A (2:40)

Okay.

B (2:40)

No idea which two.

A (2:42)

But part of that point is, well, as long as two of the three are available, they can put out a starting offensive line that they would feel pretty good about. Because I would imagine even if for some reason it's Luke Montgomery starting left guard who would be out, do you think Josh Padilla sliding from right guard to left guard would be the answer there, or do you think it'd be somebody else at left guard? And we're not saying it's Montgomery, but it's like that would be the most complicated. If Shabola or Padilla are out, then it's like, well, they just play the other one. The most complicated would be Luke Montgomery.

B (3:16)

It's a really good question. I will say. I don't. Again, we're left to sort of do guesswork here with the way that Ohio State handles injuries. Luke Montgomery was like on the field after the game and I saw that he took a, or somebody took a picture of Luke Montgomery memory with Drew Aller on the field after the game. So it wasn't like Luke was like off of the trainers somewhere as a team was. Was walking off the field after the game. So. But hypothetically, if it were him who had to miss some time. Yeah, I would assume they would just put the guy that Ryan Day sort of crowned their sixth offensive lineman and Josh on the left side and keep Tiger Shabola on the right. At the time that Luke's injury happened, Josh was already hurt. So Gabe Van Sickle came in to play left guard, second year offensive lineman for the play for the quarterback sneak that Julian saying converted on, on 4th and 1. They basically ice the game. Gabe Van Sickle was in the game at right or at left guard.

A (4:11)

Okay, I want to get into something. Did you say this or. And, or write this on substack before the season that this is the deepest Ohio State offensive line that you've covered?

B (4:26)

Yes, I did. I, I thought, I thought that. I observed that at practice and then Ryan Day kind of said as much early in camp and then I also wrote it. Yeah, okay.

A (4:36)

Okay. So I want to get to that in a second. But can I do something else first? Real quick?

B (4:42)

Please do.

A (4:44)

Like subscribe. Tell a friend. Our audience here on the Bill and Doug show continues to grow our number of subscribers continue to grow. Our number of views continue to go up and we just want to say thank you. Whether you're watching a video here for the hundredth time or the first time, thank you for being here. If you like it, like subscribe, tell a friend. If you don't like it, keep your mouth shut.

B (5:06)

Okay.

A (5:08)

No, we want honest feedback too. So if you want to drop something in the comments, if you think this stinks, feel free, please say it stinks. If you'd like to join us on substack, billanddugosu.substack.com we do two other shows there a week on a Wednesday, a big theme show Sunday, comments and questions off the game. Those are for subscribers only. So if you like sort of like the bigger, longer Bill and Doug that we've done over time at various stops, we usually here on YouTube on the podcast feeds, keep it to more like an hour 45 minutes, 35 minutes. That's where the two hour shows are, right? Landis? That's kind of by design. That's like we went two hours on Sunday sound off 20 minutes was talking about offensive line non injuries that we didn't know happened. But anyway, the other minute, hour 40 were pretty good. That's where we go really deep.

B (5:56)

Yes, yes. In this case, the two of us talking for two hours is meant to be portrayed as a good thing that we would hope you guys went up for. Yeah.

A (6:05)

Yeah. So like if you like that and you're thinking like, man, remember these guys used to go like do super long shows. We still do, but it's on substack. And then the Last thing is roback.com r h O-B-A-K.com I was wearing the quarter zip on our Monday around the shoe show. We got our two great guests, Jared Smalley and Joe Nugent. Comfortable, stylish, I've been told it works for the huskier folks among us, right? Like it just like it hangs well, it fits well. It's not too heavy. I keep saying it can become the coolest, nicest piece of team merch that you might own because they have this game day collection at Roeback and we'll get you 20 off your first order. Bad 20 is the code roback.com put in bad 20 to get 20 off your first order. Bill Landis I think offensive line health at times can be as important to a team trying to have a great season as almost anything that can happen.

B (7:07)

I agree. Although last year makes me second guess that theory a little bit because the.

A (7:19)

Two teams in the national title games, both suffered multiple injuries to starting offensive linemen, and Ohio State and Notre Dame got there anyway. And so. So it also could you also agree with the statement that perhaps as we flattened out the sport, the area where you still might find the teams at the very top separate themselves, could be in something like offensive line depth?

B (7:47)

Yeah, I would. I would probably do both sides of the ball line depth, but I would probably offensive line more than defensive line specifically.

A (7:57)

Okay, but this is the thing that happens. And so a year ago, Ohio State lost its left tackle, Josh Simmons, in the Oregon game. That was in the sixth game of the year. Right. When they. That now they started trying to figure that out, and then they lost their starting center, Seth McLaughlin, in practice between Games 10 and 11. So Ohio State is now heading into Game 9 of the season against Purdue on Saturday. Like, we're right in this range where it can happen. Now to Notre Dame. Last year they lost Charles Jag. You saw who they thought was going to be their left tackle in the preseason, right? They lost. Was it Ashton Craig, who was their center? They lost him early. You could. You can lose. They lost somebody. You could lose guys early. They wound up starting a true freshman at left tackle for much of the year. They wound up, I think, with three different guys than they planned starting on the offensive line for them. Ohio State wound up with two. It was a little bit of a bumpy road to get there. They wound up kicking Donovan Jackson, the left guard, out the left tackle. That wasn't the first plan they wound up. They had their previous year, starting center Carson Hinsman, kind of sitting around after losing the job to Seth McLaughlin when he transferred from Alabama. It's like, oh, who's our new center going to be, A spike? I don't know. How about the guy who was the center last year, but who wasn't very good? It's like, well, how about we try him? And how about he's much better? It's like, wow, that worked out great. They wound up then putting in Luke Montgomery as a. A young, highly recruited player who had not started yet at left guard when Donovan Jackson moved over. So just to revisit, can we just pound the table one more time for the awesome jobs that Ohio State and Notre Dame did last year? Credit to all the players. Credit to Justin Fry, Ohio State's offensive line coach last year. Credit to Joe Rudolph, Notre Dame's offensive line coach. It's kind of a stinking miracle both teams made it with all that could have gone wrong because it can absolutely torpedo your season.

B (9:46)

No, it definitely can. I. I was at the time of the Josh Simmons injury pretty certain that was going to happen for Ohio State and then, and then definitely just felt like there wasn't a viable path forward after Seth McLaughlin was injured. So, yeah, like, of all the things that will be remembered and talked about from the, from the 2024 season of the national championship at Ohio State, one, like, I'm not sure that we've talked about that enough. Like, I don't even know that you can talk about, talk about it enough how remarkable it was for them to do that. I didn't go and look actually at what, at what Notre Dame did. But if memory serves, they didn't incur a bunch of injuries. But I think they all sort of happened early and then I think they were fairly stable the rest of the year. Beyond that, Ohio State was a little more up and down because if you remember last year too, like Donovan Jackson didn't start at left guard the first two games because he was hurt to open the season. Yes. So Ohio State last year had three different starters at left tackle, four different starters at left guard, and two different starters at center and then right guard and right tackle. All the Tegra Shabol and Josh fryer started all 16 games. But like, that is a lot of movement on the left side of your line and at the center position that Ohio State navigated and remarkably won a national championship.

A (10:57)

One thing that sticks in my mind is what I always, when I say this about offensive line injuries, it's the thing that always sticks in my head is Michigan State between 2010 and 2015 won at least 11 games in five of those six years. The year they didn't, in 2012, they went 7 and 6 and they had three starting offensive linemen who were injured and out during that season. And it's like, oh, what happened that year? It's like offensive line injuries. Like it's, it really was nothing else. So the other side of this is. And I asked if you would mind. I was right now I wrote like probably 1400 words about Ohio State moving band practice with the football team from Michigan week to the bye week two weeks ago. I kind of wanted to write like a mini like self published book about it, but I limited myself to 1400 words and that's up on substack right now. A lot of theories. So I asked, I do love theories. I asked if you could maybe look up some stuff about offensive line. The, the flip side of this is sometimes when you see a great Team have a great run. You can look and say, man, they were super healthy on the offensive line. And has that not been the case for Ohio State at times?

B (12:12)

It has. Maybe not. Not as healthy lately as I remembered, but I think the thing that stick, that sticks in your mind and this, this predates me covering the team a little bit because I didn't start covering Ohio State until 2014, but from 2012 to 2016. So that's five seasons they, they're. They were healthy on the O line the whole time. The only change they had during that span was in 2014, where a couple games into the season, they flipped their guards, move Pat Elf line from left guard to right guard, and Billy Price from right guard to left guard. But the same. The starters were the same every game that year. The same every year. Every game in 2012-2013-2014-2015 and 2016, which is crazy. Like, I don't know. I don't know how often that happened. It'd be impossible to track. But like five straight years of nothing but offensive line health is, Is pretty insane. And then from there it got a little wonky. 2017 is maybe the most notable. Brandon Bowen won the starting right guard job and broke his leg in the sixth game of the season against Maryland. So Demetrius Knox played there the rest of the year, but the other four starters started every game at their position that season. And then there were just like minor things, like even things I forgot, like 2018, like Thayer Munford didn't play in the Rose Bowl. So like Josh Alleby started the Rose Bowl. Yep.

A (13:32)

That was a bit of a surprise. I think we were like Josh Alby was. We were like, what?

B (13:35)

Yeah, he was like a defensive lineman like the week before. And then he started the left tackle in the Rose Bowl. Demetrius not got hurt at the end of that year, which was the beginning of. Of Wyatt Davis. He started against. Was it Northwestern in the Big Ten championship and then. And then started in the Rose bowl.

A (13:50)

And that was quite a thing. And that was like, okay, that's like the beginning of the rise of Wyatt Davis. Yes.

B (13:55)

Yeah. 19. There was like Thayer missed one game, Bowen missed two games. So guys had to step up. But nothing like super long term. 2020 was the COVID year. That was like they had the game against Michigan State where like all their offensive line got contact traced out of the game. So that's like a. Whatever. It doesn't really count. 2021. There was a little bit of shuffling, like Matt Jones is a backup when I think ended up starting three games that year at a couple different positions. 2022, there was, that was the year the Michigan game where like Enoch Vama, he had to start at left guard.

A (14:31)

Oh.

B (14:32)

And did not go well. Josh Fryer that year started at right tackle against Indiana. He actually played pretty well in that game.

A (14:37)

But yeah, they put Friar in for Vamahi against Michigan because it was not going well.

B (14:44)

Yeah. 2023, healthy at every position all year until they decided to bench Carson Hinsman for the Cotton Bowl. So they moved Matt Jones from right guard to center and move Enoch Lamahi to right guard. But that was like an injury thing. And then last year, which was insane. So like minor stuff. Nothing. Nothing close to last year, obviously. And in terms of like long term injuries that impacted the trajectory of Ohio State's offensive line, the only real examples are last year in 2017 when Brandon Bowen broke his leg.

A (15:15)

Okay. And the other thing I would throw in there as an example is 2013, Marcus hall gets ejected for flipping the bird to Michigan fans in the Michigan game. And they put in Pat Elflein and Pat Alfine replaces Marcus hall. And then they started Pat Elf line again in the Big Ten championship game. And like that was the rise of Pat Alfine. And these were, these were things that I referenced. When they were relying on Luke Montgomery last year, it was like, go to Pat Alfine. He's never started before, but you think he's a good young player. Is he ready? He was ready. Go to Wyatt Davis. He's never started before. You think he's a good young player. Is he ready? He's ready. And why I was not that worried about Luke Montgomery last year because the idea of if you're a second year player and maybe you weren't ready in August, but you're. You very well might be ready by November. And so that when they went to Luke Montgomery last year when Donovan Jackson had to slide over to left tackle, I thought Luke Montgomery was ready. Right? Yeah.

B (16:11)

Yeah. That was like an ongoing conversation throughout the season. I think it was evident that it was sort of coming before it happened and then when it happened. I don't think anybody who was sort of paying attention and listening was surprised by that development.

A (16:23)

So we're talking about offensive line injuries. But. But like the primary point of this is literally Seth McLaughlin won the Remington last year. Right. As the best center in the country. He did. And. And Josh Simmons was a first round draft pick as a left tackle by the Kansas City Chiefs.

B (16:38)

Yes, he was indeed. Yep.

A (16:40)

And they went through the playoff Run without them. And I think if we had done a draft before the season of the 10, this is the kind of thing that, like, podcasters like to do. We probably should do this in the sub stack, right. The 10 most indispensable Ohio State players. I. I think we would have drafted both those guys.

B (17:05)

Yes. Yeah, I'm looking through to see because not only did they do that, but they went. They did that, like playing against teams that had like a combined, I think like four or five first round defensive linemen. Yeah, they're playing some good players.

A (17:22)

So it. It is a. So then what is that the fact that they handled it last year? Is it like, no. Like, no big deal. All this offensive line mumbo jumbo that we're trying to talk about on this show is made up malarkey? Or is it like, holy moly, it's one of the great accomplished accomplishments in modern college football history. That Ohio State lost Josh Simmons and Seth McLaughlin and figured it out.

B (17:44)

No, I think it's that I did. Like, that is not a. Were it to happen again to anybody, I would not assume that. Oh, they're fine. It does feel like. Yeah. Some kind of. Of minor football miracle that Ohio State was able to do that, given it. Given the situation.

A (18:00)

Yeah. So when you said. When you wrote. When Ryan Day said it, you agreed with it and you wrote it that you thought this was the deepest Ohio State offensive line you had seen, and you've been covering the team since 2014. Why? Who. What were the pieces, the players that made you believe that?

B (18:15)

Well, part of it's just sort of like the. And this will maybe sound silly, but like sort of the. Just the look of the group. There have been plenty of years in the past where you'll watch a practice, the starting offensive line will go through a drill, and then here come the twos, and you think to yourself, like, can any of these guys really play here? Just sort of from like a physical standpoint? There have been years where it looked. It just got real thin real fast. And, you know, I guess I just didn't feel that as much watching the group in this off season. Tackle specifically. Right. There just been times where you look at the tackle group and think to yourself, there's not a lot of guys out there who actually look like tackles. And I thought that there were probably, I don't know, five or six in this group, some of them young, but. But they're still there who looked like they had tackle bodies, which I thought was a nice development for Ohio State. Part of it is. Is. Is buying the discussion from the coaches. Right. About a guy like Gabe Van Sickle playing. Playing well. Josh Padilla, like, kind of being ready. Just. Just a guy who's, like, sort of blocked but ready to play, hanging out there. Right. Also, at that time, too, you know, the anticipation was that Ethan Oniano was going to be more of a contributor than he has been. So that. That obviously hasn't happened. So. So maybe the dynamic has changed a little bit. But I. There have been years where I've wondered, like, they have five guys who can start or they believe in who can actually play. And I think, like, in this off season, you could tell they had like six or seven with maybe another one or two who were kind of. Kind of knocking on the door to get there. And that's just a. That's a pretty nice spot for any offensive lineman to be in.

A (19:54)

So do you want to throw. You're the moniker offensive line guru. Would you push back against that or would you. Would you take that upon yourself and agree?

B (20:03)

Yeah, I don't. I don't want to overstate it. I think I'm just someone who likes to remind people of the importance of offensive line play, but I would not consider myself a guru.

A (20:10)

Okay. Philly Billy, who likes Takano Line.

B (20:14)

There you go.

A (20:15)

To get. Get people ahead, like, just ahead on this. Right. So can you list. So we know the five starters, right? Austin, Sarah. About a left tackle, Luke Montgomery at left guard, Carson Hinsman at center, Tega Shibola at right guard, Philip Daniels at right tackle. And we certainly have spent time talking and writing about the right side of the offensive line lately. It has not been great. And this is not to pretend that Ohio State's offensive line is perfect or the greatest in the world, but how many other offensive linemen. If, if, if. And we're having just the first little taste of, like, okay, what's going on? If they were called upon, the way Luke Montgomery and Carson Hinsman were called upon last year, the one. The way they tried to call upon Zen Mahalski and then it didn't go great and he got hurt. Anyway, how many do you think, if Ohio State fans hear their name this season is like, hey, they got to play this guy. They should feel okay about it.

B (21:11)

Prob. I would say two. Two, like two. In addition to the. The six we've been talking about.

A (21:18)

Okay.

B (21:18)

And they would be. They would be Ian Moore and Gay Vents, Gabe Van Sickle. Van Sickle. Maybe more than more. A little bit. But I think. I think the Staff likes both of them. You just kind of hear their name a lot. Ryan Day has mentioned both specifically as players who have made some nice progress. And they're only in their second year, they're still very young in like PFF grades or whatever. Like they grade out fine. And the snaps that they've played, if you, if you care about that, they've actually graded that really well in the snaps they play. But I don't want to make too much of that because it's like 35 snaps or something like that. Yeah, but those would be the two. And then like, and then Onion was the wild card. Like, is that, I don't know, is that a total lost cause or is there an opportunity that if they really needed him to go out there and play something would snap in the place and he could do it. So it's like two with that asterisk of Oniablo.

A (22:06)

Do you have any vibe on that or is there just like no way to know about Ethan Oniano?

B (22:13)

Yeah, I mean, I don't love what I've seen of him. The little bit that he's played and he's not really done anything other than special teams since the first like three games of the season. But like even when he got in against Texas kind of got manhandled a little bit. So I, I'm not like optimistic that suddenly it's going to click, click into place. But then again, I would like, you know, I, I, part of me wants to keep an open mind about it just because of what happened last year. Like, I didn't think Ohio State had any chance of figuring it out on the fly last year and they did. So that they were able to do that should inspire some confidence, a new offensive line coach. Maybe that, that's enough of a difference.

A (22:50)

But.

B (22:51)

And Chip Kelly's on around too. So maybe those are two, two major differences that we should consider more when wondering if they could do it again. So I don't, I don't think I'd be holding my breath waiting for it, I guess is the way that I would answer it.

A (23:08)

And just to reinforce what you said about Ian Moore and Gabe Van Sickle, Ian Moore from Indiana was the number168 overall recruit in the 24. 7 composite rankings. In the class of 2024, Gabe Van Sickle from Michigan was the number 203 player. And I think again, just like normalize believing in second year offensive linemen in November, maybe not in August, but by November it would make like, I, I think that would, I mean do you, like, do you think Ian Moore and Gabe Van Sickle could start for Ohio State next year on the offensive line?

B (23:51)

I think they'll be ready to. There's, there's just a chance that all five starters come back next year. Like all five current starters could come back next year. So I don't, I don't know. But yes, like, it's part of the reason. Like, I wrote a thing about the transfer portal last week or the week before and I talked a little bit about offensive line, but I was not super convinced that offensive line is a place they're going to look. Because all five starters have the chance to come back and because there's a couple of young guys and I think, I think you're going to be ready to start by, by August of next year.

A (24:22)

Okay.

B (24:23)

Including Carter Lowe, who we're not mentioned, who's like a five star freshman who's just kind of like waiting in the wings. Right.

A (24:29)

So that's. You want to play an offensive line game real quick. It's not the focus of what we're doing here, but playing offensive line game real quick. All right. Left tackle Austin Saraveld. What state is he from Ohio. Luke Montgomery, left guard from Ohio. Carson Hinsman, center from Wisconsin. Right guard Tegra Shabola from Ohio. Right tackle Philip Daniels from Ohio. Josh Padilla, sixth offensive lineman from Ohio. And Ian Morris from Indiana. And Gabe and Sickles from Michigan. Does it warm the cockles of your heart to just list off eight offensive linemen from the Midwest playing for the Ohio State Buckeyes?

B (25:10)

Yeah, because I think if you want, if you kept going down the list, right, like, and these guys are young, like Jake Cook, who came into the game for the kneel down after Tiger Chabola got hurt at the end of the Penn State game. He's from Ohio. Carter Low, who I mentioned is from Ohio, might be it. Or the Armstrong twins are from Ohio, but I think they're, they're, they're probably behind the depth chart, behind the guys we mentioned already. But yes, I love how Midwest centric Ohio State's offensive line is.

A (25:39)

And then Ohio State did just. This is not typically a recruiting show. We're probably gonna do some recruiting episodes, though. We're not like, we're not afraid to talk about recruiting. We've been talking about rec strategy for a decade. But they just got two offensive line commits in the class of 2027. Right. From Ohio.

B (25:57)

Yes.

A (25:58)

And this in, this goes back to some of the roster building content. We did. We wrote it on substack we did a podcast about it on Substack several weeks ago. If you join Substack now, it'd be a great thing to go catch up on because we talked about not just recruiting but the transfer portal, retention and recruiting the three prongs of modern day roster. But in people that we talk to, they sort of espouse this idea and I don't think as it was spelled out to us, it's like, listen, we're not here to parrot everything Ohio State says, but it makes sense. And the idea of building up offensive line depth through Midwestern recruiting and maybe not only focusing on five star guys, like just get some good football players and roll the dice. And if you keep getting four or five every year and two, you're in pretty good shape, right? Like, how many, how many Midwestern offensive linemen would Bill Landis like to see Ohio State recruit every year and land five? Okay.

B (27:01)

Yeah.

A (27:03)

So like we're seeing and, and listen, we've talked about it a bunch of times. Like it is what it is. They thought Ethan Onyama was going to be something that he has turned out not to be. But like it's like, hey, let's go solve our problem in the portal. And I don't know, do you think it'll change their view on offensive lineman in the portal at all? Because Philip Daniels is a little bit different. He, he was at Minnesota, but he's an Ohio kid who went to another Big Ten school. They probably maybe missed on that recruitment. And now as we talk about now, the way they're gathering Midwestern guys, maybe they would just would get Philip Daniels to begin with. But when you go get a guy from Rice, you're going outside the comfort zone, you're going somewhere different to plug a hole. Do you think the way that has unfolded and it just hasn't worked or should have any effect on how they view offensive line roster building in the future?

B (27:52)

I think it will. Yeah. I don't, I don't think they want to be living in that world. And frankly, I don't know that most teams want to. It's the hardest place, it's the hardest position to evaluate. Whether you're evaluating them out of high school or, you know, up transfers from the group of five or FCs, that kind of stuff. It's not saying that you can't hit on it there if there have been plenty of hits, but I also wonder if moving forward because there's been, there's been some chatter right, about just kind of looking back and re Litigating this portal clash generally not for Ohio State. I'm talking about across college football as a whole. And like it, it wasn't very good. And I think that is at least partly a byproduct of teams realizing the thing they should probably spend their money on first is retention. And Ohio State was ahead of that curve. But I think other teams are catching up and as that continues to happen more and more there's going to be fewer and fewer quality off of lineman in the transfer portal. So if you're a place like Ohio State, you don't want to be banking on that. You want to recruit guys out of high school and develop them the way they largely have and you touched on it. I think if there's any, if there's any pivot here that happens in this new era, it'll be taking guys like Philip Daniels out of high school and not, not okay, not waiting to see if he goes somewhere else and like blossoms into something. They did that with Philip Daniels this year. They also did with Justin Terry from West Virginia who was a West Virginia for one year and then, and then came to Ohio State. It was coaching staff change but, but Ohio State is still recruited him like I don't know, maybe he can be a guy who's going to be a starting guard or tackle here someday. I, I think especially now that we're no longer sort of like counting scholarships the way that we used to, the door is just open to take those kinds of swings and, and as you mentioned, you're not going to hit 100. Probably happy if you hit 50, if I'm being honest. But you can take more of them. So I don't think Ohio State's going to stop swinging and pursuing on like the David Sanders of the world and, and maybe one day we'll see Ohio State Land 1. But what I think you will see them do is bring in more guys like Phil Daniels, like Justin Terry, like Landry Breed, the guy they just got in a 2026 class from Menorah Ohio who's more of like a three star lineman but they think has a lot of upside. Like there's, I think there needs to be more room for guys like that in Ohio State's roster building plan. And I think there will be.

A (30:12)

They're 2026 offensive line recruits. They have three kids from Ohio, they have a kid from Arizona and another kid from Arizona just decommitted. Right. So I guess my question would be are we sure they won't give up on trying to get the Next, David Sanders. All right, North Carolina kid, five star that. It's like, are you really going to win that? Is that where you want to put your rev share in nil money? Would you rather put that in quarterbacks and receivers and then just be like, the way we're gonna win that commitment now is monetarily, and that's not where we want to prioritize our money. So, like, we're not even gonna try.

B (30:49)

Yeah, I think. I think maybe I'm just looking to see what Sanders has done. So Sanders has made a couple of starts. He's played okay for a true freshman in Tennessee. I don't think they're not going to, like, walk away from initial conversations with those guys because you have to see kind of where it leads. But I don't. Maybe they don't go as far down the road with Sanders as they did. And from what, like, you know, and this is mostly like, from reporting from people like Jeremy Birmingham. Like, Ohio State was pretty aggressive with. To get David Sanders. They just didn't get them. So. So I don't know. The fact that they were pretty aggressive there leads me to believe that they will continue to be. But. But I think what will definitely change is they will not sort of put all of their eggs in that basket and make sure they have contingency plans and take. And are taking, I think, bigger offensive line classes, so that if the cycle happens where you chase a guy like that and you don't get them, you're not looking at your class thinking, like, we have a massive hole here. So I think that's where the change will come.

A (31:55)

I. I really do think it could affect them that, like, they. They went to. Went to go get a Rice transfer to fill left tackle, and it turned out their left tackle was sitting here all along. Yeah, it was a kid they had recruited from Ohio who was playing guard for them, and it was like, wait, he's the guy? And that maybe just like, I don't know that you. It's probably slightly more nuanced than in three straight recruiting classes. Gather 15 Midwestern offensive linemen and just assume you're going to get five starters out of there. And if you have to move a guy who's probably an NFL guard to tackle to make it happen, fine, but you can live that way. Actually, maybe it's not any more nuanced than that. Maybe as you like. It's just exactly what you said. Get five Midwestern offensive linemen every year, and then you have.

B (32:42)

That's like the baseline and Then if you can add on top of that, great. But like that's the minimum you're doing every year.

A (32:47)

And then. Because every now and then, like there's going to be a Paris Johnson who's in your state, who's sitting around is like, oh my God, like that's an answer, right?

B (32:54)

Every now and then. Sam Greer from Hoban in 2026 is like a borderline five star guy, right? Yeah. Yeah.

A (33:04)

So I mean like maybe, but maybe. And then if you don't. But if there's. Because I mean, I, you know, certainly I for a long time was like, oh, great. Your whole offensive lines, three and a half star guys from Ohio, great job recruiting. You know, like that was like a, like, did you even like, did you.

B (33:23)

But wasn't that the recipe for like Urbans 3 best teams?

A (33:29)

But I mean like by the, like Jim Bowman was doing that at the end of the trestle error and it was like, is his car able to leave the state? Like, what is happening here? Why is this the case? But I don't. And it took a while for that to shake out of me because like, even when Justin Fry, it's like Justin Fry came and got a class, that was Josh Padilla, Luke Montgomery and Austin Sareville. And I was like, great. Could you maybe go win a battle that somebody else wouldn't win? Every Ohio State offensive line coach, coach ever would win that battle. Because guess what Josh Padilla, Austin Saravel and Luke Montgomery want to do play for Ohio State, their Ohio offensive linemen. But I always wanted more, demanded more, thought it was a shortcoming of the coach if he didn't get more. And I thought they had to do more to win. And I don't think, I think that anymore.

B (34:14)

I don't think it's a. Listen, like, I like, like the fans. I'd love to see it like, you know, if there's a Parish Johnson in Texas who wants to come play for Ohio State.

A (34:22)

Great.

B (34:22)

Because I love watching Ohio or watch, watching Paris Johnson play tack Ohio State. But yeah, I don't, I don't think it's the, the wrong plan, I guess to, to kind of fall back on your base a little bit and, and really mind the Midwest. No, it puts a premium on your evaluation. And because we've seen Ohio State take big Midwestern classes, big Ohio classes before and like they took the wrong guys, right? Like 2020. Yes. They took like four or five of the kind of guy we're talking about like three star kind of Midwest Ohio. And the only one of them that really worked out was Josh Fryer and like a couple of guys never played and a couple barely roasted level of backup. Right? Like, you can't, you can't have that happen. So it's not as simple as just saying, like, give me all the three stars in Ohio. You have to make sure you're getting the right ones. But even as that class was like, never materializing, you could look across the sport and see three star guys from Ohio who were kind of blossoming at other places and thinking to yourself, like, why didn't Ohio State get that guy instead of this guy? So, like, that's the, that's the task for Tyler Bowen as he, as he, as he navigates this right now. Like, Padilla and Saravelta Montgomery were Ohio guys who were kind of no brainers. They're not like really the three star guys we're talking about, but they're going to have to take. You're like sort of taking a flyer, but it should be an informed flyer. Right. You shouldn't be landing on a bunch of guys who, who clearly have no future playing at a place like Ohio State. So that's sort of the middle, the middle ground they have to hit is know that you do this.

A (35:51)

Yeah. Okay. We actually might be having more offensive line stuff coming down the line. We got pretty deep there. We couldn't help ourselves. Sorry.

B (35:58)

I love it. That's my favorite, like, strategical thing to talk about in roster building. Like, and it's like, whatever. Brian Hartline's a dog and I love, love watching all his receivers play. It's like strategic offensive line recruiting, I think is sort of the most interesting thing you can do.

A (36:10)

Yeah, yeah, very true. All right, so that's kind of stuff we like to do here on the Bill and Doug Show. We like to write about it on Substack as well. Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com if you made it this far into the show, make sure you're subscribed on YouTube. Make sure you're subscribed on your podcast feed. Tell a friend about the Bill and Doug Show. We continue to grow and we're really appreciative to you guys for making that happen because that's why it is happening, because of you guys. So thanks for letting us hang out with you. Playoff stuff coming. Playoff stuff came on Tuesday night, if you missed it. So, like, the playoff rankings were released by the committee. We reacted to that. You can go find that on our YouTube feed and our podcast feedback. We will have our Ohio State picks on Thursday, our national game picks including Iowa, Oregon on Friday and then back to a post game show on a Saturday. And we did Bill, we did our post game show after Penn State, not at the usual time. It wasn't immediate, it was several hours later, but still really good numbers. So like people hung with us and if they, if you were looking for us right after the game, you found us and we appreciate that.

B (37:13)

We do appreciate that. I don't know. So I'm going to the game on Saturday. Yeah, Purdue. So we have to figure out best practices there for timing of the postgame show. But we will and we'll inform you as soon as we can on what exactly that's going to look like.

A (37:30)

Yep, that's the plan. All right. Thanks to you guys as always for joining us here. For now, he's Bill Landis, I'm Doug Lemurice and that was the Bill and Doug Show.