Ohio State handles Penn State, Jim Knowles: Live Postgame Show

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "Ohio State handles Penn State, Jim Knowles: Live Postgame Show"

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Host: Blue Wire
Date: November 2, 2025

---

Episode Overview

Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis, veterans of Ohio State coverage, dive into the Buckeyes’ emphatic 38-14 win over Penn State in Ohio Stadium. This episode is a live postgame breakdown focused on what separates this Ohio State team—particularly its blend of passing-game efficiency and explosiveness. Doug and Bill analyze the state of the Buckeyes’ offense and defense, the symbolic postgame handling of former OSU defensive coordinator Jim Knowles, and what the performance means for both programs, especially the struggling Nittany Lions.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Ohio State’s ‘Mid-Busters’ and Explosiveness (02:37–09:51)

• "Mid Busters": Doug coins the nickname for Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith, referencing their ability to “bust” the notion that Ohio State is “mid” (mediocre) the moment there’s doubt.
  • “When you need it, you throw consecutive 57 yard passes on back to back drives and immediately snap out of it, that’s not mid. That’s like you had kind of a screwy half. But when you’re pushed, when you’re tested, when you need it, you can dial up something to instantaneously break a game open.” (03:33–04:02, Doug)
• Bill pushes back on the idea that OSU ever felt "mid,” pointing out their offensive consistency:
  • “Offense went 89 yards, touchdown, 71 yards, field goal, 75 yards, touchdown…” (04:01–04:41, Bill)

2. Ohio State Offense: Efficiency AND Explosion (06:20–13:16)

• Explosiveness is their separator—the Buckeyes are never in true danger against lesser teams.
  • “Efficiency is like, I think, sort of the indication of your floor, right? And in Ohio State’s is incredibly high. But then…how about a little Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and Marvel Reese…You have them both, pretty tough to beat.” (06:20–07:23, Bill)
• Doug and Bill discuss the challenge of maintaining both efficiency and explosive potential.
  • “I just think this passing game...guarantees passing game explosiveness about as much as anybody could. Because to me, if like, if Julian Saying, Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith can’t do it in a game, it can’t be done.” (10:29–12:04, Doug)

3. In-Game Examples & Deep Ball Mastery (12:04–20:25)

• Bill highlights Julian Sayin’s passing numbers and OSU’s deep-ball perfection on display.
  • “Julian Sayin was 20 of 23…4 for 4 today on passes of 20 yards or more down the field.” (19:13–20:25, Bill)
• Key quote: “It’s like he’s handing the ball off. You’re not supposed to be that good at it.” (19:13–19:29, Bill)

4. Formational Creativity & Offensive Playcalling (20:25–28:00)

• Doug and Bill analyze Ohio State’s creative opening drive, notably using four tight ends (“14 personnel”), suggesting it’s testing both the opponent and putting stuff on tape for Michigan.
• Discussion on Brian Hartline’s continued evolution as a play-caller and how scripting helped early rhythm:
  • “It was maybe the most impressive drive they’ve had all year. Not, like, if you stop and really think about it…” (27:07–28:00, Bill)

5. Ryan Day’s QB Legacy & “QBU” (29:07–33:00)

• Doug reflects on a key Ryan Day quote about intentionally transforming OSU into “QBU” (Quarterback University).
  • “I want to make Ohio State QBU because that’s the position I coach. And that’s what I think this place deserves.” (30:23–31:34, Doug)
• Discussion on how Day’s approach has fundamentally changed the identity of Ohio State football.

6. Julian Sayin’s Grit: The Offense Goes Beyond the Arm (34:53–37:48)

• The hosts and Ryan Day highlight the QB’s toughness:
  • Bill: “On a day where Julian Sayin threw like three perfect 40-plus yard deep balls, the best play was like a seven yard scramble.”
  • Doug: “He wants to recruit guys to the new QBU and then he wants to run them through a Marine obstacle course...Do you have…tremendous processing? Get down in the mud.” (36:44–37:48, Doug)

7. Buckeyes’ Efficiency: The Nation Doesn’t Appreciate It Enough (37:48–39:26)

• Doug: “I just think Ohio State fans…have a real handle on their team. And people who don’t watch Ohio State every day don’t have the same handle.”
• Discussion on outsiders misinterpreting OSU’s methodical (and lethal) style as “low-possession” or “boring.”

8. Jim Knowles Returns: Fan and Stadium Reactions (39:35–45:32)

• Bill reports on Knowles’ quiet, almost indifferent reception as a visiting head coach.
  • “Jim Knowles walked into Ohio Stadium for the first time as an opposing head coach to, like, silence, which…I was just not anticipating.” (39:51–41:13, Bill)
• The scoreboard crew’s persistent cutting to Knowles and Matt Patricia in the fourth quarter becomes a running joke/fan thing.
  • “They cut to Knowles five times…By the end…players around Patricia were pointing at him being like, yeah, yeah, this guy, because they understood what was going on.” (42:36–44:10, Doug)

9. State of Penn State: A Program in Transition (45:43–50:25)

• OSU's win is described as a “bottoming out” for Penn State, signaling major Roster turnover is coming.
  • “It’ll be an unrecognizable program possibly from where it is right now, and Penn State hopes for the better.” (47:31–48:18, Doug)
• Bill notes, “Ohio State had 8.7 yards per play...it’s the most that a Knowles defense has given up since the Peach Bowl against Georgia in 2022…there’s no one that has come close to putting that number up on Penn State [since at least 2016].” (48:18–49:02, Bill)

10. Buckeyes' Red Zone, Run Game, and Defensive Assessment (29:00–64:21)

• Both hosts praise the improved red-zone efficiency, but note areas for future focus—right tackle rotations, running game, and occasional defensive lapses against the run.
  • “Penn State did have that drive, probably the best drive anyone’s had…But…aside from [that], Penn State did not cross the 50 again until the fourth quarter…” (62:50–64:08, Bill)
• Bill plans deeper defensive analysis, especially around tempo issues.

11. Caleb Downs’ “Targeting” Near Miss (57:36–60:43)

• The hosts discuss the non-call on a controversial play, with Downs joking, “I guess God had my back on that one. He showed mercy on me.” (57:36–58:10, Bill quoting Downs)
• Offers perspective on reviewing targeting and the difficulty of officiating intent vs. action.

12. Looking Ahead: Next Stretch & Big Picture (53:11–56:20)

• Three “cruise control” games before Michigan—UCLA, Purdue, and Rutgers—with focus on fine-tuning over the next few weeks.
  • “[It’s] an opportunity to work on some stuff, I think. The next three weeks…stay healthy and work on your flaws a little bit.” (55:20–56:03, Bill)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Doug on OSU’s passing attack:
  “If Julian Sayin, Carnell Tate, and Jeremiah Smith can’t do it in a game, it can’t be done.” (12:01)

• Bill on deep balls:
  "It’s like he’s handing the ball off." (19:13)

• Ryan Day (via Doug):
  “When you go to a place, your position should become that position. And when I came here as the Ohio State quarterbacks coach, that’s what I was thinking.” (30:23)

• Doug on being a Penn State fan:
  “Wouldn’t it be crazy if Ohio State had Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and just a quarterback who was just missing them constantly? People would be jumping out of the C deck, man. Come on.” (32:51)

• Caleb Downs on his would-be ejection:
  “I guess God had my back on that one. He showed mercy on me.” (57:36)

• Bill on Penn State’s fate:
  “This was like a real low point…to give up those deep balls…This is going to be a brand new Penn State next year.” (47:31)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening joke and “mid-busters” nickname: 02:26–04:41
• Explosiveness as a differentiator: 06:20–13:16
• Deep ball discussion & numbers: 12:04–20:25
• Offensive creativity/14 personnel: 20:25–28:00
• Brian Hartline’s play calling evolution: 23:58–28:00
• Ryan Day and “QBU” (Quarterback U) legacy: 29:07–33:00
• Julian Sayin’s key scramble (Ryan Day’s favorite play): 34:53–37:48
• Fan understanding vs. national perception: 37:48–39:26
• Jim Knowles’ stadium experience: 39:51–45:32
• Penn State post-mortem/“bottoming out”: 45:43–50:25
• Red zone/run game focus, defense: 29:00–64:21
• Caleb Downs and targeting review: 57:36–60:43
• Looking ahead to Michigan and Big Ten stretch: 53:11–56:20

---

Tone and Style

• Casual, candid, and slightly irreverent, Doug and Bill bounce between deep football analysis and offbeat asides (from eating Kaniack combos to clowning the video board operators).
• They speak directly as fans and to fans, balancing technical insights with relatable humor and long-view perspective.

---

Conclusion

This episode paints a vivid picture of Ohio State’s unique blend of efficiency and explosiveness—an offense that rarely needs to hit the panic button but has it at the ready. Doug and Bill contrast this with the crumbling situation at Penn State and reflect on the high standards—and high floors—Ryan Day and his staff have set for OSU. The hosts preview a low-stress stretch ahead for the Buckeyes, as all eyes turn toward the looming Michigan showdown. The combination of sharp analysis, moments of levity, and personality make it a quintessential Bill and Doug Show postgame.

Transcript

[Modelo Announcer]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly, Macaroni and cheese. Modelo and College Football College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action looking to reward full time fans who give their all for their team and their school week in and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace em up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer sponsor of the College Football Playoff Modelo.

[Bill Landis]

Tis the season of gifting and holes to deck and the who's in Whoville were in love with new tech. Where can we find Sonos and Samsung and Nintendo? They shouted. Would they find it in one place? This they questioned and doubted when suddenly a who yelled walmart's the place to start. And each who added headphones, TVs and games to their carts. With Walmart, their shopping was done in a flurry.

[Doug Maurice]

They cried out who knew?

[Bill Landis]

And ordered their gifts in a hurry. Shop the latest tech gifts in the Walmart app.

[Doug Maurice]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Ohio State with a 3814 win over Penn State. Douglas Maurice and Bill Landis here along with you to talk about the game that both of us attended in Ohio Stadium on Saturday. Bill and here we are at almost 7:40 east coast time starting a post game show for a game that ended like four hours ago. And I got. It's good, it's good but it's a little different from what we're usually doing. But it's great to be with the folks.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. You, you feel out of your element. Are you okay?

[Doug Maurice]

Out of my element, but it's okay. We, we did attend the game. We went to the post game interviews. We both wrote stories on our sub [e-mail] and I think we will, we'll have a little better handle on what happened there. But I'm going to start with the bad jokes, I think, because why would I change anything else?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

So did you ever watch the show Mythbusters?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, from time to time. I've, I've seen it.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah. What do they do? Do they wear like white lab coats or what do they do on mythbusters?

[Bill Landis]

There, there are times where they wear white lab coats. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

So I have a name. This is I, I would apply it to Carnell Tate And Jeremiah Smith. But I think we also could apply it to maybe like Arvell Reese if we wanted to. But primarily Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate. And I would like to call them the mid busters because right when you think that your team is maybe a little mid, having a little bit of a midday, they bust you of that notion. And there was actually somebody in our substack chat during the game today who said like Doug, when Ohio State, I think was, was only ahead 1714 at the half. So like Doug, are you going to call Ohio State mid? It's like, well, I don't know if they were joking or not, but also like it's only halftime. Let's see what happens. And for instance, when I call the SEC mid because South Carolina handed Alabama a win last week by fumbling in the final two minutes, or when you talk about Florida and Georgia today and Georgia going on an 80 yard march in the final four minutes, right. Like, that's mid to me. If you have kind of like a weird half, but then when you need it, you throw consecutive 57 yard passes on back to back drives and immediately snap out of it, that's not mid. That's like you had kind of a screwy half. But then when you're pushed, when you're tested, when you need it, you can dial up something to instantaneously break a game open. And that is what Ohio State showcased today. Did they not?

[Bill Landis]

Sure. But I, I would even, I think quibble pretty strongly with any notion that Ohio State because like, because Penn State got a drive on them like it happens, man. And the offense went 89 yards, touchdown, 71 yards, field goal, 75 yards, touchdown. And then they fumbled, which is not great, right? But it should be 17 7, if not 24, 7 or 27 going into half with Ohio State scoring every time it has the ball in the first half. So like, was it beautiful? No. Was it a mid? I would say not. But should the situation ever arise where I do think Ohio State is mid, sure, I, I would. I think that's a fair description of Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith because they can flip the game in a nanosecond.

[Doug Maurice]

And I just don't know how many other teams have like that ability. And we've seen Ohio State have that ability before. This is not the first time that I think we've discussed things like this. Like when you have a guy like trivia on Henderson, he can do that in the blink of an eye. And I do think it is a separator for Ohio State. When you have a guy like Terry Smith, the interim coach for Penn State, saying, these are the two best receivers in the country, and no offense to the other Ohio State receivers of the past, but for all the great Ohio State receivers that have run through the place, these are the two best. Like, that's the way people are talking, Bill, about Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith. And it is. It is the thing on. On a day when we continue to see that this sport is wild and crazy and wonderful and Miami lost and Georgia almost lost and Notre Dame, you know, kind of took his time with Boston College, right? I didn't even see that final score. Notre Dame beat Boston College in the end, right?

[Bill Landis]

They won, sure. I sure hope they did. It was 20, 2510, 2510, last I looked.

[Doug Maurice]

The ability, the ability for 2510, the ability for Ohio State to just. And I would apply, like, Arvell Reese some of, like, his pressures and stuff. I mean, he had. He had to play on the other side of the ball where he just did, like, a jab step on left tackle Drew Shelton and then was chasing the quarterback in a nanosecond and like, that kind of thing. And it is such a because. And it is why when we talk about Ohio State's efficiency and again, both sides of the ball combined efficiency, they're as good as anybody in the country. But then they also have this, because sometimes when teams are efficient, they are efficient by necessity. Ohio State is efficient by choice. But, man, when they remind you, brother, they remind you.

[Bill Landis]

And the. The reminder ability is something that Ohio State sort of like, has always had. I remember you've. You've written stories in the past, right, about how you just, like, blink and Ohio State blitzed you, right? Like one. One moment it's seven nothing, and then it feels like in the span of 45 seconds, it's 28 nothing. And this team does not really do that because to your point, they. They just kind of choose to play a different way, but they maintain that ability and bring it out occasionally. Bring it out really, kind of when they have the opportunity to. For the. For the most part, not always, but, yeah, I have both is quite a thing. Efficiency is like, I think, sort of the indication of, like, your floor, right? And in Ohio states is incredibly high. But then you wonder, like, teams coming to national championship, okay, like, you have a high floor, but then, like, what do you do beyond that? And it's like, how about a little Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and Marvel Reese, for you have them both pretty tough to beat. I think it's not. That doesn't make you unbeatable, but it does make you tough to beat, maybe the toughest to beat in the country.

[Doug Maurice]

Because I think. And it's one of those. I don't think you can sort of always have explosiveness and then occasionally be like, well, we'll conjure up the efficiency when we need it, right? Because that's much more difficult to do of like, well, we sort of are predicated on throwing 70 yard passes and breaking big stuff, but if we need to March 2012 plays 75 yards to win a game, we'll just, we'll just dial that up. Then it's like, no, that's not how that works. But I do think that's how it works here. And, and, and the point that I'm making, and this is, I mean, it's like you said, I think you've written in the past. I feel like I'm just writing the same things over and over again now because it is a thing that I think there's a. Still a little consternation with Ohio State fans. And I literally asked Julian saying a question today that was, why don't you just throw the ball 50 yards down the field every single play? Like, can't you do that? And of course I'm being stupid, but sometimes, I mean, like, you ask a stupid question and maybe you get an interesting answer. And he's like, you definitely can't do that. We have to be strategic. We have to be strategic. And so, but when, when they make it look so easy, I do think sometimes even my inclinations be like, well, it's so easy. Why don't you do it more? And it's like, well, there's actually a lot of practice that goes into this. Like, we set it up a certain way, we wait for a certain coverage, and then we have a very skilled deep ball passer and two incredibly big, fast, strong, great hands, great precision receivers who can haul in those passes. But it's not easy. It just looks easy in the moment. But that they threw on the first two drives of the second half right when the game was like, okay, this is a game. Second play of the first drive, 57 yards to Carnell Tate. Second play of the second drive, 57 yards to Jeremiah Smith. That's when they needed it. It's like, okay, activate this activity. And they activated it. The thing that I think Ohio State fans, I don't know if worried is the right word, but wonder about is you think about the Michigan game last Year where no Ohio State receiver had a reception for more than 18 yards. You think about the Texas semifinal last year when they held Jeremiah Smith to one catch for three yards. Like, is that out there waiting for Ohio State? And I. What do you think of that? Is, do you think it's possible that the way this passing game is operating right now, a day where it's just not there, could happen?

[Bill Landis]

Not the efficiency. No. The explosion. Sure. We've seen. We've already seen games where that's the case. But no, I just think they're. I think. I think they're too efficient of an offense. Julian saying is sort of like too in sync for that to be an issue for them. Like, and if it becomes a game that is more of efficiency than you bring into the equation, you know, finishing drives in the red zone, which has been a little bit of an adventure for Ohio State this year. But I have a hard time seeing anybody, like, totally shutting down Ohio State's passing attack or Ohio State finding itself again in a position where, like, Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith aren't getting enough touches. I just don't think it'll happen.

[Doug Maurice]

Because even if they try the efficiency and they're trying to take away the deep shot and opposing defense is doing that, or for whatever reason, maybe an offense is scoring with Ohio State and Ohio State gets into a game against a good team that's tied going into the fourth quarter or something, or it feels like the efficiency bogged down briefly or something like that. I think they will hit the explosiveness button and I think it will be there for them. Now, that's not a guarantee. You can't guarantee anything. But I think part of the reason that sometimes we feel consternation from Ohio State fans during a game when it's a little slow going, why aren't they taking deep shots more is because of the like, particularly probably the Michigan game from last year. Like, well, remember that time they didn't do that at all and then it cost him a game. I just think this passing game and like, the things that Terry Smith, again, the interim Penn State coach, is saying that these are the two best guys. These are the two best. And Julian saying can throw that deep ball as well as anybody. Like the combination of the three of them. I just don't think if Ohio State goes down, they're going to go down, like, without that, without trying that, without succeeding to it, exceeding with it to some degree. And I. I feel like sometimes when it's not happening and fans are waiting for it, what they're actually worried about is it's never going to come. And I think when they need it, it is going to come. This year doesn't guarantee a national championship, but I think, I think you can. I think it like guarantees passing game explosiveness about as much as anybody could. Because to me if, like, if Julian Saying Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith can't do it in a game, it can't be done.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I also, I, I don't disagree with anything you said. I also just kind of feel like they were doing it from the jump in this game. Like I don't the, the 40 yard passes. No, but like Julian saying's first completion was for 20 yards. The second completion was for 18 yards. He threw a 14 yard touchdown to Jeremiah Smith. He threw a 29 yard pass to Brandon Ennis. A little bit of that is run after the catch and then the 45 yard touchdown to Carnell Tate was on their third drive. Ryan Day said that they came out and did a bunch of funky stuff to start the game formationally, try to feel things out, went down and still scored while doing that. And then he said, we felt like once we figured out how they were going to defend us, we attacked it. And they did. They threw a 45 yard bomb for a touchdown on the third possession. They just fumbled the next time they got the ball and never had the chance to do it again. But then the drive after that they hit a deep shot and the driver for that, they hit a deep shot. So I don't, I don't think they were slow really getting to it at all. It's just that like that that fumble was such a momentum swinging play that it's sort of like masks over everything else they were able to do in the first half. When I actually, I mean I thought they were fine, if not like very good on offense for the majority of the first half until they fumbled.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, no, I agree with that. And it is a reminder. It's like we come on here a lot after some of these post game shows and like, you know, other teams are losing, other teams are coming down to the end of the fourth quarter and like Ohio State like was 17:14 at halftime, but they were never in danger of losing the game. Like they were never in close. Never close to in danger of losing the game. Right. Like never close. No, I mean Georgia, so. And they beat a team that fired his coach. Georgia almost lost to a team that fired its coach today. Right. So it's just.

[Bill Landis]

Do you think that was a catch by the Way not to go off on a tangent. Did you see that play?

[Doug Maurice]

I didn't see it. I stopped and got a Kaniak combo.

[Bill Landis]

And I just got a Kenya combo, too. Nice.

[Doug Maurice]

Does it feel like your body is. Wants to die after you eat a Kanye combo?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Every, like, once I get, like, done the fourth chicken finger, I'm like, I didn't eat six, but then I still eat the next two.

[Doug Maurice]

I just like, I would take it if you could get. I just want. When you don't really eat a ton during the day, I just need the amount of food. But if they wanted to give me four fingers, some fries, and like, a side of cauliflower, I'd be down with that. But that's not an option. So you got to get six fingers and a bunch of fries, and then it feels like your brain is exploding with grease.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, Yeah. I also. I pulled into the drive thru and they had a guy there. Like, they had people, like, taking your order, I guess, because they had been busy.

[Doug Maurice]

Yes.

[Bill Landis]

With people leaving the OSU games. Like, I just pulled up and rolled out the window. And the guy goes, you look hungry. You want a Kaniak combo? And I was like, nope, I guess so I don't have a choice now. Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

Long day at the office. So. So it's just one of those where, like, that's. That's the definition. To me, you're mid. When you are actually in danger of losing to an average or below average team. And that's the kind of thing that is happening across Colle. College football is happening in the SEC constantly, but it's just not happening with Ohio State football. And I just think, like, some of the things they're doing because I went back and I wrote about all three deep shots and, you know, like, the protection was perfect on one of them. It was. The protection was perfect on the first. On the second tape, on the 57 yard.

[Bill Landis]

57 yarder. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

A couple of the other. A couple other times. Like, it wasn't perfect, but it was definitely good enough. And it's like, there's things that have to happen here. And I think, like, the. The proof is in the. Penn State is dying for this. Ohio State threw for more yards on the three deep shots than Penn State threw four in the whole game. Penn State's thrown for 200 yards against a Big Ten team once all season. It was exactly 200. Like, you can see teams who are dying to do this kind of thing. Bill. And are unable to do it just absolutely have no chance to complete a ball 57 yards down the field. And Ohio State does it in a way when Terry Smith is saying like our number one thing, our key to victory is don't let them get behind you. And they got right and it's just, it is, I think it is the. I mean, I mean like of course it is. It's the most dangerous thing in college football. And just because they don't use it as much as they could or maybe don't use it as. As much as. Yeah, that's right. My, my foot like the screen running a little weird for a second my foot kicked the table and I was like, did I just kick ourselves and do like a different graphic screen? So I'm glad it was you, not me.

[Modelo Announcer]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly, macaroni and cheese. Modelo and College Football College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action looking to reward full time fans who give give their all for their team and their school week in and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace em up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer sponsor of the College Football Playoff model.

[Bill Landis]

Tis the season of gifting and holes to deck and the who's in who Louisville were in love with New Tech. Where can we find Sonos and Samsung and Nintendo? They shouted. Would they find it in one place? This they questioned and doubted when suddenly a who yelled Walmart's the place to start. And D2 added headphones, TVs and games to their carts. With Walmart their shopping was done in a flurry.

[Doug Maurice]

They cried out who knew?

[Bill Landis]

And ordered their gifts in a hurry. Shop the latest tech gifts in the Walmart app.

[Doug Maurice]

Just because they don't do it as much as they maybe could or as much as fans would would want them to, doesn't mean they can't, right? And again like, like I, I think it is, I think it's the most dangerous thing and I like if there would have been a time where people would have said like oh Ruben Bane on Miami's defensive line, he's the most dangerous like the most dangerous thing in in college football is him menacing you or Jeremiah Love getting the ball and dropping a spin move on you as the Notre Dame running back. Like that's the Most dangerous thing. And it's like there's a lot of great players, like they are simultaneously as efficient as anybody and they have the most dangerous thing in the sport to bail them out if and when it doesn't go right sometime.

[Bill Landis]

And that is a combination of Jeremiah Smith and Carnel Tate. Right. It's not. It's not just Jeremiah.

[Doug Maurice]

No, it is like those.

[Bill Landis]

It takes it to another level. Yeah. And Julian Saying.

[Doug Maurice]

And Julian Saints. Yeah, and Julian Saying. Basically taking every opportunity. Like he's not. He's not overthrown guys by five yards. There's. There's not like a. Oh, man, I can't. Like that doesn't happen. It lands no man's in their hands, man. Or it's like a little under throat and they have to come back and jump 12ft in the air and make an awesome catch.

[Bill Landis]

But it's, it's rarely, if ever, inaccurate. It's just sort of. It's either right on the money. When the SEC, the one that Carnell take the first 57 yard of the second D pass, I think I turned to you and said, it's like he's handing the ball off. So it's that or. Yeah, it's got a little error under it. It might be slightly under thrown, but they're sort of taught to do that. Ohio State's quarterbacks, because you don't want to overthrow them. We want to give your guy a chance. So that's basically what you get the. It's not a problem. But I do think they're so good at it. Like, you're not supposed to be that good at it. Ask any coach in America. You're going to throw the ball 30 yards on the field, what do you hope your completion percentage is? I said like, I don't know, 50. And like he was 4 for 4 today on passes of 20 yards more down the field, and he was 3 for 3 on passes with 40 something air yards on him. Right. So when they're that good and that efficient, which is like extraordinarily efficient, you think to yourself, why don't you do that all the time? I think common now or conventional wisdom would tell you that if they did it all the time, the efficiency would come down. I don't know if that's a reason not to do it, but it is. I think the, the feeling of why don't they do this all the time is heavily influenced by the fact that they are so efficient when you're not supposed to be as efficient at it as they are. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

Can we talk about the opening drive for Ohio State? Stay on the offensive side of the ball for a moment. Yeah. Watching the different formations, watching, you know, them run 14 personnel with four tight ends, like, not on the goal line. Was that not on the goal line for the first time this year that they tried a formation like that with Nate Roberts at fullback and the other three tight ends in the game, if.

[Bill Landis]

They'Ve done it other times, it's been rare. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

I just was thinking to myself, man, they are putting a lot of stuff on film for Michigan to have to pay attention to. Did you get that vibe at all?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think that's part of it. You do have to. This is the, like, the stretch you want to start doing that stuff. Right. And, and the way. With the way the Penn State season has gone, you sort of include them now in the conversation with the Purdues and UCLAs and Rutgers that you're going to play before you play Michigan. So that was definitely, if not the, like, chief motivation, like an additional benefit, I think, of doing all that. I think primarily what they were doing was like testing Jim Knowles's sort of adjustments, like, okay, if we do this, what are they going to do? If we do this, what are they going to do? So that you get a little bit of a beat on it for later in the game. So. Which I thought was actually, you know, it was kind of dizzying watching all the different personnel groups run on, run on and off the field, and they were doing shifts, emotions on practically every play. But I guess to their credit, and they did have two weeks to kind of get that game plan together, they didn't look like bumper cars, right? They. They more or less, like, look pretty efficient as. As they were doing it minus a player, too. So I think it was, like I said, like, primarily testing some stress points of the nose defense. But sure, I mean, yeah, Michigan, everybody, they're going to play the rest of the year, who they could play in, in the postseason. There's. There's a lot to think about. If you watch that first drive for.

[Doug Maurice]

Ohio State when they put in the three tight ends and Nate Roberts has a fourth tight end at fullback, you said they're going to throw, and then they didn't. They just handed off. But it feels like, why are they doing that at that spot on the field? It's because at some point they're going to do that and they're going to throw out of it. And that's the thing to me, of, like, okay, so they didn't throw today. Okay. They're going to put that formation out there and throw against Michigan from 14 personnel on first and 10 from the 21 yard line and hope to get a tight end behind the defense.

[Bill Landis]

Sure. As long as here's where the frustration can come in because like Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate aren't on the field. So if you're gonna do that on like third down, like a money down and you're gonna throw, just put Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith. No, I agree, but sure, as an earlier down wrinkle, why not? They did, they threw out of it like the Wilcox Marek for a touchdown against Wisconsin. And I can't remember the Benedict Christian touchdown today might have been out of that personnel grouping too on the, on the one or two yard line, wherever they were. But yeah, regardless of where they're using it, they do have to throw out of it to protect it some because you can'. Look and see that number 83, Nate Roberts is on the field and they're going to run the ball right like that. But that's what Ryan Day has talked about that all year.

[Doug Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

You can't put guys onto the, onto the field that have a tell that the defense can just like automatically know what you're doing. So they have to keep mixing that up. They didn't, they didn't do it in that particular moment, but I do think they will do it again moving forward. Throw out of it.

[Doug Maurice]

You, you've often said, right, that Ohio State doesn't necessarily script an opening drive like so many coaches and so many teams do. But that was, that felt scripted, that. Right.

[Bill Landis]

That felt about as scripted as you're gonna see from Ryan Day, I think. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah. So can I, can I offer maybe a theory on that as well? I think one of the things that is a continuing evolution of the Ohio State offense this year is the art. Is the art as a first time play caller and Brian Hartline continues to get the hang of like, yes, these are the plays. This, yes, this is what we practice. But like what, what do you establish early on to set up something later? What do you piece together that first down leads into second down leads into third down leads into. And I think maybe doing something like this. And again, like I, I don't know if Ryan Day would, if, if we put the word script in a question on Tuesday, for instance, like would he be like, yeah, that was scripted or would he still say, well, it's just things we talked about, we wanted to do. But when you're changing personnel that much and you're creating sub packages. And it's something clearly that the whole offensive staff discussed going into the week. We're going to do this. I think it's a little bit of paint by number because you obviously are building things off of each other. And I did think the way those plays connected, it wasn't just 14 personnel for 14 personnel sake. It was like, well, this led to this and then they went back to this and then it led to this. And it was a very successful drive. And I think as you have a new artist, it's not a bad thing to have them paint by number a little bit. Because guess what? When you're done with the paint by number, all anybody sees is a beautiful painting. They don't know that they told you where to fill in the spots. Right? Just put yellow in number five. You just see a beautiful painting. And as you're trying to build an artist, I thought maybe that was an interesting thing, an interesting way to do it. And then now ucla, Purdue, Rutgers, maybe there's not as many numbers, but the artist continues to flourish. I thought, I thought it might have been like an interesting strategy by the offensive staff at large to like just create the sequencing that they want Heartline to have naturally and that he's still growing into.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I, I think that's well said. Like, and the other thing that's interesting about it, like, is because it very much felt scripted, I do think it's good for Brian Hartline to sort of like feel that rhythm and then hopefully, you know, sort of keep it in his mind and learn from it and, and it becomes almost like reactionary down, down the road.

[Doug Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

But, but they did that without the benefit of like awesome field position on their opening drive. They started from, they started from their own 11.

[Doug Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

And I think a lot of times you'll hear Ryan Day say, well, we had some ideas for openers of things we like to do. Like the Texas game, I think was that. But they just had terrible field position for most of the game or like the opposite. They started like against Illinois, they start really deep in opponent territory and that kind of throws off what you want to get to too. Most of their drive started from like normal position, the 25 or the 20. But for the opening drive to start on the 11 and for them to just kind of like stick with what they wanted to do coming into the game and then turn it into an 11 play, 89 yard touchdown drive, that should be something that I think Brian Hartline, most importantly should be able to build off of right. He is still an imperfect play caller. That much is obvious if you watch. Watch the game.

[Doug Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

I don't think anybody's saying, you know, he's been an A plus across the board or that he's not still working his way through things, but that, yeah, that, that that drive should be in theory, a little bit of like a. I don't know, like pivot point maybe for him as he continues to progress into his play calling career. It was pretty, it was pretty well put together and like, I don't know. Of course, like, Ryan Day is a huge hand in that, but Heartland does too. Like, the job is not merely play calling. The job is also designing the thing and figuring out what you want to do, you know, Sunday to. To Friday before you go play the game. So I'm not trying to take credit away from him, but it was maybe the most impressive drive they've had all year. Not like if you stop and really think about it, to go that distance on the opening drive against that defense while you're mixing in a bunch of different stuff and like, really not ever getting your own way. It's pretty good.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, I mean, I, I do think it was. It's a lot to build on. And then like at the end, right. I mean, it's just, it's just, it's right play call in the right spot and perfect execution by everybody. But you get a safety blitz from Jim Knowles and you throw right at the blitzer and hit Jeremiah Smith for a touchdown. And it's just again, like, there's a lot of things I think when a team is succeeding that you can take for granted, but that's just like basic execution, right of like. All right, your call. Beat that call. And then the quarterback read it and made the right throw and the receiver won on his route and made the catch. And it's just a, it's just a 14 yard touchdown pass from Julian sand to Jeremiah Smith. But like, man, there's like the, the beauty and the simplicity in that for all the Reds. You know how many different red zone conversations have we had at various times this year? And we could have been having a red zone conversation about that first drive and instead they like, they got, they got the perfect play call at the perfect moment and had perfect execution by the two guys running the offense. It's just like, you got to appreciate it.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, and the red zone was pretty good today too. 5 for 5. They had the one field goal, would otherwise finish their drives with touchdowns.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, we, we were talking about. So You. We're gonna. We want to make sure we talk about Jim Knowles a little bit because you wrote a very interesting story on our substack about Jim Knowles. But you and I. When did we write about, like, the Julian saying Heisman thing? Like, two weeks ago?

[Bill Landis]

It was after the Wisconsin game.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, okay, so after the Wisconsin game, like. Yeah, like the bye week, Right? So like. Yeah, okay. So, you know, people are like that now. Like, the Julian saying Heisman thing is, like, coming around. And we were like, man, it feels like, I don't know, like, should we write about that? It's like, well, we already did write about that. Right. I don't. I don't know what you're supposed to do, but I. But I. But I did think. Rob Baller from the Columbus Dispatch asked Ryan Day an interesting question about quarterback development. And Ryan Day said, whenever you're a position coach, I think when you go to a place, your position should become that position. You. And when I came here as the Ohio State quarterbacks coach, that's what I was thinking. And I'm just happy that these great young quarterbacks have continued to want to be part of what we're doing. But for. For all the things that are happening and everyone watching and listening to this knows this. What has happened with the quarterback position and particularly throwing quarterbacks like NFL style quarterbacks, like, there have been great quarterbacks at Ohio State. Braxton Miller and J.T. barrett and Terrell Pryor and Rex Kern and Joe Germain and plenty of other guys. But like this run that Ryan Day basically change the face of the. As blue of a blue blood as you can have in college football and change the identity of what Ohio State football is. And like, it is still reaping the benefits of that now as the head coach. Quite a thing. And it was just like. Yeah, I know, but I thought for him to say it that way. Ryan Day came to Ohio State as an offensive coordinator and a quarterbacks coach, and he thought to himself, I want to make Ohio State QBU because that's the position I coach. And that's what I think this place deserves. And that's what I'm going to demand of myself. And look, I don't even know what to say about it, but sometimes you're staring the obvious in the face. But the way he said that today really hit. I don't know, it struck me in a way, you know?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, he. He said versions of that before, I think. Okay, but maybe. Maybe not quite that sort of explicitly. Yeah, it's odd. And I wonder too, like, it's a great thing to say or it's a great, it's a great goal to have. Right. But, but really his charge whenever Meyer hired, hired him was just like enhance the passing offense.

[Doug Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

Make it a functional passing offense.

[Doug Maurice]

Make it functional.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

Functional would have been the word. Yeah. And.

[Bill Landis]

But in doing so, yeah, he just made Ohio State like the destination for the best quarterbacks in the country. Country. So I don't know, I mean, Urban would say like, we've always had the best quarterback quarterbacks in the country. Right. Because he would say that about J.T. and he would say that about Braxton and they were very good. Just different.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

But it is, it is. I don't really know what else to say about it too, other than it is pretty remarkable that a program would, a program of this stature. Programs change our identity all the time, but not really programs like this. And we're like, we're a decade into it now almost so people like know what we're talking about. It's like let's suddenly we woke up this morning and discovered like, oh, High State throws the ball really well. But when you see a game like today where Julian saying is 20 of 23 and what those two receivers are doing, you can't help but reflect on just kind of how ridiculous it is they were able to do that and keep doing it.

[Doug Maurice]

Wouldn't it be crazy if Ohio State had Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and just a quarterback who was just missing them constantly? People would be jumping out of the C deck, man. Come on.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, they'd be Auburn. Yeah.

[Modelo Announcer]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly, Macaroni and cheese. Modelo and college football. College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action looking to reward full time fans who give. They're all for their team and their school week in and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace em up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward. Because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer. Sponsor of the College Football Playoff, Modelo.

[Doug Maurice]

Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail] so it is one of those things like Brian Hartline simultaneously has made Ohio State wide receiver you. Right. And like we understand that and like we obviously talk about that a lot, but it was just, I don't know, there was something about it that struck me today. Anything about us about the Ohio State passing game you want to talk about?

[Bill Landis]

Does the Ohio State passing game include Julian saying running?

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, because we know, we knew it. We couldn't, we didn't even. Ryan Day said it post game, but we didn't even have to wait for him to say it. We could have been on the post game show immediately after the game saying, we know Ryan Day thinks this, but then he said it, right?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. He said he thought the biggest play of the game was Julian saying scrambling on third and five, slipping two tackles in the back field, lowering his shoulder at the end of the run and getting a first down on a drive that ended with the, the Carnell Tate 47 yard touchdown pass. Which yeah, I felt a moment you, I think we might have even said it to each other like that was, that'll be Ryan Day's favorite play of the game. On a day where Julian saying threw like three perfect 40 plus yard deep balls. The best play was like a seven yard scramble. But it's like pretty wild to me that he's able, maybe not even able, willing. I think maybe it's the willingness more than the ability to do it that is more kind of striking. And even the way that like Julian Saying talked about it after the game, right. He was just like, that's what I had to do. That's what the play called for. So I, I scrambled and I got the first town and I kept the drive going and like I'm not, I'm not trying to like whatever do the thing where you compare it to the way like I think CJ Shroud in particular talked about scrambling or like earlier in his career. But it was, it was interesting to me and like clearly like Justin Fields put his body on the line all the time. Ohio State's had this before. Like we wondered, we wondered how much like Ryan Day would want the Will Howard prototype. Right after winning a national title with Will Howard and Julian saying no offense to Will Howard is. It's not even the same universe as a passer. So it's like let's not even compare it. But like you say like you're talking about like toughness and like playmaking like Go get a yard. We ain't got to get a yard. And they're very different physically, but they might have similar mentalities when it comes to that part of the game, which I do think is interesting.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, that's what he wants. And it's one of those things again, it's like he wants, he wants to recruit guys to the new QBU and then he wants to run them through a Marine obstacle course and see it if they'll crawl through the mud and throw themselves over a wall to get a first down. Right? It's like, do you. Are you the most skilled passer in the country? Do you have an exceptionally quick release and innate accuracy and tremendous processing? Get down in the mud, right? Like that's.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

But he, like, he knows he, he wants to bring you in and then he wants to test your metal in the moments and see what you've got. And again, like, I think we've had, you know, a little bit in the office. He's like, I don't know, does he maybe just one of guys who.1 guys who get down in the mud. But again, it's, it's sort of the thing too of what we talked about, that if your efficiency is your floor, right. As an offense and then the explosiveness gets you over the top. I think Ryan Day thinks accuracy, processing, all that stuff, that's your floor, that's creates opportunity. But then in the moment when stuff goes wrong, what gets you over the top? It's your quarterback scrambling for nine yards on third and five.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

It's a guy who's willing when it goes wrong, that's a national championship winning play. And so we can see offensively, you can see in the, in the passing game, we'll talk about the run game in a second, but you can see their floor and their ceiling working in concert. And so I think everybody, and this remains the thing that I just think, and I don't know, maybe they're coming around, but I just think Ohio State fans at this point in the year have a real handle on their team. And people who don't watch Ohio State every day don't have the same handle. And it is a team, I think, because they still are efficiency first. I think you have to absorb it and understand it on a down to down, choice, by choice basis to fully appreciate it. Otherwise you get trapped in. You know, I even saw some stuff just people who are scoreboard watching. We've talked about this before, but I saw some like national people on, on Twitter, you know, like when it's 1714 being like, oh, they place, they play low possessions. Like, this is what happened. And it's like, that's all true. That's all true. But, like, you know, like, there's. It's not like they're playing terrible. It's like one thing happened. So I almost kind of like that a little bit. Like, it's a reward for Ohio State fans to. To just think to themselves, yeah, I get my team. Maybe I'm still a little frustrated by him at times, but I get it. And if you don't get it, it's because you don't really understand what's happening here because you don't watch every play like I do.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. That. That maybe is. This season. Might have the most of that that I can remember.

[Doug Maurice]

Yes, I agree.

[Bill Landis]

And that's not. I mean, I guess I could see it, how it'd be frustrating for Ohio State fans. I don't think it's, like, necessarily a bad thing as long as you kind of think about it the right way, which is what you just stated it.

[Doug Maurice]

All right, let's talk about Jim Knowles. You wrote about Jim Knowles after the game. Tell us a little bit about. Since we were on the scene, you staked out the entrance to see what kind of vibes Jim Knowles was bringing into the building and how he would be received at Ohio Stadium.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I just thought that there was a real. Because I remember I said this to you. So that the Texas game, I found myself just sort of randomly over by where the visiting team comes in, and there were students there, like, underneath the south stands, not in close proximity to Texas, but close enough, like, shouting distance. And they were, like, yelling stuff at Texas as they were walking into the stadium, and. Which is fine. Teams do that all the time. It happens every stadium across country. I thought we were gonna get some of that with Jim Knowles coming back. And Penn State's bus rolled in around, like, 9:50am or so, and there were, like, really no Ohio State fans around. There may have been a few. I definitely didn't hear any. Nobody. There were no booze. We're no. Like, hey, Jim Fu. Anything like that. There were a couple Penn State fans, and they. They tried to get, like, a We are Penn State chant going that, like, kind of fizzled out immediately. And it was just like Jim Knowles walked into Ohio Stadium for the first time as an opposing head coach to, like, silence, which. Which I was just not anticipating. But then I also, like. As, like, the way the game played out. I thought it was, like, kind of appropriate for the way I thought that Ohio State handled Jim Knowles being back in Ohio Stadium, which was, like, aware of it, planning against it, but, like, didn't let it consume them the least bit. And, like, he got it from fans, like, clear. I'm not saying, like, no one ever booed him.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, but it wasn't like they booed him.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, they boot the crap out of him in the fourth quarter, but it wasn't like there wasn't just this. Like, this. I wonder if there would be, like, an energy where, like, people were, like, on tilt toward him. Right. A little bit. Fans that then might not directly, but sort of just be kind of like in lockstep with Ohio State itself and the way that it played. I'm like, I got none of that from. From the second he walked into the stadium through the fourth quarter when they decided they were going to have fun and put up. Put him up on the video board and then boo him. Like, that was really just not a factor at all, which was surprising. But I also think a little bit instructive maybe about how Ohio State just kind of goes about its business.

[Doug Maurice]

And then the video crew got ruthless. Right. It is for all the things we try to understand about play calling and the relationship between Ryan Day and Brian Hartline and. And the relationship between any head coach and a coordinator and how much say does Ryan Day have in the defense and when does he go into that room? I am now almost equally as curious about the relationship between the Ohio State athletic director and happens on the video board, because last year when Ohio State beat Indiana, they put. They had like a fake newspaper, right. That they put up on the video screen that said, like, Google this or Google me. Right. About Kurt Signetti.

[Bill Landis]

Yep.

[Doug Maurice]

Okay. And then today, and I just like, if. If you're an Ohio State fan that wasn't at the game, I don't know if you know this. They. They. In the fourth quarter, they showed Jim Null sitting in the press box on the video board. And I think the first time they did, there was maybe some scattered booze, and then they kind of cut away from it. And then they went back to Knowles a second time and there were more booze. And then they started cutting. When they cut away from Jim Knowles, they cut to Matt Patricia and there were cheers. And then they cut back to Knowles again, more booze, and then back to Matt Patricia. They cut the Knowles five times. And by the end, when they were cutting to Matt Patricia, the Ohio State players around Patricia on the sideline were like, pointing at him being like, yeah, yeah, this guy. Because they understood what was going on. So Ryan, day after the game, said, like, he didn't feel like anybody. There wasn't anything this week that players are trying to prove anything. Does the video board get clearance for those things? Is it a rogue video operator or is it somebody who they know is a little bit of a wild card, but they can have plausible deniability? Oh, he didn't know he was going to show Jim Knowles. But by the way, Steve, do your thing. We know you're good at this, right? Did someone order it? Did someone order the code? Nulls. We don't know what's happening there. And I guess it doesn't matter, but the idea, it undercuts a little bit of, like, nobody cared. It's like, well, somebody cared. Even if just a person in the press box who's hitting a button to, like, show Noles. Show Noles. At least that person cared a little bit.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that person cared. I think. They're not a. They're not a rogue operation. You're. It is interesting to bring up maybe Ross Bjork's role in all this because he is very, very into enhancing the stadium atmosphere. But this is not the first time something like that has happened. I think I could be wrong, but I think they might have played Rocky Top when they were beating Tennessee last year, and then against Texas when. Fourth quarter, when Texas had the ball with a chance to drive and potentially go tie the game, and then they didn't do it, and it was clear the game was over. There's a song by a rapper named Big X, the Plug Called Texas, and they played that song, like, immediately. Like, there wasn't. You couldn't take. You couldn't half a second between the.

[Doug Maurice]

The.

[Bill Landis]

That. That play ending and the song beginning. So they were ready for it. Like, they were. There were. There were conversations beforehand about, like, when we know we're gonna win this game, we're playing song. So, yeah, they're kind of on it. The. The video board and sound team in Ohio Stadium.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah. Which is good. Which is what? It's college football. It's great. It's like, I don't know if you'd do that in NFL Stadium, but you should do it in a college football stadium. But I just, like, would like to, like, you know, nobody is. Nobody's above it. Like, Ohio State's not above it. They're not above anything. Like, this is. This is ball. This is college football. It's like, ah, that guy is.

[Bill Landis]

They played Zombie Nation too. I think when, when Jeremiah Smith made that one handed touchdown catch to go up 38, 14, they played the, the Penn State pump Up song.

[Doug Maurice]

Oh, okay. They did everything but play that. So. Yeah, so anyway, so, so, so one of the things we like to do here, I mean that we, we end up doing two post game shows, one live here on YouTube and for you guys in the podcast feed. And then we do one for our substack subscribers on Sunday morning where we take questions and comments there. What we normally do, Bill, is we kind of talk about like what Ohio State did well on this first reaction show, little bit rewatch stuff and then on Sunday we try to dig in maybe a little bit more and like what could they fix? What could they be better at? Because that's often what people are asking about. So I actually don't think we're. I don't want to spend a lot of time right now on the CJ Donaldson fumble. I don't want to spend a ton of time on the, the Tegra Shabola and Josh Padilla rotation at right tackle. I think I think we can save a lot of that stuff. But, but I do think like in the end, like this is, this was quite a thing, like just that little bit of thing to do that to Jim Knowles. Right. And it's all in good fun. But I do think, and just talking to some people who know better than us about Penn State afterward like this, I think it's fair to talk about Penn State here because there are certainly people here who care about this. This really. I, I was a little bit surprised. I thought it was like you come in, you're, you know, you were competitive in the first half against Ohio State. Like what more can you ask for, right? This season has gone completely south. There were definitely some people who thought this was more of like a bottoming out for Penn State than that and that this was sort of like a real low point to give up those deep balls to just kind of get overwhelmed in the second half like that. And it is just quite a thing to see a program in that state when it has been a program that has been in the top 10 so many times when playing Ohio State recently. And Ohio State just kind of, they were already down, but Ohio State just kind of stomped on them a little bit in the second half. And again like the people who know Ohio State know Penn State the best, I think really felt like that mattered and that like this is an indicate. Like I think, I think they're talking about like just like gigantic Roster turnover. Right. That like this is, like this is a real. Not that that's a surprise because that happens now in the nil world, the portal world, every time there's a head coaching change. But this is going to be a brand new Penn State next year. And I think by the time Ohio State faces Penn State again in Happy Valley in 2028, like it, it'll be an unrecognizable program possibly from where it is right now. And Penn State hopes for the better.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I'm just looking because I look about this one. In the story that I wrote, Ohio State had 8.7 yards per play, which is a lot. And it's the most that a Noel's defense has given up since the Peach bowl against Georgia when he's Ohio State in 2022. But I just went back through on CFB stats too, and they only go back to 2016. There's no one that has come close to putting that number up on Penn State. Like there's a couple seven, there's a couple sevens, there's no eights. So this was like quite the thing to do against like, I don't even care if they're like down on their luck against a Penn State defense. To put up basically nine yards per play is something that hasn't happened in like since at least 2016.

[Doug Maurice]

And just to be in a situation where again, Terry Smith has talked so much the past couple weeks about needing to improve the vertical passing game, Ethan Grunkmeyer's 19 of 28 for 145 yards, as easy as Ohio State can make it look, it's so painful and so difficult for pen. And it is such, it is just such a roadblock for them. And it has been. And even while they've been winning the past couple of years, the receiver room has just been a constant topic and, and quarterback development is a constant topic. But I would just imagine, and I've sort of been saying this from the start, but if you're a decision maker, Penn State, if you're Pat Kraft, to watch the way Ohio State played today and the ease with which they throw the ball down the field, that has to trigger something in you. And I just like, not that they maybe weren't thinking that way anyway, but I, I would, I, I could see Penn State decision makers coming out of a game like this and being like, we have to be able to do that, that that's what we have to be able to do. And we have to put nil and rev share into the receiver position. Into the quarterback position. We need to hire a real quarterback coach who can develop and recruit. And that just that every. It. Everything for Penn State is such a slog, even in a lost season. I wonder if this was like a line in the sand.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think what you're doing is speaking Kaylin DeBoer to Penn State into existence, which is a name that came up as I was talking to some Penn State folks walking out of the stadium on Saturday.

[Doug Maurice]

Yep, that's come up. I've been on the Braum train the last couple days now. Jeff Brahm. I mean, like, you just. You have to be able to. I don't know. That's what I did today, Bill. I went to a football stadium. I was there for eight hours. I watched football, I interviewed people about football, I wrote about football. I ate chicken in the car and I sat down to do this show. I don't know what's happening. And by the way, when I turn on my TV and say, play football for me, my TV gives me a giant Mickey Mouse finger. So I wish that I could watch football.

[Bill Landis]

How is this.

[Doug Maurice]

This is America in 2025. It's the second most popular sport. What are we doing? I'm paying hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to watch football. Can I watch it? No, I cannot. Am I getting a real. Are we getting refunds for this, by the way? Right? Like YouTube TV has to give us some money back for not giving us the thing that we're paying for. Right.

[Bill Landis]

2020 credit, by the way. Not that I don't want to take this 20 credit. Yeah. I don't take this credit car down this road. But like Cody Campbell, the Texas Tech guy, right, Is like lobbying for. For college football to negotiate its television rights as like one entity and not as conferences. I wonder if something like this is something that pushes that oh any further.

[Doug Maurice]

Right?

[Bill Landis]

Because like this, this would never, ever happen with the NFL.

[Doug Maurice]

Oh, no, no. Roger Goodell would walk into the room and put a gun to everybody's head and say, put tv. Put football on tv. End of discussion.

[Bill Landis]

Which is why this will all be resolved by Monday Night Football. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

For real.

[Doug Maurice]

God, I wish there was an NFL game like tonight. I want to watch Cincinnati, Utah.

[Modelo Announcer]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly. Macaroni and cheese. Modelo and college football. College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action, looking to reward full time fans who give their all for their team and their school week. In and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace em up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer. Sponsor of the College Football playoff Modelo.

[Doug Maurice]

For 140 years, MultiCare has been in Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with local communities and expanding access to care. Together we're building a healthier future. Learn more@ multicare.org Dr. Flush said. Sounds like a perfect day. It was a perfect day. I'm just saying I didn't have time to catch up on the Louisville score because yeah, like if I, if I had been driving home on a normal day, I might have had like YouTube TV playing on my phone and catching up on some stuff. Not watching it of course, because I'm driving, but just like listening to it through my car radio when I couldn't okay, Ohio State, now what this is going to be, this is going to be a little bit of an interesting stretch and I think it's better for Ohio State because there have been times in the past they, in 2015 they played Michigan State the week before Michigan and lost. They had a year where they played Penn State the week before Michigan. It's like what is the Big Ten trying to do to itself? Alabama's playing the Citadel freshman squad the week before Auburn and Ohio State's playing Penn State State the week before Michigan. Please talk to your schedulers. But Ohio State's now like coming out of this game that was like the second tent pole the season just with three games that nobody expects to be particularly competitive. I suppose from the chat it seems like produce being competitive with Michigan. I don't know. Is that correct?

[Bill Landis]

Is seven, seven. 30 seconds to halftime. It looks like Michigan has the ball in scoring range.

[Doug Maurice]

As I always say, like underestimate, underestimate Barriotom at your own risk. But it's gonna be a little bit of an interesting stretch here for Ohio State because often in situations like this, like what do you want to work on and what do you want to get better at? And clearly there's like still a little bit of run game stuff, but it's gonna be like a little bit of cruise control here. Is it not, not to, not to like tell people, like not saying like don't watch Ohio State. But it's, it's, you know, this is a pretty deep and competitive Big Ten. But like the three teams that they're getting ready to play. I would not put in that tier of deep they've been. Even though UCLA has a couple goofy wins this year.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. One road game left at Purdue and then there was a time maybe where you could convince yourself that, I don't know, maybe that UCLA game will be interesting. And it's like UCLA has come back down to earth. Yeah. It turns out that Jerry Newheisel is not Vince Lombardi. So yeah, it's just like an opportunity to work on some stuff, I think. Right. The next, the next three weeks. You know, stay healthy and work on your flaws a little bit. I think even like, I don't know, Ryan Day wasn't asked about it, but like on that last drive when Ohio State was running out the game like both Luke Montgomery and Degar Shabola came off the field, they walked off sort of under their own power, but they did get hurt. So, you know, offensive line, health run.

[Doug Maurice]

Game.

[Bill Landis]

Probably clean some stuff up on defense against the run too in terms of like getting off of blocks and getting lined up and stuff like that.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

So it's not like they don't have, they don't have things they can fine tune. But yeah, it's kind of a, kind of a three week ramp up now to Michigan.

[Doug Maurice]

You know, we'll. Let's give the folks one more bit of information here and we just so greatly appreciate everybody being here. If you want to support us, subscribe to this YouTube channel. Subscribe to your podcast feed so you don't miss anything that we're putting out here. Give a like, give a review on Apple podcasts, Tell a friend about the Bill and Doug show. If you also want to support us and support some good gear, you could go to roback.com r h o b a c d k.com if you use the code BAD20 when you make a purchase. And again they have like really cool Ohio State stuff in their game day collection. You'll get 20 off your order, which is good for you off your first order. Bad 20. But then also like that helps us. So you. We went to the game. Jeremiah Smith spoke afterward, Julian sand spoke afterward. Caleb Downs spoke afterward in addition to Ryan Day. And I said I'm doing offense and I'm doing deep shots because that's fun and easy and you go right about the other football stuff. So you did talk to Caleb Downs. What did Caleb Downs say about the targeting call that a lot of people thought was going to be a targeting call and have him kicked out for the first half against Purdue. And then they said, no, it is not targeting. What did he say about that?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, well, I think you saw it on his face. Like, I didn't, I didn't see this when we were in the stadium, but then I saw a clip of it on. On Twitter afterward. Like, he sort of like, looks to the sky after they, they overturned the. The targeting penalty. And he said, he said, I guess God had my back on that one. He showed mercy on me. Yeah. So I think I. I do believe, like, I'm not trying to start a thing. I do believe that is reviewable during the week. So I don't actually think he's entirely, like, out of the woods yet. But for the time being, he will not be suspended for the first half against Purdue.

[Doug Maurice]

So the hardest thing about targeting, and it's like, man, there's nothing. There's nothing that college sports fans like more than targeting discussions. It's like, why would we talk about the team that you love and you're invested in when you can just deal with the nitty gritty of officiating stuff? And it is important, and the goal is to keep young men as healthy as possible in a violent game. The thing that they've always said is, like, you can't. It's. You can't legislate intent. And I've always sort of thought, like, why not? Because intent does drive action. And I think to look at action and try to say, I think I can see some intent there, I don't think is a terrible idea. But every official that I've ever, ever talked to at Big Ten media days and all that stuff is saying, they just say, like, we just can't get into the business of intent. We just have to go by what happened. Here's the letter of the law. Did this happen? So I thought in looking at it, that there was like helmet to helmet contact. Right. And that he did maybe like now launch. Right. Launch is a little bit of intent there. But I also thought, like, even if there was helmet to helmet contact, he sort of did like, turn his head and he was sort of trying as much as he was sort of jumping into the player. He wasn't like a missile all the way.

[Bill Landis]

He powered down a little bit. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

Like, I almost, like, it was a little bit of a head turn that still, I think led to some kind of. Of helmet to helmet collision. But I thought you could. He's a very smart player. He's as smart of a player as you'll find in college football. I think you could see him in the moment almost being like, I'm gonna make a hit. Oh, wait, this is not what I'm. I should be doing. I'm trying to, as you said, power down. And then he just. He wasn't. No holds barred in the moment. And. And I think you have to protect players, but I think a little bit trying to legislate intent isn't a terrible idea. I thought maybe that saved him a little bit. I don't know.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I thought for sure he was toast.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah, I did today. Everybody in the press box did. Did we not? Like, we all were sort of. We're not experts, but we kind of thought it was gonna be targeting.

[Bill Landis]

I mean, he did. He did. I think everybody. He walked over to the sideline and didn't have his helmet on. And I think he. He knew or thought at least strongly that his afternoon was over. So maybe someone is looking down on him that he's not like. I like watching it in slow mo replay. I think I could see how they got there. Like, maybe it wasn't in. And I think intent sort of is a big part of it. But live, like, bang, bang, like, yeah, Like, I thought. I was like, okay, well, he's done.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

But, yeah. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's. It's. It's hard to officiate on the fly, and it's apparently difficult to assess even in slow motion.

[Doug Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

So we'll see what. We'll see what happens. My guess is that he'll be fine, but probably worth asking Ryan Day about on Tuesday just to double check.

[Doug Maurice]

Okay. All right. So we do have. Bill has a story about Jim Knowles up@billandgo. Issue.substack.com I have a story up about all the deep shots and how they arrived at all of them on our sub stack. I am going to write a story on substack probably for Monday. Just as I was leaving the stadium, I just was thinking to myself, if you were a Penn State fan, if you were a Penn State player, if you were part of the Nittany Lions in any way wearing blue and white in Ohio Stadium today after that loss, with where that program is, with how much this season has blown up. And then also, like, the second part of that is like, what Ohio State is projecting right when you're in that stadium and the way that they are playing and. And both sides of the ball and that they changed two coordinators and haven't missed a beat and they lost so much of the roster. It. It really felt to me like not that you didn't know it already, but like, Penn State is a program in disarray and it's remarkable considering where Ohio State was after the Michigan loss last year. But Ohio State, I just, it feels like to me is a very connected program. Fans to team players, to coaches, administration to coaches, like, like all the way around. And the idea of would Penn State, if you walked off, would you have been jealous of that as a. Not just like, oh man, they beat us, but like, I wish I was, that I would trade spots with them right now. And that kind of feeling in sports and how often has Ohio State felt that recently? And the idea of not just like you're mad at somebody for beating you, but you kind of wish you were them. And so I want to write about that because I just, I was really just like sort of taking in the moment because like State College is a great place. Happy Valley is a great place. Beaver Stadium is an awesome stadium. It's a great place to watch a game. But even with all of that, I could see a Penn State fan be like, man, this is what we need to be. So look for that on substack. What else you got coming?

[Bill Landis]

Latest I am going to write about the defense. Some, like you said. I did talk to Caleb Downs. I. He was not like, whatever, like super insightful about, about what, what went wrong, particularly on that 15 play, 75 yard touchdowner, I think is what it was. But there's some stuff in there I think worth like looking back at, especially against the run, that I want to take like a second look at and write about that a little bit. The thing that wasn't like Penn State did have that drive, it was probably the best drive anyone's had against Ohio State this year. Agree. But K. Tron Allen, right, the running back who was a big part of that drive, he had 26 yards on his first carry, which was the first play of the game. And then he had 20 carries for 50 yards the rest of the game. So it's like that drive happens, you're like, boy, this doesn't look good. And then aside from getting put on a short field by a fumble, fumble recovery, Penn State did not cross the 50 again until the fourth quarter when the game was over. And then that drive ended with an interception in the end zone. So it's like I, I think Ohio State's defense is in a position and especially with like where the season is and who they're going to be playing that, that it probably makes sense to sort of grab onto that one drive and dissect it and figure out what happened. But I also don't want to be like this is a huge problem when like it was one drive of, of one game.

[Doug Maurice]

So.

[Bill Landis]

But it's not like, you know, there was tempo involved with that and mixing of tempos and that came up in the Illinois game and I know people were concerned about it then too. So I'm gonna write some about that with a little bit of input from Caleb Downs.

[Doug Maurice]

Okay, that sounds like a plan. We'll be back with a Sunday sound off show for our Substack subscribers on Substack on Sunday morning. Questions, comments, we work them in. We kind of take a second look at the game and, and more often than not sort of dive into like where Ohio State can maybe get a little better. And then we have a bunch of stuff coming this week on Substack and we're building up, everyone is to that Ohio State Michigan game at the end of the month. But for now we're really grateful for you guys. We normally have been doing our post game show right after games and that was not the case today. It was like a change up to see how people responded to see, you know, we, what we experienced being at the game. It's always great to be at a game to get your, get the vibes there, get your binoculars out, check what's going on, be able to talk to people. So we were glad to be able to do that and we're glad that you guys found us at 8 o' clock at night as the World Series getting ready to have game seven. So. Yeah, that's not on espn, right? That's on, that's on my tv. When I tell my TV to play baseball.

[Bill Landis]

It will, it will play baseball. And you should be able to watch Nebraska, usc. That's on NBC, I think. Yeah.

[Doug Maurice]

Okay. It is weird because it's like I almost feel like, did someone rub a genie bottle? And it's like, oh man, I wish I'm. I wish ESPN wasn't part of college football. And it was like, poof, they're not. And it's like, well, it's not exactly what I meant because I still want to watch Cincinnati Utah, but I just weren't worse. They weren't such SEC honks. Anyway.

[Bill Landis]

Do you know this? Like the. So there's a. Are the games that are on ABC that are ESPN sports productions, are they also not on. Available on YouTube TV or is it just stuff that's on the ESPN networks?

[Doug Maurice]

No, I think it's all, I think It's ABC too. It's all ABC and ESPN stuff. Yeah. All Disney owned stuff. Yeah. All right, that'll do it. Thanks to you guys for being here live on the YouTube chat. Thanks for watching back on YouTube, listening back on podcasts again. Like subscribe, tell a friend. We'll catch you soon. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug lamaris and that was the Bill and Doug show. And now Superhuman Shack.

[Bill Landis]

I keep telling them not to say that. I'm no superhuman. Believe it or not, I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity. Moderate to severe OSA is a condition where breathing is interrupted during sleep with loud snoring, choking, gasping for air, and even daytime fatigue. Let's just say it could sound a lot like this. Sound familiar? Learn more@don'tsleeponosa.com this information is provided by.

[Doug Maurice]

Lilly, a medicine company. For 140 years, MultiCare has been in Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with local communities and expanding access to care. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more at multicare. Org.