Ohio State-Michigan Around the Shoe: Most important Buckeyes, vivid memories, loving the rivalry

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State-Michigan Around the Shoe

Episode Date: November 24, 2025
Guests: Steve Hellwagen (Bucknuts.com), Tony Gerdeman (BuckeyeHuddle.com)
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises, Bill Landis
Main Theme:
A comprehensive, lively discussion leading into the 2025 Ohio State–Michigan game. The panel examines the Buckeyes’ most important offensive and defensive players, delves into the essence of the rivalry, and relives vivid OSU-Michigan memories, all with an eye for detail, humor, and deep respect for the tradition.

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Episode Overview

The hosts and guests dive into five major topics related to Ohio State’s matchup with Michigan—key players who could swing the outcome, the mental/emotional vs. tactical side of “The Game,” the rivalry’s best qualities, and their deepest personal memories tied to the contest. Rich with stats, storytelling, and banter, it’s both prep for fans and a celebration of what makes this rivalry unique.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Most Important Ohio State Offensive Player in The Game

(Starts at 04:10)

• Steve Hellwagen’s Pick:
  • Max Claire (tight end). “That is the Max Claire we were promised last January… running through space and time through the Rutgers secondary, I mean that’s what we paid for, that we wanted to see.” (05:24)
  • Also shouts out Bo Jackson (running back), who’s “been this close to breaking the big one… If he can hit a big one like that in the Michigan game, that would change the tenor of the game certainly.” (06:22)
• Tony Gerdeman’s Pick:
  • Julian Sayin (quarterback).
    • Emphasizes that hitting open receivers is key and the offense will succeed “if Julian Sayin is hitting his receivers, then I think this is a win… Just do what you’ve been doing.” (07:16)
• Bill Landis’s Pick:
  • Carson Hinsman (center). “He’s got to play better than he’s played in the last two games against Michigan, because the last thing that Ohio State needs is Julian Sayin with guys running in his face all game.” (15:07)
• Supporting Stats:
  • Michigan has struggled defending tight ends: “Four [opposing] tight ends set season highs in catches, three set season highs in yards, and three in touchdowns against Michigan.” – Tony Gerdeman (14:22)
• General O-line concern:
  • Tegra Tshabola (right guard) and offensive line depth are under the microscope; the group agrees shoring up protection and adjusting to any mismatches will be vital. (17:05-19:43)

2. Most Important Ohio State Defensive Player

(Starts at 19:43)

• Tony Gerdeman’s Pick:
  • Caden Curry (edge). “Could be their best pass rusher and also one of the best run defenders… He can cover the flats when he sees a pass going out there, he can read screens, he can do so many different things.” (20:05)
• Bill Landis’s Pick:
  • Sonny Styles (linebacker). “He needs to be the guy that sort of keeps a four yard run to a four yard run… There is one linebacker in all of FBS that has played 400 snaps and not missed a tackle and it's Sonny Styles.” (21:38)
• Doug Lesmerises’s Pick:
  • Davison Igbinosun (cornerback). “This man is ready to play at a high level and celebrate at a high level… lockdown Andrew Marsh and then start a brawl, this guy is ready for the history books.” (23:13)
• Steve Hellwagen’s Pick:
  • Collectively points to Edric Houston, Tywone Malone, and Caden McDonald at defensive tackle: “Everything Ohio State's done defensively has begun with Caden McDonald crashing and getting a hand on the runner at the line of scrimmage and holding them up.” (25:00)
• On Potential Flag Planting and Emotions:
  • Speculation that Igbinosun would be the Buckeye most likely to plant a flag at Michigan Stadium if they win: “If there is an attempted flag planting, who is the most likely flag planter and why is it Davison Igbinosun?” (23:13)
  • “[Ryan] Day might do it. What do you mean?” – Bill Landis (28:51)
  • Running joke about needing a pot of dirt to make flag planting possible on turf. (29:00–29:37)

3. How Much of This Game Is Mental/Emotional vs. Football/Scheme?

(Starts at 30:25)

• Bill Landis:
  • “I think I might go like 70% [football and scheme], 30 [mental/emotional]. … What’s Matt Patricia gonna have in his bag for Bryce Underwood and this offense?” (30:25)
• Doug Lesmerises:
  • Close split, “60% football, talent, scheme; 40% mental, emotional. … does the mental/emotional prevent you from activating the scheme?” (33:01)
• Steve Hellwagen:
  • “80/20 football and scheme and talent… You can’t let emotions [control] you, you have to focus and really only concern yourself with what your job is and executing.” (33:48)
• Tony Gerdeman:
  • “Kind of like the crazy/hot matrix. At the start it’s all talent, as the game goes on and it’s closer, the craziness rises.”
  • Sees “75/25 talent,” but the emotional aspect ramps up in clutch moments. (35:05)

4. Best Thing About the OSU-Michigan Rivalry

(Starts at 36:46)

• Doug Lesmerises:
  • “It just is such an easy, natural way to connect yourself to your own history… it gives us a reason to talk about Troy Smith… It allows you to connect to your past through this game.” (36:46-38:38)
• Steve Hellwagen:
  • “For an Ohio State player, you’re not an Ohio State legend unless you did something important in the game… you had guys who had great careers at Ohio State, but couldn’t beat Michigan, so they’re not regarded at the same level as some of the legends who did pull it off.” (39:42)
  • Ohio vs. Michigan: “It’s Ohio, the garden spot of the world, against this dark, dire, cold, dank place that they call Michigan.” (38:38)
• Tony Gerdeman:
  • “You look forward to it all year long… and then you live with the results and it’s either basking for a year, or you’re in constant pain for a year about it… it’s once a year and yet it’s also year-round. And there’s not a lot of things like that.” (41:37)
• Bill Landis:
  • “The feeling walking into the stadium—there’s nothing like it… the whole place, like, dripping with anxiety and rage… I got to cover two national championships and big bowl games, none of them come close to feeling like this.” (43:12)

5. Most Vivid Ohio State-Michigan Memories

(Starts at 44:39)

• Steve Hellwagen:
  • 1986 Game: Harbaugh’s guarantee, field goal miss, fog, “surreal situation.” (44:54)
  • 2002 “Will Allen interception”: “Within 20 seconds, the field is full of people… the most unbridled, just deliriousness.” (48:13)
  • 1995 Biakabutuka Game: “One of the best teams Ohio State had, Eddie George wins the Heisman… lose in Ann Arbor. Lloyd Carr becomes permanent head coach on the spot for winning that game.” (48:47)
• Tony Gerdeman:
  • 1995 Loss as Student: “Tim Biakabutuka scored all of his touchdowns in the same endzone I was sitting in… 313 yards, that’s an indelible [memory].” (51:12)
  • 2016 double-overtime: “Watching Urban the entire time… being in the corner where Curtis Samuel scored and where J.T. Barrett clearly picks up the first down, no controversy there…” (52:46)
  • 2017 Postgame “Injured QB”: Urban Meyer blaming a cameraman—humorously fearing it was a colleague. Emphasizes the level of anxiety and chaos surrounding the rivalry. (52:47)
• Bill Landis:
  • 2019 Fields Out of Tent: “Justin Fields coming out of the medical tent and throwing that touchdown to G. Wilson… just hero ball stuff.” (52:55)
  • 2016 Press Box Tension: “I was in the press box with one ‘they won’ story and one ‘they lost’ story… maybe the most anxious I’ve been trying to figure out what to publish.” (52:55)
• Doug Lesmerises:
  • 2005 Anthony Gonzalez catch: “I have a terrible memory but I can see Anthony Gonzalez in my head… helicopter catch, thought that was a Heisman winner to a congressman.” (55:17)
  • 2007 OSU to Rose Bowl, then chaos: “They were all climbing into the stands with roses in their mouths because they thought they locked up a Rose Bowl, then blew up into LSU.” (56:27)
• Other vivid details:
  • Ann Arbor stories: Cop giving out roses after a Michigan win; “nine and ten year old brother and sister flipping us off…” (60:22–61:02)
  • “Survived the 1990s”: Joking that the 1990s make recent OSU struggles feel like “part time.” (61:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “That Max Claire we saw against Rutgers, that is the Max player we were promised last January.” — Steve Hellwagen (05:24)
• “If Julian Sayin is hitting his receivers, then I think this is a win… just do what you’ve been doing.” — Tony Gerdeman (07:16)
• “There is one linebacker in all of FBS that has played 400 snaps and not missed a tackle and it’s Sonny Styles.” — Bill Landis (21:38)
• “It’s Ohio, the garden spot of the world, against this dark, dire, cold, dank place that they call Michigan.” — Steve Hellwagen (38:38)
• “For an Ohio State player, you’re not a legend unless you did something important in the game.” — Steve Hellwagen (39:42)
• “It’s once a year and yet it’s also year-round. There’s not a lot of things like that.” — Tony Gerdeman (42:42)
• “The whole place, like, dripping with anxiety and rage.” — Bill Landis (43:12)
• “The entirety of the world is hinging on this next play. Just amp that up for two versus three in Michigan versus Ohio State.” — Steve Hellwagen (54:01)
• [On the overwrought nature of the rivalry] “Just try losing one and see what the reaction is like… the tension of these overtimes… your heart is just pounding out of your chest…” — Steve Hellwagen (54:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Guest Introductions & Rivalry Experience – 01:05–04:10
• Offensive Impact Players – 04:10–19:43
• Defensive Impact Players – 19:43–30:25
• Mental/Emotional vs Football/Scheme – 30:25–36:46
• Best Thing About the Rivalry – 36:46–44:39
• Most Vivid Rivalry Memories – 44:39–end

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Tone and Language

A mix of passionate expertise, knowledgeable analysis, nostalgia, and playful rivalry banter. The conversation is warm, rich in personal anecdote, and often self-deprecating, throwing in jokes about bad kids from Toledo, planting flags, and enduring heartbreak in Ann Arbor.

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen (or read) for Ohio State fans—or anyone wanting to understand the heart of college football’s best rivalry. It expertly weaves Xs and Os with history, emotion, and humor, offering deep insight for the Buckeyes' biggest week.

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Transcript

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[Doug Lamorisse]

Welcome back to around the Shoe on the Bill and Doug Show. Doug lamarinese and Bill Landis joined by two fantastic guests from our robust Ohio State football beat Steve Hellwagen of Bucknuts.com Tony Gerdeman of BuckeyeHuddle.com Steve Steve Hellwagon, thank you for being here, brother. How long have you been around the Ohio State Michigan game?

[Steve Hellwagen]

Well, I arrived here on campus and I'm doing this from the lovely Panera here on Lane Avenue in the fall of fall of 1986 and I've never left. They've never gotten rid of me yet. I think this will be like the 36th or 37th time I've seen the game in person. So I have spent like five and a half days of my life, 57 years here on Earth. A total of about five and a half days have been spent in a stadium watching the Ohio State Michigan game live and in person. So way too long. And probably my wife would tell you many more to come because I'm not allowed to retire just yet. So.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Oh my gosh, I would read that book My Week in the Game. The Life of Steel. Steve Hellwagon how about that.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah, there's seen a couple campaigns, that's for sure and, and more crazy endings and more. Yeah, just stuff. You, you only. The stuff only surrounds one game a year and this is it. This is this week. So it's crazy.

[Doug Lamorisse]

I love it. Steve Hellwagen thank you for being here. Tony Gman, you are the first repeat Guest on Around the Shoe, when I asked you to come on, I said, is it an honor or a bother? And you said, what?

[Tony Gerdeman]

A little bit of both. So thanks for having me.

[Doug Lamorisse]

How long have you been around the game, Gerd?

[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, I grew up in northwest Ohio, so probably since the day I was born when, you know, you, you live up near the, the border and you got Toledo. When I grew up was as much Michigan as it was Ohio State. And, you know, I grew up south of Toledo. So basically, if you wanted to be a bad kid, you were a Michigan fan. And, you know, there are a lot of bad kids where I'm from. And so you grew up with it. And then, you know, I, I went to Ohio State, got there in 94 and was there for five games against Michigan. I went 2 and 3, which was good for, for a while. That was, you know, those are bragging rights. Then, of course, I've been covering, covering the game. I've been writing Michigan Monday. Now, this is the 20th year I've been writing Michigan Monday, which is you game recap of what the Wolverines did, how it applies to their upcoming matchup against Ohio State.

[Narrator/Commercial Voice]

So.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Been a while. Yep.

[Doug Lamorisse]

And I bet every time you sit down to write Michigan Monday, Gerd, you think to yourself, you're letting the bad kid out just a little bit on a Monday. Right. Or, or maybe you're sticking it to the bad kids. I could. Those Toledo memories come flooding back.

[Tony Gerdeman]

I'm sure you know what, they're, they're never far away. But you try to push him back. It's like, no, no, we can just, we can just operate as normal here. But yeah.

[Narrator/Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Tony Gerdeman]

So many, many bad kids. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamorisse]

All right. Gert will take care of you. Thanks to you guys again for being here. We're going to do five topics on Ohio State football all around the game. We'll, you know, we'll chat about different things and at the end get to some of our most vivid memories from Ohio State, Michigan. Steve Held Wagon. We'll start with you. First question, who is an offensive player for Ohio State who could swing this game on Saturday? Who could have a big influence on it? We obviously know that we are all, all awaiting whether Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate will play. So you can go there, you can go somewhere else. Steve, who's your offensive player for the Buckeyes?

[Steve Hellwagen]

Well, you got to hope if you're an Ohio State fan that one or both of those guys is healthy and able to go. If they're not, then it's Going to be, as we saw this past week against Rutgers by committee, going to take a village approach. I mean, they spread the football around to a lot of different people. They've got four running backs right now who all seem to be in the flow and have played some best football lately, even though C.J. donaldson's been banged up and they seem like they're saving him. And the number of tough short yardage plays he's going to have to convert will probably exponentially increase this week against the University of Michigan, as we've seen in years past. But I think the guy that I would go with is Max Claire. The Max Claire that we saw here this past Saturday against Rutgers, that, that is the Max player that we were promised last January when he signed on with the Buckeyes, you know, 39 yard catch and run. I mean running through space and time through the Rutgers secondary, I mean that's what we paid for, that we wanted to see was Max Claire having that kind of an impact. And up until now it's just been little drips and drabs here and there. So I think he's a mismatch and a guy that really doesn't have a lot of plays on tape with Ohio State for to where Michigan's going to prepare too much for him. But certainly if Smith and Tate can't go, he's got to be a guy. And the other guy I think of is Bo Jackson. He's been this close and I mean just this close to breaking the big one here. A couple times Rutgers got him on a shoestring. He was deep in the secondary, like a 15 or 16 yard run and if he beats that guy, it's 50, 60, off to the races. So boy, oh boy, if he can hit a big one like that in the Michigan game, you know, that would change, change the tenor of the game certainly. But if you put me to one, I would say Max Claire with the proviso that you're hoping that Smith and. Or Tate. Yeah, one of them at least can have a 6 for 100 kind of game.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah, I'm just curious. Just so weird, Gerd of like this continuing to hang over the team. Every analysis is like, well if this, if one plays, if two plays, if neither play. But who's your guy for offense?

[Bill Landis]

Gerd?

[Tony Gerdeman]

You know, I, I did write down Bo Jackson, but I also wrote down, and this is maybe a cheap answer, but Julian's saying, because I've watched, just watching the Maryland Michigan game, watching Malik Washington, quarterback for Maryland, missing open receivers and Missing several of them. If Julian sand is hitting his receivers, then I think this is a, a win for me, for Ohio State. So it's sort of that thing where just do what you've been doing. Although the last two weeks they haven't been able to do it. Two, two weeks in a row Julian Sands under 200 yards. He's never even been under 300 yards two weeks in a row. And so without both of those guys, you've seen what's happened. But you know, Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate haven't been playing for all of these other teams that are able to break open against Michigan. And if the quarterbacks would just hit their throws, then you'd see more big plays against Michigan because they're there to be made. And so I think it's. Is it the, the free space on the board to say Julian saying connecting downfield with the plays that are made available? Yeah, to me that's the big thing. Just as Ryan Day says, do the routine things routinely make the plays that Michigan is giving you and take advantage of what few breaks you can get.

[Doug Lamorisse]

So can I just, just. I don't know what to think about this. I was re watching things again last night from last year and we all know Will Howard took that hit right in the game. But the, the, the interception that he threw early on the sideline that was returned to the four yard line or whatever it was and set up Michigan's only touchdown. And then if you just go back and remind yourself of what Will Howard was going into the Michigan game, he became a Buckeye legend and a playoff monster. Same run. I think that's what people have in their head of Will Howard. That's, that's not really what he was at the time of the Michigan game. And that interception is such a bad interception. And it gave Michigan their only touchdown. And Gerd, like, I just, you know, don't want to jinx anything. I have a hard time seeing Julian saying, throwing that pick. You know what I mean? And I think when you're talking about the routine, like doing something out of the routine. Last year gave Michigan seven points in a game where they scored 13 and 1.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, and we saw Will Howard kind of throw another bad pass against Penn State earlier in the season.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah.

[Tony Gerdeman]

When you look at what Julian saying, his interceptions, two of them have been just being really greedy against overmatched opponents in the end zone. 1, Grambling State 1. Whichever one where he threw back across, I knew he shouldn't have done it. And then Ohio one gets tipped at the line and another one against Ohio where he's basically getting hit as he's throwing the ball goes up. Probably should have been a fumble instead. So there's not been really this like, what are you doing? There's probably the what are you doing? Throws from Julian sand can be counted on three fingers this year. I think where it's, you know, the accuracy is one thing, but the decision making is another one. Where you. We see it from Will Howard a couple times a game. Like, you know, what is this from Comicord, of course. But we haven't really seen it from Julian saying and for it to start now. I mean this is the biggest game he's played in since Texas. But he was the more composed quarterback against Texas. So what are we going to see on Saturday?

[Steve Hellwagen]

Let me throw in real quick. Yeah, Stevie, what saying is doing is just, you know, unprecedented, uncanny. I mean 79 lead the nation in completion percentage and then also in efficiency. And he is thrown to exactly one interception. Correct. In eight Big Ten games. Is that what I'm being told? One interception in eight Big Ten games. I want to know how many quarterbacks in the history of the Big Ten conference have started every one of their teams conference games, whether it was eight games or nine games throughout a season and come through it with one interception. It's got to be a record of some sort for guys who have started the entire conference season for their team to come through that season with just one interception in conference play. I mean that, that's. I, I don't know who else could possibly have done that. I, I don't know. That's just incredible.

[Tony Gerdeman]

I can give you two quick names. Oh, J.J. mcCarthy and Drew Aller in 2023. They did it, but they didn't throw.

[Steve Hellwagen]

They did it with zero.

[Tony Gerdeman]

No. They both won.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Okay. Okay.

[Doug Lamorisse]

So, so GERD on record, Julian saying the next JJ McCarthy. What hyphrays from GERD talking about Minnesota.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Minnesota is going to need a quarterback pretty soon.

[Doug Lamorisse]

But Bill, like is it is like is it sacrilegious to be like actually going into the Michigan game last year like Will Howard was good, but I don't think he's where Julian saying is now. And they did come out throwing little bit last year and he, he kind of forced a throw to a Mecca Bukan third down on the first drive that led to a field goal. He threw the pick on the second drive. The third drive ended on like kind of a weird third down throw to Carnell Tate that was incomplete. That led to a miss Field goal. And for all the like, why didn't they throw to the playmakers? More like Will Howard kind of tried too early and wasn't that great at it. And I actually think Julian saying in this situation, the way he's played this year, it's reasonable to expect that he would just be a little bit better at that.

[Bill Landis]

He's significantly more accurate than Will Howard, like there. And again, this. This is turning into the. Let's trash Will Howard. I know it wasn't. It wasn't his. It got knocked out like he should have been playing versus.

[Doug Lamorisse]

But this was the three drives before he got.

[Bill Landis]

He threw the nearest.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Before he got knocked out four.

[Bill Landis]

And then he threw another pick later in the game after he got knocked out.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

But no, throughout last season, his accuracy, like, kind of like came and went. Like, there were many plays throughout the year where the ball just, like, kind of came out of his hand weird and like, went sideways and just like, what. What is that? Exactly. And then to your point, he figured it all out in the playoff and he's a legend and he was great. But no, Ohio State, I guess probably 23 and 24 did not get the level of quarterback play that it needs to win this game. And, you know, I. I have confidence like I think the rest of you guys do that, that it probably will this time around, frankly, even if Jeremiah Smith and Cardinal Tate don't play. Because the one thing in the song going conversation that I thought was at least a good sign against Rutgers was that Julian saying looked a little more comfortable, wasn't explosive, had the opportunity to throw that one deep to Brandon Innocent. He didn't throw, but was more accurate in that game and just seemed like a little less kind of sped up against Rutgers than he did against ucla. So it did seem like he was building some comfort in a world where maybe he doesn't have Jeremiah and Carnell, even though everyone's hoping that he does.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Okay, well, Howard, great job, by the way. Yeah, just let me be the first to say, Will Howard, hey, man, great job. I really think the fans liked it. Bill, you got a player.

[Bill Landis]

I do have a player, but I want it before Ger. Do you have your tight Michigan tight end handy about what tight ends have done against them this year? Because I thought Max player was a good call by Steve. I did look up Michigan this year has allowed the third most reset receiving yards to a tight end in the power four. But then Gerd has had another stat for Michigan.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Wow.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, yeah, I went through and looked at all of the, the starting tight ends that has played, that have played Michigan and so four of them set season highs and catches against Michigan, three of them set season high and yards against Michigan and three of them set season high and touchdowns against Michigan. And they opened up the season against New Mexico. That dude went 10 catches, 71 yards, two touchdowns. Oklahoma's went 5 for 69, Nebraska 7 for 60. USC had their two. Their two starting tight ends went 4 for 83 combined. And then you even had Northwestern a couple weeks ago go 4 for 81. Maryland's tight end would have gone. He only went 3 for 19 for 1. But he also dropped some passes. So yeah, there's an avenue there.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Yeah. So that Max Claire was, was front of mind for me for sure. But for this sake of naming another player, I'll go on the O line. I'll go, I'll go. Carson Hinsman, who I think has not played all that well in two starts against Michigan, 2023 and 2024. But he's also the only guy really up front who has any kind of extensive experience playing in the big house. Phil Daniels played like special team snaps there last year for Minnesota. Tegar Shabola and Luke Montgomery played a couple of special team snaps in 2023 in that game. But you know, going, going through the entire sort of offensive slate on the O line. Carson's the only one who's done that. We all know how important the center is to, to making those calls and getting things id. And we know, you know, Michigan's probably going to try to junk some things up on its front. So there's sort of the, there's the command of the center that I'm interested in and just sort of giving everyone on the same page. But I also think he's got to play better than he's played in the last two games against Michigan because the last thing that Ohio State needs is Julian saying with guys running in his face all game.

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[Doug Lamorisse]

That makes sense. And he was talking a little bit about that after the game. Like that he's, he's been, after the Rutgers game that he's been through this a little bit. I'll, I'll go Tiger Shibola. Like, do we think it's possible that right guard blows up the Ohio State offense in the game, Steve? Like, is that, is that still where we are? They're like, I don't know if this, if he's turned around chasing guys who are running towards the quarterback, this could be a problem. Or is it, is it going to be fine, Steve?

[Steve Hellwagen]

I thought they pulled him on merit against ucla. I think that Van Sickle got in there and did a bang up job, I thought. And then if you look at the touchdown run that Bo Jackson had, it was the, the wing back, the tight end and Shabola who kind of opened up the hole and the other tight end coming across hit the linebacker in the hole to free up Jackson to go for the touchdown. So to me, he played a little bit better I guess against Rutgers and you know, I guess we'll see what they go with. I can't imagine they want to jockey too many move guys in and out in that game. My goodness. It's just, it's, you know, this will be his third time playing against them, so I think you go with that.

[Doug Lamorisse]

It's just weird, Gert. I feel like we've talked about it all year. And then Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith got hurt. It's like, ah, right guard's fine. Who cares about that? I was like, well, the receivers aren't playing, but is it still, like, is it still a thing or, or not? Because we were, I know on our shows we've been waiting with baited breath for the return of Josh Padilla. And then he was in uniform, standing on the sideline without his helmet. Didn't come close to getting in the game against Rutgers. How can they play him much against Michigan? Is it going to be fine?

[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, I, I think as you look at the, the weak link of the offense, whatever, and the weak link in the defense, you're going to have to Attack. And I think that's what you'll see from Wick Martindale where you just, you just overpower that right guard spot and try to create some. Something and get into Julian Sands face. And one of my other keys for Michigan's defense is that defensive, the interior of the defensive line, if they're not getting to the quarterback, just get your hands up, tip some balls in the air and try to create some turnovers there. But yeah, I would not be surprised if they just keep running at Tegra just to see what can happen, because we've seen enough success from just one guy going at it there. So you know what happens when they throw in another. And then, then you mentioned Carson Hinsman. What happens if he starts feeling like he needs to help out there and then that kind of just starts creating a, you know, an effect where now everybody on the interior is worried about one particular position because it keeps getting beaten. And now I, I don't think if you put Gabe Van Sickle in there, are they going to now avoid it? No, I think they're going to go at it even harder.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah, no, that's true. Okay, well, we talk about it all year. Landis, question number two. Defensive player, Ohio State defensive player that you think could really swing the game.

[Bill Landis]

You're starting with me now with Gerd?

[Doug Lamorisse]

Oh, no, I guess. Well, I was. Gerd's really been on it. He's talked a lot. But we'll start with Gerd. It is actually his turn. Sorry, bad hosting by me. Gert defensive player.

[Tony Gerdeman]

I, I don't know. Should have started with Bill.

[Doug Lamorisse]

I don't know.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Interesting. Well, that's the thing. There are so many surprise questions.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Always get you, don't they?

[Tony Gerdeman]

Yeah. You should have given me some clips or some, some notes on this. But I. As you look like over all of this defense, you can. Any of these guys could be the guy for me. I'll go ahead and go with Kaden Curry, who, you know, could be their best pass rusher and also one of the best run defenders who can create turnovers, as we've seen, can bring the running back down on the backside. Like, if they're trying to run away from him, he can get there. For some reason. He's really good at like. And he can cover the flats when he, when he sees a pass going out there. He can read screens. He can do so many different things. So if, if I'm going first, I'm taking Kaden Curry because of all of the things that he can do. And you have Seen some defensive ends have some success against Michigan's tackles, both right tackle, left tackle. The Michigan offensive line, I think they finally for the first last four games have the same offensive line. They've been dealing with some injuries, they've got some young guys in there, but I like Kaden Curry in his last go around trying to get his gold pants and creating some, some problems for Michigan.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Young guy at left tackle right after the injury there. Is that right?

[Tony Gerdeman]

Yep.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Okay. Is Evan Link going to come back for this game though?

[Tony Gerdeman]

I, I thought he was out for the season, so I wasn't sure.

[Bill Landis]

Okay.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Okay. Yeah. All right.

[Bill Landis]

Could be.

[Doug Lamorisse]

All right, Bill. Now actually to you defensive guy, I'll go.

[Bill Landis]

I. My, my first one to edge, whether that's Kaden Curry, Kiana Jackson or Arvel Reese rushing, I'll go Sonny Styles, and this is thinking that he needs to be the guy that sort of keeps a four yard run to a four yard run. Right? Like, like if Jordan Marshall, who I expect to play, play against Ohio State, is back in there after not playing last week for Michigan, he's capable of doing some of the things we've seen from Justice Haynes this year, which is just like you find that crease, you make one guy miss and all of a sudden what should be merely an efficient run turns into an explosive run. And Sunny Styles has been overshadowed quite a bit by RFL Reese this year. I actually think if we're able to separate it and think of rvel Reese as more of sort of like an on ball, line of scrimmage defender and Sonny Styles is more of just like a traditional in the box linebacker. Sonny's probably been the best linebacker in the country this year. There is one linebacker in all of FBS that has played 400 snaps and not missed a tackle and is Sunny Styles. He's been ex. He's been excellent this year and we just don't talk about him and he's like very understated as a player. He needs to get Jordan Marshall on the ground in this game. It will be a collective effort. Tackling always is. But, but I think he needs to be the one who is spearheading that.

[Tony Gerdeman]

I like that we see it all, you know, last few years where it's that fourth quarter where Michigan finally breaks free with the running game and, and watching Michigan this year, whether it was Justin Justice Haynes or Jordan Marshall, it's so much of it is just the missed tackles or losing leverage and like there's. It shouldn't have gone 50 yards, but there was Nobody there. And, and for Sonny Styles to be that guy I think is key as well.

[Doug Lamorisse]

So I'm gonna go with Davison Igbosan who played an excellent game last week. And Michigan actually does have some receivers who can threaten you now, which is not always the case in this game. And trying to shut down Andrew Marsh can matter. But I know we've had this question on our sub stack and if people want to subscribe to our substack. By the way. Billandougosu.substack.com there's some people wondering if Ohio State wins, not to get ahead of anything, will Ohio State try to plant a flag? And if there is an attempted flag planting, who is the most likely flag planter and why is it Davis and Iggly nose and, and so this is. If it's like lock down Andrew Marsh and then start a brawl, this guy is ready for the history book because he picked one off last week, jumped in this and threw the ball stands and then penalty. So this man is ready to play at a high level and celebrate at a high level. And I think we could see Davis and Igbnosten get ready to be in the highlight clips for the game for the next 50 years, for the level of play and the level of post game. Is anybody with me on this?

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah, he'd be a good candidate, no doubt. And you know what's funny, that whole thing way back in the day with, what was it, Charles Woodson and David Boston, I think they're squared off. I mean think about that matchup that we were treated to in the 90s and like Woodson like takes his helmet off and by that point, if you take your helmet off on the field play, that's supposed to be 15 and they, they didn't do, they didn't penalize him for that. So yeah, the whole, any rate, you're.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Coming to me with 25 year old grievances.

[Steve Hellwagen]

We're checking in, we're ready this week, 20, 27 years. But I, I agree on that and I, I think that Matthew's coming off again with those two personal foul penalties going against these decent receivers or not personal foul, but pass interference. Troubling, I think. But my guys would be, I use guys. It's the collection of Edric Houston, Taiwan Malone and certainly Kaden McDonald at the two defensive tackle positions because you know, I don't look for Bryce Underwood to throw for 300 yards in this game. I think Michigan, you know, in, in recent years has outrushed Ohio State and I think They've got the guys with Marshall and I. I don't know how to pronounce this, cuz. Kudzu. However it's pronounced. He had 100. Yeah, he had 100 yard game this past week against Maryland, so he is ready to go as well. They've got two backs if Marshall's healthy. And I think that everything Ohio State's done defensively has begun with Kaden McDonald crashing and, and getting a hand on the runner at the line of scrimmage and holding them up. And then, you know, everybody else comes in and makes the play, but he's, he's, he's played at an all American level, to my way of thinking, you know, certainly first team, all Big Ten. So think Kaden McDonald is the guy that's got to set the tone early that no, no, no, no, you're not going to run Ohio State this year.

[Doug Lamorisse]

What's his name again?

[Bill Landis]

Arval. Arvel. Arvell Reese.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Arnie.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Arval.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Arnie Reese. Yeah. Well, he's just gonna, I mean, like. And he, he, he set the world on fire, became the people's number one pick in the draft. And then they've kind of maybe just like not activated him the past couple games. And so I think we simultaneously. Nerd. Your God. You're nodding your head, Gerd. Like, did I just call you nerd instead of Gerd?

[Bill Landis]

You did.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Nerd is dotting his head.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Thank you for taking me back to the fourth grade all over again. Appreciate it, Doug. Good night, everybody.

[Doug Lamorisse]

The combination of, like, they've just, like, we take his greatness for granted already, even though he just jumped on the scene this year. And also we just kind of. They haven't maybe called on him as much the past couple games, but Gerd, he's. He's kind of floating over everything happening with this defense. Right.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, and I think he's the guy that's your. He's your spy for Bryce Underwood. And at some point, the spy becomes the attacker where you just. All right, now go get him and, and you've got the leverage. Go get him and try to keep him from getting outside because he will pick up third downs on, on, on the run. And they were 12 of 14 against Maryland on third downs. That's my gosh. Yeah. If they do that again against Ohio State, you know, you all know what's going to happen. But I think you're going to see him kind of like as the. Maybe similar to the Texas game where he exploded, where he's just, he's the Spy. He's just blowing up left tackles and right tackles and doing Arvell Reese stuff. And I am interested, interested to see what Matt Patricia rolls out for this one against a true freshman quarterback, even though that true freshman quarterback has now played 11 games. Yeah, you've seen veteran quarterbacks have issues with Matt Patricia's defense. And then, Doug, real quick on the. The flag planning. How much of the. The seat belt celebration do you think is prepared IGB for that? Is that it's.

[Doug Lamorisse]

It's been. It's right in front of us. It's been hiding in plain sight the whole time. It's like, is it a seat belt? Is he putting a sword in its sheath? And it's like, no, it's a pre flag plant. And they were like, oh, it's a seat belt. And I think the only reason it wouldn't be IGB is if Jermaine Matthews rips the flag out of his hand first and does it himself. Like, those two corners will be battling for it. It's not question, but do we think a flag plant with the win is on the table or. Or would Ryan Day say, like, make sure we don't do that? Like, we want to put all that behind us?

[Bill Landis]

Ryan Day might do it. What do you mean?

[Steve Hellwagen]

My family, don't you want to be above it?

[Doug Lamorisse]

No, you're not above it.

[Bill Landis]

They'll plant a flag at the 50 with the logo was Brothers PI Firm. And they said, like, suck at Michigan. Like, yeah, that'd be great. My nominee would be this. The Steelers are home on Sunday, but Jack Sawyer running through the tunnel like the ultimate warrior. Yeah. Coming down the ramp. He's gonna do it. Yeah.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Arms face painted, Sawyer 33 jersey.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah.

[Tony Gerdeman]

I do think, like, again, planting a flag on turf is silly. So y' all should maybe want to bring some dirt, maybe a pot of some sort or.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Or a holder. You know, a holder like that.

[Bill Landis]

Ryan days on the 50. Like a dad at the beach trying to put up a canopy. And then the players come over and put the flag.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah. All right.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Everything about this week is routine, but we are throwing in a Friday meeting about who's carrying the pot, who's carrying the flag, how we're gonna plant it. Let's make sure we have a flag planting strategy in case the Buckeyes win. Bill, question number three. Starting with you, 100 point scale for this game, I would say this game for Ohio State on Saturday. What part of it is mental, emotional, like that kind of thing that will determine it for Ohio State and How much of it is just the football, the scheme, the talent for this Saturday? How much of an emotional, mental game is it?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I'm leaning more football and scheme here, actually. I think. I think I might go like 70% on that end of it and maybe 30 of the mental, emotional. That's always a component, but, but Gerd sort of touched on it. Like, what. What's Matt Patricia gonna have in his bag for. For Bryce Underwood in this offense, right? Like there, there can be. And the same is true. Like, you know, the Connor Stallion stuff like, hovers over all this, right? What's happened the last couple years in the rivalry. But what also is true is that like, Jim Harbaugh hired some really good defensive coordinators who gave Ohio State a lot of problems schematically. And. And I think that Matt Patricia can show up here and do the same thing for Ohio State. And then, you know, on the other side that that matchup will. Will continue. And then, you know, there's the, the personnel matchups of whether or not Carnell and Jeremiah play, and then how the offense may or may not change if one does, or both can't, or whatever. Whatever that looks like. So it's a lot of football for me in this game. Not, not dismissing the mental, emotional part of it because. Because it is there. But I think it is more about schema matchups.

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[Doug Lamorisse]

I'm close that I'm 60% football talent scheme, 40% mental emotional. But the hard part of it is, is like, does the mental emotional prevent you from activating the scheme? That, of course, it's all the same thing that, you know, I mean, if you looked at last year, it's like, why would you say, what would you say it was last year, right? It's like, well, it felt like maybe they could have done some other things that they chose not to do. For some reason, they had to have a meeting about it and then injury stuff happened. Right? So it's. I, I do think maybe what Ryan Day is trying to do with this whole routine thing is like, lower that mental emotional percentage as much as possible, because they believe if it is on the talent, the football, the scheme, they're the better team. And so I'm not sure he, he doesn't want that to be close to 90, 10, but I'll say 60, 40 in favor of the football. Steve Hellwagen, what's your breakdown on this?

[Steve Hellwagen]

I think it's got to be 80, 20, football and scheme and talent. It's got to be clinical. You can't. That, that emotional gets you to the, to the starting blocks. Okay? It gets you to game day. It gets you through the tough, you know, things back in February, you know, where it's six in the morning and you're out there, you know, doing, you know, calisthenics and whatever to get ready for the season and spring football or whatever and start, start the, the climb back up the mountain. Everything that happened in July with running in the heat and everything else, that emotional get you through all that. But at this point, you know, you put that aside and you have to focus and really only concern yourself with what your job is and going out and executing your job. And if you can't do that, if you, if you take a bad personal foul penalty because you're, you're mad at somebody or, you know, whatever, you're letting emotions, you know, play, play you, then, then you're going to lose your team. The game is what's going to happen. So to me, I'm thinking it's 80, 20 you're clinical. You just go out and you do your business. You knock them down, you pick them up, you knock them down, you pick them up, and you just keep doing it over and over and over. Eventually you win the game.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Okay, all right, Good time for your math.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, I think it's kind of like the crazy hot matrix where at the start it's all talent. And then as the game goes on and maybe it's a little closer, then it gets a little crazier and the craziness rises. But I, you know, I'll to not repeat an answer. I'll say 75, 25 talent. And then, but as the game goes on and the score is close, then that 25 can continue to rise and rise. But I also think Matt Patricia comes into this game, he's like, I'm undefeated against Michigan. I don't know about, you know, I do know about you all, but I've never lost to these guys. I'm not planning on starting now. Do you expect, do you think he's gonna like, lose to a freshman quarterback? I'm sure he's, he would love to be facing a freshman quarterback in this game. If you told him at the, the outset of the season, like, hey, against Michigan, if you come here against Michigan, you know, we want to win this game, you'll be facing a true freshman quarterback. Cool. Sign me up. Let's do it. I love, I never got to face a freshman quarterback in, in the pros. You're only getting fourth and fifth year college guys as rookies at the very least. And so now, yeah, I'm sure he's, he's all fired up about that. And you've got a defense, guys that can do whatever you ask. And they, they talked about, Sonny talked about how, well, how easy it is to learn from him. So they can show stuff that they haven't shown all year in this one if they want to, and then they probably will at some point. But yeah, 75, 25. With a lot of the 75 being on the defense because. Okay, just tackle and be sound and I think you're gonna be okay.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Okay. All right. Question number four. This is like wide open, wide open. What is the best thing about the Ohio State Michigan rivalry in your mind? This is just letting us chat about the game. And, and I, I would just, I was thinking about this last night and Steve bringing up Charles Woodson and David Boston, like, kind of reinforce this for me to me, and it's, it's obviously specific to the game, but it's a little bit broader. It just is such an easy, natural way to connect yourself to your own history that if you, if the, if you didn't have the Ohio State Michigan game, when would Ohio State fans of today just bring up David Boston? Right? When would you just bring up Rex Kern or, or Jack Tatum or when would you just bring up Beanie Wells, right? That, that it's just, it allows you to conn your past through this game. That it's not even really about Michigan necessarily, with what I'm talking about, but it, you don't have to. It's not like, oh, we're honoring the 25th anniversary of some team and they're going to come out and stand, you know, between at the first time out of the, of the second quarter and everyone's going to cheer for him, right? Like, it's not at all, it's not forced, it's just natural. And so I think for all of us to connect to our past is a very important thing. And then it makes me think like, if you're Penn State and you're not rivaled or that kind of thing, it's like, when do you do that? Like, when do you connect to your past? When do you appreciate your past? When do you tell stories? And I would imagine like Thanksgiving week, right? All you get together with friends and family and it's Ohio State Michigan. I'm sure people are saying, like, oh man, I remember this game. We're going to do our most vivid memories and it gives us a reason to talk about Troy Smith. If there wasn't a Michigan rivalry, when would we talk about Troy Smith for no reason, right? Would it just come up? So I think it's, it's that opportunity that's about yourself. It's about Ohio State fans connecting to the hundred year history of this through this game that I really. It just happens, man. Steve, you've been around a lot. What's the best thing about this rivalry?

[Steve Hellwagen]

Oh, there are a lot of great things about it. I mean, up until the last decade or so, it was not Thanksgiving weekend. Obviously, with the change in the schedule, in the calendar, it's now Thanksgiving weekend. And that makes it easier for three generations of families to be sitting in the family room with the game on television and they're all spending quality time together. And you know, it's, it's, it's our way of life against their way of life. Basically, it's Ohio, which is like the garden spot of the world against this dark, dire, cold, dank place that they call Michigan. And you know, that's, that's just, it's, it just is what it is. I mean, part of my feeling about Michigan is clouded by the fact that we usually go there the last Saturday of November or for a winter time basketball game. And it's never above 30 degrees and there's usually an inch of snow or two on the ground. So it's never, I've never been there. At this quote, pure Michigan thing they talk about, you know, where all you got squirrels.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Steve Hellwagen]

And nice little lakes and, you know, whatever. I've never seen any of that. I've seen potholes on the road. I've seen, you know, just a dire, awful, dank place. And so to me, I think for Ohio people, it's just, it's, you know, for an Ohio State player, you're not an Ohio State legend unless you did something important in the game. You know, here's Archie Griffin. He never, never lost to him. He was three oh and one. You know, you had, you know, guys who had great careers at Ohio State, you know, but they couldn't beat Michigan. So they're not regarded at the same level as some of the legends who did pull it off. You know, the pass me. Troy Smith was 3, 0 as the starting quarterback for Ohio State against Michigan. I mean, you know, granted, they went on a loss to national championship game, but, you know, that, that kind of hangs in his lore. Certainly. And when these players get back together and meet, they compare. Oh, Yeah, I was three and one against him. Oh, really? I was 4 0. I mean, think about all them trestle kids from like what, 2004 all the way to 2010. They all went 4 0. You know, I mean, it was just boom, boom, boom, boom, one class after another. That's what Ohio State needs to get back to. Certainly, you know, six years. I wrote it down here somewhere. 2191 days on Saturdays will be since 2019 when they beat him. And so the time has come, you know, to, you know, they won the national championship last year. Time to check another box.

[Doug Lamorisse]

But I thought 2,100 and whatever days I thought was that was how long Steve Hellwagen has spent watching the Ohio State Michigan game in his life. I got confused. Fuse on the numbers.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah. Pretty close 2000 hours.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah. Bill, what a great invite we extended this week to have Steve grace us with his presence here for Ohio State Mission.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Oh, we're trying.

[Doug Lamorisse]

What, what do you like the best about this thing?

[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, I think the, one of the fun things is you look forward to it. All year long. It's. It happens one point in the year, and you look forward to it.

[Bill Landis]

And.

[Tony Gerdeman]

And yet you can also talk about it in June and you. You can talk about it at any point. Like, like, you look forward to Christmas all year long, and then if somebody's like in June wants to talk to you about Christmas, you'd be like, dude, it's June. Leave me alone. You know, like, I don't. I don't need to talk about that. We could talk about Michigan any day of the week and the rivalry any day of the week, and you just look forward to it all year long, and then you live with the results and it's either, you know, basking for a year, or you're in constant pain for a year about it and. Or however much pain you choose to accept. And some choose to accept a lot. And they can. They. It's funny, like, the people who accept the pain often can't deal with it. So it's like maybe just don't accept the pain. Maybe just, you know, choose not to accept it. It's like, no, no, no. I want this and I want people to know I'm hurting. And I want. I want people to feel the same pain that I am feeling. But I like it because it's. It's once a year and yet it's also year round.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah.

[Tony Gerdeman]

And there's not a lot of things like that.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah. Don't talk to Gerd about Christmas in June. Just everybody be advised. He's gonna say no. But how will Ohio State block Michigan tackle? That is a worthy June topic. Right? I. Makes complete sense.

[Tony Gerdeman]

How are you gonna deal with Bryce Underwood as a soft.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamorisse]

I.

[Bill Landis]

He will be better. He will be better.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

You're worried about it already. You got to play the first one. First time. I, like Steve, have also never seen the sunshine in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Just saying. I. I think for. For me, it's just like the feeling walking into the stadium. I don't like. And wherever the game is, there's nothing like it. I've. And you guys have been doing this longer than I have, but like, you know, in the, in the decade, a little bit plus that I've been covering Ohio State. Like, I got to cover two national championships and big bowl games and really cool games, and none of them come close to feeling like. Like what it feels like walking into the shoe or the big house on the morning of this game, and the whole place, like, dripping with anxiety and rage, and you get like, they're so close and the fans do a good job of traveling. That there's not just like a smattering of Michigan fans in the shoe or just a smattering of Ohio State fans in a big house. Like it's a pretty good contingent of the opposing fan base. There just like creates this wholly unique environment that I'm. I don't know if it exists in other places in the sport. Like I've. I don't know. I've never gone to an Iron bowl, don't really care to, but I just, I just can't imagine it holds up to what Ohio State, Michigan is. So like for someone who didn't, you know, I didn't grow up in it. I never, you know, I watched it on television and appreciated it. But then like covering the first one in 14 and being able to cover. I think this will be my 11th now.

[Doug Lamorisse]

I'm.

[Bill Landis]

I'm just looking forward to walking into the stadium again and kind of, kind of getting that feeling because there truly is nothing like it.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Love it. All right, last thing. Steve, we'll start with you again. Your most vivid memories of the game. Memory or memories, the things like, oh, that's etched in my mind. Whether it's something you covered, something you watched when you were younger, what is it?

[Steve Hellwagen]

So many of them. I mean, growing up here in Ohio, in central Ohio, you only got two or three games on television every year, but you were assured you were going to get the Michigan game. So you're watching Woody and his antics out there in the 70s, tearing up a yard marker. You know, I mean, I mean it, it was real. I mean it was just like the dog on this thing. And then I got here in 86 and the first year, Ohio State was 02 in football. That year they lost to Alabama and Washington to start the season. And they were 02 for the first time since 1896. And then they reeled off nine wins in a row. And this is Chris Spielman, Chris Carter, Jim Carsado, SEC quarterback. And they're playing Michigan. I can see the stadium right out the window here at Panera. And Jim Harbaugh guaranteed the victory in 1986. And he came in here and he faked like he couldn't get his signals out and the officials stopped the game. Maybe even been a five yard penalty at the time if the crowd was too loud. I mean, it was ridiculous. They. They turn off the play clock. I mean, it was like you could just run the play whenever you're ready to run it type thing. It was weird. Whatever the rules were at that time. And so you had that gamesmanship. And Jamie Morris ran for over 200 yards. Chris Spielman had 29 tackles, 29 tackles. And Ohio State kicked a field goal in the final minute. And it was wide left, I believe, 47 yard field goal. And the announcer comes on, you know, Michigan takes over. Ohio State's out of timeouts. Michigan's going to win the game. He goes, cotton bowl tickets will be available at the Ohio Union on Monday. I mean, they're playing to go to the Rose bowl and the game isn't even over yet. And this guy's hawking Cotton bowl tickets. I mean, it was surreal. And the game took four hours to play. It was 33 degrees. There was like fog coming in off the river. I mean, it was just a surreal situation. It was the first time I'd ever been to a game like that. And then so many more like that over the years. One versus two in 2006. That was an incredible scene. It gets lost in history because neither team went on from there and did anything with it. Michigan lost to usc, I think, in the Rose Bowl. And Ohio State got stomped by Florida in the national championship game. So it didn't mean anything. You know, you want to win in 2002. You know, it had been over 30 years since Ohio State of one national championship. And it had been, you know, everybody knew all the problems coup had. Well, here's Trestle in his first home game against Michigan, and they barely squeak it out, 14 to 9. And when will Allen intercepts the pass from John Navarro, the last play of the game, it was a spontaneous. They came and as Andy Geiger said, when they redid the stadium, it was now like an 8 or 10 foot drop to get from the first row down to the thing that didn't matter. Those people came from every direction. It was a spontaneous everybody meet in the middle moment. And Ohio State was going to the national championship to play Miami six weeks from now in the Fiesta Bowl.

[Narrator/Commercial Voice]

And.

[Steve Hellwagen]

That was the most unbridled, unbridled, just deliriousness. I mean, they're carrying Craig Krenzel off the field, you know, I mean, it's. They're holding up bags of Tostitos. I mean, it was. It was this. It was the craziest, craziest field rush that I can recall that he catches this pass. And then within 20 seconds, the field is full of people, you know, and you're like, I hope Michigan was able to get off the field. You know, I hope they hope they started running when the ball was in the air. So.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah, let's get out of here. Yeah.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah. A lot of memories. And of course, one that really stands out, one of the best teams Ohio State had, 1995, Eddie George wins the Heisman Trophy and they go up to Michigan and lose, 31 to 23. And here's Lloyd Carr. I think he was the interim coach that year because they'd fired Gary Moeller, you know, before the season. And we're driving out of the stadium in the parking lot, the news comes across they've made Lloyd Carr the permanent head coach just because he won that game. They weren't any good that year. They were like 7 and 5 or something. But, you know, you win that game, you're a legend. So that's the. That's the ultimate. And I think Woodson, as a freshman that year may have had one or two interceptions too. So. Yeah, just crazy stuff.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Crazy. We could go all day.

[Steve Hellwagen]

We could.

[Bill Landis]

We could.

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[Tony Gerdeman]

Well, I was at that 95 game as a student. And I think Tim Biakabatuka scored all of his touchdowns in the same end zone that I was sitting 313 yards. Yeah, that's. That's an indelible. But I'll give you two for vastly different reasons. And we've all, we were all at both of these games, 2016, just being on the field level for all for the overtimes, because we get down there and you know, towards the end of the game and you're watching it go back and forth and then being in the corner where Curtis Samuel scored and being in that same area where J.T. barrett clearly picks up the first down, no controversy there, but just experiencing that and watching Urban the entire time, watching his reactions to all of this. And I, you know, that's. That gets shown constantly. The Curtis Samuel touchdown. Seeing it happen, you can see like, well, this is a touchdown just by the way the defense has, has approached it. And then for a vastly different reason, one that I will never, ever, ever Forget. It was 2017 when Urban Meyer came into the post game room after the win saying, a cameraman injured my quarterback and I will not rest until I find out who this is. And I was at the ozone at the time and I was terrified that it was a ozone legend, a late great Jim Davidson that had somehow injured J.T. barrett and being responsible in some way for that. So. Well, he says it wasn't. He said it wasn't him, but that was a, A big time concern. But that whole, that whole game was also very interesting to see Dwayne Haskins come out there and.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Yeah.

[Tony Gerdeman]

And win that one. So those two.

[Steve Hellwagen]

One.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Those two games are. Yeah, they're certainly up there.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Man, there's a lot of them. Bill, what do you got?

[Bill Landis]

Oh, yeah, two. Two jump out. For me, the what one is just Justin Fields coming out of the medical tent and throwing that touchdown to G. Wilson. In 2019. That game was not particularly close, but at that moment it was still like a little bit in the balance. And that was just like hero ball stuff. A guy coming out, coming out of the. The tent and not really throwing a touchdown, but like having to actually like sprint out to his left and then pivot on the knee that he had just injured and then throw the touchdown was pretty crazy. And then, yes, 6, 16 for me as well, for very different reasons. I was not on the field. I was in the press box with one they won story and one they lost story on my screen trying to figure out which one had to be published. And it is probably the most anxious is probably the right word for it. I don't know, like terrified. I've been is like. And I was still. That was my third OSU mission in my third year on the beat. I was still fairly young and new at this and like figuring things out and like not one, not knowing how to like process and write about a loss to Michigan and two, having really no idea what was going to happen as I was trying to figure out what story to publish. Yeah. Something I'll never forget.

[Steve Hellwagen]

You know, just to throw in the Ohio State. You're not allowed to lose a game as, as Ryan Day says, just try losing one and see what the reaction is. Like, you know, he's won the national championship and yet if he loses this game on Saturday, the people are going to be coming out of the woodwork, the lunatic fringe and they're going to be like, this guy doesn't get it. He's not one of us. He's gotta go. And you're like, dude, he's leading the best football program in America. That's going right now. So you know, calm down. But the tension of these overtimes in these half to games which for every Ohio State game is every time it's ever happened. I remember one against NC State against Philip Rivers in 2003 I think or yeah 2003, they went to triple overtime. And you're sitting there and your heart is just pounding out of your chest with every play that happens. You're like my God, this is, this is the entirety of the world is hinging on this next play. Just amp that up for two versus three in Michigan versus Ohio State. I mean that was, that that day was incredible. Just an incredible day.

[Doug Lamorisse]

We did get to 49 minutes and 26 seconds before the first lunatic fringe mention on this show.

[Steve Hellwagen]

So let's get ready.

[Doug Lamorisse]

So just two quick ones for me. My, my first Ohio State Michigan game was the first one that I covered. I did not grow up in Ohio. I did not like it was not a thing for me. I wasn't locked in to do Ohio State Michigan game. So 2005 in Ann Arbor that I can like see Anthony Gonzalez in my head. Like I always the helicopter catch like up going. I just thought when that throw was made, I thought that was a Heisman winner to a congressman. I bet, I bet that's what that's gonna be. So I could like I of all, I have a terrible memory but I can see Anthony Gonzalez in my head catching that pass from Troy Smith to set up the final touchdown. And then it's weird. This is almost like a false memory, but I know it actually happened. But when they, when Ohio State won in oh, seven in Ann Arbor and they all were climbing into the stands with the parents with roses in their mouths because they thought they had locked up a Rose bowl birth. And then everything exploded in college football and they wound up going to the national championship game in the Sugar bowl against LSU instead. But at that time they hadn't been to the Rose bowl in a while. And so I feel like I, and I was just down there in that part where they were climbing up and it was like, like, man, Ohio State just beat Michigan to go to the Rose Bowl. This is Woody and Bo stuff. And there's like, yeah, they're going to play Glenn Dorsey in New Orleans.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Red Sea parted. They needed seven teams to lose and, and eight of them lost or something. It was just nuts. I mean, they were sitting eight. They needed like six teams in front of them to lose and all seven of the teams in front of them lost. So yeah, it was ridiculous.

[Tony Gerdeman]

So can I give you another perhaps false memory that perfectly encapsulates this rivalry in 1996 for Senior Day. My recollection is as Greg Bellasari is being announced with his family, Lloyd Carr sends the team out and they just run over Greg Bellasari like through this.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yep.

[Tony Gerdeman]

And that's, you know, that was ridiculous, you know. Yeah, so like that, that's, I, that's how I remember it. I don't know if that's actually what happened, but Steve was there, so I was there.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah. 13 to 9. And they didn't, didn't obviously score a touchdown. They had kicked. They got down inside the five yard line like two or three times and had to kick chip shot field goals. And you know, you settle for that. And of course it was Sean Springs, one of the best cornerbacks the school has ever produced, slipped on an easy, you know, 10 yard route to tie streets and tie streets was gone, you know, 70 yards, whatever it was. So yeah, that, that was, that was a bitter pill. I can remember our office was in Greenview. I worked for Buckeye Sports Bulletin. And we're going over that bridge to go over into Grandview. And the sun is setting and it's like 40 degrees. It's a perfect day. And I just looked at the person next to me and I said, look at this day. Would you just look at this as a beautiful, perfect day in November. The sun is still out here about 4:30 in the afternoon. And these guys just ruined it, you know, I mean, just. Just ruined it. I mean, they were supposed to be. I mean, that took them out of the national. They would have won the national championship if they win that game and then go on and beat Arizona State in the Rose bowl, because the winner, Florida, with Wurfle, they had one loss. They, you know, so that cost him the national championship.

[Doug Lamorisse]

So, oh, my God, driving over that.

[Steve Hellwagen]

Bridge, they just ruined it. Wow, this was a perfect day. Everybody remembers Andy Geiger, too. I thought about him. He. We're going back up to the press box, you know, making our walk back there down the other end of the field. Here's Andy going to the north end of the stadium. He's got his heavy coat on, he's got his head down, and he's just trudging along like he can't believe, you know, what's going on. But, yeah, that was. Welcome to the rivalry, Andy. It's gonna be like that quite a bit.

[Doug Lamorisse]

So I hope everyone has a beautiful Saturday, man, a lot. Steve Hellwig and Tony Gerdeman, thank you so much for joining us here on this episode of around the Shoes. Steve, where can the folks find you? Where they. Where can they. How can they keep up with your coverage of the Buckeyes?

[Steve Hellwagen]

Yeah, just Bucknuts.com is where we're at. And, you know, we're trying to stay on top of everything happening this week. And, you know, it. It is fabulous week. Hope everybody has a great Thanksgiving and safe holiday weekend. And if you're going up to Ann Arbor, you know, generally they don't harass the opposing fans a whole lot. You know, I've seen Ohio State people kicked and knocked down up there before for being acting out of pocket. But, you know, I tell people, you know, wear your Ohio State stuff underneath your coat. Wear your heavy coat. Then when you're at your seat, take it off, cheer for your team. Then when you're done, put it back on and walk to your car. That way you can go to school or work on Monday. So that's my advice when you go to some of these places, like Penn State, Wisconsin, they're just, you know, really poorish sometimes in Michigan to a point, but not, not always.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Good advice from Steve Hellwig and Gerd. Where can the folks find your coverage?

[Tony Gerdeman]

One real quick, not to make this show too long, but in terms of dealing with the fans in Ann Arbor, if you do go, when we went, when I was a college student, there was, as we're leaving the stadium, there's like a nine and ten year old brother and sister flipping us off and laughing at us and cops just watching it and then the cops offering, hey, we got some free roses for anybody that wants them, you know, because Ohio State lost their chance at the Rose Bowl. So just some good natured stuff if you go up there. But you can find me@buckeye huddle.com the Buckeye Weekly Podcast. You can find that on YouTube and all of your audio podcast platforms of choice. We're just, I think you guys, guys, we've got like no, no lie like 25 shows scheduled this week breaking the game down.

[Steve Hellwagen]

You know, as Ohio State fans, their motto ought to be we survived the 1990s. We can survive anything. And you know, this is, these last four years are just kind of part time compared to what, what, what people went through in the 1990s.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Sure, Gerd survived getting flipped off by third graders. And look at him now, right? Like you come out.

[Tony Gerdeman]

Yeah, I hate all third graders now.

[Doug Lamorisse]

Bad kids. Steve Hellwig and Tony Gerdman, thank you for joining us. Bill Landis, Doug Lamoris, we're always here on Monday and we're here the rest of the week as well. Grateful you guys are here hanging out, letting us talk football with you. Have a great Thanksgiving week. We'll have a bunch more shows here on YouTube and on the podcast feeds again. Find us on Substack for now for Steve, for Gerd, for Bill, I'm Doug. And that was around the shoe on the Bill and Doug show.

[Narrator/Commercial Voice]

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[Doug Lamorisse]

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