← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Ohio State beats Rutgers, moves on to Michigan week, will the passing game be ready? Live Postgame
00:42:37
Ohio State beat Rutgers 42-9 on Saturday in the final regular-season home game for the Buckeyes in Ohio Stadium this season. The attention immediately turned to the Michigan game next week, and to the health of receivers Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate, who did not play against Rutgers.
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- [00:02]
A
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- [01:32]
C
Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lamoris Bill Landis high atop Ohio Stadium after the Buckeyes 42 to nine win over Rutgers. Ohio State now 11 and oh, that's more regular season wins than last year.
- [01:45]
D
Bill. It. It is. I actually hadn't thought of that. What the. So they won 10 last year. What do they win in 23? They won 10, right? No, I guess I won 11 that year. Yeah. Yeah. I already eclipsed last year's win total. How about it?
- [02:01]
C
Yeah. Thanks everybody for being here. We see you guys in the chat. Thank you so much for joining us here on YouTube. If you're listening back on a podcast. If you're watching back on YouTube, thank you for partaking in the Bill and Doug Show. Like, subscribe, tell a friend. Two main things. We both went down to the Ohio State post game. It was Ryan Day, it was Kenyatta Jackson, it was Kaden Curry, it was Carson Hinsman and that.
- [02:23]
D
And Max Claire.
- [02:24]
C
Oh, and Max Claire did not get Julian saying Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate did not play. I. I don't. We got some in the chat. I don't know if if we're going to keep talking about like how we think they walked because like we're here reporting and we're going to keep telling you that they seemed pretty good walking off the field. Ryan Day in the post game characterized them as day to day. What vibes did you get from Ryan Day about whether Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith will play next week in Ann Arbor?
- [02:55]
D
Yeah, I mean, I'm still thinking they're going to play. I. Similar to what I said last week. Right. Just if they were in, if they were in any way thinking they weren't going to have them for the Michigan game, I think he'd sort of be able to see it on Ryan Day's face. And, and I, and I did not get that vibe. He was actually, whatever, fairly loose for a guy who's going into Michigan week now, I guess, for whatever that's worth. So. And then, you know, watching them on the sideline, Jeremiah's on a stationary bike, like trying to keep whatever's ailing him loose. Carnell Tate's just sitting there. I thought they were walking fine. And so I'm kind of in the same place I was. What was last Tuesday when we talked about this? Right. Not expecting to play this week. They did not. Still expecting them to play next week.
- [03:38]
C
So there's, there's two main things here. One is the state of the Ohio State passing game. And one, I think is the strategy that Ohio State is clearly taking in to Michigan week. Let's talk about the football stuff first. And, and the two parts of the Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith absence, Bill. One is Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate are two of the best receivers in college football. Jeremiah Smith probably is the best one. And when they are not on the field, Ohio State misses them. But I think almost as big of a story is the fact that it feels like Ohio State doesn't necessarily have a bunch of guys just ready this next man up thing that every team talks about, Ohio State always talks about. I think the receivers today had the past. The receivers, not the tight ends, not the running backs. The receivers, I think, had four catches on seven targets for 33 yards. Correct. And there is not this crop of the next young guys who just seem to. All right, here we go. Quincy Porter was also injured and did not play today as a true freshman. Bryson Rogers, Myelin Graham, David Adolf, and then of course, Brandon Ennis were the primary receivers. But Mylan Graham, who is a guy that I think certainly people would have expected to be among the first guys up, did not play for most of the game. And we were trying to get. We were looking at him through binoculars. Is there something, is there an ankle wrap? How's he moving? And then when Brandon Ennis briefly got hurt, he came in the game and then he started playing. And it turns out. He's not hurt at all. They just did play him.
- [05:08]
D
Yeah, I, he didn't play at all in the first half. Finally came onto the game in the third quarter. Ryan Day, asked after the game why that was the case, said, we're looking for consistency from Mylan, which he has said before, and we're challenging him a little bit and sort of insinuated that when he shows us those things in response to them, he'll, he'll, he'll play more. And if you think back, like last week, had that ball over the middle that he dropped, had the third down target against Purdue early in that game that he dropped. And it is, it is a bit jarring, I think. Right. I'm trying not to overreact to it but, but it's a bit jarring to me to sort of see he is the next like oldest five star in waiting. And maybe our expectations are just unrealistic because of all the success that Ohio State has had. But the lack of receiver depth is apparent to me and, and somebody in the, in the comments that what I wrote initially on subst stock after the game said, like, I'm not freaking out about this game. It's Rutgers, they were powered down. They're just trying to get to Michigan. And like, I largely agree with a lot of that.
- [06:08]
C
Yeah.
- [06:08]
D
But I do wish that the receiver depth were a little more recognizable than it has been the last two weeks. Sort of like for Ohio State's sake, in the event that they don't have Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith next week or for any like, prolonged period of time. There's been really nothing the last two games that would give you a ton of confidence that they'll be able to throw the ball effectively without those two guys.
- [06:28]
C
Yeah, I mean, I, some of the stuff in the, you know, someone's mentioning in the chat, I'm pretty sure Mylan would have played a lot more if JJ and Taint were gonna. And Tate weren't playing next week. Like, I disagree with that.
- [06:39]
D
Like, I don't. Then why? Like, I, yeah, I don't disagree. I don't agree with that. You're saving him for what receiver to.
- [06:44]
C
Play your seventh best receiver. And here's the thing. Even if Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate start the game next week and look great, you're always one play away, whether it's the same injury or a different injury or you get hit by a cameraman before the game. The idea, and I think to me this was such a different thing this week because last week Jeremiah Smith was questionable. Then he played. And then these backups had to play more. And it was like, well, how much did they really work with the first team? And this was. I think we all knew all week that Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate were not going to play against Rutgers. I'm assuming that was reflected in the first team reps and, and just watching the game and you guys can see a lot of it at home on tv, we understand that. But here, watching it from above, the receivers just were not getting open. There was not separation on any kind of regular basis. And so if you're assuming that, well, they were just like playing at vanilla. They were powering down, whatever. They're still running routes and they're not getting separation. And the result is Max Claire is the main target because they're running little crossers for the tight end. It is, it is an interesting situation that there is an assumption of Ohio State endless receiver depth, and it's not apparent right now. And you just can't be a thousand percent sure. We anticipate Jeremiah Smith and Cardinal Tate will start against Michigan next week.
- [08:02]
D
Yes.
- [08:03]
C
But then who knows what's going to happen? And I think legitimately I was surprised at the lack of receiver impact in.
- [08:11]
D
This game, as was. I really did think again, assuming that those two stars weren't going to play, that with a week of preparation and rhythm and comfort and timing and all that stuff, that we would just see something a little different. I guess it was more efficient, right? Julian saying ends up 13 of 19. He was, he was more efficient in this game than he ended up being last week against ucla, especially once Jeremiah Smith went out of the game. But there was no explosion. And really the, the crux of it is what you mentioned. Like, we just have sort of just like Bird's eye view, right. And Fox does a pretty good job, I think, of showing a wider television angle than say, like ESPN does. But it didn't feel to me like there were opportunities to attack downfield. Now, in with that is the fact that, I don't know that they were trying to attack down the field much. It wasn't like they were calling a bunch of shot plays and they weren't developing the right way. But even the, the shorter and intermediate stuff, there was just not the same level of, of whatever separation, openness, whatever, whatever that might be from these receivers, say, for a couple plays. I'm not saying it never happened, but to see this, to see the receiver. There was one play where Brandon Ennis was wide open down the field. And Julian Saying didn't throw him the ball. To see the receivers get targeted seven times on 19 attempts is. Is kind of crazy.
- [09:24]
C
Yeah. Max Claire, seven catches on eight targets for 105 yards. By far the leading receiver at tight end, David Adolf, two catches on three targets for 23 yards. Brandon Innis, two catches on four targets for 10 yards. Jelani Thurman at tight end, one catch on one target for 19 yards. Bo Jackson, one catch, one target for 14 yards. Bennett Christian, one catch, one target for 5 yards. And they threw to Bryson Rogers once. And it's not an official target because there was a pass interference only on it. Yeah, but I mean we just. The main thing we want to communicate to you guys is that from our view from the non TV copy from watching the, the entire past game unfold, guys were not getting open. And so, and I, I don't know that if it's all these ifs, I don't know if they're gonna get open against Michigan. So like it, it becomes this thing. Do we think Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate will play? Yes, we're going to hundred times between now and next Saturday. But. And I said this to you, you know, Garrett Wilson and Chris Olive didn't play in the Rose bowl and Jackson Smith and Jigba had 300 receiving yards and Marvin Harrison Jr. Had 150 or whatever it was. And you said what?
- [10:35]
D
They had a month to prepare for that game.
- [10:37]
C
Yeah, which is true, but they also had a week to prepare for this and there wasn't a lot there. So it's surprising. Like I think the way I'm reacting because I'm so surprised by it, not that, not that there is, is not a, gonna be a drop between Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and anybody but that there's. And maybe Quincy Porter's the answer. But also Quincy Porter's a true freshman. If it's like, well, true freshman's also hurt and that means we have no receiver depth. That's an odd place for Ohio State to be.
- [11:05]
D
And Quincy Porter has been sort of like on and off the availability report for like the entire back half of the season too. So I don't, I don't even know that his availability is something that I would consider reliable. I think there, there's one way to look at it which is they, in anticipation of them getting Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith back for the Michigan game, they weren't going to push the envelope in this one because there's just kind of no point to do that. But even if you get them back and you've sort of, like, danced around this, like, they're going to be playing, like, not 100%, and. And in theory, something could happen to them where they might have to leave the game. So, like, I. At the very least, I thought Ohio State should have been trying to, like, work out some passing game with the young receivers in this one. Like. Like, yes. In a lot of ways, this felt like Ohio State was scrimmaging ruckers and just, like, trying stuff. And at times it got a little weird. Why, in the midst of that, working out some stuff with the passing game didn't feel like part of the plan is a little puzzling to me because it's one of those things, right. Like, it doesn't matter until it matters. And. And when you have your two starters who are at the very least going to be playing somewhat banged up probably the rest of the way, or at least the next two weeks that they beat Michigan and they go to the Big Ten championship. I. I don't know. I would have liked to see an Ohio State kind of build a little something with those younger receivers, and it really didn't feel like they tried to. And then the few opportunities maybe there were to do that, it just did not look, like, super crisp in a way. Like, I don't. Are you alarmed by it? I don't alarm. I'm more just like, huh, I'm surprised. Yeah. I'm, like, surprised by it. I don't think I'm alarmed by it, but I am surprised by it.
- [12:40]
C
Not alarm, because it's probably not gonna matter.
- [12:43]
D
Yeah.
- [12:44]
C
But if Ohio State gets to a point, at any point during the rest of this season, and. Because I think if they have one, it changes everything. Right. As long as they have one, that guy now is drawing double coverage. It opens everything up. This is one of the things. Again, Ted Gin Jr gets hurt in the national championship game against Florida. It changes the game plan, but it also changes the way that Florida is going to play Ohio State. So there's nobody who's drawing double coverage right now, and there's no reason to be afraid of the Ohio State passing game right now. There's not.
- [13:14]
D
I think you could see, you know, not without the. No, without those two, there's not.
- [13:17]
C
So then. So what are the chances that Ohio State is going to play any game the rest of the season with neither of those two guys on the field? I'm not expecting it.
- [13:31]
D
Neither am I.
- [13:32]
C
But if it happens, I'm not sure if Ohio State's gonna be able to throw the ball. So. So that's where I am. It's probably not going to matter. But I'm a little surprised about how ineffective they were because, listen, the guys are still running rounds, they're still dropping back to pass a little bit, and there's nothing there. If you guys, I mean, like Julian saying is trying to thread a lot of balls in there.
- [13:55]
D
Yeah, right.
- [13:55]
C
And so when you run a route, your goal is to get open. And they, they just weren't getting open. So it, I'll just say for the 100th time that I'll stop saying it. It probably won't matter, but if it does, I think it could be an issue.
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- [15:01]
D
Yeah, I mean, you rethink the long term projection for Ohio State, right? Like, I. Don't you want to just like, kind of single it to next week? I. I don't know. I, I think they could beat Michigan with like, what kind of what we saw today. Yes, because the defense is so good.
- [15:15]
C
So good.
- [15:16]
D
And they're run like, you know, the running game does seem like it's rounding in the form a little bit. And I've said this a bunch of times like this, partly because they're playing bad run defenses. And Michigan, whatever you think of it, is better than Rutgers and UCLA and Purdue at stopping the run. So we'll see what it looks like when they play a better defense. But there's at least some momentum there. And I think all the backs that are getting the ball look pretty good right now, so that's great. So it's not like I'm not doom and gloom. They don't have those guys In Ann Arbor, there's no way they can win. I actually think they can win. I just kind of don't think they could win a national championship without them. But I don't know that that's where anybody's mind is right now either going into next week.
- [15:49]
C
No, I think that's fair. And the thing is, Ohio State's still a very good team, but the passing game is what makes them special. The receivers are what makes them special. This foundation of this defense that gives up one touchdown a game and is the best defense in the country and has no vulnerabilities really has all Americans flying around all over the place and is playing so connected and showed that again today. Again. Rutgers throws for 277 yards per game. This is a pretty decent offense. Nathan Kallak Manus was 10 of 20 for 81 yards. So we have to give it. Be like ass Rutgers. You have to give some respect to this Rutgers offense. They've thrown on people. They did not throw on Ohio State. So that. And their only touchdown drive was. Was with seven backups in the game.
- [16:32]
D
Yeah.
- [16:33]
C
So we understand all of that. That foundation is huge. And then the second part of it is all the questions that we've had about the run game all year. 38 carries for 254 yards, 6.7 yard average. Bo Jackson 19 for 110 and two touchdowns. James Peoples, three carries for 55 yards exploding at the end of the game. Isaiah West 8 for 48. And then Lincoln Keenholtz has a wrinkle, 3 for 37. Imagine if Ohio State couldn't run it today. So okay, defense, rock solid, best defense in the country. And then the second part of the offense that we've wondered about all year, what would you give the run game today?
- [17:09]
D
I would probably give it like a B, only because there were probably too many negative runs still. I think there were. I actually didn't tally it up in the end, but somebody had made note of it in the third quarter. And I think there were three negative runs and two more that went for no gain. I want to go back and re watch like exactly why that. I know one happened because like a receiver missed a block. I can't recall why the other the others happened. So that's keeping me from giving it an A. But I think they also had. Can you pull up the. The big plays section? I think they had like 11 or 12 runs of 10 yards or more and three runs of 20 yards or more. So High Estate had yeah, 11 runs of 10 plus yards and three runs of 20 plus yards, including James People's 49 yard touchdown at the end of the game. So like that I haven't gone back and tallied it. I would imagine that's the most double digit rushing plays they've had this year. 11.
- [18:07]
C
And, and this is the thing. This is what everybody wondered about. This is what everybody was concerned about. These are what all the questions were asked about all year. What, what if you needed. They needed it.
- [18:15]
D
Yeah, they needed it and they, they. Yeah. And I would almost honestly like whatever there, there were some negative runs and some zero yard runs. I would sacrifice some efficiency to get more explosiveness.
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C
Well, because there were some times where it's like, okay, they maybe had a loss of two and now it's second and 12 and then they gained 14 on right, on a run right where it's like all of a sudden, okay, now they're running wide zone and Bo Jackson is outside and it's like nobody's touched him and he's nine yards downfield. It's like, well, who cares about the negative two yard run on first down right now, right?
- [18:42]
D
Yeah. As long as you make up for it then, then it's kind of a, a non issue. I was like, almost like Rutgers like didn't set the edge at all really at any point in this game. And, and second level defenders had a heck of a time tracking down running backs which is a credit to ohis running backs as we've been sort of. I'm not gonna beg them all year to start doing that stuff. And then when they finally do it like, oh well, the defense stinks like there, there's a mix like both, both sides of it can be true. I thought it was good to see Bo Jackson like after that fumble like one get back in the game and score right away, including making a guy miss. Continue to be very impressed by James Peoples. It really does feel like he's turned the corner. We didn't see a ton of C.J.
- [19:20]
C
Donaldson.
- [19:20]
D
How many carries? Yeah, three carries. So that, that's, that's interesting. It did see like he sort of like reemerged as a short yardage guy after Beau fumbled down on the one, but no, I, I Do you want to see every position group surging? Right? And I don't know that that's happening for Ohio State across the board necessarily, but it's definitely happening for the running backs.
- [19:39]
C
Let's, let's stay a little bit in the run game while we're here. Tega Shabola probably got 70 of the snaps at right guard, maybe, maybe 80.
- [19:47]
D
He got all but two drives with the starters.
- [19:50]
C
So Gabe Van Sickle was the guy who came in. And then Josh Padilla was not on the injury report today. He was in uniform, but he didn't really seem to have his helmet. And when like the offense was gathering and hey, we're out on the field and all the ones and twos are out there, he was never out there. So he was never going to play in this game today. Which then kind of makes me wonder, like, why wasn't he on the injury report?
- [20:12]
D
But does it make you think he's not going to play next week? Because I, I think.
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C
Could you.
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D
Yeah, I think, I think he's probably not.
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C
And. But also the emergence of Gabe Van Sickle. And then as has been sort of the continuing story of Tiger Shabola, when you start rotating and you push him a little bit, then he kind of rises to the occasion that, I don't know, you know, there's a couple plays today, whatever.
- [20:34]
D
There's always a couple.
- [20:35]
C
There's always a couple. But I don't know, is. Is we've been again, right guard. It's one of those things, all the things that you worry about when Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tater just walking through the world healthy and it's just like, my God, nobody care in the world. The birds are singing, the sun is shining, there's wonderful cumulus clouds across the sky and it's like, man, what am I worried about? Let's really talk about the right guard. Remember we talked about special teams.
- [21:00]
D
Yeah.
- [21:01]
C
And then the two best receivers in college football get hurt. You're like, right guard, they're fine.
- [21:07]
D
Yeah. Gay Van Sickle, I at least on one of his drives was not very good. Okay, the drive where there was a third down target David Adolf that he dropped, I guess the third drive of the game, maybe first down run for no gain because Brandon and has kind of missed a block. Second down, I think was an incompletion because the right side and gave ancicle in particular did not pick up a stunt. Third down, Julian saying has to scramble because again gave Van Sickle to not pick up a stunt. And they threw incomplete. And then on the next drive, on third down, Rutgers ran a very similar stunt and Tegara picked it up and then Julian completed to David Adolf for a first down. So I had thought Gay Van Sickle had been playing well when he's been in there the last couple of games. I did not feel that as much in this game and I think that was probably reflected in how little he played because it wasn't really much of a rotation today.
- [22:01]
C
Yeah. Because as we've been seeing, there'd been a lot of like, two series on, two series off. And, like, I don't know that Gabe Van Sickle, as you're saying, like, didn't play consecutive series, I don't think.
- [22:09]
D
No, he got that series early and then didn't come back in until like late in the third quarter, I think. Yeah.
- [22:14]
C
So, you know, that's. That's kind of the state of the offense, that. And then the last. The last part of it is we saw more Lincoln Keen Holtz.
- [22:23]
D
Yes.
- [22:23]
C
Than we had seen all year. It wasn't just at the goal line. It wasn't just running the ball. I think some people were frustrated. They certainly were frustrated in the chat. He wound up one of three passing for 19 yards. But his two incompletions, one, that was. There was a roughing the passer penalty that sort of wiped out the incompletion or maybe would have been one for four, I guess.
- [22:45]
D
Yeah.
- [22:47]
C
And that was incomplete. But you were saying you thought the underneath route that was. They threw the ball in fourth. And two, you thought there was an underneath route that was open if he had chosen to make that throw instead.
- [22:56]
D
Yeah, one of those plays where. Where you roll in to one side of the field, also to his left, which I thought was interesting. So he has to throw across his body and he ended up throwing a little deeper and was incomplete. But they got the roughing, the passer. But yeah, I thought. I can't remember if it was a running back or a tight end, kind of was in the middle of sort of like a 3, 3 route flood kind of thing and was sort of like wide open right at the sticks. But I guess Lincoln never got his eyes down to see that. And he didn't throw it. And. And then the other one was the Brandon in his play right where you were like, I think not shouting, but going like, he's open, he's open, he's open, he's open. And then he threw it too late.
- [23:32]
C
Rolling right and Brandon is coming left to right across the field. And it just opened the whole time. And then by the time Lincoln. Lincoln Keenholtz is both late and behind with the throw. And Joel Clout, we know, pointed it out a lot on the broadcast. And so I think there were people frustrated again, if you want to, you know, if you want to join us on substack, Bill and Doug osu.substack.com we have a 14 day free trial. What's the special thing?
- [23:55]
D
14 day free trial through the Friday before the Big Ten championship game. So basically the next two weeks. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:02]
C
And it's Bill and Doug osu.substack.com backslash the game special.
- [24:08]
D
Just go. It's on. Because it would be easier to go to my Twitter. Slash X page. X page Bill Landis 25. And it's pinned right there at the top.
- [24:17]
C
What's the 25 for?
- [24:19]
D
It was the number I wore when I played baseball.
- [24:21]
C
I was gonna say, yeah, I like.
- [24:22]
D
Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [24:25]
C
Were you on the Juice?
- [24:26]
D
I wasn't, no. I wish to be on the Juice. Yeah.
- [24:29]
C
Unless the Juice is a cheesesteak.
- [24:32]
D
I was definitely one of those.
- [24:33]
C
I was on the Cheese. I was on the whiz. Roback.com, r h o b a c k.com b a d 20 will get you 20% off your first order by an Ohio State shirt. There's somebody here who bought a Roback shirt and gave us a little money. So we appreciated that. So I understand people being frustrated in the chat. Our game chat on Subtech is very robust and people were frustrated by even calling the Lincoln Keenholtz pass plays. But I thought like they were schemed effectively and they were a little bit of a wrinkle. But. But if he's not going to make the reads and make the throws, you can't run him against Michigan. You can't run pass plays against Michigan. If he's not going to. It's not going to work. And I think the scheme worked. They just weren't executed.
- [25:13]
D
Yeah. And it was interesting to me too. I want to go back and look at it now, but I think maybe every pass attempt he had was some kind of play action boot thing. So like they want to get him moving and give him the option to run because he even had a, he had a scramble where he picked up like five yards pretty easily that I.
- [25:29]
C
Thought, like, oh, he just kind of ran out of bounds for no games. Like, no, it's second and four now. That was the easiest six yards I've ever seen.
- [25:35]
D
Yeah. And he has that like he, I will say, like he's. You can see his athleticism. Right. Compared to the Devin Brown backup quarterback. This guy can run experience. I think it looks much better. But the throwing. Yeah. Like leaves a little something to be desired. Which is why Julian Sains, the team's starting quarterback. I, I understand the frustration. I very much Thought it was weird sort of within the throws of the game to see those plays called. I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to like kind of get him on film and let him get that experience and work through it. So that teams, when Lincoln gets into the game, don't just go, that guy's running. But yeah, it could have looked better.
- [26:16]
G
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- [26:46]
C
I'm a high note hitting songbird, but.
- [26:49]
H
I'm also a bird watching backpacker.
- [26:52]
C
Woodthrush, 3 o'. Clock.
- [26:54]
H
Walmart has a wellness side too, with tons of things I need to feel good, from electrolytes to help keep me hydrated to soothing cough drops for after every show.
- [27:03]
D
Oh, man. How about waterproof boots, size 10?
- [27:06]
H
They've got half a billion things online, on the app and in store.
- [27:10]
C
Really?
- [27:11]
D
Who knew?
- [27:12]
C
Okay, was that you or the birds? Check out the wellness side of Walmart today. So a couple of the run plays were really nice. You had one kind of an outside run that he got to the edge, kind of like a naked boot, right? There's a defensive end there and he skipped away from that guy and then got like 18 yards on it was like, well, that's that. That was really good. So here's my question about it. It's like, why did that happen? Because Gus Johnson on the call was just like, joel, why are they doing this? I wonder if that if you are having trouble throwing the ball without your two best receivers and, and even if you anticipate having them, if they get into a situation, if they get into any game the rest of the way where you don't have either of those guys. Now how do you have any offensive balance? Because if you're not sure, you can threaten people with the run. And it reminds me a little bit of how Michigan used to do it back when they weren't really throwing it very well. But their balance was the ingenuity of the run game. And that there is. So there are. So that when Michigan was running it well and getting to the playoff, they weren't just turning around and handing it to the tailback every time they Were running a ton, but they were running jet sweeps and giving it to the receivers. They were running the quarterback. They were putting a running quarterback wrinkle into the game and you were keeping a defense off balance without really threatening them in the past game because there was so much variety to your run game. And I wondered if that's why Lincoln Keenholtz had more plays in this game. We anticipate Jeremiah Smith and Cardinal tape playing, but if they don't, we want some variety and if we can't get variety throwing the ball, this will help us get some variety in our offense.
- [29:02]
D
I, I am not there with you. I think this was. One, it's Rutgers and we can do it. Two, we like Lincoln. He's an iron Buckeye. He's put in his time. He's been a very good backup quarterback. This might be his last game in the shoe and that's why they did it. I, I don't, I don't know that they were getting anything ready necessarily.
- [29:24]
C
But we always, I mean we always are asking, what do you got for Michigan? Show me. Like, what do you got? Like, what are you saving? What are you doing? We talk about putting stuff on film. Do you think Lincoln Keenholtz will go into the game on second and six from the 40 yard line next week? No, I think he will. So we can make a little. Yeah, we can make a little.
- [29:46]
D
Make a wager on that Silly Billy.
- [29:48]
C
And French Vanilli style bet on that.
- [29:49]
D
I think he will not play at all next week.
- [29:51]
C
Okay. Yeah, I think they will try something with him and that there was purpose in this beyond giving Lincoln a farewell in the shoe. So I, I'm very intrigued by that. And, but, but like, like, I would respect it if there was, like, if they did it. If there is. Are you going to be like, what are they doing? They're dorking around in the game. Are you going to be like, all right, I see you.
- [30:12]
D
It depends on if it works. The answer to everything is great call if it works.
- [30:18]
C
So we will continue to monitor this through the course of the week. Obviously, you know, again, we're, we're getting eyeballs on these guys as much, as much as we possibly can. And we continue to anticipate that. Again, the way they were moving around today, Jeremiah Smith spent almost the entire game on the bike. He wasn't like, he was kind of barely pedaling and then sometimes he'd stand on the bike to see what's going on. A lot of times he was just sitting there, but then he'd pedal a little bit. And Carnell Tate spent the game on a Gatorade cooler. Part of me thinks, I don't know, I'd get him a seat, but I.
- [30:54]
D
Guess I like to sit on a cooler because then you can just like, like kind of squat up a little bit, grab yourself a drink, and then sit right.
- [31:01]
C
Now, if you're grabbing, if you're going down. Right. I mean, like this. Like this action to go down and grab yourself a drink. I didn't see it. I was. I mean, I was just staring at him the whole game. Is that guy grabbing a Gatorade out of his own cooler.
- [31:11]
D
It could have been an empty cooler.
- [31:12]
C
It could have been empty cooler. Yeah. All right.
- [31:15]
D
Didn't you like that they were next to each other the whole game? I feel like it told me a little something.
- [31:19]
C
Yeah. No, they. They were two feet away from each other the whole time.
- [31:22]
D
Yeah.
- [31:23]
C
So they're hanging out. And again, like, they seem. They. They are not. They're not in it being wheeled around. They're not like the J.T. barrett.
- [31:35]
D
Yeah.
- [31:35]
C
Boot on your foot. No wheelie cart. That he took to the national championship game.
- [31:39]
D
Also, they're here and not training for the draft in Malibu, which I think maybe people had been concerned.
- [31:47]
C
Go to Malibu. The second part of this. So obviously everything flipped to the Michigan game right afterward. The message that Ryan Day is sending, and we have talked about it, we have written about it when they moved the band off Michigan week and had the. The best damn band of the land come to practice during the second bye week instead. And Ryan Day said, we want to keep Michigan week as normal as possible. That's why we moved it. I wrote 3,700 words on that because I thought it was such a big deal. He is absolutely locked in on keep the same routine. And his players are parroting that. That's how locked in they are. Because Kenyatta Jackson said it inside baseball like you guys don't care. But typically in a week, we talk to Ryan Day at noon on a Tuesday. Sometimes in the past, we've talked to other people. This year, we only talked to Ryan Day at noon on a Tuesday. And then we talk to players after practice. They come off the practice field, they have little tables set up, and we typically talk to, I would say between five and eight players on a Wednesday night. Many of the times in the past Michigan week, and with Thanksgiving week, media opportunities have changed. Sometimes everything's been done on a Monday to get done with it and get it over with. So then there's no other obligations. I don't know that we've ever talked to players after the Wednesday practice, the afternoon or evening before Thanksgiving. And that is what we are doing this week. And it is because Ryan Day wants to keep the routine. So it's the same. It's just another example of it. And these players are saying this, Bill. And so I. It feels Ryan Day is sort of staking his. I don't want to say legacy, but his viewpoint of the Michigan game on routine.
- [33:37]
D
Yes, this is.
- [33:38]
C
He's 0 and 4. How is he responding?
- [33:40]
D
No, he's 1 in 4.
- [33:41]
C
He's lost four in a row, but he is 1 in 4. And the one really meant a lot. He's 1 in 4. The Michigan game. His response is routine. And so if they win, great call. If they lose, people are going to go crazy. But what do you think generally of that idea? Because I think it's like, well, if we keep the routine, we think we're the better football team. And every other week when we do the same thing, we usually are the better football team. So why would we change what we do? It doesn't mean you don't change your attitude, but logistically, routine, routine, routine. It's different.
- [34:17]
D
It's funny.
- [34:18]
C
Michigan, the team, the team, the team.
- [34:21]
D
Routine, routine, routine, routine. Yeah. And I do think, because I think you could hear that and construe it, if you would like, into. While they're treating Michigan just like any other game, I think there's a way to, like, straddle the importance, the meaning, everything that goes into this rivalry with our weekly preparation is what. Is what fuels our greatness. Right. And I think that even goes back to last year. Like, I. I do believe they really feel like they landed on something with their playoff run, with how they prepared and did things for, like, and I mean everything, like from how they practice, when they practice, when they met, how they met everything. And I do think they've tried to carry that into this year. And I would like to. Today was a little weird, but I don't know that there's ever been a. I don't think Ohio State has played a game this year where, like, they started the game and it just was like, what did you guys do this week? Like, are you were even ready for this? Like, I think. I think that mindset has served them really well this year, and Ryan Day has, like, said as much and even said it again today. So I get wanting to fall back on it. Obviously, what they've done to this point hasn't worked and there's like, you know, meet the counter stallions of it. But like, like last year I think is probably the thing that's most on his mind. When Connor stalling himself was like the way Ohio State was clearly so much better than Michigan and they still lost. So that whatever they did last year, that approach had to change. And I think it makes sense to fall back on what they're talking about now. It doesn't guarantee success, but I do think there's a, there's a needle to sort of thread there with treating it with the proper reverence and respect and meaning that it deserves while not getting in your own head about the magnitude of it. And I think that's what they're trying to do. Yeah.
- [36:07]
C
So, you know, that's kind of what this is. And meanwhile Michigan is beating Maryland right now, is that correct?
- [36:13]
D
Yeah, it's 21 to 10 with about two minutes left in the first half.
- [36:18]
C
And so Ohio State obviously without two great receivers today. Michigan also is not playing Jordan Marshall. Justice Haynes, their number one back, is out at least through the end of the regular season. Jordan Marshall, who's been really good four straight 100 yard games, hurt his shoulder against Northwestern last week. We suspected he probably wouldn't play today. It seems like he's not playing today.
- [36:37]
D
I haven't, I haven't seen him. Yeah, the, the walk on Bryson cuddle, I think is they're leading Russia right now.
- [36:44]
C
Yeah. Okay. Okay. I don't know. It's like this. I was there for the beginning of the Ryan Day news conference. Then I peeled back to talk to Kenyatta Jackson and Kaden Curry. You were there, I think for the entire Ryan Day.
- [36:58]
D
Yes.
- [36:59]
C
What other things Ryan Day said, other vibes that you read? The one thing is like, I guess, you know, the idea to me of. I found it interesting that Ryan Day did during this week on Wednesday say like, you know, hey, like Julian, Sam will have a chance to work with these other receivers more in practice. And if the timing was off last week, like, you know, and then it, like we didn't really see much of that. I don't know, the timing was off but again, like the guys weren't getting open. I, I would have been interested in like how did you think your receivers, the receivers, not just the pass catchers, the receiver position, how well did you think they played? And you said like he kind of got asked that but didn't really answer it.
- [37:37]
D
Yeah, it was asked a version of it and he mentioned the third down catch that David Adolf had he mentioned the, he mentioned like last week and how well Brandon in his played and I think the touchdown that he had today. So he didn't like go scorched earth on his, on his young receivers. As specifically about Mylan Graham. He said what we mentioned earlier about the lack of consistency. But yeah, kind of didn't go down that road. I was a little torn between asking him like three different things. One was that one was how do you think Julian has managed the offense without Carnell and Jeremiah the last two weeks? And then the third, which I ended up asking was the last time we saw Carnell and Jeremiah play together. It was the Penn State game and the offense looked great. The offense looked like everything you kind of want it to be. What is, what is Ryan Day's confidence level that they can get back to that for the Michigan game without really any momentum going into it without those two guys and who knows how much they may practice this week even if they do play. And his answer to that was like, well, first we have to see what the availability is. And then he said like you do whatever it takes to win the game kind of thing. So he didn't really answer that either. So I don't know. It was, it was a, not a lot of information, I guess in Ryan's post game press conference. I think when as you turn the page in Michigan, it's more about vibes. Yeah. And like reading body language.
- [38:53]
C
So what'd you think of the vibes?
- [38:57]
D
Good. Good. I think I'm more maybe a little more interested in Tuesday. There definitely been Michigan Tuesdays where like Ryan Day walks into the room and it's like, I don't know, this feels like it's maybe weighing on you a little bit. I'm not anticipating that because a national title alleviates a lot of stress. So. And I think that's part of this too. It's like you lost, you still won it all. Is there anything in that that's like that is freeing and allows you to just go out there and be the better team that you are in this game? And I'm a little interested to see if we pick up on any of that as we talk to people this week.
- [39:34]
C
I'm a high note hitting songbird, but.
- [39:37]
H
I'm also a bird watching backpacker.
- [39:41]
C
Wood thrush, three o'. Clock.
- [39:42]
H
Walmart has a wellness side too, with tons of things I need to feel good, from electrolytes to help keep me hydrated, to soothing cough drops for after every show.
- [39:51]
D
Oh man. How about waterproof boots size 10.
- [39:55]
H
They've got half a billion things online on the app and in store.
- [39:58]
C
Really?
- [39:59]
D
Who knew?
- [40:00]
C
Okay, was that you or the birds? Check out the wellness side of Walmart today.
- [40:04]
D
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- [40:18]
C
A participating McDonald's. Julian saying 13 of 19 for 157 yards and two touchdowns. How do you think Julian Saying has managed the offense? And Jeremiah Smith.
- [40:33]
D
I've, I've made note of the, the. The opportunity had last week to throw a deep touchdown with Max Claire that he did not take. And if you watch both the All 22 and the TV copy, you can see Ryan Day kind of like put his hands on when that play didn't happen and then he had an opportunity to throw a touchdown to Brendan in his study. I think Ohio State still ended up scoring on that possession. So I guess it doesn't. Doesn't matter quite as much. But I thought he was better today. Like I, I really thought last week he looked a little like off of his game both with the ankle and the pressure he was getting and how much you slay was blitzing and then obviously like the two receivers not being there for much of the game. He was more efficient today. They didn't really. They didn't. Like I said, they didn't call a ton downfield. So he ended up with no attempts of 20 plus yards. On attempts of 10 plus yards he was one of six. So that's like less efficient than you're used to. But I, I just did not think he looked uncomfortable. I just think he sort of was running what they gave him today.
- [41:30]
C
Okay.
- [41:31]
D
Which was like not a lot.
- [41:33]
C
Yeah. And then guys just game guys kind of weren't open. Yeah. We don't, you know, we usually go longer than post game show. We don't have to like just sit here and make stuff up. I mean I think we.
- [41:41]
D
Yeah.
- [41:41]
C
The deal is. And there wasn't Carson Hesman dyed his hair blonde.
- [41:46]
D
He. Yes. So apparently earlier this season, I don't remember which game it was. Carson Hinsman and Luke Montgomery were both named offensive players of the game. And then when that happened, Carson Hinsman said to Luke Montgomery, if we do it again, I'll bleach my hair. And then it happened again last week and I guess Luke Montgomery held him to it. So he bleached his hair.
- [42:05]
C
But did Luke Montgomery bleach his hair?
- [42:08]
D
Not that I Noticed.
- [42:09]
C
Yeah.
- [42:09]
F
No.
- [42:09]
C
Carson Hinsman had his regular collar hair on Wednesday. He did squeeze this in Thursday or Friday. Yeah, Probably Luke all week being like, carson, what's up? Let's go. Yeah, like, come on. For real.
- [42:22]
D
I thought it's a good look. He's got kind of like a mullet thing going too. I think you can pull it off. Yeah, it looks good. Yeah.
- [42:28]
C
Like if a surfer lived in Wisconsin.
- [42:30]
D
Right. The one one thing. And this was noted in our. On our chat on Substack. Lorenzo Styles did leave this game with an apparent shoulder injury and Ryan Day was not asked about it post game. So we go again. What would he have said? I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't asked about it. He was asked about somebody being banged up. Can't recall. I'm pretty sure he was not asked by Lorenzo Style. So that'll be something to follow up on. But noteworthy that it was Bryce west who went into the game and they didn't bump Jermaine Matthews in at nickel, which is your favorite thing in the world.
- [43:03]
C
So they, they seemed, I mean, when they went to dime, they still had. They moved Devin Sanchez outside and they put Jermaine Matthews at nickel.
- [43:11]
D
Yes.
- [43:11]
C
But as their replacement for Lorenzo Styles in their normal defense, they did not do that because when they usually go dime and then Lorenzo Styles stays on the field and goes and bumps back to safety, when they do that, then Leroy Roper was in the game is as the deep safety in replacement Lorenzo Styles. So I'll be curious, like it. Because it continues to be sort of like an ongoing thing with Devin Sanchez of. I mean, you know, he's, he's a freshman cornerback, He's a five star recruit. He's very talented, but he's been beaten sometimes. And that would be, I think, the, the number one thing of if for some reason Lorenzo Styles wasn't on the field, would you be comfortable playing Devin Sanchez basically every snap? And, and that they played Bryce west in the slot a lot today is an indication. No.
- [44:02]
D
Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I guess I'm not terribly surprised by that. Although that, I mean, that is what they did against Illinois. They didn't have Lorenzo against Illinois. Jerry Matthews played nickel and Devin Sanchez played outside. And there were times in that game when Illinois picked on him. So maybe that was enough in that moment for them to kind of deviate from that. We'll see if Lorenzo Styles has had, he's had like a brace on his shoulder practically since he's been Here going back a couple of years and I think it's knocked him out of games a couple of times and that seems to have be what happened today. So we'll see if he can't play through it next week. It also could be a game too where they're not using the nickel a lot and maybe they're playing more with with three linebackers. Maybe it won't matter as much for Michigan.
- [44:42]
C
Fifty snap Peyton Pierce game.
- [44:43]
D
Yeah.
- [44:44]
C
Three LB's could be.
- [44:45]
D
Yeah.
- [44:45]
C
When he came out, Lorenzo Styles went straight to the tent. I don't know that he was in the tent super long. No, he came out, didn't have his helmet, was still standing on the sideline. It was not carted off or anything. So could be a stinger, could be like a re aggravation of something that then you can get it fixed in during the weekend and be back. We're gonna have a bunch of stuff this week. Make sure you're tuned in to this YouTube channel, this podcast channel, wherever you're watching and listening to this. Subscribe so you don't miss anything. And that would be a great week to join us on our sub stack because you can do it for free up until the day before the Big Ten championship game. So billanddugosu substack.com we'll end it here. You guys have lies to lead and when. When we need to go 90 minutes on a show, we do. When we need to go 45, we do. I think everyone knows what's up. Yeah, Ohio State's last four in a row to Michigan and their two great receivers didn't play today and they could really use them next week.
- [45:37]
D
So that's about it.
- [45:38]
C
That's what we'll monitor. And thanks you guys as always for being here. Hope you have a great Thanksgiving week with friends and family. And if you're traveling, we hope you do so safely and then we will be back. You know, obviously Bill's gonna be in Ann Arbor next week. I will be the home office making sure that the postgame show can go up nice and quickly and a lot of coverage this week. Even wish Thanksgiving. We'll be talking a lot here. We'll be writing a lot on substack and we'll be hanging out with you guys and we're always grateful for that. So for now, we'll wrap it up. He's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lame Reese. Ohio State beats Rutgers 42 to 9. They're 11 0. They're undefeated. They're the number one team in the country, the defending national champs, and they're going to Michigan next week. What else do you want?
- [46:22]
D
This is great. This is what we wanted.
- [46:24]
C
That's what we wanted. Thanks, you guys, for being here. That was the Bill and Doug show.
- [46:33]
E
With stays under 250 a night, Verbo makes it easy to celebrate sweater weather. Book a cabin with leaf views or a home with a fire pit for nights with friends with stays under $250 a night, find a home for your exact needs. Book now@vrbo.com tis the season of gifting.
- [46:50]
F
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