← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Which Ohio State football player will be the most difficult to replace this season?
01:25:22
Ohio State had 11 players taken in the 2026 NFL Draft. On this episode of The Bill and Doug Show, Bill Landis and Doug Lesmerises run through those players and their expected replacements for this season and decide which Buckeye will be the most difficult to replace.
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- [00:02]
A
And, Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show. Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, get a quote@libertymutual.com or with your local agent. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. For 45 years, Dish has been connecting America with the best in family, tv, entertainment, and advanced technology at an unbeatable value. And that commitment continues with our new 45th anniversary special offer. Get the lowest price in satellite TV starting as low as $89.99 a month. In a world of rising costs and hidden fees, Dish stays transparent, reliable, and honest, just like our founders intended. Learn more by calling 888-add-D dish or visit dish.com terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. I'm Doug Lee. Maurice. He's Bill Landis. We are talking about replacing the drafted Buckeyes. Bill Landis. We just got off a weekend of some stories and some podcasts about draft coverage, and now we're going to use those guys who were drafted to talk about the 2026 team. And there's a part of me that, as we talk about this, like, oh, Sunny Styles is leaving, and here comes Peyton Pierce. It's like, well, this is how college football works. This is the definition of the sport. Ohio State loses great players every year and is always good. And so it's like, is there even a reason to do this? Why are we doing this? Like, this is self evident.
- [01:49]
B
I don't know. I think it's a little different with the, with the portal now coming into play and the portal probably coming into play as much as it has ever for Ohio State. Right. So it's a worthwhile exercise. I do think it's, it's one of those things, like, let's have a conversation, it could be fun. And then, like, 10 minutes into, like, this conversation is not fun because these guys are really hard to play, hard to replace. And I don't know, I'm interested to see where we go here, because I was going through my list, and I, I, I don't know, I feel like I ended up less confident than I would have anticipated going into it.
- [02:21]
A
So I do think, and this might be a long one, and as I was saying, like, I'm kind of in the, in the mood to drop a long one out here on the, on the YouTube feed and the podcast feed for the folks. I did a very quick and dirty version of thinking about the 2024 draftees off that national title team and then what we would have said, how Ohio State did in replacing them. So I wouldn't mind running through that exercise at the end of this show.
- [02:49]
B
Yeah.
- [02:50]
A
Because like, there's a ver. When I did my quick and dirty version of that, there's, it's like, man, they got worse at that and they got worse at that and they got worse than that and they were still 120 in the regular season. Right. That there is, there is this odd thing of I, I, I think as we go through this, there's just multiple conversations with Ohio State football right now that stop. Start off as, hey, this could be fun and wind up as absolute torture for the fans, for the viewers, for the listeners and for us. But that doesn't mean we're going to start talking about stuff.
- [03:25]
B
Yeah. You want to pivot to a 2027 Julian saying mock draft conversation.
- [03:30]
A
Or I mean it's just like, yeah, like people get, like the mock drafts are out. We talked about that in around the Shoe. More came out on Tuesday. And like there's already like a little percolating thing over on our substack chat of like, how dare people say this? Or like, do you think this or do you think that? It's like, like I, I do think, for instance, like all these exercises, it's just you're slicing it thin. You're creating different avenues through which to discuss how good is Ohio State going to be in 2026. Right. And we could do one show that's like, ah, do you think Ohio State will be pretty good? And we'll be like, we think they'll be pretty good. See it Big Ten media days. Right. But, but I also think, like, it, it's all about how the pieces fit together. And I do think it's, it's, it's, I think, important even if it's not fun to try to be honest with our viewpoints and be honest with Ohio State fans about like, listen, like, this isn't a guarantee. It certainly could work out. But like, let's raise and it's not even red flags, but like, let's have realistic conversations of maybe not everybody is going to be an all American at every position and that's okay.
- [04:46]
B
Yeah. It was interesting to me, for instance, just looking at Dane Brugler's mock Draft at the Athletic. Who you had on the show last week, one Ohio State player, but then 12 players that Ohio State will face this year, which was like, like obviously there, there's more than likely to be an imbalance between those two things. But I don't recall seeing one sort of that stark before. I think it was something like five Oregon players, four Texas players, two from Indiana and one from usc and then Jeremiah Smith for Ohio State. So it's just like, it's just another whatever. It's a piece of information in the off season. Because I think, I think 2027 mock drafts are not about like who was right a year early. It's more about like who's good in college football this year. Right. So to see that was, was, was interesting. But also I think we are perhaps moving into an era where you don't need to have seven first round picks like on your roster to win a national title either. So that'll be interesting to monitor. And it's not like Ohio State's, you know, untalented. They have. Ohio State has plenty of talent. They just don't have plenty of talent that is ready to be a first round pick in 2027 necessarily.
- [05:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. So all of this is perception of talent, which is a valuable conversation. And so that's where we're going to start. We asked our Substack subscribers to contribute to this. We have a poll that we will reference. We said, who do you think will be the most difficult to replace? And the options I gave them were the four first round picks. Carnell Tate, Arvell Reese, Sonny Stiles, Caleb Downs and then on Substack he could only do five options. So I love the fifth together. That's Kaden McDonald and Kaden Curry and Davison Ignosin and the tight ends and everybody else. We'll talk about where people voted there. You and I are going to do like a 1 to 10, but potential over 10 scale of what we expect the replacement to be. So we're going to say all the guys who were drafted, if they're at 10, what they were this year was a 10. What do we think the replacement looks like? Does the replacement going to be like a 6? Is it going to be a 2? Is it going to be a 9? Is it going to be a 12? Like we think they'll get better at that position and that's how we're going to go through this. I did find. Did you look at the poll results? No, I find. I found the poll results very interesting and we have some good comments from some of our Substack subscribers about why they voted for certain guys. If you want to join us over there, Bill and Doug osu.substack.com we're going to be doing a lot of stuff during the off season. We're going to keep doing these free shows here. If this is enough for you, great. We're so glad that you're here. If you want a little more, there's written pieces over there. There's a Wednesday and Sunday show over there. We're going to do some special summer projects over there. And by the way, you just put up something as we record this on Tuesday. You just put it up on Tuesday afternoon and what was it?
- [07:34]
B
Yeah, I like to I started doing it at the Athletic, maybe with the 2017 recruiting class. I can't remember exactly when I started it, but I like to re rank the recruiting classes four years later, you know, taking into account that that year's NFL draft. So the draft just happened. So I did that exercise this year. I didn't do it last year for reasons, but I've done it every other year besides that one. And this one was probably the worst one I've done ever. The 2022 recruiting class was just not a good recruiting class for Ohio State. So a couple really good players in there, but boy did they miss a lot. And not only was it like more than half the Clash transfer, but then like the guys transferred and like did nothing. Like, not like, well, like Hiro. Kanu I think is probably the guy who stands the best chance to do something since leaving Ohio State. He'll, he'll. Unless C.J. hicks like explodes this year and does something crazy in South Florida. Hirokano, probably the only guy from that group ends up getting drafted of the guys who left the program. So so far two have been drafted. So Sonny Styles, Kaden Curry, a couple others who are currently on the team still Carson Hinsman, Kenyatta Jackson, obviously very strong chance those guys both get drafted and then like maybe hero KANU out of a class of 21 players. And the thing that I thought was most interesting, which I sent you a message about it, was that there are 21 guys in that class. Those 21 guys. What's the right way to say it? I guess it was easier to say this way. There have been 23 college football programs that have rostered a member of of Ohio State's 2022 recruiting class, which I thought was like an absurdly high number. I asked you what you thought it was and you said maybe 11. It's like, no, it's double that. And the only reason it's only 23 is because Cal and Kansas State have each taken two. So there's. There's two extra spots there that could have gone to other programs. So just not a. Not as a player by player. Look at the 2022 class that just did. To not pan out the way that Ohio State wanted it to.
- [09:37]
A
And that's one of those. If. If you're an Ohio State fan, do you hear that and think, like, oh, God, like, there's no. There was, like, nobody that hit in that class. Like, if a guy transfers, do you want the guy who leaves to be great? Or are you kind of like, oh, yeah, no, we misidentified and failed to develop, and then he turned into nothing, but at least we didn't miss out on anything. Or is it. Is there some kind of pride? Is there confirmation? And, like, it didn't work out here. He got squeezed. He got. He got a little eager, right? Like, oh, like, there was something that happened. But, man, this was a good player. Like, the identification of that. Like, what would you rather have as an Ohio State fan? And perhaps this is another show. Like, do you want. Because there's the, like, hey, that guy was a Buckeye. I like him. There's, like, the personal part of it, but then there's, like, the program part of it. Do. Do you. Would you rather miss out on a guy for confirmation that your people are doing it right? Or is it like, oh, we didn't miss. We didn't miss anything with those guys who left. And it's. Man, they whiffed that year.
- [10:46]
B
I don't know what you'd rather have
- [10:50]
A
prob.
- [10:51]
B
Probably just outright whiffs, I guess, right? Because you'd hate to see a guy that, like, you didn't quite use the right way then go somewhere and be really good elsewhere. And that. That clearly hasn't happened with this class. In fact, it rarely happens to Ohio State in any class. So I guess that's where you'd rather be. I. I have a. A theory, too. Like, I. I used to believe that the 2021 recruiting class would have been the one that was sort of, like, misidentified the most because of COVID And I'm wondering if it was maybe the 2022 class instead. The class, obviously the class right. Right behind that one. And I. I started going through, like, the entire 2022 class to see how many draft picks were as I was, like, working on the story. It's like, if I keep doing this, I'm never going to get the story done. So I didn't. I didn't follow through with it. But it makes me wonder like, like, what the. If you took whatever the top 100 or 150 players or so from the 2022 recruiting class nationally, how many of those guys, like, actually ended up being draft picks were what people thought they would be? Because by. At least for Ohio State, it did not work out well at all. And in fact, like, the. The guy in the 2022 class for Ohio State who was the biggest hit was Sunny Styles, who wasn't supposed to be in that class until he reclassified. So, yeah, just a wonky, wonky class. But that was. It was okay, I think, because the 2021 class was so good. And then those guys stuck around. Also part of the reason why the 2022 class didn't work out the way they wanted it to. But it is weird to see their. They're. I was shocked how many guys are still in college from that class. It's like 16 of the 21, I think, are still in college. And Ohio State never signs a class thinking that 75% of them are still going to be in college five years later.
- [12:30]
A
But these guys, they're hanging on for whatever nil money they can get. They're still trying to find a home because obviously there's guys in there, obviously, who were multiple transfers, right? So went to more than one school. Okay, I could ask you 17 more questions about that, but that's not what the show is. Let's start with this replacement discussion. This idea. It's not just. And this is why I do think it's worth doing. It's not just how good is the player. It's like we. We have opinions about how good Carnell Tate and Kaden McDonald, those guys are. We've expressed those. But it's how good the player is, how prepared and good you think the backup is, and the combination of those two things, the ability to replace. So you might have an All American player, but you're like, but the next guy is all also going to be an All American. Or you might have a good solid player. And then it's like, I have no idea what they're gonna do. Right. So it's. It's trying to combine those two things. We'll give it a 1 to 10 and possibly above 10 rating scale. Carnell Tate, we'll start with him and we'll go in the draft order. And again, we'll work in what some of our subscribers shared and we love the subscribers over there. They're like, I'm glad when we can sort of use their opinions on some of this stuff. I will say our guy Tony said, can I vote all of the above to the choices? Because when I put this on the sub stack, I put the player and then I put the expected replacement and then I sort of put like stats for the outgoing player stat so far for the career of the guy who's expected to be the replacement. PFF grades, that kind of thing. So you go through it and he said, reading through this list, I don't think I feel great about anyone except Devin Sanchez as the replacement for Davis and Igbosan. And you're giving a tiny little nod there. Tiny little nod there. This, this is going to be the comparison and we, we will discuss this the entire year. The comparison between the 2025 team and the 2026 team of raw talent versus more veteran players and maybe better coaching and maybe more veteran players at more important spots versus, like the outright unreal skill and talent of several guys is a fascinating comparison between what was a very, very good Ohio state team in 2025 that didn't get to the finish line and what might happen in 2026. And like, this is the start of that conversation and the end of that conversation is they were less talented, but they were better. Like, that's the, that's like the potential end game here that we're, there's no sense dancing around this. That's what we could be looking at here.
- [15:11]
B
I. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because I'd been, I've been thinking about that. I was having a conversation with friend of the program, Ari was yesterday on, on Monday about Ohio State quarterbacks. Yeah, sorry, we were texting right here. We were texting and actually it started that my, that my. The, the, the start of the conversation was me wondering why Steve Sarkeesian doesn't have more heat on him. So you would have really enjoyed it. But somehow we ended up getting to Ohio State quarterbacks and the fact that Ohio State has had this like recent run of first round quarterbacks, but then like the quarterbacks they've actually won national titles with were like a six round pick, a fourth round pick and Craig Krenzel. And I feel like maybe that logic is being applied like on a macro scale to this Ohio State roster where it's like, yeah, they're, they're elite, they're often elite and come up short but what if they're just, like, pretty good, but. But like, right place, right time, right coaching and that. Yeah, it's like the recipe for actually winning
- [16:09]
A
big. Thanks to our sponsor, BetterHelp, for partnering
- [16:12]
B
with us for this important conversation about mental health. This Steve Smith here, former NFL wide receiver and host of the 89 show on YouTube. So having a counselor and working with BetterHelp, that gives you an opportunity to really start to unpack. But people don't understand when you unpack things, you also open up a box that you're not always sure what's inside. So I think that's why seeing a professional is extremely important. If you need someone to open up to, visit betterhelp. That's better. H lp.com89 to get started
- [16:47]
A
and Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show. Hey, everyone, check out this guy. The in is bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, get a quote@liberty mutual.com or with your local agent. Liberty, Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. And it's. And it's interesting. I mean, like, the 2024 team that won the national championship was all of it. Because it was. It was an incredibly veteran team that was also incredibly talented. So then 2025 had similar talent, not similar experience. 2026 has similar experience, probably not similar talent. And then it's like, what would you rather have?
- [17:44]
B
And.
- [17:44]
A
And again, the microcosm that Ohio State is such an interesting lens through which to view this entire sport. I think we might get in. I can already I can see the Think piece headlines and hear the podcast discussions in my head. None of them will be as good as what you're getting here from us and on the Bill and Doug Substack. But, like, would you rather be supremely talented or would you rather be supremely veteran in this era? And like Ryan Day has said, I he felt last year they were a little too young. It's why they brought in Terry Moore and Christian Allegro and James Smith and Quay Russo and all these guys, right? Like, he wanted to get older, but they didn't break the bank necessarily for sure thing, all Americans. So anyway, let's do the thing.
- [18:32]
B
God, yeah. 40 minutes in. Let's start the podcast.
- [18:36]
A
But I will say, and we're going to do. We'll do our Wednesday show for Substack subscribers. I really, I am irritated with podcasting right now. I am trapped in a, in a, in a hellhole of having a hard time finding topics that I like and hosts that I like and the bad podcasting that takes place out there of people like preambling for 20 minutes but like about personal crap that nobody cares about. We preambled about interesting Ohio State stuff that's not directly related to the topic. But I don't know if there's any Ohio State fans being like, my God, would you guys shut up about Ohio State and talk about Ohio State. People don't know how to podcast. Landis, you agree with that, right? You've. How many.
- [19:14]
B
Yeah. Have you listened to too many there? Yeah, there, there's a lot that I've actually stopped listening to because there's just a little, little too much grab ass as they say.
- [19:24]
A
Carnell Tate being replaced by some combination of transfers Devin McEwen and Kyle Parker, of true freshman Chris Henry Jr. And Brock Boyd. Connor on the sub stack said, I voted Carnell. I think next year people are going to be very disappointed in the progression of the passing game. Beyond Jeremiah Smith. I won't be surprised if there's legitimate questions about Julian Sands ability to be productive with teammates who aren't first round talents. I would love to be wrong, but we all saw the flashing warning lights from last year's games without Jeremiah and Carnell. So that's, that's the, that was the one person who expressed like why they voted for Carnell Tate. As you think about the replace, what's your number first? 0 to 10. But also you can go above like your expected replacement level. CARNELL Tate in 2025 was a 10. What will the replacements be?
- [20:18]
B
All right, so I'm just going to put out the. My, my true number. But I'm, I'm trying to get a gauge here too because I don't, I don't know exactly like for the, for this exercise, what's like, oh my goodness, that's an alarming number. So my number is five.
- [20:30]
A
Okay. I, I will say I wound up with a lot of numbers like above 5. I wound up with a lot of numbers in the same range. I don't have a ton of twos because like a two to me is like I have no freaking idea what they're going to do. I think they're going to suck at that position. Right?
- [20:45]
B
I don't have any, I don't have any twos. I do have a three, but I don't have any twos.
- [20:50]
A
So it's like, it's. I mean, it's up to interpretation. I think we'll combine the numbers and then, like, try to figure out what our final rating is. So you're a five here. You said okay? Yeah, I gave myself. Because some of most of my rankings, I just, like, I kept saying the same thing. So I did allow myself a 6.5 here. So I did a 0.5. I apologize for it. The thing that I think is difficult about this is not knowing who it's going to be, who's going to have the majority of the snaps. And again, like, this, to me, is less about replacing the Z receiver and more about replacing the second most dangerous receiving threat on the field. If you want to have a Brandon Innis conversation as part of this, I think you could justify that. If you're like, listen, he's still going to play in the slot, but Brandon Innis is going to be their second best receiver and he is going to elevate his game, be more explosive, be more involved, be a favorite Julian, say in Target. And that's why you won't miss Carnell Tate that much. I think that would be fine.
- [21:54]
B
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
- [21:57]
A
I don't know that I took that into much consideration when I made my thing. That's not what I thought first. My expectation is not like, boom. Brandon Inis, second leading receiver, plays like a high draft pick. He's Jeremiah's sidekick. They're rolling. That's not what I'm thinking now.
- [22:16]
B
That's not what I'm thinking either. My biggest question here, too, is, is this like, the. The physicality that Carnell played with, like, his contested catchability was bonkers. And part of that is a sigh. It's his size, it's his catch radius, it's his hands. And I don't know if I look at the room beyond Jeremiah Smith and feel super confident that there's someone who has all of that. I think Chris Henry Jr. Has some of it, but not all of it. And then I don't know, beyond him, if there's anybody to ask, like, kind of any of it, because there's not anybody else in the room who's like that big, who could. Who could play. I guess you're quoting Guilford to be the next guy. Yeah.
- [23:00]
A
So, because. Because the thing that you wonder about and we just don't have a great. We saw Devin McEwen and Kyle Parker this spring. Devin McEwen the transfer from Texas, San Antonio, Kyle Parker, the transfer from lsu. I don't know that I have a much, like a great handle on exactly what they're gonna be yet in the Ohio State offense. Do you?
- [23:21]
B
No. And. But. Well, I think, actually, yeah, I think I do maybe have a. Somewhat of a handle on what those guys could be. Slash will be in the offense, but it's also just, like, very different from what Carnell Tate was. So I. That's. That's part of the five for me, too. It's like, I don't. I don't actually know that they can give you like, a. Even, like a reasonable facsimile of what Carnell Tate was. I think they can be productive at the other receiver positions, but I just don't think it'll look the same.
- [23:51]
A
And there's the difference between, like, productive and scary. Like, hey, if we throw you the ball because Jeremiah Smith's triple team, like, will you catch it and do something with it? There's that and then there's the. If you double or triple Jeremiah, we got. Somebody's gonna burn you. And I. And I think it's very possible that they will have productive players. I don't know if they'll have a dangerous player. And we've kind of talked about that. The. The overload the defense to Jeremiah Smith at your own risk, because this guy's going to make you pay. The m. We think we've used that phrase, the make you pay receiver, I'm not sure about. And if we had to pick one, I would put Chris Henry Jr. Up first. But he's a true freshman. That's a lot to ask.
- [24:34]
B
Yeah. I think you'd have to put him first. I do think. I think McEwen and Parker probably have, like, make you pay kind of speed, and I know that Brandon Innis is. Is, like, working hard to add that to his game and be more explosive. And in that way, too, I like. It's just like the Down. The down the field part of it. I really. I really don't know. I don't. And I, like, Chris Henry Jr. Is the obvious candidate, but, like, I don't know, is Chris Henry Jr. Ready to go make the catch over two Wisconsin defenders in the back of the end zone? I would. I would think probably not right now. Right. And if it's not him, then I don't know who else in the room could even be, like, physically expected to make a play like that. Right. So that. That's where the hesitation comes in for me again. It's not like I'm not worried that the passing game is going to be like dysfunctional to the point of the comment you, you read earlier. I just think it's going to have to function a little differently, which is like a lot of quick stuff and which is why I think there's been such an emphasis on yards after the catch in this off season. Because I just think sort of stylistically that's what makes sense for the group of receivers.
- [25:43]
A
They have Carnell Tate last year because he missed a couple games. He averaged 4.6 catches and 80 receiving yards per game. Devin McEwen at UTSA, 5.4 catches, 61 yards per game. Kyle Parker, 3.1 catches, 33 yards per game at LSU and then two true freshmen.
- [26:03]
B
So
- [26:05]
A
a 6.5. My 6.5 might be generous, 6.5 might be generous, but that's, that's where I landed. You're a five. Let's go to Arvell Reese, Justin said. I think from a pass rushing perspective, it's Arvel because no one in that room is quite as dynamic as he was on the edge. But then he had a different vote from like the overall player to player thing. What is your I guess I put in here and this again it feels a little amorphous. Like I'm not exactly sure I say Christian Allegro and Riley Pettigohn, like in some combination that if this is there is the who's the second linebacker next to the middle linebacker that's part of this. That Riley Pettigohn who did not take part in full practice in spring, certainly could be that that guy. And then there's the linebacker who can go up on the edge and be menacing as both a pass rusher and a pass rush threat, which are different things. But like even like if the defense has to anticipate you, maybe Allegro has a chance to be a little more of that. But Allegro also like is standing next to Peyton Pierce all of spring. Like being the second linebacker when you, before you give your number. When you think about how they replace Arvel Reese, are those the two players you think about or are there other ways to do this?
- [27:24]
B
I. I would probably include T.J. alford too.
- [27:27]
A
Okay.
- [27:29]
B
I don't, I don't really know what that's going to look like and it's just hard to get a handle on because Riley Pettigon wasn't out there in the spring. But like the and neither Riley Pett John nor TJ Alford are just like the big 250 pound kind of guy that you're gonna want set in the edge on the line of scrimmage the way that Arvel did. But I think they can provide pass rush in different ways. So it's like they, the impact maybe could be similar but the way they go about it is, is, is different. And Allegro is sort of like a, like a poor man's version of Arvell. I think with like just if you just like do a size comparison and factor in some of the, the run game impact there on the edge.
- [28:14]
A
I am very curious for. Oh wait, they unleashed Riley Pettigon. That is actually a decent is better than I thought it would be and that did hold me like leaving room for oh Riley Pettigo is ready to pop in year two. This is a five star guy. Like I had to take that into consideration at least a little bit. And even if it's not like direct like sort of what Arvel did, it's the idea of being a starting linebacker who's dangerous, who is a threat, who an offense has to look out for, who is making plays. I don't want to forget about Riley Pettigohn and if I didn't have possibility of Riley Pettigon in the back of my head I might have gone even lower here. But I did want to account for that.
- [29:05]
B
I would. Yeah I, I, you do tend to forget. I sort of like forgot about him too when I like a first blush and I was like oh no, maybe it's be okay. And I think like I'm just looking at the roster. Riley's listed at 62231 so like he's on, he's not small, he's just the, the Sonny Styles and Arvel Reese like really throw throw off the comparison size wise because they had 265-250-pound freaks out there last year and TJ Alford is 61233 but they're both like like longer levered guys. It's just like I think either one of them would be fine like lining up against an offensive tackle and in fact like might have, I don't know what the right way to say it like a little more like pass rush wiggle to them maybe than Arvel did. If Arvel is more about like speed and power, those guys have speed maybe a little less power but perhaps like a like a smidge more agility. I don't know. Arvell was a freak so I, he's not someone that gets replaced by one person which I think makes this conversation a little difficult. But I think between the three of those guys, they can replace some of the pieces of what Arvel gave to
- [30:16]
A
you, but can they? Coffee House Blitz? We don't know.
- [30:21]
B
We don't know. Yeah, and I wonder too, like, if. If Riley Pettigohn is a guy who's able to be like a fairly high level pass rusher, is that off the edge like Arvel, or is that more like a, a blitzer? I'm not, I'm not sure because, like, when they, when they put him in that role against Purdue, it felt like he was more kind of like in the, in the middle and rushing through there than he was just sort of like lining up as like a, whatever wide nine and trying to rush that way. So I don't know. It's hard. Like, I get it. It's hard to say because we didn't get to see the spring and really we didn't to get to talk to Riley either. So I don't know exactly. I. It's sort of like, you know, that he fits in, but you don't know how that he fits in yet. And that like.
- [31:06]
A
Right.
- [31:06]
B
It's really difficult.
- [31:08]
A
Can these two things both be true? The linebacker room is in good shape and between Peyton Pierce, Riley PettJohn, Christian Allegro, TJ Alford, Garrett Stover, Sincere Johnson, as. Johnson as a true freshman, like, they'll be fine. The linebacker room's good. We don't want to, we are not worried about the linebacker room, but also replacing Arvell Reese will be very difficult. Can both those be true?
- [31:37]
B
Yeah, I think so.
- [31:39]
A
Okay. I'm a five because I think they can both be true. What's your number?
- [31:45]
B
Yeah, I'm also a five.
- [31:46]
A
Okay.
- [31:47]
B
I'm. Yeah, I'm like five with like an open mind to something higher. But I just don't, I don't know that you can go much higher without having seen more of Pett John.
- [31:57]
A
And, and honestly, like, I might have been at like a 3.5 if, if that Pentagon stuff wasn't lurking because it is the. And this is also difficult because, you know, the, the drum that I banged so hard that I broke, it was like they didn't pass. Use. Use our Valeries as a pass rusher enough late in the season. And if they would have done that, they, if they had used him more like that late in the year as they did early in the year, it might, they might have won the national championship. But there's still, like, I acknowledge all the things Arvel did and that he was, he was Just dangerous on every play and every single snap. Is he over your tackle? Is he spying? Is he, is he going to stay in the middle of the field? Is he going to be in coverage like he was a threat. He was a threat every play. And it's. And that threat, I think, changed just the entire defense. And the idea of what Matt Patricia might have him do and what Sonny Stiles and Arvell Reese, in conjunction with each other might, might decide to do on a play is just the kind of thing, it's the gravity. It's, it's the kind of thing that, that Tedgen Jr. Had, that Jeremiah Smith had, that just like being on the field changes the game. Even if what they kind of have you do on that play is stand in the middle of the field and do nothing and that you're not involved in the play, which, again, I think happened too much. But, but you're like, what? Well, what if this is the play? They do it? And I think that no offense to the guys involved might be almost impossible to replace.
- [33:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, it certainly feels that way now, but I mean, it's not like, like Pettigan and Alfred is sort of just like athletic prospects aren't slouches. Right. I, I Right. I think it's within the realm of possibility that both those guys get on the field in the fall and it's just like, nope, those are, they're, they are the menacing linebackers. It's okay, but they're young, they haven't played a ton, and we're talking about a guy who was the fifth pick in the draft. Finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can post your job to some job board, but then all you can do is hope the right person comes along. Which is why you should try ZipRecruiter
- [34:10]
A
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- [34:12]
B
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- [34:58]
A
It's hard. This is a hard exercise.
- [35:01]
B
Yeah.
- [35:02]
A
Stunning. Styles didn't really have anybody share a lot of stuff about Sonny. This is Peyton Pierce. This is the most direct so far of like Sonny Styles was the middle linebacker. Peyton Pierce is going to be the middle linebacker. Sonny Styles last year was like obviously excellent. He's a first round pick. He was not a first team all American. He's a first team all Big Ten selection. He had 663 defensive snaps with a PFF grade of 88.6. Peyton Pierce was his backup but also was a third linebacker at times. He played two hundred and sixty three snaps with a PFF grade of 82.2. So what is your number on this?
- [35:42]
B
7.
- [35:44]
A
And this is because like Peyton Pierce might be pretty good, right? Because I'm also. Yeah.
- [35:53]
B
I just kind of like think he has it like he's not the same. Again, not the same player is sunny because he's. The measurables are different. But I think like sure. Tackling ability.
- [36:04]
A
Yep.
- [36:05]
B
Check. And ability to like wear the green dot, make the calls, get people lined up. Check. So he's not gonna run a 4. 4. Whatever Sonny ran. But. And that's why he's not a 10. But I think everything else is kind of there maybe, maybe a little less in pass coverage too because he's not a former defensive back. But aside from that I think. I think he's got most of what he needs. So I'm pretty confident.
- [36:35]
A
When you think of the recent run of Ohio State middle linebackers, could Peyton Pierce be the second best one behind Sonny Styles?
- [36:43]
B
If you're just talking like pure off ball linebacker and like not factoring Arvel into that because of his like on ball, off ball stuff. Yes, I think so. Because you're talking like Sonny Cody better
- [36:54]
A
than Cody Simon who was a fourth round pick.
- [36:56]
B
I think it could be. Yeah. Yeah. Or like better than Tommy Ekenberg. Yeah, I think so.
- [37:02]
A
Like Cody Simon who was incredibly important and was an excellent football player.
- [37:07]
B
Very good. Yeah.
- [37:08]
A
For the 2024 football team national championship football team. Like if Peyton. If we think Peyton Pierce can be like that plus that's really good. It's.
- [37:20]
B
I think he could just be that. Right. If he's just as good as Cody Simon was.
- [37:25]
A
And honestly like that might be a 7. Like that plus might be like an 8.5. It's just that we're Talking about, like the. The most together human being who also was an F. I. I think it's possible that in terms of like, dude who is on his stuff but is also an athletic freak, I don't know that I've. I don't know that there's been a better combination at Ohio State in 20 years that I've covered this team.
- [37:55]
B
Yeah, he's the. Yeah, he. He just fills the clean, freaky scale. It's like, there's all there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:03]
A
Yes. Well, I wish I could have said that to him. Sonny, good luck to you. It's been a pleasure covering you. You fill the clean, freaky scale. And. And then he would say, please get away from me, old man. So two, like sevens here. The sevens here. Like, this could be a 9. If sunny styles wasn't that. Because it might be like, oh, no, Peyton Pierce. No, Peyton Pierce could be good.
- [38:25]
B
Yeah. Like, and like, if this was. If this was Sunny Styles coming off of like 20, 24 and he just decided to go to the draft, I think maybe it would be a nine. But then Sonny took another step.
- [38:37]
A
Right.
- [38:37]
B
Obviously last year, so. But yeah, I don't know. I just think I. I don't really worry about Peyton Pierce stepping into the Mike linebacker role, like, kind of at all. I just think he's ready for it.
- [38:49]
A
Okay, let's do Caleb Downs. Caleb Downs. And like trying to explain, like, who's going to replace him. I just put basically like every safety because it's like, well, Jalen McLean, who started next to him last year, might be up closer to the line of scrimmage more often as a. More of a playmaker, which would way replace Caleb Downs, but also, well, if Jalen McLean started last year and Jalen McLean's starting this year is like, the replacement is like, then who's playing the other safety spot, the deep safety spot. And that's going to be some combination of Terry Moore and Leroy Roker. And like, by the way, Terry Moore at Duke missed last year with a knee injury, but the year before that was the highest graded safety by PFF in the power conferences. Like, so.
- [39:35]
B
Right.
- [39:36]
A
We, we have a lot of people saying things like this, though. Bill, Alex, I picked Caleb. His value is intangible and tough to quantify, specifically with his ability to diagnose plays and get everyone in the right spots. I like Jalen McLean, but he's not Caleb. SQ said when players messed up or missed an assignment on defense, they had to explain themselves to Caleb Downs first. Then the player would make it to the sideline and answer the same question from coaches. The answer is Caleb Downs. The. This can't be a serious question or it's a massive scop by Doug, like to even ask about this, right? Like, people like, like this, like Caleb Downs was a coach on the field. Caleb Downs was like the most prepared, prepared college football player that we've ever seen. Like, how can it be anybody other than him as the most difficult to replace? What do you think about this whole thing?
- [40:30]
B
I'm so. He's not like, in terms of scores that I have devised here, he's, he's not like the most difficult, but I, I understand why people would think that he is. And like, I agree with like everything that was said there. Like, I just. It's hard to imagine someone having the grasp of the entire defense and the entire offense in quite the same way that Caleb did. But I do think there's an interesting blend of like, experience and athleticism here that can help like, balance out the loss of that. So like, I don't, I don't think they'll quite make up for it entirely, but I also don't think it's like impossible for them to be still pretty darn good at the safety position even though they're losing Caleb Downs.
- [41:19]
A
Yeah, I, I think if they were, if they were. And this is, this is the hard thing is like how this worked out because we think Jaylen McLean has a chance to be a really like a, like an all big ten, maybe even more kind of player. Because Terry Moore was like so good the last time he got on the field. If they were just like plugging and playing Fahim Delane here, which I think, which in December is maybe what they thought we thought they would do, it's like, here's Fahim Delaney. He's a, as a top 100 national recruit, he's a second year guy and he's just. They're going to start Jaylen Mlan and Fahim Delane and those are going to be the two starting deep safeties. As good as Fahim Delaine is or might be, he transferred to lsu. I think we would have more questions. But like, Terry Moore's done this, right? And if that's the guy who's gonna like the, the, the snap, right, who makes up for the snaps, it's Terry Moore. I think you gotta give a nod there and then, by the way, if Leroy Roker is playing well enough to like, also deserve to be on the field, okay, like, and I know there's like an Earl little conversation. I kind of saved him for Lorenzo Styles replacement, so we can talk about him later. But we've talked about how good we think the secondary might be. This is a nod to we think they've put together a good safety room.
- [42:36]
B
I do think they put together a very good safety room. And like, I am, I think I've talked about this. I definitely wrote about it in the spring. But just like something, something that I saw after one of the spring practices just like kind of made me viewed Jaylen McLean and not a different light, but just sort of like crystallized from like, I think he's going to be okay. Kind of like taking on this mantle. And it was Matt Patricia on the field barking out calls like he's a safety. There's Caleb Downs sitting on the bench watching him do it. And then Jalen McLean is sitting right next to Caleb Downs and like, Matt Patricia does a call, says, like, gives a little spiel about it. Caleb Downs, like, listens, says something to Jayla McLean. Jalen McLean nods his head and they're on to the next thing. And they just like, they did that for like a half hour after practice one day and it's just like he, here's the guy who's being groomed to take over this one extremely important responsibility in the safety room.
- [43:32]
A
Yep.
- [43:33]
B
And you know, we don't, we have yet, I guess, to talk about Jaylen McLean in quite the same way that we've talked about Caleb Downs in terms of like, you know, football acumen. But I think he's pretty sharp and he's very serious, as you've noted, sort of like about his job and what's expected of him. So like, I'm not saying he 100 has what Caleb had, but I, I think he's got some of what Caleb had and maybe more than what people realize. So I, I, I, it doesn't mean I'm at a 10, but it also doesn't mean like I'm at a 2.
- [44:07]
A
Yeah.
- [44:07]
B
With this spot. Yeah.
- [44:08]
A
I'm at a 6. What are you.
- [44:10]
B
I'm also at a 6. Okay.
- [44:14]
A
Okay. SQ also said we need more SEC hate and robot talk. So we'll get there. There's a lot we just weren't acknowledged. So I, I, we have a substack. Billandougosu substack.com Somebody Taylor Lorenz did a some kind of check of she said that 20. What did she say?
- [44:44]
B
I think it was a 25 top bestsellers across every, every category.
- [44:49]
A
Category. Yeah, she looked at the, the last 10 posts from the 25 top bestsellers in every category. The Bill and Doug show is one of the top 25 bestsellers in sports on all of substack. We're like 16, I think right now. And she was trying to figure out how much AI is being used by the best substackers and we use none.
- [45:13]
B
We do use none. Yeah. A very early iteration of our logo was I used Chat GPT to create it, but then we never used that. So other than that.
- [45:24]
A
Yeah. And. And I don't care if there's any robots listening to this. I'm not hurting your feelings. I don't care. We're not here for you. We don't want. If you're a robot listening to the show, turn us off. The show is not for you. But we'll talk about. We're gonna. We're doing more stuff here in the Bill of Doug Show. We're gonna get some more SEC talk. We're gonna. Some more robot talk. Cade McDonald. I grouped this for the vote, but we're going to talk about everybody individually because lots of people had opinions about trying to replace Kaden McDonald with defensive tackle Cassie. She picked this Kaden McDonald Kaden Curry slot. This is mostly due to who is replacing them, in my opinion and my faith in how they'll do. Not so much the person leaving or what they provided for us last year, if that makes sense. I would love to circle back on the at this at the end of the next season to see how many of us were right. So this is right. If we're talking about Cade McDonald, we're talking about transfers primarily here. There's Will Smith Jr. Who was his backup last year, stepping up. There's James Smith. There's John Walker being added here. Folic says, let's face it, Caleb Downs is a generational talent and you just can't replace that. But the safety room has a bunch of solid guys and should be fine. Positionally, I have to go with kmac. There is likely to be a big drop off there and it's probably going to hurt JW. I think they will miss Kaden McDonald the most biggest gap between replacement and his productivity. John, another vote for KMAC. I mean, 65 tackles from the nose tackle position and his disruption in the run game will be hard to replace. What do you think of those comments?
- [46:57]
B
I agree.
- [47:01]
A
Who do you view as the. The. The like. How do you view replacing Kaden McDonald's? I don't think they have Smith. Okay, okay. Who can come the closest? How do they come the closest?
- [47:20]
B
I, I would guess maybe say John Walker or Will Smith would be my guess. Neither. Like John Walker's a little closer in, in weight to Caleb. Will Smith, I think. Yeah. Excuse me. To Kaden and Will Smith I think probably plays it like the, the better leverage and like tougher ability to kind of like root out of the middle that then, that Kaden played with. But there's not. This is my lowest score because there's, there's just, there's. There's nothing I think close to a like for like replacement for Katie McDonald on the roster this year.
- [47:57]
A
What's your number?
- [47:59]
B
Three.
- [48:01]
A
I'm a six, but I don't know if I believe it. What do we think of the idea that we just ran through four draft picks in the top 11 and it's possible that we think the toughest guy to replace is a second rounder? Is this about, is it, is it about like that a guy like Caden McDonald is harder to find? Is it a shortcoming on the roster that like actually no. There's other guys out there like Kate McDonald, they just don't have them on this roster and they should. Is this like an acknowledgment that, that Kaden is like that good to be a run stuffer who also can disrupt the passing game? Like why. Why is this number so low? Why are people agreeing with you and feeling this way?
- [48:48]
B
They haven't recruited to this specific piece of Matt Patricia's defense yet. It's actually like why I'm. And you can see it coming in the high school recruiting like they're adding. So like they added Jameer Perez this, this class and they're after some, some beefier defensive tackles. Be out beyond that. But like it's not. Ohio State does not bring in a lot of like 330 plus defensive tackles. They tend to want the, the kind of like leaner 3 technique 1 technique types like they just started kind of playing a true nose. So they asked a 2 Gap last year. But I think as long as Matt Patricia's here, they're going to want to continue to do that. And I think that's good. And it's not like it's not their base defense necessarily, but it's a pretty big part of what they want to do. And I just don't know how effective that's going to be without a guy like Katie McDonald in the middle. Like, you can ask James Smith to play nose, you can ask John Walker to play nose. I don't know that they're gonna be very good at it, especially James Smith. So I don't know like I have a lot of questions about defensive tackle maybe. Well, I shouldn't say that. I like Edric Houston. I think Edric Houston's gonna be pretty good. But I also don't think he's a guy you want doing this job necessarily either. You want him, you want him more in that, that three Tech spot I think, and showing off some of that pass rushing chops. And I like Will Smith but like is he ready to go from playing whatever he played last year, like 200 snaps to like 450 snaps? I, I don't know. And then like I just, I don't know what to make of James Smith and John Walker. I think, I think they're interesting additions but like neither one of them are anywhere near what like Ohio State's best defensive tackles have been over the last few years. So with this it's, there's a lot of projection there. So I don't know. And like, like Kaden was just like the perfect player for that role and did so much to clean up things for the second level defenders that I just have a really hard time seeing them mimicking that in any kind of substantial way. I'm happy to be wrong about it, but I like when I just think of that particular skill set, I don't know that I see it on the roster this year.
- [51:02]
A
If Jarquez Carter was still here instead of transferring to Miami, would he be part of the solution in your mind as a second year player?
- [51:08]
B
Yeah, potentially. I think so. And it's not like I don't think, I don't know that Ohio State was like happy to see him leave necessarily, but, but it would have been nice to keep him. And I don't like it's a little surprised like, like John Walker's got like, you know, he's, he's, what's he listed at? He's over £300 for sure. He's 63303. There were some like pretty beefy defensive tackles in the portal, like true noses, true nose types that Ohio State didn't go out and add. So like, like trying to turn guys who aren't true noses into noses to try to replace Kaden McDonald. I just, I think is some, some tricky math that maybe isn't going to work out.
- [52:00]
A
Kaden McDonald, 448 snaps last year. PFF grade of 86.2 which was the second best defense defensive tackle grade in the country. First Team All American. James Smith at Alabama last year, 422 snaps, same amount of playing time 55.8 PFF grade John Walker 495 snaps 70.7 grade at UCF. And again it's just I, I think the PFF stuff here is a little, slightly informative to try to compare a little bit. Donald was awesome, Ken McDonald was awesome last year and it's our, our dedicated educated there on this right. There's a lot of people who are like this is my vote, this is my vote. And we'll reveal the votes in a second. Couple other people to think about. I lumped the tight ends together. Max Claire and Will Kazmarick both his top 100 picks. Anthony said tight ends easily as his vote. Replacing second and third round picks with a guy from the Mac. A 25 year old who has barely played and a skinny sophomore is going to be a disaster.
- [53:01]
B
Oh, a guy from the Mac. As if one of the guys who went out wasn't a guy from the Mac.
- [53:06]
A
Yeah so it's like yeah getting Mason Williams from Ohio, Will Kazmarick came from Ohio, played two years here was like pretty decent year one and then was really good in year two. Mason Williams from Ohio, Hunter Welsing from Northwestern primarily though probably Nate Roberts stepping up as a second year player who was used mostly as a fullback a year ago and 160 snaps to be the number one tight end. Like how, what, what's your number on how it's how hard it's going to be to replace the tight ends.
- [53:36]
B
I have eight. I like Roberts. I think it's like and like he's not, I don't like skinny. I don't know what that means but he's because he's not I think he's got the size, it's 240 pounds. I think he's got the size right now as a sophomore to play it. I think Mason Williams is like a reasonable replacement for Will cast Merrick. Maybe he's more like year one cast Merrick than he is year two cast Merrick which is why I'm not an eight, not a ten. But I think they're okay there. I, I, I, I, I, I don't, I guess I would have preferred them add a tight end with a little more something to him maybe. But you know their portal additions at tight end have been or valuations anyway have been pretty strong so I think you get Keenan Bailey like a little bit benefit of the doubt with what he's brought in. So I think, I think they're Okay. I don't, I don't. I would disagree that it is by far the position you should be most worried about.
- [54:37]
A
It's one of those. I mean, I do think that. Right. Can they play 12 personnel when they want to? Will they have faith in two tight ends to be able to use that in their offense as much as they want to without being like, man, this would be a great spot to go 12, but we don't trust it. And I, I think the answer to that's going to be yes.
- [54:55]
B
I, I think with Robertson, Mason, Williams, that answer is yes. And like, I don't think Bennett Christian played well last year, but he's also part of this conversation too.
- [55:05]
A
Sure.
- [55:05]
B
As a, as a fifth year guy who's back, who's played I think 500 career snap, so he's got experience as well. So I think they'll be able to play 12 and I don't think anybody wants to see them play 13. So why, why would you be, why would you be concerned about their ability to do that?
- [55:19]
A
And even like when we talked, I'll be, I'll be curious to see how much they use fullback. Who's they. You who they use as fullback? Because like we would call it 13 or 14 at times last year. What's like if the guy playing fullback wasn't listed as a tight end on the roster, we wouldn't have called it that. Right. They weren't lining up like three tight ends in the line of scrimmage all that much.
- [55:37]
B
So I actually think they're more likely to do that with Arthur Smith than they were last year, which I don't, I, I personally don't mind if they're going to play three tight ends. I'd rather them do it that way than make one play fullback.
- [55:52]
A
Yeah. And it's one of those. It's like Claire, I was, I think surprised a little bit in the end by where both those guys got drafted. I don't know when I was watching Ohio State play last year, I don't, I know I did not think to myself, man, I'm watching the second round and the third round tight end right now. Watch out, baby. Like, that's no offense to those guys, but that's, I don't think they were used that way. I don't think they impacted the offense like in the way that just thinking about second and third round picks maybe would like conjure something. I don't think that's what we saw. So like that, like, I don't think what those tight ends did last year feels irreplaceable.
- [56:35]
B
Yeah, I don't think I want to like because I'm wasn't. Didn't like Jacksonville like reach super high for a tight end and then everyone free. Yeah. At 56. Then everyone freaked out because it's like what the hell is Jacksonville doing? And then the run on tight ends kind of started. I wonder like if Jacksonville's 11 year old GM knew what he was doing. If maybe some of the draft the drafting of tight ends would have played out differently. But yeah, I don't. I actually was higher on Claire. Not higher but like higher on the idea of Claire being selected earlier than people thought. Thought he might. Than I was or excuse me on cast Merrick being selected higher than people thought he might. That I was on Claire. But I know I'm not like terribly surprised they went where they went. I do, I think they were good players. I think has married some more difficult one to replace because he was. I, I think that.
- [57:28]
A
So you're an eight, I'm a seven. I, I think it feels a little more like you know, replacing Max Claire and Will Kazmark feels a little more like well that's what they do every year. Like that's, that feels typical to me. Like this is what college football is and I would be maybe higher than a seven if I thought I had like a. Like it feels like the transfers are fine and Nate Roberts is a. Was a big time recruit who then did not play the position he was recruited to play last year as a true freshman. So now is like hey, he's the number one tight end as a second year guy who really hasn't played any tight end. And it's like well, highly recruited second year players should play at Ohio State. But like it feels like maybe a little bit less of a sure thing. So again I don't think I look at the tight end room and think like oh God, they're in trouble. It's just maybe I'm not exactly sure how it's going to happen but I think they'll find two tight ends they can play and then they'll be fine.
- [58:23]
B
Yeah, that's kind of how I feel and I just don't know like in the grand scheme of things that are everything's important to Ohio State success. But if you're like ranking these conversations we're having like tight end just doesn't rise to the same level as some of these other spots we're talking about.
- [58:38]
A
All right. Davison ig Big Nosen as the boundary Corner. And this is pretty much like a one for one, right? Like, is it fair to say Davis and igbignosan out and Devin Sanchez in?
- [58:51]
B
I think so, yeah.
- [58:53]
A
What's your number? 15. Okay. You know how to play this game? I said 12, but, like, that's the point. And this is. And this. This is nothing about Davison.
- [59:07]
B
No. It's just that I think he's going to be replaced by an All American.
- [59:10]
A
Yeah. So, like. And like, so this is. But this is the first one where we are going above where we think the replacement will be better than the player. Right. So again, you. You got to have some of those. But this is about the way Devin Sanchez looked in the spring, way people talked about him in the spring, the way he talked about himself and what he learned from last year and what his goals are. And it's also the clips they kept putting out about defending Jeremiah Smith in practice. So. Yeah, yeah, you go from like a first team all big ten corner to a first team all American corner, and that's 12 or 15.
- [59:51]
B
Yeah, that's enough. That's a. It's not like, it's not even like they, like, it's not that they needed to upgrade over igb. Like, if they got same level of corner play next year, I think that'd be great. But I just, I think they're gonna get better because they have a kid who was the top player in his position and he's in year two and he's got some scars and I think he's ready to roll. So I think he'll. I think he'll be quite good this year.
- [60:14]
A
All right, that's easy. Let's go to Lorenzo Styles as the nickel, as the guy who more often than not lines up in the slot, also winds up at deep safety sometimes. Again, like, this is. I think it's Earl Little, like, as a shorthand. The idea that Jermaine Matthews might move inside at times and play some of this slot coverage, like, I think is part of it. How do you think about replacing Lorenzo Styles, who wound up a 5th round pick? I think in large part because he burned up, ran a 427 at the combine.
- [60:46]
B
Yeah, I think, I think mostly or a little, but I think then you have the, the Jermaine Matthews, like, slot package there as well as, like a situational thing. So, like the. I did combine those two things a little bit, but it's primary or a little. Yeah.
- [61:00]
A
So what's your number?
- [61:02]
B
11.
- [61:04]
A
Mine is also an 11, which is maybe a little more because this was one of those, like, when we were doing, like, our top 22 Buckeyes during the course of last season, like, Lorenzo Styles didn't make it very much. And there was probably the first half of the year, it was like, I don't know how good this guy is. And then by the end of the year, I think you believed in him a little bit more. Like, the. The comparison of the slot receiver and the slot cover guy and what Brandon Innis was and wasn't. What Lorenzo Styles was and wasn't was an interesting. Like, it was sort of like the weak quote, weak link on both sides of the ball. Like, as we thought about, like, who are the best players, who are the most impactful players. And then Lorenzo rose up a little bit and then went pro and ran fast. So, like, we'll see what Brandon Ennis does. But it does not seem a huge ask for to be even better at that spot.
- [61:52]
B
No, I. I don't think so. But I also say that as someone who, like, who, like, I changed my opinion quite a bit on Lorenzo over the course of last season. Like, I. I thought. I'll just restate it. Like, I thought it was going to be a disaster starting him at nickel and he was going to render himself, like, unplayable. It's kind of based off the way he performed in the dime roll the year before, and that didn't happen at all. He was. He was like, you know, play here, play there. Maybe he gave up, but he was pretty good. And also his ability to play back was. Was integral in allowing Caleb Downs to do what he needed to do for the defense. So, like, it all kind of fit together pretty well. But I just think even given how fast Lorenzo was, whether it's Earl Little playing there or doing the thing with Jermaine Matthews, I just think they'll be a little more dynamic in that spot this year.
- [62:35]
A
Yeah. Okay, so we're both at 11, which brings us to Kaden Curry. First team, all Big Ten, 610 snaps with a PFF grade of 90.6. PFF grade, PFF. Loved Kaden Curry, who just was, like, super productive. As I thought about this replacement, I said Bo Atkinson, Zion, Grady Koi, Russo. Is that right. The right way to think about this? Because Kenyatta Jackson's doing his thing at the opposite defensive end. Is there anybody else you would throw into this replacement mix?
- [63:05]
B
No, I don't think so. I think these are the three. I think that's right.
- [63:08]
A
What's your number?
- [63:11]
B
I said eight.
- [63:12]
A
I also said Eight? Why'd you say eight?
- [63:15]
B
Because I think they're gonna be pretty close. Like, Kaden had a really good year. Hyper productive and like, play with a great motor. Just like, you didn't have to worry about him, right? You just like, you sort of knew we're gonna play. But, like, you know, I think good spring for Bo Atkinson, like, interesting spring, makes you think, like, is there actually something more? There's. I think there's reason to be excited about that. I, I think Zion Grady is going to be a good player. Just young, but with more experience, I think. I think he'll be okay. And then, like, I think it could lump Rousseau and James Smith together as the two guys who transferred together from Alabama who are former high school teammates. But I believe, like, pretty strongly that there's potentially, like, a lot more to tap into with Rusol than there is with Smith. And part of that is like, you know, what Russo was asked to do at Alabama sometimes was like an on ball, off ball guy. I think if you just like, kind of put him on a line of scrimmage, probably better off there. He's been hurt a little bit too. So he's like, not quite had the same Runway, I guess, to like, put it all together that James Smith has had. So, like, I could see a reason for thinking there's more potential to tap into there with, with Russo. So between those three, I think you can come up with something fairly close to what Kaden Curry gave you last year.
- [64:28]
A
And again, like, hyper productive and splash plays too, right? I mean, he, he body slammed the Heisman winner on the first play, the Big Ten championship game. He had the strip sack, whatever game that was like, he, he like really showed up at times. Real records really showed up at times. But the idea of, like, through three years, he was like, yeah, he's fine. And then when he got a chance, he. He seized it. But I, like, in that line of thinking, I think Russo or Atkinson could maybe do a similar thing or combined they could come close. And then you throw in. What if the young guy's ready? And when you in Zion Grady, when you re watch the spring game, didn't you think Zion Grady maybe even flashed more than we had talked about initially?
- [65:12]
B
Yeah, I thought so. Because part of the spring game was like, boy, these old defensive ends are really beating up on these young tackles. When, like, Zion Grady went out there and started doing some of the same stuff as a, a sophomore, it's like, okay, he's got, I think he's got the motor too. Like, I think the, the thing you're maybe most missing with Kaden Curry is that just like, he doesn't stop moving and he's just, like, annoying to block and difficult for offenses to account for because he's just going to try to do anything he possibly can to get to the ball. And I think Zion Grady's got some of that to him. Yeah.
- [65:43]
A
Okay. So by our combined numbers, we find that the most difficult guy to replace is Kaden McDonald. Our combined rating is a 9. Orval Reese's second, he's a 10. Caleb Down. No. Carnell Tate is third. He's an 11.5. Caleb Downs is fourth, he's a 12. Sunny Styles is fifth. He's a 14. The tight ends are 6. They're a 15. Kaden Curry is seventh, he's a 16. And then the two where we think the replacement will exceed the player. Lorenzo Styles, 22, IGB 27. What do you think of that rating? If. If our conclusion is of the draft picks. Oh, I forgot to do one. Who will replace Ethan Onianwa as Ohio State's ninth best offensive lineman? Do you think that will be difficult
- [66:44]
B
to replace Vaishan Washington from Dartmouth, who's not here yet.
- [66:49]
A
Let's dive in that. Kaden McDonald. Are you surprised? Like, this was your three that helped make this. Like, is this or is this right? Does this feel right? That in order hardest to replace McDonald, Reese Tate. Does that. Does that feel about right to you?
- [67:07]
B
Yeah, I think so. I, you know, I don't, I don't know that maybe Ohio State fans necessarily agree with that. It is, it is difficult. The Caleb Downs conversation is, like, super nuanced. So, like, I, I can see a lot of different points of view, especially on that one, but for me, yes, that makes sense.
- [67:27]
A
Okay, in the poll, which Ohio State draft pick will the Buckeyes have the toughest time replacing? The choices? Carnell Tate, Orville Reese, Sonny Styles, Caleb Downs, and then Kaden McDonald slash the tight end. Slash. IGB slash. Curry slash. Etc. What do you think Was the number one vote total in the poll? What percent and who was it?
- [67:55]
B
Caleb Downs, 38%.
- [68:01]
A
Well done. Caleb Downs, 43%. Okay, won the vote as the most difficult to replace. What do you think was second? Oh,
- [68:15]
B
Reese,
- [68:18]
A
no. Second was Sunny Styles at 23. Third was the Caden McDonald tight ends. IGB Kaden Curry group at 22. Fourth was Arvel Reese at 7 and fifth was Carnell Tate at 6. And that is very interesting that Tate and Reese were last. Were the bottom two by a lot. When for us they were the second and third most difficult behind KMAC and
- [68:45]
B
also the two highest drafted.
- [68:47]
A
We, we have a different view of this than our dedicated educated sub sack subscribers do. And I think that probably that primarily comes from maybe us having more belief in Jalen McClain, Terry Moore, Leroy Roker as replacements at safety and Peyton Pierce as a replacement at linebacker. Whereas maybe the voters are like Caleb down to sunny. Styles are both individually the heart and souls and brains of that defense and they are so rare, like nobody can replace them. And that vote feels to me more about the guys leaving, whereas us saying like it's not as big of a thing is more about the belief in the guys who are replacing them.
- [69:39]
B
Yes, I, I think that's right. And I also think like I, I definitely err more on the side of like tangible replacement than intangible. Because like I, I do think. But even if you did want to lean more, like I just like, I think Peyton Pierce is ready to be like the brain of the defense. And like I said, I think Jalen McLean is perhaps more ready to do that at the safety spot than people might realize. And then you like move to the tangible and it's just like I don't see a big old two gap and defensive tackle on the team to replace Kaden or some of the contested catch stuff of Cardinal Tate or the versatility packed into one person of Arvel Reese.
- [70:26]
A
My individual lowest grade was Arvel Reese. I, I think Arvell Reese. If you asked me, my vote would have been for Arvel Reese. And I was, as I was watching the votes kind of unfold, I, I was surprised by how low his vote total was because I think it is the combination of. And we've talked about this multiple times with several of these guys, like they all, they play, you know, they're kind of doing multiple things, playing multiple positions within playing their one position. But I feel like his ability to be like a straight up, like do all the linebacker things you ask but then come down on the line and menace is very special. And. The, the thing that's, that's difficult about. Right. I think the menace of Arvel Reese and the disruption of Kaden McDonald really had an impact on the defensive ends for Ohio State. And I will be very curious what the defensive ends look like for Ohio State without those two things. And it's not that Kaden Curry wasn't a great individual player, but he had some dangerous things going on around him that allowed him to be really productive. Right. And I Do think Kenyatta Jackson was a really good football player last year, but I think he's going to need to raise his level without Kaden McDonald and Orville Reese kind of in his orbit, making his job a little bit easier. And I'm just, I'm just curious about Ohio State's ability to make that happen.
- [72:02]
B
Yeah, I am too. I could also see like, you know, as we go more through the summer, my opinion changing on some of these spots too as we like, you know, you hear things, you know, see a guy doing a workout in June when you're there for a high school camp, like, oh, that guy looks pretty good. So like I, I don't know but at least like, you know, I think that can make me feel better about the Tate conversation and the Reese conversation. I just, I, I don't know what could make me feel better about the McDonald conversation until we start seeing some games. And even like it's just, it's just, it's. Unless Will Smith is like ready to be a star, which maybe is. I don't know, I just, I don't, I don't see how that one kind of rectifies itself in a way that I think it could be better than like the three that I have it. But I don't know how like, I don't know how it could become like, you know, anything close to a 10 or certainly above that.
- [72:57]
A
So again we, we. They had 11 draft picks. We're not talking about the backup offensive lineman. We lumped the tight ends together. So we did this nine things, right. We re ranked nine things. We had two getting better and seven getting worse. What do we think of that? Like is that. I don't think that's like a five alarm fire. I think it is an acknowledgment of reality and kind of what we talked about at the beginning.
- [73:21]
B
Yeah. Because worse than what it was doesn't mean bad. Right. It's just like right. Pretty. It's a pretty high bar to clear. Like I don't think. Yeah, I don't know. Like of all the positions we discuss, I think the only two where I, where I have legitimate concerns about are they actually going to have. All they need are probably receiver and defensive tackle. The rest of the positions, I think they're going to be pretty good even if they're not as good as last year.
- [73:47]
A
Yeah, I think that's right. I will say like in running through this very quickly, looking at the 14 draft picks from 2024 and then I did a quick version of this. And I lumped the running backs together. Quinton Judkins and Trayvon Henderson. So it was 13 ratings I had from 24 to 25. And it was a little bit of, like, what actually happened. It was a little bit of expectation, right? I had, let's see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I had six that got worse, five that got better, and two that were even. So off a national championship team, they lost 14 draft picks. We lumped one together, 13 overall, six got worse, and they went 12, 0 in the regular season. Right? Like that, like, acknowledging like they. They got worse at some spots and like, it was okay. Now they also got better at some spots. And so, like, 6 to 5 to 2 is different than 2 down or 2 up and 7 down, which is what we're doing right now. But, like, it felt like, and we'll talk about this a little more specifically, 24 to 25. It felt like a little bit of, like, where they got worse and then where they got better kind of balanced each other out if that wound up sort of being a wash for 25. Do we need to be wrong on a couple here for this season to be what Ohio State fans want it to be? That if we're saying of the nine that we ranked, we're expecting seven to be worse and only two to be better? Do we need to look back and be like, no, it's more like five to four when we get to the end of the year, we were wrong about this. We underestimated this guy, like, that kind of thing. Or can they absolutely be worse at seven positions and win a national championship?
- [75:48]
B
How big of a jump do you think the quarterback is going to make?
- [75:50]
A
Well, that's the thing. I mean, is this entirely a conversation about. Well, we're not talking about offensive line and quarterback because they didn't have any guys get drafted there and basically everybody's back and we think all of them are going to be better because they're older and more experienced. And if you get better at offensive line and quarterback, you elevate the entire team in a way that, like, who cares if you went down a little bit at defensive tackle? Because, like, you just protected a quarterback who ripped people apart and threw for 320 yards every game?
- [76:24]
B
I mean, I think that. I think that could be the reality. I think my answer to your question, though, is probably that we need to be wrong at least a little bit. At least me, like, I. I think I need to be wrong about defensive tackle.
- [76:40]
A
Like that. It's not a three that it's like, yeah, there's nobody like Kid McDonald, but they were fine up there.
- [76:45]
B
They were fine. Yeah.
- [76:46]
A
They weren't getting gashed. They're okay.
- [76:49]
B
And it's not even like, I guess it's not even defense. It's like, it's like that specific defensive tackle position because, like I said, like, in the 3tech spot, I think they'll be okay.
- [76:57]
A
Yeah. And then this is not taking into account. It's like, well, Edric Houston. We didn't talk about Edric Houston because Edric Houston's replacing Edric Houston. So there's no conversation to have. But also, like, what if Edric Houston is like two and a half times better than he was last year? So that's the spot where they went up. What if. Even better. What if Kenyatta Jackson is even better? Right. What if Jermaine Matthews is even better?
- [77:18]
B
Yeah. There's also the balance between the two defensive tackle spots as well. Right. Like, it's like if Edger Houston is significantly better than he was last year, but then whoever's playing next to him is a few degrees worse than what Katie McDonald was. It's like, well, in the end, are you okay? I think. I think maybe the answer is yes. I just. I. The thing I am, I'm worried about a little bit is if Matt Patricia is gonna, like, have to scheme around some of what he'd like to do, because you don't have that Kaden McDonald type in the middle of your defensive line. I think he's smart enough. I think he's smart enough to figure that out. And, like, he's not a. Whatever. He's not a one trick pony. He's run every defense imaginable throughout his career. So I think they'll be able to figure out which, which defense fits this group the best. But if you, if you were to say, like, copy and paste their plan from last year, who's. Who's wearing number 98 in the middle this year? It's like, I don't know. I don't. I don't think they have that guy. So that's. That's why I'm lower there than maybe. Maybe I should be. And maybe I'm expressing more concern than I need to be, but that's just sort of how I arrived at that point.
- [78:23]
A
Okay, you want to run through, like a quick 24 to 25, just like kind of rear view mirror. Like, let people understand, like, what we're talking about here. All right. Ameca Buka to Brandon Ennis at slot receiver. I said that was a three.
- [78:39]
B
Yeah, that's. That's. That might be more like a two or a one.
- [78:44]
A
And like, that was a huge drop off. But then Carnell Tate, who was the same starter, went, whoop. And it was like, it was fine. Right. So, like that. That's one of the points here. It's just like with the, with the offensive line injuries a little tough. Donovan Jackson, I said, like, you know, guard and tackle. I said to Austin Serra Veld and Luke Montgomery, right. That some of the left tackle, some of the left guard, I said was like an 8. And that was Donovan Jackson being a first round pick. But, like, what do you think? What would you give that?
- [79:17]
B
Yeah, I think that's probably right. Probably about. Yeah, seven or an eight.
- [79:20]
A
Okay. Tylee Williams to Edric Houston. I gave it a seven. Would you. Would you say it was a bigger drop off than that?
- [79:28]
B
Yeah, I, like, without having seen the season, like, like going into last year, I might have said like 9 or 10. Like, I think Eric's gonna be like, perhaps as good. But then what he. How he ended up playing like he and Taiwan Malone combined, I would say, like, probably more like a 5 compared to Ty Leak.
- [79:46]
A
Okay. I don't even want, like, Josh Simmons to Austin Saravel. I just said even because it's like half a year of Simmons at left tackle, but like, Sarabel was good left tackle. Like, that's. He wasn't there. When they won the national championship. Running backs Quinchon Judkins and Travion Henderson to Bo Jackson and CJ Donaldson. I said that was a four.
- [80:04]
B
Yeah. Maybe a three.
- [80:07]
A
Yeah. Like, Bo ran for a thousand. But I think, like, you could feel during the course of the year that I think Ryan Day wished they had more certainty and hardcore belief in the run game and it might have affected how they went about their businesses. Like, Bo did the best he could. But like, the fact that C.J. donaldson and James Peoples as the perceived replacements there blew up in the first month was like, quite an issue.
- [80:32]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [80:34]
A
And they still went 12. Still went 12. Zero. I didn't know how to do this. I said, like, JT Twima load of Kenyatta Jackson and then Jack Sawyer to Kaden Curry. I gave. I said JT to Kenyatta was a nine. And I said Sawyer to Curry was an 11. So, like, if you want to think about that, like, they replaced the two starting defensive ends with the two. Two other starting defensive ends. Like, I thought in the end it was a little even. I don't know what do you think of that? Do you think it was more of a step down?
- [81:03]
B
I think it's difficult because, like, if you take the totality body of work for the season, I think you're right. But then you think about the way, like, Jack played in the playoff and, like, JT played pretty well in the postseason, too. It's like they didn't. I know they only had one playoff game last year, but it's like you didn't feel. Yeah, those.
- [81:20]
A
That.
- [81:20]
B
That group show up quite the same way. So I would probably say the drop off was, like, not well below what you put it, but maybe like, one more point below where you put it.
- [81:31]
A
It is weird in evaluating 2024, like Jack Sawyer and Will Howard, postseason rocket ship pilots are hard to evaluate.
- [81:39]
B
They are, yes.
- [81:41]
A
Because it's like, what are we talking about? Are we talking about, like, the stuff during the season when Will Howard's, like, throwing goofy pics and we're like, what's going on with this guy? Oh, are we talking about. Are we doing the, like, Follow me. We've got this. I'm your guy. That's go win a national title quarterback. And it's like, I don't know. I wouldn't. People wouldn't trade Will Howard for Cam Newton, right? I mean, it's like, what. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you could be more than what you wanted from a quarterback the way he played in the playoff. Let's do him right now. Will Howard, Julian saying, like, in this impossible evaluation, I was like, I said 11, but also, like, postseason only. It's like a one.
- [82:24]
B
I don't know. I. I have no, That's. That's actually like, Ari and I were going back and forth a lot about was if. If Will Howard was Ysa's quarterback, where they have won the title last year. And, like, I don't. I think it's easy to say yes, but I don't, like. Yeah. I don't know. Like, regular season, Julian was probably better. Postseason, Will was obviously way better. So I don't know. Can I pass?
- [82:53]
A
Yeah, I mean, like, there's no answer. It's an impossible answer. Cody Simon to Arvell Reese because, like, Sonny Styles stayed. Right. But really it's more that, like, Sonny became Cody and Arvel became Son. I don't know. But, yeah, they got. I said it was a 12. Like, Cody Simon was awesome. Their linebacker play last year was, like,
- [83:15]
B
as good as it gets, I would say. Because I would say, like, maybe like a. Like a 15 or 16. I think I think it was that much better. Yeah.
- [83:23]
A
Lathan ransom to Jalen McLean. I said it was even.
- [83:28]
B
Yeah, I think I'd say even too. I think they were asked to do a little slightly different things, but in terms of like impact, I think it's probably even.
- [83:36]
A
Ty Hamilton to Kaden McDonald.
- [83:41]
B
Ty Hamilton, very good. Highly underrated, but it's like a 20.
- [83:47]
A
Yeah, I said 13. But like, yeah, like that's. Yeah, you go from. Because again, it's like Ty Hamilton's good and that's the kind of conversation you're having. But like the type of guy that Ohio State should be able to replace. And then they did replace it with a guy who was a first team all American. Jordan Hancock to Lorenzo Styles. I said it was a seven.
- [84:08]
B
Yeah, I think that's right. I think. I think there was just a little bit more of an impact there for Jordan Hancock.
- [84:13]
A
And then Denzel Burke to Jermaine Matthews. I said wasn't 11. But it's tough because it's like, it's like Jermaine or it's like Jermaine at the end of the year who kind of was having a tough time or it's like Jermaine better early, but Denzel was also having like. I was watching, like there's just like, like Jermaine was kind of like replacing Denzel a little bit at the end of 24. Anyway. It's, it's. It. They both kind of faded a little bit in their seasons.
- [84:37]
B
Yeah. I would probably say even because of that. Yeah.
- [84:39]
A
Okay. So anyway, like, the point there is like, of course there are gonna be places where you have step backs. You then just also need to have places where you step up. And I think the thing. And then like if we were doing this and we're not because we're going to have 4, 000 more conversations about this. But if we had done offensive coordinator Brian Hartline to Arthur Smith, like, what would we be giving this for a grade?
- [85:07]
B
Oh, yeah, like 17. Yeah, probably. Yeah.
- [85:15]
A
So like, and like that matters. That affects everything.
- [85:18]
B
Right.
- [85:18]
A
And also we didn't, we didn't. We didn't do kicker because he didn't get drafted. But we're doing do Jaden Fielding to like what we think Connor Hawkins should be and what the pedigree and the resume of Connor Hawkins is. It's like it's another one that might be like a 20 because I think that guy probably makes 27 yard field goal and then like the whole season changes.
- [85:37]
B
The Jaden Fielding get signed.
- [85:39]
A
I don't think I didn't see it. Taiwan Malone and C.J. donaldson to the Saints. Saints and I, I did not see Jaden Fielding. We were right about like the Saints loving the Buckeyes. Can't get enough.
- [85:49]
B
There was also a. What's his name? Jackson Kuach, who was a walk on at Ohio State. He transferred Miami, Ohio and then he got drafted by the Carolina.
- [85:59]
A
Oh, really?
- [85:59]
B
The seventh round. Yeah.
- [86:01]
A
Really.
- [86:02]
B
He transferred I think like two or three years ago. Yeah. Linebacker, former osu.
- [86:08]
A
Welcome.
- [86:09]
B
Huh.
- [86:11]
A
Okay, so that's our hardest to replace. We're gonna, we've been having a conversation about. I wrote about it at the sub stack and we're gonna have a longer conversation on the Substack show on Wednesday about all These draft picks. 25 picks in two years. What does that say about what Ohio State has and hasn't achieved in the last two years? And, and part of my contention is that like I think this talent run is about as good. Like is is in the, the top tier of what we've seen in the modern era of college football. And that means it's fair to discuss a mini dynasty. It's fair to discuss like a dominating one of the great seasons all time in college football history with like an undefeated team that just steamrolls everybody and there's no doubt about who the best team is the whole year. And there's no weird little hiccups. There's because like that's where the talent is. And so I wrote about it and like you and I need to talk about it. And we're going to talk about it for the Substack subscribers on Wednesday.
- [87:17]
B
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. That was, by the way, just to. To tie it all together. That was the start of our com. My conversation with Ari. I texted him, I said, does Sark get any heat down there for having 29 draft picks over three years with nothing to show for it?
- [87:31]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [87:33]
B
He said, no, it doesn't. I said, boy, it must be nice to be the head coach of Texas because that would not happen at Ohio State.
- [87:41]
A
No, that would not happen at Ohio State. Missed the playoff. Okay. Thanks to you guys for being here. We love having these conversations with you guys. We're going to keep having them throughout the off season here on this YouTube feed, here on this podcast feed. We're so grateful that you decide to consume the Bill and Doug show if you want a little more of it. We have some off season ideas. We're going to have some projects. We're going to keep doing two shows a week, most weeks over there. For the Substack subscribers, we're going to keep writing stuff, and we certainly would invite you to join us. Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.