← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Ohio State-Michigan rivalry reset with Kyle Whittingham hire, update on Buckeyes from Cotton Bowl
00:47:28
Eleven years ago, we were at a College Football Playoff site with Ohio State as Michigan charted a new future with a new head coaching hire. It's happening again, with Michigan hiring Kyle Whittingham as the Buckeyes prep for their Cotton Bowl quarterfinal against Miami.
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- [00:02]
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- [02:00]
Doug Lamoriz
Welcome back to the Bill and Doug show live from the Cotton Ball. You can tell us the Cotton Ball because there's a sign behind us.
- [02:04]
Bill Landis
Bill Landis, we're in the right place. Yeah, very windy here in Dallas too, by the way. I don't they're playing in the dome. It doesn't matter, but last year it snowed here and now there's like 50 mile an hour winds.
- [02:16]
Doug Lamoriz
So it is a Sunday night. Douglas, Maurice and Bill Landis are so happy to be joining you from the Media Hotel here at the Cotton bowl where in three nights Ohio State will take on Miami. That's number two, Ohio State versus number 10, Miami. We've been battling some Internet issues. You've made four different tumbleweed jokes on the shows that didn't run. And then you didn't make the tumbleweed joke just now.
- [02:36]
Bill Landis
I did. I did see one though, over there in the corner. There was a bunch of crap Blowing around. It looked like a tumbleweed. I guess they're real, but they were fake.
- [02:42]
Doug Lamoriz
They are real. It's not just on Wiley Coyote. It is about 6:53 central time as we record this. Bill. We're about 10, 12 minutes away from the release of the injury report which is mandated by the College Football Playoff three days ahead of the game. This game will be played on New Year's Eve, as you guys know. So we will have that coming up during this show.
- [03:05]
Bill Landis
We will.
- [03:06]
Doug Lamoriz
We are not expecting any surprises, really, but you never know. No.
- [03:10]
Bill Landis
And this, this is a new thing for the playoff. They'll send it out three days prior. They'll have to update it every day leading up to the game before putting out a final report. There are some different designations with it as well, and I think are not typically on the Big Ten report. The designations prior to game day are out, doubtful, questionable, probable, available. And there's percentages assigned to each as if, as if teams are actually going to be forthright. Doubt, unlikely to play/25 chance to play questionable, uncertain to play/50% chance to play probable, probable to play 75% chance to play available will play 100% chance to play.
- [04:00]
Doug Lamoriz
I feel like I could have guessed those.
- [04:02]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [04:02]
Doug Lamoriz
I think I could have guessed those.
- [04:03]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [04:04]
Doug Lamoriz
We're going to talk about Michigan and Ohio State as we get ready for Ohio State here. We will have a full media day with both teams on Monday. We will bring you coverage of that both on our substack billadougosu.substack.com and here on your YouTube feed and your podcast feed where you are watching this. We will have a, a postgame show on New Year's Eve live as soon as this thing ends. We'll have other coverage all week. So again, just like thanks for being here. I am curious, Bill, if we are going to sense it all in the next couple days. People getting a little, a little frisky about the Miami Hurricanes. I wonder if something, you and I are gonna have a big game breakdown as well on this YouTube feed and podcast feed coming up where we will make our pick for the game. We will break down both sides of the ball. I'll admit I'm still doing that. But I think people can look at the, what Miami has, offensive line, defensive line, and, and see maybe there are some advantages there and you just acknowledge Miami's talent and as you look across the landscape and I don't think, well, I don't know, this might be an upset that I could, I could imagine Some people trying to think about as we get closer to game time, I.
- [05:22]
Bill Landis
Think it'll be the one because I wouldn't like the four or five Oregon, Texas Tech, like I don't, whatever, whatever you pick there, I don't really think, yeah, you can consider that much of an upset with you go to the other games where the seeds are a little wider then I do think this will be the one where you'll probably see the most upset picks. We've not seen. I don't know if you have. I haven't seen any national people here just yet. I think that's where you get the best gauge of it.
- [05:41]
Doug Lamoriz
Right.
- [05:41]
Bill Landis
Because if you ask a bunch of Miami reporters who do you think's gonna win, you probably actually will get a lot of Miami. And if you ask Ohio State reporters, you're going to get a lot of Ohio state, if not 100 Ohio State. So we'll see what those national picks end up being. We were talking to friend, I'll say we were talking to Ari Wasserman. He picked us up from the airport and drove us over here and he see he wasn't making an official pick but he said he thinks Miami can win. I don't think it's off base. I think Miami can win. I'm a, I'm not surprised by the spread. I think if you look at the way the two teams have played this year who Miami has lost to, the fact that Ohio State's only lost us to Indiana in the Big Ten championship game, of course you can see a path to Ohio State winning this game.
- [06:15]
Doug Lamoriz
It's like nine and a half by.
- [06:16]
Bill Landis
The nine and a half that the spread is still. Yeah, yeah, okay. But I also think you can look at that and say like, man, that feels like a lot of points for like two really good defenses and like two offenses who when they played the best defenses have not exactly put their best foot forward. So I, I don't know honestly what I'm going to pick just yet. I've been watching Miami a lot and I'm going to watch them a little more before we make those picks. But it's not like a pure toss up. But I think I understand a Miami lean. If you look at the matchups.
- [06:43]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah, I, I, I think we're going to get back to and I felt this way with the Ohio State Michigan game, I felt this way with the Ohio State Indiana game that there's a foundation with the Ohio State defense and you start wondering how the other team's going to score.
- [06:55]
Bill Landis
Score Enough? Yeah.
- [06:56]
Doug Lamoriz
Now Indiana scored 13 and that was enough to beat Ohio State on that night. So, like, that's, you know, I think I, I think it's a similar equation of like, you start setting a point total of like, if Ohio State can get to X, I think that's enough. The way this Ohio State defense has played. And so what is that number? And then when you think about Reuben Bain and the Miami defensive line and Ohio State's going to be starting somebody new at right guard, like, you start creating scenarios. Well, could Ohio State be in a situation where they don't score much? So that's not what we're doing here. We're just starting talking here.
- [07:28]
Bill Landis
Do you know, can I ask you, like, do you. Do you have a pretty strong feeling of what your pick will be at this point?
- [07:35]
Doug Lamoriz
It's like one of those things where you sit around for 10 days and you start like.
- [07:39]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [07:40]
Doug Lamoriz
Running through scenarios. You start thinking of game scripts, you start rolling picks around in your head. I think I have my score. I'm. I'm willing to be moved off of that. And I do. I. As we sit here and talk on the evening of the Sunday, the 28th, full media day for both teams on the 29th, head coaches on the 30th, game on the 31st. I always in both situations want to leave room for vibes.
- [08:12]
Bill Landis
Of course, when you get to the.
- [08:13]
Doug Lamoriz
Teams and we are going to get some vibes, I think, and we're also going to get information because we're going to be able to talk to every player on the roster. Every coach on the, on the staff will be available to us. We'll have 45 minutes for each team. We won't get to them all, but I think that's valuable. I think it actually helps you figure out what kind of, of headspace the teams are in which I think matters. When you're talking about 19, 20 and 21 year olds.
- [08:37]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I thought it mattered last year.
- [08:38]
Doug Lamoriz
Right.
- [08:38]
Bill Landis
Like last year I was at the Rose bowl for this round and we had the full team media day with Ohio State and Oregon, and Ohio State brought its whole team, even though it didn't have to. I thought, guys are like, pretty loose and they're obviously coming off the Tennessee win, so they're feeling good about themselves. Oregon did not bring its whole team. The energy was just like a little different. I know that might sound like corny and that wasn't the reason, like in, like in its entirety, why, why I picked Ohio State to win that game, but I Do think he can kind of pick up on like is, are these guys tight? Are these guys excited? Are these guys liking some of their matchups? That kind of stuff. Like you're not going to get full on game plans from people. But I do think if you can read between the lines a little bit, read some body language, there is something to learn from, from a media day setting.
- [09:21]
Doug Lamoriz
I, I don't know the Miami players or the Miami team at all. Right.
- [09:24]
Bill Landis
No, that's not what our, it's not.
- [09:26]
Doug Lamoriz
What our job is. We're not around those guys. I am curious if Miami potentially, if their defensive linemen in particular will put off any vibes of we're going to kick these guys butts.
- [09:38]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [09:39]
Doug Lamoriz
And then how that would translate because I think justifiably Miami defensive defensive line in particular deserve a lot of respect. But I wonder could that swing to the point where we get into any kind of not disrespect, lack of respect for Austin Saravelt and Luke Montgomery and Philip Daniels and Carson Hensman and probably Gabe Van Sickle and then like what that would mean because there are times and again I would, I felt like I didn't pick on it up as well as some other people did. But I was at the semi final last year for Notre Dame and Penn State where people thought that Marcus Freeman felt disrespected by James Franklin in the, in the, the pregame news conference the day before. And then it turns out that reporting was that he went back and told his team that he felt like he, he, they did get disrespected and he told Notre Dame to go we're going to go kick Penn State's butt. And like it mattered. How could coaches news conference matter? But it did. I think it affected the football. And do you think there's an opening for that, like to affect the football? If the, if that matchup discussion swings too far towards the Miami defensive line.
- [10:45]
Bill Landis
I think there's an opening for it. I think I'd be surprised if it happened. There was a little bit of that with the a Miami game. One of the offensive linemen from Texas A M, I can't remember exactly what he said but, but said something to the effect of like, yeah, these guys are good but we'll have something for them, that kind of thing. And there was not much said by Miami in the lead up to the game, but it was said after the game like they heard it and they used that as some motivation. So I, I think maybe because that happened it makes it less likely that it's going to happen this time around. I also think, like, just being around Ohio State's guys, you know, Austin Serval's not going to go out there and say, like, I got something for Ruben Bane. Right. Going to say anything. Phil Daniels. Phil Daniels. Maybe. Maybe. I mean, I'm not. I'm not saying they're incapable of it, but I do think I'd be surprised if it happened.
- [11:31]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay, we're waiting the injury report. I want to talk about Kyle Whittingham. Kyle Whittingham had his introductory news conference as the Michigan head coach in Orlando, where Michigan is playing Texas in the Snack of Choice Bowl. It used to be the Citrus Bowl. Right. But I don't know what a snack it is now.
- [11:48]
Bill Landis
I think it is the Citrus bowl. Still. Cheese it, cheez it, Citrus Bowl.
- [11:52]
Doug Lamoriz
So can I tell you this? I should save it for whatcha. But my daughter, we're pretty sure, had never eaten a Pop Tart. She watched those two Pop Tarts get murdered after the BYU Georgia Tech game. And my wife went to the store and bought three boxes of Pop Tarts.
- [12:09]
Bill Landis
Three different flavors.
- [12:10]
Doug Lamoriz
Three different flavors. There were like 23 different flavors at the store.
- [12:13]
Bill Landis
There are a lot. Yeah.
- [12:14]
Doug Lamoriz
And. And she ate a Pop Tart for the first time. And it's one of those where I. I think we've actually jumped shark with the Pop Tart conversation around the Pop Tart Bowl. I feel like half the national media is just unpaid spokespeople unless they're paid. But it's just. It's such a giant commercial for Pop Tarts, but it worked.
- [12:32]
Bill Landis
Pop Tart Bowl, I am for sale, just by the way, if you're actually.
- [12:36]
Doug Lamoriz
Paying people, just like, like, three boxes of Pop Tarts would be enough. But, like, it's one of the. So it's like sometimes I think like, these bull sponsorships. What are we doing? But it's like they sold three boxes of Pop Tarts. It struck me. I can very. I have a terrible memory. I can really remember in 2015 when we. No, 2014.
- [13:00]
Bill Landis
We were in New Orleans.
- [13:03]
Doug Lamoriz
End of the 2014 season, we were in New Orleans for Ohio State, Alabama. And it was announced that Michigan was hiring Jim Harbaugh while we were there. And here we are in this gigantic situation. Ohio State's playing in a semifinal against Alabama. Oh, my. It's Urban Meyer versus Nick Saban. And for a day, the story that. That we were@cleveland.com then that we were writing about, that everybody was talking about, was the arrival of Jim Harbaugh into the Ohio State Michigan rivalry. And that it was such a stark difference of here. Urban Meyer had just been. Been there a few years. It was. He was in his third year at Ohio State and they're in the playoff and Michigan is to the point where they had to fire their coach and now they had to bring this guy in to come save him. But it was like, holy moly. We have reset the Ohio State Michigan rivalry while the Buckeyes are getting ready to play in the playoff. This isn't that because Kyle Whittingham is not the favored son of Michigan who is coming back to rescue the program. But it is a program that needs rescuing. And it's not entirely. Not that. And as we sit here, Bill, on a day that Ohio State is preparing to play in the College Football playoff in three days, we are in a different city because the preparations are underway just like we were in New Orleans then. And Michigan is introducing a coach. It's kind of the same.
- [14:30]
Bill Landis
Well, it's quite.
- [14:32]
Doug Lamoriz
It's. Is it 65% of that Michigan and shambles. A different kind of shambles. Then it was. It was football field, only Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoc weren't winning. But Brady Hoch was like a Michigan man. Brady Oak. There was none of that other stuff. But we need to win more. Here comes Jim Harbaugh now. It's all the other stuff. They're investigating themselves. There's all. But Michigan once again needs rescuing and they are bringing in a very established winning coach to do it while their rival is trying to win a national championship.
- [15:09]
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- [15:20]
Bill Landis
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- [15:24]
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- [15:27]
Bill Landis
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- [15:27]
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- [15:38]
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- [16:09]
Bill Landis
I do think it's probably. Yeah, 60ish. About the same. Like the rivalry is in a different spot, right? Like Michigan. I know lost this year Ohio State won that game, but Michigan, you know, four and one in the last five years in the rivalry. That was not the case when Jim Harbaugh took over. The fact that Kyle Winningham's not a favorite. Like, I, I see the parallels you're drawing, and I do. I do think that Michigan is looking toward Kyle Whittingham as a bit of a savior for very different reasons. But I think there were some different layers to it the last time around because it wasn't. It wasn't Michigan just needing sort of like saving in terms of football success, but like in the. In the rivalry as well. Just like it kind of. Because at that point, urban had won three in a row, right? 12, 13, 14. And I think you could ask yourself, like, when's this thing going to swing back in Michigan's favor? And then no one knew at the time that it was going to take another, what, five years for that to happen. So I don't know. I. It's pretty similar. I don't think I go all the way and say, like, we're. We're sitting in the exact same situation we were 11 years ago, but let me.
- [17:16]
Doug Lamoriz
When do you think Michigan needed saving more?
- [17:19]
Bill Landis
Now?
- [17:20]
Doug Lamoriz
Eleven years ago, when they just were losing football games. I think they were 47 and 42 or something like that in.
- [17:28]
Bill Landis
In the.
- [17:29]
Doug Lamoriz
The previous years under Brady Hook and Rich. Rich. Rich Rodriguez, or now as their. Their honor and their reputation is at stake.
- [17:37]
Bill Landis
I think now. I think it's just a different. It's. I don't know the right way to say it. Right. It's. It's the football, I guess, over the last five years, whatever has been better. But even that comes with an asterisk, right? Like, there's. There's just so much to the success of Michigan football the last couple years, and then now it all sort of gets tainted and they're trying to, like, almost like, wash their hands of it in a way. And I really do think, like, given the timing of everything, that there was an opportunity for Michigan to really kind of crater, not forever, but enough in, like, the near term that it could have been pretty detrimental to the program and it's long and its longevity. So, like, because that felt sort of at stake here, I do think this. This is a situation where it needed to be saved more.
- [18:21]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay, if it's 60 or 65% of when Harbaugh got hired by Michigan, what if we start mixing stuff together? Can we get to. Closer towards 100%? What if we throw in some portion of urban Meyer being hired by Ohio State.
- [18:34]
Health PSA Narrator
Yeah.
- [18:36]
Doug Lamoriz
After a firing, a dismissal of a coach. Again, that was just football stuff. And things that people now would say were, you know, we're not that big a deal compared to other things. This is much more serious off the field stuff. So it's. It's not at all a Sharon Moore, Jim Trestle comparison at all, but a program. And I. I've said a million times, I thought there was going to be a dark cloud over Ohio State for.
- [19:02]
Bill Landis
A little while after that.
- [19:04]
Doug Lamoriz
And Urban Meyer came and he blew that dark cloud away instantaneously. 12, 0 in year one. That it, that it is a program like off the field, that there is stuff happening that needs to be rectified and the winning will help get rid of that. Right. Does Kyle Whittingham to Michigan. Are there any parallels of Urban Meyer to Ohio State?
- [19:26]
Bill Landis
I think there could be. I guess I'd ask you a question. What was the. Because Michigan, I think, is not only viewed as a football program. We need a saving, but an athletic department in disarray. Yeah. Was that the case for Ohio State back then? I wasn't covering it.
- [19:39]
Doug Lamoriz
So I think there people had real questions. And that sort of continued then even after.
- [19:44]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [19:46]
Doug Lamoriz
You know, with, with the bull ban. And they didn't think they were going to get a bull ban. And then they got one. And like, you know, I think with the way that it'd been handled, you know, to the administration that Gordon Gee had said, you know, you're going to fire Jim Treslaw. I just hope he doesn't fire me, to paraphrase. Right. Like that there were other things like sort of out there of like, who. Who's running the show here? What's. What's going on here. And you needed somebody who could settle that.
- [20:10]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I think so. I think in that way this is like. I like the, the black cloud.
- [20:13]
Doug Lamoriz
Right.
- [20:14]
Bill Landis
If you talk about it that way. I do think Ohio State then down. I think Michigan now was staring that down. But I would probably still say the percentage comparison is about the same as the other comparison because like Kyle Whittingham, again, he's not a. He's not returning home. Urban was in many ways returning home. And Urban had two national title rings in his back pocket. So it's not. It's not exactly the same thing in that regard either. But maybe again, and like, to be clear, we're not comparing what Sherry Moore did to what Jim Trestle. We're just saying, like, the results of both of those things. I do kind of think left the football programs in similar positions.
- [20:51]
Health PSA Narrator
Yeah.
- [20:51]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay, let me do more comparisons then. Urban Meyer and Jim Harbaugh. I think, as you noted, they were both prodigal songs.
- [21:01]
Bill Landis
Reports out.
- [21:02]
Doug Lamoriz
Reports out. We go now live to our correspondent Bill Landis with the injury report three days out from the Cotton Bowl.
- [21:09]
Bill Landis
Okay, out for Ohio State, Malik Hartford, Quincy Porter, which is like the big one. I think people were interested in Mason Mags Logan George. Doubtful. Admin Tunkara, who has been on the report all year. Walk on player Tegra Shabola. Doubtful. Not out. Doubtful.
- [21:28]
Doug Lamoriz
Probable.
- [21:29]
Bill Landis
Zay Jones, fresh and receiver Turbo Rogers, freshman running back to Sean Stewart, freshman safety Cody Haddad, freshman safety Devonte Armstrong, deep reserve offensive lineman. And the most interesting one there, Will Smith, defensive tackle.
- [21:43]
Doug Lamoriz
Oh, so that's 50, 50.
- [21:44]
Bill Landis
50, 50. No, probable is 75. That was probable.
- [21:48]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay.
- [21:49]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [21:49]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay. So he's got a little ding probably, but they feel like he'll be okay.
- [21:52]
Bill Landis
I would think if he's on probable now, he's probably gonna play. Okay.
- [21:55]
Doug Lamoriz
Is there anything for Miami that seems of major note?
- [22:00]
Bill Landis
Damari Brown, who is. They, like rotate like four guys through the corner position and he's one of them. So he's out. So I guess I'll have three guys to rotate there. Okay. He's looking like the only one to me who's like a important guy.
- [22:17]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay. Quincy Porter, I think probably on a list of guys if he's there to try to talk to a media day. Sometimes if a guy's injured, then he's not available. I'll be curious to see if he's there to chat with.
- [22:29]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I don't. I don't know what they make Ohio State do or make these teams do for these. I think there's a decent chance he's there. I'm sure he made the trip. He was at the Big Ten championship when he. When he wasn't playing. So I'm sure he's on the trip. I would like to talk to him. Yeah, like what? What's up? How he feels like he could have impacted things the tail end of the season when they were looking for receiver help. And I do think people were interested in the idea of him maybe doing that in the playoff too. So at least for this game, that's not going to happen. Yeah.
- [22:57]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay. Thanks for that report. There have been times this year where the injury report for Ohio State has been the most important thing about the team going into a game that is not the case because two guys who are nowhere near that report are Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith, which is good news for everybody associated with Ohio State. So I'm going to throw out one more comparison here and, and see what you think of it. Urban Meyer, Jim Harbaugh returning home. Kyle Whittingham is not that. But Jim Harbaugh and Urban Meyer were both uniquely qualified that there wasn't somebody else like them in that moment because of their relationship to the universities, because of the way they had won at the highest level. Are we close to that with Kyle Whittingham, that in hiring him, is he the only guy like this that they could have got? A guy who has been a winning head coach at Utah for 21 years, a guy who, you know, you and I, in our, in various incarnations of our college football coverage, we've done things where we talk about the sport from a national perspective. I certainly have had Kyle Whittingham on 10 best coaches in the country.
- [24:06]
Bill Landis
He's been on that list a lot. Yeah.
- [24:08]
Doug Lamoriz
When we've had discussions out like that, is. Is he a one of one uniquely qualified for this situation that if they were looking for a veteran steady hand who sort of is, I think has unimpeachable, you know, off field stuff that this guy's just never had. Never had anything like that. And he's one. Kyle Whittingham's the only guy you could have gotten.
- [24:37]
Bill Landis
Yeah. I think there was a. I don't know if this is true or not, but certainly my opinion there wasn't. There was an error to this situation where I think guys who were in fairly comfortable spots weren't going to go near the Michigan job right now. Yep. And I don't know that there were a lot of people banging down Kyle Woodingham's door despite the fact that he's highly accomplished to bring him in as their, as their next head coach. So I think there were some things there sort of combining at the same time to set this situation up. And like, like there's not. I do think even like in college football. Right. Like this situation. Yes. One of them. But even just sort of maybe like generally, Kyle Woodingham might be one of one.
- [25:15]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah.
- [25:15]
Bill Landis
For like the way that he kind of goes about it, the success that he's had, the longevity that he's had, like it's like maybe him and Kirk Ference I guess would be pretty. But that's about it.
- [25:24]
Doug Lamoriz
But Kirk Ference has had a lot of stuff.
- [25:26]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Doug Lamoriz
Like on and off the field. Right.
- [25:30]
Bill Landis
There's been some off field stuff at Utah. There was like a, some Stuff with their now new head coach who like got fined I think for.
- [25:38]
Doug Lamoriz
Oh yeah, he did.
- [25:39]
Bill Landis
Using I want to say like derogatory language. Yeah. Like in a, in a practice or something. There's not been a lot of stuff. But there's been some stuff. Yeah.
- [25:49]
Doug Lamoriz
I think it's like, you know, we don't, we're not pretending to know these guys, but it's like they needed somebody permission to get somebody who's. Has won at a high level and is pretty clean when it comes to all the other stuff. There's not a guy, there's not a lot of guys like this. Finishing the top 25 nine of 21 years at Utah for the last six full seasons, not the COVID year, double digit wins. So still going strong. 32 years overall at Utah, 21 is the head coach. I, I think some people had wondered in this era, especially as BYU is really ramping things up in the nil world, whether Utah and Kyle Whittingham would compete at the level there. But I think that has a chance to be one of those things where at a place like Michigan, I don't want to say that takes care of itself, but to some level we saw their output that got Bryce Underwood to go there. And if they. It's. It's a blue blood with resources. If a place like Utah, you even, you may have to do more with less sometimes or you may have to push harder to get more. If that was his weakness at this point in his career, the program may fill that hole.
- [27:11]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [27:12]
Doug Lamoriz
And solve that weakness. And then he can do all the other things he does, which is lead a program, coach defense, win and represent the university.
- [27:23]
Bill Landis
I do think a lot of times coaches like Whittingham at places like Utah present as if like, you know, we, we do it differently. We're not an nil driven program. I think there's a quote from. Or maybe it's more of like a program ethos, like you become us, we don't become you kind of thing that Kyle Whittingham has said before. And I just think that's things that coaches say when they know they don't have the money to compete. Right. I don't, I actually don't think it's the way they prefer to do things. I think it's just them kind of getting out in front of financial realities for their program and that shouldn't be a hindrance at Michigan. I think it's a fair question of Kyle Whittingham, like how do you manage that now in a program with elevated expectations and elevated resources. It is, it is new territory for him, but I wouldn't take it for him or really for any other coach. It was like a less resource program. Who says the things that like Kyle Whittingham has said in the past and think like, well, that guy's not going to get it. There's no way he's going to succeed. Because I really do think it's just a reflection of like, we know we don't have the money. So I'm going to spin this in a way that can look good for us. And now that we do have the money, we're going to spend it.
- [28:32]
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- [29:58]
Doug Lamoriz
I have always called out when I thought teams were playing catch a fallen coach, right? Like a guy who had previously succeeded and now he's on his way down and now you think like hey man, we're going to get a coach like this. Bill Belichick, currently 73, was hired when he was 72 at North Carolina. I thought was an example of that. I thought Mack Brown to that at North Carolina was an example of that. I thought Kansas did a couple times with Charlie Weiss and Les Miles back in the day before they figured it out with Lance Leipold Just age of coaches right now. Kurt Kirk Ference is 70. Casey Keeler Temple is 66. He was hired when he was 65 and asking now for another comparison. Kurt Signetti is 64. He was 62 when he was hired by Indiana. Kyle Whittingham is 66. So I, I don't think this is catch a falling coach because he's going up. Right. He's. He's. Utah to Michigan is a step up. It is not a hey, we're Kansas. We can get the former LSU head coach that we could never have gotten otherwise if he hadn't. If he wasn't unsuccessful. And that's why he's available to us. Right.
- [31:04]
Bill Landis
It really like I could absolutely see why somebody would think it was catch a fallen coach. He was forced out of his old job.
- [31:12]
Doug Lamoriz
He was. They. It was time is. So I guess the question is, is he closer to catch a fallen coach or is he closer to Kurt Signetti because he hired at 62? Because I think you could make an argument that obviously. Well, how different in. In terms of the jump the step is James Madison to Indiana compared to Utah to Michigan. That you win somewhere and now you're going up. You're going up a level. Right? Yeah, but Michigan was so far. I mean and Utah would have been ahead of Indiana before Kirk's going to get got to Indiana.
- [31:57]
Bill Landis
Right.
- [31:58]
Doug Lamoriz
Was a good group of five job to one of the worst power conference jobs.
- [32:03]
Bill Landis
A time ago. Utah was the best group of five job.
- [32:06]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah. And now you're going from like a good solid power conference job at Utah to one of the eight, six, four best power conference. Like as we're playing the comparison game with this hire, is there any similarity that could be drawn between Kyle winning him and Kurt Signetti?
- [32:29]
Bill Landis
I don't. I hesitate only because Kurtz Ignati 1 has been so good and 2 like Kurt Signetti won a multiple places across multiple levels. Kyle Whittingham has basically been at one place his entire career and he's done incredibly well there. But you would like to see, I think in a coach's background some demonstration of an ability to do it at more than one place. Yeah. And you don't have that with Whittingham. So I, I don't think I can quite get there with that comparison.
- [32:52]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay, so we now are in a situation where two of the preeminent programs in the Big Ten, two of the big four hired new coaches this offseason. Matt Campbell at Penn State and Kyle Whittingham at Michigan. And neither of those processes was anything that you would expect.
- [33:09]
Bill Landis
No.
- [33:10]
Doug Lamoriz
Penn State's process got off kilter in the hiring and Michigan's got off kilter in the firing. And it feels like there Is almost unanimity on. But Penn State got a great coach and made a great. Wound up making a great hire with Matt Campbell, and Michigan wound up making a great hire with Kyle Whittingham. Are both these programs. Is the Big Ten going to go two for two in these cockamamie situations? And. And it's one of those things that I actually don't think this is. This is analysis, and this is the worst kind of analysis. And this I am now going to participate in my least favorite kind of analysis, which is to acknowledge that you don't like when people say this and then say it. I don't like when people think, like, well, I just don't like this thing because everybody's agreeing on it, right?
- [34:02]
Bill Landis
Oh, yeah.
- [34:03]
Doug Lamoriz
But like, a lot of people, like, I don't know that I've heard anybody really say, I don't know about Matt Campbell in Penn State or I don't know about Kyle Whittingham in Utah and Michigan, but there's a part of me that wonders, like, for, like, for real, are they both gonna just, like, somehow emerge from these situations with fantastic coaches? Because I think, again, there would have been a time. If you go. Go find some list from 2019 of the best coaches in college football. Matt Campbell and Kyle Whittingham are probably both in the top 10.
- [34:30]
Bill Landis
They might be in the top 10 right now. I want to look, actually.
- [34:35]
Doug Lamoriz
And what?
- [34:35]
Bill Landis
And, oh, the Big Ten.
- [34:37]
Doug Lamoriz
We're so lucky. We stumbled into these two guys. And it's going to be awesome at both places. Like, what. What a month for the Big Ten? But also, is that how it's really gonna go?
- [34:51]
Bill Landis
These are Bruce Feldman's rankings. I don't know who that is this year. You know, Bruce, I'm just kidding. He actually might be here.
- [34:57]
Doug Lamoriz
He's not here yet.
- [34:58]
Bill Landis
Let's see, let's see. I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling. I'm scrolling. Campbell 9. Media loves Matt Campbell. Kyle Whittingham, 12. That was coming into this season.
- [35:08]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay, but where? I. I saw a picture there. Where do you have James Franklin?
- [35:11]
Bill Landis
8.
- [35:12]
Doug Lamoriz
8.
- [35:12]
Bill Landis
So that's the thing. Like, that's like, my answer is like, I know James Franklin became a punchline and he couldn't beat Ohio State. He won a whole heck of a lot at Penn State. Like, for Matt Campbell to be better than James Franklin, he has to win a national championship.
- [35:27]
Doug Lamoriz
But. But let me ask you this question. I also think this is. I'm a cliche. I'm done. I'm this probably it for me. It's one of the reasons I don't actually like coaching lists because I feel like sometimes the coaching list is just the best teams list. So sure one hand it wouldn't be fair to say that James Franklin was the 27th best coach in college football when he was winning 10 games every year at Penn State. Right. It wouldn't make sense. If you did it, they hang it up in the locker room and you, you're disrespecting James Franklin. Everybody would rally around him. But when you're at a great program and you're just winning games, I do think it's hard sometimes to figure out how good you really are. Are you, are you really good because you're you, you are a great coach or and I've defended James Franklin a lot over the years or is it like. Well, I don't know. A lot of guys come, you know, I mean a bunch of guys can win 10 games at Penn State when.
- [36:27]
Bill Landis
Sliphole tie on these lists.
- [36:28]
Doug Lamoriz
But I would say I don't think Whittingham or Campbell fit that. I think Whittingham and Campbell both were specific to those universities in a way that they elevated those programs that did not have really any right to be as good as they were for as long as they were. Two decades at Utah for Kyle Whittingham, a decade for Matt Campbell at Iowa State. Iowa State had never been that Matt Campbell made them that Urban obviously had great short term success at Utah. But the Kyle Whittingham was in the top 25 nine out of 21 years. That's not what Utah has a right to be.
- [37:03]
Bill Landis
And I don't think Urban was to scrub away all of Whittingham's success and attributed to her Right.
- [37:09]
Doug Lamoriz
And I don't, I, I think it makes sense what Utah did with Morgan Scally. It was his time. If they were like let's, let's get to him and get Kyle Whittingham out the door. I do not think there is any guarantee that, that Utah retains this type of success. So as I am saying, are we sure that both Matt Campbell and Kyle Whittingham are going to be good? I also do think they have both their reputations were built at places where, where it wasn't automatic and now they are both going to places where it kind of is automatic. So I think that, I think it's very interesting there. So now I've spun that 180 degrees from are we sure they're both going to be good to man, I think there's a chance that both are going.
- [37:47]
Bill Landis
To be really good. I think Campbell's going to be good. Like there's like, will Campbell be good? I think yes. Period. Will he, will he achieve more than James Franklin? I don't know. It's a high bar. I think whatever you think of James Franklin, he's had a pretty high bar for what success is at Penn State. I will say like the Whittingham thing, first blush, I didn't even go there. Right. It was just like they needed an adult to run their football program and they found one and boy, isn't that lucky for Michigan.
- [38:14]
LifeLock Advertiser
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- [38:14]
Bill Landis
And I kind of want to let this play out a little more to see like what the staff looked like because let me tell, like. So it seems like he's gonna hire Jason Beck, who's the current OC at Utah, who was in his first year at Utah. They brought him from New Mexico along with Devin Dampier to totally revamp Utah's offense. Last year they scored 40 plus points. They run the ball as well as anybody. Like it's a pretty exciting offense. And he said in his press conference on Sunday, they're going to be 11 personnel based. They're going to run the ball, but they're going to be spread. They're going to be 11 personnel, which is basically like Bryce Underwood, we're building this offense for you. Which is what he has to say. So if, if he brings Beck as his OC And J. Hill.
- [38:51]
Doug Lamoriz
J. Hill.
- [38:51]
Bill Landis
J. Hill from BYU as defensive coordinator. That kind of puts a different coat of paint on this for me because I almost thought when they. I was like, Kyle Woodingham is going to go as a 66 year old who's not quite ready to give it to Michigan and he's gonna, whatever. Hire Gary Anderson as his defensive coordinator and go back and get Andy Ludwig to be his oc. You had to get rid of a Utah and it's just like you're playing out the string, brother. Yep. But he's not doing that and I. That is making me think about it a little bit differently in terms of like how good maybe this could actually be.
- [39:25]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah. And it's also one of those where he signed a five year contract. He was talking about like he had. He's. He's ready to. Feels like he has a lot of energy again. In his news conference on Sunday, five year contract would take him through 71. Bobby Bowden and Joe Patrona coach into their 80s. You know, like this is another one.
- [39:43]
Bill Landis
You didn't mention, by the way.
- [39:45]
Doug Lamoriz
So this is. The Athletic has a bunch of old coaches.
- [39:47]
Bill Landis
Will Fritz. Yeah, it was 63 when he got hired at Houston last year and he won 10 games this year. Yep. Like, you know, there's, I do think people get caught up in the eight, like the age thing a little too much. It's just sort of like, what trajectory are you on? I think more than anything else. And like, do you have the juice? And frankly, like, Kyle Whittingham at 66 is in better shape than most college football coaches because he works out like a painting. I saw Andy Staples say, like, Kyle Wittingham has worked out like, I don't know, 10,000 days in a row or something like that. So like, I don't. The fact that he's 66 does not really give me any pause. It was just sort of like, okay, that's, that's a fact about Kyle Whittingham. What's the energy like around this hire? Yeah, and like I said, if he's bringing, if he's bringing back and he's bringing Hill, that is different energy than I would have guessed. And there, there are other coaches who at this stage in their career, this stage in their life have been hired, who have plenty of juice, who have plenty left to reinvigorate a program. I don't think that guarantees that Kyle Whittingham will do the same for Michigan. I would just say, like, if you think because he's 66 he can't do that, you're wrong.
- [40:52]
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- [41:47]
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- [42:20]
Doug Lamoriz
So let me ask you this. So let's talk about this. This Kyle Whittingham hire. From an Ohio State perspective, Jim Harbaugh brought a certain style not just to Michigan, but also to the rivalry. And I would say Urban Meyer did the same. I think Urban Meyer, with just who he is, the way he coached, the way he carried himself. I think the moment he got hired, it was very easy for Michigan fans to hate Urban Meyer. Do you think that's fair to say?
- [42:51]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [42:52]
Doug Lamoriz
Jim Harbaugh, same thing. Who he was, the way he carried himself, the things he said. It was very easy for Ohio State fans to hate Jim Harbaugh the moment he was hired. I think Michigan fans thought Jim Trestle.
- [43:05]
Bill Landis
Was.
- [43:07]
Doug Lamoriz
Disingenuous or like kind of a.
- [43:11]
Bill Landis
From the jump or over time.
- [43:13]
Doug Lamoriz
Like, over time, maybe. But also, like, I don't know if they ever bought the act or they thought it was an act. I don't think, like, for Ohio State fans, like, that's like, Jim Trestle doesn't wear sweater vests and then go home and, like, you know, put on a Metallica T shirt. Like, that's actually who he is. But I don't. I think Michigan. I think there was something. And by the way, he got the mic at the first thing and said, and we're gonna go.
- [43:35]
Bill Landis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:38]
Doug Lamoriz
So even though, like, Jim Hart, Jim Trestle would seem like less, there's less to immediately hate, maybe, than like, someone like Urban or someone like Harbaugh, I think maybe Michigan fans still got there pretty quickly.
- [43:50]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [43:51]
Doug Lamoriz
With. With Trestle, How are Ohio State fans gonna hate Kyle Whittingham? Do you think they will, or.
- [44:04]
Health PSA Narrator
Are.
- [44:04]
Doug Lamoriz
We entering a period of the rivalry here? Well, Michigan fans still hate Ryan Day. Right. Michigan fans hate Ryan Day. That's not going anywhere.
- [44:10]
Bill Landis
Michigan fans hate Ryan Day. But I also think Michigan fans are going to take their cue from that coach.
- [44:15]
Doug Lamoriz
Could the temperature be brought down on the hatred aspect of the rivalry? Right. Like, could. Could. Could we see a somewhat significant change in how the teams act toward each other? We understand what's in the hearts of fans and that kind of thing. But Harbaugh ramped it up. Urban ramped it up. Right. Connor Stallions ramped it up. The flag planning ramped it up. Like, there's been a lot of ramping up for a decade here. And maybe this is a little bit of a ramp down.
- [44:48]
Bill Landis
Potentially I think it returns to a place of respect between the head coaches. Certainly, I do think the tenor can be a little different. It doesn't. It doesn't lessen the rivalry. It's just. It's just a. It's just kind of spun a different way. Right. Like where Urban was kicking Michigan's butt, there was still that tension there. Right. And I don't think that's going anywhere. I just think you'll. You'll find it from different places maybe. And I don't think that the. The coaches certainly are not going to do anything to like, ramp up the rhetoric around. Around this game. And Ryan Day has, like, really never done that and went out of his way to make sure he did not do that after. After he won this year. So I think if you take that and then you spin it to this. Well, like, Sharon Moore's gone, Harbaugh's gone. Here is Kyle Whittingham, who I think, like I called Ryan Day statesman after that game. I think in a lot of ways, Kyle Whittingham is that for college football, too. There will be a sense of decorum in this rivalry that maybe hasn't been present primarily on the Michigan side the last couple years.
- [45:50]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah. Kyle Woodingham. Ryan Day met in the Rose bowl after the 2021 season. 2022 season. Utah beating USC gets Ohio State in the playoff. Right. Like, Kyle Whittingham was sort of like.
- [46:04]
Bill Landis
Hey, I think he said, you're welcome, or something like that. Yeah.
- [46:08]
Doug Lamoriz
And the interesting thing here is we're just running through. And Sharon Moore was. It's. It's gonna be very interesting, like, how history does this because it's such a short tenure for Sharon Moore and he really is sort of just, again, it's the fumes. It's the byproduct of Harbaugh. But he was not a born and raised in the rivalry kind of guy. Right. He was. I think it absorbed. Absorbed enough of the Harbaugh stuff. He was crying on the field when Jim Harbaugh was suspended and that kind of thing. Right. That it still felt that way. We definitively now have two head coaches in the rivalry that were not raised in it.
- [46:43]
Bill Landis
I was going to ask you when the last time that happened.
- [46:46]
Doug Lamoriz
So I, like, I don't. I don't know what the answer to that is, but even. And it's one of those things again.
- [46:53]
Bill Landis
Like, because Lloyd Carr was a Schembechler assistant, Right?
- [46:55]
Doug Lamoriz
Yes.
- [46:55]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [46:56]
Doug Lamoriz
Because, you know, in his news conference, I think Kyle Whittingham saying like I was 7 years old and watching Joe Bo Schembeckler. It's like, okay, whatever. I mean, that's. You're trying to find the thing. It's like what was watching Motion Backler when they were seven back then?
- [47:09]
Health PSA Narrator
Right.
- [47:09]
Doug Lamoriz
I mean, it's not. It's just on a tv. It's like, you know, So I think Ryan Day did a little bit more of that when he started. And then he's sort of been able.
- [47:17]
Bill Landis
To be like, I was reading a story about. I was. I can't remember. I was going back and look up. But Ryan Daly told a story about like watching the Ohio State Michigan game with his grandpop or something. It's just like, you don't. You don't have to do that.
- [47:28]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah. It's okay.
- [47:30]
Bill Landis
It's okay that you're from New Hampshire.
- [47:31]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah, it was Utah. Whatever. Like, it's, it's. It's fine. Like, it's. You're from a different place. So I'll be very curious what. And I do think as. As Michigan investigates its own athletic department. And I, I think that that university might be very interested in toning it down.
- [47:50]
Bill Landis
Yeah. Maybe please don't pay attention to us for a little bit.
- [47:53]
Andy Staples
Yeah.
- [47:53]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah.
- [47:54]
Bill Landis
Kind of thing. Or if you do, hopefully it's only for on field football success and nothing else. Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:59]
Doug Lamoriz
But, you know, this is the, The. The last act of the Sharon Moore era at Michigan was his team attempting to defend its home field from a flag plant that never came because they had started that the year before in a situation that led to pepper spray.
- [48:27]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [48:27]
Doug Lamoriz
Right.
- [48:28]
Bill Landis
That.
- [48:30]
Doug Lamoriz
It is an apt metaphor of the last thing Sharon Moore ever did was defend from an attack that never came.
- [48:36]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [48:38]
Doug Lamoriz
And that is not the pose that Michigan wants to be in. And that's not the pose that Kyle Whittingham's gonna.
- [48:44]
Bill Landis
I don't think he will be in. Yeah. And that doesn't mean he's gonna flip the rivalry back.
- [48:47]
Doug Lamoriz
Right.
- [48:48]
Bill Landis
But I just think he'll.
- [48:49]
Andy Staples
Right.
- [48:49]
Bill Landis
He will act differently.
- [48:51]
Doug Lamoriz
I almost wonder like, if he'll repudiate anything, you know, like, like that's not what we're. You know, because I'm sure he's gonna get asked about it. He should. He'll get asked. We'll ask about a Big Ten media days. It's like that. What do you want to do? And I think. I think maybe he can put his stamp on the rivalry by turning down the heat. And I think Ryan Day.
- [49:08]
Bill Landis
Well, he understands that. He understands. I'm not Saying he understands Ohio State, Michigan, but he understands rivalry. That can get deeply personal and. And emotional. Right. With. With the holy war. He's been a part of that for.
- [49:23]
Doug Lamoriz
He's a BYU three decades.
- [49:24]
Bill Landis
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
- [49:26]
Doug Lamoriz
He's. He's.
- [49:26]
Bill Landis
He's born and bred in that. And just because you are in that doesn't mean you'll handle the Ohio State, Michigan 1.
- [49:31]
Doug Lamoriz
Well.
- [49:32]
Bill Landis
But I think he will. I think he will understand, like, the way people feel about it and the way you're supposed to, like, act when you're in it and not necessarily even again, not guaranteeing success and actually on the field. But I do think that will help him.
- [49:46]
Doug Lamoriz
But. But I do think as much as that is, that is a holy war. It's the holy war.
- [49:54]
Bill Landis
I mean, it's a whole different can of worms, to be perfectly honest. It's.
- [49:57]
Doug Lamoriz
It's holy. It's a war. But Kyle Whittingham and Kalani Sataki, who've been coaching against each other in that rivalry for a decade, would hug each other after games.
- [50:11]
Bill Landis
I think there's a lot of respect. Well, they're the former co workers. Was the Utah defensive coordinator before he got to BYU job.
- [50:17]
Doug Lamoriz
Right. So there is. Yeah, he was. Yes, he was. And they both played at byu. And again.
- [50:24]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [50:24]
Doug Lamoriz
So there's a little more of that personal stuff. But that was an example of it being personal. And that's actually. That's like Woody and boy, right? They. You work together, and then you're apart.
- [50:31]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [50:32]
Doug Lamoriz
And now it's like, okay, there's. There's a foundation and a friendship and a respect there.
- [50:36]
Bill Landis
And here are two Urban Meyer disciples.
- [50:41]
Doug Lamoriz
You think, like, Urban's hosting a dinner and Kyle coming over.
- [50:44]
Bill Landis
Summit. A summit down in Florida. Let's talk about the rivalry.
- [50:47]
Doug Lamoriz
But actually, I don't know if Urban hosted a dinner about the rivalry. He would probably, like, try to get them to go out the backyard and wrestle.
- [50:53]
Bill Landis
Right.
- [50:53]
Doug Lamoriz
Like, he doesn't want to take the temperature down.
- [50:56]
Bill Landis
I don't think he wants. I just think he wants it to not be embarrassing.
- [50:59]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah. Pepper spray.
- [51:01]
Bill Landis
Yeah. Doesn't want pepper spray. He doesn't want third base. That kind of stuff. Right.
- [51:07]
Modelo Announcer
Yeah.
- [51:08]
Bill Landis
But I also think he probably knows Ryan Day and Kyle Woodingham well enough that he doesn't. He wouldn't. I don't have fun. Like, he wouldn't need to do that. I think both those guys understand how to comport yourself.
- [51:18]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah. But now he's officially grandpa. Rivalry, rivalry. Which he's gonna.
- [51:22]
Bill Landis
He is the grandfather of The Ohio State Michigan rivalry.
- [51:24]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah.
- [51:25]
Modelo Announcer
Yeah.
- [51:25]
Doug Lamoriz
Both the head coaches are his former coordinators.
- [51:28]
Bill Landis
Yeah.
- [51:28]
Doug Lamoriz
Are you kidding me? Oh, my God. Okay. Yeah.
- [51:32]
Bill Landis
Urban's gonna have.
- [51:32]
Doug Lamoriz
Have plenty to say about that. Okay, so this is Again, this is 11 years ago, we took a day in New Orleans before one of the most important games in Ohio State football history between Ohio State and Alabama to talk about the rivalry because the rivalry had changed. And so 11 years later, we took 45 minutes before 1 of the more important games in Ohio State history is the Buckeyes try to go back to back for the first time ever to talk about something else because the rivalry has been reset. And even when Ohio State is on the precipice of a national championship, you find time to talk about Ohio State Michigan.
- [52:15]
Bill Landis
There's. It always finds its way in.
- [52:17]
Doug Lamoriz
Finds way.
- [52:18]
Bill Landis
It always finds its way in.
- [52:19]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay. We hope the Internet worked. We hope the microphones worked. Who was the producer on this? Was that you or is it me?
- [52:26]
Bill Landis
It depends on whether or not it works.
- [52:27]
Doug Lamoriz
Yeah. Okay, thanks to you guys for letting us hang out with you. We'll have a bunch of content on our substack, Bill and Doug osu.substack.com on this YouTube and podcast feed. And we're just grateful to be in Dallas talking ball and covering the Ohio State Buckeyes. So. So we will speak with you guys soon. For now, from. What's the Hotel Anatoly? What is it?
- [52:48]
Bill Landis
We are in the what? The Westin Las Colinas. Ohio State is at the Hilton.
- [52:56]
Doug Lamoriz
Okay, sorry.
- [52:57]
Bill Landis
Where they typically stay.
- [52:58]
Doug Lamoriz
We're in a. We're in a lobby. We're in a hallway. Actually, we're in a hallway with a backdrop and that proves that we're in Dallas. So for now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lamoriz. That was the Bill and Doug show.
- [53:13]
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- [53:43]
Andy Staples
Hi, I'm Andy Staples from Andy and Ariane three. And another five star quarterback just entered the transfer portal. That's what college football is now a non stop adventure. And we cover it every day at Andy and Ariane 3, whether it's the transfer portal, the college Football playoff, the coaching carousel, you name it. And guess what? It doesn't stop even when the season ends. So join us every day, Monday through Friday. New episodes drop at 3pm wherever you get your podcasts.