The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State-Michigan Around the Shoe

Episode Date: November 24, 2025
Guests: Steve Hellwagen (Bucknuts.com), Tony Gerdeman (BuckeyeHuddle.com)
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises, Bill Landis
Main Theme:
A comprehensive, lively discussion leading into the 2025 Ohio State–Michigan game. The panel examines the Buckeyes’ most important offensive and defensive players, delves into the essence of the rivalry, and relives vivid OSU-Michigan memories, all with an eye for detail, humor, and deep respect for the tradition.

Episode Overview

The hosts and guests dive into five major topics related to Ohio State’s matchup with Michigan—key players who could swing the outcome, the mental/emotional vs. tactical side of “The Game,” the rivalry’s best qualities, and their deepest personal memories tied to the contest. Rich with stats, storytelling, and banter, it’s both prep for fans and a celebration of what makes this rivalry unique.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Most Important Ohio State Offensive Player in The Game

(Starts at 04:10)

• Steve Hellwagen’s Pick:
  • Max Claire (tight end). “That is the Max Claire we were promised last January… running through space and time through the Rutgers secondary, I mean that’s what we paid for, that we wanted to see.” (05:24)
  • Also shouts out Bo Jackson (running back), who’s “been this close to breaking the big one… If he can hit a big one like that in the Michigan game, that would change the tenor of the game certainly.” (06:22)
• Tony Gerdeman’s Pick:
  • Julian Sayin (quarterback).
    • Emphasizes that hitting open receivers is key and the offense will succeed “if Julian Sayin is hitting his receivers, then I think this is a win… Just do what you’ve been doing.” (07:16)
• Bill Landis’s Pick:
  • Carson Hinsman (center). “He’s got to play better than he’s played in the last two games against Michigan, because the last thing that Ohio State needs is Julian Sayin with guys running in his face all game.” (15:07)
• Supporting Stats:
  • Michigan has struggled defending tight ends: “Four [opposing] tight ends set season highs in catches, three set season highs in yards, and three in touchdowns against Michigan.” – Tony Gerdeman (14:22)
• General O-line concern:
  • Tegra Tshabola (right guard) and offensive line depth are under the microscope; the group agrees shoring up protection and adjusting to any mismatches will be vital. (17:05-19:43)

2. Most Important Ohio State Defensive Player

(Starts at 19:43)

• Tony Gerdeman’s Pick:
  • Caden Curry (edge). “Could be their best pass rusher and also one of the best run defenders… He can cover the flats when he sees a pass going out there, he can read screens, he can do so many different things.” (20:05)
• Bill Landis’s Pick:
  • Sonny Styles (linebacker). “He needs to be the guy that sort of keeps a four yard run to a four yard run… There is one linebacker in all of FBS that has played 400 snaps and not missed a tackle and it's Sonny Styles.” (21:38)
• Doug Lesmerises’s Pick:
  • Davison Igbinosun (cornerback). “This man is ready to play at a high level and celebrate at a high level… lockdown Andrew Marsh and then start a brawl, this guy is ready for the history books.” (23:13)
• Steve Hellwagen’s Pick:
  • Collectively points to Edric Houston, Tywone Malone, and Caden McDonald at defensive tackle: “Everything Ohio State's done defensively has begun with Caden McDonald crashing and getting a hand on the runner at the line of scrimmage and holding them up.” (25:00)
• On Potential Flag Planting and Emotions:
  • Speculation that Igbinosun would be the Buckeye most likely to plant a flag at Michigan Stadium if they win: “If there is an attempted flag planting, who is the most likely flag planter and why is it Davison Igbinosun?” (23:13)
  • “[Ryan] Day might do it. What do you mean?” – Bill Landis (28:51)
  • Running joke about needing a pot of dirt to make flag planting possible on turf. (29:00–29:37)

3. How Much of This Game Is Mental/Emotional vs. Football/Scheme?

(Starts at 30:25)

• Bill Landis:
  • “I think I might go like 70% [football and scheme], 30 [mental/emotional]. … What’s Matt Patricia gonna have in his bag for Bryce Underwood and this offense?” (30:25)
• Doug Lesmerises:
  • Close split, “60% football, talent, scheme; 40% mental, emotional. … does the mental/emotional prevent you from activating the scheme?” (33:01)
• Steve Hellwagen:
  • “80/20 football and scheme and talent… You can’t let emotions [control] you, you have to focus and really only concern yourself with what your job is and executing.” (33:48)
• Tony Gerdeman:
  • “Kind of like the crazy/hot matrix. At the start it’s all talent, as the game goes on and it’s closer, the craziness rises.”
  • Sees “75/25 talent,” but the emotional aspect ramps up in clutch moments. (35:05)

4. Best Thing About the OSU-Michigan Rivalry

(Starts at 36:46)

• Doug Lesmerises:
  • “It just is such an easy, natural way to connect yourself to your own history… it gives us a reason to talk about Troy Smith… It allows you to connect to your past through this game.” (36:46-38:38)
• Steve Hellwagen:
  • “For an Ohio State player, you’re not an Ohio State legend unless you did something important in the game… you had guys who had great careers at Ohio State, but couldn’t beat Michigan, so they’re not regarded at the same level as some of the legends who did pull it off.” (39:42)
  • Ohio vs. Michigan: “It’s Ohio, the garden spot of the world, against this dark, dire, cold, dank place that they call Michigan.” (38:38)
• Tony Gerdeman:
  • “You look forward to it all year long… and then you live with the results and it’s either basking for a year, or you’re in constant pain for a year about it… it’s once a year and yet it’s also year-round. And there’s not a lot of things like that.” (41:37)
• Bill Landis:
  • “The feeling walking into the stadium—there’s nothing like it… the whole place, like, dripping with anxiety and rage… I got to cover two national championships and big bowl games, none of them come close to feeling like this.” (43:12)

5. Most Vivid Ohio State-Michigan Memories

(Starts at 44:39)

• Steve Hellwagen:
  • 1986 Game: Harbaugh’s guarantee, field goal miss, fog, “surreal situation.” (44:54)
  • 2002 “Will Allen interception”: “Within 20 seconds, the field is full of people… the most unbridled, just deliriousness.” (48:13)
  • 1995 Biakabutuka Game: “One of the best teams Ohio State had, Eddie George wins the Heisman… lose in Ann Arbor. Lloyd Carr becomes permanent head coach on the spot for winning that game.” (48:47)
• Tony Gerdeman:
  • 1995 Loss as Student: “Tim Biakabutuka scored all of his touchdowns in the same endzone I was sitting in… 313 yards, that’s an indelible [memory].” (51:12)
  • 2016 double-overtime: “Watching Urban the entire time… being in the corner where Curtis Samuel scored and where J.T. Barrett clearly picks up the first down, no controversy there…” (52:46)
  • 2017 Postgame “Injured QB”: Urban Meyer blaming a cameraman—humorously fearing it was a colleague. Emphasizes the level of anxiety and chaos surrounding the rivalry. (52:47)
• Bill Landis:
  • 2019 Fields Out of Tent: “Justin Fields coming out of the medical tent and throwing that touchdown to G. Wilson… just hero ball stuff.” (52:55)
  • 2016 Press Box Tension: “I was in the press box with one ‘they won’ story and one ‘they lost’ story… maybe the most anxious I’ve been trying to figure out what to publish.” (52:55)
• Doug Lesmerises:
  • 2005 Anthony Gonzalez catch: “I have a terrible memory but I can see Anthony Gonzalez in my head… helicopter catch, thought that was a Heisman winner to a congressman.” (55:17)
  • 2007 OSU to Rose Bowl, then chaos: “They were all climbing into the stands with roses in their mouths because they thought they locked up a Rose Bowl, then blew up into LSU.” (56:27)
• Other vivid details:
  • Ann Arbor stories: Cop giving out roses after a Michigan win; “nine and ten year old brother and sister flipping us off…” (60:22–61:02)
  • “Survived the 1990s”: Joking that the 1990s make recent OSU struggles feel like “part time.” (61:02)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “That Max Claire we saw against Rutgers, that is the Max player we were promised last January.” — Steve Hellwagen (05:24)
• “If Julian Sayin is hitting his receivers, then I think this is a win… just do what you’ve been doing.” — Tony Gerdeman (07:16)
• “There is one linebacker in all of FBS that has played 400 snaps and not missed a tackle and it’s Sonny Styles.” — Bill Landis (21:38)
• “It’s Ohio, the garden spot of the world, against this dark, dire, cold, dank place that they call Michigan.” — Steve Hellwagen (38:38)
• “For an Ohio State player, you’re not a legend unless you did something important in the game.” — Steve Hellwagen (39:42)
• “It’s once a year and yet it’s also year-round. There’s not a lot of things like that.” — Tony Gerdeman (42:42)
• “The whole place, like, dripping with anxiety and rage.” — Bill Landis (43:12)
• “The entirety of the world is hinging on this next play. Just amp that up for two versus three in Michigan versus Ohio State.” — Steve Hellwagen (54:01)
• [On the overwrought nature of the rivalry] “Just try losing one and see what the reaction is like… the tension of these overtimes… your heart is just pounding out of your chest…” — Steve Hellwagen (54:01)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Guest Introductions & Rivalry Experience – 01:05–04:10
• Offensive Impact Players – 04:10–19:43
• Defensive Impact Players – 19:43–30:25
• Mental/Emotional vs Football/Scheme – 30:25–36:46
• Best Thing About the Rivalry – 36:46–44:39
• Most Vivid Rivalry Memories – 44:39–end

Tone and Language

A mix of passionate expertise, knowledgeable analysis, nostalgia, and playful rivalry banter. The conversation is warm, rich in personal anecdote, and often self-deprecating, throwing in jokes about bad kids from Toledo, planting flags, and enduring heartbreak in Ann Arbor.

Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen (or read) for Ohio State fans—or anyone wanting to understand the heart of college football’s best rivalry. It expertly weaves Xs and Os with history, emotion, and humor, offering deep insight for the Buckeyes' biggest week.