Ohio State quarterback grades: Was this the Buckeyes' ideal QB room, and Julian Sayin's caretaking

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Quarterback Grades & Ideal QB Room

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

Hosts: Doug Lesmerises (B), Bill Landis (D) | Podcast Network: Blue Wire

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Doug and Bill break down the Ohio State quarterback (QB) room—its present configuration, recent performance, and future outlook. They analyze whether the current mix is the “ideal” modern college football QB room, dig into Julian Sayin’s profile as a starter, compare him to the best QBs of the Ryan Day era, and weigh the challenges of roster stacking in the transfer portal age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Modern Quarterback Room: Is Four the New Fantasy?

[01:51 – 07:08]

• Doug raises whether it’s even possible to have a classic “four quarterbacks in four classes”-style room given today’s rampant transfers:
  • “Is it impossible to have four guys that have been in the program, like lined up, boom, boom, boom. Four years of guys. Is that a fantasy anymore?” (B, 03:11)
• Bill says, realistically, three is the new norm: “I think most years are probably going to have three and have to be okay with it.” (D, 03:50)
• Walk-ons and low-profile transfers (e.g., Eli Brickhandler) now fill that fourth spot, but they’re not “rotation” guys.
• If Keenholz left, should OSU seek a more experienced transfer or just wait until a true gap occurs in leadership or experience?
  • Bill: Only go for a “Tristan Jebbia/Gunnar Hoak-type” veteran if you’re breaking in a totally new starter; with Sayin, “I don’t know that they’re gonna be pounding the pavement quite as hard...” (D, 05:03)

Key Takeaway

• An “ideal” room right now is three scholarship QBs plus a veteran placeholder—not four “stacked” blue chips, which is almost impossible to retain at Ohio State’s level.

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2. How Good Is This Year’s QB Room, Really?

[06:07 – 09:14]

• Current depth chart: 3rd year Lincoln Keenholz (ideal No. 2), 2nd year Julian Sayin (star), 1st year Tavian St. Clair, plus walk-ons and Brickhandler.
• Bill: “It’s about as good as you can hope for for a place that wants to be really good at quarterback. Like Ohio State is… I think it more or less looks how it looks right now.” (D, 06:27)
• Doug reviews recent recruiting rankings: with consistent top-10 QB recruits, but notes 2026 commit Luke Fahey is a rare lower-rated (No. 37) recruit—a calculated move to balance depth and talent.

Notable Quote

• “I don’t think the best quarterback room is to get the number one quarterback recruit in the country in four straight classes and say that’s our room. So I think you can see…an example of good quarterback room building.” (B, 08:45)

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3. The Downside of Stacked Rooms: The Waiting Game

[10:14 –12:26]

• What if Sayin stays an extra year and St. Clair is blocked?
  • Doug: “If you have year four Julian Sane and year three Tavian Sinclair, who both want to be starting quarterbacks and they’re in the Ohio State quarterback room, how does that work out? ...Good problems to have.” (B, 11:48)
• Bill: This could be a rare but possible problem, though it's more likely Sayin is gone after '26 if all goes as planned.

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4. How Often Do True Freshman Start at Power Programs?

[15:21 – 17:28]

• Doug lists true freshmen QBs who were full-season starters at power programs this year—showing OSU’s strategy of letting St. Clair “marinate” is actually advantageous (and a luxury).
• The key reason St. Clair won’t play right away: “The difference is Julian Sayin.” (D, 16:38)
• If Sayin hadn’t transferred, would Day have been comfortable rolling a true freshman? Bill: “I think you very much prefer to never have to start a true freshman.” (D, 17:53)

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5. Grading Julian Sayin: Style, Stats & Trajectory

[18:22 – 25:45]

• Doug proposes (then skips) a direct ranking of Day-era QBs, noting it would get negative—so he turns to advanced stats.
• PFF grades: Only 2020 Fields is rated higher in all-around offensive grade than Sayin.
• Big-time throws vs Turnover-worthy plays:
  • Sayin is excellent at protecting the ball (“He takes care of the ball better than any Ryan Day quarterback,” (B, 21:40)), albeit without Fields/Stroud’s gunslinger highlight volume.
• Quarterback maturity: Bill expects Sayin’s playmaking risk to increase with confidence, and that’s normal for elite QBs.

Notable Quote

• “He’s a different style of quarterback… I think you’ll see both continue to rise a little bit. But he is, yeah, he’s a different style.” (D, 24:55)

• Doug on style: “I think timidness comes from fear and caution comes from intelligence… I don’t get that sense with him at all.” (B, 25:45)

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6. Comparing to Past Legends: Fields, Stroud, and Beyond

[30:28 – 32:31]

• Sayin is more Stroud than Fields: less athletic but hyper-smart and accurate, showing flashes of taking over games as he matures.
• “The baseline that he has laid down this year… I find him to be an interesting quarterback in almost his blandness. And, and I mean blandness in like, the guy just does his job.” (B, 31:29)

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7. Crowd-Sourced Grades and “The Press Package”

[35:31 – 38:18]

• Substack subscriber average QB room grade: 88/100
  • “It’s a ridiculously high bar. But 88 as an average is pretty good. So quarterbacks go down as an 88.” (B, 38:18)
• Brief speculation on whether Lincoln Keenholz will get a “press package” (short-yardage specialty role) in the playoff; Bill thinks it’s possible but OSU is cautious with packages when transfer potential looms.

Memorable Moment

• The hosts affectionately debate whether designing a role for Keenholz is wise given his transfer likelihood:
  • “Are you building anything around Lincoln Keenholz if you’re the slightest bit unsure about that?” (D, 36:46)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On the Impossibility of the Four-QB Room:
  • “Is it impossible to have four guys that have been in the program, like lined up, boom, boom, boom. Four years of guys. Is that a fantasy anymore?”
    (Doug, 03:11)
• On Julian Sayin’s Elite Ball Security:
  • “He takes care of the ball better than any Ryan Day quarterback…he is somewhat significantly above them in the not giving it away turnover level.”
    (Doug, 21:40)
• On Sayin’s Playing Style:
  • “He is at times maybe too smart for his own good, but actually as a first year starter and second year college football player, he’s probably exactly what you want to be.”
    (Doug, 25:45)
  • “I think timidness comes from fear and caution comes from intelligence.”
    (Doug, 25:45)
• On the “Good Problem” of Too Much QB Talent:
  • “If you have year four Julian Sane and year three Tavian Sinclair, who both want to be starting quarterbacks…how does that work out? ...Good problems to have.”
    (Doug, 11:48)
• On Room Stacking and Recruiting Approach:
  • “I don’t think the best quarterback room is to get the number one quarterback recruit in the country in four straight classes and say that’s our room…an example of good quarterback room building.”
    (Doug, 08:45)
• On Young QB Growth:
  • “I just don’t know that he’s a guy that, that repeats mistakes. And as long as he can, like kind of stay in that mode, I think he’s just going to keep getting better and better.”
    (Bill, 34:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Modern QB Room Logistics & Challenges: 01:51 – 07:08
• Assessing 2025’s Room & Recruiting Strategy: 06:27 – 09:14
• Potential St. Clair/Sayin Logjam Scenario: 10:14 – 12:26
• Freshman QBs Across CFB (and St. Clair's Timeline): 15:21 – 17:28
• Sayin’s Style & Stat Breakdown vs. Fields/Stroud: 18:22 – 25:45
• Blandness as a Virtue/Expectations for Playoff Leap: 30:28 – 32:31
• Fan Grading, Press Package, Keenholz’s Future: 35:31 – 38:18

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Summary Table: Ranked Day-Era QB Offensive Grades (PFF)

| Rank | Season/QB | Overall Grade | |------|----------------------|------------------------| | 1 | 2020 Justin Fields | Highest | | 2 | 2025 Julian Sayin | 2nd highest | | 3 | 2021 CJ Stroud | 3rd | | 4 | 2019 Justin Fields | 4th | | 5 | 2022 CJ Stroud | 5th | | 6 | 2025 Will Howard | 6th | | 7 | 2023 Kyle McCord | 7th |

(Per discussion at 19:40)

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Final Thoughts

• The hosts agree Ohio State’s QB room configuration for 2025—Sayin, Keenholz, St. Clair—is as close to ideal as the portal era allows.
• Julian Sayin is statistically superb: careful with the ball yet not overly conservative—his only “shortcoming” is his youth and room to grow more aggressive.
• The room’s future hinges both on wise recruiting balance (not just star-hunting) and managing transfer-era dynamics, especially as young players wait for a shot.
• The hosts expect Sayin to take a leap as a playmaker, possibly as soon as the coming playoff.
• Fan confidence is high, with an 88/100 room grade, but there’s acknowledgment of both room for growth and unavoidable roster churn ahead.

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For fans seeking a lens into OSU’s QB philosophy and Julian Sayin’s trajectory—not just highlights, but the complex mechanics of building and sustaining an elite quarterback room—this episode is an in-depth, candid, and spirited roadmap.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Toughness, GR sacrifices.

[C]

Life's a focus. This is where I everything you got all damn day.

[D]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[C]

Keep physical, keep playing.

[E]

We are the Chile takes on Ole Miss followed by James Madison in Oregon.

[B]

It's time to bring it first round.

[E]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented by allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO. Max, are you ready?

[C]

Let's go foreign.

[B]

Back to the Bill and Doug show. Quarterbacks, today we continue our position group breakdowns. We've done special team safeties and offensive line. Please go back and watch those and listen to those on YouTube on your favorite podcast feed. We're going to talk about not just Julian sand but the room and the future. And I just in the name of the future I want to bring some a question to you here. Bill Landis. We are in already transfer alert season where names are coming out. Which transfer quarterback should the Buckeyes bring in next year to battle Julian Sands for the job? Arizona State Sam Levitt, Nebraska's Dylan Raiola, Florida's DJ Lagway or Cincinnati's Brendan Sorsby?

[D]

Can I take none of the above?

[B]

Okay, just double checking, keeping you on your toes. There's two main things I want to ask and I actually do want to start with the room first because justifiably we've talked about the starting quarterback, the fourth placed Heisman finisher, Julian saying a lot and we will talk a lot about him on the show. But when you think about this room which is third year Lincoln Keenholtz, second year Julian saying first year Tavian Sinclair and then they actually have four other quarterbacks on the roster. Walk on guys. They did bring an Eli Brick handler who played two years at North Carolina A&T and two years at Houston Christian. So he, he is like, I guess he counts. Ryan, they always says he wants four guys in the room. I guess he counts as like the fourth guy who's not a walk on.

[D]

Yeah, he's like the, yeah, he's like the, the Tristan Jebia gunner hook kind of Guy. Yeah.

[B]

So would you say that they did have four guys in the room this year?

[D]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

Okay. Even though we've literally never said that person's name on this show before, you've.

[D]

Never said his name before? I don't actually. I don't know if I've said his name on the show. We've talked about him in the press box because he has a funny name, but.

[B]

Yeah. And he walked at Senior Day.

[D]

He did, yes.

[B]

Because I was going to say. Are we. So Ryan Day always says he wants four guys in the room. Is that dead? Is that over? Because the guy who would have been the fourth guy in this room. When you think about the recruits by class for Ohio State here, it's like, all right, in the class of 2025, they got Tavian Sinclair. In the class of 2024, they wound up with Julian sand after his transfer from Alabama. The class of 2023, they have Lincoln Keenholtz. In the class of 2022, they have Devin Brown. But Devin Brown transferred to Cal because he wasn't going to stick around and be a backup quarterback again. Is it impossible to have four guys that have been in the program, like lined up, boom, boom, boom. Four years of guys. Is that a fantasy anymore?

[D]

Like guys that you bring in and keep for that long? Yeah, I think, I think definitely, especially a place like Ohio State, I think some years, like this year, you can find your way to four, but I also don't think you're going to find your way to four. Probably most year. I think most years are probably going to have three and have to be okay with it.

[B]

And so, but. And that's a change, right? Because just of how the portal works and that kind of thing. Is Eli Brickhandler like the type of guy, if you're trying to get a fourth guy, is it that type? Because even like Tristan Jebbia had started a couple games at Oregon State. Chris Juganov, who was here once upon a time, had kind of been a guy at West Virginia a little bit. They were sort of a step above this. Should they still be shooting for that? And I, I think I want to ask a direct, Luke Fahey is there is their quarterback in the class of 2026, if it's Fahey, Sinclair and saying next year, if Lincoln Keenholtz would decide to transfer to go be a starter somewhere, because we believe he could be a starter somewhere, what should they do to build out that room? Do they need to get kind of a veteran guy that like, if you needed it like, like a step up from Eli Brick Handler or.

[D]

No, I, I don't think so. Because like, that the purpose of that guy is to be someone in the room who has played some, who has prepared, like a starter who understands sort of like what college football is. And they won't need that next year because I'll have Julian saying. So I think the year after that, when Julian is presumably gone and Tavian Sinclair is ready to step up to be a starter for the first time, but you don't have anybody in the room who's actually ever started before, then you go back to try to find a guy like that. Jebia came in in 2023 when Kyle McCord was stepping up to be the starter for the first time. Chugginoff and Hoak came in in 2019 when like that room was Justin Fields and nobody. And Justin Fields is stepping up and starting for the first time. So I think that's when Ryan Day really wants a guy of that caliber. Now, you know, if someone wants to come to Ohio State and be like a GA in training next year, sure, then I think they'll say yes. But I don't know that they're going to be pounding the pavement quite as hard to find somebody like that if they have an established starter already.

[B]

So then when we think about the modern quarterback room and realizing that a guy like Devin Brown is just not going to stay, you're not going to have a fourth year guy like that. When you think about year three, Keen Holtz, year two, saying year one, Tavian Sinclair is this close to a perfect modern day quarterback room that the Buckeyes have this season.

[D]

Yeah, I think it's about as good as you can hope for for a place that wants to be like really good at quarterback. Like Ohio State is, you, I think have correctly described Lincoln Keenholz is sort of like the perfect number two quarterback. I, I agree with that. And then you sort of have your next star in waiting in Sinclair who like, there's no, there's no pressure on him to play too early, but he's still around those guys and can like kind of marinate in the offense a little bit for a couple of years and then obviously you have your, your guy, your number one guy in saying so. Yeah, I, I guess, like if you were to ask Ryan Day, like ideally, what does this room look like? I, I think it more or less looks how it looks right now.

[B]

Yeah. So you just think about the last several years of Ohio State quarterback recruiting, the class of 2021, by the 247 sports composite quarterback rankings. They had the number one and the number six guys in that classic quarterback and Quinn ewers and Kyle McCord. 2022, they had Devin Brown, who was the number six guy in that class. 2023. Lincoln Keenholtz was the number 15 guy in that class. 2024, they had Air Noland originally who you said was the number four guy in that class. And they wound up with Julian saying very quickly who was the number one guy in that class? And Tavian Sinclair is the number three guy in the class of 2025. Luke Fahey is the number 37 guy in the class of 2026. And as we think about putting a room together, like he's the lowest rated guy of anybody that I talked about there. Like, you know, I've sort of always thought, like, I don't really think I was never really in on the Lincoln Keenholtz as a future starter vibe at Ohio State. It just didn't, it didn't seem to me to be the thing. But man, I get bringing a guy like that in. But Even he was 15th in his class, right. Luke Fahey is 37th. And recruiting rankings aren't everything. But like my vibe is, man, does Luke Fahey seem like the right guy, that type of guy to bring in under Julian saying and Tavian Sinclair. And then I'm sure they'll go out in the class of 2027 and try to get one of the five best quarterback recruits in the country.

[D]

But room building committed in 27.

[B]

Oh yeah. What's that guy's name?

[D]

Brady Edmonds.

[B]

Brady Edmonds.

[D]

And what's he ranked as a quarterback in the composite? He is 15th. Oh no, 12th. Sorry, 12th.

[B]

Okay. But like I like this like room building I think matters. I don't think the best quarterback room is to get the number one quarterback recruit in the country in four state straight classes and say that's our room. So I, I think you can see where it is right now as an example of good quarterback room building. And I think Fahey is a component of that in the future and then Edmonds is a component of that. And I just feel like the quarterback vibe, the quarterback stacking seems like it's in a good spot.

[D]

Yeah, I think you wanna. I just don't know that you're gonna have the. Yeah. Stacking top five guys, the position year over year. And it's, it's true of every position, I think and up and down the roster. But most true a quarterback. Right. So in like the Fahey situation, I think you're looking for a guy that's got like, clear upside, but you know, also you don't have to pay $3 million to get to come to your school, right? Maybe down the road you hope that you're gonna have to pay him $3 million. That means he's really good. But you, you, you do have to take some different kinds of swings, I think sort of like in between your top tier quarterbacks. There was a while there that Ohio State felt like a little bit of an outlier in its ability to just like stack top five guys position on top of each other when most other programs, like, weren't really operating that way, but sort of like every other year they went out and got a guy like that. So I just think that that Ohio State has kind of found itself in a similar position just because of the nature of roster building in the sport.

[B]

Now, I certainly would put this under good problems to have, if it even is a problem. But it's one of the first pieces that I wrote on our sub stack. And boy, oh boy, if you want to go over and check it out, Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com gonna have a big Wednesday show over there. Top 22 Buckeyes, the latest rankings. We'll look forward to that. A bunch of written pieces over there, some companion pieces to these pods and these shows. I compared Tavian Sinclair to Arch Manning and said, like, Tavian Sinclair is gonna be Ohio State's Arch Manning, meaning he's gonna be like a talented young guy that people are going to be antsy to see him play while he's sitting behind a very talented, established starting quarterback. And I think in the perfect, perfect, perfect world, you would have a class between Julian sand and Tavian Sinclair and wouldn't have them stacked back to back. Julian sand is Ohio State starting quarterback next year. I came in, Sinclair will have to wait. I. It's. It's not a thing that is a. Should be a primary conversation. And Ohio State fans, it's the last thing I want to do is plant seeds for Ohio State fans to get worried about. Like, it's just because he's 6:1 and he's just like the. Not. He's not the most physically imposing guy. Not that there haven't been smaller quarterbacks who have been drafted very high in the NFL draft. Baker Mayfield, Bryce Young, right, had a ton of success. I wouldn't be flabbergasted if Julian Saying entertained the idea of staying in College for 2027 and that's where I, the rubber meets the road of like, what are you going to do if you have year four Julian Sane and year three Tavian Sinclair, who both want to be starting quarterbacks and they're in the Ohio State quarterback room and how that works out under the label of good problems to have. And if Julian sand goes out next year and throws 46 touchdown passes and averages 300 passing yards a game and is projected as like the number four overall pick in the 2027 NFL Draft, this will not be a problem. But in the back recesses of my mind, I think about it.

[D]

Yeah, I, I, you know, I, I think it's, it's a possibility. And it's again, primarily like this. Does he have. Will his size be viewed as any kind of limitation when it's time to get drafted? Which is to say, like, could it keep him from being a first round pick? I don't, I don't know that it would. My guess is probably no. Actually, I would say more confidently than that no. So I don't think Julian's around for 2027 unless something goes wrong. But I thought about it too. Like what? Like, you know, it's like the Quinn Ewers thing. Like Quinn Ewers. I, I don't know. I probably hung around Texas one year too long and then there was talks like, what's he gonna stick? He could have stuck around for another year too if he wanted to. So I don't know. I don't really want to think about thinking. No, there's necessarily or make anybody worry about it. But no, nothing to worry about. Yeah, I do think you're right that, yeah, ideally they would not be stacked in back to back years like this because you could also enter like, you know, the only, you only have with Dwayne Haskins starting for one year. Right. And that kind of stunk. So I don't think you want that to happen. That, that, that feels like a reality too. It's like you get Julian next year and then Tavian shows up, he's really good, and then he goes, you don't probably want that to happen either. So it's a good problem to have, like you said, but it could get a little complicated. I suppose.

[F]

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[B]

The College Football Playoff is everything. Toughness, roles, sacrifices.

[C]

Everything you got all that.

[D]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[C]

Be physical. Keep playing. We are the winner.

[E]

Chilene takes on Ole Miss, followed by James Madison in Oregon.

[B]

It's time to bring it first round.

[E]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented by allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO. Max, are you ready?

[C]

Let's get him.

[B]

And it's just a reminder. It's not a ton, but we've talked about true freshman quarterbacks a lot. You think about Tavian St. Clair's class. I think this is right for true freshmen. This year started were there like full time starters for the whole season for Power Four teams. Malik Washington at Maryland, who was the number 10 quarterback in this class? I've been working on it. Jaron Kiawe, Sanga Pulatelli, it's pretty good.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

At Cal was the number seven quarterback in this class. Bear Bachmeier at BYU was number 28 quarterback in this class. And he's like Julian sand that he went one place for a couple months and then transferred. He was at Stanford but wound up at byu. True freshman. And Bryce Underwood, the number one quarterback in this class at Michigan. They all, they started 12 games. Brock Meyer started 13 because he started the Big 12 championship game. Mason Heintschel at Pitt, the Toledo Kid, it was a great story. He started seven games when he took over in the middle of the year. And then juju Lewis at Colorado started to and TJ Lateef at Nebraska started three. So those are the guys who I like kind of were true freshmen who, who played any kind of significant time. But the point is it's just hard. Like what's the difference between Tavian Sinclair and Bryce Underwood? I think the difference is Julian saying.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, one guy showed up to campus and Julian saying was here and one didn't. Yeah.

[B]

So. So it's just when you start thinking about this, it's, it would not be, this is not a ton of. But it would not have been absolutely bonkers for Tavian Sinclair to play this year. Ryan Day didn't want that because for development and for the best thing for a program like Ohio State and the best thing for a player like Tavian Sinclair, you probably don't want to do that, but you could. If, if you absolutely needed to, you could. And so now, okay, now, next year, now a bunch of guys play in year two. C.J. stroud played in year two. Justin Fields played in year two. Julian Sam's playing year two. There doesn't seem to be a path for Tavian Sinclair to play in year two. And so it's just gonna be interesting. That's all. But the room. But this is also the price of having a room that I think in the modern era, this is the perfect room.

[D]

Yeah, I think it is too. I. I do wonder, like, in an alternate universe where Julian saying whatever, transferred to USC instead of Ohio State or just stated Alabama, if, If Ryan Day would at any level been comfortable with, like, not bringing in a transfer and starting Lincoln Keenholts with somewhere in the back of his mind thinking, maybe at some point during this season we turn it over to Tavian as a freshman.

[B]

That's interesting.

[D]

I don't know. I think, I think you very much, like, for a guy who played the position, like, I think you would very much prefer to never have to start a true freshman. But the day will come, I think, eventually when that happens.

[B]

So it's just a reminder of, of how good a shape Ohio State is in. All right. So I'm not sure there was a fun conversation for the audience. Let me do another fun conversation. Not. Potentially not fun conversation for the audience. Julian saying this year, very good at quarterback.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

I'm gonna list you starting quarterbacks of the Ryan Day era, and you say, who would you rather have right now to play for this? Is this not worth it? Maybe? Like, is this a fun exercise or no? Or is this going to be like, oh, great, these guys are just like, talking negatively about this. Amazing.

[D]

I think it's impossible to have that conversation without it coming off as negative. When really all the discussion is like, boy, aren't these guys really awesome? Like, almost to. Almost to a man. It's like, I. We don't have to go through it. Like, I would probably take all, all of them, except for Will Howard and Kyle McCormick.

[B]

Julian, because it's just, I mean, because it's just two years of Fields and two years of Stroud. Let me do this. Then instead, instead of torturing our dedicated, educated, loyal Ohio State fan base, who is eagerly anticipating a playoff run that perhaps could bring Ohio State its first back to back national championships, led by quarterback Julian saying, who's no. 2022, C.J. stroud. I'm just kidding. What's the point of that? There's no point of saying that. But also he might be just overall PFF grade, like overall offensive grade, not just passing, but the overall offensive grade in the Ryan day era. Number one, 20, 20, Justin Fields. Number two, Julian Sand.

[D]

Okay, number three.

[B]

Number three, 20, 21, CJ Stroud. Number four, 2019, Justin Fields. Number five, 20, 22, CJ Stroud. Number six, Will Howard. Number seven, Comicord. And so there's just a reminder there a little bit. And let me do one more thing that I did. I looked at turnover worthy play percentage and big time throw percentage on pff, right? Which is it's the percentage, it's not the raw numbers. The point is this. Big time throw percentage. Fields, field, Stroud, Stroud. Among power conference quarterbacks who played the requisite number of snaps, Fields was one, Fields and 20 was eight. Stroud was six, Stroud was four. Okay, so like they were at the top 10 in big time throws the last three years. Kyle McCord, Will Howard, Julian saying they're all 22nd. Just weird. They're all 22nd. Turnover worthy plays. How often are you making mistakes? Fields 15th, Fields 14th, Stroud 23rd. Stroud 46th. McCord 51st. Which is like one is good, one is taking care of the ball. Right? So you Stroud 51st, Howard 33rd. So a lot of what matters here to me is your balance between big time throw percentage and turnover worthy play percentage. So Justin Fields, he's one in big time throws and he's 15th in turnover worthy plays. That's so excellent. Right now we're getting another Julian saying second. Yeah, so he takes care of the ball better than any Ryan Day quarterback. And. And he's below the field Stroud playmaking level, but he is somewhat significantly above them in the not giving it away turnover level. And so it's a particular style of play that act like that actually is not what we've seen because as much as. But Ryan always says, what's the number one most important thing? Take care of the ball for a quarterback, that's not what they've been best at. They're almost all playmakers and he's a pretty darn good playmaker, but he takes care of the ball at an elite level. And then what we were talking about like on the Heisman show is what show are we doing? What was that show where we talked about Julian saying what show was that? I can't even remember what that show was. Wasn't a Heisman show. What was it? Was it just like, hey, we're talking to Julian sand show. I think it was. We just talked to one on Wednesday and we were like, hey, let's talk about that. He Absolutely. He's going, he's planning to take that next, next step as a playmaker and the step is there. But if he can maintain this type of ball caretaking and improve his playmaking. Holy moly. And it's possible it starts not in 2026, but in this playoff run.

[D]

It. Yeah, it's definitely possible. I'm just looking to see. Yeah, see, I mean like CJ saw a little bit of an uptick in second turnover where he plays in his second year. I'm sure we'll see that from Julian. I think it's the kind of thing that comes with the maturation of a quarterback when you're just more comfortable making some different kinds of throws. Right. So yeah, whatever we're talking about here with Julian, he may, he may lose a little bit of as he progresses into next season, but I think with that he'll also gain some more of the playmaking stuff too. Right. So like there's always. As long as they're sort of like an equilibrium, that's, that's kind of all that matters. So I think you'll see both continue, continue to rise a little bit. But he is, yeah, he's a different style of, of quarterback. I was looking at the efficiency just like the whatever the passing efficiency on CFB stats, college like passer rating. He is second amongst day QBs. 20, 2021. Stroud is first. Okay, 2021, Stratus first. Julian this year is second. And Fields in 2019 was close which is interesting because it's like they're all like all in their first years. They were more efficient players in their first years. So I do like, I think you'll see the, the efficiency perhaps dip a little bit. But yeah, I think it'll be in service of something better for Julian. But right now as a, as a young quarterback, because if he were just like, I don't think he's like a, I don't think he's a check down merchant. I think he probably checks it down a little too often sometimes. But I don't think he lives that way. He can still make a big time throw. He can still make throws outside of, outside of the pocket, outside of structure. I saw like the thing that they put up during the Heisman ceremony which I, I actually hadn't realized. But like it Was like his completion percentage like in the pocket, out of the pocket, on the move and on deep throws like he's number one in all of them. So it's not like, it's not like he's merely a guy who's like super accurate when he's in the pocket and then everything breaks apart when he's not. So he's got some more game to him than me maybe than like a low turnover worthy play number may suggest.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

But I, I do think you'll continue to see that grow and maybe the turnover where the plays go up with it. But I think that's an okay trade off.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like the low turnover play guy of the recent years that we've talked a ton about is Drew Aller. And I felt Drew Aller either didn't have the receivers or just would not let it rip in a way to go make a play. And I don't get that sense with Julian sand at all.

[D]

Not, not to that level. Not even close to that level. Like, like there's still a little bit of. I don't know if timidness is the right word because I think he's confident. Caution I think is probably, maybe they're the same thing, I don't know. But no, I don't think so. I don't think he's lacking for confidence in his abilities to make throws. I think he's just like having, you know, a three second conversation in his head as the plays developing, like what's the smartest thing to do right here?

[B]

I think timidness comes from fear and caution comes from intelligence. Yeah, caution. You have to talk yourself through your brain. Your brain is like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And then you have to have like the devil on your shoulder of the shoulder of your brain being like, come on just like once, let it rip for once. But timidness is like, I'm not sure what I'm seeing. Check down. And I, I don't get that sense with him at all. I think he is at times maybe too smart for his own good, but actually as a first year starter and second year college football player, he's probably exactly what you want to be. But then he will take that next step and I think if Ryan Day were here, he would reach through the screen and strangle me for saying too smart for your own good. It's like, oh, our quarterback's too intelligent, he's too careful with the ball. He has the second best turnover worthy play percentage in, in the power four and you're like, why is this going up? It's like it's, it's insane. So. And the funny thing is I feel like people watching and listening to this be like, wow, I'm surprised by that because I can remember his picks and it's like, yeah, I know because there's like five of them. Like you could remember them all. You remember the Purdue throwing back across his body. You remember the Michigan one, you remember the Indiana one. But the also the thing that also with a guy like this, I don't, I don't think he has a single. I hit a linebacker in the chest and he dropped it play this year, which is what a turnover worthy play is where you make the mistake and then you're at the mercy of the person. Are they going to make you pay for it or not? And there's a lot of quarterbacks who maybe they don't have huge interception numbers and it's just because they got lucky that they threw it to defenders with bad hands.

[D]

Yeah, I'm looking like at the kind of like the quarterbacks are sort of like in his neighborhood of Turner turnover with turnover worthy play percentage. So his percentage is 1.5% which it's insane. Which is second best. But like any. I just like, like anybody who's like three or under, he's kind of where all the other good guys are in terms of big time throws to balance that out. Right. Like the best in that category is Dante Moore who's got 24 big time throws and eight turnover worthy plays. Brendan Sworesby is like 23 7, Fernando Mendoza's 219 and, and sans 19 6. So it's not like, it's not like if you compare like. All right, give me the list of guys who are similarly good at like not putting the ball in harm's way. Do they also have like 15 more big time throws than Julian? And the answer is no. It's like they have like no four or five more. Right?

[B]

No, you're right. And like for instance, big time throws, Julian saying this year 19. Kyle McCord in 202318 similar turnover worthy plays, Julian saying 6, Kyle McCord 15. So it's about your balance, right? And there is some of this stuff and this is like the other good reason that we didn't go through and like let's rank Ryan Day's quarterbacks who you wish you could take it because it just reignites the Justin Field CJ Stroud debate. Like who is the better Ohio State quarterback, which is impossible. Oh, impossible. Ohio State debates for the off season impossible. Like one of those where budget. What's that I'm gonna put on? I'm writing it on a piece of paper that I'm gonna throw away. So that's better that you're putting in the digital budget. Thank you.

[A]

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[B]

Toughness, gross sacrifices.

[C]

Everything is got all that day.

[D]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[C]

Be physical, be flat. We are the winner.

[E]

T takes on Ole Miss, followed by James Madison in Oregon.

[B]

It's time to bring it first round.

[E]

Coverage of the College Football Playoffs presented by allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO. Max, are you ready?

[C]

Let's go.

[B]

Fields and Stroud are they're back to back, but they're so different. But they're so great. They're almost the ideal encapsulation of that style of quarterback. And saying obviously is closer to Stroud. Saying has been my comparison or Stroud's been my comparison for saying from the start just as a shorthand. But they're not exactly the same. Right. And so you know, obviously CJ's like probably three inches taller is where you start. But also just like I think the way they, they handle things on and off the field and I think what's, what they have in common is that they're both incredibly intelligent and they both can hit tight windows, but they're not the same. And so I do think the other thing for a little bit of a smaller quarterback, when you think about like Baker Mayfield, Bryce Young, Young did not run a lot. Young did. Young did not run. Young was not a running quarterback in college. But I think maybe they both could be scooty when necessary. And I do think the, the say an uptick in scootiness will be interesting to see. As you have talked about scrambling with purpose, not just scrambling to get away or scrambling to keep a play alive, but scrambling to put your foot in the ground and say there's 70 yards to get right there. I'm going to go get it. That is also something. But it is just like you can, you can see it all Here. But the, but the bottom line of this is the baseline that he has laid down this year. And that's why I find him to be an sort of an interesting quarterback in almost his blandness. And, and I, and I mean blandness and like, the guy just does his job, right? He does his job again and again and again, but then you can, like, he'll rip it when. At times when he needs to. But you can see what's there. You can see exactly where more could come while having every reason to expect that it will. And it's like, why hasn't it happened yet? It's like, because he's, this is his second year in college. He's a first year starting quarterback. That's the only reason it, like. And holding him back is not the right phrase, but like, well, why hasn't he done it? Yes, because he's young. That's the only reason he hasn't done it yet. But I think he will. And it might start on December 31st.

[D]

Yeah, I, I think he will too. I, I think we'll start to see. I don't know if we'll see the, like the, you know, the fully formed product on December 31st or really anything close to that at any point before this season ends, but I, I think you'll, I think you'll see a jump. Like, I think you will notice.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

He's, you know, spent three weeks thinking about how this season went and some of the areas where he can grow and, and put some of that growth on display against Texas A M or Miami, whoever it is, and then moving on after that, presumably so. And then who knows what he might look like next year. It was interesting to me. Like, when you, when you talk to him when we did the Heisman Trophy stuff, like the fact that he was even, you know, he's not looking ahead to next year, but I think it's just like understanding, like the growth process was like, yeah, they're like, you know, I got my. A checklist of things that I'd like to improve upon and you're not going to check them all off before the end of this season. But like, think about what he can get into next year too, especially like with Jeremiah coming back. Right. So he, he's, he's really good. Like, there, there are. What's the right way to say it? Like, if you want to make the comparison. Like, a lot of, I feel like a lot of what Justin got done in year one was maybe not a lot of it, but like, he was helped tremendously just by being like a freak of an athlete, being able to run, obviously, being able to really drive the ball down the field, throw, throw it on the move, all those kind of stuff, all those kinds of things. I think Julian just doesn't have that. So, like, he has to make up for it. But having like a really good feel for the game and I think he, I think you see that from him and it can only get. Get better. So I don't, like, I, I guess I would understand, like there, there are times because, you know, everyone can watch a game and pick out three or four throws that you wish had gone a little differently. And I'm sure that Julian does the same. But I think it just comes with the territory of being a young quarterback. And, and I've said this before about him, I just don't know that he's a guy that, that repeats mistakes. And as long as he can, like kind of stay in that mode, I think he's just going to keep getting.

[B]

Better and better feel for the game. Justin Field sacks first year as a starter 31. Julian saying 11. So which again was I would let Justin Fields hold the ball all day because the longer he holds it, the more chance something spectacular.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But also he would take five sacks in a game sometimes.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So it's just the trade off of how you play, how the style of play, but also a couple of those plays that like Julian did not take the shot to Brandon Ennis or Julian did not take the shot to Jeremiah against Texas or take the Max Claire shot. Justin would have taken them.

[D]

He would have taken those shots.

[B]

Right. But he also knowing that he can take those shots, he would have held in and wanted to take another shot. And I got sacked on a play that Julian took a check down to Bo Jackson. Right. So it's.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Everybody has strengths and weaknesses. Okay.

[D]

Justin was not shy about throwing it down the field early on. That shy.

[B]

Rating 1 to 100. We do it for every position group. Subscribers. Where do you think they're at? Landis? This is our Substack subscribers. If you want to be able to vote stuff like this, you can come join us on Substack. Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com One to one I think they.

[D]

Were at a 92.

[B]

87.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

It's a little bit of a hard grader. I also wanted like, do you think the presidential package factors into this at all? It's like, it's great that Lincoln Keenholtz is there. Maybe if they used him a little Bit part of the quarterback. You get a little present, a little more press package in there. Maybe you get in the 90s.

[D]

We asked them for the rating after. Not his best game. So we did.

[B]

Yeah. We didn't ask after the Michigan game.

[D]

After Michigan, the approval ratings might be 100.

[B]

Yeah, we're gonna get. We see him press package in the playoff or. No.

[D]

I don't know. I was thinking, actually thinking about this before we started. So Lincoln, Lincoln strikes me as someone who if he does transfer and it would be my guess that he does like, would stick it out with Ohio State. Right. But are you, if you're Ohio State, are you building anything around Lincoln Keenholz? If you're the slightest bit unsure about that.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[D]

And the first game will be before the portal opens, but.

[B]

Or if you want to make sure that he stays. Do you tell him we got. You're gonna play. Don't go anywhere. You're playing in the semis. Let me show you the package.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think he'd, I think he'd say no matter what. I just like, I don't. Yeah.

[B]

Penn State's back. So back left last year. It's not about the players, about the situation, but. Yeah, so 87 for the, the subscribers.

[D]

I, I think you might see a little bit of Lincoln. Lincoln run game in the playoff.

[B]

Well, but in the Rutgers game, they were press packaging up and down the field and I was like, we're seeing it against Michigan. And you were like, no, we're not. And you were right.

[D]

Well too. They did, they did trot him out onto the field during the longest goal to go situation ever in the first half of that game. One of the plays like, they, they brought Lincoln out and then I think maybe it was when they went to review on the Donaldson play. They were going to put Lincoln in and then they took him back off the field. So he never actually played. But they were gonna, they were gonna send them out there at one point. So. Yeah, I don't, I, I, they just left too many points on the board, I think, to not explore the idea. So I think, I think we'll see a little bit of it. Yeah, my score, I, I think I'd go sub 90, if only to acknowledge, like, I think Julian's very good, but can still get significantly better. So I'll say 89.

[B]

Okay. That's also what I said. I mean it's, it's hard. It's a ridiculously high bar. But 88 as an average is pretty good. So quarterbacks go down as an 88. We'll continue the position previews. If you want to go see our [e-mail] buy some stuff over there for Christmas, use the code BAD20. You'll get 20 off your first order. Like subscribe Tell a friend about the Bill of Doug show position previews rolling out. Make sure you did not miss our around the Shoe with Stefan Kreischnik and Stephen Means from cleveland.com and Buckeye Talk, who joined us for a fantastic episode that went up on Monday evening. So make sure you catch on that one. And then we'll just keep dropping stuff in here as we see fit. Landis so we appreciate the fine folks for tuning in, watching and listening. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug lamarise, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.

[A]

Primal Kitchen is known for outrageously delicious sauces and condiments. And now their pure avocado oil can be a staple in your kitchen, too. With its high smoke point, neutral flavor and healthy fats, it's perfect for grilling, baking, sauteing, marinating, whatever you're cooking. Primal Kitchen pure avocado oil gets the job done. Pure, quality, tested and trusted. Grab a bottle at Walmart stores nationwide or [e-mail] the College Football Playoff is everything.

[B]

Toughness, rolls, sacrifices.

[C]

Were I 50 everything you got all day today.

[D]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[C]

Keep physical, keep playing. We are the winner.

[E]

Taine takes on Ole Miss, followed by James Madison in Oregon.

[B]

It's time to bring it first round.

[E]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented by all state Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO. Max, are you ready?

[C]

Let's get him.