The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk

Episode: What can Ohio State QB Julian Sayin do in The Game differently than Will Howard and Kyle McCord?
Date: November 25, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis (Blue Wire)

Overview

In this episode, Doug and Bill dig deep into Ohio State’s last three matchups against Michigan, focusing on the quarterback position and its pivotal role in these rivalry games. They examine how past mistakes from Will Howard and Kyle McCord swung outcomes, and analyze what Julian Sayin brings to the table this year—especially when it comes to avoiding catastrophic turnovers. The discussion is rich in stats, play-by-play recollections, context on big-picture program trends, and plenty of passion for the rivalry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Turning Points in Recent Ohio State-Michigan Games

• Doug and Bill reflect on the bizarre and frustrating losses to Michigan (2022-24), repeatedly emphasizing the “fine margins” in those games.
• They note how turnovers by the quarterback early in the game have directly led to Michigan touchdowns on short fields (“on a platter”), which has dramatically influenced outcomes in favor of Michigan.
  • Quote—Bill Landis [01:54]: "Each of the last two years Ohio State set up Michigan for its first touchdown by throwing an interception that was returned inside the 10 yard line. And that's how Michigan scored its two touchdown, its opening touchdowns each of the last two years."

2. Quarterback Comparison: McCord, Howard, and Sayin

• The hosts cite advanced stats revealing that both Kyle McCord (2023) and Will Howard (2024) had high rates of "big time throws" but also a concerning number of "turnover-worthy plays" heading into the Michigan matchups.
• In a stark contrast, Julian Sayin’s 2025 performance is characterized by efficiency and ball security.
  • Stat breakdown:
    • McCord (2023, pre-Michigan): 16 big time throws, 13 turnover-worthy plays (11 games)
    • Howard (2024, pre-Michigan): 13 big time throws, 11 turnover-worthy plays
    • Sayin (2025, pre-Michigan): 16 big time throws, only 4 turnover-worthy plays; in Big Ten play, 13 big time throws, 2 turnover-worthy plays
  • Bill Landis [05:55]: "I think a key to this game for Ohio State is not throwing a pick to Michigan that gives Michigan the ball inside the 10 yard line in the first quarter and sets up their first touchdown. And I think based on the stats and what our eyeballs have been telling us, I think Julian Sayin is less likely to do it than either Will Howard or Kyle McCord."

3. Why the Past Quarterbacks Struggled in 'The Game'

• Bill offers a macro stat on forced errors:
  • In the last 3 years, Ohio State’s starting QB threw 2 interceptions in each Michigan game.
  • Across 39 other games in those seasons, only once did the starter throw 2 INTs.
  • Bill [06:30]: "The starting quarterback for Ohio State the Last, the previous three seasons, 22, 23, 24. The starting quarterback threw two picks in four games. Three of them were the three Michigan games."
• Doug and Bill discuss how these were not just “desperation” late picks—early mistakes handed easy points to Michigan; later, higher-risk throws as the game slipped away compounded the issues.

4. Julian Sayin’s Strengths and Mentality

• Julian Sayin is praised for making few errors of commission, even if sometimes he's too conservative or "gun shy" on open deep shots.
  • Doug Lamoris [15:09]: "It has been an ongoing conversation with Julian Sayin this year, like, is he at times a little bit gun shy?...But while you can be frustrated at times...it could also be the thing that gives you a little bit of comfort going into this game."
• Sayin’s command of the offense and propensity to “live to play another play” by checking down, rather than forcing a throw, are seen as positives (especially after watching Howard and McCord force throws in past years).

5. Efficiency and Playcalling

• The hosts discuss key moments where previous QBs forced throws to covered receivers on critical downs.
• There is optimism that Sayin, with better pocket presence and a preference for safer options, is less likely to repeat those mistakes.
  • Bill Landis [23:24]: "Ohio State makes throwing the ball look so easy...and there’s just so many throws in 23 and 24 where it doesn't look easy. And I just think those quarterbacks did not play their best games."
• Playcalling and mindset also come under the microscope, with more faith placed in this year’s play design and talent utilization.

6. Supporting Cast and Defensive Improvements

• With Jeremiah Smith’s status (likely to play) and a more dynamic receiving corps, plus a more athletic, efficient defense, Ohio State’s matchup this year is considered more favorable.
• Michigan’s secondary is assessed as "not particularly impressive," giving further confidence.
  • Doug Lamoris [20:39]: "I just for the life of me can't fathom another year where they, where they don't build their like, plan around using their best players. Which, which in this game would be Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate..."

7. What Must Change for Ohio State to Win

• The mistake patterns from the past (backbreaking turnovers, special teams gaffes, defensive breakdowns) are not characteristic of the current team.
• The consensus: if Ohio State avoids handing Michigan easy points through quarterback turnovers and doesn’t give up explosive plays on defense, the Buckeyes should have a strong chance.
  • Doug Lamoris [27:32]: "...I don't think this defense for Ohio State will give up five 50 yard plays and I don't think this quarterback is going to throw it to Michigan. So then if those things are taken away, then that's how Michigan won the last three games. That’s why I wanted to do a podcast."

8. Mental and Emotional Factors

• The hosts warn that “catastrophic” mistakes would be almost entirely mental/emotional given the team’s makeup—if it happens, it would be contrary to this group’s identity.
  • Bill Landis [30:29]: "If they do make catastrophic mistakes, I think that is almost entirely mental and emotional. Then something is broken with this team because that is not the [case]..."

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Bill Landis [01:54]:
  "Each of the last two years Ohio State set up Michigan for its first touchdown by throwing an interception that was returned inside the 10 yard line..."

• Bill Landis [05:55]:
  "I think a key to this game for Ohio State is not throwing a pick to Michigan that gives Michigan the ball inside the 10 yard line in the first quarter and sets up their first touchdown. And I think...Julian Sayin is less likely to do it than either Will Howard or Kyle McCord."

• Doug Lamoris [15:09]:
  "It has been an ongoing conversation with Julian Sayin this year, like, is he at times a little bit gun shy?...But while you can be frustrated at times...it could also be the thing that gives you a little bit of comfort going into this game."

• Doug Lamoris [20:39]:
  "I just for the life of me can't fathom another year where they, where they don't build their like, plan around using their best players. Which, which in this game would be Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate..."

• Bill Landis [23:24]:
  "Ohio State makes throwing the ball look so easy...and there’s just so many throws in 23 and 24 where it doesn't look easy. And I just think those quarterbacks did not play their best games."

• Doug Lamoris [27:32]:
  "...I don't think this defense for Ohio State will give up five 50 yard plays and I don't think this quarterback is going to throw it to Michigan. So then if those things are taken away, then that's how Michigan won the last three games. That’s why I wanted to do a podcast."

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:56-05:55] – Doug and Bill break down how turnovers have cost the Buckeyes in recent editions of ‘The Game’ and introduce the big stat discrepancy with Julian Sayin’s efficiency.
• [06:01-11:59] – Deep dive on why past QBs (Howard, McCord) struggled, and how turnovers have swung games. Discussion on how Sayin changes the equation.
• [13:26-16:55] – Analysis of Will Howard’s up-and-down Michigan performance, and why efficiency—and not just explosiveness—matters in 'The Game.'
• [19:36-22:17] – Discussion on playcallers’ role, Michigan’s secondary, and how having healthy receivers (like Jeremiah Smith) could change the script.
• [23:24-27:32] – Concrete examples of past bad throws/decisions, reflection on improved pocket presence and anticipation with Sayin.
• [30:00-33:32] – The mental/emotional challenge of rivalry games and how this year’s team is built differently.
• [36:52-37:09] – Bill points out that Michigan QB Bryce Underwood has more recent turnover-worthy plays than Sayin; raises the stakes for 'The Game.'
• [38:22-39:24] – Closing thoughts, upcoming coverage for fans.

Summary Table: QB Metrics Heading into 'The Game'

| Year | Quarterback | Big Time Throws | Turnover Worthy Plays | INTs in 'The Game' | |------|--------------|-----------------|----------------------|--------------------| | 2023 | Kyle McCord | 16 | 13 | 2 | | 2024 | Will Howard | 13 | 11 | 2 | | 2025 | Julian Sayin | 16 | 4 (2 in Big Ten) | TBD |

Final Takeaways

• The podcast paints Julian Sayin as a different, steadier hand at quarterback—his ability to avoid costly turnovers (in contrast to his predecessors) could be the decisive factor in this year’s Ohio State-Michigan matchup.
• The 2025 Buckeyes are not plagued by the same issues that doomed prior teams: Their quarterback is cautious but efficient, the star receivers are (hopefully) healthy, playcalling seems more attuned to the team’s strengths, and the defense rarely yields explosive plays.
• If the Buckeyes avoid the kind of self-inflicted wounds (early INTs, blown coverages, special teams gaffes) that have repeatedly handed Michigan pivotal points, Doug and Bill are optimistic about Ohio State’s chances in the rivalry.

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