Ohio State Around the Shoe: Buckeyes' perfect red-zone call; Clemson & Notre Dame lessons for OSU

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Ohio State Around the Shoe: Buckeyes' Perfect Red-Zone Call; Clemson & Notre Dame Lessons for OSU"

Podcast: The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Host: Blue Wire
Episode Date: September 15, 2025
Guests: Bill Bender (Sporting News), Andrew Gillis (cleveland.com), with hosts Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis

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Main Theme

This episode of The Bill and Doug Show dives into the state of Ohio State football amid the 2025 season, focusing on lessons drawn from current struggles at Clemson and Notre Dame, red-zone decision-making at OSU, shifting perceptions about the Big Ten race, the viability of MAC teams in the new playoff landscape, and the evolving role of alma mater allegiances in sports media. The panel—veteran college football writers with local and national ties—deploys wit, candor, and deep analysis to engage Buckeye fans and look at broader trends across college football.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Lessons for Ohio State from Clemson and Notre Dame

Segment start: 05:14

• Bill Bender urges OSU fans to be grateful for their sustained excellence, highlighting Clemson’s and Notre Dame’s recent setbacks as comparative cautionary tales:

  “Could you imagine at Columbus right now if Ohio State lost to a caliber program of like NC State and SMU? The Tigers are 2-6 against top 10 teams since that Sugar Bowl where Ohio State just nuked them with Justin Fields… There’s a difference between Dabo having a national championship team … and just another ACC contender.”
  — Bill Bender (05:38)

• Andrew Gillis stresses the “fragility” of elite programs, citing Clemson's slow adaptation to the transfer portal and Notre Dame's puzzling staff decisions:

  "After Covid, they were kind of famously slow to adapt to the transfer portal … you pair that with the fact that you don’t have a super weapon at quarterback … it can go downhill quick."
  — Andrew Gillis (07:07)

• Bill Landis zeroes in on quarterback management:

  "Perhaps an appreciation of how Ryan Day has managed the quarterback position. He doesn’t let things fester ... Kyle McCord had an okay season in 2023 and Ryan Day didn’t promise him anything after that. So Kyle McCord left and they got a better quarterback with Will Howard and they won a national championship."
  — Bill Landis (11:11)

• Discussion includes whether independence is helping or hurting Notre Dame’s playoff hopes, and whether OSU fans should remain content or vigilant.

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2. Re-Evaluating The Big Ten Championship Race

Segment start: 15:14

• Preseason vs. Current Predictions:
  All panelists originally picked Ohio State vs. Penn State; now, most lean toward Ohio State vs. Oregon, citing Oregon’s early dominance.

  “Oregon to me might just be a wagon. Maybe we’re just in the same place we were last year, where we looked at it and went: Okay, Ohio State and Oregon are the best two teams in the country …”
  — Andrew Gillis (16:16)

• Penn State Still in the Mix:
  Bender holds out for Penn State upsetting Oregon, emphasizing the home-field whiteout advantage and defensive depth.

  “I think Penn State wins that game. I just ... like their defense. It is tough to go in there and win. There’s some really good Ohio State teams that escape that one in, what, ‘18…”
  — Bill Bender (20:36)

• Big Ten’s Strength at QB and Beyond:
  Gillis highlights the presence of potentially the top three QBs in the nation: “They might be the three best teams in the country and they might just have three eventual first round picks at quarterback.” (22:41)

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3. Buckeyes’ Perfect Red-Zone Play Call Scenario

Segment start: 23:24

• Hypothetical Situation:
  Fourth and goal from the 2-yard line—game on the line.

• Bill Landis:
  Wants the ball in Jeremiah Smith’s hands:

  “Something designed for Jeremiah because he’s the best player in college football ... but not just a fade. Something with pre-snap movement and targeting Smith.” (24:16)

• Doug Lesmerises:
  Suggests a QB-run, presidential package with multiple RPO wrinkles:

  “I think I’m putting Keen Holtz in and running some kind of read play ... maybe RPO it a tiny bit. If there’s a tight end who leaks out ... you can throw a little pop pass.” (25:04)

• Bill Bender:
  Likes the RPO with Bo Jackson and multiple options at the line:

  “Bo Jackson’s the running back I’m putting in there.” (27:05)

• Andrew Gillis:
  Agrees: best player, best chance:

  “It has to go to Jeremiah Smith … I’d much rather go down swinging with our best player, rather than your O-line gets beat and CJ Donaldson gets stuffed.” (29:33)

• On offensive line faith:
  Landis voices overall faith in short-yardage execution, but expresses concern about “condensing everything and helping the defense too much.” (29:40)

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4. Will a MAC Team Make the College Football Playoff?

Segment start: 31:42

• Outlook Bleak:
  All agree it's unlikely, possibly impossible under current or future conditions.

  “I don’t think it’ll happen in the next 10 years … There’s so much parity in the league, it makes it difficult."
  — Bill Bender (33:09)

• Transfer Portal & Parity:
  Gillis:

  “The stability of that conference is not great right now … I don’t even know if the conference is going to be viable in five years.” (34:23)

• Landis:
  Tells a cautionary tale of mid-major volatility:

  “It’s just like far too volatile of a conference … I just don’t think the league lends itself to [playoff runs].” (39:28)

• Panel Reflection:
  The consensus mourns the erosion of the MAC’s national relevance, both due to external (transfer portal, realignment) and internal (lack of institutional investment) pressures.

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5. Alma Mater Fandom in Modern Sports Media

Segment start: 41:26

• Bill Bender:
  Advocates for mentioning alumni roots “in small doses … show it, but don’t make it who you are.” (43:23)

• Andrew Gillis:
  Notes the impossibility of feigning neutrality about formative college experiences, but stresses professionalism and relatability:

  “It is irrational and short sighted to expect people who attended a university … to just say, ‘those feelings never happened.’” (43:40)

• Bill Landis:
  Shares his Penn State-to-OSU beat writer journey and supports fan perspective—when handled responsibly:

  “College football is so unique … I’m okay with fan sentiment being baked into the coverage … as long as it’s not done in the way [Portnoy] does it.” (46:37)

• Doug Lesmerises:
  Warns against fan-bias masquerading as analysis:

  “…Why would you have someone who’s completely biased talk about a game or analyze a game? … It’s annoying and it’s unprofessional.” (48:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Humor & Banter:

  • “I thought you were gonna be in preschool [in 2007]. I feel much better about that.”
    — Doug Lesmerises, (03:23)
  • Ongoing jokes about flag football, fourth-grade quarterbacks, and drafting Pickerington 8th graders for fantasy leagues break up the intensity of the analysis.

• On Penn State’s Big Ten Aspirations:

  • “Wake me up when they beat Ohio State. They haven’t done that since 2016 ...”
    — Bill Bender, (20:43)

• On the MAC’s Future:

  • “There are people in league circles who would not be surprised if an FCS drop is not in [Akron or Kent State’s] future.”
    — Andrew Gillis, (34:23)

• On Fans Covering Their Alma Mater:

  • “You can show it, but don’t make it who you are.” — Bill Bender, (43:23)

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Actionable Takeaways & Final Thoughts

• Buckeye fans:
  Appreciate your current program stability and leadership. The quick fall-offs at Clemson and Notre Dame show how even elite brands can stumble.

• Big Ten outlook:
  Oregon and Ohio State, loaded at QB, may be the conference’s new steady powers. Don’t count Penn State out, but the “peak” theory may be overblown.

• Red zone play calling:
  Get the ball in your best player’s hands—whether via creative motion, RPO, or a simple (but well-designed) quick pass to a superstar receiver.

• MAC reality:
  Increased parity, transfer portal losses, and lack of deep investment mean G5 playoff dreams, especially in the MAC, grow dimmer by the year.

• Sports media:
  Revealing alumni ties can humanize reporting, but it should never cloud professional objectivity or cross over into performative fandom.

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For more from these analysts:

• Find Bill Bender at Sporting News
• Andrew Gillis at cleveland.com
• Follow Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis each Monday for “Around the Shoe”

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Transcript

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[Doug Lemurice]

Welcome back to around the Shoe. We're going around the Shoe. Doug Lay, Maurice and Bill Landis from the Bill and Doug show, joined by another two special guests this week, Bill Bender of the Sporting News, Andrew Gillis of cleveland.com 5 Ohio State College football topics. We'll hit them quick. We'll have a good time. Thanks to you guys for being here. Bill Bender, thanks for being on the show. We're going around the Shoe, but you don't only go around the shoe. You go around everywhere. How long have you been covering college football and other sports for the Sporting News?

[Bill Bender]

I've been with sporting news since 2007, so I think we're, you know, 18 years in and you know, I started in fantasy football and moved over to College Football around 2013, right before the playoff era, a year before that. So been at it however many years that is and hoping to keep doing.

[Doug Lemurice]

It now where where I don't want to give anything away. I don't want people to come to your house.

[Bill Bender]

I'm a Lancaster, Ohio guy, but I live in Pickerington. I that's not a secret. I you know, I think every other year I'm writing about one of these Pickerington guys that that goes the NFL with. Jack Sawyer got his first sack yesterday. That was exciting. So you know, this is a pipeline here and there are definitely more along the way. I Promise.

[Doug Lemurice]

So. So you cover the world, but if you wanted to go around the stadium, the shoe would be the closest one that you could go around. So you were a very worthy and reasonable guest here on Round the Shoe. Bill Bender, thank you for being here.

[Bill Bender]

Thank you.

[Andrew Gillis]

You're excited.

[Doug Lemurice]

You're pretty excited, right? You're excited to be here.

[Bill Bender]

I am.

[Doug Lemurice]

Andrew Gillis, how long have you been covering Ohio State for cleveland.com?

[Andrew Gillis]

Just over two years. This is the beginning of my third season. So I was here for 23, 24, and now we're here for 25. So I am still relatively new, especially compared to you three in terms of the, you know, kind of Ohio State college football sphere.

[Bill Landis]

I think I was gonna ask if Gillis was alive in 2007 when better started covering college football.

[Andrew Gillis]

2007, the fall of 07. I was in sixth grade.

[Bill Landis]

Oh.

[Doug Lemurice]

Oh, that's. I thought it was gonna be preschool. I feel much better about that.

[Andrew Gillis]

96. I'm 29 years old. Yeah, we're fine.

[Doug Lemurice]

Oh.

[Bill Bender]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug Lemurice]

You're like a real adult. That's good. Andrew. Thank you for being.

[Andrew Gillis]

Health insurance and everything.

[Bill Landis]

Doug, can I share a story about Bender? Before we, before we get into our topics, I just want to solidify his Pickerington bona fides. I'm in a dynasty league with Bill, and every year he picks a Pickerington high school kid in our, in our, in our developmental player draft. So his roster is filled with Pickerington fellas. He's a real one when it comes to supporting Pickerington football.

[Bill Bender]

Oh, they, they have one coming. Future five star freshman named Edmund McAllister. Third. The third had four touchdowns on four carries for Pickerington Central on Friday night. I'm telling you, he's the I. That one. I'm confident in that. The offers are coming. He's a really good running back and he's only a freshman. And as I told my son Grant, he. Grant got to touch his jersey once in a game. Like, wow. Got a fistful of the jersey. He didn't get the tackle, though, so that's something we'll remember down the line.

[Doug Lemurice]

So do you have him in your. In your dynasty league yet? Can you draft a ninth grader in your league?

[Bill Bender]

Can I get like in trouble for saying yes? I think, but I'm pretty sure you do. Yeah, well, we do have high school kids on these teams. This is not my fault. This is totally Bill' fault.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that's true.

[Doug Lemurice]

Do you run this league, Landis?

[Bill Landis]

No, I don't. No.

[Doug Lemurice]

You. Our guys are In a league where you draft high school players for an.

[Bill Landis]

Nft, we draft college players. But you run out of college guys sometimes and you know, you might want to pick a kid who's like the next five star to have him on your developmental roster. And then Bill Bender goes and picks 8th graders from Pickerington.

[Doug Lemurice]

Wow. Okay, we might have to start a show about this league. That's pretty good. All right, let's get to our topics. We're going to focus on Ohio State, but there's a couple other things happening in college football that we can talk about at Ohio State. ViewPoint, question number one. Bill Bender, we'll start with you. Clemson's one and two. Notre Dame is zero and two. Ohio State should look at the Tigers and the Fighting Irish and think what you can give two separate answers about those two programs or one all encompassing.

[Bill Bender]

Well, I mean, be thankful about your program. I mean, could you imagine at Columbus right now if Columb or Ohio State lost to like a caliber program of like NC State and SMU, you know, like the, the Tigers are 2 and 6 against top 10 teams. Since that was a Sugar bowl, right, Where Ohio State just nuked them with Justin Fields. Was that a Sugar Bowl? They, they haven't been the same sense. In my opinion. They haven't been. There's a difference between Dabo having a national championship team, which I thought they might have had in the preseason, and just another ACC contender slash playoff team. So that's that. And then, yeah, be thankful you're not owing two. You know, I think this is correct. I'll probably get fact checked on it. But High State hasn't been owing two since 1894. Okay. Like they got not that old.

[Doug Lemurice]

I can't check that. I can't check. That sounds right though.

[Bill Bender]

That sounds right by Booktol, who is now Akron. And then they got beat by Wittenberg for the first of two times in the same season. Could you imagine Columbus if Wittenberg beat Ohio State twice? That's in the same year in any sport. So I, I just say be thankful that that's not you because Clemson and Notre Dame experienced things that Ohio State fans in their lifetime and three lifetimes before that have never experienced.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lemurice]

That is, it is a reminder, a good reminder to Ohio State fans to be grateful about your station in college football. Andrew Gillis, what do you think?

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, yeah, I think the word fragility is, is what comes to mind. Right. You think of like Clemson and, and what they were from, you know, 15 through 20. I mean they were Saban's foil, right? Like, they were the team that everybody compared to Alabama. And you know, they go, you know, I think it was six straight years of the playoffs in the four team world. They win two national championships. They play in two others that they lost. Like, after Covid, they were kind of famously slow to, you know, adapt to the transfer portal and adapt to things that everybody else did, and it kind of put them behind. And, and when you pair that with the fact that you don't have a super weapon at quarterback like desean or Trevor Lawrence anymore, that really hurts you, right? And, and you can overcome, you know, a limited quarterback with a great roster or vice versa. And they just, they haven't done that. And you know, you saw now, I mean, now they're, I think, like Bill said, a solid team. They're an ACC team that we look at and you're like, all right, they're not bad. They still win nine, 10 games a year, but they're not at that level that they were. And that's how quick that that can change if you're not at the cutting edge of that. And like, Notre Dame is kind of the similar thing. Notre Dame played a national championship game eight months ago, and now all of a sudden we're talking about Notre Dame going, is Marcus Freeman having his Carrie Combs moment with Chris Ash? And if they hired Chris Ash and that goes down the, like, that goes down the tubes, I mean, they're burning what could have been a national championship contending season because of one bad hire. And it felt like everything was going well for Notre Dame. So I think, yeah, it is how quickly these things can change and how quickly these things can kind of deteriorate. So, yeah, if I'm Ohio State, I'm looking at that saying, you know, we need to be kind of at the, at the forefront of nil transportal development, whatever it is. And you've really got to nail your coaching hires because, like, like you're witnessing at Notre Dame, if, if Al Golden's still there, maybe they're 2.

[Doug Lemurice]

0.

[Andrew Gillis]

And that's an interesting conversation. And, and this thing can maybe not collapse, but it can go downhill quick.

[Doug Lemurice]

Man, that is a great Ash point, is it not, Landis?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, he took the words out of my mouth. I was going to say that Marcus Freeman is in his Kerry Combs era. I just think he, I just think he made a bad hire and, and they're going to pay for it this off season and then they'll, they'll change coordinators. And I think Notre Dame will be fine. Like I guess I would say Ohio State fans relative to Notre Dame. I wouldn't take this as a sign that Notre Dame is, is suddenly on a downswing. Just this could just be a year that gets away from Notre Dame a little bit. And by that I mean they might be 10 and 2 or 9 and 3, but perhaps not make the College Football Playoff. Because Marcus Freeman as a young head coach, similar to what Ryan Day experience as a young head coach, has to learn on the job at a pretty high profile place how to hire assistants. And I don't think he did a great job with this defensive coordinator hire as it pertains to Clemson. I think maybe the biggest thing I would take away from the Ohio State perspective is perhaps an appreciation of how Ryan Day has managed the quarterback position. And that's not to say that he is infallible with his quarterback evaluations, but he doesn't like let things fester right. Like Clemson, I think got in its own head or up its own butt a little bit about its quarterback development acumen with Trevor Lawrence and desean Watson and then I think let DJU hang around probably a year too long and then when they pivoted to Kate Clubnik and he's been fine, but I think they probably could have had better options there. He stuck around too long too and not gotten any better. And, and Ryan Day, I guess the best example of that would be Kyle McCord. Right? Kyle McCord had an okay season in 2023 and Ryan Day didn't promise him anything after that. So Kyle McCord left and they got a better quarterback with Will Howard and they won a national championship. And even the guys that Ryan Day has had in house, like Devin Brown, great guy, good to have in your program, they knew he was never going to be starting caliber here and never really put him in a position to do that. And I think like Lincoln Keenholz perhaps could be in a similar position. Like they don't just follow whatever the recruiting class tells you should be the case with your quarterback position. They make sure they have the best possible version of an Ohio State quarterback that they can get year in and year out. And I don't know that Clemson has done that really since Trevor Lawrence left. And I think they're paying for it.

[Bill Bender]

A little bit now.

[Doug Lemurice]

Is Landis planting the seed for everyone of what if we were in? I mean, I guess he would have had to get the red shirt extra year, but like year three of the Kyle McCord Experience at Ohio State because that's part of What I was going to say with Clemson, I did a lot going into this season of look at all these blue bloods who have first year starting quarterbacks. And I thought for Penn State and Clemson and Illinois, maybe to a lesser extent, to have a third year starting quarterback was a big edge. But is it, is it. Do you actually want, do you want the path of your quarterback to be start as a sophomore, start as a junior and then not go to the NFL and stay for year three as a senior On Ryan Day has talked over the years of man, I just, I love it when I get a quarterback back for a second year. Bill, are you saying you don't want him for a third year? Two and out.

[Bill Landis]

Nope. You're either good enough to go be a starter, you're not going to NFL starter, you're not good enough to be Ohio State starter. I'd like and otherwise you don't hang around.

[Doug Lemurice]

Okay. I think I may have changed my mind about quarterback experience. Now going forward in college football, the Notre Dame point bender last year, what Notre Dame did, I was like, man, being independent is pretty sweet. I'm not so sure Ohio State shouldn't be independent. You can do. But now you're owing to because you built your schedule with two decent teams at the front and there's no conference championship to go win that. If they were in a conference, one of these games would have been a non conference loss. They'd be Owen 1 in the conference. Right. Say that Texas A&M's been on conference. If they're actually in the ACC, Notre Dame would be 0 and 1 in the ACC and we'd be like, well they can still win the ACC and then they'll be in the playoff instead. We're talking about is Notre Dame already out of the playoff race? Is this a moment, Bill Bender, where it's sort of like, man, maybe being independent's not so great.

[Bill Landis]

Correct.

[Bill Bender]

And that's the hard conversation they're going to have with themselves at the end of the year. And I was trying to gauge the knee jerk reaction. Saturday night was okay, they're done. Right. You're not going to have a game on your schedule that's pretty other than they really need USC to start winning and USC's off to a good start, but we'll see. You know, that's, that's the best way to look at us. USC and all those SEC contenders are going to grind each other out and some teams are going to lose two and three games. But as a ten and two Notre Dame team. If you thought Indiana got dissected for 11 and one last year, Notre Dame will get dissected more because who is their big win and no conference championship. And you know who rejoiced Saturday night is the fact that I think now it just opens the door up that there will probably be four Big Ten teams and four SEC teams in the College Football Playoff and Notre Dame is the one that takes one of those away. If you look how that that field's composed.

[Doug Lemurice]

Yeah, okay, maybe independent. Good. Sometimes not so good. Sometimes.

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[Doug Lemurice]

Question number two. We'll start with Andrew Gillis. What was your predicted Big Ten championship game before the season and what is it now? Has it changed? Andrew?

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, it's changed. Before the year I was all in on Penn State and James Franklin and I was like, this is it. They've got the team, they've got the talent. And I've, I had always kind of had this idea in mind of, you know, you look at all James Franklin's top five top 10, whatever losses and you put Ohio State on that list. So you, you know, say, okay, how many of these were, you know, Ryan Day's fault, Urban Meyer's fault? And if you eliminate that, it looks way better. And I wondered if that conversation that everybody had about James Franklin was not an in game management. He screws it up in the big moments. He has A huge error. It's coaching malpractice or if just they're losing the games that they should lose. And I think that there is fault in that. But I don't know if it was necessarily, you know, a problem of he's not coaching the team to what their talent is.

[Bill Landis]

Maybe he was.

[Andrew Gillis]

I thought this year was going to be different. I did have Ohio State versus Penn State in, in the Big Ten championship game. I have seen enough from Oregon this year to where while yes, they, you know, I think that game on September 27th is going to be very, very massive, obviously for, for what I'm saying. But I, I just. With what Lanning has done there and, and how Dante Moore looks and the talent that he has, I think we were worried about receiver Decorian. Moore looks like somebody who can be, you know, a really, really talented guy for them as the season goes along. So Oregon to me might just be a wagon. And, and I was talking with, you know, my co worker Stephen about this and we were basically saying, what if we're just in the same place we were last year, where we looked at it and went, okay, HOSA and Oregon are the best two teams in the country. They're number one, they're number two, and they're eventually going to play at some point and we're going to figure it out. So I was on Penn State. I was a believer in them. But Oregon has really kind of flashed to a level where I like, if you listen to Buckeye talk, I have always been a landing guy. I have always been a believer. I am kind of. I was never really out on landing this year. I thought Oregon was going to make the playoff, but they have dominated at a level to where I think Ohio State and Oregon might just be the best and second best teams in the country.

[Doug Lemurice]

Very possible. Landis, what do you think?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I would echo a lot of that. I, I was originally on Penn State, Ohio State and now I am on Ohio State and Oregon in the Big Ten championship. Although I will say this, I think it's possible people are getting a little too hot in selling their Penn State stock based off of three games against. Against nobody. I, I did happen to catch a glimpse of the F updated S P or excuse me, SP + rankings that Bill Connolly does at ESPN. Penn State's number one, Oregon's number two, Ohio State's number three. All three are in the top 10 on offense and, and defense. So like, I don't think Penn State is suddenly a bad football team for me. It's A little bit more about the form that Oregon has found itself in early on, because I was just in the preseason kind of penciling in a win for Penn State there when they put, when they play next week in Happy Valley, you know, rather confidently. And I don't. I'm just less confident in that now. Like, I think Oregon's playing better than Penn State. But also when you're a team like Penn State that has these expectations, then you open the season against the opponents that it's opened against. I can also understand not being 100 locked in and then maybe once Oregon gets to Penn State, they'll be plenty locked in and still win that game. So I, I'll, I'll, I'll roll with Ohio State versus Oregon right now in the Big Ten title game. But I'm, I'm not out on the idea of Penn State being a 4 real national title contender.

[Doug Lemurice]

I think the thing that happened, and I'm going to agree with you guys, I was on Ohio State, Penn State and I would now be on Ohio State. Oregon as a Big Ten championship. We know cleveland.com does a preseason poll. Kings of the North. We did a preseason poll. 54 voters and hours. There were only two people out of 54 who picked Ohio State, Oregon as the Big Ten championship game. 2. Like the whole world was on Ohio State, Penn State. And I think the possible slight reevaluation of how we view the Big Ten here is I think everybody was in on this being a peak for Penn State, but I don't know if everybody was in on. There's no peak for Ohio State and Oregon. There's just. They live on top of the mountain and they just set up a camp up there and they're never leaving. So if you thought it was like Oregon, well, I mean, you know, they change quarterbacks again. Are we sure how good Dante Moore is going to be? And they have to. They rebuilt the whole secondary and Ohio State lost all the talent, lost two coordinat. And what if this is just Oregon and Ohio State are always there until someone, someone tells us otherwise. Maybe until a head coach leaves and then it's about whose peak in the Big Ten can rise up to match that, but maybe not even exceed it. But they're. They're both at a default standing assume. Oregon and Ohio State are as good as anybody in the country. And we'll see what else happens. I didn't feel myself doing at this off season. I was like, I think I think it's time for Penn State to be the best team in this league. And maybe Oregon and Ohio State reminding us of, like, that's not how we should think. Bill Bender, what have you done?

[Bill Bender]

I'm gonna go the other way. I. I started with Penn State, Ohio State, and I'm gonna stay there. And not just for podcast purposes.

[Andrew Gillis]

I'll.

[Bill Bender]

I'll take this. You know, I started looking at these three last night. Like, how many games could they possibly lose? Like, you can fathom them even possibly losing. And Ohio State really only has two. If you want to get cute. Illinois, like, that's three, tops. And they're not going to lose all three of those. Obviously, Penn State plays, is the only one that plays Oregon. Ohio State, they play Indiana and Nebraska. Oregon has Penn State, Indiana, USC and Washington. And USC could get weird. I mean, USC can score. So I don't think any program has more in a game than they will have next week when Oregon comes in there. Because what do we do with Penn State? I kind of do this line in the office all the time. Wake me up when they beat Ohio State. They haven't done that since 2016, you know, and they really probably shouldn't have won that game. It was on a block field goal that Ohio State shouldn't have kicked. You know, when are they going to beat Michigan? You know, I know that's gone back and forth, but the last time Michigan went into their house, they didn't throw the ball in the second half. Now Oregon comes in with this opportunity to say, and Oregon doesn't care about any of that. They've beat Ohio State. They beat Michigan last year. Not too many teams beat Michigan and Ohio State the same season. I looked it up. There's like five quarterbacks that have done it in the last 20 years, and they can now they can go in and say, white out. What's that? You know, we'll come in and they're confident enough to do it. But I think Penn State wins that game. I just. I like their defense. I know they haven't played anybody. It is tough to go in there and win. There's some really good Ohio State teams that escape that one in, what, 18. Barely got out of there with one. And if Ben Victor doesn't make a hell of a catch, they don't get out of there. So we're gonna find out. I'll stick with the prediction. For fun, though.

[Andrew Gillis]

I like.

[Doug Lemurice]

No, but I thought we don't have to bail completely on Penn State. I think that's right, though. It's not four bales, right? It's a. It's some questions, Gillis, but, you know, we don't have to be. They're the three best teams in the country. Right. Sorry. That the Big Ten has the three best teams in the country, Andrew.

[Indeed Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Andrew Gillis]

I mean, like, I was thinking about this the other day. You could make a very real case that Ohio State, Oregon, Penn State, they are the three best teams in the country and they have the three best quarterbacks in the country to boot. Right. Like, and I don't think that, you know, they are necessarily the three best teams in the country solely because they have the three best quarterbacks in the country. Right. You know, I think that. I think that when you have the, you know, like when you look at Dante Moore's talent, when you look at Julian Sands talent, when you look at Drew Aller's talent, yeah, they might be at that level. So, I mean, they might be the three best teams in the country and they might just have three eventual first round picks at quarterback. That's. That's impressive.

[Doug Lemurice]

No argument. No argument. My head was cold. I just wanted to put this on. All right, let's get to. Let's get down in the dirt. Bill Landis, question number three is Ohio State has fourth and goal at the two yard line. Let's say it's a long two. We are out of tush push range. I want to make that clear. We're not just like, this is not just slam a guy into the line.

[Bill Landis]

No, you're talking to the wrong guy. Tush push range is anything within 10 yards of the last.

[Doug Lemurice]

It's like.

[Andrew Gillis]

Start on those. Bill, by the way.

[Doug Lemurice]

Oh, I saw that Gillis was mad about false starts. I saw that.

[Bill Landis]

Just call it.

[Andrew Gillis]

Just call the game as it should be called. That's all I ask. Call the game as it should be called.

[Doug Lemurice]

We've been waylaid by the tush push. That's on me for bringing it up. You're the Ohio State offense coordinator. You're Brian Hartline, you're Ryan Day. You're facing the defense. That's good. Against both the run and the pass. It's like kind of a do a die situation. Fourth and along two, what is your Ohio State play call?

[Bill Landis]

Something similar to what we saw on Jeremiah Smith's touchdown against Notre Dame in the national championship. So something designed for Jeremiah because he's the best player in college football. Like a do or die moment. You have the best player in college football. The plays go into the best player in college football. But it can't just be. We're gonna toss him a fade and hope he catches it and or we get pass interference. I like in the past some of the things we've seen from Ohio State. We even saw version of it last week against Ohio when Ohio State was struggling in the red zone. They had a play where they brought Brandon Innis in motion and then like reversed them back into the flat and he was wide open. They just didn't throw him the ball. So something with pre snap movement that involves Jeremiah Smith getting targeted is what my play call would be.

[Doug Lemurice]

Okay, so you're throwing from the two and a half yard line.

[Bill Landis]

Throwing it.

[Doug Lemurice]

Okay. I think I'm going with a presidential package. I think I'm putting Keen Holtz in and running some kind of replay with a quarterback with either Keen Holtz or Bo Jackson ending up with the ball in his hands and believing in that offensive line and believing in, believing in the quarterback to make a right read there and then I don't know, maybe can we RPO it a tiny little bit? And there's also like a third wrinkle where there's a tight end who leaks out behind and if that's open, you can throw a little pop pass there. But I, as great as Jeremiah Smith is, if the season's on the line and you and you believe in your run game and your line, I think I'm running it and if I'm going to run it, I think I got to put Keen Holtz in the game. I'm curious to see what you guys say though because we can talk this out more. Bill Bender, what's your play call for Ohio State here?

[Bill Bender]

I mean the chip train them call against Notre Dame is still the one that sticks out to me. You know how they won that game And I was thinking the whole time they're going to throw and they just. That was on the one though, right? So I've got a, another yard line.

[Bill Landis]

Also against 10 defenders.

[Bill Bender]

Yes, that helped, that helped that they didn't have a gap defender in there. Of course, but and also when this question was posed, I was thinking about a fourth down call from my flag football coaching days that came this close. But if I have Ohio State talent on the field and not fourth graders in Pickerington, I'm going to go with a rpo. Bo Jackson's on the field. We're doing some sort of RPO Julian saying Jeremiah Smith's on one side. Like Bill said, you can't just, you can't just do fade. So you have to have something there, some sort of Option where. And then I've got Carnell on the back side because watched the packers for years. Aaron Rodgers was a master of just this, like, quick read. They did like, a quick slant off the backside. And I think Jordy Nelson and Randall Cobb caught. You can go, look, there's so many touchdowns that, that's the guy I have on the back side. So I have options at the line of scrimmage, too, based on the front. But, I mean, Bo Jackson's the running back I'm putting in there.

[Doug Lemurice]

I like fourth graders from Pickering just catching strays on this show. It's like, oh, man, if you guys execute a little bit better.

[Bill Bender]

It was my fault. I, I threw the pass short of the end zone. So it's not, it's not their fault.

[Doug Lemurice]

You're the quarterback when you coach flag football.

[Bill Bender]

I, I, no.

[Doug Lemurice]

Blame the kid.

[Bill Bender]

Always blame the kid. Don't blame yourself. No, I would. I called them. I called a play that players don't throw it in the end zone.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Doug Lemurice]

It's not the X's and O's, it's the, it's the, the Devins and the Nathaniels. Like, we know how it is in fourth grade. Andrew Gillis. What are you calling?

[Andrew Gillis]

Well, first off, I just want to shout out Bill for taking responsibility as a coach and not throwing it on, on his team. So that's, that's the sign of a good coach right there. That guy knows ball. The. I mean, I think Landis is right. The ball has to go to Jeremiah Smith. He's the best offensive player in college football. You know, I, I like the motion idea. 99 of the time. I'm against the fade. I am okay with a fade to Jeremiah Smith. I'm not okay with the fade, really, to anybody else. I think NFL teams, college teams, they think they can run the fade for some reason. And I don't know why the fade is okay if you have Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, maybe an A.J. brown type receiver. It is not okay if you're throwing a fade to, you know, devonte Smith. Like, don't, don't do that. Throw the fade to a guy who is bigger, faster, stronger, and can jump higher than everybody else. And I just, I like the idea of, you know, just sending him out to the wide side of the field. If you have single coverage, get him the ball. If he's double covered, you can, you know, quickly kind of make that read and say, all right, well, Julian's gonna give it. I, I would put C.J. donaldson back there, not Bo Jackson. Because I don't know if you need explosiveness in that situation. I just think you need to got to run through a brick wall and that might be C.J. better than Bo. So yeah, I, I just, the idea of, you know, you mentioned, you know, you mentioned seasons on the line. It's fourth and two. I would much rather if I was Ohio State, go down swinging with, hey, our best player got the ball, our best player had a chance to win the game, rather than you're looking at Jeremiah Smith and he's covered by a 510 corner and all of a sudden your offensive line got beat and CJ Donaldson ends your season because he got tackled short. I would much rather have Jeremiah Smith not be able to make a play because some other dude made a play rather than the other way around.

[Doug Lemurice]

Landis, what's your belief in the Ohio State offensive line in that situation if you did decide to run it?

[Bill Landis]

It's pretty strong, I think, I think, I think they've been okay thus far in, in short yardage and gotten to the push. They've Dave need it. But that's like, well, I don't know. Is throwing the Jeremiah Smith the most obvious thing or is running in short yardage most obvious thing? I'm not sure what the answer to that question is. But as I've said before, I think Ohio State at times puts itself in a bind by exacerbating all the difficulties that are already inherent. Playing in the red zone, by shortening, by like condensing everything. Right? So if you're trying to like line up and play big boy football and run it in from there, it's not a bad idea. I just think like you're, you're, you're helping the defense a little too much, I think, for my liking in that scenario. And I wouldn't want to do that when you have the kind of talent that Ohio State has, a receiver.

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[Doug Lemurice]

Question number four is a non Ohio State question because we do have two Ohio University grads here. Will a Mac team make the College Football Playoff in the next five years? So I believe that the last Mac team that under the current scenario where a G5 team gets in the 12 team playoff that would have made it right is western Michigan in 16. Is that right? Everybody look that up together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think possibly the idea of I picked Toledo to make the playoff this year and then they lost to Kentucky and that feels like maybe we've already punted on that. But is the answer not only no, but it will never happen again? Because I don't think any conference is as strip mined in the transfer portal like the Mac that they just you could make a Mac all star team of guys who each year go on and contribute in the Big Ten or in some other major conference. And I don't know what's going to stop that and I don't know how much that blows a hole in the idea of a Mac team being able to build up to this level to not only for that Mac champ to be the best group of five champs. So as much as I think it would be obviously great for the Mac and great for Northern football, I I wonder Bender, just like looking forward, is the Mac at the greatest disadvantage in this modern era? So is the answer not only no, but like I'm not sure whenever it'll happen or do you have that fear or am I overstating it?

[Bill Bender]

I don't think it'll happen in the next 10 years and I think it's just the pressure to be perfect. When you look at that Western Michigan season, it lined up that they beat Illinois and Northwestern. So you take like Toledo or Ohio or even bg if Eddie sticks around, those teams might theoretically theoretical have a chance. Like I look at Ohio University and had it's weird as fun as Saturday was and you know I get to hang around some guys that were on that 99 team at Ohio they had a reunion. If Ohio State's not on the schedule and they play somebody like an FCS school and go 11 and one with a Rutgers three point loss and a West Virginia victory, they probably have a better case. You know, you have to, one, you have to go perfect. You have to be perfect. And two, like, the best Mac team, at least in my lifetime, is that 97 Marshall team. And they lost two regular season games. They were the only one where you would be like, man, that would have been cool to watch Randy Mosson up in a college Football playoff game playing whoever, watching him run by some Georgia corner. But, you know, it's just the, the pressure. They have to be perfect. I don't think a one loss Mac team can get in the College Football Playoff.

[Bill Landis]

Okay.

[Bill Bender]

And there's so much parity in the league, it makes it difficult.

[Doug Lemurice]

Okay, Gillis, you have hope or.

[Andrew Gillis]

No, No, I, I, I think you're, I think better's right. It's, it's the parody that makes it difficult. You know, I remember people always ask me, you know, kind of in the summer, like leading into August, like, hey, you know, Gillis, how's Ohio going to be this year? And a lot of years I say, I have no idea because they lost X and they brought in X from the portal. And, you know, this year was a little different because they had Parker Navarro coming back. And, you know, you have a returning starting quarterback, but you have a new coach. And, you know, I just think the stability of that conference is not great right now. I mean, Tim Albin at Ohio wins a Mac championship, and then eight hours later he's on the plane to Charlotte. And, you know, whether you want to compare those jobs, that's, that's one thing, but, you know, Northern Illinois is leaving for the Mountain West. I just, I don't know if the investment is there for some of these schools in football. Like, Ohio cares. Toledo cares a lot. I was reading a column from, from Briggs up at the Toledo Blade, and he was saying that UMass, the team that is abysmal, spends more money on football than a lot of these other programs like Akron and Kent State. Don't take football seriously. Like, I'm. They, like, they don't. And, and he said that there are people in league circles who would not be surprised if, you know, an FCS drop is not in their future at some point. And you just, you start to wonder, like, all right, the TV contract's running up in a year or two. It's getting strip mined, as you said, Doug for, for people just taken from the transfer portal every year. I just, I don't know first off, if the conference is going to be viable in five years. You know, I don't, I don't know what the future of that league looks like. And I, I just, I don't know if the investment is there from top to bottom to where you can say, ah, yes, there's 10 teams that are trying to win. They're investing to win. They're throwing everything they can at being the G5 playoff team. I just don't know if that's the case when. And when you only have a few of those. Especially like you mentioned, I mean, you lose one game to an SEC team, you're in trouble. The way that Ohio could have made the playoff this year was a competitive game against Ohio State. And then you go 12, one and win the Mac. And yeah, there are some of these programs that are. It's just, it's not going to happen.

[Bill Landis]

So.

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, I, I don't, I don't think so. And, and I don't know if really it's going to happen ever.

[Doug Lemurice]

Wow. I was like, hey, let's throw in a Mac question is question number four. Why not? And Gillis is like, they don't exist in five years.

[Bill Bender]

Well, Doug, Doug and Bill haven't done the hypothetical Ohio argument also that Mac guys do of like, oh, would you take a four year run of like 50 and 4 or 51 and 3 or something and then maybe you get the death penalty. And I'm like, I, I might take my chances because I would do the 51 and 3 and dominate everybody for four years because as a Mac grad, you can have a daydream as a Mac graduate of like, you know, we want Ohio to be the Boise State of this conference. It's just so hard though, because everybody like Miami, pg, they're all the same. And then the basketball one is always, man, I wish we were Gonzaga. But Matt, coaches move so much because Ohio had a really good run with John Gross and then he left for Illinois. That's the hard part. Can't. That's why Frank Solich was like the gift. It's like the best group of five higher ever because he stayed and they were stable and you know, they win a national, a Mac championship after he leaves, which is kind of like a national championship to us.

[Andrew Gillis]

And there are some programs. Go ahead, Doug.

[Doug Lemurice]

No, no, no, you go Mac, man.

[Andrew Gillis]

I was gonna say, like there, there are some programs like, I'm sure Bender feels this way like, you know, would you rather play North Texas and Texas State and FCS school and, you know, Georgia Southern and, you know, try to win 10 games, or would you rather see Ohio go 8 and 4 and you play West Virginia, Rutgers in Ohio State? You know, there are a lot of people who will say, I'd rather see them play at noon in Happy Valley against Penn State. I don't care that they lose 45, three. I don't care that they lose whatever to Ohio State 37, 9, whatever that score was. I, I don't care that they lose these big games. And I think that matters, you know, like, there are people that would say, give me the big teams don't really care about the playoff. It's not going to happen anyway. Let me see them play a big program. We'll take the million and a half dollars the $2 million are going to give us and, and we'll run with that. And I think that's a completely fair argument to make if you are like a fan or a graduate or whatever of a Mac school.

[Doug Lemurice]

Landis, we got these Mac guys on tilt. Gillis killed the conference. And Bender advocating for, advocated for hiring Connor Stallions. So we just, like, we gotta be. We gotta tread lightly here.

[Bill Bender]

We do.

[Bill Landis]

I don't think the Mac will make the playoff ever. I'm. I'm sort of of the mind that it won't exist. Probably.

[Bill Bender]

Know.

[Bill Landis]

I just think like, like what would be required of a Mac team to make the playoff. And I think of Northern Illinois last year beating Notre Dame and then going 4 and 4 of the Mac, right?

[Doug Lemurice]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Landis]

It's just like far too volatile of a conference, I think, for, for anybody to emerge with a playoff resume even this past week. Right. Like. So I wrote a story on Friday about Ohio coming to play Ohio State and trying to put into context because Ohio State doesn't often play really good Mac teams, how good Ohio was. And I talked to somebody from Hustle Belt and he said, well, Ohio should be considered one of the favorites and Toledo and probably Buffalo. And then Buffalo almost lost to Kent State this week. Kent State and SP plus is behind two Division 2 teams and almost. And almost beat Buffalo. So I just don't think the league lends itself to that. It lends itself to really fun football and entertaining games, but not to somebody emerging and flirting with a playoff spot.

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[Doug Lemurice]

All right, last question here for our OU friends and and I feel like this has become more of a thing over time in in sports media. Sports media has just completely flipped on its head and changed entirely from was 15, 20 years ago in some, some very, very good ways and some perhaps more questionable ways. What is the appropriate way for people who cover college football to discuss their alma maters? And I think we can we mean like folks like us who are sort of covering teams and doing things, but I probably mean more like Dave Portnoy. It's like they get on here and it's like suddenly that is a primary part of the big noon kickoff show is like where he went to college. And I just wonder sometimes what fans think of that. Bill Bender Alma maters, do they matter.

[Bill Bender]

In small doses. So like when I think of Pat McAfee, I don't think of Pat McAfee, the West Virginia punter. You know, he may drop in the Go Mountaineers. You don't think of, you know, Desmond probably a little more, you think, because, you know, he always picks Michigan. Kirk Herbstrate. I really don't think, I mean, I don't want to go down that road too far, but I don't think of him as Ohio State quarterback. I think of him as ESPN analyst. So, you know, as far as broadcasters, writers in the press box, you know, a lot of people that cover Ohio State, you know, have ties to the university. And I've never thought that was a bad thing because I know you're more invested in the program, obviously, but how if you can take your emotion away from it a little bit, it makes you an even better reporter. So, you know, for us, I mean, it's easy. Ohio University grad. I always tell people my first beat, I mentioned those guys from the 99 team. Well, I lived with two of the guys on the team, so the advantage was, yeah, I knew everything that was going on at Ohio University that year, but the struggle to be objective and not root for your guys. But do I regret that as a 20 year old journalist?

[Doug Lemurice]

No.

[Bill Bender]

I was over at one of their houses over the weekend and talking to them and wore an Ohio University shirt and then watch the game like any other college football writer because you kind of knew what was coming. And I just, that's why I said in small doses, you can show it, but don't make it who you are.

[Doug Lemurice]

Yeah, well said, Gillis. What do you think?

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, I think Bender's 100. Right. You know, I think it is a little different. You know, I think it'd be, it'd be one thing if Bender and I went to, you know, Oregon and we had to come on and talk about Ohio State and Oregon. Right. I mean, Ohio State and Ohio are not at the same level. Right. So, you know, it almost feels like there's different, you know, they're playing different sports when they get on the field. So, yeah, I think he's right when he says in small doses, because I think it is irrational and, and probably short sighted to expect people who attended a university for four years, who likely love and, you know, cherish that university, who have a lot of really good feelings about that university, to just say, ah, yes, those don't exist anymore. Those feelings never happen, you know. You know, it's a little bit different than covering pro sports. You know, like when I was covering the Bengals for cleveland.com I didn't work and live at Paycor Stadium for four years. You know, I lived at Ohio University for four years. And I love Ohio University and I love Athens. And I can't say that about the Bengals because that's not true. So it's different in college and I think it's okay. But I also think that there's a way to tap into that because, I mean, you know, maybe better than anybody else, what your fan base wants, you're connected to the fan base maybe, and other people in ways that other people aren't. I mean, if, if I were to start covering the University of Texas right now, I've never lived in Texas. I didn't go to Texas. There are people that went to UT that have a way better connection to the Texas program than I do. And I think, you know, if I. If Ohio ever became a Big Ten school and they're, you know, at the level of Ohio State and Penn State and everybody like that, you know, I would probably have a better understanding, a better knowledge of how this happened and a better feel on the fan base than maybe people who weren't around in 2016 or 2017 when they're playing in the Bahamas Bowl. Right? There are just things that you have intrinsic knowledge about that other people can't. So if you can tap into that in. In small doses, I think you can do a really good job with it.

[Doug Lemurice]

Landis, what do you think?

[Bill Landis]

I have a slightly different situation because of where I went to school. Now. There is nobody on the Ohio CP that I'm aware of that went to Michigan. That would be a whole other thing. But, like, the next sort of, like, other thing I think is probably my situation. Like, I went to Penn State and I cover Ohio State. It's never been an issue for me. I get asked about it all the time, and I tell the truth and say, it doesn't matter. I'm not a Penn State fan. Whatever.

[Bill Bender]

I didn't even know you went there. And I've been around this long. So, like, that. That tells you right there you're doing the right thing.

[Bill Landis]

My hope is that I can just do a good enough job that, you know, it comes through that that doesn't really, you know, impact my coverage in either. In any kind. Of any kind of way. But I also understand, like, if I say, like, I'm safe and there are probably people who don't believe me, that's fine, too. I will say, Doug, like you mentioned Portnoy, right? And I. He's. He is not a good example of this. But I do think, like, college football is so unique that. And by that, I mean in terms of, like, the.

[Doug Lemurice]

The.

[Bill Landis]

The. The passion and the emotional ties that people have to the sport. To the sport. That I'm okay with fan sentiment, like, being baked into the coverage of college football as long as it's not done, like, in the way that he does it.

[Doug Lemurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

Like, there. There is. There's being passionate about your team, and then there is having a platform and, like, you know, spreading lies about other teams. Right? Like that.

[Doug Lemurice]

That.

[Bill Landis]

That crosses a line. But I think it is good on some level for. For fan perspective to be involved in the. In the coverage and presentation of college football just because of how intrinsically tied. The two are together. It's, it's totally different than professional sports in my opinion.

[Doug Lemurice]

And I do think acknowledging the, that fan side is very relatable. Right. Because every single person who consumes any of our content is a college football fan, otherwise they wouldn't be here. So if you can let that like give a little tip of the cap, it's like. Yeah, no, I, I, I get that. I think the specificity of it sometimes and I guess it's more, it's one of these things. The media is a great big giant thing. But sometimes when it's like a pregame discussion is about, well, this is your school and obviously you're biased and you're going to pick your team to win, but we're acting like it's analysis for a little bit is so weird to me. Right. That why would you have somebody who, who's completely biased talk about a game or analyze a game? So that's the thing that, that specs, it's like, who's this for right now? It's not for the person talking, it's for the audience. And I think sometimes there are moments where I'm like, I can't believe there's anybody who actually wants this. But to capture like the idea that there is passion and you share that passion I think is really good. And I mean like the idea of like that you would be biased against a team or a group of teams just because of who they are and who, I mean, it's just, it's annoying and it's unprofessional.

[Bill Landis]

All right, I agree.

[Doug Lemurice]

Bill Bender, Andrew Gillis, thanks for being here on around the Shoe. It wasn't quite as good as you thought it would be, Bender. Right, like you thought, you thought we would be better at this. Didn't you think that?

[Bill Bender]

No, this was fun. It was good. I, I like the mix of questions. I was thinking about the fourth down question way too much this morning. So show us your notes. Show us your drawing. For myself. No. And like long story short, my now my brother in law is coaching flag football and I started like he's saying, you know, do this play and I started drawing up a couple and sending them to him. Run this on first down, you know, so we take it seriously. But yeah, you can find our [e-mail] I, I'm sure I'll be around you guys soon enough. I'll be at Ohio or Ohio State, Penn State, Oregon next week for that game and, and we'll see. Like I said, the Nittany Lions. We'll see how real this is because they have a lot on the line as a program in that game.

[Doug Lemurice]

Absolutely. No, that'll be a fascinating game and huge for how this playoff race shakes out. So, Bill Bender, thanks for being here. Andrew Gillis, what do you have [e-mail]?

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah, we have a lot of good stuff coming. We obviously still have our subtext service, 614-350-3315. I had to say that because Stephen did the last time he was on, so I had to. I had to plug that. I heard Stephen do it, and I was like, you know what? I'm not going to get in trouble for not doing it. So Stephen did it. I'm gonna do it. Yeah, we got a lot of really good stuff, recruiting stuff, features, stuff like that as we head into the bye week. You know, it's. It's a fun time over there. I do. I do really like, you know, having the guys that we have. And I do feel a little bad now because Bill said he thought too much about that fourth and goal question, and that was the one that I spent five seconds on. And it was basically just like the Devonte Mack, no matter what draft day thing, it was just throw ball, two, four, and that was it. And that was that. So I'm like, all right, well, maybe I'm just. Maybe I'm the on on this one. But yeah, I. I'm glad to come on because Doug and I only did one podcast together before.

[Doug Lemurice]

Wow. Changing of the guard. Wow. How about that one podcast? What was enough for you? Frankly, you were like, I'm actually good. This is enough. Well, thank you for being here, Andrew Gillis. And if you're listening on a podcast and not watching on YouTube, I put on a bald cap and glasses and a Georgia hat over the course of this show. But Landis, people know that by now. They know what I'm doing.

[Bill Landis]

I think people who listen just to the audio version assume you're always in a bald cap in a Georgia hat.

[Andrew Gillis]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

So you don't.

[Doug Lemurice]

No, I don't have to tell them. And Gillis, tell Stefan his invite's coming. We don't want him to feel like, oh, the other two cleveland.com guys got to be on. We got the whole plan mapped out. He'll be on soon enough. Thanks to you guys for being here. Thanks to you guys for watching and listening. We do it every Monday here Around The Shoe Talking 5 Ohio State topics for now for Bill Bender of the Sporting News. For Andrew Gillis of cleveland.com For Bill Landis, I'm Doug Lemurice, and that was around the shoe on the Bill and Doug Show.