Ohio State drops Big Ten title game to Indiana: Live postgame reaction

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ohio State Drops Big Ten Title Game to Indiana – Live Postgame Reaction

Podcast: The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis
Episode Date: December 7, 2025
Episode Context: Live postgame reaction from Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, following Ohio State’s narrow 13-10 loss to Indiana in the Big Ten Championship Game.

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers real-time, in-depth analysis and emotional reaction from seasoned Ohio State reporters Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis in the aftermath of the Buckeyes’ 13-10 loss to Indiana for the Big Ten Championship. The hosts break down what went wrong, implications for the College Football Playoff, key moments, and frustrations in execution and coaching, all while recognizing that Ohio State's season isn’t over and they remain a top national contender.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immediate Reaction: Two Years, Same Score (01:36)

• For the second year in a row, Ohio State loses the Big Ten title game by the same score (13-10), once again heading into the College Football Playoff on a disappointing note.
• Doug calls it “remarkable” how history repeated itself, while Bill notes the game featured familiar failings, especially in the red zone and short-yardage situations.

Doug (01:35): “Two years in a row, Ohio State goes into the College football playoff a 13 to 10 loser. Remarkable, Bill, that it shook down this way.”

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2. Playoff Seeding Scenarios (02:20 – 04:30)

• Ohio State is likely to be seeded #3 (possibly #2) in the playoff but almost certainly won’t fall to #4.
• Their likely semifinal path: Orange Bowl or Cotton Bowl, depending on the committee’s seeding choices.
• The majority expectation is that Indiana goes to the Rose Bowl, Georgia to the Sugar Bowl.

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3. National Championship Outlook (04:46 – 06:16)

• Both hosts believe Ohio State and Indiana are the two best teams in the country, despite the low score.
• Betting odds still favor Ohio State as national title favorites.
• A rematch between Ohio State and Indiana in the national title game is seen as plausible.

Doug (05:34): “Ohio State remains the favorite to win the national championship at +240. Indiana +280. Georgia +750. So these are the two teams that we just watched here...that are the odds on favorites.”

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4. Persistent Red Zone and Short Yardage Troubles (06:33 – 16:58)

• The biggest frustration: repeated red zone execution failures and a missed short field goal (“These are things we’ve talked about all year that are kind of lingering and...it did,”—Doug, 07:13).
• Specific complaints about:
  • Play-calling, especially one-dimensional rollout plays in key moments
  • Overreliance on sneak plays in high-leverage situations
  • Not fully utilizing top weapons (Jeremiah Smith, Carnell Tate) in creative ways
  • Offensive line regression from a strong showing vs. Michigan
  • Pass protection allowing five sacks after allowing only six all season up until this game

Bill (16:11): “They got into the red zone plenty enough to win the game and had like no good ideas when they got down there. There was nothing new, there was nothing creative.”

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5. Play Calling and Staff Dynamics (08:10 – 11:39)

• The coaching staff’s play-calling process was impacted by OC Brian Hartline’s new job at South Florida; Ryan Day did not confirm everything was as usual.
• There is confusion and concern about the lack of flow and creativity in the play selections.
• Debate if Ryan Day should take back more control of the offense for the playoff.
• Doug highlights precedent for mid-playoff staff turnover affecting play-calling (Lane Kiffin/Alabama).

Bill (09:58): “It felt like Ohio State was in that a little bit...especially at the start of the second half...weren’t calling within a flow.”

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6. Special Teams & Short-Range Field Goals: A Recurring Nightmare (21:11 – 24:32)

• Another short field goal missed by Jaden Fielding in a high-stakes, low-scoring game (missed three total in two key 13-10 losses).
• Hosts agree: in future playoff contests, they cannot trust Fielding for game-deciding kicks.
• Possible consideration for a kicking change, but backup lacks experience.

Doug (23:11): “You cannot put Jaden Fielding on the field with the game on the line. I’m sorry, you cannot do it.”

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7. Aggressiveness, Pace, and Late-Half Game Management (30:44 – 38:58)

• Ohio State played a low-possession, slow-paced game and showed a lack of urgency near the end of the first half despite having timeouts and the ball.
• Both hosts debate whether conservative game management was warranted or a tactical misstep.
• Arguments that Ryan Day’s mindset was shaped by struggles on third down and respect for Indiana’s defense.

Bill (34:34): “There are opportunities that present themselves to seize momentum...I think they turned one down there.”

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8. Julian Sayin’s Performance: Late Resilience, Early Struggles (39:00 – 46:23)

• QB Julian Sayin started shaky (early pick, sped up by pressure), but engineered two long, potential game-winning drives in the fourth quarter.
• Drives were ultimately wasted by failed execution in the red zone.
• Hosts agree he played better late; doesn’t "shrink from the moment," but also didn’t capitalize on opportunities.

Bill (45:45): “For as overwhelmed as I thought he looked...I didn’t think he looked overwhelmed at all in the fourth quarter...he didn’t quite get it done in the end.”

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9. Offensive Line Questions: Time for a Change at Right Guard? (26:46 – 30:35)

• Right guard Tegra Tshabola played inconsistently; replaced late in the game by Gabe VanSickle, who performed well.
• Likelihood that VanSickle starts in the playoffs if he continues to progress in practice.

Doug (28:19): “That’s not rotation. And Ryan Day said that’s what was needed tonight to put Gabe Van Sickle in the game...My guess, three and a half weeks from now, is that Gabe Van Sickles, the starting right guard.”

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10. Defensive Reflections: Good but Not Perfect (53:37 – 60:31)

• Defense allowed only 13 points, stood strong on short fields, but Indiana’s key weapons made timely, big throws and catches.
• Defensive play-calling second-guessed in tight moments; rare to see the defense exposed or out-schemed this season.
• Use of Arvell Reese as a hybrid defender discussed—should he be unleashed more as a pass rusher?

Bill (55:17): “They kind of made three monster throws and I don’t know that he [Indiana QB] did a whole lot else but when he had to make the monster throws, he made three of them.”

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11. Is This the Buckeye’s Fatal Flaw or Just a Setback? (48:15 – 53:37)

• Compared to last year’s 13-10 loss (which led to internal questioning and a players’ meeting), the hosts agree this isn’t a "fundamental breakdown" but more issues of execution and adapting after OC staff transition.
• Emphasis on using this loss as a possible galvanizing force for the playoff run.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On red zone malaise:

  “I think they need to...reevaluate their red zone philosophy and like the grouping of plays that they have in their red zone package right now. Not a tear down but a fresh look.” —Doug (68:43)

• On kicker trust:

  “I think he should think of it like his kicker is hurt. Not hurt that he can't play, but...he isn't full health. Normally if the kicker is full go, we would kick a 37 yard field goal...but he's not, he's hurt. So we're going to go for it on 4th and 4 instead...” —Doug (70:46)

• On Indiana’s defense:

  “Yeah. With that defense? Absolutely [they can win a national title].” —Bill (64:44)

• On the quality of play compared to SEC:

  “It wasn’t perfect football, but I thought it was a pretty high level game. I thought it was a higher level game than what the SEC put out there.” —Doug (74:44)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Game Recap & Initial Reaction: 01:35–04:46
• Playoff Seeding Scenarios: 02:20–04:30
• National Championship Odds/Rematch Discussion: 04:46–06:16
• Red Zone Problems & Play Calling: 06:33–16:58
• Offensive Line & Personnel Decisions: 26:46–30:35
• Game Management Debate (End 1st Half): 30:44–38:58
• QB Julian Sayin Analysis: 39:00–46:23
• Special Teams Concerns: 21:11–24:32
• Defensive Review: 53:37–60:31
• What Ohio State Must Fix: 67:40–70:46

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What Ohio State Must Fix Pre-Playoff

1. Resolve the right guard situation, likely committing to either VanSickle or Tshabola and building chemistry over the next month.
2. Red zone and short-yardage planning — overhaul situational packages inside the 10-yard line.
3. Clarify offensive staff hierarchy and responsibilities in light of Brian Hartline’s departure.
4. Get receivers (Jeremiah Smith, Carnell Tate) healthy.
5. Evaluate and adapt their kicking strategy—avoid putting games on Fielding’s foot in high-leverage situations.
6. Consider more pace/urgency, especially at end-of-half or when trailing.
7. Self-scout for tendency breakers and more creativity in play sequencing, especially against top defenses.

Bill (68:43): “Probably the more obvious one is...what's the hierarchy for the offensive staff? It's probably the most important thing.”

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Final Thoughts

Doug and Bill paint a nuanced, fan-centered yet critical portrait of a wounded but dangerous Buckeyes team. The loss exposed lingering flaws—above all, red zone play, offensive identity under pressure, and personnel decisions—but didn't diminish the hosts' (and Vegas’s) faith that Ohio State can regroup and contend. They urge a balance between acknowledging frustration and appreciating that the team’s path to a national title remains open—provided they make the right fixes.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

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Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lamres and Bill Landis in the Lucas Oil Stadium press box here in Indianapolis after Indiana beats Ohio State 13 to 10 in the Big Ten championship two years in a row, Ohio State goes into the College football playoff a 13 to 10 loser. Remarkable bill, that it shook down this way.

[B]

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean not, not. I don't want to say the game was played in similar fashion.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There were some things Ohio State was able to do offensively and just couldn't finish drives. But I don't know, is it, is it poetic Ohio State players and did not really seem to want to embrace that particular idea.

[A]

No.

[B]

That they were coming off of 1310 losses that heading into the postseason. But that's what it is. And then we'll get to see how Ohio State rebounds from that.

[A]

Ryan Day did not shy away I think from comparisons to last year. Said hard conversations are ahead if you guys are in the live YouTube chat. First of all, thank you for being here. Second of all, just give us a note in there if we sound okay, if everything sounds okay. You guys are our producers here. So Ohio State. Now we will be back live tomorrow as soon as the playoff bracket is out. It gets a little more complicated than what would have been obvious, which is the winner of this game is the number one seed and is going to play in the Rose Bowl.

Sounds good. Thank you, guys. Ohio State will now be the two or three seed and then that means that they will be opposite. If they are the two, they will be opposite the 7 10, which looks.

[B]

Like Texas A and M hosting. We don't know, Alabama, Miami, Notre Dame is kind of a little bit of a mess that we probably don't need to sort through right now. But that, that's one potential kind of pair. And then the other, if they were to be the three, they'd be almost at the 611, which would almost definitely be Ole Miss hosting a group of 16.

[A]

Right. So they're not going to be, they're not going to be the four. I, I really do not think.

[B]

I don't think they're the four. No shot.

[A]

I really, I really do not think that they would fall behind Texas Tech given that they were the number one team in the country all year.

[B]

So unless they really, really, really want to reward or conference championships, I, I guess I can see them saying that, but I would be pretty surprised if they were.

[A]

It is not what we are expecting at this point. We're not going to pretend to know for sure what's going to happen. You guys will know soon enough. It's tough to try to make travel plans right now. We anticipate as the two or the three, they would be in either the Orange bowl or the Cotton Bowl. Is that correct?

[B]

Yeah. So the way it was explained to me was basically like if they're above Texas Tech, they'll go to the Cotton and if not, obviously they go to the Orange. That's not set in stone. We're not telling you to book flights or anything like that. We'll see what happens tomorrow. But those are the two options. Certainly Indiana's going to the Rose bowl and Georgia is go. Or yeah, Georgia's going to the Sugar Bowl. We know that. And then it's figuring out where Texas Tech and Ohio State go.

[A]

So we not certainly not disagreeing with anybody in here who is saying they're going to be the three. So that I think is what we, you and I are anticipating.

[B]

I think they'll be the three, but.

[A]

You know, we're not on the committee, so there that matters. This loss does not end Ohio State season. But then what also matters is what does tonight tell us about Ohio State's chances to win the national championship? Bill, I think these are the two best teams in the country.

[B]

I think these are also the two best teams in the country. And like, it's a low scoring game and Indiana made a couple more plays. I think both offenses are probably kicking themselves for not finishing drives a little better. Indiana got put on three short fields and settled for field goals three times. Ohio State obviously got stopped on fourth and one, one on the sneak and then kick the field going fourth and one. That missed both of those from inside to 10. So I, you know, if you look at the total yardage, you maybe convince yourself that the offense has had a good day. I thought both defenses kind of controlled the game, but when the plays had to be made, Indiana made more. And I think these are.

Sort of like unequivocally the best two teams in the country. Right? Like, like what we learned is like, Ohio State is not without its flaws and neither is Indiana. But I would put these two teams up against anybody else we've seen so far this year.

[A]

Fisherman says Ole Miss beats this team. I don't think that's gonna happen.

[B]

A little depressed. It's okay.

[A]

The. So here we're not here to kiss your butt and say that like, hey, it doesn't matter. Ohio State lost. It's all okay. We'll tell you the fan dual betting odds right now for the national championship. Ohio State remains the favorite to win the national championship at plus 240. Indiana plus 280. Georgia plus 750. So these are the two teams that we just watched here in this stadium tonight that are the odds on favorites to be the college football national champions. Champions. I certainly think a rematch is possible than that.

[B]

Yeah, I think it is too. I, I was less.

[A]

Not.

[B]

I don't know, I was pretty. Feeling pretty good about that in terms of Indiana coming into this game. And then their defensive line just kind of showed me that they're kind of ready for anybody if they're ready for Ohio State. So, you know, we don't have to make picks right now, but I could see it.

[A]

Nobody cares from an Ohio State standpoint about the Heisman at this point after Ohio State loses a game like this. But obviously Fernando Mendoza, the odds on favorite, certainly I think we'll get my Heisman vote, even though I'm not supposed to say that. Let's Talk about what happened to Ohio State. I think the most, most frustrating thing, Bill, for Ohio State fans is.

That the things that tripped up Ohio State are things that were familiar and it was red zone and it was short yardage with a sneak that didn't make it. It was a field goal situation. Missing a 26 yard field goal, which is, I don't know how many 26 yard field goals are missed in a college football season across FBS.

And, and some of the play calling. We got a lot of questions about play calling.

But that idea, Bill, that there are things that we have talked about all year that are kind of lingering and that there has been when they are a throw team the way they've been, sometimes that manifests itself with red zone issues. I think that's where Ohio State fans are right now in terms of. I wondered if this might bite this team and it did, it did.

[B]

And I think what's, you know, just adds to the frustration and we'll, I think we'll, we'll, we'll have time. We got 20 something days. We'll dig in on the play calling thing. I think a little bit more to like what was up here, what's up moving forward. I think Ryan Day has sort of like left the door open to like things might change a little bit with what Brian Hartline has going on in the South Florida job. But what made today sort of more frustrating on top of that is that the offensive line was coming off of its best game of the year against Michigan and then probably played its worst game of the year today, at least from a pass protection standpoint. It definitely, definitely played a smart game. I actually thought the run blocking was okay outside of some of the short yardage stuff, but the pass protection was bad. And we talked about coming into the game how Indiana could get pretty exotic with its fronts and puts a lot of pressure on teams and puts a lot of pressure on offensive lines to be really dialed in. And Ohio State's offensive line for too many, too long of a stretch in this game was not. And a team that had allowed six sacks all year coming into the game allowed five in this game plus nine tackles for loss.

[A]

So, you know, we're not going to pretend to know for sure what's happening with the play calling. There's people who think that they know who is calling the plays tonight. I mean, just because Ryan Day has a play sheet in his hand, is looking at a play sheet does not mean he's calling every play. There is a play calling conversation to be had definitely no doubt about it. Lane Kiffin, when he took the Florida Atlantic job and was the offensive coordinator for Alabama, Nick Saban basically told him to get lost in the playoff, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I am not suggesting that that is what should happen or is going to happen, but, but it is, there is some precedent for that. Ryan Day we were gonna, it needed to be asked, Austin Ward asked it what was the play calling and the game planning situation this week with Brian Hartline getting the South Florida job. And Ryan Day did not say everything was normal. Ryan Day did not say everything today was the same as it has been all year. So he said, Brian is doing the best that he can, but I think anything is on the table for three and a half weeks from now for when Ohio State takes the field. You have often said, I think we people have said, but you're on it, that in the postseason, when there's more time to plan, when it's a big game, Ryan Day gets more involved. Anyway, I am, I don't think we need to start a conversation tonight about will Brian Hartline still be the offensive coordinator when Ohio State gets to this game three and a half weeks from now. But something was different this week and even Ryan Day acknowledging that reality, I think was something I, I don't know how much it affected them because there are times when people are frustrated with the play calling anyway. Did you think it felt like a very different offensive game plan or play calling structure the way this game unfolded?

[B]

Yeah, I think so. And I get like, you know, I was trying to watch Ryan Day a little bit from my binoculars up in the press box to see like, you know, know when he had the sheet out, did it look like he was actually calling plays? It looked like he was maybe just confirming things. We can't tell. Like all we can do is ask more about it. We can come up with, come up with the theories. And I'm not saying anything's off base, but like we don't know. But yeah, I did, I did feel like it was a little off kilter today. It was actually funny. I was watching a thing earlier this week. Mike McDonald, the former Michigan defensive coordinator is now the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks. Was doing an interview with somebody and he was talking about he doesn't like, like when offensive play callers sort of don't, don't like call a game, they just call plays. Like if that makes sense. Like they're not, they're not building on top of ideas. They're not, they're not operating within a Flow of the game. Just like, okay, we have these six cool plays I drew up. We're gonna call them at some point. And it felt like Ohio State was in that a little bit maybe like especially at the start of the second half, like they got the midfield, they, they tried to call what looked to be very similar play to what they scored on against Michigan with Carnell Tate last week and got sacked for a loss of 14 yards on or 9 yards on that play, 14 yards on the next play. And I, I think they got a little like shot happy, sort of like designer play shot happy. And weren't, weren't calling within a flow. And that's not the first time I felt that this year, but I hadn't.

[A]

Felt it in a while.

[B]

Certainly didn't feel it last week when they were playing against Michigan. So I don't. This was not their, their best foot forward as a, as an offensive game planning staff, as a game day managing staff and as a play calling staff which, however the operations and duties were delineated, this was probably they're honestly their worst day of the year trying to do that stuff.

[A]

Yeah, I will say we're not here to tell you how to feel understand a complete, understandable frustration tonight. Yeah, I think like there's been three things I think happening during the, maybe the last month of the season here and maybe it's just me, but I think a lot of people have sort of been agreeing with this. One is that people were frustrated when Ohio State is playing scrimmages, right. And so like that they weren't challenged and, and November wasn't fun and it was too easy. And so then tonight they played what we think is one of the two best teams in the country. And sometimes this kind of thing happens. I'm not saying I don't think playing three scrimmages before the Michigan game led to this tonight. But sometimes it's a hard choice between do you want an easy win for Ohio State that's kind of boring or do you want them to be challenged and then you see what happens. Second thing is I think the SEC is mid. I think the SEC championship game showed us that today. So I don't think anybody should taking, be taking a leap from Ohio State losing to Indiana tonight and thinking that the playoff is dead, that the season is over, because I think that's the toughest challenge they're going to face. And I'm not saying that Georgia can't give them something. I'm not saying that Texas Tech can't give Them something. I'm not saying Oregon can't give them something, that Notre Dame, if Notre Dame gets in, can't give them something. But I'm just saying I don't think you're going to see a team better than that. I don't think you're going to see a team more physical than that, with a quarterback and receiver core that makes timely plays, didn't march up and down the field, but nobody does that against Ohio State. And then the other thing is, like, they're still pretty good. So.

I think, like, we have to acknowledge, I think a bunch of those realities, which are just true. But yet what is the most frustrating thing, Bill, is when it's not. Indiana did some of this to Ohio State, and there were a lot of people in our chat saying they don't want us to come on tonight, talk about how good Indiana is, where it's not an Indiana show, it's an Ohio State show. Indiana's good. But Ohio State did a lot of this stuff tonight to itself, which is why fans, I think, are rightly frustrated.

[B]

They just like you, you just wanted them. They played such a good game last week, and you just wanted to see that build, right, and generate some momentum going into the postseason. And they just. They just took, like, a few too many steps back. And. And this was the type of team that was finally going to make them pay for that. Like, it was. It was. They get down, right? They get down for the first time in the second half all year, and then the offense, like, moves the ball, they get down inside the 10 and it's like, okay, this is a nice response. And then they just don't finish the drive, get the ball back, move it again, get a little help from a penalty, but move it again and get in a position to score. And they, like, they just don't finish the drive. So it's not like they were totally out of sorts. That's like the. You want to compare, like, 1310 last year to 1310 this year. Like, they moved the ball this year, but it's just. They're just going to get it, get it in the end zone or make a kick, but it just wasn't the team you. You were accustomed to seeing over over.

[A]

The last 12 games.

[B]

And it's a bummer. Like, I get it. I don't. I don't think it's like in game 13, we figured out who Ohio State really is, but I do think, like, there are. Every team has problems and every team has weak spots. And I think Ohio State played a schedule that for the most part allowed it to like mask those or overcome them. And then tonight they played a team that was going to expose them and if Ohio State didn't get it figured out, they were going to beat them. And that's sort of what happened.

[A]

Let's talk about the two short yardage situations that lead to the idea that they wind up in two fourth and one situations. One from the five yard line where the sneak doesn't make it, one from the nine yard line where they miss a field goal. And to get into two fourth and one situations inside the 10 and get zero points is the thing that, the, that loses games for you.

Fourth and one from the five. The third down play before that on third and one is a roll out to the left. Everybody is blocking. Jeremiah Smith is the only person in the route. Bo Jackson, I thought initially is like, is he a second option there? But he has his back to Julian saying he's blocking, the tight ends on that side are blocking. And it, it is a one man route. It's a do or die situation. And, and Indiana double covers Jeremiah Smith and there's just nothing there. And then there's not a second option. What, what do you think? Now the hard thing here is that there's a lot of frustration. Again, rightly so. We are, we are, we hear you, we see you, we are with you on your frustrations. But some of the times in short yardage, Bill, some of the Ohio State fan frustrations is why don't they put their best players on the field and go to their best players, I. E. Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate in those situations. They did that, but it didn't seem like a good call.

[B]

I hate those calls. I've never liked those calls. I hated them when they ran them with J.T. barrett 10 years ago. I hate them now. Cutting the field in half doesn't really make much sense to me especially we only have one route over there.

That, I mean that, that is to me where it felt like Ohio State. Maybe you could feel Ohio State's game planning coming up short the most. Right. They were coming into a game, we told you, playing against the country's number one race, red zone, touchdown defense. And they got into the red zone plenty enough to win the game and had like no good ideas when they got down there. There was nothing new, there was nothing creative. They looked a little like they were searching at times. But yeah, that, I mean, and that, that play call maybe is sort of, maybe as emblematic of that as anything else that happened in this game but that that's clearly enough to stop people. They know that that's where the offensive sort of mechanism got got most out of sync is when they got inside the tent.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

And then they sneak it Ryan Day asked about the sneak at the podium the way they did postgame. Ryan Day and Julian Sane went to a podium and then several other players came into a side room. We were mostly at Ryan Day and Julian saying at the podium. Asked about the sneak. Ryan Day said our sneaks have been pretty good this year. He turned to Julian say and said how many sneaks this year haven't worked? And Julian sand said 2.

[B]

Yeah last week against Michigan and today so.

[A]

And both of those times it felt like he lost his feet maybe a little bit.

I don't think of a fourth and one that is that a sneak is a bad call there. I don't know why they don't push him a little bit or I don't know why Lincoln Keenholtz is in the game. But if the point is well it's worked for most of the year I guess I understand that. But going forward should that be the fourth and one call of Julian saying sneak?

[B]

I don't think you shelvig entirely. No. The thing with the sneak is like it's hard to work on right? Like you can't, you can't really practice it. But I think Julian saying prior to last week had been really Good about feeling that out. Like, all you're doing is you're getting under the center and you're trying to, like, find the bubble.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, which size it makes sense to go to. What side does it make sense to go to? And he had been really good about that. And I don't think made any bad decision in this to sneak against Indiana. It looked to me like maybe as he was driving, his legs. Like his knee grazed the ground. I didn't get a good look at a replay, but I. I don't.

I'm trying to pull up what. How. Exactly. How. Exactly how successful they've been. But I don't. I don't know that you just go away from it entirely because it didn't work in the last two games. If you want to bring in Lincoln and do it and push them, I guess that's fine. My. My bigger issue was, like, maybe do it on third and one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And not fourth and one when your margin for error is zero.

[A]

Yeah. So I think we can have a lot of discussions about that over the next three and a half weeks. I don't know what the strategy is. If you're gonna sneak. If you're gonna do a sneak. Yeah. Third and one and fourth one. Should you sneak it on third and one and then if it doesn't work, then try some kind of rollout path on 4th, or are you better to throw it on 3rd and then if it doesn't work, let's go back to the sneak on fourth? I don't know. I think maybe I'd rather sneak it on third and then try. Like when Michigan, when they were failing at the goal line against Michigan, they were going to roll out and throw the Jelani Thurman on fourth down. Except they had the false start. Right. I think maybe I like that better. Let's try to pound it. Pound it. If it doesn't work. Okay. The pounding hasn't worked. Now we're going to do something else.

[B]

They didn't. The one thing that was interesting is, like, they got down there. We didn't.

[A]

C.J.

[B]

Donaldson didn't have a carry, right?

[A]

Didn't have a carry.

[B]

Yeah. Like, they just. They. That's what they abandoned.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't blame them because it hasn't been good. And it was awful against Michigan when they couldn't score on sixth place from inside the two or whatever it was.

I don't know. Like, it's easy to second guess because it didn't work. I don't think there's something inherently Flawed in quarterback sneaking with this quarterback or this offense.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The timing I think matters. Do it all. Third or one, maybe not fourth and one and maybe get your running backs involved a little more in short yardage if you want to be more certain about it.

[A]

Okay, so listen, it's a college kicker. It's a human being. We understand all of that. Nobody go out and do anything.

He's trying his best. Yeah, they lost two, 13, 10 games the last two years and he's missed three field goals total in those two games.

[B]

Short ones.

[A]

Short ones. I guess it goes officially in the book as a 27 yard field goal. I asked Ryan Day how much he thought about going forward on 4th and 1 before the field goal. He said his thought process was we've struggled in the red zone, it's a chip shot, let's make this field goal, get a stop and then have time to drive and try to kick a game winning field goal. I said how would this affect your decision making about that going forward? And he basically admitted it will his, it will affect his decision making. You and I were discussing as we got in the elevator, if this game was the Natty, would he have kicked the field goal on fourth and one from the nine yard line or would he have gone for it if it was for all the marbles instead of in a game that you actually can lose and it doesn't kill you? What do you say to that?

[B]

I don't think you would have kicked it if it was for all the, all the marbles. I do not think he would have kicked it.

I think he would have tried to do something that put the game in the hands of Julian saying and the two receivers.

[A]

So I said, I'm not sure about that. But then the answer I think is it's either one of two things. One is he thought differently in this game than he would in the Natty because it wasn't the Natty. So then that's good. In that situation, the Natty, he'll think differently or he thought tonight the exact same way he would have thought if this was the Natty tonight. But now that the field goal has been missed in the Natty, he won't kick it. So either way, fourth and one from the nine in the national championship game, he's not kicking it. You cannot put Jaden Fielding on the field with the game on the line. I'm sorry, you cannot do it.

He is not, does not handle the pressure with the season on the line and you can't do it. And that is not Only about him. That is about special teams, coaches, that is about decisions about who is going to be put into that position. Position where they had a person who missed two short field goals in a 13:10 loss in the rivalry game last year and they came back and ran it back with the same guy. So it's not only about the player, but the situation as it stands is you can't do it. So I, I don't know. I'm not going to pretend I have a solution, but you cannot do what they did tonight. And I don't. We don't think they will.

[B]

I do not think they will. They have. I, I wonder if it's to the point where they might consider a kicking change. They do have another kicker on the roster that they brought in from Ball State. I think it was in the off season. He's just never made a kick, a kick of consequence. I wouldn't trust him to. And I don't think Ohio State, well, it's not even national championship. It's like Cotton Bowl, Orange bowl. Four for one from the nine season on the line. Yeah. And that's what everything.

[A]

You miss it, you miss it. Your season's over. He missed it. Their season's not over.

[B]

They're not gonna, they're not gonna do it.

I, I thought that coming in because we had this conversation mid year, right. When they tried the 50 yarder against Minnesota, I think it was and missed and we just had like conversations about how much confidence is Ryan to have in this game. My answer was none. And I still think the answer is definitively none. Now after this.

[A]

Okay, so what, why does this keep happening? Why is this? I mean we can go back to, you know, I don't necessarily agree with it all the way, but certainly was a conversation point when they lost to Clemson in 2019. Their red zone issues in the first half of that game, they should have been up more than they were. Of all the things that Ohio State has done well and Ryan Day has the best record in college football since he took over as the head coach. Like what, what, why does this keep happening? Is it because no team's perfect? Is it because they are a quarterback receiver driven offense and when the field gets short, you can't do what you do best? Like why, why is this still happening here?

[B]

I think you touched on it. I don't think they're all created equal.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like if you think about the Clemson game in 2019.

Like J.K. dobbins, like Fell. I think there's a ball off a guy's hands in the end zone, right. Like this was like they didn't even have chances really to score. The ball went into the end zone to Bennett Christian on that last drive and the ball got knocked away on a really good play by version already.

So it's not exactly the same, but I think, I think there's probably something to. We're a throw first team. It's hard to throw in the low red zone. Do we really trust our run game to get us there? And then once you're to that point and the answer is like, I don't know, if we trust our wrong game, then I start, I think you can begin to overthink things in a way that's just not helpful. So they just got to have a better plan when they're down there. And like I said, like, I just, I didn't think they had any plan when they got down there today. And I think like, if I had to point to something as a reflection of them being off their game planning routine even the slightest bit, I would point to that first.

[A]

As pointed out in the YouTube chat, the Indiana kicker who was the first team all Big Ten kicker this year also missed one tonight. He missed a 39 yarder. So he made a 29 yarder, missed a 39 yarder and made a 32 yarder. Jaden Fielding made a 30 yarder and missed a 27 yarder with 248 left. That would have tied the game. So it's just different circumstances of. Right. This is, it's a high pressure situation and it has not gone well. The offensive line, you said, played his best game against Michigan last week, played his worst game tonight was last week. Full cold?

[B]

A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's partly on us. Like we. In acknowledging how well Ohio State's offensive line played last last week, there was not enough discussion about the quality of Michigan's defense, which is not near the quality of this Indiana defense. So this was always going to be a stiffer test and one. I was, I was a little uncertain, like how well they'd handle it. And it's primarily pass protection and it's handling these twists and stunts and simulated pressures and guys dropping out and guys rushing from different spots. You're just, it just, it just puts a lot of strain on your ability to identify things quickly. And that has not been a strong point for this offensive line for most of the season. It has been better the last couple of weeks, but they were not tested the way they were going to be. Tested in this game. And then Indiana threw it at them pretty fast and furious and often. And they. And they just didn't have. We're in breakdowns all the time, but there were too many, obviously. They got sacked five times. One of the sacks was because Julian saying, should have threw the ball over Brandon and this and he didn't do it. But the other ones, I think these guys were kind of on him too fast and there was nothing that Julian could do about it. So there were a lot of breakdowns there. And also noteworthy that they took Ticker Shabola out of the game and put Gabe and Tickle in for the ended for the last two drives.

[A]

We have been talking about Tega Shabola all year. It felt like maybe he had turned a corner last week and that they did not rotate him last week. And then Ryan Day asked about it after the game, said they wanted to rotate, but they didn't rotate. They played Tegra and then Tegra until.

[B]

He gave up a. A sack and then it took him out and didn't pull him back in.

[A]

That's not rotation. And Ryan Day said that's what was needed tonight to put Gabe Van Sickle in the game. They will evaluate going forward what is needed. My guess, three and a half weeks from now is that Gabe Van Sickles, the starting right guard.

I don't know, because now you're playing good teams, so it's like, okay, you play. And as good as. We understand that Indiana has a very good defense, we've been saying all week we think the four best defenses in the country are Ohio State, Indiana, Oklahoma and Texas Tech. Well, Oklahoma and Texas Tech are both in the playoff too. And you have three and a half weeks with for Tyler Bowen to get Gabe Van Sickle ready. And I thought when he went in tonight, I know one. A millionth about offensive line play as much as you do, but I was trying to watch him. I thought he did his job.

[B]

He did. Yeah. No, and the last time we saw him, he did not play well. So that was encouraging to see him play well in this game. Yeah, you could.

[A]

Three and a half weeks.

[B]

Yeah. I. I mean, it's two questions, right? Like, do you think it'll happen?

[A]

Do you.

[B]

Do you think it should happen? I definitely think it should happen.

[A]

I think it will. I think it will.

[B]

I. I guess I would lean. I would lean your way. I could also see showing up with a more well thought out plan to actually rotate in the next game, but still start Tegra.

[A]

And it's one of those things that thing we talk about again, that they put in Luke Montgomery and Carson Hinsman late last year and they were ready to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would they have been ready at the beginning of the year? Maybe not, but they were ready at the end. Would Gabe Van Sickle have been ready at the beginning of the year to compete with Hagrid Shabola for the starting right guard? No. Can he get ready with basically a month of prep to play at a national championship level? I think he can, yeah.

[B]

It's worth a shot, I think. Yeah. It's a long time.

[A]

And frankly, if you. To get Gabe Van Sickle ready, I mean, it's one of. Tyler Bowen's gonna figure it out. I think they're gonna try it. And then, like, over the. If the course of the next three and a half weeks in practice, Tiger Chabot's better every day. It's like, what are you gonna do? All right, well, Tigers. Tiger's better every day.

[B]

What's.

[A]

What's happening here? But I think if Gabe looks good in practice, you start Gabe, and then if for some reason it's not going well, you go back to Tiger. And now Tegra's motivated. But I think, like, this. This idea, it, again, it's the number one frustration for the number one team in the country that is supremely talented. There's just a couple things that have been lingering all year, and it can be difficult to talk about because there's so many things they do well. And then it's like, are we harping on right guard? Are we harping on short yardage? Are we harping on red tone? And Jaden Fielding actually made a bunch of kicks this year, but now here we are, and we're talking about the same stuff.

[B]

This was the first time you had to make one that mattered.

[A]

A lot of people asking about the idea of playing slow, and here we are, and it's.

[B]

Was.

[A]

Would you say this was a low possession game?

[B]

Yeah. 57 plays for Indiana, 56 plays for Ohio State.

[A]

So I think this can tie.

[B]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 possessions for Ohio State.

[A]

So I do think. I think there's a dual conversation here. It is the pace of play overall and the strategy behind that. And when you have what you think is a supremely talented offense, if you shorten presented possessions, now everything matters a little bit more, right? And you just, like, you want more. When you have a good offense, you want more data points. We want more opportunity. So if something goes wrong, we think, okay, 40 more plays, it's going to go great. But then there's the idea of what happened at the end of the first half when Ohio State had the ball. And maybe you would expect them to go up tempo a little bit or try to push it right, to try to be aggressive. And instead it felt like Ohio State didn't want to get stopped on third down by a very good Indiana defense. And Ohio State was struggling on third down and Indiana didn't want to call timeouts to maybe give an Ohio State defense a chance. And so both teams were pretty happy to let the clock tick down. Mostly I saw it more in that moment as a sign of respect that Ryan Day is thinking Indiana defense, I don't want to risk getting stopped. And you get the ball back with it with 90 seconds and Indiana saying, Ohio State offense, even if we get stops on first and second down, we don't want to call them timeout before third down. And then you hit a throw and all of a sudden now you're moving. But is there something there that there is a lack of aggression that is hurting Ohio State and it's, we're talking about both with pace of play, a number of plays in a game, but in that situation specifically, yeah, the pace.

[B]

Of play thing, they were on a silent count. I don't know how much that might impact things. Indiana, I don't believe was on the silent count there. There are more Indiana fans in here than Ohio State fans.

[A]

I thought it was. I went out and stood at the 50 yard line for the introductions. I thought the sound was about 55, 45 Indiana. And then I, I went out in the stands multiple times just looking at the way it wrapped around and like, okay, there seems to be the line. It's hard because everybody's read. I, I would say the actual physical breakdown was also about 55, 45 at the end.

[B]

Okay, so. But I don't know if the silent count impacts pace of play or not. There's also the thing of, like, I, you know, I didn't think much of it in the moment, but Ryan Day earlier this week referred to this game as the end of the regular season, not the beginning of the postseason. So if there's like some thought of, well, heist going to play differently in the postseason, maybe that did not apply to this game. I would certainly disagree with that logic. But maybe that's, that's what it was. I think they probably need to play a little faster. I, I don't know that they've played great when they have played faster at times this year. And it's sort of independent of that. I, I thought the end of the half was mismanaged.

[A]

You thought they should have pushed it.

[B]

I thought they should have pushed it and tried to score.

[A]

I really think they were 4 of 12 for the game on first, on third down. But I think early they were like 1 of 7 or something like that. I was really 6.

[B]

It was 10, 6. They had the ball with 247 and three timeouts and we're getting the ball ball back to start the second half. They could have put the game away.

[A]

And I think most of the time they would do that. I think they believe the way the game was unfolding and the respect to the Indiana defense. They were worried about going three and out in 31 seconds and all of a sudden now Fran Amandoza has a two minute drill.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know that. I think you should live in fear of that when you're trying to manage. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I, I thought that was an opportunity to kind of seize control of the game that really no one had seized control of yet. It was like kind of wonky and each team had turned the ball over and Indiana settling for field goals. Ohio State's not finishing drives but to get the stop to get the ball, to have that much time, it wasn't like it was a minute, it was, it was practically three and they had three timeouts and the two minute timeout and they just let the clock drain like I thought that was wrong.

I'm not saying that's the reason they lost the game, but I do think if you score there, even if it's a 50 field goal, if you score on those two possessions, you drastically change the state of the game. And they never did in Indiana. I just think never felt, felt the pressure that Ohio State could have put on them in that moment had they scored.

[C]

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[A]

I think Spanish Trampoline just said they were over five on third downs in the first half. I mean I, I think that influenced it. That, that there, there is a level of confidence that you have generally in your offense and then there's a level of confidence that you have specifically. So they came out from the 25 yard line complete to Cardon Tate for 11 yards. First down they were over four on third down, Bo Jackson run for four yards. Second and six. Julian saying sacked.

Third and eight passing complete. So.

But they did. They did. They were, they were taking their time even before the sack. Yeah, but, but then it's almost like, well, they were proven right. So. Because here, because here's the thing that's difficult. They were not aggressive. They got one first down and then one. They wound up punting on fourth and eight with 32 seconds left. If that had unfolded the same way, they would have wound up hunting on 4th and 8 with like a minute and 30 seconds left. And now Indiana has like, they didn't, it didn't succeed.

[B]

We don't trust our execution is not as.

[A]

Not an excuse for me even against it. Even though the execution has not been good, they've not been good on third town. This is a really good defense and you have a lead. You're not trying to take a lead, you're trying to make sure you still have a lead going to the half.

[B]

I think when you're playing a team this good and it's clearly as tightly contested as this one was, there are opportunities that present themselves to seize momentum. And sure, it can backfire on you, but I think they turned one down there.

[A]

Interesting. I, I can see.

We, we will have a conversation about this. We'll do this. We'll. We'll do a Monday sound off with folks and get feedback on this. I would like to ask Ryan Day about this. The thinking, right, because this, this is like big game strategic thinking when it's like, well, this is what we do well. But also we're going up against someone who does something well as well. And so like even though we believe in ourselves, are we sure. And it hasn't worked. Like they had some proof of concept. We haven't made a third down yet the whole game.

[C]

Right.

[A]

What makes us think we're going to come out like move down the field in a two minute drill?

[B]

Well, they got 11 yards on their first play.

[A]

They did.

[B]

And then let 40 seconds run off the clock.

[A]

They did. But also if they had started going there, like if they had, if they had had a couple successful plays with three timeouts, you have time in a minute and three timeouts to do what you need to do. Like I didn't feel like if they, 25, if they had a successful drive, if they had had two more successful plays, I don't think they would have run out of time. I think they would have been able to do it. I think, I mean, clearly they were more worried about giving it to Indiana. It's, I think it's an interesting conversation. It tells us something about Ryan Day's mindset that I think does relate to the Indiana defense. Relates generally to how he perceives his team, but I think more relates to specifically how they were playing offensively. And I don't think he liked how they were playing offensively in the first half.

[B]

I don't like how they're playing offensively in the first half.

[A]

So then why would you push it if it's not going well?

[B]

Why are you letting Indiana dictate the terms?

[A]

Because their defense is outplaying your offense for the most part in the first half.

I don't know.

[B]

It felt kind of even to me.

[A]

I don't know. I, I, I, I think it's, it's a good conversation.

How do you think Julian sand played?

[B]

It's funny. He finished 21 of 29, so he had eight incomplete passes and I think three of those were throwaways. So he was super efficient and helped in the yards. By the long flight at the end of Jeremiah Smith, I thought that he was sped up in the second and third quarters.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And probably missed some stuff.

Maybe took like he's under duress and there's only so much you can do about that. But he probably exacerbated a couple of those plays by either not making a throw that was available to make, not throwing the ball away, not scrambling earlier. I don't actually think if I can levy a criticism against him. I suppose I don't know that he has the proper mindset. Sometimes when he's scrambling of like scrambling to actually get something, he's sort of just like scrambling to not get sacked. But then he'll run out of bounds for like a, still like a negative 3 yard loss. And it's like, well, why don't you try to run for three? So I don't know, maybe that's being hypercritical. So I, I clearly got outdooled by Fernando Mendoza. I don't think he played awful, but it was another game. If you go back to the, was it UCLA game, he got pressured a decent amount without his, his receivers and was clearly sped up in that game and kind of thrown off a little bit. And I, and I definitely sense something similar in this game.

[A]

The drives for Ohio State tonight, First one ends on a Julian sand interception. Second one is six plays for 25 yards in a punt. Third one is short field, three plays.

Am I looking at this right? Yeah. Three plays, 25 yard touchdown. Next one is a six place 67 yard drive. It's the, it's the Jeremiah Smith big hit. Ends in a field goal, then a punt. The drive we're talking about at the end of the first half, four place, 13 yards in a punt. First drive of the third quarter, five plays, 11 yards in a punt. Then a very long successful drive. I mean, this is, this is the very difficult thing about this.

Their first six drives, they scored on two. They punted three times and he threw a pick. Their last two drives, 12 plays, 70 yards, 15 plays, 81 yards. This was a team against a very good defense who was struggling. They got pushed to the brink. They were down. They needed to show something. They marched 70 yards and 81 yards and got no points.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if they just finish that off normally, even if they kick two field goals or even if they, if they do one of the things correctly, they're at the very least probably in overtime. Yeah. Or if they miss the field goal but they convert the sneak like that, that idea that they, this was a team. So to sit. It's very hard to sit here. Like, I don't think Julian Sam played well early. He led two drives at the end of the game that totaled 151 yards to put Ohio State in position to win. You know who I was thinking about as he took the field late in the game? Stetson Bennett. This is go time. You have to lead your team down the field in the fourth quarter to win a game. And he did. But they didn't score.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And it's not just about like perception of how much we'd be talking differently about this game if that had worked, but like they actually did it. He did his job there. The Offense did his job. And then we talked about the third down call to Jeremiah Smith, a single guy in a route. We didn't really talk about the third. Other third down call before the field goal in depth, the past event Christian, which again I think maybe if he had gone right away that one, they did have a Bo Jackson option in the flat or two routes if he had taken double than one. Double better than one. But they did it. So if we're sitting here saying your.

[B]

Two routes are Bo Jackson, been a Christian, I agree.

[A]

But also the first time your one rat was Jeremiah Smith. So it's, it's a, it was failures in completely different ways. One was you put it on the best guy and only him. The second was you put it on none of your best guys. But it's two of them. And. But, but the point is this. If we were sitting here talking about, man, I can't believe they punted seven times and Julian Sam did nothing. He led drives down the field. Yeah, and then the play calling, I think the play calling let them down.

[B]

But the play calling I think helped get them there too. Right.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Because like at that juncture of the game when they got the ball back after Indiana had taken the lead, I thought to that point they were throwing it too much because they were actually running it well. And then they came out in those drives and they ran it some more. They got good play action stuff into the flats to the tight ends and like, I don't know, the max Claire, I don't think had a catch in the first half and tight end might have had one catch in the first half and they kind of got them involved more in the second half. So the play calling up until the point where they got like to the 10 was good and then once they got there it was bad. So like it was, it doesn't. You don't give them, you don't give them credit because they didn't finish drives but put in a position trailing in the second half for the first time all season. They want, like you said, 70 yards on 12 plays and 81 yards on 15 plays. He just didn't finish the drive. So I'm not saying people should take out the negative result and only focus on the positives that happened up until that point. But they could have turtled, they could have turtle and they didn't. Also weird this game for as good as these two defenses are, not a single three and out on either side.

[A]

Interesting. They also completed.

He completed a third down throw on the first drive and Then he threw and complete to Jeremiah in the end zone. So they were one of two on that first long drive. On third down, the. The next long drive that ended in the missed field goal. 3rd and 5, 8 yard pass to C.J. donaldson. 3rd and 820 yard pass to Carnell Tate. Really nice.

[B]

That was good play. Scramble got out those right?

[A]

Yeah. Third and eight. The trick play that actually was short of the first down but there was the foul on Indiana that gave him the first down and then that led up into the third and one in completion event Christian. So again, this is an offense that had not been converting third downs at all all game and then they did convert some third downs when needed on too late drives. I'm not making excuses for Julian Sam, but if we're having this conversation, they lost the game. But if they had failed on those third downs earlier in that drive and wound up punting, I think we would have a completely different conversation because I think we'd be talking about can Julian say and lead this offense in a tough spot late in a. In a game that they're. They're going to face that in the playoff. But I actually think we have a little bit of evidence that okay, maybe they can do that. They just have to convert in the red zone.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah, I don't like the fourth and one I guess goes on him because his knee hit the ground. But like for as overwhelmed as I thought he looked at times and sort of like in the middle of the game, I didn't think he looked overwhelmed at all in the, in the fourth quarter when they were down and trying to. Trying to drive. So I guess that's good. Like that's. I don't know the right way to talk about it because I'm not trying to make people angry, but like he's a retro freshman quarterback who's never been in this position before and he was put into it and he didn't play his absolute best, but I don't think he shrunk from the moment either. He just didn't quite get it done in the end.

[A]

He played better late than he did early.

[B]

Played much better late than he did early.

[A]

Yeah, which. Which is something. And.

Again we jinxed Ohio State quarterbacks. I thought. And I really want to, I want to make some comparisons to the Michigan game last year. I thought the. But also the Michigan game this year. So the Michigan pick on the second throw this year was. They said he got fooled on the coverage. Right. I. This to me was just. Was a little Bit more about the Indiana defense. Just like maybe forcing him into a throw and pretty good coverage. And I think he saw everything and just thought, there's people coming after me and this is my best option and I'm going to try to squeeze it in that window. And the DB made a play.

[B]

That's his first read. That's where the ball's supposed to go.

[A]

But I don't think he was tricked.

[B]

No, I. I have to rewatch it, I guess. But.

That over the ball route was open. When it's open, first they tell you that that's where the ball should go on that play. Ohio State runs that play 15 times a game. And yep, the DB drove on it and knocked it in the air. So, yeah, I don't think that was a bad decision.

[A]

Spanish trampoline says cover two invert on the sand. Interception.

[B]

No, that's not what it was.

[A]

But. But I think, I think he saw.

[B]

The guy on this one.

[A]

On this one.

[B]

Oh. Oh, yeah.

[A]

I don't know because I think. I think on the Michigan last week, he was surprised that the guy was there.

On the Michigan pick because what he thought the coverage was and what.

[B]

It actually, that was. Yeah, that was. That was. Looked like cover one, pre snap post nap turn to cover two. This one. I don't.

[A]

I. I thought he knew this guy was there and he tried to squeeze it in. It didn't work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So this is the question I want to ask because we are staring at 213 to 10 losses for Ohio State as their last game before they go into the do or die playoff situation.

Last year it wasn't just a loss. It was. There's something wrong here. There's something wrong with Ryan Day's ability to rise to the challenge against Michigan. There's something wrong where in that game it felt like their playmakers were not getting the ball as much as they should. And it rose to the level of the team having a meeting with him and basically saying all the things that fans were saying, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there something in the way this game was played and called and prepared for that is at all similar in the idea of there's something wrong here with Ryan Day, with this team, with the preparation or did they. Was it a little bit more. They had red zone struggles. That's very frustrating. They lost to a good team and sometimes you lose.

[B]

I don't think it's anything close to last year.

I think maybe if you were to have that similar sort of team meeting and there was honesty and you wanted to Call the coaching staff out on something. It's probably, probably just like our OC is leaving. What's the plan here? Like, how do we. How do we navigate this to make sure we're putting ourselves in the best position offensively to make the plays we need to make? I don't think there's anything like we're fundamentally broken. You don't know how to manage a game. You don't know how to manage the emotions type of thing like that. We're pretty far away from the position they were in last year when they lost 1310.

[C]

And Doug, here we have the Limu.

[A]

Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[C]

Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[B]

Cut the camera.

[A]

They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty, Liberty. Liberty Savings Fairy underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[C]

Tis the season of gifting and holes to deck. And the who's in Whoville were in love with new tech. Where can we find Sonos and Samsung and Nintendo? They shouted. Would they find it in one place? This they questioned and asked when suddenly a who yelled, walmart's the place to start. And each who added headphones, TVs and games to their carts. With Walmart, their shopping was done in a flurry. They cried out, who knew? And ordered their gifts in a hurry. Shop the latest tech gifts in the Walmart app.

[A]

20 carries for the running backs.

27 targets because a couple throwaways in the 29 passes. Jeremiah Smith, eight catches on 10 targets for 144 yards. Carnell Tate, four catches on four targets for 45 yards.

That's. That's maybe a little something. The two tight ends will cas America and Max Claire. Pretty effective. Five catches on six targets for 48 yards. A couple check downs to Bo Jackson. A check down to CJ Donald. So.

What do they have? We're in a show, man. I don't know. Ask somebody else. Sorry.

[B]

They're back there. Yeah, sorry.

[A]

So I don't think this is a. A place calling situation.

Walk up the Paul Feinbaum. He's doing a show where the stats are what? I don't think this is like a fundamental breakdown of we don't know who we are and we're approaching it the wrong way, right?

[B]

No, not.

[A]

Not holistically through the course of the game.

[B]

Yeah, I wouldn't go that far.

[A]

Yeah. Sorry. I don't mean to drag you into me being a jerk. That's all right. Okay. So.

I was curious and it was brought up a little bit this week about last year's loss to Michigan being a galvanizing force. Could a win against Michigan breaking the streak be a galvanizing force? And now it's this. Now it is. I don't like, I don't like silver lining. Like, you know, it's better to lose. So I think that's a cop out. I think like everybody tries to win all the time. Sometimes you don't and then you have to adjust. But I don't think it makes sense to be like, you know what, that was actually a great idea to lose that game.

Galvanizing force.

[B]

Yeah, I think it can be. I, I, you know, to be, to be honest, I wasn't really around the players in the post game interview to like try to get a vibe. Yeah, just the way that things were set up, wasn't able to do that. So.

Yeah, I think it can.

I think for, Yeah, I think for the offense, it's mostly, it's more like figuring out the, the structure of things. Probably getting Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith healthy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, clearly they're not 100. Like, like kudos to those guys for playing through stuff. They're not exactly themselves. So that, that can like cure a lot of ills. I think if they are more of themselves 30 days from now, I, I think maybe it could be more galvanizing for the defense. Like this is the first time. I mean, they only give up 13 points, but yeah, some big plays were hit on them and, and some, some key moments where they had to kind of like rise to the occasion and.

[A]

They didn't do it.

[B]

So. Yeah, I, I'm not going to guarantee that it will be, but I like the makeup of the team. So my, my inclination is to say that, that it probably will be.

[A]

We have not talked about the defense at all. Indiana gained 340 yards. They averaged 6 yards per play. Ohio State gained 322 yards. They averaged 5.8 yards per play. I did think for the very first play of the game to be. Kaden Curry crunches the quarterback to the extent that he is, I think was maybe just the wind knocked out of him, but Stinger or something was down for a while. And Caleb Downs also flips the receiver who catches the pass. Right. It was quite a moment. Like it was a statement on the first play. It was interesting because, like they gained yardage. Right. Like it was a successful play. But Ohio State, two of their star defensive players nailed the guys involved with the play. And I thought it was like a statement on both sides of like, hey, Indiana's has a good offense, they're not afraid of this. But also Ohio State's going to bring it. As you said, it is a.

13 points they gave up. And the touchdown was a short field touchdown, right?

[B]

The touchdown. No, the touchdown. They drove it and threw the back shoulder ball to Elijah Surratt.

[A]

Oh, that's right. And that is like Elijah.

[B]

They got put on the short field three times.

They got put on a short field once and stood up. Indiana moved the ball to the 20 or better three times in the first half and had the kick three times. So the defense was really good. I think defense is pretty good for most of the game.

[A]

Game.

[B]

Indiana had 116 of its 222 passing yards on five plays or four plays. Excuse me. They didn't run the ball at all, which I didn't think they were going to.

[A]

You did not think they were going to.

[B]

And. And they did. It was more just like timely throws from Fernando Mendoza. Like heck of a back shoulder connection to Elijah. Elijah Surat.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

On the touchdown, really good, aggressive. Not entirely different from third in Jeremiah throwing the Charlie Becker to ice the game at the end in the fourth quarter against Jermaine Matthews.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that ball down the seam to. So it was also Becker, right against Lorenzo Styles that I think set up the touchdown drive. Like just like he kind of made three monster throws and I don't know that he did a whole lot else but when he had to make the monster throws, he made three of them.

[A]

So they did stand up on some short field as you noted. There's a little bit of that of again.

When you get into the playoff, like who's gonna make throws like that? I do think Gunner Stockton is a big play quarterback and can make some throws like that at times. I don't know that that Georgia has receivers like that. Zachariah Branch is good, I don't know but like this collection of Indiana receivers is pretty good. Like could Dante Moore make throws like that? Dante Moore made a throw like that against Iowa. So like this is what you're going to get with some of the better teams in the playoff. But even the third down throw that like you said, that kind of clinched it where Ohio State still only, they still only brought four on that when they were calling the timeouts on third and eighth and they only brought four. They brought, they dropped Arvell they're dropping Arvella a lot. I'm a little surprised that Arvell is not more involved in PFF.

[B]

Stuff is up getting after the quarterback. PFF has them blitzing Mendoza on 38.5% of his drop.

[A]

After I would list him two thirds of the time in their game, we wondered how much they would light him up. But even on that play it was odd. Like I think they might have doubled Surratt they had, but that they wound up like they didn't. They only brought four, but yet they wound up in single coverage like Charlie Becker, Jermaine Matthews. Yeah, I don't know that Ohio State would be afraid of that matchup, but they clearly like that matchup and he put it on the money and Charlie Becker made a play. And again Charlie Becker was their fourth receiver, was barely playing until Elijah's rack got hurt. And all of a sudden he's like a go to guy.

[B]

Yeah, he's a good player, big. And the catch that he made. I actually thought Lorenzo Styles did a nice job of like recovering and getting himself in a decent spot and got his hand in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it was just like an awesome concentration catch to, to make it kind of like through, through that distraction. But yeah, their, their receivers rose to the chat. You know, I think you do second guess some of the calls. Even the, the Surratt touchdown.

I think Ohio State ended up only rushing three. They dropped Arvell and Sunny and one of them might have had the back. I mean, the other one was spying because they had. Because Indiana had converted on a QB draw earlier in the game. And then you end up in man coverage with Lorenzo Styles all the way out wide on the tight end. Then you have Dre Matthews in the slot against Surratt and it was just like they don't play a lot of COVID one and they played cover one there like, I don't know, maybe, maybe got.

Got. Got mixed up or got beat on a couple calls defensively. And that hasn't happened a lot this year.

[A]

And like, I'm certainly not one who's in a position to sit and, and criticize Matt Patricia, but it just did feel like there were a couple moments where they did get caught in matchups.

But they weren't really getting after the quarterback. It's like that they're not, they're not getting like.

[B]

He ended up pressured Fernando Mendoza.

On about half of his drop backs. 46.2%. He was 12 drop backs total. He was five of nine for 55 yards.

[A]

Yeah, they I Arvel Reese, according to PFF. 59 snaps, which I think is every defensive snap. Yes. Rush the passer seven times.

Is that enough?

[B]

You actually only have.

Like rushes past rushes against a true pass set which is like drop back game and not a screen or quick, quick game three.

[A]

Is that enough? Like that's. I, I sort of been like we've been talking about that and kind of waiting for that of they're using him a lot to simulate a pressure or, or cause an offensive line to react to him and then they're dropping him. But you know, I thought when they're dropping him against a scrambling quarterback. Right. Then they're going to spy or we saw him blow up a screen last week like that kind of thing. You can see. Okay, we want him here.

[B]

He got caught in a bad spot too on one of the. Oh, it was on the, the fourth down they converted where they tried to draw them off call timeout. We weren't sure whether or not they're going to punt. They were going to hunt and they ran the tight end back across off play action and Arvell bit really. I think Marvel had that player in coverage but bit really hard on the run fake and then that guy kind of got the corner on him and they got the first down there. So you know, it wasn't. I think. Yeah. I think we're talking about. Yes. I also probably say like maybe, maybe not Arvell's best game either.

[A]

But just like. Yeah. How we saw early. We certainly saw him spy early and believe be impactful but we also really see saw him change games.

[B]

I would want to go early in the year. See like early in the year teams were not sliding their protection to him and now they are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Want to see how many times that might have happened?

[A]

Yeah, but. But it sort of was. I thought maybe we're waiting for them to decide to unleash him and then it really has not been that the last two weeks when it's kind of go time here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'll be curious. Sort of their adjustment there. I mean sometimes you don't need it because Kaden Curry's blowing people up by himself. And I know again a lot of frustration in our chat during the game over on Substack.

You know, Kenyatta Jackson getting grabbed a couple times. Are there situations where.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You feel like maybe Ohio State is. Is in a position to maybe make a few more plays there and something else is happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think Ohio State can still win the national championship?

[B]

Yeah, I do. I think this, this, this. If you would have said to me before this game.

What, what would be the one thing that would like give you any kind of pause about Ohio State's ability to win a national championship? I would say if they played a really good defensive line, played a really good one today.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Texas Tech has an excellent one and Oklahoma has a really good one. And I don't know if anyone else in the playoffs scares me in that way. But Ohio State, if once won the national title, we'll probably have to see one of those three teams at least.

So I, you know, I would think twice about this particular matchups maybe, but I think they can still win it.

[A]

Do you think Ohio State went all out tonight?

[B]

All out?

Not with their game plan, no.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

I just lacked creativity, it lacked aggression.

[A]

Do you think it was a strategic choice because it's not do or die or do you think there's some degree of chaotic week?

[B]

I think it's more chaotic week.

[A]

Chris Henry Jr. Brian Hartline and yeah, and, and as Ryan Day said, Ryan Day said both teams had to deal with the same thing. But also, yeah, nobody on Indiana staff took a head coaching job. Indiana wasn't trying to save a five star commit on Wednesday and Indiana played Purdue and Ohio State played Michigan. And so like that, that is all real. It's not an excuse. But if people are trying to analyze why wasn't this better, you think that is reasonable to take into account and, and then that will not be the case three and a half weeks from now.

[B]

I think it.

We talk about spots, right. And Indiana is good. So it was going to be a tough game no matter what. But I also think it ended up kind of being a spot for them. With everything that happened this week and coming off of the Michigan game and the fact that Indiana just like did not have to go through the same thing and it's built up to this. And again it's not an excuse, it's, it is a.

Examination of things, I guess.

But the fact that they gotta play better, like they did not put their best foot forward in this game. This, everything that happened this week was not.

Like, did not create a situation where it would have been impossible for them to play better than they play today. So it still falls back on them.

[A]

Yeah.

We were talking about the deep shot to Jeremiah Smith. It was slightly under thrown, it didn't hit him in stride, but it was still, you know, a good enough ball to create a 52 yard completion. I was saying, I thought after the fact maybe, you know, I Was a little surprised he cut it inside or maybe he didn't try to score in a different way. And then he wound up getting tackled. And you said, what if he was.

[B]

Healthy, he would have scored.

[A]

What do you think's going on there? Like. Like we know what's going on.

[B]

I just don't think he has the stop and start burst that he normally has. I think you saw, you've seen it over the last couple weeks on screens.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

On the perimeter.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just like not getting it into gear as possible. They ran.

What was basically the play they ran in the Rose bowl last year where they, where they ran him shallow across the formation to. And like got him in the flat off a run fake and he scored like he got nothing. Wasn't blocked particularly well. Indiana seemed ready for it. That was the other thing was like, like the stuff that Ohio State tried to do was like, you've tried this and Indiana's too good to get beat by things you've tried already.

I just. Neither he nor cornell Are. Are 100, like I said. And.

I think it just like it shows up in moments where there's, where there's opportunity to like, be more explosive, be the physical mismatches that they are. And I don't know that they're all the way capable of doing that yet, but I kind of think they will be. The next time Ohio State plays.

[A]

Do you think Indiana can win the national championship?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. With that defense?

[A]

Absolutely. Do you think Indiana and Ohio State we'll make some sort of. Well, I don't know that we'll make official picks tomorrow, but we will certainly be discussing it. The idea of an Ohio State Indiana rematch in a national championship game seems what to you?

[B]

Very possible, if not likely.

[A]

I think it would be the thing that I would pick at the moment. Want to see who gets in? Want to see how the bracket shakes out? You guys know more about that than we do. Apparently Duke won.

[B]

Duke did win.

[A]

Yeah, apparently Duke won. So we're thinking that means tulane in the 11th spot and JMU in the 12th spot. We. I don't know that our minds have changed about whether we think Alabama is going to be in. Certainly all this affects Ohio State much more than anticipated because who do, who do we think in the bracket is? The seven likely?

[B]

Texas A and M. So Texas A.

[A]

And m is the 7 and that 10 could be Alabama, could be Notre Dame, could be Miami.

And that 10 would certainly have a chance to beat that seven.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that team would then be the team that has a Chance to play Ohio State. If Ohio State's maybe the two, but we don't really. We probably think they'll be the three. But it's like this bottom of the bracket starts mattering more.

Nobody's throwing games. And again, it is not a silver lining. You can start going through the bottom of this bracket and looking at if Ohio State. Ohio State's in the Penn State seat kind of right now. Right. Because last year Boise State was the three and Penn State was the six. So if Ohio State's the three and you're looking at a six, 11, and the 11 is a group of five team, and who do we think the six is?

[B]

Ole Miss.

[A]

So Ohio State as the three is maybe looking at the Ole Miss, Tulane winner. And by the way, Ole Miss both race too late during the regular season.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'd rather play Ole Miss than Notre Dame, and I'd rather play Ole Miss than.

Looking at the way maybe Miami.

[B]

Bracket seems likely to shake out. And if you had, like, sort of had a choice of which pairing you got to play in the quarterfinal, I would pick the 611.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that seems like what Ohio State's gonna play.

[A]

And then you would be probably looking at semi final against Georgia, regardless of who the 23 is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's the reality that is happening. We will talk about the playoff.

We will talk about the playoff on the playoff reaction show tomorrow. We will go live as soon as that bracket is out.

I can't help it. That's not an excuse. I shouldn't behave this way. I apologize to everybody involved. That guy, you guys.

I need to be a better person, and I'm not. And I'll get. I'll work on it. Red zone field goal.

Doug being a better person. Here are the. This is the last question I want to ask you. What. What are the things that Ohio State must fix in the next three and a half weeks that if they don't get better at it, it has a chance to end their season, Figure out.

[B]

Who their five offensive linemen are and work them together. I don't. I don't. I don't even know if you, like, leave it the chance, right? Like, oh, we're gonna practice a little bit and see who plays better. Pick one and. And work it.

And get Jeremiah and Carnell healthy are probably the two biggest things I like. There's things to clean up defensively, but I like, you know, 13 points to the team that, like, had the third best offense in the country. So.

I think it's primarily offensive And I think it's O line and receiver health.

[A]

Is there a. Oh and.

[B]

Oh, sorry. The most. Probably the more obvious one is.

[A]

Who. What.

[B]

What's the hierarchy for the offensive staff? It's probably the most important thing.

[A]

Figure out the offensive line, get the receivers healthy, figure out the hierarchy and responsibilities for the offensive staff. All, all reasonable on the table. I, I think they might have to do some kind of reevaluation of their red zone philosophy and like the, the grouping of plays that they have in their red zone package right now. Is it not a tear down but a, A fresh look and this to me and I just. There are people on staff who can do that. Keenan Bailey is a guy who in the past I think would be assigned tasks like that. There are smart people who are on the staff and, and like just be. Get like all think about all tendency breakers and all things and like just what are we doing inside? Especially not even inside the 20 short red zone, inside the 10. And then I think they need to again decide this is now this five. They need to decide what their fourth and one third and one play is. And I think that they like just have to make sure. Are we sure? Do we know it feels like they've decided on Bo Jackson, not CJ Donaldson. And at the moment they're on Julian saying that Lincoln Keenholes like is that where they are? For sure?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then okay, then you ride with your guys and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Right. But I don't think they can come away the way the way Indiana covered Jeremiah Smith on the first, third down and one and the way that they covered Bennett Christian on the second, third down and one. I don't think they could be happy with those calls.

[B]

No. It's good coverage, right?

[A]

It is good coverage, but they didn't trick anybody.

[B]

They did not trick anybody. And there was not much in the way. Yeah. Again like it's a really, it's really well coached defense.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

They might play a defense that has some better athletes. They're not going to play a defense is better coach than this one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They just weren't going to get fooled by stuff. And Ohio State did not do a good enough job, I think of bringing different things to the table that maybe would have had the potential of fooling Indiana.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is like sort of understandable.

Because of the nature of the short prep and like what all went on this week. But that's still an issue they have to figure out.

[A]

And then this is mostly just A conversation, I think for Ryan Day to himself is he has to figure out what he thinks about his kicker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't think that means changing the kicker. I think it means using the kicker. And so I think he should think of it like his kicker is hurt. Not hurt that he can't play, but hurt like he isn't full health. Hurt like, like that he has kind of like a hammy. Right. And so normally if the kicker is full go, we would kick a 37 yard field goal on 4th and 4, but he's not, he's hurt. So we're going to go for it on 4th and 4 instead of kick this 37 yard field goal. That's, I think, how you approach this because I think to, to think something else is fooling yourself and that, that this is a situation. And again, even like to go back to the Georgia semifinal, there are a lot of things happening there at once. But you know, they, they wound up in a situation with, with a game on a kicker's foot. And if, if you thought to yourself, our kicker can't make a 50 yarder, he's hurt. We can't end up in this situation. Right. I think it like just have that affect every decision you make along the way.

And then, you know, if, if it's 4th and 21 and it's either go for it on 4th and 21 or kick a 37 yard field goal, then you probably put the hurt kicker in the game. Right. But if it's 4th and 6, I think you don't put the hurt kicker in the game. I think that's how to think about it.

[B]

Yeah. And just close your eyes on kickoff so you don't get tricked into thinking that he's actually healthy. Yeah.

[A]

So I just think, I don't think you, I just don't, don't, don't fool yourself into thinking that it's miraculously going to change because you have too much evidence right now. And it's just the way it is. It's too late to fix it, so you must adjust for it.

[B]

You can't go sign, sign one off the waiver wire.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't know that you can get the number two kicker ready to win the game in three and a half weeks. Probably not. Yeah. Thanks to you guys for being here.

Doug Lamoris and Bill Landis, if you're watching here live in the YouTube chat, we're very grateful that you guys are here and we would invite you to join us tomorrow as soon as the playoff rankings are Announced. We'll plan. We're going to plan to be at the Woody and be broadcasting from there and then have an Ohio State availability, which maybe is an opportunity to ask Ryan Day about the end of the first half.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. To figure out exactly how to attack that. But, yeah, we're going to get. To get them, I think.

[A]

Process. Yeah. And then we'll have a bunch of coverage so we. You guys can come join us on Substack. We're not here to sell you stuff. You can join us on Substack if you want. We're grateful for everybody who's there. We'd love to have you. We're going to be doing a bunch of YouTube shows and podcasts about the Ohio State Buckeyes as they prepare to chase a national championship for which they are still the betting favorite. See if anything has moved. Actually, the odds for Indiana got longer. So Indiana was like plus 250. I think now they're plus 300. So Ohio State is more of a favorite to win the national championship than they were an hour ago. So whatever you think about the Buckeyes there, Vegas, the Sharks are hitting them. All right. You guys know what we think? Oh, yeah. We're just so. We're the luckiest guys around to be able to hang out and talk ball with you guys. So we know there's a lot of frustrated fans out there. We're not trying to kiss your butt. We're trying to talk about this in a realistic way. But one of the things that I think we say is that I don't. They're not going to face a team better than that. Like, if you want to tell us, the Texas Tech at its best, Georgia at its best, Oregon at its best, Notre Dame at its best, has. It has a chance to challenge Ohio State in the same way. Okay. They're not going to face a team better than that. And I will say, I thought the way the game was played. I thought the way the crowd felt. Having watched and walked around the Georgia semifinal, the Notre Dame national championship game last year, I'm not sure this wasn't better. Georgia was a banger. We know that. But like, this was that level. I thought of physicality, of guys making plays. Listen, any enemy plays. And Ohio State made plays. And then like, the failures. Yes, of course. But it wasn't. It wasn't like, again, it wasn't blown coverages. It wasn't, you know, oh, you got to stop on defense. But somebody roughed the passer and gave somebody a free thing. It wasn't like a fumble for no reason. Right. We had two excellent quarterbacks who both threw picks early in this game. We had nervous kickers who both missed field goals. It wasn't perfect football, but I thought it was a pretty high level game. I thought it was a higher level game than what the SEC put out there. And so if your reaction is, man, I'm worried about everything going forward, there's a bunch of teams out there who I think are better than Ohio State. I don't think that's true, but they have to fix some things.

[B]

Yeah. I don't, I don't think there's a. There might be.

There's one team that we know can give them a game. Aside from that, I'm not entirely sure.

[A]

Yeah. All right. Appreciate you guys. We'll talk to you soon. For now, from Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, he's Bill Andis. I'm Doug Lamoriz. And that was the Bill and Doug Show.

What are you doing in a meeting? That could have been an email. Losing interest. Don't let it happen to your money, too. Vanguard's Cash plus account can't help you at work, but we can help with your savings. Find out how much interest you could [e-mail] cashplus offered by Vanguard Marketing Corporation member FINRA and SIPC.

[C]

Tis the season of gifting and holes to deck and the who's in Whoville were in love with new tech. Where can we find Sonos and Samsung and Nintendo? They shouted. Would they find it in one place? This they questioned and doubted when suddenly a who yelled, walmart's the place to start. And D2 added headphones, TVs and games to their carts. With Walmart, their shopping was done in a flurry. They cried out, who knew? And ordered their gifts in a hurry. Shop the latest tech gifts in the Walmart app.