephen and Landis are coming for you.

[Bill Landis]

Ban curl flats in the woody.

[Stephen Means]

That's why they're gonna run it 25 times in the spring game. I can't wait. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Is the passing edition of Stretch to the boundary.

[Stephen Means]

You're absolutely right, partner.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Oh, my God. Look at you guys. God. Just a bunch of ball knowers getting mad at the best receipt. But. But here's the thing that you like. And then the best receiver in the country is like, yeah, he's got one arm around Stephen and one arm around Landis. He's like, what are we doing with these routes, guys? Come on. You guys are like, yes, my guy. Landis, what did you think was the most interesting thing that JJ said?

[Stephen Means]

I'm excited to see what, like, Angry Jeremiah does this year, right? Like, he's mad that he didn't win the bullet in the cough. He's mad that he missed that block and allowed for the count to keep deontay. Scott, pick six. And it's like, you've been great the last two years without much of a reason to be angry. What's it going to look like now that you're pissed off and very good. So, like, I think if we're looking for, like, an uptick in production or, like, whatever, like, I get, like, a different level of. Of play or energy or urgency out of Jeremiah, which I don't. I don't know that people think that's been lacking in any regard the last two years, but I think we'll see it. Like. Like the fact that he sort of went to that play in the Miami game on his own and he didn't talk about the Blitnikov, I don't think, on. On Saturday, but he certainly had feelings about it on social media, which I don't blame him because he should have won last year. I'm. I'm just. I'm excited. I like when guys who are very good are very angry because usually that leads to good things on the thing. The field.

[Doug Lesmerises]

So I think.

[Stephen Means]

I think we're gonna see a little bit of a villain version of Jeremiah on the field this year. That should be pretty entertaining.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Angry Jeremiah is good. I will say I. I almost was tempted to make this show just like, five questions on over unders, like 1400 receiving yards over or under, you know, like, all that kind of stuff. Because Stephen, you did ask him about sort of his awareness of Ohio State record books, and he said, like, yeah, like, I. I know. Like, he didn't. He didn't poo poo. And it wasn't like it's the main focus of his life, but that he is in position. Like, if he's healthy and has a normal year, anything like the first two, he's going to break every career record at Ohio State. And. And you asked it, Steven. I just thought, like, it was a. Enough of an acknowledgment of, like, your place in history without dwelling on it, but without, like, swatting it away that he was sort of like, yeah, I know Mecca has this many catches and Olave has this many touchdowns. Sometimes when you ask guys those questions, they just dismiss it. But he didn't completely dismiss it, which I thought was just like, okay, it's a. You're allowed to acknowledge that you've got a legacy on the line here.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Remember when we were doing Hick and Jackson Smith the jig but get 2000 yard podcast a couple of years ago? And then we asked Jackson about it, he was like, yeah, that's cool. Anyway, I just want to win a national title. And then I went in there and asked Bar, like, hey, I think you're going to be awesome. Do you think you're gonna be awesome? He's like, I don't know. I guess we'll see. And there's nothing wrong with that humility. But also, it's okay to go. While I'm not just, like, focused on just the records. A Mecca, Michael Jenkins and Chris Olave. I am coming for your heads. It's okay to say that. So I like this room. I like the fact that we have more diva wide receivers. We got to get away from the. The nice guy wide receivers. Get back to the guys who talk a little trash.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, like, yeah, no, that's good. And he. He has a very good. I just thought. Did you guys think generally? Bill and I were talking about it, he just seemed, like, a little more open, like, a little more, like, willing to, like, give longer answers. And it just. It happens with everybody. You're in your third year. You're a veteran. You're sure of yourself. You're not worried about, am I going to say something wrong? But I thought it was just like, yeah, this is going to be fun to. To watch this guy play football for last year in Columbus. But, like, it's also going to be fun to talk with him about playing football because, like, I think he's ready for all of it.

[Andrew Gillis]

I think it was interesting, too. Like, his freshman year, like, it wasn't like, this is new. Like, his freshman year, he. I forget when it was that interview, but they asked him about the Oregon opi, and he was like, I guess you can't be physical in football anymore. And it's like that a freshman would say this when, like, look, I. It was an offensive pass interference. His arms extended. The guy went flying five yards back. It was an offensive pass interference. But for him to just, like, get to the mic and say that, I think Doug's right, that he, like, he feels more comfortable maybe explaining things, but that mentality has certainly, like, always been there for him.

[Doug Lesmerises]

That's true. That's very true. All right, let's get to question number two. Stephen, we'll start with you again. I. I didn't just want to do only stats, right? But I Think there's a lot of interesting statistical stuff here. Jeremiah smith last average 6.7 catches per game. How many catches would you like to see him average this year? And just like I, we could have a target discussion, which is certainly part of the catch discussion. Marvin Harrison Jr. Went from 5.9 catches per game in 2022 to 5.6 in 2023. And some of this conversation is how teams are going to defend you. Are they going to take you away? I think some of the conversation is like, who's around you. It's partly your quarterback thing. It's what your offensive coordinator wants to do, but let's set it like a good number. Stephen, how many catches per game should JJ be getting this year?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I said eight catches per game on 10 to 12 targets. Okay. I, I kind of turned it into a targets conversation for me because the more times you throw it at him, the more times he's going to catch it. He's got, I think five or six, 10 target games in his career. He's got Oregon twice in 2024. And then last year he had Texas, Ohio, Wisconsin and Purdue. I just don't think that's enough. That's gotta go. I just, I almost would be okay with. If we looked at Ohio State's play calling in a game. It was like, oh, Jeremiah Smith got the ball once every six plays. I don't think that is a bad thing. And it's not just because I think he's a good football player. I'm trying to think about what has to happen for Ohio State to get to what, at least right now looks like a harder schedule. Like a significantly harder schedule where they can't just scrimmage teams every Saturday can. Do you think Ohio State can beat Indiana, Oregon, usc, Texas, Michigan, and win a Big Ten championship game if Jeremiah Smith is averaging five catches a game? Probably not. Probably not. That's just the way the schedule might work out this year. I would almost want you to put the ball in your best player's hands as much as possible. Which is why when Stefan asked Arthur Smith, hey, can you give the ball to Jeremiah Smith? Too many times? The first thing he said was, well, I gave the ball to Derrick Henry 300 plus times. So that again, if you're, if you're a fan, because that's why we're there. We're in the woody. On behalf of the fans, I think between Arthur Smith, Jeremiah Smith and Cortez Hankton, we heard some things where I don't think me saying, hey, this kid should touch the ball eight times a game with 10 to 12 targets. I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation based off the way the three most important people to making that happen have talked about Jeremiah Smith so far.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Okay, Bill, what's your number?

[Stephen Means]

I. I would maybe twist it a little bit and make it touches rather than just receptions and say I'd like the ball in his hands 10 times a game, whichever combination that needs to be. Obviously he's not gonna. I don't think he's gonna average like one rushing attempt per game. So we're still talking primarily catches. But he. I think he had. He had six rushing attempts as a freshman and three last year. So he's got nine in two years. I think he could have like 10 this year maybe on top of whatever he gets receiving wise. I do think the target share needs to go up some. I like to see that number be double digits consistently. And then I think you are talking about a guy who's probably going to get the ball in his hands about ten times or more per game. It's hard. I understand that. Especially when he's still playing outside as much as he is. I think, I think part of this conversation, it also ties into the yak conversation is can you move him around more? I. I kind of believe that Arthur Smith will like. I. And watching Arthur Smith or even talking about Arthur Smith, like people sort of make jokes about like, oh, like John who Smith, right? Like you move John who Smith around a lot and throwing the ball some and John New Smith is like basically a big receiver. I'm not saying that he and Jeremiah Smith are the exact same player. But. But I wonder if. And I can look at the way that Arthur Smith used Kyle Pitts too. Like, I just wonder if there's some more creative ways to align Jeremiah that would make getting him the ball a little easier than it is sometimes. Because he was also asked, I think Austin Ward asked him about seeing like double and triple coverage and cloud coverage all the time. And obviously you get frustrated by that and you know, you can only do so much, I think, to combat it. But I wouldn't say that maybe Ohio State didn't do enough last year to try to combat that. So I would like to see him move around a little bit more. And I think if he does that, then this number of targets and catches goes up with it.

[Doug Lesmerises]

I do think, like this is the Alonzo morning meme, right? Which is Arthur Smith likes to throw the ball to tight ends, but he thinks of Jeremiah Smith As a tight end. Oh, you know, like.

[Stephen Means]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Like, he just likes big, physical guys. Oh, like, let's do this. I'm gonna be. I'm not gonna ask for much. I just don't want it to go down. And I do. This is one of the things I do think it's a similar conversation to Marv. Right. That I do. Like you did. Marvin Harrison Jr. Had such an unbelievable first year as a starter, and then, like, the next year, like, everybody was like, kind of all over him. And. And he's. His production, like, went slightly down. And so I'll say like seven per game. Because here's the thing, too. Ohio State's never had 100 reception season that Jackson, Smith, and Jigba holds the record currently with 95. There have been, like, more than a hundred. 100 catch seasons in college football history. Like, I. Can we just get a. Can we get triple digits for a Buckeye on the board? Is that too much to ask? Like, I don't think the ghost of Woody Hayes is going to have a problem with that. Like, go. I mean, again, if it's. Woody Hayes is like, throw this guy. Well, he's a big, physical guy. It's like, okay, we're fine. I'm not. Like, I'm not. I'm not worried about it, but I'm curious about how much defenses will sell out to stop him. Especially, like, as you're trying to figure out who's the second most dangerous pass catcher on the field. And then will you, like, give in to the double coverage and be like, well, they took him away. Or will you fight it and will you move him around and put him in motion and get him touches in unique ways? Like, it is that. Is anybody else, like, a little curious about that? I may be using. Because I felt like we. Marvin, I. I feel like especially early that year, like, they had. They kind of had trouble getting him the ball in September, and then they kind figured it out later in the year. I don't think it would be a great thing for Ohio State if it feels like, oh, yeah, they played Texas and he had like, four catches on seven targets because, like, Texas took him out of the game. And we, like, we saw Texas do that before. Right?

[Bill Landis]

Like.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Like, I just like that. That world. Like, we've seen it before. He's two years older. A lot has changed. But I'm not. I'm not dismissing that idea. Right. Is that on anybody else's mind at all?

[Bill Landis]

I think the one reason I am. If I was. Maybe if I Would say I was 40 worried about it. Maybe I'm only like 15. Worried about it is okay. He does have the benefit that maybe the other receivers here haven't had. Not. It's that he gets to have the same quarterback again. Right? Like Marv went from CJ to Kyle, even Garrett and Chris went from Justin to cj. Mecca had three different quarterbacks here as a starting receiver, he's the one guy who gets, oh, I had Julian for a year and now I get Julian for a second year. Jackson would have gotten that in 2022, but thanks to a hammy, we never really got to see what that is going to look like. And so if you've already got chemistry with the quarterback baked in because you've played was that 14 games together. And I have a weird feeling that especially early in the year, with all due respect to the other nine guys in the, in the room, Julian sand might major and minor in Jeremiah Smith. That might just solve itself because some of the conversations might just be, yeah, I'm just gonna throw out the four. I know what you're saying in my helmet right now, but I'm just gonna throw up the four and we're gonna see what happens.

[Doug Lesmerises]

I'm gonna make a T shirt with this on it and I'm gonna give it to Julian saying. And I'm just gonna ask him or, or Julian saying, what if Julian Stan got this photo of Jeremiah tattooed right on his chest. Right like right down, like from your, from your nibs right down to your belly button. It's like I just got a giant Jeremiah Smith and it says never forget. And it's like, it's like, oh my God, what happened to Jeremiah? It's like, oh no, they just only threw him the ball five times against Texas. It's fine, it's. He's okay. They just need to throw him the ball more. All right, Andrew, what's your number here?

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, I'm kind of in the middle, I guess between, I guess literally in the middle between Doug and Stephen. I'm at seven and a half. That'd be 90 over a 12 game span. So you play two postseason game that gets you into triple digits. Like I, I do agree with Doug of this idea of if teams are just going to sell out and what if Chris Henry Jr. Pops and Christianity Jr. Is really good. Or you know, you find a Kyle Parker, Brandon ennis somebody, Devin McEwen somebody on this receiving core takes a step. The quarterback brain part of this is fascinating because like you were saying, it's like here, there's jj, never forget. But also Brandon Ennis is four yards open across the middle, like your brain is going to tell you to do that. But JJ's on the other side. Like it's, it's a rewiring, I think, where you're probably just going to throw it to the open guy and that's fine. The seven and a half number I think is going to be varied because Stephen was mentioning their schedule and that's true. You're going to play a lot more. You know, you got Oregon, Indiana, Michigan, Texas. Like you got those big games on the schedule and you're going to him. But I wonder if that almost causes Ohio State to go, hey, JJ, he went 4 for 120 and two touchdowns against Maryland. And we're up 24 to nothing in the second quarter. Put some slides on, kick your feet up, you're good. We, we just had a, we have a war and we got Indiana coming up soon or, you know, hey, usc, we, you know, we, we blew through them and now we got Northwestern, like Northwestern, fine. You know, maybe three catches and 90 yards and a touchdown and then you're good. You know, you show up, you, you make your spectacular player too. And then you're done because, you know, hey, Oregon's coming down the line. Hey, Michigan's coming down the line. I wonder if that's part of it. So I think you can end up at 7.5 with a situation where like you end up with four catches against Maryland.

[Bill Landis]

Two extremes.

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, five catches against Iowa and then nine against Texas, 10 against Texas, you know, and then the following week or whatever, it's, you know, you play Oregon, the Oregon, Northwestern swing. You average, you get 15 catches in those two weeks. It's just 12 and three.

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[Doug Lesmerises]

we'll have a little bit more of a statistical conversation, including with question number three, bill for you. There are 24 college football receivers who have at least 4,000 career yards. And like, to be honest, like a lot of these guys are sort of like, you know, some lower level guys or their air raid guys or that kind of thing. It's not like 4, 000 career receiving yards. Just is, you know, what every good receiver does. Jeremiah's at 25:54. What's the percent chance that he gets to 4, 000 career receiving yards? He would need 14:46 to get there. If he did that, that would be the second highest single season total in Ohio State history. David Boston's at 1435. JSN has the best at 1606. So Landis4,000. Will it get to 4000? What percent?

[Stephen Means]

You're sort of asking what's the percent chance that Ohio State's going to play for a national championship? Because he's gonna, he's gonna need those games, right? Unless we think his average is going to go up a lot. Because if he, if he just played to his career average, he would need to play more than 16 games. So. And, but I think he'll, I think his career average will go up this year for some of the, like, some of the reasons we sort of addressed already. So I don't know, I'd say like 60, maybe that he gets here. That's a lot, that's a lot of yards. It's, it's, that's a, that's a heck of a season to put together. And you have to factor in like how much is Ohio State going to run the ball? I think some of what, what Andrew touched on there too is like, well, you know, what's the load management situation for Jeremiah look like? So I don't know. I, I'm not like super bullish on the idea of him getting there. I was looking at this the other day actually, to see how far away he was from 4,000. I think it's in the, within the realm of possibility, sure. But, but I don't think it's really like all that close to a guarantee. So I'll say 60%.

[Andrew Gillis]

Okay.

[Doug Lesmerises]

And then again, this folds back into the ongoing never ending pace of play discussion around Ohio State, which is like, I mean of all the reasons to speed up a little bit I think there are football reasons. I think. I think there's plenty of reasons. It's not really. But, like, it's fun, isn't. It isn't. Like, can't you just. Can we just get a little more jj? Like, more plays is more Jeremiah. Like, it's not a terrible idea. I'll say 30%. Just because I do think it's. It's one of those things, you know, 15 games at 100 yards a game is like, what would get him there. But, like, that's like, that's both ends of the spectrum. That's like, you know, not being abducted by aliens like he was for a little bit last season. That's. Pace of play. That's. Do you stay in games and blowouts or not? But I do think, Andrew, you make an interesting point of, like, the fact that they actually are playing a tougher schedule probably increases the chances of some of this. That's like, we need him on the field. We need to feed him in order to win. It's not like a vanity project to just get Jeremiah Smith empty yards. It's like, no, he's the best player on our team. We're trying to beat some excellent teams. He has to have a big game for us to win. It's hard because I think, like, it, like, Ohio State fans, I think, like, you want to say 100. It's like, what, 1446, come on. That's in the bag. But I'm already, like. I'm, like, girding myself for, like, you know, like, you come away from the Texas game, and it's like, man, defenses are going to make his life difficult. So I'll say 30%. Andrew, what's your number?

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, this. This was maybe the harder question that we had. I said 51, because I think maybe it's more likely it happens than not. But it's really, really close to a coin flip, kind of. For all the reasons that we talked about where it's just. You said it, Doug. What if we get out of that Texas game and, you know, we. We go, oh, this is just the Jordan rules. But in football, and the defense is going to say, not him and Brandon ennis or Devin McEwen or Kyle Parker or Christianity, maybe all of them, like, they're all going to be beneficiaries of this, and it's just going to be really difficult for J.J. but Bill was right. I. I think 1446, like, that feels you can. Like, you can get there if you play a postseason game or two, because, you know, I. Yes, I guess the, the negative side of this exists where, you know, you get through the Texas game and he went. He had five catches for 31 yards. That's. It's not great. I mean, maybe Ohio State won the game. Maybe Ohio State looked good offensively and they just shut down. Jj it's just, you know, here's how this happened. But there's also the possibility that, like I said, you know, he goes 4 for 120 against Maryland. There's also the possibility he goes like 5 for 210 against Ball State or, you know, 5 for 210 against Kent State, and you're like, hey, that helps. So I said 51. Just because I don't want to be in the business of betting against something Jeremiah Smith can do.

[Bill Landis]

But he doesn't want this to get clipped. So in six months when he does it, I mean, social media, it is

[Andrew Gillis]

going to be difficult. So that's. I just, I kind of went coin flip. But I, I lean. J.J.

[Doug Lesmerises]

stephen, drop. Drop. This is. Drop your number and let's see if it's under 90.

[Bill Landis]

I feel like there's.

[Stephen Means]

Podcast.

[Bill Landis]

Look what this offensive coaching staff has done. We don't even want to have fun anymore because we know they're going to play slow as can be, I guess. Before I drop my number, I want to ask, do we have to let the dream of what 2021 was go in terms of passing attacks at Ohio State?

[Stephen Means]

I don't know that they'll ever have that much volume again.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, okay.

[Doug Lesmerises]

It's, it's, it's. And that's both a conversation about run pass balance and also number of, number of plays, pace of play. You need both combined. Right. You need to be willing to, like, throw the ball like 60 of the time and also play reasonably fast. Right, Stephen? That's what you're talking about?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And it's also, I mean, personnel. I mean, what was that offense? It was a number two pick in the draft. Three, three bona fide wide receiver ones in the NFL and a top 60 pick at running back. Like, I just don't know. I was re watching that Maryland game from 2021 a couple of days ago, and they were putting up their recruiting rankings. And it's like, well, this guy was a five star and this guy was a five star. And it's like they've had good players, but I don't know if they've had that since. But also the defense stunk. We. The defense is not going to stink this year in a way where we're asking because the thing about you guys keep going. They might need to play 16 games. And the first thing I thought of in my head was, well, Jackson did this in 13 games and he had 12 yards in the first game. But then you bake it.

[Stephen Means]

Yeah, but he had like half the yards against a running back.

[Bill Landis]

That's what I was gonna say. The two games were like a bulk of those Cayman were Nebraska and Utah, who was playing Clark, Phillips and the running backs. Right. And so I just. I think 2021 has ruined me and I need to let it go.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Oh, we're sorry. We're sorry that happened to you, Steven.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, it's been a rough time for me.

[Andrew Gillis]

Or.

[Bill Landis]

Or do I just look at it from a different point of view? You're correct. Jackson had 347 yards against running backs. Also. If he doesn't have 347 yards, Ohio State doesn't win the football game. Let's just be frank about that. He had 240 yards against Nebraska also. If he doesn't have 240 yards, Ohio State probably loses that football game. So It's. I said 80%.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Oh, look at you. You're so grown up. You held yourself to 80.

[Bill Landis]

I did.

[Stephen Means]

I was ready to come when you

[Bill Landis]

first sent the list of questions. I was like, he's definitely. It's 400. It's 1400 yards. What do you mean? Is he gonna get that?

[Stephen Means]

What are we talking about here?

[Bill Landis]

But I'll be an adult. The 20 is because what if this coaching staff starts overthinking it again and trying to save themselves and, you know, health and all those different things that matter and so they're playing too slow. What if teams just to the point of Gillis is like, anybody's allowed to beat us, but you're not going to beat us with number four. We're just not going to let that happen. But the other side of that coin is calling me of Arthur Smith, said Derek Henry. And he didn't have to talking to

[Stephen Means]

you like the green goblin mask.

[Bill Landis]

It is, it is, it is. And it's just, listen, we don't know about these other receivers yet. I think we can be excited, but he is still the only person in that room that we are 1000% sure of what he is going to be this year, whether good, bad or indifferent. And so until they start playing football, everybody else is an idea and Jeremiah Smith is reality. And I'm gonna live in that reality of right now. It's March 30th as we're recording this. I would say it's more likely that Jeremiah Smith has 1500 yards than there are, like, three receivers with 600 yards.

[Doug Lesmerises]

And this, it is, it is an interesting part of this conversation that, like, as for Ohio State fans, for the Ohio State offense, like, you want to see other receivers develop, but if they don't, then you might just have to throw the graphic up.

[Bill Landis]

Doug, put the graphic up.

[Doug Lesmerises]

It's like, oh, no, our other receivers didn't develop. What are we gonna do? Oh, we're gonna do that. Okay, we're good. For the podcast listeners, Jeremiah Smith is on the screen again to what you both, you, Andrew and Stephen, what both you guys have been talking about. He has three games in his career of more than 150 receiving yards. His top two games in receiving yards against number one Oregon in the Rose bowl and against Miami last year. Like, he has his biggest games when they need him the most. So the idea of there are going to be more opportunities to need him is like, oh, okay, that actually could be quite like a real thing here. So we have, we have more questions along these lines. We'll get to number four. We'll start with me. Jeremiah Smith is tied for seventh and Heisman odds at 13 to 1. Arch Manning and C.J. carr 8 to 1. Trinidad Chambliss, 10 to 1, Julian say, and Josh Hoover. Dante Moore, the Big Ten quarterback. Trifecta. And at 12 to 1, J.J. is tied with Miami quarterback Darien Men at 13 to 1. What word or phrase would you use to describe Smith's Heisman chances? And I, I think this is going to get into a little bit of. Of question number five, which does relate to Devonte Smith and his Heisman year at Alabama. And I think it's singular. I actually think sort of like the thing that screwed up Jeremiah as a Heisman candidate last year the most was Carnell Tate. The Carnell Tate was so good. It was like, well, I mean, they're equal. I don't know how. And then the. The result was, it's like, who's Ohio State's Heisman candidate? You can't pick a receiver. Then they both get a little bit hurt. It's like, okay, it's the quarterback. The quarterback goes to New York. I said this a year ago. I don't actually think Heisman campaigns matter that much. I do think schools, when they have multiple good players, need to help voters by saying, this is our Heisman candidate. And I sort of said, like, I think maybe last year, maybe it made sense. Make it Julian's turn. I think it's Jeremiah's turn. And so I think like it it. But I think the thing that would lead into that is the more they rely on him as like the whole passing offense, the better his Heisman chances are. And there's a chance that like Devin McEwen blows a hole in Jeremiah Smith's Heisman chances by being awesome, which is great, but also maybe not great for this because then you're like, what are we supposed to do? Jeremiah has 1200 receiving yards but Dev McEwen has 900. It's like, okay, Devonte Smith was like, once Jalen Waddle got hurt that year was like a one man offense for Alabama and that's how he won. So I think to me it's singular. Like you have to be almost the entire passing offense to really make a run at the Heisman. Andrew, what's your word or phrase?

[Andrew Gillis]

Uncontrollable. Because there are words that, or there are things in, you know, Ohio State's fear offensively that, I mean, JJ's not going to dictate. Like JJ, I don't think is walking into coaches meetings going, we should play faster this year. I mean, maybe he can, maybe he will, maybe they'll listen to him. But like if, if Arthur Smith and Ryan Day say, actually, you know, last year playing slow would have worked. We just screwed up and that was why it didn't work. Like, maybe they think that's the same problem. So it depends on that. It, it depends on the receivers. Like you were mentioning Doug. Like, like what if Brandon Ennis takes that step and we're looking at Brandon Ennis as a top 50 NFL draft pick. And is it going to be easy to give JJ the Heisman if, you know, because there's, there's a realistic amount of yards that Julian Sands going to throw for. If JJ's got 1450 yards, let's say he barely gets 4, 000, but Brandon Ennis is at 800 or 900. Does that look as impressive? Right like that, that's, that's the other part. But then it's, it's, it goes back to kind of the Heisman just voting in general. You guys have talked about it. We've talked about it. I think there's kind of this like looming shadow of like could Ohio state really go 9 and 3? Like, like what happens if Ohio State doesn't win some of those big games? Because I'm looking at the list right now. Like arch Manning and CJ Carr right now are at the top. JJ's not the entire offense and they go 10 and 2 even. But CJ Carr and Notre Dame go 12, 0 right? Or looks awesome. He's a quarterback. I don't think anybody's going to dispute Jeremiah Smith is a better football player. But C.J. carr is leading the number one team into the College Football Playoff and Notre Dame average 45 points a game. You know, I know their schedule this, their schedule that, but like the same thing goes for like Josh Hoover, like, oh, Indiana did it again. Like there's all of these things where you kind of look elsewhere and go like, JJ can still be awesome. JJ can have 100 catches for 1600 yards. But whether or not he wins the Heisman is really almost not even up to him because it depends on other players at other schools. It depends on the philosophy that Ohio State wants to take offensively. It takes the the other receivers on the depth chart. I mean, what if Ohio State has a 1500 yard rusher in Bo Jackson because he's just like that or something like that. Like there's all of these different things that can go wrong. So I actually don't hate the number. Like it's actually a 14 one now. I actually, actually don't hate that in terms of God because he is the best player in college football. If you're gonna invest in something, make it that, make it him. But it's just so risky and it's so up and down to where you could convince me he wins a Heisman Trophy. You could convince me he gets the 8th place in voting because given that he's the best player, but he's not a finalist.

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[Doug Lesmerises]

Stephen, what do you think here?

[Bill Landis]

Dependent is my word. I actually think the Julian saying Jeremiah Smith thing is going to be interesting because they did promote both of them. It's just one got hurt, missed a quarter and a half of football, and the other one kept playing football. I think. I actually think Julian sand has a better chance of getting to New York, but if they both get there, Jeremiah Smith has a better chance of winning it because it's. Yeah, it's dependent. And I don't want to just like regurgitate what you guys all said. Yes. Like, what's the offense look like? What's. How many quarterbacks does everybody fall in love with? Does the world just want to give the award to Arch Manning already? What and whatnot. But I do think to take it from a different perspective of like, why did Marv get there? And it's just you watch games and we're like, I mean, come on, man, that's. We, we know what their offense is. But I think he has even a step up from Marv because I think what JJ needs this year is spotlight. He needs to constantly be in the eyes of you of voters every single Saturday. And I think when you have a schedule where Fox Big Noon kickoff is going to be following around Ohio State for the next four months of fall, he's already the best player in the sport and we already know what the Ohio State bubble is in the spotlight that comes with that. I think the opportunity is there for him to get there and actually win the award simply because if you're watching this kid every single week and I don't know, he's mossing dudes and Oregon comes to town with their potentially really good secondary and he's lighting stuff up like it's. I don't think it's impossible, okay. For Jeremiah Smith to win the award. I think it's going to depend on everything that you guys have listed out. But the Runway for a non quarterback at Ohio State in the time since I've been covering this team has maybe never been clearer than it is right now. Where it felt like with Marvin and Chase, when they got there, it was a little bit more matter of fact, after they did the things they were doing.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Devonte Smith won the Heisman in 2020. Mack Jones, the quarterback for Alabama, finished third, also got there. Right. But it's like, but once you kind of, you know, they both had great years. They were the, you know, they won the national championship. They both were great statistically, but it was sort of like, okay, well, like we know it's the receiver first and then the quarterback. Bill, what's your word or phrase?

[Stephen Means]

I, I don't know exactly how to put it, but it just feels like things are, like, syncing up for this to happen this year. So I don't know if it's like, good timing or something like that. As far as the correct phrase. Like, it's always been a little confusing, I think, to figure out who Ohio State's Heisman Trophy candidate is. If the season goes the way we think it'll go, I think it'll very clearly be Jeremiah. I remember, like, in 2021, CJ went to New York. Like, I, I had Garrett Wilson on my ballot that year. I wasn't, I don't think I was a voter in 19, but, but it was hard to sort through Justin fields, Chase Young, J.K. dobbins that year. Right now, I think a lot of people like Julian saying, I don't think a lot of people think Julian saying is the best quarterback in the sport. So, like, he'll get some deserved Heisman love and consideration being a returning finalist, but I don't think they will. If, like, if Julian and Jeremiah both play really well this year, I don't think it'll be split between the two. I think it'll go to Jeremiah because I think it's viewed more like Jeremiah is the one that is helping Julian more than the, more than the other way around. Combine that with Jeremiah's fame. I think there could be, like, a career legacy thing that maybe factors into some people's thinking to get someone to ballot, too. I do expect him to be more productive this year than he has been in this previous two years. I just, like, I, part of me thinks, like, Ohio State understands what's, what's happening this year. Like, they have a guy that they may never have again on this roster and they don't want to let it go to waste. And I, I, I don't know if that means, like, the Heisman campaign starts week one, but maybe it will. There's, like, different people running athletic communications for Ohio State. Maybe they've never really done that before, but I think those people could do that. I just, like, I'd start it now. Why not? Like, don't let people forget about what we're talking about here with singular greatness like Doug is talking about. So I get why the odds are what they are right now. And it is obviously a quarterback award. I tend to think it's pretty good value, too, because I think he's going to make a really, really strong run at this because it just feels like there's a lot of things kind of setting up to make it happen.

[Doug Lesmerises]

If there is anybody from Ohio State watching this, so you guys can have this photo for free. So like if you want to start the Heisman campaign around the photo. Sorry to the podcast listeners. I mean, it's just a great, it's just a great high class photo. Right. And ploy, of course, he's a good player, whatever. But, but I think you could argue the photo is better, even better than the player is. This is the last thing you could

[Stephen Means]

make the statue that you want to.

[Andrew Gillis]

You wanna.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Oh my God. That is the statue.

[Stephen Means]

You want to get that campaign going.

[Bill Landis]

Wait, do we get to be in it? Are we part of the statue?

[Stephen Means]

Yeah. When I say statue, I mean it's Jeremiah and our four faces.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Andrew Gillis]

Screen grab of this.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

If I'm going to go down in history as a sports writer, I want to be next to that guy.

[Andrew Gillis]

But we all got to be like behind him with like a pen and paper, like acting like we're writing what he's saying.

[Stephen Means]

That's right.

[Andrew Gillis]

We're describing his every movement.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Because I mean, the bottom line of this is he looks like a statue like that. Like he already looks like one. Like he's built like a statue. So it really makes it pretty easy. Yeah. Question number five. This is directly related to Devonte Smith. Andrew, we'll start with you again. Devonte Smith is Heisman year in 2020. Had 23 touchdown catches in 13 games. Is 23 touchdowns attainable at all? Jeremiah had 12 touchdowns in 13 games last year. He had 15 touchdowns and 16 games in 2024. Like it? Yes or no? Is this even possible? This is like as, as crazy on the radar as I could think about. Is it, is it even within the realm of possibility? Andrew?

[Andrew Gillis]

Within the realm of possibility? Like, ye, sure, it's got like, but it's low. Like I, I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't, I don't think you're gonna get close to it. So like, you know, could Ohio State make a run in the national championship game? Ohio State plays 16 games. JJ ends up with 23 there.

[Bill Landis]

Sure.

[Andrew Gillis]

But it just. 23 is a lot like he, I was looking this up. He had 37 and a half percent of Julian's passing touchdowns last year. Like JJ accounted for that number. I don't, I mean, I don't know how many passing touchdowns like you guys think JJ or Julian's gonna throw for this year. But I mean, if that number goes up even to like 45, that's a, like you're asking for more than half of his passing touchdowns to go to one guy. And, and that, that just feels unreasonable, you know, Like I, I get it. Like I said, I'm, it's hard to be in the business of betting against Jeremiah Smith, but 23 is just so many because we talked about it. Defense is saying anybody but J.J. like, that's, I don't know, from the, in between the 20s, you get in the red zone especially. And like, I guess he could always break one. But man, teams are really gonna say anybody but JJ down here. So I, I mean it's, it's a tough word. Attainable is a tough word because I, I just don't think it's likely. I, I, I, in fact, I say I don't need know if he's gonna get close to 23. But if Ohio State makes a run to a national championship game, him hitting it because he had three touchdowns against Kent State and Ball State and three against Maryland is not the craziest thing I've ever heard.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Okay, Stephen, what do you think?

[Bill Landis]

You don't know what's crazy. He had 16 before they got to the postseason. That's, that's more than what Jeremiah had in 2024. Like, and then, yeah, I mean, we were there when Ohio State just got baptized by him a bunch of different times, I guess. What do we think his floor is? Like, what is his floor? Amount of touchdowns where we're like, okay, Ohio State had a quality offense because if you start there and if that number is already high, then I can wrap my mind around it. Like, does he need to get 15? And we think that Ohio State like maximized him. And then after that it's like, okay, how many games can he go off to where now? Oh, he had a three touchdown game here. He had a three touchdown game here. Now you're looking up. It's like, oh, what do you know? It's, we're in Las Vegas and he's at 22 and if he scores twice today, he passes Devontae Smith. I, I actually went up to him after his media session, had a conversation with him. I presented a bunch of different numbers to him and he actually wasn't all that interested in the touchdown number. He was interested in the yardage number going back to the, the original one. But I think this one is the, he would need multiple three and four touchdown games to make that happen. And I don't know if you can project something like that. So I am a little less. 23 is a lot of touchdowns. That's a, that's a lot. You can't have a bad game if you're gonna get 23 touchdowns. And I mean, he's still, he is human, last I checked. And so what if he has like one or two games where he only has like 45 yards and doesn't get into the end zone? It's fine because Ohio State won the game anyway. So I, I, this one's. I'm a little bit more out on, on the 23 touchdowns.

[Doug Lesmerises]

It, it really is like the Devonte Smith thing is just such a, it's, it's like outrageous, but it's like a, it's like almost like a mental ex about that. Devonte Smith Conference championship game in the two playoff games, 15 for 184 and two touchdowns, seven for 130 and three touchdowns and 12 for 215 and three touchdowns against Ohio State. Like that's the thing again, we're talking about where, if you're talking about absolute statistical explosions. What if it's that he has a pretty good regular season and then Ohio State makes a playoff run where they're like we're throwing it to JJ 17 times a game and if he doesn't get 175, if he's not at 10 and 175 in every playoff game, we're doing something wrong. And I like, again, we have a little bit of the, of the evidence of his stats go up in big games. It just makes me think about that potential like postseason explosion. But Bill, what are you thinking here?

[Stephen Means]

I think it's going to be really difficult for him to do that. There hasn't been a player who has had 20 touchdowns receiving since Devonte Smith did that. There have been nine, 20 touchdown seasons since 2000. This is really difficult to pull off. I do think I'm looking at Devonte's 2020 season and like his, his percentage of slot snaps think went up a little bit after. Was it Mechi got hurt? Is that right? That year Waddle, Waddle. Waddle got her. Yeah, Waddle got hurt. So, so Smith ended up playing like 37 of his snaps in the slot that season. I think there's a work and like devonte Smith is like he's an outside receiver in the NFL. It's not like he's a slot guy. I think there's a world where Ohio State can get as creative with Jeremiah As Alabama ended up doing with devonte in that season, especially after they had to deal with some of those injuries that would allow for. For some of this to happen. But I don't know if the sport's there anymore.

[Bill Landis]

Right?

[Stephen Means]

With. With just like the guy who won the Heisman had like 35 touchdown passes. Right. Like, I just. We're not in the world of teams have guys having 50 touchdown passes very much anymore. It feels like. So to ask a receiver to do that just feels. Feels like a big ask. So I would say he doesn't get there. One. One other thing I looked up that also made me angry. Among the many things that made me angry looking up Jeremiah, this is. According to Sports Info Solutions, 215 targets over the last two years for Jeremiah Smith. Only 31 of them in the red zone. Maybe throwing the ball in the red zone more maybe.

[Bill Landis]

How many of them were with. With like four tight ends on the field, though?

[Stephen Means]

Well, I don't know. Okay, you know how many touchdowns he has on his 31 red zone targets? 16.

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah,

[Stephen Means]

throw him the ball. Red zone.

[Bill Landis]

What are we doing?

[Andrew Gillis]

Fairness? In fairness, Bill, I don't know how many red zone touch or catches or touches or whatever you could have when you're scoring on half of them. So I don't know if that number can go super high.

[Stephen Means]

I think it can go high. When you're. When you're watching C.J. donaldson take six tries from the two to get in the end zone, I think you can throw one of Jeremiah and see what happens.

[Bill Landis]

I think this was supposed to be fun, and instead what's happened is Bill and I have just been angry the entire time.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Why the best player in the last 30 years of Ohio State football makes me angry. By Bill Anderson, Stephen Mays. I mean, is this not. Could. Could Jeremiah Smith be their goal line back? Like, their goal line play is throw the ball to Jeremiah. Like. Is that what you're saying, Landis? Like. Like, if it's yes.

[Stephen Means]

Yeah, man.

[Bill Landis]

Four tries at it. He's gonna catch one of them.

[Stephen Means]

He only needs one hand to catch the ball.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lesmerises]

So if they do that, if it's like, okay, Jeremiah Smith had had 15 normal touchdowns, and then he had eight touchdowns from the one because they got there, and every time they're just like, boop, boop, boop, man. We're talking 23. Like, that's how you get there.

[Bill Landis]

It takes away from the need to have an explosive running back. It's like, oh, Bo Jackson's gonna get hawked down at the One. It's okay. Let's trot out number four.

[Doug Lesmerises]

And it's not like they've been great at it, right. And like, who do we know for sure is the goal line back this year? We don't know for sure right now who it's going to be. Dewey. So the goal line back is throwing it to Jeremiah Smith.

[Bill Landis]

Can I make Bill angry again, please? It's gonna be Jacoby Jackson.

[Doug Lesmerises]

We have.

[Stephen Means]

It's great. I look forward to Hunter Welsing lined up at fullback blocking for Jacoby Jackson while Jeremiah Smith stands out. Why with his hands stands on the

[Doug Lesmerises]

sideline when Devonte Smith had his 23 touchdown catches. The second most receiving touchdowns for Alabama that year was six by John Mechi the last two years. Jeremiah last year had 12, Carnell Tate had nine touchdowns in 2024, Jeremiah had 15 and Becca A. Mecca Buka had 10. Again, this is a little bit like, what if he has all the touchdown receptions? And so yes, Julian saying, like, you probably need to have more. Mac Jones had 41 touchdown passes in 2020, 23 of them were the Devonte Smith. Right. Julian sand only threw 32 last year. So like that number has to go up.

[Bill Landis]

Right.

[Doug Lesmerises]

If Jeremiah is going to be above 20, Julian's got to be above 40. But I don't think it's going to happen. I don't really think it's attainable. But like the only. If we bring in this red zone idea does it not become attainable if we start talking about we had. He had seven touchdown catches inside the five and then he played football the rest of the year and had like an otherwise normal season and all. Everything that got jacked up is short yardage stuff.

[Bill Landis]

I don't know. Yeah, but which is why I think the clock rules and all that stuff has changed things. But I think this is why we keep coming back to. Okay, how does Ohio State want to approach offense this year? Last time we talked today, I didn't get a question, but I'm just very intrigued by what they felt like worked last year and do they feel like they went too far because they won a national title with that approach? Because if they just, they were like they weren't dead last but they were close to the bottom and just like plays per game and pace and all that stuff. If they're just the middle of the pack, plays per game type of team. And maybe some of that is veteran offensive coordinator, but some of that it may just be Ryan Day looking like, okay, we don't need to be going A thousand miles per hour. But we also don't need to be going five miles per hour. Then I think it becomes a little bit more attainable because yeah, sure, JJ has 23 touchdowns. Nine of them are explosive play touchdowns, another three or four. Or he took something short and made it an explosive touchdown. And then because they don't necessarily have the explosive back who can hit home runs. Maybe legend pays that, but I guess we'll see if they're getting stopped at the three yard line a bunch then it's just, well, we got three plays to throw it up there to jj. We'll take our chances that he'll catch at least one of those. And so now all of a sudden you add another seven or so and then all of a sudden it adds itself up to 23, 24. Sure. But if they're gonna play like they played last year and the reasoning for it be we can shave two whole games off the season and keep ourselves fresh for the playoff, then this was a fun podcast, but we'll be doing

[Stephen Means]

it on the video game.

[Doug Lesmerises]

Yeah, right. Yeah, no, yeah, you guys will be, yeah, you'll be playing EA Sports college football and like Stephen Means will be like, yeah, Jeremiah had 57 touchdown catches in my season. Orlando's be like he had 61 in my season. And Ohio State will be like he had 12 in ours. So yeah, we, we'll see how that goes. It is fun to talk about. I think everybody watching and listening to this understands, like you can get a little hyperbolic with Jeremiah Smith, but then actually I don't know that you can. Like this is the type of, type of skill, the type of potential that we're talking about with a guy like this. Andrew Gillis and Steven Means, thanks so much for taking time out of your day. All the good folks can find your, your writing [e-mail] backslash OSU and of course find you guys dropping Buckeye talk. Steven, how many Buckeye talks you guys drop it on, folks?

[Bill Landis]

Five a week. Five a week. Monday through Friday. Actually we are going to go Monday through Thursday once things calm down here. But while they're still. I mean there's a lot happening. We had, we were in the Woody. I feel like every day this week. So Monday through Friday we're coming with stuff. It's a good time to be listening to buckets.

[Stephen Means]

A good time to be listening to

[Bill Landis]

Bill and Doug show too, obviously. Yeah, this is a great time to be an Ohio State football fan. There's a lot going on in the Woody and A lot to get into.

[Doug Lesmerises]

So. Yeah. And then Andrew, we know you're covering a bunch of recruiting stuff as well as what's going on with the football team. I imagine, you know, just there's always recruiting information to be passing along to folks, is there?

[Andrew Gillis]

Not especially now. They had a bunch of kids in the, in the Woody this past weekend. You know, there's visits coming up. So, yeah, I mean, we're, we are, I think Stephen mentioned this, like, we are about to kind of pass the mantle to you once we get through spring practice because May, June and early parts of July are basically all recruiting. So business season here we come.

[Doug Lesmerises]

All right, very cool. Bill Andis, we're right. And we're talking over at the substack, Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com we are indeed still have the

[Stephen Means]

annual subscription deal going on. 18 off in annual annual subscription now through the end of spring football.

[Doug Lesmerises]

All right, so thanks to Andrew Gillis, thanks to Stephen Means, thanks to you guys for watching and listening and of course, thanks to the guy who made it all possible. There he is. He's Jeremiah Smith. He's a football player for the Ohio State Buckeyes and he's going to make a very interesting guy to follow this year in 2026. For now, appreciate everybody being here. I'm Doug Lee Maurice. That was around the shoe on the Bill and Doug Show. Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian? Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids, all eight of them, should something happen to us.

[Andrew Gillis]

Are you my dad now?

[Bill Landis]

No, sorry. I do basements. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail]

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