← The Bill Simmons Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript453 lines
- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
You're listening to the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. FanDuel Sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA. We have these fun little Tuesday Friday player performance stuff. We have same game parlays. We have picks for me sometimes and boosts and all kinds of fun things. Get ready in the playoffs. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. And by the way, the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit theringer.com RG to learn more. Listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21/president select states gaming problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Celtic City on HBO and Max 9pm Monday night. Larry Bird shows up. The early 80s begins and it's awesome. Please check it out. This episode is brought to you by VRBO Private Vacation Rentals. With vrbo, you always get the whole house so you and your fellow fans can cheer on your team in peace. What's worse than watching a game with somebody who's not rooting for the same team? You're rooting for nothing. But that's why if you book a vacation house with vrbo, you know all the people in your house, they'll be friends, they'll be family. Ideally, they'll be the ones who also root for my teams. Plan a winning vacation. Make it a vrbo. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have new rewatchables coming up because it is still sports movie month. So we did Blue Chips. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. And the reason we did it was because we did it like in 2017. We didn't even have the categories yet. So we decided March Madness, let's just go. Let's bring this baby back. So much fun to talk about. You can watch that as video podcast on Spotify. You can watch on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well, where we also put up a reaction. The Happy Gilmore 2 trailer that I actually pitched them. My idea for the sports movie sequel I want to see the most and it involves basketball. So you can go check that out on our YouTube channel, the Prestige TV Podcast. We're still covering White Lotus episode six Sunday night on HBO right after it ends. You can go there and you can listen to me and Mallory and Joanna Breakdown episode six, which was fantastic. I am going to Boston in a couple days because we're doing a live rewatchables at House of Blue. We're doing Goodwill Hunting for everybody coming to that, to that live show. We did goodwill hunting, I think in the first two years of the pod, but way more categories. Plus we got Rosilla this time. Perfect movie to do in Boston. And then we're gonna have a Coolidge Corner Film festival Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Check out theringer.com events. There's still some tickets left, I think, for some of the theater from some of the movie stuff. Me and Sean and Chris are going to be there, probably talking after a couple of the movies. So there you go, Coolidge Corner all weekend. I don't think there's going to be a live show with me and Marcillo on Sunday night in Boston. I think we're just going to do the POD regularly. We'll see though. You never know. Could there be a last second live show? Maybe. Anyway, we're also brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook where they have these player performance doubles two leg parlays made for you specifically. Take an NBA player prop like Luka's going to score 30, the Lakers are going to win and they have a ringer player boost token on these placed on any of the games and it's good if you hit them. And there's a lot of good games on Tuesday, including Dallas and the Knicks and Golden State Miami. So stay tuned. I'm going to tweet out my pick on Tuesday. Be sure to claim the ringer PBT in the carousel in the FanDuel sportsbook app this Tuesday. So coming up, the original plan for this podcast was we're going to do 2/3 of a podcast and then put the topper after OKC Clippers tonight. So what happened? We started taping at 10:45am Pacific Time and we just kept going for two hours and we just had a full podcast so we're just going to put it up. So I hope nothing absolutely insane happens to OKC and the Clippers in that game tonight that we regret not talking about. But this is how we landed. It's a very good podcast. It's all coming up next. First, our friends from projip. All right, we staggered this podcast so this part of the POD we are taping at 11am PT. We want to do some 2020 sliding doors. I also wanted to tell you about the Bulls Lakers game I went to last night. Did you happen to see any minutes of that game?
- [04:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I watched the entire second half.
- [04:49]
Bill Simmons
So the Bulls first of all are turning into a very belatedly fun end of the season league pass team because they kind of Know who they are and they play really fast and they have two good guards that attack, attack, attack. And you could tell pretty early this wasn't going to be the Lakers night with the way how hard the Bulls were playing and how much they were attacking the rim. They're outsetting threes. It did make me wonder if there was a little bit of a blueprint in there to beat this Lakers team with. Go, go, go. Keep pushing, keep pushing, keep attacking. They don't really have a rim protector. They don't really want to run up and down. They want to slow things down. And I was trying to think of anyone else in the west that could basically replicate that. And it's obviously okc and it may be last night and I don't know if it's overreaction or not, but last night made me really think like I think they would be in a heap of trouble in an OKC series with the athletes and the speed, and I'm not positive they can match it.
- [05:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Couple things, the Bulls were incredible last night, all right, and the Lakers defense is terrible, but it's the first bat. First came back with LeBron. Those games when he was out, you know, their net rating was negative. Their offense was 21st, their defense was 19th. They still went 3 and 4 I believe is the record. But that was like an all time game. I mean, Bozelas is so much fun. That baseline movie he had on Luca was, was awesome. I mean, Giddy was close to a quadruple double. The first one since David Robinson.
- [06:15]
Bill Simmons
They kept him in there. The end we were driving home and they were like, they're keeping Giddy in in case he can get two more steals. So it's like, whoa, he was. Giddy was incredible. And by the way, let' a victory lap. We were like the only two people in America who liked that trade for the Bulls last summer. So I'm victory lapping that. And by the way, I have the people scouting tracks for the scoot victory lap near the end of the season. And improbable. I had given up, but we both never sold our stock and now I'm ready to run around the track and wave to our fans.
- [06:47]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm not ready for that one yet because I think we liked him so much it was on the path to stardom. But yeah, it's pretty clear he's not going to be the worst player that plays minutes in the NBA and he might stick around for a little while.
- [06:58]
Bill Simmons
That sounds like a victory left for both of us anyway.
- [07:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Man, watching the Lakers broadcast is really funny because you would have thought the Bulls like were the two seed in the East. And when Patrick Williams comes off a curl on the right side and hit that 3 of all people, you're like, okay. I mean, Chicago's just rolling. So back to your blueprint thing. You might be right. You might be right. I think when the lakers went what, 18 and three and their defense was like a top three or four defense in the NBA, I was like, are they really this good?
- [07:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [07:25]
Ryan Rosillo
And now that they're leaking a bit defensively, LeBron in and out of it, you know, like now that he's back, let's judge them based on this. I always find this time of year, these last 10 to 12 games, this closing stretch of the season, I don't want to say all of it is irrelevant, but I really feel like this is the time of the year where you can get tricked and it can be really misleading and there can be just effort nights. You know where there was that San Antonio Knicks game a couple nights ago where mama went insane and the Knicks were trying like you kept watching that game, being like, all right, enough of this. Like the Knicks are going to put together a run and then they're going to figure it out. You have Cleveland, who's lost four in a row, which I don't know if we'll get to that with some of the Mitchell stuff. So we will continue on on the blueprint. Because I mean, is OKC the blueprint to the Lakers or are they just a lot better than the Lakers?
- [08:10]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's the thing. I, but I do think there's people in the NBA and I've certainly considered the case that if you're going to beat okc, it would have to be with a pretty weird, different type of team that has a lot of, you know, guys who have been in big situations and then a big physical, hard team to play with. Multiple scoring options would be the case for LA against okc. OKC hasn't been there. LA is not going to be afraid to be on the road. What I saw last night, you can really use the defaults of, of Luca and 40 year old LeBron against them. And LeBron actually was trying harder than Luca and he was trying to do a chase down box. Luka, he'll, he can get carried away with the refs.
- [08:52]
Ryan Rosillo
I thought LeBron looked great last night physically.
- [08:54]
Bill Simmons
He looked fast.
- [08:55]
Ryan Rosillo
There was that stretch before the two threes that made it a 23 point game when JJ just was like, all right, enough of this. There was a stretch where LeBron was actually like. I was watching for that to be like, if he's just going to. Hey, I'm going to get some cardio in. There was a stretch where you could tell on that one drive before he got to 23 points, it's like, okay. He still thinks they have a chance in this thing.
- [09:12]
Bill Simmons
No question. I thought he looked great and was playing hard. But, yeah, they. I think if you keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, they're going to start to bend a little bit because they don't want to play that way. And the other thing they did was they pressured Luka, which I don't understand why teams don't do this against the Lakers. I don't understand why they don't do it against Boston with Tatum. Anybody that has a non point guard dribbling the ball up, I don't understand why it's not 80ft of pressure. Uh, Giddy was in. Was in and around Luka all night, and Luka was just getting more and more pissed. Finally got a technical. He must have shoved him three or four times. They were talking shit during the free throws. And that's another way to get at this Lakers team is you can really fuck with Luka. He takes everything personally. You can. You could just be like, hey, like, think about okc. Like, hey, Lou, dort just fuck with Luka this whole series. Just stand around him, stand next to him in timeouts. Luka's like a big, can I have my personal space guy? And Giddy was just not having it. So I thought, look, they played out of their minds. And as you said, they were making crazy threes. The Bazellas thing is a real wrinkle. I don't think that's an overreaction thing. But anyway, I was just thinking, blueprint wise, athletes wise, okc. That's the game they're going to watch. That's the game they're going to show their guys. Like, watch this. Watch what speed and athleticism and pace can potentially do if we meet this Lakers team. All right, I want to do a special gimmick here, and it's going to be brought to you by. Workday. Are you a forward thinker? Then you need an HR and finance platform that thinks like you do. Workday. The AI platform that helps propel your organization, your workforce and your entire industry into the future. I wish we could use it for the NBA draft in the best possible way, because that's what we're about to talk about. Workday. Moving business forward. Forever. All right, so this is a no prep segment. I did not do prep for it either. I just thought of it last night watching Bouzelis, who I really, really, really like, and I was just like instant right now. Blink test, redraft. Let's do a top eight. No, no prep whatsoever. Just top eight. Gut feeling. My one would still be Castle. Would your one still be Castle or is there anyone in this draft you like more than him?
- [11:32]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I'm not ready to put Castle one, even though I know he's rookie of the year. And there's just a toughness and maturity to his game that feels like a really good bet as far as the floor. But I like what I've seen from recesses, so I still think he's number one.
- [11:49]
Bill Simmons
Interesting. Okay. Would it make the case for Reesachet because he's stumbled a little and now it's. Now it's coming back a lot, I think.
- [11:57]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Which I think is to be expected. There are just nights where I see him in his activity. I think what you always worry about with somebody who's just still an unknown is like, is he going to be overwhelmed by all this stuff physically? Is he just going to sit in the corner? Because, I mean, look, even when you did the draft tape of him, there was plenty of games. You're like, is this guy just going to sit in the corner? Like, what the hell's going on here? And it's not like I was watching 20 full games of him before the draft, but it was pretty clear early on that his, his comfort level was a little bit higher despite, you know, his physical disadvantages. And I just think at that size and that kind of shot making, there's a. That's the reason why that guy goes number one. And that's why even through a rookie season, there'd still be a lot of teams who'd be like, give me the ceiling of that guy. Not just his spot up ability, but off the dribble at that size. And yeah, I mean, it's overused, but he appears to get it in a way that you hope when you're drafting somebody this high, like, okay, like, you know, there's certain guys that come in and immediately, you know, like, oh, and I don't have any of those concerns when I watch him. So I, I don't like. Even if Castle would probably be the popular pick and maybe everybody's right. Do you understand the ceiling part of it for his size and shooting?
- [13:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [13:08]
Ryan Rosillo
That Castle doesn't have. Right.
- [13:10]
Bill Simmons
I had, I had him in the blink test, no prep. He. He was number two to me, and I just like Castle a little more because I can see him as a top three guy on a contender down the road. Reese Sachet, probably the hoops IQ's there. I like that he's always moving. He's not like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just going to stand over here. Like, he moves. If there's. If they'll get it. If they get a rebound, he'll take off. Like, he'll try to get. He'll think, like, oh, maybe if I bust my ass on this, I'll get the ball and I'll be able to get a dunk. I don't think Trey. I think Trey's both fun to play with sometimes and then really not fun to play with other times. But he seems like he's getting better. So I would have him. I'd have him second. And I think that's a pretty good pick for them. Where this gets interesting is the third pick, because I think those are clearly 1, 2. I would have Castle first. You'd have Reese's Shay first, but I think that's the one, too. But the third, from what you've seen, who would you take?
- [14:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Whoa. I think this is where it gets hard. Well, you were probably driving home thinking Bezealis last night, am I right?
- [14:14]
Bill Simmons
But I also saw SAR a week ago, and I'm like, jesus Christ. This guy's Serge Ibacco with three point range. Like this set. This looks great. But I look, I've watched Pizzellas on TV a few times. Like, really, like, watch. I actually like watching the Bulls. Full confession. I was excited to see him in person last night and of course, just randomly saw the best game he could possibly have. I don't really know what he's missing from that position because he can shoot. I like his stroke. He goes to the basket. He's really athletic. And there's a little bit of a fuck you to him that I really saw for four quarters last night. Like, he's not afraid. He's. It's a little feisty. And I just could clearly see. I see what he is for the next 10 years, and I think they nailed that pick. So for me, it's either SAR or him for that third spot. And I'd probably lean toward Bozellas.
- [15:10]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I guess that's the SAR part of it is he's just getting so many more opportunities because they don't care. But through the last four months, he shot it really well from three and he takes those threes. I do worry a little bit at times when I've watched the Wizards where if it's a close game, you know, I don't know that they really care. And I'm like, hey, Sar is going to get into his bag and pull up, right. But he also might think, like, if I don't shoot it, Jordan Poole's just going to shoot it, so I might as well do this. So, you know, I think always the fear is whenever you're drafting kind of these unknowns and even Risa Shea, when we were doing the draft, I was like, this is just crazy when you think about this draft, like somebody like this is going number one overall. But then it was, you know, right back to the argument of Sar or Reed shepherd, who can't even get minutes with Houston right now, who I think if Reed were playing somewhere that didn't care, we would probably still be leaning shepherd third.
- [16:00]
Bill Simmons
Right. If he was like the Wizards point guard instead of Jordan Pool.
- [16:04]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, whatever team like Buzzellas is just not going to have. Buzzellas is just not going to have the opportunities that Saar has. And Sar's rebounding three point shooting like I've talked about, he's really only had one bad month with, with all of this. You know, it wasn't a great start, but as you could say the same thing for recess. I mean, recesses shot him really, really well now the entire second half of the season. So I'll still go Sar third, because just at that size and that shooting and how much. I personally think that like you're a completely different team when you have a five out center, when you have somebody that can stretch the floor, you know, a couple years down the road, projecting what you can do in the playoffs. I think it just opens a lot of stuff up. Like as much as we all like what the Clippers have done that went against the Cavs, like I kind of get back to as great as Zoo is and we all appreciate him. Does it kind of limit your looks when you don't have a guy that can stretch at the 5? And Sar is that is the hope is that they drafted somebody like that that can play defense. He runs really well. I mean, he runs the floor all night long. And I think that was. That's why that guy went too. Even if it was really choppy watching him, he took the shots, which I guess is. Is good. But now he's hitting him enough to justify like four to Five attempts a game.
- [17:17]
Bill Simmons
You know, I trust Joe House on hoops. If he's actually watching as much as anyone in my life. And this is.
- [17:23]
Ryan Rosillo
He's been really good. I want to back you up on that. Over the years, the text thread, when he has a very specific wizard's observation, it's usually always on.
- [17:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah. And this has been the case since the late 80s. And I think he was more afraid of the bus potential with SAR than anybody. And he's been saying all year like he likes them, isn't positive what he is ultimately, but there's definitely some Abaca stuff in there. And he's not afraid to shoot and his stroke's pretty good. And you can kind of see what he is like he was drafted as a stretch five. If they were lucky enough to get Flag in the draft, you put him like, SAR would be the ideal guy to put Flag next to. I would say with those two together, so feels like they have something. All right, so you go sar3, bouzelis4. And I would go buzzelis3, sar4. It sounds like.
- [18:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, that's what it sounds like. I mean, at some point here, we have to mention Khalil Ware.
- [18:18]
Bill Simmons
Well, I thought the guy we haven't mentioned yet is McCain, who got hurt and was looking like the most ready rookie and his only. I don't even know if he's 20 yet, but I think from what we saw from McCain before he got hurt, I. I might take him above Reed because I know Reed's not playing and I know it's not his fault, and I know it's probably not a great situation for him, but I also think it's weird that he's not playing. I thought it's not like Houston does need him, and they had a stretch where Van Vuitt was out for a few weeks and he still wasn't really playing. And maybe he's just a guy that needs big minutes and isn't capable of coming off the bench and playing 15. But I promise you, they thought they were getting a little more from him this year than this with the shooting, you know, that's fine.
- [19:05]
Ryan Rosillo
And when he, when he finally got minutes, that one game where he was really decisive and you could just see all the special stuff with him, that he is a really good athlete. And then when he was coming off the screen, it was actually a little bit like Bronnie in that Bucks game, where it's like, okay, well, if he's going to be decisive. Yeah, like, I didn't. I didn't Ever expect to see this? And maybe it's being decisive. Like, you can't just throw away all of Bronnie's attempts and say, oh, they were down 30. Like, who cares if he's decisive? Because he was decisive earlier in the game. But Reed had that game where he went off and you could tell he was reading how they were playing him coming off the screen, where I think when you're a young player, you're not getting any minutes. You're not even, like, looking at that stuff. You're just going, all right, you know, what's the read? And should I just get rid of this ball? He was really good with that. I also can see it as an eme thing where young guard, I'm just going to beat you up here.
- [19:58]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. You're not playing defense nearly at the level I want to be at. So you're just not going to play. Sorry.
- [20:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And they're fighting for playoff seating throughout all this. McCain is 21 and they're winning. 21.
- [20:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [20:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Reads, reads. 21 this summer. So, you know, a lot of these guys, they come in a little bit older now, but, yeah, I think I'd still go shepherd just because of the shot making. But McCain, you're right. I mean, it was the only good story of the Sixers all year long. Like, I guess I just don't feel like in March after the draft of saying the only guys that produced have to be ahead of all of the prospects that aren't even getting opportunities and just be shuffling it based on shot attempts.
- [20:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'm saying it more from. I just loved what McCain was doing when he was playing. I see what he is. He's a combo guard.
- [20:44]
Ryan Rosillo
So you would take him fifth. You might be right, by the way. So this is.
- [20:47]
Bill Simmons
I don't know if either of us are necessarily even. Right. But I think I would take him right now over, over read. But I think it's close. And then after that, we move into this. You got Bub Carrington, you got Jalen Wells, the kid on Memphis. Edie's still there. Ware is still around.
- [21:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Eve's Mecy.
- [21:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Mece on New Orleans, Ron Holland, the fight starter, and then Clingan, I think would be kind of the next group. And then it becomes a question of what do you like Quinton Post? Quintin Post. Shannon's out there. It's a weird, fun draft, but I think if. If we're looking at who has the best chance to be really good coming out of this draft, I think we hit the top six. Right. Is there anybody else?
- [21:35]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I think what's really interesting is how early the Dalton connect story was. Are you kidding me? Right? They got this guy at 17 and the fact that they traded him that soon.
- [21:47]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [21:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Is alarming. That they were like, we're good now. You could argue, hey, it was Mark Williams. Mark Williams Version 2.0 has been better. We know the injury history with him.
- [21:59]
Bill Simmons
They should have still made the trade.
- [22:02]
Ryan Rosillo
And their need and thinking, okay, well they've added Luka. Like there's a glaring need. Can you really make it through the playoffs with Jackson Hayes. But Jackson's life is entirely better now because you're playing with somebody like Luka and it's just like, look, just show defensively, attack at the rim, run the floor all night.
- [22:18]
Bill Simmons
He doesn't rebound though. You can see it last night. Like he's, he's great at alley. Oops. He kind of knows where to go and what to do.
- [22:24]
Ryan Rosillo
But the fact that he's turned into somebody who might be a backup for a long time though is a complete win considering how lost he had looked for multiple seasons. But I, I think back to the connect point is those first few months and right. You know, he's a mess on defense and yes, he's older because of his college travels, but it's like, I can't believe this guy got him at 17. Are we sitting here at the end of the year thinking he actually probably went based on the names you've already listed here. We hadn't even gotten to him that he kind of went in the range that you would still put him in today?
- [22:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he's definitely, I would say, you know, like he's after where there was a three week stretch where it seemed idiotic that Miami didn't take Connect and that they took wear over him and now I think, you know, it's, it's also not like Miami's playing well. The one that's, I think the most polarizing with different people I've talked to is Clingan. Whether this is just kind of who he is, a guy who can box some shots, who's a little slow, doesn't really have any offense, or whether this is somebody that could potentially be the anchor of a really good team. And I think the fact that he's getting actual minutes for them and they've been a good basketball team for, you know, two plus months here and really competitive and I, I think he's a piece. I feel the same way about Edie. I don't Know if they're ever, you know, one of the four best guys on an awesome team. Probably not, but could they be in an eight man rotation on a really good team? I think they could.
- [23:50]
Ryan Rosillo
The clinging thing feels a little tough just because when you look at Portland and the number of guys out there that want to shoot Sharp should be shooting. You know, Simons is somebody that still bails him out of a lot of possessions. Denny's going to get his shots. You know, Scoot isn't shooting. You know, it's. Nobody wants to be Chris Paul. Their second season of their career.
- [24:14]
Bill Simmons
Well, it's tough when you're playing with Denny and Denny all of a sudden turns into Larry Bird. In the last six weeks when he looks like he's doing an 85 bird impersonation. It's unbelievable how good he is. Even he's saying like, I've never played this well in my life. I don't know what's happening.
- [24:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Banton had that stretch last year post Boston where it's like, man, this guy can actually really score, you know? Yeah, he couldn't crack the rotation for Boston. And then you'll watch him where I don't think anybody gets happier when the game clock is with the shot clock off. Band's like awesome. Like now I, I don't have to pass this to anybody. So Clingan's in a really tough spot as far as like, you know, he might be the sixth best option when he's playing on the court. Yeah. Offensively for them. So it, it look, I think the considering like it went from could he go number one to then he goes seven, you know, being stuck behind eight and Rob Williams update. He's got three to four weeks.
- [25:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Just assume he's not playing.
- [25:13]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, right.
- [25:14]
Bill Simmons
If you see him, it's like a bonus. It's like, oh, there he is.
- [25:18]
Ryan Rosillo
When did Portland get this guy? I know what you're saying, like you'd like to see some higher like ceiling moments from him offensively. But I, I don't know that it's entirely fair to like, oh, you know, this might. But maybe those guys are right because I, I hear it too. Like, this is. You guys were nuts. He wasn't this good. This is why he went where he went. And you know, he's, he's a rotational big that they took this high and you're like, man, that'll suck.
- [25:44]
Bill Simmons
And so really it's a six and then it's kind of, let's see, depends on who you like. But we should Talk about Ron Holland for a split second. Who was the fifth pick in the draft. Yeah, he is still 19 years old. He carries himself like he's 32. They throw him out there. Like he plays real minutes every game. Sometimes he's pretty good. Sometimes he'll make some shots. He's physical. He's a little early era. And I don't mean this in a melee standpoint. Ron Artestish, like, actually reminds me of Ron Artest. Hopefully he won't go charging in a row, three at some point in his career. But they took him pretty high and you know, I'm not against it. They took him fifth overall. We don't have him in our top six, but I don't. Wouldn't rule him out, would you? We'll see. He's 19.
- [26:41]
Ryan Rosillo
No, but unfortunately the scattering report tracks on him. You know, he had some okay, months as far as shooting, but he's also shot at 11% from 3. He shot at 15 from 3. Yeah, that's in March. March. He's at 7% now. He's not really taking them as much anymore. I actually think that's like one of the funniest things about young perimeter players. And they come in, they're like, hey, you can't shoot. And it's like, well, time to learn NBA games. And they just start taking threes because everybody just takes threes. And then you can see it get to some guys where you go, hey, maybe you shouldn't be taking even three a game. So the percentages are even worse now because he's taking even less of them. But I'm with you. I love the aggression and that's what you saw before the draft. There is a no nonsense part of him. Isaiah Stewart, I don't know if that's the best teammate for him to have or the worst teammate for him to have.
- [27:33]
Bill Simmons
He's definitely going to be going in this. In into the other bench.
- [27:36]
Ryan Rosillo
For the bench.
- [27:36]
Bill Simmons
Clear bra. He'll be the first guy behind him.
- [27:38]
Ryan Rosillo
But Detroit, you know, has spacing around Cade and that's what's opened up Cade. They defend, they shoot. So the Holland minutes, I'll admit, like, I, I love the aggression that drives the body size of like mixing it up with guys and like there's never a moment of him where he's like deferring at the rim, like he's trying to go for it. But, you know, there's no way he's closing with the Pistons, I would imagine in a playoff game because he's just not going to provide any spacing. Like everybody imagine in a playoff series how he would be defended. Like it just means there's another guy in cave.
- [28:12]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he'll, he'll, they'll throw him out for little five minute stretches. But yeah, I think the playoffs will be a little different. How many minutes do you think Ron Art Test played as a rookie in the 2000 Bulls?
- [28:24]
Ryan Rosillo
Like 8 a game.
- [28:26]
Bill Simmons
31.1.
- [28:27]
Ryan Rosillo
Wait, he did as a rookie?
- [28:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [28:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, I was thinking Jimmy Butler. My bad.
- [28:32]
Bill Simmons
No, I, I would have said eight a game. Yeah, he was 31.3.
- [28:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Cause I loved him so much at St. John's that I don't remember playing that.
- [28:41]
Bill Simmons
But I also, I didn't have league pass that year. So I can't say the 2000 bulls were on my TV a lot that year. But yeah, he, and he couldn't shoot either. There's same size. He reminds me of him a little bit. Any Bub Carrington thoughts before we move on?
- [28:54]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I like Bub a lot.
- [28:58]
Bill Simmons
Kaishan George.
- [29:00]
Ryan Rosillo
A lot of size. A lot of size for a perimeter guy.
- [29:04]
Bill Simmons
Quinton Post could have like a 12 year career.
- [29:10]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean incredible, incredible scouting job. And now he's the performer.
- [29:14]
Bill Simmons
52Nd pick. Collier had a couple moments on Utah. He, he like, he was like averaging 7, 8 assists a game for like a month.
- [29:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I, I think he has a really nice handle, drive combination stuff with him. But, but Utah has all like. It's another group of guys that all just think, you know, it's just a.
- [29:41]
Bill Simmons
Pickup game that never ends with the Utah Jazz just. It's exactly 15 guys not knowing if they're getting run. Who knows, we'll see how long Will Hardy enjoys that and Dillingham just doesn't play. Shannon Jr. Had some fun moments when people were out and then talk to me about your, your Charlotte guy that you loved.
- [30:00]
Ryan Rosillo
Salon. It's kind of a mess.
- [30:03]
Bill Simmons
But you were expecting that.
- [30:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [30:06]
Bill Simmons
In retrospect six might have been a whiff too high for him.
- [30:12]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean he just like, you know when he's out there. So we'll, we'll at least give him that. But you know, there's just a lot.
- [30:22]
Bill Simmons
Of running around, you know, when he's out there is not a compliment.
- [30:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, I think it is.
- [30:29]
Bill Simmons
I, I think Boozel is falling to 11 is probably like looking back at the draft. Who knows with all these dudes. They're all like babies basically. But um, that's the one that I think is going to seem weird down the road. McCain. Whatever. We. We knew that McCain was falling too far as it was happening. But Bazellas, like, a team like Charlotte, that would have been a really nice pick for them, you know?
- [30:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, the knock was. He couldn't shoot. He shot it better. In the first half of the season, as he's played more minutes, he shot it worse, but strokes there. But I would say he. Yeah, I. I don't know. Look, you don't have to listen to me. You can listen to scouts. Because whenever you first started watching him, I mean, if there was an end one mixtape, and that's all you were allowed to look at, he's the number one pick in the draft. Okay? So the more you watched him, and scouts are like, we've been waiting for this guy to shoot for years, and he's never really been able to shoot it. But it wasn't just the dunk that he had on the baseline. Luca, last night, there was another play later in the game where, you know, it's just really smart, like that secondary cut, which, again, if you're playing with Giddey, like, Giddy's one of those players. It's like, if you just stay active in the possession, if you just keep thinking that there's an option for you, you're going to be rewarded. And he had a cut off the left side on a Giddy drive on the right side, where he was. He was rewarded for staying active. And at that point, too, like the Lakers.
- [31:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that whole team moves, though. It's really like that team is like, if I move, I might get.
- [31:52]
Ryan Rosillo
God, you love the Bulls.
- [31:53]
Bill Simmons
I did. I re. I really did. I thought, look, it was the perfect opponent for them, but I've liked that. I mean, what have they won, like, seven of the last night? And they've been on my radar for a couple of weeks here because I've been trying to figure out playing stuff, and I've been scouting some teams. Watching Miami just on the cruise ship to hell and just thinking, like, could any. Watching Atlanta a little bit. Could anybody, you know, emerge and be a possible seven seed in a team that's playing the Celtics? And I think the. If the. The Bulls got the seven seed and played the Celtics, the Celtics would beat them. But that's not a fun series. And those guys will be running gun. Go, go, go. The whole time. I don't love it.
- [32:30]
Ryan Rosillo
You're nuts.
- [32:32]
Bill Simmons
I'm just saying it's not a fun series. I'm not saying the Celtics would lose. I just. I don't like playing teams with Gimmicks. That are really confident in their gimmick.
- [32:44]
Ryan Rosillo
They're 31 and 40.
- [32:46]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I know. What are they, like eight of their last 10? Some are in their last nine, something like that. Would you rather they traded lavine and they're playing better now. Yeah. And by the way, your guy who you sold your stock on a couple years ago, Red Velvet, you called the broker and like, just unload it. Just get rid of it.
- [33:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Did I?
- [33:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, just get rid of it. I don't want it.
- [33:09]
Ryan Rosillo
I thought we did a role play of that where I was like, we're still in.
- [33:13]
Bill Simmons
Maybe you're still in. I don't know. In my head, I sold it.
- [33:17]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't remember.
- [33:17]
Bill Simmons
I certainly haven't heard you talking about him that much. But Red Velvet seemed a little back.
- [33:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Our pod got a little too white. We had a stretch there where I was like, dude, can you. Do you guys want Doug McDermott? And I was like, yeah, I love Doug McDermott. Let's have them on. And they're like, you heard her, by the way.
- [33:33]
Bill Simmons
Six white guys started the game last night. Six of the ten. My wife, just because I brought my wife. And she's like, is this unusual? She was stunned.
- [33:43]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm telling you, man, things are changing.
- [33:45]
Bill Simmons
I've been. I've been telling Van a lot. We're coming back flag. We're coming back.
- [33:52]
Ryan Rosillo
That Best Buy ad with that rapper, that woman with Buster, and then they went to her.
- [33:57]
Bill Simmons
Thanks again to Workday for sponsoring that segment. I had a good time. Learn more@workday.com we're going to take a break and come back with more basketball. Hey, let me tell you about one of my favorite bets that Fanduel has right now. Player performance doubles. We do them on Tuesdays. Two leg parlays already made for you. Say you think Luca is going to score 30 and the Lakers are going to win in a game. Well, now you can bet on that because fanduel will take a player prop, add it with that player's team to win. And then on top of it, Fando is giving all customers a profit boost token exclusively for those bets on Tuesday that you can use, head to fando.com BS and you get your profit boost. I'm also going to be tweeting my pick on Tuesday. My favorite player slash team prop win matchup. A player performance double. And you can make every Moment more with FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook must be 21 + and President in select states or 18 + and President D.C. opt in required bonus issued adjudom withdrawal but profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wage or amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com, gamma problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra we are getting close to the NBA Playoffs, which means we are getting close to the NBA Finals. One of my favorite sporting events. Not just because it's really fun basketball at the highest possible level, but all the historical legacy stuff. It's my favorite. You've heard me talk about it on the podcast many times. Speaking of finals, Michelob Ultra has given you the chance to win tickets to the NBA Finals, which I hope Boston is a part of. Not only do they make a superior beer, they're also helping fans like you get closer to the game. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Check out michelobaltra.com NBAFinals to enter for a chance to win tickets. Michelob Ultra Courtside NBA Finals Sweepstakes no purchase necessary. Open to US residents, excluding Maryland residents 21 and up ends on May 5, 2025. See Official Rules@MyClobeulture.com Rules for Price and detail, message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. Other topic before we do our sliding doors thing is the Cavs lose four in a row and Mitchell I was saying last week on this podcast to you first team all NBA was in Pennsylvania and the Mitchell the second half of the year stats for him are bad. The Cavs tailing off a little bit where they're not going to be the best team in the league. OKC is going to take that spot now and is that Mitchell spot open for you for top five MVP and then first team all NBA.
- [36:42]
Ryan Rosillo
All right, make your first all first team NBA case because I was a little thrown off by this last night because then I did the work this morning and I'm actually kind of fascinated to know what your your group in this.
- [36:53]
Bill Simmons
So Mitchell on the best team in the east have a chance to win in the mid to high 60s. 24 points a game 4 and 5 44% 37 from 3. He's played 10 plus 10.9 net, only playing 31.4 minutes a game which is not his fault. We always talk about in all NBA you can't penalize team guys because their teams are kicking ass and they're not playing fourth quarters. But in the second half of the season since the all star break, I think he's shooting 30% from three eye test wise hasn't looked as. As, oh, I can when I want, I'll snap my fingers. I'll take this game over for you. That hasn't been happening the same way. And Edwards is playing really well. And Edwards would be the guy if you're going to say who's taking the spot.
- [37:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Edwards, that was the only guy I could come up with. Like, you didn't tell me who you were suggesting as another alternative to Mitchell. And I was like, I'm at a loss because obviously it's not Brunson with the games thing. Luca clearly isn't even close in the games part of it. As much as we all love Steph, he's not first team this year. So Ant is the only one that I could come out.
- [37:56]
Bill Simmons
Ant the only one. Ant's up to 28 a game. He's shooting 40% from three. Taking a ton of threes he's got. He's going to lead the league in threes this year, which is unbelievable. Curry leading the league in threes was always the safest bet in the world. He's going to end up with over 300 threes and over 500 free throw attempts. They're plus 4.2 net. When he plays, he plays, which I think is really important. Doesn't miss games ever. And he is a excellent defensive player. And Minnesota's playing better. And Minnesota, I think, has a chance to be in the 49 to 50 win range coming off a summer where they made, you know, a really, really impactful, huge trade, you know, that they. That took a while for them to figure out what their team was. Then Randle got hurt. DeFincenzo missed some time. Conley looked like he was dead the first six weeks of the season. And they've rounded into a team that I think at least is in the conversation for. Hey, if somebody could have a puncher's chance of beating OKC, who is it? So I think if the last 12 games, I guess the point would be Mitchell doesn't have this lockdown anymore. And there's a world where Edwards could steal this from him.
- [39:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Sometimes with these two, it's just you're so determined to already go with it that you have to be like talked out to an irrational sense of getting you to change your mind when. If you just break down the counting stats, it's very close. If you go to the metrics, they're pretty close. I mean, there's a couple things that favor Mitchell.
- [39:26]
Bill Simmons
Net rating is the big one.
- [39:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think the one that would really still keep it with Mitchell is that especially for the voters is that it's the best team in the east and he's considered by most of the models the most impactful single player on the expected points added stuff. So he's the most important guy on that team whereas Edwards is the most important guy in his team. But like look, I'm again reminding everybody off of last week in the MVP conversation when I you guys you that.
- [39:56]
Bill Simmons
I'm not you guys me.
- [39:57]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I use guys. I did it. I did. And I'm, you know, I'm not ashamed of him. I'm glad we kept it in, didn't edit it out, but that wasn't bad.
- [40:08]
Bill Simmons
Here's the thing, the thing, I'm just surprised.
- [40:10]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm surprised that you're bringing it up considering I think it's going to factor in your SGA Jokic stuff.
- [40:15]
Bill Simmons
No, I would still have Mitchell first team. I was just surprised that we're not done yet. And I've said this in years past, I think the counting stats get tough sometimes when somebody is sacrificing to be in an awesome team. Mitchell could clearly score 28 a game if he wanted to. Yeah. And he the stats are what they are because this is the best way for his team to win. He's also playing less minutes. I still feel like in the right game, in the right situation, he's toe to toe against anybody else you could throw out there. He's the least afraid guy. He's the guy they need the most and that's why he still has the spot. But I do think Edwards is as is, at least in the ballpark now, potentially stealing it. The thing I kept coming back to is if you just switch these guys this season, is Cleveland better or worse? And I actually don't think they'd be better with a young Edwards still feeling himself out trying to decide how good he is as a player. If you just threw him into what they have, I think he's still figuring out his individual stuff a little bit and I think that would have probably hurt them a tiny bit. Whereas Mitchell knows who he is. He's been in the league long enough. He knows what his ceiling is as a player and he's able to sacrifice a little because he knows it's the best for the team. I'm not sure that's Edwards yet, but you can make a case if you flip them the other way. Maybe Minnesota is not as good with Mitchell because they lose the two way stuff with Ant and They lose some of the swagger and some of the other stuff he brings to the table. So it's a fun combo, at least.
- [41:48]
Ryan Rosillo
We did a version of this with Ceruti on my pod this week when just like, who would you rather have? And it wasn't long term. It was just kind of like right now to close out the season, which is, you know, look, it's not the most original gimmick, but it's kind of interesting. But he went with. He'd rather have Mitchell now and through the rest of the season. I would. I would rather have Ant. I would rather have him because of the defense. But I think there's also a part of this where you could criticize Ant a little for, like, does he bring it defensively every single night? His top version of his defense is better than the top version of Mitchell's defense. And that could be as simple as just being a size. I mean, is as athletic as Mitchell is. I mean, it sounds crazy to suggest you prefer somebody else's athleticism over Donovan Mitchell, but Ants, that guy I would.
- [42:32]
Bill Simmons
Put Ant for, if he really cares for three minutes, he's way, way, way, way up there with, like, the best guys in the league when he really cares. If it's like, Ant, we need you to shut this guy down, I would trust him.
- [42:48]
Ryan Rosillo
We've seen it.
- [42:48]
Bill Simmons
We've seen it.
- [42:49]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [42:50]
Bill Simmons
And he loves it, too. He really, like, gets a rush out of doing it. So that's the thing. It's just he has such a responsibility on the other end. I think he's got to pick his spots.
- [43:00]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [43:01]
Bill Simmons
I don't.
- [43:01]
Ryan Rosillo
I know what you're saying about, like, Ant in the maturing part of this is Mitchell gone through enough playoff seasoning that this is a better version of him, of dialing him down a little bit. But I'd say even with the way Ant handled the Cat stuff, handles the Rudy stuff, that he actually shows kind of a teammate maturity.
- [43:19]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [43:20]
Ryan Rosillo
And as far as shot selection and some of that stuff, I think they've been so bad at times this year on offense. And you're right. They're rounding in a form. And I know, like, look, they lost to Zion because Zion went crazy. They lost to the Pacers in that weird game because Obi Toppin couldn't miss from three hits. That ridiculous three in the corner. Cause I was watching that game going.
- [43:38]
Bill Simmons
That was like a. That was like a mid-80s bird three when he would, like, fall into the stands. That was one of the worst threes I've Seen anyone take this year. And he fucking drained it.
- [43:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, he has.
- [43:47]
Bill Simmons
Awesome.
- [43:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, that was, that was a really fun game. So you're like, oh, how do they lose to these guys? It's like, well, you know, lucky enough like having Zion, like Zion's now appointment TV again because it's so much fun. So I was like, all right, I really want to kind of see this game. So I was, I was in whatever my mode of watching and picking who I wanted to watch. I watched those two games after Minnesota looked like they had figured some stuff out here.
- [44:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [44:09]
Ryan Rosillo
And so I don't like. It's kind of. I want to get to the Cleveland losses in a second here too, because you could kind of go like, what the hell is going on with these teams? And in Minnesota, like, at least that one's kind of explainable for those two losses. And I think some of the Ant stuff, at least because the three point shooting has been incredible. It's 40% of the season all season long. But you can tell how incredibly frustrated he has been at times facing all the double teams, trying to figure out like, who are the guys that I want to throw it to. Like, I know Randall's going to score. Nobody want to pass it to Rudy Conley doesn't really shoot. DiVincenzo was a mess. Nas kind of hit or miss. I really like what Jaden has been for a long stretch here. I think he's just been a more aggressive.
- [44:52]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, super aggressive.
- [44:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Feel like way more comfortable him having the ball now probably at any point in his career. So even if there's some metrics that say like defensively, because I was looking at it this morning, like Mitchell and Ant are both kind of negatives on the box score defensively, that's, that's, you know, I don't know. Some of the defensive stats I kind of give up. But if something like if there's a player who I don't like on defense and I see for seven straight years of his career he's a net negative on defense and the team isn't always a disaster, that's usually pretty telling there. But I don't know where Ant was ever going to find his rest when he was sitting there trying to carry this team through all those dark days. So him not being locked in defensively, like, it actually makes a little bit more sense for him. But I would still have Mitchell first team, I think is.
- [45:36]
Bill Simmons
Is how I would too. I just. Three weeks left. It's. It's not open and shut yet. You mentioned one Thing with Ant, that I, I think is a really good point, when he would get frustrated with how teams were defending him, which I always thought was amusing, where he's like, come on, guys, just, let's, let's play this. Let's just play this like men. You know, it's kind of his attitude. And you could see him get visibly pissed. So all the smart teams are like, if we do this, he's going to fucking melt down. He hates when teams do this. He's not at that point in his career yet where he's like, oh, they're going to do this, then we'll do this. He's still taking it like, personally. That team's playing this way. That, that's like, why can't. Why can't. It's almost like a UFC fighter. Like, why can't we just stand in the middle of the ring and just throw punches? Why are you doing. Why are you doing this fucking ground game? Shit, let's go. Let's go. In the middle of ring. And by the way, Mitchell, whereas Mitchell knows who he is.
- [46:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but Mitchell also was passing to Garland or shooting options or Mobley or Allen, who are all nice. Like, he has bigs he can pass the ball to.
- [46:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [46:38]
Ryan Rosillo
And you know, Randall, depending on the night, you know, is. I'm trying to be nice here. You know, he's an option and his passing is really good. But there's also times too with Randall when it's bad. You just know what's going to happen. Like the possession is going to stop. Everybody's going to watch. You're going to see what happens. And you know, it's. That's not always a blast. So Mitchell, I would imagine would be just as frustrated as Ant was. But the Cleveland stretch for this thing, I, I know that you're not doing it because they've lost three in a row. Orlando coming back and winning that game.
- [47:08]
Bill Simmons
Four in a row.
- [47:09]
Ryan Rosillo
But I. What'd I just say? Three. Yeah, you're right.
- [47:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, four in a row.
- [47:12]
Ryan Rosillo
Orlando.
- [47:13]
Bill Simmons
Well, we came on after that Orlando game. We were upset.
- [47:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Sacramento or Sacramento, Phoenix.
- [47:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, we were upset that they. The streak was over because we had a whole bunch of Cleveland stuff we were gonna do. And then Orlando played really well and Cleveland just missed shots. They, they. And it was like, oh, man, you have those games in the NBA where shots don't go in, then they go to the Clippers. And the Clippers just played awesome. Like, if you, if you're ever going to talk yourself into the Clippers, are A true contender for 25. That's the game to go. And watch the tape of. Everybody looks good. Kawhi looks great.
- [47:47]
Ryan Rosillo
They were incredible in that game.
- [47:49]
Bill Simmons
Kawhi is the best guy on the floor. Like, it was like, Jesus and Mobley played really well in that game and it didn't really matter. It's like, all right, well, that's the best the Clips can do. Took them by surprise. Then they go to Sacramento and they lose that one, too. And then the one, the next one was the Suns. And the Suns are like, look, we. We keep waiting for you guys to bring Dr. Kevorkian in and put us down. And nobody's put us down, so who knows? And then KD plays awesome in that game. So there are four losses that I guess if you took them one at a time, that kind of made sense. But the points they gave up, they gave up one third to the Clippers, 123 to the Kings and 123 to the Suns. And that is not good. Rosello, Nope.
- [48:34]
Ryan Rosillo
And the Suns, who we started last Sunday with after that Lakers loss, they smoked the Raptors. They beat your Bulls. And of all the Cavs losses, that was the most alarming one, the Orlando one. Again, still shocked that they came back in the fourth quarter. When you're looking at Orlando's offense, the Clippers game, the Clippers played so well that you just go, okay, you know, throw it out.
- [48:59]
Bill Simmons
Sacramento's weird. Like, whatever.
- [49:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I don't know. Sacramento wasn't great. Like, I know they didn't have Darius Garland in that game and they didn't have Mobley for the Orlando game, but Sacramento's down Sabonis, they're down Levine, which is, you know, kind of a hit or miss anyway. It's like, would you rather play them with Levine? So. Right. DeRozan was terrific at the end of that one. I thought the last Phenix game was the one with Cleveland. We were like, what are you guys doing? Like, you've just lost three in a row. And the effort, especially in that third quarter, the rebounding stuff, like, if you go through it like, none of these stats mean anything because it's only four games. But the Cavs, of all teams in this four game stretch, they're 27th on defense, not who they are, 13th on offense, whatever. They're 29th out of 30 teams in rebounding this week. The Cavs and granted, Zoo had 20 and Mobley had three.
- [49:45]
Bill Simmons
Zoo demolished them, Just killed them like that. And that's a guy that you would Think the Cavs would be pretty well equipped to face. By the way, we should mention we're recording all this before they play Utah today, and they might be able to get back on the horse. I was alarmed by a different thing in that Suns game, that if you're just projecting, what does this streak mean? And then what does it mean going forward when they play Boston? Whenever they play Boston, they couldn't stop Durant. They couldn't stop him. And if as a Celtics fan, when I look at the Cavs and think of, like, how the matchups could favor the Cavs, how the matchups could favor Boston, ultimately it comes down to Tatum. Can they slow down Tatum? Can they stop him? A big six nine point forward who has the ball. And that's why they traded for DeAndre Hunter. That's why they have to play a Coral, even though they probably don't love playing the minutes they have. But that's why Streuss becomes an issue when it's a bigger team with wings, like what Boston has. I watched that game. I'm like, durant, I thought that was the best game I've seen him play all year. And he was really, really engaged. I think he took 29 shots. He was like 17 for 29. But if you're Boston, you watch that game and you're like, this is the Tatum window in a series with these guys. Can they stop him? I don't know if they can.
- [51:01]
Ryan Rosillo
That was one of those games where I wasn't watching it live and I knew I wanted to go back to especially once they had lost. So I was like, okay, I want to watch this one tonight. And then it was like Durant had 19 in the third quarter. Like, what happened? So then it's like, okay, we'll make sure we get all this. And that was the smoothest. You're counting it up. And then at one point, I think it's 11 or 12, and like, how is he going to get to 19? It's like, oh, he's just going to make everything else to close out this third quarter. I did hear some of the defensive player stuff about Mobley in that one. And you can get into the switching against DeRozan where he got him twice and look, he got him once and then Mobley played the other one. And like, sometimes DeRozan's just going to make better shots than any kind of defense you can stretch at him. I am. I guess you Donis was knocking him a little bit on the defensive player of the year thing, which just makes Me think that you, Donis is up there making sure people talk about Bam, But Mobley. Durant did not get 19 on Mobley in that third quarter, which I think is important.
- [52:02]
Bill Simmons
No. Well, the other thing is you can kind of find your matchup, the matchup that you want against them. You can do that against any team in the league. And they do, you know, if they have those two guards out there, you're going to try to hunt one of them. Certain teams, like hunting Allen and bringing them out. And I think one of the issues I have with the Cavs, and I don't even know if it's an issue because it'll probably solve itself, but I still. I'm still not positive what their best five is, especially against different matchups. And it might not matter, but I think they need Hunter to be that fifth guy. And he just hasn't been in a lot of big games, you know, and we talked about this last week, he had that huge shot in the corner. It's Orlando, and he decided to backboard with it. You know, if you're guarding Kevin Durant or Jason Tatum, and Hunter has to be the guy, he doesn't have a shitload of reps. I really like that trade for them, but I guess the good thing for them is the schedule's about to get easier. Utah, well, at Portland's not easy anymore. San Antonio home at Detroit, and then they're mostly home the rest of the way.
- [53:02]
Ryan Rosillo
But look, they were 56 and 11 or 56 and 10 when this thing started. They're 56 and 14.
- [53:08]
Bill Simmons
They were two giant win streaks, right?
- [53:10]
Ryan Rosillo
They were 18 and three against the west until this weird stretch. They go out West. It's almost April. Even without a deep playoff run with this group, this is not who it. Who they are. You know, I don't know that you can point to this week if they lose to Boss and be like, oh, see, we knew. And look, I'll leave.
- [53:26]
Bill Simmons
I think that's fair.
- [53:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think against DeRozan and some of the minutes against Durant, like, because I've talked about the Hunter trade too much, but I'll just say it one more time. At least there's an option for a big guy against the Jalen Brown, Tatum, even Derrick White, you know, Drew Holiday thing, because that was four guys that you always felt like, hey, they're going to find somebody against Garland here. Like, no matter what you do, there's going to be a way to attack Garland. And then if you're helping over that now, you're leaving Derek White or you're leaving Drew in the corner or now, you know, obviously Tatum kind of attacks Allen a lot in that last regular season game that they played against each other. So Hunter at least provided some kind of option. So I think he has to be the fifth in that playoff series against Boston, and that's really the only one that matters. I think there's other games where maybe they'll want the spacing of Strus against a different team. May not matter. You know, I don't know how Ty Jerome fits in in closing minutes of a playoff game next to Mitchell and Garland already out there. It seems a bit redundant. So you may not need it. But I could see Streuss closing or even Dean Wade, who's so good defensively, man, like constantly watching him get hunted because he's a white guy.
- [54:32]
Bill Simmons
Like, he's like the Houser thing. It's.
- [54:34]
Ryan Rosillo
He's got Hauseritis, except he's even taller than Hauser is. And you know, he's another guy that provides you some kind of spacing. So if it's a bigger unit. So like, look, we've been over all these different rotation combos I've talked about too many times. But I'll admit on this west coast swing, as I'm excited about the Hunter option for the Cavs, I also see him getting a little too upright. I also look at him like defensively going, am I giving him the benefit of the doubt of some defensive option against.
- [54:58]
Bill Simmons
Just because he's tall?
- [54:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Just because he's. Exactly. Just because he's tall. In reality, like, you can attack him too.
- [55:03]
Bill Simmons
Rossello. This mattered. These, this four really good teams, I don't think lose four games in a row and they have real stakes. And you can see.
- [55:10]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, I don't think it matters at all. I don't think it's.
- [55:12]
Bill Simmons
I think it matters.
- [55:13]
Ryan Rosillo
Here's what.
- [55:13]
Bill Simmons
Can I make the case?
- [55:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, it's your. Yeah, of course. No, you can't.
- [55:18]
Bill Simmons
Well, here's the case. Cause you'd be like, oh, they have the one seed sewn up. No, they, they had a two game lead on OKC for home court in the finals. And home court in the finals matters more than it ever has now because we went back to the 22111. So they had this in their grasp. And I also think one of the reasons I like them is they've been so consistent and so good. And after a while you go, look, man, the numbers are the numbers. This is the best three point shooting team in the league. They're awesome defensively. They're able to hold their own against all these good players. And then they just get smoked in those last three, especially Orlando throwaway. That's a weird game. You know that you're on Sunday, it's early, you think you're going to extend the streak right before you go on the road. But the other ones, they had real trouble against Kawhi and DeRozan and Durant in back to. Back to back. That's a real thing that I think is going to. Ultimately, if you're the Celtics and even if you're the Knicks, you're looking at that and you're like, hey, this is good for us.
- [56:17]
Ryan Rosillo
The Knicks, come on.
- [56:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, if the Knicks. If the Knicks beat the Celtics.
- [56:21]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm sad.
- [56:21]
Bill Simmons
I didn't want to leave them out.
- [56:24]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. But I mean, you know, the standard that you're holding Cleveland to and saying this could be something that's alarming, then you're ignoring all the Knicks stuff. Unless, you know, look, not having Brunson clearly.
- [56:32]
Bill Simmons
Do I think the Knicks are going to be in round three? No, I don't. Yeah, I think Boston's going to beat them. I did. I just didn't want to leave them out because we have New York listeners trying to cater.
- [56:40]
Ryan Rosillo
The Phoenix game was alarming. The Sacramento one, you're supposed to win that one after the two losses already. But it was actually a close game. Like it came down to the final few seconds in that one. So it was an old school.
- [56:49]
Bill Simmons
DeRozan.
- [56:50]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't. I think they've been too good. They put together that absurd streak. We know who the players are. It feels like this is their time. Not saying in their time because like some of the playoff seasoning shit annoys me. Where okc, it's like, well, they haven't done it yet. Okay, well, maybe for okc, their seasoning was just that Dallas series last year.
- [57:10]
Bill Simmons
I think that that matters in that combo. They have done it yet because that was a. That was a really competitive, awesome series. So you can't say they've never been in a situation like that, you know.
- [57:19]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, so we agree.
- [57:20]
Bill Simmons
You at least have to point to that.
- [57:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. You know. Cause I feel like we've always heard it over and over again. It's like, oh, the Pistons had to lose to the Celtics and the Bulls had to lose to the Pistons. And it's just like on and on and on as if it never. Like Golden State was rather new. Maybe their San Antonio series in 14 was enough seasoning for them to get through everything in 15 and the Cavs injuries. But, you know, did Toronto have seasoning or was it just a really good year and then they had injury seasoning?
- [57:49]
Bill Simmons
Shay, I think we're good. I don't think there's a playoff scenario where he can't get every fucking shot he wants in a series. And Chet is the one you'd worry about in a series like this. But Chet got his ass kicked in that Dallas series and if that didn't make him, he came back bigger, stronger. Hartenstein had a bunch of playoff stuff. Like, really the only one that worries me for real is Jalen Williams, just because he's going to have the ball a lot. And what did he learn from that Dallas series? Because it's going to happen again. They're going to just send the two guys at shade. They're going to make Jalen Williams have the ball all the time or Isaiah Joe or whoever it is. How are those guys going to function when they're just like, hey, look, Shay's not beating us in this game. We'll play four on three against you guys. Go ahead, knock yourselves out. And who's going to step up? And that's it.
- [58:37]
Ryan Rosillo
I would expect too, like, even when you watch okc, if teams try to trap sga and sometimes they'll save it, right?
- [58:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [58:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Whoever they play, especially early on, they'll probably just sell out and be like, let's kind of do this. I trust that there's enough playmakers, shot makers and options off of that trap that even if you're slowing SGA down, you're selling out and sacrificing something else that usually in NBA games, if you do it too long, like you can't ever go into a game, be like, this is what we're going to do though. Because then it's like, all right, seriously.
- [59:08]
Bill Simmons
No, but you could mix it up. Right now we're playing 4 on 3. Good at the foul line in that 4 and 3 situation. It is like the all time. That signing was incredible. We got to take a break and then we're doing sliding Doors. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Michelob Ultra. A superior light beer and the ultimate trophy. Win or lose, you're bound to enjoy the ride with a good beer in hand. McGlob ultra crisp, refreshing, only 95 calories. A superior light beer. No matter the game, sport or season, Superior is worth playing for. So sign up for ultra courtside@michelobultra.com courtside and you can enjoy some of these games with nice beer in your hand. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch Michelob Ultra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri must be 21 plus to order alcohol. Alcohol available only in select markets. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. Taxes was waiting and wondering and worrying. It's almost like how in the old days of fantasy football, we used to have to tally the scores on a Monday and then the commissioner would just mail them out to everybody and you'd wait three days to see if you won't. Those were the old ways of doing it. Now taxes is matching with a TurboTax Live full service expert who gives your taxes their undivided attention. They can file your taxes as soon as today. And while they do, you get real time updates on their progress. Meaning you can get back to what's important. The game. Now this IS taxes intuit turbotax get an expert now on turbotax.com all right, gimmick. We almost did last week and then we got so caught up with other stuff we forgot to do. Calling it 2020's sliding doors. The biggest what ifs of the half decade, because it is the half decade. Now we had five years ago was Covid.
- [60:55]
Ryan Rosillo
It's been a good half decade.
- [60:56]
Bill Simmons
Rocky start, but rocky start doing better. And I asked you to write down the biggest what ifs for you from this decade. I wrote down my own list. I'm sure we have a lot of the same stuff. We are not doing this draft style. We're just doing. We can just go back and forth. The biggest things we've seen. What's the biggest sliding door? What if for you in this first five years of this decade, I have.
- [61:20]
Ryan Rosillo
Like 12 of them. You think we'll have time? I have. I'm just kidding.
- [61:23]
Bill Simmons
I have a bunch, too.
- [61:24]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm ready.
- [61:25]
Bill Simmons
I'm ready for however you want to do this.
- [61:26]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I have three because I spent too much time on one, but I. I knew you'd probably have five. All right, so Houston takes Mobley number two instead of Jalen Green in the 21 draft.
- [61:38]
Bill Simmons
Oh, wow, that's a great one. Was that in the mix?
- [61:44]
Ryan Rosillo
Why not? I mean, I'm just saying that.
- [61:45]
Bill Simmons
No, but they did. But when that happened, I'm trying to remember when, during that draft were we wondering if. Yeah, you're right. We were wondering if they would go two or three with that. Oh, shit.
- [61:54]
Ryan Rosillo
I just blew your mind. Yeah. I think this is going to be your Favorite one. I mean, I know you have ones that you've probably liked, so let's do it. So I ran through a couple scenarios. There's plenty of, you know, as. As the ripples go through the lake off the pebbles velocity here. So that would mean no Jalen Green. So you know, we wouldn't be kind of stuck in this what is Jalen Green riddle that's gone on for a really long time. And I think the nice way of talking about it is that I think he's still really important to their offense because he can what he can get on his own. Like in today's NBA, him being able to get what he can on his own. I still feel like I fell in love with him in those non Shingoon games at the end of the season last year, almost like exactly a year ago I was like, this dude is figuring stuff out and it is a little weird and maybe worrisome about the Shingoon part of it. Remember Houston? So they take Mobley two, so now there's not the Green part of it. They took Shingun 16 that year. So if they take Mobley 2, they probably don't take Shingun. So he's not on the team. I don't like doing just whoever is good after the pick that you selected. Shingoon means you would have gotten this guy. But look, there's a Trey Murphy conversation. Who goes 17 on that pick though?
- [63:07]
Bill Simmons
They traded for the pick. Cause that was an OKC pick, right? And OKC got out of 16, traded it to Houston and got these two like super conditional first round picks that I don't even think have really turned in anything. So they definitely traded up for Sengun. The question is, do you do that if you also have Mobley?
- [63:24]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't think so. Even if we can talk about bad teams and not wanting to draft based on need, I have a hard time believing that a team would take Mobley then take Shingoon going. We're just going to roll into it. Although, who knows, like maybe Mobley would be the best thing to play next to Shingoo.
- [63:41]
Bill Simmons
That would have been an amazing combo. All right, so you're saying if they draft Mobley, no Jalen Green and no Shangun already.
- [63:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Right? Because he was. It was a 22 first and a 23 first.
- [63:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I did all the legwork on this and those firsts were kind of those conditional rollover, roll over rollover. And I don't think it's one of the weird presti moves where it's like why don't you just take Serangoon?
- [64:07]
Ryan Rosillo
I gotta tell you, I feel like I need to spend a weekend in a cabin somewhere and go back through all of the crazy. Like, here's four or five first rounders and just do a final tally. Maybe we need to do that on a slower day.
- [64:20]
Bill Simmons
It's like in August.
- [64:21]
Ryan Rosillo
I'll admit, there's just some. I go, you've completely lost, like, Marshawn Beauchamp. Like, what.
- [64:26]
Bill Simmons
What happened there and all.
- [64:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Like, I'm sorry. Like, I know I'm supposed to know all of this stuff, but there's Basketball.
- [64:33]
Bill Simmons
Reference will have that. It has that trade pocket at the bottom of the guy's pages and you read the trades and you're like, dude, it's my homepage.
- [64:39]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm on it all the time. Then they'll. There's just some of these deals that, like, once all the picks are done through, I think we might even be a couple years away from it all. But going through, like, what the cost. Like, two trades that felt like the exact same cost and the price that was paid are two entirely different worlds based on how the picks conveyed. Didn't convey. Anyway, so staying with this theme here, so, you know, who knows what happens with Usman Garuba and Josh Christopher, because those are later first rounders as well. But I think the other side of this is, okay, so Jalen Green not part of the equation. No Shangun. Maybe they take him, maybe they put him next to Mobley. It's terrific. Who knows? But then on the Cleveland side of it, does Cleveland sit there with Jalen Green going, we can't trade for Donovan Mitchell in 22?
- [65:26]
Bill Simmons
The answer is definitely yes, because part of the reason they did that Mitchell trade was they were like, we feel like we've hit a home run with Evan Mobley, now we're going to get it. We've sped up our timeline. Now let's fucking go for this. Because we think mobile is that good. You're not doing that if you have Jalen Green, I don't think for what they gave up with marking in and five firsts and all the other shit and the Kessler. I mean, that trade was expansive. They did it because they love Mobley.
- [65:53]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't think it was that many firsts.
- [65:55]
Bill Simmons
It was three firsts and two swaps. Right?
- [65:57]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, right, right.
- [66:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I don't think they do it. So now we've altered the destinies of Cleveland, Houston and Utah.
- [66:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, that's. That's the thing, right? So there's two swaps in there.
- [66:15]
Bill Simmons
That's pretty good.
- [66:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Because I don't think. I don't think teams would take a Jalen Green and then go, let's do the Mitchell trade now to either. And they would have Darius Garland on the team already, too.
- [66:31]
Bill Simmons
All right. That's a really good one. Great start. Here's my number one. It's an injury, one which I don't usually love for what ifs, but Murray tearing his ACL when he did. Like, to me, the ultimate what if sliding door thing is did title shift. Right. This is one where he tears his acl and it's right after the. The COVID When they started it. It's after the bubble. They start the season late, so he tears his ACL when Murray was potentially.
- [67:00]
Ryan Rosillo
The most annoying human being in the world during the bubble on the sideline.
- [67:04]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [67:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, that was a weird. That was a weird couple weeks. I like that he's. He's no longer doing that.
- [67:12]
Bill Simmons
Murray tears his ACL on April 12, 2021, like a little bit before the playoffs. So he misses the 21 and the 22 playoffs. The Suns ends up making it in 2021 with a team that looking back is like, wow, that not only was that team pretty awesome, but that. That team came really close to winning the finals. But now I look at that team and it's like, what would this team be like a five seed in the West? And then Golden State makes it in 2022 because Murray doesn't come back in time. And that's the one where if you're Denver, you're. I mean, they had Denver ends up winning it in 23. I think Denver, if they have healthy Murray the whole time, I just would have them over that Golden State team. It's great as Steph was because you had Clay at a weird point in his career. Draymond was at a weird point of his career. I just think. I just think Denver would have been better.
- [68:03]
Ryan Rosillo
But you think they would have won back to backs?
- [68:05]
Bill Simmons
No, I think they would have won 22 and then I don't know what happens in 23, but I think it's.
- [68:10]
Ryan Rosillo
A weird way of having the Celtics win it in 23.
- [68:13]
Bill Simmons
I don't know what happened. No. Cause they. Miami beat them in 23. They didn't even get to the finals. I don't know how it goes, no matter how you want to do it, but I just think they would have won the title sooner than that. It's the only injury we'll Talk about. I know the net sliding doors will probably come up during this, but this is the only one where I'm really confident that the 21 or 22 finals would have played out differently in some way. So I think this was the biggest injury. The Giannis sprained ankle in 2020, I think was a really underrated sprained injury when he got hurt in Game 4 against Miami. And then Miami ends up going all the way through. Through the bubble. I think you could argue that could have been Milwaukee that year and then Kyrie and Harden going down in 21. I think. I think those are the three biggest injuries where you could say the title probably swung because this happened, or almost probably swung. So I would have that.
- [69:09]
Ryan Rosillo
That's a good one. Because that warriors team in 23 was 22. 22. Excuse me. Um, that was. That was like this story. But as it was happening, it still kind of like, I can't believe this team's going to win the whole thing.
- [69:25]
Bill Simmons
Whole time, Even during that Memphis series, I was like, and then. And then the Celtics, when they lost.
- [69:33]
Ryan Rosillo
That they were up 31 then puts it on them.
- [69:36]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. It was like, wow, this. This is what we're. One of these teams is probably making the finals. Does Memphis a weird time for the season?
- [69:44]
Ryan Rosillo
How about this? Does Memphis have playoff seasoning because of that? No. I like when you think about Memphis and who they've been, where they've been in the seating, where they've been in some regular season moments, and it feels like they're on the cusp of like, are we getting a Western Conference finals appearance out of this team? I think there's even been moments this year when you look at the standings, you're like, you know, if Jaw is right, like, do you love their closing five? Like, what's going to happen, by the way? Nobody. I think people obviously, with Denver, which I think Denver's actually become a little overrated in this OKC conversation.
- [70:17]
Bill Simmons
More than a little.
- [70:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. And I even guilty of it probably going back less than two months ago, I was like, hey, we still got to include Denver in that one. And then the more I just kept watching, I go, you know what? It needs to be the three teams. And then it's Denver, maybe in their own group that Lakers push, maybe put Lakers with the Nuggets, Houston. I think we all look at the offense going, what is that going to look like in crunch times of playoff games? But now with the Clippers resurgence with the Timberwolves, prior to those two losses, like, there's a lot of stuff in there where you get through a ton of teams before you ever get to Memphis. And you could argue that they've had playoff seasoning, but you could also argue that they haven't really had any, whether it be injuries or getting blasted out so soon with this group also because of injuries.
- [70:56]
Bill Simmons
I think if we were doing which best player in the playoffs do you trust the least? Ja would be the number one pick in that draft from. I just don't. What am I getting from him? How many. How many games is he going to play? Is he going to play seven games in a row? I just don't. I don't trust it because I haven't seen it. And I also don't think, like, I.
- [71:15]
Ryan Rosillo
Don'T think you're wrong on that.
- [71:16]
Bill Simmons
I think in a playoff series over.
- [71:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Harden, you would trust Harden more than Jaw in the playoffs.
- [71:20]
Bill Simmons
At least I know Harden would play.
- [71:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but I mean, is not knowing what you're getting an improvement over what Harden has been for his playoff?
- [71:29]
Bill Simmons
James Harden is a new man in year 19, year 17 now. You're right.
- [71:34]
Ryan Rosillo
He's honestly due. As I've talked up the Clippers a little bit, I purposely left out that part of it because I didn't want to be negative again. I do it far too often. I can't help myself. He is one of my sliding doors, though, so I guess I'm not going to be able to help myself. One more episode here. But honestly, if everybody were healthy with the Clippers and flying around, it's like, you so, you know, it's kind of the thing I used to do to Van Pelt. Like, he would go, we don't do this enough. We don't do this. I'd be like, oh, really? Pick them, then. Pick them. Pick them to win the series. Pick him to win the West. And he was like, I bullied him into it one time. He picked the team, and then they lost. And he's like, you asshole. You know, And I was like, well, this. This concept of. And look, anybody that talks for a living, there's a lot of, like, transition into, hey, no one's really talking about this team. But watching the Clippers be this awesome version of themselves again, and that Cavs game and going through all the numbers and how everybody's making shots and Kawhi looking like Kawhi. And Kawhi getting after Mitchell defensively and a couple huge possessions, I was like, holy shit. And then I'm saying to myself, like, so you're going to pick him. You're going to pick Harden to get to the Western Conference or you're going.
- [72:40]
Bill Simmons
To pick Kawhi to play for six straight weeks? Yeah, that's another one. So I think Jazz in that thing too.
- [72:46]
Ryan Rosillo
That's a good draft. You should do that with somebody like.
- [72:48]
Bill Simmons
You do it with you next week. All right.
- [72:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Talk about a few games.
- [72:52]
Bill Simmons
I'm going to do a second Sliding doors and then I'll throw it back to you because it's tied into the injury thing with.
- [72:59]
Ryan Rosillo
But to finish the Denver thing. You think Murray healthy. They get the 1 in 22.
- [73:03]
Bill Simmons
I think they win in 22. Yeah. Because Jokic was that good by then and I their supporting cast was good. I think they would have been the best team. Which ties into the other one. It's kind of a one a one b. The. The what if the 2021 nets don't break down is a great one because that they had that Celtics series where they looked like they might have a chance to be the greatest offensive team of all time. And they're actually playing well together. And then I think Kyrie got her. Kyrie sprained his ankle. Harden hurt his hamstring, tried to keep playing. There's so many. And then they end up losing because KD steps on the line. But you know, Milwaukee barely beats them. Getting incredible injury luck and they still barely win. It takes them overtime. Gave seven to beat them. So then you got all the. If those guys don't get hurt. Does Giannis ever make a Finals? Do the Nets actually win the title? How do we talk about Kevin Durant now? Are those guys all still together? Do we talk about Harden? We like you just mentioned Harden five minutes ago. Well, what if they won the finals that year? How do we talk about him? How do we talk about Kyrie who gets traded? Does Kyrie even end up on Dallas? Does Harden end up on two more teams? Does KD end up on Phoenix? It's like that is one of those. When you talk about sliding doors, there's an alternate universe. And Zach Lowe always used to call them the greatest hypothetical team. There's an alternate universe where we talk about that team like they're the 99 Rams. We're like, oh my God, remember that? Those guys. And then they scored 130 a game and went 14 and 16 and two in the playoffs. Jesus Christ. But didn't happen.
- [74:46]
Ryan Rosillo
There's. You could do an entire like this Celtics Doc. You could do maybe a 20 parter on all the what ifs with The Nets over this because I went deep into the hardened contract stuff this morning, and I did it last week, and I was double checking with somebody on all the numbers of the extensions that he was turning down. Yeah, I like staying. Let's stay on this side of it. Which ring do you think is more important? Giannis getting that one or Jokic getting his in 23?
- [75:15]
Bill Simmons
I honestly Giannis, because I don't think there's a path for him otherwise. I think that was their one best chance to win. And if he doesn't win there, he starts to move into that Barkley area. It becomes the dominant theme with him for the last couple years. Even before the Dame trade, we're like, whoa, Zionis ever. Is he ever going to make the Finals? How good can he be? We're just doing that for three years and not like he'd give a shit. He's not even from America. He doesn't understand how stupid half the shit is that we obsess over. But I just think that. I think he would have been the guy for this decade. I don't know. How good is he? Giannis and Jokic both took that off the table. Luka at least made the Finals last year, but Luka, you know, if it doesn't happen for the Lakers for a couple of years, we'll be doing with him. But this is what we do. It's a. You guys. I don't feel like we're in the you guys on this as much, but I think.
- [76:11]
Ryan Rosillo
I think it is. But I'm not. I'm not lumping you in with everybody else, because my first thought was it was Jokic, because we were talking about Jokic with all these MVPs and back in the conversation, and Giannis, you know, unfortunately, it feels like no matter what he does, he's just not as much of the conversation. I think one year I. I was looking back through, like, my MVP voting because I was looking at some other voters who. I'm just like, you want to talk agendas like, this is such a joke. And I, you know, I don't know if I'll have a vote again this year, but I hope you have a vote.
- [76:43]
Bill Simmons
You put in the work, you watch the games, you should get a vote.
- [76:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I appreciate you saying that, but I look at it as. Is something. When you get done with it, I don't. I don't know how you could ever be like, yeah, nailed it. Because whenever you try to slot in Giannis, like, I bet you if you averaged out my MVP Voting years, I would have Giannis higher than whatever, you know, his average finish would be. And yet with Jokic, I think it's a different tier that he's chasing.
- [77:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [77:14]
Ryan Rosillo
And I think he would get more shit without a ring than Giannis would. I think for Giannis, it would be.
- [77:18]
Bill Simmons
Because you think Jokic has the chance to be one of the 10 best players of all time, whereas Giannis is in that 10 to 20 range. Probably.
- [77:25]
Ryan Rosillo
It's a pretty simple formula. If we have these conversations about you. The same thing with the quarterbacks, where it's like, okay, this guy is one of the four or five best quarterbacks with all these different things. When you lose in the playoffs, it's way worse than the 10th or 12th guy. And for Jokic, we're talking about like chasing top 10 in history. I don't think we're talking about that anymore with Giannis, we probably were during that final stretch. Right. I also think there'd be a part of this with Giannis where it would become, can you win with this approach? When it's like, well, dude, I'm so glad that he won because I see somebody that reads defenses really well. He stopped taking threes.
- [78:01]
Bill Simmons
I think he's a more efficient fucking ass off.
- [78:04]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. He wants to kill everyone in the other uniform the entire time he's out there. And it's a bit like the Garnett thing because he keeps losing in the playoffs. You have to start questioning him. And I think the only thing that was fair, two bad luck injuries with.
- [78:16]
Bill Simmons
Him too, in the playoffs, like at the wrong times.
- [78:19]
Ryan Rosillo
If you were doing the full scope of it, it's like, look, as great as Garnett was, he probably couldn't have always been the number one scoring option to close out a tied playoff game because he was always probably a little bit more apprehensive offensively than I wish that he was. But to suggest that he was a loser because he was losing all the time was wrong.
- [78:39]
Bill Simmons
Were people actually doing that? Because I remember him just being this incredibly sympathetic figure, basically. You know, because Glenn Taylor, he lost all those picks and the first thing Marbury left, but it's just like his supporting cast was so bad. At least the stuff I was writing back then was like, we gotta rescue this guy from Minnesota. Almost became the narrative. Giannis, I think, has had more help than KG did.
- [79:04]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean, those, those teams, you just go through it and you see who's like, I always like looking up, like, who took the third most shots for this team. You're like Trenton Hassel, right?
- [79:13]
Bill Simmons
They got one really good Cassell year and it felt like a miracle. It's like, oh my God, their point guard's averaging 17 and 8.
- [79:19]
Ryan Rosillo
But I want to finish the point, though, only because it would. It would crush me as a basketball fan to watch the way Giannis plays and with all of the great things that we just talked about. Right. All of the great things that it would then lead to. There's something wrong with him if he didn't have the ring. So I, I think you could make a really good argument for which guy would take more son's a ring here. Because Jokic is like touching a to a totally different historic tier. I think Giannis is. When it's all said and done, like, what is this guy going to be? Because the standard for him would be higher because of the way we're talking about him. Again, it feels a little dismissive of Giannis, but we're talking about like, hey, top 10 of all time in this sport versus Giannis, who probably lands in the top 20. You know, I don't know. I mean, you know this stuff better than I do.
- [80:10]
Bill Simmons
No, I can tell you Giannis is. We're talking about the Hakeem Shaq Moses kind of area, right?
- [80:16]
Ryan Rosillo
And where are you?
- [80:17]
Bill Simmons
What's on like the Bird and Magic Suite, like knocking on the door now, like, okay, I am the natural legacy to you guys.
- [80:25]
Ryan Rosillo
They would get. It would be a good segment to do that too. Like, we're just rank, we're just producing shows here right now is who are the most. Like go last 20 years, the most important rings. Like, how important is Steph's fourth ring?
- [80:38]
Bill Simmons
You know, I think I would have Steph's fourth ring over all of them. I think it vaulted him into a completely different area.
- [80:46]
Ryan Rosillo
No kidding. Do you think Steph's fourth is more important than Jokic or Giannis's first or.
- [80:51]
Bill Simmons
Only I do, because those guys still have a chance to win another one and Steph didn't. And Steph, there always would have been a little asterisk next to him. And all it did was put him right with Kobe and West and you know, right in that group. And he's probably leading the way in that group. I mean, you can never say, oh, you the first one LeBron got, all his teammates got hurt in 15. And then the next two year Durant, that's why he won. There was always a yeah but with him, and the yeah buts were gone. We talked about it when it happened Giannis MVP voting since 191 1. 4. 3. 3. 4. And he's going to be three or four this year. Probably four. Yeah. See, I voted him straight years in the top four.
- [81:35]
Ryan Rosillo
I voted him second last year.
- [81:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, you were. I enjoyed it. I did not. But I. I liked your reasoning.
- [81:42]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And I know that I, I went back and looked at it a bunch of times and I. It was like, you consistently have him higher than other people do and look, on some stuff, I'm impossibly stubborn. I will not change my mind. I don't care what you have to say on this. I'm not stubborn. I might be wrong, but I just felt like, I don't know if the list is very long of dudes that are more impactful this season again than that guy. So we'll see what happens.
- [82:12]
Bill Simmons
I think I still, if I had to do MVP right now, I would still put Tatum three and Giannis four. Because I just think what Tatum has done this year has been incredible. Being point forward, guarding five positions, being the best rebounder in the team and having more team success. I don't know what else you would want, you know, and Giannis is having the same 30, 12 and 6 that he has every year. And, you know, it's some of the same stuff with him down the stretch of games, the way teams play him. I think he's. I don't want to say hard to play with, but you kind of have to tailor the team to what he can and can't do, you know, and he's. He's really a center, and if you just think of him as a perimeter center, it probably makes more sense. But I just think Tatum's been slightly better this year.
- [82:59]
Ryan Rosillo
I still think it has to be one of the three most horrifying things in basketball when Giannis has decided he's going to go to the hood.
- [83:06]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's the thing with the playoffs. There's. I was talking to a Knicks fan yesterday. Who do you not want to see in the three spot? If it's between Detroit, Milwaukee, Indiana, who's the not? I don't want to see that team in. The case for Milwaukee is. I just don't want to see Giannis for two weeks.
- [83:23]
Ryan Rosillo
How was that even a conversation?
- [83:25]
Bill Simmons
Well, because those are the three choices. Obviously Detroit you'd want to see the most because it's Cade and a bunch of guys have been there. But Indiana is a team that plays really well against them, that pressures that they have, those guards that just pressure full time. They have a Ton of confidence against them. They're deep. And Milwaukee's kind of a messed up team. Like, they're not that good. You know, they're, they're.
- [83:46]
Ryan Rosillo
I still would rather play. You know, there's an argument to be made because the Pacers are like a mirror version of you as the Knicks. It's like, who knows what happens in that free for all.
- [83:53]
Bill Simmons
Like, I wouldn't want to play the Pacers. Pacers are number one for me. I'd rather, I'd rather take my chances with this Bucks team and Kuzma and some of the bench dudes. And I, you know what? Let's give Giannis's 30 and 12 every night. We're still beating these guys.
- [84:13]
Ryan Rosillo
I, I don't know, I just feels crazy picking the pace. I'd rather play Giannis than the Pacers, but I understand the part of it and especially knowing the Knicks and who they are and going, hey, the Pacers are just going to run and not defend with us for seven games too. And then who knows what happens?
- [84:27]
Bill Simmons
Well, and they're also going to, they're going to really pressure Brunson, who's coming off an injury. They're going to make him dribble for 90ft every time.
- [84:34]
Ryan Rosillo
He's going to foul him 30 times a day.
- [84:36]
Bill Simmons
We're going to hack him. We're going to talk shit. I would not want to see them. Let's take a break and then we'll finish Sliding Doors. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Why you can always dream about winning big with the lotto. There's stuff you can do right now to get more money in your pocket. Who doesn't love more money? I remember in the late 90s, I had my own website. I was making money from that. I was also bartending. I was waitering. And I still was scrambling. And I started writing for some wrestling magazines for a few months. That's the thing. You gotta keep the side hustles going. You gotta make extra money any way you can. Another great way to save money. Switch your wireless carrier to Mint a Mobile Premium wireless plan starting 15 bucks a month. All their plans come with unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your own phone if you'd like your money. Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plansintmobile.combill that's mintmobile.combill. upfront payment of $45 for a 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $50 a month. New customer offer for first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. The weather is warming up and it's time to enjoy brunch with friends and family all spring long with great everyday prices from Whole Foods Market. Just look for the yellow, low price signs that help you save money every day without compromising the quality you expect at Whole Foods Market. Discover low priced, responsibly farmed Atlantic salmon, no antibiotics ever, ground beef and boneless, skinless chicken breasts. Plus more throughout the store. Wherever you see yellow at Whole Foods Market, you know you're saving money. Save on the best of spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. All right, what do you have for your next sliding doors?
- [86:25]
Ryan Rosillo
I'll just keep it with this off of the Nets thing. Cause I think it's a really good point, especially when those guys were playing and you were sorting the stats going, do people. Because, like, I think a little gets overstated in each season. We're like, hey, do you realize that this team is now on pace to be the greatest offensive all time? Like, Dallas had it a couple years ago for this stretch. It's like, okay, but at no point do I look at this team. It's the rising tides thing as offenses get better and better every single year. But there was some net stuff that was happening with that group, and they were winning all of those games in the rare occasion that those dudes are playing. So I love that one. All right, so Harden, we know, turned down an extension with Houston that was like 100 million on top of the hundred that he was owed. He turned that one down before the 21 season started. Remember, there's that deadline before the season gets going where he can sign an extension. He was offered three years, 160 million. That would have been on top of a player option of 47.4 million.
- [87:17]
Bill Simmons
Hmm.
- [87:18]
Ryan Rosillo
He turned that one down because he was actually eligible for an extension for 225 million for four more years. So of all of these scenarios, he ended up demanding a trade after he had called Brooklyn home. Right. So we're all on the same page. But again, I'm sympathetic to Harden a couple different times in the hardened timeline. And in the case of him being frustrated with the Nets and going like, what the hell's going on over here? You know, the Kyrie stuff, He didn't want to be there anymore. I don't like the way he handled it. But that's what he ends up doing. He moves on all Right. So instead of hitting free agency and signing any of these things that he's already been offered, he goes to Philly and does a two year deal for 68 million with the player option for the next year at 35.7 to allegedly.
- [88:09]
Bill Simmons
Give them a chance to get more guys because he's a lesser deal. Right?
- [88:14]
Ryan Rosillo
They do get more guys, but the.
- [88:16]
Bill Simmons
Real thing was like, we'll take care of you in two years if you do this.
- [88:19]
Ryan Rosillo
But yeah, and that's why I've always kind of taken hard and size that if he has already turned down a hundred million dollar extension from Houston, that was going to make him the highest paid player in the NBA. There's $161 million extension. That's all the Nets could offer him before the season. But he was like, look, I'm going to turn it down. I'm going to go to free agency, I'm going to sign the extension with you here. And at one point, I think in the 2627 season, he was going to be the first $60 million player a year on the books again. So that's 26, 27. We're still two years away from that season that was supposed to be on the books with some of these extensions. So he's turning all that stuff down. Granted, he then gets frustrated with the Nets and wants out, but these are the numbers that he's expecting that he's in line for. And then he signs for two years in 68 and all of us are like, what the fuck, right? He has a player option for the second year and remember the player option like, oh, he's just going to opt out and then he's going to go back and get his four years $200 million. No, he's not, because now he's not getting the extension. Now he's pissed. He opts in to control the trade market with this. He ops in. So that means he makes 68.6 million with the Sixers. He signs the two year $70 million deal, his pass free agency with the Clippers. So instead of those four years where he makes 1:38, he basically made about 70 million less over those four years. What if, what if the Sixers had just signed him?
- [89:45]
Bill Simmons
Can we go backwards because there's. You had so many what ifs in there. What if he just signs with Houston and stays there and then they kind of keep that going for another year before they realize they can't win a title instead, instead of just blowing it up. I still don't love the trade they made, but it did blow them up. It allowed them to reset. It allowed them to be the Mobley Green draft, if I remember. They got picks out of it, they got cap space, all that stuff. But then you go to the Nets.
- [90:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Honestly, I, I think it ended up being a blessing for Houston because it allowed them to reset it sooner, and now they're where they're at. Now Houston's in better shape, right? Houston. Houston's totally fine with every way this.
- [90:22]
Bill Simmons
Has gone, works out for Houston, goes to the Nets. Nets give up all that stuff for them. It's still haunting them to the point that they then just did that thing where they traded the Phoenix stuff to get back their own pick, which is.
- [90:35]
Ryan Rosillo
Its own conversation, which may have, like, we'll see what happens there. Because those Phoenix picks, like, who knows?
- [90:41]
Bill Simmons
Who knows, right? But the other piece of that was when they finally have to get off Harden. They trade for Ben Simmons, which turns out to be a catastrophe, and they take Ben Simmons off Philly's hands.
- [90:53]
Ryan Rosillo
They, they, they give them James Harden.
- [90:57]
Bill Simmons
For Ben Simmons and like two first round picks that mean nothing.
- [91:01]
Ryan Rosillo
And as much as you, you can, you can dislike Harden more than I dislike his playoff performances. But at that point, like, Daryl, like, where's the out? Where's the out? Like, how are you going to figure out, like, but here's the thing.
- [91:14]
Bill Simmons
We both like to trade.
- [91:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. I don't know.
- [91:18]
Bill Simmons
No, because at that point we're like, hey, they can rejuvenate Ben Simmons. It turns out to be a dejuvenation. It just gets even worse. So then, and then with Philly, he screw, he screws them up where they finally have to get rid of him, and then they have, you know, whatever happened to them last season. But then he goes to the Clippers and he allows them to get off the Paul George thing, which then retroactively kills Philly. So he kills Philly and Brooklyn.
- [91:47]
Ryan Rosillo
He did not Houston a favor. So let's go one out of three right now. He wanted out, but it ended up being the best thing that could have happened for them because they get to reset the clock, they get the picks. And now, you know, if you were doing a future roster draft, Houston's at least a top five pick, even with the heck.
- [92:05]
Bill Simmons
But he helps the Clippers because they get out of Paul George, they get hardened on a much better deal. The Paul George stuff allows them to kind of reset all their apron shit.
- [92:15]
Ryan Rosillo
Maybe Houston's top seven future roster pick is. I'm kind of doing in my Head real quick.
- [92:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they're top five, but it's just the picks they have with the Phoenix picks.
- [92:23]
Ryan Rosillo
It's why when you're like, okay, I'm in line for like 225 million in the summer of 22.
- [92:31]
Bill Simmons
Again, just take it and figure it out later.
- [92:33]
Ryan Rosillo
The numbers are. Are interesting, but if. If Philly had just after he had done the first year at the discount, and then they saw him play, and then imagine like, ownership's going, what? What was. You know, they can argue. It's been investigated. I'll still never believe that Harden just decided to do a two, a one plus one with a massive haircut, knowing he'd already turned down 161 million, thinking he was in line for four years and 225 million. It's like, no, I'll do two for 68, but I'll opt out next year. I just don't understand how a player or his reps would be like, we will do this and just see what happens. And then he doesn't play well in that Celtics series. I know it was great in the beginning of the Celtics series, but it was just overall, at that point, you're watching another year of Harden where you're going, who would want to give him four years in the 200 million now? And it's the key point.
- [93:22]
Bill Simmons
He was so bad in six and seven. But there's another what if that because.
- [93:25]
Ryan Rosillo
He was awesome in earlier in the series again to be and then dies. Right, right. Go ahead.
- [93:30]
Bill Simmons
But the other what if to this is they don't treat Harden well in this whole extension thing, and it becomes a he said, she said thing. Not great for Darrell, not great for the Sixers. So they zagged the other way with Embiid. You know what? We're gonna double down on Joel Embiid and show how much we love this guy with this massive extension on top of the two years we already owe him, because we gotta show that we love our players, and that turns out to be a mistake. James Harden, a lot of sliding doors, and it could end up with the Clippers making the Western Finals. It could be a sliding door number seven.
- [94:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. Because you'd imagine if Harden stays. There's a couple other things here, too. It doesn't mean anything for Embiid and his health, but they're better this year. And that pick is definitely gone to okc, but it's still not like an awful pick. And by the way, they have the sixth worst record. It's top six. If there's one upset. Philly's still losing that pick. Okay.
- [94:28]
Bill Simmons
It's like I it's basically 5050 or 6040 depending on where they are. Even if they get to the five spot, it's still like 6040 that they keep it. So it's not even like oh we got the five spot, we're keeping the pick. No, they change the odds. You're not keeping it. Definitely.
- [94:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Or because Harden isn't there to probably have them set up for a much better regular season. Cause if he's playing, he's putting up numbers.
- [94:51]
Bill Simmons
Right. They keep. Then maybe they get the third pick.
- [94:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. So maybe the, the best part of this. Maybe it's Paul George staying with the Clippers because they don't have the Harden option. Would the Clippers be better or worse you know, depending on George's availability? I don't know that there's much of an argument you can make in it anyway. That one's endless. It just is a cycle. It's a fever dream.
- [95:12]
Bill Simmons
I have another one that's endless. Ready? What if Dallas just gives Jalen Brunson A 4 year 55 extension during the summer of 2021 or even during the 2122 season. It leads to no Jalen Brunson in New York, no Kyrie to Dallas. Maybe Lucas stays cause him and Jalen Brunson are so awesome together. New York ends up trading everything for Donovan Mitchell who wanted to play in New York for a couple years there before realizing those doors were closed. So now we don't have the Cleveland thing either because the Knicks have traded seven first round picks and God only knows what else to get Mitchell Bridges does. Bridges doesn't go to the Knicks. Maybe he goes somewhere else. Whatever the 2025 Cavs don't happen. It's got 19 different things but then also leads to sliding door to be does Dallas even trade Luka at that point? And then the second part of this is what if Dallas just leaks in mid January that they're thinking about trading Luca? How did the next two weeks play out? Shams reports I'm hearing the Dallas approach Minnesota about Anthony Edwards to see if but and and it's just. And then the Dallas fan base reacts and we're off. And I don't think there's any way he gets traded but if he does get traded it's for a way crazier price than what they got. So I think those two are tied together because neither of them are now in the Dallas Mavericks.
- [96:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Is there a discussion about who would you rather have if you were the Knicks, Mitchell or Brunson?
- [96:47]
Bill Simmons
Well, the answer is Brunson because the price they gave up for Brunson versus the price they would have had to give up for Mitchell, it's no contest. If you're saying just fundamentally, who would you rather have?
- [96:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, let's not talk in the fact that Brunson gave him a massive discount, which again is another one of those that I'm like.
- [97:04]
Bill Simmons
I'd per. I'd personally, I'd like slight lean toward Brunson for me, but I also think Tibbs is running Brunson into the ground in a real way. And there's a chance maybe Mitchell would have been better off playing for Tibbs than Brunson. I think what they're doing in Brunson is nuts. I've been pretty consistent with it. He finally got hurt. It wasn't, you know, he stepped on somebody's ankle. It wasn't Tibbs fault. But I just think running small guys into the ground like that, there is no recipe in the history of the league that that's a good idea.
- [97:39]
Ryan Rosillo
It almost feels like Brunson, it's like recasting a movie. It's like trying to take like, hey, could you have done Dumb and Dumber with Jeff Daniels and Paul Rudd? Right? Well, no, I can't unsee being perfect. There's no way. So undoing what we've seen with Brunson and what he's meant to Knicks fans. Because I imagine as I asked that question, Knicks fans are listening to be like, are you out of your mind? Like Brunson's are. And I'm not telling you you're wrong. I probably lean a little slight Mitchell, but I don't think many people would agree with me. Just because you've seen how special this Brunson Knicks thing has been, how many huge shots he's been involved in, you.
- [98:20]
Bill Simmons
Know, his network, people that want to play for him. I was, I went to Laker game of the Nick fan last night and we were both looking around at all the jerseys, right? And the amount of Kobe jerseys that are still at Lakers games now. All the little kids have Luka jerseys And there's the LeBron jerseys and you'll see some Shaqs and you'll see some old school Jerry west. Like it's.
- [98:40]
Ryan Rosillo
It's inland California guys with Reeves jerseys on.
- [98:43]
Bill Simmons
There are a couple Reeves jerseys for Orange County. But I asked my Knicks fan friends, I asked my Knick fans friend, what are the jerseys like at Knicks games? And he's like, brunson. It's just. People fucking love Brunson.
- [98:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, that's kind of the point is.
- [99:00]
Bill Simmons
And he was like, there's a couple towns. But it's kind of the zag. You know, it's like when the 2002, that. When there was like a lot of Pierce jerseys and then somebody would zag with the Antoine jersey.
- [99:13]
Ryan Rosillo
But I understand the Antoine jersey because he was there before and he. He was the higher pick. And it was like, okay, this guy, you can do a little of everything. Jordan's talking him up.
- [99:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. But yeah, he said there's a width of towns, but it's mostly Brunson. I just think New York just loves Brunson. So anyway, that the Dallas thing, the Brunson piece of it, when it was so obvious, like that just wasn't a lot of money and they should have done it. And then they almost did it again during the season and both times backed off. I think you look at Cuba in the last couple years, and I'm not saying it undid the 2011 title, because that was amazing.
- [99:48]
Ryan Rosillo
But his decade, that's a little too harsh.
- [99:51]
Bill Simmons
His decade is fucking brutal. Like, not doing the Brunson thing, selling the team to these schmucks that trade Luka within a year and then not getting nearly enough for the team. Not to mention all the behind the shit stuff, behind the scenes shit that was going on with that organization. Rough decade for our guy Cubes just. And now he's trying to distance himself desperately from the Luca trade. And he'll do any interview and talk about how he can't believe and oh my God, I had no idea. It's like, you did sell the team to these dudes. This is your fault. Just like it was Howard Schultz's fault when he sold the Sonics to these fucking dudes from Oklahoma City who were clearly going to move them. Cuban sold the Mavericks to these guys and they obviously don't know what they're doing. And they traded Luka Doncic, which is the most insane thing that's happened in the NBA this century, other than maybe the artest melee.
- [100:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Hey, just full transparency. Have you tried to get him on?
- [100:47]
Bill Simmons
No, I. I had him on a couple years ago.
- [100:50]
Ryan Rosillo
You haven't requested him on recently? No, last year.
- [100:54]
Bill Simmons
Why?
- [100:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I thought maybe with the sellers.
- [100:57]
Bill Simmons
I honestly, I don't want to. I. I'm not that interested in somebody giving interviews about how they wouldn't have traded Luka Doncic if they still on the team. It's like, well, you sold the team. I want to say, why'd you sell the team?
- [101:08]
Ryan Rosillo
I know we're doing sliding doors, but we need to stay on this because there's a bunch of things that you said that I totally agree with. But I've also noticed the podcast that he's going on. Is he going on with podcasts, knowing that sports guys that know the story.
- [101:21]
Bill Simmons
A little bit better wouldn't hammer him on it.
- [101:24]
Ryan Rosillo
Right, Right. Cause it's like, hey, when you sold the team, again, if the MAVs go for 4 billion in Dallas wasn't 4.
- [101:31]
Bill Simmons
Billion, it was 3 1/2. It's like, it might have been less.
- [101:35]
Ryan Rosillo
But if the Celtics go for 6.1, the Mavs should have gone for higher. Yes, it's my point.
- [101:40]
Bill Simmons
They own their arena.
- [101:41]
Ryan Rosillo
They own their arena.
- [101:42]
Bill Simmons
It's a top eight or nine market in the league. And they had Luka Doncic, who's worth a billion dollars by himself for value, no question.
- [101:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. And then which so many NBA teams. And I just heard McMahon on with Windhorse and Bontemps on this, and he was talking about just the wording of the transition of the front office, of like, okay, this group is buying it, but I am going to run this team. And there's all these very specific quotes about how Cuban's going to keep running it. I don't know. Was that to a fan base, Nobody believed it. There were other teams.
- [102:19]
Bill Simmons
Nobody who actually was in basketball circles believed that that's how it was going to be played out. And by the way, we're going through the same thing now with. With Wick and the new owner, unless that's in writing, that he is going to be the governor for the next three years, and that's part of the sale, I don't know if he's going to last two years, one year, we have no idea.
- [102:36]
Ryan Rosillo
But see, that's. I want to stay on it because this is exactly where I wanted to go, because McMahon was using, like, quotes, and they were all like, they all sound ridiculous. Less than a year later, of Cuban, go, okay, this is how it's going to be handled. And then, you know, I'm going to run all these different things. And as I.
- [102:52]
Bill Simmons
We made fun of it in the moment on this podcast, and there were.
- [102:55]
Ryan Rosillo
So many people around the NBA being like, why does he keep saying this? Like, this is definitely not going to happen. And it's exactly how it played out. So when the Celtics sale was announced, which I want to ask you more about, the first thing I thought about in that press release was, I wonder what isn't true in this now? Maybe they're telling the truth. Maybe. And I still think, despite some of the blips that you're. You're hammering Cuban here for, I think it's a. It's a much better track record than a lot of the other options that you've had. You'd look at long term ownership. There's no way you're giving Cuban a failing great at owning the max.
- [103:28]
Bill Simmons
No, he's unbelievable. I think he's one of the most important NBA owners of the 21st century. He's in the top three.
- [103:34]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [103:35]
Bill Simmons
And he had a great, great first two decades. I'm just saying, the. The. The stretch here, starting with Brunson to the end, it's really bad for him. It gets mentioned in the first paragraph of everything about this, and he has to.
- [103:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Jalen Brunson. Jalen Brunson signing with the Knicks is not in the first paragraph. Whatever, Cube.
- [103:52]
Bill Simmons
No, I'm saying what happened to the Mavs over the course to where they are now, where their fan base is in a full revolt with the team. I don't know. He's got to get some blame for that. He does. And don't sell the. Don't sell the team to these people who obviously didn't know what they were doing. If you know, and then be like, ah, I never would have traded them. Like, I thought you loved the Mavericks. I thought you loved their fans. I thought you loved Luca. Like, that's crazy. That's crazy to say that after the fact. You have to take some blame. I should have vetted these guys better. I wish I hadn't sold the team. He didn't do any of it. He's just been like, I never would have done it. Cool. Guess what? You don't have Luka Dodge anymore.
- [104:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Or the Mavs. There are some memes going around that are like a reminder of Mike Tirico's greatest lesson that he ever shared with me was the points you don't make make the points you do make that much stronger, which is still something I struggle with, but it's really good. Like, if you have one, one point, like, sell it, but don't sell it with 05, 6, 7 that aren't really as strong and almost hurt the strength of 1, 2, 3, and 4 to hammer home your point. So, hey, Luca's gone. So it was like the Mavs fumble. Have you seen this meme? So it's Luca and then it's Brunson. And then it's Grimes, who single handed is like screwing up some of these lottery odds for the sixes. But then it's Porzingis, who, by the way, they couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there.
- [105:20]
Bill Simmons
And that you did that trade again.
- [105:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Derrick Jones Jr. Was over there and you're like, okay, well, I mean, you know, he's. He's a nice player, but there's just some dudes in that picture where I'm like, actually, you're. You're kind of ruining the point. But you just thought it would look better with seven players instead of just three. Do you, do you believe the transition plan for the Celtics in Wick? Because I could see where a group comes in and goes, wick has been again, I think with on that short list. We know that he's cared. We know that. I think he gets it in the way that fans would want your owner to get it. They have always spent money when they've had to spend money. They're staring down the barrel. This massive tax bill, which I think it'd be sort of weird for Wick to go like, hey, now that you have to pay this bill, I would recommend not trading any of these players and keeping this window open.
- [106:06]
Bill Simmons
Let's give Kate a 10 million a year. No, here's what I believe. I think it's very possible, and I don't know for sure, that part of the conditions when they got to the Final four were like, we're going to consider the bids or favor the bids that WIC is in there for three years as the governor in the transition, and if you can get to 6 billion and you have that in there, you're going to have a better chance. And there might have been some of the other bids that were like, all right, our offer is 5.8 and we take over the team immediately. I just don't know if that's in there or not. And I don't know if this is Cuban 2.0, where it's like, no, no, he's going to run the team. And then nine months from now, the new guy's like, hey, Wick, I took your courtside seats, so I moved you over. You're going to be in a suite from now on. And all this stuff that happened to Cuban, we knew the Cuban thing was done, and I can't remember if we talked about it or not when he wasn't involved with the Western Conference trophy presentation and all that stuff. And then there was stuff that you were hearing during the finals about. They wouldn't let him sit, you know, they wouldn't give him the courtsides. He was scrambling to sit courtside, and the team only gets two. And there was just a lot of buzz that, oh, he didn't play this one correctly. I don't know what the word or.
- [107:23]
Ryan Rosillo
It was played the way it's supposed to be played. Is it when somebody writes you a check for billions that guess what?
- [107:29]
Bill Simmons
They want to own the team? That's why I have no idea what. What. Where we're going with the Celtics. What was your last sliding door? Cause we're almost done with this segment.
- [107:39]
Ryan Rosillo
If Luca is drafted by Atlanta and he stays with the Hawks, does that mean no. Dyson Daniels. I didn't know you had a Luca one. So I had another Luca one with Atlanta. I don't know how different it really is. He's probably still on Atlanta. Trey is with Dallas. They likely don't have a finals run in 24. Um, but I don't know. That one's not nearly as exciting as the Luca one that you did. So why don't you just share your last one that you think I'll just.
- [108:07]
Bill Simmons
Rip through really quick? The what if Dame goes to Miami is fun because I love this one. It has a whole bunch of ramifications. Miami offered Hero Lowry and 28 and 30 firsts. Phoenix. If this all happens, Phoenix the. The Deandre Ayton and Kamara for Nurkic and Allen. That trade doesn't happen.
- [108:31]
Ryan Rosillo
An Ayton trade probably happens though, Rip.
- [108:34]
Bill Simmons
But I'm not positive Grayson Allen's in it because that was part of, like, you know, trying to get Dame and they had to move money off and put Grayson Allen somewhere. Who knows? The Bucks don't lose Drew to the Celtics. They get a 29 first and swaps and 28 and 30. Portland. Portland ends up getting. They trade Drew to Boston for Brogdon Williams A 24 Golden State first and a 29 Boston first. Basically, what I wrote down is every team is worse off except Portland and Boston. The Bucks are worse off with what with Dame and the fact that it didn't elevate them the way they thought. Even though Dame's been, I think, good.
- [109:19]
Ryan Rosillo
This year, Dame's been better offensively this year. There's no really good comparison, but test.
- [109:24]
Bill Simmons
Wise, he's looked really good. Stats are good. Heat are way worse off. Phoenix is worse off. So, yeah, it's just a weird one.
- [109:36]
Ryan Rosillo
Let's.
- [109:36]
Bill Simmons
I think I hope the Celtics win the title is the biggest Sliding door from that.
- [109:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, let's. Let's stand. What if they do the Miami deal? Does that mean Butler gets extended? Does it mean that Miami's still in the mix? Does it mean that Butler's happy? Does it mean that Golden State has no other option?
- [109:52]
Bill Simmons
You know, I think if you do that Dame trade, you then have to do the extension with Jimmy because you can't do all that and then not have a really relationship.
- [110:01]
Ryan Rosillo
You don't think Miami wouldn't just like, hey, we'll just run it to free agency, see what's out there for you?
- [110:07]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. I don't think you can. You can't give up all that for Dame and be like, we're trying to win right now. Also, I didn't factor in whatever happened to Bam out of bio in the last year. What happened? Why isn't he an impactful top 20 guy anymore? Does if Dame's on that team, is he.
- [110:29]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, having another like all NBA. Not that Dame's making all NBA this year, but having somebody like his with his shot making would certainly help him a lot easier. I mean, they're a mess right now.
- [110:40]
Bill Simmons
I know it makes fan better. It makes Butler, if he's happy and they took care of him, an extension and they might be a contender. So that's a good one.
- [110:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think there's some assumptions in that though. Like what if Dame comes in, gets his 30, isn't playing defense and it.
- [110:56]
Bill Simmons
Becomes a sun situation?
- [110:57]
Ryan Rosillo
It's not. Yeah, it's not like you just assumed a lot about what they would be doing in the East.
- [111:06]
Bill Simmons
I think they would have taken care of Butler in that scenario. So I feel like it's two guys now.
- [111:10]
Ryan Rosillo
All right, fine. Then let's say it's.
- [111:12]
Bill Simmons
It's Butler and Dame with Ban.
- [111:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Is that a top six team in the east right now?
- [111:25]
Bill Simmons
I think they might have thought it was, but you're right. It might have been a sun situation where the league got way deeper. And this recipe you had for a big three didn't make as much sense in 25 as it did now. I think it would have helped them more last year. Also might help them get some. Some. Some buyout dudes. And who knows?
- [111:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Guys are so overrated.
- [111:47]
Bill Simmons
I think they would add struggle, trouble against Boston, a couple more quick ones. What if Hishba doesn't have new owner syndrome because he did that? KD for bridges, Cam Crowder 4 first and swap. It also led to the second beal trade, which saved. He basically saved Washington and saved Brooklyn. Right. With those two trades. So that's gotta be thrown in there. What if the Udoka scandal never happens? Do the Celtics win in 23? What happens to the Rockets? Does any of this even matter? Did it all play out exactly the way it should have played out?
- [112:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Is he still second row Joe to you guys?
- [112:25]
Bill Simmons
He might be third row Joe. What if Danny just doesn't blow up the Jazz in 22? Coming off a 4933 season when they lost to Dallas because Luca was hurt half the series. But Brunson went nuts and it seemed like, what is this? This team's broken. Jalen Brunson just lit them up. But nobody knew he was Jalen Brunson yet. And then they end up making those two massive trades to Cleveland and to Minnesota and basically create these new, you know, con real contenders.
- [112:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, totally.
- [112:53]
Bill Simmons
For two other teams.
- [112:54]
Ryan Rosillo
I imagine Mitchell. Mitchell would have started getting loud, I think at some point. Yeah, I don't think that was going to be up to just Utah.
- [113:02]
Bill Simmons
What if Golden State takes Lamelo and Franz in those two drafts? Again, stupid.
- [113:08]
Ryan Rosillo
No, it isn't stupid because I.
- [113:09]
Bill Simmons
No, but I mean it's like this is like in a draft you could do this in all the time. But it is. There is this alternate universe where they take Lamelo and they take France. Did they win the 22 title at that point? Maybe they don't. Are they better now? Maybe they are. I. I don't know. It's just step, retire steps. Like I'm done, I'm out. Does Lamelo fit in their system? Do they trade him within a year?
- [113:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Does Lamelo. Does Lamello. Does he actually look like a future hall of famer? 16, 17 a game, wide open, threes all the time.
- [113:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [113:38]
Ryan Rosillo
Passing over the top. Like could Lamelo actually. I know he's a stat filling guy, but would he look like amazing winning guy, Complimentary fun winning player?
- [113:49]
Bill Simmons
I will say Kamingo over Franz, which I think was argued really extensively in Golden State side. And the whole case for Franz was he's an IQ guy, he's movement, he can fits into what we do. That just would have been a better pick for them.
- [114:04]
Ryan Rosillo
I had Bob Myers on and talked about that pick after and then was like, who would you have taken then? Because I was like, it's just Kaminga felt like the competition he was going up against and he was like, well, who would you have taken? I go, it's totally unfair for me to say like after Franz has had the start to his career. Career that, oh, you should have taken Franz. So we came to some kind of agreement with that. But I. I think it's a. A lot like these conversations that guys will have and they go, okay, but if it's a lot like the Jaylen Brown thing with H, if with this body type and this kind of athleticism, is there enough there that we see that we can build on that? This could be like a really special perimeter player where you're taking him. That's what I think breaks a lot of ties in these war rooms. And then we look back being like, how do those guys that one up.
- [114:48]
Bill Simmons
I think they finally realized that the. That they. As long as Steph and Draymond were on the team, hoop, hoops. IQ had to be the number one thing. Maybe they struggled with that for a couple years. Two more quick ones. This is just a funny one.
- [115:00]
Ryan Rosillo
What are you saying about Wiseman and Kaminga?
- [115:03]
Bill Simmons
What if Covid never happened? And I went back and I looked at the standings and I remembered and actually listened to like 10 minutes of a pod we did that Sunday before COVID of Lake. The Lakers finally beat the Clippers, and we did a pod about, what does this mean? Did the Lakers and say like. But the Clippers had already beaten them twice. But the Lakers, when Covid happens, The Lakers are 49 and 14. They're number one in the West. The Clippers are 44 and 20, and the Nuggets are 43 and 22. So. And those are going to be our three teams. Basically. Milwaukee was 53 and 12, and Giannis was about to win his second MVP. And Milwaukee, I just forgot this. Milwaukee was like, that was the big obstacle. That was the one. And then it was like LA versus la. And then here's Giannis over here and how is this going to play out? And Covid happens, they come back and Giannis gets hurt in the first round. And that's how Miami jumps in. The Clippers completely fall apart in the bubble. So Covid never happens. I don't know what happens that season, but it's probably Milwaukee or the two LA teams. I think the title comes from one of those three. I think it would have been way better for the Clippers. Here's my last one. This is just for you because this is like the ultimate dumb sliding door thing. What if Philly doesn't bail on Al Horford after one year?
- [116:27]
Ryan Rosillo
It was such a bad fit, though, with Embed. It just. It just didn't work.
- [116:31]
Bill Simmons
So can I give you the trades?
- [116:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Because they had to get well this pick, by the way, that we talked.
- [116:36]
Bill Simmons
About before November, November 2020, coming out of the bubble season, heading to the next season, Darrell has just taken over, and Horford's got three years left on his deal. They trade him with Maladone meichic and a 25 first for Danny Green. That was the trade. They put okc. They put okc, puts Horford on ice for a year. They trade him to the Celtics for Kemba and the 16th pick. What happens to the 16th pick? They pass on Sengun and Trey Murphy with the pick they get from Horford and trade it to Houston for two heavily protected Detroit Washington picks. That was kind of a bad trade, but they just could have taken Shengoon or Trey Murphy. Celtics make the 22 finals with Horford. They win the 24 title with Horford, and Philly is now tanking in 25 to keep this pick that they gave up because they decided Al Horford was a bad fit with Joel Embiid, who doesn't fucking play. Guess who you needed a backup center for? Joel Embiid. Tough one.
- [117:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Tough one. But it was ugly. And you felt like at the time it was worth moving.
- [117:51]
Bill Simmons
They had to do something.
- [117:52]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Because it was crazier.
- [117:53]
Bill Simmons
Is that Al Horford had negative value. They're like, you gotta take. If you take out Horford, I need. I need. I. You also have to throw in a pick. You gotta take this guy back. That's how bad it was. And now he's like, one of the most beloved Celtic teammates probably ever.
- [118:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, right. Because it's two transactions there where it's a negative because you're getting off a Kembo's disastrous thing, but you're including the pick to take him back. I'm just so glad that Al got that second act and Boston, because it was this deal where, you know, he's just not going to be appreciated the right way. When he signed it, a max contract, but it's so hard to sign any free agents. Like, you should be thrilled, especially at the time and age that Horford was at. It's like, you can get this guy, like, I hope he says yes to our max offer. And then, you know, look, the counting stats aren't going to be good enough for a lot of fans when it's Al Horford. And then for him to extend it this far, like, even a couple years ago, I was like, when is this thing going to be over? Like, can you really ask to run him this way? And, I mean, thank God for Horford, because without him, I really wonder what they would look like to, you know, have that kind of insurance against Poingis, where you need, you need somebody who's really good to play all those games that, you know, Przingis is going to miss.
- [119:09]
Bill Simmons
You know, it would have been a fun. I mentioned. Forgot to mention one other what if with this. If the, if the, the Horford trade doesn't exist for the Celtics, they're stuck with Kemba for one more year. But they take Trey Murphy with the 16th pick, who's kind of like the perfect interchangeable swing to come in like that. That's another one. But what ifs? Those are our favorite ones. Somehow we went for almost two hours so we don't have to do the thing at the top of the podcast. I think we're good with the Pod March Madness. I'm sure you're enjoying it.
- [119:41]
Ryan Rosillo
Not really.
- [119:42]
Bill Simmons
Not really. Okay.
- [119:43]
Ryan Rosillo
No. Not with St. John's most anticipation I've had for St. John's in 25 years. Already told that story about St. John's last Sunday. I did not leave my apartment and leave guests behind this time around. I knew that shooting thing was probably going to really hurt him. I didn't expect that it was going to happen in the second game against Arkansas, but Lewis was just really bad. And you could even see at some point Edgefort grab him and be like, you need to wake up. You need to wake up. So I think on the whole, you need to look at it this way. If you're a St. John's fan, you've had nothing to be this excited about for a quarter century. Pitino is everything and that as advertised, considering he's won everywhere he's gone. So it's disappointing. But they won the Big east. They beat UConn twice. They're back on the map. They're likely only going to get better until Pitino probably gets back into, like, you know, who knows what job is open to him. You never know because Pitino will just take him. But if he's content, he wants to stay in St. John's I think that they'll be even better. So it was a really fun season for a program that at some point during every year when I would watch them and I wouldn't really talk about it all that much, I just wanted to enjoy it as a fan because there's very few things that I still have in my life that are just about, hey, this is going to be a fan experience. I don't really have to talk about it. I'm not breaking down St. John's after a bunch of those games. It brought me so much joy this year to feel like you were a part of it again, the way I did when I was a kid, the way I was in college, the way I was in my 20s, that there's just too many positives for me to be too upset about losing to Arkansas because they also can't shoot. They were like three 40s out of 364 teams. So you knew this game was coming again. I didn't think it'd be after one round, but do you think he should.
- [121:18]
Bill Simmons
Have done the press conference after and done the. Chris Mullen's not walking through that door. St. John's fans. Bill Wayne's not walking through that door. Walter Perry is not walking through that door. And if he did, he'd be older, gray.
- [121:31]
Ryan Rosillo
I would imagine a lot of guys are going to be walking through that door, though. And if they had. Had. If they had one, even a bench guy who was a five who could stretch the floor a little bit, you know, I know Florida Just escaped UConn today.
- [121:44]
Bill Simmons
Could have been my guy. Brady Dunlop.
- [121:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I know. He got hurt too bad. Yeah, yeah.
- [121:49]
Bill Simmons
They're missing. I'm sure he'll just recruit two shooters now. Stay for a little while, because I think it became a real thing in New York. And I think he's smart enough to realize at the point of his career that he's been in where he's basically done everything and he's made a shitload of money. Like, why not try to be the King of New York for one more year?
- [122:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Because I think he's one of the most crazy competitive people ever. I think there's another level to him that's even beyond the most competitive people that, you know.
- [122:16]
Bill Simmons
I mean, nobody's ever resigned from as much money as he had at stake with the Celtics, where he's just like, I resigned. You could have the money back. That never happens ever. Let's negotiate a buyout for three weeks. He's like, I'm out. Here's my facts.
- [122:30]
Ryan Rosillo
But I don't know, man. I've just seen it too many times. I've seen it too many times with him where he's just like, okay, what's the next challenge? And I think that's just kind of the way he's wired. And it doesn't even matter how old he is, because the guy is arguably the greatest college basketball coach of his era. I know there can be arguments made for other people. I mean, this guy went to Greece After Louisville, and you were like, okay, we're never going to hear from this guy again. And then he shows up because Iona's like, we'll do it.
- [122:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [122:56]
Ryan Rosillo
And then he wins. In two years, he has St. John's as a two seat and winning the Big East. So. Yeah, look, man, I. I would think there'd be a lot of people that would want to go there. The New York thing for St. John's has always been a little difficult because you'd always think this is automatic. But then for the longest time, the New York kids actually didn't want to go there. They wanted to go somewhere else. The setup wasn't necessarily that great. The nil part of it know, you can get into the USC thing. Like, why wouldn't. Why wouldn't Musk be able to just get whoever he wanted to in LA and the marketability of LA and SC and all that stuff, and it's like, man, I actually think it's a little bit more complicated. I'd also argue the SC campus situation is. Is better than maybe St. John's over the years, but I don't care. Like, I'm not. I was bummed out they lost, but I was so happy about this year that I'm going to let that part of it. I think there could be some kind of memo to Spike Lee, though, like, we're good. We don't need you decked out in St. John's gear.
- [123:52]
Bill Simmons
Spike, can we talk? Yeah, just lay back.
- [123:56]
Ryan Rosillo
You don't get. You don't get enough attention.
- [124:00]
Bill Simmons
You know, the Knicks thing's been great for Spike. Yeah, he didn't need another team. He didn't need to add a second one.
- [124:09]
Ryan Rosillo
There's no way he was rooting for St. John's or playing Georgetown is my guess.
- [124:14]
Bill Simmons
Very possible. Rosillo back on your pod on Tuesday?
- [124:21]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, yeah, we're doing. I don't know what we're doing.
- [124:25]
Bill Simmons
All right, well, I'll see you in Boston, Massachusetts this week because we are doing a live, rewatchable show.
- [124:36]
Ryan Rosillo
Which one am I doing? What time?
- [124:38]
Bill Simmons
We're doing good While hunting. Thursday.
- [124:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Thursday.
- [124:41]
Bill Simmons
What time is the theater open Thursday at night? It's sold out. It's at House of Blues. We're doing that, and then I'm making you come to at least a couple Coolidge Corner Theater. You got to come to. You got to come see, like, Heat or Goodfellas or one of those movies, the Town. You got to go see one of them in a theater with us.
- [125:03]
Ryan Rosillo
I got so nervous when somebody sent me the itinerary and they're like, they want me to do the town again. I go, I'm not doing it. That.
- [125:08]
Bill Simmons
No, no, no.
- [125:08]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm never doing.
- [125:09]
Bill Simmons
We're just doing. We're doing good hunting on Thursday.
- [125:11]
Ryan Rosillo
I was on the rewatchables this week. So I got that coming up in the schedule, right?
- [125:16]
Bill Simmons
We had a category in the rewatchables called Blind call to resillo. And every time we called, you didn't answer because you never answer your phone. And then this time I did the call and van goes call back call second time. Or Craig said that maybe he hit his second time maybe to go through. Called, you answered and. And you did about a minute on Blue chips. It was great.
- [125:39]
Ryan Rosillo
I was in the car, too.
- [125:40]
Bill Simmons
All right, I'll see you in Boston.
- [125:42]
Ryan Rosillo
See you.
- [125:42]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rosillo. Thanks to Cerutty and Gahao and Kyle, as always. Don't forget about Prestige TV tonight. Doing a podcast episode on White Lotus. Episode six, new rewatchables coming on Monday. We did Blue Chips Celtic City on HBO and on Max 9pm Monday night, the first bird episode. We're going into the 80s, as you can tell. I enjoyed it. And then on this podcast, I'm definitely going to be having a podcast on Tuesday. Not sure about Thursday yet. So at least Tuesday you're going to have me. I will see you on Tuesday. Must be 21 plus and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopenot.