Ohio State defensive line grades: Kayden McDonald & Caden Curry breakouts; need to hit DL in portal?

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Defensive Line Grades & Breakouts

Episode Date: December 17, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis
Podcast Network: Blue Wire

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Bill and Doug Show dives deep into the 2025 Ohio State Buckeyes defensive line: evaluating its performance, individual player breakouts—especially Kaden McDonald and Caden Curry—and discussing whether the team needs to look for more defensive line help in the transfer portal. Doug and Bill provide high-level analytics, historical context, inside stories, and plenty of big-picture perspective about a unit that has driven Ohio State's championship defense. They also reflect on depth issues, project next year’s D-line, and hand out position group grades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defensive Line Historical Context & Pressures

• Pressure Leaders Since 2019 (01:21–03:05)
  • Chase Young: 51 pressures before the playoffs in 2019.
  • Kaden Curry (2025): 45 pressures — "a gigantic jump in production."
  • Jack Sawyer (2024): Noted for a postseason surge; 42 pre-playoff, 64 by season's end.
  • Kenyatta Jackson (2025): 39 pressures pre-playoff.
  • This places Curry and Jackson among the most productive Ohio State edges of the playoff era.

"Chase in 19, Curry this year, Jack last year, Kenyatta this year [are] the top four." – Bill (02:00)

2. Kaden Curry’s Breakout & Perspective on Staying

• Transformation Story (04:01–05:21)
  • Curry had just 27 pressures in his previous three years combined; exploded for 45 in 2025.
  • His decision to stay, develop, and trust OSU’s process—rather than transfer—serves as a recruiting model.

"I needed to stay here to develop, to become sort of like the maximum version of myself." – Doug (04:41)

3. Comparing Curry to OSU Legends & True Value

• Statistical & Physical Context (06:00–07:28)
  • Curry’s pass rush win rate is strong (14.7%) but below Bosa/Young levels; still, he’s impactful and well-rounded.
  • Hosts urge not to hold the Bosa brothers/Chase Young as the standard for every OSU rusher.

"Is this a true statement? Kaden Curry is an excellent pass rusher. True or false?"
"True." – Doug and Bill (07:28)

4. Kenyatta Jackson & Edge Depth

• Jackson’s Role & Future (08:58–10:02)
  • "Playing his best football," especially late in the season (6.5 sacks, 11 TFLs).
  • Faces a decision on whether to stay or go pro; performance warrants consideration.

"He’s been really good … I think he has a tough decision coming up." – Bill (09:25)

• Behind the Starters: Atkinson, Grady, and Depth Concerns (10:20–11:29)
  • Bo Atkinson: Adequate but not impactful—“good stats, bad team” transfer.
  • Depth behind Curry/Jackson is minimal; Zion Grady (a true freshman) is next in line.
  • Situational options like Arvell Reese on the edge discussed, but neither host confident in untested backups during the playoff.

5. Snap Counts: Starters Carrying the Load

• Numbers Tell the Story (14:13–15:06)
  • Curry and Jackson almost never leave the field.
  • Edge rotation is “basically none”; expect the starters to play every meaningful playoff snap.

"Who's the edge depth in the playoff? It's like, there is none. The two starters play every single snap." – Doug (14:51)

6. Kaden McDonald: Interior Dominance

• Elite Tackle Play (15:36–17:50)
  • First-team All-American and Big Ten Defensive Lineman of the Year.
  • 57 tackles—second-most among Power 4 DTs. Combines stoutness and penetration.

"He looks like maybe the best defensive tackle in the country … If he were 6'4", I think people would talk about him that way." – Bill (16:48)

7. Defensive Tackle Rotation

• The Rotation & Production (17:51–20:39)
  • Edric Houston and Tywone Malone share the other DT spot; Will Smith sparsely used.
  • McDonald rarely comes off the field; depth is thin, but play level stays high.

8. Young Contributors & Arvell Reese’s Hybrid Role

• Reese’s Edge/Linebacker Usage (21:33–23:37)
  • Used more as a spy in recent weeks; pressures/sacks have tapered.
  • Hosts flag his utilization as a question for DC Matt Patricia.
  • Emphasize the philosophical shift—production matters more than pressures alone.

9. Defensive Line Transition & Need for Transfers

• Looking to 2026 & Transfer Portal (25:54–32:00)
  • Expect major roster turnover: Curry out of eligibility, McDonald almost certainly NFL-bound, Jackson likely declaring.
  • Youth (Zion Grady, Edric Houston, Will Smith) looks promising, but not enough experience or bodies.
  • Portal additions will be needed, especially at edge.

"They're gonna have to probably remake the edge position entirely and lose their best defensive tackle." – Bill (28:04)

10. Depth Philosophy & Grade Assignment

• Depth Philosophy (31:49–32:07)
  • Six-man rotations once a goal; now, necessity has forced a shorter bench—starters just play more.
• Grades for 2025 Defensive Line (32:09–36:00)
  • Bill: 91/100 ("They have two All-Americans.")
  • Doug: 86/100 (after revising up; "Comparisons to Bosa, Young, and Downs aren't fair.")
  • Subscribers’ average: 88/100

"It's not super deep, but also sometimes when it's like…who cares? They're really good." – Doug (35:33)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Curry’s Breakout
  "He had 27 pressures in his first three years and he has 45 this year. He's doubled his production." – Bill (04:01)
• On Defensive Tackle Tackling
  "That's why their linebackers don't have 150 tackles. And that's why Caleb Downs—for instance—had over 100 tackles at Alabama and fewer [here]." – Bill (16:14)
• On Depth
  "If you're at all considering taking Kenyatta or Kaden off the field, then Zion Grady should be the next guy in...But I don't think it's C.J. Hicks. I'm not gonna be the guy who says get ready for the guy who hasn't played all year." – Bill (11:29)
• On Defensive Line Reputation
  "We clearly had a three-year stretch where the number one conversation around the OSU defensive line was: 'They get pressures but not production.' We are out of that." – Doug (23:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:21–03:05: Pressure stats since 2019; Curry/Jackson historical placement
• 04:01–05:21: Kaden Curry’s developmental story
• 08:58–10:02: Kenyatta Jackson’s growth and NFL decision
• 10:20–11:29: Depth discussion; edge rotations and limitations
• 14:13–15:06: Snap counts—starters barely leaving the field
• 15:36–17:50: Kaden McDonald’s All-American campaign, tackling stats
• 21:33–23:37: Arvell Reese’s reduced pass rush role and host strategy questions
• 25:54–32:00: Projecting 2026 D-line, need to hit the portal
• 32:09–36:00: Final grades and summary discussion on depth vs. star power

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Episode Tone & Style

Doug and Bill maintain their trademark conversational style, blending sharp football analytics with playful, relatable banter. Their approach is informed, irreverent, and fan-centric, always looping back to big picture program health and how the nuts and bolts of the defensive line impact championship aspirations.

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Summary Takeaways

• The 2025 defensive line is among OSU’s very best of the playoff era, led by massive senior breakouts (Curry, Jackson, McDonald).
• Depth is a legitimate concern—most snaps go to the stars, with little behind them.
• The hosts expect major departures (Curry, McDonald, possibly Jackson), making the transfer portal critical.
• The line earns high grades (86–91) for production and impact, with the only real knock being limited depth.
• The hosts emphasize the importance of contextualizing current stars outside the shadows of Bosa/Young, and highlight the benefit of player retention and development in the current NCAA landscape.

Transcript

[A]

The College Football Playoff is everything. Toughness, growth, sacrifices. Life's your focus.

[B]

This is where I think everything you.

[A]

Got all day today.

[B]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[A]

Be physical, be playing. We are the winners. Tulane takes on Ole Miss, followed by James Madison in Oregon. It's time to bring it first round.

[B]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented.

[A]

By allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO. Max, are you ready? Let's get em. With so many options out there, recovering from a workout can start to feel like its own workout. At Anytime Fitness, we use your body composition scan to make a smarter recovery plan, one made for you. So stop guessing and join Anytime Fitness today. Foreign. Doug Show, Bill Landis and Doug Lay Marie. Defensive line today on a position group breakdowns. We've done special teams, we've done safeties, we've done offensive line, we've done quarterbacks. Bill, you did all the research here. Are they pretty good or what?

[B]

Yeah, they're pretty good. I want to ask you a question off the rip here that I think will encapsulate kind of how good they've been, especially in one specific area. I went back to 2019 and looked at the guys who had the most pressures, quarterback pressures, before the team went into the playoff.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I think everyone would assume rightfully that Chase Young is number one on that list.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Who do you think number two is?

[A]

Oh, no. I guess if you're asking it's Kaden.

[B]

Curry, who do you think number three is?

[A]

Kenyatta Jackson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, wait, no, no. Well, I'm sorry, he's four. I can't read my own notes. He's fourth, but up there. So here, here are the numbers. Chase Young had 51 pressures before Ohio State went to the playoff in 2019, finished with 56. Kaden Curry has 45 pressures, which is like kind of an insane number for Kaden Curry. Just like a gigantic, gigantic jump in production for Kaden Curry. Yes, we'll talk about Jack Sawyer last year had he had 42 before the playoff and he finished with 64. He went nuts in the postseason. And then Kenyatta Jackson has 39 right now before the playoffs. So Chase in 19, Curry this year, Jack last year, Kenyatta this year is the top four. And then fifth is JT to him, Olawao, who had 31 last year before the playoff.

[A]

Okay, that is quite a thing. That's like we've been talking a lot about Will Howard. Playoff elevation, Jack Sawyer. Playoff elevation. My goodness.

[B]

No one elated like Jack.

[A]

Yeah, hang it up in the Rushman room, baby. Like that is. That is some something to shoot for. I still don't have the right picture of Kaden Curry in my head and I apologize. And it's just because he didn't come in doing this like gangbusters. And it's also because the Bosa brothers and Chase Young laid something down that is an impossible standard that is not worth using as a standard for Ohio State pass rushers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it has affected my, my appreciation, I think, of what Cade Curry has done this year, even though he's a first team all American.

[B]

He is. Yeah, sorry. He's might have a tree.

[A]

He.

[B]

Well, like what are you, what are you supposed to do with this? He had 27 pressures in his first three years and he has 45 this year. He's doubled his production.

[A]

It really is remarkable. I think we talked a lot, you know that idea of in the Ohio State quarterback room that when Joe Burrow went on and had success as a transfer that you can sell that you can say, come here, we're going to help you, develop you, we're going to prepare you and we're going to get you ready for excellence. And it might be here, but if not, it'll be somewhere else. This Kaden Curry. I stuck around and again the conversation for senior day and I said, man, like, what happened everybody? He's like, yeah, it's crazy. And he was saying like I needed to stay here to develop, to become sort of like the maximum version of myself. And my goodness, what, what a legacy for Ohio State for any third year guy who's like. And not the transfer is a bad thing. But boy, oh boy, if Ohio State's trying to get somebody to stay who's been good but not great, a contributor but not a star, maybe they think if they go somewhere else they'll become the guy and have a better chance to flourish. And they have Kaden Curry talk to him and like that's a, that's a pretty persuasive pitch with what he's done this year.

[B]

Yeah, I think I'm trying to double check this. I think he's, he's the first guy since Chase to have double digit sacks in a regular season.

[A]

Really?

[B]

If you, if you think the conference championship games at the regular season. Yeah, okay. Ended up with double digit sacks last year, but he did it in 16 games and he was not double digits in the regular season.

[A]

And it's just like it's, he hit the Heisman Trophy winner so hard. I thought his season was over on the first play of the game, the Big Ten championship game.

[B]

He almost fundamentally changed like the entire trajectory of a college football season on the first. Yeah. The Big Ten championship with the, with.

[A]

A 100 legal clean hit. Yeah. That the Heisman Trophy winner later was like, yeah, that hurt. It's remarkable. And, and but you know I was just going through like some PFF stuff but like pass rush win rate. Like how often when you do pass rush do you sort of win and get pressure or whatever. Nick Bosa in 2017, his pass rush win rate was 26.5 which is just ridiculous. Chase Young in 2019 was 26.6 which is just ridiculous. Tyreek Smith 23 in 2020, which is shout out to Tyreek Smith.

[B]

He was when I was going through some of the pressure stuff. But Tyreek Smith had back to back years of 30 plus pressures.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and only what was. I'm looking at this 17 games total between 2020 and 2021 and he had 69 pressures. Yeah.

[A]

So and so Kaden Curry is 14.7 this year which is like below Jack the last two years. It's below Zach Harrison in 22. It's below Tyreek in 21. But it's still very good. But it's just hard because it's not Nick Bosa and it's not Chase Young and like no humans are like that. But he isn't. Is this a true statement? Cade Curry. Caden Curry is an excellent pass rusher. True or false?

[B]

True.

[A]

Okay then that's all that matters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why don't you take your stats and cram them lay Maurice, what are you doing?

[B]

And they're like a really good football player too. Just like well incredibly well rounded.

[A]

No doubt about like can also play the run. Can also like do his fill his responsibilities like all those things. Yes, that sometimes with the pass rusher you can get into that kind of conversation. Excellent football player. Excellent.

[B]

He. He's a I, I. One of my favorite stats like to kind of judge defensive lineman on is that the PFF stops number just like how many times does has what you've done resulted in like an a negative play for the offense. It doesn't necessarily mean like tackles for lost like the offense like wasn't didn't get accomplished what it was trying to do on that play. Which like I guess can be a little subjective among like power. I think it was among Power Four defensive linemen who've played at least 200 snaps. Curry is second in that number. 38 stops this year since Chase Young.

[A]

I think there are some seasons where Ohio State would kill to have Kaden Curry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. When we were sort of in that stretch. Maybe like the 21, 22, 23 stretch of like, like they get close, but do they ever get to the quarterback? And it's like, oh, no, King Kerry gets there. So, yeah, I, I think that is. That really matters. Kenyatta Jackson. What's your view on Kenjada Jackson? The seasons he's had.

[B]

She's playing his, his best football. And I think maybe he has been like, he, he is playing his best season of his career, but I also think has kind of been playing his, like, best games toward the end of the season, too. So he's another guy, like, you think about, like, who might make the jumps in the postseason. Right. And because, like, Curry has been so good and so productive already, it might be hard for him to kind of like, exceed what he's already doing. And, But. And Jackson's been very productive, too. Jackson has six and a half sacks and 11 tackles for loss. But I think, like, maybe he could be the guy that makes that, like, kind of where did this come from? Sort of jump in the postseason based off how he's been playing down the stretch, I think, I think he's been. He's been really good. I, I wasn't, I wasn't entirely sure that he would play himself because he has one year of eligibility left. I wasn't sure if he'd play himself to the. To a point where he had, like, a really difficult decision to make, but I think he has. And I don't, I don't know what's going to happen with him, but he's played well enough, I think, like, to earn that. Being a hard decision.

[A]

Yeah. And again, just also like a very good football player. Right. Not a pass rush specialist who can only do one thing. They've really been the guys. Bo Atkinson and Zion Grady are the next guys up at rush end. Like, they're fine, but they're it.

[B]

I think Atkinson's a miss. I think Atkinson is probably a miss.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

He's not made. He's not made. He's not made an impact.

[A]

People got a little excited. I think people got a little too excited about him. Again, this is like, we just, we just. Some people were a little out over their skis on Bo Atkinson because whatever. He was in the ACC last year, and it's like, that was like a bad defense and a weird team and they had nobody, and he was the only productive guy. But this Again, is like, they. Bo Atkinson and Logan George were kind of felt like very necessary additions at edge rusher in the transfer portal. And Logan George has just been hurt the whole season and basically hasn't played. Has played in three games. And Bo Atkinson is just fine. Like, thank goodness that Kaden Curry and Kenyatta Jackson in year four are both having by far their best seasons. Or Ohio State, we'd be looking around going, like, why doesn't Ohio State get any pressure on the quarterback?

[B]

I don't. Yeah, it'd be interesting to kind of ponder what world we'd be living in. Would we be living in a world where Arvell Reese is, like, exclusively defensive end? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. You sort of. Well, they need a defensive end depth, I guess.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Atkinson gives him a little bit of that, but, like, he's just. I think you're right. He was maybe more of a good stats, bad team kind of player. And, like, that happens sometimes. Serves a purpose, I suppose. But I'm not expecting him to get much in the way of meaningful snaps in the postseason. Which I guess brings up the question of, like, is there enough defensive end depth? Right. Like, do you have. It'd be a heck of a thing to have, like, one more guy to throw in there. And maybe it's Ian Grady. He's a true freshman. I think he's played well when they've played him, they just. They've. They've not put a ton on his plate. But I. I think they should be at the point where if they're at all considering taking Kenyatta or Kaden off the field, then Zion Grady should be the next guy in based. Based off how. How guys have played this year. Because I don't think. I don't think it's C.J. hicks. No, I just, like, again, I'm not. I'm just not gonna be the guy who says, get ready for the guy who hasn't played all year kind of. Kind of thing. And I'll be happy to be wrong about that, but I'm just not holding out hope for it. So, yeah, I. I'll. I'm. I'm curious to see what, if any, expanded role there might be for Zion Grady. And I'm talking, like, you know, playing 10 snaps a game or something like that to spell the two starters. But they do not have much behind those two at the moment, which I guess we knew coming into the year, or at least, you know, new could be a possibility coming into the year. But it's definitely kind of hit you across the face these last couple of games when Jackson and Curry basically haven't come off the field. Some things in life are just made for each other.

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[B]

This is where I 50 everything you.

[A]

Got all day today.

[B]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[A]

Chilean takes on Ole Miss followed by James Madison in Oregon. It's time to bring it first round.

[B]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented.

[A]

By allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO. Max, are you ready? Well like for instance, so 550 total number of snaps for Kaden Curry this year 486 for Kenyatta Jackson 214 for Bo Atkinson 101 for for Zion Grady. I think I'm looking at this right. But like did they did did Jackson and Curry not come off the field in the Michigan game?

[B]

That is correct. Yeah.

[A]

So. So that also might be the answer. It's like well who's the defensive edge? Who's the edge depth in the playoff? It's like there is none the two starters play every single snap. I actually might bet on that.

[B]

Yeah, I think I would too. And like well I guess the other thing like I haven't gone and looked at this and it didn't happen in the machine game. Like you could put Arvel on the edge in like a four man front and play Peyton Pierce for a cup for like a snap or two to steal some some rest for those guys that way. But yeah, I would just assume that Curry and Jackson are playing every meaningful snap in the postseason. Which probably means they're playing every snap in the postseason.

[A]

Yeah. Okay tackle, let's start with Kaden McDonald. Best defensive lineman in the Big Ten, a first team All American and just an awesome story.

[B]

Incredible player. I actually I he's a guy you watching like man he makes a lot of tackles but I've never actually looked up how many tackles he makes relative to the other players at his position. There's one other tackle in the power four that has more. More. One other defensive tackle in the Power 4 that has more tackles than him. McDonald has 57 tackles for an interior defensive lineman, which is absurd.

[A]

It's absurd.

[B]

Tylee Williams did some of this, too, actually, like, for a couple years now, Ohio State's defensive linemen have been really good tacklers. That's why their linebackers don't have 150 tackles. And that's why Caleb Downs, for instance, like, had over 100 tackles at Alabama and has fewer than that at Ohio State. It's because guys up front tackle better or tackle more.

[A]

So did you just throw some shade on Alabama defensive tackles? Because if you did, I'm here for it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I just think it's important to do that to, you know, it's providing context when your safety is making a lot of tackles. That's probably not a good thing.

[A]

Not bad.

[B]

Yeah. But, Katie, McDonald's great. He's like, I don't like. I. I really liked what he did last year, so I had pretty high hopes for him, but he's exceeded those even. I. I think there are. There are plenty of moments throughout the season where he looks like maybe the best defensive tackle in the country. And if he were 6, 4, I think people would talk about him that way, but he's not. So he kind of. I mean, he's an All American, and he was a Big Ten defensive lineman of the year, but I even think so nationally, he might. He might fly under the radar a little bit. He said, at the very least, like, when people talk about some of these incredibly disruptive defensive line players across the country, his name does not come up enough. Even if he's getting some of the. Some of the. Due respect, I don't think his name comes up enough.

[A]

Yeah, and he's, like, kind of everything, right? Like, he's stout, but he also penetrates. Like, sometimes you're a gap filler and you.

[B]

Yeah, you.

[A]

You hold your ground. And sometimes you're like a. A wiggly little guy who shoots gaps and gets in the backfield. But he's kind of. He's kind of both, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Which is. He's. He's excellent. And just. Just a tremendous story all around. Like, he can't. Cannot give enough credit for what. What he's done this season and. And then it really anymore. And again, just looking at the Michigan and Indiana games, total number of snaps in those two games for defensive tackles. Kaden McDonald 80, which is a ton. Edric Houston 52, Taiwan Malone 49, Will Smith 13. And that's it. So they really have kind of gotten down to Kaden McDonald basically doesn't come off the field maybe for a series or two, more like maybe one series for Will Smith. And then Edric Houston and Taiwan Malone share the other spot, and that's how they're rolling at defensive tackle. And that's really kind of what it's been that they. They kind of have 10 starters on defense, and then they. They have a rotation at the second defensive tackle spot with Houston and Malone. How do you think that's playing out and working out at the moment?

[B]

Pretty good, I think. I. I guess I would say that, you know, we've. I think we had some conversations and, and Ryan David said as much, that it felt like Edric Houston was turning the corner a little bit, kind of around the, like, Wisconsin game, maybe. And I think he has especially, like, compared to what he was to start the season. I think. I think he is significantly better. I, I would maybe say that he hasn't quite hit the stride that I thought he might once he started turning the corner. But I do, I do think he's. He's a much improved player. And maybe, you know, maybe this is the time that he really starts to turn it on sometime. The rest and recover and study and all that stuff. And he's only a sophomore, so.

[A]

So.

[B]

And he's still in his first year playing tackle, so I think he could make a jump. I think Malone's been solid. I think Will Smith could probably play more, to be honest. I wonder if it isn't. I wonder if he's been. If it's like a durability thing or, or not even durability, but like, just like having. Having his legs under him necessarily, because, like, he hasn't. He didn't play a ton prior to this year.

[A]

Younger guy, not gigantic, maybe wearing down at the end of a long regular season. If he gets his or his breath here for three and a half weeks, he could. Maybe they can play him more in the.

[B]

Yeah, I think so because he was like, he was above. Like, here's, here's a snap count by game, like 16 against Texas, 18 against Grambling, 22 against Ohio, only nine against Washington. But he played 22 against Minnesota, 32 against Illinois, only five against Wisconsin, 17 against Penn State, 15 against Purdue, 20 against UCLA, 27 against Rutgers. And then he played eight against Michigan and five against Indiana.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, if you look at his PFF grades or whatever, like, like they're, they're going in the wrong direction, I guess. But I, I think he's been pretty good for them. Like, like surprisingly stout run defender. We do think of him as like this little guy. I don't think he's tall, he's just not 340 pounds. He's more like, he's like 6, 4, 2, 90 probably, but he's kind of built like a fire hydrant. But I think he's good. Like, I think he's given us some really good moments this year and, and can be useful in the postseason. So. And I think, you know, he's, he's the backup to Kaden McDonald, so as much as you can keep Katie McDonald fresh, like, obviously you want to do that because he's, I mean, at times it feels like Katie McDonald might be their best defensive player. So I don't, I don't know that I love him having to play every single snap for a three game stretch. So if you want to avoid that, then Will Smith has to play a little bit more. But I think he's shown himself capable of doing that.

[A]

Yeah. So we're gonna do linebackers and we'll mostly talk about Arvel Reese in the linebacker conversation. Is there, is there a reason to talk about him here? For the moments when he is up on the line of scrimmage. But also that feels like that's been reduced in the second half of the season.

[B]

Yeah, I mean he, there's definitely times where he's basically defensive end a fair amount. I was, I actually went back and watched every snap of the Indiana game that Arvel played, just like kind of taking note of when he was on the ball, when he was off the ball, what he was asked to do, that kind of stuff. Because as I think a lot of people have noticed, his numbers have tapered off here a bit in terms of like pressures and sacks and all that stuff. He's being asked to spy a lot.

[A]

He is. So did you catch the play though, where they didn't. They, they sort of like rushed him from an edge spot and ran the other way and broke off a big run on one play. And it was like, oh man, they really got him there. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I think there were, there was a lot of running away from him, like when he was on the line and it was a run call, the call did not go toward him more often than not. And there was a lot of. He's on the ball in a passing situation and then he's just dropping out and spying or playing his own. But the couple times like they, I have like highlighted. I just like highlighted the plays in green where I thought they like, they kind of let him go. And on all three, he made something happen. On all three, he made Fernando Mendoza like throw the ball away. Didn't sack him, but made him throw the ball away.

[A]

We are going to get Matt Patricia for the. When's the last time we talked to Matt Patricia?

[B]

First by a week, I think.

[A]

Okay, we're gonna get him next week because the bowl requires. The playoff requires that we talk to the offensive coordinator and the defensive coordinator. And that's my number one question for Matt Patricia.

[B]

Yes, me too. Yeah.

[A]

The usage of Arvell Reese and the strategy and reasoning behind it.

[B]

So that's why like, I wanted to, I wanted to go watch that and like catalog it and then like save it to see what he says about it.

[A]

I was gonna fly blind and just like be confrontational.

[B]

Sure, sure. I have to be, I have to be nice though, because I was mean to him when he got hired.

[A]

So overall, like, I do think we clearly it was like again, like a three year stretch where the number one conversation around the Ohio State defensive line was they get pressures but they don't get production. And we are out of that. I think Jack Sawyer yanked us out of that conversation in the playoff last year. And then this group of guys turning over the entire defensive line roster. Think of how good those, those four guys who played almost every snap last year, how good they were and that here Ohio State is with all basically new guys in. It's certainly in new roles. It's a, it's a huge credit to Kenyatta, Jackson and Kaden Curry in particular as fourth year guys who didn't give up, who didn't bolt, who stuck around and are being incredibly productive right now. And then the leap that Kaden McDonald has made is just a remarkable story. But like, like you pretty. Pretty without a Chase Young or a Bosa. Pretty good defensive line.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think so. And one other thing, because you can go back through the years, I guess, and look at like sacks per game and there are years where they're higher than, than this current season. But I like that, you know, they're, they're not filling it up like in empty moments. Right. Like they had. There were. And it's not all defensive line, I guess, but like they had six sacks on the road at Washington. They had four sacks on the road at Illinois, they had four sacks against Penn State. They only had one at Michigan, but then they had three against Indiana. And again Fernando Mendoza and I thought like, like pressured him a lot. Like got him, got him off a spot, made him throw it away a couple times, hit him, almost knocked him out of the game. Right. Like, it's not. If this was a defensive line that had a decent number of sacks, but they were all coming against like Purdue and UCLA and Rutgers. I think we'd point that out. But with the exception of like the Texas game where they only had one, and Michigan where they only had one, but I thought played really well up front, they have kind of turned it on when the games matter the most.

[A]

Did I mention I'm wearing a Roebuck right now?

[B]

Looks good.

[A]

Looks comfy, sharp, comfy, casual. R H O B A C K dot com. You can get kind of like a black or a gray or a solid color like this. But you also go in there. Game day collection, you guys. I mentioned that before, the game day collection. I'm not sure I brought that up. You should go check it out. I have football teams there. R H O b a c k dot com. Holiday shopping. B a d 20. Get you 20 off your first order. What's the future look like here? Like, because if Cade McDonald winds up being a popping year three and go guy that's a little. Which he's going to. He's gonna be a first round pick. How can he stay? That's a little tough.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I mean I, I feel like everyone I've seen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of late. I mean I just don't. I don't know how you do it from an Ohio State standpoint of putting a package together to get him to stay. But. So I think we are. Curry's out of eligibility and Kenyatta Jackson you think would have a decision. Yeah, he has eligibility but like he's played well enough that he's probably like. You think he could be like a second or third round type of player?

[B]

Yeah, I think he'd be. He could be a day two guy. But does he feel like he could be a day one guy if he comes back?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how much does that matter to him? Or maybe, you know, you get paid at Ohio State now too. Guys. Like being in college, the one thing like Kenyatta would probably be coming back as the only guy left from his recruiting class. Like that's kind of a weird spot to be in. Like we can, like. Yeah, like I know, like you can whatever you can get a feel for whatever this guy's doing. It's like they don't know. Like, and like they could play out of their minds in the playoff. Like, well, it's time to go. So like, I would, I would hesitate to say, like, this guy's leaning this way or this guy's leaning that way. Like, yeah. Or even guess honestly, when they're in a position like, position like this, I like for me, like trying to protect the future, it kind of just feels safest to start from the scenario of everyone who can leave will leave and then see what it looks like from there then. And then leave yourself open to being surprised if guys decide to come back. So, I mean, with that in mind, like, yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna have to probably remake the edge position entirely and, and lose their best defensive tackle. And Tywo Malone's also out of eligibility after this year, so this could turn over quite a bit.

[A]

The College Football Playoff is everything. Toughness, roles, sacrifices.

[B]

This is where I think everything you.

[A]

Got all damn day.

[B]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[A]

Keep physical, keep playing. We are the winners. Tulane takes on Ole Miss, followed by James Madison in Oregon. It's time to bring it first round.

[B]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented.

[A]

By allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO.

[B]

Max, are you ready?

[A]

Let's get em.

[B]

The who's down and.

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Who Newville were making their list, but.

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[A]

Following your advice and listen like, everybody's staying. Basically Everybody's staying for 2024. Other than what Marvin Harrison Jr. And Mike Hall Jr. Everybody else stayed like that. That was kind of a snapshot, a little bit of a moment in time, I think. I don't know. I think it was instructive and I think it matters. I don't think it means that Ohio State fans should just automatically think everyone's gonna stay. So I still think your advice is the best. Following your advice, who's the starting defensive line next year?

[B]

Edric Houston, Will Smith, Zion Grady and maybe a transfer edge. Okay, if Jackson leaves.

[A]

So we did the offensive line show a couple shows ago. We kind of said we don't. You know, they were. They went and got three guys in the portal this past year. We don't think they need to do anything on the offensive line in the portal. They need to. They need to do a little work on the defensive line of the portal. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, I think, you know, I, I have no idea what they, what they think of Logan George. Right. He just, he just hasn't played. I'm actually like, we have a. We have a media day in Dallas before the Cotton bowl, and I'm like, pretty eager to talk to Larry Johnson just to kind of like get. Get his feel for where, where guys in the room are. Because, like, in my mind, it's like, well, you can't. You can't count on Bo Atkinson and Logan George, like, producing a starting caliber defensive end for you. And I think Zion Grady will be ready in year two. But then, like, the rest of that room is just like a bunch of guys who haven't played. And I think Kyrie. Kyrie Wilder will play, like, probably a decent amount as a true freshman, but I don't think you can bank on him to be a starter either. I think, like, you want. You want him to be like a rotational guy who gives you a little juice, maybe. So I think they'll probably need to add another edge and probably another defensive tackle if, if, if, if McDonald leaves. Defensive tackles are Houston, who I think, like, obviously can be good, and Smith, who I think can be good. Jason Moore, who's not really done a whole lot and is in his third year, and then again a bunch of like, it's like Eric Men said, Trajan Odom, Jarquist, Carter, who I think will be good, and Maxwell Roy. Like, Carter's the only one of that group has played even a little bit. And I think he's played like 70 snaps this year. And I don't know. I don't know that they signed a freshman who can play early. Maybe I'm wrong. So I, I think they'll probably, and, and maybe not even add a tackle, but like, add, like, add some difference makers on the defensive line perhaps.

[A]

Yeah. And there was a time, I think, when Ohio State talked about wanting six defensive tackles that basically three and a half for this season. Do you think that's a change in strategy or a change of necessity?

[B]

And that's the moment. I think it's just. Yeah, it's just a change in necessity because, okay, everyone's expensive.

[A]

Okay, okay. All right, what's your grade? 1 to 100. We do it for every position group. Bill does it, I do it. Our substack subscribers do it. They all vote, and then I add it up, the robot averages it, and we get a 1 to 100 rating for each group. What's yours?

[B]

91.

[A]

Ooh. And I feel bad. I shouldn't let you go first. Now I have to Change my vote. 91.

[B]

They have two all Americans.

[A]

I know. Doug. 88 for the subscribers. Okay. You think? I'm just. We just did our quarterback show a bit ago. You gave a higher grade to the defensive line than the quarterbacks.

[B]

Yeah, they have the best quarterbacks in the country.

[A]

Defensive line, linebacker, safeties, corners. What do you think would be the lowest defensive position group off the top of your head at the moment? I'm not holding it. You to it for your. I'm not going to come back. And corner would be lower. Okay. Okay. All right, I'll move mine up. Why don't I have. I should have more of a backbone.

[B]

Are you like a 70?

[A]

No, I was at 84, but now 84 feels low.

[B]

Oh, I think that's fine.

[A]

86. I'll say 86. Okay. Okay. All right. I mean, it's. Again, it's. It's. I'm. I'm both simultaneously comparing Ohio State, like, to its other position groups, and I'm just like, well, where's the Caleb Downs on the defensive line? It's like, Caleb Downs is the best player in the history of college football. What are you doing? Why is that your comparison? I mean, I don't. But it's like, oh, how come? Well, Caleb Downs is the seventh best Ohio State football player of all time. Where's that defensive line? And. And then I'm also going like, where's Chase Young? And that is just not a way to go through life like a lunatic asking a group of players, where's your Chase Young? And where's your Caleb Downs? 73. That's not a way to do it. So our average is 88.

[B]

I think you could do it, like, not this dissimilarly from how we did it with the offensive line. If you go, there's four starters and then kind of like assess the depth. There's five spots there to ascribe 20 points each. Yeah, I like Curry McDonald are 20s.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Well, but are they. I mean, because if Chase Young's a 20, is Kaden Curry at 20?

[B]

Chase Young is a 50.

[A]

Okay, 50 out of 20. No, I get it. Okay. All right, so now you're doing it. So do it. Just do it out loud. Do it that way, out loud real quick and see what the number is.

[B]

I would say the other defensive tackle spot, maybe I'm gonna end up lower. The other defensive tackle spot was like 15.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think Kenyatta Jackson is like 18.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then the depth is probably like 12, so that's okay. 30. 85. 85. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. All right. Now I feel better. That's excellent. Congratulations to everybody involved. But, yeah, I mean, I think it's fair. It's not super deep, but also sometimes when it's like, all right, it's not super deep, so then the starters just play more and they're still great. Who cares?

[B]

They're really good. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, it's not like that. It's not. When Kaden McDonald gets to like his 43rd snap of the game, I'm not like, oh, God, he's gonna start to suck now. It's not so great. He's still like, I think I would take him first among for having a defensive tackle draft in America. I'm probably taking Kate McDonald first. So. Yeah, yeah, it's okay with me if he pays. If he play 54 snaps in the quarterfinal, I'll allow it.

[B]

Oh, I think you will play that many snaps, so.

[A]

So it's okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

That's our defensive line rating. More of these coming. Thanks to you guys for being here, as always. He's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice and that was the Bill and Doug Show. The College Football Playoff is everything. Toughness, roles, sacrifices. Life's your focus.

[B]

This is where I think everything you.

[A]

Got all damn day.

[B]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[A]

Chilean takes on Ole Miss followed by James Madison in Oregon. It's time to bring it first round.

[B]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented.

[A]

By allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and Hill HBO.

[B]

Max, are you ready?

[A]

Let's get em. Tis the season of gifting and hauls.

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