Ohio State NFL Combine report: A Caleb Downs-Ezekiel Elliott comparison, Davison Igbinosun and more

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State NFL Combine Report

Episode Theme:
A deep dive into Ohio State’s players at the 2026 NFL Combine—analysis of Davison Igbinosun, Caleb Downs, Lorenzo Styles, and the Buckeye tight ends, with big-picture draft talk (especially about positional value), plus trademark wit and fan-focused perspectives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Coverage at the Combine

• Doug and Bill set up at Radio Row for the Combine, reflecting on access to players and their own roles in providing coverage for Buckeye fans.
• Noted that Thursday's focus was on interviews/discussions with Davison Igbinosun, Lorenzo Styles, Caleb Downs, Will Kacmarek, and Max Clare (00:29).
• Reflected on balance between fun and insightful football talk, aiming to fight "Southern CFB bias" and engage the OSU fanbase.

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2. Davison Igbinosun: The Cornerback’s Draft Stock, Growth, and Legacy

Media Impression & Character

• Both Doug and Bill express admiration for Igbinosun’s presence and candor:

  “We love him like, he's one of our own. Is that too strong?... He’s great.” — Bill (01:55)

• Regret not getting more interview sessions during his Ohio State career.

Draft Range and Athletic Profile (03:03–04:39)

• Projections range from early second (Dane Brugler: #50), to third (#83), to fourth round (#133).
• Doug is keen to see how Igbinosun’s physical measurements and 40 time impact his stock.
• Bill notes that a tall, long, super fast corner can quickly rise on draft boards (“You become a cornerback who shoots up draft boards”).
• Confidence is a positive at corner—"I think a corner, you almost have to be that way." — Bill (05:13)

Penalties: The Narrative & Maturity (07:18–14:20)

• Doug asked Igbinosun directly about his high penalty totals (“most penalized player in the country” 2024). Igbinosun freely admitted NFL teams are grilling him on this.
• Bill emphasizes that Igbinosun takes ownership rather than blaming refs:

  “You better come to the same conclusion when you're in these interviews and have an answer ready for that question. And I think Davison did...” (09:15)

• Data rundown: Only one true outlier penalty year (16 in 2024), far fewer other years; four-year starter with massive snap count (2,801).
• Quote:

  “At Ohio State, the seats are not owned. The rent is due every single day. You have to be doing something to keep your job or... take someone’s job.” — Davison Igbinosun (16:55)
  This spawned their idea for the nickname: “The Landlord”.

Igbinosun’s Team Impact (15:21–22:49)

• Doug notes Igbinosun’s transformational impact on the cornerback room’s culture—raising standards, competition, and toughness.
• It took time to gain acceptance, but ultimately, “going through that situation, me and [Jordan Hancock] became the best of friends...” — quoting Igbinosun.
• Igbinosun’s story of overcoming a stutter: His growth in confidence, both as a player and a communicator, was highlighted as emblematic of his growth at Ohio State (18:34).

Legacy & The “BIA” (Best In America) Room (23:05–28:59)

• Igbinosun is poised to be OSU’s highest-drafted DB since 2020.
• Doug & Bill stress the importance of Igbinosun’s years and attitude as the start of a cornerback-room resurgence (after 5 years with no 1st-2nd round OSU DBs).
• Tim Walton (coach) gets credit for progress; they ponder new potential high picks in the next few years.

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3. Caleb Downs: Superstar Safety—Draft Value, Combine Importance, & The Zeke Elliott Parallels

Combine Appearance & Media Engagement (30:16–32:23)

• Only nine minutes at the podium, then off to national interviews (“Professor Downs,” glasses and all).
• Downs avoided specifics on which teams he’d met (“I’ve met with about a dozen teams and I’m not going to talk about who.” 31:12).
• Doug laments lack of opportunity:

  “I didn’t really get to get in… I really wanted to know [about board-work sessions with teams].” (06:59)

Positional Value Debate & NFL Stock (33:22–44:35)

• Doug draws a direct parallel: Caleb Downs in 2026 = Ezekiel Elliott in 2016 (elite prospect at a position with lower modern NFL value).

  “It was so obvious how good Ezekiel Elliott was… The conversation from an NFL perspective was, what’s the value of the position? ... That’s what I’ve been reminded of all week, a decade later, of Caleb Downs is Ezekiel Elliott.” (34:48)

• Historically, no top-five safeties since 2010 (Eric Berry). Mel Kiper mocks Downs as high as #2.
• Bill and Doug’s take: Downs is possibly the best pure football player in the draft—if you’re just picking the best player, he’s the answer.
• Debate:

  “If you don’t have a quarterback, then you are just... everything’s open, good players mode… Caleb Downs might be the best football player regardless of position in this entire draft.” — Doug (43:27)

• “Are you the best player in this draft?” Downs: “If I step on the football field, I mean, I think I’m the best player.” (43:37)
• Bill: “He might be more cerebral than he is athletic, but that’s OK. He’s versatile... I’d probably bet on him being an All-Pro a couple times.” (36:09–36:59)

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4. Lorenzo Styles, Special Teams Value, & the “Late Growth” Cornerback (45:35–49:35)

• Longer avail than Downs (16 minutes) but less in-depth content.
• Doug: “He’s a fine fella. Was he agitated?” (46:10)
• Notre Dame questions drew notably short answers; transition from WR at ND to DB at OSU only two years ago.
• Bill’s view:

  “I actually think he’s going to be in the NFL for a long time as a special teamer. I just don’t know if his ceiling is anything higher than that.” (46:54)

• Highlights his core special teams value and ability to play nickel or deep safety—a path to an NFL pension by being player #45 on a roster (49:09).

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5. Max Clare & Will Kacmarek: The Tight End Draft Math (49:35–55:27)

• Max Clare: Transfer from Purdue—chose OSU to become more well-rounded, especially as a blocker, and believes he did (50:29).
• Not a great tight end draft class; Max projects as a third-rounder (72nd overall in the consensus mock database, 52:42). Bill thinks he'll go lower, Doug thinks he's more like Jeremy Ruckert (third round).
• Will Kacmarek: OSU’s pure blocking TE—projects as a late pick (253), but both think he’ll rise ("Will Kacmarek will go significantly higher than that" — Doug, 53:16). Bill compares him to Luke Farrell, who carved out a solid NFL career via physicality.
• Big-picture: NFL teams value “do the dirty work” blocking much higher than pure “oversized slot receiver” skills at TE:

  “I know that he blocks his butt off and teams like that a lot… he is a guy who wants to do the dirty work that I think teams will very much appreciate.” — Bill (54:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Igbinosun’s Confidence:

• “I was Davison. I came to compete every single day. I played with a chip on my shoulder... I was just going in there every day trying to prove myself.” (15:45)

The “Landlord” Nickname:

• “Davison Igbignosin, the landlord. Because guess what’s up? The rent is due.” — Doug (17:32)

On Penalties:

• “You watch the tape. You can see what I was doing wrong and you can see the corrections this past season.” — Davison Igbinosun, as relayed by Bill (09:16)

On Downs as a Draft Prospect:

• “It was so obvious how good Ezekiel Elliott was… That’s what I’ve been reminded of all week, a decade later, of Caleb Downs is Ezekiel Elliott.” — Doug (34:48)
• “I’d probably bet on him being an All-Pro a couple times.” — Bill (36:09)

General Podcast Banter:

• “At Ohio State, the seats are not owned. The rent is due every single day.” — Davison Igbinosun (16:55)
• “He could be the most underrated Ohio State player in the last 10 years.” — Doug on Igbinosun (19:25)
• “Everything else [in positional value] is equal.” — Doug on NFL draft philosophy (37:13)
• [On deciding what to give subscribers/free listeners:] “Chief Content Officer Bill Landis…It’s called a tease.” (33:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---|---| | Intro, setup | 00:00–01:16 | | Davison Igbinosun: combine impression, draft projections | 01:38–04:39 | | On Igbinosun’s penalty history and interviews | 07:18–14:20 | | Igbinosun’s impact on team culture, “Landlord” nickname | 15:21–17:51 | | On Igbinosun’s stutter and confidence | 18:34–19:36 | | Igbinosun’s legacy, BIA, and draft history | 23:05–28:59 | | On Caleb Downs at the combine | 30:16–32:23 | | Zeke Elliott comparison, positional value, draft philosophy | 33:22–44:35 | | Interview with Lorenzo Styles, special teams value | 45:47–49:35 | | Max Clare & Will Kacmarek, OSU tight ends analysis | 49:35–55:27 |

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Final Thoughts & Tone

• The episode is characteristically good-humored, accessible, and smart—balancing endless Buckeye insights with running jokes (Minnesota Vikings seat-jacking, Jersey memories, and “who is the Jets quarterback?”).
• Both hosts highlight overlooked truths: the actual on-field value of certain positions, the human growth and character stories behind Buckeye athletes, and the impact of OSU culture on their draft perceptions.
• The show concludes with plans for an upcoming “North vs. South” NFL Draft talent episode, signaling their ongoing crusade for Big Ten and Ohio State respect.

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For Buckeye fans and football heads alike, this episode offers the perfect blend of draft junkie depth, home-team pride, and insider locker-room perspective from two voices who know every inch of the Woody Hayes Athletic Center.

Transcript

[Doug Lamoris]

Foreign. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lamoris and Bill Landis. We made it to radio Row.

[Bill Landis]

We did. Some people cleared out today on Thursday at the combine, and we have stolen the seat of the Minnesota Vikings.

[Doug Lamoris]

Boom. Nailed it.

[Bill Landis]

Skull, as they say. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

So we are here to talk about the Ohio State Buckeyes that we talked to on Thursday. We talked to four on Wednesday, and we would invite you to go find that show on our substack page where we went for an hour and 50 minutes. We talked about Sonny Styles and Ardell Reese and Kate McDonald and Kaden Curry. We talked about how often people wash their jeans for 20 minutes.

[Bill Landis]

Not at the combine on the show. We didn't ask out of the players at the combine.

[Doug Lamoris]

Caleb, how often do you wash your jeans? Again, our show is approaching that slowly. We're not there yet. But then on Thursday, we talked with Davis and Ignosin, Lorenzo Stiles, Caleb Downs, Will Kazmarick, and Max Claire. That's what we're going to talk about here on the free podcast channel and YouTube feed. Thanks to everybody for joining us. These are our only two days in Indy. Landis, do we get our money's worth?

[Bill Landis]

I think so. I actually wasn't certain that we would, but I. I thought this ended up going pretty well. I mean, with the exception of Caleb Downs, we can talk about, like, his. His media session was just, you know, packed, which is not surprising. We did get the opportunity, I think, to ask about just about everything we wanted of the Ohio State guys here. So I think it went well.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. Let's talk about Davison Igbignosian first. We'll talk about all those five guys today. We'll talk about some other stuff, but you and I were both. I don't know, what's the right word? What do we think of. Of Davis and Igbignosin's time with the media on Thursday?

[Bill Landis]

We love him like, he's one of our own. Is that too strong? Is that putting too fine a point on it? He's great.

[Doug Lamoris]

I want to hang out with him more. Eyes like, man, we do. We miss out by not having more interview sessions with him.

[Bill Landis]

Maybe.

[Doug Lamoris]

Maybe.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. We didn't get him a ton. I guess, like, now that I'm thinking about, like, he spoke some, but, like, it wasn't. He wasn't like, a regular. There are some guys we sort of get, like, over and over again. He was not one of them. So, no, it does make me wish they would have gotten him a little more this year.

[Doug Lamoris]

So we're interrupting the show because Ari Wasserman is texting and he is getting ready to go on. Fine. Bomb. Wearing the Big ten trifecta shirt.

[Bill Landis]

Oh my goodness.

[Doug Lamoris]

Please go consume that content again. How we got to the place where Ari is the standing up for northern superiority instead of.

[Bill Landis]

He's a proud son of Ohio.

[Doug Lamoris]

He is a proud.

[Bill Landis]

Don't let him fool you.

[Doug Lamoris]

He is a great. What's the word? Like, like when he's not exactly with you but he's one of your guys.

[Bill Landis]

I don't know.

[Doug Lamoris]

So we're glad to have him. But you know, that should be us.

[Bill Landis]

I thought, I thought something bad. Bad or important happened. No, it's just Ari. Ari's going on Fine Bomb.

[Doug Lamoris]

Okay, Davis. I'm looking at some draft projections. The consensus mock draft, which is like a great database that gather all kinds of drafts and they come to a consensus that's by the name has an 83rd overall which would be a third round pick. CBS Sports I just happened to look at theirs because they did a seven round mock right before the combine. Mike Renner did had him 133rd which would make him a 4th round pick. Dame Brugler from the Athletic who was quoted in an Arvell Reese story that just went up on our Bill and Doug Substack. Bill and Doug osu.substack.com Dane Brugler, great job at the Athletic. He has IGB 50th overall as a player. We which would be a second round pick. It's interesting. It's quite a range. The corners will be measured and work out on Friday, correct?

[Bill Landis]

Correct.

[Doug Lamoris]

I am super interested to see how long IGB's arms are, how tall he is, how thick he is, like what he weighs at and then the way he moves on the field. And I think we might be arriving at something closer to 50 than 133 by the time everybody gets a look at him.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I don't think he'll be a first round rounder. If you, you could have caught me at a time within the last year where I would have told you I thought IGB would be a first rounder, I'm not entirely ruling it out, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't bank on it now, but I do think he has the ability to really help himself here. I think he's going to run really well and he said on Thursday that he plans on doing all of the drills here. If you're long and you're super fast, you become a cornerback who shoots up draft boards.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yes.

[Bill Landis]

And, and I think that could happen for him some of the more like change of direction, like stuff. We'll see how that, how that measures out for him. But we know he's big. Like, that's not changing. It's a matter of like, what, what kind of time does he put out there when he runs the 40 on Friday? And I think he'll interview well too. Like, based off the way that he was, he was talking on Thursday, he seems very confident in his ability, is not afraid to project that. I think that's important at that position. I think some positions you can like, like toe the line a little bit of like this guy might be a little too cocky, but I think a corner, you almost have to be that way.

[Doug Lamoris]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

Because of the nature of the position. So I think that plays for him and it will play for him as he continues to talk to teams. So he has not been lumped in at all with the, the guys we were talking about on Wednesday on the subsection or these guys that are going to go in the first round or even in, you know, the first two rounds. But I, I think he could play himself into a spot where he is a second round pick.

[Doug Lamoris]

You don't want cocky guards, right?

[Bill Landis]

Cocky guards? No. You don't want to cut. Yeah, no. Like, who's, you're a guard, relax. Right? Like that kind of thing. Yeah, but corner. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

All day, but very confident in himself. And the thing I, I did ask him about this and this is one of those again, I think there's a couple things. So the one thing about Caleb Downs, we'll talk to him a little bit. They cut his media session off after like nine minutes because he had to go sit with rich Eisen for 20 minutes. And then like, do ever, like the, when you're the super high profile guy, they need to take you to like every rights holder and everybody gets it. And so then the, the Bill and Doug media, just the simple folk, we get less time. Yeah, like, I didn't really get to get in. I was at. You were Lorenzo Styles. I was at Caleb. I didn't even get a question into Caleb. I didn't get to like, get in. But like, what I want to know is like, when we're here especially, it's different for us. The NFL is getting to meet these Ohio State players for the first time. We're asking the questions in a new environment. So then I want to ask questions that relate to the environment. So what I wanted to ask Caleb Downs about was like what's it like getting on the board with these teams? Because we've talked about. I've talked about him as a coach on the field, how smart he is, the way he and Matt Patricia talk ball. Like, I wanted to know, like, how are your sessions where they're asking you about installs and you're breaking down ball and, like, coverages and that kind of thing. Right. Like, what's it been like? Because that's not what he does at Ohio State. And I think. I didn't get a chance to ask it. I really wanted to know.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

Caleb, take me through 30 seconds of what your meetings on the board have been like with these teams.

[Bill Landis]

You were pretty far back. I was, yeah. But no, it was like, it wasn't your fault, just the nature of the beast here.

[Doug Lamoris]

I've got a. I'm out of practice. I gotta be. I'm too nice. Sort of what it says about me. Doug, you're too nice.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that's true. It's the first thing people say.

[Doug Lamoris]

Davidson, I think Bignosum. What I wanted to. So I asked him about the penalties. And that was the number one story with Davison Igbosan in his Ohio State career. All the penalties he had in 2024, most.

[Bill Landis]

Most penalized player in the country cut

[Doug Lamoris]

them way back in 2025. But I asked him, like, our NFL teams asking you about the penalties? And he said, oh, yeah, they are.

[Bill Landis]

He kind of laughed. He kind of laughed. Yeah. He's like, yeah, yeah, they're. They're asking me about it.

[Doug Lamoris]

But then his explanation was kind of the explanation he had given to us along the way. But, like, it's interesting to me that it's like, this is probably the number one black mark on his resume. They are asking him about it and he then, I think is explaining it in a way that I like. If. If you're looking like a 133, ask, I might be a fourth rounder. And maybe you look at some of that stuff. But then you see his improvement. And he talked about the progress he made this past year, how he did it, how he went about it, the mistakes he knew he was making while doing it. I think that can make him more of a 50 because you look at the thing. It's like, I don't. Is he going to get grabby in the NFL? Of course they're asking, but I'm not sure that he will.

[Bill Landis]

I don't. I don't know that he will think about that. That's interesting to me is. I think There are maybe two ways you can go about that if you're Davidosin, right? You can do what he said to us, which we'll get to in a second, or you can say like, well, I got a bad whistle. Like, I wasn't. I wasn't officiated properly. I'm a big. I'm a big corner. They're not used to seeing me. They don't know how to call it when I'm out there playing. He didn't say that. Because the truth about it is, like, they watch the tape too, these NFL teams, right? You can conjure any excuse you'd like for why you were the most penalized player. All they have to do is watch it and they will come to their own conclusion for why you were the most penalized player. So you better come to the same conclusion when you're in these interviews and have an answer ready for that question. And I think Davidson, Davidson did come to the same conclusion, which is

[Doug Lamoris]

about

[Bill Landis]

being like, more patient at the top of routes, right? Like, like he's not in bad position. He's not getting beat in a foot race. He's where he's supposed to be, but at the, at the time when the ball is coming, he still just gets a little antsy and gets a little handsy and was just too physical. And this past season, again, played with great positioning and was a little less anxious, I think, when those moments arose and he cut down on the penalties. And I think anybody who's listening to this or watching this, who has watched Davis in the last two years, I think you'd agree with that assessment too. So that's what he's saying to NFL teams. And I think the last thing he said was like, watch the tape. You can see what I was doing wrong and you can see the corrections this past season. And I think NFL teams will love that because he's not going in there, whatever, making excuses or acting like it was anything outside of his control, that one made it happen and then two got it corrected.

[Doug Lamoris]

He said he explained the things like that he did to do it. Like, everyone knows, like Tim Walton was taping pot holders to his hands or whatever, right? So that he couldn't physically grab. He did talk about that top of the round stuff. I think it is the differentiation of now when you're getting into the NFL, you are a bigger corner, you're a physical corner, and you're going to be dealing with some of these. These incredibly, they're the best athletes, among the best athletes on the planet. Is NFL receivers. They're their speed, their shiftiness, their change of direction. And if you feel like the only way that you can stay with these guys when they do change direction is to grab them, then you're going to be a fifth rounder.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

If you have the physical ability to stay with them. And the reason you were grabbing them is because you were doubting yourself and you were thinking, I can't stay with them, so I'm going to grab them. But now in 2025 you proved you can stay with them and can now you do it with a better class of player with NFL guys instead of college guys. I think that is the question for him that NFL teams have to decide is it something that he's over or is it something that might come back and he's going to get grabby again in the league if he is big and rangy but maybe a step slower than the guys is trying to cover

[Bill Landis]

and I actually don't know. Do you. You don't have his, his pff. Page up to you. I don't think he was like super highly penalized at Ole Miss in his freshman season there. So it could be for him that his, his 2024 season where he was again the most penalized defensive player in the country is an outlier and maybe that, maybe that'll help him. I don't know. I do. It's. You are projecting because the other part of it, like as much as I said, like he's not out there saying whatever, he got a bad whistle. That is a factor. So I think NFL teams have to ask himself like, well, well, was he playing better with better technique or was he officiated differently?

[Doug Lamoris]

So.

[Bill Landis]

And that's can be a little hard to parse through at times.

[Doug Lamoris]

I did think Ohio State corners were still a little grabby this year and sometimes they didn't grab them. Yeah, I thought they were grabby on running with guys on in straight lines and they weren't grabby when the ball's coming and they weren't grabby change of directions when a guy's breaking off a route.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

You're not grabbing him as he's going away from you. If you're, if you're tugging on him because you're physical while you're running with him, I think they're much more tolerable of that. But, but that's.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, but. And that like that's like the art of playing corner I think right there. So like that. That happens like it's only. It only happens at Ohio State. But I, it's a little, I think it can be a tricky conversation for teams like you have to, I don't know, have some conviction in believing what you're seeing because he did improve on it last year.

[Doug Lamoris]

Penalties three as a true freshman at Ole Miss, six his first year at Ohio State in 2023. 16 in 2024, five in 2025.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. So four years body of work and only one super high penalty year. I think teams can get over that.

[Doug Lamoris]

And one of those like again there's, it's such a difference between some of these guys. We have Kaden McDonald and Arbel Reese who both played fewer than 1,000 defensive snaps in their college careers because they were one year starters at Ohio State and are here at the combine after three years in college. Davison McNoson's four years in college, but he's a four year starter. One at Ole Miss, three at Ohio State. He played 2, 801 career defensive snaps in Power 4 college football. That's a lot if he has, if he had 16 penalties the one year when he played 810 snaps. Like he is so much other film to show that it does not have to define him.

[Bill Landis]

I, I, now that I'm seeing these numbers, I, maybe it won't. It was, it was all he was asked about. Somebody Dan Hope said of eleven warriors said that there was a reporter who's not on the Ohio State beat who was there listening to Davidson talk and was like getting angry that Davison was like saying like yeah, I had a problem but now I'm getting better at it with the penalties and like I think I'm one of the better corners and just like projecting a lot of confidence and was mad that he was saying that because he had so many penalties in 2024. I don't think that's the way the NFL will react to him. It's the way that one reporter who was here who apparently wasn't buying it. But I do think I whether it's laying it out the way we just laid it out with his career kind of standard of penalties or how he explained to us anyway how he's talking to teams about it, I think he'll be okay.

[Doug Lamoris]

We have, we mentioned this today. We have reached the point now in our politics that on both sides of the aisle we've had it with a president from both parties where you get heckled at the state of the Union. Right?

[Bill Landis]

Yes.

[Doug Lamoris]

And we were asking if we should do that at NFL combine interviews. So like if David Sidney was Like, giving a very mature, reasonable answer about, like, and this is how I overcame my penalty issues. And the guy was, like, not buying it. Like, should we get there? Is that where we. Is that where we want to be?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, but I think you have to

[Doug Lamoris]

own it as NFL.

[Bill Landis]

This person was, like, doing it under their breath in a way, in a way that wasn't noticeable from Davison.

[Doug Lamoris]

And then Dan Hope was like, what's your problem?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, what's up, bro? Yeah, get away from me.

[Doug Lamoris]

So I think the two main things were the question that has, you know, it's the question about David Sinkmanos, and, like, we got away from it in 2025, but now it's back because it matters in this context. So I didn't, like, feel bad being like, oh, sorry, I have to ask you about this, because they're asking him about it.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

But then the other thing is, what became one of the main repeated things of this Ohio State season is Ryan Day talking about how important Davis and Igbos was in raising the level, setting the standard, establishing an attitude in the cornerback room. And you. And I asked him about that.

[Bill Landis]

Great answers. Can I read some quotes?

[Doug Lamoris]

Oh, my God, you're so prepared to read quotes.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I am gonna heckle you for reading quotes. Let me close this. The window that has Ari's picture in it. And then. So you asked him, you just said, basically, Ryan Day said this about you. How did you do it? And he said, I went in there and I was Davison. I came to compete every single day. I played with a chip on my shoulder. I played with a passion. I was just going in there every day trying to prove myself. I followed up on that and said, when you do that, can that create friction? How did. How do guys respond to it? Or were they like, what's up with this guy? Or did they follow your lead right away? And he said, of course there's going to be friction when you walk into a room like that. Denzel Burke was a starter, but there was no solidified starter at the other spot. It was either going to be me or Jordan Hancock. And me and Jordan Hancock were starting to go at it because we both wanted the spot. Going through that situation, me and Jordan became the best of friends. And then he said, walking into a room with a situation like that, it just raises everybody else. When you see someone come in and he wants your job, you're going to do everything it takes to keep your job. And there's one more quote I want to read, because I don't Know, if this is a thing that like all athletes say, and maybe this is something that has been repeated in every team room across every sport in the country, but I thought it was badass. Davis. Nick Benosin said, at Ohio State, the seats are not owned. The seats you're sitting in, the rent is due every single day. You have to be doing something to keep your job or you have to be doing something to take someone's job. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

You know, be a, you know, be a good. Can we do this? You know how I'm always so interested in making nicknames for guys because, like, back in the old days, sports writers. Old time and sports writers always got to do nicknames.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Like hop along. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

It might be too late, but maybe I can send it to Davis and Ignosin on social media. Davison Igbignosin, the landlord.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, God, that's great.

[Doug Lamoris]

Because guess what's up? The rest due.

[Bill Landis]

The rent is due.

[Doug Lamoris]

When he's covering you, the rent is due. That's just another pass breakup by the landlord. You're not going to be able to throw on Davis. Anybody like that.

[Bill Landis]

I love it. He might. I think he'd love that too. Can we find him? We gotta find him before we leave.

[Doug Lamoris]

We like Davison Ignosan because I. And so I. This, this is part of his story and it's one of those. I don't know that anybody ever did like a sit down interview with Davidson in his time at Ohio State about this, but he does have some degree of a stutter. And you said you heard him. I didn't know this. Maybe we should have dug this out. We're covering Ohio for the last three years. When he was a freshman at Ole Miss. You said you found a podcast where he was talking about this.

[Bill Landis]

Yes, I think it was part of an nil deal. He did a, a podcast, I believe, with like someone maybe on the Ole Miss beat that was sponsored by whatever. And he said, like, part of doing that podcast was to help him get more comfortable with his stutter and speaking in front of people and speaking more confidently. And I think even if you watch that video from four years ago and then watch him over his time at Ohio State, you can see him speaking much more confidently. And even, even today, like, it's still there, like, whatever it happens. But he certainly has powered through it. And one of the things he said, like, like, I think it has helped him become like, the player that he is. He said like, like, I get to deal with some stuff in my life and like, it's not fun, but I deal with it and I get the job done. It's like, okay, great. So it's just like part of what he is and who he is and hasn't stopped him from getting to this point where he's at right now where he's about to get drafted into the NFL.

[Doug Lamoris]

And I think you, you said that he believes that the more confident he is feeling when he speaks, the less prevalent.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, yeah. Which I've heard before. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting.

[Doug Lamoris]

And anyway, it was just like, I think, like he was. I think you could tell we are not pretending to be Davis. Well, I'm pretending to be his best friend. We're not pretending. I'm giving nicknames. We watched him. We watched him and we asked him questions, but he, I think, was projecting that he feels good about himself. He feels good about where he is, he feels good about what he's going to do with the combine. He feels good about the way he's talking to NFL teams. He feels good about what he's put on film. And. And I think he feels good about the point where he is in his life and everything he did at Ohio State and that he's a four year power four starter. He's a three year Ohio State starter. I think he is, again, we'll do it maybe this offseason, the most underrated Ohio State players in the last 10 years. I think he's very high on that list. But I think that is part of. Because when you said that to me, I didn't know that. I never listened to that podcast. You had said that. He said that before. We got him at the podium and then you could just see him again. He did it a couple times, but, like, he was just. He projected like, I'm happy with where I am. And then when you thought about it in the context of, oh, this is the guy that Ryan Day was saying this about all year. And it was just like, I get why Ryan Day was saying that, because this guy is like projecting that out to the world right now. And I can envision him projecting that in a meeting room where he's like happy and confident and he's sitting up straight and he's also like, hey, I'm gonna take your job.

[Bill Landis]

I do think Ryan Day likes cocky, right? Like a little swagger. Yeah, a little swagger.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, yeah. And back it up. Then I played like, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this isn't. And perhaps this is the headline of this show. We're not sure. But. But it's it's like hot take land, but also like, it's not so outrageous that you couldn't maybe say it. And I, I theorize this to you. Is it possible that the Ohio State player the Buckeyes will miss most in 2026 is Davis and Igbignosa in a

[Bill Landis]

very, in a specific way? Yeah, I think so. Like, he's not, he's not the most talented, right? That's Caleb Down, Sonny Styles, Arvel Reese, Carnell Tate on the other side of the ball. But you got to have tone setters, right? You got to have guys who are going to kind of set the standard for work ethic and attitude, I think, in their room. And especially when you think about corner right, like pretty, like Jermaine Matthews is there. He's, he's very confident in himself, but other than him, like, it's a pretty young room. So actually, I think there's probably a lot of pressure on Jermaine to pick, pick it up in this specific regard. But yeah, I, if you want to talk more about like the emotional component of things. I do, I do think he's a guy that they could miss quite a bit, if not the most. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

And it just like trying to figure out again, like, well, if probably Jermaine's outside and Devin Sanchez is outside and then Earl Littles in the slot. But like, if something would happen or what, you know, like that like Davison was such a kind of came out of nowhere, just arrives from Ole Miss and then just locks down an outside starting spot for three years and was kind of like, again, like, man, that

[Bill Landis]

was like they didn't have to worry about that.

[Doug Lamoris]

And like, that's kind of like a wonderful thing. Again, he's not that he's not the best player, but he is a rock solid starter, no doubt about it. For three years, like, nobody was like, I wonder what they're gonna do there. And that's valuable.

[Bill Landis]

It is valuable. They have added a corner transfer who was a freshman. He didn't start, but he kind of came out of nowhere. And I was going to be at Ohio State for three years. Maybe Dominic Kelly can be the next Davis. Nick Winos, no pressure speaking into existence

[Doug Lamoris]

because the other thing that happened, and this is from a draft perspective, is we talked about this to some degree on the Sub Stack show on Wednesday. Again, go find it, Bill and Doug osu.substack.com the idea of what Sunny Styles and Arvell Reese are laying down right now have laid down in this early era of James Laurinaitis coaching Ohio State linebackers and how valuable that can be. And we talked about it in comparison to what Brian Hartline did in the receiver room and how Chris Olave and Garrett Wilson were so important to that. Just in talking about rooms. Like there was once upon a time where the Ohio State cornerback room was thought of in the same way as the receiver room. And Ohio State hasn't had a first round draft pick at quarter corner in six years.

[Bill Landis]

It's in that long.

[Doug Lamoris]

The last was in 2020. The last five drafts. Let me see if I can do this. 21, 22, 23, 24, 25. That's five. They've only had three corners taken and they all went in the fifth round. Sean Wade and 20. And now remember what was the thing we're doing the other day when I was like, oh yeah, Kurt Signetti needs to beat Ohio State. And you were like, what is wrong with you? You hit me in the head with a microphone. I'm hoping like I'm always like on the alert now. Like, am I missing something obvious?

[Bill Landis]

But I don't because we did. We were also on the Wednesday show. We were running through Ohio State's linebackers have been drafted in the first round and just forgot Bobby Carpenter.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, and then Bobby Carpenter messaged us. No, he didn't, but somebody else did. Thank you for telling us. Don't tell Bobby. Sean Wade, fifth round in 2021. And then Denzel Burke and Jordan Hancock, fifth round last year.

[Bill Landis]

That sounds right.

[Doug Lamoris]

So. And then you think about. So in the last 12 years, I countless sort of like Bradley Roby in 2014 as sort of the beginning of that. Because it's like, it's a little bit. Was like sort of started restarted with Urban Meyer and Kerry Combs in that era. Right. So the last 12 drafts there have been 12 corners picked. Seven in the first round, two in the fourth round and three in the fifth round. But again, no first rounders in the last five drafts. And so Davison Igbignosan almost certainly will be Ohio State's highest drafted cornerback since 2020 because I think he will go higher than the fifth round.

[Bill Landis]

I think he will too. I think he. I'm. I would guess that he's a day two pick. Maybe he's like day two.

[Doug Lamoris]

So we think we're going to ring the bell. We used to do that on, on Buckeye Talk where we would do it, us two of us and Ari, we would sit, we. I still have the bell. We would have a bell on a Table and we would like find a range where we think an Ohio State guy would be drafted. And then we would say like number two, the jets, number three, the whatever. Number four. Ding. I'll take Caleb Downs at number four. Right. And so we're going to do that. So we'll do it. We'll put our money where our mouth is. And then everybody says before the draft, where do you actually think these Ohio State guys will be drafted? But you just think about this. I like, I think we're probably both in agreement. Higher than round five. First round picks. Jeff Okuda and Damon Arnett in 2020, Denzel Ward in 2018, Marshawn Lattimore and Gary on Conley in 2017, Eli Apple in 2016, Bradley Roby in 2014. Like, that feels like kind of a long time ago. He is not going to be a first round pick. But could we look back to some degree and say that Davis and Igbos and everything we just said about him, like restarted Ohio State's NFL draft cornerback legacy or, or something?

[Bill Landis]

I think so. Yeah. We, because we've had the, the BIA conversation, right? They lost it. What if they, they kept calling themselves that? They weren't that for a while. Denzel Burke, I think is, was, is critical in bringing that back. But then he only ends up being a 5th round pick and it's not, it's not merely about draft stock but like it kind of is. Like the BIA thing is like, look at all the first round draft picks, right? So yes, I think it's possible we can look back at Davidson and kind of pinpoint him now probably more like a second, third, fourth round pick. Like that's where it restarted. Because you think of what's coming down the like, and I don't know what dream Matthews is going to be, but at least by recruiting pedigree, right? Like there's Devin Sanchez coming, the two guys that just signed in this, this 2025 recruiting class, Jay Timmons and Jordan Thomas. Jordan Thomas, thank you. 2026 recruiting class, I think, I think have that kind of upside too. So. Yeah, and Tim Walton obviously is credited with that too. But yeah, it's. I think it could be back on the upswing and if and when that happens, a couple years from now, I think we will look back at this draft and say like it kind of

[Doug Lamoris]

started with Davidson and as we talk here, like we're at the combine, it's just a different conversation. Like the primary conversation for Ohio State football and Ohio State fans is what you do on the field as an Ohio State Buckeye, that helps winning. So, like, that's like, Denzel Burke did a lot of that, right? And then, like, by. At the end, you know, he saved the cornerback room as a true freshman, right? Like, Denzel Burke was very important to Ohio State winning games. And then just, like, the way his career kind of unfolded. I mean, like, if he probably. If he plays his career in reverse, he might be a higher draft pick, right? But now when we're talking about him, there's. I mean, there's two. Two fair ways. What do you do at Ohio State to help the winning, but then also, what are you doing? And we are a place that produces talent, and it matters because they put all the pictures up everywhere in the building. They put all the helmets up like they want to produce high NFL draft picks. And so that's like. It's a secondary component of this secondary discussion, but it still matters to everybody. And that's where, like, Davidson already, I think, laid it down in the room. And, like, it's gonna. I think he's gonna lay it down in the draft.

[Bill Landis]

So, yeah, I think it was.

[Doug Lamoris]

Let's see what he is. We're recording this Thursday. Guys have been measured. The defensive linemen and linebackers, they took their arms and they put a tape measure on it, and they say, how long? And then.

[Bill Landis]

But Katie McDonald, very long arms, long.

[Doug Lamoris]

So they're working out. So we don't. We're not. If something happens where, like, I don't know what. Arvell Reese.

[Bill Landis]

Arvel Reese and Sunny Styles are going to run their 40s after we're done recording.

[Doug Lamoris]

That's what I'm trying to say. So, like, if you're asking, like, waiting for us to talk about that, we're not. We're gonna do more stuff. I think we're, you know, we'll. We'll talk about it at some point. We have a lot. A long time before the draft. But. But Longarm Kate McDonald caught your. Caught your eye.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. His measurables, like, in terms of arm length and wingspan were, like, not exactly the same, but also quite close to Arval Reese's, which really surprised me. Katie McDonald, who's 6:2 and RV Reese, is 6:4 and play very different positions. It just sort of was like, oh, that's why Katie McDonald was very good. Yeah, he's a little undersized, sure. But he's got the wingspan and arm length of a guy who's much taller than him. And I bet that created some problems for offensive lineman yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

Let's talk about Caleb Downs.

[Bill Landis]

He's good.

[Doug Lamoris]

They. They cut short nine minutes at the podium. Cut it short. He was sort of in his. I'm smart.

[Bill Landis]

He had his glasses on. Professor. Professor Downs.

[Doug Lamoris]

He was Professor Downs, but, like, kind of professor. But it's like Professor Downs, who's saving his good stuff for his own podcast. Caleb, we know you could do better than this, but you're saving it for your own podcast.

[Bill Landis]

So, like, don't you respect it, though?

[Doug Lamoris]

I. I mean, I do respect it, but I said he's like, we're simultaneously interviewing him and he's a competitor. So, like, I get it.

[Bill Landis]

It's like, I guess.

[Doug Lamoris]

I guess you put your brain and

[Bill Landis]

body on the line. You don't have to give us free answers.

[Doug Lamoris]

You can save it for your brother. But I didn't learn a ton about Caleb Downs. The one thing he did that we found from an NFL combine perspective. Funny, is that many NFL reporters here, because they are covering a certain team. Ask players, did you talk to this team? Did you have a meeting with this team? And Caleb Downs just, like, made it very clear from the start. I've had. He said, I met with about a dozen teams and I'm not going to talk about who they were. And I think, like, 14 NFL reporters fainted.

[Bill Landis]

Why am I here? Why do I exist if this player won't tell me whether or not he met with the team that I cover formally or informally?

[Doug Lamoris]

So, I mean, but it's one of them. There's. There's headlines out there right now. I saw. It's like I was Googling Davis. First headline that popped up was like, david Gnosa meets with New York Jets. It's like. And jets fans are like, oh, cool. I'm glad to have that information. So it's just part of combine, but it was like, we didn't learn a ton. I was curious again about, like, what. Maybe what Caleb is showing off. But I. I do think will write about Caleb. I think we're down to. I'm not sure there's much mystery with Caleb, and I don't. I'm curious. Like, on the list of things, I feel like what Caleb does with his measurables won't matter as much because you kind of know what he is and it's.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Did he say whether or not he's going to do drills?

[Doug Lamoris]

No. He didn't even get it in nine minutes. He didn't get asked.

[Bill Landis]

Okay.

[Doug Lamoris]

He might have said it on the Rich Eisen show for his 17 minute interview.

[Bill Landis]

Let's check it out. Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

But, like, do you. How important do you think the combine is for Caleb Downs?

[Bill Landis]

Not very well for the interview portion of it, I guess. I guess important, but like, the on field stuff, I'm not sure. Unless, like, they're. They're. Daniel Jeremiah thinks he's like, not the most athletic guy in the world. Right?

[Doug Lamoris]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

And I don't know how prevalent that thought is, but if that thought exists in some places, I suppose there are things Caleb could do to dispel that notion or not by doing some of the stuff on the field on Friday, but I don't think it's going to matter a ton. I think he's like, pretty locked in. Is like, this guy's going to be a top 12 pick.

[Doug Lamoris]

So I don't want to give. It's hard thing. We people pay for our substack and we do shows on our sub stack behind that paywall, but we also do these free shows because we're glad to be out here with the people. Right. I always wonder sometimes, like, if I'm going to write something, should I say it on the free show?

[Bill Landis]

Sure.

[Doug Lamoris]

Chief Content Officer building.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that's fine.

[Doug Lamoris]

All right.

[Bill Landis]

It's called a tease.

[Doug Lamoris]

I remember being at the 2016 NFL Combine, and one of the main things was it was clear that Ezekiel Elliott. And it's funny, I just remember thinking this at the time and like, I kind of like, was like, that's what's. I'm not going to write this. What's the point? But like, Derrick Henry was also there and Derek Henry is like as tall as the skyscraper. And I can remember thinking, like, are we sure Derek Henry. Is it just as good of a draft prospect as Ezekiel Elliott? Like, why? I. I don't. I don't know what I'm like, yeah, not that Zeke's not good, but like, this guy's nine inches taller than Zeke. And then it's like, Derek Henry's been Derek Henry. And then Zeke Elliott had a great career, but.

[Bill Landis]

But one of them is going to the hall of Fame and one of them's not.

[Doug Lamoris]

I mean, I'm just saying.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

So I remember I wrote it at the time. I remember asking a lot of people at the time. That was kind of right at the start of the positional value with running backs and like, Ken, Ezekiel Elliott go in the top five. And it's not about how good he is. It's entirely about positional value. And there were people there who were like, yes. Like, now we were not here on Monday and Tuesday, when most of the NFL GMs and coaches spoke. But, like, for that combine back then, I was there for that. So I was asking coaches and GMs, like, theoretically, philosophically, what, you know, specifically was it with Ezekiel Elliott, but generally, can a running back go that high? And then it's like, yeah, he did. He went forth because he's Ezekiel Elliott.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

And he, like, took the NFL by storm. And it was like, well, that was a good pick. Right? Like, that's what I'm thinking of with Caleb Downs. Can a safety go this high? And then I feel like that it is so obvious. It was so obvious how good Ezekiel Elliott was. It was like, hey, he wants to have a conversation about how good Ezekiel Elliott is. It's like, nobody. Because the conversation is, he's really good. The conversation from an NFL perspective was, what's the value of the position? How does it compare to very good players at other positions? And that's what I've been reminded of all week, a decade later, of Caleb Downs is Ezekiel Elliott. And the discussion is positional value at safety. And I'm just. I'm Google. I'm in the Google machine. I think the last time that a safety went in the top five was 2010

[Bill Landis]

Eric Barry.

[Doug Lamoris]

So, like, that's what we're talking about. And it feels like. And so I wrote that story before the draft, and then, like, the answer was like, yes, Ezekiel Elliott is worth it. And I think Mel Kuiper has Caleb down second in his mock draft. I think the answer is going to be, yes, Caleb Downs is worth it. But I think that's kind of, like, the only question about Caleb Downs as an NFL draft prospect.

[Bill Landis]

I think so, too, and I just don't know. I think most teams would probably say that he is, and I don't. I don't know what there is that would knock them off of that. Because it's not even. Like, what if he goes out on Friday and. And isn't blazing fast? Like, it's not gonna be slow. Right. We've seen him play. He's super athletic. He might be more cerebral than he is athletic, but that. That's okay. And he's versatile. He was talking about, like, playing deep, playing nickel, playing corner. Like, he thinks he can do all that stuff at the NFL level. I kind of think he can, too. So, yeah, pretty safe, like, incredibly high floor. I don't know exactly what the ceiling is, but I would probably bet on him being an all pro a couple times. So I Don't. I don't know. Yeah, I guess back to your original question, like, how important all of this is for him.

[Doug Lamoris]

So. And here's the other thing that perhaps this is my official opinion on NFL positional value is quarterback is on the moon, and then everything else is equal.

[Bill Landis]

That's where you are.

[Doug Lamoris]

I think that's where I am. And I would take. If you don't have a quarterback, I might take nine quarterbacks taking a quarterback in the first round, the second round, the third round, until we find a quarterback, because the quarterback is like, everything right now, of course, this TL Seahawks found Sam Darnold in free agency because the Vikings were good with JJ McCarthy. So I. I get that. But here's the example as we were just talking about it, you know, you just stand around. You end up standing around shooting, shooting the football breeze with the fellas. So I was saying this to them. I was podcasting at them. They didn't have a choice. I didn't have a microphone, but I did have opinions. Miles Garrett is like, arguably or maybe inarguably as good as any defensive end in NFL history, has zero impact on the Browns winning games. None. I. I would say that's not a critique of Miles Garrett, but actually, like, I. I actually think it's like, 10. A critique on miles Garrett, which, like, yeah, like, I. I think Miles Garrett, frankly, could maybe do a little bit more like raising the level of the team, but in his job. Like, in the job, not like being in the locker room and hugging everybody, but, like, doing the job that he's paid to do, which is go get the quarterback. He's as good as anybody that's ever done it. His team stinks like hot garbage. He came to the Browns immediately in the aftermath of the Browns having arguably, like, in the conversation, as good as any left tackle ever in Joe Thomas meant nothing to the Browns winning game.

[Bill Landis]

Sure did.

[Doug Lamoris]

Nothing.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

For a decade. So. And I think if you're talking positional value, if you're having a safety conversation, it's like, well, is left tackle more valuable than safety? Yeah. Is edge rusher more valuable than safety? Yeah. Okay. I know a team that had two hall of Famers for a decade each, and they sucked the whole time. So, like, go get good players, and if you don't have a quarterback, none of it matters. But why would. So. Because here's the thing. Here's the thing that I think is the point of positional value. It's not about, like, are you gonna be good or not. It's gonna be. Is it possible that you're good? And it doesn't matter that, like, we drafted Caleb Downs. Caleb Downs is everything we thought he would be. And it didn't do that much because safeties are not as important as these other things. So we have to go get the guys who, if and when they are good, will contribute to winning more. And I would say Miles Garrett and Joe Thomas. So if you're not a quarterback, like, I would start throwing the positional value stuff out the window. Give me the best, best football players, and I want as many good football players as possible while we look for a franchise quarterback. And guess what? Caleb Downs is as good of a football player as anybody in this draft.

[Bill Landis]

I'm sold, I think, because I don't. He could end up a couple of places that maybe think they have their quarterback. So then I get like, is there. I'm trying to think. I don't know the draft order off top of my head. Like, I should, I guess, while I'm sitting here at the NFL draft, combo

[Doug Lamoris]

quarterback to take, like, so Mendoza's going

[Bill Landis]

one, and then there's not a quarterback. There's not a quarterback instead of Caleb. I just wonder, like, are there enough. Are there enough teams in the top 12 that do have their quarterback who then want to draft the left tackle to help to help the quarterback that they already have?

[Doug Lamoris]

That.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

That is a. That is a bet. Like, if you have the quarterback, what is the positional value that helps that quarterback win the most?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

Or that helps the team. So. So the Jets.

[Bill Landis]

Who's the jets quarterback? Who's the jets quarterback?

[Doug Lamoris]

Is it Chad Pennington? No, it was Justin Fields this past year, but then they decided it's not him anymore. Do they have a quarterback? Hey, does anyone know who the jets quarterback is?

[Bill Landis]

The Jets. The jets social team was sitting behind us.

[Doug Lamoris]

Is this. Is this outrageous? No one here knows this. We're humble college football writers.

[Bill Landis]

Jets predicted to replace Justin Fields with intriguing young quarterback. Are they going to be, like, in the Malik Willis market?

[Doug Lamoris]

Oh, okay, so they have none.

[Bill Landis]

So they don't have a quarterback. Which I guess we could have just assumed because they have the Jets.

[Doug Lamoris]

The Cardinals have no quarterback.

[Bill Landis]

They're third. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

The Titans have Cam Ward. So the Titans are saying, like, we want to have people to help Cam Ward win. But then I would argue it's like, all right, Cam Ward's the quarterback of your offense. Get Caleb Downs to be the quarterback of your defense. That'll help Cam Ward win. The Giants have Jackson Dart.

[Bill Landis]

I'm not all the way there, but he's their guy. They think he's neighbors.

[Doug Lamoris]

Like, they could take Caleb Downs. The Browns have no quarterback. They have no anything. The commanders have Jaden Daniels. Like Caleb Downs. Like, like, I think that that would make sense. The Saints have Tyler Shuck.

[Bill Landis]

Yep.

[Doug Lamoris]

The Chiefs, I can't remember who their quarterback is. And then the Bengals have Joe Burrow. So, like, again, Dave Biddle, our buddy from around the shoe, is on his knees for Caleb Downs, begging that the Bengals can get him at 10. Like, I just. There wouldn't be anybody here that I would say to these teams, even like to the. Would you say to the Giants if Caleb Downs and Francis now, you know, the tackle from Miami are both there. Would you say to the Giants, I like Maui Noah. He's a tackle. He's going to lock down a side of the line. I played right tackle in college, but I don't know what. But he's going to protect Jackson Dart. You want Jackson Dart to be able to get the ball to Malik Neighbors. Now we know it helps you more than Caleb Downs does.

[Bill Landis]

I would tell him the trade down.

[Doug Lamoris]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

Just because I don't want them to have good players.

[Doug Lamoris]

Oh, yeah, you take the Giants. But like, is that.

[Bill Landis]

No, no, it's like.

[Doug Lamoris]

So if we do it with commanders at seven, you need to protect Jaden Daniels, take Francis, Maui Noah instead of Caleb Downs. Would you say that if you have

[Bill Landis]

a quarterback who's got the goods? I think I probably would say that, yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

Okay. But if you have. If you don't have a quarterback, then you are just.

[Bill Landis]

Then everything's open, good players mode. You're just taking a. I'm taking the best football players regardless of position. And Caleb Downs might be the best football player regardless of position in this entire draft.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. And so like, that's the thing. He was asked that question. I don't think it's a bad question just to see how guys answer it, but if you see a quote that like Caleb Downs, because there's. There's even some ones who have backdrops here who are just like aggregation farmers who just take every quote out of context and it doesn't mean anything. Kids, sometimes they say things they don't mean and sometimes they mean things they don't say. Caleb Downs has a quote out there. That's that you can read it on an interwebs site as like, yes, I'm the best player in this draft, but it's like somebody said, caleb, are you the best player in this draft, and he's like, I guess if I. I mean, if I step on the football field, I mean, I think I'm the best player. And then it's like, Downs throws down, Gauntlet 2 league. But he might be like, if we're doing that. And I'm sure, like, there's somebody who's smart enough to create content between now and the end of April that is listing the best football players, because I'm not even sure a big board is that.

[Bill Landis]

We were talking about the big board factors in positional value.

[Doug Lamoris]

I think, like, the best football players. Like when we said the best player On Ohio State's 2015 team was Cam Johnston because nobody was better at their job at their position than the punter. Does that mean we drafted Johnson ahead of Joey Bosa? Yes, it does.

[Bill Landis]

But it does have 14 draft picks.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yes, but if you and I back [e-mail] and said, like, let's do a list of who are the best football players. Right. If. If you were doing that with this draft class, I think you might arrive at Caleb Downs.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think you would. Yeah. I don't. Jeremiah Love, maybe. I think. I think that's the conversation. It's like, which. Which of these two guys do you like? Yeah. I don't pretend to be more of a draft expert than I am because I'm not one at all. But he'd get my vote. Caleb Wood, because I thought he was the best player. It was like, him or Jeremiah Smith, I guess, maybe. Jeremiah Smith. Jeremiah. Jeremiah Smith. Jeremiah Smith's not in this draft. But we ended up.

[Doug Lamoris]

We.

[Bill Landis]

We ended with Caleb first. Right? Did we not?

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, he's good at football. So that's where we're on. Caleb Downs, Lorenzo Styles, you talk to him.

[Bill Landis]

And 16 minutes with Lorenzo Styles, by the way. Only nine with Caleb. 16.

[Doug Lamoris]

They. They got the hook and they're like, you're done. And then some. Someone came over me was like, the NFL forgot to, like, shut. He was like, styles down.

[Bill Landis]

He was the only guy talking for a while, and then one of the workers just, like, walking by, looking at his sheet, and then, like, looked up like, oh, someone's talking. I guess I should go get them off the stage. Oh, yeah, because it was Lorenzo Styles who talked for almost 17 months.

[Doug Lamoris]

He's a fine fella. Was he agitated by having to deal with you yahoos for so long?

[Bill Landis]

No. I think the only thing that seemed to agitate him was he was getting asked some Notre Dame questions. Oh, there's Notre Dame writer here who was asking him about his time at Notre Dame, but then also about Quincy Porter and Myelin Graham.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yes.

[Bill Landis]

And those answers were a little short. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

Davis again, like, kudos to that reporter. You got to get stuff to your audience that they might hear about. And Davison Igbos said about Quincy Porter, Miley Graham, like, I, I covered them in practice and I think they're good players and I think they'll, you know, do a great job at Notre Dame. So. Yeah, stuff happens, man.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Lorenzo Styles, I don't think said that many words. He didn't say those guys stink. But like, he just like kind of waved the question off a little bit.

[Doug Lamoris]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

What else? Like, Lorenzo Styles will be interesting to watch run. We've talked about that.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. He again, fastest guy on the team. I guess we'll find out. I think he stands to put up a pretty good 40 time. I think for him it's, it's more of like the three cone of the, the agility stuff than the straight line speed. That'll determine kind of what teams think of him. I actually think he's going to be in the NFL for a long time as a special teamer. I just don't know if his ceiling is anything higher than that. But NFL teams need core, huh? They need core special teamers. I think like that I asked this of him because he returned a punt against UCLA this year. Like the NFL has changed the rules to bring the kickoff return back into the game. And I think he's a pretty good kickoff returner. Right. So I, I think like that gunner, he said, he said corner, nickel safety, all four special teams is what is like, it's like, that's what I can do for NFL team. And like, he is not. I think sometimes you might get a guy appearing, they say like special teams. And I said like, well, I'm more than that. Like, I'm not entertaining that. There's like, no, I'll come be an animal on special teams for your NFL team if you want me to. Like, he's, he's older, he'll interview really well. I think he's got pretty good football iq. He just might be like a little bit limited in terms of like the, the, the athletic stuff beyond straight line speed. But he's also a guy who I felt like got significantly better over the course of his time at Ohio State. And, and I asked of him, like, because he was talking about Arvel Reese and some other guys. Like, he said, like, you know, at a place like Ohio State, it only takes a year for you to become a star and put yourself on the stage like. Like Arvel has and like Katie McDonald did. But he was sort of lamenting that he's really only been focusing on defensive back for kind of two years.

[Doug Lamoris]

And he didn't.

[Bill Landis]

He didn't say, like, I wish I had just played it from the jump. He started as a receiver in Notre Dame before he transferred to Ohio State. He was doing a little bit of both at Notre Dame, receiver and defensive back. Then he got to Ohio State, became a defensive back, but he really wasn't. He only had one year as a starter. He was a dime back the year before that. He's not played a lot of defensive back in college now. He thinks that's a plus because he thinks he's got a lot of room to grow despite being an older player. But my hunch is that that would probably be more maybe held against him, given his age. So it's like, a little bit of a tough spot to be in, but I think he's probably gonna run well enough. And again, that'll happen on Friday to get drafted late. And I think, like I said, I think I'll make. I'll make a decent living being a special teamer.

[Doug Lamoris]

And he put it on film this year. He can play nickel, and then he can drop back and play that deep safety spot. So it's like, yeah, the last guy on the active roster for a game, and you're gonna play all four special teams, and you can be, like, the. The backup at multiple positions in the secondary. Like, you can be player 45 on

[Bill Landis]

a roster doing that. Absolutely. I think. And I think that's. That's a skip to that. What do you call it? To get to the pension? Get to the pension, baby. Yeah. That's all it takes, you know.

[Doug Lamoris]

Who wants you to get to the pension? The landlord, because he's coming for that rent. Tight ends. Two tight ends. We thought they were going to speak at the same time. Max, Claire and Wick, they were scheduled to, and then things got all jammed up, and then they didn't speak at the same time. So then I left and made you

[Bill Landis]

talk to both of them. I did talk to both of them. I won't. I won't lie and say they were like. Like, super enlightening. Max Claire was asked a lot about, like, his decision to transfer. We were, like, sort of, like, dancing around, and it was never really asked directly. Like, do you think transferring to Ohio State worked for you? And I. I think he thinks it did. Right. And because you know, there's stuff about like, hey, you weren't the number one receiver at Ohio State when you were the number one receiver at Purdue. But it's like his production actually wasn't all that different. It's just that 40 receptions leads Purdue and 40 receptions is third at Ohio State.

[Doug Lamoris]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

So I, I don't, I don't know that his existence was all that different. And I think he feels he did make some strides as, as a blocker this past year. I'm a little surprised he came out, but it's not a great tight end class from what I can gather.

[Doug Lamoris]

So.

[Bill Landis]

So I think it makes sense. Like it was, for instance, they had the players like assigned podiums here, but they change all the time. Kenyon Siddiq from Oregon was supposed to be at podium five. So the entire like Philadelphia Eagles media contingent huddled around that because the Eagles need a tight end and Kenyon Siddiq is the best tight end in the draft. But then they switched it and Claire ended up being a podium five. But like a bunch of the Eagles media, like, we're still asking Claire questions because like, he's an option for them too. I think fairly early for like, for, for tight end needy teams. Max Claire is going to be pretty high up on the board because of this, like the lack of depth, I think of the position in this draft. So I think the decision to come out early will work out fine for him. But I don't know, like, me personally, I don't feel like maybe Knives is a blocker at Ohio State. In one season he was there and could have had he stayed another year. But his receiving tape, especially at Purdue, I think we'll go pretty far when he's talking to people here.

[Doug Lamoris]

And that was part of the thing, right? I mean, was that not part of the deal? I'm coming to Ohio State in part to like become a more well rounded tight end. Like to improve my draft stock. Yeah, like, did you improve your draft stock? Daniel Jeremiah did talk about this, that it's. Sadiq is kind of the only guy at the top of the tight end class. Certainly. I think the only guy even in consideration in the first round. Looking at the smart draft database, Kenyan Sadiq from Oregon is 19th overall. Eli Stowers or Stowers do you know? I think it's Stowers quarterback. He, he had the privilege of catching passes from the great Diego Pavia at Vanderbilt.

[Bill Landis]

Short king. He's five' nine, he's fifty.

[Doug Lamoris]

Is he, Is he here?

[Bill Landis]

I don't know. Oh yes, he is here. Yes.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, we should stay for the quarterbacks just for that. Oh, he's at 59th overall, which is,

[Bill Landis]

I wonder if he'll be the shortest player here. Him or d' Angelo Pons

[Doug Lamoris]

now you think it's like I, I, that does happen to me. I think a good questions after the interview sessions. But to ask d' Angelo Pond the battle between you and Diego probably to

[Bill Landis]

be the shortest player. There are kickers and punters here by

[Doug Lamoris]

the way, but like D' Angelo Ponce, great player. Yeah. Max Claire is at 72 on the mock draft database as an overall player which like third round.

[Bill Landis]

Solid in the third round.

[Doug Lamoris]

And then so he's the third tight end then. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20th tight end in the mock draft databases. Will Casmarik at 253 which is like right on the edge of getting drafted. I will go on the record now and we'll have a bell later. I think Will Cashmeric will go somewhat, significantly higher than that. I think Max Claire will go lower.

[Bill Landis]

I think I can get behind that. I don't, I don't know about the Claire lower, but I think, I think Cass Merrick might rise here. I've, he is a guy, I think he said he's gonna do all the stuff, all the testing. It's weird. They had the tight ends go, but like all the offensive guys, it was like all defense and then the tight ends and then the rest of the offensive guys go later this week in terms of interviews and workouts and stuff. The tight ends obviously be out there when the quarterbacks are throwing on on Saturday. I don't know what the athletic profile is for Will CAS Merrick, but I know that he blocks his butt off and teams like that a lot. And he was sort of embracing the idea of like, yeah, that's what I'm about, like throw me the ball, don't throw me the ball. I'm here to block people. And I think you have to have the versatility, right to, to you know, succeed in the league and get paid, you know, something above like league minimum or something like that. But he's kind of a no nonsense guy who wants to do, do the dirty work that I think teams will very much appreciate.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, I mean I, I just think, I think in analyzing the draft you can get overly enamored with pass catching tight ends when actually I think sometimes the NFL's like, oh like you're a tall tight end who wants to play in the slot. It's like, we have receivers who do that. Just for example. I think we made a lot of comparisons there. Right. Claire is Jeremy Rucker. Luke Farrell is the comparison for Will Kazmark. Luke Farrell in the 2021 draft was a little surprising. He was the first pick of the fifth round as drafted by Urban Meyer, pick 145. And then Jeremy Ruckert the next year in 2022, was picked late in the third round, pick 101. And I just think maybe if you would have said Jeremy Ruckert and Luke Farrell will be picked 44 picks apart, not the same draft, not the exact same thing, maybe you would have thought there would have been a bigger gap there, that maybe you would have thought Ruckert's going to be more like a second rounder. And I'm even sure Luke Farrell is going to get picked. And I think we could be. Now, there's no Urban Meyer to draft Buckeyes, but I think we could be looking at Jeff happily. That's true. Maybe a little bit of a similar thing where, like, yes, flair is just not quite. Like, if you're, like, waiting around in the late second round for Max Claire, and it's like, oh, he went, like, closer to pick 100 than to pick 50. And then Kazmark goes closer to, like, pick 150 than pick 250. Right. Yeah, I think that's where we could be.

[Bill Landis]

I could see that happen. And I think Ferals had, like, a slightly better career than Rucker to this point. Maybe Rucker's had some injury stuff. Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

And no quarterback.

[Bill Landis]

And no quarterback because he, again, he plays for the jets, who stink.

[Doug Lamoris]

All right, so that. That, I think, will do it. We are. I think we're gonna do a Wednesday show on this feed. We try to do a national show late in the week, and we had not certainly been hammering that here. We did not go around and ask everybody, like, how come the north is good in the south stinks. But I.

[Bill Landis]

Well, it's understood now. You don't have to.

[Doug Lamoris]

I wouldn't mind taking a little bit of an exam because, like, again, it's not draft season yet, but, like, we can do a little bit of this before spring football starts. Like, you know, I just, like, did that, like, the eyeglass face, the Mr. Peanut eyeglass face on, like, a Bruce Feldman tweet the other day. Because, like, Bruce Feldman's just pointing out, like, there's no SEC players in Daniel Jeremiah's top 20, and there's, like, 10 Big Ten players, and it's like, how about that? Yeah. So I would like to do a show where we cram this microphone right up the SEC and talk about how many good Northern players there are in this draft. And we'll just split sprinkle that a little bit here in late February before we turn our eyes towards spring football.

[Bill Landis]

I like it. Let's do it. Any chance to put the south in its place, I'm in favor of.

[Doug Lamoris]

Thanks to you guys for being part of it. Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com if you want the two shows we do there every week for our subscribers. We're writing a bunch of stuff from the combine. We're going to get start writing a bunch of stuff and previewing Ohio State spring football, which starts on March 10th, as you guys know. And we'll continue to put out some stuff here in the YouTube and podcast feed. And we're just. We had a good time in Indy, so thanks to everybody who are substack subscribers. We did a survey. What do you want us to do? And there was enough interest that we should come, and I think we're glad we did.

[Bill Landis]

I'm glad we did. Yeah. We're gonna go to Outback Steakhouse thing for dinner on the way out.

[Doug Lamoris]

Maybe Texas. Maybe Texas Road.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, never been to. Yeah. Okay.

[Doug Lamoris]

And we think we can get a table next year that says the Bill and Doug show.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Not Minnesota Vikings.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. We set off. I'm Kevin o'. Connell. He's Donovan Jackson. That's what we did on our test feed.

[Bill Landis]

I'm Randy Moss.

[Doug Lamoris]

You know how many. Oh, this would be a good watch. A question. How many jerseys of. Of athletes, like, with their name on the back, have you ever owned or worn?

[Bill Landis]

Oh, yeah, I got. I got a lot. I went through a real, real phase. Like, I had, like, a Jeremy Shocky jersey when I was a kid. Yeah. And I'm an Eagles fan. I still had a Jeremy Shocky jersey.

[Doug Lamoris]

Okay. I don't think they're. They're still both in my closet. Oh. Wear them on the show when we do it. They're both still in my closet. They're, I think, the only two I ever had, and they're the last two I ever had. It's been a very long time. But one was Peyton Manning and one was Randy Moss.

[Bill Landis]

Nice. I didn't have. I had a Peyton Manning. I didn't have a Randy Moss. I will. I'll rack my brain and try to inventory as much as I can. All the jerseys that I've owned. And I'll bring that to a show.

[Doug Lamoris]

We'll bring that to a whatcha. We do that on Wednesdays. We appreciate you guys hanging out for now from Indianapolis at the NFL Combine, where we're still trying to figure out who is the jets quarterback. He's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lamoris, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.