What can Ohio State QB Julian Sayin do in The Game differently than Will Howard and Kyle McCord?

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk

Episode: What can Ohio State QB Julian Sayin do in The Game differently than Will Howard and Kyle McCord?
Date: November 25, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis (Blue Wire)

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Overview

In this episode, Doug and Bill dig deep into Ohio State’s last three matchups against Michigan, focusing on the quarterback position and its pivotal role in these rivalry games. They examine how past mistakes from Will Howard and Kyle McCord swung outcomes, and analyze what Julian Sayin brings to the table this year—especially when it comes to avoiding catastrophic turnovers. The discussion is rich in stats, play-by-play recollections, context on big-picture program trends, and plenty of passion for the rivalry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Turning Points in Recent Ohio State-Michigan Games

• Doug and Bill reflect on the bizarre and frustrating losses to Michigan (2022-24), repeatedly emphasizing the “fine margins” in those games.
• They note how turnovers by the quarterback early in the game have directly led to Michigan touchdowns on short fields (“on a platter”), which has dramatically influenced outcomes in favor of Michigan.
  • Quote—Bill Landis [01:54]: "Each of the last two years Ohio State set up Michigan for its first touchdown by throwing an interception that was returned inside the 10 yard line. And that's how Michigan scored its two touchdown, its opening touchdowns each of the last two years."

2. Quarterback Comparison: McCord, Howard, and Sayin

• The hosts cite advanced stats revealing that both Kyle McCord (2023) and Will Howard (2024) had high rates of "big time throws" but also a concerning number of "turnover-worthy plays" heading into the Michigan matchups.
• In a stark contrast, Julian Sayin’s 2025 performance is characterized by efficiency and ball security.
  • Stat breakdown:
    • McCord (2023, pre-Michigan): 16 big time throws, 13 turnover-worthy plays (11 games)
    • Howard (2024, pre-Michigan): 13 big time throws, 11 turnover-worthy plays
    • Sayin (2025, pre-Michigan): 16 big time throws, only 4 turnover-worthy plays; in Big Ten play, 13 big time throws, 2 turnover-worthy plays
  • Bill Landis [05:55]: "I think a key to this game for Ohio State is not throwing a pick to Michigan that gives Michigan the ball inside the 10 yard line in the first quarter and sets up their first touchdown. And I think based on the stats and what our eyeballs have been telling us, I think Julian Sayin is less likely to do it than either Will Howard or Kyle McCord."

3. Why the Past Quarterbacks Struggled in 'The Game'

• Bill offers a macro stat on forced errors:
  • In the last 3 years, Ohio State’s starting QB threw 2 interceptions in each Michigan game.
  • Across 39 other games in those seasons, only once did the starter throw 2 INTs.
  • Bill [06:30]: "The starting quarterback for Ohio State the Last, the previous three seasons, 22, 23, 24. The starting quarterback threw two picks in four games. Three of them were the three Michigan games."
• Doug and Bill discuss how these were not just “desperation” late picks—early mistakes handed easy points to Michigan; later, higher-risk throws as the game slipped away compounded the issues.

4. Julian Sayin’s Strengths and Mentality

• Julian Sayin is praised for making few errors of commission, even if sometimes he's too conservative or "gun shy" on open deep shots.
  • Doug Lamoris [15:09]: "It has been an ongoing conversation with Julian Sayin this year, like, is he at times a little bit gun shy?...But while you can be frustrated at times...it could also be the thing that gives you a little bit of comfort going into this game."
• Sayin’s command of the offense and propensity to “live to play another play” by checking down, rather than forcing a throw, are seen as positives (especially after watching Howard and McCord force throws in past years).

5. Efficiency and Playcalling

• The hosts discuss key moments where previous QBs forced throws to covered receivers on critical downs.
• There is optimism that Sayin, with better pocket presence and a preference for safer options, is less likely to repeat those mistakes.
  • Bill Landis [23:24]: "Ohio State makes throwing the ball look so easy...and there’s just so many throws in 23 and 24 where it doesn't look easy. And I just think those quarterbacks did not play their best games."
• Playcalling and mindset also come under the microscope, with more faith placed in this year’s play design and talent utilization.

6. Supporting Cast and Defensive Improvements

• With Jeremiah Smith’s status (likely to play) and a more dynamic receiving corps, plus a more athletic, efficient defense, Ohio State’s matchup this year is considered more favorable.
• Michigan’s secondary is assessed as "not particularly impressive," giving further confidence.
  • Doug Lamoris [20:39]: "I just for the life of me can't fathom another year where they, where they don't build their like, plan around using their best players. Which, which in this game would be Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate..."

7. What Must Change for Ohio State to Win

• The mistake patterns from the past (backbreaking turnovers, special teams gaffes, defensive breakdowns) are not characteristic of the current team.
• The consensus: if Ohio State avoids handing Michigan easy points through quarterback turnovers and doesn’t give up explosive plays on defense, the Buckeyes should have a strong chance.
  • Doug Lamoris [27:32]: "...I don't think this defense for Ohio State will give up five 50 yard plays and I don't think this quarterback is going to throw it to Michigan. So then if those things are taken away, then that's how Michigan won the last three games. That’s why I wanted to do a podcast."

8. Mental and Emotional Factors

• The hosts warn that “catastrophic” mistakes would be almost entirely mental/emotional given the team’s makeup—if it happens, it would be contrary to this group’s identity.
  • Bill Landis [30:29]: "If they do make catastrophic mistakes, I think that is almost entirely mental and emotional. Then something is broken with this team because that is not the [case]..."

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Bill Landis [01:54]:
  "Each of the last two years Ohio State set up Michigan for its first touchdown by throwing an interception that was returned inside the 10 yard line..."

• Bill Landis [05:55]:
  "I think a key to this game for Ohio State is not throwing a pick to Michigan that gives Michigan the ball inside the 10 yard line in the first quarter and sets up their first touchdown. And I think...Julian Sayin is less likely to do it than either Will Howard or Kyle McCord."

• Doug Lamoris [15:09]:
  "It has been an ongoing conversation with Julian Sayin this year, like, is he at times a little bit gun shy?...But while you can be frustrated at times...it could also be the thing that gives you a little bit of comfort going into this game."

• Doug Lamoris [20:39]:
  "I just for the life of me can't fathom another year where they, where they don't build their like, plan around using their best players. Which, which in this game would be Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate..."

• Bill Landis [23:24]:
  "Ohio State makes throwing the ball look so easy...and there’s just so many throws in 23 and 24 where it doesn't look easy. And I just think those quarterbacks did not play their best games."

• Doug Lamoris [27:32]:
  "...I don't think this defense for Ohio State will give up five 50 yard plays and I don't think this quarterback is going to throw it to Michigan. So then if those things are taken away, then that's how Michigan won the last three games. That’s why I wanted to do a podcast."

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:56-05:55] – Doug and Bill break down how turnovers have cost the Buckeyes in recent editions of ‘The Game’ and introduce the big stat discrepancy with Julian Sayin’s efficiency.
• [06:01-11:59] – Deep dive on why past QBs (Howard, McCord) struggled, and how turnovers have swung games. Discussion on how Sayin changes the equation.
• [13:26-16:55] – Analysis of Will Howard’s up-and-down Michigan performance, and why efficiency—and not just explosiveness—matters in 'The Game.'
• [19:36-22:17] – Discussion on playcallers’ role, Michigan’s secondary, and how having healthy receivers (like Jeremiah Smith) could change the script.
• [23:24-27:32] – Concrete examples of past bad throws/decisions, reflection on improved pocket presence and anticipation with Sayin.
• [30:00-33:32] – The mental/emotional challenge of rivalry games and how this year’s team is built differently.
• [36:52-37:09] – Bill points out that Michigan QB Bryce Underwood has more recent turnover-worthy plays than Sayin; raises the stakes for 'The Game.'
• [38:22-39:24] – Closing thoughts, upcoming coverage for fans.

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Summary Table: QB Metrics Heading into 'The Game'

| Year | Quarterback | Big Time Throws | Turnover Worthy Plays | INTs in 'The Game' | |------|--------------|-----------------|----------------------|--------------------| | 2023 | Kyle McCord | 16 | 13 | 2 | | 2024 | Will Howard | 13 | 11 | 2 | | 2025 | Julian Sayin | 16 | 4 (2 in Big Ten) | TBD |

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Final Takeaways

• The podcast paints Julian Sayin as a different, steadier hand at quarterback—his ability to avoid costly turnovers (in contrast to his predecessors) could be the decisive factor in this year’s Ohio State-Michigan matchup.
• The 2025 Buckeyes are not plagued by the same issues that doomed prior teams: Their quarterback is cautious but efficient, the star receivers are (hopefully) healthy, playcalling seems more attuned to the team’s strengths, and the defense rarely yields explosive plays.
• If the Buckeyes avoid the kind of self-inflicted wounds (early INTs, blown coverages, special teams gaffes) that have repeatedly handed Michigan pivotal points, Doug and Bill are optimistic about Ohio State’s chances in the rivalry.

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For further insights and full game breakdowns, watch for additional episodes and join their Substack community.

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Transcript

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[Bill Landis]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. So High State Michigan week, Doug Lamoris and Bill Landis just dropping a little, little morsel here on a Tuesday morning. Little, little breakfast snack. Bill Landis as we get ready to speak with Ryan Day on Tuesday and I was just telling you I've just whipped through the last three Ohio State Michigan games. 2022, 2023, 2024. Primarily the offensive side of the ball for Ohio State, but also checking out some other things and, and I feel like a lunatic. How has Ohio State lost these games? Did you know last year Ohio State missed two field goals in the 30s and Michigan made a 54 yarder. Did you know that happened last year?

[Doug Lamoris]

Did you know that Michigan had two scoring drives last year that accounted for five total yards?

[Bill Landis]

Did you know?

[Doug Lamoris]

Touchdown driver and a three yard field goal drive.

[Bill Landis]

Did you know that each of the last two years Ohio State set up Michigan for its first touchdown by throwing an interception that was returned inside the 10 yard line. And that's how Michigan scored its two touchdown, its opening touchdowns each of the last two years. And last year it was their only touchdown on a platter.

[Doug Lamoris]

Well, I knew that about last year. I actually, I don't remember a whole lot from the 2022 game. The two things I remember from 2022 are, excuse me, 2023.

[Bill Landis]

23 3.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, yeah. 2023 are the random drive where like they turned into army and Navy and just ran it down Michigan's throat for a touchdown and was like where did that come from? And then the inter, the Interception at the end.

[Bill Landis]

The, the first pick was the one where it was like a quick little slant to Marv and it was, oh, was it McCord's fault? Was it Marv's fault? I don't know. Did he not fight hard enough for it? Did McCord lead him too much and they returned it like to the nine and set up the first touchdown of the game. This is the thing and it's like why even this is our job and why you have to do this because once the game is in the history books, it just becomes part of the stew. This delicious, wonderful 120 year old stew with all these ingredients, right? But when you think about the game by itself, itself, you can really break down how it happened. But when you think about the totality, you get to Ohio State's lost four straight and then if that's your only analysis, it's like, hey, it's Ohio State, Michigan week, they've lost four straight, what are they going to do? But you go back and you watch the football and it's like they are the better team every single time. What is wrong? We know Connor Stallions is part of it, but there's also something I think very specific, specific about this game that we want to talk about here when it comes to quarterback play and it relates to what I just said which is Kyle McCord and Will Howard the last two years early in the game through bad picks that set up Michigan for seven points and the Will Howard thing, the first pick was before he got hit. So this is fresh, ready to roll. Will Howard. And here's the thing I want to talk about as we think about going into this Michigan game. Bill, thanks for being here by the way everybody. 2023, Kyle McCord going into the Michigan game according to PFF, had 16 big time throws and 13 turnover worthy plays for the 11 games going into that.

[Doug Lamoris]

Season going into the game.

[Bill Landis]

Okay, going into the game, Will Howard last year, 13 big time throws, 11 turnover worthy plays going into the game. In the game. Then Kyle McCord had two big time throws and two turnover worthy plays. Two picks. Will Howard had zero big time throws and three turnover worthy plays, right? So these guys like were kind of 50, 50 on big plays and bad plays going into the Michigan game. And then they made some bad plays in the Michigan game going into this Michigan game. Julian saying 16 big time throws, four turnover worthy plays and in Big 10 play it's 13 big time throws, two turnover worthy plays. He's made two turnover worthy plays. So I think a key to this game for Ohio State is not throwing a pick to Michigan. That gives Michigan the ball inside the 10 yard line in the first quarter and sets up their first touchdown. And I think based on the stats and what our eyeballs have been telling us, I think Julian Singen is less likely to do it than either Will Howard or Kyle McCord. And I would like to do a podcast about how that matters.

[Doug Lamoris]

Okay, sure.

[Bill Landis]

Are you.

[Doug Lamoris]

Will it end with you advocating for Ohio State to just run the ball every play on its opening drive?

[Bill Landis]

No, because this. Because here's my other big stat. And then you tried to say like, well, Doug, what about the nuance of these stats? And then I was like, bill, stats are stats. I looked up a stat and this is the stat. Okay. The last three seasons, the last three seasons, Ohio State has played 43 games. Does that sound right? Right.

[Doug Lamoris]

They played 16, 20, 16.

[Bill Landis]

And 13. So 42. Right. They played 42 games in the three Michigan games. They have thrown two interceptions in every Michigan game the last three years. In the other 39 games, this is the starting quarterback. The starting quarterback has thrown two interceptions once. Kyle McCourt against Wisconsin. So again, the starting quarterback for Ohio State the Last, the previous three seasons, 22, 23, 24. The starting quarterback threw two picks in four games. Three of them were the three Michigan games. Now, the CJ Strad, you said, well, wasn't. Those are like desperate CJ plays at the end. They were, they were. And it was after Jim Knowles as defense sprung a leak and Donovan Edwards was popping through holes like the boy had pulled his finger out of the dyke. But it was still a two score game with like 10 minutes left when CJ's first pick was on like a underhanded flip on third and 10 when he was getting sacked in like the red zone. And there was still like some hope there. And it was a desperate play, but it was also like a. A bad decision by him. Try to eat it and maybe live for fourth down or whatever, but. And then he threw another one late. That was super desperate. That was off Kate Stover's hands down. The scene was actually a pretty good throw and Stover dropped it and popped it in the air. Michigan picked it. But anyway, my point, because we put it in the chat to our substack folks, Bill and Doug. Osu.subsack.com backslash the game special. You get free trial up till the Big Ten championship game.

[Doug Lamoris]

That's right.

[Bill Landis]

People were saying like, well, does that mean like you were. Does that mean just run it and it means no. If they throw it and don't throw picks that set up short fields for Michigan, boy are they going to increase their chances to win. And that seems something Julian saying is very capable of. For all the things that at times he hasn't done, errors of omission, there have been very few errors of commission, like throwing an out that Will Howard did last year into the hands of a Michigan defensive back.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. So refresh my memory because I know I. I watched the 2024 game yesterday. It was funny. Like I put. I fired up the 2024 game to look at like one thing specifically. And then I just watched the whole game, the entire game, which is not the first time that's happened to me. Me. So Will Howard threw that pick out of his own end zone. Kyle McCord's early interception there was more like semi normal field position. It got returned into a short field, right?

[Bill Landis]

Yes.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

Yes.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. Because the field position last year, like that, that was something that I had forgotten is like how bad of a field position situation much of that game was for Ohio State's offense. Much of it their own doing and part of it also being like the defense is really good because I think they might have been, were they not. They were in that position because they made a stand on the goal line, right?

[Bill Landis]

They did make a goal line stand.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[Bill Landis]

So it's like Michigan also punted it down, I think one time at least.

[Doug Lamoris]

But yes, yes, there was a Punta pinned him inside. And there was also, for some reason Travion Henderson let a kickoff bounce and then had the fall on it on the six yard line. So again, mostly Ohio State's doing it their bad field position. But what I'm getting at I guess is like some of it is sort of like circumstantial, I guess. Right. If. If you are Ohio State and you're backed up in this game against Michigan, as much as it might frustrate people, do you not put yourself in the situation to throw the kind of interception that Will Howard threw last year? The McCord thing's different because it was just kind of like an inaccurate throw on a normal play. But the Howard one felt like, I'm in my end zone, I panicking because I got to get rid of the ball. And then he like threw it late and kind of behind and also got baited sort of into the throw by the defensive back.

[Bill Landis]

But also like part of this, and I just want to say it's like you, you have a narrative. You live a narrative. 364 days and you re watch the game. You're like wait, is this narrative wrong? What is going on here? So this idea obviously will Howard did take a very big hit up high on his body and maybe wasn't himself. I will say this though. After he took that hit like on the third drive, there were times in that game when he was making some good throws. He came. It wasn't like he was then at.

[Doug Lamoris]

The end of the first half was great.

[Bill Landis]

So there were times when he looked really good and then his second pick was terrible and it was in the red zone and it so his first pick gave Michigan a touchdown. His second pick took a touchdown off the board for Ohio State and very.

[Doug Lamoris]

Least chance for points.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah and but again, I mean we're doing mailbags on the sub stack site and I gave you. I don't know if you looked. We were dividing up the questions. I gave you questions about could Ohio State have an edge on special teams in this game? Having gone back and watched jaden Fielding go 2 for 5 on makeable field goals in the last two Ohio State Michigan games, my answer is no. Ohio State does not have an edge in special teams. Like good luck to all involved. I am not assuming anything about Ohio State's field goal team in the Michigan game until somebody drills five of them because it is absolute insanity. The momentum swings of the past two years when it's like hey, what's that Michigan guy doing? It's like drilling a 55 yarder. What are we doing? It's like 27. It's not going in. It's like what is happening? How is this a thing?

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[Bill Landis]

It took a field goal opportunity at the very least off the board. It was an awful throw. It was like a bad decision. It was behind. It was right to a db. And it's one of those things like if it's just like, oh man, like Will Howard got racked and like he couldn't even. It's like, well, I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure it was an. It was a great job by him to fight to stay in the game and do all those things. But he had been doing good things, right? It wasn't like getting hit rendered him incapable of making good throws. And he made a bunch of good throws. And then at the worst possible time, he made another terrible throw that took points off the board. And it is a reminder when we talked about this on around the Shoe Bill, which is why I wanted to talk about it for another half an hour. Will Howard, Ohio State legend, Buckeye hero of the playoff run, did not play that way against Michigan and really had not been playing that way consistently for the 11 games going into Michigan. He had done it at times. I mean, we spent all last season talking about like, like the deep ball discussion around Will Howard was like kind of crazy at times, right? The deep doll discussion, like, are they not hitting it? They're not doing enough, whatever. Like the deep ball discussion with Julian saying is like, oh no, he went from 80 to 75 or whatever it is. So like, I just think the level of efficient playmaking but taking care of the ball quarterback play for Ohio State going into this game, I think is substantially above 23 and 24. And it is now at very near the top of my list of the things that I think matter most for Saturday.

[Doug Lamoris]

I think, yeah, I would put it up there as well. And it's actually like a interesting kind of parallel to that, I think, because I, it's. It has been an ongoing conversation with Julian saying this year, like, is he at times a little bit gun shy? There was a play last week against Rutgers where Brandon Ennis was wide open. He didn't throw in the ball. It took a check down. There was a play the week before against UCLA where Max Claire was wide open, didn't throw it, I think took another check down and there have been other times throughout the year where that has happened. I think, I think in the middle of the year you did sort of feel him growing out of that. And then Jeremiah Tate and Carnell Smith or Jeremiah Smith, I've been doing that a lot. Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate were not available. But the Penn State game was not an issue. The Penn State game was, was fireworks. It was like, all right, here we go. And then like personnel wise, it just kind of weren't equipped to do that anymore. But while you can be frustrated at times, and frustrated is probably too strong of a word, might be more just like curious acknowledging that it's a next step for Julian saying to take in his game as a red shirt freshman quarterback. It could also be the thing that gives you a little bit of comfort going into this game.

[Bill Landis]

Right.

[Doug Lamoris]

He's just, he's just not loose with the football. And, and Gary did a good job on around the shoe, like sort of running through the intercept. The types of interceptions that he has thrown this year, none of, there haven't really been many high leverage situations for the offense this year. So none of the, none of the ints have really come. Come in those moments. But he's just not been a guy who's been like rushed into bad throws. And I a part of me just feels like if that were to happen and it probably will happen in this game because Michigan has a good defense who might just throw it away and like live the play for the next play and not. And not put Ohio State's offense in the positions it's been put in the last two years. Report.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, and again like the discussion of that you and I have had that the players and the players meeting with Ryan Day had last year around, like why is Ohio State not taking advantage of its playmakers and, and getting the ball more to receivers in a game like that, right? And why were they running the ball right into Mason Graham? It's also a reminder of, oh, just to double check like you guys, you guys think that Ohio State should throw it more like, like when we were throwing it to the other team. Is that when you think like is that the type of throwing that you think that's not it. It like it hasn't been great. And so now that's another conversation. Kyle McCord 18 of 30 for 271 in 2023. Will Howard last year 19 or 33 for 175. And then it becomes part of the discussion is if Ohio State is this really good throwing team for much of the year why, for instance, haven't they thrown it as well in the last two Michigan games? And then is it something like, well, because Michigan's really good on defense and maybe because it's a little bit colder and may because Ohio State's playing a little bit tight. Right. There are things that is. It's not just like, coincidental that the passing game hasn't been as efficient or effective. But then also, I do think what we have seen from this passing game would lead me to be. Efficient's been the word all year that it, it will be more efficient because it's, it's the absolute calling card of this passing game is the efficiency of it. So if Ohio State doesn't turn it over and they're just a little more bing, bang, boom, and you take a check down when it's not there and you don't put the ball in harm's way. I can't believe the picks. I can't believe then in the Ohio State Michigan game the last two years, the Ohio State quarterback threw it to the other team to set up a touchdown in the first quarter.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. Did you know that? I was just looking this up before we started recording and whatever. It's. Pff. I know it's not everything, but Will Howard's passing grade in that game is the lowest of the Ryan Day era.

[Bill Landis]

Wow. The single lowest passing grade in any Ryan Day games since he took over as a head coach in 2019.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, it's the only. They've had a handful of like. So it's whatever. It's on a scale of what, zero, which I hope no one oversees too like 100. But anything north of like 70 is probably pretty good. Even in the 60s at times, going pretty good. They had a few sub 60 games, including Kyle McCord at Michigan in 2023. But the only one that's sub 50 is Will Howard last year.

[Bill Landis]

Okay, so then, like, do you. Do you believe this passing game? How would you compare the ability of this passing game? And we'll just throw in. I mean, everybody's seen it. Caleb Downs gets to be the best defensive player in the country, and he gets the best podcast guest.

[Doug Lamoris]

He's going to want a Pulitzer.

[Bill Landis]

The Jeremiah Smith is going to be on the Downs Brothers podcast, which I think we'll post on Monday, on Wednesday. Excuse me, but they have a social media clip that's Jeremiah Smith saying, I'm like, I'm. I'm dealing with this injury thing, but I, I should be good to go Saturday. Right. So, which is again, obviously the number one question of the week. Do you believe this passing game? Let's now operate at his word. Operate under the assumption that Jeremiah Smith at the very least will attempt to play. Do you believe it can and will be efficient against this Michigan defense? Like, is that a reasonable assumption to make? And again, perhaps a stronger assumption than we would have made about the Kyle McCord passing game or the Will Howard passing game.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And part of it is less so about like the, the personnel involved, Julian Saying and Jeremiah Smith and more like the mindset of the play callers and the guys who were devising the offensive game plan. Right. Like, I just for the life of me can't fathom another year where they, where they don't build their like, plan around using their best players. Which, which in this game would be Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and like watching Michigan too. Like, I don't, I don't know. They're. I don't find Michigan secondary particularly impressive, especially at the safety position. So like, and, and from like an athletic standpoint as well. So I think that there are just, I think pretty stark advantages there for Ohio State. Now Michigan's done a great job of scheming them up and like doubling Marvin in 2023. I think doing a good job of kind of bracketing at times, like both Jeremiah and the Mecca or Jeremiah and Carnell. Like, like they really were diverting a lot of resources to them because they knew that their front just kind of had stuff handled that didn't need extra help. The dynamics with Michigan's defense are not quite the same, so I think they'll probably try to play it the same way, but I don't know that they're equipped to do it as effectively as they were last year. And I think that Ohio State's passing attack, you know, with the sort of asterisks that their two star receivers have been injured the last two weeks when it's hole is, is better than it was last year coming into this game. So for all those reasons, yeah, I think, I think that they are equipped to be more efficient against Michigan. Yes.

[Bill Landis]

And there's just a couple throws. Again, this just all fresh in my mind. Like the first kind of third and intermediate throw last year for Will Howard, he threw it to a Mecca Buka and like a Mecca Buka just was covered. Like he just came out of his break and it was not there and Will Howard threw it to him anyway and it just had no chance of being completed. There was a third down throw in the 2023 game where Kyle McCord just looked straight at Cade Stover who was double covered at the sticks and just threw it right at him into double coverage and it was not complete and it was like, okay, well I don't know, maybe that was not the throw to make there because it looked like on the top of the screen to the left side of the field there was a guy who was open there like what, what is that decision in the moment? And I don't know if it's. If these quarterbacks getting tight, if it is the, the bad play calling, if it is great coverage by the Michigan defensive backs, but you just, there's just more throws in those games. Ohio State makes. Look throwing the ball, makes throwing the ball look so easy. So much of. And there's just so many throws in 23 and 24 where it doesn't look easy.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

And it's like, why is that? And I just think those quarterbacks did not play their best games and even the last. So the second Kyle McCord pick, as everybody knows is, is what basically ended the game. He's trying to get the ball down the middle to Marvin Harrison Jr. In this one minute drill where they're trying to come back and have a chance to go down in history. And there's some leakage on the, on the protection and he gets hit as he throws and it is to his left. But I even watching this, I'm not trying to make Julian saying out to be some kind of miracle robot AI quarterback that never makes a mistake. But Kyle McCord, like the pressure is coming and Kyle McCord just stands there and tries to make the throw and is hit as he's throwing it and throws the pick. And I just watched that play and I might think to myself, I think Julian Saenz, pocket awareness. I don't think he just stands there. I think he maneuvers a little bit away from it and gives himself a chance to stay alive. Right. I just. The miss. The second Will Howard pick last year, the miss. I don't think Julian sand makes that miss. And so I, it's so stark to me. And then the other thing is like, you know, going back to C.J. stroud and watching C.J. stroud in 22, I didn't watch in 21, but watching, you know, he's just kind of, he's making throws, he's picking guys apart. You know, there's the, the fourth down throw that they thought Cade Stover would be open, that was covered by the linebacker that everybody like kind of Points to as the number one Connor Stallions moment there. But then in re watching that, I don't know if you realize this. Did you know that Ohio State's defense just stopped playing on seven plays in that game. They actually all 11 of them laid down on the field and took a nap. And Michigan scored a touchdown every time they did that. And so it's like C.J. stroud is like, man, okay, this is different than the, the Howard and McCord years. Look at C.J. stroud. Okay, let me fast forward to the next offensive possession because I want to get a handle on how the passing game was working. Why is that Michigan guy running by himself? Oh, who's case chasing him? Why is Cam Martinez chasing him down the field? And then there are guys like on the field, they're also. I'm wound up. There are things you go through and there are times it's the Ohio State, it's a fantastic Ohio State team. There are guys on the field in major moments for Ohio State who I think to myself that guy wouldn't see the field. Now.

[Doug Lamoris]

You didn't, you didn't like the who. The, the play in the 2023 game where like Malik Hartford hadn't played in eight months and then they put him on the field as a dime back and he'd like turned his head and JJ McCarthy threw it right behind him.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, that. The Jim Knowles blitz on the, on the Cam Brown play for the, for the tie the game on the first time, like just time after time. So that was. So it's just like Washington's like, how is this Ohio State? What is this? And I can't, you know, it's not going to be easy. Michigan's a very good football team. But the mistakes Ohio State is making across these last three games, I think in 2021, Aiden Hutchinson's really good. The mistakes they made across the last three games, re watching them, my primary reaction was I can't imagine this team making those mistakes. They might make other mistakes, but throwing the ball to Michigan for no reason and then allowing Michigan guys to just rip off 60 yard plays, those seem to be maybe the two things that this Ohio State team does best, which is not turn the ball over and not give up big plays because they're mature, selfless, also efficient defense. And then it's like, well then what's Michigan gonna do? Why am I so upset? Why?

[Doug Lamoris]

They didn't give up any, any big plays on defense last year.

[Bill Landis]

No. Well, it's 13 to 10. No right.

[Doug Lamoris]

Touchdown came on a on a two yard drive.

[Bill Landis]

Yes. So. So the last two games are they lost because the quarterback threw it to Michigan. And then three years ago when the quarterback was actually playing pretty well, they lost because the defense gave up five 50 yard plays.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

And so I don't think this defense for Ohio State will give up five 50 yard plays and I don't think this quarterback is going to throw it to Michigan. So then if those things are taken away, then that's how Michigan won the last three games. That's why I wanted to do a podcast. The end.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah. Okay, we got there. I would like to. By the way, I can't remember on which show I said it. It was either. I think it was a Sunday sound off show that we did for our Substack subscribers and I said something to the effect of like trying to recollect the 2024 game. And, and I don't didn't recall players being tight. I would like, I would like to amend the record after re watching the 2024 game, not the defense. But there were clearly some guys who were a little, little wound up I think on offense and on special teams in ways that did not contribute to them playing their best.

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[Bill Landis]

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[Doug Lamoris]

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[Doug Lamoris]

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[Bill Landis]

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[Bill Landis]

There's also just some remarkable stuff. I GUESS it was a 23 game. There's like just like in a Mecca Buka drop early in the game that mattered on third down last year there's a Carnell Tate drop on third down. That's just like what is happening there? Do I think now if they're playing their fifth and ninth best receivers, all bets are off. But again, like. And so then. So now we're laying down the. I think the efficiency with which this team has operated on both sides of the ball. If they do make catastrophic mistakes, I think that is almost entirely mental and emotional. Then something is broken with this team because that is not the. The other teams. I think that was more hiding in there. Super blitz, man, play caller, just letting it all hang out and giving up big plays. And then two quarterbacks who just were a little looser during the regular season than Julian saying was. And then, oh, they threw some picks in the Michigan game. Well, that. They kind of had that in them more. Right. So if this happens, I think it would be on both. Both in both those aspects more surprising, more contrary to the heart and soul of what Ohio State is right now. And then it's like, why did you wind up doing something so outside yourselves that all of a sudden now the passing game's throwing it to the other team? Now all of a sudden this defense is giving up gigantic plays. What happened? There must be something in the way that you are approaching your business because of your mindset, because of your. The way you prepared for the game that is not allowing you to play at your best as much as Ohio State. I would say what happened Ohio State the last four years, one of the things that didn't play at their best. But actually what is, I think also true is some of the issues that were bubbling underneath the whole time just cropped up more. But they weren't from out of nowhere.

[Doug Lamoris]

I would say that was even out of nowhere. I would say that was Even true with 21. When you think about the offensive line and like, just the healthier that situation.

[Bill Landis]

Short yardage, the inability to make short yardage. Right. Which is what turned that game.

[Doug Lamoris]

And I don't know, like, what's the. Any consistent, like, lingering thing this year that, like, might get magnified or start. I mean, like the run game generally, I guess. But.

[Bill Landis]

I don't.

[Doug Lamoris]

Like, nothing springs to mind of, like, I've seen this happen a time or two. I wonder if it could be expanded upon. Like, I don't know what that would be.

[Bill Landis]

So we're gonna do a big game breakdown that we'll put up here on YouTube and on the podcast feeds on Wednesday where we. We go through this entire game on both sides of the ball. We will wind up repeating a little bit of what we said today. But I just, I wanted to get this aspect about the quarterback play. Let it get it out There and let it percolate a little bit because four turnover worthy plays and 11 starts for Julian sand and I think it is, it was a reminder of how backbreaking it is in a rivalry like this to turn the ball over and hand a short field to an offense that, you know, Michigan, even in 23, even in the national title year, they needed some help on offense sometimes. Right. So. And, and then the other thing is just like another reminder each of the last three years, right at the point, like in the third quarter where the games in the balance, Michigan had a killer trick play. It really is a reminder each of the three years they killed Ohio State right when it was this could tilt in 23. They threw like a half back pass down to the goal line that Denzel Burke interfered and set him up like first and goal. They had the in 20. No, that was in 22. Was that last year? No, because last year. Now I'm losing track. So that was one. Maybe that was last year. One of them was the handoff to Khalel Mullings where he then stopped and threw it on third and one.

[Doug Lamoris]

That was 21.

[Bill Landis]

And then there was the Donovan Edwards halfback pass that right at a critical juncture. That might have been in 23.

[Doug Lamoris]

That was 23 because he was.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, okay. Okay. So Mulling's trick play, Edwards trick play, the pass down of the goal line, interference trick play. So anyway, it's a reminder. And also like what was it. Was it last year they used Alex Orgy a little bit in the run game like Michigan did. It's like a reminder of what like Lincoln Keen Holtz can be like.

[Doug Lamoris]

So one of their, one of their. This, the first field goal they kicked was set up by Alex Orgy coming in on like 4th and 1. Air3me was 3rd and 1 and Ohio State didn't set the edge. And he ran for like 30 yards.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah, like, what do we think of an Alex Orgy? Lincoln Keenholtz comparison?

[Doug Lamoris]

Orgy had a big run at the start of the second half in 23 too, didn't he?

[Bill Landis]

Yeah.

[Doug Lamoris]

Didn't they like open the second half with him on the first on the drive for a first drive and get a nice run?

[Bill Landis]

Yes. They like ran him back to back plays. He got like 20 yards on one play and two on the next play. Is that like a reasonable comparison in terms of the athleticism of the quarterback and.

[Doug Lamoris]

And yeah, I mean in terms of.

[Bill Landis]

What to do for a brief moment.

[Doug Lamoris]

What their impact on the game could be? Yeah. And also even like the telegraph nature of it. Because everyone knows when he's coming in.

[Bill Landis]

He'S running, who cares? Yeah, but it still worked. Block it up. Right. So. Okay, so we're going to be, are we going to keep doing coverage this week? Yeah. Right. We are.

[Doug Lamoris]

We are.

[Bill Landis]

So.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

So we would invite people to join us on Substack. We would invite you to like subscribe, tell a friend about the Bill and Doug show. We just got to tell you, there are a lot of you joining us on Substack for the first time and thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. We get like, we can see all those numbers of how much we're growing. We continue to be, I think the second fastest rising sports substack in the world with the growth we've had primarily this week because of this game and, and because of this fan base. And so thanks to you guys for doing that, Bill and Doug. Osu.subsack.com backslash thegamespecial sorry, bill, I just had to get this off my chest.

[Doug Lamoris]

I'm glad he did. Yeah, you can't, it's Michigan week. You can't let those things fester. You got to get them out.

[Bill Landis]

Four turnover worthy plays the whole year for Julian saying four. Did you. And the final thing is I just, I want Ohio State fans to have the right assessment of Ohio State quarterback play going into the game and in the game because I think the more the, the way that Will Howard played for the last month, that deserves to be how he is remembered. But it doesn't serve Ohio State fans to think that's what he was doing all the time. Right. And so he rose to something, but he didn't rise to it in the Michigan game. He did. And then he got hurt. But he wasn't rising to that even before he got hurt. He as much as that team transformed. He transformed.

[Doug Lamoris]

He transformed. Yeah.

[Bill Landis]

And, and what an unforgettable thing it is. But it, but like don't trick yourself into thinking that was the quarterback that played quarterback for Ohio State, the Mission game last year, because it wasn't.

[Doug Lamoris]

It was not. Yeah. So can I, I wanna. Because we'll talk more about this. We do a big game breakdown later this week. But just while we're talking quarterbacks, you said Julian Saying's got four turn everywhere worthy plays all year. Bryce Underwood, Michigan's quarterback, has six in the last four games.

[Bill Landis]

Oh, that is a difference. Would you like to play? Which quarterback is more likely to throw a pick that is returned inside the 10 yard line in the first quarter.

[Doug Lamoris]

I feel like I don't want to play that game because I can feel every Ohio State fan who's been listening to this telling us to shut the hell up and stop jinxing Julian saying.

[Bill Landis]

Well, it's one of those things like it is at the, it's, it's losing four in a row. There is a, a reasonable group of, of smart, educated, dedicated Ohio State fans who just want us to shut our yaps in general about everything. They don't want to hear good stuff, they don't want to hear criticism, they don't want to hear injury guesses. Just like, it's too much. But we got to do it for everybody else who still wants it. But there is because like, we're stating facts here. Four turnover worthy plays. That's a pff fact, right? Mm. It's not that we're, we're not just saying vibes. We think Julian saying is less likely to throw a pick, but it doesn't guarantee anything. Right? So it's like, yeah, it's like, oh, thanks to you guys for talking about it now. You made it happen. It's like, well, no, but I think it's good information to take in a Thanksgiving dinner. Okay, we're going to Ryan Day news conference on Tuesday.

[Doug Lamoris]

Yeah, Tuesday at noon. We'll be there.

[Bill Landis]

All right, we'll be there. We'll be back with a whole bunch of videos, a whole bunch of podcasts. Make sure you watch it here on YouTube, make sure you listen here on your favorite podcast feed. And we will have a big Wednesday show for the substack folks as well. And then we'll have a live post game show on Saturday right after the game. Bill will be in Ann Arbor, I'll be in the home office, and we're just going to start jamming pretty quickly on that. So.

[Doug Lamoris]

Because figure out we're going to do it. They got mad at us last time we were in Ann Arbor and did a podcast there.

[Bill Landis]

I did. I, I, I, I do think, yeah, we'll have to figure it out. I think I'll probably start by myself though, because I don't know, like, we've been trying to wait, you know, but either way, I don't think Ohio State fans are going to want to wait. We're going to want to start, open the vein and let people share their opinions one way or the other. So I think we'll get to that and then we'll let Philly Billy come in and drop some football truth on us. So. All right, thanks, Bill, for tolerating me through that.

[Doug Lamoris]

Of course.

[Bill Landis]

Yeah. Thanks to you guys for doing the same. For now, he's Bill Landis on Douglas Maurice, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.

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