Ohio State linebacker grades: Is Sonny Styles actually the best OSU LB? And best LB pair since 2005?

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Linebacker Grades – Is Sonny Styles Actually the Best OSU LB? And Best LB Pair Since 2005?

Podcast: The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Date: December 20, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis (Blue Wire)

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Episode Overview

Theme:
Bill and Doug dive deep into Ohio State’s 2024 linebacker room, debating whether it’s the program’s best unit since 2005 and discussing the ascendance of Sonny Styles as potentially the best linebacker in college football. They compare Styles and Arvell Reese to historic OSU LB duos, evaluate their All-American snubs and status, dissect defensive structure and assignment, and preview the future of the linebacker position at Ohio State.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Is This the Best OSU Linebacker Group Since 2005?

• Initial Question: Bill asks, "Is this Ohio State's best linebacker group since 2005?" (02:14)

• Doug agrees, stating, “It’s the best one I’ve covered." (02:21)

• The guys compare 2024’s Arvell Reese and Sonny Styles to legendary trios:

  • 2005: A.J. Hawk, Bobby Carpenter, Anthony Schlegel
  • 2006-08: James Laurinaitis and Marcus Freeman
  • Mid-2010s: Darren Lee, Raekwon McMillan, Joshua Perry

• Quote:
  “Not two first rounders... If you want to argue, give me Joshua Perry, Raekwon McMillan and, and Curtis Grant and Darren Lee, whatever. I’ll hear that. But I think you could make an argument... it’s the best linebacker group since ‘05.”
  – Bill Landis (02:26)

2. The Rise and Role of Sonny Styles

• National/Big Ten Recognition:

  • Sonny Styles not being a first-team All-American is “a crime.” (04:55)

  • Styles should have been Big Ten LB of the Year, Butkus award nominee, and first-team AA.

  • "He is honestly... the best linebacker in the country.”
    – Doug Lesmerises (05:00)

  • Debate over All-American selections: Jacob Rodriguez (Texas Tech), Arvell Reese (OSU), C.J. Allen (Georgia), David Bailey, Aiden Fisher

  • Styles was first-team by PFF, but that may not guarantee a Buckeye Grove tree.

  • “He’s the only [college LB with over 200 snaps] to have not missed a tackle [all year].”
    – Doug Lesmerises (07:57)

• Skillset/Evolution:

  • Recruited as a safety; played as a freshman despite being a year ahead of schedule

  • 2022: prepping to cover Georgia tight ends as a teenager.

  • By 2023: moved to true LB and fully blossomed.

  • “Last year, Sonny Styles was still like a safety playing linebacker — now he’s a linebacker playing linebacker.”
    – Bill Landis (10:19)

  • NFL draft stock: “If he lands outside of the top 15, I’d be shocked... he just turned 21.”
    – Doug Lesmerises (12:39)

  • On-field metrics (PFF): #2 on run defense, #1 tackling, #2 coverage grade.

  • Sonny is seen as “the rock in the middle” allowing Reese and Downs to “circle around and be dangerous,” stabilizing the defense. (19:03–20:43)

3. Arvell Reese – Usage and Impact

• Defensive Usage:

  • Heavy focus early in the year on Arvell as a pass rusher and spy.

  • Snap breakdown: 299 on D-line, but only 49 true pass rushes; 225 in coverage — many as a spy.

  • “He might be the most effective spy in the country.”
    – Doug Lesmerises (24:29)

  • Defensive strategy: using Reese’s reputation to affect offensive game plans, sometimes more as a deterrent than an active disruptor.

  • “It’s like he broke Arch Manning and then Matt Patricia has just the rest of the year been like: he might break your quarterback too. Watch out... Nope, he’s not [rushing], but he could.”
    – Bill Landis (27:54)

  • Debate: Should Reese rush the passer more, or does his presence alone tilt the field enough? Is OSU’s ‘mature, selfless defense’ sacrificing some havoc and explosiveness for ultra-high efficiency? (29:42–30:36)

4. Defensive Structure and Philosophy

• Sonny Styles as the Central Piece:
  • Having Styles as a true, solid MLB enables the “floating,” versatile roles for Arvell Reese (LB/Edge) and Caleb Downs (DB).
  • Doug: “I don’t know that any of [this] works if you don’t have that middle linebacker who can kind of just make everybody right.” (20:43)
  • There’s “a symbiotic relationship” between all three.

5. Grading the Linebacker Room & Peer Comparison

• Current Grading:

  • Doug: "I'm at 95."
    Bill: "I'm at a 97... I don't know what else you want."
    (39:01)
  • Subscriber average: 96.

• “Batman and Batman. Batman and Superman”

  • Styles and Reese seen as the rare double-star pairing (not “Batman and Robin”; both are alphas).
  • Discussion of future comparisons — this duo sets the standard for years to come.

6. The Future: Next in Line at Ohio State

• Third LB/Peyton Pierce:
  • Third contributor but not the same star level; “pretty solid,” his PFF grades waned late.
  • Expected to be starting Mike in 2025.
  • Doug expects Riley Pettijohn as his running mate, with TJ Alford and Sincere Johnson mixing in.
    (34:10–35:00)
  • “Pierce is the Sonny. Pettijohn as the Arvell for [next year].”
    – Bill Landis (36:01)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If somebody doesn’t plant a tree for Sonny Styles, that’s a crime. He’s the best linebacker in the country.”
  – Doug Lesmerises (05:00)

• “Tommy Eichenberg and Steel Chambers are not Arvell Reese and Sonny Styles. This is a leap, brother!”
  – Bill Landis (08:43)

• “It’s like Batman and Batman. Batman and Superman... it’s Deadpool and Wolverine.”
  – Bill Landis (39:40)

• “You could make an argument... it’s the best linebacker group since ‘05.”
  – Bill Landis (02:26)

• “What an achievement — to have Sonny Styles and Arvell Reese... set a new standard for Ohio State linebackers.”
  – Doug Lesmerises (36:30)

• Personal Metaphor (Mini-golf Night):
  Bill likens experiencing the 2024 LB duo to having an unexpectedly spectacular night at a go-kart/mini-golf track with $100, saying you enjoy the memory forever even though future nights don’t measure up. “That’s what Arvell Reese and Sonny Styles are... mini golfing, go-karting with a hundred bucks in your pocket.” (36:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:14] – Is 2024 the best LB group since 2005?
• [04:55] – Sonny Styles All-American/awards debate
• [07:57] – Styles’ national stats: zero missed tackles
• [10:19] – Sonny Styles’ position evolution and draft stock
• [14:28] – Styles’ PFF metrics and defensive role
• [18:55] – Sonny’s perception and snap efficiency
• [20:43] – Defensive structure: Styles as middle anchor
• [23:28] – Arvell Reese’s role, usage as spy vs rusher
• [27:54] – Reese’s impact and Matt Patricia’s strategy
• [29:42] – Defensive philosophy (havoc rate vs efficiency)
• [34:10] – Peyton Pierce and next year’s linebacker room
• [39:01] – Grading the linebacker room, future comparisons

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Tone and Style

Bill and Doug keep things conversational and lighthearted, mixing sharp analysis with friendly jabs and inside jokes. The vibe is accessible for die-hard and casual fans alike—with moments of reflection, OSU lore, and genuine admiration for the players’ evolution and the coaching job by Matt Patricia and James Laurinaitis.

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Final Takeaway

Ohio State’s 2024 linebackers, led by Sonny Styles and Arvell Reese, are not only statistically elite but set a new modern standard for the program and perhaps the country. Their unique combination of NFL-ready talent, versatility, and team-first roles make them “mini-golf night with a hundred bucks”—a special moment OSU fans may chase for years to come.

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For further episodes and in-depth playoff coverage, be sure to subscribe to The Bill and Doug Show.

Transcript

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[Bill Landis]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. It's linebacker time position group breakdowns dougl Maurice and Bill Landis Bill Landis, can I ask you a question off the bat?

[Doug LaMarice]

Sure.

[Bill Landis]

Is this Ohio State's best linebacker group since 2005?

[Doug LaMarice]

I guess I would defer to you pre2014 but it's the best one I've covered.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think it might be the best no Pre Lauritis since AJ Hawk, Bobby Carpenter and Anthony Schlegel in 2005 and Hawk and Carpenter were both first round picks because like Laura Knightis was great. Obviously he's a three time all American, three time first team all American and six, seven and eight and some very Marcus Freeman. You guys have heard of Marcus Freeman next to him but but like not two first rounders. Not Two first rounders and Darren lee and Raekwon McMillan and Joshua Perry. Like, great. Darren Lee's a first rounder. Raekwon McMillan's borderline first rounder. Right early in the second round. Joshua Perry's a third round pick. Like, if you want to. If you are in. How dare you. How dare you. Bill and Doug, show mode. How dare you say that you have to go back to 05. Give me Joshua Perry, Raekwon McMillan and, and Curtis Grant and Darren Lee, whatever. Like, I'll hear that. I'll hear that. We get it. But I, I think you could make an argument which is. And then there's the Wilderness.

[Doug LaMarice]

Wilderness lottery picks. We don't. Like, they're. They're both being drafted by non playoff teams in the first round.

[Bill Landis]

That. So there's that. And like, that's the thing. And it's really only two guys instead of three. So it's like you're not, you know, it's like we just, we're doing a receiver conversation. It's like Carnell Tate, Jeremiah Smith. Yeah, but about the third guy. There's not really a third guy conversation here because Peyton Pierce plays and we certainly will talk about him, but there's more often than not, only two linebackers on the field and the two linebackers on the field, and they are very recent. Sunny Styles complement each other in such a way. We were sort of talking about like Cornell Tate and Jeremiah Smith. Maybe they're similar in a lot of ways, but yet they don't feel like they get in each other's way. Actually, like Orville Reese and Sonny Styles feel like gears fitting together and, and that they can do the same thing, but yet they then are also different enough. That, man, what a combo. I think I would argue it's the best linebacker group since 05 and just would like to shout out our friend Bill Davis, hope you're doing great. What. What a distance we have come.

[Doug LaMarice]

He kept the tradition alive. The proud tradition of Ohio State linebackers. He destroyed it.

[Bill Landis]

He destroyed it in his hands. I got it back. So. So where, like, where are we at here, Bill? Like, how good is this? How. What are we talking? Like, what are we talking about? What are we doing?

[Doug LaMarice]

I think. Well, we're talking. I like, I don't think either one of us wants to be like, the kind of. I don't know. I think we'll call out, like, guys getting short shrift when. When, like, it actually matters. Sunny Styles not being a first team All American will be a crime if that's what happens by the end of the season because he's, he keeps landing on these second team all American teams. Like that guy needs a tree in Buckeye Grove because he is. Honestly, I like, I, I think he's the best linebacker in the country.

[Bill Landis]

So I'm not really aware of college football and what happens in the rest of the sport. It's not really my thing. Jacob Rodriguez from Texas Tech finished fifth in the Heisman voting and is sort of like the right. He's, he's first man up on that playoff team. And I get that. Who else are. Who are the other guys making all the first team all American teams at linebacker that are keeping Sunny Styles off of it. If Jacob Rodriguez is taking one spot probably on every team.

[Doug LaMarice]

Listen, we love what we love. Harvard. Reese. I think Sunny should have been big deadlinebacker of the year. I think Sonny should have been the buckets award nominee. And I think Sonny should be the.

[Bill Landis]

First email American instead of Arvel.

[Doug LaMarice]

If it has to be that conversation, then yes, I think they could both be first email Americans.

[Bill Landis]

Are most all American teams pick. Are they picking two linebackers?

[Doug LaMarice]

Three. Let me see if I can.

[Bill Landis]

Well, and who's this third guy? Who's this chump? No. No offense. Congratulations to that person and his family and his coaching staff. Whoever he is, I'm sure he's a great player.

[Doug LaMarice]

Let's see here. Looks like Jacob Rodriguez, Arvell Reese, C.J. allen of Georgia, very good player. David Bailey is like was on the Walter camp team as a linebacker for some reason.

[Bill Landis]

Good.

[Doug LaMarice]

Aiden Fisher, good player.

[Bill Landis]

Good player.

[Doug LaMarice]

Sonny was first team by pff. But I don't, I don't know if that meets the threshold of you get a tree in Buckeye Grove or not.

[Bill Landis]

Jerry will get that. Jerry's giving trees on his way out.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Because if his last act is to give Sunny Styles a tree for first team, pff, that'll be a fine farewell.

[Doug LaMarice]

But yeah, the. The AP All American team. The three linebackers were Rodriguez, Allen and Reese. The Walter camp team, the three linebackers were Rodriguez, Reese and Bailey. And the three linebackers on the AFCA team were Rodriguez, Reese and Fisher.

[Bill Landis]

Okay. Aiden Fisher met his parents at the Big Ten championship game. Fine family. Fine young man. We had him on our old show. Bryce Betcher. Loved the cut of Bryce Betcher's jib. Just a hard, hard, hard, whatever guy. I didn't want to say the A.

[Doug LaMarice]

Word.

[Bill Landis]

But like, no offense to them. I think if I was drafted guys for my team, I think I would take Sonny Styles, like, slightly, but I think I would. That's. No, that's. And I don't think that's a slight.

[Doug LaMarice]

Based off the way he's played this year. Yes, he's just like, he's done everything well. He's good in coverage. He has not missed a tackle yet. Like, he is two of. Of every linebacker in all of college football who played at least 200 snaps, and Sunny's played 600. He's the only one to have not missed a tackle.

[Bill Landis]

All right, so let's start with Sonny. Since what are you coming in? I love. Like, this is. This is now. I had no idea. Bill Landis says Arvel Reese is stealing all of Sonny Styles's awards. I love it.

[Doug LaMarice]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying maybe people should have an open mind to perhaps the two best linebackers in the country or are on the same team, or two of the best three linebackers in the country are on the same team.

[Bill Landis]

God, I'm just imagining Bill Davis watching this show or listening to this podcast and the pride swelling in his heart. It's like the Grinch of linebacker coaches. And his heart swelled three times that day thinking about. And it's just one of those things. And this is. This is not against anybody, but, like Ohio State's linebackers, we've just been in this stretch where they've been good, where they've been solid. Right. And I do think, for instance, they. They had a stretch for three years where the starting linebackers for three straight years were Tommy Eikenberg and Steel Chambers, and Tommy Eikenberg was the linebacker of the year. Tommy Eichenberg is a very good football player, and Steel Chambers is a good football player. They are good, solid football players. Tommy Eichenberger, Steel Chambers are not. Arvell Reese and Sunny Styles. This is a leap, brother. Is it not just like in talent and production and danger and menace and also like just being solid and doing your job. It's a leap.

[Doug LaMarice]

It's a pretty big leap. Yeah. Like this physically, very different skill sets, traits, very different impact on games. Very different draft stock. Way different, like, across the board. It is. It is a. It is multiple leaps from where. And like, I agree with you, like, Tommy, I can bring really good, like, college linebacker and like playing for the Raiders, like, because he's a fourth round pick, it's not like he's a scrub. But these guys are. Are very different. Yeah, these. These are like the new standard, maybe for what. Of what it is to be an Ohio State linebacker. I think these two guys.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, so, so this, the Sunny Styles evolution of in early as an early and you know, not as an early but like reclassified. So comes a year early. 2022 is kind of like, let's get him ready and bowl prep to cover Georgia tight ends. Like this guy who still is supposed to be a high school senior. It's like, oh, wow, that's kind of like an interesting thing. And then 2023, it's like, oh yeah, he's going to play. It's like he's a safety and it's like, hey, that's great. He should be a true freshman. He's a second year college player and he's starting. That's tremendous. Is he playing the right position? And then they get him to linebacker Last year, and I think Jake Butt has said this, maybe you also said it that like last year Sonny Styles was still like a safety playing linebacker and now he's a linebacker playing linebacker. That it wasn't that this evolution, it's a, it's, it's a weird path. And it's like, oh, what's the deal with the guy who Bill and has just declared as the best linebacker in the country? It's like, oh yeah, no, he wasn't a linebacker and everybody kind of around the team sort of maybe knew he should be a linebacker, but yet the team made him a safety and he finally got here. Look what happened.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't want.

[Bill Landis]

To.

[Doug LaMarice]

Kind of whatever retcon how I felt like I thought Sunny Styles should have been a safety. Like I was excited about, maybe not should have been, but I was excited about him being a safety. Like, man, that guy's big and he's versatile and that seems kind of fun to put him in a safety spot.

[Bill Landis]

Did you think what Caleb Downs is at Ohio State? Is that what you were thinking? Sunny Styles could be as a safety?

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, I, but I also think with, with the understanding that as he got older, he would move closer to the line of scrimmage. I thought he, I thought like by the time he got to the NFL, he might be like an edge player and maybe he will be when he gets to the NFL. Oh, I say doesn't put him there a lot because it puts Arvell Reese there most of the time. But I think he can be a really good edge player too, if you wanted to put him there. Which is part of the reason why I think he'll get drafted so highly.

[Bill Landis]

But, but you thought it's like maybe Sonny Styles would be what Caleb Downs is. Maybe Sonny Styles will be what Arvell Reese is. And instead, it turns out Sonny Styles is what Sonny Styles is.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, blending parts of. Of both of those kind of ideas into.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug LaMarice]

Into one thing, right? Like, super smart, sound incredibly rangy, incredibly explosive. Just like there aren't a part in Part of the.

[Bill Landis]

Like.

[Doug LaMarice]

Have we discussed this on a podcast? Like. Like, part of the reason Sonny's draft stock is so high is because there is a shift in the NFL, like, back to running the ball more so. So, like, traditional box linebackers, I think, are a little more in vogue than they were whatever five years ago, ten years ago. But I. The other component of that is, like, there aren't many guys who are built like Sonny. You can play that position either. Like, they're like, two things kind of converging there that I think will make him. If he. If he lands outside of the top 15. I think I'd be shocked just based on the way people are talking about him now. So. Yeah, I don't. I don't know how many ways I can say I think he's the best linebacker in the country, but I think he's played that way. And honestly, like, seems like he just continues to get better and better every week, too. And you say all that about him. Like, he also just turned 21. Like, he's. He's a baby. He's gonna go play in the NFL for 15 years after this and retire when he's 35, and who knows what he's going to do in those 15 years.

[Bill Landis]

And. And he is part of what, like, Arvel Reese is such a unique weapon, and part of what makes him special is what he can do as an edge rusher. Sonny is really multifaceted, but is a traditional linebacker. You can put him in the middle of the field, have him diagnose things, have him make calls, and then he can cover, he can blitz, and you can put him up on the line if you want. He can run sideline to sideline. He's effective in the run game. He doesn't miss tackles, and he's smart and fast and physical and is a complete linebacker top to bottom.

[Doug LaMarice]

He has, again, pff. Is just a guide. He is the number two run defense grade on the team behind K. McDonald. He has the top tackling grade, and he has the number two coverage grade behind Caleb Downs.

[Bill Landis]

Crazy. Okay.

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[Bill Landis]

And so again like you look 416 snaps in the box. Like traditional linebacker stuff. 124 on the D line according to PFF 50 kind of in this like like 60 kind of like or like 58 more like in in receiver coverage kind of stuff. But this is a traditional primarily in the box linebacker. And again like you're coming out. I don't want to say hot like you're like you're making very good points here but I do you think it's maybe not everyone exactly understands exactly how good Sonny Styles is because he's surrounded by Caleb Downs, ORVILLE Reese, Kaden McDonald and Kaden Curry.

[Doug LaMarice]

I think there's just been like a little bit of like whatever slowness on the uptake with Sonny and part of it is like Arvel like really exploded onto the scene with what they were asking him to do against Texas and the stunts and the blitzes and the pressures and all that. And he's, he's really good at that. And like, I don't, I don't say anything. I said to take anything away from Arvel Reese, who I also think is one of the best linebackers in the country and deserving of being a first team All American. I just think because of what Sonny tends to do is like is. Is less flashy, that he does get overlooked a little bit. And I just, I just want to. I think Ohio State fans know I'm more talking about the way that he's viewed nationally in comparison to Arvo. He's just as solid as you can be as a linebacker. Like, he doesn't make mistakes and like. And we are I guess privileged to like see the, the development arc that you kind of laid out to like he made a decent amount of mistakes when he was playing safety. He made probably too many mistakes in his first year as a linebacker and now he's this not even really like finished product yet because he's still so young. But the, the jump that he's made in his just sort of like snap to snap efficiency is remarkable. And I do think it maybe gets taken for granted is not the right word.

[Bill Landis]

But.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, just like overlooked a little bit. I think because of the nature of what he does and it shouldn't be.

[Bill Landis]

You almost, you almost wish he didn't come in early, then you had one more year because that first year winds up being a little bit. And it. I don't want to say a lost year, it's development and that kind of thing, but just looking at it. But he should have been a high school senior. 2022, 69 snaps 2023543 2024, 897600 so far this year, PFF grade is just a guide. First year 55.6 second year 76.1 third year 71.4. Fourth year this season 89.8. And he's basically the second highest graded PFF linebacker in the country behind Jacob Rodriguez who finished fifth in the Heisman voting. So for, for. He does remind me of Laurinaitis a little bit that I feel like you can just feel him have like sort of control. And it's interesting because they have two guys like this because Caleb Downs also has control, right? But even. Caleb and Arvell both move around a little more, right. That some like part of the skill set and the excellence of Caleb Downs and Arvell Reese is that they can do multiple things. But there is a little bit of like, it's not that Sonny can't do multiple things, but is Sonny a little bit more of you? You stand him in the middle of the defense and you know where he's going to be and what he's going to do. And if that allows two extraordinary talents like Caleb Downs and Arvel Reese to sort of circle around and. And be dangerous and Sunny is the rock in the middle, it is quite a thing. Quite a thing.

[Doug LaMarice]

That's really well said because I. I don't know that we've probably talked about this sort of defensive structure exactly in those terms like, we've talked about, like, man, Arvel Reese can get after it. It's good that Matt Patricia is putting it up front. And man, Caleb Downs is super versatile. It's good that Matt Patricia lets him float, but I don't know really that any of it works if you don't have that middle linebacker who can kind of just make everybody right if the. If the play ends up getting to him. And they all like, Caleb Downs makes people right. Arvel Reese makes people right. They all. There's like a symbiotic relationship there, of course, but Sunny's a big part of it, and I don't. I don't. He doesn't get discussed really in that way. He's sort of like the third or fourth guy I think you tend to talk about when you talk about this defense when. Because there's Caleb, there's arvel, there's Katie McDonald, and then there's Sonny. And I would say that, like, if you want to talk about whatever raw, physical talent, or maybe he's not number one, although he's 6, 4, 2, 40, and runs like a year. Like, his. His impact on the game, I think, is just as high as those other. Other three guys.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Wonder Sonny Styles will be the linebackers coach at Ohio State in 15 years.

[Doug LaMarice]

I think he'd be good at it. Sonny can coach the linebackers and Lorenzo can coach the dbs.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug LaMarice]

Co coordinator, style brothers.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And he's the block o. He's like, the representative of what it means to be a Buckeye. He's about. Can you put this in the living budget? The most Buckeye ish Buckeyes and. And like, whatever you want that to mean. But the. A guy who encapsulates, like, what it is. Like, what. What it is to be this. And I think, for instance, Jack Sawyer is a guy that people would put on a list like that. Right. The guy who organized the rec recruiting class in the COVID year And you'll only have to be a kid down the street. But Sunny Styles and both the Jack Story are both kids down the street who wind up coming to Ohio State as five star recruits and then leaving a tremendous legacy at Ohio State, both as national champions. You can come in from the outside and be a Buckeye. Ish. Buckeye too. Probably have a little edge if you're an Ohio kid. But like what else? Right? Like what, what, Your dad, your brother or Buckeyes. And then you are the, you wear the blocko and you are rock solid but also like a tremendous talent and h. Have. Have the highest of high floors and a tremendously high ceiling as well. Okay.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, he's good.

[Bill Landis]

So who, so who's the other guy? What's the other guy's name again? The other linebacker. I can't believe you've washed my brain out of like Sunny. They have this Sunny Styles guy and then. Oh, that's right. They have this other guy who might be the first pick in the draft also. They have that guy.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah. Arvell Reese is also excellent. Like I, it's. We. We talked about this, right? We want to, we want to kind of pick Matt Patricia's brain a little bit on, on kind of their plan for Arvel. Even as we were like talking about Sunny, I was looking at some of the, the snap distributions and alignments. So like, arvel has played 299 snaps on the defensive line. But true, like pass rushes against a true pass set. He only has 49. Like a lot of those defensive line snaps I think are either against the run or snaps where he's on the line and then drops out of the coverage. Yeah, he has more. He has 225 coverage snaps and 112 pass rush snaps. So it's like double, double the amount of coverage snaps. But I think the coverage snaps include the spying.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, right. I think that's right too. That floating in the middle.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug LaMarice]

And he might be the most effective spy in the country, but it also feels like sometimes he's, while he's impacting plays, he's maybe not having the, the most impact he can have just because of what he's being asked to do. And I just think that's a fascinating balance. Like I, I think I maybe I tried to ask Matt Patricia about the last time we talked to him because I was going into the Washington game where clearly Arvel was going to be spying Damon Williams Jr. A lot. I can't remember what Matt Patricia said, but I think it's Worth like a refresh just on like how when a guy has that skill set and he's like simultaneously your best spy and your best pass rusher, how do you decide what to do with him on a snap to snap basis is I think like a fascinating balance.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And it's just the first six games of the season, it was. Arvel Reese had taken college football by storm, literally. I mean, I think he was one of the main conversation topics in the sport. And then I feel like, like the defense, the strategy of the defense is sort of using his reputation of creating havoc in the offense's minds without actually having to create. Create havoc with the defensive call. Right. And that they are. And as you talked about, maybe like they're sliding protections to him and that kind of thing, but I think a lot of times it feels like they might be sliding a protection or planning something and then he drops out and it has an impact. But also, Arvell Reese is not trying to beat a tackle on third and eight to create pressure or get a sack. Instead he is maybe trying to make sure that quarterback doesn't scramble. And is that really the best usage? And. And I guess maybe the answer is like, you mean for the best defense in the country? First good as we've ever seen is like you're questioning the strategy, like, what are you questioning? And it's like, no, it, it works, but I guess it's like, is it the answer that it works? It's clearly working, but is it possible a little of something else could work even better?

[Doug LaMarice]

Well, I don't know if it works even better. Like, like, well, work better for Arvell Reese as an individual, maybe work better for the defense as a whole. Perhaps not. And I think that's like, that's the other balance. Right. Like there's a, there's an element of like sacrificing something, I think on an individual basis for our velvet, it probably does make the defense better just kind of across the board. But even if you, if you just look at his game by game, like season high for pass rush snaps was 13 against Texas. The only other games he was double digits were Minnesota, which was a route, and Illinois, where it felt like they kind of had to turn them on to like, to like kind of like flip the game back into their favor a little bit. And they did, but otherwise they've not really turned him back on in that way. And he had six pass rush snaps against Indiana on 59 total snaps played. The season high for pressures in the game is five against Texas now he has 25 on the year, which is. Where is it tied for ninth among linebackers. Like, it's good. He's an excellent pass rusher, but I think there is a, There is an element of, like, his mere presence makes a difference. So maybe you don't have to push it until you really feel like you need to. And otherwise you. There, There is a benefit of him just like merely having that reputation and being on the field.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, it's like he broke Arch Manning and then Matt Patricia has just the rest of the year been like, he might break your quarterback too. Watch out. Yeah, he might break him. I don't know. Is he gonna. Nope, he's not, but he could. Yeah, I'm very. I think I might ask Matt Patricia why he didn't use Arvell Reese more as a pass rusher at the national championship celebration. I think I might pull him off.

[Doug LaMarice]

Right, Matt? Matt, congratulations on winning a national title. Any regrets that Arvell only had 11 sacks this year and not 19?

[Bill Landis]

I mean, what were you thinking, man? My God, this defense gave up 26 points in the playoff run when they could have given up 19. What is happening here? Are you even trying? So, yeah, but like that, that, that is where we are. That it. But, but I guess the thing is this, the thing that is like, the why is even worth talking about is I wonder if there could be some situations in the playoff where it's third and seven, Orville Reese's spying, and then the opposing quarterback feels like he has decent time and completes a 23 yard pass that sets up a critical fourth quarter field goal. And you think to yourself, man, maybe if they would have rushed Arval Reese on that play, would have gotten to the quarterback. I wonder why they didn't do it. Like, I, I do, I do. That's why I think it's even worth talking about, because I, I think that may be on the table for as good as Kaden Curry and Kenjada Jackson and Kate McDonald can, can get pressure himself too. I, I do feel like that could happen.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, it could. I mean, it's hard to be exactly right on every play, right. As your coordinator, because I, I think I, I guess they could be in the world where it's just like Arvell's letting her rip on every play, but. And like, maybe you would have more negative plays if you did that, but are you also giving up more explosive plays if you do that too?

[Bill Landis]

Right?

[Doug LaMarice]

I don't. I don't know. And then if the answer is yes. You are giving up more explosive plays and I would imagine Matt Patricia doesn't want to do that. So you sacrifice some of, some of the havoc.

[Bill Landis]

Right.

[Doug LaMarice]

Like Ohio State's havoc rate for as good as the defense is is not particularly high. But I think it's purposeful that it's. That it's not.

[Bill Landis]

Yes. Right. Which is, which is the hard thing to wrap your head around because it feels like it is this mature, selfless defense that you sometimes wish maybe would be like slightly less mature and a little more selfish and just let their dudes let it rip.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah. Yeah.

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[Bill Landis]

And I do feel like we're gonna, we're gonna get Matt, Patricia and I. I feel like to get to the nut of this is like a seven question interrogation and not interrogation with A light bulb, like with a flashlight in his face, but more like a. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I just, I, I want to get more explanation from you. Right. Because I feel like it's hard, it's going to be hard to get the answer to this in one question. And I wish you and I could like sit down with Matt Patricia for 20 minutes and just like talk out the thought process of this, of just like this particular thing using Arvel. The mini documentary of the Ohio State football season.

[Doug LaMarice]

Can that be a book? I think you can, you can rip off like an eight chapter book about R.V. reese.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I talked to Map Church for 45 minutes. I wrote an ape chapter book about using R.L. reese, I think. But like, wouldn't you want to do that? I would really want to do that.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I don't like we're going to get Patricia next week like at the podium. So even then, like that's just not, that's not a fire off seven questions in a row thing. But maybe Media day.

[Bill Landis]

Oh yeah, okay.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, yeah, okay.

[Bill Landis]

Okay. Yeah. It's like, oh, do you want to talk to 19 different players on the team or do you want to have a 45 minute conversation with Matt Patricia about RVL Reese's like, Man, I want to do both. But maybe the second one.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, I think maybe the second one.

[Bill Landis]

Maybe the second one. Peyton Pierce is a third linebacker. How's it going?

[Doug LaMarice]

I think he's been pretty solid. I, I, you know, did not probably have a great game. He only played six naps, but there were a couple of like misfits against Indiana. His PFF grades are going kind of in the wrong direction on the back half of the season a little bit, which I guess is, is not what you'd like to see, but I think he's been pretty good and is sort of like unquestionably the next guy up in the room. Like Arvel and Sunny are off to the NFL and I think this one of the safest bets you can make on new starters next year is Payton Pierce is going to be the starting Mike linebacker.

[Bill Landis]

And then do you think Riley Pettajohn is his running mate?

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's like, it's, I think maybe TJ Alford mixes in there and maybe, maybe more of a rotational way than, than Peyton Pierce is right now. And then I don't know what it looks like beyond that. Like it's, it's a really young room. A lot of first and second year guys in that room. Next year. So I don't know. Again, like, I, I think they brought those guys in for a reason. They want to develop them, they want to hand the defense over to them. So I don't know that they're going to like recruit a transfer over them, but it's going to be a pretty stark change, I think, just, just experience wise from what they have now to what they have, what they will have next year. It may be like sincere Johnson as a true freshman could be in there too. Maybe. I think linebacker is a hard position to play as a true freshman, but he's pretty athletic, so maybe he can get in the mix too. But yeah, Pierce Pettajan, Alfred Johnson will probably be my guess on the four guys who are going to be pushing to get on the field the most next year.

[Bill Landis]

Pierce is the sunny Petta John as the Arvel for. Right.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah. If you wanted to draw those lines. Yeah, I think that's what I would say.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And I, I don't mean, I mean, we did this on the receiver podcast. Like, I just don't know if it's going to get better than Jeremiah Smith. This is, it's like a perfect linebacker pairing. Yes.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, it's the, like I said, it's the news. It's the, it'll be, it'll be the thing. We compare every room, like, subsequent to this one, too.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug LaMarice]

Which is not a bad. Again, it's not a bad thing. Like what, what an achievement to have Sonny Styles and Arvell Reese and James Laurinaitis, like, get together and set a new standard for Ohio State linebackers.

[Bill Landis]

It is, it's like one of those where. So one time my friends and I were going to go to Atlantic City and the alternator in my car blew or whatever an alternator does. And so my car, my car broke down. Yeah. And we had to get the car towed back. And we couldn't, we couldn't go to Atlantic City, but we had, like, prepared. We had like been saving our summer paychecks, like, to go to Atlantic City. So we were like, I was like, I'm ready to spend a hundred dollars at the casino. Right. Like, I'm saving up. And then we couldn't go. And so then we went to like a mini golf go kart track instead, but we went to the mini cart mini golf go kart track with a hundred dollars in our pocket. And back then in the 90s, if you had a hundred bucks at a mini golf go kart track, like, you could let it rip. Right. So that night that, that mini golf go kart track, it's like the greatest night I ever had. It's like me and my guys were mini golfing, we're go karting. We got money in our pocket because, like, and so I would not want to go back and be like, well, I don't want to experience that go kart mini golf night because it was too spectacular. Right. And it set a bar. And it's like every night after that, it's like, man, this is no mini golf go kart. 100 bucks in my pocket night. But you still had that moment. It was wonderful. And that's what Rvel Reese and Sunny Styles are. Mini golf go karts. Go karts with a hundred bucks in your pocket. It's like, what's better than that? But then you can in the future be sad that it happened. You just, you have to be grateful that you had that night. Right.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah. I think there's something also like, kind of beautiful about experiencing that and then chasing that feeling again for the rest of your life.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Chase it. Yes.

[Doug LaMarice]

And you may remember night, you probably would never quite reach it, but you'll have some fun trying to. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And also just to be clear in this metaphor, Bill Davis is the broken alternator. So I just. Oh, we kid, we kid, we kid. All right, let's give some grades for the linebacker room. What do you think the subscribers said?

[Doug LaMarice]

96, 95.

[Bill Landis]

Good call.

[Doug LaMarice]

That's where I'm at too. I'm at 95.

[Bill Landis]

I'm at a 97. And, and I guess because it's mostly the two guys, the third guy working in, I think does his job most of the time. I think like the little flashes of Riley Pettigohn have given you a good view of the future. You know, if you, if you really had to get down to like, oh, we got like, but they haven't. Right. Arvell and Sunny are basically been prepared to play every snap the whole year when called upon. And it's just, I, it's, I don't know what else you want. I, I, I, I, I don't.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Landis]

I don't know what else you. Unless it's like, oh, remember when they had Gary on Conley and Marshawn Lattimore and they were first round picks at. The third guy was Denzel Ward and the so if Peyton Pierce. Yeah. Award. It's like, oh, well, Peyton Pierce. What's the deal with paint? So you think both Sunny and arvel are top 15 picks. What's the deal with Peyton Pierce, like, oh, he's. He's a top 15 pick, too. It's like, what. How is that possible? So, like, maybe that's what keeps it from being 100, because Peyton Pierce instead is just good and solid and so. But Sonny and Arvel as a combo, and it's not even. It's like one of those things. It's not like Batman and Robin. It's Batman and Batman. It's Batman and Superman. Right? Whatever it is. I don't know. It's Green Lantern and Aquaman. It's. It's Wolverine and Captain America. I don't know what it is. It's like both. It's. It's. It's Deadpool and Wolverine. Did you watch the Deadpool and Wolverine movie?

[Doug LaMarice]

I did not.

[Bill Landis]

That came out. Yeah. I don't really watch those movies, but it's pretty good. So, like, that's great. Wonderful. That's a 96 average. Okay. It's pretty good for a linebacker room.

[Doug LaMarice]

That's probably going to be the best one.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. That'll do it for a linebacker breakdown. We've got a couple more coming. We appreciate you guys being part of it. Make sure you're subscribed so you can catch up on all this stuff. And guess what? There's going to be playoff games here. So, like, that's.

[Doug LaMarice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

For like, Ohio State's gonna play in them and other teams are playing in them and it's super exciting college football. How about it? For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug lamarice. And that was the Bill and Doug Show. The college football playoff is everything. Toughness, rolls, sacrifices, life to focus. This is where I everything you got all damn day.

[Doug LaMarice]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[Bill Landis]

Keep physical, keep fighting. We are. Tulane takes on Ole Miss, followed by James Madison in Oregon. It's time to bring it first round.

[Doug LaMarice]

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[Bill Landis]

By allstate today at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO.

[Doug LaMarice]

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[Doug LaMarice]

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