← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Ohio State cornerback grades: Has OSU dropped off from DBU, and how young will next year's CBs be?
00:37:58
It's the final position group breakdown and grades for the Ohio State Buckeyes, as Bill Landis and Doug Lesmerises run through Davison Igbinosun, Jermaine Mathews, Lorenzo Styles Jr. and the rest of the Buckeyes' cornerbacks.
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- [00:02]
Doug Lam Reese
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- [01:02]
Bill Landis
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- [01:04]
Doug Lam Reese
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- [01:09]
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- [01:12]
Doug Lam Reese
Primal Kitchen pure avocado oil gets the job done. Pure quality tested and trusted. Grab a bottle at Walmart stores nationwide or online@walmart.com. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lam Reese and Bill Landis. The last of our ten position group breakdowns. It's cornerbacks. We hope you have consumed some or all of the previous nine. We are now through the first round of the playoff. We are in the thick of it. We are getting ready to talk to Ohio State coaches and players to prepare for the Cotton Bowl. We got, got a lot popping on our sub stack@billanddugosu.substack.com and we're fired up and ready to go. And I think this was, this was a good project for us, Bill.
- [02:00]
Bill Landis
Yeah, it was nice to take a step back and go like group by group, I think. Yeah. Just to like sort of reset things before, before Ohio State plays a playoff game. So yeah, happy to do it. Yeah.
- [02:11]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah. So finishing up with cornerbacks, let me ask you this, like, are we, are we still in the golden era of Ohio State cornerbacks or have we taken a half step back from that?
- [02:27]
Bill Landis
Maybe. Well, I don't know. Maybe a half step back. Yeah.
- [02:33]
Doug Lam Reese
So the last Ohio State cornerback taken in the first round of the NFL draft, do you remember, do you know what year it was the last time Ohio State had a first round corner, which is a high bar. Is a high bar.
- [02:47]
Bill Landis
Was it Jeff Okuda?
- [02:49]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah, Jeff Okuda and Damon Arnett in 2020. So like.
- [02:52]
Bill Landis
Oh, right.
- [02:53]
Doug Lam Reese
You know, like we're coming after a time where Bradley Roby first round corner in 14, Eli Apple in 16, Marshawn Lattimore and Gary on Connolly in 17. Denzel Warden, 18. Right. You're in that run where it's like, oh my God, like every cornerback who takes the field for Ohio State's the first rounder. The 2016 Ohio State cornerback room, they were rotating three guys through two spots and they were all first round cornerbacks. Like, this is ridiculous. And then Okuda winds up being the third pick in the draft in the same year that Arnett's also in the first round. It's like, wow. And it's like it just incredibly high bar. But when you think about, for instance, in the discussion that we've been having, it's like Ohio State is all American linebackers. They have all American defensive tackle, they have all American defensive end, they have all American receivers, they have, you know, like all American offensive line. They, they have a lot. They don't have an all American corner and that's okay. But there was a time where I think if we were doing a discussion like this or if we were having some kind of draft or like what, what is Ohio State's best position group? I think in the late teens you'd have an argument that corner is their best position group.
- [04:00]
Bill Landis
I. Yeah, it probably would be. Right. Then it got sort of surpassed by receiver.
- [04:08]
Doug Lam Reese
Yes.
- [04:08]
Bill Landis
I guess these things like, can be a little cyclical. Right. It's. It's hard to be position you across the board. I guess so. And I get. And then, then the conversation, I suppose becomes okay, if you're not that. Are you still good? Which I would say, like, they're still, they're still. It's good. But yeah, it's just a degree or two or three below what it was sort of at its peak.
- [04:34]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah. Even at a time when it's like, you know, Caleb Downs is redefining safety play and it's like they just, they don't, they don't quite have a corner at that spot. So it's not a criticism, it's just a reality check. The last 12 years of the NFL draft, they've had 12 guys drafted. They've had seven guys drafted in the first round. But their most recent draft picks, 2025, they had two fifth rounders and Jordan Hancock and Denzel Burke. 2021, they had a fifth rounder in Sean Wade. Like, that's, that's it for the corners in the NFL draft for Ohio State since the 2020 draft. Just as a point of reference. That's all point of reference, first team all Big Ten corners Davis and Ig McNoson made it this year. He's first team for the media, was second team for the coaches. Denzel Burke was a first teamer for the coaches in 2023. Sean Wade was a first teamer for, for both media and coaches in 2020. Okuda for both in 2019. Just like by the way, just double checking on this 2017 season. Denzel Ward, first team for the media, second team coaches, all Big Ten. He was the fourth pick in the draft.
- [05:36]
Bill Landis
Did you look and see who got it from the coaches ahead of him?
- [05:40]
Doug Lam Reese
There was one of those years where it was like Jordan Lewis from Michigan and is it Jordan King from Iowa or like, or is it revert? Like there's there were like some good Big Ten corners and so it was like, okay. Also, Marshawn Lattimore the year before was first team coaches in 2016, but was second team media. He was the NFL Defensive Rookie of the year. The next year he was second team all Big Ten by the media. So it's just like, I don't know. I don't know.
- [06:07]
Bill Landis
First team coaches, corners were Josh Jackson from Iowa.
- [06:13]
Doug Lam Reese
Oh, he was the second round pick. It's really good. Had three picks of J.T.
- [06:17]
Bill Landis
Barrett and Nick Nelson from Wisconsin.
- [06:21]
Doug Lam Reese
Oh, yeah, I don't know who that is. I think I meant Desmond King from Iowa also maybe in 2016. Not Jordan King. Jordan Lewis and Desmond King. Right. Were those two guys. So to each his own. You know, we're not here to throw stones 10 years ago, but just like again, like a reminder, like it's not quite. It was where it was 10 years ago, but David Osin's brought it back a little bit and it has been an ongoing thing that you and I have talked about multiple times on the show. But like, I do find it still somewhat striking the way Ryan Day has talked about Davis named Gnosing at times this year and just sort of saying that like he brought something from an attitude standpoint from, from a standard of play. Just like this is who we're gonna be again in the cornerback room. That again you think about, they get Davis, Nick McNoson, he's, he's a starter in the SEC as a true freshman. And then they go get him in the portal and then he winds up being a three year starter at Ohio State. And like, where would they be without David Snake? Big Gnosin, add him to the list of where would you be without these Buckeyes and he's on the list. How important he's been to this team.
- [07:27]
Bill Landis
He is. I think we, I, I think you and I gave Denzel Ward sort of his due. Props on the way out for being a guy who I think helped get the cornerback room back on track after down years. Denzel Burke. Sorry, did I say Denzel Ward? Yeah, Denzel Burke for getting the room back on track after some, after some down years. And like that's like, you know, approach and mentality, but it's, it's also just kind of level of play. And I think like Davison sort of picked that up and ran with it too. Right. And maybe even from an attitude standpoint did a little more to just. I don't like establish a level of competitiveness in that room, like a standard of competitiveness and kind of like, I don't know, like don't give a. Don't give a crap attitude, like in a good way. That was lacking there too. Right. It was, it was the. For a while was a pretty swaggy room and then they kind of lost it because it's hard to be that way when you're not very good. And, and I think Davison as much as anyone has helped bring that back.
- [08:34]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah. And just like the, the num as we record this, according to PFF, he's played 2, 7, 39 college football snaps, which is just a ton of football.566 at Ole Miss as a true freshman in 2022.770 at Ohio State in 23, 8, 10 last year for Ohio State and 593 so far this year. Like just a. It is a remarkable amount of football and, and high level football. And again, you just go back through and the way we think about the transfer portal and I think more often than not, right. You think about guys who are really established and it's kind of. You kind of know what you're getting. It's a big time name who started somewhere else in his moving, but some of these moves like this he was there for. He's a Jersey kid in the SEC for a year and. Oh, and Tim Walton just goes. Scoops him out. I, I sort of don't even. How did it happen? What? I can't remember. Like they just can't remember. It's like they just. It's like, oh, what's going on in the cornerback room? It's like, I don't. We just went to Ole Miss and like pulled out a kid who started as a true freshman. It's like, oh, okay, that seems like a good idea. And now we're officially at. Where would Ohio State be without Davis? Ignosan territory. It's just if you're. If you're trying to do like this modern era of Ohio state transfers, the 10 most impactful Ohio State transfers. And like you're talking about like Justin Fields, you know, and stuff, like, it's like Davis is up there, is he not? Caleb Downs, obviously, like, but like Davis.
- [10:04]
Bill Landis
Up there, he definitely isn't. And it's also like that class was sort of like Ohio State's kind of first foray into the portal world too. Like, the portal world had sort of been established, I think the year before, but they were not super heavy that year. And then they took a pretty big portal class, a lot of which frankly, like, didn't work. I'm looking at the group now. Here's the. Here's the portal class I took that year. It's the 2023 portal class.
- [10:31]
Doug Lam Reese
Okay.
- [10:32]
Bill Landis
Nigel Glover, who never did anything when I think transferred to go back to.
- [10:38]
Doug Lam Reese
Northwestern, actually ran into Nigel Glover in a hotel lobby a couple. A couple weeks ago. Fine young man.
- [10:43]
Bill Landis
Nice. I mean, there were. Taiwan Malone I think has worked out. Lorenzo Styles Jr. Has worked out. Josh Simmons certainly worked out. Davis Nigmanosin worked out. I mean, this class is better than I give it credit for. It was like kind of like two or three misses and the rest hit jihad. Carter was in that class. Didn't work out. John Furman was in that class. Like, I guess he worked out. He's been a starting long snapper for a few years. Vic Cutler. No. And Tristan Jebia, I guess, worked for what he was brought in for. So. But that was like kind of their first portal class. And Simmons is the. Is the gem of it, I guess because he was a first round pick.
- [11:19]
Doug Lam Reese
But Davidson's number two, like, impact on Ohio State. And it's not just Josh Simmons's fault that he got hurt, but impact on Ohio State. I think David Zincmanosa's higher than Josh Simmons.
- [11:31]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [11:32]
Doug Lam Reese
Had an okay first year as a starter and then was really good in the second year and got hurt.
- [11:37]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah, that'd be. Maybe we should do that ranking transfers, like, ranking their most, like most impactful transfers since that year.
- [11:49]
Doug Lam Reese
Okay.
- [11:49]
Bill Landis
We an off season thing.
- [11:51]
Doug Lam Reese
Add it to the list.
- [11:52]
Bill Landis
I'm gonna add it to the list.
- [11:53]
Doug Lam Reese
Go into the file. So the other thing about David's name, Bignosis, I mean, obviously last year we talked about him. You always talked about penalties. 16 penalties according to P. A year ago. Led the country by a wide margin. Five this year. He and Jermaine Matthews both have five according to PFF, which is, like, tied for 18th among power four corners. So, like, it's still up there a little bit. I think there are guys who have, like, nine or whatever, but it's not. He's. He'd cut them by two thirds. So, like, that idea was kind of the one thing that was holding him back. It's been a big conversation. They're making him wear potholders or whatever on his hands so he can't grab people in practice. What do you call oven mitts? Not potholders. But anyway, that's been, like. It's been fine. And I think Davis Denigli Nosen has played at a pretty high level for basically the entire season and has kind of played like a number one corner. And again, just a guide. Just a guide. Just a guide. But since. So Jeff Okuda in 2019 had a PFF grade that was through the roof the last six seasons. Ohio State corners. The highest grade is 80.2 for Denzel Burke in 2023. Davis, big notion this year is 79.4. It's the second highest grade, the second highest PFF grade of any Ohio State cornerback of the last six years. Good year.
- [13:15]
Bill Landis
Yeah. And he's also like, I. I will always appreciate him for how he plays the run. He's just not afraid. He's just not afraid to mix it up. His run defense grade on PFF has been above 80 every year he's been at Ohio State, and he tackles really well. He's just like a really physical dude who is. Who, like, embraces that part of the game, which is not something you get from every cornerback you come across. So, yeah, I always respect that about him.
- [13:40]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah. So just, again, like, I just. I just don't know that everybody. You think, like, go back and, like, if they don't get him, it's like, oh, well, it didn't work out. We tried to. He wanted to stay at Ole Miss, first of all. My God, anybody who got out of Ole Miss while they get was good. Can you imagine Davis? Think but notice. It's like, hey, like, the alternate timeline of Davis. Nick Benosin is sitting in the meeting waiting for Lane Kiffin to come in and announce that he's going to LSU his senior year, or he's here starting for a team that's trying to go back to back as national champions. Like, good call Davis and Egg McNoson to come to Ohio State. But again, I just, you know, they would have had to get somebody, but, like, the kind of, like, the bottom line is they. They sort of needed a little bit of help, and he was there for it. So, again, by PFF grade, 43 targets this year, 18 receptions. That's allowing a catch 41.9 of the time. That's good. Five pass breakups, two interceptions. And then he also had, like, the great interception that was waved off when he went and celebrated in the stands and was going crazy. Didn't count. So. So devastating, but oh, like, very high. Great. Jermaine Matthews, the second corner here. Also, five penalties this season. 23 catches allowed on 38 targets. A 60.5 reception rate. Again, Davis Ingman Osin's 41.9. So higher for Matthews and just was like, kind of. Kind of like going along there for a while at, like, a really high level, and then just has had a couple of the last couple games where they've. He's given up a couple catches, and that's kind of where we are with him, right?
- [15:19]
Bill Landis
Yeah. He's given up two touchdowns this year. One. One, obviously, in the Big Ten championship. It was like he gave up one in the Texas game and one of the Big Ten championships, so in between, he didn't give up any. Yeah, Yeah, I. I think he's been put into some tougher spots the last couple of weeks. The penalties have not helped things. I thought maybe one or two of those were kind of. Kind of iffy calls.
- [15:38]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah, same.
- [15:39]
Bill Landis
Same for Davidson, but that's sort of the nature of. Of the beast. I. You know, I. I would say that Jermaine's been, like, solid. Like, if I were. Like, if you're compared, like. I would say, like, Davis has been good, and I would say Jermaine's probably been, like, solid, which I would say is, like, a step below consistently good. But there have been, like, really high.
- [15:59]
Doug Lam Reese
Levels of play after week eight. I might have said good for Jermaine Matthews.
- [16:03]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, around that Illinois game where he had to play nickel and was, like, kind of all over the ball. That was really good. Yeah. And like, after that, still. Still played well. It is like, I don't know. He's, like, starting for the. He wouldn't be the first time, like, start. The first guy to start for the. Like, kind of for the first time in the full length of a season and, like, see his play dip a little bit toward the end of the year. I wonder if this break might. Might help him out some. And I'm not trying to make excuses for him. Because he would he'd be the first one to tell you he needs to play better. But I think it's clear that as we discussed in our substack show of the top 22 Buckeyes right now, that Davison has kind of established himself as the number one corner in germane, while I think reliable is the number two corner.
- [16:53]
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- [17:39]
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- [18:11]
Doug Lam Reese
Again Davidson first team All Big Ten for the media second team for the coaches Jermaine Matthews did not make the media team third team for the coaches PFF grade Davis among power four cornerbacks 28th overall, 79.4 on the grade Jermaine Matthews 174th overall, 64.7 on the grade. Like again like that Themes I I Jermaine Matthews is better than the 174th best power conference cornerback in the country. Like there's no, there's no doubt about that. So it's just, you know, just a little bit of a guide here. But in general, like I think as you think about those two outside corners again going into the playoff, I you know the Indiana right It was like Elijah Surratt was the guy who made the touchdown catch on Jermaine Matthews. Like Elijah Saras awesome and he's bigger than Jermaine Matthews, right? Like I don't there's a part of that that's like sometimes you're going to get got and Indiana's receivers aren't at the Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate level, but they're the next step down. They're like, in the discussion, I think of, like, the best receiver combo in the country. They're probably top five, Ohio State's number one. So I, I do not think Ohio State or the fan base goes into the postseason thinking like, oh, man, I hope the corners don't get picked on. Is that true?
- [19:27]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think aside from the penalties, I don't know, there's. There's a whole lot to worry about. They were also. It was like, kind of like uncharacteristic man coverage call on the play to Surat, too. It was like a tough spot. Jermaine Matthews in the slot against one of the better receivers in the country on a back shoulder throw where both the quarterback and receiver tend to thrive. It was like, I, we got. You got to make the play no matter what position you're put in. But I, I also thought the call maybe could have put Jermaine in a better spot there than he was put in. Yeah.
- [19:56]
Doug Lam Reese
So I, I think that's fair. And again, just where we started the conversation, that it's not at the Marshawn Lattimore, Denzel Ward level, but I think they have good, solid cornerback play. And it just, it was a little odd how some of the penalty stuff just kind of cropped up late. Again, I think I've said I thought maybe a little bit of it was just like some things that they'd been doing all year suddenly started getting called. So Davison had two penalties against Michigan and Jermaine Matthews had two against Rutgers and two against Michigan. And so like, that's just like. And they're just a little. When they run next to a receiver, they are on him. They often have hands on guys when they're running with the guy. And I felt like, again, as we discussed it, most of the year, a lot of times when you get called is when you're grabbing a guy, when he's making a break, he's. He's making a move. And you can see the poll. You can see a jersey tug. If you're just being physical and running with the guy and maybe like being aware of where the ball is, you can kind of put, I think, put hands on guys sometimes and get away with it. I thought they'd done that all year and then like doing the same thing. They got called for it the last couple weeks, and I don't know what that is, but I think it's not exactly that like, all of a sudden they started getting beaten, grabbing guys. I just think they played the way they played, and this time the refs called it.
- [21:19]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think that's. That's probably how I see it, too. And we'll see. Like, they're going to get some different officiating crews now in the postseason. Like, probably they're not going to see Big Ten refs, I'd imagine, the rest of the year, so. Well, while fresh eyes mean they're going to get called for more or called for less, I. I actually, I don't know the answer to that, but there were definitely times earlier in the year where I thought, like, that's something Davidson would have got penalized for last year, and for whatever reason, he didn't get penalized for it early in the season. He's just. I think he's a hard player to officiate, too, because he's so long. Yes, that's less true of Jermaine. I also think Jermaine's penalties have been, like, a slightly different variety. I don't like, it's. It's worth monitoring because it has crept up here lately. I, I don't know that I'm, like, overly concerned about it going into the postseason.
- [22:11]
Doug Lam Reese
Okay. Third corner, Lorenzo Styles in the slot by. Pff. Snapshot. They have him with 218 at slot corner, 47 in the box, which is like, almost like a linebacker, depending what, like the alignment is. Six at outside corner and 118 at free safety. So kind of like two to one more slot corner than deep safety that he goes to that deep safety spot when they're playing more of a dime package. And maybe they're dropping Jermaine Matthews inside and putting Devin Sanchez on the field as a second outside corner. But he's a corner and gave up like the big long touchdown against Ohio and then got hit on one against Indiana. Right. Like, those are kind of the. Maybe the two that stand out for Lorenzo Styles. But I felt like we were questioning it more early in the year, and then coverage in the slot in the second half of the year has not been quite at the forefront of the discussion of where can Ohio State get better.
- [23:13]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I, I think that's right. I, I think. I think the runs has been pretty good. Like, I, I was like, probably a number one hater in, like, in terms of, like, beat beat writers for Lorenzo, just not, not confident at all in his ability to cover at that position. And, you know, he's not been perfect. But even I, you know, we mentioned it on the, on the other top 22 show like the, the catch that he gave up. I thought he played well. Sometimes a guy makes the catch. So I think he's, I, I think he's been solid. Like, I, I think he had like a bit of a deficiency in his game and he looks like he worked on it. So like I, that's always good to see when a player does it. So yeah, he's a really important player for them. I, I would give him, I'd probably give him a slightly higher grade than I would give Jerry Matthews for the season.
- [24:03]
Doug Lam Reese
Interesting. Okay. And, and again, like he gave up a 67 yard touchdown against Ohio U. It was like Ohio's only touchdown according to pff. It's the only touchdown he's allowed this year. So it's just like one of those like, oh, oh, oh, Mr. Slot corner. I hear you gave up a touchdown this year. It's like, yeah, I'm a quarterback.
- [24:21]
Bill Landis
We give up. They haven't played a ton of great slot receivers. They could end up playing a really, really good one if they play like we're recording this before we know who they're playing. But like either way, like either opponent gives them, I think a decent matchup in the slots. That'll be something to monitor. But no, I think, I think he's, he's been checking a lot of boxes this year and like he'll, maybe teams will try to attack him, but it didn't, it hasn't really felt like that throughout the year. Like here, here and there, he'll give up something. But like it's, it's hard. It's the hardest defensive back position to play. I think, I think any DB will tell you that because the receiver can run two ways instead of one way. So it can be, it can be pret challenging. And I think, I think for the most part he's done a pretty good job. Yeah.
- [25:07]
Doug Lam Reese
And again, this guy's a receiver. This is a bunch of, this is a mid career. Not only transferred from Notre Dame, he changed positions when he did so and it took a little time and, and I think maybe even like from where he was at the beginning of the year to now, you can see that a little bit that like we've talked about that with Sonny Styles as a linebacker. It's like you change position and it's like, oh, you changed position and now you're good to go. And it's like, it's, it's a continuing process and I think you could look at Lorenzo Styles, the back half of this season to the front half of the season. And I think just getting more accustomed to playing defense in college football is, Is maybe part of that explanation. But yeah, potentially. I think you make a good point about the slots they, They've played this year and haven't played. But they also have some options if they need to get down to business and maybe want to try to do. He's just a little bit more of a physical player. Right. Like, because Lorenzo Styles will also come up and hit you. Right. So he's not like a tin like guy who's, who's just like a little wiry guy who's gonna glue himself. You're gonna fall on whatever because he's a little bit. But if you had a guy like that, then that guy might get. Getting run over in the run game if you try to spread out and run and like, you're not going to run over Lorenzo Styles.
- [26:18]
Bill Landis
No. And I'll be interested to see because I. He'll. He'll get a chance to play in the NFL because he's so athletic. If the NFL views him just more as a straight safety, like a kind of like a strong safety type. I think they might.
- [26:30]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah. Yeah. And I think again, like, well, like the way this worked out, you know, there have been times where it's like, would they be better off? I think I've said it. Maybe we both said it sometime this year. Would they be better off just playing Jermaine Matthews in the slot and playing Devin Sanchez or somebody else outside? Then it felt like, no, I don't know that they have a third outside corner who's ready to play every snap.
- [26:49]
Bill Landis
Playing their, their five best DBs.
- [26:53]
Doug Lam Reese
And I think there, maybe at some point this season there was a question about that. I don't think that's a question anymore.
- [26:59]
Bill Landis
No, no. And, and maybe like if. If it turned out that for whatever reason Jayla McLean wasn't one of their best five DBs and Devin Sanchez was, then maybe Sanchez will play outside, Matthews would play nickel, and Lorenzo would play safety. But that's not the case. Yeah, this is the, this is what we get.
- [27:18]
Doug Lam Reese
And so like the, the other corner that we have to at least talk about a little bit is as a true freshman, a five star recruit. It's hard to play as a freshman. And I do think. Would you say playing receiver as a true freshman and playing corner as a true freshman is actually quite a different deal?
- [27:31]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think, I think corner's pretty tough. Yeah.
- [27:34]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah. Because like, receivers like you're big, you're strong, you're fast. If the ball comes your way, try to catch it. And corner is like, what's your technique? How's your backpedal? Are we a man? Are we in zone? What's your responsibility here? If this guy goes here now you right? It's a completely. So there were some comparisons I think justifiable before the year of, like, you look at what Jeremiah Smith did as a five star true freshman at receiver in 2024. Could Devin Sanchez be the equivalent of that at corner in 25? And the answer is no. First of all because Jeremiah Smith is a rare dude. But second of all, because corner is harder. Corner is significantly harder, Bill. And like, so, yeah, also when, like.
- [28:12]
Bill Landis
If Ohio State was, whatever this were the Kerry Combs days and they were press quarters all the time, maybe it's different, but they're not. So like, like with as much zone as Ohio State plays, I think, like, this responsibility has become a little more complicated.
- [28:26]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah, right to your, yeah. If it's just like, hey, see this guy right here? Run with him and don't let him catch.
- [28:31]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [28:31]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah, that's, that's not what this is. So we've seen this again, sort of wondering, hey, I, I, I think it was reasonable to get to the point of, hey, actually like this if, if they would, because Lorenzo Styles did miss a game and they played against Illinois where Devin Sanchez played basically every snap. Devin Sanchez played 67 snaps against Illinois because Jermaine Ma started in the slot. Devin Sanchez started outside and basically didn't come off the field. That's his one start this year. And it was like, man, if they would need to go to that, like, when it happened, it was like, oh, man, could this be a solution? Then it was like, no, it's not a solution. It's not as good. And then I think Lorenzo Styles proved that he's part of the solution. And then we also got to the point of like, man, if they get in a spot where they really have to have Devin Sanchez on the field, they might see teams pick on him. Right. Did you get to that point?
- [29:21]
Bill Landis
Yes, I think that I would say that, like, every young corner probably encounters that. So there's no, there's no saying that if that were to happen, that it could have looked a little dicey early on, but then Devin Sanchez could have grown through it too, right?
- [29:36]
Doug Lam Reese
Yep.
- [29:37]
Bill Landis
That's, that's sort of like playing, playing the position, and that's something you have to learn from, I think. But Ohio State is fortunate that, like, they don't have to put a freshman in that situation, so they didn't kind of belabor the point. But I also, like, I don't. I, I think, like, people have seen some of Devin's, I guess you call it struggles. I wouldn't say he struggled overall, but he has had some struggles. See that and say, like, well, this guy's not who we thought he was. I'm not there with him. I just think, like, he's a young guy playing a hard spot for a freshman and has put into some. Some key moments and had not performed to the level that he or Ohio State would like. But I think the hope in that happening is that when he has to start next year, more than likely he'll be better off for it.
- [30:19]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah, I think it's. Yeah, pure young guy struggles. I don't, I don't think there's anything else to assign to that, but it's just, again, they've made a choice here. Devin Sanchez. Devin Sanchez played 11 snaps against Texas in his first game on a college campus.
- [30:33]
Bill Landis
I think Devin Sanchez is one of the better examples of, like, some of these guys, you got to pay them a lot when they're coming out of high school. And I think if you're paying them a lot, you're going to play them interesting. You're going to see what, you're going to see what that looks like. And maybe it might not look great, but when you're investing in these players, the way that Ryan Day has put it, I think you got. You gotta find out early. Yeah. I think you can let a guy sit on the bench all year and wonder whether or not your investment's worth it.
- [30:59]
Doug Lam Reese
I think that's well said. 11 snaps, 23 against Grambling, 27, 10, 15, 67. And his one start, 28, 16, 16, 29, 28 against Michigan, five against Indiana. And Indiana was an 11 personnel all day. Right. This is not a, like a reflection of like, oh, well, they just didn't. They. I think I've made a decision that they are not going to that dime look as much as they were early in the year where it felt like if they, if they were expecting, if it was a third, third and long passing situation, they almost kind of defaulted. I don't know. Kind of. They defaulted. They went to their dime look, and, and they put 60 B's on the field. And I don't like. That's not where they are as much now. Right.
- [31:42]
Bill Landis
I. I'm not saying you're. You're wrong. Necessarily. But I'm just pulling up the Indiana game because Omar Cooper got hurt very early. So like Surat played 54 and Charlie Becker played 38 snaps in that game but Omar Cooper only played six and like while while Indiana did stay in 11 personnel like once, once you get past our top three receivers, they're not especially deep so and, and neither is Michigan. So if you're, if you're playing I wonder if Devin Sanchez like lack of snaps is at all reflection of Omar Cooper being injured.
- [32:26]
Doug Lam Reese
Okay.
- [32:26]
Bill Landis
Would they have played more dime if he were available? I don't know the answer.
- [32:29]
Doug Lam Reese
Okay.
- [32:32]
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- [33:19]
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- [33:51]
Doug Lam Reese
Bryce west and Aaron Scott did not play against either Michigan or Indiana. So like that is it's not a change there those guys who, who are young, you know, younger corners, not as young as Devin Sanchez, but maybe it was like oh are they going to get more of an opportunity? And they were getting a little more of a run against you know in the in the Purdue, UCLA Rutgers trio of games and and didn't happen when it, when it you know it was go time for those two games. So it'd be very interesting to monitor how much Devin Sanchez plays in the playoff. My guess would still be not not a ton that they would just prefer you know I do think they like sometimes Lorenzo Styles in that Deep spot. And then that lets Caleb Downs roam a little bit more. But I don't. I don't know. I don't know if it's worth the trade off.
- [34:39]
Bill Landis
I. I think I am with you. And I would. I would guess they probably don't play a ton of dimensions.
- [34:44]
Doug Lam Reese
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's go to our cornerback grades. We asked the Substack subscribers 1 to 100. One is not great. 100 is spectacular. Where are you for the cornerback group? What do you think? They said.
- [35:05]
Bill Landis
82. You're so good.
- [35:07]
Doug Lam Reese
83.
- [35:08]
Bill Landis
Nice.
- [35:09]
Doug Lam Reese
83. I think I'm an 80.
- [35:13]
Bill Landis
Yeah. This feels like I'm 80. I'm 84. I think we're all kind of in the same neighborhood.
- [35:18]
Doug Lam Reese
Okay, so we'll do one of the other shows. I'll, I'll. Adam, we'll. We'll say what the final rankings were. Other position groups. I'm not, I'm not going to do it today. I'm not prepared to do it today. But we will. We'll get that to you guys. That's an 82 average. 82.3. But we'll call it 82 is the average. Okay, we gotta. We know this team. We already did.
- [35:42]
Bill Landis
But what do you think? Just like, like future wise. So Iguinos. It has to go to the league. I think, I think you and I probably agree that Jermaine Matthews is coming back or what would assume that Devin Sanchez steps up into the other. The open starting outside corner role. Right. And they also have to figure out nickel because Lorenzo Styles is out of eligibility. So like a nickel is the interesting one, I think.
- [36:05]
Doug Lam Reese
Have you. We've seen the opposite way where a nickel, where a slot guy goes outside. Like that happened with Sean Wade. Right. Is there any chance you could see it the other way and you could have Jermaine Matthews be the nickel next year? Like, would that make any sense that you want to. For him? You want to be able to show the NFL both he's shown outside corner and now let's show him nickel because maybe he's a nickel in the league. I don't know. But also I, I could see, maybe could you make the case that that has a chance to be what's best for the Ohio state secondary in 2026?
- [36:43]
Bill Landis
I think his versatility helps remains and I think maybe the situation we could be looking at is sort of like Bryce West, Aaron Scott, Devin Sanchez. Show us what you got. We're picking two of you. And depending on how that shakes out, Jermaine could play Inside or outside? Like, if it's, if it's. I actually think Aaron Scott could play nickel too. And, But I think Bryce west is maybe more of a nickel just based off his size. So, like, if it's, if it's west and, like, maybe he's the nickel and Jermaine's outside, if it's Scott, I guess it can go either way. I don't think Sanchez is an inside guy, so he's, he's, he's outside. I also think, like, either of these incoming freshman corners, Jay Timmons or Jordan Thomas, like, might have something to say about who's on the field next year.
- [37:32]
Doug Lam Reese
But what, what, what does the Devin Sanchez experience this year tell us about that? Like, it's not like they have a long history of playing true freshman corners. Is that telling us that?
- [37:41]
Bill Landis
But I, I think with Timmons, especially if, if, if, like, large investment equals early playing time, if, if anything to, like, find out, I think that could get Timmins on the field early.
- [37:55]
Doug Lam Reese
So you think, like, in a Devin Sanchez type role where you're playing 20 snaps a game where you, you have a package that you're part of, but you're not necessarily competing to start in the base 11.
- [38:04]
Bill Landis
Yeah, probably not quite that, at least not from the, at the beginning of the season. But it's, it's just such, it's going to be, it's going to be germane and. Because I would even say, like, like Devin's played some, but he's not played a ton, so it's like germane and a bunch of guys who haven't played a whole lot. And like, when you, when you just have a large group of pretty talented young players who are in similar positions, sort of like anything can happen. So, like, I just, I would keep a bit of an open mind to that room of shaking out in any number of ways.
- [38:33]
Doug Lam Reese
Jay Timmons from Pennsylvania, the number 64 overall recruit in this class. Jordan Thomas from New Jersey, the 123 overall recruit in this class. So not quite Devin Sanchez, who was like a top 20 player and a five star, but, like, very highly rated guys.
- [38:48]
Bill Landis
Was that at Rivals, wasn't he?
- [38:51]
Doug Lam Reese
I don't know.
- [38:52]
Bill Landis
Jay Timmons on Rivals.
- [38:53]
Doug Lam Reese
How many?
- [38:54]
Bill Landis
Formerly on three. Number five corner and number 42 overall. Okay, that's wrong. That's his Rivals. He is number 12 overall and the number one corner.
- [39:06]
Doug Lam Reese
Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. Number one corner, according to rivals, number one corner in the country. Okay, okay. So I think that's smart to think about that, about it that way. Like, is he. Is he the Devin Sanchez of this year but not more? I just don't. Hey, Jay Timmons is going to come in and win a job, and the starting corners are going to be Devin Sanchez, Jermaine Matthews, and J. Timmons. Like, that doesn't seem like that's. I don't think what you're saying, but that would not be an assumption.
- [39:32]
Bill Landis
No, because I think, like, I like Bryce west and I think Aaron Scott still has a bright future. It's kind of. It's probably go time for Aaron Scott in 2026, but also Aaron Scott, like.
- [39:45]
Doug Lam Reese
A lot, A lot of praise on special teams this year, which everybody always says, like, translates and that matters. So, like, that. That's a real thing. Like, he's. It is go time, but also he's doing what he can. He's. He's making his mark, you know, reminding people of stuff this year. So.
- [40:00]
Bill Landis
Yeah, he has played 97 special team snaps.
- [40:07]
Doug Lam Reese
Okay, sure. I mean, Ryan, Ryan Day has singled him out, like, I think more than once for his kickoff coverage of being the first eye down the field and that kind of thing. So. Okay, so, like, should be okay. But, like, if there was like a, like a veteran corner who showed interest in Ohio State, would you ponder it?
- [40:26]
Bill Landis
I would. I would ponder it. Because I also wouldn't mind seeing them get back to the rotating days a little bit either. If I could see. I'd ponder it.
- [40:36]
Doug Lam Reese
And if. For some reason, some reason, if Jermaine Matthews decides to go to the NFL, I think they'd need to, because I don't know if you could be comfortable with Scott West, Sanchez and True Freshman as your best options. You'd want to have somebody.
- [40:50]
Bill Landis
Yeah, probably not.
- [40:52]
Doug Lam Reese
And also, last time you did that, you found Davis and Ibognos kind of. Kind of worked. So. Okay, that's. That's it for our Last position. Group breakdown. 82 overall. Great. As we said for the corners, you guys can just continue to hang out here on YouTube and on your favorite podcast feed, and we'll keep talking about Ohio State, but we're gonna have more direct things to talk about as we talk to Ohio State players and coaches here these next couple days in preparation for the Cotton Bowl. So it's not going to just be us looking back and grading stuff. It's going to be like, hey, Matt, Patricia said this and, you know, Julian Saying said this. Like, we're going to talk about that. So again, go try the substack. Bill and Doug OSU substack.com like, subscribe tell a friend about the YouTube show, about the podcast feed. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug lamerese, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.
- [41:52]
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- [41:54]
Doug Lam Reese
Just a regular guy.
- [41:55]
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