← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Ohio State spring game reactions: Julian Sayin, Tavien St. Clair, Chris Henry Jr. and more
00:38:24
Ohio State held its spring football game on Saturday in Ohio Stadium, and Bill Landis and Doug Lesmerises where there to take it ll in. On this postgame episode of The Bill and Doug Show, they react with the three most interesting things they learned on each side of the ball.
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- [00:00]
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Doug Lamorice
Oh, no.
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- [01:06]
Doug Lamorice
Welcome back to the Bill and Doug show. I'm Doug Lamorice. He's Bill Landis. We're talking about the Ohio State spring game that, that just ended. And we are gonna do a good show here, Bill. And then we're gonna go over and do even more with our substack people. But we're excited to have everybody here with us right now.
- [01:28]
Bill Landis
Yeah, excited to kind of do quick, quick first blush reaction to what we saw on Saturday. Glad they got the game in. I was, I was getting nervous as we were getting closer to it because it was getting pretty dark right around the time the game started. But I know people got wet sitting there in Ohio Stadium, but I'm glad they got all four quarters in.
- [01:45]
Doug Lamorice
Yes, it could have been much worse that, that people. We, we were lucky to see some friends out there. Some, some listeners, some viewers said hel. To some people who were in the stands, it was like, oh, like how, how bad was it at the end? It's like, well, we had our ponchos on. It was okay. So I, I think everybody had an okay day. They announced a crowd of 40,240. That wasn't right. But that's mine.
- [02:09]
Bill Landis
Yeah, you know, I think they were expecting a big crowd. You usually get a decent, I think like quasi walk up crowd for a spring game and I think the weather probably scared some people away. But yeah, it wasn't empty. It wasn't empty. Like it was lower bowl, lower bowl wasn't full. But you know, it was a decent crowd.
- [02:24]
Doug Lamorice
All things considered and worth going out there. I hope if you did go out there, you had a great time. I hope if you watch on the Big Ten network, you learn some things. We're gonna do kind of six quick, quick hit things, three from each side of the ball when over on our sub stack during the game, Bill watched offense, I watched defense. We put up some quick hit post game, show some post game notes on the substack Bill and Doug O issue substack.com so, like, we'll focus on that here and Bill will start on the offensive side of the ball with you. We're gonna go about half an hour with you guys here. Just like kind of get out. Like, what's, like, this is on our mind. What's on your mind?
- [03:04]
Bill Landis
Davey and Sinclair. Okay. There's a long, you know, I think like a decent, decently long conversation to be had about that, but I think I would just like talk about him, right? He's, he's a big game hunter and I like it. He likes to throw the ball down the field and I like it. Sometimes it might go to the other team and I'm okay with it.
- [03:32]
Doug Lamorice
There's like upside to the clouds. Yeah, right. Like the, the, the, the deep ball shots when he gets out of the pocket on the move a little bit and it's like, I don't know what's going to happen, but it might take four guys to tackle him. Like, he just, there are moments where he looks big and strong and thoughtful in the pocket, and it's like, man, this guy's got this. But then there's like a couple loose balls still in there. Right? There's a couple loose that are part of the package right now. So we saw them practice on Friday at Ohio Stadium. They were kind enough to let the media in for that before we saw the spring game on Saturday, and I think both days was there not like a ceiling with Tavian Saint Saint Clair and then just a little bit of enough looseness to pull you back, but not that far. You're like, feel free to walk out to the edge with David Sinclair and just veer over the horizon. Like, look at what's out there. It's like the Lion King. This can be yours, Tavian. Like, this kingdom can be yours. But, and that's a wonderful thing.
- [04:36]
Bill Landis
It is a wonderful thing. I, I, I think it's a very interesting conversation. Like, what would you rather have, like a, a timid quarterback who you're trying to bring more out of, or an aggressive quarterback who you're Trying to reign in a little bit. And I think Tavian is pro ladder and Julian saying is probably the former. So we can, we can, we can dive into that more later. Tavian on Friday at the practice, throw an interception in the red zone. Should have had, should have thrown two more interceptions and in the spring game, probably should have thrown two interceptions, if I'm remembering correctly, in the first half and that game, they had like, you know, another one or two that were off target, but, boy, can he throw the ball down the field. And is it fun to watch. He's got, he's got a, he's just kind of really. He's like, he's a big kid. Like, it comes off his hand nice and it's just like, it's a, it's a little bit of a, of a rocket launcher. I don't even think, like, I don't think Julian's a bad downfield thrower. He was very efficient doing it last year, but this was really just kind of the first opportunity. I know Tavian played in the spring game last year, and I think also threw two interceptions in that game. But this is kind of like the first extended look at him where he was like, really operating, I think a little more of the offense and kind of letting it loose. And he just got a, a much better feel for what he's about when it comes to the type of throws he can make. And even I thought some of his athletic ability when he had to escape some pressure and got to the edge and ran a little bit. So it. A lot of the talk, I think coming out of the spring game from a lot of people will be about him because of what he put on display. But I also think it needs to come with a little bit of a caveat. Like this was, although he's a second year player who was playing in his second spring game, this also felt like a little bit of an introduction to Tavian Sinclair. So when you, when that happens and the guy does some things that, that are a little bit flashy, people, I think rightfully so get very excited.
- [06:26]
Doug Lamorice
Yeah, it's. And, and we see the people. I think a lot of people in the chat are on the right, in the right area here, which is this is. This is not a who should be Ohio State starting quarterback. But like the, this is one of those things. Like, you watch that in that stadium, and I think every Ohio State fan watched Tavian Sinclair and said, I hope I see this guy be the starting quarterback for Ohio State someday. Right. And, and, and when we were doing our, our Northern football thing. I remember, like, watching C.J. carr's first spring game at Notre Dame, and I was like, oh, my God. And it was like, is. Is C.J. carr gonna beat out Riley Leonard's like, no. Like, that's not what this is. Riley Leonard then led Notre Dame to the national championship game that year. And then the next year, CJ Carr was ready to be the starting quarterback. And even he, like, had maybe a little blip, couple blips early in the season last year for Notre Dame, but then was really good by the end of the year, and now he's back to be a year two starter at Notre Dame. But you watch C.J. carr play and you're like, oh, my. Someday. And I think for people, this is an audience of people who know and love Ohio State football. But if, if you're just coming across the Ohio State spring game, I think you're thinking to yourself, oh, my gosh, I think that guy's going to be a good college quarterback. It doesn't mean September, but.
- [07:54]
Bill Landis
No, I don't. Yeah, I don't think it means September either. I just, like, I just thought it was cool to watch Tavian Sinclair do some stuff. I'm not, like, it's not about him. It's not him. It's not. I, I. Listen, we could, we could have that conversation whatever, 25 times between now in the Sparta start of spring and sell some subs and get some eyeballs, but I think we also want to be realistic about the situation. And like Julian saying is Ohio State starting quarterback. And I also think there's, there's. It's worth pointing out, too, because this was the same thing in this, in the Student Appreciation Day practice we got to watch a couple weeks ago. Taving got to operate a little more comfortably than Julian. Like, the second team offensive line against a second team defense blocked better than the first team offensive line against the first team defense. And like, Julian got sacked a couple of times and had guys in this lap quite a bit in a way that, sure, Tavian had some of that, but not nearly as much as Julian. And also, like, Julian got one drive with Jeremiah Smith and I think like another with Brandon Innocent, and then they were out. And then like, Julian's receivers were like Kyle Parker, Devin McEwen and David Adolf, and Tavian Sinclair was throwing The Chris Henry Jr. And Brock Boyd. I think I would have taken Tavian's receivers in that scenario. So there were circumstances that I think contributed to some of the. Or whatever, any kind of feeling that was like, whatever. Julian didn't play well and Tavian did, because I. I think Julian played fine, all things considered, too. But I was just. I wanted to see just sort of like where Tavian's at right now. And I thought this was like a very nice illustration of that, good and bad. Yeah.
- [09:27]
Doug Lamorice
I think a lot of the previous last year with Tavian Sinclair was like a soft launch, and this was like the introducing Tavian Sinclair moment. I think you were right about that, and I think you were smart. Like, this may be the only conversation and we even couldn't do it. We couldn't do it. It's like, can you talk about Tavian Sinclair without talking about the big picture of, like, what? And it's just like the second year guy from Ohio who was the number three rated recruit in his class, who really had a lot to learn last year as a true freshman, came out in sort of his first moment where he's fully acclimated now. He really knows what's up. He's playing in front of people, and he really did some good stuff. And that is nothing but a plus for the program, for the player, for the fans, for the podcasters. It's nothing but a plus. And if and when we all want to drive ourselves off that cliff. Right. Right now, we're just lifting Tavian up. Right? We're just lifting him up. Right. But we don't. Let. Let's not jump off the cliff. We don't have, like, it's fine. We're just here. We're basking in the sun of the moment, and we can do the rest of it later. Is your. Do you have. So for. It's you. And three things. Do you have a thing on the offensive side of the ball that's related to Julian saying, as one of your other things, or should we do a little Julian here?
- [10:51]
Bill Landis
No, I mean, I. I had. Well, I mean, I could. Yeah, certainly I had. I had two other kind of different things. I thought the best thing we saw from Julian was that was the touchdown that he ran in for that, like, whatever, in a real game, may not have been a touchdown, but I thought. I thought the feel in the pocket, the escape, the winning, the race to the corner against the defensive lineman was all real, was all legitimate, was all something that can be mimicked in a real game setting. And then he got to the end and like, I can't remember if it was Peyton Pierce or Christian Allegro, like, probably could have ripped his head off of the goal line if he wanted to. But of course, he didn't do that, so. But like, 98 of that play felt realistic to me. And it was just a thing that, like, we did not see him do a lot of last year. So I thought that was very, very encouraging.
- [11:33]
Doug Lamorice
And he said, you know, Dylan Davis asked a funny question of like, hey, if it was a real game, what would you have done at the goal line? He was like, I would put my show. I was gonna score, man. Know what it's like.
- [11:41]
Bill Landis
But was it. But he wasn't joking. Like, we all laughed. Haha. Funny. Julian's making a joke. And he was like. He was deadpan the whole time.
- [11:48]
Doug Lamorice
No, he basically said, I would die for that touchdown. Yeah. So we're like, maybe. Well, maybe you would have. It's fun because it's like there's the parts of it. Some of the stuff, like some of the stuff that leapt off the field with Tavian Sinclair today of like some of the deep shots to Chris Henry J. That kind of thing. It's like, well, Julian remember the throws. He remember the throw he made last year to Jeremiah Smith that used to said, what an effing throw. Like, he's done that. Remember the throated between two defenders. Carnell Tate, like, he's made, though. He's made those throws too. Right. So I think this is much more command, control, like command and control, but also a little cha cha cha. You want a little gunslinger. You want. So you think like, Tavia Sinclair is kind of like, oh, you want me to make a play? Do you want me to make a play? I'll make a play. And then now you. It's like that's pulled back to 20% where you hit a cornerback in the chest with a pass. Right, Right. And Julian saying is like, do you want me to be in control? You want me to be in control? And it's like, I'd like you a little bit, 20% more to think, I'm gonna make a play. I'm gonna make a play. And so it is a little bit of a push and pull. But some of that is going to be Julian playing freer and moving around and taking opportunities to run and just playing that way outside of the pocket is like. Is good on its own, but also I think is like a. A clue to a mindset of playing freer and looking to like, really do some stuff. And there. There was that. That's what you're talking about?
- [13:29]
Bill Landis
I. Yeah, I. There was. And I also think that this would actually sort of. Do you want me to run through. Am I going to run through all three of my points first and then we're going to do defense or you're going to.
- [13:36]
Doug Lamorice
Yeah, let' Nobody cares about defense.
- [13:38]
Bill Landis
Let's just start with the offense because, because I, I did think these two ideas kind of go together. I, I did think we saw a little bit of what Arthur Smith wants to bring to the table. Oh, and, and part of that, I think is like more movement, throws in the offense, a lot of boots, a lot of play action stuff.
- [13:55]
Doug Lamorice
And he's comfortable. Isn't Julian that, that's gonna bring out a nice side of Julian, is it not?
- [14:00]
Bill Landis
I think it will, yeah. That's why I kind of like this marriage. When Ryan Day made the higher. But, but I, I think, I think one, Julian's very comfortable throwing on the move. Like when he had the throw like on the run outside of the pocket last year, I thought he looked really good for the most part. But I also think there's, there could be something too. When you are asked to kind of make those on the move, they're not improvisational, but I guess they like, they can feel that way sometimes as just like sort of part of the offense. Then maybe when it is time to improvise, that's a little easier to tap into. I, maybe I'm wrong and talking to
- [14:32]
Doug Lamorice
my butt, I don't know.
- [14:32]
Bill Landis
But like, like if that were true, like, that would make sense to me if I like looking at it from the quarterback's perspective. So I think the offense suits. Suits them both Tavian and, and Julian really well. And I think it could be, you know, a little similar to what we saw with, with Justin Fields at quarterback when they were doing a lot of that stuff with him too. So I, I didn't come out of the spring game at like at all thinking like, boy, Julian's, Julian doesn't have it. Like, I think there are things, I think there are things that he's continuing to figure out, stuff he's trying to add to his game. I think with all of that he's got a command of the offense and that's important. So I think they're in a good spot and like, it's okay. And I think you want. Because we could all get excited about like the five star guy who's behind the starter. Right. But we really didn't know whether or not Tavian Sinclair can play. And certainly like one spring game is on a guarantee that he can. But he showed some stuff that shows like, yeah, maybe he will be able to if they ever needed him this year. And then when they need him down the line to start, I like, clearly he's got a ton of talent, so that was great to see. Yeah.
- [15:34]
Doug Lamorice
Okay. Was that. So what's your other offensive stuff?
- [15:39]
Bill Landis
Well, one more thing on the Arthur Smith thing, like I thought in addition to the, the play action stuff, I thought though there was a little bit of like 13 personnel in this game. But I like, I kind of like the way that he deployed it. Like, like it was, we're going to create like an eight man front. We're not going to play 13 personnel but have like one of the guys in the backfield and one of the guys in the slot because he's more of a big slot receiver and not really an inline tight end. I was like, no, we're gonna play 13 with three tight ends who are bigger bodies who can block and create this really wide rushing surface for you to, to account for. Reminded me a little bit of what Michigan did back when Harbaugh was there. It's just like there are. You create more gaps you really should like. It's a version of stretching a defense out and obviously that gives you more lanes to run. I think it creates better angles, but then it sets up a lot of good play action stuff too. So it wasn't like we didn't get the full Arthur Smith, you know, experience in this game, but there were a couple things here and there sprinkled in that I thought, like, oh, I can. That seems interesting to me. I'm curious to see how they build off of that or how they built off of this. But it's gonna be a lot of play action and I think actually I, I'll go back and I didn't chart it as we were watching it live. I will re watch it and chart it. But whatever percentage of the time they were under center today, I expect them to be under center more during the fall.
- [16:57]
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- [17:00]
Doug Lamorice
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- [17:03]
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- [17:35]
Doug Lamorice
and, Doug,
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- [17:48]
Doug Lamorice
Oh, no.
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- [18:07]
Doug Lamorice
And the last thing was, Chris, the one that. Where they put the three tight ends, and I think they had Max LeBlanc maybe out as the farthest right tight end. And they ran. They, like, ran through a gap on that side, and he just had, like, a nice block on Devin Sanchez on the end, and it was like, oh, yeah, Big, giant tight end is blocking the corner. And, like, it, like, it just looked a little bit like at the end of that Miami game when Miami was just like, let's make a block here, a block there, and a block there, and, like, hit a run, and Mark Fletcher is going to do some business. Like, it's just a moment, right? But it was just like, sometimes when they had the multiple tight ends. I mean, not sometimes. By the end of the year, last year, when they put multiple tight ends in the game, Ohio State fans were closing their eyes like, I don't want to watch this crap. Yes. And. And to your point, this was like, oh, no, it can be good. Because it's like, guess what happened on that play. Max LeBlanc is blocking a guy who's like, 40 pounds lighter than him and creating a gap for a running back to run through. And it's like, well, okay, then. Go ahead. Okay, Keenan Bailey, let's feed your fellas if you're gonna use them this way. Right. It was just like a. A moment, but I was like, yeah, no, this could be good.
- [19:13]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I. I think we'll see where it goes. I don't. I don't know that they're going to play a ton of 13 personnel this year, but if that's how they're going to do it, I. I would find that a little more kind of palatable than what they did last year. Last thing was Chris Henry Jr. For me, on the offensive side, I. Obviously, he really popped, and it sort of just coincides with what's felt like a late spring push here from. From Chris Henry Jr. I thought, like, you know, it's sort of been like a Chris Henry Jr. Brock Boyd conversation. I think one thing that's clear is like both those guys are ahead of Draquaid and Guilford. Like, clearly they're not saying that can't change. That's sort of the way that it feels right now. Dr. Quaden, I think, was with the threes more often than not, and those two guys were with the twos and sometimes and Chris was with the ones, I think a couple of times. He is a big old cat and pretty explosive and looked good catching the ball over the middle on the run. And aside from that one drop that he had on a pass from Tavian, I thought that this was also a pretty good introduction to Chris Henry.
- [20:15]
Doug Lamorice
So I've been operating under the assumption more of. Because Henry Jr. Is Jeremiah Smith's backup. That's. I don't know how much we'll see him on the field with Jeremiah. You've been more of the idea if Chris Henry Jr. Is next, but Jeremiah Smith can move around. And also, by the way, like, don't you want to get these guys on the field together? I did wonder after today and just discussing the gravity that Jeremiah Smith brings to the field every time he steps on it and what he does to a defense. I think for an offense to work best when you have Jeremiah Smith, you need to make them pay receiver, right? Hey. Oh, great. You're gonna. Well, I double cover Jeremiah too. And Cornell Tate made them pay like that might be. And it's not. It's not a shot at Carnell Tate, but we understand what Jeremiah Smith was last year. But the moment that you put too much towards Jeremiah Smith, bang. Carnell Tate makes you pay, right? Time after time, every time he's a make you pay receiver. And as we like, hey, Kyle Parker and Devin McEwen and Brandon Ennis making a leap and it's like all that stuff is great, right? Are they make you pay receivers as their make you pay potential in McEwen, Parker and Brandon Ennis, like, I don't know, there might be solid veteran make catches and move the ball.
- [21:52]
Bill Landis
I think there's. Yeah, I, I get what you're saying. Like, I think. I think there's within. Especially with. With Parker and McEwen. We'll see innocent not play a ton today. But I know he's like trying to work to be more explosive. I think that there are some speed elements there that they could take advantage of in the middle of when you're trying to. To make a team pay for the attention to give the Jeremiah. But if you want to talk about the. The big ball? The ball over the top to Carnell. Yeah. I think. I think that Chris Henry Jr. Very well could be your guy. Yeah.
- [22:22]
Doug Lamorice
That there were just moments and it came against twos. Right. So it's like Chris Henry Jr. Is putting some twos in a blender, but you're just watching like, okay, like if this is like Chris Henry Jr. Kind of manned up against a team's second best corner because Jeremiah is sucking everybody. There's some make you pay moments that might be out there. And it worked so well last year. And to ask Chris Henry to junior come in and be Carnell Tate is crazy. But like some version of that sometimes. That's what the moments today made me think of.
- [22:58]
Bill Landis
Yeah, it did too. And I think, like, again, I want to. I'll. It's. I think it's insane sometimes, like chart a spring game. It's just a practice, but like, it's what we have. It's on tv. We'll do it. It mimics a real game. I felt like the ball was in the middle of the field more today when they were throwing it. I know Chris Henry's junior's touchdown was on the outside down the field, but like I. It felt that way again. I didn't chart it live. Like, I'm eager upon re watch to see if that. If that actually adds up because I think a lot of people believe that Ohio State kind of just left some meat on the bone in the middle of the field last year and it would be much better for them if they didn't do that. And it seemed like maybe they were operating in that area of the field a little more today.
- [23:35]
Doug Lamorice
I. I still think. I think I feel like every first year starting quarterback, maybe not C.J. stroud as much, but I feel like a first year starting quarterback is just normal. Like you're just like the over the defense under, like the layered throws, the crowd in the middle of the field. And it's like, you know what? If you can take some of the right. The free money outside stuff, if you've got a big enough arm and you can get a free 9 to 12 yards, you take some deep shots when they're there. You check it down when it's not. I feel like that's like, that's the graduation to. I can deal with the dirty middle and then. But that. And if. If that's like Julian at their. Julian Sands graduating to that. I feel like Justin Fields graduated to that in year two as a starter and to just get maybe like Tavian Sinclair thinking that way. I think that's all good.
- [24:22]
Bill Landis
Yeah, I agree.
- [24:24]
Doug Lamorice
All right, let's talk about defense. You were smart. You asked Ryan Day about Earl Little Jr. The Florida State transfer at safety who we had not seen lately. We had talked to him on when we talked to the secondary players. We had seen him earlier in camp and Ryan Day said he had a knees procedure and he is going to be out for a couple weeks, but he'll be fine. But we didn't see him and we didn't see him on practice on Friday. We did not see him in the spring game on Saturday. And then Jay Timmons was there and dressed but didn't play today. Jay Timmons has also been battling something and we think those are the probable first and second team star players that, that third slot safety. That's who we think they are. But the result is we saw a ton of it on Friday, we saw a ton of it today. Jermaine Matthews in the slot, Dominic Kelly and Devin Sanchez as the outside corners. It's not what they came out with for the first play with the first team defense. They out actually came out with three linebackers and Jermaine Matthews and Devin Sanchez at corner and Terry Moore and Jalen McLean at safety. But then they very quickly, it was almost like an in and out that it was just like, let's run on the third safety and run off the third linebacker. And when they did that, Dominic Kelly came on, went to the outside corner, Jermaine Matthews comes inside to be the slot star player inside. And my takeaway from that is I just think it's a good enough look that it, it, it has to be part of what they're going to do. Even when they're a little junior and Jay Timmons are healthy. I think it just fits their, I think it fits their personnel too well and it's going to fit some of the matchups they get. And when they play a team that's going to have 11 personnel, three receivers on the field most of the time, and then not try to run the ball out of an 11 personnel set with a 240 pound running back, they're kind of going to spread you out and throw it. This is the look. And so I don't know exactly what that means for Earl Little and Jay Timmons or whatever, but like, I just, I can't get away from how much I like this look for them. And they clearly have three corners who can handle it. I think it has a chance to bring out the Best of Jermaine Matthews. And if it's one of these things that they got to it out of necessity, at least this much this spring, I think it has to remain part. A primary part of what they do in the fall.
- [26:46]
Bill Landis
I think it, it should and it will. I just, I, I do have a difficult time wrapping my mind around the balance of that, the balance of our little like the more traditional kind of nickel safety configuration that we've seen from Ohio State over the last couple years and last year in the map. Patricia. I, I wish like we, we talked about Patricia so early in spring that there's not a chance to like, pick his brain on this. And I don't think we're going to get assistance again until, until the summer and maybe we will. But even when we talked with like Macareri and Tim Walton, that wasn't necessarily front of mind because we didn't know the time that our little was going to go down and like this was going to happen and make this kind of a, kind of a permanent thing, at least for the rest of spring ball. So how they view that, how they view the Earl Little thing is, is interesting to me, but I think it all falls under the umbrella of like, they're going to try to have some different packages for, for their back seven depth with or like secondary depth, probably more, more accurate way to put it, of which they have a lot, it seems like. So I think it's good. It seems like it seems like they're going to be able to play like a few different ways depending on personal. That's like, if you, if you look at their schedule, I think they're probably going to need that. So again, like, you know, you don't want to see guys go down, but it's not dissimilar, I guess from the offensive line. It's like guys get elevated, guys get moved around and you kind of get to work on something and Ohio State getting to work on this look with, with Matthews in the slot, I think was, was beneficial. And it does, it does look good. I thought it looked really good in practice on Friday with. Because Jermaine Matthews is pretty disruptive and he was disruptive in that spot last year when he had to play there too. So, yeah, I like it. Yeah.
- [28:20]
Doug Lamorice
And it's something we talked about several times, I think earlier in spring, which is like in the past couple years they've had guys who have played in a spot but really played two positions out of that spot and they might just not have those individual, the individual versatility which might then require more package versatility. But it's like, well, sometimes Jordan Hancock's a run defender, sometimes he's a coverage guy in 2024. And it's like, we can do either of them. He's fine. Like, he, he's, he's, he's the star. He's the fifth guy, corner, slot, safety, whatever. You just put Jordan Hancock out there most of the time and you're fine. And they just. I think it. I, like, I've all. It was weird. Like, I almost felt. Not sheepish, but, like, I just. Like that. And then you were on this very early of, like, I think dominant Kelly is going to be a part of this corner, like, rotation. You were on that, like, from the jump. And, and, you know, just trying to ask this, like, hey, Mike, Jermaine, play inside some of people, like, well, you know, I don't know. You know, I have a figure. And then it's like, oh, you mean you had an injury and you did it 90% of the spring game, like that. That's what we meant. Are you gonna do that? Because it sure looks good when you do it, and it didn't take you much to get there. But it also wasn't your first choice, this continuation, like, their first choice, something happens and they have to go to their second choice. And it's like, your second choice is better than your first choice. Why wasn't this your first choice?
- [29:45]
Bill Landis
I don't know that it's better than their first choice, and I don't know that they would say that it's better than their first choice because the thing they really, really care about is their ability to disguise, which is to put, like, three safeties at the same level. And then you don't know who's coming down, you don't know who's bumping back, you don't know who's covering who. Like, if Jermaine Matthews is playing nickel, he's probably going to go down on the slot, right? Maybe he can keep working on it and he can play the deep half maybe if he continues to get reps. But I think that is, that is a difference, and it's an important one, which is why I don't think they're ever going to go to, like, our three starting defensive backs or Jermaine Matthews or three starting corners or Jermaine Matthews, Dominic Kelly and Devin Sanchez. I think you'll see it for sure. But that's why Earl Little remains very important to this defense.
- [30:27]
Doug Lamorice
And it was just even, like, the package versatility that we're talking about again, they're just running like down to down. They're running a linebacker off and Kelly on to like get to this look like that boom. The boom. Like, it's just like. It was just a normal. It was like they had 12 starters on defense on Saturday and that. That was just a natural flow and it just might get to that. Do you like old man strength or grown man strength better? As the phrase?
- [30:55]
Bill Landis
Oh, grown man's probably better. Okay.
- [30:58]
Doug Lamorice
It's less offensive. As an old person, I would lean old man strength. So I'll say grown man strength because
- [31:06]
Bill Landis
you want to compare yourself to Kenyatta Jackson. We're the same.
- [31:12]
Doug Lamorice
Because I have a foursome and like, I want to be the fifth. Yeah. So I wrote about it over at Substack and used that phrase. I think I actually used old man strength. And I should go back. I should go edit it. Why don't you edit me when I wrote it? You should have grown man me then instead of old man.
- [31:28]
Bill Landis
They're interchangeable. It's fine.
- [31:31]
Doug Lamorice
Kenyatta Jackson as a fifth year guy. Bo Atkinson as a fifth year guy. Quay Russa as a fourth year guy. Christian Allegro as a fourth year guy.
- [31:42]
Bill Landis
He's a fifth year guy, I think, isn't he fifth?
- [31:45]
Doug Lamorice
I think it was fourth. I looked it up when I was at a red light. I was driving home, I was double
- [31:49]
Bill Landis
check, don't tell the CO.
- [31:58]
Doug Lamorice
And Doug.
- [31:58]
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- [32:11]
Doug Lamorice
Oh, no.
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We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
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- [32:59]
Doug Lamorice
Two fifth year guys, two fourth year guys. Just the way the flow has been. Bo Atkinson and Kenyatta Jackson started at defensive end and Quay Russo kind of like the next guy up there. It doesn't mean that Zion Grady and Episatane aren't important. It won't play. But those are younger guys. These are three defensive ends who have been around and Christian Allegro as that third linebacker who, who probably has the CL the chance to do the closest to what Arvell Reese did last year, which is just be a linebacker much of the time, but then come down and menace on the edge at times, right? And we've talked many times. He's just big and strong and tall and he just looks big out there. But like in a discussion of what Zion Grady, what episod what Riley Pan is a second year guy is going to do when he comes back, those are four old guys setting the edge against the run. Just like maybe getting after the quarterback with just grown manness. It's like I don't know what's in your toolbox, but if you want to go ahead and drive the tackle back into the, into the quarterback's lap eight or 10 times in a game, that'll work too. It's the Mezzador look, right? It's just like what a key Mezzador was for Miami last year as a sixth year guy. And it's like I don't know what's in his toolbox, but he's throwing second and third year tackles all over the place.
- [34:21]
Bill Landis
He's got an AARP card in his toolbox.
- [34:24]
Doug Lamorice
Like I'll tell you, I was not, I was not buying Bo Atkinson, but he drove some people and, and again, it's one of those. We didn't bring it up. Like Carter Lowe as a second year player at right tackle running with the ones didn't have the greatest day. You know why? Because he's got grown men driving him backwards. And I think Carter Lowe is not going to be a starting tackle for Ohio State in the fall. So that's okay. There's time. He's only a second year player. But there's Ohio State has grown men where if you got young tackles, they have grown men to make you pay. So those for your guy. Four guys, right? What was the like it's. It's like that Bucket List movie where a bunch of old guys get together and they have a bucket list. It's the Bucket list gang. Like they're that. I don't know how much longer they're gonna be in college, but if they want to come over, right, put on some new balance and go walk around the pond with me, Maybe go get some breakfast at 6am Bo Kenyatta, Quay Christian. Let's go hang out man. Because they got some grown men and, and like I think that's so. Because guess who the starting tackles were. Ian Moore and Carter Lowe. They're growing. They're not grown, they grown yet. They're kids and they got thrown around by a bunch of old guys on Saturday. It's because Ohio State has some old guys on the defensive line and one of the reasons they didn't win the national championship last year, because a bunch of old guys on the defensive line threw them around. They got some good old guys.
- [35:51]
Bill Landis
They do. I was going to say before you mention it, like if you want, if you want a perfect encapsulation of what grown man strength against a young offensive lineman looks. Just watch Kenyatta Jackson against Carter Lowe. That's a 19 year old, a 19 year old sophomore and a 22 year old fifth year senior. So yeah, that there's, there, there's a difference there. I thought that too. I, I was, it felt like they were kind of taking it easy on them too. I think at a certain point. I think it became evident very quickly. It's like well, the tackles aren't gonna be blocking very well today, especially the right tackle. So I don't know what we, we don't have stats. There are no stats. So I don't know what the total was for the defense in terms of sacks. It could have been 50 with the way that the first team defensive ends were kind of getting after the first team offensive tackles which is like I think we're talking about, talking about more of the substack show. Like there's like Ian Moore was okay. Like there's. How he played is a little more important I think than how Carter low played. But yes, there are definitely the, the, the grown man slash old man strength was, was apparent and that is typically or at least lately anyway what when she games in college football.
- [37:04]
Doug Lamorice
And my last point is with the way Ohio State builds rosters now in recruiting we've talked a lot. We did a big project over on the substack about it. Thinking about guys in your recruiting classes, first round picks and I think defensively like that you have maybe try to get four or five first round picks a year in your recruiting class. Guys you're going to pay for, guys you're going to pay early. Guys who have to hit and be difference makers for you probably in year two and three.
- [37:29]
Bill Landis
Right.
- [37:29]
Doug Lamorice
That's how you get your value out of this. And I Think defensively with guys who you just sort of see in the second team. I think Blaine Bradford at safety who like had a nice close on a throw where Tavian Sinclair was like a scooch late on a pass to Jacquaden Guilford and like Blaine Bradford closed and was like, that's kind of like an old guy. Smart play. I think Jay Timmons, who did not play on Saturday, but we've heard about him this spring as like a nickel potential. Jordan Thomas, who we liked at the beginning of spring, had a little bit of a rough day, but like he's out there as a second team corner. I think that's real.
- [38:02]
Liberty Mutual Bird Companion
He.
- [38:03]
Bill Landis
He had the interception of Tavian on Friday. Okay. Yeah.
- [38:08]
Doug Lamorice
I think Sincere Johnson, who looks like the third team mike linebacker but like had a play where he just like knifed into the backfield on a run stop and was like, that's gonna look good next year. Like that is. You have that lined up. And Kerry Wilder at defensive end as a five star. He got after people a couple times. He and Quay Russell ran into each other in the backfield on one play because they both beat the tackle. Now they were third team tackles, but it's like beat the guy in front of you. And Kerry Wilder's got a little juice. So like you're always looking to the future. I think the future of that defense, five true freshmen. Carrie Wilder at edge, Sincere Johnson at linebacker, Jordan Thomas at corner, Jay Timmons at the star, and Blaine Bradford at safety. I think they have some first round picks there that should get people excited
- [38:51]
Bill Landis
about the future of the D. I agree with you. I. The. The play that jumps out to me the most from Kari Wilder was. I. I don't. Again, I think, I think it might have been against the, the third team offensive line, but Justin Martin was a quarterback and like Justin Martin can move a little bit. And Wilder got it through the line, redirected immediately and sprinted after Martin and sacked him. He looked like a, like a panther stalking his prey or something. Like. But like that's the Ohio's. Like Kaden Carey had great production, incredibly high motor. I think Kenyatta Jackson had really good production last year and he's going to have a nice, nice season. But like they. I'm not trying to compare Cardi Wattle to Chase Young because that's not fair. But they haven't had, I think a defensive lineman or defensive end specifically, who is that, like explosive and athletic who can redirect and get down the line that fast in a while. And that was just one small snapshot, but I was like, whoa, he got there fast.
- [39:44]
Doug Lamorice
Yes, there's some. Whoa. There's some woe guys. There's some woe guys coming on that D. Okay. We wanted to hit the highlights. We don't have the official stats. We're going to keep talking on this feed. Over the course of the off season, we are planning to have an around the shoe with another wrap up of the spring game on Monday with two guests. So, like, don't go anywhere. We're here. Football never stops. It is 365. We are lucky to cover a team that is this interesting, this good, this important with the fan base that cares this much and is this large. And so we want to serve that fan base and do right by this team. And that means we're talking Ohio State football from now until the opener against ball State on September 5th. And then we'll stop and then we'll be done. No, then we'll keep talking even more then. So we'll see you back on this feed. Right now we're going over to Substack. You can go be a Substack subscriber. This is the last day to get 18 off an annual subscription. So if you want to go over and sign up, if you're not a Substack subscriber, we write over there. We do a Wednesday show, we do a Sunday show just for Substack subscribers. And we're going to go over there and go even deeper. And I have a theory of the case about Tavian Sinclair and Julian sand that I will discuss over there. You can go find us billanddugosu.subsack.com but we appreciate you guys being here. We just wanted to hit it and quit it. Is that allowed? I don't know if that's allowed.
- [41:09]
Bill Landis
So it's live and you said it. So.
- [41:13]
Doug Lamorice
So if you're coming over, we'll see you around Substack. If not, we'll see you on Monday for Around the Shoe. We appreciate you guys being here. For now, he's Bill Andis. I'm Doug Les Maurice, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.
- [41:33]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [41:42]
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Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?
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Doug Lamorice
Oh, no.
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We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together.
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We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
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