← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Ohio State spring practice No. 7: Inside LB room depth on Payton Pierce, Riley Pettitjohn and more
00:50:58
Ohio State football held its seventh practice of the spring on Thursday, and linebackers coach James Laurinaitis, tight ends coach Keenan Bailey and several players spoke afterward.
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Practice number seven for Ohio State. Spring football in the books. On this Thursday, we'll talk about that and what we, what we heard from people after that. Tight ends and linebackers spoke with reporters on Thursday. That means linebackers coach Jame Lauritis. That means tight ends coach Keenan Bailey, a couple other guys. We're good talking tight ends and, and linebackers, right? Good, good, good talking that. We're excited. Yeah.
- [00:30]
B
Yeah.
- [00:33]
A
I want to ask you about Christian Allegro.
- [00:37]
B
Yeah, I'm mad about that, by the way.
- [00:39]
A
What do you mean?
- [00:40]
B
I asked Matt Patricia, I asked Matt Patricia when we talked to him, like, hey, Matt, anybody like doing the Arvella Reese thing? He's like, oh, it's far too early to do that. And then Christian Allegro on Thursday was like, I'm doing the Arvell Reese thing.
- [00:50]
A
Yeah, it's very interesting. So, so James Lord. So Christian Allegro, he's the most experienced linebacker in the room. He's the only fourth year guy in the linebacker room. He's a transfer from Wisconsin. He's played over 800 career snaps defensively in college football. Peyton Pierce, who's a junior, has played about 300 career snaps at Ohio State. And then like everybody else that might play at linebacker has played fewer than 100 career snaps. And so it was a reminder like, again, like, they, they want to be veteran of certain things, but also it's like, hey, like, do we want to have a linebacker who's like, been on the field before like this? They, they were in the end, like, was it a 100? Had to go get a guy like Christian Allegro for this room in the off season in your mind?
- [01:41]
B
I think so. And it's not a, it's not a conversation about talent because I think they have, they have plenty of it in the room. If he were not there, if he had just stayed at Wisconsin or whatever. But I think experience matters, especially at that position. They, like young guys, don't play linebacker, at least not at Ohio State. It doesn't happen very often. That's like true freshmen hardly ever play. And I think even sometimes, like true sophomores don't play that much. It's, it's a position to be really good at. It takes a lot of time. So I think you want to provide yourself a little bit of Runway insurance, however you want to categorize it, to allow those younger players to keep flourishing and not put so much pressure on them where they have to be superstars when maybe they're not quite ready to Be that yet. So to go to get a guy who's played a lot. Who's played a lot in the Big Ten, I think it was. Was really important for. For the linebacker room.
- [02:29]
A
How much Christian Allegro film did you watch? Have you watched?
- [02:35]
B
I. I watched his entire Ohio State game from last year, and then I think I watched a little bit of the Alabama game.
- [02:42]
A
Okay, so you're James Laurinaitis, because James Laurinas on Thursday was saying those are the two games he watched when he was considering Christian Allegro as a transfer candidate. He wanted to see how Christian Allegro stacked up against the playoff teams on Wisconsin schedule from last year. And it just was. It was like. It's when again, one of those crazy things, he broke his arm in the first quarter against Ohio State and they slapped the cast on it, and he played the rest of the game, which is. I don't like. Is that. Is that a healthy thing for a person to do? I don't know. Not here to judge either way. I'm certainly. I, you know, I don't think we always have to be in the realm of like, oh, your limb was torn off and you went back in the game. Good for you. It's like, sometimes if your limb is torn off, it's okay to go to the hospital. But he got. He caught James lornitis's eye. There's 114 combined snaps in the Alabama and Ohio State game. James Ornidis also said on Thursday that he noticed Christian Allegro before the game last year. And he said something like, boy, that zero is a big son of a gun. Christian Allegro award, number zero last year. You look at the Ohio State roster this year, Christian Allegro is listed at 6 4, 241. 15 linebackers, some of them walk ons. I think it's 10 scholarship linebackers. 6. 4 is the second tallest behind Braxton Rembert, the true freshman who's like a giraffe, who's 50 pounds lighter than Christian Allegro, and he's the heaviest. So he's like the biggest body in the linebacker room. He's the most experienced guy in the linebacker room by 600 snaps. Right? It is not close. He's the biggest. He's the most experienced. But I just, like, ran through a little bit again today of him against Wisconsin, and I. I think Ohio State against Ohio State against Wisconsin. Christian Allegro, right, against the Buckeyes. And I think it is primarily conversational, like, man, Ohio State has a lot of good players. They just kind of push people around. I don't know that I thought that he, like, popped. I didn't think he looked out of place. I thought that, like, he looked physically like a guy that can be on the field with Ohio State football players. But I am wondering about him in this conversation because we did a show for on our substack show on Wednesday about the depth of each position for Ohio State, but we'd invite you to go find that@billanddugosu.substack.com but it also goes back to the thing we talked about in the offseason. Are a lot of these transfers brought in to fortify things, to allow the young elite talent to really step forward. And I am very interesting. Maybe Christian Allegro fits this perfectly. And I feel like if there are young guys who can pass him, maybe he'll get passed. But if those young guys don't do that, T.J. alford, Riley Pettigohn, Garrett Stover, Sincere Johnson, then Christian Allegro's there to do the job because he's done it. He almost feels to me like the baseline of the linebacker room. I'm not exactly sure how high that baseline is. If he winds up playing 60 snaps a game, I don't want to use the word serviceable because I feel like that almost has, like, a negative connotation to it, but I think it would be fine. But I do wonder about, like, if it's really gonna be, like, splash plays at linebacker. Does it mean that younger guys have stepped up and taken more playing time? Like, what? Just like, where do you. We heard James Laurinaitis talk all about this. He feels like a very important part of the room. But how are you viewing Christian Allegro?
- [06:18]
B
I think he's gonna play a lot, actually. I think, like, he's not, like, hyper productive. If you look at his numbers at Wisconsin, that Ohio State game wasn't like he was filling up the stat sheet. I thought he was in the right place a lot. He's definitely, like, a strong player. I think that's, like, they don't. We've talked about sort of like grown man size and strength, and boy, did Ohio State have it at linebacker last year. They don't have a lot of it in the room this year. Aside from. Aside from Christian Allegro. Like, I really do think that matters, especially when you're talking about, like, trying to set the edge against the run and stuff like that. So I don't. I don't know. I like, certainly guys like Riley Pettigon, TJ Alfred and Sincere Johnson, like, have athletic profiles that tell you their ceiling is probably higher than whatever Christian Allegro maxes out at before he goes off to the NFL after this year, but I don't know how close those guys are to that just yet. So I, my expectation is that Allegro ends up playing like the second most linebacker snaps behind Peyton Pierce. And I think, you know, the idea that they're putting him on the line of scrimmage some right now and doing some of the stuff that Arvell Reese was doing there in some of those five man fronts leads me to believe that they like, they sort of view him as the guy who can, who can do that, probably the best in that room because that's not as much as much as we talked about our fellow as a pass rusher and did they use him enough? Did they not use him enough in that role? That guy was strong as heck, man. He was. He was tossing tackles around and tight ends around when he was playing that position against the run. And I think more than anything that's what they want from that spot. And, and I, I think that's what Christian Allegro probably brings to the table more than anyone else in the room right now or more than anyone who could be like potentially playing that spot right now because Peyton Pierce isn't going to do it.
- [07:57]
A
Let's talk, let's talk, let's talk a little ball here and by talk a little ball, me ask you questions about ball so that I didn't go watch every defensive snap from last year when, when Orville Reese was down on the line of scrimmage, right when he's down on, on the edge in a pass rush position, a pass rush position that he often did not pass rush out of. Sometimes he was set an edge against the run, sometimes he dropped, sometimes he'd fall into the middle of the field and spy then what was happening behind him. Sunny Styles. And then like Caleb Downs was sometimes, sometimes like dropping down almost as a second linebacker or how often was that when, oh, Peyton Pierce is in the game and like they have three linebackers in the game but ARV's kind of roaming around a little bit, right?
- [08:45]
B
Yeah, I don't think. Because that's sort of how they used Arvel the year before, right. Like they would maybe move a linebacker around and then Arvell comes on the field on the three linebacker set. I don't, I think it was more that a guy like Son or a guy like Caleb was going to come down or maybe even Jalen McLean sometimes. I don't, I don't think they were playing with three linebackers on the field a Ton. Although maybe. Maybe I'm wrong, it makes me want to go back and look at it. So I. A mix, probably. But. But, But. But a mix that I say would, like, leans more toward. It's a five. One front. Penny front. So it's five defensive lineman, one linebacker. So I think more often than not, it was usually just like Sonny Styles was there in the middle, and the safety would come down and help him.
- [09:24]
A
Yeah. Because I. I don't know. I might be willing to make a bet with you right now on, like, Riley Pettajohn versus Christian Allegro Snaps this season. Who plays more. You would take Christian Allegro?
- [09:39]
B
I would take him right now. Yeah. And it's hard. Like, Riley Pettigon's out for the spring. I think there's. There's an alternate universe where Rally Pettigan is practicing this spring. And my answer is different, but I'm. I'm willing to be a little more patient with. With Riley because, again, it's hard. It's hard to play linebacker when you're as young as he is. As young and as inexperienced as he is.
- [10:02]
A
I feel like we might have gotten the first. Not negative, but, like, the kind of talk that is not just all praise, that makes me go, oh, they like this guy. Right? The reverse thinking that I can get obsessed with that. James Lornitis was asked about Riley Pettigo, and his point was, it's hard when you're hurt. You've got to stay locked in mentally. I'll throw him random questions.
- [10:26]
B
No.
- [10:27]
A
In the meeting room and make sure that he's understanding the install. That he's staying. Like, it's. It's hard when you're not practicing, you know? And he didn't say. And Riley Pett. John is. Is knocking it out of the park. Every time I ask him a question. The answer was sort of like, I've got to make sure he's locked in while he's hurt. And then he did throw in. He has all the physical tools in the world. So it was like. It was a little bit. To me, it's just a little bit of like, hey, like, five star. Hey, five star. Who flashed when he got on the field a tiny little bit last year against Grambling. We. We all know what might be coming. It's a reminder, like, stay locked in. Stay locked in, because if you do stay locked in, you're gonna be pretty awesome. And so, like, I almost got excited. I was like, oh, he wasn't. He wasn't that effusive about Riley Pettigon. I'm excited about writing Riley Pentagon as a result. I, I don't know. And, but, but if, but here's the thing. I guess if they want that linebacker spot to be able on any snap to come down and get on the edge and be, be the size and also have the skill set to be a threat as a pass rusher, set the edge in the run game, but also drop and cover and do all the things that linebackers do like that the R.L. reese body in the room is Christian Allegro. So if that's almost a requirement of that second linebacker on the field next to the Mike linebacker, then I guess it is Christian Allegro. But if that's like more package oriented, maybe like you're okay with Peyton Pearson, Riley Panajohn sort of standing next to each other on first down as the two linebackers in the middle of the field and you figure other stuff out, then maybe it can be Riley Pettigon. But I'm just curious about sort of like what is the role they want from that sort of outside linebacker spot. We know Peyton Pierce is the mic, he's Sonny Styles. But what do they want that other guy to do down to down? Because if it, if they want that guy to be everything Arvel Reese was, it almost has to be Christian Allegro.
- [12:29]
B
I think. Yeah, I think you're right. I don't know. It's a good question for Matt Patricia, I guess. And I think his answer to be something along, along the lines of like, well, we'll work with what we have because even if, even if we think that's the case now, that it has to be a guy like Christian Allegro, like, like next year. Well, I guess it could be Sincere Johnson, I don't know. But like Jamie Collins was the guy that Matt Patricia like used to compare Arvel Reese, like Jamie Collins, I just looked it up was like 6:3,250, like big dude marvel Reese, Big dude Christian Allegro, Big Dude Riley Pettigon, 6 2, 230. And actually he was listed at 61 last year. So I don't know, did he grow or is. Why is they being generous? I don't know. I'm not like, he's not. I have no concerns about Rally Pettigen. I just don't know if he's a guy who plays that spot. So, so, and I, I think the same, the same thing about, about like TJ Offer. They're not, they're not. They're explosive as I'll get out, but I just like, they're like sheer size and Strength. I don't know if that's necessarily their games, at least not yet. So that's why I kind of think Allegro is going to. Gonna play the most this year. And I. I would say now that Peyton Pierce is the mic and Allegro is the outside linebacker and that Riley Pettigon probably is in the Peyton Pierce role from last year, where he's still going to end up playing like 300 snaps probably. I also think you could package Riley Petta John as a pure pass rusher if you wanted to, which they, like, tried to do in the Purdue game last year.
- [13:54]
A
Speed edge guy.
- [13:55]
B
I think you can build upon that because I don't think it's like two different edge types. Right. Like, and I don't like Christian Allegro is not, like, it's not as fast as Arthur. We're not making that comparison. But he can win on the edge with strength, but he's not gonna. I don't think he's gonna win on the edge with. With bend and speed. And I. And I think like, our Val could kind of do both. And I think you sort of have one or the other in Allegro or. Or Petta John or Alfred, so we'll see what that looks like. But I think, because I. And I. I also think that when Matt Patricia is figuring out how these pieces fit together, he's probably thinking run first.
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A
So.
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B
And that's. That probably is to Allegro's favor as well.
- [14:45]
A
I don't think we can talk about him anymore. It makes me too sad.
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B
Arvo. One year I did see, by the way, I was reading Bruce Feldman's mock draft on the Athletic with, like, Bruce Feldman's mock draft has, like, feedback from anonymous feedback from coaches within it. And then the Arvell Reese piece, they were talking about how on the Bella trick, Belichick tree, that position where you're like, on ball, off ball and move is called the Adjuster. So the Adjuster was back in the defense last year and nobody knew about it. Also, he absolutely was talking to who's watched Jed Fish about. There's a lot of knowledge about Bill Belichick and the Patriots and how good of a spot, how good of a spy. You talk to Jed Fish. It's fine. Yeah. You talk to Jetfish?
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A
Oh, yeah. No, because Arvel Reese threw Demon Williams Jr. In that way a couple times. And Jed Fish, I'm sure, was like, I don't know what to do with that.
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B
Right. Yeah,
- [15:48]
A
we got this five, 10, little, little, like, incredibly athletic quarterback, but who. Who's not any faster Than this linebacker who's 60 pounds heavier than him. What do we do? I don't have a play for that.
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B
Yeah. So there's no play for that.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It's surrender, which is what the Mon Williams did, basically.
- [16:11]
A
I know. We'll get him another day. You don't have to go undefeated to make the playoff. We'll take the L. I am. I'm just really curious because, like, James Ornidis was sort of talking about. He said so one of the things James said was that it's not. And it was interesting because I heard it a million times. Like, when James was playing. You've heard it at Ohio State a million times. Like, who's our best 11? Find the best 11. A guy say that all the time. Coaches say it all the time. Like, we'll find our best 11 guys and then we'll build a defense or an offense around them. We want our best 11 guys on the field. And James said it's not just these are our best 11 anymore. And he's talking about finding roles for guys. So he said we want to find out who we can depend on and then we want to find roles for them. So when we did our big depth show on the substack on Wednesday, we said we think they could go six linebackers deep, potentially. Like our. The idea idea was how many guys could maybe Ohio State feel like they can depend on at a position by September, by October. And we said six at linebacker. And James said, I'd like to go five or six deep or we might go too deep if. If the guys can't prove it. But he said, Matt Patricia is good at finding roles for guys and what they do well. But then I don't think we saw that last year because they had three guys who did everything well. And we've talked about this previously, that they were almost playing different positions. But when you splice that up, I'm super curious in the linebacker room how that gets spliced up. Because, like, we were just saying, well, Christian Allegro is like Arval Reese in this way, but Riley Panajohn might be like Arvel Reese in this way, and Garrett Stover might be like Arvel Reese in this way. Right. And I think Peyton Pierce's Sonny Styles is a. Is a pretty straight line. Not the exact same skill set, but smart guy who's going to call the defense from the mic position and be incredibly reliable. Peyton Pierce probably won't go blow up the combine in two years, but that's a pr. But like, I. I just don't know how that's going to go because I think it might be five linebackers trying to do pieces of what R.L. reese does. But it was interesting to hear James say that, because I didn't think they were overly packaging last year, at least in terms of personnel, but it's because they had such elite, versatile personnel who could do everything.
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B
Yeah, it's. We're entering the, the Pete Werner bullet conversation again, I think. And like, sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't. And I think. I think last year it did. It's like you have, well, what if we did this? What if we did this? What if we did this? And then you have all these ideas and then along the line you figure out, well, we can do all those things and we don't have to sub great.
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A
Right?
- [18:48]
B
And I think that's how. That's more or less where they went. Like, but you saw them. I, I would consider, like, what Devin Sanchez did packaging. I. Maybe some of what Peyton Pierce did packaging, although other times he was just sort of like, subbing for Sonny Styles. I think maybe what you did a little bit with Will Smith was packaging, but, but not, not to the extent maybe that they could, could do this year, specifically with the, with the linebacker position. And I think this sort of, you, you could combine it with the defensive end conversation. Right. Like, I asked Ryan Dave at defensive ends on Tuesday, and he was a little, I don't know, he wasn't effusive in his praise of the position, obviously. Kenyatta Jackson's back. Quay Russo seems to be having a good spring. He lost his black stripe on Thursday. But if they're looking for some pass rushing juice, maybe that's where you can get a Riley Pettajan on the field or a T.J. alfred or perhaps a sincere Johnson if you want to play. If you want to play a freshman where, like, you're not, you're not asking any of those three guys to be a. A box linebacker for 600 snaps on the season unless they're ready for it, which they might be, but if they're not, you can still use them. So I, you can go down these paths rather easily in the spring, and everything's great in theory until the games start coming up. So, like, what? We'll see. But I, I do think there are opportunities to do some of this stuff, and I think Matt Patricia, with his NFL background, probably gives Ohio State as good a chance as any coordinator would have of actually putting those things in place, because, like, we've had a Lot of conversations about this with different coordinators and it never happens. Maybe Patricia could be different.
- [20:19]
A
Do you think, what do you think the chances are of them at times maybe going to more of like a 3, 4 look where like Christian Allegro or Quay Russo is still a linebacker. They're in the linebacker room with James Laurinaitis, but really they're sort of like the edge guy on that side that you're not playing Zion Grady and Kenyatta Jackson and two defensive tackles and Christian Allegro that you still have a front that is Edric Houston, John Walker, Kenyatta Jackson and then like Christian Allegro on the side opposite Kenyatta Jackson standing up. But then also Peyton Pierce and Riley Pettigon are both in the game in the middle of the field as linebackers. And that maybe Allegro does that, maybe Quay Russo does that, maybe there's some. It doesn't mean they come to become defensive ends, but do you think Patricia could mess with the fronts in a way that if they don't feel like they have five defensive ends that they want to get on the field, but they do feel like they might have five linebackers they want to get on the field. Like let's do, let's do that.
- [21:23]
B
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Because there's, there's no, there's no rule that I'm aware of that says like your five man front has to be four defensive linemen and one linebacker like it was last year. So it'll be the first piece of that is figuring out do you have a nose? And between like John Walker and James Smith. I think they probably will be able to figure that out. But. And then you kind of build it out from there. So like, I think it just worked out that Kaden Curry was very good. So like he kind of didn't come off the field. They kind of slid him out and made him sort of a stand up edge. I don't know. And like that's sort of what Quay Rusol is. But I don't, like, I, I could see a world where it's like we like Zion Grady a lot but like if we're pure passing down, he's going to come off the field. Like we got a sub package that doesn't include him. We're gonna, we're gonna put some more, some more speed out there and that's where the linebackers come into play.
- [22:13]
A
Or could you have a look though, even on first down against the team that's going to run the ball where you have two defensive tackles, Kenyatta Jackson, you bring Christian Allegro down And you have Riley Pettigon and Peyton Pierce in the middle of the field. That Allegro is there to help set that edge as a defensive end kind of in that spot. Maybe not even pass rush in that situation, but that off the field to get the extra Zion Grady. Zion Grady.
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B
Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I, I don't know.
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A
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just trying to think about.
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B
We have not seen a whole lot of Riley Petta John fit in the run. So, like, I don't, I don't know what that looks like, or Garrett's good,
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A
or T.J. alford fit in the run. Like, I just, I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued by those four younger linebackers. So Allegro and Pierce are veterans, but T.J. alford, Riley Pettigohn, Garrett Stover, Sincere Johnson, I think one of those guys will figure out how to fit the run by October.
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B
Right?
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A
And it's like, is that, and if that's, like, is that what you. If that's not what Allegro does best? But what if Allegro sets the edge against the run down the line of scrimmage better than Zion Grady then, like, or a Quay Russo can. Or. I don't know. I'm just wondering about the potential variety. The potential variety and that. Or could there just be guys, like, running on and off the field for this defense where it's like, okay, like, and this is what we talked about again, like, when Michigan won the national championship in 2023, they played, like, 17 guys on defense. And then, like, I got all excited because Riley Pettigon, like, played 20 snaps against Purdue, and it was like, well, no, Riley Petron doesn't actually play. Didn't even play 100 snaps last year. Michigan's winning the national championship in 2023, playing, like, 17 different guys, 200 snaps. And I just wonder if, I wonder not that that's better or worse. I think it can help you build depth in the long term, but it also would be out of necessity because you don't have a Sonny Styles and Arbol Reese or Caleb Downs. But I'm just wondering how, how much variety could be in the variety.
- [24:09]
B
Yeah, Michigan, by the way, I know people get pissed off when we do compare. I think Michigan. So sorry, but they had 19 players play at least 200 snaps on defense that year, and they had a 20th guy who was 18 snaps short of meeting that threshold, too. So they were really kind of running guys through there. I, I, I think you could see a version of that for Ohio State. Like, I don't know. I don't. Is there. Who on the defense right now would you say? Is that the level of, like, we can't take that guy off the field? Like, we can. Maybe we can move some, but we, like, that guy has to stay on the field.
- [24:47]
A
All right, let's. Let's do this exercise. I'm not sure it's. My answer is one.
- [24:58]
B
Who's your one?
- [24:59]
A
Give your number first. I'll tell you my one.
- [25:01]
B
Okay. I'm trying to run through. I think. I might say three.
- [25:11]
A
Maybe I'd say two. All right, who's your first one?
- [25:16]
B
Peyton Pierce.
- [25:18]
A
Okay.
- [25:19]
B
He.
- [25:20]
A
He's not one of mine, but I. I don't. I don't dispute it. I don't dispute it because I want to have a Peyton Pierce conversation here.
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B
But.
- [25:27]
A
But if you told me that. That, that Peyton Pierce was going to play 75 of the. The mic snaps and then whoever the next mic is. Whether that. Because I don't. I don't actually know who the next mic is. Is it Garrett Stover? Like, if you. That's how Garrett Stover gets on the field. Like, he takes every fourth series for Peyton Pierce. I'm good with that. Whereas, like, it could be. So, okay, so who's your next guy?
- [25:54]
B
Jaylen McLean.
- [25:55]
A
That's my. That's my number one guy. And then who's your next guy?
- [25:59]
B
I think Earl Little Jr. Might work himself. Interesting. Okay.
- [26:03]
A
I was maybe gonna say Kenyatta, like, how.
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B
I wouldn't say that about any defensive lineman because, like, defensive lineman just sort of, like, have to come off field sometimes.
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A
Yeah, but as you said, like, Kaden Curry, like, almost didn't come off the field last year.
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B
Yeah.
- [26:13]
A
So, like, if Kenyatta has that kind of year or a little. Okay. Because again, that's one of those. And that's not a shot at Jermaine Matthews. It's not a shot at Devin Sanchez. It's not a shot at her a little. Because I again, would argue. I mean, if you get in a situation where you want better coverage skills at nickel, are you saying that means, like, Earl Little drops back to a safety position and maybe you're doing something else on a third down, but you're not taking her a little off the field. Okay.
- [26:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:38]
A
Because you want that. That veteran know how. And it also feels like people are saying he brings it. He brings a little heat to the kitchen, it's gonna hit you. Okay, so this is again why we did a depth show on. On The Substack show on Wednesday, it's just not. They're not gonna have four top 10 picks, three top 10 picks on this defense, but they might have, like, a really interesting collection of 18 guys that. That can. That can make it happen for sure.
- [27:10]
B
And I think. I think James Laurinaitis saying. And I don't know. I don't. I'm trying to think if Matt Patricia might have said something along similar lines. I think. I think James saying, like, it's not really about finding your best 11 anymore is sort of him like, letting us in a little bit on conversations in the defensive staff room of, like, maybe we're going to end up with 15, 16 guys we think should play.
- [27:32]
A
Yeah.
- [27:32]
B
And I think that'd be great for Ohio State. Now, how many plays are there in the game, I guess is another conversation.
- [27:38]
A
But.
- [27:39]
B
Yeah, but in terms of guys, they think, like, I don't. I don't think the number of guys that could put on the field last year, like, they felt really good about putting on the field last year, probably did not stretch quite that far.
- [27:49]
A
No, No, I don't think so.
- [27:51]
B
So they had 16 guys ended up playing 200 snaps. Like, one of them was Bo Atkinson, who just, like, really seemed to fall out of favor. So, like, I wouldn't include him. So they're probably more like 14ish guys. They would say that about the 11 starter.
- [28:10]
A
Like, the 11 starters. Peyton Pierce, Devin Sanchez, who at times it was a roller coaster with Sanchez. I mean, like, by the end of the year, we were like, I'm not sure I'd put Devin Sanchez on the field in the playoffs. And Devin Sanchez was like, oh, there's an injury in the playoff. Let's go. And he played great. But I mean, yeah, he was iffy enough at times as a true freshman where you.
- [28:27]
B
You questioned was like, yeah, it was like, it was Devin Sanchez, Peyton Pierce. And then like your third defensive tackle, which on one week was like, Edric Houston, the other week was Taiwan Malone. And then like, Will Smith was sort of like right there, I think, knocking on the door. He did play over 200 snaps, but I don't. I would say maybe he was a notch below sort of what we're talking. I think he is in that echelon this year going into this year. Maybe it was like a step below it last year.
- [28:52]
A
Yeah. Okay. Can you want to talk about Peyton Pierce a little bit?
- [29:00]
B
Yeah, do.
- [29:03]
A
How much do you think James Laurinaitis sees himself in Peyton Pierce, on a scale of like, one to 100? Like, like 98, like a hundred is you're looking in the mirror, right? 98 is you're looking at Peyton Pierce. It is interesting to hear him talk about Peyton Pierce. And I'll, I'm gonna write this at some point over on the subs deck. I think we talk about this, we've talked about this multiple times with sort of like the first quarterback recruit for a head coach, especially an offensive minded one. Like how important like what Tim Tebow was for Urban Meyer at Florida and then what J.T. barrett was for Urban Meyer at Ohio State. Like it's a, it's sort of a tone setter, it establishes like who you are, who you want to be, how you see your team, how you see yourself as a coach. Like of all the place it, when you're at a great place, like of all the people, like I, it's, it's picking more than it is recruiting, right? It's like who do I choose of all the people out there who want to come play for Ohio State, who do I choose as sort of my first guy that reflects and what I, what I want us to be and sets the standard for what I want us to be. And when James Laurinaitis got here from Notre Dame, he had been recruiting Peyton Pierce at Notre Dame and he said that again, like one of the first things he did when he took a job at Ohio State was call Peyton Pierce. Is it like this is what Peyton Pierce is for James Laurinaitis as a college linebackers coach? Yes, I think so.
- [30:37]
B
Yeah. And it doesn't mean like, you know, they come in all different shapes and sizes and skill sets and all that stuff, but I think it's more, it's like a, there's like a football IQ conversation that maybe is a bit of a non negotiable and like a mentality I think too. And that's, I think that's sort of the blueprint that, that Peyton Pierce is setting here.
- [31:04]
A
So you can't, we don't want to go too far with this stuff, right? That football is hard and Peyton Pierce really like on one hand, I don't know, like on one hand, Peyton Pierce was their third linebacker last year playing with two first round draf picks and played like a real amount of snaps. On the other hand, he like has barely played 300 college snaps like in two years. So I don't think we want to make too many assumptions about what he's already done.
- [31:33]
B
But he did pop Mark Fletcher in the Cotton bowl and knocked that ball out on the Fumble that they recovered.
- [31:42]
A
I want to double back on one conversation real quick before we end. Remind me, but what if, like what. So James or I is three time all American, he started for the first time in 2006 and like won the butt guest or whatever. I mean it's like whatever, this guy's a freak. But as you're thinking about, okay, like losing Sonny Styles. Holy moly. But how, like close. How. What percent of James Laurinaitis do you think Peyton Pierce could be? If, if this is James Laurinaitis like seeing a version of himself. This guy sees the game like I do. This guy has the instincts like and the thing, I mean I covered James as a player obviously, and it was always back then, it's like, whatever, who cares about his 40 time? Who cares about his agility drill? His whole thing is he's so smart that he starts before everybody else starts. Like, what if Peyton Pierce, what if Peyton Pierce is like that? And that's the thing, it's like, well, Sunny was kind of like that too. And then Sonny also ran a 41 when he did it. So it's like, oh my God. But, but like what if that's what we're looking at, like a version of that. I don't want to last. Like I keep saying, I don't want to go too far down the line with this, but I basically think James Laurinaitis sees himself. And by the way, James Lord was a three time first team all American.
- [32:50]
B
No, I, I think there's, there's something to it. I, it's. I don't know exactly who to compare him to. Peyton Pierce, at least like guys that I've covered. It's like you want to say like Tommy Eichenberg, Cody Simon, maybe, but I think, I think there's a little something more to Peyton Pierce than maybe you got from. Oh, Cody Simon was a heck of an athlete. I don't like people realize how athletic Cody Simon was until he could have.
- [33:14]
A
Sounds like a top 100 recruit. Yeah, I, I think Rake, I think Raekwon is not a terrible comparison because like Raekwon was a good athlete, but like Raekwon was kind of like a thumper. Right. And like Raekwon. Raekwon was smart and he had instincts and he had an attitude and like he would light you up sometimes.
- [33:32]
B
Yeah, I mean he was also, he was like a, Wasn't he like the number one linebacker in his class?
- [33:36]
A
Yeah, he was a five star.
- [33:37]
B
So. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:38]
A
I mean, yeah, Luke Fickle, he got here and Luke Fickle like called him five star. First day of practice was like, yeah, don't, don't think you're too good. And then Quan McMillan's like, Can I be a co starter for a national championship team? And they're like, okay, you're good.
- [33:50]
B
Number 22 overall player in the 2014 recruiting class. I, yeah, I don't, it's, it's. I don't know exactly. Sort of like, yeah, what, what kind of box to put Peyton Pearson at the moment. I just think he's really intelligent and that was sort of like you. We were asking guys at the combine about Peyton Pierce and it was, it was sunny Styles, I think you said, was just like he played at the big school level in Texas and was like a freshman starter on varsity. He's just seen a lot of football and he's. Sonny said something like, you don't get too many high school linebackers who are comfortable like fitting counter on day one, but Peyton Pierce was. Because he saw it in high school a bunch and like some of that just comes sort of naturally to him. So it's definitely more like, yeah, football IQ based, I think than it is athletically based. But, but Peyton's also a good athlete. Like he can run well. He's a high school wrestler. He's got a toughness to him. Like there's, there's a lot there. So I, I didn't cover James. So I, I probably am not qualified really to say how close in the player play style could, could Peyton be. But I think all the things people felt about Sonny in terms of just being in the right spot at the right time on almost every single play does apply to Peyton Peters. He's just not going to be 6, 5 and 2:40 while he's doing it.
- [35:14]
A
Yeah. Along lines of covering James Ornideif. Our, our buddy Stefan Kreischnik from cleveland.com is apparently, I guess is working on a story on James Laurinaitis and he said that he was like looking up James Lauritis stories in the cleveland.com system and he came across something that I wrote about James Laurinaitis in 2007 and the lead to it was we have a new blog system. I hope I don't break it. And then I started writing about James Laurinaitis. Remember that time on the Internet? Because I like, I can remember that time where it was like, write your story. That's like for adults, you know, like football is important and here is what happened with the football squad and then do your blog where you actually write about fun, interesting things in a fun, interesting way. And then at some point, somebody realized, what if we did that in the newspaper and the newspapers died? But like, that, I think, like, that's what I was doing back then. It's like, well, I got done with my real work. Let me blog about James Laurinaitis being a good football player. You never took part in those days, did you? Was everything, everything by the time you started your journalism career?
- [36:20]
B
No, like, when I was, like, at the school paper at Penn State. Blog. Like, we were trying to think, what's a blog? Should we do blogs? But then by the time I got, like, I was a professional journalist, the Internet was. Was humming.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, I, like, I. Very, very vividly, like, before I started covering Ohio State, but, like, when I was covered Major League Baseball, and it was like, write your story. And now we have this blog. And I was just sort of like, so this is extra work, but I don't get paid more. Is that right? Just for clearness, like, yes, that is correct. But then, like, go, like, go have fun over here and write, like, interesting tidbits. And then it's like, wait, shouldn't we put this in the paper, too? And so, like, it's funny to think about still in 2007, like, I was differentiating. So I do think, like, I, you know, I think. I think the linebacker room's in pretty good shape. It's kind of what we said on the other show. But, like, I think James Laurinaitis thinks it. I think James Ornitis likes it, too.
- [37:11]
B
Yeah, I think this. This thing, like, very, very quickly, sort of like he brought it together in a hurry, I think, to get it. And it's not like, I don't. I don't know that it was bad. It was. It was getting a little flimsy, I think, like, you know, Bill Davis, Times, and there just wasn't. There wasn't a lot of juice in that room. And then I think, like, Jim Knowles came and kind of took what was there and molded it into something pretty good. But there was another level in terms of, like, talent intake that Ohio State had to get to with that position. And James Larson is like, I'm here and we're doing it. And like, yep. And, yeah, that's a. That's a very solid position group that is set up, I think, really well this year. And it's. It's not hard to look into the future and see how they're going to continue to be very good.
- [37:59]
A
So we're going to be Careful with our tight end discussion because we don't want to scare people away. But Keenan Bailey and some tight ends also spoke on Thursday. I think the primary thing is official officially, so everybody knows it. Not that you doubted it, but Nate Roberts, second year tight end, is a tight end. Is tight end one. And he's not doing fullback stuff anymore.
- [38:19]
B
He is not a fullback anymore. Yeah, he, he was asked a lot about it. I, I think I felt like at times I like expressed frustration not with playing the position, but I think frustration with what playing that position might have done to like the perception of him because I don't think people think he's any good because of how he played as the fullback. As a guy who had never played out of the backfield before. Like, by the way, can you go play fullback? And it's like it was, the results were, were a little hit or miss, but. And a lot of miss, I guess. But I think inline tight end, I think he thinks he's ready for it. That was sort of like the gist of his thing is like I can do this. Which I thought was pretty impressive. And it was like it was a reminder because I think like Ryan Day might have said when they signed Nate Roberts, like this guy's going to be a captain someday. He was just like very sure of himself as he kind of took on questions about what could be in store for him this year because they, they if he's not ready to be tight end one, then I think things can get a little hairy at that position pretty quickly.
- [39:24]
A
Yeah. According to PFF, 80 backfield snaps for Nate Roberts last year, 61 as an inline tight end, 16 in the slot. So it was about half and half in the backfield or something else, but that's still a lot.
- [39:42]
B
But his inline snaps too, if you look at it by week 18 against Grambling and 12, I guess. Was that who they played before Michigan? Was that Rutgers? Oh yeah, 12 again. So like half of his inline snaps were against Grambling and Rutgers and the rest like he didn't play very many.
- [39:58]
A
Yeah, right. Like, and it was one that was really like go time against Michigan. He played 18 snaps in the backfield and wanted inline tight end. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, he played six in the backfield against Indiana, wanted inline tight end. So when it was like actual winning football, didn't play against Miami, they said you're a fullback. I do think, right. I mean like, I think that's fair. But then also like it's, it's like again, it's like, well, it's not. It's not fans fault or the media's fault that to view you as a fullback, it's the fault of the team that made you a fullback. So it was. And it's just a little. So, like, what is this, then? Did this reignite the Bill Landis, let's get a fullback on the roster charge when Keenan Bailey is sort of like, we're not fullbacks, we're tight ends. And it's like, well, if you line up at fullback, you're a fullback.
- [40:52]
B
Yeah.
- [40:52]
A
I don't know what to tell you, but it felt like maybe he doesn't love it. And it's like, well, then maybe they should have a fullback coach. Or we said, could we? Should we. We can have these conversations with Carlos Lachlan. We don't have to have them with you. But I don't know what you call the guy who lines up in front of the tailback and then slams his body into a linebacker in the hole on the goal line. Is that a tight end? I don't know what the word is, but that. We're asking about that. And Keenan Bailey's like, yeah, I guess those are in my room. But he doesn't want them.
- [41:24]
B
I. Nor do I blame him, really. Like. Well, I guess there's two sides of the conversation. It's like, well, we're creating another role for the tight end, which is great for you, your room. But we're like sort of asking a tight end to do a thing that doesn't really come naturally to him. Can we find somebody who. It does come naturally, too. Yeah. I still think they need a fullback. I don't know why they don't have a fullback.
- [41:43]
A
Yeah.
- [41:43]
B
It's one roster spot. Pay him 150 grand, I'm gonna go block 50 times.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah, because they're only, like, the most important snaps of the season. Oh, he only plays when we're trying to score a touchdown. Oh, he does. Oh, for real? That sounds important.
- [41:59]
B
Yeah.
- [42:00]
A
Yeah. What if you got somebody who actually did that job?
- [42:05]
B
Maybe we'll score on the first crack from inside the two. If we have a guy who knows how to play fullback. And it won't take us three tries to do it.
- [42:11]
A
Yeah. Oh, no, no.
- [42:12]
B
Again, it's not Nate Roberts fault because he should have been playing ball back.
- [42:15]
A
No, exactly. Right. So. But. But that is done. But. But we do not know. We. We did not. There was not an answer given definitively correct on our tight ends no longer in charge of that role for Ohio State. Is Ohio State not going to use a fullback that way? That is not really part of the package anymore. Like, maybe there'll be somebody at a different. Like, we just. If it's. So it's not Nate Roberts, but we don't know who it is or if it exists.
- [42:50]
B
Yeah, there was no, like, specificity beyond that. I would be pretty surprised if they don't have someone doing that. Just based off of everything that Arthur Smith did while he was in the NFL. He always had a fullback. Well, I guess maybe the Steelers didn't have one, but they still use, like, tight ends as blocking backs. But like, in Atlanta, they rostered a fullback. In Tennessee, they had a fullback. So I. I think he'd like to have one. Maybe he's my savior. Maybe he's the guy I hope he doesn't leave after this year. He's the guy who's got to bring me a fullback. Him and Zach Boyle together. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, I. I don't. I don't know.
- [43:28]
A
Dumpster nil deal. You come to Ohio State as a fullback, you're on a dumpster.
- [43:32]
B
You're gonna put you in a dumpster.
- [43:33]
A
Like, what are we doing here?
- [43:35]
B
Yeah, what if we can put you on a FedEx envelope and then throw the envelope into the dumpster that has your face?
- [43:41]
A
God, can you imagine?
- [43:43]
B
FedEx fullback. He always delivers.
- [43:46]
A
Oh, my God. They're gonna be guys. You're gonna have like five star. Five star receivers turning themselves into fullback for this nil cash. Because then it becomes so much. It's not tight ends. Like, okay, this is funny, you know? Like, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Speak it manifest.
- [44:09]
B
It's not my. I don't. I don't. I don't wanna. It's. It's Austin Ward's idea. I don't want to steal it. He's. I think he's the one who. Who has first broached, but. Yeah, who's the guy? And maybe it's just the Stover name. I don't know. Who's the. Who's the farmer on the roster? He's the new fullback. But if there's not like, a role, there's not a way for Garrett Stover, who's working his butt off to play 400 snaps at linebacker. Let him go block.
- [44:34]
A
Yeah.
- [44:37]
B
Yeah.
- [44:37]
A
I. I don't. I haven't. I. I love it. Yeah. I'm not. I'm here.
- [44:42]
B
I don't know. You said you watched Garrett play in high school because he, like, He. He gave your local high school the business. Was he playing on offense or just defense?
- [44:54]
A
I don't remember. I don't remember him on offense, but I don't know.
- [44:58]
B
I don't know that he played two ways in high school. I'm trying to find him on the roster. 6, 1 2, 28.
- [45:05]
A
He can do it.
- [45:06]
B
Get that 228 up to, like, 235.
- [45:09]
A
He can do it.
- [45:10]
B
He can do it for the B gap. Yeah.
- [45:11]
A
All right. That's it. You're not. You're asking nothing but fullback questions the rest of the spring. It's like, yeah, thanks for joining us. By the way. Do you think Garrett Stover could be a fullback?
- [45:24]
B
I don't know, because, like, they even. They tried Katie McDonald, like, as a fullback, I think once last year and then a couple times a year before. So I don't know. Can we get. Where's. Where's my guy? 633-60- get after it, big fella.
- [45:42]
A
Let's do it now. Now, the Bill and Doug show search for an Ohio State fullback has just gone off the rails. But, like, it's great. I mean, like, you got to find us until you have the answer.
- [45:56]
B
Yeah.
- [45:56]
A
So. But it was. I mean, it's one of the, like. Like, the people who provided the answer a year ago apparently, like, didn't necessarily love providing the answer. So it's like, okay, well, let's. Let's keep brainstorming about this.
- [46:07]
B
I think it's good, like, because otherwise Nate Roberts went on the plate. So, like, I think it's like, he got on the field as a true freshman tight end, which doesn't happen a whole lot. So whether or not it was the best role for him, I think the experience matters, and he'll be. He'll be better for it. But, yeah, it's not. Coaches talk all the time about, like, we're. Our most important job is to put the guys in the best. Best position to be successful. It's like, well, you didn't do that at full pack last year.
- [46:32]
A
So, Nate, you have done this before, or no. No, Never. Okay, cool. Go do it anyway. But I. But if Nate Roberts. Point is, don't view me as the guy who played fullback who's now going to be a tight end this year. View me as the guy who was the number 203 recruit in the country. In the 24. 7 sports composite, the number 10 tight end in the country was a huge get for Keenan Bailey at Ohio State out of the state of Oklahoma that he's a top 10 national recruit at his position. He's not some guy who they threw in his cannon fodder in front of the tailback last year. So I, I would understand if he feels like. Because we have. That can happen sometimes with questions where. And we'll be honest, neither of us were at the table with Nate Roberts. So like. But you can sometimes you can feel it and it's like it's our job to feel it and maybe back off and give a guy a break because. And it's not about giving him a break. It's about getting the best possible answers. But I don't know how many quite. Did he get a bunch of questions in a row about being a fullback?
- [47:35]
B
No, it was like, okay. It was like two, maybe three.
- [47:38]
A
Okay.
- [47:39]
B
And he did a good job of spinning the answers into like, that was me last year. Here's I'm going to be this year. Okay. And like, like I said, like, I don't. I want to go back through. I was just looking at Luke Farrell. He did not start until his third year. He played he red shirt. It played 106 snaps as the Red Shirt freshman and then started like, I don't know. I don't know. Tight ends, Not a million Played Jeremy Ruckert maybe.
- [48:05]
A
I think Rucker did.
- [48:06]
B
But he was like the number. He wasn't the number one tight end for Ohio State when he started to play more. 2018. Yeah, he played 130 snaps as a freshman and then played 405 as a sophomore. But he was, he was playing with Luke Farrell that year, so it wasn't like he had to be tight one. But that's probably the best example of a second year tight end playing a lot.
- [48:30]
A
Did Keenan Bailey say anything about Dr. Welsing or.
- [48:32]
B
No, he sort of like lumped him. Dr. Welsing and Mason Williams together, like they're old guys. You can tell they've played. There's some upside there. They're like kind of figuring it out, but they can sort of like see the, the reasons why they brought them here have shown up. I think they're just trying to get it to come out a little more consistently.
- [48:51]
A
Okay. Okay. So this was practice seven. Practice eight is going to be on Saturday. It's going to be a scrimmage in front of the student body. It is Student Appreciation Day. Love it when the students get a little love. And then also they don't have technically Media Appreciation Day, but we feel appreciated every day. But they let us come to Student Appreciation Day, which is all the appreciation that we need. So to remind people, Bill, you won't find us here on Saturday, but you will find us talking about the Buckeyes as soon as we can get back in front of our cell phone cameras and in front of our microphones on Saturday after watching practice.
- [49:30]
B
Yes. @billanddugosu.substack.com we will be live. I don't. So that starts at like 10:30. So I would say we'll be live like around 2, 3 in that. That window.
- [49:42]
A
Yeah.
- [49:42]
B
Live video there breaking down everything we saw, taking questions from people. And if you are subscribed over there, you can watch that and participate or watch the replay after it's done. And a reminder that we are also still doing the 18 off an annual subscription through the end of spring ball. So if you've been thinking about it, this Saturday would be a good time to try it.
- [50:05]
A
Great. But whatever you do, thanks for being here. Thanks for consuming the Bill and Doug show here on YouTube, here on your podcast feeds. We will be back. We still got a lot of spring games April 18, so two weeks from this coming Saturday. So we have a lot of practice left. We have a lot of interview sessions left. We still need to talk to cornerbacks, we need to talk to safeties, we need to talk to running backs. Right.
- [50:31]
B
Like, we still got a lot of O line. D line.
- [50:33]
A
Yeah, O line. D line.
- [50:34]
B
She's talked to some players, but not that we've not talked with the position coaches for all those groups. Yeah.
- [50:39]
A
Yeah. So thanks as always, billanddugosu substack. Com Hope to see some of you over there. For now, though, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice and that was the Bill and Doug Show.