The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk

Episode: Sherrone Moore Is Fired, and in the Ohio State-Michigan Rivalry, The Second Ten-Year War Ends
Date: December 11, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis

Episode Overview

In this episode, Doug and Bill dive into Michigan's stunning firing of head football coach Sherrone Moore. Rather than focusing on the specifics of Michigan's internal crisis, they consider what it means for the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry, particularly the close of what they dub "The Second Ten-Year War," a high-stakes, personality-driven decade in college football’s greatest rivalry. The conversation explores the changing nature of the rivalry, the pitfalls of claims to “moral superiority” in programs, the dangers of personalizing sports narratives, and what the end of this era could mean for both schools moving forward. The tone is conversational, irreverent, and deeply knowledgeable, with reflections rooted in decades of covering Ohio State and college football.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Why No Emergency Podcast? (00:06–02:02)

• Doug explains that they waited to discuss Moore’s firing to let more facts emerge and because they’re not deeply embedded Michigan reporters.
• Both hosts reiterate that their analysis is from an Ohio State perspective, with Ohio State fans as their main audience.

2. The Second Ten-Year War: An Era Ends (03:23–16:16)

Defining the "Second Ten-Year War" (03:23–11:29)

• Doug compares the last decade of Ohio State–Michigan to the original Ten-Year War (Woody Hayes vs. Bo Schembechler, 1969–78), claiming this modern era matches it in intensity and stakes.
• Key comparisons:
  • Each war began after an Ohio State national championship and Michigan hiring a new head coach (Harbaugh in 2015, Bo in 1969).
  • Each ends suddenly with the shocking firing or ejection of one coach (Woody’s punch; Moore’s firing).
  • Both periods feature highly-ranked, elite teams and decided Big Ten supremacy annually.
• "We just finished... the Second Ten-Year War. Here are all the comparisons between the last ten games in the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry and that wonderful 10-year period..." — Doug (04:15)
• Both reflect on stakes: while every winner in the original era went to the Rose Bowl, the modern era often sent the OSU-Michigan winner to the College Football Playoff.

Statistical Parallels & Contrasts (07:35–10:07)

• Similar numbers of highly ranked teams, upsets, and competitive balance.
  • Modern era is slightly more offense-heavy.
  • Parallels in how dominance shifted within eras.

Personalities Defined the Rivalry (10:07–11:29)

• Identity transitions from head coach to successor (Meyer → Day, Harbaugh → Moore), but each era is personality-driven.
• Doug asserts: “This is a line in the rivalry... We will look back on this 10 year[stretch] with the same... level of personality, stakes, balance, [and] excellence on both sides.”

The Weight of Shenanigans (10:30, 16:13)

• "Significantly more shenanigans." — Bill (10:30)
• The modern rivalry has featured more controversy and scandal (e.g., NCAA investigations, suspensions).

3. The Curse of Third Base (17:26–24:48)

• Reflects on Harbaugh’s infamous claim that Ryan Day “started on third base.”
• The curse seemed to turn on Moore — he inherited a strong program but ultimately "blew it."
• “If Ryan Day was on third base, maybe Sherrone Moore was like rounding second, heading to third. But whatever it was, he tripped and got tagged out two years later.” — Doug (18:21)
• Discussion of overreaction and hindsight bias among fans when things go wrong.

4. Just Admit You’re Trying to Win (25:07–29:23)

• Doug and Bill critique the pretense that programs like Michigan or Notre Dame operate on a higher moral plane (“the Michigan Man”).
  • "The Michigan Man is dead. And the question is: should he be? And I think the answer maybe is yes." — Doug (25:47)
• Suggest that in this era, claiming to be “above the fray” merely sets a school up for public ridicule or hypocrisy charges.
• "In the modern era, the sign that you should hit when you walk on the field is: we're trying to win a football game. Bang." — Doug (26:45)
• Bill asserts the "Michigan Man" ideal ended when Harbaugh "cheated his butt off to win a national title." (28:12)

A Counterfactual: Was It Worth It? (29:23–34:21)

• Doug poses the ethical trade-off: Would Michigan fans prefer “clean” success with fewer trophies or recent years’ wins tainted by scandal? (They agree most will take the titles, even with the baggage.)

5. The Dangers of Making It Personal (34:21–41:01)

• Both discuss how media and fans try to paint rival coaches as paragons or villains — a dangerous game.
  • “When you start crossing the threshold into, like, our guy's a good guy and your guy isn't — it's dangerous territory.” — Doug (36:17)
• They caution that ascribing virtue to coaches is foolish since most fans or even reporters don’t know them personally.
• “Why do we have to even care? ... coach football. Because you don't. ... We don't really know.” — Doug (38:26)
• Bill: “You have no idea. And then, like, it turns out that ... one out of every thousand [is] truly a bad dude, you just look foolish in the end.” (39:20–40:03)
• The hosts urge media to drop the "good guy/bad guy" narrative and focus on coaching results.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the end of an era:
  • “This is a line in the rivalry... We will look back on this 10 year[stretch] with ... a similar level of personality, ... balance, ... excellence...” — Doug (10:07)
• On the shift from high-mindedness to pure competition:
  • "The Michigan Man is dead. ... The real point ... is I think, in this era, you just have to admit that you're trying to win football games..." — Doug (25:50)
• On the pitfalls of personal narratives:
  • “When you start crossing ... into ‘our guy’s a good guy and your guy isn’t’ ... you are begging for that to come back on you. It almost always ends poorly.” — Doug (36:17 & 36:31)
• On fans and perspective:
  • “There’s a million ... good people. ... We talk about you for the sports stuff. Why do we have to get bogged down in the other stuff?” — Doug (37:35)
• Meta Reflection:
  • "Sometimes it's hard to be the first draft of history. This is the first draft." — Doug (15:07)
  • “You can call it a Ten-Year War and put an asterisk on there.” — Bill (15:24)
• Book concept:
  • Joking about writing a book called “The Second Ten Year War” with a foreword by Connor Stallions (16:00).

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:02] Doug’s Four Points Overview (ten-year war, curse of third base, just admit you’re trying to win, the dangers of making it personal)
• [03:23–11:29] The Second Ten-Year War: What it means, how rivals’ personalities and competitive balance defined an era
• [17:26–24:48] Harbaugh’s “third base” quote, inheriting programs, and what that really means
• [25:07–29:23] The “Michigan Man” myth and why public moral posturing backfires
• [34:21–41:01] The perils of personalizing the rivalry in the media and among fans

Tone & Additional Highlights

• The hosts maintain a friendly, slightly irreverent, and deeply informed tone, often poking fun at themselves and the broader college football ecosystem.
• There’s much meta-commentary about how history is written, how narratives are shaped in real time, and how the media can distort rivalries by making them about more than just football.
• Joking references to book-writing and media personalities add levity: “The Second Ten Year War*” with an asterisk so big it covers the cover, foreword by Connor Stallions (16:00).
• Hosts reinforce: they’re not Michigan insiders, and their takes are intentionally from the Ohio State side.

Summary

If you missed this episode, you missed a broad, historical, and philosophical reflection on the end of the latest epic era in Ohio State-Michigan football. Doug and Bill see Sherrone Moore’s firing as the final act in a decade defined by huge stakes, remarkable personalities, scandals, and shifting institutional values. They challenge notions of program morality, caution against deifying (or demonizing) coaches, and ultimately argue that on-field results and the will to win define legacies more than any public-relations-driven code of conduct. Michigan’s next move, they suggest, will set the tone for a new chapter in the rivalry — but the drama of the “Second Ten-Year War” may never be matched.