Ohio State changing transfer portal strategy; Buckeyes vs. Indiana futures: Around the Shoe

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Changing Transfer Portal Strategy; Buckeyes vs. Indiana Futures

Episode Date: January 13, 2026
Host: Doug Lesmerises, Bill Landis
Guests: Patrick Murphy (247Sports/Bucknuts), Dan Hope (Eleven Warriors)
Podcast Network: Blue Wire

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Episode Overview

In this lively “Around the Shoe” segment, Doug, Bill, and their guests dig into Ohio State’s dramatic new approach to the transfer portal, the evolving philosophy behind Buckeyes roster-building, and larger questions about the cutthroat landscape of college football. They also field listener questions on quarterback Julian Sayin’s development and debate the future balance of power between Ohio State and surging Indiana. The panel combines sharp insights, anecdotal humor, and a fans-first tone, capturing the anxiety and optimism that surround one of college football’s marquee programs in a period of rapid change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ohio State’s Tumultuous Transfer Portal Season

[02:31–13:25]

• How Would You Describe Ohio State’s Portal Season?

  • Patrick Murphy: "Game changing...and a wake-up call."

    “We can’t do the same old thing and expect it to work the way it did before...I think the Buckeyes have always done a good job adjusting—maybe not as quickly as fans would like, but they get there.” (03:33)

  • Dan Hope: "Incomplete."

    “It’s too early to grade Ohio State’s transfer portal haul until we see what happens over the next couple weeks.” (04:41)

  • Bill Landis: “Punch in the face.”

    “Ohio State in real time is reckoning with the idea that they can no longer build the roster the way they thought they could—even five months ago.” (08:27)

  • Doug Lesmerises: “Kick in the groin...the oldenization of the Ohio State roster because they be getting old.” (10:21)

• What’s Different This Year?

  • Numbers of departures exploded (28 out this year vs. 12 last year).
  • Portal activity is now compressed into just over a week, delivering a “punch in the face” for fans and staff.
  • Losses of younger players to the portal signal both the changing realities of NIL and sustained pressure to field veteran starters.

• Youth vs. Experience

  • “You traded potential for production...inexperience for more snaps. And I think that’s going to keep happening.” – Doug Lesmerises (11:11)
  • Ohio State appears to be accepting the tradeoff: willing to lose high-upside underclassmen to get proven, older transfer players.

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2. What Should the Roster-Building Formula Be?

[13:25–24:12]

• Scale of High School Recruiting vs. Transfer Portal Usage

  • Dan Hope:

    “If you asked Ohio State a month ago, they’d be at like 80 (high school) on this scale,” but now closer to 50—“the sport is changing so rapidly.” (14:05)

  • Warns against total portal dependency—“If nobody’s recruiting and developing, there’s no one good to get out of the portal.” (15:31)
  • Bill Landis:

    “Maybe two-thirds high school, a third transfer moving forward...and probably a third of the guys who play important roles are from the portal.” (16:47)

  • Patrick Murphy:

    “I don’t want to see Ohio State become a full transfer portal team...there’s still too much talent in the high school ranks.” (21:43)

• Perils and Permanence of Portal Dependence

  • Once you start leaning on the portal for a third of your impact players, it may be hard to move back to a more developmental model.
  • Doug Lesmerises:

    “Can you ever get off that carousel? Once you start leaning on the portal...you either lean in—or you don’t.” (19:33)

• Notable Quote:

  "You can’t keep everybody happy and also win national championships." – Dan Hope (12:45)

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3. Losing First-Year Players: Can It Be Prevented?

[24:12–35:04]

• Ohio State Losing Seven First-Year Players in the Portal (vs. Seven in the Four Previous Years Combined)

  • Bill Landis’ Advice:

    “Play these guys more early...be purposeful about getting these guys on the field early...It’d be better for the fan base, too, to say, ‘I watched this guy play 85 snaps as a true freshman.’” (25:57)

  • Doug Lesmerises:

    “Is the idea of playing them tied to the idea of playing faster, so you have more snaps to play them?” (27:30)

  • Patrick Murphy:

    “Can you find a financial backer that is gonna pay you like Phil Knight or Mark Cuban? That’s the key right now...if you have more NIL money, you can pay more kids.” (29:08)

• Recruiting Class Size: Is 28 Too Many?

  • Bill Landis:

    “You don’t need to sign that many high school prospects if this is what the portal is going to be.” (37:11)

  • Patrick Murphy:

    “I’d pull back...maybe you go for your Jeremiah Smiths, your top quarterbacks, try and get those immediate impact guys, and then maybe fill in with Ohio guys or developmental types.” (38:09)

  • Dan Hope (counterpoint):

    “Keep signing big classes because you know you’re gonna lose guys. I think the thing that’s really going to be hard is keeping those second- and third-year guys who have typically been the core of your depth.” (39:07)

• Player Expectation Management

  • Dan Hope:

    “Very few freshmen come in thinking that way about themselves...All of these guys think they’re going to play immediately, the reality is most guys won’t, so there are going to be guys at year’s end who want an opportunity elsewhere.” (33:14)

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4. Quarterback Julian Sayin: Areas for Growth in 2026

[41:42–51:58]

• Listener Question: What’s the next development for the Heisman finalist QB?

  • Doug Lesmerises:

    “Taking those shots down the field...Make sure when there's a chance to make a play down the field, that you take the opportunity, even if it’s not a perfect situation.” (42:34)

  • Patrick Murphy:

    “Vision and anticipation...there were too many times where we’re sitting in the press box, like, ‘oh, he missed that guy’...You don't get punished for that against Purdue, but you do against Miami.” (43:45)

  • Dan Hope:

    "Become more of a threat to make plays with his legs...It's really hard to win it all without a quarterback who poses some kind of running threat." (45:27)

  • Bill Landis:

    “Play looser, play more off of instinct...sometimes the ‘take care of the ball’ mantra does slow the process. I think just embracing the playmaking elements of the position will take him a long way.” (49:02)

• Memorable Moment:

  • “I think Joe Burrow does that really well...he doesn’t run a ton but does it enough, like Dan said, to keep you honest and he doesn’t take a ton of those hits because he’s smart about how he handles it.” – Patrick Murphy (47:36)

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5. Indiana vs. Ohio State: Will Indiana Leapfrog the Buckeyes as Big Ten’s Best?

[52:31–61:59]

• Panel Ponders: What’s the percentage chance Indiana overtakes OSU as a program—not just for a season, but for 3–5 years?

  • Patrick Murphy:

    “It’s growing, but I still say 35%...The ability of the block-O to get you into any door in the country still carries more weight than the Indiana logo.” (53:30)

  • Dan Hope:

    “Long term? 5%. But over 3-5 years, maybe 20%—what Kurt Signetti’s done is fantastic, but Ohio State has been so recession proof.” (55:10)

  • Bill Landis:

    “Pretty low...It takes a whole lot to knock Ohio State from its perch. Even when Michigan State challenged, no one called them the Big Ten’s best program.” (57:37)

  • Doug Lesmerises:

    “If Indiana keeps investment high and Signetti stays...maybe 25–27%, just because the landscape is changing.” (60:58)

• Anecdote:

  • Discussion of Michigan State’s brief heyday and the hazards of “big-dog syndrome”—can a former underdog program handle success and sustain it, or do you lose your identity as you change how you win? (59:54)

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Notable Quotes & Fun Moments

• Dan Hope (on the new normal):

  “You can’t keep everybody happy and also win national championships.” (12:45)

• Bill Landis:

  “What if we made black stripes binding? Like you can’t transfer until you lose your black stripe.” (34:42)

• Doug Lesmerises, tongue-in-cheek:

  “Are we at the point Ohio State needs to throw in a couple three-and-nines to activate the billionaires? These Ohio State billionaires are spoiled.” (30:31)

• Patrick Murphy (on NIL):

  “If you have more NIL money, you can pay more kids, right?” (29:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Portal season word/summary: 03:33–12:06
• Roster building: high school vs. portal: 13:25–24:12
• Losing first-year players in the portal: 24:12–35:04
• Should OSU shrink recruiting classes? 36:23–41:42
• Julian Sayin’s development: 41:42–51:58
• Indiana vs. Ohio State as “Program”: 52:31–61:59

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Panelists’ Final Words

• Patrick Murphy: “You can find my work at 247Sports or Bucknuts. It’s been a wild time—just trying to keep up with Ohio State’s transfer portal craziness.” (61:59)
• Dan Hope: “Dan_hope on X, 11warriors.com—our transfer portal tracker is working overtime!” (62:26)
• Bill Landis: “At Bill and Doug Substack—trying to keep track of these new Buckeyes and how they might fit, even as 28 leave!” (63:04)

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Takeaways

• Ohio State has entered a period of roster tumult rarely seen in Columbus, with a significant philosophical shift toward leveraging the transfer portal for experienced players—even at the cost of losing top-rated young talent.
• The loss of first-year players is a major concern, and strategies to address it range from “play them more early” to “find more NIL money” to “sign fewer or more targeted freshmen.”
• Panelists expect Ohio State to end up aiming for about a third of key contributors to come from the portal, but much depends on future NCAA regulations and financial realities.
• Despite Indiana’s surge, the panel sees Ohio State’s institutional heft and tradition as providing substantial buffer—but they recognize the world is changing.

Episode’s Big Theme:
Ohio State is navigating a radical shift in roster-building, with new risks and opportunities—while chasing and defending elite status in a college football landscape where even perennial powers must adapt…or risk a “punch in the face.”

Transcript

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[Doug Lemarise]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. It's Monday. That means it's around the shoe. Douglas, Maurice and Bill landis joined by two esteemed members of the Ohio State media today, two returning guests, Pat Murphy of 247 Sports. Pat, thanks for your time brother.

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah, thanks for having me on again. This was fun. Last time I was on with Anders. So now I get to do it with Dan Hope, also of 11 warriors.

[Doug Lemarise]

Also of 11 warriors, the legend Dan Hope. Thank you for joining us and sharing your time, Dan.

[Dan Hope]

Sure thing. Thanks for having me.

[Doug Lemarise]

All right, so we will guess what we're gonna have most to talk about. Transport. So the transfer portal is still open as we sit here on Monday, January 11th. Players 12 who are Monday January 12th I looked at the 12 on my screen and said the number 11 Monday January 12th and we it's till Friday that the players who aren't playing in the national championship game can go in the portal. Is that right? They have until Friday to say, I'm out there, baby. So by like Friday, Ohio State fans should at least have a handle on is anyone else leaving. Now the guys who are in, you can keep signing those guys. So they maybe won't have a full handle on who's coming in. Exactly. But so far it has been a very full and active portal season for Ohio State fans. Patrick Murphy Question number one Here on Around the Shoe, we'll do five Ohio State topics. What word or phrase would you use to describe this transfer portal season for Ohio State?

[Patrick Murphy]

I think it'll depend on how we look back at this, but I think there are two that initially came to mind for me. One is, is game changing. It was in Assuming Ohio State leans more heavily into the portal than we have seen them in the past, I think that could be a game changer for how the Buckeyes just approach things and we'll get to that more in a little bit. But I also think maybe a bit of a wake up call in the sense that like, we can't do the same old thing and expect it to work the way it did before, which I think could be something this whole off season is kind of reflective of in certain aspects of, hey, you know, this has worked for Ohio State for so long or for this period of time or under this coach. But the world's changing and the sport's changing and so I think that the Buckeyes have always done a good job of adjusting. Maybe not as quickly as fans would like, but they do seem to get there. And I think this offseason and the transfer portal in particular is, is a time when you're looking at it like, well, maybe we need to be ready quicker for some of these things going forward.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, there's something you brought up, Pat, that I do want to get to. But Dan, what's your word or phrase for this?

[Dan Hope]

My word is incomplete because I think that there's certainly still major needs that Ohio State needs to fill. I mean, Ohio State has, you know, as of Monday morning, getting Terry Moore from Duke, Ohio State now has seven transfer editions. I think all seven of those players could play significant roles for Ohio State in 2026. But there's still some big holes that Ohio State has not addressed. They still do not have a single kicker on the roster for 2026. Ohio State has pursued multiple defensive ends, but has yet to actually land a defensive end. You know, it's going to be interesting to see what they do with the two safeties they've now added Earl Little, Terry Moore, I think it's possible Earl Little slots into that nickel spot. But they still need cornerback depth they get. Right now they have Jermaine Matthews, Devin Sanchez and basically nobody else who's played at the collegiate level at cornerback. So I think there are some big needs. They still want another running back, they still want some depth at quarterback, possibly another defensive tackle, you know, maybe another receiver, maybe another tight end. So there's still a lot that has to unfold here for Ohio State and I think it's too early to grade Ohio State's transfer portal hall until we see what happens over the next couple of weeks.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, they know it's, it's until Friday. They know it's only until Friday. Right. But they still, I mean that's when the guys will go in so they still have time to sign. It is like the numbers and I'm sure just to double check because Bill and I, we're over on the sub stack and we're hanging out with the folks and talking in our chat. Pat and Dan, like the fans. Okay. Are they a little like curious about what's going on? Everybody okay over there? Curious. It's the right word.

[Bill Landis]

Okay.

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah. I think the last couple of days and landing, you know, the two defensive backs Dan mentioned has calmed things a little bit. Like, hey, these guys are active, they are doing things. But. But yeah, I think it's again, sort of a wake up call to fans too, that like this, the way you built a roster before and the way you've been able to retain these younger players, I'm sure you guys have all talked about this on, on your various platforms. It just isn't, isn't the case anymore. It's going to be different, it's going to look different each offseason. And Doug, you and I were talking before the show started. I think maybe we missed some of this last year as, as media members and the Ohio State fan base because Ohio State was playing actual football this time of year and so they weren't as portal needy as they are right now and having as many guys jump in. Plus it was spread out, right? Like we saw some guys do it before the playoff run. We saw some guys do it in the middle of the playoff run and some guys afterwards. So I think now you're seeing it all happen over the course of what, like a week, week and a half. And then Ohio State as they have been, have been patient to find the right guys. And as a fan of other sports, I understand it you want your team out there making all this news and being exciting. Right. So I understand some of the panic, but I think it is starting to subside a little.

[Doug Lemarise]

I think it was. So as Dan mentioned, as we record this On Monday morning, seven transfers in for Ohio State, 28 scholarship transfers out. I do think, do think there's probably three things combining to make this transfer portal season especially mind blowing for Ohio State fans. One is a year ago they were the national championship game. Exactly what you said, Patrick. And like this, like it wasn't on your radar as much. Right. Two is that Ohio State still still lost 12 scholarship guys in the transfer portal last off season. They lost 28 this year. So the numbers have just gone up. I think part of their previous retention has added to more guys leaving now. And then the third thing is now there's one window. So the stuff that was spread out over winter and spring maybe last year is happening in a very compressed area. So last year, distracted by the national championship, you just did retain more because that still was happening and it was spread out more. And now it's just a punch in the face for 11 days. Bill Landis. Right, sorry. Ohio State fans be okay though. It'll be okay.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. My phrase is punch in the face. No, I think I would echo a lot of what's already been said. Right. I do think this is transformational. Like I think Ohio State sort of in real time is, is reckoning with the, the idea that they can no longer build the roster the way they thought they could. Like five months ago we were talking with Ryan Day, early December, right. About like, hey, you signed this big high school class. That's neat and interesting. Why do you think you guys went about doing it that way? And he said, well, we're just not sure what we're going to be able to do in the portal because we think we're going to win a national championship or at least compete for one. It also has me thinking like, what the hell would they be doing right now if they've beaten Miami and we're actually playing for the national championship while trying to deal with all this? Maybe it's good for Ohio State that they lost so they could like kind of figure this all out while for a game. No, no, I don't think I'm not silver lining it. I think like they'd be in real trouble, I think if they were trying to win a game and manage the roster right now. But I think, yeah, I think, I think all this is making. I think it's making a lot of teams rethink the way they do things. But. But we're just in the Ohio State bubble talking about Ohio State. So that's what we're focusing on. That's all anyone who listens to this cares about. But they're rethinking top to bottom. Like, what kind of transfers do we want to go after? How many high school kids do we want to sign? The portal is no longer for, like, merely plugging holes. The port, a place we're always looking to for upgrades, no matter what. Right. So that, that. That's all very different from how Ohio State sort of sought to build its roster prior to this off season. And I'm not even sure they anticipated it, anticipated that being the case right before the portal opened and maybe kind of got punched in the face with it themselves when they realized what was going to happen to them and what they had to do. But I think moving forward, you hope they have a better handle on it. But of course, all this can keep changing, so. So who knows?

[Doug Lemarise]

But.

[Bill Landis]

But I think we are seeing a radical shift. Ohio State's roster building philosophy kind of happen in real time, so that's good.

[Doug Lemarise]

I'm glad you didn't go with punch in the face, because I'm going to go with kick in the groin, because that was, I'm gonna say, old enough. Fine. Old organization. The oldenization of the Ohio State roster because they be getting old. So. Because here's the deal, right? And I just think you can look at, like, two little spots here. In the old days, it would have made a whole lot of sense where it's like, okay, you lost the safety in Caleb Downs. Fahim Delane seems ready to go. He was a top 100 national recruit. You developed him in year one. Here he comes in year two, and Aaron Scott, he'll be one of the three corners. Maybe you move Jermaine Matthews inside. Maybe. I don't know. But, like, if that's how you're going to replace one of those guys, right? Devin Sanchez is going to move up, but so is Aaron Scott. He was a top 100 national recruit. He's in his third year. It just would have been Delane and Scott before the transfer, and it would have. That's how Ohio State worked. And now that's going to be probably, as you said, Dan Earl Little in the slot and Terry Moore at safety, and it's just older. Is it better? I mean, by, like, recruiting pedigree, it's not better, but by production, excuse me, by Production, it's better and it's definitely older. And like, the thing, Dan, that I can't tell is, did Ohio State decide, you know what, we probably just need to get some veteran guys because we are losing maybe six or seven starters on defense. Did they decide this and sort of willingly make trades of Aaron Scott and Fahim Delaine for little and more, or did those guys say, like, hey, we're not waiting around anymore, or we want more money? And they were forced into these trades. But the result, Dan, is you traded potential for production. You. You traded inexperience for. For more snaps. And I think that's going to keep happening.

[Dan Hope]

Yeah, I think they did make that trade. Not in the sense of they wanted Aaron Scott or Fahim Delaine to leave, but I think they were willing to lose those guys if that was what had to happen to get guys who could come in and play next year. And I think that's where the change in philosophy is starting to happen for Ohio State. Whereas I think in the past, Ryan Day and Ohio State were very reticent to, like, rock the boat, like, unless we, like, have a very clear need that we have to fill. They didn't want to bring in guys who would upset players that they were excited about. And I think now, I mean, you just look at what Indiana is doing. Like, you just look at the way some of these teams are building up, how, you know, old they are and how experienced they are. I think Ohio State's realizing now, okay, like, if they're. If we are not certain about a player coming up and there's a proven guy out there in the portal that we can go get to fill that hole right now, we have to go do it. I think that's just the way it is now in college football. And so I think that, you know, you can't. I think Ohio State is realizing now that it's like sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. And if it means you lose a guy with potential, so be it. Because you can't. You can't keep everybody happy and also win national championships.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, no, that's true. And I also think there's probably a phrase in here. It's going to be more year to year now. It doesn't mean that development is completely dead, but it's just going to be harder to plan for, like, oh, well, two years down the road, this guy should be this. And whatever. It's like, you got it. You got to figure out what you can put on the field and how that all mixes together. So let's keep talking about transfers. Dan, we'll start with you. Question number two. On a scale of 1 to 100, if one is all high school recruiting, and that's how you build your roster and get your players, and 100 is you build your whole team in the portal, where should Ohio State be in the future? And if you want to throw in, like, where you think they were so far, that's fine, but it's like, overall, you know, on 1 to 100, Ohio State should be a blank in roster building.

[Dan Hope]

Yeah, it's such an interesting question because, like, I mean, I think. I think my answer on this has probably changed from what it was two weeks ago, but just of how crazy these last. I mean, like, I think if you asked Ohio State, like you asked Ohio State a month ago, they were probably at like 80 on this, whereas I think now it's probably closer to 50, because you're just seeing the way that the sport is changing so rapidly. And I will, you know, I. I'll. I'll put the caveat on it where, like, I think this number can change over time based on whether we actually get some guardrails around this stuff, whether we actually rule changes. Because I think right now, you know, as Gene Smith used to always say, it's the wild, wild West. And you, you just. The problem is, is you just don't know. Like you said, it's year to year, Doug. You just don't know who's going to be on your roster from one year to the next. You don't know who's going to enter a portal, who's going to decide they want more playing time or more money. So I think because of that, you have to adapt. And you can't, you can no longer look at it and say, like, oh, we're just going to focus on recruiting high school players and then supplement a little bit through the portal. Because if. If you're recruiting guys in one year and they might not be on your roster the next year, then you can only bank on those guys so much. Now, you know, the other thing I would say is, you know, I, I do think there needs to be some caution, you know, not just Ohio State, but everyone around the sport of going all in on the portal. Because, you know, it's kind of one of those things. If everybody goes all in on the portal, then there's not going to be anybody to get out of a portal because nobody's going to get developed. So, you know, you know, it's kind of like when people talk about, like, our jobs and they talk about, you know, oh, chat, GPT. Your aggregators are going to steal all the jobs. Well, if there's no real journalists, there's nothing left to aggregate. I kind of look at it the same way with this where it's like, peep, if. If nobody's recruiting and developing the players, then there's no, no one good to go get in the portal. So I think there still has to be a balance there. It can't be like, oh, we're just going to go build a new team through the portal every year.

[Doug Lemarise]

Oh, we're the high school recruits and the robots are in the portal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stay out of here. Portal robots. And it is hard. It's hard, I think, for Ohio State fans to think about this. And I'm sure it doesn't directly affect what Ohio State does, but when there's a guy like one state over who's in the national championship game with the team that was very successfully adding portal guys, and it's like, well, there's a shining example sitting right there. Bill, how is this maybe changed?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I'll be honest. Your sliding scale confuses me a little bit. But I will say not the first.

[Doug Lemarise]

Time, not the last.

[Bill Landis]

Can I. Can I just say maybe. I think it's going to be like two thirds high school, a third recruiting, or, excuse me, two thirds high school, a third transfer moving forward. I think that's.

[Doug Lemarise]

That's easier to understand. So go ahead and be easier to understand.

[Dan Hope]

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Okay, so. And I think probably, you know, in the past, Ohio State might have said something like 85 of our roster should be guys we've recruited out of high school. So I don't, I don't think it's like a drastic jump to, to 50, 50 just yet. Although, you know, it could be in a given year, but I think sort of on average it might be like, yeah, a third. A third of the. Not even a third of the roster, like a third of the guys who play important roles, probably is a better way to say it, are going to be guys out of the portal. And I can certainly see seasons where that does creep up a little higher. And I wonder, like, as I said, like, I think some of this is happening on the fly for Ohio State, so. But if they're of the mindset now moving forward that they are always going to be looking in the portal for upgrades, not merely to plug holes, will they. Will they be a little more aggressive maybe, in doing that? In the future, which then could make, maybe make this number of impact transfers go higher in a given season. But I still think they have access to high school recruits that a lot of other programs don't have. I think like the list of programs that can recruit out of high school at the level that Ohio State can is still pretty short and they're not going to want to give that up necessarily. So I think they will try to find a way to still combine the two and not live their entire lives in the transfer portal.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yes, this is better. What percent will be high school kids and what percent will be portal kids? Good, good job by you guys figuring this out.

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[Doug Lemarise]

So like I, I always use, I've been using the last couple years like top 30 players on your team. The guys who, the 30 guys who played the most snaps on offensive defense because that's your starters plus like four backups on each side right. This year. And I've cited this number a lot among playoff teams, teams in the final, like Ole Miss, 17 of their 30 were portal ads this year. So they were new one year guys 17 of 30. Indiana, Miami were 12 of 30. Ohio State was four. Like that's much fewer. Georgia was two, right. So it is one of those. And the thing that I wonder about this is once you start doing this, if you start creeping toward, okay, we want in the national championship here it was six of their 30, right? But if you start creeping toward, we want eight, we want 10. Like Bill saying a third, let's say a third of the guys who matter. We want to be out of the pool portal. Can you ever get off that, that carousel then? Because once you go it's like we got a Portal guy instead of playing a developmental guy. And so now when that Portal guy leads, we didn't develop anybody. So now we have the same decision of are we going to play our in house guy who has no experience versus going to get somebody who does have experience. I do think it's a little bit of a decision as much as it is sort of. You're building your roster year to year. I think how you lean is. Is a little static. You either kind of lean. No, we're not really doing Portal. We're doing development. You lean, man. We're like going all Portal or you're somewhere in the middle. Like Oregon's kind of in the middle. Right. And I do wonder, I guess, if you're like, if you're Indiana, you can pull back from it if you start high school recruiting better and you say we don't need to go in the Portal as much. But once you start creeping there, I wonder if you're there to see. Stay kind of. So I think I'll. I'll maybe agree with the idea of maybe it's more like a third of your guys that matter. Like before it was like 15, you know, 10%, 12% of your guys that matter from the Portal. And if you're creeping towards now, it's 33 of your guys that matter are from the Portal. That is, that is a change in strategy. And I'll be curious if that means, like that's where they are for good. Pat, how do you see this?

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah, I agree with, with most of what you guys said, probably all of what you said. I think the Oregon example is a good one because obviously they were the number one team in the country a year ago. They were in the semi finals this year, despite what happened and the turnovers, like that's. And obviously they have a financial backer and Phil Knight that Ohio State doesn't have. But Ohio State is still Ohio State. And I think that's sort of a blueprint you can look at a little bit because you still want to go get guys like, you know, obviously Jeremiah Smith, but Bo Jackson and guys like that who can come in and maybe you don't even in Bo's case, think he's going to play right away, but he's an Ohio kid, he's talented. You like what you see. And the other example I'd use is as maybe a guy who does still get developed, because I do think that's still going to happen some at Ohio State. Not everybody is going to hop in the portal is like Leroy Roker now. Maybe he hops in the portal in the next few days. But that seems like a guy that, yeah, you're not quite ready on him yet. But you went and got two safeties but he's still here and you can keep working with him so that maybe he's ready next year is, is kind of the hope. So yeah, I think that, you know, a third makes, makes some sense. I don't want to see Ohio State become a full transfer portal team and I don't think Ohio State wants to see that. There, there's still, as I think Bill said, like there's still too much talent out there in the high school ranks that Ohio State can get. But I don't think you're going to see them, you know, like they did this year fill the depth that way in the same way anymore.

[Doug Lemarise]

Dan, you were shaking your head. You think they don't want to go too far?

[Dan Hope]

No, I don't, I don't and I don't think they want to go as far as an Indiana has in terms of, you know, being, you know, very transfer portal heavy. I do think, I mean we just saw it, they just signed a 28 man freshman class. You look at for right now, I believe they're ranked as the number one class for 2027. So there's clearly still a big emphasis being placed by Ohio State on high school recruiting. You know, as multiple of you mentioned, you know, Ohio State does have an ability to recruit at the high school level that a lot of schools don't, that that is forcing some of our schools to be heavier in the portal. So I, I do think that, you know, I, I, I would agree, you know, some of the percentages that you know, you guys have said. But I think, you know, in terms of those impact players, you're probably looking at about a third of those guys, I think being portal guys. I think when the dust ultimately settles on this year, that's probably about how it's going to cycle out of about a third of the guys being portal guys and about two thirds being guys who were recruited by how state.

[Doug Lemarise]

And I will say like the more young high school guys you have, I think the more time you then have to spend in the portal trying to keep your own guys both with time, energy and money. And so for instance, like the situations, I think like Fahim Delane and Bo Jackson are two interesting situations here. They were both part of this freshman class for Ohio State. Bo Jackson played a ton, obviously a thousand yard rusher. Fahim Delaine played 81 snaps. Whatever it was, Fahim Delane is leaving. There was obviously some thought at some point maybe Bo Jackson was going to be leaving. And Ohio State had to deal with both those situations. Right. Ohio State in The class of 2025 had 13 high school players ranked higher than, than any Indiana players. So like they just have more, they have higher ranked recruits with higher expectations that they are dealing with Indiana. It did not lose seven first year guys because they don't have the same kind of first year guys who have the same kind of mindset. And so then just stop high school recruiting. You don't have to worry about this.

[Dan Hope]

But.

[Doug Lemarise]

I know, but it's just, I mean it is like there's a cost benefit analysis to all of this, which leads us. Bill, we'll start with you to the third question. Ohio State has lost seven first year players in the portal so far that are in the portal. They're not all the way gone yet. In the previous four years of like this kind of. Since nil became allowed, Ohio State had lost seven first year guys combined. So they've had as many in the portal this year as they had in the first four years combined one year in the program. What's a piece of advice that you would give Ohio State to try to address that, Bill? Is there anything Ohio State can do to try to prevent losing guys after one year? Because I think, you know, a lot of people sort of think that's where you really are sort of throwing like wasted money if you spent a lot of money to get guys in and then they were here for years.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I don't, I mean there's not a, there's not a magic sort of sal for all this, I don't think. But, but I, I would say like play these guys more early. Not saying every guy that comes in that's ranked in the top 100 or five star or whatever needs to start. Like, clearly you don't want to be living in that world if you're Ohio State. But I, I don't know that Ohio State always embraces the opportunities to get these guys on the field early on. And then you get to this sort of inflection point in the off season when you're trying to figure out do you want to pay them to stay or not. And you just don't have a lot of game data to kind of guide you. Now they have practice data that we're not privy to, but games matter more. Every coach will tell you that. I also think it'd be better for the fan base too, to say, like, well, you know, I watched this guy play 85 snaps as a true freshman. And like, yeah, it sucks that he's leaving, but I'm not sure that I saw it when he was out there. So, like, I kind of get it. Like, I think maybe it calms everyone down a little bit. Or like the guy plays 85 snaps and he looks really good and Ohio State keeps him. Everyone's excited about it, right? So I just think there's, there's more information for everybody to gather if you are purposeful about getting these guys on the field early. And, and I think, like, you can't do that with a full 28 man recruiting class, which is like the other part of, it's like, probably don't sign 28 guys anymore. But, but if you're signing a smaller high school class, I, I do think you can get most of them on the field in like a somewhat meaningful way, provided they're healthy to give yourself a better evaluation when it comes time to decide whether or not they're worth paying for year two and beyond.

[Doug Lemarise]

So I, I wonder if the idea of playing them is tied to the idea of playing faster so you have more snaps to play them. And it. I, I've always, for 20 years of this, you know, there are some people who, who are always like, get the, get the starters out. You know, the games decided, put the backups in. And I said, if you, if you put the backups in when the game was decided, when you knew who was going to win, the starters wouldn't play in September. Like the games decided when Ohio State's playing a max school, the games decided when they signed the contract. So, like, what, like, what are we doing? I always say these guys work out all winter, they work out all summer. They get up at 4 o' clock in the morning. They, they live this life because they love to play football. And so to not play the starters, it's like, that's why they're here. They're here to play and you got to be smart about it. But I might be ready to change that. And it's not to protect anybody. It's to figure out what's up with the young guys and help keep the young guys on the hook a little bit. And so I, like, I am. And, and if that's, if the goal, Ryan Day could maybe play the starters the same amount that they've played while playing slow, but then just have an extra, I don't know, 60 snaps over the Course of a season to give to Riley Pettigohn or to give to Fahim Delane or give to some of these guys. And, and I wonder, like, I'll be very curious to sort of ask Ryan Day about that kind of thing of when you limit your snaps, you limit opportunities, and then does limiting opportunities lead to young guys leaving? Is there some connection of that? So I would agree, Bill, advice, maybe play them more. But do you have to play faster so you can play them more? Patrick, what do you think?

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah, I. I agree entirely. I think either play faster or be more explosive. You know, Ohio State two years ago didn't play fast, but they had running backs who could break off big runs. And all of a sudden you're. You're scoring quicker. You had a mecca Buka that was a big play guy that you didn't really see from Brandon Ennis this year. So if you could be more explosive, that'll give you more chance to. To play those guys as well. And sort of unrealistically, like, can you find a financial backer that is gonna pay you? Like, like Phil Knight, like Mark Cuban, you know, does LeBron really want to show his allegiance to Ohio State, for instance, or somebody like that? Like, that's the key right now, it seems, right. These teams have these guys that are just willing to throw money. Now. I was having a conversation with a buddy over the weekend, and he pointed out, like, does LeBron or, you know, insert guy's name. There's care that much because Ohio State's been good his entire life. Like, it's different what Mark Cuban has watched at Indiana football and, and Phil Knight has watched. But I mean, if. If you have more nil money, you can pay more kids, right? So I think that there's, you know, if there's somebody out there that has, you know, the ability to write blank checks just to. To give kind of a different answer. I think that would be ideal for Ohio State to just say, hey, here, Aaron Scott, or, you know, Quincy Porter or whatever, like, we'll pay you, but your role is still the same. And see if that changes the. The equation.

[Doug Lemarise]

Does losing encourage billionaires because Phil Knight is chasing something Oregon's never done? Oregon does not have a national championship in its history. Texas Tech came from nowhere. Mark Cuban has never experienced this in his life. At Indiana, Bill smartly, smartly said. Bill's official stance is it's good Ohio State's not playing in the national championship game because it's helping them build their roster. Bill said that on this Show.

[Bill Landis]

That's right.

[Doug Lemarise]

Are we at the point Ohio State needs to throw in a couple of three and nines to activate the billionaires. They're taking it for granted. These Ohio State billionaires are spoiled.

[Bill Landis]

Maybe.

[Dan Hope]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Patrick Murphy]

I mean, they all want their names on buildings, but maybe they should help fund these national championship runs more often. Easy to say when we're sitting here without. Without giving any money.

[Doug Lemarise]

40 chess. 40 chess. Why going 4 and 8 in 2026 would be the best thing Ohio State could do. Look for that story from Bill Andis on our Bill and Dou substack later this week. Dan, Hope you got any advice for Ohio State here?

[Dan Hope]

Yeah, I mean, I think in, in terms of the original question of, like, can Ohio State prevent this? I don't really think it can. Like, I think it goes back to what was talked about before in terms of, you know, Ohio State has a lot more guys in their freshman class that other schools want. I mean, you look, I just look at a guy like a Maxwell Roy. I mean, he did not play a single snap this last year. I don't think was even close to playing a snap. That was partially because of injury. He goes to ucla. There were rumors that, like, Oklahoma and Clemson were interested in him. Ohio State has guys that even if they don't play, other schools are going to want them just based on their reputation as recruits. Like, if you're Purdue, you know, this is no shade towards Purdue's freshman, but it's just the truth. Like, if you're at Purdue and you don't play as a freshman, teams are going to go, well, you didn't, you couldn't play at Purdue. Why would we want you here? Whereas if you're at Ohio State, they're going to say, well, Haste has a lot of talent. Just because that guy couldn't get him a field at Ohio State doesn't mean he can't get on the field for us. And so I think Ohio State has to deal with that reality of, like, and it's a, it's a good place to be that you have a lot of players that other schools are going to want even if they don't play. And the other side of that coin is, and this does go back to what you guys talked about with, you know, getting guys on the field more is like, we, like, we could look at the freshman class for coming in next year and we could probably identify like, okay, these are five or six guys who really might play this year. And most of the guys we are going to look at and probably say they're developmental guys two, three years down the road. But very few freshmen come in thinking that way about themselves. Very few guys come in thinking that like, oh, I'm going to sit. Most guys, you know, like, would any of us have guessed that Bod Penn Miller would play snaps this past year?

[Bill Landis]

Right? No.

[Dan Hope]

Because he was a high school quarterback, he had to learn how to play the receiver position. But he probably didn't come in thinking like, oh, I'm not going to play at all as a freshman. Like all of these guys think they are going to play. They think you and you have to be like, I think to play at Ohio State, like there's a certain level of confidence you have to have in yourself. But you have to come in thinking like, I'm good enough to play as a freshman. The reality is most guys won't. So you have a lot of guys at the end of the year. You know, I think you have a guy like a Quincy Porter. I mean, he's the first guy to lose his black stripe. He's all these good things that are about him and then you don't really end up playing much and part of it injury. But it's like you, you get these expectations built up and then you kind of get let down over the course of a year. So, you know, I, I think that's part of it too. But it's like, you know, you have, you, you, you're, you're trying to bring in the top guys in the country. They all want to play immediately. You're just not going under again, assuming the rules stay the way they are. You know, I think, you know, we could all probably hope that there's going to be some kind of guardrails placed around some of this stuff that allows for a little bit more of a sustainable roster building process. But it's the way things are right now, where it's a free for all every year. I think it's just going to be reality that you're going to lose some of those guys after a year because you're just going to be guys that say, well, I'm going into year two. If I can't, if I don't know what I'm going to be able to play right now, I'm gonna go somewhere that I can play.

[Bill Landis]

What if we made black stripes binding? Like you can't transfer until you lose your black stripe.

[Doug Lemarise]

And can't transfer until you. Oh, so it's extra motivation to. I was gonna say you're not going to lose Your black stripe until you vow not to transfer.

[Bill Landis]

No, you're just playing guys on Saturdays with black stripes on their helmet.

[Dan Hope]

No, nobody would ever lose their black stripe.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, Jeremiah, that'll go to black stripe.

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah, that'll go well in court.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I know. I can't wait to cover the. But it's tradition.

[Bill Landis]

But your honor, he has his black stripe.

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[Doug Lemarise]

I will say, like the idea that red shirting is hard, that's always been the case. I just, I remember talking to Thaddeus Gibson about this like 20 years ago about like he just had a hard time his first year. Like he wanted to play and he was red shirting and he wasn't playing. And that's a very common thing. But now not only can you leave, you might be enticed to leave, you might have financial offers to leave. And so that's just a very tough thing to try to retain these guys. But one of the things is like we can just maybe a quick discussion on this. Should they just have fewer of them? Like is 28 too many? Bill is part of the answer to this. Just don't have as many freshmen. So you don't have as many guys who maybe could leave. Is 20 and. And now like, well, yeah, the class that they have that right now that's leaving is not 28. It was more like what, 20?

[Bill Landis]

26.

[Doug Lemarise]

26. Okay, that's still a lot. Is that too many? Is that a bottom line of this?

[Bill Landis]

I think so, yeah. I think it's, it's a couple things, right? Like you, some of the guys who won out, you can feel the, the squeeze from the guys coming in behind you. There's the money that was paid to those guys who are coming in behind you that then limit what you might be able to make going into your next season and also I think take away from the pool of money that Ohio State could be using on transfers. Right. Like 28. And they weren't. Ohio State was not the only school that did this or there were plenty of schools that were north of 30 or more, including like Georgia and Notre Dame. Right. So I'll be interested to see if, if those programs experience kind of anything similar moving forward. But I, I do think you just don't, you don't need to sign that many high school prospects if this is what the transport is going to be. You don't need to do that. It just really hamstrings you in a bunch of different ways that I just, it seems quite avoidable if you just take a smaller high school class.

[Doug Lemarise]

Patrick, does 26 and 28 seem too big to you? Would you pull back or do you think that's okay?

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah, I'd pull back. And I think you sort of build the class differently where you try and get your Jeremiah Smiths, your top quarterbacks, those type of guys, those guys, you know are going to play early, early on and then maybe fill in with whether it's Ohio guys or guys that, that, you know, you, you can convince, hey, this is going to be a developmental process. So maybe it's, it's those middle guys that get cut out where you know, the Aaron Scott's just to use an example of the world where yeah, he thinks he's going to come in to Dan's point and play early. You're not sure what, what he is exactly coming out of high school, he's a highly ranked guy, but not the highest ranked guy. And so now did those guys end up at a Wisconsin or, or teams like that and you go big names, you know, guys that can make an immediate impact, guys that understand it's more of a developmental thing and you know, cut out that, that sort of middle grouping there.

[Doug Lemarise]

Dan, would you pull back at all? You think 26, 28 can work?

[Dan Hope]

I'm gonna take the opposite point of view of this and I'm gonna say keep signing big classes because you know you're gonna lose guys. Like, do you see it this year? Like it's, it's. I, I mean, I think again, unless there's some kind of Rule changes. I think it's going to be reality. Like, you're gonna lose, you know, 20, 25 players a year, probably at least. It's just gonna be reality in this new world. So you need to have guys to come in to replace them. And I think, I think the thing that's really you, at least if we, if we're just, you know, and these things can change so much from year to year. But I think if we're basing it off of what we're seeing this year, I think the thing that's really going to be hard is keeping those, like, second, third year guys who have typically been like, the core of, like, your depth. I think those are going to be the hardest guys to keep. So you have to have guys like. Like there's is just going to be. Just because of the transfer attrition, there's going to be more freshmen on the two deep this year than there's been at Ohio State in some time, just because they're going to need more of these guys to come in and play right away. And so I, I think, personally, I don't really think that, you know, shrinking the class is the answer. Because, like, I mean, right now, like, I think they're at like, 84 scholarships and, like, half those players are going to be true freshmen or red shirt freshmen. Like, you can. There's, you know, I think there is a valid argument in terms of, like, maybe spend less money on the high school class so that you can spend more on the transfer class. But either way, there's still going to be a limitation. Like, if you have less freshmen coming in, then you're just going to need to get more transfers and all of those guys are going to cost money, too. So I think, you know, there's. There's may. I think there's probably, like, to Pat's point, probably some different things you need to think about. Like, I think you need to have an honest conversation with yourself. If you're Ohio State, when you bring in a guy and say, okay, is this a guy that realistically is probably gonna transfer in a year? Like, I think you do need to, like, think a little bit more about that and maybe be a little more selective about guys where it's like. Because, like, there's some guys, I mean, there's some guys that have transferred out this year, but I think all of us probably could have predicted, like, they were probably going to transfer out in two years and they transferred in when they signed of Ohio State. Like, some of those guys, maybe some of those guys, you don't sign anymore because you just say, well, what's really the point? But I do think you still need to take bites at that apple. I think you still need to be signing multiple players across every position because you, you, if, if we agree that, you know, two thirds of that roster is still going to be guys that you're recruiting. You gotta take enough shots because to have enough guys that are going to ultimately fill out those spots.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. And it is, is 28 guys in the portal so far for Ohio State. They only lost 12 scholarship guys last year. They did lose 24 the year before. So like this isn't. It's not the first time. And maybe that. Dan, that's an interesting point. If, like, if it's just, just losing 25 to 30 guys is the norm, like, that's just what it is. Some of them are maybe highly ranked guys, but you lose that many and that's what it is. So you got to have a lot of numbers because you're going to lose them no matter what. All right, let's move off the transfer portal a little bit. This is from. We take a lot of questions from our Substack subscribers over at billanddugosu.substack.com this is from Dan P. I'm paraphrasing a little bit. What would you like to see Julian saying improve the most in 2026? Not giving up on possibly open guys downfield scrambling more effectively or eliminating some of those late season interceptions? Or is it something else? You know, the guy's a Heisman finalist as his first year as a starter. It's a pretty darn good year. But also I think we talked a lot about Will Howard elevated at his quarterback play in the playoff. And then maybe like that wasn't an elevation for Julian saying against Miami for good reason. In many situations, I would say taking those shots down the field because someone like people have pointed out, you know, Carson Beck's like Carson Beck's biggest play against Ole Miss was against a blown coverage. It's like, all right, well, great throw on that 50 yard play. They handed it to you. But also you've got to see it like you have, you have to take what's there. And I do think we all saw some of those plays over the course of the season. Even maybe a Carnell Tate shot that might have been there against Miami. For Julian saying that he, he didn't try, you do have some guys who have potential to make some plays down the field. I think he knows that I think it's a, a reasonable progression that maybe you didn't do that in your first year as a starter. But I think to me that would be at the top of the list of what you would want to see Julian saying do more. Make sure when there's a chance to make a play down the field that you take the opportunity, even if it's not a perfect situation. But you, you have to take advantage of those possible explosives when they present themselves. Patrick Murphy, what would you like to see the biggest step from Julian saying one of those three things or something else?

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah, I think similar to what you said, Doug, I think vision and anticipation were the two things that, that I came up with. I think that fits into what you were saying. There were too many times this year where we're sitting in the press box, it's like, oh, we missed that guy. And you don't get punished for that against Purdue, but you do against Miami when you don't see Max Claire coming open for a touchdown. Right? So I think that, and I think, you know, a off season of being able to go back and watch all of his film will help with that because you can take that time right to, okay, here's where the play was. Here's where my eyes were. Maybe here's where my eyes should be. And now as I practice this, I can, I can, you know, improve on, on what I'm looking at or getting off guys quicker. And then the anticipation part, Ryan Day talks about it like, sometimes Jeremiah Smith's not open based on what other receivers would be buddies? Jeremiah Smith? I think the same will probably be true with Chris Henry Jr. Down the road, guys like that. So I think sort of anticipating what these receivers are going to do. Does that lead to a couple more interceptions? Because you're taking risks. Maybe, but I would rather see that than some of the interceptions we saw at the end of the year. You know, like the, the misunderstanding with Jeremiah Smith against Michigan. Like, I'd rather that be a deep shot that just, you know, he throws it and the guy makes a great play because he thought Jeremiah Smith would come open and anticipate some things a little bit more. I think more often than not you're going to win that given the receivers Ohio State has. But I do think it's. Yeah, I thought this, when you, when you sent out the questions, like, this is a first year starting quarterback who was a Heisman finalist to your point, Doug, so improvement is necessary, no doubt about it. But he was also really good. And I think that that's important to.

[Doug Lemarise]

Point out Dan Hope, what you got.

[Dan Hope]

I, I think for me, I think, I think he does need to become more of a threat to make plays with his legs. You know, he's, he's never going to be Justin Fields. He doesn't have Justin Fields of speed. He's never going to be Will Howard. He doesn't have Will Howard size. But you just look at, I mean you look at pretty much every quarterback who's won in a college football playoff this year has, you know, some, you know, running ability, has made some plays of bare legs. I mean, Carson Beck was not viewed as that coming into the cfp. But in every game he has made key plays with his legs that have, that have helped Miami, including the game winning touchdown in the most recent game. So I, I think that, you know, there's going to be a limit on what Julian saying can become as a runner. I, you know, I, I think it, you know, for me there's always that question of like, how much of it is like Julian maybe not looking to run or need to get better run. How much of it? Right. Is it Ryan Day handcuffing him and telling him not to run. Like I always felt that was the case with CJ Stroud where it was like Ryan Day was telling him not to run. He basically told us that a couple times. And then in the Georgia game it's like, hey, this guy can, can suddenly make plays with his legs. You know, I think you look at Julian size, it's like they might be a little bit hesitant to like put him in harm's way a lot of times. But I also think that like in modern college football it's really hard to win it all without a quarterback who poses some kind of running threat. And you look at Ryan Day's offenses, I mean to me when, you know Ohio State's offenses have been at their peak, it was when they had that, when they had that with Justin Fields and then, you know, that championship run last year, they had very prolific passing offenses with C.J. stroud. But I still think there was particularly in some of those situations, you know, red zone, short yardage, all that just not having that running threat at quarterback held them back at times. And I think Orion Day's offenses have been their best and most efficient when they've had that running threat from a quarterback position. So to me, I think that's an area that needs to be worked on for Julian saying going into this second year, you know, he's never going to run the ball. 15 times a game. But he does need to be able to at least give them a threat that defenses have to account for.

[Patrick Murphy]

Something real quick. Yeah, just to dance point. I think the, the big thing, and I've talked about this a little bit with him is the smart runs. Like hey, I can get 5 yards and get out of bounds and I don't take those hits that Dan's talking about where, where you're you know, gonna, gonna risk an injury or you know, sliding like things like that, that he can work on. You know, maybe stuff that he's not naturally seeing. But if you're going to want him to just pick up those, those, those plays that are there have a way to avoid then those hits. I think Joe Burrow does that really well. Like he'll take some hits sometimes. He's also bigger but he's the example I think of a guy who doesn't run a ton but does it enough, like Dan said, to keep you honest. And he doesn't take a ton of, of those hits because he's smart about how he handles it. So I think that's another thing you could add is how you run and how you avoid some of those, those bigger blows that guys like to give when quarterbacks get out of pocket and.

[Doug Lemarise]

Just take it when it's there. Carson Beck did not scramble for more than nine yards in any game during the regular season. The last two games against Ohio State and Ole Miss he scrambled for 28 yards and 29 yards. According to PFF CJ Stroud, his last year at Ohio State did not scramble for double digit yards and he only did in three games. Going into the Georgia game he scrambled for 66 yards against Georgia like it was there. Like when it was time to take it in a go time game you could take it. Bill, what do you think here?

[Bill Landis]

It's sort of like a combination of, of all these things I guess I would say like play looser, like, like play play more off of, of instinct. I do think there's a thing with, with young Ryan Day quarterbacks and I, I sort of get it that they do tend to be like a little conservative sometimes or there's just like a, it's like a bit of like a homogenized, homogenized approach I think to like bringing these guys along that just doesn't allow them to I think fully sort of like break out the way we'd like to see them do it. No, like they've in the same breath like they are, they've been Heisman finalists. Like they've been very good. They've been efficient. Like, they've, They've piled up the stats. But when you think about playmaking, it has taken a while for some of these guys to really blossom in that way. And I just think Julian's, like, kind of in a similar position. Like, I think. I think Justin Fields like a different kind of guy, and he's. And he sort of broke out of that earlier. I think Will Howard is like, as an older guy who, like, kind of played like a maniac sometimes, like this. This wasn't work, just wasn't like. But like, it worked for him. Just wasn't going to be held back by that because he had played so much football already. But, but I think with these young guys, these redshirt freshmen that have started for, for Ryan Day, or even a guy like Dwayne Haskins who was in his first season, like, they're very good passers, but there's. There's just other parts of the game that they have to grow into. And, and sometimes I do wonder if the, like, take care of the ball mantra, which is like, all well and good, does, like, slow some of that process sometimes. So, like, if. If that's what part of this season was where we didn't see Julian scramble as much as we. As he probably should have, and we didn't see him take every single deep shot or make the most aggressive throw most of the time, if all that was just a byproduct of, like, what it is to learn in year one in the system, well, then look on the other side of this. Going into 20, 26, he should be able to, like, harness that and maintain it, but also become more of a playmaker and just play a little bit looser. And I think he has that in him. Right. If you, if you watch, like, his stuff in high school, like you. He's one of the, like, I'm not saying, like, where he played in high school is. Is directly equivalent to what he faces in college, but he runs around, he makes throws on. On the move. He's good at throwing on the move, frankly. He's not a burner, but he can run a little bit. He's got like some, Some twitch in his body to get away from guys. Ryan Day even said that when, when they're, like, talking about naming him the starter back. Back in August. So I don't, I don't think anyone's asking him to do things he's not physically capable of doing. I just think it's. It's stuff that Comes with comfort playing the game and, and sort of comfort feeling the speed and, and probably comfort from the, on the part of Ryan Day for like allowing his quarterback to kind of break out of his shell a little bit. So like all, we're all talking about the same thing. But I, I think for me like it kind of comes down to just embracing the playmaking elements of the position and I do think that will take him a long way next year.

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[Doug Lemarise]

By pff. Scrambles against Indiana and Miami for Julian saying none did not scramble in either game. Okay, last one. Patrick, we'll start back with you. This is, I like to differentiate between team and program. Team to me as a one year conversation, program is like holistically top to bottom. Resources, commitment, investment, recruiting, coaching, like how good you are overall. Everybody has a bad year sometimes. What are the chances that Indiana passes Ohio State as the best overall football program in the Big Ten? Let's put a percentage chance of it and let's say like over the next three to five years that at three years from now, five years from now, you would look at what these programs have done and are expected to do. Coaching, player acquisition, winning on the field, top to bottom. What are the chances we're going to look and say Indiana is better than Ohio State?

[Patrick Murphy]

I think it's, it's growing. I would still say it's small. I said somewhere like 35ish percent just because I think you still have the, the brand power that Ohio State is.

[Dan Hope]

Right.

[Patrick Murphy]

Like even if Indiana wins this national championship next week, I think the, the ability of the blocko on the chest that we hear about to get you into any door in the country still carries more weight than the Indiana logo, for instance. And I think, you know, we have to ask the question like is Kurt Signetti still there? Because that's, that's what has driven all this. Right.

[Bill Landis]

Does I heard his coach on the Eagles next year?

[Patrick Murphy]

Yeah, I was gonna say that. Does the NFL come calling? Obviously he's turned down some, some college opportunities, but I think that that plays a big part in this. So, you know, you look back through the history of, of the Big Ten or, or you know, national championships one, I think you see every once in a while, like a team pop up for a short period of time or maybe even one year where it's like what happened that season where that team won. And I don't think Indiana is going to be that. But you know, is Indiana going to go on this big run where they are consistently contending with Ohio State? I am not there yet. And maybe, you know, I'll look back and say, hey, I evaluated this wrong. But it sort of reminds me of what Michigan State's done at times. And obviously it's a very different situation. But you know, there's been those periods where the biggest challenge to the, in the Big Ten for Ohio State was Michigan State, not Michigan or Penn State. Right. And so I think Indiana can do sort of that kind of thing and maybe even win more than Michigan State did. But I don't know if they overtake Ohio State as the program, as you put it. Capital P program.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay, Dan Hope, what's your number?

[Dan Hope]

Yeah, I mean, if we were talking like long term, I'd put it at like 5% because I think that, you know, Ohio State is historically been the most recession proof program in college football. Indiana until earlier this year had the most losses in college football history. So like to think that over a long period of time, Indiana will remain ahead of Ohio State. I, I just don't see that happening. If we're condensing it to like three to five years, then I'd probably put it at like 20%. I mean, I think that, you know, what, what Kurt Signetti is doing right now is, is fantastic. And I think, you know, like I, I was, I mean, I was someone. I felt like I was bullish on Indiana going into 2024 when I had them going 6 and 6 and everybody, everybody had them at like 2 and 10 and then they go and make the CFP. And then this year I was a hater. I didn't even put him in the cfp. Like, I underestimated just how good Kurt Signetti was. I'm like, I'm like they're probably gonna have somewhat of a drop off. Right? Way better and probably won the national championship. So I don't want to underestimate Kurt Zignetti. Like, I think he's doing a phenomenal job and I do think there's going to be some sustainability here over the next several years in terms of Indiana being a real contender. But to think that they're going to stay like ahead of Ohio State over a sustained period of time, that would surprise me. Just because, you know, Ohio State, you know, has again is historically been a championship contender year in and year out for Indiana. This has been a two year thing right now. So I, I tend to believe that, you know, Ohio State, you know, going forward over a years long period of time is going to still be the better program than Indiana. But I mean, just the fact that we're having this conversation at all is incredible and that speaks to how good a job he's done because two years ago this would have been an unimaginable conversation for us to be having about Indiana versus Ohio State.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, no, it's insane. It like it's. What are the chances that Boston College will be a better program than Miami over the next five years? Like, what are you talking about? It's like, so Bill, where are you?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think pretty low. I think Pat mentioning Michigan State's interesting, right? And you guys can tell me like that run the Michigan State had, like, I guess I'm looking at it now from 2010 to 2015 where they won 11 and 2, 11 and 3, 7 and 6, 13 and 1, 11 and 2, 12 and 2 and won the Big Ten a couple of times. Was anybody talking about Michigan State's the best program in the Big Ten?

[Doug Lemarise]

Right?

[Bill Landis]

Like, people still, people still thought it was Ohio State right at that time, even. Even though Michigan State managed to beat Ohio State on the field during that period a couple of times too. Like, I just, it takes a whole lot to knock Ohio State for its perch. Now it would be different, as was mentioned, if Indiana wins a national title. And I think, you know, back then, had there been an expanded playoff, Michigan State certainly would have been in and I think would have been probably capable a year or two of, of advancing the way that Indiana has. And if you can do that, that does change the conversation at Michigan State never really had that opportunity except for the one year where they made the playoff and got their doors blown off. Right. But so I don't know, I just like you're talking about, you know, a century's worth of, of something that Ohio State has built up here practically. And I don't know that we. One year is interesting for Indiana. I don't, you can't undo all of that in, in one year, even if you do win a national championship. So. And I just have a hard time Seeing Indiana continuing to run the Big Ten the way that it did this year, year over year over year, in a way that would knock Ohio State from its perch. So I'm. I'm probably like a 10 chance that that would happen. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

I do think Indiana is going to maintain it, and I think. But I think part of this would be like, Ohio State, I think, would have to come back a little bit. Like even that. Even like right now if Indiana wins the national championship. But you look at, like, top. Well, I don't know. Here's the thing. Like, if they keep the resources, if they keep the investment, if they can keep paying their coordinators, if Cuban steps up and they are just like spending a ton of money. We talked about where's like, Ohio State, single donor, all those things, if they can keep that investment. And Signetti stays the thing. That's interesting. And just Pat, you bringing up Michigan State made me think of this. Do you guys. I kind of remember this vividly. Bill, you probably do too. Remember, like, the Malik McDowell recruitment for Michigan State.

[Bill Landis]

Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

And wasn't. Wasn't Ohio State in on him? And I did. Did. Bill, when we [e-mail] were people not pulling over on the side of the road to write, like, Malik McDowell committed to Michigan State stories? I can remember that being like a huge deal.

[Bill Landis]

Right. I think the time we were working together, maybe the most read story that Ari wrote was about Malik McDowell. Like top. Malik McDowell's top five schools or something like that. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

So like that idea. So Michigan State sort of like Kurt Signetti had a very specific way of winning. Like, Signetti's is sort of like working the portal very effectively, getting these experienced guys, bringing a lot of the gym. You guys. Mark Dantonio is getting three star guys out of Ohio. Right. Like, he was winning with three stars. And then they got good. And then they got so good they kind of could change how they were winning and they could go maybe get some more high school guys. And then once they started doing that, then they. I took a little bit of it. They didn't fall off a cliff immediately, but I feel like they kind of lost their identity a little bit. So now that makes me think, as Indiana reaches this. This territory where great players are going to want to go to Indiana, they're not the scrappy underdogs anymore. Now you have to handle being a big dog. And can you as a coach, as a program, as a fan base, handle being the big dog? Or is your identity being the scrappy chip on your shoulder? Team and then when you change, do you lose it a little bit? I hadn't thought about that until Patrick Murphy's drop in Michigan State on me. So anyway, so the.

[Bill Landis]

When Indiana lands its first five star prospect, you will. That will signal the death of Indiana football team.

[Doug Lemarise]

Look for [e-mail] 1000% and I'll look for that to explode like the Malik McDowell story did for Ari. So like that idea is very like it's a transition. It's a transition from scrappy underdog to big dog. Can you handle it? So I would put it maybe at like 25 because I think the thing is if the world and Dan, you've been talking about this like our guardrails coming. Is it going to change some more? I think it will. But like the more it's like, well, the portal works. Investment works. If you have some big money donors, that works. And Signetti is like a football monster. Like, like maybe that we're even having the conversation is interesting. So I'll put it at like 27 because I counted in 27 is the number of times that Kurt Signetti has smiled in the last two years in Indiana. All right, Patrick Murphy, 24. 7 sports. Where can people find you? Where, where can they see what you're working on?

[Patrick Murphy]

Yep, we're over at 24. Seven sports or buck nuts. It has been a crazy and I'm sure you guys can all attest to this last, what, I don't even know how many days since Ohio State lost with the transfer portal stuff. So we're trying to keep up with it, but you know, it's, it's just, it's a wild time. And again, I don't know if it was a year ago, we were just busy with football, but yeah, we're, we're doing our best and as I'm sure you guys can can attest to.

[Doug Lemarise]

All right, Dan Hope, how can the folks find you?

[Dan Hope]

Yeah, Dan Hope. Dan underscore hope on x11warriors.com that's 11 spelled out like Pat said. You know, we got a, we got a lot of stuff on our site as well. We've got a transfer portal tracker that we've had running since the, the first day of a portal. And I think we've got to be up to some crazy number of updates on that at this point because it feels like numerous times a day we're going in and adding new stuff. Someone's transferring to Ohio State, someone's transferring out. There's some update on somebody visiting. So we're doing our best to try to cover all this craziness the best we can.

[Doug Lemarise]

Landis, we doing anything over at the Bill and Doug substack?

[Bill Landis]

Nope.

[Doug Lemarise]

No.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, we're, yeah, we're doing vacation. Yeah, we're on vacation now. We're doing, we're doing the same thing. Got the tracker going, got the, I, I hesitate to call them film breakdowns, but you know, some, some analysis of these guys when they're committing to Ohio State. So I actually enjoy that part of it. It's fun to just kind of like watch new players and think about how they might fit into Ohio State. But I understand that it's hard to get super excited about that when 28 players are leaving Ohio State. But I'm excited to see how this all, how this all shakes out and where exactly Ohio State ends up. And maybe it'll end up in a place where people feel pretty good about what they have on the roster next year.

[Doug Lemarise]

And I will say the chat and over this whole portal thing has been nothing but me getting my feelings hurt and because every time Ohio State gets a new player, everybody on our side is like, bill, what do you think of Ohio State's new player? And nobody asks what I think. Nobody cares. Also, Ohio State, as we were talking, has added and then AI, robot chat, GPT or whatever. Just add in the latest portal addition into what I just said right there and then we'll be covered in case this show feels old by the time you see it or watch it. For now. Thanks to Patrick Murphy. Thanks to Dan Hope For Bill Landis, I'm Doug Lemarise and that was around the shoe on the Bill and Doug show.

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