Ohio State receiver grades: Are Jeremiah Smith & Carnell Tate the best OSU WR combo ever?

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Episode: Ohio State receiver grades: Are Jeremiah Smith & Carnell Tate the best OSU WR combo ever?
Date: December 18, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises & Bill Landis (Blue Wire)

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Episode Overview

This episode is dedicated to a deep dive into the 2025 Ohio State wide receiver room, with special focus on whether the current duo of Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate could be the greatest receiver tandem in OSU history. Doug and Bill analyze stats, historical comparisons, team usage patterns, and future outlooks for the Buckeye receiver corps, providing engaging and informed banter as they work through the question. They also grade the position group and discuss implications for the coming seasons.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Are Jeremiah Smith & Carnell Tate the Best OSU WR Duo Ever?

• Historical Comparisons:

  • Doug presents a list of legendary pairs, including Santonio Holmes/Ted Ginn Jr. (2005) and the 2021 group featuring JSN, Garrett Wilson, and Chris Olave.
  • Stats from previous combos are noted:
    • Holmes and Ginn Jr. (2005): 1,780 combined yards (old era, fewer games)
    • JSN/Wilson/Olave (2021): 2,664 yards for the top two
    • Marvin Harrison Jr. / Emeka Egbuka (2022): 2,414 yards

• Current Season Context:

  • Smith and Tate, despite missed games (Tate missed 3, Smith 1 + partial), have amassed 1,924 yards with potentially 3 games left.

• Outside Perspective:

  • Penn State interim coach Terry Smith declared them "the two best" he's ever seen after witnessing both go over 120 yards and score touchdowns in the same game ([06:00]).

    “These are the two best. Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith.”
    — Terry Smith (as recounted by Doug, [05:46])

• Hosts’ Verdict:

  • Bill: “If they're at their best and healthiest, I probably would take them. They're so big and so fast—outliers compared to the rest. I think I would take this tandem.” ([06:30])
  • Doug: “They’re both pure number one receivers who can do it all… I don’t think they get in each other’s way at all. I think they help each other.” ([09:07])

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2. Stylistic Breakdown & Complementary Skills

• Both are physically dominant and excel at similar things but blend well together. Carnell is a bit more of a deep threat, Jeremiah developing as a “possession receiver.”

• Jeremiah Smith has 48 first downs; Carnell Tate has 33 (with fewer games).

• They don't cannibalize each other’s production; rather, they open up opportunities for one another.

  “The touchdown that Carnell scored [vs. Michigan] came in part because Jeremiah took some attention away from him.”
  — Bill Landis ([10:36])

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3. Slot Receiver & Third Target Analysis

• Current Third Receiver:

  • Brandon Inniss averages 3 targets/game—lower than many previous years, signaling a heavier focus on the top two.
  • Historical context shows OSU has had years with similarly light third-receiver involvement, especially in 2020.

• Scheme and Personnel Usage:

  • More use of 12 personnel (2 TEs) may partially be due to lack of a dynamic slot threat.
  • Bill: "It is a bit of an issue that the offense doesn't have a little more pop out of the slot receiver position." ([16:00])

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4. Scheme, Production, and Yards After Catch (YAC)

• OSU’s receivers have dropped very few passes this year (only four as a group on 896 routes), an elite number.

• YAC is surprisingly average for OSU (47th overall in FBS, 55th among WRs).

  • Doug and Bill question why the offense doesn't scheme more throws to receivers on the move over the middle, a past staple with Ryan Day.

  “They just have, like, at times it’s felt like maybe the degree of difficulty with some of the passing offense is a little higher than it needs to be…they get a little shot heavy sometimes.”
  — Bill Landis ([21:28])

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5. Positional Depth & the “Room” Beyond the Top Two

• Depth is somewhat lacking; when forced to play backups (e.g., vs. Rutgers), the drop-off was obvious.

• Inniss has made big catches (notably against Michigan), but hosts note his impact is more intangible (leadership, reliability) than explosive.

• Substantial concern about lack of proven young playmakers poised for "next man up."

  “We've seen nothing from the rest of the room, which is kind of a bummer, and also potentially a fairly large issue.”
  — Bill Landis ([29:45])

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6. Grading the Receiver Room (1–100 Scale)

• Substack Subscribers: 91
• Doug: 94
• Bill: 88

  • Doug justifies the high grade: “When they are healthy, we think they are the best receiver combo in Ohio State history…they are the engine of the offense when healthy and being used correctly.” ([30:01])

  • Bill dings for lack of depth: “I just don't know. If you ask Brian Hartline or Ryan Day, is this room up to the standard, you think they'd say yes?” ([34:22])

    “If you're top two…are both going to be top ten NFL draft picks…then they mostly throw to them…and [the coaches] have done a good job of using these guys.” — Doug Lesmerises ([30:25])

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7. Future Outlook & The 'Zenith' Conversation

• Doug and Bill see this as possibly the highwater mark due to:

  • Jeremiah Smith being a “generational” talent.
  • Brian Hartline leaving as WR coach.

• They draw a parallel to Chase Young at DE: units can remain “great” after a true superstar departs, even if they’re never quite as transcendent again.

  “He's the zenith…How do you get better than Jeremiah Smith?…I just think it's real talk.”
  — Doug Lesmerises ([40:21])

• Portal & Next Pairings:

  • Odds of an elite transfer arriving are seen as "non-zero" but unlikely unless a truly special player wants in (e.g., Cam Coleman).

  • Chris Henry Jr. may have the inside track at pairing with Jeremiah Smith in 2026, with Doug and Bill both noting that OSU will remain a WR destination but won't easily replicate this level.

    “There’s always a final boss. Jeremiah truly is that…Will anybody ever quite hold a candle to that? Possibly not.”
    — Bill Landis ([37:04])

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Notable Quotes & Time Stamps

• On historical greatness:

  “These are the two best. Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith.”
  — Penn State interim coach, as relayed by Doug ([05:46])

• On their complementary nature:

  “They don’t get in each other’s way at all. I think they help each other.”
  — Doug ([09:07])

• On slot/third WR issues:

  “It is a bit of an issue that the offense doesn’t have a little more pop out of the slot receiver position.”
  — Bill ([16:00])

• On YAC and scheme:

  “They just have, like, at times it’s felt like maybe the degree of difficulty with some of the passing offense is a little higher than it needs to be…they get a little shot heavy sometimes.”
  — Bill ([21:28])

• On positional depth:

  “We’ve seen nothing from the rest of the room...it's kind of a bummer, and also potentially a fairly large issue.”
  — Bill ([29:45])

• On historical context:

  “He is the zenith. How do you get better than Jeremiah Smith?…But I also just think it's real talk.”
  — Doug ([40:21])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Big Question Posed: [02:01–05:38]
• Statistical & Historical Comparison: [05:38–07:50]
• Physical/Stylistic Analysis of Tate & Smith: [07:08–09:07]
• Effects of Duo on Each Other: [09:07–10:36]
• Slot/3rd WR Target Distribution: [11:02–15:05]
• RPO/Slot/12 Personnel Usage: [15:05–17:13]
• Middle-of-the-Field Passing & YAC Stats: [17:57–22:55]
• Room Depth and Backup Performance: [22:55–27:49]
• Grading the WR Room: [27:49–34:13]
• Future Outlook & Hartline Departure Impact: [36:54–44:32]
• Potential Transfer Additions: [42:41–44:44]
• Jeremiah Smith/Chris Henry Jr. Dynamic: [45:09–45:52]

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Episode Takeaways

• Smith & Tate are possibly the top WR duo in Ohio State history, with a rare combo of production and physical dominance.
• Receiver room depth and the relative absence of slot production lower the overall grade slightly, but the “ones” are so elite it doesn’t matter much in practice.
• YAC (yards after catch) numbers are surprisingly pedestrian for such a vaunted WR room, raising schematic questions about the offense's use of the middle of the field.
• This era—especially with Jeremiah Smith—may stand as the “zenith” for OSU WRs, with even future iterations struggling to match this level despite remaining well above national norms.
• The focus now is on enjoying a true ‘golden age’ of Buckeye receiver play and understanding that generational talents make for truly special moments—which, as the hosts say, may not come around again soon.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Doug Les Maurice]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Douglas Maurice and Bill Landis and we are doing receivers position group breakdowns. They continue. We're doing all 10 position groups bill, and this one's pretty good. So we I want to ask some big picture questions as we always do. We're going to have our overall 1 to 100 ratings for what I think, what you think, what our sub stack subscribers think and just like very quickly if you want to join us on Substack and get the vote and stuff like this. You get two extra shows podcasts a week that are only for substack subscribers which people seem to like. You get to send us questions and interact that way plus all the written stuff. That's billandougosu.substack.com Bill Landis is this possibly the greatest Ohio State receiver duo ever with the seasons that Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate are having in 2025.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, man. Yeah, possibly. Yeah, sure. I'm trying to think.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I got a list.

[Bill Landis]

Okay, give. Yeah, I mean, I don't. Is there anything that like predates Brian Hartline that makes the list?

[Doug Les Maurice]

So it's hard. And, and I apologize in advance, I did not go into the way back archives like the way way back, as people know, because I'm a self centered and. And occasionally. What's the other word? Self centered now just self centered. I sometimes start Ohio State history with my first year on the beat. So the only, the only one pre Brian Heartline I included was San Antonio Holmes and Ted Ginn Jr. In 2005, which is two first rounders. And also Anthony Gonzalez was on that team and he also became a first rounder. So like that's. If we're doing trios, you start having that discussion and that kind of thing. But the stats are hard because, you know, first of all we're now into a situation with the Big Ten championship game and the playoff that you just like cumulative stats. You're building things up. But also Ohio State just played differently. So in 2005, San Antonio Holmes and Ted Gyn Jr combined for 1,780 receiving yards, which is great, but is not where we're talking now with what these guys do. Right. So I think we have that understanding. Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate right now with CARNELL Tate missing three games and Jeremiah Smith missing one and this whole potentially three more games ahead of them have 1924 receiving yards. Right. So, but, so this is not put it in the history books definitive, but it's what Doug wrote on a piece of notebook paper before he started the show. 2005, San Antonio Holmes Tedkin Jr. 2021, which is like the, the, the difficult year because it's three. Because I don't know if you'll ever get better than the JSN Garrett Wilson Chris Olave trio where Wilson and Olave didn't play in the Rose bowl. And Jackson Smith and Jigba went nuts. And then Marv also went nuts as your fourth. Like it's just ridiculous. But the top two, Jackson Smith and Jigman, Garrett Wilson, 2664 receiving yards that year. 2022. Marvin Ameca, 24, 14 receiving yards last year. JJ and a Mecca two, 326 receiving yards. So and, and that Tate and Smith are on the cusp of 2000 with three games left to play.

[Bill Landis]

Terry, actually it's four games. It's almost five games missed because Jeremiah only played what, 20 something snaps against UCLA.

[Doug Les Maurice]

So Terry Smith, the Penn State interim coach, like started this discussion by saying, I know there have been a lot of receivers that have come through Ohio State, but these are the two best. Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith, which that set off alarm Bel, right? Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

And as you pointed out, that was maybe not a peak, but like, because a peak implies like you maybe you couldn't get higher. It's like so far off that Penn State game. Carnell Tate, five catches for 124 and a touchdown. Jeremiah Smith, six catches for 123 and two touchdowns. So Terry Smith saw these two guys at their most dangerous and robust and came off the field and said, I've never seen anything better at Ohio State than these two. So I'm not invalidating that at all. It might be right. But do you think it's right?

[Bill Landis]

I. I think these two, if they're at their best and they're healthiest, I think I probably would take them. Yeah. Because there's the, there's the production, but then there's also just sort of like the, the physical component. They're just so hard to cover. Like they're, they're just so big and so fast and outliers, I think in a lot of ways compared to some of the other Ohio State receivers of, of this most recent era. Like, the exception is Marvin because he was pretty big too. But for Jeremiah and Carnell to just be sort of like as physically dominant as they are, in addition to being highly productive, I do think I would take this tandem. Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Man, it's hard. It's hard. This would be a fun. Like I, I think we could have some fun with some kind of off season wide receiver something. Right. Some trying to rig them or draft them or something. One of the things I guess we've sort of discussed is we've had versions of this discussion in the past is like if you throw in a guy like a Mecca Buka as a slot and that is sort of like a complimentary guy to whether it's Marv, whether it's jj, that's kind of thing. But I do think Carnell and Jeremiah are similar, but yet they also seem complementary. They don't seem duplicative to me. Right. That I, I feels like play very well together.

[Bill Landis]

They definitely play well together. But I, I guess I would say maybe stylistically they are probably more similar than they are different. Right. You just kind of like spark something in my Mind there with, like, the. The Ameca thing.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

It's. If you're really having this conversation and trying to decide which one you like best, they're all excellent. Might you lean toward. We got one guy who does this stuff. We got another guy who does this stuff.

[Doug Les Maurice]

And.

[Bill Landis]

And like, I. And that's kind of what it was like with Jeremiah and a Mecca, because a Mecca is playing out of the slot. You can throw him the ball over the middle. You get on the ball shorter. There's after the catch stuff. There's, like, run game components involved with that, too. Like, he's a different kind of blocker if you want to take it that far. Right. So maybe that would be something that somehow takes away from. From this current tandem is that they. Jeremiah and Carnot, I think, do tend to do pretty similar things. They're just both really good at it. And because there are. They're almost like mirrors of each other on the other side, like, on the opposite sides of the field, which I would imagine is pretty difficult to cover for for a defense. But I do think there could be an argument for kind of mixing up the. The flavors of receivers in a different way, which would maybe point you toward, like, one dynamic outside guy and one dynamic inside guy.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I do think they're both ones, right?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Carnell Tate is being projected now as, like, the fifth pick in the draft. You don't pick a guy to be a number two receiver and have him as the number five pick in the draft. They're both ones. I do think Jeremiah, as we've, like, Carnell's been maybe just a little bit more of the shot down the field guy, whether. I don't know if that skill or circumstance or coverage, the way that defense is aligned, but it is. I do think it's a little bit of a credit to Jeremiah. The. Jeremiah Smith has kind of at times become Ohio State's possession receiver. Like, he has more. He, I think, has 48 first downs on the season, and Carnell has 33, which is both very good. And also Carnell missed three games. But, like, Jeremiah has sort of turned into that just because of the way things have worked out, because Carnell Tate is really good at running by people and going down the field, but also so is Jeremiah Smith. But I do think they are, because sometimes two ones, I think, can get in each other's way. Have you ever felt like Nate and JJ have gotten in each other's way at all this season? Like, when it's on the field, not in terms of accruing stats or getting awards?

[Bill Landis]

No, no. I think they felt they've helped each other. And I bet Jeremiah would probably tell you, I guess he only had to play like, a game and a quarter without Carnell, but I bet it felt different not, not having, not having him out there. And then you kind of even, you saw, like, sort of come back to the forefront, the Michigan game.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

That the touchdown that Carnell scored came in part because Jeremiah took some attention away from him. And, and Jeremiah's probably done that more for Carnell than the opposite, but the opposite has happened too. So. No, I don't, I don't think they get in each other's way at all. The, Yeah, I mean, the, the bigger conversation is why aren't they always on the field together? I think. Right. People are, people are asking themselves. After the Indiana game.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I, I, I, Part of me wonders if this is right. I was just looking like 20, 21, that, that amazing year where Jackson Smith and Jacob Garrett, Wilson and Chris Olava each wound up with more than 100 targets each. And they almost all got to a thousand yards. A lot. It was a little short by PFF drops in that year. Wilson and Jigba, Smith and Jigba each had six and A. Lava had five by pff. They have JJ with two drops, which is both in the Texas game, and Carnell Tate with none.

[Bill Landis]

So that, Yeah, I was, I was, I looked that up too. And I, I looked at. So that's on pff. I also looked at Sports Info Solutions.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

And they have, they have Ohio State's receivers as, as having run 896 routes this year with only four drops. The, the entire position group, and the only other teams like that are, that have fewer drops in Ohio State are like service academies who have like 200 routes run compared to Ohio State's 900 routes run.

[Doug Les Maurice]

It's remarkable. Again, this is a little bit of like, the ceiling, of course, is there, but sometimes when you have guys making circus catches, then you run into like, oh, they dropped the routine one. It's like, they don't drop the routine one. JJ dropped two against Texas. Everybody was like, what's going on? And he dropped them all the rest.

[Bill Landis]

Of the year, which he did last year too. Right. Didn't they drop, like, his first target again in the first game of the season and it didn't drop another one the rest of the year? He only had one last year, I think.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah, I think that's right. Okay. So that, that's one of the three things that I wanted to cover. Are they the best combo in Ohio State history? Aggregators mark it down. Bill Landis says yes. Okay, two. 98 targets for Jeremiah Smith in 12 games. 58 targets for Carnell Tate in 10 games. And we're just talking the receiver position. Brandon Innis, 39 targets in 13 games. And as we talk about a position group, right, it's more than two people at receiver. I looked at the last like in the Ryan Day era, the number three wide receiver on the team in terms of targets. How many targets per game did they average? Very quickly. 2025, Brandon Ennis, three targets per game. 2024, Carnell Tate, four and a half targets. 2020. Fleming, 3.4 targets. 2022, Julian Fleming, 4.7 targets. 2021. When Chris Olave is your third receiver, 8.4 targets. I feel like we need to go back and like re watch 2021 and these three receivers and like again, like get our heads around it again. How these guys did this just absolutely ridiculous. Doesn't really count because it's. It was a one done thing. 2020, Julian Fleming, 1.9 targets per game. When that was basically Wilson and Olave were the entire passing offense and Julian Fleming were. And Jameson Williams like were like got one target a game. And then Ben Victor, 2019, 3.6 targets. So, so here's my main thing. Brandon Ennis in the Ryan Day era is the second lowest. The only other one is 2020 when it was basically like they didn't have a third receiver. It's not that far below like 2023 when it was, you know, like, like two guys getting leaned on a ton with Marv. And then that was a year Mecca was hurt a little bit. Right. But still they didn't really throw to a third guy very much. How do we take this all into account when we're trying to evaluate something like a position group? I think we talked about this with some other things we, I think we talked about on the defensive line. It's like, oh, they don't rotate much. It's like, oh, you mean they have the best players on the field all the time? O like, oh no, they throw to their two best receivers who are both first round picks, who are both top ten picks. They throw to them constantly. Oh no. The third receiver only averages three targets a game. Is that actually an issue?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, maybe a small one. Like I don't, I don't know that it's a. It's changed the offense. Right. I think, I think that much is true and I guess there's like a, you know, there's a chicken and egg conversation there. But like, are they playing. Are they playing more 12 personnel because they wanted to so they went out and got Max Claire and brought him in because they had that specific idea in mind or are they playing more 12 personnel because they just don't think they're that dynamic at the slot receiver position? And, and they would prefer to be, but they're not. So this, this is them like working around it. I, I don't, I don't know the answer to that. But. But I, you know, and it's probably, probably truth in both ideas, I suppose, but I think it is a bit of an issue that the offense doesn't have a little more pop out of the. Out of the slot receiver position. Yeah.

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[Doug Les Maurice]

It'S all in one. Clorox Toilet Wand it's all in one. Hey, what does all in one mean? The Caddy, the wand, the preloaded pad. There's a cleaner in there inside the pad. So Clorox Toilet Wand is all I need to clean a toilet. You don't need a bottle of solution to get into this toilet revolution. Clorox Clean feels good. Use as directed. Do you think it ne like, do you think it negatively affects the offense in a way that affects football, affects winning?

[Bill Landis]

I think it makes the out like it probably increases the difficulty on offense a little bit. It does feel like I haven't looked at this. It's just like more anecdotal, I guess, from watching games. Like the middle of the field doesn't. Doesn't seem like it's used a whole lot. It seems like a lot of Ohio State's passing offenses outside and down the field and even like when this like the ball gets the max Claire or whatever, like it's in the flats a lot. Right. So I, I think maybe there, there's an area of the field there in the short and intermediate middle that Ohio State probably could attack better if it had A better slot receiver, sure. But also like Jeremiah Smith and Cardinal taken do those things too. They just kind of. Yeah. Don't have them running those routes very much.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I, I also wonder sometimes with the middle of the field if that's just. I felt like in 2019 they didn't throw the ball in the middle field very much with Justin Fields. And I think that's just a more difficult thing to diagnose and kind of thread the needle in there sometimes for a younger quarterback. And if you're throwing free money outs and you're taking some deep shots and then you're taking stuff in the flat and check downs. Right. Like you just stay out of the danger zone. I think that could be related to young quarterback stuff as well. I think they probably play off each other that if a Mecca Buko is here as a super veteran slot guy and it was just like. Or, or Jackson, Smith and Jigba where it's like Jackson's mixing jig but he goes knows exactly what to do. If it's man, if it's zone, do you keep running? Do you settle down? Do you give your quarterback a nice window to throw to and you make a young quarterback feel comfortable throwing in the middle of the field because you have a super weapon in the slot. So I, I think that could happen. But I think that the combination of first year starting quarterback and not a super weapon in the slot means you might just like stay out of there. And I think it might be somewhat, at least somewhat quarterback related as well.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, and he's a, you know, he's a smaller quarterback too, so that might even contribute to it a little more. Yeah, I think that. I think that's right. I don't. There is a thing, like, I haven't really quite wrap my head around how to ask it but. But I've seen people mention it and kind of like increasingly mentioning it, mention it throughout the season that Ohio State just does not seem to have a lot of passing concepts where guys are catching the ball on the run over the middle of the field with a chance to turn it into an explosive play. Like when they get an explosive play, it's because Carnell and Jeremiah have already caught the ball 40 yards down the field. And like if you look at the yak numbers for Ohio State, they're like middle of the pack nationally just in raw yards after the catch. So it's not like, it's not like they're bad. But remember like, like Ryan Day's arrival at Ohio State was we're gonna run mesh 17 times a game and get these guys in space and people are going to be chasing them and everything's going to be explosive and defenses adapt to that, certainly. But I do. I think there's probably more to tap into with the passing game if they started incorporating some more of that stuff. And I don't know why they don't do it. If it's because they don't have a super dynamic slot guy with it with, like, real Juice or. I don't know, they don't want to expose Carnell or Jeremiah to getting decked over the middle on some of those plays. Like, I guess there's. There could be sound reasoning for why they don't do it, but I've. I've certainly felt like it's noticeable, too, that a lot of Ohio State stuff is, like, outside and guys, like, kind of catching a ball at a standstill, and it's just like. And it's like, it's great. They have it. They have a very good passing offense. I'm not saying it's bad, but just wondering if there's, like, a little more to tap into if they did some different stuff.

[Doug Les Maurice]

So I don't know if people can tell. What we have done here is we have the 10 position groups and we divided them up and I took the lead on five, and you took the lead on five. But as we sat down to record here for this episode, I got a wonderful surprise, which is Doug has the lead on receivers, but Bill accidentally did lead research on receivers before he realized it was Doug's group. So go ahead and dump what else you got before we move on to the other, like, discussion areas. I want to hit. I don't want to not use wonderful research.

[Bill Landis]

That was kind of the biggest thing, honestly, was the yards after the catch stuff. I didn't. I didn't dig too deep into it. It was just. I wanted to. I wanted to see where Ohio State ranked sort of in yards after the catch.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

Overall, they were 47th. If you isolate specifically in FBS, if you isolate specifically the receiver position or 55th. And that, like, that doesn't compute a little bit. Like, if you think about how Ohio's reputation for being wide receiver, you. And then like, they're 55th in anything related to receiver production is kind of strange. So I. I don't. I don't know what that means. I don't know what to make of it. Maybe. Maybe they do some different stuff in the. In the postseason to kind of get guys in space, let them run after the catch more because we like, you know, healthy Jeremiah can do that. We've seen him do that. I don't know that we've seen Cornell get a bunch of opportunities for that. And maybe if you're, you know, listing the 10 best things about Carnell Tate's game, maybe like run after the catches, like eighth. So maybe you don't, you wouldn't want to do that necessarily. But they just have like at times, at times it's felt like maybe the, the degree of difficulty with some of the passing offense is a little higher than it needs to be. Which is like another way of saying they get a little shot heavy sometimes and that. I don't know that I felt that really until the Indiana game, but it really stuck out in the Indiana game. And I just feel like there, there's, there's got to be like easier throws for Julian and easier catches and quicker routes for Jeremiah and Carnell, like those kind of situations for them to get into where they can still maintain that explosive element. But not everything is so dependent on your offensive line holding up for four seconds and like precision downfield passing.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I gotta say, I, I think this is right. We could have. I'll double check it with Tim. The great Tim. May I just. This sticks in my head for some reason. I think like the most analytical, not critical, but like constructive but analytical thing I ever read from Tim in the Columbus Dispatch before he retired was I think one time he wrote a piece, I think While Ted Ginn Jr was there about how Ohio State doesn't throw the ball to Ted Ginn Jr. So he can catch it when he's on the move and that they should do it more. And it was like Tim sort of breaking that down. They used to throw like a lot of standing still, like bubble screens to Ted Ginn Jr to standing flat footed on the edge and it's like, catch it now. Go. And I was like, oh yes, I can hear. We are, you know, 20 years later talking about you have these supreme athletes, maybe let them catch it on the move and see what happens. Smith and Jigba, Wilson And Alave in 21 did blow our minds and throw us off. I do think one of the things here, it's not like Ohio State's third receiver regularly is busting games open. Yeah, but I, I do think what happens sometimes, like for instance, Carnell Tate is illustrative of this is sometimes that third receiver is a young guy who has gone from not really playing to being a starter, but, but not yet being a primary weapon. But while they are the number three, you can see the future as like, oh, this guy's going to graduate to something. And I don't know that people view Brandon Ennis that way. Brandon Ennis is, is like a rock of the program. He is a leader, he is a captain, he is incredibly important to what Ohio State does. But I don't think people are sitting around saying, oh man, wait till 2026 and Brandon Ennis is going to go nuts. And I think if it was the exact same player, if it was Myelin Graham, Myelin Graham's what he is. Second year player, five star recruit playing the Brandon Ennis role with the Brandon in his stats, I think even if it was exactly the same in how it affected the offense this year, I think everybody might be more accepting of it because they would view it as a step to something the following year for the person in that role where that's not exactly how you see Brandon Ennis maybe maybe correctly, maybe incorrectly, but you know, like Julian Fleming and Jameson Williams and there's just been years where the third receiver hasn't done much and that's kind of how it is. And so I, I do think at times I felt like man, they're not getting a ton out of the third receiver. Although Brandon Innis I think has provided more to the offense in the second half of the season than the first half. But also there were other years they want national champ. They made the national championship game in 2020 throwing the two guys they did not like. Jameson Williams was just running down, was running go routes and getting ignored on every play. Right. They did. It's like they didn't have a third receiver in that offense in 2020 and they were the second best team in the country. So that also can happen with this team even with receiver rooms this good.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah it can. I think, I do think it is worth like pointing out that in this has made some big catches here down the stretch. Right. I think he's, he's been pretty reliable on third down. Had the touchdown cast against, against Michigan. Maybe he's a guy that can help Ohio State unlock some more red zone efficiency if they get need to throw the ball better down there. But I think like you know, the expectations were pretty high. They always are. For every Ohio State receiver, any five star guy who's just sort of like waiting in the wings to get his shot, the expectation is like you got it now do something with it. And that, that hasn't really hit that way with, with Ennis and there's also not. I, you know, I thought he might be a guy who can give you a little bit in the run game, like a Mecca. I thought he'd be a good run blocker and like by pff grade he's actually the worst, worst run blocker. So yeah, it's been a, I don't know, it's been a little bit of a letdown. I think he does a lot of intangible things for them like as a captain and a leader that, that shouldn't be ignored. But Ohio State's receiver room is also judged by, you know, how you, how you kind of change games. And I don't know that they, they get that from, from that position right now. And you know, I think, I think there probably were opportunities for some younger guys to do it and they didn't necessarily kind of take that and run with it either. So yeah, it is, it is very much a two man show right now.

[Doug Les Maurice]

2020. Chris Olave, 50 catches on 59 targets. 727 yards. Garrett Wilson, 43 catches on 58 targets. 723 yards. Of coast is of course is the COVID year so the stats are limited. So anyway, targets for the top two receivers, 59 and 58. Jameson Williams, 13 targets. Julian Fleming, 13 targets for the whole year. Jameson Williams, 154 receiving yards. The first two guys had over 700. The third guy had 154. Like that's how stark that drop off was. Just as a reminder, like half of.

[Bill Landis]

Them were in the Clemson game.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah, so, so let's. Yeah, that really was. So let's remind ourselves, let's go ahead and do the grades before we get to sort of the future question I want to ask about this receiver room. We do it from 1 to 100. 100 is perfect. Great, awesome 1 is. What is going on? Guess where our substack subscribers were on rating this receiver room?

[Bill Landis]

86.

[Doug Les Maurice]

80. 91.

[Bill Landis]

Okay, 91.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Where are you?

[Bill Landis]

88.

[Doug Les Maurice]

88. Okay.

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[Bill Landis]

The attention to detail is like none other.

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[Doug Les Maurice]

It's time to bring it first round.

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Coverage of the college football playoffs presented by allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Max, are you ready?

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[Doug Les Maurice]

All Month long.

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[Doug Les Maurice]

If they were. If Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith had zero injury issues and had played every meaningful snap the whole year, where would you be?

[Bill Landis]

Maybe slightly higher. Like a low 90.

[Doug Les Maurice]

The.

[Bill Landis]

The only thing I'm taking away is that like, we've, we just. We've seen nothing from the rest of the room.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Which is like, kind of a bummer. And also potentially a fairly large issue. Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

For this year. You mean overall?

[Bill Landis]

Like, no, not for the future. Mostly.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

So I've been all over the place with this. I'm going to land at 94 because I think I'm going to land that high. And it's one of those, is it what you want it to be or are you accepting, like, what it is and how it's happening? When they are healthy, we think they are the best receiver combo in Ohio State history, that the top two guys in this room are both going to be top 10 NFL draft picks and they are both pure number one receivers who can do it all. And then they mostly throw to them. And they are the engine of the offense when they are healthy and being used correctly. And I do think Ohio State has done a good job of using these guys. It is, it is not, you know that. Like, I think you've gotten a lot out of Jeremiah Smith for how talented he is and how much defense is lean toward him. You know, you have not let defenses dictate. I don't think. I do not think you've let defenses dictate. I think you've tried. The Ohio State's done a decent job of dictating two defenses. With Jeremiah Smith's uses. His targets are up there. Like, do you agree with that?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. 98 targets. Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah. That's pretty good. And so if you're, if you're top two, and I do think it's one of those, like, you know, we did it with the offensive line, we did it with the defensive line. It's like, well, let's go through all the positions and if you know it's five offensive linemen, what would you rate each one out of 20? I, I would not go through the three receiver spots and be like, okay, let's do out of 33 at each receiver spot. Like, what are you. Well, okay, the Tate Receiver spot, that's a 33 out of 33, and JJ's 33 out of 33. And then the slot spot is like a. A 20 out of 33. So then that puts me at an 86. Right. Because it's. Because I don't think the third receiver spot is as important as the first two, the way they are used. And. And even, like, I don't think. I think that is a reflection of the reality, but I also even think it's okay if that's the plan, that I don't think you have to have equal distribution. And we know how much Ohio State loves to use the slot receiver and they have. But I don't think it makes it clunky to not focus on the slot receiver spot that way. So then if I try to maybe just like diminish the impact of that role because that's what the reality is, then the other two guys are like, as good as it gets.

[Bill Landis]

Right?

[Doug Les Maurice]

They're as good as it gets. And then if you want to take like some small number of points off for health, I think that's reasonable because that's just what happened. But I do think maybe if you were like, what's a hundred receiver room look like? It's probably the JSN Olave Wilson receiver room. When those are your three guys. It's like, I don't know, 91 on those guys. It's like, no, you're not at a 91. That's 100 out of 100. That's as good as it gets.

[Bill Landis]

Well, it's. Be that. Like that. If you take that entire season. Yeah. Because it's like, they were great.

[Doug Les Maurice]

You're right.

[Bill Landis]

Throughout the season. And then Chris and Garrett didn't play. And then the guys who stepped up were great.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yes.

[Bill Landis]

That's 100. That's a hundred.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Because it's. It's ceiling and depth and distribution and everything. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And this is like, this has the greatness. No doubt about it, maybe the greatness more than any other receiver season has had. But the rest of the stuff's not there.

[Doug Les Maurice]

The rest of the stuff is not there. And it is odd because we, we could have been in a situation. It's a little bit like Justin Fields in 2019 when there was no backup quarterback. But we never had to find out. Right. That it was like, we knew. We knew there wasn't a backup quarterback, but it never really. Because he came off the field for a snap against Michigan and came back on and was fine. Right. You never really had to have proof of it. Maybe we would have gone through this season wondering. It's like, man, they don't really ever play those young receivers very much. And a couple times they've been on the field and blowouts, we don't really see anything. And then they had to put the depth out there against Rutgers and they did not. It's like they didn't have a receiver room. So we had proof of it. So we know. And so you're saying that is reflected to at least some degree in, in a rating like this? Because we are rating the whole room.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think it should be taken into account. I. I perhaps took it into account too much by going sub 90 with my grade. But I'm not.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I don't mean to yell at you about your grade.

[Bill Landis]

No, no. I think, I think what you. I think what you explained makes a lot of sense, but I just, I just don't know. Like, if you ask Brian Hartline or Ryan Day, is this room up to the standard, you think they'd say yes?

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[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I don't think they would either.

[Doug Les Maurice]

No. No. Which leads me to SO91 average for our three greats. The subscribers bill Doug if you want to get to do stuff like this Bill and Doug osu.substack you do have to pay for that. It's not free, but you can put your email in for free. But you can't get to do all the stuff. You can just like go peruse and bounce around and see like, oh, you can window shop. You can window shop. And I do. I still like window shopping at the holidays. I like going out to malls. I like looking at stuff. I don't want to do everything online. I'm an old man. I like the Christmas spirit out in the mall with crowds even if I'm just looking. You like the Christmas spirit in the malls or you just want to order stuff online?

[Bill Landis]

I used to love it when I was a kid because my birthday is the 19th so like I would get all my money on my birthday and then I would go Christmas shopping with it. It was like the best time I had was going Christmas shopping with my birthday money. But I have not gone to the mall for Christmas shop in quite some time. I do.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Wow. Wait, are you just painting a picture of little Philly Billy getting his birthday money and then using it to buy presents for his family for Christmas?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that's what I used to do.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Are you a character?

[Doug Les Maurice]

What is going on? Maybe Mama and papa can me have my birthday. That's not how they talk back there.

[Bill Landis]

I have a very, I have a very vivid memory of. I don't.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I'm.

[Bill Landis]

I don't know. I must have been like 11. And there's a Disney store in the Cherry Hill Mall, which is in New Jersey across the river from Philly. And I went to the Disney store and I got my brother a Tigger mug. Like Tigger for Winnie the Pooh or like a, like a cup, like a ceramic was blue that had Tigger all over it and I bought it for him and I walked out of the store and I dropped it and it shattered all over the place.

[Doug Les Maurice]

No, but because I was a child.

[Bill Landis]

And I was like visibly upset about it, the very nice people at Disney store just let me grab another one, pay for a second one.

[Doug Les Maurice]

My God, this is a Dickens. This is a Christmas carol for the modern day Philly. Billy and the Tigger mug. What a little vignette that is. Is this the greatest that Ohio State receiver room will ever be? This is the peak. And Brian Hartline is leaving and Jeremiah Smith is one of one. And it'll never be better than this. Merry Christmas.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, maybe it could still be very good. But if we think. Because we. We throw the word generational around far too often for it to mean anything anymore. But, but Jeremiah truly is that.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I think.

[Bill Landis]

Think so. Like yeah. Yeah. Will anybody ever quite hold a candle to that? Possibly not. So it could be the peak, but it doesn't mean the other side of it is just a straight, straight downslope to mediocrity. It just means like you're good but not quite as good.

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[Bill Landis]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Be physical.

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Tayne takes on Ole Miss followed by James Madison in Oregon.

[Doug Les Maurice]

It's time to bring it first round.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented by all state Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Max, are you ready?

[College Football Playoff Announcer]

Let's go.

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[Doug Les Maurice]

I think the comparison, Jeremiah Smith is Chase Young and where you were, like, with the Boses and Taekwond Lewis and Nick and Sam Hubbard and sort of like, guys like, okay, and then Chase Young, and then Chase Young in 2019 as a Heisman finalist, and he's setting sack records. And then after that, there was like a period of like, they're, they're. They're good at edge, but they don't have game wreckers. And then there was a period of like, man, they actually kind of need to get some more sacks. And then you got to JT to Molo and Jack Sawyer and the scoop and score and Kaden Curry, and it's very good. Go listen to our defensive line show. It's very good. But nobody's Chase Young. And I don't think we. We. For a while, you could feel, I think, the. The Chase Young hole in that room and at the position, and I think people were longing for it. And I don't know that we're longing for it anymore. But we also can acknowledge that Kaden Curry is having an All American year. Jack Sawyer made arguably the most impactful play in Ohio State history last year with a great play as an edge rusher. These things are happening, but they're not as good as Chase Young. But that's okay. Yeah, I think that's what we might be headed towards. And you know that there was a lot of things like building up that. That room in 2021, and then Ameka Buka and then Marvin Harrison Jr. And then it's building up to Jeremiah Smith, who was first paired with a Mecca Buka. Then he's paired with Carnell Tate. Holy moly. And you're gonna get one more year, Jeremiah. Next year, you're not sure who he's going to be paired with. And then there's plenty of, like, Chris Henry Jr. Might be great. I don't think he's gonna be better than Jeremiah. But we were having conversations, like, in Jeremiah's fourth game, it's like we thought, is Marvin Harrison Jr. The greatest receiver in Ohio State history? And simultaneously not as good as this true freshman who's played his third game. Those are the conversations we were having last year. And I think they were the correct conversations. I don't think we'll ever have that conversation again. And that's okay. But I also think, right, it's the Ed Helms in the office saying, I wish people would tell you it was the good old days. While they were happening, they're happening right now. If you love receiver play at Ohio State, you're in the good old days and that's not a bad thing because there's lots of times in life where you never get to the good old days. But also the good old days don't go on for 30 years. You have to have an understanding of when something special is happening and it has a shelf life. And I, I think I would feel this way even if Brian Hartline wasn't leaving because Jeremiah Smith is the zenith. How do you get better than Jeremiah Smith? But added in with Brian Hartline leaving and it's not falling off a cliff, it's not turning bad, but I don't think it will be better. Maybe you can find a way for it to be close to as good if you really can have like three very good receivers on the field together. Right. But I don't think there's going to be another Jeremiah Smith coming because I think he's is that special. And then also the heartline component. So just like, like, as we talk about the future, that's my view of the future for the receiver room, which shouldn't scare anybody, which should make you appreciate it in the moment. But also I just think it's real talk.

[Bill Landis]

I don't disagree with any of it, but I guess I, I would say that Ohio State will remain a destination for receivers.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I agree.

[Bill Landis]

And because of that, there, there will be ample opportunity for Ohio State to still in a given season have the best receiver core in the country. It just may never quite be this good.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Right. So Orlando Pace, Chase Young, Jeremiah Smith, the zenith of certain position groups doesn't mean you can't be great there, but it just. You'll never be better than what you put on the field there. What? Yeah, I'll put it in the. When we do the sub sack thing, I'm going to put like we did. I said this on the Big Ten network about Jeremiah. Like I said, like this is it, you know, like this is. They did like a little mini journey thing on him and I was like, like it's all been building up to something because when you're building up to something, there has to be the something you can't just have building.

[Bill Landis]

Always a final boss. Yeah, there's always a final boss. Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Yeah. So. So that's where we are. What do you think realistically, are the actual chances they bring in a veteran receiver in the portal that, that next year? Actually, Ohio State's two receivers are Jeremiah Smith and a guy added in the Portal, who's already been good somewhere else.

[Bill Landis]

Like non zero. But I wouldn't say they're particularly high.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

You know, if I'm trying to think, like, Cam Coleman at Auburn, I think is a guy that everyone's like. Like, has on their mind. If Cam Coleman were to enter the portal and just like, I think, like, express a ton of interest in coming to play for Ohio State, I could see them taking a swing like that because that. That's more in the category of elite. Guy wants to come here, what are you supposed to do kind of thing. Right.

[Doug Les Maurice]

That's like a Quinn, Sean Judkins move, right?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Where it's like, I don't. I don't know that. Then I think people might disagree that the. Whether. Whether or not the need is there. I don't know that Ohio State views it as a glaring need with. With Jeremiah coming back. Brandon Ennis is coming back. I don't think Ohio State is like, writing off the Myelin Grahams or Quincy Porters of the world. And then you have Chris Henry Jr. Coming in, who Ohio State has made a pretty hefty financial investment into to. To get. To come to play for them. And the expectation is that he's going to play early. So I don't know that they'd want to necessarily bring in somebody to, like, kind of disrupt all of that unless it's just a truly excellent player. And right now, I would not. I would say that, like, that player is not in the portal. Like, I know Nick Marsh from Michigan State, isn't there. Nice player. I don't think he's the guy that you kind of drop in here because you think he's like another worldly kind of talent. So they've never done it. I could see them doing it, but if I had to guess one way or the other right now, I'd probably say no.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I would. I would also would wonder if they wind up making an outside hire at receivers coach, specifically if that receivers coach has an existing relationship that he says.

[Bill Landis]

I got a guy as a guy. Yeah.

[Doug Les Maurice]

I'm either bringing him from my school or this. There's this guy that I recruited, but the school I was at wasn't quite good enough for him to go to, but he's somewhere else, and now he's in the portal. And now the combination of me being at Ohio State, he wants to come play for me. Like, I think that could. That could make it a little bit of a different conversation also. What do you think about the idea of, like, big brother, little brother, Jeremiah Smith, Chris Henry Jr. Doing something next year that could be, that could be a fun dynamic. Yes.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think that could be really good for Chris. Jeremiah didn't get that with Marvin. They just missed each other by a year. But I think, you know, it's, it's hard. I, I hesitate to talk about them in the same breath, only because it just puts a ton of expectation on Chris Henry. But let me also be realistic about it. Like, he's going to have a ton of expectations, so, like, might as well, like, you know, take it head on. I think it'd be really good for him. I think Jeremiah, like, would embrace that role, too, as a third guy, understanding, like, the legacy of the position and wanting to hand it down to kind of like the next one, too. So I think that'll be a pretty powerful dynamic for Ohio State next year. Okay.

[Doug Les Maurice]

All right, that's it for our receiver breakdown. We're doing all 10 position groups. Make sure you're subscribed here on YouTube or in your podcast feed so you get all of them one a day. We're going to have just a bunch of other stuff leading up to Ohio State's first game in the College Football Playoff. A bunch of stuff over on Substack. Go visit our [e-mail] R, H O B A C K.com use the code BAD20B A D20 to get 20% off your first order. We'll talk to you soon. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Les Maurice. And that was the Bill and Doug Show.

[College Football Playoff Announcer]

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[Bill Landis]

The attention to detail is like none other.

[College Football Playoff Announcer]

Be physical, be flat. We are the winner.

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Tulane takes on Ole Miss, followed by James Madison in Oregon.

[Doug Les Maurice]

It's time to bring it first round.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Coverage of the college football playoffs presented by allstate Saturday at 3:30 Eastern on TNT and HBO.

[Doug Les Maurice]

Max, are you ready?

[College Football Playoff Announcer]

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