Ohio State vs. Jim Knowles: Inside the Buckeyes' showdown with their former defensive coordinator

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State vs. Jim Knowles — Inside the Buckeyes' Showdown with Their Former Defensive Coordinator

Date: October 28, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises & Bill Landis
Podcast Network: Blue Wire

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the compelling storylines and emotional undercurrents surrounding Ohio State's upcoming game against Penn State, now led by former Buckeye defensive coordinator Jim Knowles. Doug and Bill analyze the complex professional relationship between Knowles and head coach Ryan Day, the tactical and emotional significance of this matchup, and how Knowles’ philosophies continue to impact both programs. The episode dives into program dynamics, press conference insights, defensive scheme evolutions, and the very human element behind major coaching changes in modern college football.

---

Key Topics & Discussion Points

The Significance of the Knowles-OSU Clash

• [02:00] Ohio State faces Penn State, coached defensively by Jim Knowles, fresh off three years and a national championship with the Buckeyes.
• Host Tone: Fun, thoughtful, fan-oriented with a touch of playful rivalry.
• Emotion in the Air: Ohio State’s player media availability restricted to captains—a sign, per Doug and Bill, that the program wants to avoid unguarded comments about Knowles.

---

"We are Human": Ryan Day’s Relationship with Jim Knowles

• [07:02] Ryan Day on coaching break-ups:

  "When, like any relationship, when it breaks off, you know, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but there really hasn’t been much communication. He did a great job when he was here, you know, helped us win a national championship and kind of left it at that." — Ryan Day ([07:02])

• On Knowles joining a Big Ten rival:

  "You try not to take those things personal. But we are human." — Ryan Day ([07:35])

• Doug and Bill dissect these comments, observing real emotion from Day—calling the split “abrupt” and describing the current relationship as “icy.”

• Bill:

  “That is probably about as much emotion as Ryan Day is going to show in a press conference setting like that.” ([09:13])

---

Is This a "Revenge Game"? Parsing the College Football Coaching Cycle

• [10:08] The hosts debate the notion of “revenge” games, drawing parallels to NFL coaching changes and real-life career movement.
• Doug cautions against lazy media narratives, but both agree: this game has an extra edge because of the Day-Knowles backstory.

---

How the Split Became “Icy”: Anatomy of a Coaching Departure

• [18:02] Doug outlines his view of the three-year Day-Knowles partnership:

  • Day hires Knowles to overhaul a struggling defense (after a bidding war with Penn State).
  • Knowles is dubbed the “head coach of the defense,” but some of his schemes (like the “Jack” position) clash with long-standing OSU coaching preferences, especially DL coach Larry Johnson’s four-man front.
  • After a disappointing loss to Oregon, Day and staff simplify the defense, reducing Knowles’ schematic freedom.
  • Knowles delivers a national title, but when Penn State offers a big raise, OSU hesitates to match. Knowles leaves, with both sides feeling misunderstood.

  Doug:

  “Calling him the head coach of the defense and then not letting him be 100% of what he was probably rubbed Jim Knowles the wrong way even if Ryan Day was right to do all of it.” ([22:29])

• Bill summarizes:

  “Everybody’s right and everybody’s wrong... never felt like he was totally empowered to do what he wanted to do.” ([21:52])

---

The Knowles "System": Great for Underdogs, Tricky for Elite Talent

• [25:12] Bill and Doug compare Knowles’ innovative, “equalizer” defensive schemes (honed at Duke and Oklahoma State) to the spread offense’s rise from underdog tactic to champion’s staple.

• Doug:

  “To think at Ohio State or Penn State or anywhere where you can get the best defensive players…that can work, I think makes sense... But then I don’t think the transition to the top level of talent has been as seamless as it was for the spread offense.” ([27:20])

• They discuss how Knowles’ complex, safety-driven defense—designed to outsmart superior talent with underdog rosters—can frustrate elite defensive units used to simpler, more aggressive approaches.

  • Cited stats and criticism: OSU players and interim PSU coaches describe the Knowles defense as confusing or “like going to math class.”

    “I can grasp that, I can grasp that. Now all of a sudden you have to study this, like, education, like going to math class.” — Terry Smith, PSU interim coach ([29:36])

---

Scheme vs. Fit: Knowles’ Evolution at Penn State

• [31:00] Knowles moved to Penn State, but his system hasn’t clicked as quickly—Penn State needed instant results in a “championship window.”

• Bill says,

  “Jim Knowles was the right guy for the right time at Ohio State. Not at Penn State.” ([31:53])

• The friction spot: Knowles’ ideal defense needs time and total buy-in; both OSU and PSU required quick returns and didn’t grant total autonomy.

---

Defensive Identity & Playcalling: A Tale of Tweaks and Credit

• [32:00–36:00] Day credits his defensive staff (not just Knowles) for OSU’s resurgence, subtly downplaying Knowles’ sole influence.

  • Day:

    “The common denominator is…the rest of our defensive staff and the players.” ([34:08])

  • Bill notes OSU's current defensive coordinator Matt Patricia has successfully diversified the front and is more open to playing younger personnel—a flexibility Knowles lacked.

---

Motivations & Game Implications

• [41:44] Doug predicts added motivation on both sides, expecting both players and staff to acknowledge, after the game, the emotional stakes:

  “I just think it means something to these guys, to these Buckeyes.” ([41:44])

• Bill highlights the different relationship dynamic between Knowles and OSU players:

  “While Jim Knowles’ player relationships were not poor or antagonistic… I do think there’s a different connection with Matt Patricia that might bring out something from the players if asked about it after the game.” ([42:15])

---

Scheme Comparison & Numbers

• [38:10] OSU’s new defense plays fundamentally sound, bend-but-don’t-break football, ranking #1 nationally in opponent third-down conversions (21.4%). Knowles’ PSU defense, while solid in limiting big plays, struggles on third down and is still “caught in between” identities.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Ryan Day on Knowles departure:

  “When, like any relationship, when it breaks off, you know, sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s bad... but it was abrupt. We certainly respect the work that he did when he was here.” ([07:02])

• Ryan Day on working in the Big Ten:

  “You try not to take those things personally. But we are human.” ([07:35])

• Doug on media and rivalry:

  “I hate when we do that as the media... where the littlest piece of sand... turns into headlines about player guarantees win.” ([08:06])

• On the “head coach of the defense” paradox:

  “Calling him the head coach of the defense and then not letting him be 100% of what he was probably rubbed Jim Knowles the wrong way.” — Doug ([22:29])

• Jim Knowles’ system as ‘math class’:

  “It’s like math. Defense is like going to math class. That’s exactly what defensive players want to do. ‘Hey, you guys wanna run around and violently tackle people with the balls?’ Like, ‘No, man, I wanna do algebra.’” — Doug, quoting and riffing on Terry Smith ([29:36])

• Bill on fit at Penn State:

  “Jim Knowles was the right guy for the right time at Ohio State. Not at Penn State.” ([31:53])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:07] Episode intro, recap of upcoming playoff show, overview of situation with Knowles.
• [07:02] Ryan Day press conference discussion, key quotes about the breakup with Knowles.
• [10:08] Are “revenge games” real? Why this game is different.
• [18:02] Doug’s chronology of the Day–Knowles OSU relationship and departure.
• [25:12] Discussion of Knowles’ defensive schemes in context of CFB trends.
• [27:20] Parallels to the spread offense, strategic transitions, and their limits.
• [29:36] “Math class” defense: Player and coach critiques of Knowles’ system.
• [31:00] Did Penn State make a strategic mistake hiring Knowles?
• [32:00] Credit for OSU’s defensive success, Matt Patricia’s tweaks, and the value of the current defensive staff.
• [37:08] How much will Knowles’ insider knowledge affect Saturday’s game?
• [41:44] Player perspectives and likely post-game emotions and comments.
• [43:35] Debate on defensive fronts, Knowles’ resistance to playing young guys, and current OSU staff flexibility.
• [44:38] Should fans feel free to boo Knowles? Hosts give permission.

---

Conclusion & Takeaways

• The reunion with Jim Knowles at Ohio Stadium is fraught with professional respect, complicated feelings, and tactical intrigue. While neither side is “at fault,” the hosts argue, there was never a perfect alignment between Knowles’ preferred style and Ohio State’s institutional DNA.
• Saturday’s matchup is more than Xs and Os—it’s about fit, adaptation, pride, and a little unresolved tension.
• The episode closes with reminders of upcoming podcast content and the promise of more deep-dive coverage after the game.

---

For deep Buckeye fans and casual observers alike, this episode delivers context, candor, and CFB nerdery, making the human drama behind the Buckeyes-Nittany Lions matchup all the more compelling.

Transcript

[A]

The who's down in who Newville were making their list, but some didn't know Walmart has the best brands for their gifts.

[B]

What about toys? Do they have brands kids have been wanting all year? Yep. Barbie, Tonys and Lego. Gifts that will make them all cheer. Do you mean they have all the brands I adore? They have Nintendo, Nespresso, Apple and more.

[A]

What about so the who answered questions from friends till they were blue. Each one listened and shouted. From Walmart. Who knew Sharp gifts from top brands for everyone on your list in the Walmart app. Upgrade your laundry routine with a durable and reliable Maytag laundry pair at Lowes. Like the new Maytag washer and dryer with performance enhanced stain fighting power designed to cut through serious dirt and grime. And what's great is this laundry pair is in stock and ready for delivery when you need it the most. Don't miss out. Shop Maytag in store or online today at Lowe's.

[B]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Thanks to you guys for being here. Whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on a podcast, we would remind you if you like it, if you're here, if you're here on any kind of regular basis or if you're new, subscribe, give us a thumbs up. Tell a friend about the Bill and Doug Show. We do a lot of Ohio State stuff, obviously. We also do some national college football stuff. We'll have our playoff bracket show on Tuesday evening. The actual playoff rankings will come out for the first time in a week, Bill. So like when we get to the playoff rankings, it's like the last time of us just being theoretical because it's going to be here a week from now. Isn't that fun?

[C]

It is fun. Yeah. It feels like it's like there's like benchmarks in the college football season and now this has become one of them. Right. It sort of like sets you up for the stretch run. I'm excited for it.

[B]

Yeah. Can't wait to have that Tuesday evening thing that everybody hates and yells at. Boy, oh boy. That's just which I actually, I mean, I like it.

[C]

Isn't it fun to yell together? It's fun.

[B]

No, it is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's important. I think it's okay. I don't think it takes away from anything, but we will be yelling. But on this show, we're talking about Jim Knowles facing Ohio State. Jim Knowles, the first year defensive coordinator of the Penn State Nittany Lions. After three years in Columbus as the defensive coordinator of the Ohio State Buckeyes helped Ohio State win the national title last year. Two things, Bill, that I. I think it was. I mean, this kind of thing, you go against somebody that, you know, it's always. It always amps it up a little bit.

[C]

So.

[B]

One thing is that Ohio State has said that. So we always talk to players at Ohio State on Wednesday evening after practice, and they said that this week, the players who will be made available are the captains. And I always feel like they bring out the captains when it's. We want to make sure nobody says anything. We don't want said time. And I'm not sure why they would do that because Penn State hasn't won a Big Ten game. This is no longer a matchup of two top five teams. They, of course, are arrival. That, to me, reads a little bit like, yeah, we're playing this guy who used to coach here. We just want to make sure nobody says anything. Did you get. Is that your read on that or.

[C]

No, I think it's definitely part of it because. So. So the defensively, it's like, we'll get to talk to Caleb Downs. Right. Like so. Yeah.

[B]

The smartest man in America.

[C]

Yes. Yes. So. And he knows. He knows how to not create a sound bite. Right. Although he is a podcast host now. Caleb, listen, you want to drum up some. He'll just save his good stuff for his podcast. He's. Who are we kidding? That's.

[B]

That. Actually, I. Don't you think we could relate to Caleb.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Podcast host to podcast host. What do you really think?

[C]

Yeah, no, that's definitely part of it. It's also sort of the big game way of operating. Like we talked to the captains, I think, before Texas, I assume we will talk to the captains before Michigan. If this game were number one versus number three, whatever we thought it might be coming into the year, I think this probably would have been what happened as well. Obviously, the game is not that. But I also think Ryan Day, in guarding against any kind of a letdown, wants to create the air of it still being that. So I think that's partly the motivation for talking to the captains. But. But to your point, I think it is mostly. Let's not put anybody out there who might say something off the cuff about Jim Knowles.

[B]

Yeah. We have to be realistic about what this game is and isn't. And Ryan Day certainly on Tuesday at his news conference was saying things like, this is still a matchup game. We thought that. And that's what he means when you play like a team, that's as Talented as you. Right. That's his phrase for that. And he's saying, that's what we thought before the season. And nothing has changed except the quarterback. And that's true. Like, it's the same players that in the off season, you thought, hey, like Zaki Wheatley, that guy's a problem. Hey, this offensive line, you know, that's problem. Hey, Nick Singleton and K. Tron Allen at running back, they're problems. So, like, all those things are true. I think if the opposing defensive coordinator hadn't been in the building at Ohio State for three years, we'd be talking to regular players this week.

[C]

I think that's. That is correct. Yeah, I agree.

[B]

And then we asked Ryan Day questions about Jim Knowles on Tuesday, and there were a couple questions about preparing to play a guy who knows you. Right. Which makes sense schematically, that kind of thing. There was a question about, like, hiring. This is his fourth defensive coordinator that he has hired Ryan Day. And there kind of was, like, what did you think of when he left? But I'm just, I'm, I thought I had two things I wanted to ask on Tuesday. One of them was about that Ohio State brought the band in during the bye week, which they normally do during Michigan week. And if you tweak anything about your Michigan preparation, like, we are super interested in that. Ryan Day moved senior tackle a couple years ago. They now appear to have moved the hanging out with the band thing from Michigan week. And I was going to ask about that. I'm really interested in that. But I thought we get three weeks before the Michigan game to do that. I thought Ryan Day needed to be asked about the emotion of playing Jim Knowles. So that's what I asked. And then we can talk about his answer to it. But that was, that was my, I, I, my question. And we'll run it right here. You can't really hear my question very well, but it's. What. How would you just, how would Ryan Day describe his relationship with Jim Knowles? What is the relationship of Ohio State to Jim Knowles? And, like, what are the feelings playing a guy this week? And then I follow up with, like, is it any different when a guy leaves not just for a job, but to go work in the state next door for a Big Ten rival? Here's Ryan Day's answer to all of that. How would you describe, like, this program's relationship with Knowles as you get to go against guy who's in this building for three years?

[D]

Yeah. You know, when, like any relationship, when it breaks off, you know, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but there really hasn't been much communication. You know, he did a great job when he was here, you know, helped us win a national championship and kind of left it at that. And then it was, you know, hey, we gotta go make a replacement and move on from there. So, yeah, that's kind of how it is. And it was abrupt, but we certainly respect the work that he did when he was here.

[B]

Is it clear? Is it any different when he goes down to a Big Ten rival as opposed to some other job?

[D]

I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier, just about how college football and how it's changed and, you know, the money and everything like that. It's just you're seeing some things that maybe we're not used to, but, you know, I guess when you look at the NFL, you see more of that than you would in college. But I guess we're getting more like the NFL, so we try not to take those things personal. But we are human.

[B]

Aren'T we, Bill? Aren't we all human?

[C]

We are indeed, yes.

[B]

So I don't like making mountains out of molehills with things that people say. I feel like that has happened a million times over the years, having covered this sport for 20 years. I think it often happens with players, especially in rivalry games where the littlest piece of sand of like, yeah, we're going to go beat those guys, turns into headlines about player guarantees win. And it's like, what do want the guy to say? And I hate that. I hate when we do that as the media that, like, you end up, like, pinning something on a player that is not at all what he intended to say. What did you think of that answer?

[C]

I thought that it showed he was. He was ready for that question. I thought he. I thought he had had a response ready for it because he wasn't, like, searching for the right words. I think in the midst of answering that question, which you can. I think you can sense Ryan Day doing sometimes. And I really thought. I noted this to our Substack subscribers, like, the punctuation of him, like, kind of looking down as he's saying it, but then looking up at the very end and, like, making what I thought was pretty intense eye contact with you. When he said we are human.

[B]

He.

[C]

Couldn'T help but show a little bit like that. That is probably about as much emotion as Ryan Day is going to show in a press conference setting like that. But. But I thought that was a pretty strong tell of, like, yeah, this Matters. Not that it's surprising, but. But if there was any doubt as to whether or not that relationship was. I think icy is a word I used when we were talking with our. With our substack folks the other day. I think. I think that's a fair way to describe it, that it was icy and that it is influencing the mindsets going into this game. I think that was kind of made apparent to us there.

[B]

So, like last week, as it turns out, when Texas A and M beat lsu, apparently the strength coach at Texas A and M had been the strength coach at lsu. And when Brian Kelly was hired as a head coach at lsu, he did not retain that strength coach. And then that strength coach brought a tackling dummy to practice during the week leading up to LSU with Brian Kelly's face on the tackling dummy.

[C]

I didn't hear that part.

[B]

Yeah, and that was just like, one guy that was just like, what? Like, that's a very personal. It's not like everybody at Texas A and M like, is mad at Brian Kelly. It's just like one guy who now works at Texas A and M is mad that Brian Kelly didn't retain him, but he still did that. And he had all the Texas A and M players tackle Brian Kelly, and then Texas A and M tackled lsu. All the LSU fans left before the game was over. And then Brian Kelly got fired the next day. So, like, this stuff does happen. I also do not think that every single time you play a team that you used to work for or you used to play for, that it is a revenge game, because it's like, what. What are you getting revenge for? This happens in the NFL all the time. There are people who, like, every single time a guy is playing his former team is like, will he get revenge? It's like, he just worked there. Like, I don't. For instance, I worked at cleveland.com for 18 years. You worked at cleveland.com for a very long time. How long did you [e-mail] four years. I don't want revenge against cleveland.com I loved [e-mail] like, I don't want to, like. Like, if. If we had a show. Like, I don't want to, like, take down. It's just, I work there now. I don't. Right. So sometimes this is that. So you could be like, well, Jim Knowles worked at Ohio State. Now he works at Penn State. So I'm giving all these caveats of, like, I don't think it's correct to automatically make something like this into something, but I think this is something, I.

[C]

Was gonna say it's a long wind up to like, you know, this is something, right? Yeah, it is. Clearly it's, it's something. But you're not, you're not surprised that it's something, right? Knowing like, like we don't, I don't think either one of us would pretend to know either Ryan Day or Jim Knowles on like some kind of deeply personal level. But we know you actually have a pretty good relationship for Fine Day. We know them well enough to like not be surprised if perhaps their personality is kind of graded against one another from time to time. Right. And then clearly it ended in a very strange sort of way and if like a very kind of public way too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

About the, the day of the championship celebration and the news coming out that day that Jim Knowles is leaving for Penn State. Like, it, it. There was probably no way for that to end well, once Jim Knowles decided he was going to go to Penn State. But that was up there on the list of ways it could probably like end the worst.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So like, I, I get it. I, I'm not, I'm not surprised that it's a thing. I guess I was more curious of how much Ryan Day would let us in on the idea or the fact that it is a thing. But then he sort of did. So here we are.

[B]

I think he did too.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I like you. Ha. You have so. And I think it's a three part thing. As you said, he was prepared for the question. I actually was surprised he sort of didn't get asked it. We don't have to talk about it.

[C]

I do think though, you know, you're probably the best one to ask it. I don't know that that answer is probably right if you don't, if you.

[B]

Don'T ask it that I think that's fair. We do have a good relationship and he knows I'm not trying to get him, but I'm, I'm not. It's not a gotcha question, but I think fans are super interested in this. That's a question for the fans because we work for the fans. So like that idea has sort of been asked around it, but it's like, what. What is the deal with you guys? But I think in the answer, the three things that all to me, to a thing is a. When a relationship ends, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. So that's the start of like, because, because, because you could just go with like, hey man, like, you know, whatever. People move on as part of. But sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's good for a relationship to end. I'm not saying that this time it was good that he's saying this time it was good, but he is saying sometimes it is good for a relationship to end. Interesting. Second thing. Abrupt. It was abrupt. So that's hit like this again was not necessarily like a, hey, man, like, thanks for being here. Good luck with what's next. Like, as you acknowledge it happened on the day. And. And Bill Rabinowitz covers this in his book Brockeye Brotherhood and Rabinowitz, you owe me $5 for that. He interviews Jim Knowles in there. And it's clearly, I think most Ohio State fans are aware of this. There's kind of a back and forth in the book. There kind of is, I think been there out there before. Like, Jim Knowles was getting offered more money by Penn State. Ross Bjork, the ad, says, we never had a chance to match Penn State. And Jim Knowles says, like, that's not true. They knew what the offer was. And. And Jim Knowles, in his mind, the choice was if you stay at Ohio State, it's staying for less money. And then they kind of just like they both make it seem like the other side kind of ended it, which again, even they can't even discuss it and agree on the particulars of what happened, which is what happens when a break, like, it doesn't have to go that way. So then like those two parts, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. Abrupt. And then we're all human. Is just like, Ryan Day did not have to say that. But that's as far as he's gonna go of like, yeah, yeah, this means a little something to us. And then, by the way, that's the only thing we're saying about it. Nobody else is allowed to talk about it. But. But I did crack the door enough for you every Ohio State fan to know, like, yeah, there's a little something to it this week. Which he did not have to do.

[C]

Yeah. And we'll talk to him again on Wednesday night. But I also think sort of he doesn't have to say anything else.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like, he's like you said, he's. He said all he's going to say, like, elaborate on that. He's not going to elaborate on it. He'll try to elaborate on it with his offense on Saturday. Right. He's not, he's not gonna say. He's not gonna say any more words. I think about that until maybe after the game. But there was Like I said, there was a way for him to answer that question that didn't dismiss it but, but didn't, didn't like whatever drop, drop the, the veil on, on the personal aspect of it. And, and that happened. But I don't know. I think it's fun. Like, I think it like, let's say season's gone off the rails, right? Like, and we're looking for a way for this game to be interesting. It's like, all right, here we go. Here's something to kind of ponder and roll around in your mind as we get ready to watch Ohio State play Penn State.

[B]

Yeah, subscribe, like tell a friend about the Bill and Doug Show. Hit that subscribe button if you haven't right now. And by the way, we just want to remind you, like, as you're maybe feeling some of the Ohio State vibes right now. Oh you, your Buckeye hackles are getting hackled. Roback.com man, if you really, it's like, man, I want to wear that like a big Ohio State stripe on a cool quarter zip to the game on Saturday. So Jim Knowles knows what's up, right?

[C]

Well, while I boo Jim Knowles, I.

[B]

Want to look my best. Why rain booze it down upon the defensive coordinator for our national championship team team. Go to Roback Doc. That's a good, I think actually that's a good advertising thing. Yeah, when you boo, you want to look your best. Roback.com that's not officially approved by them, but also they can have that for free if they want it. Go to the game day collection. All kinds of good fall stuff there. You'll find something you like. That's the thing, like I always say, like, go look at it. I, I bet you'll find something that you like. R H O b a c k.com and then you do this b a D20 that gets you 20% off your first order. Bad 20, 20% off the first order. This is cool, fun sports stuff. It is not. Sometimes there's like real life things that come into play and things and that's like, man, that this is not that this is just job stuff. But let me, let me outline how. I think we maybe got to the point where this did get a little icy and maybe led to Ryan Day saying we're all human. Is it? Can I give you the brief? My, my opinion of the brief synopsis of the Ryan Day Jim Knowles Ohio State three year experience. Okay.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Ohio State's defense is in trouble after 2021. Ryan Day goes to hire the Hottest coordinator on the market. That is Jim Knowles at Oklahoma State who runs a very specific style of defense. And everybody wants to h. Ohio State basically wins a bidding war. Jim Knowles is from Pennsylvania. There's not anything drawing him to Ohio other than the opportunity to win a national championship. Coach at, coach at the highest level and a bunch of money. Right. Which is frankly what draws any of us to anything. So there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. Ryan.

[C]

That initial bidding war, by the way, sorry, was against Penn State like among.

[B]

Others, but like very much against Penn State. Right. And then, and then Penn State wound up with Manny Diaz, which was great. It's just that he got a head coaching job very quickly and then they went to Tom Allen and Tom Allen left and then they went to Jim Knowles. Ryan Day very specifically calls Jim Knowles the head coach of the defense. That's what he's looking for. And Ryan Day and Ohio State know what they're getting with Jim Knowles. They know how Jim Knowles wants to play. And then Jim Knowles gets here and does a lot of the things that he wants to do. Safety driven defense. This, this Jack position, which is like a stand up edge rusher, but it also butts up against Ohio State traditionally using a four man front with Larry Johnson. There's a little consternation there. And the, the experiment with running the jack as part of the defense really doesn't work. So part of what, like he's supposed to be the head coach of the defense, but part of what he does and what Ohio State knew he did, he kind of tries to do in year one and it doesn't work. And then they kind of say like you can't do that basically. Or they, they decide together this is nice. So the gym Knowles is already like, well like you knew what I was, but you kind of didn't let me go all the way there because you also had this experienced defensive line coach who recruited guys to a certain position way of playing and then you kind of wanted to stick with. So then they continue into year two. He maybe has over blitz the times he backs off a little bit. He's still the head coach of the defense, but he kind of can't again get all the way there with what he wants to do. They, they blitz less, they give up fewer big plays in year two, but probably still maybe you're not all the way there with what you want to be as a defense then in year three. It's like in all this thing it's hard to learn. It's Complex. It's hard to learn. And then in year three, they go to Oregon and they lose and they give up too many points. And the idea is that, like, maybe this defense is too complex. Bill writes about this in his book. The calls were coming in late, and they, after the Oregon loss, like, pared down the defense to some degree, said, hey, you got to get the play calls in faster. And maybe we speculate. A lot of people speculate, did Ryan Day have maybe a little bit more influence on the defense after that? The Jim Knowles, who had been called the head coach of the defense by the head coach the whole time, actually wasn't the head coach of the defense because the head coach of the team was having more things to say about that. And then all this time, still, Jim Knowles might feel like, I. You. You hired me to run defense a certain way and then never let me completely do it. And now you're saying, like, it's too complex when I still. I wasn't even able to do my whole thing the whole time. And then they win a national championship. He still is a very good defensive coordinator, is recognized as such, is being offered by his home state school as huge Rays. In Ohio State, instead of being like, man, we'll match every single dollar you're offered, hedges a little bit, and he's like, you didn't even let me do what I wanted to do, and now I helped you win a national championship, and you won't immediately match what I want. I'm out. And Ohio State's thinking, man, like, you were good, but also, we kind of had to tweak some of your stuff a little bit. And now you're, like, trying to, like, demand something from us when you should be celebrating that you've just reached the peak of your profession by winning a national championship. And I get all of it.

[C]

So everybody's right and everybody's wrong.

[B]

I think it's just a little bit of a clash of egos, that you have to have an ego to be great at what you do. And Jim Knowles has to believe that his way is the best way. And Ryan Day has to believe I'm going to do whatever it takes for this program to succeed. If that means I have to take away a little bit of authority from the defensive coordinator along the way, that, so be it. I don't care. And I get it all the way along. But I do think in the end, calling him the head coach of the defense and then not letting him be 100% of what he was probably rubbed Jim Knowles the wrong way. Even if Ryan Day was right to do all of it.

[C]

Yeah, I think, no, I think you're, you're probably on it. Right. And never, it never felt like he was totally empowered to do what he wanted to do. Now I think it's fair to ask, like, should he be. Ryan Day's the head coach. Right, Right. Like, it's completely agreed. Yeah. Right. So I don't, I don't think it was necessarily wrong that that happened, but I think that did clearly happen. And maybe there was, I don't know if there would have been miscommunication along the way of, of what Jim Knowles was going to be totally in charge of. And then like, what he was actually in charge of once he got to Ohio State. I, I don't know. I don't know, have any reason to believe that that was the case, but certainly it's a possibility. But I do think that's what it came down to. It's like, and it's funny because Jim Knowles leaves Ohio State to go to Penn State. And if you look at Penn State's defense, basically up until James Franklin got fired, it's doing a lot of the same stuff that he was doing at the tail end of his Ohio State tenure. And in the first game where he basically didn't have any supervision because there's no head of coach at Penn State. You know, what he was doing, Oklahoma State stuff, they came out, they were doing like they were catering over to three, three against Iowa. And it's like, well, I haven't seen that in four years from a Gym Knowles defense. So, like, clearly Knowles has an idea of how he would prefer to do things. There was always this question, right. Of when Knowles was here. It's, you know, it's akin to sometimes you see in college basketball, but you see it in college football too. Like, it's a, it's a little bit gimmicky. Right. And, and is it that. And it's, and it is that way in part to be a talent equalizer when he's at places like Duke and Oklahoma State. It's like, well, you don't have to do all that when you have the more talent than everybody. You're in a place like Ohio State or even a place like Penn State. And I don't know if Jim Knowles ever came to terms with, like, where he was before and where he is now and the marriage between those two things and how, like, it can't all be exactly the same team because what you're being asked is the job description is a little different and the people you're doing it with are different. So that's on him, I think. Right. And I think it's. It was, it was an issue here at Ohio State and it's an issue. It was an issue at Penn State. Like you hear the same stuff about the defense being confusing at Penn State. Right. It's the exact same stuff. So. And that doesn't mean he's a bad defensive coordinator. I just think it means he has to figure out what he wants to be and he just never, I mean he clearly figured it out. Like, whatever it was, they got to a good point to win a national championship last year. But I don't know, like, if in the end, seeing especially what's happened now at Penn State, if like the, the fit at like this level of college football is like exactly what Jim Knowles is looking for. If he wants to run a lot of the stuff that he wants to run.

[B]

It really to me is a lot of when you think about the spread offense and when it started out and like what Kevin Wilson was doing at Northwestern as the offensive coordinator, what Joe Tiller was doing as the head coach at Wyoming and then Purdue, what Rich Rodriguez was doing on the way up. Right. Like, and you know much more about this than me, but it's like an underdog offense. It's an equal, it's an equalizing offense. It's our, our quarterback maybe isn't quite as tall in a traditional pocket passer. It's maybe our running back isn't quite a thumper, but we're going to get guys and stuff space. We're going to spread you out horizontally. We're going to make the quarterback a run threat to make sure that we're playing 11 on 11 and not being at a disadvantage on offense and all those things. It's an underdog offense that then Urban Meyer adapted and then decided to take to places where you can get the best talent in the country. And now we see, and not only Urban Meyer, but we see the way the spread offense has taken over college football in a lot of ways. Football in general. Now people with all the best players were, were playing that way. Right? And so it went from an underdog offense to an everyman offense. And Urban Meyer was huge in that. I think this Jim Knowles defensive scheme is a little bit of that kind of thing. The idea that we're gonna play a, a 3, 3 5, we're gonna be a safety driven defense. We're gonna have like maybe some of these smaller Linebackers making a bunch of plays. Right. That if we don't have edge rushers who beat tackles and get to the quarterback on their own, we're going to have this jack position floating around and creating confusion and that it obviously he got to this opportunity by doing it at Duke and Oklahoma State. And then to think at Ohio State or Penn State or anywhere where you can get the best defensive players in the country, that that can work, I think makes sense. I think it makes sense to hire Jim Knowles. I think it makes sense for Jim Knowles to want to be hired. And it also makes sense. Makes sense for Jim Knowles to want to run the thing that got him to this point. But then I don't think the transition to the top level of talent has been as seamless as it was for the spread offense. Is that.

[C]

Yeah, that's probably. I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah. You just don't see you. You did see Urban show that it's what was a quote. We did it on. Yeah.

[B]

25 years.

[C]

25 year winter. And it was like the north, the Northwestern Michigan game when Northwestern beat Michigan and had like 600 yards of offense and Urban Myers quote about that was like, you saw the spread offense work in the Big Ten. And then it's like I took it to the SEC and like, of course in like urban fashions, like, nobody told me it was going to work. It's like, okay, that's what really happened. But then he did. He ran it. He ran it with. With tremendous talent and it worked. But. But I. And then you saw that replicated, I think, at other places or versions of it with that got high talent. But I don't know that you see a lot of high recruiting defensive programs running this style of defense. Right? So. Yeah. And I don't know what the disconnect there is. Maybe there is none. And that we just don't have enough evidence to say that it's one way or the other. But clearly some things needed to be tweaked. And frankly at Ohio State they were. Once they tweak them. Right. But no one likes being told, your stuff's not good, do something different. And that's kind of what happened with Jim Knowles. And it's just very funny to me that then he got to the point in the season with Penn State when the season was kind of over and like, who cares what you do? He reverted back to doing the. The stuff that he likes to do best. So like, I thought even that was like, sort of instructive about the way Things went at Ohio State, I'm gonna.

[B]

Read from Bill Rabinowitz's book, but again, this is not saying that you should go buy this book, but, Bill, you owe me another $5. Rabinowitz said, Every time I put the book on screen, he'll give me $5. This is from after they lost to Oregon last year, they pared down the defensive playbook significantly from about 25 defensive looks to about 12 to 15. Denzel Burke said, now, this is a quote from Ty Hamilton, the defensive tackle. I felt like there were a lot of checks that made you think too much while you're on the field. When you're on the field, you want to be locked in. That's Ohio State defensive players in year three in the Gymnoll system after losing to Oregon. Being like, this is too complicated. This is Terry Smith. I'm just using quotes to back up everything you already said. This is Terry Smith, the interim Penn State head coach after taking over on the defense. It's complicated. It's very complicated. Where football may have been so easy, where players say, I can grasp that, I can grasp that. I can grasp that. Now all of a sudden you have to study this, like, education, like going to math class. That's the interim head coach's description of the current defensive coordinator at Penn State. And then James Franklin, before he got fired, said, there have been obviously some adjustments to what we're doing on and getting our guys to play confident within the system is still a work in progress. I don't think that's a question. We're not playing as fast, as aggressive as we have in the past on the defensive side of the ball. That's right. That's before he got fired. Yeah. Our defense is kind of slowing us down. Then the interim head coach is like, it's like math. Defense is like going to math class. That's exactly what defensive players want to do. Hey, you guys want to run around and violently tackle people with the balls? Like, no, man, I want to do algebra. What are we doing? But it's the exact same thing. And it's more your fault for hiring him, because Jim Knowles is Jim Knowles. And so for him to be successful a certain way and then for you to bring him in and be like, oh, God, what are you doing? I think it's more on you. No.

[C]

Yeah. No. Yeah. And like, listen, this was not. It was not discussed at the time.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And it's easy to re litigate it now that James Franklin has been fired and Penn State's defense has struggled the way it has and some of the things that have been said. But, but clearly there's something to the idea of it just takes a really long time for this defense to get to where it needs to be. It took three years at Ohio State, it took four years at Oklahoma State. And like the idea that Jim Knowles is just going to show up at Penn State and everything was going to be fine. Was short sighted and in another universe would have been a good hire probably still for Penn State. But Penn State was in a one year championship window and didn't, didn't have the time for this defense to, to kind of take root the way that it needs to. So that's, that's a separate conversation about maybe James Franklin being a little too blinded by, by Ohio State. But yeah, it just wasn't the right guy for the right time. I think Jim Knowles was the right guy for the right time at Ohio State.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Not a Penn State.

[B]

Jim Knowles was more like a savior when it came to Ohio State because their defense was having real issues after 2021. Whereas Tom Allen wasn't fired at Penn State as the defensive quarter. He left, he left to go with the Clemson defensive coordinator. Manny Diaz hadn't been fired as a defensive coordinator. He left to be the Duke head coach before that. Like they liked what they were doing and I, I think they would have kept Manny Diaz or Tom Allen if they could if they didn't have that choice. And then when, when, when you had to do something else, you went and hired a guy who was still perceived as, and, and like in like rightly so, as maybe the best defensive coordinator on the market. But it's possible that like what actually brought out the best of a Gym knowles defense in 2024, in the second half of that season and in the College Football Playoff was you. You denulsified it a little bit and that's what brought about the peak performance of that defense. But then when you hire him, how can you hire him and denulsify it? And so it's like it, it is, it is a very complicated process and I don't know that anybody's at fault. And as we again continue to think about this as like Jim Knowles coming back to face this Ohio State team, I think it is all very, and it goes back to the word that Ryan Day used, which is human. It's all very human. But also I think the relationships of all of this are just as complicated as the scheme and that they are all. It all feels like math class. It's all very Complicated. And that makes it super interesting. But I'm pretty sure, like, Ohio State fans, if they get an opportunity, are kind of going to boo Jim Knowles. And I just think there probably are some hard feelings all the way around. Not by anyone's fault, but this just the way things shook out.

[C]

Yeah, no, I think. I don't. I don't anticipate the reception being particularly warm. And it's, you know, primarily a byproduct of how it ended and where he went. But also, too, I.

[B]

The. The.

[C]

The notion, and I don't think it's an entirely off base one. It's like, yes, you had the best defense in the country last year and you won a national championship, but now it is sort of painted in the light of. Well, that happened, like, after some responsibility. Maybe that's the wrong word, but, like, some of the influence was, like, kind of taken away from you, right? Like, like, how. How much of that was you. And I even thought it was interesting on Tuesday when Ryan Day was, like, sort of asked to compare, I think, Bible or venom, let's kind of compare, like, Matt Patricia and Jim Knowles and Ryan Day said, like, Jim had a. Jim was great here. Matt's doing a great job here. But the common denominator is, like, the rest of our defensive staff and the players. Right. Like, so it's not even in that it felt like Ryan. Ryan Day and I think, like, trying to compliment Matt Patricia in some way ended up kind of taking away even further from what Jim Knowles accomplished here by reminding people that he has really good defensive assistance and obviously had tremendous defensive talent. So, yeah, complicated is the right word, I think. Fun and interesting on some level. As long, like, it doesn't. I don't think anything's like. Like, nothing has, like, crossed the line. I think, in terms of, like, how people reacted to this, and I don't anticipate that happening on Saturday, but it is quite the. The layer to add to this game, and it was going to be this way anyway. Like, but it has just been pushed to the forefront now because this is not a game between two teams. You're gonna be playing in the College Football Playoff. So this is sort of like, all we have to focus on.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because Ryan Day even said, like, he. He's. He sort of that. That Tim Walton and James Lernadis and Larry Johnson and Matt Guerrero, like, probably don't get enough credit for all the things they do defensively. Like, almost sort of. He didn't say, like, you guys, but he could have like meeting the media that like we. And fairly so we are focused on like the coordinators and the. But that it's not only about, oh, Jim Knowles did this and that Matt Patricia is doing this that like I'm not. Again, we've said many times and Ryan Day said many times his hiring about Patricia was partially predicated on finding a defensive coordinator who would keep those existing four coaches. Matt Patricia didn't bring his guys because Ryan Day really wants to make sure that people understand how good those four defensive coaches are, how much they have done for the program under two different coordinators. And he thinks they should get more credit. So like that idea of this too and the idea again that, that Matt Guerreri is. Was sort of came to Ohio State as Jim Knowles as right hand man. Like Jim Knowles is his mentor and now Knowles is gone and now there's like a little bit of a. But Guerrero's wearing Buckeye clothes, man. He didn't follow. I'm sure if he wanted Jim Knowles would have taken Macari to State College. I don't, I don't have any doubt about that. Right. If Macareri wanted to go.

[C]

Yeah, but that's the other thing about Knowles going to Penn State is like Knowles didn't really. I think Knowles might take in some like QC guys with him. But, but, but the position coaches at Penn State I think were mostly unchanged, if not entirely unchanged too. Right. So it's not a, not a dissimilar situation.

[B]

Just it's interesting. Ryan also. Ryan Day also said, we know he'll have some curveballs, as he always does. About Jim Knowles, asked about sort of this schematic thing of when you know somebody intimately that this, this style of Ohio State offense and the Gymnol style of defense went against each other in practice every day, ones versus ones for three years. And then Ryan Day's answer to that was kind of. I think you can get wrapped up too much in that kind of thing. It really comes down to fundamentals. I don't know if I believe that.

[C]

No. I almost feel like Ryan, Ryan Day needs to go back over like the notes because he's. I think he's a pretty meticulous note taker. The notes from like every defensive staff meeting that he was a part of over the last three years and all the things he. That were pitched and he said no to. That's what's gonna be. That's what's gonna be on the field on Saturday. General's like, what do you think of this, huh? How about this. Remember he said I couldn't do this. How do you think, how do you feel about it now, Ryan? Just like touchdown Jeremiah Smith. That's how I feel about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, I think it matters.

[B]

Yeah. And it is one of those things just looking at like Jim, Matt, Patricia, if we talked about like this defensive staff, this defensive coordinator, this defensive style, these intelligent defensive players, they aren't like causing a million turnovers. They aren't getting, you know, crazy pressure on every single play, but their success rate is excellent. Second the Big Ten behind Indiana, they do their job on a down to down basis and they make it very hard for an opposing offense to drive down the field methodically. And they don't give up. Jim big plays. Jim Knowles was much more boomer bust. Jim Knowles wanted to blitz you and create big plays. Havoc rate is one way that you can judge that. But like what's happening at Penn State is that like they kind of don't have either, that they're actually down in tackles for loss and that kind of thing. But they also are not very good the down to down, do your job style of defense. And that can be like a very difficult spot. That it just is a little bit more boomer bust like for, for right now as you think about it, Ohio State's defense is allowing a 21.4% conversion rate on third down for opponents. That's the best in the country. Right. Penn state is allowing a 40 conversion rate on fourth down. That's 81st in the country. And they are creating, they've created the same number of turnovers Ohio State and Penn State defensively. And Penn State was like a tackles for loss monster last year. It's like Abdul Carter's part of that. But they really got after you and they just kind of maybe to the same extent aren't getting after you in the same way. Last year they, they averaged 7.44 tackles for loss per game. Penn State did that was ninth in the country this year at 6.14. That's 41st. So like Ohio State's, like Ohio State's just doing their job every play and making you march. And then Jim Knowles in PE kind of aren't all the way there on the big time plays, but then they aren't there on doing your job every down and they're really kind of caught in between. They're kind of giving up a decent number of big plays. Like it's just, it's not a great, it hasn't coalesced and you can tell.

[C]

The one thing I did notice, I'm looking at it now too in Knowles first year and like Ohio State fans know this so I'm sorry to make you relive it. Ohio State allowed 18 plays or 40 yards or more in 13 games in 2022. It's like more, more than one per game which is kind of insane. Penn State this year is only allowed three in seven games. So like they're not, they're not giving up the like back breaking giant hits that Ohio State was giving up like even to bad teams and Gymnols first year. But yeah, they are a little soft on defense still especially when it comes to converting on third down.

[B]

Yeah. So that's where we are. It's just kind of I, I, I was interested in, in how Ohio State would talk about this and Ryan Day gave you just enough to let you know that there'll be a little bit of a thing and then I would not be surprised if post game maybe a couple players say some stuff of like, you know, know we really wanted to show them or we wanted like not, not even like in a, in a like take that Jim Knowles kind of way but like that I, I think players will admit that they were a little extra motivated. Whether it's defensive players saying like yeah, like that guy or whether it's offensive players saying we want to show that you know, this style of offense can't be stopped by any defense, even one that knows us so well or whatever. I don't know. I, I don't know. I don't want to overdo it but I think, I just think it means something to these guys, to these buckets.

[C]

I think, think, I think it does. And I don't know from the player perspective, like I think I said this before, like they understand that the nature of, of the business and I don't think he can be too sentimental about anything. And I think by and large Jim Knowles had pretty good relationships with his players.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

But not that, not the tightest ones. Like even Peyton Pierce a couple weeks ago was talking about Matt Patricia and he said like now Peyton Pierce wasn't a starter last year but I think he said that he talked more with Matt Patricia like in Map Patricia's first week on campus than he did with Jim Knowles like all of last season.

[B]

Season.

[C]

Right. So I do think there's a difference. While Jim Knowles player relationships weren't, we're not like poor or like antagonistic or anything like that. I do think there's a different connection with Matt Patricia that might Bring out something from the players if asked about it after the game.

[B]

And I will say the last thing I wanted to ask you about is one of the criticisms after the regular season loss for Ohio State last year was Nick Saban basically said their defensive structure was antiquated or kind of stale or whatever it was. That you can't just run a four man front. That's not sophisticated enough. And I'm sure Jim Knowles was like, yeah, I know, that's why I want to run stuff that's not just a four man front. And Ohio State kind of had demanded that. No, that they run a four man front. And now Jim Knowles is gone and Matt Patricia is doing all kinds of stuff with different looks with the front and it's like, oh yeah. Larry Johnson's like, yeah, that's cool, we're good, we'll, we'll figure it out along the way. And Ryan Day, like on Tuesday was saying, you know, it's been an adjustment for Larry Johnson to do things a different way. And it's not an adjustment that they ever really made while Jim Knowles was here and wanted to do it. Now they had Jack sawyer, they had J.T. twee, Molaw, they had certain guys that were recruited to a certain kind of thing. I don't think it's only coach related, but I bet you that makes Jim Knowles tear his hair out maybe.

[C]

Yeah, I think it could. But also like Ohio State gets into these five man fronts a lot of times because they can put Arvell Reese on the line of scrimmage and they're comfortable playing Peyton Pierce as a sophomore at middle linebacker. It's like Jim Knowles didn't play young players he didn't like.

[B]

That's been an issue at Penn State this year. Right?

[C]

Yeah. So it's like I like Cody Simon, Tommy Eichenberg, Steel Chambers, like didn't come off the field. Right. So like you had Arvell Reese at your disposal last year, but you don't play young players. So like I don't like is that on Jim Knowles? I don't know, maybe I'm taking it too far. But I, I think there's a more of an open mindedness, personnel wise with this defensive staff than there was the last couple of years too, too.

[B]

Yeah. Would Arvell Reese have been a good Jack? I mean, is that what he is right now? I don't know. I don't even know what a Jack is.

[C]

He's a really good pass rusher, I know that much.

[B]

Yeah, he's a good player. Anyway, okay. So anyway, like, if you're an Ohio State fan who, like, wants to be like, oh, Jim Knowles, I think you have permission to. I think like Ryan Day just gave you a little enough of an opening to be like, yeah, it's enough of a thing that you're not making it up.

[C]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

That's fair. Like, subscribe, tell a friend. We have a playoff show Tuesday night. We'll have a big show for our Substack subscribers on Wednesday about the Ohio State Penn State rivalry. We will have a visit from Audrey Snyder, great Penn State writer from the Nittany Dispatch podcast who will join us. And that will go up on YouTube feeds and podcast feeds here. Sometime Wednesday, late afternoon, probably Bill, as I sound. Right?

[C]

Right, yes. Wednesday, yeah. Late afternoon. Yep.

[B]

And then Ohio State picks on Thursday, national picks on Friday, and then we would love to have you guys join us for our post game show on Saturday. Traditionally, our Ohio State post game shows have been right. When the Ohio State game ends, that will not be the case this week because both Bill and I are going to the game in Ohio Stadium. So I think our plan, Bill, is we're going to do like a late night, night, after the games are over, 11pm show. Is that correct?

[C]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Did we say we were going to do like an Ohio State post game show when we get back from the stadium and then do like a national show at night? Maybe that's what we said.

[C]

I think that was the plan. Yes.

[B]

I probably should have cleared this with the Chief Content Officer before I said it live on the air.

[C]

You can't figure it out? It's fine.

[B]

All right, so that means you have to listen to another show this week to get the actual plan on what's going to happen on Saturday. So it's just a good tease to make you guys stick with us, but we know that you do and we're so appreciative of that. Thank you for being here as always. I got a bunch more stuff coming this week here on YouTube here on the podcast feeds on substack billanddougosu.substack.com but for now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice. And that was the Bill and Doug show, Foreign.

[E]

Security awareness month. And LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, LifeLock is your best choice. LifeLock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart heart. Stay safe and stay protected. With a 30 day free trial at lifelock. Com specialoffer terms apply.