Ohio State's Bo Jackson and can he avoid the Buckeye Curse for Year 2 running backs?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Episode Title: Ohio State's Bo Jackson and can he avoid the Buckeye Curse for Year 2 running backs?
Air Date: February 24, 2026
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis

This episode dives deep into the “Year 2 Curse” for Ohio State Buckeye running backs, discussing whether Bo Jackson can avoid the sophomore slump that has affected several high-profile RBs in program history. Doug and Bill analyze Ohio State’s recent history at running back, assess the unique situation facing Bo Jackson, and provide a big-picture, data-backed perspective on what’s realistic for his upcoming sophomore season.

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Key Discussion Points

The Sophomore Running Back “Curse” at Ohio State

Timestamp: 00:48 – 04:39

• Bill sets the table, noting his recent article on the history of 1,000-yard freshman running backs both nationally and specifically at Ohio State.
• Five Ohio State true freshmen have rushed for 1,000 yards: Bo Jackson (2025), TreVeyon Henderson (2021), J.K. Dobbins (2017), Maurice Clarett (2002), Robert Smith (1990).
• Notable: Maurice Clarett and Robert Smith did not play their sophomore year at OSU due to off-field issues (Clarett’s suspension and Smith’s academic dispute).
• Doug contextualizes issues around freshman eligibility pre-1974 and sets the baseline for comparisons.

Quote [02:29, Doug]:
"Robert Smith and Maurice Claret did not play their second years at Ohio State... that's not applicable to Bo Jackson... but it's reflective of the era and circumstances."

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Lessons from J.K. Dobbins and TreVeyon Henderson

Timestamp: 04:24 – 07:53

• Dobbins and Henderson had stellar freshmen seasons but experienced sophomore slumps—Dobbins due to a timeshare with Mike Weber, Henderson from a (then-undisclosed) foot injury muddling his play and confidence.
• The hosts highlight the mental and emotional challenges for young RBs after early success and emphasize the need to address both physical and psychological aspects going into Year 2.

Quote [05:54, Doug]:
"I do think there is a mental-emotional component for a second-year running back who is very successful as a freshman that Ohio State needs to make sure they have handled with Bo Jackson."

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Temptations, Timeshares & Managing the Workload

Timestamp: 07:53 – 13:32

• Discussion on how teams often try to protect sophomore RBs from burnout or injury by introducing more of a timeshare, sometimes destabilizing the clear RB1 role from year one.
• In Dobbins’ sophomore year, he had more carries but less production than as a freshman; mental pressure, adjusting to sharing the load, and the nature of the RB room are all factors.
• Doug and Bill debate whether it's best for Bo Jackson to remain lead back or to find a true co-starter to prevent overuse.

Quote [10:28, Doug]:
"It’s almost like because you were the number one guy, they want you to be a timeshare guy in year two. That plays with the head of the still pretty young running back."

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Bo Jackson’s Fit, Skill Set & 2025 Usage

Timestamp: 13:32 – 16:23

• Bo was gradually brought into the starting role last year; OSU limited his carries early to keep him fresh.
• There is no clear veteran 1,000-yard backup behind Bo, which might sway the staff to give him a fuller workload unless Isaiah West or another back seizes the opportunity.
• Bill notes the RB2 job is open for competition, and a rotating cast could step up, especially with Bo and West both recovering from shoulder procedures this spring.

Quote [14:06, Bill]:
"I think they would prefer [a true complement]. Yeah, for this year, whether that’s Isaiah West, Jacoby Jackson, the guy they brought in from Florida...or one of these freshmen coming in. It’s a weird room."

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Spring Football Outlook & “Next Man Up”

Timestamp: 23:01 – 25:28

• Bo Jackson and Isaiah West are likely to be limited this spring; other backs (Legend Bay, Favor Aki, Turbo Rogers, or grad transfer Jacoby Jackson) could get reps and surprise.
• Spring reps may not decide the fall pecking order but could be telling for the RB2 competition.

Quote [24:04, Bill]:
"I think you’re gonna see a lot of Favor Aki and a lot of Legend Bay in the spring...spring is weird for running backs because there’s not a lot of full contact—a chance for a spark, but hard to get carried away."

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National Data on Freshman-to-Sophomore Running Backs

Timestamp: 25:28 – 27:34

• Bill’s data dive: Among 21 national freshman 1,000-yard backs (past 10 years), the biggest sophomore drop-offs are usually attributed to injuries.
• Only five nationally saw major sophomore leaps; most had minor dips or held steady; true collapse is rare if health holds.

Quote [25:49, Bill]:
"The guys who really fell off...eight of them, it was because of injury. There weren’t a lot of guys who had a thousand-yard freshman year and a 900-yard sophomore year without a clear reason."

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Running Back Usage, Injury Risk, and Program Trends

Timestamp: 27:34 – 30:06

• The wear-and-tear on young RBs is a factor; proper management and recovery is crucial.
• OSU’s handling of Bo Jackson’s workload as a freshman is seen as pragmatic and purposeful, potentially lowering sophomore risk.
• Bo’s route to a starting job was less direct than Dobbins or Henderson—he’s less of a five-star phenom, more of an “emergent” player.

Quote [28:21, Doug]:
"I do think Ohio State did a really good job with Bo Jackson last year...they figured out it was Bo but didn’t lean on him too hard, had him ready down the stretch."

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Bo Jackson’s Future Path: Superstar, Timeshare, or Steady Starter?

Timestamp: 30:06 – 32:38

• Both hosts differentiate Bo’s situation from Dobbins/Henderson: Bo’s freshman year was good but not “too good” (i.e., not impossible to follow up).
• His modest statline leaves room for realistic progress, rather than an unsustainable standard.

Quote [32:28, Doug]:
"It’s almost, this is a ridiculous thing to say—it’s not true at all—but [Bo] was good but he wasn’t too good...a little bit different, something to build off."

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Unique Pressure of 2026: NIL, Transfer Rumors & Human Factor

Timestamp: 34:28 – 35:27

• Unlike his predecessors, Bo faced genuine questions about whether he’d leave via transfer (with rumored NIL negotiations). The external expectations are higher and the public scrutiny, greater.
• Will contract-like pressures impact his on-field play? The human toll of increased attention and compensation is acknowledged.

Quote [35:22, Doug]:
"Will he do it to himself? Will that be it? That’s a very human reaction...the pressure that it put on us."

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Hosts’ Confidence Meter: Likelihood of a Sophomore Slump

Timestamp: 36:14 – 40:00

• Doug is “55% aware” of a potential Year 2 letdown, based on OSU precedent and the inherent challenges.
• Bill is closer to “30%,” citing Bo’s “good but not too good” freshman year, returning offensive line, and new offensive coordinator as positives.
• Nationally, most backs just above the 1,000-yard mark as freshmen often saw small sophomore dips—those with significant downturns were almost all injury-related.

Quote [37:14, Doug]:
"If there are Ohio State fans out there who are like ‘Bo Jackson, 1800 yards, All-American, watch out, baby,’ I think there’s a very real opposite side—we’ve seen it."

Quote [37:22, Bill]:
"I’m maybe more like 30 percent, because I do—the good but not too good factor influences me there."

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On J.K. Dobbins’ Year 2 Slump (Doug, 07:53):
  "He had more carries, but...350 fewer yards. In Year 3, he goes nuts. Sometimes, the valleys prepare the way for the peak."
• On Handling RB Workload (Bill, 13:22):
  "You see more teams going away from the 250-carry-a-year bell cow to spreading it around to two or three players."
• On Bo Jackson’s Mental Approach (Doug, 32:38):
  "Bo, so far, is a little more of a man of few words—he just maybe takes it as it comes because he wasn’t a five-star, because he wasn’t a running back his whole life."
• On NIL and Year 2 Pressure (Doug, 34:28):
  "Now you gotta raise—maybe not just what you did on the field, but now you gotta live up to the dough, man."

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Segment Timestamps Guide

• 00:48 — Setting up the “Curse of the Second-Year Buckeye Running Back”
• 04:24 — Dobbins and Henderson: Cautionary Tales
• 07:53 — J.K. Dobbins’ Statistical Drop and Mental Toll
• 13:32 — Debating RB1 vs. Timeshare Approaches
• 16:23 — Who Could Seize the RB2 Job?
• 23:01 — Spring Football: Opportunities for Backups
• 25:28 — National Data on Sophomore Backs
• 27:34 — Risks and Lessons in RB Usage
• 30:06 — Bo's Sophomore Ceiling is Manageable
• 34:28 — Year 2 Pressure: NIL & Expectations
• 36:14 — How Concerned Should Fans Be? (Confidence Meter)

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Conclusion

Doug and Bill provide a nuanced, data-driven, and empathetic examination of Bo Jackson’s coming sophomore season. They avoid both alarmism and unreasoned optimism, instead rooting their analysis in Buckeye history, player personalities, and modern college football realities. If you’re an Ohio State fan wondering whether Bo Jackson will sidestep the “second year curse,” this episode offers clarity, context, and plenty to ponder as spring football approaches.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Doug Lamoris and Bill Landis. Next time you hear or see us, we will be at the NFL Combine. So look for that on this YouTube feed on this podcast channel. Also look for it at our substack where we will be doing a show, a substack show from there we'll be writing from there. We will be at the NFL Combine on Wednesday and Thursday. You can find us at billanddugosu.substack.com but before we hop in the car and drive to Indy, Bill Landis, we wanted to do a show on something you just wrote for our substack that you didn't exactly approach it this way. But for this show I would like to call the Curse of the second Year Buckeye Running back.

[B]

Yeah, so I, yes, it was interesting going through the, I went through the history of thousand yard freshman. So Bo Jackson was the fifth I looked at from a more national perspective, which I think maybe make you feel good or you can look at it from the specific Ohio State perspective and perhaps not feel so good.

[A]

Yeah. So you, so I thought we may as well like for our Ohio State audience here. Like I think if you want to read the more national perspective and we'll get into it a little bit, you can certainly go do that over on the sub stack. But why don't you run us through how many other true freshmen Ohio State running backs gained a thousand yards to set the baseline here. And then I think we can talk about maybe what is similar or different between those other Ohio State running backs and then Bo Jackson who of course rushed for 10, 90 yards last season for Ohio State.

[B]

Yeah. So at Ohio State there have been five true freshmen. There have actually been six total freshmen. But Mike Weber was a red shirt freshman when he did it in 2016. So I didn't, I didn't include him. This is just two true freshmen. Freshman Bo Jackson became the fifth this past season. Before him it was Travion Henderson in 2021, J.K. dobbins in 2017, Maurice Claret in 2002 and Robert Smith in 1990. And I can't always Freshmen weren't eligible to play before 1974. Is that right? Like, like right before Archie, I think.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. Freshmen weren't allowed to play. So it's not like there's a prolonged history of true freshmen starting running backs at Ohio State. But only five have, have reached a thousand yards.

[A]

Yeah. And then it got like a little dicey for kind of everybody. By the way, Archie 772 guards as a true freshman. Robert Smith and Maurice Claret did not play their second years at Ohio State. And so I don't think that's applicable to Bo Jackson. But I guess at the moment, briefly, in the off season, where people were wondering, is Bo Jackson going to be a Buckeye next year? That would have been the Robert Smith. Maurice Claret, you're a product of your era. Like, things are happening in college football, and the result is you don't take the field in year two. But you may. I maybe. I don't know if people might run them through what happened with Robert Smith and Maurice Claret.

[B]

So I. So the Robert Smith thing was, like, was a dispute over academics. Right. With an assistant coach that led him to not play football in 1991. He, I think, instead ran, was on the track and field team, and then came back to the football team in 1992. And then Maurice Claret got suspended and never played for Ohio State again.

[A]

Yeah, tried to go to the NFL and like, all the crazy, all that stuff. So, like, Bo Jackson, like, hey, you're great. You had a thousand yards. Wait, you're leaving because everybody's a free agent. That would have been, again, like, emblematic of the times, but it didn't happen. But I do think, because these are very. The, the other two examples are very fresh, I think, in the minds of Ohio State fans. And what happened with J.K. dobbins and Trayvon Henderson is instructive, I think. Do you believe that there are perhaps lessons to be learned, if not like, like, alerts maybe, but just like, hey, let's like, keep this in mind.

[B]

Yeah, the Dobbins year, definitely the Henderson year, involved in injury. But even, I think even in that, there probably are still some lessons you can take away from it. You know, presuming, knock on wood, that Bo Jackson is healthy as a sophomore.

[A]

The trivia, like, we didn't really know about the injury to travy on, though, until, like, later in the year. Right.

[B]

Like, until after the fact. Yeah. He was going through the year and not being effective. And no one. Yeah. No one was telling us, like, hey, Travion doesn't look right. No one's like, he's hurt. Like, he's playing on a broken foot. Okay. That would have been helpful four months

[A]

ago as it was unfolding. I think perhaps based on what happened with J.K. dobbins, a lot of people were wondering, is this what happened? But, like, this is sophomore slump. This is. You feel some pressure, you're trying to hit Home runs. You're not just taking what is there. I think you could watch Trayvon Henderson in that year and it would feel like, okay, like here's his opportunity to make a cut and he's not doing it. Is he not seeing it? I think it's worth being aware of the idea of when you are great that young at the running back position and they just hand you the ball and tell you to go and it's kind of, certainly not all on you, but the opportunity is kind of there in your hands. I do think there is. As much as Trayvon had a broken foot for sure, there also, I think was some mental component to Travion as he was even like dealing with the broken foot. And it felt like maybe he and the coaching staff weren't exactly on the same page. And are you making it public? Are you, are you not making it public? And J.K. dobbins certainly dealt with that and said that after the fact. I do think there is a mental emotional component for a second year running back who is very successful as a freshman that Ohio State needs to make sure they have handled with Bo Jackson. And that is not about Bo Jackson. That is about the reality of being a young football player coming off a success in year one who has the ball in your hands.

[B]

I think that's right. Yeah, I think that's, yeah, that's probably true of, of most positions. But for Bo to like kind of like elevate himself into this conversation. The guys, like I think of some of the names we're talking about here, like these, these are all time great running backs in the program and some guys who even like across the sport are, are held in pretty high regard. Right. So you have to, I don't think they'll like guard against like whatever Bo Jackson thinking. He's good, right? His name's Bo Jackson. He's had to deal with that for a while. I think he's got a pretty good handle on that kind of stuff. But you know, you have to battle complacency a little bit. I guess you have to, you have to make sure you're, you're putting the right things in place to help those players take the next step. I think even in a successful season, I think you have to be aware of sort of what the areas for improvement are. Because that was the one thing with JK or not jk with Travion he was hurt. But then that second year was also when the conversation of like, well, maybe he just, he doesn't see things great, like kind of kind of started to bubble up. And I, like, followed him throughout the rest of his career and is even following him now into the NFL. And it's like, were we not noticing that as much as we should have when he was a true freshman, he was just running by guys because he was super fast and new and exciting. So I think there's like, those kind of things too. You have to. I don't know if guard against is the right word, but. But don't get distracted by, oh, boy, a thousand yards.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's nice. And. And miss sort of the deficiencies in a player's game that need to be worked on going into that second year.

[A]

I think it's just very human. You know, I think this is. This is not. This is not like to anticipate anything negatively, but it is just that it. That it has happened with Ohio State. J.K. dobbins was so interesting, as you wrote in the story. 1403 yards as a freshman in 2017, average 7.2 yards per carry. 2018. Mike Weber is more back in the picture and healthy. They're kind of sharing that load. And J.K. dobbins goes from 1403 yards to 1053 yards. He goes from 7.2 yards per carry to 4.6 yards per carry. And in the back half of the year, six of eight games in the back half of the year, he averaged under 4 yards per car. Like, he just, he started out okay, and then it was just like he had a game where he averaged two yards per carry. It's like, what is. What is happening here? And when you look at it, like, in comparison, he averaged 4.6 yards per carry that year. Mike Weber averaged 5.5 yards per carry. So, like, that's not a gigantic gap, but it is a yard better, right? Like, the other guy was kind of was like, kind of doing it a little bit better. He actually had more carries. He had more carries in year two, but. And 350 fewer yards. And then in year three, he goes nuts. He averages. He has 2003 yards. He has 6.7 yards per carry. And he's like, you know, as good of a running back as there is in the country right there with Jonathan Taylor. The thing that I think, as you think about J.K. dobbins that is most instructive about this is Mike Weber, J.K. dobbins, freshman year. Mike Weber was part of the deal, but he was hurt early. That kind of opened the door for JK. They wound up. Dobbins had 194 car. Weber had 101 in the. In the next year, Dobbins had 203 carries. Weber had 172. And then his third year, Dobbins had 301 carries. Master Teague as the second back had 135, was like third team, all Big Ten or something. He had like 789 rushing yards as a clear number two running back. Here's the thing that I think is maybe simultaneously like a temptation for a team to do the right thing to do, but also maybe the wrong thing to do when you have a true freshman who had a. An above average load to carry. Right? There's just you did a thousand yards. But I mean, like, you know, Bo Jackson's up there, you know, didn't quite get to 200 carries, but like, he's carrying the ball a good amount.

[B]

Yeah, he would have if he was the starter from day one. He didn't. He didn't become the starter until the Minnesota game last year.

[A]

Now, I will say, like, to their credit, with Bo Jackson, last year he had more than 15 carries against Washington. He had 17 for 80. And then he didn't have more than 15 carries in a game until November. And we all remember, we were kind of watching that. It's like, why don't they make him the number one back? And it's like, well, I think they did make him the number one back. They're just not overusing him because they want to make sure that he's healthy at the end of the year. His, the end of his high school career was a little wonky. So, like, you don't want to put too much on him. And I think they actually managed it well. But do you believe that this is a temptation or perhaps even the right direction for a team? If you've used a guy as a true freshman, you perhaps are even more aware of not overusing him in year two. And the result is maybe you are more open to having him share the load. That if you're like, oh man, like he did, he was kind of the number one back last year, maybe let's try to get him more help in year two. And then that guy's like, hey, why am I now? All of a sudden I was the starter, now I'm sharing it. What are we doing? That is a little bit of the vortex that I am curious if teams could get caught up in that. It's almost like because you were the number one guy, they want you to be a timeshare guy in Year two. And that plays with the head of the still pretty young running back.

[B]

I think it definitely happens. I don't. I don't know how prevalent it is, like, because like I went through the, all the, like, more national examples and like that. That definitely popped up in all the, like, in all the instances or the guys who got better, the guys who like, kind of plateaued and the guys who got worse. Like, you saw that example, I think in, in all three kind of data sets. I do think for like the J.K. dobbins specific example, it's like you had a guy in the room who had already rushed for a thousand yards of Mike Weber. Right. So, yeah, that's. That's the thing that interests me with, with bo. It's like, I don't know. That track record of production doesn't exist in the room aside from him. So I like, might they look for the opportunities to create that scenario of more of a tandem because they relied on both so much as a freshman? Maybe. I think Ohio State's track record probably tells you the answer to that is yes. At least like Ryan Day's track record tells you the answer to that question is yes. Especially the way the. The national championship season went with. With Travion and Quinshon. I don't know if I would apply that to like the entire sport, but I. Yeah, I mean, everyone's sort of cognizant of the wear and tear you're putting on young running backs. I think you see a lot of teams going or just running backs in general. I think you see more teams going away from the 250 carry a year Bell cow kind of guy to. Can we spread this around, you know, to two or three players?

[A]

I think we're certainly more down that road than we were in 2018, when all of a sudden JK Dobbins was more sharing the load after being the number one guy as a true freshman. Right. That we've.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Eight years later. 2026 is different than 2018 in that regard. It's much more common. If you were the running backs coach, if you were Carlos Laughlin, if you were Ryan Day, if you were sort of deciding this for 2026 as it stands right now in your mind, would Bo Jackson be the number one running back and anybody else is a backup to him, or would you be interested in seeing if Isaiah west or perhaps somebody else could be a true compliment sort of co number one with Bo Jackson?

[B]

I. I'd see if someone could be a compliment. Yeah. I think Bo, I Don't know if I put this in a story or not. Bo ended up with like 45 of the running back carries last year because you had C.J. donaldson as like the short yardage guy. Isaiah west was like the Non short yardage RB2 for a chunk of the year. Then like James Peoples was getting like some, some scraps here and there too. So you kind of had kind of like three guys filling the second running back role and then like the first guy was pretty clear, I think for Ohio State. So. And I don't know if they were in, in doing that with like the three behind, but we're hoping that someone would kind of emerge and take that second running back spot, which I, I guess never quite happened, so. But I think they would prefer that to happen. Yeah, yeah. For this year, whether that's Isaiah West, Jacoby Jackson, the guy they brought in from Florida, who's old and you know, has played some and doesn't have a ton of production to, to show for it, but you know, maybe he can be a 80 carry a year guy for you or something like that or, or one of these freshmen coming in. Legend Bay favor A like I, I, I, I don't know. That's the, it's a weird room. It's a difficult running back room I think to kind of wrap your mind around exactly what, what these guys are going to be. But was there not a time last season kind of like in the middle of the year where it felt like, I don't know, Isaiah west maybe like that Wisconsin game, it was like Isaiah west, maybe he's figuring it out. I don't know that there's that much separation between Bo Jackson and Isaiah West. And then from that point on like never. It didn't really play out that way and Bo got the bulk of the carries. But I don't even now after the season when Bo rushed for a thousand yards and Isaiah west was like kind of sparingly used. I don't know that there's a tremendous gap between those two guys. So, so I, yeah, I think, I think if it were to be anybody to emerge as number two guy, it would be west and their classmates. And that's another interesting wrinkle to it. But I think Ohio State would prefer it. I don't, I don't know if it's definitely going to materialize. I guess that's how I feel about it right now.

[A]

Okay, but you do think they would prefer it like that's, you think that's officially where we are?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ohio State doesn't really want to give 300 carries to one running back.

[B]

No. I think they'd very much like every season to play out the way that it played out with, with Travion Henderson and Quinn shaw Judkins in 2024, if they could, that they could make it be so, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I mean, like, the one thing about that is like Travon was the guy and then you brought in Quinchon for that. But Trayon really was kind of always more of that home run speed stir. Are you really wanting to put 24 carries per game on him? Then he did have the injury issue. I think Trayvon probably realized that's not best for him. That he was sort of, I think, very maybe open to his credit. Open to a compliment. Right. Because of his history and the type of back he was like, bo's a little sturdier. Right. Like I, I, I think Bo and like J.K. was a bowling ball. J.K. by his junior year was like, yeah, give me the ball 300 times. Give me the ball 70 times against Clemson in the playoff. Right. Like I'll, I'll run with a. My half my body torn off. Right. That he went out. And then you saw that, right. In 2019, as much as Master Teague was like a third team all Big Ten guy as the real backup to JK and he was the backup, right. When JK went out against Clemson and they had to give the ball to Master Teague, it was kind of like, oh, this does not look as good. And then JK hasn't come back in injured, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But like JK went through like, holy moly. And I'll always remember, this is still like just back in the day, cleveland.com right. We were just standing in the parking lot at McDonald's like every third day of August practice being like, I think J.K. dobbins might play. Then like three days later be like, I pretty sure he's gonna play. And then like three days later be like, I think he might be a co starter. And then by the beginning of the year, we' like, is he gonna run for 4,000 yards? Remember like the evolution of JK through that camp.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, that was a fun time. Yeah. And then I remember that first game at Indiana when he ran for like 170 yards and was also like at that time, where he's from, when LaGrange, Texas was like going through some really bad flooding. So it's like he's like, he's got to Worry about his family back home. He's a true freshman starting the season opener for Ohio State against a Big Ten team on the road. And he's like, I'm good. Here's 170 yards. Yeah, this is easy.

[A]

God, that guy's a warrior. I can remember him, like, after that Clemson game, like, limping back. I saw him down in the concourse, like, limping back to the locker room, right? It looked like he had just been in battle. And it's just like, you watch the. Watch the smart little guy. Big dumb guy.

[B]

I haven't watched it yet. No, I don't watch it yet.

[A]

Yeah, but it's like there. There's just like. So there's a battle in that show, right? And then it's like, there's the aftermath of the battle and the one guys just beat all the heck. And it's like I was like, oh, it reminds me of J.K. dobbins. It looks like he got, like a jousting Lance shoved through him against Clemson. And that's what J.K. dobbins is. That's what he became by his junior year. Because, like, I think his sophomore year, he was like, no, no, no, I don't want this. Like, I. I am a physical enough running back. Like, I don't want help, right? And it makes me feel weird to have help. So. Whereas trivia and I think was very open to help. And so I think, like, so the. The part of it is, like, by the end of the career, like, what JK did in his third year is exactly what you want. 2,000 yards, bell cow, unstoppable. And then what Trayvon did in his senior year at Ohio State is exactly what you want. It's a perfect one, two punch with two equal backs who are NFL players and dangerous when they have the ball in their hands and equally talented, but in slightly different ways. And so having gone through a tough year, too, for both, for both JK and Trivion, you came out of it on the other end with perfection. But I wonder, like, what do you think Bo Jackson's ultimate path is? A little more trivia on. Let's have a co guy here. We're going to do it together or a little more JK. Get out of my way. Give me the ball 300 times and shove me through with a jousting Lance.

[B]

I don't. I don't know. It's hard. It's hard for me to get a read on because, like, we. We just got to know JK so well like, early on and and not only was he good, but, like, he wasn't really overshadowed by anything. It was like he was the. He was the part of the offense that sort of, like, was capturing everyone's imagination. And that was not true for Bo. Like, for as good as Bo was as a freshman was like, this is Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate show, buddy. You're. You're just enjoy. Enjoy the ride. Right? So we, like, we didn't talk to him that much. I don't. I wouldn't pretend to have a great feel for, like, what his personality is. And, you know, maybe through that, you can maybe glean a little. Little something about whether or not he'd prefer, you know, kind of how things went for him last year or. Or if you'd be okay working in a tandem. I think the fact that he's like, he's not like a lifelong running back, right? Like, he's. He kind of arrived a position a little late in high school and then got hurt like a senior. Senior year of high school. So it's not like he's been used to. I get the ball 30 times a game in his life. Right. So. So maybe that can. Can guard against some of the stuff that I think can be difficult for guys who are stars early and then their role changes a little bit. The difficulties that come with. With dealing with that. Yeah.

[A]

Last year, the. The stats, as you said, Bo Jackson, 179 for 1,090 yards, 6.1 yards per carry. CJ Donaldson, who, just like this is not reflective of it because, like, two thirds of his carries, two yards in at the goal line. So you can't average 7 yards per carry if every carries at the two. 96 carries, 361 yards, 3.8 yards per carry for C.J. donaldson. And then Isaiah west and James Peoples combined, who really, like, at various times like, that was the number two back, as it turned out, 120 carries, 654 yards, 5.5 yards per carry. That's like a. That's a little bit like, that's kind of where Teague was behind Dobbins. Right. In year three. Like, that's like a true, like, backup running back. Maybe you get the third series. Maybe if it's a. A long drive and Bo Jackson was in for the first seven plays, somebody else comes in. But it's not like alternating series. It's not some kind of like, oh, let's make sure we keep it equal, I do think. And we'll do a show leading into spring football, which starts on March 10 for Ohio State, which is right around the corner. And we certainly would invite you to join us over on the substack. Join us here. Like, Ball's going to be here. Like, exactly how that works out. Like RB2 and like his bows out for the spring, right? Bows out.

[B]

Yeah. Ryan Day said on the radio a couple weeks ago that both Bo Jackson and Isaiah West, I. I think it's probably better to say, like, won't be full participants in the spring because they had some shoulder work done. I. I don't know the extent of that. My guess is like they just had some stuff cleaned up. I saw like, I saw a picture of Bo on Instagram. Like he doesn't have like a sling or anything like that, but I would imagine that like, you know, you're not going to see them get carries in the spring game, but I think they'll probably be able to like, run around and stuff.

[A]

Okay. But like moderately interesting as we draft our most interesting guys to watch in spring football. Some combination of the Turbo Rogers who is in the same class with Isaiah west and Bo Jackson but was hurt last year, plus legend Bay and favor a key as true freshmen. Like, kind of interesting to see if anybody or the old guy. I don't really think. Do you really think the old. But like open a little bit of like, oh, who maybe will take advantage of the opportunity to pop a little bit and be like, yeah, I'm gonna be part of the running back plan in 2026.

[B]

I think it's gonna be really interesting. I. I don't. It's no offense to Jacoby Jackson and like, if he proves me wrong, great. But I, I don't know that I'm holding my breath for something to pop there that hasn't popped in the previous six years he's been playing college football.

[A]

So. Yeah.

[B]

But I think it was important to get a veteran. Like, I think they need an older guy in that room to help, you know, show the guys how to, you know, go about your daily business. But yes. Yeah, I, I think. I think you're gonna see a lot of favor, a key and a lot of legend. Bay. Yes. In the spring and I don't even know. There's probably some walk on are going to be involved there too, but it's. I think it's going to be a situation perhaps where maybe spring is weird for running backs because, like, there's not a lot of full contact. Right. They're doing a lot of base stuff. Obviously they're not playing games. So I think it's very easy to get carried away with whatever running back sparks you might see in. In the spring. And I'm sort of envisioning a scenario where, like. And I don't know how much practice we're gonna get to watch, but, like, we go into a practice and it's like, legend Bay or favorite key looked really good today. And we start writing about, like, here they come. And it's like, well, keep in mind that, you know, Bo Jackson and Isaiah west aren't out there, right? So I do think it's interesting. I. I actually don't know in the end, like, how much ends up getting decided at that position in spring football.

[A]

All right, so if you've created this scenario and listen, there's plenty of other guys, right? That, again, you divided it into yet. A thousand years, a thousand yards in the power conference as a true freshman running back. And then, like, did you go up? Did you go down? Did you kind of stay the same? There were a lot of guys who went on to great success, right? It's not. Not everybody hits a sophomore slump.

[B]

No. And I think even the. There were only five who, like, really kind of took off, and then there were, like, there were six sort of in the middle that dropped off a little bit, but stayed above a thousand yards. But even within that group, it wasn't. There were guys who dropped, like, whatever 100 yards here or there, Right? It's not like there weren't a lot of guys who had, like, I had 1900 rushing yards, and then I had 900 the next year. Right? And then even the guys who really fell off, like, who had a thousand as freshmen, who didn't have a thousand as sophomores. There were 10. That was the largest group, but eight of them were because of injury. Like, eight of them because, like, they just didn't. Didn't play in entire seasons. And if you look at, like, their yards per carry, probably would have gotten back to a thousand yards at least had they played a full season. So there's actually not, like, a lot of. I think even I. I think if you don't hit what you did as a freshman and you're still over a thousand, which is what J.K. dobbins did in 2018. Like, I think you can still call that a slump because even JK would tell you, like, I was not the same player to play as well. He called that season a failure. So it's not like if you hit a thousand yards, you avoid the slump, but I think primarily you want to make sure you don't fall off a cliff entirely. And there actually weren't a ton of examples of that happening in, in the last, So I looked at the last 10 years there. Four of these seasons total true freshman, thousand yard seasons. Three of them happened last year. So there were 21 where you could actually analyze their sophomore seasons. And there weren't a lot of, there weren't a lot of this guy was great and then all of a sudden the next year he was really bad.

[A]

Okay, so do you think, but you're talking about the guys who did drop off were, because of injury, would you draw any conclusion of like, hey, they kind of rode you a little bit as a true freshman, then when you came back as a sophomore you got hurt?

[B]

Yeah, I think I, you know, I didn't, I didn't look into what exactly all of those injuries were. But yeah, I think, I think that's, that's a thing for sure. Like I, I think running back's interesting because I, I do think it's the easiest position to play early, but then you also get beat up a lot. So then it's like, it's maybe the most difficult thing to, to manage in terms of like day to day getting your body right, stuff like that, doing the treatment, you know, understanding like when you're actually hurt and perhaps shouldn't be playing and stuff like that. So I think that that's a difficult balance for any young player. But running backs probably get exposed to that more than anybody as freshmen. So yeah, there's probably a slight cautionary talent there about how you bounce back from, from that pretty big workload as a first year player.

[A]

I do think Ohio State did a good job, like a really good job with Bo Jackson last year. Like given the realities of like, hey, C.J. donaldson. No, it's not really happening. Hey, James Peoples. No, it's not really happening. Hey, what are we going to do? And they figured out it was Bo, but didn't lean on him too hard, did have him ready down the stretch. Like I, I thought it was really like, I think a lot of credit to Carlos Lachlan. I think like that to manage that room when it turned out to be like not ideal. It's, it's, it was below, I think the standard of the room because the standard of the room is like, well, we shouldn't necessarily have to rely on this true freshman who's not a five star who missed his, you know, his senior year a high school. Like that wasn't the plan. But all of a sudden like the other things didn't work. You thought it was C.J. donaldson and James Peoples, and it turns out not to be that adapted. So credit to Carlos Lachlan. Credit, huge credit to Bo Jackson. But I do think that, like, as he. He did enough to reach this threshold to be part of your story, but he wasn't a five star burst on the scene. Holy moly. This guy is a superstar in the making. Not quite the same way as JK and trivia, right? Because those were bigger recruitments. And as much as like, maybe you never exactly expect a true freshman to be the leading rusher at Ohio State. When J.K. and Trayvon did it, it was like, oh, man, this is a story. But it's also not completely unexpected. This is just proof of how talented these guys are. Where Bo was a little bit more of an underdog story. Not that he's not talented, but because of the injury, because he kind of backed into it, right? It was. I think there's some comparisons there where Trivon and JK were more like superstar in the making. Spotlight on them. Holy moly. Get ready for year two. And I think, I don't think that's exactly what Bo is.

[B]

No, I don't think he's in that spot. I think the thing you worry about is like, that, that freshman year was great, but was it also your peak? And I think with Traviana was right with, with jk, as he was going through his sophomore year, you know, with the benefit of hindsight, you probably did worry that perhaps it was. And of course as a junior, he showed us that it wasn't. But even in that, in that sample of the 21 other guys nationally who had gone through their sophomore seasons, there were a couple more, like a handful was like, yeah, this guy was excellent as a freshman, but he just never. He never got any better. Like, yeah, he was so good as a freshman, it was like almost an impossible bar to ever clear again. Like Nick Singleton at Penn State I think is gonna be the best example of the guys that I looked at for. For that story. But like, both season. Both season was good. He had some really fun moments, most specifically, I think in the Michigan game, but it wasn't like he was carrying it 25 times for 130 yards in every single game. And, you know, showed himself to be like one of the great freshman backs we've ever seen. It's like he had a nice freshman season, but. But which, like, for me is like, great. That's something to build off of. And I think he, like, he kind of will build off of it. Like, he didn't, I don't think he did set the bar too high. If you look at, like, some of the underlying numbers, like the ways that guys built upon very good freshman seasons and stuff that I looked at was like, of course you can get more carries. But it was, it was kind of like, did you take the next step in terms of, like, your explosiveness? Were you making guys miss? Were you hitting home, starting to hit more home runs than maybe you hit as a freshman while you were very good. And I think that Bose gotta, like, there's a lot of meat left on that bone for, for. No, like, is his, his explosive numbers, frankly, like, were kind of average for a guy who rushed for a thousand yards. And I don't know that that's necessarily because, like, he's just an average running back. I think he's got a little more to him and, and as he gets more comfortable and like, you know, gets used to the workload and gets used to the speed of college and reading defenses and all that stuff, like, I, I look at his, like, lack of explosiveness, explosiveness as a freshman and think, think that's gonna get better. Not, that's, that's what he is. But I, I guess I could be wrong, but I actually, I, I, I'm inclined to believe he's going to take a step forward there and probably be more productive than he was as a freshman.

[A]

It's almost, this is a ridiculous thing to say. It's, it's not true at all. But he was good. But he wasn't too good.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, AK and Travion

[A]

were almost, like, too good. That's not, there's no such thing. But, like, so good. It's like, you almost, like, how could you, you know, tough act to follow. It's your own act. And, and that's at. Bose was just a little bit different. I still think, though, having lived through the JK thing and the traybillon thing, and even though traybillons had a physical component, there was still enough mental stuff there that then they would talk about it. To think JK and Travion both kind of wore it on their sleeves, right? Like, JK and Travion would come into an interview session in the middle of their sophomore years and be like, I'm not, I'm not getting it done. I'm trying to hit home runs. And it's like, man, you are being very honest with us right here. Bo, so far is a little bit more of, like, A man of few words. When I did a story last year about Bo Jackson and Isaiah west and like the future of them maybe being like the one and two in the backfield. And they were, they're like, we're brothers and they're roommates and stuff and that kind of thing. And Isaiah west would be like, this is why Bo Jackson and I are so close and we feel, we think like this and this is why we compliment each other. And then Bo Jackson would be like, yeah, that's my guy. And then like, Isaiah west would be like, have like another like nine paragraph answer. So I think like, Isaiah west is a little bit more like JK and Treveon where it's like, he'll pour it out, but like he's trying to come up. And Bo, I think, just maybe takes it as it comes because he wasn't a five star, because he wasn't a running back his whole life, because no one, you know, he didn't play against Texas in the opener. And all of this was kind of like a, A bonus. So I don't know. Now the only thing is if he really thought about leaving and if there was sort of a, like, okay, no, we don't want you to go. And this is just, it's free agency. But if it's like, okay, well, now, like, you know, live up to the dough, man.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, like that, that would be the one thing that might be a little different of like, what the act you're trying to follow is, maybe not just what you did on the field, but that, like, now you gotta raise.

[B]

There will be a component of that, I think, this year. And I don't think it's unfair. Right. Like, you know, for whatever reason that some of the details of that got out into public. So everyone, I think, is sort of aware of what was going on there. Like, you know, exactly what happened. No, but like, at least aware that there was a thing. Right. So, yeah, and Ohio State had to do something to keep Bo Jackson in the folds. And I was like, okay, it's. It's no different than whatever. Well, I guess it's slightly different, but it's in the same vein of like a guy in the NFL, like, holding out in training camp. It's like, all right, you held out in training camp, you got your, you got what you wanted, now go put it on the field. And, and I'm not saying you should hold Bo Jackson to that kind of standard, but I, I think some people will because it's sort of unavoidable now in a world where guys are getting

[A]

paid to play and will he do it to himself? Will that be it?

[B]

I think, yeah.

[A]

Like, that is just a very human reaction to, you know, to any kind of thing. Like, just think about when you and I got the big bucks and like, the pressure that it put on us. Oh, man, what are we gonna do now? Percent a percent not worried, but the, the step short of worried, but like percent aware that you are for some sort of year two, not even downturn, but like everything that we're just, we're discussing for the last 35 minutes, it's on your radar for Bo Jackson going into year two. Like, to what? Percent and I'll start, I would say, like, I'm 55 on this, just having lived through it and like, I can see it. Like, I can just. Like, you can just hear it in your head because, like, whatever, some. He was out for spring and then other guys flashed and like, other guys got some things and then like, oh, well, you know, it's hard when you renegotiate in the off season. And, you know, that wasn't really a running back and he's still learning and as good as he was last year, he's not a finished product. And it's like, oh, that's why Bow had 11 carries for 26 yards, you know, against Indian. Like, I, I just can see it because it feels so human to me and it's not a guarantee and it's not a pre criticism. I am just saying that if there are Ohio State fans out there who are like, Bo Jackson, 1800 yards, all American, watch out, baby. Like, I think there's a very real opposite side to this. Just because we've seen it and even in your research, like, it's enough not just at Ohio State, but I just think it's a, it can be a real thing. So I would say my awareness that it could be a thing in this situation, I would say like 55% prepared for it.

[B]

I'm not quite that high. I'm maybe more like 30%. Okay. Because I do, I think like, the, the good but not too good factor influences me there. The fact that, like, I, I did look at. I didn't look in this for everybody, but I looked into it for like, the guys who, who took the biggest steps forward and the guys who fell off the most and like, what their offensive line situations were. And unsurprisingly, the guys who took the biggest step forward had a higher average number of offensive line returners than the guys who fell off. And Bo's got four offensive line starters back this year, which, which I think factors into this. We're talking about running backs, but you know, your, your environment matters and, and I think, I think he'll be in a pretty good one with that much offensive line experience returning and also a more kind of run oriented offensive coordinator coming into play. Like the, the, I think the, the thing that would be like sort of like most likely to take away from Bo's production and have him like drop off slightly from last year is just if there actually is somebody else in the room who's ready to be in more of a tandem with him. And that's a little, like I said earlier, it's a little hard for me to kind of to wrap my mind around at the moment, but it's not impossible. But I, you know that that's the thing that's driving most of my 30%. The one thing I will say, like, I didn't, I didn't include this in the article because I actually, I actually don't know that it's a thing. It's just like sort of an observation. I don't know if it's like a trend or whatever. So Beau was on the lower end of the like rushing yards for the 24 guys who have done it in the last 10 years with. He had 1090, which was 17th out of the 24. Everyone else below him dropped off after their freshman year. All but one. The only one who didn't was Devin Singletary. But everyone, the other guys behind him, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, seven guys did drop off. Some of them were hurt. But the, like, the four, the four guys who I wrote about who dropped off and weren't injured were all like in raw guys who had like a thousand yards but fewer rushing yards than Bo Jackson. So I don't know if that's like, if you're, if you're like you're just creeping over a thousand, maybe there's something to like, you know, you did peak early or like that that's about as good as you're going to be as a player. It's not like there weren't a lot of, as I said before, like guys who rush for 1200 yards or more as true freshmen who then came back the next year. Actually there weren't any. Everyone who had more than 1200 yards as a freshman, if they were below a thousand yards of sophomores, it's because they were hurt.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. Just something to think about. There's a lot of things to think about with college football and we'd like to talk about, especially in the off season. We'll see you from the combine. You can join us over on the substack, Bill and Doug osu.substack.com but we certainly will also talk, at least on one show from the combine here on this channel about what we're seeing nine, excuse me, 11 Ohio State players at the combine. We will be there for two days on Wednesday and Thursday. And we will be there for nine of the 11 guys. So that's Arvel Reese and Sonny Styles and Caleb downs and Kaden McDonald and Kaden Curry and Lorenzo Stiles Jr. And David Sigmasten. Like those are the defensive line and linebackers will be talking to the media on Wednesday and then tight ends and the secondary will talk on Thursday. So also Max Claire and will cast America will be over there. So we'll we'll do everything we can to bring you everything interesting going on with Ohio State football in both podcast, YouTube and written form. Again, Bill and Doug osu.substack.com thanks for the research, Landis.

[B]

Yeah, I love doing this stuff. I like to make a spreadsheet, you

[A]

know, nothing like a good spreadsheet and then just like talk through a spreadsheet. It's, we might, it's like we made a business presentation. We just made a Bo Jackson business presentation to the good people out here for 40 minutes. So thanks for doing that. Thanks to you guys, as always, for being here. For now, he's Bill Landis on Doug Lay Maurice, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.