Ohio State vs. Penn State beat writer breakdown: Nittany Lions were targeting Buckeyes for months

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State vs. Penn State Beat Writer Breakdown – Detailed Summary

Podcast: The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Episode: Ohio State vs. Penn State beat writer breakdown: Nittany Lions were targeting Buckeyes for months
Host: Blue Wire
Date: October 29, 2025
Guests: Audrey Snyder (Nittany Dispatch), Bill Landis, Doug Lesmerises

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep-dive roundtable into the current states of Ohio State and Penn State football, with a particular focus on the fallout from Penn State's coaching situation and how both programs have been eyeing their rivalry matchup for months. The discussion, featuring Penn State beat writer Audrey Snyder, explores coaching hires, the psychological impact of the Ohio State rivalry, in-depth run-game analysis, talent evaluations, and strategic adjustments heading into their next meeting. The show’s tone is candid, playful, and rich with insider anecdotes.

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Major Topics and Discussion Points

1. Penn State’s Coaching Search and James Franklin’s Departure

Timestamps: [01:31] – [05:50]

• Penn State’s Timeline: Audrey predicts the new head coach hire will happen late Nov/early Dec, balancing timing with potential playoff implications for candidates ([01:35]).
• Top Candidates:
  • Matt Rhule is heavily linked due to his close relationship with Penn State AD Pat Kraft—“these guys are super tight buds… vacation together” ([01:49]).
  • Other potential names: Matt Campbell, with Audrey dismissing Lane Kiffin as a “six month entertainment” fit and making clear Brian Kelly is not in the mix ([02:58]).
• Fan Sentiment: There is skepticism about Matt Rhule’s record in big games; alumni reactions have been negative, especially during Nebraska losses ([03:57]).
• Context: This is the first “normal” head coaching search at Penn State since 1966.

Memorable Quote:
“As one source told me, Lane Kiffin coming here would be entertaining for six months, but after that, not so much.”
— Audrey Snyder [02:58]

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2. Ohio State’s Psychological “Loom” Over Penn State

Timestamps: [05:33] – [09:12]

• Rivalry Impact: The panel explores whether Penn State measures itself by Ohio State—and Audrey affirms they absolutely do ([06:31]).
• Offseason Focus: Penn State “spent so much time looking into how they were going to beat Ohio State.” Jim Knowles even conducted film sessions with PSU’s staff ([06:31]).
• Self-Scouting and Oregon Impact: Extensive prep for Ohio State and Oregon arguably “broke” the team after a tough double-OT loss to the Ducks ([07:53]).
• Aspirational Benchmarking: Penn State looks to mimic Ohio State in programming, even down to media access standards.

Memorable Quote:
“Penn State this offseason spent so much time looking into how they were going to beat Ohio State… I think that’s part of what broke this team.”
— Audrey Snyder [06:31, 07:53]

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3. Can Penn State’s Months of Preparation Pay Off This Week?

Timestamps: [11:11] – [13:25]

• Run-Game Setbacks: Injuries, particularly to linebacker Tony Rojas, exposed the defense despite offseason efforts ([11:11]).
• Dude Count: Despite NFL-level talent on the roster, individual Penn State “dudes” haven’t played up to expectations ([12:46]).
• Talent vs. Output: Upcoming draft success will contrast with what’s likely to be a disappointing win total ([13:25]).

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4. Key Questions and Position-by-Position Previews

Timestamps: [13:55] – [39:17]

A. Run Game: Ohio State

• Freshman Surge: Isaiah West and Bo Jackson (both true freshmen) lead the way in “elusiveness” and missed tackles forced, outperforming older RBs like CJ Donaldson or James Peoples ([14:34]).
• Efficiency, Not Explosiveness: The Buckeyes’ rushing attack is “good, not great” per Landis ([16:50]).
• Strategic Shifts: Ohio State may increasingly rely on freshmen for big plays.

B. Run Game: Penn State

• Singleton Struggles: Nick Singleton’s regression is spotlighted—he’s “overthinking everything,” with coaching and staff turnover compounding issues. Katron Allen has outperformed him ([17:35]).
• Coaching Changes: Loss of RBs coach J’Wuan Sider and arrival of Stan Drayton (ex-OSU assistant) has muddied position room stability ([18:30]).
• Penn State’s Dilemma: James Franklin’s “loyal to a fault” approach hurts backfield optimization ([19:52]).

Memorable Quotes:
“Nick Singleton looks like a shell of himself. Katron Allen has been the better back, but James Franklin wouldn’t commit to K. Tron Allen because… ‘I’m loyal. Loyal to a fault.’”
— Audrey Snyder [18:32, 19:52]

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C. Where Does Penn State Have an Edge?

• Special Teams: Snyder highlights punt-blocking, notably Deny Dennis-Sutton’s blocks, as PSU’s clearest area of advantage—“that could be the thing” ([20:37]).
• Caveat: Special teams being the best unit is more a sign of offensive/defensive struggle.

D. Where Does Ohio State Have an Edge?

• Pass Defense: “Ohio State’s pass defense is just going to render Penn State one dimensional,” says Landis ([22:19]).
• Penn State’s QB Challenge: Ethan Grunkemeyer, in just his second start and under major pressure, faces a daunting OSU secondary ([22:35]).

Memorable Quote:
“No one's really been able to throw it on Ohio State yet… It's a tough spot for Ethan Grunkmeyer.”
— Bill Landis [22:19, 22:35]

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E. Quarterback and Offensive Player Development

• OSU’s Quick Hook: Ohio State moved on from “not good enough” QB play (e.g. McCord) quickly. Penn State stuck with average starters (Clifford, Aller) for years ([27:24], [28:21]).
• Franklin’s Downfall: “James Franklin never really seemed to… swallow your pride and correct your mistakes,” Landis argues ([28:35]).
• Recruiting in Ohio: Penn State’s last three starting QBs all Ohio natives; part proximity, part philosophy ([26:20]).

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F. Matchups to Watch and Individual X-Factors

Ohio State:

• Right Side OL: Phil Daniels (RT), Josh Padilla/Tegra Tshabola (RG) against Deny Dennis-Sutton–Chaz Coleman–Zane Durant. Audrey notes PSU may “stack one side” ([33:50]).
• DL Focus: Tackle Edric Houston and his duel with top PSU guard Vega Ioane ([37:56], [38:41]).

Penn State:

• Defensive Standouts: CB A.J. Harris gets a shot at redemption after a mid-season benching ([36:21]).
• Emerging Talent: Chaz Coleman (DE), the “Chazmanian Devil,” is a true freshman phenom with big internal hype ([34:28]).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Years-Long QB Issues at Penn State:
  “The last time Penn State had a quarterback selected in the first round of the NFL draft… Kerry Collins in 1995.”
  — Doug Lesmerises [30:07]

• On Penn State’s Player Development:
  “This was supposed to be your guy, like, Drew Aller was supposed to be the guy. And like this was your chance to stick it to Ohio State… and then you cycle through OCs.”
  — Audrey Snyder [30:30]

• On Expectations vs. Reality:
  “I do think we probably will see this team set a record for most Penn State NFL draft picks in April. And then we’ll all sit there and say… I don’t think they’re going to win six games this year. So like, how did, like, how did this happen, you know?”
  — Audrey Snyder [13:25]

• Special Teams as Penn State’s Saving Grace:
  “I think the edge here is that Penn State’s been really good at blocking punts this year. And it’s bizarre that when I point to that as, like, that could be the thing…”
  — Audrey Snyder [20:37]

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Additional Themes and Conversation Dynamics

• Big Picture: Hosts consistently tie Penn State’s situation to larger college football trends—especially the coaching carousel and increased willingness to cut ties with high-profile coaches ([39:59]–[41:23]).
• Coaching Carousel Impact: Doug notes, “When you have three of the top 15 teams from the preseason firing their coaches, it’s some indication of where we are in the sport” ([39:59]).
• Insider Banter: The panel jokes about vodka bottles, loyalties, and “non-stop yappers,” underlining the easy rapport and experience shared among the trio ([25:34], [39:23]).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Penn State Coaching Search: [01:31]–[05:50]
• Penn State’s Psychological Hurdle vs. OSU: [06:31]
• All-in Penn State Offseason Prep for OSU: [06:31]–[08:12]
• Run Game Deep Dive (both teams): [13:55]–[20:03]
• Special Teams Edge: [20:37]
• QB/Development Philosophy (Franklin vs. Day): [27:24]–[30:52]
• Key Matchups (OL/DL): [33:50]–[38:42]
• Emerging Defensive Stars: [34:28], [36:21]

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Closing Thoughts

Audrey Snyder’s reporting offers a trenchant look at where Penn State is faltering—loyalty over pragmatism, underperforming talent, and the psychological impact of chasing Ohio State’s standard. Meanwhile, Ohio State’s adaptability and recent championship success are credited to their willingness to self-correct swiftly.

The episode conveys—often with humor and candor—that the OSU-PSU rivalry is as much about identity and aspirational benchmarking as it is about Xs and Os. Fans leave with clear context for the coming game, a nuanced understanding of each program’s state, and several factors to watch for—ranging from trench matchups to the fallout from years of “quarterback loyalty.”

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For More:

• Audrey Snyder: Inside the Lions Substack and [Nittany Dispatch Podcast]
• Bill and Doug Show: Subscribe and follow on YouTube and podcast platforms for further postgame and national picks coverage.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. The very special guest, my favorite person on planet Earth, Audrey Snyder. How are you? It's great to have you here. Legendary Penn State writer and podcaster from the Nittany Dispatch, joining us here on the Bill of Doug Show. Hi, Audrey.

[A]

I'm. I'm honored, Doug. This is. This is what it takes. You know, we go from you forgetting to include me in your preseason poll a couple years ago. So it took losing my job this past year. So you reminding me and we're saying, hey, Audrey, we need your ballot. And then to be, you know, a little bit difficult, I took my time turning it in. I think I was probably your last preseason submission. And I'm going to be honest, Doug, I don't remember what I picked in the preseason. I think I probably went Ohio State 1, Penn State 2. But it's not going to matter because the Penn State part's already wrong. So happy to be here with you guys.

[B]

Yeah. I will say from where we thought this Ohio State, Penn State game was going to be this week, involved in the game, who still has the job they thought they were going to have for this game is Ryan Day. So congratulations to Ryan Day for surviving. The three of us and James Franklin were out on our tucuses. So, like, here we are. And we're still.

[A]

Welcome back, guys.

[B]

It's great to be here. We are here to talk about this Ohio State, Penn State matchup. But first, Bill, like, we kind of want to get an update, don't we?

[C]

Yeah. Audrey, who's going to be Penn State's head coach next year?

[B]

Good question.

[A]

You know, we're easing into it as we record this on October 29th, because that's the other part. When you fire your head coach in mid October, you know, I don't expect Penn State hires a head coach until late November, early December. Like, that's the. I think the timeline, which also makes it weird because you need. You need a coach that's good and relevant enough to have, like a 9, 10 win season, but not good enough to make the playoff, because if you make the playoff, then you're looking, you know, late December. So I think Matt Rule could probably fit that description maybe. Obviously, the link there is that he's super close with athletic director Pat Kraft. Like, these guys are super tight buds. They've got houses, like, diagonal from each other in Cape May, vacation together, like, all of that. So I think that is a really strong link. Obviously, Matt's a state college guy, so you've got the Hometown thing. So I would expect that Nebraska is going to try to do everything they can to him. Maybe they try to throw a contract extension his way. Right. As maybe that becomes the thing. But it's fascinating because obviously with Florida opening then I mean, you have to see like, if does Auburn end up coming open in the, in the next few weeks? Florida State, certainly Mike Norvell didn't get a ringing endorsement because the trickle down effect on all those jobs is going to be crazy. I do not see Brian Kelly coming here. I do not see. See for my own sanity as well.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, I don't see that. I do not see the Lane train coming here. I don't think Lane Kiffin's personality would be a match for this place at all. As one source told me, Lane Kiffin coming here would be entertaining for six months, but after that, not so much. So it's going to be interesting because that trickle down effect of all those other jobs, like, I think you have the Florida candidate pool and then you have the Penn State candidate pool and like, I don't think Eli Drinkwitz is in the same, you know, Penn State pool, but I think he's in the Florida pool. Right. Like, I think you're looking at different guys. Is a, Is a Matt Campbell maybe an intriguing option for a Penn State? Right. Was that a satisf. Satisfactory answer for you, Bill?

[C]

I suppose so, yeah. I just think like when it, when it happened, it was like, slam dunk, Matt Rule, let's go. Right. I feel like that was like the reaction, but as it's gone on, it seems like maybe, like certainly still a possibility, but not maybe not the slam dunk people thought it might be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So the fan base has been interesting. So I had the distinct pleasure of watching the start of the fourth quarter of Penn or not Penn State, of Nebraska, Minnesota a few weeks ago, and Nebraska is just getting taken to the woodshed. I had the distinct pleasure of watching the start of that fourth quarter at a Penn State alumni function with a bunch of alums and the people there saying, see that, Audrey? That's why we don't want Matt Rule. That right there. This is just like James Franklin. And then, as if I didn't have enough fun that evening, I watched the rest of the fourth quarter at Penn State's team hotel outside of Iowa City. And man, you talk about being down bad. You walk into there and it's like, you know, the head coach was just fired that week. It's a lot of people face down at the bar and then the game's on. You get some of the people saying, yeah, see Matt rule, this is why we don't want you like, because obviously they're still upset about James. So. Yeah, so I don't think. I think when you look at rules record in the big games, that's where fans have pause. But I also think the situations have been different, right? Like you understand the complexities at Temple, you understand the situation he was put in at Baylor, you understand trying to bring Nebraska back to where they are now. So I think Penn State's a different spot. Also. This is the first time the Penn State job has been open under normal, non sanctioned circumstances since 1966. So it's been a minute when you really kind of look at the profile of this job. And of course in 66 they promoted from within and went from Rip Angle to Joe Paterno. So they're not going to be promoting from within this time. So there is that.

[C]

They could hire Paterno though.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

What are you doing? We drove the podcast into a wall. So, I mean, obviously Bill and I have talked about the job and we throw stuff around. Like we know 1% of what you know. But the other thing that we've been talking about, the Ohio State and Penn State as we get ready for this game, is the idea of whether Ohio State has sort of loomed over Penn State and that James Franklin won once in 11 tries against Ohio State. And I've been intrigued by the idea of like, obviously this, they're, they're going to take a two year break from each other and not play each other. Could that somehow be a good thing for Penn State to not have to be thinking about Ohio State for two years? But I'm talking about it from the Ohio State perspective. Does Ohio State loom over Penn State in any way? Is it a standard that Penn State tries to strive for and fall short of? Like, is that a real thing you think from the Penn State perspective?

[A]

100%. And Penn State won't probably want to admit this, but here's what I will tell you. Penn State this off season spent so much time looking into how they were going to beat Ohio State, right? And so much of that was, hey, Jim Knowles, welcome to our building. Tell us everything you know. And Knowles sat down with Drew Aller in the spring because Aller told me this when I sat down with him in the summer. And Knowles said, hey, here was our scouting report. This is what we saw in you the last couple years. And one of the comments that Aller made to me Was that, you know, he was putting too much air under the football. And Knowles would say to the dbs, hey, if you get beat, worry about it, because the ball's going to hang in the air long enough that you'll be able to recover. So James Franklin had Jim Knowles sit down with this entire Penn State staff, and they rewatched last year's Penn State, Ohio State game, and there was this back and forth with Jim Knowles and Penn State offensive coordinator Andy Kotelniki in which it was, hey, Andy, why did you do this? Right? And then Jim would say, well, here's why I called this. We did this this way because we saw whatever, right? So there was this idea spread and there was this belief that it's going to be different this year because we spent all this time doing our self scouting, which one of my favorite coaching things is when they say, yes, we spent our bye week doing self scouting about ourself. And I'm like, yeah, got it. But they did all of that in the off season and they did things similarly with Oregon in terms of, okay, you want to start looking ahead at these premier opponents. And I think that's part of what broke this team is when you put so much time and energy into Oregon and you lose in double overtime. And I still don't know what Penn State team showed up for that game because for three quarters it was bad Penn State and it was booing in the stadium. It was, you're down 17 to 3, but the defense looked good. Like Noel's defense looked really good. And then the offense turns it on in the fourth quarter to force overtime. But at the end of the day, I mean, they were a fourth down stop away Penn State from winning that game in the first overtime. So then you go to the second overtime, of course, and bad Aller shows up with the pick. So I think when you put so much on those two games, you're measuring stick games and you fell short in the first one, I think that's where this started to unravel. But yeah, I mean, even from like, different programming benchmarks, we'd hear a lot of, well, what does. Again, things. Things as simple as media access. What does Ohio State do? And like Penn State, like, they want to try to compare themselves to that. And like, I get it, you want to compare yourself to a national championship program and do what they do. But when you have one fluke win in the series, like, it is what it is.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[C]

All right.

[B]

We would invite anyone. If you're watching this, listen, on a Podcast. But like, like, subscribe. Tell a friend about the Bill and Doug Show. We're so grateful to have Audrey Snider here. We also would invite you to join. Not to join, but to visit our [e-mail] r h o b a c k.com it's fall. And, and it's, it's the perfect time because it's not like late in the fall if you order something now, if you order a hoodie or a quarter zip or something like that, like, you're going to get good use out of it now. So why don't you go check it out? Roback.com check out their game day collection and then use this code. Bad 20, bad 20. You'll get 20% off your first order. Because, Bill, like, if you wait too long, if it's November, you're not gonna, you know, like, you're not gonna get as much use out of it. Like, you're still in October here. Like, go do it now. Right, Landis, Go do it now.

[C]

Yeah. You want it for the rest of the football season. You don't want to wait until the playoffs start because you don't know how long it's going to last, right? You know, you got. Ryan Day said you only get 12 guaranteed games in a season, right? Well, now you only got five left for Ohio State, right? So go get your row back here.

[B]

Five guaranteed rollback Saturdays. All right, let's do a little ball talk here with Bill Landis and Audrey Snyder. I came up with kind of like four questions about this game because it, it is an interesting game. Actually, before we get to those questions, I want to double back on something you just said, Audrey, because Ryan Day was saying it this week. It's like, hey, before this season, you thought this was a matchup game. That's what he calls, like, close games where both teams are talented. And he said, well, like, why wouldn't you still think that the only thing that's changed is the quarterback, right? Obviously, the head coach has changed. But, like, all the players that you scouted and were worried about, they're all still there. What you're talking about, with the focus that Penn State put on Ohio State this offseason, could. Do you think that could show up in a meaningful way for Penn State this week? That, like, for everything that's gone wrong, they've been thinking about the Buckeyes for months. Could they put their best foot forward in this game on Saturday in Columbus?

[A]

Maybe. I think that's the only. And I actually, I want to Ask Terry Smith about that again Wednesday night after practice because again, they spend so much time, all these studies, like, does any of that still matter? And the piece where I think you talk about the matchups. The other thing that changed for Penn State, and this might sound crazy because it's a linebacker and whatever, but Penn State lost linebacker Tony Rojas for the season and they were paper thin at the position to begin with. And part of it was, hey, Jim Knowles, let's run this 4, 2, 5. And it'll help make up for some of our linebacking deficiencies. Well, they lost Rojas for the season and after that, this defense has been exposed. And so I think that's the other, the other part to this of, like, they tried coming out with some interesting looks against Iowa to try and make up for it. And that's where you also like, because I go back to, well, is it Jim's defense? And it's complex and players are going to defensive staff meetings trying to understand it, which is a whole other thing. Is it that or is it they just didn't have enough talent? And here's this really good coordinator. So maybe, Doug, to your point, maybe this is what it takes for Penn State to come up for this game, but even the high end talent on this roster hasn't been good enough in Big Ten play. Like, you're denied Dennis Sutton's, your Zane Durant's your cornerback, A.J. harris, like your guys who are supposed to be dudes, like your absolute studs, they've just looked average, you know, So I think that's, that's it too.

[B]

We're always intrigued by the dude count Landis. Right? That matters.

[A]

All the dudes.

[C]

Yeah. I was even looking like, you know, mock draft database, dot com. Right. It's just a website. Like, I'm not saying it's like the gospel for who's good and who's not, but like in their top hundred, I think there's six or seven Penn State players, which is as many as Ohio State's played in all its other games combined so far this year. So it's like you have to respect that there are dudes. But to Audrey's point, if they're not playing like dudes, and I guess you don't have to be as aware of it. But, but I'm still, I'm still on alert for it. There's, I think there's, there's too much talent on Penn State's roster to just simply look past this team and, you know, look ahead to the rest of the season if you're Ohio State.

[A]

I mean, I think Bill, we could see like, we could see a couple splash plays maybe from some guys, right? Like maybe you get a denied. Dennis Sutton somehow gets a strip sack or something like that. But it's just, it's bizarre. And I do think we probably will see this team set a record for most Penn State NFL draft picks in April. And then we'll all sit there and say, well, this is probably a team that I don't think they're going to win six games this year. So like, I don't think they're going to be more eligible. Spoiler alert. And so it's like, well, how did, like, how did this happen? You know?

[B]

Yeah. Wow. Okay. Four ball questions. We'll ask them on both sides. I want to start with the run game for both teams because I just think they're interesting. Landis. I was just looking at some college football data stuff. I think Ohio State is 14th in rushing play success rate this season in the Big Ten and they're 17th in rushing play explosiveness this season. You asked Ryan Day a question about Isaiah west this week and trying to get like more yards after contact. Like, where are you with this run game? What are you expecting to see from the Ohio State run game on Saturday? And do you think it conclude it could include more Isaiah West?

[C]

I think it needs to include more Isaiah West. Just looking at the, the numbers behind like yards after contact, missed tackles, forced like elusiveness ratings or whatever. Any way you can quantify, like do you make guys miss or not? The two best guys in Ohio State's roster are Isaiah Weston, Bo Jackson, but the two true freshmen. There's practically none of that for CJ Donaldson. Some of that is because a decent amount of his carries come inside the like 5 yard line, 10 yard line. So I think you do have to sort of account for that. But even still, like, we know he's probably getting tackled by the first guy that he sees and James Peoples, who I thought might have that just has not had much of that so far this year. And I don't think Ohio State's in the position to keep waiting around to see if that materializes when. When the two freshmen just seem to have it a little better right now. So you know, Ryan, Ryan Day's thing is like the, the run game has been good. Not great, efficient, not explosive. I think that's mostly true. Especially as you said, as he said on Tuesday, you start to account for the RPOs that are kind of baked into that so like they call a run, but they throw a pass and it's like, well, that pass went for 6 yards. Ohio State charts it as a rushing play. You can twist it to make it make yourself feel a little bit better about how you're running the ball. But they got to find some explosion. They gotta find ways to one, get runs to the second level. And then when they get to the second level, make a safety miss, make a corner miss. There's still too many of those guys making tackles. And that's what Isaiah west kind of brought to the table on a smaller work workload. Against Wisconsin, I think it was only nine carries, but a couple of them went for 10 plus yards. There were a couple where he like even like six yard runs where he made a guy missing a hole or made a guy missing the backfield. Ohio State has really just not gotten any of that from any of the running backs prior to that game. So Brian Day like was keeping it close to the vest on how the carries are going to be doled out. But I would imagine we see CJ Donaldson in this situation, short yardage, goal line kind of stuff. But then otherwise, Bo Jackson, who's hopefully healthier coming off that little ankle thing he had against Illinois, and Isaiah west, who I think is emerging as a guy who looks like he could be kind of dangerous with the ball in his hands.

[A]

Bill, I think you were teeing it up. You were ready to say great, not yet elite. You were ready to mention that that.

[C]

Would, that would accurately describe Ohio State's rushing. Actually, that's not true. Great, actually would not describe it. Good, good, not great. And then we can worry about great to elite.

[B]

Yeah. Audrey, I think you certainly could have argued before the season that Katron Allen and Nick Singleton were the best running back combo in the country. As we look at it now, Ktron Allen is averaging 6.24 yards per carry and 87 rushing yards per game. And Nick Singleton is averaging 3.61 yards per carry and 39 rushing yards per game. I think. Right. It had been a thing for a little like earlier times this year. Like why isn't K. Tron Allen getting the ball more? But, but what is up with Nick Singleton? And has this run game for Penn State been anywhere close to as good as many people thought it would be?

[A]

No, the run game's been a letdown and the Nick Singleton thing is fascinating. That's, I think, I mean, in fact, Doug, you might have inspired me today when I was looking at the, like the whole what broke Ohio State or what? You know, they break it. Like, I might have to break this down and steal your idea with like, the ways in which this Penn State season went wrong. And Nick Singleton is part of that. And I think it speaks to two things. One, they went out, got a new position coach in Stan Drayton because jwon Cider left to go to Notre Dame. And the timing of that was also weird because both of these guys committed to come back. Penn State pushes really hard to keep Singleton. And both of these guys come back thinking jwon Cider, who recruited them, who they loved, is going to be their position coach. Then late in the game, Cider goes to Notre Dame. So Penn State goes out, gets Stan Drayton, who his record, like, he's done some really nice things, coached a lot of good backs.

[B]

Former Ohio State assistant.

[A]

Yes. Yep. So part of what maybe he. Actually, I'm gonna have to. Maybe he got in on the film sessions this year too. Like, do you remember anything from your time there Stand anything that can help us? But one of the things that Drayton wanted to do was to help prepare Singleton for the next level and say, hey, rather than just reacting, we want you to read the defense, then react. And it was so obvious when you watch Nick Singleton, even in non conference play, he was overthinking everything. And I asked James Franklin about it, I'm like, kind of like, I think I might have framed it as like, hi, what's wrong with Nick Singleton? Like, what's going on? And Franklin said, it's like, yeah, it's this overthinking. And they're trying to almost get him out of his own head. And that still hasn't happened. And here we are with five games left, and Nick Singleton looks like a shell of himself. K. Tron Allen has been the better back, but James Franklin wouldn't commit to K. Tron Allen because one of, I think the most telling quotes of Franklin's tenure is that quote, I'm loyal. Loyal to a fault. And so you, you know, you do all this work to get Nick Singleton to come back, so you want to play him, but Katron's been your better back and, and he's someone that they can build around. So Terry Smith got it right. They rode Katron Allen as much as they possibly could against Iowa, and I think that's what they'll do against Ohio State.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I think that's kind of. I think that's what they try to do. Okay, but watch, I say this in. Singleton will like rip off an 80 yard run and make me look like a fool.

[B]

I mean, he's still a good player.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, there's still something in there. It's hard. And Ohio State's been through this over the years at times with really good running backs who they. They start overthinking at times. I think Trevor and Henderson went through it. I think J.K. dobbins went through it his sophomore year. Bill, like, it. You. You can see it when it happens. Mike Weber, like, it can be really hard to shake a guy out of that a little bit. All right, Second, Audrey, we understand what Penn State is and isn't, but, like, is there an area where you think Penn State actually could have an edge in this game? Some kind of matchup, or you think something Penn State could do well on Saturday?

[A]

Well, this is going to be really bleak for any Penn State listeners. I think the edge here is that Penn State's been really good at blocking punts this year. And it's. It's bizarre that when I point to that is like, that could be the thing, because one like that also means that they're forcing Ohio State to punt, which I don't have a lot of faith in that right now, but deny Dennis Sutton has been the guy. And again, you talk about players that can change a game. He did it against ucla. He did it also against Northwestern. So in consecutive weeks, this guy blocked punts. Before James Franklin was fired, he said that the special teams have been the most consistent unit this year, which is really a telling remark when you think about it for your other two aspects of the game. So maybe, like, that's the area that they. I mean, you think about it, right? Like in this series, you've had the Saquon Barkley moment, right? Like, you've had some big special teams moments. Obviously, the. The blocked field goal or. Yeah, black field goal to scoop and score. So maybe it's a blocked punt, but, yeah, that's probably not reassuring for Penn State fans.

[B]

This is one of those. It's funny. It's like Penn State saying they're special teams is the best part, and that actually is probably a bad sign. And meanwhile, Landis, we've been talking about, like, what's wrong with Ohio State special teams all. All year, which is like. Well, I guess if the offense and the defense are both working pretty well, then you can complain about these.

[A]

Everything's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Imagine if Ohio State's best unit was specialty.

[B]

You know, that should make Ohio State fans feel good. Like, your special teams being your biggest problem is a great Great sign. Embrace that. Bill, where do you think is the biggest edge for the Buckeyes in this?

[C]

There are a few ways you could go. I would say Ohio State's past defense is just going to render Penn State one dimensional. No one's really been able to throw it on Ohio State yet. And they've played like Washington has a good passing offense when it's clicking.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I even think Illinois has a pretty good passing offense if you look at the production from that game. Illinois did put up like 240 yards, but like half of that was on its last two drives when the game was over, if not more than half of that. So they just shut down everyone they've played trying, trying to throw the ball. And it's a tough spot for Ethan Gronkmeyer. And as a first year starter, second, second career start on the road in the place where you grew up against a team you loved to have to play this defense. We've seen what Matt Patricia and his defense have done to young and experienced quarterbacks already this year, and I'd imagine we'll see a lot of the same in this game and maybe even see Penn State try to protect him and not even attempt to do much. I know Audrey, like Terry Smith was talking about throwing the ball more vertically and I think even working in some new receivers. I thought his assessment of the transfer receivers at Penn State brought in was like pretty damning. But so, so maybe there's like some wrinkles there that I'm not, not anticipating enough that could make things different. But yeah, just, just generally the way Ohio State's defense has smothered people, you expect it to happen again in this game. But, but specifically with the way they've shut down the pass against a team that I just don't know that is equipped to really throw the ball right now is where that the biggest edge probably is.

[B]

Even Grokmeyer from Olintangy High School, obviously in the Columbus suburbs. Audrey is Gronkmire the offensive guy to watch for you in this game. Just.

[A]

Yeah, I think he has to be. Just because it's like you're put in an absolutely difficult spot. I mean, I think Katron Allen's the guy that they have to ride to maybe have a shot. But again, I expect Ohio State's going to load the box and you know, you talk about damning comments, Bill. The one that Terry Smith had after the Iowa game where he came in the media room and he basically said, you know, our special teams hasn't been good enough because. Because that night, they weren't. Our offense can't. We can't hit the intermediate throws, we can't hit the deep throws, and our defense can't get a stop. So. So, yeah, so I'm sitting there, like, literally, that was my response to the meter room. And I'm like, do I follow that up? Like, how do I. What. What do I ask? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of like where they're at. So I'll go with the quarterback again. It's a great storyline because he's Ohio State fan, his mom played basketball at Ohio State. Like, never thought he'd be in this situation, suiting up for Penn State. But, yeah, it's like, good luck, kid. You gotta. And again, somebody has to help him out. That's the other thing. And that goes back to your point, Bill. With the receiving core, it's just not been. You go out, you get three transfers, and devonte Ross has been the best one. The transfer from Troy. Kyron Hudson from USC has pretty much shown what he was at usc, which was like, inconsistent with a flash here and there. And Trevor Pena is like speed sweep kind of guy. Better equipped to be a slot receiver. So it's.

[C]

I had him second. I had him second on my preseason offensive player of the year ballot.

[B]

I thought that was a huge guess.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

Is that.

[A]

I think. Is that a vodka bottle behind you? Were you drinking that before you while you did your ballot?

[B]

We watched. We watched a lot of Syracuse football last year, Bill. Like, we were. We were kind of all in on, like, the whole Syracuse thing. Like, I thought. I thought that was like, maybe the get over the top move for Penn State. Sean Clifford was from Ohio. Drew Aller was from Ohio. Ethan Grunkmeyer is from Ohio. Is that coincidence that Penn State. This is the third straight quarterback for Penn State from the state of Ohio, or is that a plan? Because Ohio State often recruits out of State quarterbacks and Penn State is actually thinking to itself, hey, there's some good quarterbacks in that state we can go get.

[A]

I think maybe they should stop taking quarterbacks from Ohio. Maybe that's part of it. No, I mean, no, I do think there is something to that regionally. The other part is that because Gronkemeier committed to Mike Yoursich and Yoursage was the guy who got in early on Aller. So, like, Ohio guy. Ohio guy. I think there was some of that. God, Clifford was here so long, I don't even remember who would have recruited him. Okay. Because John Donovan might have Been might have been John Donovan, who's James's first OC here. Yeah. I do think some of it is proximity and that you've. You're able to get these guys up to campus quite a bit. And they've always felt like they kind of had the diamond in the rough with. With all of these guys, really. And, you know, here you are coming down the home stretch with Aller, and we've had this debate on the beat, which is not really great. When we're like, okay, one game. Are you picking Sean Clifford to start or Drew Aller? Like, that's not.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's not, you know, how we expected it to play out that we're having those conversations. Right. So one game, who you taking, Doug?

[B]

I think I root for the Meteor. Like, I don't know what to do. Which. Which, again, like. And it's hard to talk about this because it's. I. I like, you know, they're. They're young men doing the best they can. I think it's like an indictment of. Of. It's an indictment of Penn State's quarterback development, which is, like, what's the common denominator? A lot. It's like, James Franklin has not, like, developed quarterbacks to the next step. But I also have been thinking about this. I didn't have this down as a question. Bill, I'll ask you first. And Audrey, see what you think. Like, when Ohio State got some quarterback play that wasn't quite good enough, Ryan day and Kyle McCord parted ways, and they didn't run that back for a second season. And James Franklin hung in with four years of starting for Sean Clifford and three years of starting for Drew Aller. Bill, do you think, like, is there anything there. Could you have imagined, like, if. If Ryan Day was coaching Sean Clifford and Drew Aller, do you think they would have been the starters for as long as they were.

[C]

No shot? No, you can't. You can't let average, like, average quarterback play, like, sustained, right? Like, when you're trying to play for what Penn State and Ohio State are trying to play for, it's like. It's ruthless. But I. I think you have to be with that position, right?

[A]

You.

[C]

If you can't make that evaluation after a year or two that this guy's not good enough, then. Then you're just bad at evaluating quarterback play. Ryan Day, you know, like, you dig them a little bit, right? Because they didn't develop Kyle McCord to be ready by the time he was in his third year. But when it was Apparent that he wasn't. They didn't let it fester. They just said, like, no, you're not going to be our starter. And they went a different direction and they won a national title. So you just have to be willing to swallow your pride and correct your mistakes. And I think Ohio State is pretty good at that. And James Franklin never really seemed to.

[B]

Do it, like ever a conversation. Audrey, could you have ever imagined either James Franklin giving up on either Sean Clifford or Drew Aller saying like, thanks for the service, but no thanks, we're going to go get Fernando Mendoza kind of thing?

[A]

You know what? Now that you say this, Doug, I'm gonna have to dive more into this, my six part series on how it all went wrong for Penn State, because this is absolutely one of the points and I need to remember to hit on this because it goes back to what I said earlier about James and the loyal. Loyal to a fault. He would not do that. Like, these were his guys, he was going to ride it out with them. And in the end that's what got him. Because ultimately I think you can also say, well, what does the ideal quarterback look like for this offense? Because they cycled through so many ocs that you look at Andy Kotelniki and what they did at Kansas and you say, well, Drew Aller is not a fit for that. Like Bo Pebula would have been a better fit. But then you lose Bo to Missouri. And so I think that. But it goes even deeper than this. Like, this is not just a James Franklin couldn't develop quarterbacks problem. You know, Doug, the last time Penn State had a quarterback selected in the first round of the NFL draft, I.

[B]

Do know this because I use this stat 4,000 times because Kerry Collins was the last Big Ten quarterback selected in the first round until Dwayne Haskins from Ohio State was selected in the 2019 draft. So Kerry Collins in 1995. Right? Like that not only is it a Penn State drought, it was like, oh, well, those days are over for the Big Ten, but they're not over for Penn State, which is the problem.

[A]

No, and that's the thing. It's like you, this was supposed to be your guy. Like Drew Aller was supposed to be the guy. And like this was your chance to stick it to Ohio State because, I mean, they wanted him too. Like, wasn't that. I remember down at the end there was some, like, Ohio State, like, are they going to try to flip him? Aren't they? Right? Am I remembering that correctly?

[C]

Yeah, I think they were not super public about it, but they were, they were making phone calls.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's like you, we were, you were able to hang on to your guy and then you cycle through ocs. But no, that was part of the problem with Franklin and I think it also speaks to this era with Nil and James was so this would be 0.7 in my six part series. James was so hellbent on preserving the locker room dynamic that they had money that they could spend and he didn't want to do it because it was a matter of like, I don't want to upset the guys in the room. And I think that again goes back to the quarterback situation. And you know, we've gotten into some fan conspiracy theorists around here because what else do you do when you're covering a three win team in October? You know, some fans have said, well, what if, you know, Penn State maybe was hoping that Aller would have turned pro after last year? And they maybe would have had that conversation behind the scenes and would have said, hey, Bo Prabula, you stay here, this job's yours next year. Like, could that have maybe. Would that have, you know, had things change or turn out a little bit differently? I don't know. But it's at least an interesting discussion because you're saying, okay, like Prabula could give this offense some things that in the end Aller just didn't have. I don't know, is he maybe a fifth round selection in the draft? Like, I mean, that's the same round Sean Clifford went in because some crazy team called the Green Bay packers thought it was a fifth round pick. And I, you know, I mean there's.

[B]

There'S still, I mean, I, I, there's certainly been some Cleveland Browns Drew Aller chatter, like bring the Northeast Ohio family home.

[A]

But he was, they were Brown season ticket holders and he grew up liking Baker Mayfield and, and he wore a headband back in the day. Yeah.

[B]

So like at some point like that, you know, a year ago that was like a first round conversation. Like. Yeah, what round conversation would that be? Now they can add that to the pile of quarterbacks in Cleveland. Bill, who's the offensive guy for Ohio State you're gonna have your eye on in this game?

[C]

I'll combine two people in the one and just say the right side of the offensive line, Philip Daniels at right tackle, and I guess it'll probably end up being three people because there's this question, right, Is Josh Padilla going to start at right guard or is Tiger Shabola going to start at right guard. I thought Ryan Day's answer to that question, where he basically said, like, we like what Joshua D. Is doing in practice. We think he's played well in games. He's not been perfect. He has solidified himself as a top six offensive lineman, was basically him saying, we're still going to let Tiger start, but Josh Padilla is going to mix in. So you'll see both of them and that'll be an ongoing thing. But it was, it was a real problem, that right side, especially against Wisconsin. And as we talked about, you know, Penn State's maybe defensive talent has not played up to the level people were expecting it to, but they're still talented, right? So deny Dennis Sutton against Phil Daniels. Chaz Coleman playing the first of what may be many games in Ohio Stadium against Philip Daniels, Zayn Durant on the inside, right, that. That's where I'll be watching. Because that's just the thing, like, even if this game ends up not really being competitive, which is certainly possible, that is a spot that Ohio State needs to keep working at just sort of long term if it wants to win a national title. So I think it's there. You have to look.

[A]

You know, I might, I might. I might tip my hand here a little bit. This could be a scouting report thing. If Ryan Day is listening, if Matt Patricia's listening. Penn State did do this earlier this year, actually, against Oregon. It was the first they. They've done it. Maybe they run it back in this game where they'll take the night, Dennis Sutton and line them out pretty wide and then drop Durant in next to him. So they will try to sometimes stack one side. So maybe that's what they try to do here.

[B]

That could be a problem. That Chaz Coleman reference, obviously to the true freshman from Ohio who's been lighting it up at defensive end for Penn State. Our Penn State friends freaked out about losing him in the transfer portal.

[A]

Audrey. Heck, yes. I think that's the, you know, that's the. Jim Knowles gave Chaz Coleman the nickname this preseason. He called him the Chasmanian Devil. And like, you know, we're just trying to get to know this guy. And he's like, yes, the Chasmanian Devil. And we're like, what? Who? But then we quickly figured out who Jim Knowles was referring to. And I mean, the, the hype for Chaz Coleman was unlike really any I had heard in 15 seasons doing this for a defensive player in the preseason. Like, they were all in on this guy. And James Franklin's telling us that he's special and he's, he's built differently that Franklin used to go through and have the players like rank themselves in terms of red light, yellow light green light, like green, you're gonna burn your red shirt. Like, where do you think you are? And Franklin told the story that they're sitting there with the freshman and you know, they get the Chaz Coleman and Chaz is like, well, I think I'm a yellow. And everybody in the room is like, dude, what are you talking about? You're definitely a green. Like, you're the most ready of all of us. But he just kind of wasn't like really sure about himself. But yeah, I mean, I think this is, this is a guy that you have to try to work to keep and it's going to be really hard. And sure, Penn State was able to edge out Ohio State once, but I mean, I, I will say too, like, does that, does it maybe help Penn State where you say, okay, the next head coach, you're, you're going to keep Jim Knowles. That's the preferences, your DC So what's Chaz's relationship like, Jim? Does that help? I don't know, but I think there's a guy with some Penn State ties that I'm sure would love to get his hands on a young Chaz Coleman. Mr. Larry Johnson, right?

[C]

Larry Johnson.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, Audrey Penn State defensive player that you'll have an eyeball on in this game, cornerback A.J.

[A]

Harris. Back in the preseason, back when we thought this was a top five matchup, I was intrigued by Harris and thought that, you know, this is a guy who. Highly coveted prospect, started his college career at Georgia, then comes to Penn State, wasn't tested in non conference play, and then got benched after getting burnt on a touchdown against Northwestern. I still think there's a lot of upside there, but again, these receivers can make DBs look absolutely silly. I do think collectively Penn State has a good secondary, but this is a chance for A.J. harris to show a little bit, maybe what he can do. But small order for sure.

[B]

Yeah, he was really an important part last year, right. He and Jalen Kimber, a corner like two transfers came in that really mattered. And that's, that's just super surprising to think. I mean, again, Ohio State's kind of been through this at times. Like Denzel Burke had some struggles after being a really good cornerback for Ohio State. But Bill, like, I don't. He didn't. Never got benched after giving up a touchdown. Like that's Kind of like a. You hear that about, like, how good A.J. harris has been and can be, and you hear that, and it's just a little shocking, you know, it's gonna be.

[C]

A really tough thing to bounce back from, too. Yeah, I was actually surprised to see that. Like, I knew it was, like, a bad play, but he's such an important player. Yeah.

[A]

And it was also one of those things, too, where, like, we. Because it happened and we didn't know, and we're like, oh, is he hurt? And Terry was like, no, we pulled him and like, obviously, you know, they played him against Iowa and he was fine. We really don't have to worry about the Iowa passing attack much. So it's a different. Different situation.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Landis, defensive player for the Buckeyes to watch on Saturday.

[C]

I think I'm looking at Edric Houston in this game. He did not roll the poster.

[B]

That is. That is your relationship with that?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Just. It's really, really hoping my. My preseason prediction about him ends up looking good. So we'll see. Obviously, he's been banged up for. For most of the year. Didn't play against Illinois. I thought the last two weeks or the last week. Excuse me, the last game against Wisconsin, he started to play pretty well. I thought he played really well against Minnesota and, like, had the. Had to leave that game early, so. You're right. I've. I'm. I have a predisposition toward him, toward wanting to him to be good, but I really do feel like he could be starting to figure it out a little bit. And, you know, Vengo Awane on. On Penn State's offensive line. He's back, right, Audrey? He's gonna play this week?

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Yeah, he's like. Like, maybe the best guard in the country. So that's a heck of a matchup for. For Edric and anyone on Ohio State's defensive line, it comes up matched up against him. So Taiwan Malone, who's played a lot sort of in. In the place of Houston or, you know, in tandem with him, I think has played pretty well, but Houston still has a higher ceiling and, like, if he. If he actually is starting to figure it out, like, halfway through his sophomore year, which would not be unheard of, that'd be a heck of a thing for Ohio State's defensive line as it looks to bolster the tackle position a little bit. So just looking to see if it does really feel like he's starting to build some momentum at that spot.

[B]

Okay, Audrey Snyder, you're on substack you're with the Nittany Dispatch in the podcast and YouTube world, but just make sure the folks can find your great Penn State coverage.

[A]

Yep, the substack is Inside the Lions, so inside the lions.substack.com and like Doug so eloquently put it, the podcast isn't it. You just dispatch we're twice a week because we can't all just be, you know, non stop yappers. Like some shows. I mean, some shows really can. They can go to town. We're more of a twice a week operation, but a little more during the coaching search as needed. We just, we don't have as much juice on the nitty dispatch, but we try, we try our hardest. But yeah, the written work is on Inside the Lions.

[B]

I think non stop Yapper is perhaps the best description of me that I've ever heard. So I would do 11 shows a week if Landis let me. But Landis is like, we should write. People think writing is good. And I'm like, why would you write it when you can say it? Audrey. Great coverage. We would recommend anybody who cares about Penn State and even like, if you're an Ohio State fan or a college football fan and you normally maybe are not that interested in the day in and day out workings of Penn State football like you are now. This is super interesting to see a program like this. It's a lens through which to view all of college football. The number one story in college football this year, partly because everybody seems bored with Ohio State being the number one team in the country, is this coaching carousel and how many high profile people have been fired. When you have three of the top 15 teams from the preseason firing their coaches, it's some indication of where we are in the sport. I don't think it's. The sport is on fire the way some people think. I think there's just some instances of some good programs having high expectations that they're falling short of. So you fire a guy and you can always find the money. I don't know that has changed that much. But Penn State's super interesting right now. So subscribe to Audrey substack and like get all the ins and outs of this. Audrey. Because it's a Penn State story, but it is a college football story when a program like this is making a move like this.

[A]

Yeah. And when I covered all of my 12 part series on where it all went wrong for the 2025 Nittany Lions. Well, we'll outline it all because. No, you're right, Doug. I mean, this is. And so many people, as you know, the firing came down the stretch, they're like, well, they're not going to do it because of the money. And I was like, guys, there's mitigation in the contract. Like, Penn State is going to probably end up not paying much money to James Franklin because he's going to coach somewhere. Like, that's the other side of this. He's going to coach somewhere else. And it's like, okay, you owed him 8 million a year. If school X pays him 6 million a year, you owe him 2. Right? Like, and if you end up keeping Jim Knowles, like, so you're going to eat some money on the OC and the, the position coach contracts. But it's this the name, name of the game of the sport right now, between the portal, you can flip a roster quickly. I mean, Penn State's probably gonna have a whole new roster. So that's part of what you can get over it. Inside the lines, new coach, new roster and coverage of all of it.

[B]

Audrey Snyder, she's as good as it gets. Thanks so much for taking time out of your week to talk to us about Penn State versus Ohio State. Bill and I will both be at that game on Saturday. We will have a post game show. We will have our, our picks on Thursday for this Ohio State, Penn State game. We'll have our national picks on Friday. All of that here on YouTube. Like subscribe tell a friend for now. Thanks to Audrey. On behalf of Bill, I'm Doug and that was the Bill and Doug show.