Ohio State Around the Shoe: Buckeyes' ideal national title opponent; Matt Patricia-Jim Knowles swap

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Around the Shoe

Episode Date: October 6, 2025
Featuring: Doug Lesmerises (Host, “B”), Bill Landis (“E”), Adam King of 10TV (“C”), Bo Bishop of 97.1 the Fan (“D”)
Main Themes: Matt Patricia–Jim Knowles swap, Buckeyes' ideal national title opponent, Penn State’s struggles, Columbus as a sports media market

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Episode Overview

Doug, Bill, and their guests Adam King and Bo Bishop deliver an energetic, in-depth episode focusing on three main topics:

1. The unexpected swap of defensive coordinators between Ohio State and Penn State.
2. Dream national championship game opponents for Ohio State.
3. The fallout at Penn State and who might lead the Nittany Lions next. The discussion is light-hearted but insightful, sprinkled with inside media perspectives and memorable analogies.

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1. Ohio State’s Coordinator Swap: Jim Knowles Out, Matt Patricia In

[03:28 – 10:39]

Key Insights:

• The panel reacts to Ohio State swapping Jim Knowles for Matt Patricia, now Penn State’s DC. Each gives a single word to describe the move.
• Adam King: “White elephant… win.” Describes Patricia as a “white elephant gift” that proves better than expected. Praises Patricia’s ability to implement complexity without overwhelming college players.
  • Quote: “He is an analytical genius... somehow he has taken an amazing concept of 10 different schemes in a game and helped these college kids understand it and play the fast.” (C, 04:27)
• Doug & Bill joke about comparing the swap to opening a box of socks but getting a PlayStation 5 instead.
• Bo Bishop: “Unintentional upgrade.” Describes OSU as being dumped (“Wait, you’re gonna break up with me?”), then realizing the new match is even better.
  • Quote: “All of a sudden, you get free and... obvious. I think the thing that's so cool... What he's doing week to week, we just have never seen anything like it, guys. Eight new starters... It's so comprehensive the way they're playing defensively. It's amazing to watch.” (D, 06:01)
• Bill Landis: “Timely.” Emphasizes that coaches must evolve and Patricia came at the right moment for a fresh approach.
  • Quote: “New coordinator with fresh ideas and most importantly, an ability to teach those ideas combined with new personnel and an unfamiliarity across college football with what this group was going to be about. This really works.” (E, 08:27)
• Doug: “Sabanesque.” Credits Day’s ability to hire great coordinators, comparing him to Nick Saban’s “NFL re-tread” coordinator cycle at Alabama.
  • Quote: “You are not defined by coordinators... Maybe, just maybe, a hire like this, if it's working this well, shows that it's all credit to Matt Patricia, but it's also kind of an off the radar hire. There's some credit to the boss.” (B, 09:17)

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2. Dream National Championship Opponent

[10:39 – 18:41]

Key Insights:

• Unanimous panel pick: Miami is the most interesting matchup.
• Bo Bishop: Calls Miami “not close” as the best story: 2002 title rematch, recruiting rivalries (esp. for Jeremiah Smith), high-powered lines, and a “pro quarterback in Beck.”
  • Quote: “I just think like the idea that 20 plus years later those two teams are back at it... they're battling for recruits. It was Miami or Ohio State for Jeremiah Smith... their two lines of scrimmage are legitimate. They got the quarterback in Beck.” (D, 11:06)
• Bill Landis: Agrees, notes the juicy recruiting connections, with both programs fighting for top Florida talent year after year.
• Adam King: “Everyone else in the top six has fallen off… The only team [consistent] is Miami.” Makes the case that most intriguing hypothetical matchups have already happened this year, boosting the Miami scenario.
  • Quote: "The only one we can think of is Ohio State, Miami, because everybody else got a lot of questions." (C, 15:34)
• Doug: Laments never facing an SEC team for a title when OSU wins it all; expresses a secret wish for a Georgia-Ohio State matchup because “if Ohio State’s going to make history, I kind of wanted to do it the national title game against an SEC team.” (B, 17:17)
• Panel jokes about “Old South” vs. “New South” and Doug’s nostalgia for SEC blueblood opponents.

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3. Did Ohio State Break Penn State?

[18:47 – 26:13]

Key Insights:

• Bill Landis: Assigns 90% of Penn State’s football “bottoming out” to Ohio State, more than Michigan or anyone else.
  • Quote: “Ohio State is responsible for, I think, an inferiority complex that holds back Penn State’s program and probably creates unrealistic expectations for its fan base.” (E, 20:14)
  • Adds: Hiring Knowles was an Ohio State-driven move (“not to say OSU foisted a good DC on Franklin, but perhaps... misguided motivations”).
• Doug Lesmerises: Notes Franklin’s extended struggles vs. elite teams but says OSU is the stumbling block.
• Adam King: Echoes “90%”. Uses backup/starting quarterback analogy—“Penn State’s the backup QB who never gets the chance to start because of Ohio State.”
  • Quote: “They had no ability to take that next step because they got stuck behind Ohio State.” (C, 23:21)
• Bo Bishop: Goes lower (60%). Argues Penn State’s fear of falling off a cliff, like Nebraska or Michigan did at times, means they accept the status quo, referencing $56 million buyout for Franklin and risk aversion among Penn State’s power brokers.
  • Quote: “I almost think they don’t even aspire to punch evenly with Ohio State... They’re very comfortable being underneath it.” (D, 24:32)
• Interesting note: Bo’s insider info about the “Joe Bots”—PSU donors who withheld money after Paterno, but are now re-engaged after recent program success (25:59).

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4. Who Should Coach Penn State if They Move On?

[28:19 – 36:45]

Key Insights:

• Doug: Floats Kalen DeBoer (Alabama) or Joe Moorhead as creative, offense-focused options.
• Adam King: Suggests Lane Kiffin (Ole Miss) for his energy, offense, and ability to make OSU fans uncomfortable. Emphasizes need to go outside PSU’s orbit (“The only way this works out for Penn State is if they... re-engage the whole program”).
  • Quote: “You give Lane Kiffin Penn State... I think he could be dangerous at Ohio State.” (C, 31:00)
• Bo Bishop: Backs Adam: “I think it doesn’t matter where you’re from... just go hire somebody smart, energetic, and somebody with charisma.”
• Bill Landis: Lightheartedly says, “Jay Paterno,” then seriously suggests Curt Cignetti (Indiana, ex-James Madison), a proven winner and QB developer from Pennsylvania. Acknowledges Matt Rhule (Nebraska) but leans away from the “obvious alum” hire.
  • Quote: "He's got charisma. He's a quarterback guy. Give me Kurt Signetti. He's from PA... He's won everywhere he's been." (E, 33:36)
• Adam King: Adds Eli Drinkwitz (Missouri) as a sleeper. Consensus that PSU needs offensive ingenuity and new energy.

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5. Columbus as a Sports Media Market

[38:03 – 45:19]

Key Insights:

• Adam King: Columbus is unique—feels like a small town, but with big city sports passion. Tells a story of holding an OSU football as a kid: “If you drop this, Ohio State will lose the game.” (Stressful for a child, and a perfect anecdote for the stakes and emotion of the city.)
  • Quote: “It is a small town feel in a big metropolitan area where everybody is... at the heart of it all, it is all founded by one block O.” (C, 39:10)
• Bo Bishop: Ranks Columbus in the top five US sports markets. Notes it’s one of few cities where big events (Indy 500, NHL Finals, etc.) always rate in the top ten—despite not having an NFL/NBA/MLB team. The Buckeyes come first; it’s other teams' job to stay relevant after OSU’s season.
  • Quote: “It's the job of the Blue Jackets, Buckeye basketball... be relevant when the Buckeyes are done.” (D, 41:16)
• Bill Landis: Calls Columbus “underrated, misunderstood.” Praises "real sports town" energy—Jackets and Crew fans fill stadiums regardless of team performance. Even from Philly, now sees Columbus as equally passionate.
  • Quote: “It is very much a real sports town and incredibly passionate one.” (E, 44:12)
• Doug: Explains Columbus, like Austin, has no major pro team competition, creating a unique college football power in a sizable city.
  • Quote: “You have a sizable area... but you’re clearly number one when you’re Ohio State football. And that is such a unique opportunity.” (B, 44:59)
• Bo: Reiterates his earlier point that only Columbus and Austin allow you to “make a living and thrive talking college football, primarily.” (D, 45:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Like you open a box and it's like, I don't know, socks. And then you get your new gift. It's like a PS5.” (E, 05:41)
• “I just think like the idea that 20 plus years later those two teams are back at it...” (D, 11:08)
• “Ohio State is responsible for... an inferiority complex that holds back Penn State's program.” (E, 20:14)
• “You have to have somebody with some charisma to sell it. And Franklin is devoid of that entirely." (D, 33:04)
• “It is a small town feel in a big metropolitan area... all founded by one block O.” (C, 39:13)
• “It's the job of the Blue Jackets, Buckeye basketball... be relevant when the Buckeyes are done.” (D, 41:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:28] – OSU swaps Knowles for Patricia: Immediate reactions
• [10:39] – Dream national title opponent
• [18:47] – How much has Ohio State “broken” Penn State?
• [28:19] – Who should coach Penn State if not Franklin?
• [38:03] – Columbus as a sports media market

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Tone & Style

Conversational, self-deprecating, playful jabs between old friends and respected colleagues. Frequent use of analogies and pop culture. Speakers are direct and candid, offering both analysis and fan-friendly perspective.

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This episode delivers a comprehensive look at Ohio State’s present and future, the shifting power dynamics of the Big Ten, and a celebration of Columbus’ vibrant sports landscape.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome back to around the Shoe on the Bill and Doug Show. Two very special guests as always. First of all, it's me, Doug Lee Marie, it's Bill Landis. We're not special, but these guys are. Adam King of Ten TV joining us from a golf course. Bo Bishop of 97.1 the Fan and many other endeavors joining us from his home studio. We're and we're so excited to have him on around the Shoe. Adam King, first of all, how long have you been around covering the Ohio State Buckeyes?

[C]

I think we're going on more than four years now. I did grow up in Columbus and so I have watched every Ohio State game since I was about yay big. So it, it's nothing new for me. That's why I wanted to come back home and, and four years ago and this was always the dream to cover the Buckeyes and be able to share their stories and, and talk about what is the premier program in college football.

[B]

And Adam King, how long have you been following Doug Lay, Maurice and Bill Landis and what we do?

[C]

Okay. I didn't know if you were going to ask me. I'm glad I get to say this. You two are the best in the business. I used to work in Missouri and I would drive around in Missouri listening to Doug and Bill, their podcast constantly. They had a tech subscription I would text my questions in. So yeah, it's. You guys were my source to Ohio State football when I was all the way out in Missouri.

[B]

Yeah. How do I get a job in Columbus?

[C]

Doug, can I use you as a reference? You don't know who I am.

[B]

And then the magic happened. Bo Bishop, you've been around longer than four years. How long have you been talking and thinking about the Buckeyes?

[D]

Well, first of all, I guess I know why you get let him go first because it was all the big Suck up. That's what that was about.

[E]

That's right.

[B]

Plenty of room for you to still suck up if you want.

[D]

Yeah. I got here in 07. I identified. I was in Tallahassee, first Reader's Digest version. I knew I wanted to be in college football, so I identified some markets where they were big enough where you could have a nice life, but also. Or college football was primary. So it was Austin, Columbus. Those are the top two. Happened to a. Marry an Ohio girl, and the rest is history.

[B]

Magic. And then. Oh, and Bo, you and I used to do podcasts in the press box at halftime of Ohio State games. Before podcast even existed. Back then, they just called it talking about.

[D]

I used to. I used to look around, like, I'd look around at halftime and try to see. And then oftentimes you'd be looking over and we're like, yeah, we need to. Let's have a little chat here about this. And so that. Yeah, that was a regular occurrence. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And now we're breaking it down here. Around the shoe. Five topics about Ohio State football. About five minutes each. We'll get you guys out of here. We appreciate you joining us. Question number one. We'll start with Adam King. What is one word that you would use to describe Ohio State? Swapping Jim Knowles to Penn State for Matt Patricia. Ohio State. Knowles out. Patricia in. That is blank.

[C]

It almost feels. I have to use one word. I want to use white elephant, but I'll use win. It feels like a white elephant where you. Where you've got, like, the great gift and you think like, oh, I don't want to give it up. No, it's so perfect. And then somebody else takes it, and then you open the next package and you're like, this is the greatest thing ever. This is so much better than that gift that I just handed away to you. This is exactly what I wanted. Enjoy that weird vase that you're never going to use. And I. I've got to say, it's really tough. I didn't think we'd see it this early on, but I am all in on the Matt Patricia train. And I think everybody that. That was skeptical has had their questions answered. Now, do I think that Jim Knowles in Penn State will. Will eventually work out? Yes. I think he's a good defensive coordinator. I think he did his part at Ohio State, and he's a major reason they won a national title. But I think the more that you dive into that Jim Knowles era, those first two years, there was a lot of discombobulation trying to implement those new systems and it's over complicated for players. I thought we might see that with Matt. Patricia. He is an analytical genius, and somehow he has taken an amazing concept of 10 different schemes in a game and helped these college kids understand it and play the fast. And we're only five games in.

[B]

I'm trying to think, Bill, of like, you have a gift. It's like, what did you open? It's like, I opened $3 million. Someone took that and it's like, well, I guess what am I going to get now? It's like, I got a ripped sweatshirt signed by Bill Belichick. And it's like, actually, Bill, that's better. It's better. It's fine. I didn't. That's not what we thought.

[E]

The. This, the Bill Belichick autograph, at least at the time, could have appreciated in value. Now, probably not, given what's happen, but. Yeah, it's like, I like. Like you open a box and it's like, I don't know, socks. And then you get your new gift. It's like a PS5. That's. That's kind of what it's like for.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You just called Jim Knowles socks. Bo Bishop. What. What's your word? What's your description for this? Swap?

[D]

Yeah, I think it's an unintentional upgrade, right? Like, you're kind of like, wait a second, you're gonna break up with me? You're breaking up with me? You want more money from over here? No, no, no, no. That's not happening. Then we're kind of like, wait a sec, nobody leaves us. You just want a national title. Who wants to leave? Then all of a sudden, you get free and you see what's on the open market and you're like, oh, I can date you. And I can date you. And then you find this guy that you land on and obvious. I think the thing that's so cool. I remember talking to James about this. I'm like, you like him? He goes, love him. And I went, oh, okay, this is. Now I get what's going on here. And then what he's doing week to week, we just have never seen anything like it, guys. Eight new starters. Eight new starters. Like, what do you do? Like you. You guys watch the all 22. You go, where, where's there a play? There was a play in the game over the weekend where Minnesota tried sneaking out the tight end opposite side. And it gets. It's one of those plays in college football that you fall for all the time all of the action went this way, they snuck the tight end the other way. The guy who read the. The test, read the book before the test is Caleb Downs. And I feel like sometimes Reese Downs and styles are like in the opposing huddles. It's like they know the plays. It's. It's so comprehensive the way they're playing defensively. It's amazing to watch.

[B]

Yeah, I do think unintentional upgrade is a good one. Landis, what do you got?

[E]

As someone who believed in the map? Patricia hire from the jump. I would say nailed it. I don't know, like, timely prop time. I did not know. I famously did not. Timely. Timely is gonna be the word that I would use, and it's with the benefit of hindsight, but. But Adam kind of touched on it there. Like Jim Knowles's system, I do think I. I think can tend to be a little complicated. And I would worry about that, I guess, some with young players, and I worried about it with Matt Patricia, but it just turns out those worries were unfounded. So, like to have him come in with new, fresh ideas that one, keep opponents off balance.

[B]

Right.

[E]

Because you have to evolve every year. And there was an opportunity, I think, for. For opponents to get a little bit of a beat on what Jim Knowles likes to do. Combine that with younger players and. And maybe the defense isn't. Isn't up to quite the same standard as it was last year. Now, like, statistically it's. It's better, at least from a scoring standpoint. And I think teams really have, like, no idea what to expect from Ohio State's defense. Defense, because it's all new. So I, I just think that sort of matched up well with how the roster was turning over. Did not believe that at the start, but I think now with five games of evidence, does seem like new coordinator with fresh ideas and most importantly, an ability to teach those ideas combined with new personnel and an unfamiliarity across college football with what this group was going to be about. This really works. Works well together right now.

[B]

So I'm. I'm going to use the word sabanesque, which is potentially more about the person making the hire than the hire itself. Because I'm. Let's say that this defense plays so well that the NFL comes knocking on Matt Patricia's door after this season, and he has three different NFL defensive coordinator opportunities, and let's say he leaves for that. I don't think that anybody anymore is going to be like, oh, what are they going to do? I think maybe we would be like, ah, Ryan Dale, hire somebody good. And that is like what Nick Saban did at Alabama, that he would just sort of run recycled NFL guys through there, sort of help them jump start their career. You get a good year or two out of them. But you are not defined by coordinators where Jim Knowles is like a defining coordinator. Adam. Right. Like, Jim Knowles had a style. He came from Oklahoma State. He came when Ohio State needed somebody and he came to save him. And maybe, just maybe, a hire like this, if it's working this well, shows that it's all credit to Matt Patricia, but it's also kind of an off the radar hire. There's some credit to the boss. And maybe you just think, Adam, like, he's going to be good at hiring the next time he needs to hire.

[C]

Well, I think it's a major step for Ohio State and I think we've seen it over the last few years with Ryan Day. I, I don't think anybody can dispute that there in the last kind of few seasons of the Urban Meyer era, some of those hires, people were confused about. And Ryan Day has now made it a point that he is going to find the best guy to fill that role. Doesn't matter who he is, doesn't matter where he comes from, doesn't matter if he's been sitting out of the sport for a year. He's going to go out and assess things and whoever he thinks can come in and be the guy for this team, that's who's going to get that role. Whether it be going to Oregon and getting Carlos Laughlin and saying, I think you're the best. I don't really have any connection to you, but I want you here coaching my guys or Matt Patricia plucking him, knowing that he is an analytical mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Confident hire, right?

[B]

Confident, yeah. You got to believe in yourself. Yep, yep, yep. Also, Ryan Day likes the Patriots. What are you going to do? He's probably going to hire some Patriots.

[D]

Guy next, like I grew up watching.

[B]

All right, number two, question number two. Bo Bishop, we'll start with you. Not that we're jumping ahead. Come on, we're doing a lot of shows in a week. You got to find topics. The most interesting possible matchup for Ohio State in the national title game would be against which team? Bo?

[D]

It's Miami and it's not close. I mean, we, we. I think we're all gonna probably. I think that's a very logical one. There's so much symmetry between the national title all those years ago in 02, remember that Miami team was trying to repe. This Buckeye team's trying to repeat. I covered that Miami team up against Florida state. They beat FSU, had like a 56 game home winning streak and that Miami team rolled in there and beat the brakes off them. Well, Ohio State went to Washington last week, 20 some game home winning streak, beat them. Not comparing the two, but you see some similarities there. And I just think like the idea that 20 plus years later those two teams are back at it and remember, they're battling for recruits. It was Miami or Ohio State for Jeremiah Smith. You saw the receiver that they got now, the freshman. They missed on Jeremiah. That kid's a stud. Their two lines of scrimmage are legitimate. They get the quarterback and back. Like to me that storyline is just ripe for the taking. I hope we get it and I hope that they're on opposite sides of the bracket so you can. I believe in them. I actually think Miami's legit. Very, very good. Their two lines of scrimmage are very good. And they got a pro quarterback in Beck. So to me it's Miami and there's just so many layers to that.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Question two, lead off with Bo. I was just like in my head last night, I was like, bo's gonna cook on Miami, man. I can't. I knew that was coming. So what are you agreeing, Landis?

[E]

Yeah, definitely. I think one of our shows that we did in the immediate aftermath of Ohio State beating Texas, which I guess would have been after Miami beat Notre Dame, I said like, let's go Ohio State, Miami in South Florida for the national title. It's just too, it's too juicy for all the reasons that both said. A couple guys at Ohio State either had or wanted playing pretty well for Miami right now, including Mark Fletcher, Justin Scott and Marquis Late Foot like you have that. The Jeremiah, Jeremiah Smith thing looms. There's other guys from like Carnell Tate's not from South Florida, but he played down there and like I think in some respects is kind of considered a South Florida guy. Brandon Ennis is obviously from down there. As long as Brian Hartline's around. Oh, I say it's not going to stop recruiting receivers from down there. You have Jeremiah's brother coming in a couple of years. Right. Like they are two programs that are going to butt heads a lot off the field. So we might as well see them do it on the field for the national championship.

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[B]

Okay, all right, I'm going to skip me for a second. Adam, I want to go to you because I want to save my answer. Adam King, who do you think is the best, most interesting, fun matchup?

[C]

I think we're out of answers. I mean, college football is bizarre right now in that the everybody else in the top six of the preseason has fallen off. Miami is the only team that has somewhat lived up to the expectation. So it has to be Miami. And I do think it would be awesome to have that atmosphere of going down there and facing off with the hurricanes. But I think more so in debating who is Ohio State going to play? The answer is Texas. And we already got to see that game. I think it's crazy that college football changed so much this year where we've seen Miami and Notre Dame. Like you mentioned, Bill, we're five weeks through. We've seen LSU go up against Clemson. Like all these games that are our hypothetical games for the end of the year. We've already had them. So now we're running out of hypotheticals. The only one we can think of is Ohio State, Miami, because everybody else got a lot of questions.

[B]

Yeah, we've seen Penn State, Oregon. Yeah. Which is good. Like good for this sport. We're seeing a lot of games. So I don't know if you guys know this, but there was a. You said we used to do a show. There's a little bit like north south themed.

[E]

I don't know.

[B]

I also have a trivia question. Do you guys know how many times Ohio State has played an SEC team in its final game in the year when it won the national championship? Never.

[E]

Never.

[B]

It's never happened before.

[C]

I was going 95. I was gonna lock it in as high as.

[B]

Yeah, 103 times. Beat Notre Dame for the national title, Beat Oregon for the national title, beat Miami in O2.70. They actually lose to Stanford in the Rose bowl, but still claim a national title. 68. They beat USC in the Rose bowl, won the national title. 61. They didn't go to a bowl, but still somehow claim a national title. Oregon in the Rose Bowl, USC in the Rose Bowl. So here's the thing. Like, man, I know, like, Miami. I get it. That's still south, but Miami's not, you know, Miami, no offense, isn't Tuscaloosa, right? I mean, I don't know. Like, there's no south beach in Tuscaloosa.

[C]

That I know been the.

[E]

Both. They are not the same.

[B]

There's still a part of me that wants that. Is that okay to still want that? Do I have to give up? Is the SEC so mid? Then it's like, well, it can't be an SEC team for real. Sec. We have Ohio State trying to repeat for the first time ever, and we can't get an SEC team in there. So I think Bama is still a fraud. Give me Georgia, man. Kirby and Ryan Day, the defining coaches of this new era. Now, here's the thing. I. Adam shaking his head. Georgia stinks. A little bit of a monkey wrench here, right? Georgia, I don't. I don't want lsu. I don't want Ole Miss. Texas A and M wouldn't get it done for me. They already beat Texas, but they're. Bo, There's a part of me that wants, like, I want to see this. We had Bama. We get it. Like, that basically was the national title game, but it wasn't the actual national title game. And then the last time they got to do it, they went and played Bama. The national title game, didn't win. So, Bo, like, if Ohio State's gonna make history, I kind of wanted to do it. The national title game against an SEC team. Can I hope for that or no?

[D]

Did you guys watch Eastbound and Down?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So the whole time you're talking, I'm just thinking Doug Lee Maurice has become Ashley Schaefer BMW. Because you're. You're Old South. You want Old South. You don't want Miami.

[B]

You don't want Oklahoma.

[D]

You don't want Texas. You want Old south represented. So you. You want Bamahur, Georgia in that game. I think that's great. I'd love to see it. I just don't think either of those teams are any good. So I don't think we're going to get it, but that would be fine, too.

[C]

My favorite part is that you teed it up with Tuscaloosa's. Tuscaloosa versus Miami. And I'm like, okay, I can get on board. Maybe. Maybe Simpson gets a little better this year. I can see Alabama. And then you pulled a Pat McAfee and you said, I want Georgia. Okay, well, now. Now I can't get on board with that.

[E]

How about Missouri? Doug, you want the Cotton bowl rematch?

[D]

No, he's Old South. He doesn't want the New South. He wants Old South.

[C]

Good point, Bo. Doug's shaking his head. He doesn't like that we have insulted his SEC tape.

[D]

I think he's got connected.

[B]

Anybody anymore?

[E]

No, he's gone deaf.

[C]

We can hear you.

[B]

So just endless SEC opportunities here. Glad everybody's fired up. Question number three. Bill Landis, we are going to start with you. This. This is like. So I saw some people suggesting, like, did Oregon break Penn State? We saw what UCLA did to him. Like, this is obviously a conversation that is still pretty central for Ohio State fans. What percent responsible is Ohio State for what is going wrong at Penn State right now? I think, like, this could be a direct conversation. This could be sort of an ethereal conversation about, like, vibes and pressure and that kind of thing. Ohio State. And we talk a lot about, like, Ohio State breaking things, right? Did they break Clemson? Did they break Arch Manning? You know, like, have they broken Penn State? What percent is Ohio State responsible for this bottoming out at Penn State?

[E]

90%. Like, a lot. I think technically, mathematically, if you just want to take James Franklin's record against top 10 teams, he's 4 and 21. Ohio State is responsible for 43% of those losses. But then you extrapolate the mental toll that it has taken on that program and that fan base. And I'm comfortable with, with a 90 that Ohio State is responsible for, I think like an inferiority complex that holds back Penn State's program and probably creates unrealistic expectations for its fan base. This good to great to elite conversation that has followed James Franklin for a decade is all about Ohio State and is a standard that he is held to, whether it's actually fair or not. I Think again. With hindsight, you can not question Jim Knowles defensive acumen, but question whether or not he was the absolute right guy at this time for Penn State when it was trying to chase a national championship with how long it usually takes for his scheme to to take hold at a given program. And the fact that he was Ohio at Ohio State and James Franklin could steal him was a major driving factor in taking him right. So not to say that Ohio State foisted a good, a good defensive coordinator upon James Franklin, but perhaps some misguided motivations there because of the Ohio State factor in it. So there are a lot of things there. Like Michigan has beaten them too, right? Ohio State and Michigan combined are 14 of those 21 losses. But it is primarily an Ohio State conversation because that's the team that he beat too, right? Like he showed an ability to beat it. And then everyone was like, well, we did it once, we can do it again. And it's like, well no, you kind of got a fluky win one time against Ohio State and otherwise can't get over that particular hill. Particular hill. So it's practically all Ohio State for me. If you want to say like Oregon drove the final stake in or whatever, that's fine. But give some credit where it's due to the team that, that landed most of the punches against James Franklin's reputation.

[B]

And I, I thought this was like a bold question by me. I was going to go 60%. I have a whole theory about how Ohio State broke Penn State. Landis is like, I got this. I was started at 110%. One in ten. And it's interesting, right? Like Kirby smarts one in seven against Alabama. Ryan Day is one in four against Michigan. And like those are specific conversations that people have about those two head coaches because James Franklin hasn't beaten really any of the best teams that the Penn State conversation extends. It expands beyond one team to not beating anybody on top. But actually it kind of is an Ohio State conversation. So I was at 60%. Adam, that Ohio State is to blame here. What percent would you say?

[C]

I think I'm probably with landis at a 90%. And I already use one analogy with the white elephant and I don't like to use two analogies in the same 30 minutes, but I'll say it kind of reminds me of having a starting quarterback versus the backup quarterback. And you can have a very, very good backup quarterback who's on a trajectory to be an amazing player, an NFL hall of Famer, but if he never gets that start if he never gets to pass, that starting quarterback as a sophomore in high school could derail his whole career. And I think for Penn State, that's where they are. They're the backup quarterback. They had so many opportunities where they could have won a national title. The only problem, they always had Ohio State standing in their way. They could never get past Ohio State. It was one team in their own conference that if. If they were in any other conference. There's a world where Ohio State and Penn State have met multiple times in a national championship game. And instead, it just stunted their growth. They. They had no ability to take that next step because they got stuck behind Ohio State.

[B]

Stunted their growth is a great phrase, Bo. What percent for you?

[D]

Yeah, I'm more like where you are. I actually think the two things that really have hindered Penn State over the Franklin Run haven't been Ohio State as much. Although that's. That's the Goliath. I actually think it's Michigan and Nebraska. And what I mean by that is, I think people over there are so fearful that if they hire the wrong guy, they'll fall off a cliff. And you got to remember that there was a cliff they fell off of at the end of Paterno where it was like, oh, my gosh, all of a sudden, we're four and eight. Like, what is going on? We're Penn State. We are all of that stuff. Well, it fell off a cliff. Then they had the Sandusky stuff and all of that. And I think that they're looking at this. I mean, just think about their mentality and scheduling. They don't want to play Ohio State and Michigan anymore. They hide it under we're unrivaled. But the reality is they're trying to find another path. Like, they're aware of who he is, and they're very aware of who they are, and they're okay with it. And I think the reason that they're mostly okay with it is because they don't want to be Michigan and Nebraska. They don't want to be a museum program. I don't know how good of a job that is. When I talk to people who coach in the sport, they say, look, it's not Ohio State. It's Michigan. It's not Ohio State or Michigan, but it's just below it. I do think it takes the right person to be there, and I think it's fear more than anything else. I. I almost think that they don't even aspire to punch evil evenly with Ohio State. I I think they're very comfortable being underneath it. And, and so I think it's more fear of what would happen if they moved off of him than being bold enough to move off of him to chase something bigger.

[B]

And, and Bo, I feel like, like over the years when you've heard James Franklin, he's come into Columbus and had some tough losses sometimes the way he's talked about it sometimes I think is maybe not the way that you would want your head coach to talk about a rival program that he really, I think a lot of times it's come across that he's maybe viewed Ohio State like more as a roadblock than a challenge sometimes. I don't know. It's, it's, it's an incredibly tough spot for them, Bo, is it not?

[D]

They have a 50 some million dollar buyout. So if they were going to try to fire him, they got to write a check for 50. I think it's 56 million if they try doing it this week. So you got to write a check for that. Then you got to hire the new guy. You got to pay him 75 million over seven years. So you have to have the money for that. You have to pay $30 million for the roster in retention and recruiting. They're renovating the stadium. Where's the money going to come from? Yeah, like the Carnegies aren't in Pittsburgh. Where's the money?

[E]

I.

[D]

Where's it coming from?

[E]

Keegan, Michael Key.

[B]

There you go.

[D]

You gotta have somebody write a big check.

[C]

He's the big donor.

[D]

You know what somebody, a buddy of mine's a Penn State alumnus and he, he told me something that why this could be the tipping point, which I'd never heard this before and you guys probably know because you were over there a lot. But he said that there are, there were still up until this year a lot of people over there who would not give to the program because of what happened with Paterno. And they have a name for them and they wouldn't, they wouldn't give but that this year they got so close last year in the semi final that they finally engaged all of their boosters and were all in this year. So maybe that'll be a catalyst to finally flip it. And I was unaware of that.

[E]

Yeah, they could call them Joe Bots.

[D]

That's it.

[B]

Oh, for real?

[D]

I never heard of that bill.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I did not know that.

[D]

That's it.

[C]

Hey Bo, if you want to donate some money, you can have your name. It can be Bo Bishop Field for a hundred million dollars.

[D]

You see what I'm doing at Montana State, baby? We're knocking down the door. National titles out west. Come on. How many programs can I front load?

[F]

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[B]

Yeah, Keegan Michael Keel, just like start a cameo thing as a fundraiser for James Franklin's buyout. He'll just misplace, pronounce your name in a funny way and they'll funnel it. It's the, it's the Jamiece Frank Line buyout fund brought to you by Keegan Michael Key. So let's keep rolling on this. And I know it's like an Ohio State show, but Penn State really matters. I think like in this context, in this conference, what happens at Penn State affects Ohio State. So we'll start with me and my next one was like, who should be coaching the Penn State Nittany Lions next year? And I'll just say I don't know because for instance, right? So Arkansas, Arkansas fired its coach and Arkansas is like, oh, what should we do? And there happens to be a guy who's the head coach at SMU right now in Rhett Lashley, who's like the greatest high school quarterback in the history of Arkansas high school football and played at Arkansas and is an offensive minded guy. And it's like, I don't know, I wonder what Arkansas is going to do. And it's like, man, sometimes this is easy to figure out. Who you should hire. Should Penn State hire Christian Hackenberg? Should they hire Trace McSorley? Should Trace McSorley like, I don't. You try to find. Like, where's the easy thing? Because I will say this. I think it talk. This is an Ohio State conversation. Bill, you and I have talked about this a lot. It's like Ryan Day. The Ryan Day style of offense is never going to leave Ohio State as long as Ryan Day is there. And it feels like. Like Penn State doesn't have that. They're more beholden to the coordinator, even though James Franklin's an offensive guy. So I'm thinking offense, and I wondered, should they just bring Joe Morehead back and make him the head coach? Although to take the coach who's 10 and 32 at Akron. Yeah. Is a tough sell. I get that. It's like, no, listen, listen, Wristen. Just get him out of Akron. But here's my actual name, because I can't escape the sec. I still think Bama's going to catch on fire this year. Get Kalyn DeBoer to State College, because guess what? State colleges. It's like mini South Dakota. It's South Dakota right in the middle of Pennsylvania, I think. I think Kaylin DeBoer at Bama is not it. I think Kalyn DeBoer at Penn State is gangbusters. Adam King, who should coach Penn State next year?

[D]

Doug chose violence.

[C]

I like your. Your concept. I'm going to the sec, too, and I'm taking that Bo Bishop money and I'm throwing it at one man.

[B]

Are you bringing Kirby? Oh, I thought you're bringing Kirby Smart State College.

[C]

I am bringing Lane Tiffany to State College. And I'll tell you why. I went through all these names, and I'm like, who would make Ohio State fans uncomfortable in the fact that he might be able to do it at Penn State? And of all the names I listed, you give Lane Kiff in Penn State, and I know it gets him out of that shadow of the sec. And he's in a weird spot in the SEC where, like, he's not Georgia, he's not Alabama. He's chasing Saban always. And he's like, saban's not even there anymore, and he's still in his shadow. I think if you bring him to Penn State, you give him a revitalization. And I. I think that Lane Kiffin is a very good head coach. He's proven that at Ole Miss. I think he could be dangerous at Ohio State. And I also think, above all else, almost getting Back to the Matt Patricia kind of thing. The only way this works out for Penn State is if they don't go the Christian Hackenberg route. If they don't go the Joe Moorhead route, they have to completely just. Just go outside of Penn State. They have to re. Engage the whole program. They have to re. Engage all those boosters and say we're starting over with a guy that's sole focus is to win a national title.

[D]

I mean, I cannot believe I'm gonna say I agree with Adam King.

[C]

Let's go. That's a first. Write it down.

[D]

I can't believe it. I don't. I don't want to do that.

[C]

October 6th. What a moment.

[D]

I'll tell you that. I. I love Kiffin. I don't want Kif leave Ole Miss. I think it's perfect. I think it's quirky. I think it's perfect. I think he can be a little bit of a thorn in the big boys. Ole Miss is like the perfect job in that they don't. If you win 10 games, they'll build you a statue. Like, they don't. They don't aspire to national titles. They don't aspire to any of that. So I hope he stays there. But the reason I'm really with you, King, is what you said at the end. Because I do think it doesn't matter where you're from. It matters how good are you and if you like. Dan Lanning had no connection to Oregon. That's working splendidly. Ryan Day had no connection to Ohio. That's working splendidly. Yeah. Every once in a while you find a Kirby one where there's a guy who takes a path, who's an alumnus. I don't think you need to try to force something. I just go hire somebody smart, energetic, and somebody with. You need somebody with a charisma. Because when I watch Penn State and there's a lot. I love it, by the way. I love everything about Penn State. I love that institution. I love the. The campus. I think it's the best environment in the Big Ten by a decent margin, especially at night. So I think there's a lot you can sell there, but you have to have somebody with some charisma to sell it. And Franklin is devoid of that entirely. So to me, find somebody young, find somebody energetic, and I don't care what the connection is to the rest of. Kiffin would be a great one. I. I just hope he stays at Ole Miss for as long as he can.

[B]

I. I just would like to note Bill Landis, you may say still James Franklin. That is an acceptable answer.

[E]

I was going to say Jay Paterno.

[B]

Holy cow.

[D]

You chose violence Metal choosing violence too.

[E]

He is comfortable on the board of trustees I think. No my this guy's got, he's got charisma. He's a quarterback guy. Give me Kurt signetti. He's from PA. Oh my God. He's coach coaching the PSAC Pennsylvania Division 2. Two different head coaching jobs there. What's our he's won Everywhere he's been 63 I think. Yeah, I don't care. That's all right.

[C]

He's good for 63.

[E]

Yeah he does. I think he's, I think he's got the goods. I, I, I was curious as to whether they would fall off because he wasn't coaching merely like just his James Madison team in Bloomington. Now there's still some James Madison guys there but you know the fact that he one made Indiana attractive enough destination to get like a transfer quarterback like Fernando Mendoza and also got the nil in order to pay for a quarterb Fernando Mendoza I think he could go in and, and probably elevate what is already a pretty good roster building operation at Penn State with far more resources than he has at his disposal at Indiana. And I think position Penn State to be better if not significantly better at I think the position that's held Penn State back the most which is the quarterback spot. Like I think Penn State's always going to get good speed on defense and and should be getting better skill guys than it is currently getting and I don't think that would change really no matter who the head coach was. But you need to have somebody in there who can make it attractive for top flight quarterbacks too. And I think Kurtzig that he's program would do that and I think the fan base would love him. The other obvious one is like Matt Rule because he's a joker former Joe Paterno player. But I don't, I don't know that that's like the exact right fit necessarily given what Matt Rule is.

[B]

But I think we're almost saying we're almost like Matt Rules the obvious one but I think like we're agreeing here like not, not, not that don't go the obvious like alum route go something else. Indiana if Ohio State beats Penn State on November 1, November 8 Indiana at Penn State. If Signetti goes to Happy Valley and hands Penn State its fourth loss they might not let him leave.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you hire the coach that beat you the five Minutes after the game.

[E]

Sure.

[C]

A different kind of tarmac moment. Hey, don't get on that plane. Hold on. Yeah, yeah, I will say just real quick, I didn't, didn't want to interrupt, but I do think if I was making a prediction right now, one guy that I think might be the next head coach of Penn State that no one is talking about is Eli Drinkowicz at Missouri.

[D]

I thought of him.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

He is in the perfect position to take that next step up. He's got the charisma you talked about.

[B]

Bo.

[C]

As you guys were all talking, I was listening to everything you were saying. And the one guy that kept door alarms kept going off is Eli Drinkwoods.

[B]

And he keeps recruiting Penn State, Pennsylvania quarterbacks. Bill. Yeah, he's, he's beating Penn State head to head in recruiting, so he'd probably bring a quarterback with him too. I do think what we're talking they need like an offensive ejection. They need a head coach with some offensive ingenuity and charisma. And I think that's, I think we're all in agreement on that.

[F]

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[B]

All right, let's go back to the media side of things for our final question here with our two titans of the Columbus media market. You guys have both sort of like you come at it from a different perspective than Bill and I do. Haven't come from different places and thinking about it from like a TV perspective and a radio perspective. So, Adam, like I, this isn't like a sharp, pointed question, but what is Columbus, Ohio like as a media market? What's it like to, to be in a place where Ohio State football operates, but you also have the Blue Jackets, you also have the crew. Like, what's it like working here? What's it like serving this audience?

[C]

It's amazing. I mean, I, I go back to with the Columbus Blue Jackets, not to bring up a bad memory, but they were out of the playoff race two seasons ago. The games didn't matter at that point. And they sold out the arena for three, the final three games or whatever it was at that point. And I thought that is Columbus a pitt of honest. It's a town that wants more night games for Ohio Stadium. Not because they want it to be loud and crazy and because of the opposing team, because they love the energy that it brings to the city on a Saturday when there's a night game at the shoe. It, it is a small town feel in a big metropolitan area where everybody is, is rooting for the black and gold, everybody's rooting for the cbj. And then at the heart of it all, it is all founded by one blocko. That is the reason, I mean, it's the reason I'm in this industry is because when I was just a wee kid, somebody handed me an Ohio State football and they said, if you drop this, Ohio State will lose the game. And that's so much pressure to put on a child. Okay. Do you know how much stress I felt in that moment? I'll tell you what, I didn't drop the football. I did not drop the football. And they won. I'm not saying I'm the reason they won, but could, could be. It's just that kind of atmosphere. Doug's terrified. Doug's gonna send me a text.

[B]

And that day was the day Ohio State played Florida in the national championship game.

[D]

17.

[B]

And now we know what happened.

[C]

And now you know what happened. No, it's just, it is, it's an amazing market to cover. It's so different than any other college football market, which bo you talk about. My dream wasn't just to cover the Buckeys. It was to cover college football. And I think to be able. There's no better place place to just be at the core of college football than in Columbus, Ohio, with great people, great sports, and everything you really need for a sports market.

[D]

Yeah, I, I, I think it's one of the top five sports markets in the country, I think it is for college football. What like working in New York would be for baseball, or working in Toronto would be for hockey, or there are certain cities that are just, they're just tied at the hip to a sport. And I think here it's college football, but it's actually beyond that too. One of the things that really blew my mind when I, when I first got to channel 10 in 2007 is I would look and see how other sports rated in town. And here's the thing about Columbus that blew your mind. If you go 10 Indy 500. I don't know what it's like now, but when I first got here, this is what it was like top 10 Indy 500, Columbus would be in the top 10, top 10 NBA Finals, Columbus would be in the top ten, top 10 NHL Stanley Cup, Columbus in the top 10, top 10 Super Bowl Columbus. You're like, well, wait a second, they don't have any of those teams. No, they don't. But they love their sports and they watch it and consume it in a wild way. It's a bit of a unique town in my estimation. I've always thought of it this way. Everybody cares about the Buckeyes non stop. And it's the, in my view, I always say this. It's the job of the Blue Jackets, Buckeye basketball, all of those things be relevant when the Buckeyes are done. So when that season gets put to bed in January, if you're Jake Diebler, if you're Dean Evison with the Blue Jackets, make sure you're in the mix in January because if you are, that Buckeye bandwagon will jump on. They'll glom onto it quickly. But that's the job of those teams, in my view, is to make sure you're relevant in January when the Buckeyes stop. Because. And it's crazy when you talk to like NHL guys, they're like, when they first get here and Adam, I know you knew those too. They're like this. College football. Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Or like I get like a European soccer guy and he's like, wait, what, what do a hundred thousand people go to? Amateurs.

[C]

Yeah. Well, you look at when Wesson, the, the new crew star, Wesson, he got here and he's, he's like, they packed that shoe to play.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And he said to me, he's like, football, which we call or you call soccer. And I'm like, yeah, this is, that's it every Saturday, man. They want to watch year olds Control the fate of their Saturday.

[B]

Bill. People know you and I didn't grow up around here. What did you think of this market when you got to Columbus?

[E]

I wasn't sure what to expect when I first got here. Underrated, I think, like, and maybe like a little misunderstood. I think nationally to both point of just how passionate it is. And I would say like beyond Ohio State. The Ohio State thing is almost taken for granted because it's.

[C]

One of the.

[E]

Most successful college football programs ever. And, and, and the passion reflects that. But like you go to, I've gone to a couple Jackets games like when the Flyers are in town and both teams might stink in the building's full. Like I, I can't believe it. And I've only ever been to one crew game. But it was awesome and it was packed and it was loud and it was just like one of the coolest live sporting event experiences I've ever had. The people in the city and the surrounding area like, really, really care about sports, just, just generally. And, and that was eye opening to me because I just didn't think anyone would have time for anything beyond Ohio State football. And they very, they very much do in a way that, that makes this city one. That's a pretty great place to live as a sports fan, even if it doesn't have like all four major professional sports. Right. I think there's an assumption that's made around the country that because you don't have all four, like, you can't be like a real sports town or whatever. Like. And honestly, coming from Philadelphia, I probably thought that a little bit too before I got here. But I, but I, but I don't, I don't think that now it is very much a real sports town and incredibly passionate one.

[B]

And Bo, you kind of mentioned this off the top, just in terms of metropolitan size. Columbus is 32nd in the nation. The only one larger that doesn't have a baseball, mlb, NFL or NBA team is Austin that you mentioned. And I do think a lot of other places, when you're in a metropolitan area or a city as big as Columbus, you know, University of Washington in Seattle or USC and UCLA and la, or Minute Minnesota in Minneapolis. You're in a big city, but then you're fighting, you're fighting for relevance against all the pro teams. Here you have like the pretty sizable area, the sizable city, the sizable population, but you're clearly number one when you're Ohio State football. And that is such a unique opportunity. It's a unique reality for the people who live here and, and root for this team and care about this team so much. But for any of us in this business, though, you kind of said at the beginning, it's like, if you're looking to work and to cover a team like this, it's. It probably is here in Texas and there's nothing, there's nothing else quite like it.

[D]

No, no, I, I remember I circled when I was in Tallahassee before I met my wife. I circled Columbus, Austin were 1, 2, and then it was like Knoxville, Baton Rouge. Like, those type of places were the only other ones where you could make like, a living and thrive. Talking college football, primarily.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Adam King and Bo Bishop. Thanks to you guys so much for being here. Adam King, where can the people find you? Usually, if there's a thing happening, if there's like an Ohio State football player who maybe like, went grocery shopping that day and is trying to figure out should he buy Fritos or Doritos, there's a chance that Adam King is going to be in the aisle with a microphone interviewing that player. Where can the folks find you?

[C]

Well, at Kroger, interviewing Jeremiah Smith. Hey, I like to spot, like, the guys outside of football. We talk so much about football. They do all these great things. They're good people. I mean, Caleb Downs is out at, at the food bank the day after the Washington game. That's pretty awesome. You could find me on Twitter and King 10 TV. The coaches show Game Time with Ryan Day every 9am on Saturday mornings. 10 TV. When you turn on 10 TV anytime, find me on there. Plus 97. One the fan. I'm on there a lot with the guys and a lot of great things. Just, just anywhere you want to find Buckeye football that involves 10 TV or the fan, you will find you.

[B]

You will find Adam King. Boat Bishop, man about town. You talk Buckeyes. You also talk Browns. Where can the folks find you if.

[D]

They don't know by now? At my age, Doug, I'm out of plugs. Like, I, you know, I mean, I'm around. I'm easy to find.

[C]

He's also in the aisle at Kroger trying to decide between freedom.

[D]

Usually in the liquor store. That's where I am, back in there.

[B]

Well, one of the things, Bill, that you and I like to do here is like, bring in other people because we want to see steal their audiences that the, you know, it's like, hey, we have two great guests on. Maybe they're here for Adam and Bo. There was somebody the other week in the comments is like, who are these Bill and Doug guys? And it's like, wow. Okay. Like, would not. Like they were here for somebody else and they're discovering us. Sometimes you're still finding people who don't know who you are. So, Adam King and Bo Bishop, thanks to you guys for making time out of your day to be here. Adam, hit them straight out there on the links, brother.

[C]

Hey, I appreciate you guys having me.

[B]

Bo, love. Love your perspective. Thanks for being here, man.

[D]

Anytime. Happy to do it.

[B]

All right. On behalf of Adam King and Bo Bishop. On behalf of Bill landis, I'm Doug LeMarice, and that was the Bill and Doug.