Ohio State vs. Indiana Picks and Big Game Breakdown for the Big Ten Championship Game

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State vs. Indiana Picks and Big Game Breakdown for the Big Ten Championship Game

Podcast: The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Hosts: Douglas Lesmerises and Bill Landis
Date: December 4, 2025
Episode Theme: In-depth breakdown and picks for the Big Ten Championship Game—Ohio State (OSU) vs. Indiana, a rare 1 vs. 2 showdown between two undefeated teams, along with a discussion of historical context, key matchups, Heisman implications, and some fun off-topic moments.

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Episode Overview

Doug and Bill deliver a comprehensive, stats-rich, and lighthearted preview of the Big Ten title game between Ohio State and Indiana, focusing on what makes this matchup historically special: it's only the 64th 1 vs. 2 game in college football history and features the defending national champions. The hosts dig into team histories, key stats, positional matchups, strategic approaches, and make their picks. They also touch on the Heisman race, college football playoff scenarios, and sprinkle in personality-driven tangents and humor.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Magnitude of the Matchup

[01:06-06:50]

• Only the 64th 1 vs. 2 matchup in college football history, and the 8th for Ohio State.
• First time two Big Ten teams meet as undefeated 1 vs. 2 in a conference championship.
• Ohio State has a 5-2 all-time record in previous 1 vs. 2 games.
• Historical rundown of previous OSU 1 vs. 2 games, including wins/losses vs. Miami (2002), Texas, Michigan (2006), Florida and LSU (2006-07), Texas (2025 opener) and now Indiana.
• Doug: “They don't play 12 games for the heck of it at Ohio State... These are a real deal.” ([03:18])

2. Championship Game Stakes and Bowl Implications

[07:00-10:15]

• Winner advances as 1-seed with first-round bye (presumably to the Rose Bowl), loser likely goes to the Orange Bowl, possibly as 2- or 3-seed depending on SEC outcomes.
• Both teams likely secure a top-three playoff seed regardless of outcome—minimal movement projected unless there is an upset by the SEC champion.
• Bill: “I don’t even think falling to four for the loser is really a possibility. I think you’re right that the floor is number three.” ([14:36])

3. OSU vs. Indiana Rivalry History and Current Status

[08:55]

• OSU leads the all-time series 80-12-5, with a 30-game winning streak versus Indiana dating back to 1988.
• Indiana, under new coach Curt Cignetti, overcame being the historically losingest program in college football until recently.

4. How Good Are These Teams?—Advanced Metrics Comparison

[12:04-14:35]

• Both OSU and Indiana have a staggering number of All-Big Ten selections (18 and 17, respectively).
• Pro Football Focus (PFF), SP+ (ESPN), and other analytics consistently rank OSU and Indiana #1 and #2 across offensive and defensive metrics nationally.
• Both teams' defenses are among the top 4, offenses ranked top 3-5.
• Doug: “We know a lot of you guys like T-Shoe. That was a busy day. If for some reason that one got past you, make sure you go back and find the Tyler Shoemaker interview.” ([17:43])—Notes the value of power ratings stacking these teams up nationally.

5. Ohio State Offense vs. Indiana Defense

[19:48-51:34]

Key Stats

• Indiana is #2 in scoring defense (10.9 ppg), OSU is #13 in scoring offense (37 ppg).
• Indiana: #1 red zone touchdown defense (27.8%), #8 in yards/play allowed (4.5).
• OSU: #1 in third down offense, Indiana #4 in third down defense.

Indiana Defensive Line

• Undersized but hyper-productive and havoc-driven; average 285 lbs. across the front, use creative stunts and pressures.
• Makhail Kamara leads the Big Ten in pressures but has only 1 sack—"very puzzling" but attributed to scheme and quick-releasing QBs ([24:24]).
• DC Bryan Haynes, a former OSU GA, is creative in designing havoc without excessive blitzing. “They want to generate a lot of havoc... but they’re not hyper-aggressive… just really creative.” ([27:00] Bill)

Matchup Focus

• Challenge for OSU’s improving O-line is handling stunts, simulated pressures, and Indiana’s strategic isolations.
• OSU’s RBs, especially Bo Jackson and CJ Donaldson, must pass protect well.
• Indiana’s defense is built around confusing looks but doesn’t rely on constant heavy blitzing.

Pass Game Opportunities

• Indiana’s linebackers often targeted in pass defense, "not very good in coverage"—expect TE Max Clare and RBs to be factors.
• Outside CB D’Angelo Ponds is a stud, projects to hold his own against anyone, but Indiana's depth at corner is lacking.
• Doug: “I just don’t know that Indiana has the guys that cover both of [Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith].” ([42:06])

Explosiveness vs. Efficiency

• OSU may see reduced efficiency but more big-play chances.
• With the game indoors and on a “fast track,” Doug anticipates OSU will “grip it and rip it” with deep shots to receivers.

Memorable Quotes

• “If you have two superstars, we really want to make sure that at least one of them is out there on the floor, out there on the field as much as possible.” (Doug, [37:58])
• “It could be somewhat tough sledding trying to throw the ball to the D’Angelo Ponds side... but there could be opportunities elsewhere for Ohio State.” (Bill, [42:09])

6. Heisman Trophy Talk & Voter Biases

[52:29-57:52]

• Bill and Doug debate the Heisman race between OSU’s Julian Sayin, Indiana’s Fernando Mendoza, and Diego Pavia (Vanderbilt).
• Discuss how championship week can shape or decide Heisman winners and the potential for a southern voting bloc to boost Pavia.
• Doug: “Do you think that, like, there’s a Southern block that could hand this thing to Pavia?” ([55:02])
• Bill: “I think there’s a Southern block that’s gonna… have him sort of right in the thick of it.” ([55:10])

7. Indiana Offense vs. Ohio State Defense

[58:53-97:03]

Key Stats and Honors

• OSU: #1 scoring defense (7.8 ppg), gave up only 9 TDs in 12 games.
• Indiana: #2 scoring offense (44.3 ppg), #6 in yards/play.
• Both teams loaded with All-Big Ten talent on D (OSU) and O (Indiana).

Indiana Offensive Line & Skill Players

• Not as dominant, but much improved over 2024, especially with first-teamers (LT Carter Smith, C Pat Coogan).
• LT, LG, and C are strengths (if LG Drew Evans is healthy); RG and RT are potential weak spots—especially against OSU’s DEs.
• Two strong RBs (Hemby, Black), a very good but under-used TE (Nowakowski).
• “This is the best collection of receivers Ohio State will have played.” (Bill, quoting S Jalen McClain, [72:20])
• WRs Elijah Surratt and Omar Cooper Jr. both second-team All-Big Ten—deep, reliable, big-play threats.

Indiana QB Fernando Mendoza

• “He is a more natural athlete than Julian Sayin… he will make big plays with his legs when necessary… but he will also make mistakes.” (Doug, [77:46])
• Veteran (32nd career start), smart, accurate, good decision-maker, and mobile—will play on Sundays (NFL).
• Noted for his RPO game and quick-release; will punish slow adjustments. Heavy RPO, especially over the middle.
• Against pressure: Can make elite throws vs. the blitz but also “gets loose” at times; ranks 18th (out of Power 4 QBs) when blitzed, 4th when not blitzed.
  • “Some of the best defenses he’s faced have lit him up over and over and have been willing to take the risk.” (Doug, [78:18])

OSU Defensive Strategy

• Debate: Should OSU blitz Mendoza?
• Doug and Bill both lean yes—get after him to force mistakes, rather than let him pick apart soft zones.
• OSU’s pass D is elite, with several future NFLers in the secondary but can get “handsy”—might depend on officiating.
• Caleb Downs’ role will be key: may play a “robber” spot to prevent RPO slants in the intermediate middle.
• OSU rarely plays three linebackers; expects to stay in nickel to counter Indiana’s spread.
• “This is a spot where Ohio State’s really going to need [Caleb Downs].” (Bill, [95:12])

Memorable Quotes

• “I have the fate of the program and the fate of Buckeye Nation on my back. I’m not going to let that happen.” —S Jalen McClain, on his tackling responsibility as the back line ([91:42])

8. Game Flow and Final Predictions

[100:10-102:38]

• Both expect a defensive struggle, but with explosive play potential.
• Final picks:
  • Bill: OSU covers, wins 28-20.
  • Doug: OSU 31-23, showing “great respect for Indiana’s offense…. When you have a quarterback like Mendoza, who is a good decision maker but can still make plays, he’s a decision maker and a playmaker.”

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• On the Stakes:

  • “This is a big deal… The only two remaining undefeated teams in college football in the Big Ten Championship. That doesn’t happen often.” —Doug ([02:17])

• On Indiana’s D Coordinator Bryan Haynes:

  • “He’s funny... he always claps back at fans in a way I find really entertaining.” —Bill ([26:09])

• On Strategy:

  • “I think we could see this as good as Julian Sayin is… I think they’ll lean into it.” —Doug, on OSU airing it out indoors ([50:18])

• On Indiana’s Receivers:

  • “This is the best group of receivers they’ve played, and that’s not me saying that, that’s Jalen McClain.” —Bill ([72:20])

• On Defensive Discipline:

  • “That’s my job. I don’t need shout outs.” —Jalen McClain, on saving long runs from turning into TDs against Michigan ([91:57])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Game Context & Stakes: [01:06–06:50]
• Series/Rivalry History: [08:55]
• Metrics Comparison: [12:04–14:35]
• OSU Offense vs. Indiana Defense Deep Dive: [19:48–51:34]
• Heisman Race Analysis: [52:29–57:52]
• Indiana Offense Breakdown: [58:53–97:03]
• Coaching & Team Culture: [98:09–99:07]
• Final Picks: [100:10–102:38]
• Personality/Off-topic Fun:
  • Childhood holiday movies, mustaches, turkey breakfast sandwiches ([103:45–end])
  • “Sexy cartoon animals” & Zootopia ([106:32–108:55])
  • Food safety and leftover turkey debate ([112:20–113:52])

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Overall Tone and Style

Doug and Bill’s banter is breezy, slightly irreverent, but deeply informed—rich with stats, anecdotes, and contextual insight. The episode is a mix of hardcore analysis, historic perspective, and classic sportswriter gallows humor. They reference their reporting background, advanced stats, and even their culinary and facial hair preferences with easy camaraderie.

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is a must for fans seeking an advanced, nuanced preview of the Big Ten title game. The hosts balance historical context, in-the-weeds metrics, and fun human touches—offering both football nerd value (in scheme, stats, and projections) and a taste of the personalities who make Buckeye coverage so enjoyable. Even non-diehards will appreciate learning what makes these teams so good, why this matchup is rare, and where the key stress points lie on the field.

If you want to skip the ads and tangents, focus on the timestamps above for the deep football discussion.

Transcript

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[Doug Lemarise]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Douglas Mason Bill Landis here to Preview Ohio State vs. Indiana 1 vs. 2. The only two remaining undefeated teams in college football will meet in the Big Ten championship game. Championship game on Saturday night in Indianapolis. We will be there. Bill Landis will be driving over tomorrow on Friday. Driving over Friday?

[Bill Landis]

That's right. We'll. We'll take in some of the conference title games on Friday and then probably find some place to watch some games on Saturday before going to Lucas Oil Stadium. I don't know what the kickoff is technically 8:17 by the way.

Because Fox. So but yeah, looking forward to it.

[Doug Lemarise]

It's all foxed up. So they, they do that every week anyway. They just normally don't actually say that, but somehow the Big Noon game starts at 12:17 and they just want you to tune in at noon to get a little bit more of Big Noon so the Big Noon ratings can get jacked up. So it's all. At least they're not lying to us anymore. I didn't look this up. I forgot to look it up. Can you just double check the betting line as I, as I explain what's going on here?

[Bill Landis]

It's. I have it. Yeah, I have it. It's. Well, I guess it could have changed in the last hour, but I'm assuming it hasn't. Ohio State minus four and a half and the total is 47 and a.

[Doug Lemarise]

So it's gone down from five and a half okay, so it's inching closer. Okay, so this is quite a big deal. We talked about it on the show the other day. This is after the Power Four Conference championship games this weekend. There will have been 108 championship games in the in power conference history. This is the 15th for the Big Ten since they started doing this. This is only the third where it's 1 versus 2. The other two were Alabama and Florida in 08 and 09. So this is a big deal. According to the Ohio State game notes, this is the 64th overall 1 versus 2 matchup in college football history, which is kind of a big deal. Ohio State, this is their eighth 1 versus 2 matchup in history and that does include the Texas opener. Boone, Ohio State was number three in the AP poll, but they were two in the coaches poll, so that counts. They were. They were. It was one versus two in somebody's poll. Do you know all the history of those seven games so far? This is the eighth one two in Ohio State history.

[Bill Landis]

I don't know the history of all those.

[Doug Lemarise]

No, it is quite a thing. It is quite a thing. They don't play 12 games for the heck of it at Ohio State. Like these. These are a real deal. So the first one culminating the Super Softs, one of the greatest seasons in Ohio State history. January 1, 1969 in the Rose Bowl. Number one, Ohio State. Number two, USC. A 2716 victory for the Buckeyes, finishing off that 1968 season again, which is one of the greatest in Ohio State history. Right.

Next one.

National championship game at the Fiesta Bowl. January 3, 2003.

[Bill Landis]

They went from 68 to 03 without playing one.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, like. Like how, how would you play it? I guess, right? I mean, I guess like if you slip in a Michigan game, but for all the stuff, you know, like the 10 year war and all that, that kicks off in 69, you know, the next year, their top five matchups, their top 10 matchups all the time. They just never. One versus two. And I don't even know back then if maybe there was something with AP pollsters where they, they wanted to put the number one and two teams in the country from the same conference, from the same area. Right. There might have been times when maybe justifiably Ohio State, Michigan were the two best teams, but they're putting Texas second or Alabama or usc, you know what I mean? So, yeah, that's quite a gap. So now we go to the cul of another one of the greatest seasons in Ohio State history. Ohio State's number two. This time they beat number one, Miami, 3124. I think people have heard of that game.

The next set of These, it's the 2006 season when they play more 1 versus 2 games in the 2006 season than they have played in their existence up until that point. 2006 season. Number one, Ohio State at number two, Texas. 247 win for the Buckeyes in September. The end of that regular season. Number one, Ohio State. Number two, Michigan in Ohio Stadium. 42:39 win for Ohio State National Championship game January 8, 2007. Number one, undefeated Ohio State, wire to wire in the polls. Number two, Florida. 4114 Florida. So that's five. The next one is the next year and the same thing. And this is back in the days of like the BCS, if you're playing in the national championship game, it's 12 by definition, right? So that next year there's chaos at the end of the season. Ohio State thought they weren't going to make the national championship game. They not only made it, they made it as the 1 seed. They're the number one team in the country. Number one, Ohio State. Number two, LSU 3824 loss for the Buckeyes. So you have the, the, you know, the culmination of two of the greatest seasons in Ohio State history. You have these two regular season games in 06 that are awesome. Ohio State's four zero in one versus two games. Then they have like you have these two defining national championship games, Ohio State versus the SEC and back to back years in 06 and 07. That define kind of the middle and end of the trestle era, which is they dominate the Big Ten, they beat Michigan every year, but they go out to the national stage and they can't quite hang, right? So O2 Miami, they could. That's the narrative of that. So that, that's very important in Ohio State history. And then we don't have another one until this season's opener. So we go from the 2007 season to the 2025 season. Ohio State didn't have one. This one. There were two in the coaches poll. Texas is number one. They win 14 7. They are five and two all time in one two games. So there you have it. And now the eighth.

[Bill Landis]

Were you able to look through like the complete history of one versus two games, not just Ohio State?

[Doug Lemarise]

I asked to be sent that. I have not received it yet.

[Bill Landis]

So I'm just wondering how many times a team has played multiple in one season. Because this is now the second time Ohio State's done it.

[Doug Lemarise]

You know, and if you follow this, if you want to follow 06, and again, like Ohio State fans, they want to follow too hard. You have the early season matchup with Texas. That's 1, 2. You have this culminating event against the number two team in the country that's also in the Big Ten. In 06, it was the last regular season game against Michigan. This one is the conference championship game against Indiana. And then will Ohio State wind up playing a one versus two game in the playoff? Could they be in a national championship game as the number one or number two team against the number one or number two team? So sure, that would be the case. And depending on that, if Ohio State loses, the only one, only way it would be is if it's a rematch. If Ohio State only drops to two, Indiana's one, you're playing again in the national championship game or Ohio State's number one, and that is number two Indiana, because they didn't move, is number two the SEC champ. And then you get that, the national championship game. So anyway, gotta lay that out. Bill. This is crazy special.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know. I'm glad you got that. That rundown of when those games happen because, like, if just knowing whatever the total that there have been and the record is one thing, but like, the circumstances are another thing. Can I. I want to correct the record as well. I can't remember what show I said this on, but I think I said like, the loser of this game is going to the Cotton Bowl.

It actually looks at the moment like maybe the loser of this game would go to the Orange Bowl. The winner obviously goes to the rose because the Big Ten champ will always go to the rose. But with.

The possibility of like the ACC champ, like, not getting in me. Oh. Or at least not getting. Not getting a buy. Certainly.

And Texas, it's like a Texas Tech WINS the Big 12, they'll go to the Cotton bowl and the Big Ten loser will go to the Orange Bowl.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay. Okay.

Make your travel plans accordingly. Not as exciting. The Ohio State Indiana rivalry history. Ohio State 80, 12 and 5 all time versus Indiana. Winspedia is a great site. I like it. They you can search by winning percentage. So Ohio State is a bunch of teams that they're undefeated against. So their best winning percentages are we're 10 and 0 against this team. We covered that with Rutgers on that Preview show. Or 4, 0 against this team, whatever. But among the teams that they've played more than like 20 times that they're not undefeated against the teams they have the best winning percentage against are Minnesota. They've won 87.3% of their games against Minnesota and Indiana. They've won 85.1% of their games. They've won 30 in a row against Indiana. Back to a tie in 1990. The last time the Hoosiers actually won was 1988. Isn't that wild?

[Bill Landis]

Yes, because that's the year I was born.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. So like this is one of those. It's one of those where. That's the Indiana. Right? While until Kurt Signetti got there. It's like, hey, have you heard? Ohio State hasn't lost to Indiana since 1988. And people would have been like, yeah, I can't believe they lost in 1988. How is this not a 70 year winning streak? What are you talking about? It's only into the 80s. That was Bill Mallory taking care of new John Cooper in that one. Welcome to the Big Ten Coop. Here's Bill Mallory.

[Bill Landis]

Poor Coop.

[Doug Lemarise]

Cradle of coaches. Here's Bill Mallory.

[Bill Landis]

Boom.

[Doug Lemarise]

You like that? You like some of this? Bill Mallory right here for you. Boom. Bill Mallory. And since then, nothing. And that's Indiana. They were the losing his program in college football until they. Kurt Signetti went 4000 in the last two seasons and now Northwestern is. So this is where. Where Indiana is.

I think this count is right. The. The all Big Ten teams came out the last two days squeezed in between everything else going on in college football. Because why would the Big Ten wait and release them next week when there's nothing going on? And you could give proper accolades to the fine players in the Big Ten? Why not squeeze them in to make content so that the Big Ten network can get slightly higher ratings against soap operas on a. On a Tuesday and Wednesday afternoon or a Wednesday and Thursday afternoon. Excuse me. Listen, the Big Ten network, we're not gonna let days of our lives dominate us anymore. We're putting out the all Big Ten team. Take that. Days of Our Lives. Days of our Lives still on. You ever watch soap operas?

[Bill Landis]

I'm sure that. No, not really, but I'm aware of their existence. I think it might be still on. Do you think perhaps the Big Ten would have moved the awards to next week had they had more coach firings to be covering? But they didn't have that.

[Doug Lemarise]

Oh, that's. That's tough because the SEC Network is just coach. SEC Network's ratings are through the roof. Yeah, their conference is in disarray. But Lane Kiffin. Good for ratings. Do you think the head of the Big Ten network sit around going like, God, I wish we had Lane Kiffin.

[Bill Landis]

Yes, absolutely.

[Doug Lemarise]

Why can't we be in disarray?

[Bill Landis]

Why out there on a tarmac? Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Why are our teams so good? It's terrible for ratings. What if we put out the all Big Ten team?

I think this is right.

First, second and third, all Big Ten. I think Ohio State had 18 people in. Indiana had 17. Which is basically, if you start for Indiana and Ohio State, you're one of the three best players in the conference at your position.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that sounds about right. That sounds about right. And I would imagine.

Maybe like, I'm just trying to think like both teams, like probably not a ton of first team offensive linemen, but otherwise first teamers kind of all over the place. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Carter Smith, Indiana left first.

[Bill Landis]

He's very good. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Take a Shabola third team for Ohio State. A guy that we've had questions about all your third team. I think for Ohio State, the only three positions that did not make first, second or third team all Big Ten is the second defensive tackle position next to Cade McDonald which is kind of a rotation.

[Bill Landis]

Yep.

[Doug Lemarise]

Slot corner.

And slot receiver.

[Bill Landis]

Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

Everybody else made it. So that's how good these teams are. Bill, do you think they're both good?

[Bill Landis]

They are both good. I have some other stuff for you so you can actually on Pro Football Focus, like rank the teams by overall grade. Indiana is first, number two on offense, number two on defense. Ohio State is second number one on offense, number four on defense by SP + Bill Connolly's metric at SP ESPN. Ohio State number one overall, number five on offense, number one on defense. Indiana number two overall, number three on offense, number two on defense. And then EPA per play according to CFBgraphs.com Ohio State number one overall, number four on offense, number two on defense dot Indiana number two overall number one on offense, number four on defense. Yeah, they're good.

[Doug Lemarise]

Let me throw in my guy, Brian for Mo fei ratings. Indiana 1 fifth on offense, third on defense. Ohio State 2 ninth on offense, first on defense. So yeah. Oregon 3, Notre Dame 4. Long live the North.

That's where this stands. We've covered the fact that we think they care. We think they're both going to play pretty hard. We've covered the fact that the winner is clearly the 1 seed and headed to the Rose bowl after their first round buy the loser is either going to be the two or the three seed. And. And there were some questions asked about do you think they. You both deserve first Round buys this week. Like that's not even. That's not even a question. You couldn't. If you couldn't find four teams if you're not putting in the second the loser of this game in a buy.

[Commercial Announcer]

No.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that's. That's locked in. And I don't even think falling to four for the loser is really a possibility. I think, I think you're right that the floor is number three.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. So the floor is number three. So the loser will be two or three. So we could. We'd certainly.

[Bill Landis]

They might not move. They might not move.

[Doug Lemarise]

And they might not move. They might not move depending how it goes. And especially like, like Ohio State. I don't know if Ohio State would drop to three. Right. Because that would still be a drop drops to two.

[Bill Landis]

That's true. Yeah. I think. Actually I don't know because I think that's right about Ohio State and like Indiana's like resume is still very good even if it takes this loss. Right. So I don't. Maybe they're. Maybe they're one two no matter what.

[Doug Lemarise]

And if Bama wins the sec, I think they're one two. So I think the only team that could be two is SEC champion Georgia with one loss that is avenging. It's only lost to Alabama and they do like conference championships. They reward conference champions more than non champions. So I do think if. If George is the SEC champ with one loss avenging its only loss. They're. They're probably the two. Even if Ohio State loses, they're probably the two.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Then you get into a head to head a little bit. Like Georgia beat Texas more convincingly than Ohio State did. Like just get into a little bit of stuff. So I probably. If I think Georgia probably is. Is the. The two seat as the SEC champion.

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[Doug Lemarise]

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[Bill Landis]

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[Bill Landis]

Who knew?

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[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, so, okay, let's talk about football. We're going to break it down on both sides of the ball. Just a reminder. Just a reminder. Because it's just a fire hose week, we couldn't be happier. But it's a crazy week. Like, we're just trying to keep up, so we're talking. You talked to. Who'd you talk to this morning to tell the folks to make sure they don't miss that show? The YouTube podcast feed.

[Bill Landis]

Taylor Layman, who, I didn't know this, by the way, is like, he covers Indiana for bite sized bison on Substack and like until Sunday and it's done. So, yeah, he just got like a real job and he's shutting it down. But he, he knows Indiana football inside and out. So I talked to him this morning to get. Because we're just going to spitball here. Like, we watched Indiana, we're going to give our opinions, but Taylor's an expert on Indiana, so we wanted to get his, his input as well before we did this. So that is up in the feed already.

[Doug Lemarise]

And I talked to Tyler Shoemaker earlier in the week on that went up Tuesday morning and. And we talked about sort of like his power ratings and how Indiana and Ohio State stack up against each other, how they stack up to other teams in the country. So we know a lot of you guys like tissue. That was a busy day. If for some reason that one caught Pat got past you, make sure you go back in the feed and find the Tyler Shoemaker interview. We also would invite you to join us on Substack. We've got a lot of people coming in, Bill, and I don't want to brag. We don't want to brag, but we just. I think we are now the number one college football substack that covers a specific team because we just moved past somebody. No offense to that person, but we got you.

[Bill Landis]

We did. We are. We are number one. We are number one.

[Doug Lemarise]

And we're number one because of the people out there, the people who, who subscribe very much. We know a lot of you who subscribe are watching and listening right now, and we're eternally grateful for that. It's been continuing to add more people there. If you want to Join us over there. Bill and Doug OSU substack.com Bill and Doug OSU.substack.com and a final thing, our friends at Roback Bad 20 is the code. It'll get you 20 off your first order at Roback. Holiday seasons here, go to the game day collection. Cool, casual, classy. That's what Roback does with your favorite team gear. It's R H O-B-A-K.com.

A lot going on for the Ohio State Michigan breakdown that we did last week. I went first. Now, we kept the same sides of the ball because in a busy week, it was like last week I had. I hope we did this right. I had Ohio State defense and Michigan offense. So I kept doing Ohio State defense and Indiana offense. Is that correct?

[Bill Landis]

That is correct. Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

Thank. We will. I don't know if we've done it yet, but there will be a day when we get to the big game breakdown and we will not break down both sides of the ball. We will just break down the same side of the ball twice. It did not happen.

[Bill Landis]

Get a more thorough breakdown of one side of the ball when that day comes.

[Doug Lemarise]

Other side of the ball. Good luck, everybody. That did not happen today. I went first last week. Why don't you go first this week? Which means that you would start with Ohio State offense versus Indiana defense. Philly, Billy, what you got?

[Bill Landis]

Sure. I like to. To give the like, lay the land sort of statistically before we dive into anything specific.

Indiana scoring defense, number two in the country, 10.9 points per game. They've allowed 12 touchdowns in 12 games. Ohio State scoring offense, number 13 in the country, 37 points per game. But I did note, and I wanted to mention this like, because there's this notion of like Ohio, none of the ocean. It's a fact. Ohio State, the last two years are just sort of like played it a little differently during the regular season. So their scoring average is down a little bit. If you looked at, look at last year in December they averaged December and January they averaged like a touch more than a touchdown, more per game than they did like in October, November. So like their scoring did go up. And I would. Would anticipate, I would anticipate it going up a little bit this year too, now that we're sort of in the postseason. But for right now, it's 37 points. We're getting 14th in the country. Yards per play. Ohio State's 14th in the country, 6.9. Indiana's defense eighth, 4.5. Third down, Ohio State is first on offense and Indiana is fourth on defense. Red zone touchdown percentage. Ohio State is 30th. They did dip back below 70%. They're at 69.4%. Indiana's defense is first, 27.8. Red zone touchdown percentage.

[Doug Lemarise]

Best. Best goal line defense. Best red zone defense. Defense in the country. Yeah, interesting. Interesting.

[Bill Landis]

A lot of defensive metrics, it's like Indiana or Ohio State or first or second. Yeah. But Indiana is, Is first here, so that's sort of the lay of the land. I. I guess I'll start with. I think you have to start with Indiana's defensive line. And I said this to Taylor on the show that we did earlier on Thursday morning, and I said, like, you watch Indiana's defensive line, and they, they do look undersized. Like, I was watching them against Oregon. Oregon's got, like, a big, burly offensive line. Penn State's got a big, burly offensive line. They, they look like they're at a significant size disadvantage. And if you just take the, the top six guys that play, which is kind of only two guys on the edge. Mikhail Kamara, excellent player. Stephen Daly, transfer from Kent State, and then they kind of roll four guys through. A defensive tackle, Tyreek Tucker, who was on the team last year, Mario Landino, who's a true sophomore, and then a couple of transfers, Jose Wheeler from Western Kentucky and Dominique Ratcliffe from Texas State. All six of those guys combined. They only average 285 pounds, which is like, probably low on, like, for Big Ten, for Power Four defensive line. But it doesn't matter because they just really. They really get. After you run and pass. They're just, they're, they're, they're a hard group to deal with and, and watch. Like, you know, I watched. I sort of like, watched the Oregon game, like, kind of out of the corner of my eye when it happened live earlier this season. And then going back and watching it closer like that, that offensive line to me is top five in the country. And they just really could not do a whole lot against Indiana's defensive front. It was, it was something else. Yeah, it was something else. To see how, how Indiana controlled the line of scrimmage in that game. Like, I would say better in like, pass rush situations than maybe they were against the run. If you look at that game, like, Oregon's run efficiency, I think they might have averaged fewer than 3 yards per carry, but there were a lot of sacks in there. If you take the sacks out.

Oregon's running backs did. Did average like, just over Five yards per carry, which is pretty efficient. But there wasn't a lot of, like. There was very little. In fact, if, like, Indiana getting blown off the ball and, like, in passing situations, they just kind of tore Oregon apart or Oregon really didn't have any answer to try to block them. And Dante Moore ended up getting sacked a lot. They have a bunch of guys, like, in their front seven who can get after the quarterback. If you. If you include linebacker Elijah Hardy, they have five guys with 20 pressures. Like, compared to Ohio State, Ohio State only has three. And Mikhail Kamara. I don't. This is very puzzling to me. It reminds me a little bit of his name is escaping me. Is it Shamar Stort, the guy from Texas A M that the Bengals just drafted? Is that who. Yeah. Who had, like, a billion pressures and no sacks. Mikhail Kamara has 46 pressures, which is tied for 15th in the FBS and first in the Big Ten, and he has one sack. I don't know why. I don't know why that's the case. It's very strange.

[Doug Lemarise]

I mean, sometimes your reputation can precede you, and they're like, I'm getting rid of the ball before that guy gets to me.

[Bill Landis]

Sure. I think. I think that could be it. They. They end up dropping him out a lot. A decent amount to, like, sort of like a surprising amount. He's. He's an interesting player. He's 6, 1 2, 62, and he's a defensive end. He's like, more built like a fullback, and he's playing defensive end, but he's very good. Elijah Hardy, the linebacker, leads the team in sacks. He has seven, but he only has 20 pressure. So he has half. Half the pressures of Kamara and six more sacks.

Daily. Has.

[Doug Lemarise]

Surprised. He's surprised.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Daly has 35 pressures. Landino. I really like Mario Landino. He's. He's a true sophomore defensive tackle who was a commit to JMU and then flipped to Indiana last year when the staff got hired. He looks like he's gonna be really good player. He has 28 pressures from the interior. Tyreek Tucker has 22 pressures from the interior.

And they don't. They don't blitz a ton. Like, they don't. They don't send more than five a ton, I guess probably the better way to say it, but they're really good at.

Sort of attacking offensive lines in a way that just creates one on ones and like. And isolates. I like. They're actually quite good at, like, isolating running backs and pass protection, but also they'll just kind of like, isolate your worst pass protector. And they're just super strategic about how they go about it. Like. Like, to a man, I don't know that there's anybody who's like, you know, overwhelming as an individual player. And frankly, I don't even know how many guys on Indiana's defense are going to be NFL players, because a lot of them are kind of undersized.

But they're really well coached and playing credibly well within the scheme, and I think that shows up most along Indiana's defensive line.

[Doug Lemarise]

And Brian Haynes, you love Brian.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, Brian Haynes is real. Is. Is one. He's funny. Do you ever follow him on Twitter? The Indiana defensive coordinator, somebody he always, like, claps back at fans in a way that I find really entertaining. And somebody. Somebody earlier this week, fans who are.

[Doug Lemarise]

Complaining about things, they're 23 and 1 in the regular season, last two years.

[Bill Landis]

It wasn't even a complaint. Like, somebody said, like, somebody tweeted at him and said, like, gotta stop the run this week, coach. And he replied and he said, like, oh, do you think it's important to cover number four and number teen, too?

Which, like, I appreciated him taking time out of his Ohio State prep to say that to an Indiana fan, but he's. Yeah, he's. He's really good. He's. He's from Ohio.

Like, Central. Like, West Central Ohio, I think. Was a GA at Ohio State in 2013 on Urban Meyer staff and then has sort of been with Kurt Signetti ever since then and been his defensive coordinator for a really long time. And I, you know, they're the two best defenses, so maybe it's easy to say, but, like, like, he and Matt Patricia may be the two best defensive coordinators in college football right now. And it's a. It's a scheme that is like it. They want to generate a lot of havoc. Kurt Signetti said this the other day. Havoc is sort of how they want to go about their business. But they're not. They're not, like, hyper aggressive in achieving that. Like, they're not. It's not like Manny Diaz sending 10 guys to the ball or Jim Knowles blitzing out of his mind. Like, they're just really creative about how they generate pressure. And I think it's going to put a lot of stress on. Stress on Ohio State's offensive line in this game, handling all these twists and stunts up front. They're going to see a ton of it and, like, simulated pressures where there'll be six guys up on the line and two of the linemen drop out and the linebacker rushes and it's still a four man rush but it just feels like something more than that. And I think it's good for Ohio State's offensive line that it's coming off a game against Michigan where it obviously pass blocked incredibly well because it didn't allow a pressure. But the, the little bit that Michigan did throw some similar stuff at Ohio State, they handled it really well. They're going to see a lot more of it against Indiana, but.

I don't know. Right. Ryan Day said it, he thought this was the best offensive line game. I certainly thought it was the best offensive line game that Ohio State's coming off of. But this is probably going to be their biggest challenge. Right. Of course those are playing the, the second best defense in the country besides their own. But particularly with the stuff that Indiana does up front. I, I think it is going to present.

Some issues for Ohio State. Like I, I, part of me wonders if Ohio State might see a dip in its efficiency in this game and perhaps be a little beat. But maybe the trade off is they can find ways to be more explosive. But, but I do think just like down to down, it's a pretty hard defense to move the ball against because of how.

Just like creative and, and sort of tricky the defensive line can be for Indiana.

[Doug Lemarise]

How do you think people reacted when Brian Haynes as a GA at Ohio State after 2013 was like, I'm leaving. I got a job. And they're like, oh cool, where did you get a job? He's like, I got a job at Indiana, University of Pennsylvania. I'm like, you're leaving Ohio State to do that? He's like, yeah, I'm going to be the defensive line coach and do a little bit of strength and conditioning stuff. I'm sure Urban was like, good luck, you're leaving Ohio State for that. And the head coach of IUP was Kurt Signetti and he's been with him ever since, four different places. Remarkable.

[Bill Landis]

Maybe he thought it was the Indiana Hoochers. It was a big time job.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. For. Oh for real. That would be a great question to ask if we, if we get a chance to ask Brian Haynes a question. Did you mistakenly take a job with Kurt Signetti the first time around and now coincidentally, you're back at Indiana.

Best game by the offensive line. A lot of confidence on the Ohio State offensive line right now. Philip Daniels was expressing that like when, when we talked to him on Wednesday night.

It's, it's it's sort of nice to see a group come together, right? But the thing that I think you've been very good on this year, of course you're good on everything on the offensive line is them handling different looks, them handling stunts, them picking up things and, and you've created a scenario here where you expect Indiana to kind of throw some stuff at them. Do you think they're in a good spot there because they got physical on the, the 20 play drive and took up 12 minutes and ran the ball down Michigan's throat. But if they want to throw the ball, can they handle the looks that Brian Haynes is going to throw at him?

[Bill Landis]

I think, I think they can.

Sort of like for the, whatever the, the full length of the game, like I think they'll handle it well enough. But, but I, I guess I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we see the pressure rate go up a little bit in this game. Like for Julian saying if he's, if he's perhaps under duress a little more. The good thing for Ohio State I would say is like, it's not, it wasn't something that like suddenly showed up against Michigan their ability to handle like that movement up front because they did it against Rutgers too. If you think back to like the, the Wisconsin game, like that defensive line was moving all over the place and Ohio State really didn't, didn't seem like it had any idea of what it was supposed to do up front. And then it just sort of like kept working on it and working on and working on it and then the next thing to kind of throw a lot of stuff at it in that area was Rutgers and they handled it pretty well. Now Indiana's players are much better than Rutgers and Indiana's defensive line, while not as deep, is better than Michigan's. So it's a, it's a stiffer challenge in that way. But yeah, I think if you just look at some of the stuff like technically that Ohio State was doing on the offensive line, which like, it may sound so simple but like they're playing with their eyes up, which is great because too many times like in the mid season they would just like be in their past sets with their eyes down and then here comes the guy looping around and no one sees them. So, so they've just been a lot better at that.

I think everybody knows, right? Like the hope. Anyways, the offensive line continues to gel over the course of the season and these guys have gotten a lot of reps together and there's been less rotation on the right side the last couple of games, too. So I think that probably helped. That probably helps. Tiger Shabol and Philip Daniels. Yeah. Who are. Who were sort of like the most egregious offenders mid season at handling that stuff. Be better at it now.

So I'll be interested to see, like, what side of the line Indiana chooses to like, stress test more. I'm sure it'll still be the right side. I. I think in addition to the O line, there's going to be some moments where the running backs have to step up and pass protection. Bo Jackson had a really nice pickup on the third down to Brandon Innis against Michigan on the drive wearing a scored like there was kind of a free runner coming in. Bo Jackson picked him up. I think CJ Donaldson increasingly has been more reliable there. So I think it's probably going to be another game where Jackson and Donaldson play the most at running back because of that. But, you know, like, pass protection has not been a huge issue for Ohio State this year. They're 12th in the. In the PFF pass blocking efficiency metric. And if you look like sacks allowed per game or even tackles, allow tackles for loss allow per game. Ohio State is among the best in the country. So I don't think it's like a mismatch or anything like that. It's just a challenge. Like, they're. They're very good and schematically they'll throw a lot at you. Excuse me. There was a play in the Oregon game in the fourth quarter when the game is like, into balance and Indiana's trying to get Oregon off the field. And they ran a play where they put, I think it was seven guys up on the line and then three of them dropped out. A different guy who wasn't up on the line rushed from depth. And then they also, with that ran a twist in the middle with their two defensive tackles. And the result was one of those defensive tackles was just like, basically unblocked and just ran right up the middle, batted a Dante Moore pass up in the air, and was intercepted and the game was over. So, like that. That's the kind of stuff that they're gonna throw at Ohio State, I think. And it's just, you have to prepare for a lot. And it's not like Ohio State has extra time to get ready for Indiana. The what? Actually, like, kind of a side note.

I don't think Ohio State was thinking about Indiana at all prior to Michigan because they had to beat Michigan. But I bet Indiana was preparing for Ohio State during its bye week. Before it played Purdue.

[Doug Lemarise]

I bet you're right. I don't know more during Purdue week.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I don't know how that might show up, but I do think Indiana took that approach.

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[Doug Lemarise]

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[Bill Landis]

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[Bill Landis]

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[Doug Lemarise]

That's a really interesting point because it's just so odd to me to have your bye week. So it was, it was a year of two bye weeks. Everybody knows that in Indiana's second buy was in week 13 was and then it's like well you only have one game left, why do you need a buy here? And so you have to survive that big chunk of the season where everybody else is getting their second off week and you didn't. But actually if you are a team good enough to advance your conference championship game or the postseason, man, that late by could be quite a little thing. Look at you finding a little thing. I did, I did not think about that at all. I just was watching during the course of the year these team with late late bye weeks and thinking it's weird but it actually could be quite a little edge for a game like this. Interesting.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. And Kurt Signetti, I can't remember if he was asked about it specifically. I think he was sort of asked just like generally like how much have you watched Ohio State this year? And he did like sort of allude to watching them. He said like we watched them a little bit during the bi week and in my head was like you watch them a lot a bit during the bi week, you maybe watch them exclusively during the bye week. So I don't think it's going to be like a huge, huge advantage because both these teams have played 12 games and and for the most part the book is out on on everybody but Indiana like unquestionably got a head start on preparing for Ohio State. Yeah. Compared to Ohio State's prep.

[Doug Lemarise]

Can I just remind the folks also watch it at the end of the show. That is the plan. We did not get to it on our Wednesday show for Substack subscribers because as we were doing that Wednesday show, the Brian Hartline news broke, and so we had to choose between Hulu and hot dogs or Heartline, and you made us talk about football. So now we have to talk about streaming shows and snacks at the end of the show.

[Bill Landis]

Apologies. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

All right. Can Indiana cover Ohio State? Canadian Indiana cover like the Ohio State receivers are playing? Yes. Bill Landis, the information we got on Wednesday night was. Yes.

[Bill Landis]

Fully expect. Yeah, well, yes, the information we got was yes, but the other thing too was like for the last month when we would go to the Woody on a Wednesday night, they were always very careful to make sure the receivers weren't on the field once we got in there. And they were on the field this past one this. This Wednesday when we went in there. So they're not trying to hide anything. Looked like Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith were practicing and they should be full go. I think I would be surprised if they don't play. Perhaps snap count limited, because it did, even in the mission game felt like they were a little snap count limited.

[Doug Lemarise]

You know what? It felt like that. And they both played double the number of snaps that Brandon Ennis did. So, like, I was thinking that during. At the time also, but I think it was actually just like a little bit of like some more 12 and 13 personnel. I think there were times when maybe one of them was on the field, but not both.

[Bill Landis]

But that was. That was more of the thing that I noticed is that they weren't always out there together.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yes, but that's. It's almost like an NBA team at this point. It's like, well, if you have two superstars, we really want to make sure that at least one of them is out there on the floor, out there on the field as much as possible. And I think you did feel that a little bit. So they weren't, you know, they weren't up near 100 of snaps. But it felt lower to me during the game than what. What the numbers actually showed on. Pff.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. So the starters, the 73 snaps.

Jeremiah Smith played 45 and Carnell Tate played 42. So they.

[Doug Lemarise]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

In an ideal world, they're. They're probably playing all 73 with Julian saying they didn't quite do that.

[Doug Lemarise]

But. But actually. But yeah, but but part of it was right. But if you look at like the backup receiver snaps, I think like David Adolf had 13 and Bryson Rogers had 10. And like we said, Brandon Innis played in the 20s. But I think some portion of that was. There was just a decent number of times where.

There weren't that many receivers on the field in general, you know, which is also is a great way to rest them. I would be curious to go back and look on that 20 play drive. How often were Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate on the field on that drive?

[Bill Landis]

I don't know. There was a lot of 13 personnel. Like, like Jeremiah's touchdown on 4th and 5 was actually. I didn't realize it in the moment. Like going back and looking at it, 13 personnel, he was the only receiver on the field. And like Michigan got, Michigan got big to match it. And then it was like, well, Jeremiah's one on one, I guess, I guess we'll throw the ball to him like that. That, I mean we've talked about it all year. That's that benefit of Ohio State playing these multi personnel or multi tight end packages which actually could be interesting in this game because Indiana.

Indiana seems to prefer playing with three linebackers. I think like during the broadcast, one of the games I was watching, they, they noted that like Indiana thinks their best 11 is when they have a third linebacker on the field who would be Isaiah Jones. Or two main linebackers are Aiden Fisher, great player, one of the best linebackers in the country, JMU guy, and Elijah Hardy who was actually already at Indiana when the staff arrived and they just kind of like developed him into a very good player. And then Isaiah Jones is the third one. So I don't think like Ohio state playing in 12 personnel as much as it does, I don't think will force Indiana into doing something personnel wise it doesn't want to do. But.

It'S really kind of weird to look at Indiana's defensive profile when teams are throwing the ball because the two most targeted players are linebackers.

Party. Like it's.

[Doug Lemarise]

What's.

[Bill Landis]

That's weird, right? I don't know. Well, they're a really good defense. They don't, they don't face a lot.

[Doug Lemarise]

Of interesting check downs. They're just throwing at tight ends and running backs.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, it seems to be the case. Like the most targeted player is Hardy, linebacker, 43 targets and he's not good in coverage because he's a linebacker. And then, and then Jones, who again is like their third linebacker, has been targeted 40 times and also not very Good. Russell's not very good in coverage. So, like, before we talk about the receivers and the DBs, like, I, I do think this could be perhaps an opportunity for Max Claire, like, in the middle of the field behind the linebackers. Salt Bo Jackson have. Was a 49 receiving yards last week against Michigan, and he's a, He's a pretty solid receiver out of the backfield. I think you could see him have another nice day catching the ball too. And then like in, in the secondary, d' Angelo Pons is, is a freak. Like, he has no business being as good as he is at 5 foot 9, but he's, he's an excellent cornerback. I went back and looked last last year's game.

Ponzu played at the same high school as Jeremiah Smith down in South Florida. I was targeted seven times last year against Ohio State to give up three catches. And against Jeremiah Smith specifically, according to pff, he was targeted three times and gave up one catch. Like, I'm not saying Ponza is going to shut down whichever guy he's matched up against, but I'm just saying, like, he's up for it. He's. He's very much up to the task and like, relishes the opportunity to play against guys like Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate. I just don't know that Indiana has the guys that cover both of them. And welcome.

[Doug Lemarise]

And welcome to the. To the party.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Race for a lot of people.

[Bill Landis]

Taylor. Taylor, when I spoke to him, kind of alluded to this, too. Indiana's second corner, Jamari Sharp, I think is a good player. But it. If you watch Indiana over the stretch of a couple games, like, that's the one thing I thought, obviously watch Ohio State all year and like, getting more familiar with Indiana. Now, statistical profiles, the defenses are very similar. Just two of the. Two of the best would be the two best. Well, probably not the two best, but like two of the four best in the country. But Indiana does give up more explosive plays in Ohio State. I don't think they give up a lot of explosive plays, but they get a little leaky sometimes. And in the past game, that seems to happen basically against everyone other than d' Angelo Pons. You'll see. You'll see a safety get lost in coverage. They give a big touchdown to Oregon early in that game and safety got lost in coverage. They gave up a big completion against Penn State because Jamari Sharp got kind of shaken out of his shoes by Trevor Pena. And there was a couple of big completions for Penn State in that game. So I just like, you know, few, if any teams have two cornerbacks who can cover both of Ohio State's excellent receivers. And Indiana is just like another one of those teams. So I do think it could be somewhat tough sledding trying to throw the ball to the. D' Angelo Pond's signed outside of the field. But I think there could be opportunities elsewhere for Ohio State, whether that is whichever receiver is matched up with the other corner or to these linebackers or excuse me, to these tight ends or running backs against Indiana's linebackers. And the, the other thing I'm curious about when it comes to Indiana covering Ohio State passing wise is Indiana does not play a lot of like split safety stuff. They play a lot of COVID three, so a lot of single high safety stuff. And I don't, I wonder if that might give Ohio State some more opportunities to get behind some people. That's why I kind of, I think like I said, I, there are reasons to think that maybe the efficiency might, might dip a little bit for Ohio State's offense, but I do think there's going to be opportunities to be explosive and I do think Ryan Day might take that trade off if they can get a couple big scores.

[Doug Lemarise]

Has it not been the case that a decent number of those Carnell Tate deep shots this year have been against single high safety where the safety lean toward Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate winds up one on one and it's game over?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, the one against Michigan last, last week was, was too high safeties. But yes, a lot, a lot of the very pretty deep ball connections we've seen from Julian Saying and Carnell Tate have come when the only safety who's deep is, is worried about Jeremiah Smith.

[Doug Lemarise]

So I asked Ryan Day sort of about and he had mentioned this earlier in the week about like, is how different is the game planning when you're getting ready to go play indoors instead of getting ready to go play in the snow in Ann Arbor. And, and he like kind of took that and went into like all the things they were planning to get ready for Michigan last week and they thought like on Wednesday they thought okay, it's gonna be second half snow, we have to plan for that. The one thing that we, you could feel it when we weren't, we were at practice on Wednesday night afterward and that it was hot in there and they said they turned up the heat inside the Woody Hayes Athletic center to practice indoors to get ready for what it's going to be like in Indy. But do you think from a game plan Perspective, they are going to go out and let it rip because. And he said it'll be fast track, clean game, full hearts, can't lose. Was the full out part of that quote. He just said the fast track, clean game, but like fast track, clean game. That's when it's, that's when it's go time for the Ohio State passing game. Do you think, Are you anticipating Ohio State throwing the ball all over the yard?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think they'll try to. I. The other thing I say, I think, I think it'll be. I think it'd probably be harder to run the ball against Indiana than it was against Michigan. The run game looked great last week and that was awesome because they needed it, but the weather sort of dictated that they would need that. And then not only was it there and available to them, it was, it was a weapon.

Indiana's defense just does not give up a ton on the run game. Their defense in every game but one has given up negative EPA per rush. Oh, the only team that like really ran it well against them was Old Dominion in the opener, which is like kind of weird and ultimate. I, I didn't watch the game because it's Old Dominion. Old Dominion averaged 9.48 yards per carry in that game. I don't know what happened, but everyone else they played, including Oregon, who's an excellent rushing team in Iowa, that must run the ball to exist. Average four under four yards per carry. Oh, no sacks are worked into that as well, as I said earlier, but it's just a really good rush defense that, that really no one has, has been able to crack all that consistently.

And I don't, I don't know. Ohio State could be that team, like maybe this run game about to take off when we don't realize it. But I, I very much think sort of given the strengths and weaknesses of both of these teams and the fact that it's going to be a sterile environment that Ohio State will try to throw it all over the place. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

So this will be the third time that, that Ryan Day is a head coach is taking his team indoors to Indianapolis. First Big Ten championship game in 2019. K.J. hill, nine targets, seven catches for 83 yards. Chris Olave, eight targets, five catches for 94 yards. Ben Victor, four targets, three catches for 55 yards. So that was how they used the receivers in that game. Kind of like receiver first. Right. They, they threw a little bit. 2020 was the weird one where.

With the COVID stuff. Right. They didn't actually have the, the Full complement.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Was out for that game.

[Bill Landis]

I love it. Yeah. Which one? It was so.

[Doug Lemarise]

Garrett Wilson, nine targets, four catches, 49 yards. Julian Fleming, seven targets, four catches, 53 yards. Jameson William William Williams, three targets, no catches.

[Bill Landis]

So Trey Sherman, nine million rushing yards.

[Doug Lemarise]

Trey Sermon. Yes. And also he caught three passes for four yards. And also now you're gonna make me look. I just want to actually see what it was. I want to see the stats of it. Trey Sermon, 29 attempts, 331 yards, 11.4 yards per attempt, 2 touchdowns, 6.76 yards after contact 6. 17 missed tackles forced.

[Bill Landis]

It's the greatest individual rushing performance of all time in Ohio State history by Trey Sermon. In an empty stadium.

[Doug Lemarise]

In an empty stadium. Also, I'm looking at this, and sometimes you have to look at the key to figure out what these abbreviations mean on PFF. So I think this is right, KK3, that's karate kicks.

So. So anyway, I think they're gonna grip it and rip it because also you want to, like you. You. You know, it's one of those things. We talked about it last week to play. 50 yard drive in 45 seconds, deep ball to Carnell Tate, and then followed it with the next drive is 20 plays, 16 of them runs. Takes almost 12 minutes. That's Ohio State at its best, right? That you can do both. But there are times when I think. I think the biggest limiting effect on the Ohio State passing game this year at times has been like, not trying it, not wanting to, not needing to. Maybe at times not taking what is there. And so I would imagine there's a conversation this week when you're playing a team this good and you need to be explosive, that they. I'm sure they've talked to Julian saying about, if you see it, let it go. Like, don't, you know, maybe. Maybe there's a little bit more of a risk factor that you can do. We've talked about it all year. But also they want to and need to. So I think we could see this as good as Julian saying is. And he has the best completion percentage on deep shots of anybody in the country. That remains the case. He has the best completion percentage on any throws of anybody in the country. That remains the case. I think we. I think they'll lean into it.

[Bill Landis]

I. I agree with you. Let me ask you this, like, because clearly that's what they're going to want to do in the actual playoff. So is this. Let's sharpen that part of our game, because we're not going to play for three weeks after this, or is it. Let's see if we can't hold some stuff back because we want to save it for the playoff. Knowing, like, you want to win a Big Ten title, obviously you want to remain undefeated, but like this, the stakes of it don't derail your season.

[Doug Lemarise]

Sharpen. I'd say sharp.

[Bill Landis]

I say sharpen, too.

[Doug Lemarise]

And if it's one of those, I do think this. If they do to Indiana, and I don't think they will, but if they do to Indiana what they did to Oregon in the first half of the Rose bowl last year, then I think Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith won't play in the second half.

[Bill Landis]

That's true.

[Doug Lemarise]

So, like. Like, get out, let it rip, and if it goes great, it's 28, nothing. Maybe then you shut it down. Right. So, like that. Which, again, I don't think it will be, but I think you. I think they got to go out and take shots because I think they proved them. Certainly the offensive line proved something last week, and I think over the course of the last month, the run game has proven something. And now it's just like, we know we can do this, but let's pull it out, sharpen it up, put it back in the sheath, and then, like, we'll be good to go in a month. But especially given that those guys have been hurt and, you know, you want to be smart, but I think you want to take shots.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think they will take shots. Yeah. And I. I'll. I'll. I would like to see them take shots to someone, like, who isn't Carnell Tate, just to, like, see what it looks like. See if they can't find somebody else to step up there, because he's been by far their most consistent guy down the field, and he's great. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but, like, if they can get, like, Max Claire going down the field, because they've had opportunities to do that and not taking them. If they can get him going downfield, I think that would do a lot for their offense moving forward. Yeah. Okay.

[Doug Lemarise]

You good on your side?

[Bill Landis]

I think I'm good, yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

All right. Like, subscribe. Tell a friend about the Bill and Doug Show. If you're. If you're here watching on YouTube and you're not subscribed, just get subscribed so you don't miss anything.

[Bill Landis]

Can I give some recruiting news while we're talking?

[Doug Lemarise]

Give us a thumbs up. Oh, is there still recruiting happening?

[Bill Landis]

What is it? Yeah, well, While Ohio State is waiting on things to happen, Jacquia and Guilford will sign with Ohio State.

[Doug Lemarise]

Oh, so one left. I gotta go update the tracker on our substack Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com I also wrote a piece about Julian Saying and Fernando Mendoza and the Heisman race and tried to look back at the last 11 Heisman races in the playoff era and like, how did it really break down? How often did championship weekend really matter? Can I get your opinion like really quick on this?

Because I sort of made a point and like in the end there's like kind of, there's a little caveat of like, I think this is going to determine the Heisman winner, Julian Saying versus Fernando Mendoza. But if you look at the odds right now, Diego Pavia is in between them. Mendoza is the favorite. Pavia's right there and then Saying is slightly behind them. So it's kind of like a three man race. And I had said, okay, I, I really think if it's the winning court, I think the lose, I think the losing quarterback can't win. I think if the winning quarterback has kind of a mid game and the defense is the reason that a team wins and like Pavia's sitting right there. He runs much more than either of these guys. Like, his passing stats are similar. Vanderbilt's 10 and 2, they're a great story, but I feel like Pavia is waiting in the wings and if the winning quarterback has an average game. Now if you look at the history of Heisman winners in this era, like there's a bunch of great games all over the place and then you win the Heisman, not surprisingly, but I did 2023, Michael Penix and Bo Nix. Washington and Oregon go at each other in the Pac12 title game. Michael Penix ends up finishing second. Bo Nicks finishes third. Washington beats Oregon in that game. Penix is good in that game. Pennix like throws for 300 yards in that game and is good. And Jaden Daniels for lsu, who's sitting home still wins. And Pennix, if Pennix had thrown for 500, I think maybe he would have won. Like he was really good in that game.

But then it's, it did get me thinking a little bit of like, is there enough of a southern block that's just like, screw those northern guys. I'm voting for Diego Pavia. He's the official candidate of the sec and everybody in the South's going to vote for him and that's going to happen because I would say I don't think Pavia is Daniels. Pavia is not going to be the number two pick in the draft. Pavia, like, has good running stats, but Daniels are ridiculous. Daniels was much closer to Lamar Jackson than what Pavia is. So like, in that circumstance, all right, he's a special kind of talent. Even though his team went nine and three, we're going to give him the Heisman. And even though this game, this guy bald out in a conference championship game, he's going to finish second. Do you think that, like, there's a Southern block that could hand this thing to Pavia?

[Bill Landis]

I think there's a Southern block that's gonna. Yeah. Have him sort of right in the thick of it. Yes, I do think that's possible. I'm just looking to see.

Pavia's got 2036 total touchdowns.

[Doug Lemarise]

850 and like singing runs for none and Fernando Mendoza's run for like 200. Their passing stats are otherwise pretty similar.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, Daniels had 50 touchdowns that year.

[Doug Lemarise]

So to me, Diego Pavi is not Jaden Daniels.

[Bill Landis]

Correct. I agree with that. Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

I don't think that's offensive to say.

[Bill Landis]

I think that's correct. Yeah. One of those guys is an NFL starter and the other won't be.

Yeah. But I do think, I think, I think it is, it is definitely possible that a Southern voting block gets Pavia there no matter what. Now, like, it's Vanderbilt. It's not LSU or Alabama or Georgia or Tennessee or whatever SEC blue blood you'd like to throw out there.

And he's a transfer. He's not like a born and bred in the south kind of dude. So like, I don't know, I don't know if that. That matters because I do think, I. I wonder if like among. I don't know the right way.

[Doug Lemarise]

Daniels was a transfer too.

[Bill Landis]

He was, but I wonder, but he was at lsu. Is there, is there anything like the Southern football aristocracy turning its nose up at Vanderbilt suddenly being an upstart program? Maybe, maybe they don't want to put their quarterback there, but no, I think, I think he'll be one on a lot of. Of Southern ballots. I think.

I think kind of where I land is perhaps that Mendoza, Mendoza can sort of just be like good and win the game and win the Heisman, saying might have to win and like be awesome to win the Heisman.

[Doug Lemarise]

Given his current positioning.

Stats are better. Like they have basically the same number of passing touchdowns. They have the same number of interceptions. They both have five. Saiyan's completion percentage is better. Saying it's thrown for more yards.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, well, we know what it is. I'm not saying that's right. But like I was look, I looked earlier today because if the knock on saying, well, there's two, right. He plays Jeremiah Smith and Cardinal Tate and he has yet to take a snap while trailing in the second half.

But like, it's not like Mendoza has a lot that the guy with the second fewest passing attempts trailing in the second half is Fernando Mendoza. And the only reason he has them is because he threw awful interceptions.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

In the fourth quarter against Oregon, I guess. And Oregon, they didn't trail, but he threw an awful interception against Oregon to tie the game at 20 in the fourth quarter. And he threw an awful interception against Penn State that gave Penn State the ball and a chance to take the lead. It's like, I don't. Manufacturing your own adversity is ridiculous to me. Like, I don't understand why that is a plus in his camp. And Julian Saying doesn't get any credit for playing better than him over the course of the season.

[Doug Lemarise]

And he threw an awful interception against Iowa to set up the go ahead field goal for Iowa. And Iowa, land of punters and kickers. They missed a 42 yard field goal. It would have given him the lead. Yeah, so. So we'll get into him now, but I just like. So. So if you wanna. I did all the research of the 11 years. Like, how often was the Heisman locked up? How often did it come down to championship weekend? There's one, I think, kind of pretty direct comparison to this kind of thing. It doesn't happen often that maybe the Heisman contenders are going head to head, but I think it's happened at least once. I still would make a case that conference championship weekend, when it's close, is what decides it. And I can give you examples of all the times that guys were close and one guy played and one guy sat and that was it. And if you had flipped them, you would have had a different Heisman winner. So go read that. Go be a subscriber at the sub stack and you can read that story. All right, let's talk about the other side of the ball. You said you like to lay it down. I. I don't lay it down as much. So, like.

What do you. Oh, you. Well, give me the same.

[Bill Landis]

The same stats I ran through. I have it. I have it for this. This side of the wall too.

[Doug Lemarise]

Oh, lay it down for me.

[Bill Landis]

Let me just make sure. This is Ohio State defense, Indiana offense, State, Ohio State scoring. Defense first, 7.8 points per game. Nine touchdowns in 12 games, which is ridiculous.

[Doug Lemarise]

Three of those. Three of those against the backups.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Indiana scoring offense second, 44.3 points per game, yards per play. Indiana is sixth. Ohio State defense is first. Third down, Indiana is second. Ohio State's defense is third. Red zone touchdown percentage. Indiana offense for. Or excuse me, seventh. Ohio State defense second.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay, and then there's a little. There's a fancy little stat that I do have for you later that I want to throw out there. All Big Ten making it first team for at least one of the meteor coaches. Six defensive players for Ohio State, Kate McDonald, defensive tackle Arvell Reese and Sunny Styles at linebacker, Caleb Downs at safety, Kaden Curry at defensive end and Davison Igbos in that corner. Third team, Jermaine Matthews at corner, Jalen McLean at safety for Indiana offense. Fernando Mendoza was the first team quarterback. Carter Smith was the first team left tackle. Both their receivers were second team. Elijah Surat and Omar Cooper Jr. Raleigh Nowakowski, their tight end was second team which actually surprised me a little bit. Just like based on. They don't throw to him a ton, but he made a huge cash really against Penn State. I think he might be a well rounded tight end overall. And Roman Hemby, their running back was third team. So again that's eight guys on Ohio State's defense who made one of the teams and it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 guys on Indiana's offense.

You talked about the third down thing. Can I guess. Can I just give you this for a tiny little scooch here? Indiana on fourth down, seven of 15. 109th in the nation, 47%.

[Bill Landis]

That's interesting. I didn't look into this, but when I talked to Taylor for the show he put up Thursday morning, he said Indiana's had some issues in short yardage this year.

[Doug Lemarise]

They against Iowa got stopped on two fourth and ones where Iowa penetrated into the backfield and tackled guys before they got back to the line of scrimmage. And then they had another one against Penn State that was right at the marker on a fourth and one run that I think they got by a quarter inch. So. So they like, they don't go for it a ton but they've had fourth down situations in key spots and not made it. Ohio State's fourth down defense, seventh in the nation. They're allowed 35 fourth down conversions, nine of 26. So.

Keep it in your back pocket.

[Bill Landis]

Seems like God for it. On fourth down 26 times against this defense desperate?

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think you go for it on fourth down for two reasons. One is like, you think these guys can't stop us. And one is like, what else are we gonna do? Yeah, you're desperate. You know, like, we've never been this close to a first down all game. We're only a yard away. We gotta try to do it. So. All right, offensive line. We'll start with the Indiana offensive line.

They have, I think, three. Is this right? Two. Three of the same guys from last year who, who played at Ohio State. And when Kurt Signetti this week talked about.

You know, what the difference was, maybe it's only two of them. Actually, it is only two of them. It's two. So it's left tackle Carter Smith and it's right guard Bray lynch because Drew Evans was a left guard last year, but he was hurt last year just like he is hurt now. Although I people think he's going to play against Ohio State. So. Kurt Signetti brought up two things when he talked about the Ohio State loss last year in Ohio Stadium. One is the special teams mishaps. They gave up a punt for a touchdown. They had a punt blocked. And the other is they couldn't protect the quarterback. And that was just an avalanche. Landis of. They couldn't get the. They couldn't do the silent count. They could barely get the ball snapped. They couldn't block them. And I think last year, as you've noted, that game was maybe closer early and closer at halftime than maybe in people's heads. And the special teams really help swing it. But also one of the main takeaways is like Indiana's offensive line just didn't give him a chance. Is that a fair assessment?

[Bill Landis]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Both in communication and just sort of like individual matchups. Couldn't. Couldn't really handle it.

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[Doug Lemarise]

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[Bill Landis]

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[Doug Lemarise]

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[Bill Landis]

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[Doug Lemarise]

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[Doug Lemarise]

No offense to our former guy, Mike Katic, who we love and had on our old show multiple times and now as a superstar at barstool. And best of luck to Mike Kick. But they're better. So they are better up front. Let me run through the offensive line and get your opinion on this. Carter Smith, left tackle, first team all Big Ten. Has only given up five pressures all year. Like, very good. Yes.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Excellent.

[Doug Lemarise]

So left tackle, excellent. Pat Coogan, the center, has only given up seven pressures. The transfer from Notre Dame, started at Notre Dame last year after an injury, is like a veteran guy who's played in big games, played Ohio State, the national championship game last year. Pat Coogan, very good.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, Pat Coogan. So I think, like, their left tackle in their center are really quite good. Left guard Drew Evans has not played since Week 9, but he did dress against Purdue last week, and he wasn't on the injury report. And I think people maybe thought he was going to play. And then it just sort of feels like maybe Taylor talked about this. It sort of feels like he could have played. They didn't play him because it's Purdue and they want him to really be ready for the Big Ten championship game. That would be a big deal to get him back. He's given up four pressures in nine games. Like, he's pretty darn good when he plays. Do you think. Did Taylor say anything about him playing? And do you think he's pretty good?

[Bill Landis]

I do think he's good. I think he, like, pulling him out has really caused some issues for Indiana's offensive line because otherwise, like, the other guard spot's not great and the guy who has to play for him might be like, Zen Mahalski, maybe. So.

Yeah, I do think he's good. I don't. I don't know what his status is. I think there was a hope they can get a full game out of him.

[Doug Lemarise]

I think you have to anticipate that he's going to play because they held him out last week. So, like, that's left tackle, left guard, center, pretty good. Bray lynch, the right guard returning starter, giving up 13 pressures this year. I think it's like, okay, is that like, like, like not great. I don't think he's awful, but like, yes.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think that is fair. Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

And then Khalil Benson has been the right tackle. He's been dealing with some injury stuff. He only played like half the game against Purdue last week. He's a guy who was at Indiana, transferred away last year, went to Colorado and then was like, oh my God, Indiana's good and came back to Indiana. So he's been the right tackle. He's given up 21 pressures this year and 15 of the pressures he gave up were against Iowa, Oregon and Penn State. Against good defenses, he's gotten blitzed and he's dealing with an injury. And I think this is the weak link and I think he's going to play. But if he doesn't play, Zen Mahalski, the Ohio State transfer, I think would be the next guy up there. He's the one who started, I think, last week against Purdue. Either way, I think right tackle is the weak spot for Indiana.

[Bill Landis]

I agree. I think that's where, whether it's Kenyatta Jackson or Kaden Curry or Arvell Reese, they're going to find themselves in some favorable matchups over that spot.

[Doug Lemarise]

I agree. So keep that in mind. Watch for the Ohio State guys who are lining up over the right tackle. But in general, if your opinion last year of Indiana was like, these guys can't block, this is no problem for Ohio State. They're better, they're, they're, I think, better as a unit and I think it will make. The way they talked about it last year is just. The Ohio State crowd made them non functional. And then we had Mike kick on our old show and Mike Kiddick was like, man, like, it was just like we couldn't believe it. For all the times that I've questioned Ohio State's home field advantage, Indiana's offensive line made it sound like they couldn't play. So this is going to be, I, I'm a little curious about this is if it's just. Is it going to feel like both teams are on the road, that it's just going to be loud when every offense is on the field and you are going to have to deal with it in the dome. I don't know how it'll work out, but at least they're not actually in Ohio Stadium.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I don't know. There's sort of just like, like a din in that stadium anyway that like regardless of who's home, who's away, which fan base has the most people in there just because, like Noise is sort of, it goes throughout the game but then like the, it's going to be at the very least like 50, 50, but it could be more like a pro Indiana crowd. I think it'll be pretty well split if I'm being honest. But I think it's just going to be loud the whole game. And Ohio State has lived in that world, right? Like Ohio State played on the silent count last week against Michigan. Ohio State had to play on a silent count against Texas in the Cotton bowl last year because that was a road game. So I don't know how much of an impact it'll have on Ohio State.

And it like it's something that carries over from last year for this matchup. Sure. But like they want Indiana want the autumn and dealt with that noise and was fine. So like I, I, it almost felt to me like I actually wonder how much they even practice on a silent count. Like, or like had one prepared going into the Ohio State game last year because Ohio Stadium doesn't really have that reputation. But then it was really loud. Like it was probably, it was surprisingly loud for that game because Indiana was top five and everyone wanted to see Sig put in his place. So even I was like, sort of like, man, this place is kind of jumping for this game. So I think Indiana might have got caught a little off guard by that and that that won't happen again. Okay.

[Doug Lemarise]

So I really just, so let me State for the record. Ohio State's defense is great. They have all Americans all over the field. So like we, I last week when we did the Ohio State Michigan breakdown on this side, I just really wanted to make sure we talked a lot about the Ohio State defensive guys because I didn't want to overlook them. And I thought maybe Arvell Reese was like going to light it up last week and it feels like they still played it like a little let's float in coverage, let's menace and drop off. Like they didn't dial it up. I want to get to the dial it up conversation, but I want to run through the rest of this Indiana personnel because we got to get to Fernando Mendoza. So very quickly. Running back Roman Hemby and Kalon Black, they're two headed monster running back together they average 24 carries for 133 yards per game. They have 27 runs of 20 yards or more. That's sixth in the power conference. So like they don't have a million runs of like 50 yards, but they'll pop some stuff. Ohio State by comparison has 11 carry 11 runs of 20 yards or more this year. So Ohio State 11, Indiana 27. I think the backs are good and the run game is good. I don't think Hemby and Black are the kind of thing you have to build your defensive game plan around, but they are quite a compliment when your quarterback is a first round pick.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I have. I think that's right. I, I couldn't help but notice that Indiana's rushing efficiency takes a pretty drastic dip when they play good defenses.

[Doug Lemarise]

I think that's right. I think like they are good enough to run it on overmatched teams, but I don't think it is a dominant run game against the best defenses in the country.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, but they still need to run it because they're so heavy. They're, they're like, I think the heaviest RPO team in the country. So, like they're gonna try to run it because it's just a fundamental part of what they want to do, throwing the ball. But yeah, it's not a kind of rushing attack I would be scared of. I don't, I don't think.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay, tight end Riley. Now Kowski, as we talked about, second team, all Big Ten, they're not in 12 personnel very much. He has 23 catches on 26 targets. He's never had more than four targets in game. He's a check down guy. He caught a really big pass down the seam against Penn State. Like he'll make a play here or there. He's, he plays a ton of snaps. He's the starting tight end. The next tight end does not play very much. Like he's a fine Big Ten tight end. He's not his guy. That's scares you. I don't think the receivers are good. Omar Cooper Jr. And Elijah Surratt, both second team, all Big Ten. Omar Cooper averages 67 yards per game. Elijah Surratt averages 65. But in the first seven games of the year before he got hurt, Elijah Surratt was averaging 86 receiving yards per game. And he had three games with at least eight catches. And I think he got a hamstring and he's just kind of been off. He's been out. And then he came back against Purdue last week and like, didn't do a ton. It, it's just, it's a similar, just receiver injuries across the Big Ten this year. Ohio State, Oregon, Indiana, like all the best teams, they have these great receivers and they're hurt. I think you have to anticipate 100% Elijah Surat on Saturday, given that he did come back against Purdue last week and played a pretty solid amount, played like two thirds of the snaps and he I think seemed fine. So I think you get the full Elijah Surratt and then I think the full Elijah Surratt. Bill is one of the best receivers in the country.

[Bill Landis]

He is one of the best receivers in the country and this is the best collection of receivers Ohio State will have played. Jaylen McLean said that. That's not me saying that. Jayla McLean said that on Wednesday night. Okay. Without hesitation. This is the best group of receivers they've played.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay, so Omar Cooper jr is the guy who made the amazing Gus Johnson lost his voice catch against Penn state. Really good. E.J. williams, Charlie Becker, third and fourth receivers. They'll have three receivers on the field a lot. Charlie Becker kind of wasn't doing anything and then when Surratt was hurt, Becker stepped up, had a hundred yard game against Penn State, made a huge catch on the sideline. Then E.J. williams is like a good number three receiver. So like they have four guys they can count on. Like frankly like I don't like I their fourth receivers better than Ohio State's fourth receiver. At least from what we've seen. Like this is pretty good receiver depth.

[Bill Landis]

You know it is pretty good. Good size too. Becker and Williams are both like six four, right?

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. Like when Indiana needed their fourth receiver to play because one of their starters was hurt. He's a six four guy who had had eight catches I think the whole season and had 100 yard game against Penn State when when Ohio State needed their guys to play against Rutgers is like they didn't have anybody. So like just like it's understand that there this is a real receiver group and this is where the strength of the team is. But it's about Fernando Mendoza and let me run through for you years of starting experience for the power four conference quarterbacks that Ohio State has faced this year. Arch Manning, first year starter for Texas Daman Williams, Washington, first year starter Drake Lindsay, Minnesota first year starter Luke Altmire, Illinois, third year starter, Wisconsin Hunter Simmons like started three games at Northern Illinois last year, but basically a first year starter. Penn State. Ethan Gronkmeyer, first year starter, Purdue. Ryan Brown started two games last year I think, but really a first year starter. UCLA they didn't get Nico so they got the backup guy who was making his first career start. Rutgers. Ethan Kellyak Manis, third year starter. Bryce Underwood, first year starter. So this is Fernando Mendoza, he's a third year starter, two years at Cal. This will be his 32nd career start. The only guys who are close in terms of experience that Ohio State faced this year were Luke Altmeyer and Ethan Kaliak. Manis and Luke Altmire had a little stretch there in the second half where they got a little something going. As people will remember. Luke Altmeyer started 5 for 11 as Ohio State got up 20 to nothing. And then they had an 11 play drive for 69 yards. They had a 12 play drive for 75 yards. And Illinois started moving the ball and they made it 20 to 10 and it was like that was the thing. Brett Bielema after the game was like, oh, we had him on their heels. I got up tempo a little bit. They let the veteran quarterback sort of like call the plays at the line and go, go, go. Right so.

And they threw it. Devin, that's a good point. It is a reminder. It doesn't mean that Ohio State can't defend veteran quarterbacks. It's just a reminder that Matt Patricia, NFL mind with the smartest collection of on field defenders that you'll find, have been playing with house money against a bunch of young guys this year. And that's not the case on Saturday.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think that's, that's right. And I listen like Mendoza will make some wild throws at times. He's not, he's not yet an NFL quarterback, but he will be. And I just think like it's, it just ups the degree of difficulty, I think pretty pretty significantly for Ohio State. Just like that, that, that cat and mouse game of like disguising coverages and stuff is what we're talking about. Like I think Mendoza, because not only does he have whatever 30 starts, but he's just been in college for a long time and is probably better like at studying defenses and during the week than a lot of these young quarterbacks that Ohio State has faced. So I think Patricia will have something for him schematically maybe that the High State hasn't shown a lot of this year and won't make it easy on him. Like they're not gonna. There was a stretch in the middle of the season where Ohio State was just like, we're gonna play cover three and there's not really much you can do about it. That will not be this game. But there's enough there for Ohio State to get to. But it'll be really fun to watch that back and forth and obviously who ultimately wins.

That, that battle. Because it was funny to me, like Bryce Underwood said on Fox, I think I mentioned it's like it's me versus Matt Patricia. And it's like, well, not really. You're not ready for that. But I think Mendoza might be like. And it's not to say he's going to get the better of it, but I think he'll, he'll be as prepared for this as any quarterback that Ohio State has played so far.

[Doug Lemarise]

And just a reminder for everybody, people think he's going to be the number one pick in the draft. So if, if, you know, you're welcome to think whatever you think about this guy or what, who Indiana has played or hasn't played. NFL draft analysts think he might be the number one pick in the draft. Now, I think that is slightly reflective of the quarterback crop, but, like, that's where we are. So that's who Fernando Mendoza is and he's a veteran and everything. Julian sand talked about it, Ryan Day talked about it. Smart, accurate, good decision maker, all those things, right? He's also a little scooty. Like, the numbers aren't huge, but he, if you get after him on third down, he's had against good defenses and big moments, he'll run for a first down on third down much more than Julian Sanders will. He's a, he's a, he is a more natural athlete than Julian, saying he will get out and go and he will make big plays with his legs when necessary. He had a play against Penn State when he was like leading stuff down at the end where he got out of the pocket, looked like he was going to run on third down, and then threw a sidearm pass in the red zone for a first down. That was like, what was that like? That's, that was, it was amazing.

But here's my question. In that game, so in that game, like they, they blitzed him, for instance, guess what? Happy Blitzmore blitzed him in the red zone. But then he made this amazing play and they kept blitzing him and I think two plays after that they blitzed him and he got sacked. And then on third down, they blitzed him again and they flushed him out of the pocket and he had to show throw short of the sticks. So he made this amazing third down escape and sidearm throw in the red zone to get a first down. But Penn State kept blitzing.

This season, according to PFF, how often he's been blitzed in games. Illinois blitzed him 41. He was really good against it. Iowa, according to PFF, blitzed him 67% of the time.

[Bill Landis]

Bill, that's a lot of blitzing for Iowa.

[Doug Lemarise]

He was not great against the blitz. Oregon blitzed him 41 of the time and he wasn't great. Ucla blitzed him 60% of the time. He was pretty good. Penn state blitz him 50 of the time. He was okay last week. Purdue blitzed him 56 of the time and he was not that good overall. He's been blitzed 46 of the time this year. According to PFF quarterbacks against the blitz, their offensive rating against the blitz. Number one is Diego Pavia from Vanderbilt. Number two is Julian saying he's been number one most of the year against the blitz. Fernando Mendoza is 18th.

When he's not blitzed. Best quarterback against when you're not blitzed. Number one Julian saying number four Fernando Mendoza. So when he's not blitzed he's four. When he is blitzed he's 18. PFF also has like the NFL QBR rating.

When you're blitzed by the QBR rating. Julian saying 1 Fernando Mendoza 4 so much better than 18 when you're not blitzed. Fernando Mendoza 1 Julian saying 2 There are examples of this bill of people lighting him up, just getting after him. They beat Iowa on a quick slant against zero coverage where Iowa brought seven.

From midfield. On third and 10 with a minute 53 left they brought seven. Indiana had seven guys in the block. He got the ball out on a quick slant to Elijah Surratt. Surratt broke one tackle, there was no safety there and Indiana won. He also made a throw against Iowa where they brought both linebackers up the middle. One got through and hit Fernando Mendoza in the face and he ripped a 30 yard ball down the seam. There are also plays where he got blitzed and got hit as he was throwing and threw a pick against Iowa that should have lost him the game. He makes some goofy throws sometimes because I think he believes in himself so much. Yeah, so he will make giant throws against the blitz but he will also make mistakes and there are some of the best defenses that he's faced have lit him up over and over again and have been willing to take the risk. Ask because they think there is some reward in it. Do you think Ohio State should and will blitz Fernando Mendoza?

[Bill Landis]

I don't know. I thought they were going to blitz Bryce Underwood and they didn't.

Really but they did not do that because it was evident. Maybe they wouldn't have to. They just sort of like had the game controlled and that's maybe that's why the blitz percentage ended up being lower. I wasn't tracking like if they blitzed them earlier then pulled back I, I don't know but if you look at the games before that, I actually think. Tell me if you disagree with this and I don't want to sound silly when I say it but like the, the, the offense that Ohio State has played that maybe might, might be like most similar to Indiana is Rutgers. I don't think there's good. But this sort of like stylistically a bunch of receivers, strong arms. Yeah. Like kind of, kind of cocky at times. Quarterback, like a veteran QB wants to hang in there and let it rip. They blitz them a lot. Like a ton for. By Ohio State standards or it's also hard to tell on pff sometimes. Like is it actually a blitz or is it simulated pressure? Like whatever they were, they were trying to get after them.

So like I, like I, I think yes, my answer is yes, but. But my answer was also yes last week and I was wrong. That's the only thing that gives me some hesitancy. But I would, I would try, I would try it like to see maybe if he won't throw you the ball a time or two and maybe you can get a couple turnovers, maybe you get a defensive score because they're just like, especially against these like very good defense. He's just like he, he feels for a guy who is as highly regarded as he is, he feels a little loose to me at times when he's playing against very good defenses.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yes, he's smart, he's accurate.

It is difficult because he's not at all a statue. So some of these like quarterbacks who they haven't blitzed. Aman Williams Jr. Bryce Underwood is like, you don't blitz. They didn't need to blitz a young guy because they wanted to keep him in the pocket. They didn't want to let him run. And then they were like, try to diagnose this. And we think you can'. So we don't have to blitz you. If he will, he will escape. So if he was just, you know, Drake Lindsay at Minnesota, it's like you can get after. That guy's not going to go anywhere. Mendoza will run, but I think if you sit back, he might pick you apart. Now can they get enough four man pressure where they don't have to blitz? Like the blitz is named. Where's number eight? Wouldn't that be a good nickname? That'd be confusing for the announcers. But if you just nicknamed an individual player the Blitz, it's like, are you gonna blitz Indiana? It's like, what do you mean? Are we going to bring more Than four? Or are we just going to bring Arvell Reese who's known as the Blitz Classic. Good name.

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[Doug Lemarise]

Wood thrush, three o'. Clock.

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[Bill Landis]

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[Doug Lemarise]

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[Bill Landis]

Who knew?

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay, Was that you or the birds?

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[Doug Lemarise]

Because they haven't been doing that either. Like I did this, I did an 11 minute presentation last week about how they've been letting Arvell Reese just kind of float around for a month and they're going to unleash him. Against Michigan, they kind of floated around again. They didn't need to unleash him. So now do they have that?

[Bill Landis]

He did have that two play sequence where.

What he like strung out a run and they had a five yard loss and then just like annihilated a running back on a screenplay and it's like this drive stop was brought to you by Arvel Reese.

[Doug Lemarise]

He annihilated a running back because he wasn't rushing the pass.

[Bill Landis]

Dropped out in zone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

He was dropped out zone in the middle of the defense and then he triggered like teach tape and and rip the man in half.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

So. But I think you have to pressure Mendoza. I think you have to try. So maybe you believe in Kaden Curry and Kenyatta Jackson and Kate McDonald Norvell Reese enough that you don't actually have to blitz. But I think you have to try to speed him up and get after him and try to force him into a couple mistakes. He's great. Do not question how good Fernando Mendoza is. There are times when he looks like an NFL quarterback. You said he's not and he's not. But there are times when he's just like managing things and making 21 yard throws with no hesitation and like putting things in the Exact right spot and reading defenses where it's like, I can see why this guy's going to be the number one pick in the draft. But also Penn State, an interception in three sacks and they had to come back because they should have lost. Wisconsin, five sacks. Purdue last week, no sacks, but he was 8 of 15 for 117 yards. Now I guess they were powering down as Purdue. They weren't that worried. But for as good as he's been and that he's the Heisman favorite right now, he's also like, he's has moments, he has some big play. Oh, Heisman moment. He has some of those. But then he also has more.

Negative plays. He's only thrown five picks all year because we can't pretend that he's like just chucking the ball around. But he has nine turnover worthy plays, saying has five. So it's still pretty under control. But taking five sacks against Wisconsin, you know, and again, credit to Wisconsin defensive line, I get it. But it's like, I just think this to me is the thing that I came away the most interested in. Ohio State's defense is great. I think they have to. They've been a sit back and make a team, try to pick them apart kind of defense. And I think that's not the plan this game because Fernando Mendoza is the guy who might be able to pick you apart no matter how good you are. So you have these great athletes and you have a smart defensive coordinator. Let's dial it up and try to light this guy up. I think that's going to be the plan.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I think, I think you're probably right. I want to look and see. So you said it was the Wisconsin game.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

You took how many sacks?

[Doug Lemarise]

Five.

[Bill Landis]

Like.

[Doug Lemarise]

Blissed him 35 of the time. And he was pretty good. Had good numbers against the blitz, but still took five sacks.

[Bill Landis]

I thought the Wisconsin game for Ohio State was like Julian Saiyan's best game in terms of like sack avoidance because he was pressured, he was pressuring. That was a bad offensive line game for. I said he got pressured a lot.

And maybe got sacked once or twice, but also was like moving the pocket, throwing off platform. Just like not the pressure didn't derail the offense. I mean it slowed the offense down some but like he wasn't, he wasn't getting hit and they're getting sacked that one much. So like, yes, Mendoza runs more. But I wonder if saying might actually be a little bit better, like kind of moving in the pocket to avoid this. Like I watching, watching Mendoza scramble. It's like there was one against Oregon. I think it was against Oregon where, like, it almost looked like a QB draw, but it wasn't. It was just like he dropped back in the middle, just parted so he just ran right down the middle. It's like, that's a scramble. It's on a design run.

And I think some more of the scrambles, like, he's not like, standing there dropping the ball, like, shaking a guy out of his shoes and then scrambling, right? It's like if there's a lane, there's a lane. If there's not, he's probably got to stand there and try to make a throw, and that's when he seems to get himself in trouble. So I, again, I, I would certainly try it. I, I guess there's. I think Indiana's offensive line is definitely improved. I still, I think it's improved for merely like a below average Big Ten line to probably like a pretty good one, but not a great one.

So it could be a case where Ohio State is able to generate pressure with like, it's, it's four defensive linemen and maybe they don't have the blitz. But I, I would certainly be trying to put pressure on Mendoza. I, I don't think I would use, like, the, the plan. It seemed like Ohio State used against Arch Manning, which is like, our disguise is just going to confuse the hell out of this kid. And it doesn't matter what we do up front. I, I think, I think if you give Mendoza time to, like, sit back there, he'll figure out where the ball's supposed to go, so why not try to heat him up?

[Doug Lemarise]

So did I mention this? That, that game against Illinois where Altmeyer and the Illini offense had two consecutive scoring drives where they marched down the field more than 10 plays. The next drive.

Matt Patricia dialed up a slot blitz from Jermaine Matthews or like the second or third play, and he got to Altmeyer and knocked the ball out and Kaden Curry recovered it for a turnover. So that, to me was a moment of where you had a veteran quarterback who was starting to do his thing a little bit. Then they dialed something up and it worked. So I think going into this game, they should anticipate that. Anticipate that. If you let Fernando Mendoza sit back there, he's going to Engineer A couple 10 play drives. So get to that point now, because maybe against Altmeyer. Weren't exactly sure. I think Altmeyer. Altmeyer and that passing attack, Hank Beatty, like, it's, it's a It's a decent like I think the Rutgers passing attack, as it turned out, I thought Rutgers might move the ball a little bit against Ohio State. They didn't do anything. They don't know but like 8th and Calak man is as good as good numbers as those Rutgers receivers have. And there's some guys on there who are going to get drafted. Like there's some real guys, but they might be more like the sixth grade version of the Indiana offense and maybe Altmeyer with Hank Beatty and a couple things. Maybe they're more like the 8th grade version of the Indiana offense and then Indiana is like the real deal.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

So.

I think this is the number one thing that I am most curious about. Curious about. And so like to run through the Ohio State defensive players. They're awesome. So. And can we just give the, the. We talked about it, I think on our Sunday show when we ran through kind of the Ohio State Michigan game and discuss everything that happened. But some of the early Michigan runs could have been bigger runs if not for Jalen McClain, who is sure, I think definitively the most underrated player on Ohio State's team just because he's surrounded by all Americans on defense and he is just a first year starter who is pretty excellent at his job. Please relay the conversation that you had with Jalen McLean.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I said first I asked him, I said, what's it take to like stay patient on those plays to make sure you're not taking yourself out of position when you're sort of the last line of defense? And he said something along the lines of I have the fate of the program and the fate of Buckeye Nation on my back. I'm not going to let that happen.

And then I said, did you get any extra shout outs like in meetings or film review or whatever for basically saving three touchdowns? And he said, that's my job. I don't need shout outs. I said, okay.

[Doug Lemarise]

You just sold 10 McLean jerseys. I mean like forget Roback. Like that's an advertisement for Jalen McLean. That dude's know what, he knows what's up, man.

[Bill Landis]

He is. There's a, a seriousness about him that is shocking because he's a true, true sophomore. But like makes him, makes him great. Right? He's just, he's just about it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Caleb Jr. Okay. He's gonna be running that defense next year.

[Bill Landis]

Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

So like for Ohio State, I, there's. Everyone knows this. I don't have to spend 20 minutes on this. There's not a particular weakness. So can Jermaine Matthews and David Sineg. Big Nosen cover. Omar Cooper Jr. And Elijah Surratt. Yes, they can. Now, did they have. Are they getting a little handsy? Yes, that's.

[Bill Landis]

That's something for this game.

[Doug Lemarise]

I'm not so sure that they are that much more handsy than they've been because again, I think the handiness, it's straight line handiness, which is so different to me than out of break handsiness or I got beat and you're running by me handiness. They are running stride for stride with receivers and grabbing them, and they've gotten away with that a lot this year. They are very physical. They have their hands all over guys all the time. And a lot of the time they get away with it because it's not that. It's not a jersey pole. Right. It's just physicality during the route and at the catch point. And then they got called a couple times last week. So, like, I'll be. I think it's a little bit on how it's officiated. I'm not saying that I. I don't know how it should be officiated. Right. But I'm just saying I. I don't think all of a sudden last week they started playing differently. I think they started getting called differently. So they just have to be aware of that and adjust. But the other thing is here too, I felt like last year with Curtis Rourke, the Indiana quarterback, it was all about back shoulder, back shoulder, back, shoulder. Like, watch the back shoulder throws. That's all we talked about before the Ohio State, Indiana matchup last year. And they'll still do that. But really, Ryan Day mentioned that. You mentioned it. Right. This is rpo. This is the RPO game in the middle of the field, reading, ripping. And I don't know, like, I think Ohio State is as equipped as anybody to deal with that too. But explain how you think Fernando Mendoza, if he is gonna take a defense apart, how's he really do it?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, it's. It's heavy, heavy rpo. And there'll be some. Some hit like outside hitches. Similar to what Ohio State's RPO game is really sort of limited to outside hitches. If there's a big cushion for Jeremiah Smith or Carnell Tate or like those bubble reliefs that are sort of like determined pre snap. Indiana's is a little different. They will throw those hitches and they will throw those bubbles, but they'll try to attack the middle of the field with RPOs too. So I. I think you're Gonna see Kate. Like I think I said this last week, again, it didn't come to fruition, so I could very well be wrong because Michigan does a lot of RPO stuff too. They just didn't really get to it against Ohio State. But I thought we might see the. The Caleb Downs plan of like kind of, kind of sticking him in the middle, like in a level between the linebackers and the safeties to try to kind of take away those middle of the field throws. And I would anticipate seeing him used in that way against Indiana.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

It's just, it's like Michigan does it. Yes, it is like fundamental to Indiana's offense. So I would expect to see that, like Caleb Downs was great last week. Everyone on defense was. But this is a spot where Ohio State's really going to need him. But both against the run, because Indiana likes to run it inside when he. And he'll be in those spots. But like shutting down the RPO game is going to be gigantic for Ohio.

[Doug Lemarise]

I say defense probably not a ton of three linebacker. Right. With as much as.

[Bill Landis]

No, they don't have three receivers in the field. Yeah, yeah, they play. I was looking Taylor again. Taylor Lehman, who I talked to that had like a. Two weeks ago, had like an off season or. Excuse me, an off week, kind of like personnel tendency breakdown. And I think his thing said, like Indiana is like 85, 11 personnel. Like they rarely get into a personnel.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, 11 personnel is three receivers. So like expect to see three receivers in the field. Expect Lorenzo Styles to be in the game for Ohio State.

I have my job. I have no sense.

Of whether this is going to be a defensive battle, a shootout. Yes. It's hard for me to think that anyone's going to get into a shootout with the Ohio State defense, but this is probably the two best defenses in the country. Like not just statistically, but these two are actual.

[Bill Landis]

Like there's.

[Doug Lemarise]

You're right. Texas Tech is way way up there. Texas Tech is way way up there. Two of the four best defenses in the country. And then the offenses are like.

Two of the best eight. Right. So if you want to get into the Vanderbilt offense and the USC offense, but they have. I think both these teams have great quarterbacks.

[Bill Landis]

I would. But I would. I would agree that if. If I had to pick a side of the ball for either of these teams, I'd pick the defense first.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yes. I think they're both defense first. Teams that happen to have Heisman candidate quarterbacks and they both have two great receivers. They're so similar. The quarterbacks are great, the receivers are great, the running game is pretty good, the offensive lines are pretty good. But perhaps you're not like 100% certain in them all the time. And then they have standouts at all three levels of the defense.

[Bill Landis]

So the difference between the two is that Ohio state has like eight first round picks on it and it's top 22. And I don't know that Indiana has any.

[Doug Lemarise]

So I mean, it's no offense to be like, like, they don't quite have a Caleb Downs, they don't quite have a Jeremiah Smith.

Like, that's, that's probably the bigger difference. And that, as you also pointed out, second cornerback spot that Jermaine Matthews and Davis and Igbignosan as a, as a pair, d' Angelo Ponds and the second corner, like, that's probably, that's an edge for Ohio State. But it, it is.

They play great ball. They're very well coached.

[Bill Landis]

They're incredibly welcome. They might, I, I maybe say that they're maybe the best coach team in the country.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah, Indiana, and I think so. And, and don't underestimate the talent. But like the NFL draft will tell the story of the next two years and Ohio State will, will have much, much more there than Indiana, but they play really well together. They all have a chip on their shoulder and, but it's not a bunch of scrappy underdogs. Like, these are really good football players.

[Bill Landis]

They're like, they're really good. They're really good. Yeah. I think you can convince yourself rather easily and understandably so that there's like a huge talent advantage for Ohio State. And there definitely is a talent advantage when you look at the recruiting pedigree at a high school. But then also consider, like, there are a lot of up transfers from, from G6 programs on Indiana's roster still. But this stat, this Indiana staff is I think the best unquestionably in college football at identifying those UP transfers and not missing.

[Doug Lemarise]

And they're incredibly connected because Signetti was talking about that this week, that Mike Shanahan, the offensive coordinator and Brian Haynes, the defensive coordinator have both been with him for more than a decade. The strength guy's been with him forever. I think the special teams guy's been with him a long time. And Ryan Day in losing Brian Hartline this week and Brian Hartline still with the team is going to stay through the end of the season, was talking about stability. Right. And that stability is important. So the stability at Indiana is not at Indiana, but it's stability with the staff that those three guys, the point of the spear with Signetti, Shanahan and Haynes, they know each other inside and out and they've won at every level and their success has gotten them to this point. And that is unusual to be, I think that connected as a staff and the proofs in the pudding. So I think it's a good game. We'll do what you at the end, but first we're going to do our picks. Bill Landis. It's a four and a half point spread. What is your pick for Ohio State? Indiana.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, not a betting show, but Ohio State 10, 1 and 1 against the spread. Indiana 7 and 5. Eight of Ohio State's games have gone under. Seven of Indiana's games have gone over. And there's a push in there too.

I think it. I think it's going to be like a defensive kind of struggle. I. I think I could see like both teams probably punting more than they want to and maybe kind of explosive plays rule the day. And I'll. I'm just gonna trust Ohio State to find more of those against Indiana's defense than I do Indiana to find against Ohio State's defense. So I'm gonna pick Ohio State to cover, but still a pretty close game. I have Ohio State 28 to 20.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay. I had my pick and then you started talking and I changed my pick. And then my pick was going to be basically exactly the same as your pick. So I'll go back to my original pick and I'll say Ohio State 3123.

Which is like, you know, this is.

You scored 20 on Ohio State's defense. Like, that's time to party.

[Bill Landis]

You know, Congratulations, you're the first.

[Doug Lemarise]

So. So like, that is, I think, great respect for the Indiana offense, you know, to, to not. We're not throwing nines and sixes out there, right? But when you have a quarterback like Fernando Mendoza, who. Who is a good decision maker like this, but can still make some plays, he's a decision maker and a playmaker. And like, it's funny, like Ryan Day says, like, you know, I respected his decision making. He'll make some goofy decisions like he's not so far down the line of I have to make the right decision that he's afraid to do stuff. He doesn't play afraid. I don't think he plays afraid at all. Like, I think he. He's actually probably got almost the mix that you want of. There's a foundation of intelligence and decision making and accuracy. There's but then he will get loose. But getting loose is how you make plays that win games.

[Bill Landis]

Yes.

[Doug Lemarise]

So he'll scramble when he needs to. He'll get out of the pocket, make a sidearm throw. He'll try something in a tough spot. So I would. I think that would lead to both potentially some big plays and some of the mistakes on Saturday night. So we'll both take Ohio State minus the points and anticipate a banger of a night for the Big Ten.

[Bill Landis]

Looking forward to it.

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[Doug Lemarise]

Wood thrush, three o'. Clock.

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[Bill Landis]

Oh, man. How about waterproof boots, size 10?

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[Doug Lemarise]

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[Bill Landis]

Who knew?

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay. Was that you or the birds?

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[Doug Lemarise]

What you watching, what you eat and what you think and is brought to you by nobody. But maybe someday it will be brought to you by somebody. Bill Landis. We didn't get to do it on Wednesday. We are back to do it now. What are you watching?

[Bill Landis]

I don't, I don't have a new show or anything like that for anybody. I'm just. And people know I have a young, young child who's gonna turn three here in a little bit. So trying, trying as much as I can to like, expose him to the things that I liked when I was a kid. And, and it's fun because you can like, actually like, stream some. Like, all the stuff I watched on Nickelodeon when I was a kid is like on Paramount plus now, which is like, like kind of cool. We haven't gotten into much of that yet, but it is the holiday season and I have always been a huge fan of, you know, there's like Producers Rank, the Rankin and Bass, like Christmas movies. It's like the little puppets or Whatever. Like Santa Claus is coming to town and you're without a Santa Claus. I love Year Without a Santa Claus. I think it's my favorite Christmas movie. And he and I. He and I sat on the couch and watched it the other night. And it was great. He wasn't paying attention at all. Had no idea what was going on. But he was at least sitting next to me. Yeah. While we watched it. And every now and again would look up and point on the TV and notice that Santa was on the tv. So. Yeah, that. That's what I was watching. It was more. More so for me than it was for him. But it warm. It warmed my heart to sit down with him and watch that. Even if he didn't care. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

No, that's good. Some of the Christmas stuff is as good for that kind of thing as anything you'll find. So you got to lean in.

This is not like the stop motion animation, which is the cool stuff. But there is the one.

It's just regular drawing. It's Frosty the Snowman. And my mother. My mother still brings this up. Frosty melts at one point, right? Frosty melts. Frosty melting is the most dramatic thing. Traumatic thing that ever happened to me. My mom will be like, oh, Doug is a sensitive boy. He cried when Frosty melted. And it's like, yeah, I did. I can feel myself crying as a four year old when Frosty melted. So be careful.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, I need to watch. My mom always told me this story. A Very Brady Christmas premiered the day before I was born.

And like my mom watched A Very Brady Christmas like in the hospital with infant. Infant Bill. So I'm looking forward to watching that with my son at some point.

[Doug Lemarise]

Nice. How big were you? Do you know?

[Bill Landis]

I actually wasn't that big of a baby.

[Doug Lemarise]

No.

[Bill Landis]

Like, I think like average size. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Oh, you never know. I mean, I thought I could have been a 12 pounder. No offense. Just like.

[Bill Landis]

No, no. People, people. People often assume that. But I was not a gigantic baby, just a gigantic adult.

[Doug Lemarise]

So we went and saw Zootopia 2, which is the new Pixar movie. And I do. I thought it was good. I do enjoy movies that are like. They do a lot of world building. So this is like Zootopia is kind of built that way. Then it's like there's different parts of the world for the different animals. And so there's just. There's just a lot of. It's been nine years since the first one came out. So it's like I kind of forgot what Zootopia was about. But there's just a lot of good, like. And then I start to think about, oh, maybe they'll make a theme park area like that they actually have at one of the Disney parks, like in China or Japan. They've made a Zootopia area. So anyway, recommend it. But also it brought up again a thing that I've talked about on various shows with you, which is.

Sexy cartoon animals. So we have discussed. Is it Cosmo the Cougar or Cosmo Cougar who is the BYU mascot?

[Bill Landis]

And I can't remember if there's a there or not, but yeah, but he's hot.

[Doug Lemarise]

He's very seductive. He's got a six pack. He's a cougar who's shaped like a human and he has a cougar face. But he can also get it. So like Cosmo Cougar is like the Cougar.

[Bill Landis]

The Cosmo, the Cougar.

[Doug Lemarise]

Cosmo the Cougar. He can get the it. And so.

The fox in Zootopia, his name is Nick Wild. He is voiced by Jason Bateman. And I'll just. I'll just give her up. My older daughter was like, yeah, Nick Wilde, what's up? And it's interesting because it's Jason Bateman's voice. And Jason Bateman, almost everything he does has this like, very droll delivery. Right? But often because we're accustomed to Jason Bateman and we know what Jason Bateman looks like and he's a handsome guy, he's a movie star. But it's a lot of like, he kind of often sort of plays like a dork that when he's being dry and dry as himself, it's not sexy. It's sort of like, okay, you're the dad, right? That you're telling everybody, oh, great. Now we have to go get in the station wagon, right? Like that kind of thing. But when he's drawn as a fox, that delivery, it's the same delivery, but it hits different. Yeah, it's just like, oh, yeah, now you're sly Jason Bateman. So it's just weird. I don't know if it's weird to be attracted to mascots and cartoon characters, but in my family, we are. What are you gonna do?

[Bill Landis]

They have whole conventions built around that. You're Fine.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay. Fine. Thanks. What are you eating?

[Bill Landis]

Have we ever discussed the. The merits of turkey as a breakfast meat?

[Doug Lemarise]

What?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, it's pretty great. I. I want to give credit where it's due. Berm Burm is the one to put me onto it. But we got a smoked turkey. We got a smoked turkey for Christmas or Christmas for Thanksgiving. And there was just a lot of it left over. So I've been making turkey egg and cheese sandwiches with the smoked turkey. Their dynamite. More places got to get turkey in the mix for.

[Doug Lemarise]

For breakfast.

[Bill Landis]

For breakfast sandwiches. Like, I want to be able to go to, like, whatever, Tim Hortons and get a turkey, egg and cheese on a bagel. But you can't do that because no one considers. It's been hard enough to get people to recognize chicken as a breakfast meat, which it very much is. But then turkey is so specific to Thanksgiving that it's like, no one's ever going to do that, but they should, because it really works.

[Doug Lemarise]

So. So let me ask you. I think one of the reasons that we started recognizing chicken as a breakfast meat is because of Chick Fil A. Because they're a chicken restaurant and they want to be open in the morning. We've discussed this. We have so many chicken restaurants now. It's wonderful. I'm not complaining. Chick Fil A and Cane's and Zaxby's and everybody who's chicken first and now even Wendy's wants to be a chicken first restaurant. And it's a total mistake. And I hope they go back. But.

Could you start the first turkey first fast food restaurant? Where is the Chick Fil A of turkey? You're getting it at breakfast, you're getting it at lunch. Can you bread turkey and make a turkey nugget? Like, what are we doing? Everybody is in on the chicken trend. Where is the innovation? Where is the leader in saying, I'm making a turkey restaurant where I'm getting turkey fingers. I'm getting a turkey breaded sandwich. Now you still have the regular kind of sam. But, like, is that not possible? Why. Why can't we do that?

[Bill Landis]

It. I don't know. I was just. I'm looking to see if. Because the place that comes closest to that is Boston Market. But I don't think Boston Market does turkey.

[Doug Lemarise]

Right.

[Bill Landis]

They just do chicken.

[Doug Lemarise]

No. Well, they used to do, like. Because Boston Market, when they're doing it, they're giving you a fancy plate. And I used to like to go to Boston Market and I would get turkey because it's like, they'll give you like a Thanksgiving plate. It's like that. But they're not. It's not. It's still fancy, fancy, fancy. My definition of fancy is. But it's not.

[Bill Landis]

There's corn. It must be.

[Doug Lemarise]

There's Cool.

It's not a turkey finger. I want a turkey finger. It's not a turkey nugget. I want a turkey nugget.

[Bill Landis]

I want to try.

[Doug Lemarise]

I.

[Bill Landis]

Part of me, because the texture of turkey is a little different than chicken, and it's not as. Not as tender.

So maybe it wouldn't work as, like, a fried piece of meat. I don't know. I'd be willing to try it to see, but I'm not. I'm not convinced it would work.

But maybe it's great. And.

[Doug Lemarise]

And we're onto something because that would help us get to the. To the turkey breakfast meat. Right. But you're saying at the moment, if you want to lean into turkey breakfast meat, you have to do it in the privacy of your own home.

[Bill Landis]

You do. Yeah. And I've. And I've done, like, you can go, whatever, go to the deli or grocery store, just get sliced turkey lunch meat, and you can. You can use that. That's great. But this is like a nice, thick slice of smoked turkey.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

With egg. With egg and cheese. I like it on beef steak rye. That's my choice. That's my bread of choice for a breakfast sandwich.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay. Nice. I had oatmeal for breakfast.

I don't want to ruin your day. And this is not. I am not stating this as fact, but in my house, if my wife says it, then it's a fact.

[Bill Landis]

Sure.

[Doug Lemarise]

Eaten turkey leftovers on Monday, and she said this is the last day you can eat it, because you can't eat turkey leftovers more than, like, four days after Thanksgiving because the turkey will go bad. And I was devastated, and I'm not sure that I believe it. And is this. Are these the rules that other people adhere to? And I don't want to ruin your turkey breakfast meat sandwiches, but you're a week out now, brother. Are. How long can you eat turkey?

[Bill Landis]

I don't know. I just. I. I let the smell guide me.

If it's not. If it's not smelling funky still, I still make a breakfast sandwich.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. That's also good advice for life, but I think there's a smell slime factor, Right?

[Bill Landis]

Oh, slime, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

So if it smells good and there's no slime on it, slap it on some beef steak rye, and you're good to go.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay. I. I just wanted. I. I don't know what the rules are, so I just. I don't. I don't know what everybody else adheres to.

[Bill Landis]

I'm gonna ask Google AI. Well, yeah. Leftover turkey lasts for three to four days in the refrigerator. Two to two to six months in the freezer for best quality.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay, so I just ruined your day, ruined your week. And you might have to go to the hospital because you've been eating six day old turkey for breakfast.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, you can just freeze. Maybe I should have froze it. Whatever. I feel fine. So. Yeah, there's some left. There's some left. Maybe I shouldn't have it tomorrow.

[Doug Lemarise]

Also, holiday pies at McDonald's. Chef's kiss, right? Everyone loves.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, I haven't, I haven't had one yet. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

Oh yeah, holiday pies are back. I ate. Where did you go?

[Bill Landis]

We.

[Doug Lemarise]

I ate lunch at 4:30 yesterday. Yeah, I know you, you ate very late. Where did you go for lunch?

[Bill Landis]

You know what I did? I went to. I went to Potbelly and I got, and I got a sandwich and I ate my. I ate my lunch was practically dinner. And then I went and laid in my car and took a nap for like 10 minutes. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, it was pretty nice.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

But if anybody was at the, the shopping center that's on third and Owen Tangy and you saw a guy sleeping in his car. That was me.

[Doug Lemarise]

That was Bill. Yeah, I went to McDonald's and ate lunch at 4:30 and had a holiday pie for dessert. So yeah, holiday pies are where it's at because I love the crust of a McDonald's pie but I'm not a big fruit filling pie guy. So that you get that custard in there and you still get the. It's just the best. All right. What are you thinking about?

[Bill Landis]

I don't have a good thinking. I, but I am. I. It's a college football thinking. I guess maybe because you and I were talking about this yesterday, we talked about on the playoff show on Tuesday and we both decided we thought Notre Dame was out.

But the betting market still does not reflect it. The Notre dame is still minus 355 now. It's gone down. It keeps going down, but it's at minus 355 still to make the playoff. And I'm wondering if we were wrong.

[Doug Lemarise]

So I will say this because I saw someone else mention this last I saw someone mention on Twitter that whatever it was that was happening last year that the betting market did not anticipate it or something that I think this might be one of those where I think too much. People are. People take the betting market as fact. And now whatever this Couchy thing is, it's like that now that somehow is just facts, and it's just anticipation, and I don't even know how it works. But betting markets are not facts. It is just right. It starts with somebody's assumption, probably a smart assumption, and then the public helps decide it or not. So in this circumstance, and I hope you didn't mind it, I tweeted out, sort of like when, when we did our playoff show, I was like, well, here's how we actually think it could unfold. And it's all your thinking. I'm not trying to take credit for it. It's like your theory that I have completely adopted, because I think you're 100% right, and I think in this case, I would trust you much more than I would trust the betting market. I think in this one instance, and as two people who have probably lost more money betting than we, one, certainly I think you're smarter than the betting market about this.

[Bill Landis]

Okay, I'll take that. Sure. I don't know. It makes me nervous because I was pretty certain I was pretty sure. I don't, I don't. I don't go out on a limb all that often with, like, takes and opinions on things, and I was, like, pretty certain and said as much on the show, and now I'm just. I'm worried I'm gonna be wrong.

[Doug Lemarise]

No, well, everybody's wrong sometimes. It's okay. But I think you're gonna be right.

[Bill Landis]

I'm wrong a lot.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. So my last thing is I am getting tired of the beard, and so.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, no. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

I, I just. I, I think it's about. My original plan was to do it and then shave it into a mustache for a day during November for Movember, and then I missed it, and now it's December. And I, I don't think I would ever do this long term, but do you think I could have an unironic mustache or if I had just a mustache and no beard, would it look ironic on me?

[Bill Landis]

I think in my. Yeah, I, I. And I think that's true of everybody. I don't, I don't think if you're not someone who's just sort of, like, known for having a mustache and then suddenly you show up with one, it's ironic. There's nothing you can do about it. Even if it looks great, it's still ironic. So.

I. Give it a shot. If you want to. It might work for you, but. But just know that people will think.

[Doug Lemarise]

It is ironic because I was thinking about this. Like, I almost was maybe gonna do it, like, for Tuesday or Wednesday of this week, because I just wanted to have a mustache for a day. Because when I. Last time I grew a beer, like 11 years ago, when I shaved it off, I did shave it off in stages and I took pictures and it's like I did mutton chops and then I did a goatee, and then I did a mustache, and it was like, bit by bit. But I thought to myself, if I show up with just a mustache at a Ohio State news conference, first of all, every single person I interact with is going to comment on it. And I think there's a chance that Ryan Day from the podium will comment on it.

[Bill Landis]

I think there is.

[Doug Lemarise]

It would be so striking. Why does Doug like a beard? It just kind of grows in a little bit. Then people are like, oh, you have a beard but a mustache. There's a moment. Because you can't slide into a mustache. Really, because. Right. Don't you usually kind of do this and then go to the mustache? It's a shock to the system. And I don't want my unironic mustache to be a thing. So I think I just might have to shave it all off because I'd be.

[Bill Landis]

I think you should.

[Doug Lemarise]

I feel weird. I feel weird.

[Bill Landis]

I think. I think you should let it grow out a little more and get. Get fuller and then see whether or not Ohio State's going to go to the Orange Bowl. And then if they get sent to Miami, then you shave the mustache and you just go out like little. You go hang out in, like, Little Havana.

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay.

[Bill Landis]

With a mustache. And I think you leave.

[Doug Lemarise]

Leave a couple buttons.

[Bill Landis]

A couple buttons down. Yeah. Get a gold. Get like a gold bracelet.

[Doug Lemarise]

Yeah. Okay. All right, I'll think about it. But I'm. I'm almost out. I'm almost done with this, so. All right. Maybe I'll let everything grow a little bit more. But then also, I used to be worried that people be like, oh, Doug, if they. If I. If I shade change my facial hair and then Ohio State loses the next game, then people are going to think that I jinxed Ohio State. Do I just have to keep this now till the end of the season? Whatever happens.

[Bill Landis]

Playoff beard. Yeah.

[Doug Lemarise]

So. But I'm just. I'm kind of done, so it's fine. I mean, I'm glad I did it, but I'm not a full time beard guy. Just. It's not who I am. Okay.

[Bill Landis]

Seasonal bearded guy's fine.

[Doug Lemarise]

Seasonal beard guy. Just like pumpkin spice. I named my beard Pumpkin Spice, except it's gray. All right. That's it for this big game breakdown Picks and previews here on the Bill and Doug show for Ohio State Indiana. We will be in Indianapolis to cover this game on Saturday night. We anticipate that we will be doing a post game show the moment the game ends, I think from the press box one way or the other. So for some reason that blows up in our face and we can't do it from the press box. Then it's going to be later. But we're also going to do a live show as soon as the playoff rankings come out on Sunday. So that's two reasons to be subscribed here on YouTube to the bill and Doug show to catch that stuff live because obviously it's live on YouTube and then we put it up on the podcast feeds as quick as we can. But if you want to catch it live post game Saturday or post playoff rankings announcement on Sunday, get subscribed to the YouTube feed if you're listening on a podcast. Thanks for being here. If you're watching back on YouTube, thanks for being here.

Substack billandgosu.substack.com and we'll be getting in the car on Friday. Bill, looking forward to it. It's going to be a fun time in Indy. Great game.

[Bill Landis]

It's crazy we haven't been there and so while we were there but not for an Ohio State game. So yeah, it's going to be a good time. Looking forward to it.

[Doug Lemarise]

Very good. So thanks you guys for being here. As always. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lemarise and that was the Bill and Doug Show.

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[Doug Lemarise]

Oh wood thrush, three o'. Clock.

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[Bill Landis]

Oh man. How about waterproof boots size 10?

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[Doug Lemarise]

Really?

[Bill Landis]

Who knew?

[Doug Lemarise]

Okay, was that you or the birds?

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[Doug Lemarise]

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