← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Ohio State Buckeyes vs. Philadelphia Eagles: Common lessons from 2 football champs who didn't repeat
00:41:37
The Ohio State Buckeyes and Philadelphia Eagles both won football championships at the end of the 2024 season and failed in their attempts to repeat this season. On this episode of The Bill and Doug Show, Bill Landis and Doug Lesmerises look at the Super Bowl champs for some advice that could apply to the Buckeyes.
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- [00:00]
Gold Belly Announcer
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- [00:32]
Doug Lamrese
Why?
- [00:32]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
What's happening?
- [00:33]
Gold Belly Announcer
The Walmart wellness event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.
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Walmart Wellness Promoter
All that at Walmart.
- [00:38]
GoFundMe Announcer
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- [00:42]
Gold Belly Announcer
And wellness needs at Walmart?
- [00:43]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
Check the calendar. Saturday, January 24th.
- [00:45]
Bill Landis
Walmart wellness event. You knew?
- [00:48]
Walmart Wellness Promoter
I knew. Check in on your health at the same place you already shop. Visit Walmart Saturday, January 24th for our semi annual wellness event, Flu Shot. Subject to availability and applicable state law. Age restrictions apply. Free samples while supplies last.
- [00:59]
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- [02:05]
Doug Lamrese
Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lamrese and Bill Landis. We're just doing a little something because we think it's interesting. We're going to talk about Ohio State football and we're going to talk about another team that plays football, but doesn't play college football. Bill Landis. But it is a team that you.
- [02:22]
Bill Landis
Know a Lot about that would be the Philadelphia Eagles. Yes.
- [02:27]
Doug Lamrese
And. And we are not doing this just because you are Philly Billy who covers Ohio State, but you certainly know Ohio State football inside and out. And then you are. How would you describe yourself as a Philadelphia Eagles fan?
- [02:41]
Bill Landis
Yeah, like, pretty big fan. Like, I don't. Didn't ruin my life that they lost their playoff game, but, you know, I was pretty bummed that they lost. I, I am. Yeah, I get, I get a little fired up about it sometimes for sure.
- [02:56]
Doug Lamrese
But, but you are, you are. You know them. You know that team well. You know their players, their strategy, their coaches, their expectations. You have a handle on them as, as. As any invested fan does on any team. And the reason we want to talk about this is because the Ohio State Buckeyes and the Philadelphia Eagles won their respective championships a season ago, and now they are both out and they are both lost. Both made the playoff. Both lost earlier than. Than anticipated. Ohio State, of course, losing to Miami and the Eagles losing to the San Francisco 49ers. But there are, There are some similarities there. And I think the conversation that we can have is expectations. When you are a championship team and you're trying to repeat, certainly that was on the table for the Eagles this year. And then also, if there are similar things that maybe held these two teams back, are they reasonable things that held them back? The, the differences and the similarities between maybe a style and an approach to a team that is trying to repeat, and there just are a couple things between the Birds and the Buckeyes that struck your fancy?
- [04:08]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I, I felt this for a while, actually. It kind of like all came together as I was watching the Eagles lose that game on Sunday. Like, sort of crystallized for me. But, but like throughout the course of, of the Eagle season, as I was covering the Ohio State season and as we've talked with Ohio State fans about the things about this team that made them excited and the things about this team that maybe made them a little worried as Ohio State tried to chase a national championship. I at times felt like I was listening to myself a little bit because I definitely had similar thoughts about the way the Eagles were trying to go about repeating as champions. And I, I do think there are some parallels that are worth diving into that sort of got both chases off track that, you know, primarily for people watching this, that Ohio State can, Can learn from moving forward. Yeah.
- [05:05]
Doug Lamrese
Let's start. So there's a couple similarities that I think are worth talking about. One is that both the Eagles and the Buckeyes promoted offensive coordinators for the 2025 season from within. We've had this conversation about Brian Hartline and Ohio State and I think we concluded in the end that it kind of what Ryan Day had to do because Brian Hartline was so good at his previous job and so important to Ohio State and you did not want to risk losing him. And it sort of was his turn and I don't know if he would have left for sure if Ryan Day had not made him the play caller. But I think you and I had some apprehension about Ohio State and Ryan Day doing that with Brian Hartline.
- [05:53]
Bill Landis
Yeah, okay.
- [05:55]
Doug Lamrese
I definitely did. But I think we understand you credit.
- [05:58]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah.
- [05:59]
Doug Lamrese
The situation around it. I think we understood why it happened because there just were circumstances that this guy's kind of earned the promotion and I think you have to see how it's going to go. Is that a fair assessment of how we viewed Brian Hartline in Ohio State?
- [06:13]
Bill Landis
Yes, I think the difference between you and I at the time that the hire was made, I was sort of just like, well, if this goes wrong, at least Ryan or at least Ryan Day is there as kind of the backstop. But yeah, I think it may was certainly easy to wrap your mind around why it happened. Not that Brian Hartline was like the ideal candidate or that Ohio State could have potentially not done better. But I think everybody sort of got why it happened.
- [06:38]
Doug Lamrese
Okay. And so that happened for Ohio State. What happened with the Eagles? It's a similar promotion from within, but does it just stand as sort of another cautionary tale of promoting from within if maybe the guy hasn't really been in that spot before for this is obviously be a mostly Ohio State audience explain what the Eagles did and how it was maybe similar or dissimilar to Ohio State and Heartline.
- [07:03]
Bill Landis
Yeah. So the. The Eagles coming off of their super bowl lost. Why am I forgetting his name? Kellen Moore forgot his name for a second. Kellen Moore to be to a head coaching job and rather than go outside and replace him and like it's a. It's a different scenario for the Eagles too because the Eagles had a good coordinator in Shane Steichen, lost him to a head coaching job, promoted from within. It was awful. In the 2023 season, fired that guy, went outside again. It was great. They won the super bowl, lost that guy promoted from within again and it was awful. So like they're on like kind of this cycle that Ohio State is not quite on, but when. When the Eagles needed a new offensive coordinator coming into this season they elevated Kevin Petullo, who was the passing game specialist and associate head coach for the Eagles and he's basically just kind of been the head coach's right hand man for a while. Nick Sirianni's right hand man for a while. They have been working together at the Colts and then at the Eagles for eight years, which is as long as Ryan Day and Brian Hartline work together at Ohio State with Heartland Elise's as a full time position coach. So the timelines are parallel, I think, I think there's less of like there's an element for the Eagles of like the head coach kind of promoted his buddy that I don't think exists with Ohio State and Ryan promoting Brian Hartline. But it was very much sort of like the, the obvious guy in the building to promote to play caller if you were going to go about it that way.
- [08:34]
Doug Lamrese
Okay, let's throw in a possible other similarity here before we draw a conclusion. Ohio State and the Eagles both had an outstanding pair of wide receivers in Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and an AJ Brown and Devonte Smith. And I let me, let me ask if both these things were maybe true. Is there some belief of man like and plus you had quarterbacks that you believed in very different. Jalen Hurts as a veteran and Julian Santa as a first year starter. But like okay, we think we're going to have quarterbacks who can run this offense. Our receivers are excellent and so we believe in our talent offensively and maybe we don't need the greatest schemer of all time to figure out how to keep doing what we did before, which is throw the ball to our very talented guys. And if we're keeping it in house, we're going to run the same system like the, the templates there and the talent is there. And a belief in the passing game talent maybe in some way contributed to the idea of we're okay promoting from within because we don't have to find ways to move the ball. It's going to be right in front of us. But then in the end, as in Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith got the ball a ton. But in the end, the way Ohio State went out being unable to block Miami and then just not taking advantage of situations, you really didn't put yourself in a position with Ohio State of allowing Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate to win you the games that you have to win. Even though like Jeremiah Smith had a great game against Indiana, but still it's like okay, did, did they get you over the top in the End. Were they given the opportunity to be the difference makers to get you over the top? Did you feel the same thing with the Eagles? And do you think there are parallels there with not only promoting the oc, but the receiver talent and what it meant?
- [10:22]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think. I think there's an element of we're so talented on offense that it would be difficult for anyone to screw this up. So, like, let's. Let's fall back on that. And even if we're having a guy call plays for the first time, it. Not. The calling plays is easy, but there should be, like, a degree of difficulty that's lessened, you know, quite a bit by. By the talent advantages you have. And I think that was certainly true with Ohio State and its receivers.
- [10:52]
Doug Lamrese
And.
- [10:52]
Bill Landis
And I think, like, yeah, I think it's true with Eagles and their receivers. Like, you just look at. I guess you don't look at Jalen Hurts quite this way. But. But I think you could look at, like, Devonte Smith and A.J. brown in the very same way. You'd look at Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and just say, like, well, that team should have, like, the best, most explosive passing offense in the league because of the personnel, the personnel that they have. And while, like, all four receivers we're talking about were certainly productive, I would. I would think that fan bases of both teams would say, like, yeah, but like, it still felt like something wasn't. Wasn't missing and like, it's not the player's fault really. Although people may be mad at A.J. brown for dropping passes on Sunday, but I think it's more of like, the offense sort of let them down or to your point, the offense didn't quite maximize what was on hand when it should have been like, an incredible advantage for the offense.
- [11:43]
Doug Lamrese
I was listening to an NFL podcast just like, run through the Niners Eagles game and again, having the experience that you were talking about of. They're talking about one of these two teams, but it feels like it applies to the other of the two teams. And they were just saying, like, you know, they played slow, they didn't really design anything special. There were no trick plays. They kind of just did the same thing over and over again. And it was like, are they talking about Ohio State? Are they talking about the Eagles? I. I think maybe the thing that is the most unifying thing about Ohio State and the Eagles and. And again, I think you'd understand it, and I don't even know if you could blame them for it is having such a belief in their offensive Players that they just sort of assumed it would happen. The offensive players are good enough. The play caller, like, it'll be fine. We don't necessarily have to go outside of ourselves and look for trick plays or really like different kind of things to do because we'll just get the ball to those guys and they're great. Our guys are better than your guys. And we have had a little bit of that conversation with Ohio State when we talk about the Ohio State Michigan game. And like Michigan almost always has a trick play. And it's like we always say the Ohio State trick play is throw it to our more talented receivers. Carnell Tate is the trick. And, and you understand it on some level, but then when you fall short of maybe what your talent told you you could do or what your own expectations, what your fans expectations were, you look back and say, what did you do extra to get there? And maybe the belief is we don't have to do anything extra because our guys are so good.
- [13:25]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [13:25]
Doug Lamrese
Is that unifying?
- [13:27]
Bill Landis
I think it is unifying. And like, I think you could even pull back from like the, whatever, the trick play idea because you can be creative offensively without, you know, doing a double reverse past flea flicker kind of kind of thing. Right. But I, I think maybe in, in both cases there was, there was. I thought that like Ohio State in 2024 and won a national championship had Chip Kelly's offensive coordinator and Brian Hartline was just sort of like living in that. Right. Like, he was a key part of the offensive plan. He was absorbing things from Chip, he was absorbing things from Ryan Day. And there would be some level of continuity with that, like once he ascended the play caller. Both, both just sort of like in the capacity to do the job, but also I think in some of the creativity that Chip helped bring to the board for Ohio State. And I think the same thing probably happened for the Eagles, like Kellen Moore, very good at his job, sort of lays the foundation. And you have a guy in, Kevin Petullo who was there like working alongside of him. Well, it's just like, well, we'll just keep doing that stuff with a different guy calling the plays. And it's like, well, maybe the guy who was doing it was like a key element of it.
- [14:31]
Doug Lamrese
Right.
- [14:31]
Bill Landis
Like, you can't just assume that everything is going to sort of pick up where. Where it left off once you put a new person in that position. And I do think both teams kind of suffered from making that assumption. Now, the difference with the Eagles or difference with Ohio State is that Ryan Day. Ryan Day has the background of like offensive play caller and like the offense is still very much sort of created according to to his image. Like the Nick Sirianni, like has been a coordinator, but he was never a play caller. And I don't think anyone like thinks that he's just sort of offensive genius. He's more of a culture guy. But either way, I do think there were just some wrong assumptions made about the ability to keep like schematic continuity and like sort of a creative continuity with different guys calling the shots who had never done it before.
- [15:20]
Gold Belly Announcer
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- [15:48]
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- [16:50]
Doug Lamrese
Is it not? Do they both play slow? I'm looking at the Eagles.
- [16:53]
Bill Landis
They both play really slow. Yeah.
- [16:55]
Doug Lamrese
Seconds per play. The Eagles were 27th out of 32 teams. We know Ohio State was, was near the bottom. But as you pointed out, this is the hard part of this. As you pointed out, I think very astutely, during the season, during college season, other Good teams were playing slow this year that, that maybe it was just a trend in college football. Maybe it was some schools seeing what Ohio State did in 2024 and saying that's not a bad idea. You look at some of these other teams that played slow. Buffalo played slow, New England played slow, Tampa played slow. Like it's, it's not just like, oh, the worst teams play slow. Right. But, but it is there something that the Eagles and the Buckeyes were similar in having offensive talent, having offensive passing game talent, but then playing slow, which feels like maybe not taking advantage of that offensive. Because maybe you would say if you're a run the ball and defense first team, then you do, you do want to shorten the game. Right. And we, we know the Ohio State ideas. Ryan Day talking about wanting to keep guys healthy and fresh and play them fewer snapshots. But I think would you look back on both these seasons and find a commonality that, that held them both back in some way?
- [18:08]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out. Oh, here it is. Yeah. So the problem with both teams is that they were slow and not explosive.
- [18:20]
Doug Lamrese
Okay.
- [18:20]
Bill Landis
So like. Oh yeah. And who. Someone mentioned that. I think it was a Dan or I can't remember if it was Dan or Pat on around the shoe on Monday mentioned the idea of one way to increase the plays for Ohio State is not necessarily playing faster, but being more explosive. Like every, every time they scored it was a, had to be a 10 play drive. They were, they didn't have the two play touchdown drives and that kind of stuff or like very rarely did they have them. So I'm seeing something here. The Eagles 5% explosive play rate was 6th worst in the league this season coming off of a year where they were tied for the seventh most. So they were super explosive when they won the Super Bowl. Not explosive at all when, when they didn't win it this year. And I think Ohio State, Ohio State was not super explosive last year, but it was more explosive last year than it was this year. It was, it was absolutely explosive in those first two playoff games. And it won. Yes. Against Tennessee. Against Tennessee and Oregon. So that's like the biggest thing I think for, for both these, like Ohio State was highly efficient. Ohio State had one of the more efficient offenses in the country. Just could not, could not string the big plays together. And I think by and large they were, they were far more efficient than the Eagles. I think the Eagles had the most three and outs in the league this year. So like that's, that's A key difference between these two. But. But I think the. The idea sort of at the heart of it remains the same. It's that they were both sort of plotting offenses and couldn't like, balance that out with being explosive.
- [19:46]
Doug Lamrese
Do you think. Do you think both these teams had the ability to be explosive?
- [19:53]
Bill Landis
Definitely, yeah. I think Ohio State was searching all year to be explosive via the run, and I think a lot of that was just sort of probably held back by that. They didn't. Didn't quite have the running back for it. And I think maybe Bo Jackson down the line can be, but he just wasn't quite that this year. Like the guy who can really hit the home run. And for the Eagles, the Eagles have Saquon Barkley, like, he can hit the home run, but I like their run blocking was just not as good this year. And their run game, I think schematically got a little stale too. So, like that they were both searching for explosive runs in that way and then both, like, absolutely capable of hitting the explosive pass. I think, like, what Jalen Hurts does best is throw the ball downfield and certainly Devonte Smith and A.J. brown can go get it. And while Julian Saying did not throw the ball down the field a ton when he did usually went pretty well, especially when he threw the Cardinal. Tate so talked about that all year. Yeah. Yeah, they were. They were able to hit that. I think. I don't want to. Like, there's a time that I want to ask Ryan Day about this, that the thing that I do think was really lacking in Ohio State's offense this year was the short pass that became explosive.
- [21:06]
Doug Lamrese
Right. If.
- [21:06]
Bill Landis
If they wanted to hit an explosive, they almost had to throw it 40 yards down the field. But remember, some of Ryan Day's best offenses, throw a little bubble to Paris Campbell and watch them go right.
- [21:18]
Doug Lamrese
Throw.
- [21:18]
Bill Landis
Throw a perimeter, A perimeter pass that turns into an explosive gain or throw a slant somebody or throw us like a middle screen to somebody and it turns into an explosive play. And I, I do think they got to find ways to get back to that. And I think like the. The Eagles were kind of searching for that too. They were in a very similar position. It was just like if they weren't throwing the ball already 40 yards down the field to either of those receivers or they just were not being explosive otherwise.
- [21:40]
Doug Lamrese
So there's a. There's a conclusion that I want to ask about and, and potentially draw here at the end, but let's do a couple. Couple more comparison points that you had. You had mentioned Kicking games, field goal kickers that maybe you felt like you couldn't 100% rely on.
- [21:54]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think Ohio State fans are familiar with the Jaden fielding experience. We don't have to relive that one necessarily, but. But clearly not reliable. And then Eagles have Jake Elliott who for a stretch was like the best kicker in the league and actually wasn't great last year when they did win the super bowl and then got even worse this year making. He had like a three year stretch where he's making like 90% of his kicks. In the last two years he's been in the 70s and this year was like the low 70s and like he missed an extra point on Sunday. He's missed a couple of extra points this year. He just went. And we've talked all the time about kickers, even at the pro level. Lose it and. And Jake Elliott like very much has lost it the last two years. So the Eagles didn't really have a reliable kicker similar to Ohio State.
- [22:41]
Doug Lamrese
And then we've established that these teams invest. You said the Eagles spend as much money as much of their salary cap on.
- [22:52]
Bill Landis
I, I believe I was listening to the Ringer football show or not the ringer at the Athletic football show and Robert Mays said that the Eagles have spent the most money on their offensive person. More, more, more money on their offensive personnel than any other team in the league.
- [23:06]
Doug Lamrese
Okay. And we know how much Ohio State in the nil world. Nil world values their big time receivers.
- [23:13]
Bill Landis
Their quarterback, their passing game.
- [23:15]
Doug Lamrese
They certainly do invest in that. But both these teams established defensive identities this year. Right. Great defenses on both sides of the ball, which while I, which I think like prevents certainly it's not like, it's not like there was panic mode all year. More so with the Eagles and with the Buckeyes. But they're winning. It's like, man, these offenses are capable. The talent is there to be explosive. And by the way, in the meantime, we'll put this defense up against anybody else in the country. And I think I would certainly. Didn't you feel like Ohio State fans felt that this year that whatever is happening, this defense for the Buckeyes is a foundation in a world where their head coach is an offensive guy. But yet they are kind of a deep. They are not kind of. They are a defense. First team in 2025 that was absolutely Ohio State, right?
- [24:05]
Bill Landis
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
- [24:07]
Doug Lamrese
Was that the Eagles. Would you say the Eagles were defense first in 2025?
- [24:10]
Bill Landis
Yeah. Took some time to evolve to that. I think like they Were Ohio State. Was that from the jump? And the Eagles kind of grew into that. But I think by the end of the year, everyone was pretty confident in their defense being able to take them pretty far as long as the offense could do like kind of the bare minimum.
- [24:27]
Doug Lamrese
Okay. So I think we've established a, a raft of commonalities here. Is there anything like. In terms of. There's another thing that they had in common that we haven't brought up yet.
- [24:40]
Bill Landis
I think like just maybe going back to the offensive side. I do think they're like pretty specific styles of quarterback. Very different. Jalen Hurts and Julian saying. But I, I think it's mostly for Julian because. Because he's young, a quarterback skill set that I think you do need to tailor the offense to a little bit. And I'm, I'm not sure that either team like quite nailed that.
- [25:07]
Doug Lamrese
Okay. And, and do you feel like again, it's been one of the discussion points, especially later in the season with Julian Sam, when it kind of was go time. Jalen hurts at time maybe not taking advantage of what actually was there. Then if we're questioning the offensive play caller or the offensive game plan, it's like, well, actually maybe there was some stuff there that the quarterback didn't take advantage of.
- [25:26]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think a lot of Jalen Hurts discourse this year about like how much of it is on him, how much of it is on the play caller. And I think like we were. We never really got to that point with Julian probably until the Miami game and, and even when we got there. I don't think it's quite as pronounced as it was with. With. With Jalen Hurts. But I, I do think there's sort of like for as easy as it is to point the finger at the like the coordinator situation and the play calling situation, the. The quarterback does have to shoulder some of the blame. I think just with like not maybe maximizing all the opportunities that were there.
- [26:02]
Doug Lamrese
Okay, I think that's right. And again, it's one of those things you. The, the conversation would be so different around Julian saying because he's young, he's never done this before. Of course, I think maybe in the moment maybe similar things were happening. It's just Jalen Hurst is much more on the hook for it than Julian saying is. But the bottom line is if you're asking the offense to work, especially at peak explosiveness, it's like, well, I mean if you would have taken that, it would have been an explosive. If you would have taken that. Where you wind up Having a belief that, man, this offense wasn't explosive enough, but maybe you could go to the all 22 of both teams and say, well, it's not that they're not drawing it up or not that guys aren't getting open at times, it's that they're. They're not taking what might be there.
- [26:42]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think that's right.
- [26:44]
Doug Lamrese
Okay, so is this the conclusion? And I think the point of this exercise is not to just let Philly Billy cook, although that is worthwhile in and of itself, but it is to talk about this for Ohio State fans and is it, is this something that can happen to championship teams? And the thing that I would put out is you are a championship team and you justifiably have the utmost belief in what you are and what you can do and what you have and what you have done. And then there are maybe a couple key things that change primarily here for both teams, because it's primarily an offensive conversation. The play caller changes and you wind up with inexperienced people in a play caller role. But yet you have enough of a foundation with your talent and your players to say, that's what we're banking on. And we. It. It's. I don't think it's complacency and it is. I actually think it comes from a good place.
- [27:48]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [27:49]
Doug Lamrese
It comes from believing in your guys. It's not that you're lazy. It's not that you're sluggish and taking things for granted and drinking pina coladas on the beach instead of doing your job. It's that maybe you think to yourself, we don't necessarily have to go searching for something new because the thing we just did won it, won it all. And the guys who did that are back. Jeremiah Smith, A.J. brown, Devonte Smith, like Carnell Tate elevates and is immediately ready for it. Like, enough of that, right?
- [28:22]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [28:23]
Doug Lamrese
And then maybe that belief, while everybody else is like, we got to be better, we got to be better. And I, I actually, I don't think this is much sometimes. I mean, this is like. I think what happened with Ohio State in 2014 into 2015 is a little bit more of a mental, emotional kind of like a bunch of veteran guys and like where he was hungry and that kind of thing. I think this is more attitude as it affects game plan and attitude as an effect scheme as opposed to attitude as it then affects the team emotionally. But did Ohio State and the Eagles believe in their offensive players so much that they didn't really pushed the envelope in Trying to scheme it up offensively and then in the end with new play callers that caught up with them.
- [29:12]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think so. I, I think like, my sort of shortened piece of advice for both would just be like, don't assume anything, right? Like, it's good, it's good to have the belief sort of like in your core values and your culture or whatever. Like, I think, I think for both those, Both teams, like, that's pretty strong, but you can't, can't really rest on your laurels. I think in really, in any sport, Like, I think that the best championship teams keep evolving even when they win. And I don't know, particularly on offense, that either team did that. And the result was like, Ohio State's offense was still good, but not quite where it needed to be. The Eagles offense is like, actually like, pretty bad.
- [30:02]
Doug Lamrese
So.
- [30:02]
Bill Landis
So, like, they're not exactly the same thing. But I, I think the end result was, was just not being quite what they needed to be because of. Again, like, not. I don't think it was misguided or like, for. You said, like, came from like, the wrong place necessarily. I just think it's kind of a lesson for, for any team that's trying to defend a championship is like, you still got to stay on your toes a little bit. And I'm reminded, like, what the. Ryan Day said something this season that, like, when you say, like, the second you think you got it, you're gonna get it or something like that, like, there's just this idea that it's just about complacency. And again, I don't, I don't. I don't really think that's what it was because complacency is pejorative. But there, there was probably just a little bit too much faith in what was on hand. And I think it would serve anybody to be a little more forward thinking and open to change or open to even the slightest bit of evolution, even coming off of a very successful season.
- [31:05]
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- [32:36]
Doug Lamrese
And it's, it's just really hard to promote play callers internally who haven't done it before. And I think that is just realistic and it is something that as we sit here and the point of this is, is to inform a college football discussion. We're looking at Oregon next year. Oregon lost both coordinators. Tosh Lapoy, the defensive coordinator is going to be the head coach at Cal. But that's Dan Lanning, right, is a defensive guy but they lose. Will Stein, the offensive coordinator be the head coach at Kentucky and they're going to promote from within with Drew Mering had been on the staff at Oregon and actually is, is 10 years from removed from being like a 28 year old offensive coordinator under Chris Ash at Rutgers and it did not go well. And then he has sort of been cycling back up the coaching ranks. He was at Ohio State and then I right went with Chris Ash to Rutgers. But the bottom line, so he's not gonna be a first time play caller but he's going to be a promoted from within play caller. And they've signed Dylan Raiola and so this puts me a little on the lookout for Oregon next year. Now they aren't a championship team but they've been a very successful, high level winning program that is now promoting the offensive play caller from within. I think with the intent of kind of like keep doing what you're doing but Maybe you're going to wind up if Dante Moore goes to the NFL with a quarterback who's a little less of a fit to sort of do the things that quarterbacks have done there at Oregon. And so you're going to keep. This is. I think the bottom line is like, you try to keep doing what you're doing when actually you've lost a piece or two of what you did. And so the instinct, because if you just keep everybody, it's the exact same players and like exact same coaches. Of course you, of course you would keep doing what you're doing, but you remove a couple things and then you keep trying to do what you're doing and it's like, okay, it's not the same and you're chasing something that's not there anymore. I'm very curious how this works for Oregon. And if I were Oregon, I would look at Ohio State and the Eagles and just maybe check yourself and make sure that you don't settle for the same in a world when something's actually changed. Because I think that's the most dangerous part of this.
- [34:49]
Bill Landis
I do. Yeah. That's funny. You use the word there. Chase. Chasing, like, it reminded me like what Brian Hartline said, like a cotton ball media day when you were talking to him, right. Like he wanted to get down on the field and Ryan Day was going to be back involved with play calling. And Brian Hartline said, like, we're thinking about like the dynamic we had in the postseason last year when it was Chip and Ryan and me and we're chasing that and it's like, well, you're never going to find it because Chip's not here, right. And it doesn't have to be Chip, but it's like the idea of Chip, right. And like for the Eagles, whatever, it's the idea of Kellen Moore, you just like you. You have to understand what it means to pull a person like that out of the operation and things I think that you can just kind of pick right back up is just a little, A little short sighted. Like on the one hand, like, it's like, it's confident. You're like ultra confident in your abilities and what you have in place. Like you like, I, I get that, but I just like, I, I think more often than not that's going to lead you astray. It's not to say they can't ever work, but I do think more often than not, it's. It's destined probably not to.
- [35:51]
Doug Lamrese
So the Eagles bringing back that guy or is he is he done that O.C.
- [35:54]
Bill Landis
No, I chef Schefter said they're going to go get I think the word was like proven offensive mind to be the new corrector.
- [36:03]
Doug Lamrese
And we are anticipating waiting on Ohio State potentially making an offensive coordinator higher for that same kind of thing. Would your advice to both these teams be use this change as an opportunity to reevaluate, refresh. Don't take anything for granted. Yes, there is plenty of success in your recent past for this offensive style with these players. But do not take it for granted and use this change that is being forced upon you or by choice. But like it there needs to be change but then make it real change. And it's not tear it down and come in with an entire new system. But it, but it might be time to turn over some of the stuff that you've been doing for a while.
- [36:52]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think so. And I like for, for the Eagles like sort of the that the, the proof of that already exists. Like they they had two the year they went to the super bowl and lost, they lost both their coordinators that had coaching jobs. They were really good that year and then they replaced them both with in house promotions and it was awful. It was actually Matt Patricia ended up being the Eagles defensive coordinator at the end of the 2023 season because it was so bad. Like he was just sort of on staff as an analyst and they had to fire the coordinator and then they went outside again and brought in Vic Fangio and Kellen Moore and won a Super bowl and still have Fangio but then try to replace more with an in house guy. But like the the proof is in the pudding of what it means for the Eagles to go outside and bring in fresh ideas. And and Ryan Day is still like early in this process on the offensive side of the ball. Like Chip was his first outside Chip was his first like person calling place who you know, who wasn't Ryan Day. And it worked great. And then after that working great, forced to make another decision, he went inside and it didn't work. And I would hope that there is a lesson there. Again, not to say that Ryan Day shouldn't ever promote from within again but you know, small sample size, it seems like maybe going outside and bringing in a guy who can refresh some things and sort of run that side of the ball and allow Ryan Day to be the driver of the culture and the CEO of the program is what works best for Ohio State.
- [38:16]
Doug Lamrese
And you Nick Sirianni is the head coach of the Eagles and you would say that you love Nick Sirianni. Is that fair to say?
- [38:23]
Bill Landis
No. You want to go another half hour?
- [38:26]
Doug Lamrese
So, but here's my question, because you had brought up, you said you heard someone else say this, that for someone like Nick Sirianni in the NFL, if you need to bring in like a head coach of the offense and a head coach of the defense, then what are you the head coach of? And I do think there's an important distinction here and I want to make sure we get your thoughts on this. I think that's a valid thing to say in the NFL, because like, in the NFL, if you're the head coach, you have a whole gm, right? You have someone who's handling the salary cap. You just report to your owner. You're not trying to fundraise. Right. Like, you're not dealing with boosters and, and, and you're not dealing with a changing landscape of rules. And like, you don't even. So if you're a head coach in the NFL, I actually think, for instance, if Ryan Day was a head coach in the NFL, if he, I think he probably should be the offensive play caller, sure, there are plenty of head coaches. It's because you, it's like, what else, like, what else are you going to do? And you're not trying to like, make sure that 18 and 19 year olds are in a good headspace. Right. You have millionaires who are reporting to their job and culture matters, of course, but it's not the same as trying to build up a culture among teenagers.
- [39:28]
Bill Landis
No.
- [39:29]
Doug Lamrese
And then balancing this world will now some of them, now they're getting paid, but now what is it? Like these other guys in the NFL, you're at work. So I do think, like that is, I think, a, an interesting way you phrase that about Nick Sirianni, that's like, what are you doing? But I do think Ryan, Ryan Day's job is harder than Nick Sirianni's job. Is that true?
- [39:52]
Bill Landis
Yeah, it'd be like Ryan Day is like the head coach, like basically the head personnel guy and like the team president. Like all these things sort of fall under the purview of head college football coach. And maybe one day they won't, but for now they still do.
- [40:09]
Doug Lamrese
Right.
- [40:10]
Bill Landis
And like Nick Sirianni is just, yeah, he's, he's leading the, the football on field football product and that's kind of it. And like the college coaches has far more on his plate than that. Yes.
- [40:24]
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- [40:53]
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- [40:57]
Doug Lamrese
Why?
- [40:57]
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- [40:58]
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- [41:02]
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- [41:10]
Bill Landis
Walmart wellness event. You knew.
- [41:13]
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- [41:26]
Doug Lamrese
So I do think it's probably even more important than for Ryan Day to maybe get. Think about that offensive refresh. Think about having somebody else coming from the outside to help and to have another voice because he's got a million other things to do while Nick Sirianni is just running around picking out new sweatshirts to wear. And like you're wondering why that has a job. So.
- [41:46]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah, I would not, out of respect for Ryan Day, I would not compare the two.
- [41:52]
Doug Lamrese
Yeah, but, but like, in the end, do you think both, both of these football teams are in similar places now? They, they are still the defending champs. They're out now. Out, short of expectation. Not a disastrous year. Not a disastrous year. They both made the play like, again, they were in it. And along the way you thought they had a pretty good chance still, but now they fell short. And so it's not panic mode. But if they don't take the opportunity to try to.
- [42:23]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [42:23]
Doug Lamrese
Do a little something, it's going to be a missed opportunity.
- [42:26]
Bill Landis
Absolutely. Yeah. And they'll both come back next year with among the most talented rosters in the sport, with every chance in the world of chasing a championship again, as long as they take the lessons learned from this season and apply them correctly.
- [42:40]
Doug Lamrese
And is there a little bit, Is this just a little bit of. We like adding context to what happens at Ohio State. And I do think, as always, Ohio State's best context is itself, is Its own standard is its recent history. And then you certainly have other programs in college football with who you compare Ohio State to, whether it's Georgia, whether it's Notre Dame, whether it's Texas, whether it used to be Alabama, like those kind of things, those are all reasonable comparisons. And now Indiana and Oregon. Absolutely. How you build a roster, what you prioritize, what your resources are, all those things. But I do think, I hope it's a little instructive of comparing Ohio State to another champion, because that's another context. Champions, how are the champs doing? And it's hard to repeat and I think, I don't know that it's happening a ton. But like the Oklahoma City Thunder are like in a little bit of a weird stretch right now and they kind of are, they are doing what they do. But I think now some people are being like, well, like they always did this and they're a defensive, they have a defensive identity. But now people wondering like, do they not have enough shooting? And somebody kind of figured out like Victor Wembanyama is to the Oklahoma City Thunder as Kurt Signetti and Fernando Mendoza are to the Ohio State Buckeyes. Right. I mean like we, we can, we can play this game if we want to. Right? Like there's, there's a little bit of like, there's something new out there that is now in your way, champ. It's like right down the road and you've never really seen it before. And whether it's a 7 foot 6 Frenchman or a 64 year old guy from Pittsburgh, you've never seen this before and it's a pain in your butt and it's not going away. So what you did before to win might not exactly work right now. How about that? Take that, Joel Klatt. Is there another show out there comparing Victor Wembanyama and Kurt Signetti?
- [44:32]
Bill Landis
I don't think so. No. I, I maybe I'm just saying it looks like the dot the Dodgers are back to back World Series champs and the Florida Panthers have won like, yeah, two in a row as well. So maybe those are the teams that everybody needs to be studying.
- [44:48]
Doug Lamrese
But also it's like if, if Ohio State could just be the Dodgers, it'd be like if Cody Campbell and Mark Cuban and Phil Knight were all Ohio State alumni. And Ohio State's nil was just like $300 million. And then also they found a quarterback in Japan and it was like, oh.
- [45:05]
Bill Landis
We got this guy. Yeah.
- [45:10]
Doug Lamrese
We found the Red Grange of the modern era in Japan. And then Mark Cuban Phil Knight and Cody Campbell got a slush fund together, and we're paying him $20 million to play safety and quarterback at Ohio State. And it's awesome. But I, like, I do think. I do think comparing yourself to champs can be valuable, especially in the context of when a champ is not repeated and when a champ has not done it again. And it's like, you had the ability to do it, so why didn't you? And actually, I think you can look around and be like, oh, because sometimes that's what happens to champs. And a little bit of getting high on your own supply. But it's such a good supply. Why wouldn't you? Right?
- [45:56]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [45:56]
Doug Lamrese
Like, too much belief in yourself. That's a hell of a way to go down. That's how I'm going down when this is all over for me. That's how it's ending.
- [46:05]
Bill Landis
It's pro. I mean, it probably is.
- [46:06]
Doug Lamrese
How. How.
- [46:07]
Bill Landis
Yeah, if you're gonna. If you're gonna go down, go that. Go down that way.
- [46:09]
Doug Lamrese
But the.
- [46:10]
Bill Landis
I guess the good news for both. Both teams is that they. They have a very good chance of getting back up. So.
- [46:17]
Doug Lamrese
Yeah.
- [46:18]
Bill Landis
But. Yeah. Yeah, don't get. Don't. No, we've got. Don't get too high on your own supply. I think is. Is where we.
- [46:24]
Doug Lamrese
Okay. That is the only Ohio State Philadelphia Eagles podcast that you will listen to this week. We appreciate you guys for being here. Like, subscribe, tell a friend, hit the little YouTube bell button to make sure you get the notifications. Is that the thing you hit so you make sure you don't miss anything that we're dropping here on the YouTube feed. Make sure you get notified, make sure you're subscribed on your favorite podcast platform so that you don't miss anything that we're dropping in there. And then, of course, you can come over. We have a big chat going on every day over on our substack where we're talking about what's happening with Ohio State. We're writing about things as they happen. We're doing two extra podcasts shows a week over there, usually on Wednesdays and Sundays. That's only for substack subscribers. So if you're here and you like what we're doing here, but you just want a little more of it, I think it's pretty reasonable. It's a pretty reasonable price to go over there and treat yourself to a little Philly Billy and French Vanilli. But for now, we appreciate you guys being here again. That's Bill and Doug OSU substack.com here he's Bill Landis, I'm Doug Le Maurice, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.
- [47:32]
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