Sherrone Moore is fired, and in the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry, The Second Ten-Year War ends

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk

Episode: Sherrone Moore Is Fired, and in the Ohio State-Michigan Rivalry, The Second Ten-Year War Ends
Date: December 11, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Doug and Bill dive into Michigan's stunning firing of head football coach Sherrone Moore. Rather than focusing on the specifics of Michigan's internal crisis, they consider what it means for the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry, particularly the close of what they dub "The Second Ten-Year War," a high-stakes, personality-driven decade in college football’s greatest rivalry. The conversation explores the changing nature of the rivalry, the pitfalls of claims to “moral superiority” in programs, the dangers of personalizing sports narratives, and what the end of this era could mean for both schools moving forward. The tone is conversational, irreverent, and deeply knowledgeable, with reflections rooted in decades of covering Ohio State and college football.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Why No Emergency Podcast? (00:06–02:02)

• Doug explains that they waited to discuss Moore’s firing to let more facts emerge and because they’re not deeply embedded Michigan reporters.
• Both hosts reiterate that their analysis is from an Ohio State perspective, with Ohio State fans as their main audience.

2. The Second Ten-Year War: An Era Ends (03:23–16:16)

Defining the "Second Ten-Year War" (03:23–11:29)

• Doug compares the last decade of Ohio State–Michigan to the original Ten-Year War (Woody Hayes vs. Bo Schembechler, 1969–78), claiming this modern era matches it in intensity and stakes.
• Key comparisons:
  • Each war began after an Ohio State national championship and Michigan hiring a new head coach (Harbaugh in 2015, Bo in 1969).
  • Each ends suddenly with the shocking firing or ejection of one coach (Woody’s punch; Moore’s firing).
  • Both periods feature highly-ranked, elite teams and decided Big Ten supremacy annually.
• "We just finished... the Second Ten-Year War. Here are all the comparisons between the last ten games in the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry and that wonderful 10-year period..." — Doug (04:15)
• Both reflect on stakes: while every winner in the original era went to the Rose Bowl, the modern era often sent the OSU-Michigan winner to the College Football Playoff.

Statistical Parallels & Contrasts (07:35–10:07)

• Similar numbers of highly ranked teams, upsets, and competitive balance.
  • Modern era is slightly more offense-heavy.
  • Parallels in how dominance shifted within eras.

Personalities Defined the Rivalry (10:07–11:29)

• Identity transitions from head coach to successor (Meyer → Day, Harbaugh → Moore), but each era is personality-driven.
• Doug asserts: “This is a line in the rivalry... We will look back on this 10 year[stretch] with the same... level of personality, stakes, balance, [and] excellence on both sides.”

The Weight of Shenanigans (10:30, 16:13)

• "Significantly more shenanigans." — Bill (10:30)
• The modern rivalry has featured more controversy and scandal (e.g., NCAA investigations, suspensions).

3. The Curse of Third Base (17:26–24:48)

• Reflects on Harbaugh’s infamous claim that Ryan Day “started on third base.”
• The curse seemed to turn on Moore — he inherited a strong program but ultimately "blew it."
• “If Ryan Day was on third base, maybe Sherrone Moore was like rounding second, heading to third. But whatever it was, he tripped and got tagged out two years later.” — Doug (18:21)
• Discussion of overreaction and hindsight bias among fans when things go wrong.

4. Just Admit You’re Trying to Win (25:07–29:23)

• Doug and Bill critique the pretense that programs like Michigan or Notre Dame operate on a higher moral plane (“the Michigan Man”).
  • "The Michigan Man is dead. And the question is: should he be? And I think the answer maybe is yes." — Doug (25:47)
• Suggest that in this era, claiming to be “above the fray” merely sets a school up for public ridicule or hypocrisy charges.
• "In the modern era, the sign that you should hit when you walk on the field is: we're trying to win a football game. Bang." — Doug (26:45)
• Bill asserts the "Michigan Man" ideal ended when Harbaugh "cheated his butt off to win a national title." (28:12)

A Counterfactual: Was It Worth It? (29:23–34:21)

• Doug poses the ethical trade-off: Would Michigan fans prefer “clean” success with fewer trophies or recent years’ wins tainted by scandal? (They agree most will take the titles, even with the baggage.)

5. The Dangers of Making It Personal (34:21–41:01)

• Both discuss how media and fans try to paint rival coaches as paragons or villains — a dangerous game.
  • “When you start crossing the threshold into, like, our guy's a good guy and your guy isn't — it's dangerous territory.” — Doug (36:17)
• They caution that ascribing virtue to coaches is foolish since most fans or even reporters don’t know them personally.
• “Why do we have to even care? ... coach football. Because you don't. ... We don't really know.” — Doug (38:26)
• Bill: “You have no idea. And then, like, it turns out that ... one out of every thousand [is] truly a bad dude, you just look foolish in the end.” (39:20–40:03)
• The hosts urge media to drop the "good guy/bad guy" narrative and focus on coaching results.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the end of an era:
  • “This is a line in the rivalry... We will look back on this 10 year[stretch] with ... a similar level of personality, ... balance, ... excellence...” — Doug (10:07)
• On the shift from high-mindedness to pure competition:
  • "The Michigan Man is dead. ... The real point ... is I think, in this era, you just have to admit that you're trying to win football games..." — Doug (25:50)
• On the pitfalls of personal narratives:
  • “When you start crossing ... into ‘our guy’s a good guy and your guy isn’t’ ... you are begging for that to come back on you. It almost always ends poorly.” — Doug (36:17 & 36:31)
• On fans and perspective:
  • “There’s a million ... good people. ... We talk about you for the sports stuff. Why do we have to get bogged down in the other stuff?” — Doug (37:35)
• Meta Reflection:
  • "Sometimes it's hard to be the first draft of history. This is the first draft." — Doug (15:07)
  • “You can call it a Ten-Year War and put an asterisk on there.” — Bill (15:24)
• Book concept:
  • Joking about writing a book called “The Second Ten Year War” with a foreword by Connor Stallions (16:00).

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:02] Doug’s Four Points Overview (ten-year war, curse of third base, just admit you’re trying to win, the dangers of making it personal)
• [03:23–11:29] The Second Ten-Year War: What it means, how rivals’ personalities and competitive balance defined an era
• [17:26–24:48] Harbaugh’s “third base” quote, inheriting programs, and what that really means
• [25:07–29:23] The “Michigan Man” myth and why public moral posturing backfires
• [34:21–41:01] The perils of personalizing the rivalry in the media and among fans

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Tone & Additional Highlights

• The hosts maintain a friendly, slightly irreverent, and deeply informed tone, often poking fun at themselves and the broader college football ecosystem.
• There’s much meta-commentary about how history is written, how narratives are shaped in real time, and how the media can distort rivalries by making them about more than just football.
• Joking references to book-writing and media personalities add levity: “The Second Ten Year War*” with an asterisk so big it covers the cover, foreword by Connor Stallions (16:00).
• Hosts reinforce: they’re not Michigan insiders, and their takes are intentionally from the Ohio State side.

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Summary

If you missed this episode, you missed a broad, historical, and philosophical reflection on the end of the latest epic era in Ohio State-Michigan football. Doug and Bill see Sherrone Moore’s firing as the final act in a decade defined by huge stakes, remarkable personalities, scandals, and shifting institutional values. They challenge notions of program morality, caution against deifying (or demonizing) coaches, and ultimately argue that on-field results and the will to win define legacies more than any public-relations-driven code of conduct. Michigan’s next move, they suggest, will set the tone for a new chapter in the rivalry — but the drama of the “Second Ten-Year War” may never be matched.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug show. Yeah, we're talking about it. Douglas and Bill Landis. We didn't jump on and do an emergency show. Bill, on Wednesday night with the news that Sharon Moore had been fired by Michigan. Two reasons. One, I think we just wanted to, like, let the information play out a little bit. And we are not embedded with Michigan. We cannot pretend that we know all the ins and outs. I think we wanted to wait for a little context, gather our thoughts. So here we are on Thursday morning doing this. And then also, I had to go to elf trivia.

[B]

How'd it go?

[A]

I mean, is that what the people want to hear? Do the people want to hear that we got every single question right? That we went 34 for 34 and tied for first place with another team? That also was perfect. And then we won the tiebreaker. We won the tiebreaker.

[B]

Let's go. Let's. Were they. Did you dress like Buddy the elf?

[A]

Did I dress like Buddy the elf? Come on, bro. Of course I did. The. The guy asking the question. The guy asking the questions was dressed like Buddy the elf. And I looked 400 times more like Buddy the elf than he did. So I actually was one of those where I was like, kind of too into it and then you put pressure on yourself. It was maybe the most nervous I'd ever been in my life. So, like, the fires of competition were stoked within my body. But also, as it turned out, we had watched the movie the night before. We had taken vigorous notes. And when you study a 90 minute movie the day before trivia about it, you can kind of get everything right. I don't know. I'm gonna be honest. It felt like a lot of the other 18 teams did not study. And I was like, how did you just show up at Alpha not study? So anyway, 50 bucks, gift card, bang, right in my pocket. Okay.

[B]

You should stop talking about it so much though, because you're going to get banned from trivia for studying.

[A]

I know, I know. My wife and I were sitting there. We're like, are we having fun? I was like, I don't know, but we're winning. So.

I'm a sick person. So congrats to me and my wife. I have four points about really Ohio State, Michigan, not just Sharon Moore, because we're not going to get into the details of what happened, but there is fallout here as it relates to the Ohio State Michigan rivalry. Bill. And that's what this is. Yeah, we do national shows sometimes. We do Ohio State shows sometimes. This is More an Ohio State show for Ohio State fans reacting to the firing of the coach of their rival. And so we're not trying to come at this from a Michigan perspective. We're trying to come at it from an Ohio State perspective. Of course. It really matters.

[B]

Yeah. And there are plenty of fine folks reporting on this thing, like hourly if you want sort of the details of what's going on up in Michigan. Yeah, I think we'll talk about what we know and what we're doing. Experts in.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, here are the four points that I would like us to cover. So I woke up last night in the middle of the night for two reasons. One, because I ate like a lunatic at elf trivia and I had terrible heartburn. And then once I was up with the heartburn, I was like, I am really thinking about what this means for the Ohio State Michigan rivalry. Let's take some notes. I don't only take notes on elf trivia. I was taking notes on actual what this means to Ohio State fans. Four points are this. The second ten year WAR just ended the curse of third base.

Just admit you're trying to win at football and the dangers of making anything personal in a sports rivalry. Let us start with the ten year war. The ten year war, as people know, was Bo Schambeckler and Woody Hayes coaching against each other in the Ohio State Michigan rivalry from 1969 to 1978. They went head to head for 10 years. Bo had a 5, 4, 1 edge. We just finished. We didn't know it at the time, but we just finished the second ten year war. And here are all the comparisons between the last ten games in the Ohio State Michigan rivalry and that wonderful 10 year period from 1969 to 1978. And this, I think is the most important thing because we're at the end of an era.

Both the first ten year WAR and the second ten year war began the year after an Ohio State national championship.

So the first one started in 1969 after the SuperSofts won in 1968. The second one starts in 2015 after Ohio State wins it in 2014. Both of them begin with the hiring of a new Michigan coach. In 1969 it was Bo Schembeckler. And in 2015 it was Jim Harbaugh. And so the Michigan hiring is what is defining that period. Okay.

Both 10 year wars end with the unexpected and shocking firing of one of the coaches involved. For the first tenure war, it was Woody Hayes. After the Clemson punch for this tenure war, it's Sharon Moore. But There is an unexpected and sudden end because it is not just about the programs. It is about the personalities of the head coaches in these matchups. So that's. That I think is where you really get a lot of stuff. Okay.

There was a tie in the first ten year war. We don't have ties anymore. There was an overtime game, double overtime game in 2016. So like that's a little bit of a thing.

[B]

There was also, there was the COVID.

[A]

Year.

The thing that we are noting here. So like there's like some weird stuff. This is an 11 year period, but it's 10 games. So it's the 10, it's actually like the 10 game war. If you don't want the second 10 year war, it's 2015 to 2025, it's 10 games. So like. But there is like some goofy stuff in there, right? There's goofy stuff.

It's pretty close. First 10 year war was 5, 4, 1 Michigan, this one is 6 to 4 Ohio State. So now it's one of those things where like you maybe wouldn't necessarily think it like about it that way because it started off with Urban Meyer dominating Jim Harbaugh and then it flipped all of a sudden and then Michigan's dominating and then Ohio State got one back at the end. So it wasn't back and forth. But also the ten year WAR wasn't really back and forth because Michigan won the last three. Right. With Woody on his way out. Right. It wasn't just wasn't like an Ohio State. I think in that stretch was 3, 0 and 1 in a four year stretch with three wins and a tie. So it wasn't like the 10 year old was back and forth. It was more in retrospect you looked back when it was over and said maybe man, this was a certain period of time and cumulatively it was close. Okay.

The first ten year war, people know this. All ten winners of the ten year WAR went to the Rose Bowl. It determined the Rose bowl representative. Every year stakes, right? This ten year war, the winner went to the playoff seven of ten years and one year the loser also went to the playoff. So the stakes, it's not quite 10 for 10 in the rose bowl, but Bill, it is for supremacy in the Big ten almost all of the time. And even a couple of those two of the years where they didn't make the playoff, Ohio State won the Big Ten 17 and 18. They won the Big Ten, they just didn't make the playoffs. So it's still for supremacy. So it is a 10 straight games where the Ohio State Michigan game is for Big Ten supremacy that has state stakes beyond the Big Ten. Okay, we're good with that comparison. We're all good. Okay. In the first 10 year war.

And so 20 teams, right. There's 20 times they played two teams in each game. 20, 14 of those 20 teams in the first 10 year war were ranked in the top five at the time of the game. You know what I'm saying there? Yeah. Second ten year war.

It is.

Hold on a second. 12. 12 on the top five versus 14 in the top five. First ten year war overall, 17 in the top ten. Okay. Second ten year war, 16 in the top ten. First ten year war was 19 of 20 in the top 25. Second ten year war, 18 of 20 in the top 25. So what we're talking about is excellent teams, the level of excellence of the teams in the second ten year war, the ten game, or whatever you want to call it. Actually we're inventing it. We're. We'll figure out what to call it. Very similar. Do we agree with that?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, really good teams. By ranking the first 10 year war, there were five upsets.

Nope. Let me look at that again. Yes. Five upsets the first time, five upsets the second time. Okay. So like, just because you're higher ranked doesn't mean you're gonna win for sure. And Overall in the first 10 year war, Michigan had a 138 to 105 total points advantage. In the second 10 year war, Ohio State had a 332 to 265 advantage, which is like, so the scoring just tripled in the difference in between. Right. So we just win. There's not a lot of 62 point games or whatever it was from Ohio State in the first version of the ten year war. So the, the second part of this is the first ten year WAR is Woody and Bo the whole time. The second ten year WAR starts with Harbaugh and Meyer and they go head to head four times. Then it's passed off to Urban Myers, Lt. Ryan Day and Harbaugh and Day go four times and then it's passed off to Jim Harbaugh's Lt. Sharon Moore. And then Day and Moore go two times. Now that also counts the year where Harbaugh was suspended and Sharon Moore coached the game. But that officially goes on Jim Harbaugh's record. So just like for, for housekeeping there. So anyway, I think it's the second ten year war. I think it is at that level and I think Maybe we knew it, maybe we didn't. But now that it's over, this is a line in the rivalry. And we will look back on this 10 year, I think with the same, with a how can you ever top Woody and bow? You can. But a similar level of personality, a similar level of stakes, a similar level of balance, a similar level of excellence on both sides of the ball. And then even like some more shenanigans.

[B]

This will be an iconic, significantly more shenanigans.

[A]

Shenanigans. Shenanigan. Heavy. Yeah, this, this will be. And I think this is the end. I think this is the, the final scene in this because whatever is next, it's been these two head coaches and then the assistants who took over for them and in many ways retained a lot of the identity of the program. And then by the way, one thing that didn't happen in 10 year war is Michigan didn't win any national titles and Ohio State only won one. And it was not like, not real, a real national title because they lost the rose bowl in 1970 and still claim a national title. These teams won national titles back to back. So like there's an extra, like, frankly, like so for stakes. So anyway, Bill, I would just like to state for the record, I hope people understand this is what just ended on Wednesday, December 10th. It was the ending of the second ten year war.

[B]

And we think like there's no chance, at least I don't think there's any chance that there's any Harbaughness to what Michigan does from here on out. Right. Like, because I think if there, if there was, maybe this would still be ongoing. Right? If I, I don't even know who would be. But like some other guy who was around for Harbaugh's run, took over the program and carried it forward. Like, I think there would still be an element of this like ongoing chapter, but because I don't expect that to happen, I think you're right. I think there was, there was finality in that. I sort of wondered even if like the, this is the result of the game this year might have been that.

But it's hard to say until you get a couple years down the road. Right? But now I think we, we know it definitively that this, this chapter is over. And boy, was it a weird one.

[A]

And you'll never stop talking about it. Just like you never stop talking about 69 to 78 book.

[B]

There's a book behind me about the last one. I'm sure there'll be one about, about this one.

[A]

I kind of want to do one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's out there because like this and, and it's so, it's so instructive about the state of the sport and this, the, the nationalization of regional rivalries and like, and other things that we're going to get into. But like this was a thing. But I do think it's one of those. I do think we'll realize it and understand it and contextualize it more. Looking back because sort of in it, in it, the beginning of it is like, man, Ohio State's kicking Jim Harbaugh's butt. I wonder if he's gonna get fired. And then it flips and it's like, holy moly, here's Michigan. And then it's shenanigans. And then it's like, oh, I got our heads, we're our pets, heads are falling off. And then it's over. So, so it's not like it wasn't a slow burn of like gradual buildup, but also for those of us who did not live through the first ten year war, I don't know, like in the moment you knew like these are important coaches and great teams and, and great games. Although frankly it's not like every game in the ten year war was a one score game. Right. I was kind of looking at that because even like in this ten year war, a lot of the games like the final score is not actually that close. But collectively it's, it's like the feeling, the year long feeling. What it means in the end more than necessarily what it meant along the way. I don't, I don't know 100% because I would say. What book you looking at? You look at the Rosenberg book Wars. They knew it.

[B]

Wars. They knew it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because guess what that is, that book, which is great by Mike Rosenberg, is about not just football, but it's about the changing society.

[B]

The backdrop of. Yeah, yeah, right. Anything interesting happening like you know, in the world. Yeah. For the last 10 years that can serve as the backdrop to that. Yeah.

[A]

And even so. But even this, I think it's the backdrop of that book in that era is, is maybe probably even more societal than this. But this time the sport's changing. Right. Like this is, this is.

[B]

Well, I don't know. I mean, yes, I think you're, you're right. But also there's like this, this 10 year 10 game chapter sort of happened.

As like the Internet really started to just like inform everything anyone does all the time, every day. And like I just Think like really just like stoked the flames of the rivalry. Yeah. That just made it far more intense, I think, than it was previous. And the personal stuff, that's gonna be.

[A]

A good chapter five. You want to take chapter five?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I mean like chapter five.

[B]

Twitter becomes X. Yeah, but I.

[A]

But I hope I. And I don't know. It's sometimes hard to be the first draft of history. This is the first draft. I hope people. I think this is indisputable. So we have to figure out the name. It's a little confusing that it's 10 games. Not 10 years. 10 game war.

[B]

You can call a 10 year war and put an asterisk on there.

[A]

So because the ass I have an asterisk for like. Yes, actually, that's right. I have asterisks. And as part of this discussion, because the asterisk carries so much weight.

[B]

It does.

[A]

The asterisk is doing a lot of work there.

[B]

It does, yeah.

[A]

The Second Ten Year War and then * basically taking up the whole book cover. And then it's a four box of Urban Meyer, Jim Harbaugh, Ryan Day and Shiron Moore. The Second Ten Year War *.

The Second Defining Decade in the greatest rivalry in college.

[B]

Football.

God. Forward by.

[A]

Connor Stallions.

I mean, like, it's so. I, I just. We're not.

[B]

Joking this. No, it's absolutely. It's 100 a book. Yeah. The problem with that, like, I don't know when Rose. When Rosenberg wrote his book.

[A]

But like.

Like 11.

[B]

Years ago. Yeah. I don't know how, how forthright would the characters be for the second 10 year war book if you were trying to start writing it, like over the.

[A]

Next year. Yeah. We might have to give it a little time. And 2008 is when it came out, so.

We'Re gonna have to give it a little time. And then I'm gonna be too old. I'm happy to. To all the young people out there who want to do it, call me. You can. I'll. You can quote me. I'll you quote me till the pages catch on fire. But I don't know if I want to actually have to write it myself. Okay. We're in agreement. Like, I just. So, like I'm up 5am heartburn looking up stats comparing these two eras. That was Dougie. I was still writing high. I felt trivia. So like, there's just a lot going on. That's what I was.

[B]

Doing. Okay. Yeah. I do think. I think you're 100. Right. I think you could have Just said it without doing all the research. People just like, yeah, of course it.

[A]

Is. Yeah. Well, I don't know, but I haven't, like, I want to claim this. I don't, I don't hear other people saying this. I haven't listened to a single thing. But yeah, so, so we're climbing it. All right. Second thing. The curse of third base, he put it. So. So Jim Harbaugh put this on Ryan Day.

And it actually ended up taking down his guy because that, it is a pretty good response of Jim Harbaugh says Ryan Day started on third base. Right. That he was handed a very successful program. And we have even talked about the status of the Michigan program that Sharon Moore was handed because Jim Harbaugh took so many of the staff to the NFL, was not to the same level of the program that Ryan Day was handed, but he still was handed a national championship team. He was not handed.

[B]

A.

[A]

Rebuild. Yeah. And obviously our, our thoughts are with any people who are the aggrieved parties, who are any victims, who are any people caught up in this and best of luck to them and best of luck to everybody involved, the family, whatever. It's a terrible situation. He blew it. He was handed this. And look where, look where it is. And so if Ryan Day was on third base, maybe Sharon Moore was like rounding second, heading to third. But whatever it was, he tripped and got tagged out two years later and here we are and his guy put this out into the world. Like it's not that hard when you're handed a program. And Sharon Moore threw.

[B]

It away.

Yeah, he did. I don't know. It was that. That always felt like an element of this that like when there was never really sort of brought up enough. And maybe it's just because, like, I don't know, Sharon Moore wanted as the interim coach and then he won it in 2024 when he was the full time coach for the first time. But the situations felt very similar to me and I guess like, you know, back when Ryan Day had first started, no one was thinking of him that way until Jim Harbaugh said what he said in 2021. But.

Yeah, it's just like, whatever, be, be careful what you put out into the world kind of thing because you never know when it's going to kind of get thrown back on you. But yeah, he absolutely was kind of given the world and, and definitely.

[A]

Blew it. Yeah. So I think it, I mean, you know, people make assumptions that just because you have opportunity that then taking advantage of that opportunity is easy or assumed or anybody would be able to do it. And this is just a reminder that the case. And so I think a lot of people along the way thought that, like, we're questioning how good of a job Sharon Moore was doing. I thought he was doing fine. I thought he was in a tough quarterback spot in year one. You understand it. They got Bryce Underwood. They were, you know, going into the Ohio State game this year. If they win, they're in the playoff. Like, it's not like they had a horrible season last year. I thought they could have tanked and instead they beat Ohio State and Alabama to end the season. There's a lot of people, I think, like, now that this is the case, I think there are even some, like Michigan people saying, like, okay, well, maybe, like this is not the worst thing, just from a coaching change standpoint, that maybe Michigan's going to wind up with somebody who's a better coach. But I, I mean, I, I did not think. And it's just results. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes at Michigan. And people. I see people referencing now that like Jack Tuttle, the former quarterback who then I think was like briefly on Michigan staff at the beginning of 2025, but now was a media guy and I think was maybe saying some stuff the last couple months that maybe there was some finger pointing in the Michigan locker room and stuff. And everyone's like, like, see now? Like, look at that. See, he was right. And it's like, okay, so now. But in the moment, I'm, I think. And just this is how fans react. That's fine. Like in the moment, you don't want to hear criticism of your program. But then once things explode, you're like, see? Oh, yeah, no, right. This was the whole thing all along, actually. This is a good thing. But did you, like. I didn't. I didn't think Michigan football was in a terrible place because she wrote more was the head coach. What did.

[B]

You think? I thought it was.

Not a terrible place, but I like it sort of. Sort of just like on the. On the Edge a little bit. And you weren't sure exactly which way it was going to go. Like, I. We had the long conversation, right, about Ryan Day, the win with humility things and stuff, and how he handled himself after finally beating Michigan, after losing four straight. Like the way that Sharon Moore acted after beating Ohio State, there was an element of like, this guy doesn't know how to act. Like this guy, this guy, this guy does not carry himself like a head coach. And I don't know that I took it any further than, like, that's kind of a strange way to act if you're the head coach and didn't consider, like, well, if he's doing this, then maybe he doesn't have a handle on things. Maybe things are a little loose within the program. So I think you can easily sort of kind of relitigate some of that in your mind now that this has happened. But I didn't think it was like, a slam dunk, right? I, I, it was just, and it's, it's, it's not dissimilar to, like, some of the thoughts you had about Ryan Day when he took over for Urban Meyer. Just like, you're handed a big thing and you've never done this before. Can you handle. So I had some of that about Jerome.

[A]

More certainly. I didn't think he had definitively proven it in two years that he couldn't. Like, I don't know that in two years he had definitively proven that he could. But I think going into next year with Bryce Underwood, with Andrew Marsh, with Andrew Babalola at left tackle, and, like, you've gotten a little better at receiver and you still have a defensive identity. And I don't know, I, I would have assumed in year two of Bryce Underwood, if none of this had happened, that Michigan would have been in the preseason playoff discussion, and there would have been some people thinking, like, I think Bryce Underwood's gonna make a leap. They did some stuff in the portal. I think Michigan's gonna, you know, go 10 and 2. I think they have a chance to make the Big Ten title game. I have them in the preseason as my nine seed in the playoff. I, I, I don't know. I, I think some people would have thought that, I don't know that they would have gone.

[B]

Into thinking. There's none of that conversation, none of that conversation's about Sharon.

[A]

Moore, though. No, but I guess it's, it's not like, wow, Sharon Moore is, is lifting Michigan to new heights. But I, I don't know that it would have been like, well, I would pick Michigan to make the playoff, but I can't with Jerome Morris coach. I, I think, like, it's, it's fine. Like, the.

[B]

Program'S okay. They're good. Yeah, I think you're probably, I think you're right that people wouldn't, wouldn't go to, I think this guy's holding them back. But like you said, there's kind of, there's two sides of that Coin. He had done nothing, I guess, to prove that he couldn't handle it, but wasn't like there was a lot on there that said he could either. Yeah, because I don't even, like. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that he handled 2024 great. He was in a tough situation roster wise, I suppose. But like, that team for a while played pretty poorly until it beat Ohio State.

And like, even this year they were like we talked about, like, early in the year, like they played differently when Sherrone Moore wasn't around. Right. Like, like the offense looked a little, a little more explosive and fun and innovative when Sherry Moore was suspended for two games. So I don't know, I'm not trying to pretend like everyone was questioning Sharon more along the way. That certainly wasn't the case. But.

He had not yet like, stamped himself either as like a guy who was going to lead a championship.

[A]

Program either.

Okay. Second ten year war. The Curse of third base. The curse of third base now leads into the third thing, which if the Curse of Third Base is actually the book that we write, then it will be filled with a lot of the things that we're going to talk about now, which is, did Michigan sell its soul to the devil?

And by that I mean, and I would start that with 2021. They win.

And break their losing streak. They have a good football team and Jim Harbaugh comes in and chooses to go at it like that. Right.

And if you think about where Michigan was as a program then and where it is now, and the real part of this is the death of the Michigan man. The Michigan man is dead.

And the question is.

Should he be? And I think the answer maybe is yes. Because the real point of the third point here to me is I think in this era you just have to admit that you're trying to win football games and the high and mighty stuff that we're trying to beat you, but also we're a higher caliber of person, we have higher standards than you when it comes to this.

This certainly more than that. But I think even the way, like what's happened with Notre Dame in the last week, that Notre Dame, I think has a reputation or, or perception, fair or not, of maybe trying to hold itself above the fray while competing at the highest level, some people are taking shots at them for like, oh, you didn't get in, now you quit. Okay, great. Way to go, Notre Dame. And so I just think maybe in the modern era, the sign that you should hit when you walk on the Field.

Is. We're trying to win a football game. Bang. It's like, hey guys, we are trying to win a football game. It's like, yeah, that's what everybody does. It's like, yeah, no, I know. But it's not bigger than that because why should it be? Because you set yourself up for failure. And this I think, maybe not failure, but you set yourself up for ridicule. As soon as you try to behave, try to act as if the thing you are doing is above the fray. When actually if you're a big time football program, what you're really doing is trying to win football games. That doesn't mean everybody's exactly the same. But even if you want to hold yourself to a higher standard, don't make signs about it, don't give speeches about it, just try to win the football game. And you can go find it. From the 25 year winter where we talked about like library culture and like, what is the point of this? Why are you doing 10 million things that are like, oh yeah, no, all they care about is football. But then you're like, oh no, no, no, all they care about is football. We care about football, but we also care about this. It's like dead. Let's just stop.

Because I think there is a question I want to ask you. But like, is the Michigan man dead? Is trying to act like are above the fray while you are pursuing football.

[B]

Victories dead? Well, yeah, but I'm, I. This did not get me there because like, well, I guess it's a question of.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Is. Does. Is every Michigan head coach sort of like cloaked in the Michigan man idea? I don't know, like regardless of sort of where they came from or how long they've been in Michigan, I don't know the answer to that. I guess that's not for me to define. But Jim Harbaugh was like the quit to Central Michigan man and he cheated his butt off to win a national title. So like, that's when it died for me. I guess this can be the exclamation point of that if you, if you want to make it that. But like the Michigan man for me died two years ago when Jim Harbaugh decided to use espionage as a means of winning the national championship. So but then this is all like, this is just like another sort of embarrassing layer to that in a very different way, but.

[A]

Embarrassing nonetheless. What's the reverse of the undertaker meme? Whereas instead of like, oh, he's actually not dead, it's like, oh no, he's Even more dead than I.

[B]

Realized. Right. It's. What's the. Yeah. I don't know. The one. The one meme of the guy who's, like, knelt down next to a gravestone, like, doing this, like, posing next to it like that maybe.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm like, the Michigan man is dead. And you're like, no, I know he was dead two years ago, but it's like. But now he's extra.

[B]

Dead. Right.

[A]

Yeah, we. Because it's just. You. You can't do this. And I just. I. So. And the question is, so. So if you were. And this is the thing. It's really. It's a classic. Like, it's a classic Greek tragedy or whatever, or Shakespearean. Right. That you are something, and then in trying to strive to be something more, you give up who you are and you get what you wanted, but you gave up your soul to get there, and was it.

[B]

Worth.

[A]

It? Yeah. So. So if you could say to Michigan fans right now, you can either, let's give them the 2021 win. And let's. Let's say that Jim Harbaugh comes in after the 2021 win and is like, I'll tell you what, that's a great football game. That's a great football team. I have so much respect for the Ohio State Buckeyes. They challenged us to be at our best, and we are who we are today in part because we have a. That. I am so proud to be part of this rivalry. I look forward to competing against Ohio State for the next decade. This rivalry is college football at its best, and I just want to say congratulations to Ryan Day on the program that you have built there, and I look forward to competing against you for as long as we possibly can. Let's say he said that. So you get the win in 21, and then, like, Michigan maybe makes the playoff in 21, but maybe falls back a little bit to, like, what they had been under Harbaugh, which is very good, but not quite national title container contender. They don't win the Natty. They don't win four straight against Ohio State. Let's say they split the next four. They win in 21 and they win in 23, but Ohio State wins in 22 and 24. Everything else for Ohio State stays the same. Maybe Ohio State gets an extra Natty because they beat Michigan along the way. It's pretty clear that Ohio State is. Is a better program than Michigan. Nobody's debating that. But Michigan's not getting its butt beat every year. Michigan is Competing with Ohio State. Michigan is a good program. Michigan is involved in the 12 team playoff, but they don't have a natty and they're just more of like and two kind of team. But they are Michigan men. And as the sport changes around them, maybe some people think they're falling behind a little bit. But the reason they're falling behind is because at their core, they are different. They are above the fray. And that means they're not quite competing at the top of the sport. But Jim Harbaugh is still there. Bo Schambeckler never won a national title. Jim Harbaugh never won a national title. They're both still great men and great coaches and great Michigan men. And that's what Michigan football is right now. No Connor Stallions, no Sharon Moore. Harbaugh there is winning, making Michigan fans proud that he is their coach. Annoying Ohio State fans, but he is mostly proud to represent the rivalry. But they're not quite as good. They're not. They're not the team at the top of the sport that they were for three years. That's option one. What actually happened is option two. What do Michigan.

[B]

People take?

[A]

Option two. Okay. I'm just setting it. I'm just.

[B]

Asking, right? I think the. Oh. I mean, I'm sure there are some who might take option one, but I think most of them will take the.

[A]

National championship. I'm just asking. I just asked. Just asked. It's a. It's an option. I don't. I'm not trying to be fanciful. I'm like trying to give people options for how you want to behave in life. I'm just saying. I think there's a version of that. Not because people would be like. Because it's like, well, Jim Harbaugh would never say that. What if the whole thing with Jim Harbaugh, was it just making him a maniac because he couldn't beat Ohio State? And the first time he beat Ohio beat Ohio State, he was like, okay, we did it. We beat Ohio State. I'm just gonna chill out a little bit now. We're still gonna try our best, but I'm not gonna climb trees. I'm not gonna take shots at Gene Smith. I'm not gonna rabble rouse like we did. We did what I came here to do, which is bring Michigan back to the top tier of the sport. And the first sign of that is at least competing with our most heated rival on the field. And this win in 2021, which was. I still, I think. And even if Connor Stallions Was dorking around is still a legitimate football when I think, be proud of that. That's what we are. I like, as I make up that world, that doesn't feel impossible to me. Right. But they wanted something more.

[B]

To win with humility, one might say. Yeah.

Certainly. Yeah, it's. It's. It's possible. Yeah, for sure. The other thing about that, though is, like, if.

Because handling that 20, 21 win the way that he did was like, had such a profound impact on the way that Ryan Day approaches the game that, like, if he had just won with humility in 21, Ohio State probably would have just beat him the.

[A]

Next.

[B]

Year. Yeah. And maybe the next.

[A]

Couple.

[B]

Years. Right. Yeah. So, like, yes. That. Him, him, him saying that was fundamental to the success. Right. I would say, like, maybe like as fundamental as the Stallion stuff because it just put Ryan Day in a really bad mental space relative to.

[A]

That game. And that leads us to the fourth thing, which is making sports personal. And it is just a very dangerous place. And the, and the. I think there's a lot of media culpability here.

Listen, there's media jack holes all over the place. A lot of people think I'm one of them. Like, it's fine. There are just a few people just, again, like, going through Michigan stuff. There are some. There are a couple people up there cover Michigan that I'm just like, are you a real human? What is this. Is this being. Is this cosplay of being a reporter? I don't even understand what you're attempting to be here. There's one person in particular that I'm thinking of that, like, there are just like five parts of it that are like, I cannot believe this is real. This can't be how an actual person behaves. But anyway.

Michigan, some Michigan media, certainly not all. There's good and bad in every profession in every walk of life. Right. Angelique Shingelis is a tremendous reporter. Right. Aaron McMahon does a great [e-mail] we know of the. Right. So Aaron Austin Meek does a great job at the Athletic. Right. Like real people.

Some of the stuff put up by the Michigan media about, like, was Ryan Day's brother involved in the. In the beginning of the investigation of Connor Stallions? Some of the stuff that certainly offended Ohio State fans, whether. I don't. I don't even know exactly. Like, but Jordan Marshall this year, the Michigan running back, like, maybe a little bit of Tony Alfred. Like, you know, Sharon Moore is a good guy. Like, we're not saying that. Like, whatever, like but trying to make it a little personal about the head coaches, that there's a difference between these type.

[B]

Of people.

Like, there was stuff from Michigan media, too, about Joey Velasquez. Just like, kind of fan of those flames a.

[A]

Little bit. Yeah. And so, like, football results. What was your scheme? You know, whatever. Like, that's all fair game.

When you start crossing the threshold into, like, our guy's a good guy and your guy is. It's dangerous territory. You are begging for that to come back.

[B]

On you. It almost always ends.

[A]

Poorly. Yeah. And the point is, we don't know these people for real. So I think you learn this. I think you learn it as a fan over time. You certainly learn it as a media member over time. What somebody presents to the world professionally, and we know them professionally, what they present professionally, like, can be real, but it also is not necessarily real. So to ascribe virtue to people based on how they present themselves at work and to start down the path of good guy, bad guy, just be smarter than that, especially as a media member. These are people who are paid to win football games. And whether it's the Michigan man conversation, whether it's this personal kind of stuff, I just. It's. I hope we are at the point. No offense, defense. I don't really care what the grades of the players are. I don't really care about what they do off the field. Because the thing I always think about is there are wonderful people out there all over the place.

That nobody talks about. Because doing wonderful, generous acts is not really kind of what people are interested in. They're interested in high level achievement of entertaining things. So why can't we just evaluate people on whether they do their job in the thing that is here to entertain us? And why do we have to even care? Now, if you're out there putting the. Putting the community at risk with your behavior, Georgia, I care about that. But, like, if you're a good person, I. There's a million. There's a gazillion good people. And most of those gazillion good people don't run a 4:3. And most of those gazillion good people can't shed a block and make a tackle. So that's why we don't talk about them. We talk about you for the sports stuff. Why do we have to get bogged down in the other stuff? Because it might be true, but it also might not be true. And the point is, we don't.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Know. Yeah. So why. Why are people so eager to be like you know what? That guy, he might be a good football coach, but he's never better person. It's like, he's not paid to be a good person. He's paid to be a football coach. Because if we're paying people to be good people, no offense to the coach. I got a million people lined up here. I got a million. Look at this preschool teacher. She is awesome. She doesn't know anything about the Coffee House Blitz, so that's why she is not the football coach. But would you like us to do a podcast on this preschool teacher who is a wonderful person? No, because it's not that interesting. Okay, then why are we talking about whether the coach is a great person who cares coach football? Because you don't. No, we don't.

[B]

Really know.

Yeah. And it's like, I think I would hope it's okay to sort of, like, admit that. And I think also in saying that, it doesn't mean that there's an assumption, like, actually every football coach is a total person. It's just okay to just, like, not talk about them in that way. Because, like, it's like a parasocial relationship. You have no idea. Like, you don't know. And then, like, it turns out that whatever, the one out of every thousand that are like, a truly a bad dude, you just look foolish in the end. Right. So why. Why would you put yourself in that it was even happening? Like, I saw a clip before we started, and, like, someone was talking about, like, who could Michigan hire? And they were talking about a coach. I was like, you know, Yep. Above all things, like, he's a really good guy. It's like, you're doing it again. Just stop. Just say he's a good.

[A]

Football.

[B]

Coach. Yeah. That's all you have to say. And I'm sure he is a great guy, but just in case he's not, stop.

[A]

Saying that. He is. Right. And that's not why he's.

[B]

Being.

[A]

Hired. Yeah. Because you know. You know, you know who are some good people beyond.

You know, EMTs and beyond.

Plumbers who come to your house when your pipes break and beyond, like, all these people who have jobs that are also wonderful people. There's some wonderful foreign a coaches. God, they're good people. Nobody wants to hire him because that's not what the job is. It is not a hire the best person. It's not. It's a bonus. So, like, let's. So I. Can we all just be smarter? I hope. I hope. And. And we're not yelling at fans because fans, it's you fall in love with, with, with.

[B]

Your team. Yeah. No.

[A]

It'S media.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Media. Yeah.

[B]

Be smarter. They'll love your coach. If you're.

[A]

A.

[B]

Fan. Yeah. Ding dong if you're a.

[A]

Media person. God.

Because in the end, it's just like most everybody is the same. They're probably a pretty okay person who's trying to win. And also, frankly, a lot of times, again, I've said this a million times because my sister used to work in politics. Like, you practically have to be. Kind of have something wrong with you to be good in certain jobs. And it's like, oh, it's like, I'm not sure I want a good person. Like, I don't want, like, I don't want a horrible person running my football program or, like being my congress person, but I might want somebody with some ruthlessness and an edge who's not really caught up in everybody's feelings because they want to get stuff done at the highest level and they'll kind of run over who's ever in their way to do it. Actually, that's kind of what I want. So, like, can we just admit that? God.

Okay.

[B]

Lessons learned. We'll put this. I would.

[A]

Hope so. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Second ten year war. We got to find a name. I'm claim. We're claiming this. I want people to say, oh, I heard the Bill and Doug Show. They were talking about how second ten year war. I didn't.

[B]

Realize that. Yeah, we got. We're gonna have to battle John U. Bacon, I think, to write the.

[A]

Book, though. No, that's true. But he wrote a book about a ship, so we're not writing ship books. So we're. Okay. He was at a. He was. He said on his Twitter account, John U. Bacon, who's like a Michigan historian, sports and.

[B]

Non sports.

[A]

Halifax Explosion. Yeah. So he was like, I'm at my Boat Explosion book talk. I. I'll have to check in on Sharon more later. You know what? We weren't at a Boat Explosion book talk. We were at ELF Trivia, though. So, like, people have priorities. It's fine. Yeah, but he might, he might not want to do that because does he want to dive in on, like, how Michigan sold.

[B]

Its soul? I mean, he's, he's going like, as a guy who's. Who is. I think at times, and I think maybe fairly so viewed as Michigan friendly, clearly he feels like he's going pretty hard at the way that this all.

[A]

Was handled. Oh, yeah. A lot of people, I think, are wondering What? What? Ward Manual, the athletic director, knew and when he knew it. So that could be another. Another thing going.

[B]

On here. That's a separate book.

Of.

[A]

Our.

[B]

Book. Yeah. Chapter of our book. Or it can be a separate book board. Manual's entire tenure.

[A]

At Michigan. That's true. Which is also one of those. He was the committee chair of the Plath committee last year. You know what he shouldn't have been doing? Spending any time on that scrap as all, like, who knew? Who knows what's going on at Michigan or anywhere else? You fuck 30 sports at the highest level, and you have no idea what's going on with half of it. Don't go to Grapevine to talk about who the 22nd best college team in America should be. It's not your job. Get someone else to do it. If I was a president, no way would I let my ads be on those committees because I just think it's fun and cool. It doesn't help the school at all. It did not help Michigan at all to have Ward Manuel be the spokesperson for the committee last year. It.

[B]

Hurt.

[A]

Michigan. Yeah. Nobody thinks that's cool. They think you're a ding dong. Go take care of your, like, go watch your house. You left. You left that. You had a house sitter come over and then guess what?

You don't know what goes on in your house when the house sitter is there. I was gonna get worse than that, but I'm not. It's not fun. So I hope. I hope everybody involved.

Comes out. From a personal standpoint, you know, that. That matters. There are real people here involved. But no offense, this isn't a real people show, this sports show. So, like, this is the Michigan football coach got fired. So best of luck to everybody involved. That stuff sucks. Michigan's in a weird spot.

[B]

Do you. Are you in agreement with me that they're. They need to, like, kind of wash them. Wash away the heart, all the.

[A]

Harbors that. I mean, I said John Harbaugh when the news came out, like 14 seconds after you told me, so that feels wrong. Although I did see John Harbaugh on somebody else's.

[B]

List.

[A]

Probably.

[B]

Yeah. And. And not that there are, like. That's like the Jesse Minter conversation, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I certainly, like, I saw Jake Butt. Your friend and mine do a pretty. Pretty.

You know, I don't want to say impassioned, but, like, smart. Like, Jed Fish backed post on his Twitter and Jed Fish had been there for like a year under Jim Harbaugh. I don't Know that, like, Jed Fish is, like, on the Harbaugh tree, you know? Like, I don't think he owes his career to Jim Harbaugh. So I think you could dip in there without it being, like, a Harbaugh guy.

[B]

Necessarily. Right. That's probably. Yeah, that's probably the cleanest version of, like, a familiar hire that they could do. He was only. Yeah, he 15, 16. He was there, but it doesn't look like.

I guess he had worked for John.

In the NFL maybe. But that was the only time he worked.

[A]

With Jim. Yeah. And I guess what, everyone's putting Caleb DeBoer on the list. And Caleb or tweeted like, I'm not going.

[B]

To Michigan. Oh, did he? I don't know. It's like, Kaylin Deborah can get the Michigan job if he loses. It's like, well, how many, like, how many caveats we're gonna place on Kaylin? Like, I don't think.

[A]

He'S.

[B]

Leaving. He's. I think he's just gonna.

[A]

Stay.

[B]

There. Yeah. And everyone else got new deals because of Penn State, so I don't really know what they're.

[A]

Gonna do. Yeah, I don't know what they're gonna do. Yeah.

Maybe they can get Dave Portnoy off the show. Now, is that a reason to get Dave? Like, does that be the extra? And by the way, Dave Portnoy is fired just because Michigan's such a mess. They also fired Dave Portnoy. Just get him off.

[B]

The show. Fox is also absolving itself of any.

[A]

Michigan connection. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, crazy stuff, man. All right. Try rollback. Go get a shirt for Christmas. R H O-B-A-K.com Bad 20 is the code B A D20. Like, subscribe. Tell a friend about the Bill and Doug Show. If you want more Ohio State coverage from us, check out our substack, Bill and Doug. O osu.substack.com we got more stuff planned here. We actually had a meeting. We had a plan, a meeting. We're gonna do this video. We're gonna do that video. And then stuff exploded. So we're not going to be short on content, Bill, but I'm glad we had.

[B]

This conversation. No, we're not. We will not be short on content. And I don't know what we're going to talk to people next. Is it like, like, Ohio.

[A]

State.

[B]

People? Probably. Probably won't be until, like, right before Christmas.

[A]

I think. Yeah. So let's talk to ourselves. What else is new? All right. Thanks, you guys, for being here. For now. He's Bill Landis, I'm Doug Lemurice, and that was the Bill and.