← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Ohio State spring football practice No. 10: Will the secondary be the strength of the Buckeyes?
01:03:07
Ohio State football held its 10th practice of spring football on Wednesday and coaches and players from the Buckeyes' secondary spoke afterwards.
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Douglas and Bill Landis talking after Ohio State spring practice. I always want to make sure I have the numbers right. 10.
- [00:14]
B
Right. 10. Yeah.
- [00:16]
A
11 is on Friday, 12 is next Monday. 13 is next Wednesday, 14 is next Friday and 15 is the spring game on April 18th.
- [00:25]
B
Got it.
- [00:26]
A
Go to the spring game. It'll be exciting because it's a great way to be in Ohio Stadium and watch Ohio.
- [00:31]
B
What? Oh, what? No, looking like, looking like rain. I hope it changes. I hope it changes. We're, it's Ohio. We're, we're too many days out to worry about it.
- [00:39]
A
That's why you got a dome Ohio stadium. Plant that flag. Secondary discussion. We talked with cornerbacks coach Tim Walton. We talked with safety's coach Matt Guerreri. We talked with safety's Earl Little, leroy Roker, Jalen McLean and cornerback Devin Sanchez. We spoke with Jermaine Matthews earlier this spring, but we haven't talked to Terry Moore, Right?
- [01:04]
B
No, I thought we would because we've, we've been getting a lot of the transfers, right. We got our little, we got James Smith. Smith. Christian Allegra, Christian Allegro. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why we didn't get Terry Moore. Yeah.
- [01:19]
A
So interesting conversations. It's again where there was three, three tables going at Ohio State. They just, you know, do a nice job getting people out there. But we didn't get personally to everybody. We wanted to get to God. I would have had, we would have 14 questions for Leroy Roker, but we didn't get to him because you were Earl Little and I was a Jalen McLean. And we had a pretty long discussion outside the Woody Hayes Athletic center. And then we had another discussion right here before we started recording. And often I am, we are like, hey, let's like not do the whole show before the show. But I felt like we needed to do the show before the show twice today because I was trying to figure out how mad you might get at me for trying to, for my attempts to be confused by what is going on in the secondary. And I'm trying to figure out who is what, who is what? Who is what. And you said maybe there aren't answers to that question yet. And we're just trying to decide, are you going to get mad at me? Am I going to get mad at the world? What's going to happen here?
- [02:26]
B
I, I do, I do think there are not definitive answers. And a couple, even Macareri in his, whatever, eight minutes that he spoke, I think multiple Times said, like, sorry I don't have more specifics, but we're still trying to figure this out, too, which is not, like, unheard of, especially when you have as many new players as Ohio State has. I do think. You tell me, though, if. If all of these things can be true at the same time. I really like what's going on on the secondary. I think right now I would say the secondary is going to be the best part of this team. And also, I have no idea what it's going to look like.
- [03:04]
A
There are a lot of options at both spots, safety and corner, which we talked about on the depth show we did for our Substack subscribers last week. But it was confirmation here, because, for instance, I asked Jaylen McLean, like, what do you think of the safety room? And he said, deep right. I asked Tim Walton, the cornerbacks coach, like, who's your number three corner? And he's like, what do you. I don't know, dude, basically, to paraphrase. But I said, do you feel like you're searching? So we know Jermaine Matthews and Devin Sanchez are locked in the quarterback room. I said, do you feel like you're searching for that next guy or you have a lot of good options? And he was like, a lot of good options, like, in instantaneous. And again, because I think he could be honest about that if they're trying to, like, light a fire. If, like, no, we gotta find it. Whereas it's like, well, it could be Dominic Kelly, it could be Cam Calhoun, it could be Jay Timmons somehow in it, like. Like there's multiple names that are legitimate guys, and then clearly it's safety. There's a lot of that. So, again, there's the difference of the conversations that we have when we don't know the answers to things. But is it. Should you be worried that we don't know the answers or should just be intrigued and curious? And I don't think there's much worry on this show today.
- [04:24]
B
I'm not worried at all, really. Famous last words, I guess. But I'm very intrigued. Like, I. And I think there's just an opportunity here for. Not for the defense to look, like, drastically different on the back end, but I think the way that they deploy people to be a little more, like, specific and situational than maybe it was last year when kind of didn't have to sub all that much unless you were going to dime. And now I think depending on who you're playing and how those teams try to attack you offensively and what particular skill set you might be looking for in a given game or a given situation. You. You might see some different configurations here beyond just the normal. We're putting a six defensive back on the field because this is a passing down.
- [05:13]
A
Right. So why don't we start with. With your safety conversation, which was very important with Matt Guerreri. Just for some basics, can we lay down some basics for the good folks out there? And again, thanks to Everybody watching on YouTube. Thanks to everybody listening on the podcast feed. We're just like, there's a lot of energy around Ohio State football right now. It's exciting. We're excited that you guys are here. You also can check out our substack Bill and Doug osu.substack.com you're gathering info, Bill. You're foraging, right? You're out there. You're a gatherer. You're scooping up stuff. And we sometimes forget to get the baseline on things because we're going to the fifth step and it's like, hold on a second. And you did that?
- [05:57]
B
I did do that. I. After mcrerray was done, I chatted with him for an extra two and a half minutes because I don't believe we've ever asked him or Matt Patricia or Tim Walton how they identify their safeties. And I didn't know because Jim Knowles had. Whatever had. Bandit adjuster.
- [06:16]
A
Adjudicator.
- [06:17]
B
Adjudicator.
- [06:18]
A
The litigator.
- [06:19]
B
Master of ceremonies. Yeah, like, I don't know. Like, it was. There was. There was a lot. A lot going on there. So I didn't know if, you know what. What this staff chooses to call them. So it's free safety and strong safety. Not rewriting the book there. And the. The nickel position they call the star, and I think they call it the star because the star is. Or maybe why they don't just call it the nickel? Because I do think, as we discussed before, like, nickel sort of conjures a very specific type of player and. And job description, which is like a kind of a third corner that's out there to cover a speedy slot guy. But that's clearly not how Ohio State is. Has utilized that role that Lorenzo Style played last year and that Jordan Hancock played before him. So those are the three spots. Free, strong star. And then I followed up with, like, the four main guys. I think the four. Everyone would consider the four main guys in the room. Jayla McLean back as a starter from last year, Earlittle Jr. In as a transfer, Terry Moore in as a transfer. And Leroy roker is a 30 year guy stepping up top four guys in the position. Can all four of those guys play any three of those positions? And the answer was yes.
- [07:30]
A
That's great information. Is. Is the reason that they call it the star because it's the fifth DB and a star has five points?
- [07:40]
B
I would assume so, yeah.
- [07:41]
A
Oh, that wasn't some revelation by me. You're like, yeah, Doug, five points on the star. Great job. But this goes back my first year covering Ohio State football. I don't know if they had used the. The phrase before, but in 2005, Dante Whitner was the star. And I had really not. I had not covered college football before. And I was like, I love college football. The star. Like, it was like, you may as well call that position jazz hands. I was like, let's go, Dante Whitner's the star. And then Dante Whitner was a star, but there. And then there was like this. This thing that kind of had like this run of. Well, maybe not a run like of Glenville guys playing that spot. Like, Jermaine Hines was kind of that spot. And it's interesting because back then that conjured to me, that was a little more of a thumper. That's like. It was more of a safety, linebacker hybrid. Who's a safety, who's going to come down, have coverage responsibilities, blow you up. And that's what Dante Whitner. Take your head off, man. My God, Dante Witter was a great player. And now, you know, it can be that. It can be more coverage responsibility, that guy. And this is where the. My primary confusion, not confusion, maybe curiosity comes from, because that star position, that fifth db, that guy who often, but not always winds up lined up in the slot, can come out of the safety's room, or it can come out of the corners room, right, his baseline, like. And it's just one of those things. If you. If you're in the corner room, it's like, okay, you have to be able to cover. And if you're in the safety room, you're probably. Maybe you've got to be able to cover, but maybe you're a little more rangy. Maybe you're a little bit more of a hitter if you're strong safety. Like, it's not the exact same skill set. And so the skill set that applies to that fifth db, that star position can come from either place, but then your responsibilities can change in that position, right? Like, you really have to be kind of a special player to be able to do that. But it's like, which way do you lean and sometimes like, okay, we're going to call it the star now. Is that official? Like when we discuss this from now on we can just say free safety, strong safety and star. That start right now.
- [09:52]
B
That's what the safeties coach said. So. So yeah, I think so. There's also been an evolution with this, I think and I actually like, we've already spoken with Matt Patricia. I feel like if you asked Matt Patricia this question, you'd get a six minute answer on the evolution of the star position. Because the star was like Saban's like fifth back end defender when he and Belichick were together in Cleveland. And I think at that time it was more of like it's a Sam linebacker. And then over time that kind of evolved more into instead of a safety linebacker hybrid, more of what you're saying, like a corner safety hybrid. So because I, I had like, definitely I've heard like the star referred to more as, as like a, a linebacker type in the past than I have a safety or a corner type.
- [10:41]
A
And we're having this conversation right, 2014. What's Darren Lee? Well, Darren Lee's like a Sam linebacker, a strong side linebacker. But they also called him like the walkout backer that year with Chris Ash, which is like a backer who has to be able. So like, and then what's the difference between Dante Whitner and Darren Lee and Pete Werner and Caleb Downs? It's like, but you like, not like, not that much because what can they all do? They all take your head off and they all also have the speed and agility to cover you. So like I don't, I don't know. And then like even Jordan Hancock grew into that. Like, like Jordan Hancock in 2024. He still might be the ideal guy that I think of that, that he was stout enough that you, he absolutely, he came from the corner room. He can cover, no doubt about it. But you don't have to take him off the field because you know that he's physical enough to help against the run and do that. But then also if you go to a dime, look, you keep him on the field and drop him back as a, as a deep safety too. Or even if you're not in D. Like he can do all three of those. Stop the run, you cover in the slot, play deep safety. Like, I like if, like I can't, I can't get away from that. Maybe I don't want to get away from that. I think Jordan Hancock was a great player and then it's like, what ends up happening with me a lot is, are we sure the guy now in that spot can cover well enough? And that's where part of my curiosity comes from. If we're thinking about these four safeties who can play any of the three looks, do any of those four safeties really have that part of the coverage skill set that you're looking for that you automatically get if that star guy comes out of the corner room? And that's. Yeah, I have screenshots. You're gonna kill me. Don't kill me. So that's. I'm sorry. I apologize in advance, but I do.
- [12:39]
B
I. I do think that's sort of like, the lingering question. At least it is for me. And. Because, like, Earl Little Jr. Came out of high school as a corner, but, like, hasn't really played corner in college, so.
- [12:52]
A
No.
- [12:53]
B
And it doesn't mean he can't cover. And the other part of it, too, is, like, Ohio doesn't play a lot of man. They play a ton of zone. So maybe that's like a less of an urgent need. But also, like, even if you're in zone, you got to carry routes vertically and stuff like that, so it's not like you can mask it entirely. So. But that. That is like. And that's why I. I asked Macareri, like, you know, would you prefer to have a guy like a Hancock or a Styles who can kind of do both, and you don't have to sub them out, depending on what you're looking for, or is it okay to package? And he said, like, we'll do both. And I think the reason maybe they're a little more gung ho about doing both this year is because they don't have, like, that specific skill set to do both within one person, maybe. Unless that person is, like, Jay Timmons is a true freshman.
- [13:47]
A
All right, can we get to some screenshots? And so if you are listening on a podcast, we'll explain them.
- [13:52]
B
Okay.
- [13:53]
A
So you're not.
- [13:53]
B
It's okay.
- [13:54]
A
You didn't say yes. You're okay with screenshots? Sure.
- [13:57]
B
No, let's do it.
- [13:57]
A
You're reluctant. All right. It says, Doug put names in all capital letters. I mean, you should have seen I was Googling. How do you put names on a screenshot? It's okay. So we have. Oh, we both took it off at this. We got a producer in here. We just both went back and forth taking the.
- [14:18]
B
The.
- [14:19]
A
The frame off. Okay. This is a three play sequence from the end of Indiana's first drive in the Big Ten championship game last year. It was an eight play drive. So this, they got like a first down or two. This was the last first, second and third down of this drive. So Ohio State winds up getting a stop here. This first play. They have four guys on the line of scrimmage. Can you see my. My pointer? No, you can't, can you? That's just on my screen. Oh, man, I'm really doing a good job pointing to myself here. Four defensive linemen up on the line of scrimmage, two linebackers, and then they have the five DBs behind that. They're the two outside corners. They have Jalen McLean, who is labeled as the deep safety between the hashes. Caleb downs is about seven yards closer to the line of scrimmage than Jaylen McLean, but he's the second deepest guy. And then Lorenzo Styles is lined up kind of in line with the linebackers, but he is over top. Omar Cooper Jr. Who's going to be a first round receiver in this NFL draft, he's lined up over top of him in coverage on this. So these are the three safety spots. So McClain right here would be the free safety, Downs would be the strong safety, and Lorenzo Styles would be the star. Do you agree with that?
- [15:36]
B
Yes.
- [15:37]
A
This is a deep shot that they go to. Omar Cooper Jr. Again, first round receiver Lorenzo Styles runs with him. So they wind up, I guess this is. Man, on this play, even though you said, like, they don't do this a ton, he runs with him all the way down the field and breaks up the pass. Does. It's a pretty darn good play by Lorenzo Stiles. And actually Omar Cooper Jr got hurt on this play then. But Caleb downs and Jaylen McClain kind of are both trailing the play, but they're. They're kind of around like if it had been completed, they might have made the tackle, but those were the responsibilities on this play. This is, is this. This is fairly straightforward. Free safety, strong safety, star position stuff. Yes, seems to be.
- [16:17]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:18]
A
Okay. All right.
- [16:19]
B
So then they feel like I'm on the witness stand.
- [16:21]
A
Yeah. Is that not correct, Mr. Landis? Which is it not true that you would call Lorenzo Styles the star in this situation? So this is second down. Second down. I waited until after the snap because there's a little rotation here. Jalen McLean started deeper in the same spot between the hashes, but on the snap, Caleb Downs is dropping more and Jalen McClain comes up a little bit. But Lorenzo Styles is in the slot over a receiver just like before this winds up being a run, none of the safeties wind up involved in the play, but it's like, again, a little bit of a disguise that McClain starts deeper in the free safety spot. You would probably call Downs the strong safety here, but then at the snap, they kind of switch, and the guy who's closer to the line of scrimmage and Downs goes back, and the guy who's farther away and McClain comes up. But it's pretty standard safety play and alignment here. Do you agree?
- [17:15]
B
Mm.
- [17:18]
A
Third down, they go to 60 Bs. This is their dime. Look, there are two deep safeties, split safeties deep. It's Lorenzo styles and Jalen McLean. So this is Lorenzo Styles playing a very different position here, right? He's coming out of slot coverage to deep safety coverage. They have three corners in the game. Jermaine Matthews is inside as the slot corner. Devin Sanchez comes in the game. He's at the bottom of the screen. Top of the screen is Davis and Igbos. Those are their three corners. And Caleb Downs is. Is looks. It's like a linebacker here. And even like right at this is before the snap, Right at the snap, he comes up on the line of scrimmage, and on this play, they wind up. They have six DBs. They have three corners. They have three safeties. They have two linebackers in the game in Sunny Styles, Norvell Reese. They only have three defensive linemen in the game. On the snap, Orville Reese spies. Sonny Styles floats in the middle of the field and then goes with the linebacker in coverage. Caleb Downs takes the offset tight end in coverage. And then they play split safeties, kind of zone play behind the corners playing man. Right. I mean, I went. Looked at it again, and then Kaden Curry gets a sack. Kaden Curry rips Zen Mahalski's arms off and gets a set. So that's my point of all of this, is to say to see what Jalen McLean, Lorenzo Styles, and Caleb Downs were doing in this set of three plays. Jalen McClain's deep the whole time. Lorenzo Styles, two out of the three plays is over the slot receiver. And Caleb Downs is up. He's just more up more of the time in a strong safety. Look, just to define how they worked more often than not last year, not every single snap. But is this an encapsulation of the primary alignments and duties of the safeties a year ago?
- [19:11]
B
Yeah, I think so. So I'm. I was watching the plays as you were going through them. So the fir. The first One is not man. Okay.
- [19:23]
A
Lorenzo winds up running with him, but.
- [19:25]
B
Yeah, but it looks like it's cover six.
- [19:29]
A
And what's that?
- [19:30]
B
So Lorenzo's. Lorenzo is over the slot, but he opens up his hips. He's playing zone. There's two vertical routes, and Jaylen McClain picks one. So that leaves the seam open because if you watch the player run, Lorenzo, like, kind of stops and looks behind him and says, like, oh, crap, there's nobody there because Jalen McLean has to get really wide because the number one receiver to that side went completely vertical. So it's actually really good. It's actually a really good play by Indiana and actually pretty good coverage by Lorenzo Styles. So that's not man. And the reason I point that out is because the third down is man. The third down is two man cover two men. And that's when they put Caleb Downs up to play man coverage. And they're not. Yes. And they're not asking Lorenzo Styles to play, man, because they think that.
- [20:19]
A
And they have three corners in the game. They have. Well, because Caleb's on the tight end and there's three receivers in the game. They have three corners in that dime look. So the three corners, Jermaine, Devin and Igb Are all playing man, right?
- [20:31]
B
Yeah. They're covering the receivers, and Caleb is. Okay, I'm assuming Caleb's got a check there or whatever. Like, if the tight end releases, then that's his man. If the tight end stays, Caleb can probably blitz or do whatever he wants to do. But that's. But then you have. Yeah, three receivers or three corners in man coverage on receivers, two deep safeties, one of which is Lorenzo Styles. But that's like. That sort of speaks to the complexity and the disguise and the. I don't know what everyone's going to do of this, because all on three consecutive plays, you have Lorenzo Styles playing as a hook defender that's got a carrier out vertically. Then you have him playing as a hook defender who just sits down in the shallow zone, and then you have him as a deep half player and on third down. And it's like I. Any one of their three safeties, I think, could have done that. But then when they had to have a safety cover man to man, it was Caleb Downs.
- [21:30]
A
But not on a receiver.
- [21:32]
B
Not on the receiver.
- [21:33]
A
Right. On a good tight end. But. But not.
- [21:38]
B
Yeah, but.
- [21:38]
A
But in that look, on third down, when it was third and long, they went to the three DBs to say, okay, but Omar Cooper Jr. And Charlie Becker and Elijah Surratt we're not going to ask any of our three safeties to play man on those guys. And that's one of those.
- [21:50]
B
I don't think. Yeah, I, it happens. It happened. I wanna. I think might have happened against Ohio when that really good slot receiver from Ohio got matched up with Lorenzo Styles and scored a touchdown. Like, it's not to say that they could never end up in a situation where that star has to play man coverage on a receiver, but I think they try to avoid that as much as possible, or at least they did last year, because that's not. I don't think anybody would say that was Lorenzo's strongest area of his game. Maybe they were a little more comfortable doing it with Jordan Hancock the year prior before Matt Patricia got here. But I, So. But that's still like to say, like, I don't know which of those main four safeties that we're talking about for this year, which of those four they'd be most comfortable putting in that position if they had to. Because, like, I don't. I don't think the answer is Jalen McLean. I don't think the answer is Terry Moore, and I don't think the answer is Leroy Roker. I think the only possible answer is Earl Little. But even that I'm. I'm not truly certain of. So then you get into, like, okay, now are you creating a package for Jay Timmons? Are you?
- [22:48]
A
Right.
- [22:49]
B
Bumping Jerry Matthews inside and doing something else on the outside, a corner. And that's where some of this, like, confusion and interchangeability comes in. And it's, like, confusing for us. It's not confusing for Ohio State.
- [23:03]
A
No, no, no. We're just trying to figure out, like, they don't want to tell us because they might not know the answer because they're still evaluating skill sets. But. But they're. They don't know the answer because they're saying, I don't know what we're gonna do. They're just like, so. But they're not walking us through the steps of it right now. But the point of all of this is not to just show my lack of ball knowledge. It's. I'm trying to figure out in 2026 who's going to be the equivalent of those situations. And so one last set of numbers to talk about this deep safety in the box right up, like with the linebackers or in the slot, sort of like over that slot receiver. That's how PFF designates responsibilities, alignments. When they break down, what guys did it, is they all do everything. But last year, Lorenzo Styles, the majority. The thing he did most was be in the slot. The thing that Caleb Downs did most was be in the box. The thing that Jaylen McLean did most was be deep. And so, yes, they're interchangeable, but they also all clearly have sort of primary responsibilities. In 2024, the thing that Jordan Hancock did most was be in the slot way more than anybody else. Jordan Hancock was 419snaps in the slot. Caleb Downs was 160. Latham Ransom was 82 in the box. It's what Caleb Downs did the most. And then deep safety Ransom did it more than Downs. It's a little closer. Hancock did it sometimes. Ransom and Downs in 2024 were more interchangeable than Downs and McLean were last year. Yes, but even within that, even within that interchangeability there is sort of like the primary responsibility. So what? Again, this is a 20 minute preamble to the question of what you have outlined. Seems very helpful, which is they have four guys they believe in to play these three roles. Terry Moore, Leroy Rooker, Earl Little, Jalen McLean, as you said. And do you think in the end there, there will be some sort of rotation where those four guys maybe kind of play those three spots in a way that of course, some, three of them have to be the starters. But the fourth guy is more than a backup.
- [25:28]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [25:29]
A
Okay, so then who's what? The headline of this show is who is what? But if we're trying to say that more often than not, free safety, 2024, lace and Lathan Ransom, 2025, Jayla McLean, strong safety both years. Caleb Downs, star, 2024. Jordan Hancock, 2025, Lorenzo Downs. Who do you think will be the three. What did I say?
- [25:54]
B
Lorenzo Downs be a hell of a player.
- [25:56]
A
Oh, that would be
- [25:59]
B
really fast. Caleb Downs.
- [26:00]
A
Yeah. Heck of a podcaster too. Lorenzo Styles. Who do you think? And. And you're. I'm making you make your guess. I'm not taking. I'm not taking. I don't know. I know. Macarere is saying I don't know. You're my safety's coach, Bill Landis. I'm demanding an answer. Remember, you're on the stand because shouldn't, shouldn't a podcast feel like a trial? Isn't that fun for everybody? Who do you think will be the primary? Deep safety, free safety, as Jayla McLean was in 2025, as Lathan Ransom was in 2024?
- [26:38]
B
I can't say. I don't know. My guess would be a combination of Terry Moore and Leroy Roker.
- [26:48]
A
Okay. Leroy Roker, during his short interview that you, neither you and I nor I got to and were very frustrated by that, was asked, like, what do you think you do well? And he described himself as rangy.
- [27:02]
B
Yeah.
- [27:03]
A
And Dan Hope offered the reminder that Mark Pantoni, Ohio State's roster guru once upon a time made a comparison between Malik Hooker and Leroy Roker. And when we think about a free safety who can be deep and cover sideline to sideline, you can't think of somebody better than Malik Hooker. So it feels like. And, and you said Terry Moore did that pretty darn well at Duke in the past. So do those feel like two good options to be that free safety for Ohio State?
- [27:38]
B
I do think so. I think, I think Terry Moore, without a doubt is a free safety just like, based off of what he did the last time he was on the field in 2024, the strengths and weaknesses of that. And there were a lot of good. There was a lot of good. I just, I think he's more of a roam in the middle of the field deep kind of guy. Leroy Roker might have a little more, like, versatility in him. So, like, I, I'm, I'm slightly hesitant to like, like, pigeonhole him as a guy who can only play the deep middle, but I, I would think that's probably what he does best. And actually it's like, funny if you think about it. Leroy Roker is a under the radar, three star safety who was also a basketball player who, who's now just starting to break out as he goes into year three.
- [28:26]
A
You plant your flag now on Leroy Roker. One year starter, first round draft pick,
- [28:31]
B
seven interceptions this year, All American first round draft pick.
- [28:38]
A
Do you feel good about Ohio State having good free safety play this season?
- [28:46]
B
Yes.
- [28:47]
A
Okay.
- [28:48]
B
Because I also think that if, whatever reason if, like, if you, if like Terry Moore hasn't played a while and he's rusty and it's taken a long time to knock, knock that rust off. And everyone's excited about Leroy Roker, but it turns out, you know what? He's not that ready. Jalen McLean was an awesome free safety last year. So you can, you can just bump him back.
- [29:05]
A
And, and that's the thing. You know, I spent 12 minutes with Jalen McLean and mentioned to him the idea that Caleb Downs said that, you know, Jalen McLean kind of sacrificed last year to allow Caleb Downs to roam. And, and, and I would talk about Jalen McLean. Jalen's just like, what? Like, I don't. He, he Smiled a kind, tiny little bit when I mentioned that to him. But he's just like, we're, we were a tandem. I'm doing my job and if part of my job is to, like, let Caleb do what he's got to do, great. I'm gonna hold a Jalen McLean thought for a second until we actually get to Dylan McLean. Okay. I think that's the easy part of the answer. They have a deep safety. And, and the thing that you brought up as we were looking up all this stuff, Malik Hooker's a great example. But actually Malik Hooker, when you looked at pff, did not play every single snap at free safety, at deep safety. But a guy who did, who might be a decent comparison here is Jordan Fuller, Right.
- [29:59]
B
Jordan Fuller was like exclusively a deep safety. And that was when Ohio State was in the Jeff athletes, the defensive coordinator, they're basically copying and pasting the Seattle Seahawks. Cover three, cover one kind of single high stuff. No, like, not even pretending to start in split safety. They're just, we're just gonna park Jordan Fuller in the middle of the field pre snap because we have Chase Young and you don't. And I think. And back in 2016, there's a little more of some split safety stuff going on when Willie Cooker was playing. And obviously now there's more split safety stuff, so it's not, not quite as stark. Yeah.
- [30:39]
A
Foreign. Who's the strong safety, who's the in the box safety that Caleb Downs has been the last two years?
- [30:49]
B
If you have to slot guys specifically into these three roles, I would say Jaylen McLean. But I, I also think that maybe there's a little more interchangeability between strong safety and star with McLean and little than probably there would have been with downs and styles last year. Okay.
- [31:04]
A
But part of this is getting Jalen McLean closer to the line of scrimmage more frequently to allow him to be a playmaker.
- [31:12]
B
Yes, I think so. Yeah. And I think he's, he was a good safety blanket, I think, on the back end last year. But I, I, at least I wonder anyway if the, if the best version of him is not get the play a little more downhill.
- [31:30]
A
And I do think to have Malik Hooker and Jordan Fuller's two examples of what that deep safety, that free safety can do. Malik Hooker is sideline to sideline. You can't throw a ball on me that I can't get to. And Jordan Fuller, as Jeff Halfley called him, was the eraser. It's like you're not getting, you're not running 70 yards for a touchdown. And that's. You brought that up with Jill McLean. Jalen McLean, like the start of the Michigan game, made a couple tackles to make sure those 20 yard runs didn't turn into 60 yard runs.
- [31:57]
B
Yeah, I think whatever it was there was like early those. I think it was three runs that popped for Michigan that got out. And Jalen McLean just like kind of ran all three to the sideline and they were long runs, but they weren't, they weren't scores.
- [32:07]
A
Yeah. So like Jalen, I think like Jalen McLean probably was closer to Jordan Fuller, like real, I think, incredibly trustworthy. The main thing you've got to be, if you're going to be that deep safety guy is trustworthy and then up, you get to be a playmaker and you have a chance to maybe have some tackles for loss. You get to have a chance to maybe blitz every now and then. And I do think if that's part of the design, I think we believe that before the portal started, hey, one of the things we kind of expect is creating a situation so that Jalen McLean is not just standing back. 442 snaps last year at deep safety for Jaylen McLean, 186 in the box, 70 in the slot. Right. So like two thirds of the time he's deep safety. They want to let him be a playmaker. So that makes sense to me. And then when we talk about like that's the Caleb down spot, right. That is the epitome of I'm up, I'm doing stuff. But the other thing that you, that you. Right. This is what Greer was talking about and even Jalen was talking about the goal last year was to create safety roles that allowed Caleb Downs to move to maybe freelance, to not know where people are, where the offense is not going to know where he's going to be. Because you had to maximize Caleb Downs. And maybe it is not the maximization of a single safety this year that is the goal, but maybe what you think, maybe they could play to play, move guys around to maximize. This is the. We're going to get, try to get Jalen McLean free on this play. But then this play we're going to try to do with Earl Little, right. It's not going to be downs all the time.
- [33:42]
B
Right. Like the, the chief sort of like motivating factor, I think for the defense as it pertains like the, the back end last year was to make sure the teams weren't able to like isolate Caleb Downs and figure out what he was doing. And Ohio State was really good with all the disguises and movement they did to make sure that that didn't happen. And now I just, and, and that's like a core tenant of their safety play. Like they want that disguise. That's not changing. But now I think like the benefactor of that player wise could be anybody rather than just sort of more often than not probably being Caleb Downs. Right.
- [34:20]
A
Okay. I think that seems good. I think that seems right. I have been working on I'm finally going to write it for Thursday on the sub stack. Bill and Doug osu.substack.com A story about the Iron Buckeyes and the four Iron Buckeyes from the winter off season workouts were Jeremiah Smith, Garrett Stover, Brandon ennis and Jalen McLean. So we've talked to all four of those guys. Now I asked Jalen McClain a couple questions about it and I would like, I think I will write this in the story. I would like to suggest that they change the name of the Iron Buckeye and I think they now should call it the Not Effing Around Crew and that you have been inducted, you are now a member and they can get them satin jackets. The Not Effing around crew because Jalen McLean is the captain of the Not Effing Around Crew and Jalen like Jalen McLean there. And and in reporting this story a little bit, it helped clarify for me. I think I associated Iron Buckeye with like weight room excellence in the past because it is a an award that comes out of off season workouts. It comes out of the weight room, but it's not about weightlifting. It is a seriousness of purpose award and it is there's no football game to get ready for. Stuff is way off in the distance. And in talking to Mickey Morati about this, they are trying to create a short term goal for a long term endeavor and the short term goal is to be recognized for this offseason work that you're putting in the that isn't going to really show up until September. Jalen McLean like it is that guy is about nothing but business. It is, he is like it. It is striking to me how much Jaylen McLean is about business. And the guy, I mean I will be honest, the guy that it reminds me of of the like I am not here to mess around. I am here to get ready to play football. And every single thing I do at every moment of my life is to prepare me in the best possible way for that. It reminds me of AJ Hawk. It's like what's Dealing with, it's like, it is the not effing around crew. Bang. Got my jacket that like. And if, if that's what Iron Buckeye was as much as like, I think the fans respect Iron Buckeye. It was like, oh, did you hear Garrett Stillberts? He's in the not effing around crew now. It's like, yeah. And Jalen McLean is the leader of the not Effing around crew because he's been in it twice. It's like, I'm, I'm on. I'm with that guy. Like I'm with Jalen McClain. Get with Jaylen McLean and that so that guy will do. If you told Jaylen McLean your goal, your job is okay when the offense takes over on the 25 yard line, your goal, you have to go stand on the opposite end 75 yards away from the play. And we're getting, we designed a new position, it's called the don't let them scored position. And you have to stand on the goal line and if there's a 74 yard play, make a tackle up the one. He'd be like, sir, yes sir, I'll do it. And if they said you have to stand an inch from the center and try to leapfrog over the center at the snap and try to rip the snap out of the quarterback's hands on the center quarterback exchange, he'd be like, okay, I'm gonna go practice jumping over people. Like, that guy is so locked in and I am eager to see him have an opportunity to do things other than be the deepest guy in the field.
- [38:09]
B
Yeah, I think he, like, you almost have to give it to him. Right, like, and like, let's not that being the deepest guy in the middle of the field is an unimportant job. Watch a team score a couple 40 yard touchdowns and then we'll figure out
- [38:22]
A
you want, you watch one banana angle, you'll pay a gazillion. It's like, can I pay $4 million in nil for a safety who won't allow this 80 yard touchdown run? Yeah, for sure, right.
- [38:32]
B
But Jaylen McLean is just like the kind of guy that, because what we're talking about, like you're, you know, you move down closer to the line of scrimmage, you're going to be around the ball more, you're going to have an opportunity to make more plays. And he just seems like he is the guy who will maximize whichever position you put him in. So like, why not put him a little down down closer to the action give him a chance to get his hand on the ball, maybe tip some passes, maybe pick some passes off. Cause some fumbles the way the Kayla Downs was, was doing. Like there's just, there's a lot to tap into there that I just, I don't, I don't, I don't think he's primarily or needs to exclusively be a guy who's just playing a deep middle of the field all the time. I think you'd almost be wasting a little bit of something in that way if you only kept him in that spot. So I'm excited to see that and I think, and I think they want to unleash a little bit of that. Not only because he can do it well, but also as like a, you know, thanks for doing your part when you were a sophomore and we had the best safety in the country and like now it's your turn kind of thing, right?
- [39:29]
A
Yeah.
- [39:29]
B
Because who knows, this could be his last year. Like, I don't, I don't know that he's a four year player. He could be a two year starter and be gone. So we'll see what it looks like. But did you see while you're talking to Iron Buckeye, by the way, What Earl Little Jr. Said?
- [39:42]
A
Yeah.
- [39:43]
B
About the weight, about the weight room.
- [39:44]
A
Oh.
- [39:45]
B
Somebody asked him difference between Ohio State and Alabama and he said we didn't compete like this in the weight room in Alabama.
- [39:57]
A
I mean, I'm not saying the former Alabama guys coming to Ohio State are trying to get Kaylin DeBoer fired, but. But I'm just. I don't know, man. But I guess he was there for a little bit of Saban too. So Saban. Saban lost his fast.
- [40:11]
B
He left after say. No, no, he left. He was there for one year. He was a freshman. Is that right? Yeah, he was a freshman for Saban. Saban left.
- [40:21]
A
Okay.
- [40:22]
B
I think I have this right because he was the same recruiting class as Caleb Downs. Right. He's a, he's a 4th year guy. Right.
- [40:29]
A
He's.
- [40:29]
B
He's not a 2022 guy, is he?
- [40:31]
A
No, he's a 4th Year guy. But was he at Alabama one year or two?
- [40:34]
B
No. Okay. He's a 2022 guy. So he was at Alabama for two years. Two years of Saban Saban retired.
- [40:40]
A
Okay.
- [40:42]
B
Then he went to Florida State.
- [40:43]
A
Okay. So he's not saying anything about Kaylin Deborah. He's just saying Nick Saban lost his fastball. Okay, great. Also, we'll accept that. And also again, a free sword Trinity Bama guy who comes and talks about how Bama ain't this who's the slot, who's the star. So if that like Earl Little is left and here is where to be kind to myself again, we will not call it confusion. We will call it curiosity. Earl Little last year at Florida State by PFF played 376 snaps at free safety. He played 226 snaps in the box and he played 65 snaps in the slot. And he is the guy who's left to be most like not exactly like the Jordan Hancock Lorenzo Styles position where Jordan Hancock played 419 snaps in the slot in 2024 and Lorenzo Styles played 223 there last year but that was like double where he played anywhere else. And is that actually what Earl Little is going to do
- [41:48]
B
for the sake of the conversation?
- [41:50]
A
Sure.
- [41:51]
B
I don't like he was. He was asked today, Wednesday, hey Earl, what are you doing? Where are you playing? And he said, they have me as a moving piece. I'm not at just one spot.
- [42:02]
A
So that sounds more like Caleb Downs, but then we can do. Can we have two Caleb downs? Like can the answer be there's so for comparing it to 2025, there's a Jalen McLean that's not Jalen Mcclain but then instead of a Caleb Downs in the runto style there's two Caleb downs. And is that okay? There is no Lorenzo Styles.
- [42:22]
B
I think so. Yeah.
- [42:23]
A
And there is no Jordan Hancock because Earl Little and Jalen McClain are gonna sort of be in the box as the star sort of over the slot. But we're not like it's going to be a lot of. Right. You look like you're over the slot at the snap, but then it turns out that you drop and a linebacker comes over and we're in a thing that we're not. You know that. But yet if that, that play with Omar Cooper Jr. That we talked about that you said's not. That is a It is zone. It's not man. But yet the situation called for Lorenzo Styles to try to turn and run with Omar Cooper Jr. Would Earl Little or Jaylen McLean be able to turn and run with a first round receiver in that situation if it happened in 2026?
- [43:15]
B
Maybe. I, I don't know. Like, I just, I'm trying to think if like Jayla McLean was asked to do that like even once last year, right. And there's nothing that's sticking out to me. Earl Little probably right. Just because he has like a little bit of that corner Background, he has kind of moved around some.
- [43:34]
A
Really has not played out. Like, that's not played a ton of corner snaps in college, though. Like, the corner background, he like came in that way, but it really hasn't played that way.
- [43:43]
B
Lorenzo Styles didn't either.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah, but Lorenzo styles runs like a 4:2. So I'm curious. Like, if. If. Yeah, so, like, I don't. So this is, again, a curiosity. Curiosity. I'm not doubting. I'm just super curious. But if the answer is there, there is no Lorenzo Styles. And. And nobody can be Caleb downs, but Jalen McClain and Earl Little can both be pieces of Caleb Downs. And we promise you, we're not going to get smoked by slot receivers. We got this. It's like, okay.
- [44:13]
B
And I. And I guess it could be like, if you're playing a team that has a slot receiver, that does scare you, for lack of a better word, maybe you throw an entirely different secondary configuration out there. And because I think what the. Guerrero said, They can do packages of three safeties and two corners. And two corners and three safeties, like, there's all. They can get a little funky with it, I think, if they wanted to. So, like, if you're. I don't know, like usc and I don't say they're playing USC last year, like. Like what Kai Lemon is on is on the scout sheet. Right. Like, maybe that's a game where Lorenzo doesn't play as much. Right. And you're playing Dre Matthews inside more because the matchup sort of dictates it.
- [45:11]
A
Right. So that's. That's what I am curious about. That's what I am curious about. Because the other part of this is if they have four safeties who are starting quality for these three spots and they can all move around and do those things. Like the second team star is a freshman cornerback in Jay Timmons.
- [45:30]
B
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
- [45:31]
A
Right.
- [45:32]
B
If I were. If I were putting it on paper. Yeah, that's how I would put it. Yeah.
- [45:35]
A
And Jay Timmons, this is what Tim Walton. So this is another one of those things that just. Doug's curiosity gets peaked. Jay Timmons is with the cornerbacks, but then is playing that star position, whereas Earl Little and Jayla McLean are with the safeties and then we'll end up playing that star position. Jay Timmons, people have talked about him. Jeremiah Smith talked about him, said he's going to be great. Tim Walton on Jay Timmons, very competitive, great skill set, good toughness, can cover good hip fluidity, good blitzer, Poised. He takes coaching. He loves to compete. Football is important to him. Pleasantly surprised with his progress. So, like, Jay Timmons is here and you've been told Jay Timmons is here, and like, that sounds to me like that sounds exactly what you want potentially in a star that's more Jordan Hancock. Right. And it's just that, like, yeah, right. So. So it's. It's all I get. The point is different types of guy can be in here. They'll play to people's strengths, that kind of thing. But I'm just super curious to see how it ends up working out, which is why I wanted to start with. Start with the screenshots of how they played it last year because it's not exactly square peg, square hole for me. I think there's reasons to have lots of optimism about those four safeties, but I'm still curious about the fit smi.
- [46:56]
B
And I think, like, I would probably bet right now on April 8 that there's a J. Timmons package to start the season. And then it's like, boy, that J. Timmons package looks pretty good. Maybe we should add a little more to it. And then all of a sudden, it's like, Jake Timmons is one of our five best defensive packs. And then who knows where you go from there? Like, I do. I think there. I think some of this could be fluid throughout the year where, like, you have. You have these four safeties you feel really good about. I think you have three corners. Matthew Sanchez, probably Dominic Kelly. There's, like, guys who can play on the outside. Because I don't think J. Timmons, for as much as everyone says about him, he's, as we said before, he's five' 11. I just don't think he's gonna play on the outside. So you have like three outside guys, and then Jay Timmons is like the wild card who can kind of float between both rooms. And that leads you to having a ton of options that I think is exciting. It's going to be pretty fun. I think Ohio State's pretty fired up about. But then also creates this sort of situation we're in at the moment where it's like, you can't. It'd be great to pinpoint, like, this is what it's going to look like, but I don't think anyone, Ohio State's coaches included, are in a position to say that right now.
- [48:19]
A
Talking about corners. So is there anything else you want to. Good conversation with Macareri. Anything else you want to cover? Sorry, I went 45 minutes on safety. I'm quick safety confusion in the headline of this. Anything else from Macareri talking about these safety options? Other than, like, people are like, freshman Blaine Bradford. They're like, oh, my God. Yeah, that guy's.
- [48:40]
B
Guerrero was not asked about him specifically, but I know some of the players talked about him. I thought it was interesting that, like, Guerrero talked a lot about communication, the importance of communication at the same position and how their best communicator, obviously, was Caleb Downs. And when he looked at the room and what they had coming back and where they were gonna be needing to improve the most, like, that was the area he circled, like, getting guys on the same page, making sure everyone's aligned, making sure guys are talking the right way, communicating the right information to each other. And it reminded me of, like, a moment in Saturday's student appreciation. I think the starters were out there, so I think it was. I think it was. Terry Moore and Jalen McLean were, like, kind of ended up on a specific play as, like, kind of like two deeper safeties. And Guerrero's, like, yelling at him from the sideline. So one of them, like, you're the field. He's the boundary. You guys got to talk and make sure you're on the same page. Like, they're really harping on it. But then after. After McCreary said that on Wednesday, well, after practice was over, Matt Patricia is standing over by the benches by the door deletes to the locker room, and sitting on the benches are Caleb Downs, who's still around, and Jayla McLean. And Matt Patricia is, like, barking out safety calls, like, mimicking being a safety, doing all the hand gestures. And so, like, he says something. Caleb down says something. Jaylen McLean just, like, nodding along the whole time. And it's like, here are these. Like, here's the architect of the defense. Here's the most important defensive player from last year.
- [50:08]
A
And.
- [50:08]
B
And they are imparting their wisdom onto Jaylen McLean after the 10th practice of the spring. And I just thought it was kind of cool.
- [50:16]
A
Yeah, you were, like, kind of looking over at that, and I was like, what's looking at? It's like, I'm absorbing defense. Please leave me alone. Jalen McLean did say he's working on being more vocal. He said Sunny and Caleb were the lead community communicators on the team. So I'm working on being more vocal on and off the field. It's something I had to work on. Like, it doesn't come as naturally for him for the not effort around crew. Like, he's kind of the strong, silent type. All the coaches on the staff are challenging me to work on it and get better at it is what Jalen McLean said about that. So, okay corners I did, I said to Tim Walton, like, okay, if it's Jermaine Matthews and Devin Sanchez and you needed a third corner on the field like tomorrow, who would it be? And he basically told me to get lost because he's like, we're still trying to figure that out. But Dominic Kelly, second year player, transfer from Georgia. It feels like a lot of people think like it would be him. And here's what Tim Walton said about Dominic Kelly. What he's showing consistency and discipline, which is like, oh, he's caught the coach's attention, right? That it's like this is a, this is a young guy and he's all like Ryan Day talks about all the time. It's like, well, you're showing us flashes. You have to be consistent. And the first word Tim Walton said about Dom Kelly was consistency. We know what we're getting every day. He's level headed, he's a smooth operator. And every day we know what we get out of him. He's smart and he understands the game. So like it's like, okay, he's a third corner, right? Like, and this is one of those where like you're curious, like, could it even be some sort of rotation? It's interesting. So he's talking up the young guys on Devin Sanchez. He was like, we need him to be dominant. And he said like the first week of spring practice was just okay for Devin Sanchez. And then he said now the last couple weeks have been better. And Devin Sanchez, when he spoke on Wednesday, said like, he wants to win the Thorp Award. He wants to be an All American. He said he was timid last year. He's playing with more confidence. So like that's Tim Walton's first thing he said about Devin Sanchez wasn't praise. It was we need him to be
- [52:20]
B
dominant because did your antennas go up my toes?
- [52:23]
A
It's like they're, they know this guy has. Can be great. They know he can be great.
- [52:29]
B
Yeah.
- [52:29]
A
And then Jermaine Matthews, Tim Walton said that last season didn't end the way he wanted to. So it's like this one. So like the two most locked in corners, one is a guy who they, they're trying to. Right, You've got all American potential. Let's go get it. And then Jermaine Matthews says he said he's the leader of the room.
- [52:45]
B
Yeah.
- [52:45]
A
But yet he's coming off, like, a rough end of the season. And, like, we already talked to Jermaine Matthews, but, like, that's like. That's. That's like an interesting thing. And then there's this group of. Jordan Thomas, who caught our eye the first two practices. Apparently, Tim Walton said he's been maybe not out at every single practice. He said he's been down was the phraseology he used. So it's like, okay, maybe he's been limited a little bit. And then you talk about Dominic Kelly, you talk about Cam Calhoun, who's a veteran transfer from Michigan, Utah and Alabama, and there's just opportunity there, but obviously it's like, keep your eye on Dominic Kelly.
- [53:21]
B
Yeah, I think. And I think that the Kelly Calhoun thing will be interesting to monitor because I game tomorrow, obviously, the two top corners are Jermaine Matthews and Devin Sanchez. And while I think the room is interesting and deep and will be competitive, I don't think that'll change very much. So then what happens at that third spot? And I think, like, the fact that you have a true sophomore who feels like he's on the rise, who has his stuff together, and. And a senior who's got some decent experience, played really well, like, sort of like the one full season he got as a starter, that's pretty good, I think, in terms of depth and in terms of options, and I'm excited to see how that plays out. And I also, like, just some of it is what we got to see, like, a small sample size in the practice on Saturday combined with, like, some of the video clips that have come out of practice, and also just how Devin Sanchez was talking on Wednesday. I. I think he might have it. Like, I think.
- [54:22]
A
I think.
- [54:23]
B
I think we're. We're about to see him take off.
- [54:26]
A
Yeah, I think that's probably right. And I, you know, again, tried to ask Tim Walton. We saw Jermaine Matthews move inside at times last year. Again, from our screenshot, this is them healthy in the Big Ten championship game. And
- [54:42]
B
God, production values here.
- [54:45]
A
I can't get it off. Wait, there it is. You see Jermaine Matthews. We had the screenshot up again. Jermaine Matthews inside. Devin Sanchez is wide. He's to the field, and then IGB's to the boundary right there on the outside. And Jermaine Matthews. So, like, from a corner perspective, I was trying to ask. We saw Matthews move inside at times last year. Are you still comfortable with that? Would you prefer that he stay outside? And he said, we're still moving Guys around, We're still working things out. But I'm curious, like, in this set up, if they have three safeties on the field in 2026, if you had to guess right now, would it be more likely that it would be Devin Sanchez and Dominic Kelly outside and Jermaine Matthews in the slot? Or maybe Jermaine Matthews and Devin Sanchez outside and Jay Timmons in the game as a slot guy in a situation like this?
- [55:36]
B
That's a really good question because I, I think that when I say like a Jay Timmons package, that's kind of what I have in mind. Okay. Tomorrow, this, this configuration, I think. Yeah, yeah. I think it could change by August because they did, they did a little bit of that at the Student Appreciation Day practice and Kelly and Sanchez were outside of. Matthews was in the slot. So they're working on that at least a little bit. I don't think Sanchez or Kelly will play in a slot. I think they're like, they're both like pretty, like tall, long corners. Like you want that on the perimeter. And clearly they think Jermaine's interesting because I think Jermaine has like some safety instincts to him a little bit. Like, like, I think he could be like a version of a Jordan Hancock or, or Lorenzo Styles maybe. And clearly they think that like, like playing inside. Everyone, like the hardest thing you do as a defensive back is playing a slot because of the two way go and the speed you're talking, the speed you're dealing with. You don't have a natural boundary there via the sideline. So my guess is that they would probably roll with Jermaine inside in that situation for right now. But I'm very much on alert for here comes Jay Tibbins. And then if that were the case, then it's probably Jermaine and Devin outside with Timmons in the slot.
- [56:57]
A
Yeah. And that really, again, that's maybe less about Jermaine Matthews and more it's like a J. Timmons versus Dominic Kelly situation. It just feels like maybe they want to get dominant Kelly in games. Right.
- [57:06]
B
Yeah. And I, I also like, it could be a situation and this is where it gets like, like potentially like pretty funky. If you really want to maximize your coverage ability, then you have Kelly, Sanchez, Matthews and Timmons on the field and you take one of the safeties off. Right?
- [57:21]
A
Right. But if you have four safeties you love who are all doing everything right. Right. Is your dime package a chance to get more safeties on the field or actually to get fewer safeties on the field, Like, I don't know. But again, if you have eight, they have a chance to have like eight guys they really believe in on the back end. I think. Yeah, the four safeties we're talking about Sanchez, Matthews, Dominic Kelly and potentially Jace Immons. And that's like really Cam Calhoun who's been around. Blaine Bradford who's a baller. Like just it's what we talked about before. There's a real chance and I like, I think the headline of this is like that you saying that this has a chance to be the strength of the team. I don't think at the end of the defense.
- [58:02]
B
Yeah, I think it does. I don't like. And that's not because I think they're deficient elsewhere, but if you just survey what they have back what they've done in the Portal, I think it's definitively the strength of the defense. And then you have a conversation, I guess about the secondary versus like the receiver, quarterback, passing attack combination.
- [58:26]
A
And I, I will tell you the, the distance between you saying that and Fahim Delaine, Aaron Scott and Bryce west just want the Portal. I mean is. It's just a reminder, I think for everybody in this new era. Those were three young, youngish, right. Two third year guys and a second year guy that you could have projected certainly at least two of those three guys as starters. Like if the Portal didn't exist and you just had to stay with what you. We might be looking at a world right where Fahim Delane is, is probably a starting safety, Bryce west is maybe in contention for the star stuff and Aaron Scott is like in the Dominic Kelly role as the third outside corner, right?
- [59:13]
B
Definitely. Yeah.
- [59:14]
A
And they lost all those guys. Fahim Delay into lsu, Aaron Scott to Oregon and Bryce west to Wisconsin. These guys aren't dropping down to go to FCS schools. And we're sitting here saying the collection of secondary guys Ohio State has might make it the strength of the team. It's just way the world works now.
- [59:31]
B
Yeah, it's pretty crazy and I think like there was a question asked about Macareri that sort of by. By Berm. That sort of not. I mean he pretty much said sort of straightforward, like you had some just tough decisions to make on who we're going to pay for and not pay for in the secondary. And like they chose to pay for Leroy Roker. So like, you know, I think in an ideal world they would have loved to keep all those guys, but some tough decisions had to be made and then they did a pretty good job of Backfilling once those guys decided to leave and perhaps upgraded.
- [60:03]
A
Yep. So, okay. Anything else you want to say about the secondary?
- [60:11]
B
No, I was trying to decide if I wanted to predict back to back Thorpe awards for Ohio State. I just don't know who it would be. I don't know who it would be.
- [60:25]
A
Yeah.
- [60:25]
B
Who do you think their best DB is going to be?
- [60:29]
A
Jalen McLean.
- [60:31]
B
Yeah, I would say McLean or Sanchez.
- [60:34]
A
Yeah. What do you think of the not effing around crew? Would you wear a satin jacket that said that? But.
- [60:42]
B
But satin. Satin to me is effing around like you want leather.
- [60:45]
A
Oh, okay. Do you think we should attempt. My last attempt to bestow a nickname, the Landlord on Davis. Think we know some. Was like somebody already has that nickname. Get away from me, old man. So like that didn't go great. Could we call the entire secondary the not effort around crew? Because that's like that, like I started off saying like we should call the Iron Buckeyes that. But what if it's like this group of guys like, because, because Jalen McClain's not. But like Devin Sanchez is not effing around. I don't think Earl Little is here to f around.
- [61:23]
B
Like he's definitely not. Yeah.
- [61:24]
A
Blaine Bradford is not about effing around. Like this is the Not Now Jermaine might, he might sometimes Jermaine might.
- [61:33]
B
But I don't think talking. I don't think talking trash means you're not serious.
- [61:37]
A
No, that's true. So I don't know. That's it's, it's fraught. It's probably maybe just best to keep it between us and our few thousand friends here rather than try to present it to these guys. I thought, I probably think I'm out of the business of, of 50 year old men attempting to give nicknames to 20 year old college football players.
- [61:55]
B
So I thought, I thought Landlord was really good. And I'm, I'm still bummed out that Davidson didn't want to embrace that.
- [62:02]
A
Oh, well. All right. So this is Wednesday on Friday, running backs and special teams. So that will be practice 11 and that's who we will speak to afterwards. So we'll be back then. And I just will say I put out the bat call. Dane Brugler, friend of the program, released the beast. His NFL draft guide at the Athletic came out today, Wednesday, April 8th. And when we talked to him at the combine, he was like, let me get through the Beast. And then he said he'd come on. So I said, congratulations on getting the Beast done. We'd love to have you on the Bill and Doug Show. So hopefully we'll have Dame Brugler sooner than later, talk about some of these Buckeyes in the draft and then, you know, bunch of other stuff. Bill and Doug O issue.substack.com you had a really good, interesting breakdown about offensive line continuity that went up the other day. We'll have this iron Buckeye story coming. Lots of other stuff. And we appreciate everybody who's over there. We appreciate everybody who's here. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice. And that was the Bill and Doug Show.