Ohio State tight end grades: Is it too many tight ends? When it's just two, how good are they?

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Tight End Grades — Is it Too Many Tight Ends? (Dec 21, 2025)

Episode Overview

This episode of The Bill and Doug Show, hosted by seasoned Ohio State football analysts Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis, goes deep on the Buckeyes’ tight end room in the wake of an unusual season where Ohio State consistently fielded more tight ends than ever before in the Ryan Day era. The duo grades the position group, dissects player usage, discusses scheme trends, and speculates on the future of each major contributor—with plenty of thoughtful tangents and signature banter.

---

Key Topics and Insights

Why So Many Tight Ends? (01:36–06:00)

• Discussion of Personnel Shift: Doug and Bill open with amazement at how the tight end room has ballooned, fundamentally shifting how Ohio State attacks on offense. Bill highlights that this hasn’t been possible in previous years due to limited depth (“All these guys can play… let’s find ways to use that”—Bill Landis, 04:14).
• Scheme Evolution: Ryan Day’s adaptability is cited as a driver—Ohio State had only two returning established receivers, so 12-, 13-, and even 14-personnel packages (two, three, four TEs on the field) became common to maximize available talent.
• NFL Influence: Bill connects the trend to the NFL, noting teams like the Rams using increased 13-personnel successfully, hinting at broader football evolution.

Who Are the Tight Ends? Usage & Snap Counts (02:53–03:50)

| Player | 2025 Snaps | |------------------|------------| | Will Kazmaric | 476 | | Max Claire | 438 | | Bennett Christian| 252 | | Nate Roberts | 160 | | Jelani Thurman | 135 |

“They’ve played five somewhat regularly… Three almost all the time, and two more specialized guys, but they can all play.”—Bill Landis (02:54)

Deep Dive: Nate Roberts, Fullback or TE? (07:43–11:11)

• Hybrid Role or Just a Moment? Doug ponders if Nate Roberts is auditioning for a new hybrid “fullback” role. Bill shuts it down:

  “I think it’s just a snapshot moment in time. This is not what they view him as… He’s a tight end they’re masquerading as a fullback because he’s a true freshman who they wanted to get on the field early.” —Bill Landis (09:09)

• Snap Alignment: Nate lined up in the backfield more than as an inline TE (Backfield: 80 snaps, Inline: 61 snaps).
• Coaching Challenge: Both agree Roberts’ role is more necessity than vision, and the coaching staff shoulders the blame if he's miscast.

The Core Tight Ends: Kazmaric & Claire (11:20–15:02)

• Kazmaric: Praised for consistency as the primary blocking tight end and reliability as a pass-catcher in a pinch. “He does his specific job well” (12:11).
• Claire: Utilized more as a pass-catcher, akin to a receiving TE in 12/13 personnel. Receiving numbers are down since his Purdue days, but that’s attributed to offensive context, not skill.
• Up-and-Down Performances: Whole room tends to rise and fall together—good (The Michigan game) and bad (Indiana, Wisconsin).

Transfer Portal Philosophy (15:02–18:11)

• Is Portal Shopping the Future? Doug asks whether leaning on transfers is sustainable. Bill says:

  “I could see them taking tight ends at a higher frequency than some other positions in the Portal, but I don’t think they want to be relying on the Portal for any one position.” (16:34)

• Tight end, a developmental spot, lends itself to transfers from lower levels who blossom—more than WR or OL.

Tight End Archetypes: Historic and Present (17:35–19:35)

• The ideal setup: One “inline blocker” (think Will Kazmaric), one “stand-up/receiving” TE (Claire). Reminiscent of Luke Farrell and Jeremy Ruckert pairing.

“Ryan Day has said, you don’t want to be in 12 personnel with two similar tight ends… having complementary skillsets is key.” —Bill Landis (18:11)

Usage Trends—Are They Overdoing It? (19:35–22:27)

• Ohio State now has the depth to use two or even more tight ends… and maybe they use it too much.
• Statistical history: Some previous years, the Buckeyes couldn’t consistently play two TEs; now the worry is over-reliance.

The “Best” Grouping? (20:45–21:49)

“Their best personnel grouping is 12 personnel—Kazmaric and Claire with Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith. Makes you bigger to run, and puts the defense in a bind.” —Bill Landis (20:55)

Bench Pieces & Next Year’s Forecast (22:14–25:56)

• Bennett Christian: Disappointing as a blocker, which was his high school specialty. “Not really been a strength of his while playing for Ohio State.” —Bill (22:14)
• Next Year? Bill projects: Claire & sophomore Nate Roberts as the starters, unless Claire heads to the NFL (23:19–23:35).
• Nate Roberts: Coaching staff “loves him,” strong physical tools, potential three-year starter (“Only tight end to ever break through as a true freshman that I can remember… they have really high expectations” —Bill, 25:03).

Jelani Thurman: Star-in-Waiting? (25:56–29:07)

• Big signing, huge expectations, minor goal-line/blocking role in heavy packages.
• “He’s their highest graded [tight end on PFF]… always going to be infatuated with him until there’s reason not to be.” —Bill Landis (27:04)
• Doug’s playoff “bold prediction”: Thurman catches a key touchdown.

Grades & Analytics (30:10–32:27)

• Subscriber Grade: Avg. 75/100 (Doug: 77, Bill: 79).

  “Congrats to the room, congrats to the roster construction. They just got to the point where they love it so much they can’t help themselves.” —Doug Lesmerises (31:28)

• Personnel Usage: 45% 11 personnel, 41% 12, 10% 13, with Ohio State ranking near the top nationally in 13/14 personnel usage ("They are outliers in how much they get into these big, big tight end packages.” —Bill, 32:21).
• Postseason Outlook: Expect slightly less 13/14 personnel as Ryan Day gets more hands-on and scheme is tailored to specific playoff defenses. Anticipate 12 personnel to be most common.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “The art and the artist… you do have to separate them.” —Doug Lesmerises on grading TEs vs coaching usage (02:22)
• Doug Catfishing for OnlyFans: “Is that what OnlyFans is? Special mustache pictures for my ten dollar Substack…” (07:43) [light-hearted banter]
• On why tight ends sometimes all play poorly at once:

  “When one plays poorly, they sort of all play poorly… and I don’t know what that means.” —Bill Landis (12:00)

• On overusing all their depth:

  “It’s just like… they love it so much they can’t help themselves.” —Doug Lesmerises (31:28)

• “I think they’ll be less into those big packages in the postseason… Maybe their most used grouping will be 12 personnel.” —Bill Landis (33:42)

---

Segment Timestamps

• Opening and Tight End Boom: 01:36–06:00
• Player Snap Counts & Usage: 02:53–03:50
• Nate Roberts Breakdown: 07:43–11:11
• Kazmaric & Claire Assessment: 11:20–15:02
• Transfer Philosophy: 15:02–18:11
• TE Pairings & Skillsets: 17:35–19:35
• Roster Construction & Best Grouping: 19:35–21:49
• Depth Chart for 2026: 22:14–25:56
• Jelani Thurman Conundrum: 25:56–29:07
• Grades & Analytics: 30:10–32:27
• Postseason/Big Picture Outlook: 32:27–33:42

---

Tone & Takeaways

Doug and Bill maintain their usual blend of humor, in-depth technical discussion, and a “put the fans first” philosophy. The overall verdict: Ohio State’s tight end room is healthy and talented—possibly even a little too deep for its own good—but questions remain about usage, player development, and whether the team is maximizing its match-up advantages. Expect some course correction in the playoffs and a bright future for big names like Nate Roberts and Jelani Thurman.

For the diehards and the casuals alike, this is your definitive breakdown of the 2025 Ohio State tight end room.

Transcript

[Douglas Maurice]

Limu Emu and Doug.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

Here we have the Limu Emu in.

[Bill Landis]

Its natural habitat, helping people customize their.

[Commercial Announcer 2]

Car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[Douglas Maurice]

Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera.

[Bill Landis]

They see us.

[Douglas Maurice]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary unwritten by.

[Commercial Announcer 2]

Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates.

[Douglas Maurice]

Excludes Massachusetts.

[Commercial Announcer 2]

Want to make a difference in your community, but not sure how? Go to GoFundMe.com right now and start a GoFundMe. Seriously. Your next fundraiser doesn't have to start in a school parking lot or a church basement. You can start a GoFundMe today in just minutes. Fundraise for yourself a friend or family member or an organization. All that matters is that you care about them. GoFundMe is the trusted place to fundraise for what you care about. With no pressure to hit your fundraising goal, but tons of tools to help you reach it, you can confidently start fundraising right now. Whether it's creative, local or critical, your cause matters. And there's a reason why GoFundMe is backed by millions and chosen by fundraisers everywhere. It works and it matters. GoFundMe helps you make a real difference. Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com G O F U N D me dot com this is a commercial message brought to you by GoFundMe.

[Douglas Maurice]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug show. Position groups. Tight ends. Nine of them. How many? What's it called? 19 personnel.

[Bill Landis]

19 personnel. Get them all out there.

[Douglas Maurice]

50 minutes on the tight end discussion because there's more tight ends than there are any other position at Ohio State, apparently. Bill, this is a robust discussion. I assume that we are entering.

[Bill Landis]

I'm. I'm fascinated to see what the scores end up being because I think there's sort of like two separate conversations. There's how good the tight ends have actually been and how Ohio State has chosen to utilize them. And the latter, I think, might inform people's scores in a way that maybe will not be entirely fair to the players themselves. So I'm interested to see where that landed for the people in their scoring.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah, I. I think that's a fair way to look at it. You do have to sort of separate.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, the art and the artist.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah, well said. Well said.

[Bill Landis]

So this is.

[Douglas Maurice]

But usually, yeah, usually, yeah. Okay. We're separating the art and the artist. The art of Tight end play just like, to often. Like, how many guys are we talking about? How many actual people are we going to discuss in this position? Group breakdown?

[Bill Landis]

I guess five.

[Douglas Maurice]

Right. They've.

[Bill Landis]

They've played five somewhat regularly. Like. Like three. Three, like pretty much all the time. And then two. One special or two other guys, like, kind of specialized. But I think it makes sense to discuss all five of them. Okay.

[Douglas Maurice]

Max Claire, Will, Kazmark, Bennett, Christian, Jelani Thurman, and Nate Roberts, who we did not discuss in the running back discussion, who, although he more often than not sign lines up at full, still consider a tight end. And Nate Roberts is part of the tight end discussion?

[Bill Landis]

Yes, very much. Tight end, yeah.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. Do you have the snap counts for those five guys?

[Bill Landis]

I do, yeah. Cast Marek has the most at 476. Claire is right behind him at 438. Bennett Christian has played 252, Nate Roberts has played 160, and Jelani Thurman has played 135.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. Do you have an idea of why this has become a thing this season that we have never been Knee Deep in 13 and 14 personnel discussions, really, ever before in the Ryan Day era. And now it has become one of the more frequent topics that we have discussed and that fans have discussed.

[Bill Landis]

Well, they've never really had this. This many who can play. Because I would say that all these guys can play, right? Like. Like, I think I know Nate Roberts is a freshman, but I. I think you can look at that room and like, get excited about the fact that we have five tight ends that can play. Let's find ways to use that. Because some years, like, they had two.

[Douglas Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

When they had Luke Farrell and Jeremy Ruckert, and some years they kind of had one. Yeah. Like, so I understand looking at the room as it was, was constructed coming into the season and wanting to utilize it a little differently. Plus, and you only had like, two established receivers coming back. So you can say, talk yourself into playing 12 personnel more, and then that's a gateway drug to 13 and 14, I guess. I don't like it's. You see it happening in the NFL. I, I even, even. I noticed a lot of discussion this week about, like, how the rams are utilizing 13 personnel. I think they're playing it more than anybody in the league and doing it really effectively because they're able to be explosive and dangerous throwing it out of those formations because they have like, Terence Ferguson, who's basically a receiver. And I think, like, for Ohio State's purposes, that's kind of Max Claire. The thing that's puzzling to me is that is Ohio State plays a lot of 12, a decent amount of 13 and some 14. But like, Max Claire is not always out there. And it seems like, like he, he's the guy that kind of makes it different. And I guess you could say the same, same thing about Jelani Thurman, although they just don't really use him that way. So there's like the idea and the execution. I understand the idea. I think the execution behind it. And, and I mean that mostly from a coaching staff deployment of talent perspective has been a little lacking. Yeah.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. All right. Before we dive in, just a couple things. One is like, subscribe, tell a friend about the Bill and Doug Show. If you're listening on a podcast and you want to drop a review or any comments like that or whatever, like, we just love it all. We appreciate it all good, bad, whatever you think. We want to know what you're thinking. Feel free. If you're watching on YouTube you want to comment something. We love to hear the feedback. Thank you for being here and we appreciate it. Tell a friend, like, spread the word about the Bill and Doug show. 2. Go see your [e-mail] like it's, we're getting it. Like, it's here. Like, you know, holidays are here, Christmas is practically here. So I don't know what the shipping deal is, but like you, Roback is a place to visit year round, to shop for attire, to shop for hoodies and polos and quarter zips. R h o b k.com bad 20 is the code. B a d 20. You get 20 off your first order. And the last thing is I shaved off my beard. If you would like to see the in between step. We saved the in between step. It was on our Wednesday show for Substack subscribers. When you sign up and become a substack subscriber of Bill and doug@billanddugosu substack.com you get to see what I look like just with the mustache. But now it's gone. But like, I was gonna say, like, mustaches and beards are never gone. They're just on vacation.

[Commercial Announcer 3]

Right.

[Douglas Maurice]

Because they can always come back. Your next mustache is right around the corner. So, you know, this is where I am now. Feels good to be clean and. And ready for a playoff run. But if you want me to see me looking kind of like a creepy weirdo in a mustache, you can go pay 10 bucks a month. Is that only fans? Is that what only fans is?

[Bill Landis]

That is approaching that territory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Douglas Maurice]

I got some special mustache pictures for my ten dollar substack this week. All right. Can I do something weird besides have a mustache for one show? Can we start with Nate Roberts?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Douglas Maurice]

Because I remain intrigued by maybe what they are trying to have Nate Roberts become. And when we were previewing the Ohio State Michigan game and Max Bredesen where he was hurt, was he going to play or not? How important Max Bredesen is to that Michigan offense. And it's not only Max Predison, we've seen it before, but Michigan certainly right in this, this era of this style of offense has used sort of that tight end, fullback hybrid who can line up a tight end can line up and block for a running back, can be a true lead blocker, but also you can then throw them the ball and do those kind of things. And, and I'm just, I'm. I'm wondering if the future of Nate Roberts is just a traditional tight end and this is just what they had to do now or if they really want him to become something a little different. That, that's not what Max Claire is. That's not what Will Kazmarick is. That's not what Cade Stover was. That's not what Luke Farrell and, and Jeremy Ruckert and any guys like that were. They were never lined up in the backfield and used as a weapon like that. Are they trying something here or is this just a snake snapshot out of a moment in time? They didn't kind of have a walk on fullback, so they made their freshman tight end do that job.

[Bill Landis]

I think it's just a snapshot moment in time. This is, this is not what they view him as. I, I think he could be their starting in line tight end next year. Okay. Because Wilcos mark has to go, so. No, he's not, he's not a running back. I don't believe he's ever been a running back. He's not built like a fullback. He's a tight end that they're masquerading as a fullback because he's a true freshman who they wanted to get on the field early.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. Oh, well.

[Bill Landis]

And it's not his fault.

[Douglas Maurice]

No, no, no. Do, do you know, do you have the numbers on how, how often he's lined up as a tight end versus how often he's lined up in the backfield? Because like the one thing about Nate Roberts is we're talking about him here as a tight end. I don't even remember how often he's lined up as an actual tight end.

[Bill Landis]

He really is a fullback. He has been in the backfield 80 times and an inline tight end 61 times.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

In the slot 16 times. So he's been in the backfield more than he's been anywhere else.

[Douglas Maurice]

And. And I would imagine most of those tight end snaps are probably when they're down to the second and third team offense and blowouts. And he's out there as. Okay. I'm also like the backup to Will Kazmark or I'm the backup to Max Claire. Right. They are. They don't really use him that way when the games mattering.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Of his 61 in line snaps, 18 of them came against Grambling.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

Looks like he played 12 against Rutgers, so most of them in those two games.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah. Okay. Anything else about Nate Roberts?

[Bill Landis]

He played 18 backfield snaps against Michigan. That's not. That's not always fullback because you can be like whatever, offset tight end, whatever kind of thing. But. No, my only thing on Nate Roberts is what I've said about him before. Like, I. I think he can and will be a pretty solid tight end here. They're just asking him to do something he's not particularly good at right now. And that again, that is not his fault. That is on the coaching stuff. Yeah.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. All right. I'll let you do the rest of the tight ends in any order you want because you did all the work on it. I just was really trying to create a new position for Ohio State. And you shot it down, which is right.

[Bill Landis]

No, I mean, I would love to see them go get a fullback or like a. Whatever, a traditional blocking h back kind of guy, which is sort of like what Max Bredesen is at Michigan. But they don't. They don't have that on the roster right now. So. Yeah, we'll see if they choose to add one. I think Wilkas Marik's been good. Like, I think he's been exactly what they want him to be, which is the primary inline blocking tight end. And more often than not, he's done that job really well. It is interesting to me. I do feel like there have been some bad tight end games this year. And it does seem to me like when one plays poorly, they sort of all play poorly. Oh, so that's like the. I'm trying to think the Indiana game was a bad tight end game. Maybe it was. The Wisconsin game might have been an especially bad tight end game. But there's also been some, like, really good tight end games. Like, I think The Michigan game was a good tight end game.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

So they're, they've like as a group have been a little up and down, but like they tend to do so together, which I don't, I don't know what that means and maybe that's not entirely accurate, just sort of how it feels. But I do think, I do think Kaiser's been fairly consistent. I think he does his, his specific job well. I also think if they wanted to involve him more as a pass catcher, they probably could. I think he's shown himself to be reliable in those positions. When they've asked him to do that, it's just, just like not, I guess it's not the thing he does best. It's not really what they brought him here for, but he can, he can do something kind of in the open field in a pinch, I think. So I would, I would give him like pretty high marks for, for the season. And honestly, probably the same for Max Claire. His receiving production is down from what it was at Purdue, but it was always going to be because he's on a team with Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate. But I think he has provided a little bit of a punch as the, as the third receiving option. Probably could provide more if the ball go, if the ball were to go his way more. And I think he is simultaneously improved as a blocker while also like over the course of the season I think they've gotten smarter about how to use him as a blocker. So I would give him, I would think both those, those two guys are doing their jobs pretty well and I think are probably like propping up the rest of the position group. Frankly.

[Commercial Announcer 4]

Some things in life are just made for each other. Peanut butter and jelly, macaroni and cheese. Modelo and college football College football season is Modelo season and the season has officially kicked off. The Modelo recruiter is back in action looking to reward full time fans who give their all for their team and their school week in and week out. If you're listening to this, you've been recruited. So lace em up and get out there and don't forget to make time for a well deserved ice cold reward because college football wouldn't be the same without you. So grab yourself a Modelo and enjoy the official beer. Sponsor of the College Football Playoff Modelo.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

At Boar's Head, we make game day entertaining, elevated and effortless. Whether you order catering platters ahead from your local deli or create your own spread with premium deli meats and cheeses, you're sure to impress your guests with the very best. Fan favorites like oven gold turkey paired with our classic Vermont cheese cheddar are sure to score big game winning flavor in every bite. Boris Head committed to craft since 1905.

[Douglas Maurice]

So both those guys are talking about our transfers. Max Claire's is his second year at Ohio State coming from Ohio?

[Bill Landis]

No.

[Douglas Maurice]

Excuse me, Will Kazmark his second year at Ohio State coming from Ohio. Max Claire's first year coming from Purdue. Is it okay if Ohio State lives in the Portal looking for tight ends or is there something that they got to get or they are getting figured out here that like that's not where they're going to be because now they have Nate Roberts and Bennett Christian and they'll, they'll Nick Louder coming in like they're good to go.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I don't, I don't think they want, want to be that necessarily. Like, like Nate Roberts is a pretty big git right in that recruiting class. 2020. They took some decent sized swings in 2026, ended up losing what's his name, Corbin Fordham to Florida State and then got Nate Louder late. That's, that's. Nate Louder is just like a local guy. That's not a, that's kind of like a layoff recruitment for Ohio State. But then they're, you look at 2027, they're taking some pretty big swings there too. So I think tight ends at like a, a tricky position where like maybe, maybe the plan should be like let's try to get like one high school guy who he thinks a stud and then, and then be open minded to take in a transfer tube just because like if you can get an older guy who's kind of been through it, that can help you. You don't have to wait for that whatever two and a half year process to get the dividend down the line just because it is such a developmental position. So I, I could see them taking tight ends maybe at a higher frequency than some other positions in the Portal, but I don't think they want to be relying on the port on the Portal for any one position.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think that makes sense. But also like, you know, I don't know, do you think maybe you have a better chance of going to find like a Mac tight end who can help Ohio State than you would finding maybe guys at other positions? That, that just is maybe a little bit of a developmental spot. And if it's a guy who maybe came in and was slightly lower rated and didn't have an Ohio State offroad of high school, but after like two, two or three seasons of, of putting on some weight and playing Mac balls like, oh yeah, no, that guy can play at Ohio State.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And I think the position sort of lends itself to that too because you can get like, I don't know, guys who go to the G6 level thinking they might be a receiver who grow into a tight end or an offensive lineman who doesn't quite develop that way who ends up like staying a tight end. Like, you can arrive at this position from a few different places in, in a way that I think is, is unlike most other positions in football. So I, I think that probably lends itself to there being sort of more like diamonds in the rough at the lower level that you could find if you're looking for them.

[Douglas Maurice]

And I feel like we end up referencing this like a gazillion times. And I'm not sure why, but again, Luke Farrell and Jeremy Rucker, that pairing, when you had sort of an inline blocking guy and more of a stand up slot receiving guy, and you see Will Kazmarick and Max Claire kind of filling roles like that this year, is that how they're just always going to think about this? That really there's one starting tight end spot, but it's actually kind of two different. And they want two different kind of skill sets. And the inline guy who can block and be well rounded is, is probably the starter, but the guy who can stand up and be a little bit more of a slot receiver actually is probably going to get the ball in his hands more.

[Bill Landis]

I think so. Yeah. I mean, that's how you to repeat something that Ryan Day has said. Like you don't want, you don't want to be like playing in 12 personnel with like two similar tight ends. Right. You want your tight ends to be balanced and be able to do a mix of everything reasonably well. But if one specializes more in inline blocking and one specializes more in being like a route runner receiver after the catch kind of guy, that that's, I would assume that's where they want to be. And I think, yeah, probably between the Rucker and Pharaoh years and probably this year, they probably had a little too much like route running and maybe not quite enough blocking.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. But then there were also a couple years, I don't know what didn't it feel like for a little bit of a stretch there, like they couldn't get into 12. They didn't really have two guys to trust.

[Bill Landis]

Was that maybe like, yeah, over Kate Stover was the number one tight end in 22 and 23, but I don't think they were getting into 12 all that much. Yeah, those years they were also. They were deeper at receiver probably, but.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah, but. But they want. Ryan Day wants the ability to play two tight ends as a. As a form of attacking a defense. He wants that ability. And as much as it's been like, oh my gosh, this tight ends. There's so many tight ends on the field. They have that this year. They can use that as a strength to the point that maybe they've overused it.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. I'm just looking back through. So 20, 21, which was Rucker was back, but Farrell was gone in 21 record played 714 snaps and Kate Stover played 223. So that's a pretty big gap. 22. Stover played 709. Mitch Rossi played 285. That was like a kind of a backfield role. And G. Scott played 141. Yeah. Not a lot of 12 going on there. And then in 23, Stover played 615 and G played 353. So they were, I think, getting a little bit more into 12.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

23. Last year, G played 548. Kazmaric only played 298, but he got hurt and missed like half the season.

[Douglas Maurice]

All right.

[Bill Landis]

Okay. So I don't know. I think. I think they probably would have played a decent amount of 12 personnel last year because G. Scott was kind of like that move around tight end. And Casmere could have been the blocker, but it just turned out that like G. Scott, I think had to be like their 11 personnel tight end for longer than they probably would have preferred.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah. And us. And I can't remember what show you said it on, but you think their best personnel grouping is 12 personnel is when they have Kazmaric and Claire out there with only Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith.

[Bill Landis]

I think so because it gives you. It makes you bigger to run the ball. And then I really. I think it puts the defense in a bind because they can choose to match their personnel. Right. Take the nickel off the field, put a linebacker on the field, but then you have one fewer defensive back to deal with Carnell and Jeremiah or you don't match personnel, leave that nickel on the field and like that guy who's small might have to cover look or Max Claire or then you can run at them.

[Douglas Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

So I think that's. That's the mix that Ohio State would prefer. And it is kind of like contingent on having a tight end like Claire to do it. But I, I think, yeah, that's. I mean that's what they opened the Big Ten championship game with those four guys and Bo Jackson. Just that as we discussed on our. I think our Monday sound off show, the grouping of Smith Tate cast. Merrick, Claire and Jackson played together eight times.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

And then the. That foursome of Smith, Tate, cas, Marek and Claire, like regardless of who the running back was, only played together 12 times in that game.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. Okay. So. So the room is actually. So then the room, like the room is in pretty good shape. It sounds like. It's just like you said, it's more about. Are they almost. They feel they're in such good shape? Are they overusing it? But Kazmaric and Claire as the front line guys are kind of what. They're what Ohio State wants.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And I think. And I think Jelani Thurman has been good in like a very like sort of streamlined role. The only one I would say that like really hasn't played well has been a Christian. I think like he's. And part of that for me could be the fact that I had like really high expectations for him as a blocker really since he, since he got here because he, he was a little bit different coming out of high school in that he was primarily a blocking tight end in high school. A lot of the guys at Ohio State brings in at a high school are just like their team's best receiver who are projected to play tight end when they get to college. That's what Jelani Thurman was, but Christian wasn't that. Christian played like in a run heavy offense and blocked a lot. But I would say that like, that that's not really been a strength of his while playing for Ohio State. So that. That's. He. That's like the only spot in the room that I would say is like kind of a. I don't know, not. Not matching expectations, I guess.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah. Okay. What's the. What do you think? Who are the starting tight ends next year? Would you guess?

[Bill Landis]

I think Claire is going to come back. So I would say the starting tight ends are sophomore Nate Roberts and Max Claire.

[Douglas Maurice]

And how do you think you'll feel about that?

[Bill Landis]

I think okay. Yeah. You know, another year for Nate Roberts to get stronger will help because he's gonna have to be that. That in line blocking tight end. I guess I could see them adding a transfer. I think I'd just be surprised if Claire leaves. They almost have to. But if he's, if he decides to not go to the NFL, I think maybe they won't add a transfer. So then the room couldn't, could in theory just be the four. The remaining four guys who play the most. Claire, Christian Roberts, Thurman and maybe one of the younger guys in the room, whether that's Max LeBlanc or Brody Lennon, like stepping up into like that fifth role. Should Ohio State feel like it needs to go that D. I don't, I don't think that we plan a bunch of 14 personnel next year. So I don't, I don't, I don't have it on my radar just about for the added transfer unless Claire goes to the NFL.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay. And again just like if people for Nate Roberts 247 sports composite and the class of 2025, number 203 national player, number 10 tight end from the state of Oklahoma. And as you, I mean you already said this Bill, he was a big get and so like the ide that I mean we, we certainly could be in a spot where you look up in a couple years and Nate Roberts has been a three year starter for Ohio State that he had a very specific role as a freshman and then was their starting tight end when he was a sophomore, junior and senior. Right.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And he's. I'm just looking at. So K. Merrick 66258 on Ohio State's roster, Roberts is 65240. Like that's good size for a freshman tight end I would imagine like next. By the time camp rolls around next year Nate Roberts might be more like 250. Okay. He's a pretty well put together kid and like they, whatever people think of, of like using this as, as a guy like the coaching staff loves them. Like it was evident from the moment he showed up on campus like they think this is a real dude who like on the field can have an impact. But I also think like has some leadership qualities to him too and can be like a bit of a tone setter for the program. That's why he's been kind of the only tight end to ever break through as a true freshman that I can remember covering the team. So they have really high expectations for him and, and I think that'll probably start next fall.

[Douglas Maurice]

I don't think we're going to do this show but if we were, if we were doing outrageous predictions for Ohio State in the playoff, one of mine would be Jelani Thurman catches a touchdown and Jelani Thurman has one touchdown this year against Grambling, they were throwing him a pass on fourth and one against Michigan before they had a false start and that play got wiped out. But Jelani Thurman, man, like where we were when he was a true freshman, right? That was right when they were coming off playing Georgia in the semi final and Georgia had Brock Bowers and what was the guy's name?

[Bill Landis]

Darnell Washington.

[Douglas Maurice]

Darnell Washington. Right. I was thinking Amari Washington. That's the Oregon defensive tackle Darnell Washington. It was just like, oh man. Like you could see what they were doing with. Darnell Washington is like a big, physical guy who could catch. And like Jelani Thurman came in here, it's like, holy moly. And just like, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I'm not going to pretend to know, but he, he has a minor role on this team. But man, I, I thought that guy was going to be a guy who was going to pop in a big way and like, it just hasn't happened yet.

[Bill Landis]

I, I really don't know why he doesn't play more and I don't really know that you get an honest answer, but I like again, pff. Grades. Just a guide. He's their highest rated. He's their highest graded guy on 135 snaps. And I think like prior to this year they've definitely turned to him as a receiver at times when it's not looked great. Like last year he was targeted nine times and only had four catches. This year he's been targeted eight times and has seven catches and a touchdown. So I don't know. I'm always going to be sort of infatuated with him until there's reason not to be. But yeah, I don't. I could definitely see him having a larger role next year too. But I've also thought of that about him the last two years. Yeah, it hasn't really materialized. Like he play. He plays some, but he's very much the fifth guy in the room.

[Commercial Announcer 5]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news. These days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified Cloud practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

The clock's running out On December deal drops at Lowe's. But there's still time to wrap up something they'll love. Shop great gifts under $50 like the Dewalt Elite Series 100 piece bit set. Plus if you order by 2pm you can get same day delivery by 8pm shop December deal drops while you can Lowe's we help you save same day delivery on eligible in stock items subject to availability. Fees vary. Details@lowe's.com SameDay Delivery.

[Douglas Maurice]

And I thought maybe it's like, okay, well if they just think of him as a pass catching tight end or whatever, but then he's in on the goal line package, they have him in as a blocking tight end. When they go to this big heavy personnel like as you said, when they're in 14 and they have four tight ends on the field, they have Nate Roberts in the backfield, they usually have Claire off the field and they have Kazmaric, Bennett Christian and Jelani Thurman are the guys in there to block and road grade. And there was like maybe a game or two, I think, where maybe Thurman wasn't in there or they were putting in Justin Terry as like an extra, as an offensive lineman playing an extra tight end spot. But then they got back to Jelani in that role. So if it was like, okay, well, like Jelani's not blocking to the level where they feel like a tight end needs to, to be on the field, I don't think he'd be in there in the goal line package. So I don't know. But he is, so who knows? Best of luck to Jelani Thurman however it shakes out. Grades. We do position grades. We ask our sub stack subscribers to rate every position group from 1 to 100. Do you want to guess what the average was for this group?

[Bill Landis]

66, 75. Okay, good. I was thinking it should be higher. Yeah. Okay.

[Douglas Maurice]

They did separate the art from the artist, right? Because they, when we did that show and one of the main shows we do for Substack subscribers is like send in your questions and comments and we break stuff down after a game and Bill gets in the film machine and does all this stuff. And that was, you know, we're talking about like, why are they using 13 and 14 personnel so much? And you, I think, were frustrated in your analysis and people, people were like, holy moly. Once you offer that analysis. And I think there was a lot of frustration from the fans, but they're not holding against these guys. So you, your 66 is based on like tight ends. I Don't want to talk about tight ends.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, yeah. So. But I'm glad they weren't. I'm. I'm at a 79, so, like, I'm kind of with them.

[Douglas Maurice]

Oh, this makes the averaging easy. I'm at a 77, so. All right, so the average is 77. So better than that three year run and thank you for looking that up. But that three year run where it was like, well, they can't do the thing. They want to do something. They want to play 12 and they can't. That wasn't great. Like, we literally don't have the roster at the point that we want it to be or need it to be to. To deploy our offense, how we ideally would want to do it. And that's solved. So congrats to the room, congrats to the roster construction. It's just like it now. The point they got to the point where they love it so much they can't help themselves.

[Bill Landis]

Just got a little too excited. Yeah. And I don't, I don't think they're going to do that in the postseason. I really, I truly don't. They'll play 12 for sure. I'm not saying you'll see the end of 13 personnel. I did, I looked this up. I'm gonna piece it like slightly off, but I think these, these percentages are roughly correct. 45, 11 personnel with one tight end. 41, 12 personnel with two tight ends. 10, 13 personnel with three tight ends. They actually play 13 personnel about as much as anybody in the country, really. They have, they have, they have the second. Is this right? No, sorry. And 14 personnel. They have the second most rushing attempts in the country. I'm not able to look at it like, holistically, but I just looked at like how many times are you running it out of certain personnel packages? So they have the second most runs out of 14 personnel. And they have the fourth most runs out of 13 personnel.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

They're. They are outliers in how much they get into these big, big tight end packages.

[Douglas Maurice]

But you think, you've discussed this. I think that our belief, especially with Brian Hartline taking head coaching job, that. But we thought it anyway that Ryan Day would just have his hands more directly on the play calling and the game planning in the postseason. You think that's part of the reason they'll get a little bit out of so much 13 and 14 personnel. But also the way Ryan Day talked about it, they thought like they had a matchup thing against Indiana. Right. And didn't really it didn't really work. But that was not just like an idea. It was maybe a specific kind of matchup thing that maybe won't exist in the playoff.

[Bill Landis]

Yes, I think that is right. And I'm trying to think. They scored one red zone touchdown right, in each of the last two games, one against Indiana, one against Michigan. Is that right?

[Douglas Maurice]

Sounds right.

[Bill Landis]

I think that's right. The one against Michigan, they were in 11, I believe. And the one against Indiana, they were in 12.

[Douglas Maurice]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

They were both. They were both low red zone throws.

[Douglas Maurice]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

So, okay, yeah, I think. I'm not saying they're gonna scrap 13 entirely because I just don't want to get yelled at if they come out in 13 at any point against the. Whoever they play in the cotton ball. But I think they will be. Honestly, I fight the guess. Maybe their most used personnel grouping in the playoff is 12 personnel leave. My guess.

[Douglas Maurice]

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[Commercial Announcer 3]

All right.

[Douglas Maurice]

We appreciate you guys letting us hang and, and talk ball. We're almost done with these position group breakdowns. We obviously recorded these ahead a little bit because we had some stuff going on this weekend, but, you know, nothing changed. But has, you know, we're. We're in the thick of. Of the College Football Playoff right now. The plan is that we will be speaking with some Ohio State players and coaches starting on Monday. So we're excited for that. Both Bill and I will be in Dallas for the Cotton Bowl. We're excited for that. We'll be here through the entire playoff run. So if you want to come hang with us on substack. Billandougosu.substack.com if you just want to stay here on your podcast feed, on your YouTube feed and hang out here, we're just grateful that you're giving us a chance to. To talk some ball and that we get to follow the Ohio State Buckeyes as they try to become the first repeat champs in Ohio State history. So for now, he's Bill Landis, I'm Douglas Maurice, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

The who's down and who Newville were making their list, but some didn't know. Walmart has the best brands for their gifts.

[Bill Landis]

What about toys? Do they have brands kids have been wanting all year?

[Douglas Maurice]

Yep.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

Barbie, Tonys and Lego gifts that will.

[Commercial Announcer 5]

Make them all cheer.

[Bill Landis]

Do you mean they have all the brands I adore?

[Commercial Announcer 5]

They have Nintendo, Nespresso, Apple and more.

[Douglas Maurice]

What about.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

So the who answered questions from friends till they were blue? Each one listened and shouted from Walmart. Who knew shop gifts from top brands for everyone on your list in the Walmart app.

[Commercial Announcer 3]

Just in thousands of winter arrivals at your Nordstrom rack store. Save up to 70% on coats, slippers, and cashmere from Kate Spade New York, Vince Ugg, Levi's, and more.

[Douglas Maurice]

Check out these boots. They've got the best gifts.

[Commercial Announcer 5]

My holiday shopping hack Join the Nordic.

[Commercial Announcer 3]

Get an extra 5% off every rack purchase with your Nordstrom credit card. Plus, buy it online and pick it up in store the same day for free. Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.