← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
02:31:40
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus I'm President select states gaming problem. Call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com Coming up, we're going to talk NBA playoffs, television and historical NBA it's all next. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world. The world is your oyster. Lobster Roll Clam chatter with the money you saved, it's your edible metaphor of choice. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network put up a new rewatchables. On Monday night we did Someone to Watch Over Me. It was a one for us, for me and Chris Rya. We have a massive movie coming on Monday. Stay tuned for that. Readjust your schedules. You can watch the rewatchables on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel or as a video podcast on Spotify. You can watch this podcast as a video podcast on Spotify. You can go to The Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well, where we have all the videos stuff from the last six, seven years. This podcast. So I'm taping this before I went to Clippers Nuggets Game 6, which we're going to talk about with Rob Mahoney. We're going to talk about Knicks Pistons as well. Joanna Robinson, his podcast partner on Prestige tv. She came on with me to talk about the year in TV so far because it's been awesome. We tried to do as unspoilery a conversation as we possibly could. And then, last but not least, the great Bob Ryan. I wanted to talk about a whole bunch of historical NBA stuff, 20, 25 versus guys from the past. So he graciously came on and we talked hoops. So it's a big, big podcast. First, our friends from Pearl J. All right, recording the top part of the pod. It's a little after 10:00 Pacific time. I just drove back from the Clippers Nuggets Game 6, which was quite an affair. Rob Mahoney is here. Clippers dominated the entire game. James Harden was magnificent. For three quarters.
- [03:09]
Rob Mahoney
He was.
- [03:10]
Bill Simmons
It looked like they were about to put the game away seven times and it was just going to go into the 17, 18, 19 range. I was going to be able to drive home with six minutes left and start record the pod with you. And then all of a sudden the Nuggets were within nine and they were within six. And the PTSD kicked in. New arena, new energy, really good team. It didn't matter. The crowd got fucking nervous and you could feel it. And I was getting flashbacks to 10 years ago, that Rockets game when they blew that 19 point lead. And they survived it mostly thanks to like a crazy Russell Westbrook play.
- [03:47]
Rob Mahoney
A couple of them. How many excruciating layups is Russell Westbrook going to miss this season?
- [03:52]
Bill Simmons
We just, I went with my friend Mike, who I shared tickets. So we decided he was the MVP of the game because he did good stuff for both teams. Everybody had a positive interaction with him.
- [04:02]
Rob Mahoney
It's true. Our guy balances the ledger. You know, he knows what he's doing out there.
- [04:06]
Bill Simmons
So I, I'll tell you what I saw in person, but what'd you see on tv? What jumped out to you?
- [04:11]
Rob Mahoney
I think the hardened elements for sure, but also like this felt very much like the Nick Btoomb game. A game in which Batum completely changed the energy, completely changed the strategy. Tyloo finally pulled the plug on some of Chris Dunn's minutes in the second half, which the series had been kind of building to that point over the last three games or so. To be honest with you, it felt a little inevitable. But once it happened, you could just, you could feel everything the Nuggets were trying to accomplish. It seemed uphill from that point just from having Nick Batum on the floor. It was crazy.
- [04:40]
Bill Simmons
I don't think Chris Dunn played in the second half. Uh, a lot of the people in my section had been calling for this for a while, just basically go bigger, longer. But the, the thing I wasn't expecting was Batum had a bunch of reps on Jokic, defending him now, we were playing bloodsport rules tonight. I don't know if you noticed. I think there were less than 30 fouls total and it was the same both ways. So that was how it was going.
- [05:05]
Rob Mahoney
True.
- [05:05]
Bill Simmons
I went to the Laker game yesterday. I think there was close to 50 fouls in that game. And everything was a foul. This game, nothing was a foul and everyone knew it. And Jokic, who was getting mauled every time he had the ball, but he was also mauling other people. There was a couple plays where he was just shoving Batum backwards. He was shoving guys in the back to get rebounds. Like every. It was just full on warfare, which I would think would benefit the Nuggets, but I thought the Clippers, with their size and their. And, you know, their physicality kept up with it.
- [05:36]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, you would think so. But honestly, I think when you allow them to be that handsy and that physical, this is the kind of series where if the Clippers can control the glass and specifically keep the Nuggets off the offensive glass for long stretches, it feels like they're in control of these games. Like they're going to win the turnover battle so handily just by the nature of how they play and how Denver plays. If you can keep the Nuggets from clawing back possessions through any other means, you're going to be in pretty good shape to win the game. And so that's one area where the physicality really pays off. Not just, you know, battling Jokic to keep him off the offensive glass, but bumping and holding Aaron Gordon. Bumping and holding Christian Brown. Like bumping and holding Russell Westbrook, frankly.
- [06:12]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So Harden comes out and you see it immediately where Game five, he was terrible. Game six, he's doing that accelerator thing that he has.
- [06:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [06:25]
Bill Simmons
Where it's the herky jerky. I'm going. I'm stopping now. I'm going again. And he just said he was yo yoing a bunch of the Nuggets defenders. And so he's playing well and Kawhi is playing well. And I think they both ended up with almost 60 points combined. Usually they're pretty hard to beat if both of those guys are going. But you watching Harden just toasting everybody in the Nuggets and it's like, where just why don't you do this more often? And then what you realize is he had about 90 minutes of him and by the fourth quarter, that acceleration thing, it wasn't there anymore. And Denver had him figured out. Lot of slow possessions reminiscent of my Celtics. Just a Lot of killing the shot clock. So you can get a terrible shot with three seconds left, like a corner, three with a hand in the face. And the Nuggets kind of clawed back. I. I'm trying to think what to take away big picture, especially after going to two of these games. And I really do think the Clippers are slightly better, and I don't think that's going to mean they're going to win the series.
- [07:21]
Rob Mahoney
It does not.
- [07:22]
Bill Simmons
But I would say if. If it. It's 3 to 3 right now, but it's like 3.3 to 2.7. I think the Nuggets have to be super pumped that they have a Game 7 at home, because I don't. I don't think they've played that well as a team.
- [07:34]
Rob Mahoney
They've certainly had their moments, and they've had stretches where they felt really good and felt like they were clicking and playing their style. This game ultimately did not feel that way. Like, they're still walking the line in so many respects between Jokic being as aggressive as he needs to be to dominate some of these matchups, and particularly when the zone is out there, when Batum is guarding him, ordinarily, when Ben Simmons is guarding him, although now he's kind of out of the series, he's.
- [07:57]
Bill Simmons
Gone like, rip, rip. Ben Simmons done, rip.
- [08:02]
Rob Mahoney
You had a good run, but those are possessions. Jokic just has to bulldoze his way and brute force his way into baskets because ultimately the Clippers are going to play off Russ. If he's out there on the floor, they're going to shrink the floor around him, but take away the passing lanes. And so Jokic is going to have to create tough baskets in crowds in a lot of these situations. And he has to do that against Zoo, too. And for all due credit, Zoo came up with some monster stops down the stretch of this game. Game like game saving plays on the defensive end with all of that contact we've talked about. But he knew the prescription. Like, he knew what this game allowed and he played it to a T.
- [08:36]
Bill Simmons
Well, it was interesting. It seemed like they were going to bench him down the stretch. I mean, but we were watching.
- [08:41]
Rob Mahoney
But Drew was that good. Honestly, it was crazy to think about.
- [08:44]
Bill Simmons
And we were watching on the bench. It was five. It was like five minutes left, there's a timeout, and Zoo wasn't coming back in. And we were like, wow, he's pissed. Like he can't believe he's not coming back in. And then I think the Nuggets scored once And Tyloo was like, all right, get back in. And then he made some big plays down the stretch. But I think this platoon piece is a really nice wrinkle for them on the road in a game seven because couple of things in their favor. One, Denver lost a game seven at home last year, right? It was a year ago. Two, they're a six man team, maybe six and a half. I've actually kind of enjoyed the DeAndre Jordan just Cup of coffee minutes. I think I've actually been pretty effective. But it's a six and a half man team and the six man is Westbrook who giveth and taketh every single game. And I do think if Harden and Kawhi play really well, if they stumbled into something or at this platoon thing, this is a team that could win on the road. And then you think the other hand, you're trusting James Harden in an elimination game seven.
- [09:47]
Rob Mahoney
That's the catch, right? And this is where I struggled to determine down the stretch of this game in the fourth quarter, as you mentioned, the acceleration wasn't there for Harden. The pace he was playing with, just the downhill determination to blow by whoever was in front of him was not there. Is that because he's James Harden at this age, at this point in his career and he doesn't always have it all the time through every game? Or was that them playing, playing the clock basically and trying to coast out a marginal lead against, you know, a run that the like specifically Jokic was pushing the ball up court and they were starting to create some pressure and were they just trying to drain too much clock? I, I couldn't quite tell which one was going on, to be honest with you.
- [10:25]
Bill Simmons
My take would be he's like a pitcher who can get about six innings, maybe six and two thirds. But I thought the fourth quarter, I thought he wore down a little bit. He's making some weird decisions. Like they, you know, they, the Nuggets had gotten a stop. I think there was like a minute and a half left and they inbound the ball and Harden dribbles right into a double team and Tyloo has to burn a timeout. It was like you could see the double team coming seven miles away and he just kind of fog headedly went into it and right across half court too.
- [10:55]
Rob Mahoney
Like literally the worst place to be.
- [10:57]
Bill Simmons
Weird. And he had a, he had a couple of those down the stretch where you're thinking like, is this just an old guy who's feeling the miles of the game or is this the James Harden stuff? We've been watching for his whole career in big spots. Now Kawhi on the other hand has come through in a ton of big spots and I think he had a couple, I got this moments but really this, the Clippers, that, that corner three which Dunn couldn't make, I think he was 0 for 3. And then Batum and Derek Jones together, I don't know what they finished with but they, I look at one of the timeouts and they were I think 4 for 10. And those four threes they hit were the difference basically in the game, right? They're 2 for 10 or 1 for 10. I think the Nuggets probably pulled this up. The other thing, it was a, it was a Michael Porter Jr. Milk carton game. It was like, is he out there? Oh no, there he is. It was one of those. And they finally yanked him. And Russ got all his crunch time minutes. It felt like they were trying to get him going in the second half. And you just could see like it was one of his classic no show games. Like a game one.
- [11:56]
Rob Mahoney
He was probably due for one at this point in the series, to be honest with you. But the, the three is like, yeah, Derek Jones is not going to hit every night in the same way that Chris Dunn won't hit every night and may not even be in the rotation anymore. Batum, I would expect to. But more importantly, I think the, the possessions that led to those threes and led to so many, I would say kind of like random clippers baskets where these like chaotic offensive rebound tipped by Zhou, bounces off three guys hands, goes through a crowd and ends up with a random clipper, those plays can seem really fluky. But when you're the team playing with as much effort as the Clippers are playing with and you're as engaged and you're flying around the core like it felt like they were quicker to those balls in part because they didn't have to push it the other way. So they can fight for it in a different way than the Nuggets can. But I thought they just turned up every single one of those plays that they needed to. And then when you look at the total sum of all them, that's like a 15 point swing in this game ultimately, right? Like the Russ missed layup coming down on the other end and ending up in a Norm Powell 3. What should have been a four point game as a nine point game. That's it right there. Like, like the chaos of these games.
- [12:56]
Bill Simmons
Decides them and there's a real home. I said this Sunday too. There's a real home court with the Clippers that I just can't believe exists. I know, you know, and it's not going to swing a game like they lost game four at home. It's not like it was deciding the game, but there's a real energy. And when, you know, the crowd really likes Norm Powell and when he gets going. Yeah. As they should. But when he hits a couple, it's like an electric shock for the crowd. Like they're really, really. And you. And that's probably when they get the most excited. And then the other one is Kawhi will have a couple moments. He has those stretches where he just like, he'll hit like three shots in a row or he'll hit like two shots and get a steal and block it and he'll just take over the game for like three minutes. And I think the crowd now has a sense for when that's happening. And on the flip side, you know, I think jokic had maybe 18 in the first half and finished with 25. But it's just continually terrifying at top of the key, whatever, sort of. And they're, they're sending one guy, they're sending two guys. Batum's just standing behind him, just whacking him on the side. I always felt like he was going to score.
- [14:00]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
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Bill Simmons
So when every time he didn't score or they turned the ball over or blocked, it felt like almost a miracle. I think in Denver, I, I don't know if they're getting some of those, some of those mauling calls on, on Jokic, but.
- [14:13]
Rob Mahoney
And maybe that's where you don't get some of the Clipper role players delivering in quite the same way. Like when you were saying, you know, the Clippers are so hard to beat when Kawhi and Harden are both clicking at a high level. Obviously. True. Clearly true. Part of the reason it's true is because then it relieves the pressure. So only one of say Norm Powell and Zubots have to be a big time scorer. Right. It's taking, taking some of the edge off those guys where they can just kind of fill it, roll, you go on the road. Let's say Harden and Kawhi play well again, but now all of a sudden all of the role player shots are tougher. Maybe the threes aren't coming quite so frequently. Like that's, that's one of the trade offs that just is really, really tough with road play, especially in a game seven and we're about to get a game seven with two of the best postseason performers in modern playoff history, in Kawhi and Jokic in particular. So whatever reservations we may have about Harden or Michael Porter Jr. Or whoever else is involved in the series, I'm fucking psyched for it. I can't wait.
- [15:01]
Bill Simmons
Well, this was the dream for a bunch of different reasons especially we would not have had basketball on Saturday. It's true.
- [15:08]
Rob Mahoney
Groove chat. Depends on that game setup.
- [15:11]
Bill Simmons
How did that shake out that way? No contingency plans there, where we're just not going to have Games on Saturday, May 3, or whatever day that is. That was a thing that was going to happen. So the over under on that game on FanDuel. I always loved game Sevens, and I think this is going to keep going down. I think the over today was 213. The over for game seven is 204.5. And I bet that goes under 200.
- [15:37]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [15:38]
Bill Simmons
Because game Sevens. Game Sevens. Rock Fights tense, slows down. People don't really take chances in the same way. Every single thing is careful, careful, ugly. You're not getting Derrick Jones hitting four threes in the. In the corner. You're not getting any of that stuff. And, you know, it'll. A lot of it'll depend on how much they're letting both teams get away with. I think the more they officiate the game, the better that probably is for Denver because of the way Jokic plays. Do you think either of these teams is better than Minnesota from what you've seen for two weeks?
- [16:11]
Bob Ryan
Great question.
- [16:12]
Bill Simmons
Now, the Minnesota thing's interesting because the Lakers just might be this, like, incredibly flawed team that made Minnesota look really good. They have no center. They don't really have a point guard. They had Luka gets hurt halfway through game five and just can't guard anybody or bounce off anybody. I thought. I really thought he was a little compromised. LeBron wore out, I think, after four games, and Minnesota might not be as good as they looked last night. Who do you. If you had to rank the three, who. How would you rank them?
- [16:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think I might put the Clippers as the best of the three. Even still.
- [16:43]
Bill Simmons
I think I would, too. Yeah.
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Rob Mahoney
But it's. It's very, very close. And then there's also the question of, like, are we talking about head to head in a series versus sort of in a more abstract, universal sense?
- [16:52]
Bill Simmons
Ceiling upside.
- [16:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, ceiling upside. I think the Clippers are. Are the most versatile of these teams. I think their defense can be as good as Minnesota's defense can be, but they have some. Some Qualities in terms of their half court offense that feel even a little bit more stable to me and a little less matchup dependent. Right. So I think there's just some things with the Clippers that I really, really like and I love Ty Lue pulling the levers behind all of those things. Like I trust the flexibility of that roster and I trust the people making the decisions. Even though one of them is James Harden in a game seven.
- [17:22]
Bill Simmons
Right. Well, and they, I like how they adjust in a game and in a series. Right. They'll try four, five, six things. They'll change rotations. Not in a panicky way. Like, all right, we gave Ben Simmons a whirl and he shot an airball that went sideways and we're not going to see him anymore now. Yeah, Chris Dunn, they're just begging. They're leaving him open by 10ft. Like when it's 10ft, maybe it's time to get somebody else. But I do think they have two lineups that I think really work in a muck it up. Game seven. One was that one we saw tonight where they just went long right with Batum. They had the shortest guy, was hardened out of everybody that was out there. And then that other one was that one they played near the end of game four with the shooters when they did the zone. And it was just the all offense lineup with Bogdanovich. And I think they have their typical lineup, but I think they have two levers to pull if the game gets weird. Whereas the Nuggets, it's basically like let's throw in Westbrook and just kind of see what happens. It's like watching somebody light fireworks in their backyard. It's like just, just don't try not to hit the house.
- [18:26]
Rob Mahoney
Please stay with the tree. Please don't.
- [18:29]
Bill Simmons
Just please shoot this up in the air. And he's their fireworks guy. Other than that, they don't have a lot of moves. It's like, is Jamal Murray going to have it? Is Michael Porter going to show up? Are we going to get good Michael Porter? They don't really know what they're getting.
- [18:40]
Rob Mahoney
Can I talk out of both sides of my mouth about this a little bit?
- [18:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [18:43]
Rob Mahoney
I think the Clippers are the better team and I think they're going to lose in game seven.
- [18:48]
Bill Simmons
So things working against them. Road team, Game seven. James Harden in a huge game.
- [18:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [18:57]
Bill Simmons
Jokic is the best player in the series. Although Kawhi, maybe he has something to say about that. The fact that Porter was so bad today makes me think he's going to be good in Game seven because that's basically what we saw in the Game four that I went to on on Saturday where he was awesome and rebounding and playing with a ton of athleticism. So I went, I bet they were going to subtly call him out and challenge him. And I really like the way Murray is moving and just looks in general like, yeah, if he had played this way in the, in the Summer Olympics, I think Canada would have won the gold medal. It was. He did the opposite.
- [19:34]
Rob Mahoney
But they've been, they've been trying to get him to play that way in the Olympics for a long time.
- [19:38]
Bill Simmons
Right. The ship's probably.
- [19:40]
Rob Mahoney
So I don't think that's going to happen. But I will say this Clippers win is particularly impressive in that way because Jamal came out hot. He was, he was scorching right from the jump. And it's, it's hard in those Jamal Murray games to then put him back in the box to kind of tamp down his, his sort of fire starter scoring. I thought they really got a handle on him. They made him into more of a passer in a way that yeah, opened up some shots for other people but ultimately took some of the momentum out of the Nuggets offense.
- [20:06]
Bill Simmons
So big picture legacy.
- [20:07]
Rob Mahoney
Steph, let's do a little legacy pre game seven legacy.
- [20:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, a little, a whiff of a legacy here. Jokic losing two game sevens at home and back to back years when he's the best player in the world would not be great. Not awesome. The Nuggets blowing two game sevens at home in a row is a pulsating sign that something now needs to happen. Right. They lose this, it's like now something, now we have to do something. Somebody has to go.
- [20:37]
Rob Mahoney
That sign has already been lit. I think it's already been pulsating. You know, we've, we've. I think we've been there for a little while.
- [20:43]
Bill Simmons
It's pulsating, but I'm not sure it's on 24 hours a day. I don't think it's like a diner sign.
- [20:48]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [20:49]
Bill Simmons
A fluorescent diner sign. But I think it does pop on. But yeah, there's multiple guys. I would wonder.
- [20:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [20:56]
Bill Simmons
And if. Even if you work back for keepers, it's basically just Jokic, Murray and Brown and then you could tell me anyone else on the team who knows. And I think Gordon's a keeper, but I think he would be the trade piece if you were going to blow it up. You know what I mean?
- [21:09]
Rob Mahoney
That is fair. I think that was kind of my hesitation point as you were saying. That is like Aaron Gordon, Mr. Nugget, like he is part of the DNA of that team. He's also per the conversation you were having with Zach the other day about Draymond as an amplifier. I think Aaron Gordon is a terrific amplifier. Like he turns the Murray Jokic pick and roll into a three man action. Like really triangulate some interesting stuff out of it. His ability to work the baseline, work out of the dunker spot but also out of the corners, also kind of turning around like random junk offense is really one of the only reasons the Nuggets are alive in this series at this point. And so like I I think they would be very hesitant to trade that away. To say nothing of the world that he gives you on defense in terms of his effort and versatility on that end. So pretty important part.
- [21:52]
Bill Simmons
Four keepers. That's a pretty tough, tough team to change because now we are just in the pure Michael Porter Jr. Trade Machine era. And no really no other lovers. Zeke Najee I don't think the market.
- [22:06]
Rob Mahoney
For Zeke is robust in all due respect to him.
- [22:11]
Bill Simmons
Let's take a break and we'll talk Nick's Pistons really quick. Our friends at FanDuel are getting you in on the NBA action during these playoffs right from the first tip right now all customers get a no sweat same game parlay every single weekend. When you bet the NBA playoffs, just use your token on three plus legs same game parlay or same game parlay plus on any NBA playoff game and you'll get bonus bets back if you don't win Golden State Game six. I'm in. I'm just saying. I would go over on Butler rebounds. I would go over on Steph points. I would go on Golden State Moneyline. That's an example of the same game parlay you can do. There's no better place to bet all the action than America's number one sportsbook. Visit fandom.com BS and get a no sweat same game parlay every weekend in the NBA playoffs. That's FanDuel.com BS FanDuel an official sports betting partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus in President select states or 18 plus in President D.C. optum required minimum three leg parlay required Refund issued as non withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Max refund $5 unless otherwise specified. Restrictions apply including token expiration. See terms@sportsbook.fandom.com, gambling problem. Call 100 GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush deodorant. Remember last year people got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula. One dude even started a petition. What was up with that guy? Well, guess what? ° listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent. And thank God. You've got to love when a brand can own its mistakes. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some, find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. By the way, you should put that on especially. We're about to hit the summer. Getting sweaty in the summers. The original Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us coming back. Nick's Pistons. So I was in the car not realizing that Beyonce was playing at SOFI tonight right next to the Clipper Game. And it took an hour and a half to get to Clipper Game. And my plan was to watch the fourth quarter on my phone at the Clipper Game and I could not do that. But I was listening on Sirius and just kind of playing off the announcers. And it was the Detroit Pistons announcers who were very, very excited. And Jalen Brunson did it again. So what did, what did you see? Because I unfortunately could not watch the game with my eyes. I could hear it. I couldn't watch it. What'd you see? Do you feel better or worse about the Knicks after tonight?
- [24:53]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, better because they won by the skin of their teeth. Better because Jalen Brunson is an amazing crunch time performer. The fact that. So have you seen that play? I assume you've seen the highlight.
- [25:04]
Bill Simmons
I saw the highlight. I watched it. Halftime.
- [25:07]
Rob Mahoney
Genuinely unbelievable how much space Jalen Brunson creates off of pure torque and crossover against one of the best perimeter defenders in the league in Azar Thompson, a guy who had been giving him trouble even in a high scoring night basically throughout the game when he was allowed to play by JB Pickerstaff. And we can talk about that if you want. I'm just like in awe of the space that Brunson creates. And I think this is what fuels some of the conversation we have about him sometimes about the freedom free throw baiting is when he doesn't do it and he didn't. There's no push off on this play at all. Like he creates all of that space on his own. No illegal contact, cans it because he's Jalen Brunson, one of the most clutch players that we have in the league right now. I love watching that guy play. I love watching that guy hoop. And when he's doing it in this way, like he's. He's such an undeniable charismatic basketball force.
- [25:56]
Bill Simmons
And yet heading into that next round, The Celtics are minus 700 favorites. Now, if I told you before the year the Celtics and Knicks are going to play in round two and the Celtics are going to be seven to one favorites, I think we would have thought somebody was hurt on the Knicks. Yeah, we would have assumed Towns, Brunson or Anoby, one of those three, or maybe even Bridges, but some. That was not a healthy five. But it is a healthy five. I mean, I know Brunson's slipping around, but he had 43 tonight.
- [26:25]
Rob Mahoney
Or the other assumption would be that the Cat trade had gone really poorly for some reason, which it hasn't. It's gone mostly quite well. Not so well in this game. I thought this was a game in which it was very much Josh Hart and OG and McHale completely delivered in all of their kind of peripheral capacities. In addition to Jalen Brunson just going balls out as. As far as like shot creation goes. And then Cat is doing a thing we've seen him do before. We're sort of floating around and he's weirdly passive and he's not involved in the offense. And then when the ball finally comes his way, he's shooting shots five feet behind the three point line. It's. And then he fouls out and misses. A crucial free throw is just like a. Not a great display of Karl Anthony Towns as a basketball experience, especially going into a series against the Celtics where he has to be one of the Knicks most important players to actually leverage that matchup. And I really like Kat. I find myself as a cat defender in a lot of debates and conversations. I don't have a lot of faith in his ability to successfully bully and score on and be everything defensively that he needs to be against the Celtics. It's just not. It's not that that matchup does not position him for any kind of success.
- [27:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's a weird one with all the Knicks fans I know, and I'm sure you know a lot of them too. Last year they were just so delighted by that gritty underdog team that they had and they just really responded to those guys. And this year it's a lot of complaining. A lot of complaining about Tibs, a lot of wondering, but. But then also a Real love for Brunson.
- [27:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [27:56]
Bill Simmons
And the fact that at least they got to round two with those five guys healthy, which is, I think was the number one goal, a team that was built to try to beat Boston, even though Boston spanked them all season. I do not have any Knicks fans in my life who are like, watch out for us.
- [28:11]
Rob Mahoney
The vibes are real weird right now.
- [28:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Don't you think?
- [28:14]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, they again, barely survived this series. The Pistons had several chances to potentially win it, several chances to, you know, lead and protect the lead. Malik Beasley almost had a look to tie this game at the very end, but kind of like Gary Trent Jr. The ball away at the final second.
- [28:28]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [28:29]
Rob Mahoney
Like it was, right?
- [28:31]
Bill Simmons
Gary Trent Jr. Wow.
- [28:33]
Rob Mahoney
After that implosion the other day against the Pacers, and unfortunately, it's wrong place, wrong time, but such is life. But I would say as far as the reason that that Celtics optimism and Knicks pessimism exists, in addition to just, you know, not disputing the heart of a champion and kind of the general funkiness that's been going on with New York all year, you could see in this series, it's so clear that the Knicks just do not trust basically anything other than a Jalen Brunson ISO. Like they. They don't run them consistently enough. Maybe a pick and roll if you're lucky. But so much of their offense is geared around Jalen having to create every inch of space against defenders.
- [29:10]
Bill Simmons
And now it's a weird one to me, though. I don't really understand that as a strategy.
- [29:16]
Rob Mahoney
I get it from the sense that Jalen Brunson's an unbelievable ISO scorer. I don't get it in the sense that you just traded for Carl Anthony Towns in the off season, you just traded for Mikhail Bridges in the off season, and some of those guys are good at kind of creating movement within stale sets. But it really doesn't take much of a nudge from the defense to push the Knicks into just ISO, ISO, ISO, ISO repeatedly in a way that is frankly self destructive.
- [29:39]
Bill Simmons
Well, you know who eats, eats that up for breakfast, lunch and dinner. It's the Celtics. If you're just going to do the same thing over again, they couldn't be more delighted. I mean, Brunson had 33 shots tonight and eight free throws. Yeah, 33 shots is for a non overtime game is. Is kind of bonkers. And I just don't feel like they've. I felt it the whole year. I've never felt like they've. It feels like somebody's always losing when somebody else is winning on this team.
- [30:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [30:06]
Bill Simmons
You know, it's like almost like a zero sum game. Brunson gets 33 shots, so that means Towns has to have a shit game basically. And again, I need to watch the second half and study what was going on. But I just. 33 shots is fucking. That's a crazy number. I know we made 15 of them, but that not sustainable. It's Celtics. Celtics have so many guys to throw at him. They're going to be sending two guys at him. They're going to be putting taller guys on him. This is one of the Tatum superpowers, is he's actually really good at guarding guy. I wouldn't be surprised if they threw Tatum at him. You should.
- [30:40]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, based on a Sar Thompson's success in this game, to the extent that there is a Jalen Brunson blueprint and this guy just went for 40 like it's not a wildly successful blueprint. I thought Assar Thompson did a great job with the minutes that he was given and the assignment he was given. And that's kind of the Jalen Brunson story is you try to put as much length as you can get away with. It's just usually wings and bigs have a much harder time hanging with with Brunson's footwork. Not so for the Celtics. Like they have enough bigger Ranger defenders and even the guys who are quote unquote small. If Drew Holiday is healthy enough to play consistently in that series, that's. That's a tough matchup. Derrick White's a tough matchup. They're all tough matchups.
- [31:15]
Bill Simmons
Well, the other thing is though, Tatum's been just playing so great and the Knicks built this team together part partly to go toe to toe with Tatum and Brown. Brown hasn't been as great and I don't think he's 100% healthy. But Tatum is at the complete command of his powers at this point. And you know there's going to be this Anunoby versus Tatum piece and then Bridges will be the second guy. I'm sure they're going to stagger him so that you know there's going to be stretches. Maybe he'll come out earlier in the first quarter and then come back where he's trying to go against some Knicks bench guys.
- [31:49]
Rob Mahoney
What is your level of satisfaction with the Tatum rise? As I would say the preeminent author of the Does Tatum have another gear ongoing conversation?
- [31:58]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I, I feel. I feel vindicated and delighted. I just think he's Been awesome. And there was somebody wrote a piece about Angry Tatum in that Orlando series, and I totally agree. He had developed this little sneer that he has now. It's like, where'd that come from? You're like the nicest guy now. You have like a playoff sneer.
- [32:15]
Rob Mahoney
But, oh, the sneer is worth like 3 percentage points in terms of field goal percentage, easily at least a couple free throw attempts. It's. It's worth its weight in gold.
- [32:23]
Bill Simmons
I. I love his. The bully stuff that he does, which is going to be harder to do against this Knicks team. Sure, they're going to be. I just think they're going to hunt Brunson. This is what the smarter teams who have a lot of options, they're just going to be like, where is he? Let's try to wear him down on this end. They're probably not going to defend him full court, which I think if, like, Indiana played them, I think Indiana would try to wear them down that way and just basically make them work to dribble the ball up. Detroit did some of that too, but.
- [32:51]
Rob Mahoney
You'Ll get some of that with OG Just like denying at various or. Sorry. I think in terms of more Tatum, like, I think there's. There's just so many ways that on both sides, they can deny the stars and force you to go to your second option. And for the Celtics, there's many avenues from that point. For the Knicks, like, you deny Jalen Brunson, you chase him full court. Even if that's what they decide to do, there should theoretically be many entry points for this offense, realistically. And in terms of the way these games play out, they just kind of wait for Jalen Brunson to get open and sometimes he does it.
- [33:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that's not. If the Celtics are healthy, that's not going to work. The question would the fear for the Celtic fans is, how healthy are we? What's going on with Drew Holiday? Are they playing it super safe, or is this a guy who's in his mid-30s now who has a hamstring issue and this is going to bug him the whole time? How bad is Jalen's knee? When's the next Porzingis injury? Like, there's, you know, getting the. Getting the rest and not having to play a game six against Orlando, I think was pretty good. If I'm a Knicks fan, I'm really concerned that it was that much of a slugfest, knockdown, drag out back and forth series with Detroit, you know, and I know that we talked about them A bunch on your pod. On my pod. Like we all respected Detroit. The advanced metrics are very favorable. They turned into be a good regular season team. But they're so limited in a series like that. Like the guys that they had versus the guys the Knicks had. I just don't feel like the series should have been this nail biter for six games. And I, I, I don't think they should have been able to go in there and win a game 5 at MSG. I don't think this game tonight should have come down to Brunson having to be like heroic. Like the Knicks should just be better than that team. So that's yes. And I think some of it is coach related which we've talked about on all of our ringer pods. Like I just don't think Tibbs has a feel for this team. This doesn't feel like it Thibodeau team in my opinion.
- [34:43]
Rob Mahoney
I think all of that's true about the Knicks. I just don't want to diminish the fact that the Pistons grabbed those games, like grabbed those wins and nearly grabbed this one. And I think that that's a team that has a lot to be proud of in terms of the way they acclimated themselves to this series, to this dynamic. You're right. They don't have all of the options that the Knicks do. They don't even have, I would say, you know, the high, the highest end experienced playoff shot creation yet. I thought Cade was really, really solid in the series overall. But you can see a bit of a distance between him and Jalen Brunson. Right. You can see where Cade still has to go as a young creator and that's really exciting. And you can see, you know, what a Sar Thompson can be. You can see overall for a team that was missing true two crucial rotation players, right. Isaiah Stewart barely played in this series. Jaden Ivey did not play in the series. Like that's a huge deal and I think saps the Pistons ultimately of their hopes of being more dynamic. And then, then you get into a position where it's like when push comes to push comes to shove, like, I don't know, Tim Hardaway Jr. Like Malik Beasley, these guys are your, are your kind of security blankets.
- [35:42]
Bill Simmons
Tim Hardaway didn't play in the finals last year. He was on a team that made the finals and did not play.
- [35:48]
Rob Mahoney
And for good and fair reason. And yet in this game it's like he's essential personnel because of who the Pistons have on their roster. And so that's stuff that will gradually improve over time as they sort of like, start to replace some of the archetypes of these supporting players and maybe replace them with, you know, Jaden Ivey coming back and having another great season. You know, like, there's young talent, Ron Holland, who kind of got, I would say, kind of filtered out of the rotation by the end, maybe he starts to pop in a different way. These are all different in terms of what they're bringing to the table, but I like where the Pistons are headed.
- [36:17]
Bill Simmons
Kind of like a stealth Durant team. Wouldn't say he was the favorite, but it's a really interesting one if you're going to try to figure out a Durant destination and that the price gets a little lower, but you just kind of put him in the Tobias Harris spot. I mean, they're not close to winning a title, but you think, you think.
- [36:33]
Rob Mahoney
Tobias Harris for Kevin Durant's a pretty solid upgrade.
- [36:36]
Bill Simmons
Well, I'm, yeah. With like, about how many picks would have to be in this. But if they're trying to get picks, I, you know, if I were the Pistons, I would probably try to do what some of these other teams in that position have done in years past is, hey, it was great. We got our playoff taste. Let's try not to get crazy. Let's do this again. And then maybe two years from now, you know, they're probably hoping. The story's already starting to come out about how the Celtics. This is kind of a last run with the roster they have and expect some trades. You know, I'm not surprised that came out. I'm not surprised people did the math and was like, yeah, this is probably not sustainable. The timing of it was a little weird. I was wondering why it became a story when it was. It's been a story all year. For anybody who follows the Celtics in any capacity, the roster is going to cost, like, 250 million extra. Yeah. If they trade some salary, I don't know who it's going to be. So there's a little bit of this last dance run just with this, this specific group. And it might just be one guy, but I, I, I. Bob Ryan's coming on this pod later, and we were talking about, like, just what a popular Celtics team this is with the, with the fans, like, just a bunch of, like, dudes. There's no, like, the one guy like, oh, man, that guy drives me crazy. It's like it doesn't, doesn't really exist. So one last thing with Celtics, Knicks.
- [37:58]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [37:58]
Bill Simmons
You would think There would be all these great storied battles over the years and there just hasn't been. You know, I was too young to remember when they played in the 70s. I do remember the 84 series, which was Bernard versus Larry, which is. Was just awesome. Bernard basically beat this awesome Celtics team by himself for three games. They beat them in 1990. I think they played maybe in 2000.
- [38:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I want to say we got a. Didn't we get a mellow tail end of.
- [38:28]
Bill Simmons
It was the tail end of the KG Pierce era?
- [38:30]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [38:31]
Bill Simmons
But for two teams that have been in the NBA since it began, that's pretty crazy. It's fucking nuts that they have no play out because like, oh, what a rivalry. It's like this really isn't a rivalry. But this. This is probably the closest the two teams have been. From a talent standpoint, I would say maybe 84. I thought the Celtics were way more talented, but Bernard was maybe the second best player in the league that year. So that this. It'll be fun to see it. I think it's gonna be really hard ticket to get in New York. Sure there'll be some energy behind it. And from an ESPN standpoint, they lost the Lakers, but they get. We just move right to the Knicks. Right. We move right to Knicks content. What happens? I don't know what they do.
- [39:10]
Rob Mahoney
You don't think Clippers and Nuggets are moving the needle in that way?
- [39:13]
Bill Simmons
I don't. I. Well, they'll probably. They'll get five more days of LeBron.
- [39:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [39:17]
Bill Simmons
I'm fully expecting from somebody from the Lakers. LeBron is open to resigning but wants to make sure Luca is committed to being shaped next year. I'm wa for that story. I'm on pins and needles. Just sneak that one out.
- [39:29]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [39:30]
Bill Simmons
I am waiting for the Austin Reeves. If they have to trade Austin Reeves to get a big guy. You know, you saw what happened with Rudy Gobert. We got to do it. I'm waiting for that one. Maybe it'll be trading for Rudy Gobert. Who knows?
- [39:45]
Rob Mahoney
You just laid out like four different news cycles. I think we're good through June, to be honest with you.
- [39:50]
Bill Simmons
We're good at least around two with all the site. I forgot the. Will LeBron retire or not? We're going to get that one. He might. He might not. Now he's thinking about it now. He might. It's. It'll just. He'll be in the news over and over again. Or we'll get the. Will LeBron accept a minimum salary to go play For a contender, that'll be two days. So yeah, ESPN will be fine for, for, for probably another two weeks because they're. What they're not going to do is talk about can okc go 16 and oh in the playoffs or.
- [40:17]
Rob Mahoney
Sure. Well. And meanwhile, here on the ringer, here's another segment about the Boston Celtics. You know, we all have counterpoints.
- [40:23]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's a great point. But out of all these four series, what's the best one? Like, we don't know who's coming out of okc. Denver. It's probably Gold State Minnesota. Right. If that's, if that becomes the series just from a star power intrigue standpoint.
- [40:42]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that would be a juicy one. I honestly, like, this is maybe an unpopular pick, but I'm actually really excited about Cavs Pacers. I think that's going to be a really fun, really competitive series.
- [40:54]
Bill Simmons
Are you with me on don't count the Pacers out for a massive upset.
- [40:57]
Rob Mahoney
Corner or no, I'm basically always on don't count the Pacers out corner. So, yeah, I think that has to be taken into account. But like, there has not been a bigger buzzsaw in these playoffs than the Cavs in the first round. So I'm eager to see what they get against better competition. Of course, I'm eager to see what OKC's got when they have to play someone who's actually going to put up some resistance. So honestly, it's been a pretty fun, if a little bit turbulent of a first round. Second round is going to have some real juice to it though.
- [41:24]
Bill Simmons
Indiana is plus 410 in that series and for the series spread, yeah, Cleveland. Cleveland will win in a sweep. 141 or 4 2. That's minus 188. I think the Pacers are going to hang in this series. Been saying it for weeks. I think, I really think they have. I think they're really hard to play and I think they really know who they are and they have an identity and, and they're going to be dangerous. I can I get. I know you already got your Minnesota Lakers thoughts out. Can I just tell you how weird it was to go to that game last night and to experience Rudy Gobert in person, who was awesome, certainly the best game he's ever had. But just to watch the Lakers not try to solve the problem. This is like a, we win. If we lose this game, we go home and they're just getting annihilated on the boards. And they were just like, even the guys on the court, like they weren't playing a center, but it's, you know, Luca, Luca. It seemed like Luca was 100% healthy, but Rui and LeBron is basically, if they weren't getting rebounds, guess what? Nobody else is getting a rebound and they're 15ft from the basket. It was. It was one of the weirdest games I've ever been to. I've never seen a team in a must win situation just let the same thing happen over and over and over again.
- [42:47]
Rob Mahoney
Well, there was the refusal on J.J. redick's part to put, say, Jackson Hayes, whatever big you would prefer on their roster back in the game, which the.
- [42:54]
Bill Simmons
Corpse of Alex Lennon there, at least, like he's taking up space.
- [42:58]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not going to advocate for putting any of those guys in in particular. I'm just saying he refused to do it. And yeah, the fact that the players on the court, specifically the forwards, were just like not putting a body on anybody, including Rudy Gober, really, anybody at all, just standing there as rebounds came down, like both of those things can't be true. Like, one of the sides has to budge. Either you put in bigger players or the kind of bigger wings you have have to rebound. But this is the trouble.
- [43:22]
Bill Simmons
They were. They were scrambling and gang rebounding and really being wary of it in this game. They weren't. I thought the Mac. When Maxi Cleaver came in, I was with my friend Chen. First of all, I. I honestly didn't know he was on the team. Yeah, I didn't know, like, he was dressed for games and he came in and I was like, is that Maxi Cleaver? Cleaver.
- [43:44]
Rob Mahoney
And then came off the medical table cleared to play, and they're like, yeah, okay, here you go. Here's five minutes.
- [43:49]
Bill Simmons
See if you can knock down that. Minnesota was like that. That's great. Yeah, knock yourself out over there. We were just like, wow. And he was out there in the second half of the game. Very, very strange going, obviously going back to that Mark Williams trade not going through, but I don't know he makes a difference. I just feel like that's a bad matchup for them all the way around.
- [44:11]
Rob Mahoney
Mark Williams thought he made a difference. I don't know if you saw him racking in on the action, which I appreciate, but I don't think he's changing that game. I don't. I don't think anybody on their roster, if they had subbed in Alex Len or subbed in Jackson Hayes, I don't think it's materially changing the fact that Rudy Gobert was putting just about everybody who would get close to him in the rim and nobody would really get close to him by maybe the third quarter at best.
- [44:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, it was also like such a massive rollover because Minnesota should have won that game by 35 points. They couldn't make a three.
- [44:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [44:40]
Bill Simmons
All the threes were wide open, all of them. And guys weren't like scrambling. They weren't like, you know, road. It was just, it was such a weird one. And then the way JJ acted the, that 48 hour stretch, it's like, wow, that feels like he's unraveling. I thought the whole thing now you go into this off season, it's like LeBron's going to be now officially in his 40s.
- [45:02]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Bill Simmons
You know, really the only move is Reeves. That was weird. But for Minnesota, Minnesota Golden State. Minnesota probably has the, the, the punchers chance against OKC because of the Edwards piece and the defense. But I, I'm still on. Clippers have the best chance to beat OKC island and they're probably going to lose game seven.
- [45:24]
Rob Mahoney
It's weird like that. I think the trouble with Minnesota too and I like, I'm a believer in the Wolves. How could you not be after the display they just put on? Julius Randall played unreal. Rudy Gobert obviously showed up in the way he did. And Ant has just been developing as a playmaker right before our eyes. There's also some stuff happening on the periphery. You mentioned the three point shooting where like Nikhil Alexander Walker, low key, cannot hit a shot. Dante DiVincenzo cannot hit a shot.
- [45:47]
Bill Simmons
He was awful yesterday. Yeah.
- [45:49]
Rob Mahoney
Like that stuff. It either will come home to roost all playoffs long or it's going to swing back hard the other way. And I think that's the question if you're picking the Wolves as one. One of the definitive best teams left in the bracket is are you betting on those guys to hit? And I think it's realistic given both of their pedigrees to say that they will. But there's a lot riding on them. And Jaden McDaniel is also, we should say, being dared to shoot yet again. And he will be again just by nature of the way that team is built. He's going to have to knock down some shots in addition to everything else he's doing.
- [46:17]
Bob Ryan
Yeah.
- [46:17]
Bill Simmons
The one thing I feel like with Minnesota is when McDaniels is good, they feel almost unbeatable.
- [46:22]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. And he's finding more ways to be good. Like he's finding more ways to leverage his size to get inside to make plays for other people. It's been an awesome Jaden McDaniels yesterday.
- [46:31]
Bill Simmons
They hung him on a foul with a minute into the game. Yeah, I was like, okay, here we go. Then he had a second foul. I was like, all right, good, good job. You got him out of the game.
- [46:40]
Rob Mahoney
And then he had 40 of the 50 fouls that you mentioned.
- [46:43]
Bill Simmons
They. They were calling him on hand checks, which is so fun. Like, if he had played in the. He would have loved playing in the game. I just, he would have been clubbing people. I think, though, the last point I'll make on Minnesota, driving home, I was listening to Gobert being interviewed and he was, they asked him like, hey, Edwards was over 10 or 11, would you. Would you think of his game? Because he'd still had an impact on a game. And. And he was like, I don't care if he was over 60. He made all the right plays. And that's all we want him to do, is he made the right decision. The ball didn't go in, but he was still making the right decisions. I thought that was a really good point because I thought last year in the Dallas series, when he got a little discombobulated, then he stopped making the right plays. I always felt like he was doing the right thing or had the right idea most of the time. Yesterday he just couldn't make a shot. And that, that I think is the difference between him last year and this year.
- [47:35]
Rob Mahoney
I think there was a stretch of maybe three or four possessions where he settled on threes consecutively when. When the Wolves really needed baskets. And it was like, he's rocking a little bit off the axis here, but then he stabilized, then they stabilized. Then he's, you know, he's getting Julius Randle involved. He's making this crucial setup to Mike Conley in the corner for a game, securing basket. And also, there's also the thing where it's like, when your game plan is so clearly to work the offensive glass, like hell. The shots he was taking are not necessarily bad shots. Like sometimes, sometimes his role is to force things so that he doesn't have to call Rudy Gobert up for a high screen so Gobert can stay low and get those rebounds. Like there's some trade offs involved in that, obviously. And you would love, you know, when he gets Luka, an injured Luka, one on one to see him blow by him. But the Lakers were doing kind of soft doubles all night. They were trying to throw things at him to throw him off Balance. And I thought. I thought he mostly aced every test, some occasional blips. But really, really impressive stuff from Ant.
- [48:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. When you think he's, you know, not Even in his mid-20s yet, it's pretty good. Well, lot of good. A lot of good setups. Plus, we got a Game seven, Rob, so group chats going right after, like, Sunday morning.
- [48:46]
Rob Mahoney
Right. Right after the game, I assume on Saturday. We'll see. We'll get it up as soon as we can.
- [48:51]
Bill Simmons
I'm excited to hear it. Rob Mahoney, thanks for. Thanks for popping on. Appreciate it.
- [48:55]
Rob Mahoney
Thanks, Bill.
- [48:56]
Bill Simmons
All right, Joanne Robinson is here from the Ringer. We. We were, like, basically married to White Lotus for eight weeks together. Eight weeks? Yeah. Me, you, and Mallory. Then we did a couple rewatchables. We did. Can't hardly wait. We had our first fight. A lot of good stuff happened.
- [49:13]
Joanna Robinson
Right. And then. And then divorce, I guess.
- [49:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it was. I guess trial separation.
- [49:17]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [49:18]
Bill Simmons
So last year was rough for us with television because we had the writers strike. They were moving stuff to 2025. And this year has been a pretty great run, especially for, like, the Ringer and for our pods where we had, like, White Lotus and Severance and a bunch of different things. And now we're in. Last of Us. We have this Jon Hamm show. We have the studio. We found out. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but the bear is going to be mid June now, so there's shit's going down. What's the biggest TV storyline in 2025 to you?
- [49:50]
Joanna Robinson
The biggest TV storyline of 2025, I think, is that the good IP is actually delivering. Because I know you didn't mention Andor, and I'm not gonna try to make you talk about Star wars on this podcast, but Andor is firing on all cylinders. The Star wars show and the last of us is incredible. And so I think. And Severance delivered on its second season. So I think the ways in which we're used to watching this stuff drop off in second seasons after, like, a big first season hasn't really been the case this year so far. And that's been really exciting to know.
- [50:25]
Bill Simmons
Well, it also feels like the. The whole infrastructure of an episode happens. We talk about it, we go backwards, we go forward to the next one. What's going to happen? Oh, new episode. This happened.
- [50:37]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [50:37]
Bill Simmons
It still feels. I was really worried the binge model was going to ruin it. And I think it has ruined it in some cases.
- [50:42]
Joanna Robinson
It has.
- [50:43]
Bill Simmons
Like, your friends and neighbors could easily Just you could have put those all up at once and just had me binge them. But for the most part that week to week structure still works. I know for us with White Lotus, like we got so much content out of it. It was great.
- [50:56]
Joanna Robinson
It's Apple and HBO and FX are really like holding it down on the week to week front in that way and Paramount as well. But yeah, in the binge model. I say this all the time, but yeah, if White Lotus had been a binge drop or if your friends and neighbors, the show that you texted me the other day was making you giddy was a binge drop, then we wouldn't get to talk about it for as long as we do and dig into it as deeply as we do. The bear is still a binge drop. That's always confusing to me. I don't know why that's not a week to week and Andor once again to come back to this, but Andor is dropping on three episode chunks every week. So it's going to be over in two weeks. And that's wild to me for a 12 episode season. So it's, it's, it's mixed bag. But I do think that people are finding more and more that if you want your show to, to really take root in the conversation with something like White Lotus, when we're all watching together, when we're speculating together, that's the way you really permeate pop culture in the larger conversation without even the help of ip. White Lotus being sort of like an original concept from Mike White. So.
- [51:57]
Bill Simmons
Well there. So there's three versions of these shows, right? The first version is like what we went through a White Lotus. What you're doing now, last of us, you watch it, you probably watch it a second time. You prepare all your thoughts and takes and you really gotta dive in. Then you wait for the next week, try to anticipate that's one. The second version of that is probably the same thing, except maybe you don't need to watch it twice. Three times. Like for me, Landman was like that where I really looked forward to it every week and knew what it was. Then there's that third version. That's a real sweet spot this day and age, which I think your friends and neighbors fits into.
- [52:29]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, tell me about it. Tell me why this is a third. This is not.
- [52:33]
Bill Simmons
This is why I was getting.
- [52:34]
Joanna Robinson
This is deeper than Landman for you. What is it?
- [52:36]
Bill Simmons
No, no, no. Landman was good at this too. I don't have to completely pay attention the entire Time.
- [52:43]
Joanna Robinson
Okay.
- [52:44]
Bill Simmons
I can kind of do something else. Somebody in my call. I missed five minutes. I'm probably not missing that much. It's a show that knows what it is. I like hanging out for an hour. I wouldn't watch it twice. Probably would never watch this season again. I like, I'm enjoying the hanging.
- [53:01]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:02]
Bill Simmons
It's like this new version, like a hang show. You know what I mean?
- [53:04]
Joanna Robinson
A good hang show. I love to know that you're somewhat second screening it. I think what's so telling about your Friends and Neighbors is like we are covering it on the prestige TV feed, but we're probably only going to drop like 30 minute episodes about it because there isn't like, we're not going to go deep into the metaphors of your Friends and Neighbors. It doesn't have that meat on the bone. But it is fun to talk. There are great performances in there. It's fun to look at and it's fun to think about. It's a real throwback show. We've been comparing it to stuff like Weeds or Breaking Bad and stuff like that. And so it feels like a really vintage kind of show. Dropping surprisingly in 2025. Apple's doing all kinds of surprising things. The studio is really, really hitting for me as well.
- [53:51]
Bill Simmons
Well, I want to talk about the studio, but yeah, you're right. Your Friends and Neighbors was probably like a 2012 Showtime show.
- [53:57]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, exactly. It was definitely a Showtime like package.
- [53:59]
Bill Simmons
With the Affair. It's like the affair at 9:00 and then your friends and neighbors at 10.
- [54:04]
Joanna Robinson
Californication sort of era.
- [54:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's got the model of a lot of those type of shows where Ham is the star. It's then you have like the second star who's like, oh, I've always liked them. In this case, Amanda Pete. It's like, oh, great to see her again.
- [54:18]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, exactly.
- [54:19]
Bill Simmons
I'm glad she's still in stuff, but for the most part not. It's a cast of, you know, that guy's and that ladies and people. You're like, I know. I know this person. But from where?
- [54:29]
Joanna Robinson
I can't even remember a huge roster of side characters. I did have a question for you about your Friends and Neighbors. I was curious about when we were talking about it as this kind of throwback show. I was remembering that when shows like Homeland or the Good Wife came out, there was all this conversation about the teen characters and how annoying people found the teen characters. How do you think, what do you think about the kids on this show and your friends and neighbors.
- [54:50]
Bill Simmons
It's so funny you asked this. I just was talking to somebody about this who works in TV and who had kids around the same age as my kids. And we're just like. It's just amazing how TV gets this wrong because you would figure some of the people that write or run shows have teenage kids or just had them or in the middle of having them and they just don't get it. They're all kind of. Anytime you have a female daughter, like a 15 year old daughter character, they're always super snarky and angry. They have no other dimensions other than that. The boys are always crazy awkward. And that's just kind of what they've decided all the teen characters on all these shows should be. And I don't really fully understand it.
- [55:34]
Joanna Robinson
What do you think they should be?
- [55:35]
Bill Simmons
Like more people that I could see. I judge it by the kids that pass through my house. Right?
- [55:43]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [55:43]
Bill Simmons
Like my son. I'll just have four people over randomly and I'll be like, hey, what's happening? You know, or the same thing when my daughter was living with us in high school. And I don't know, they're just kid. I think teens are way more interesting than we see on tv. And maybe, maybe they don't know how to write it.
- [55:58]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, I really miss when you and I both enjoy. I miss when teens were played by 30 year olds like on 90210 or the OC. Now they're casting actual teenagers. And it highlights even more how they're getting it wrong. Because when they cast 30 year olds, we're all like, we know we're not watching actual teenagers. We're watching like an invented fantasy version of a teenager. But when you cast an actual teen, I'm like, this doesn't bear any resemblance to any teen I know in real life. Does any show get it right? Is anyone getting it right?
- [56:24]
Bill Simmons
Well, the funniest is Landman because I think the lady who plays the teenager is like 29 in real life. But he's also in 1923 in a completely different role. But.
- [56:37]
Joanna Robinson
No one's getting it right. You guys. College girls.
- [56:41]
Bill Simmons
I think the youngest son on White Lotus. I thought Lockie was a pretty interesting character that had some dimensions. Now he's probably. He was heading to college, right? He was like a senior.
- [56:51]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. He was like 19. Yeah, 18. 19.
- [56:54]
Bill Simmons
Well, we were talking about when we did. Can't hardly wait, like how many of those archetypes they either got wrong or there was way more. There or stuff they missed. I just think Hollywood's always had issues with this.
- [57:05]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, it's true. Well, I'm glad to know that you think that Lockie. A character who gave his own brother a handjob on the White Lotus. Spoilers.
- [57:14]
Bill Simmons
White Lotus is. Maybe that part was unusual. Yeah, but just like, a sense of, like, I think when, you know, really depends on the year. But kids are. When they're 15, they're trying to be 17, right?
- [57:27]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [57:27]
Bill Simmons
When they're 17, they can kind of see 19 and 20 in college, and they want to be adults, but they're not there yet, and it's super awkward. And then when they're 19, which is another age that's in these shows a lot, that's when they become irrational confidence adults. Like my daughter now, who thinks she knows everything, and she's like, I know. And it's like, you don't know anything, but it's weird. They can never nail it. And I think a big part of it is they have tried to zag and cast the people that are more age appropriate. And then you're heading into a whole other thing where you don't know if you're getting good actors or not.
- [58:01]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, that's true. My favorite thing that TV writers now and probably always have done is, yeah, they did this with, like, Dylan on 90210 is they give the teen characters their own. The pop culture interests of their generation. You know, so, like, if you watch Euphoria and all those kids go to a Halloween costume party and they're all, like, dressed as, you know, Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet or, you know, like, just pop culture references that are not of their time. No matter how much kids, teens are, like, obsessed with the 90s right now. It's just clear that the writers room are like, this is what we think is cool. And the way we code our coolest characters is to give them interest in pop culture from the past. And that's. Those are the cool characters on your show, like Dylan, et cetera. And I just think. I just think that's really funny. They're not even trying.
- [58:53]
Bill Simmons
The Homeland daughter was really when. That's the fork in the road for how we did this. But, I mean, your friends and neighbors. The best thing is it's basically a Jon Hamm show. And if you like Jon Hamm, you're gonna like the show. And I like Jon Hamm, and I support all Jon Hamm projects, but this is like, Jon Hamm just cook. You're gonna You. You ran out all your money, Your wife's sleeping with this other guy. You're paying. You're paying alimony to her. You just got fired for no reason. Just start stealing from people.
- [59:22]
Joanna Robinson
You know, I. I love a heist, personally. I have a question for you. As you know, I'm covering this with Rob Mahoney on the Prestige Feed, NBA, you know, expert, what do you think of the. Of the basketball player on this show?
- [59:37]
Bill Simmons
I have some questions. I have some thoughts. There was a pretty strange party basketball scene they had in one of the episodes that I was like, well, this will never, ever in a million years happen. But I do. I do think some of the dynamics they have are pretty fun about, like, the country club dynamics, the paying, paying some sort of private coach. How much should we spend? Do we need to get another guy? We've got to get our daughter in college to play this sport. Like, some of that's pretty good. And then the dynamics of when you have this big extended circle of friends, which I'm certainly. I've had different versions of that as I get older.
- [60:14]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [60:15]
Bill Simmons
One divorce or separation can be such like, a catalyst for conversation, whether they're in the room or not. For people, how do you bring it up or not? How do you talk about it? Do you take sides? So they've hit some pretty good stuff, but this, to me, is like a typical Apple show. It's like the morning show. It's just these kind of fun shows that you have to watch kind of one episode of and you get it.
- [60:38]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I was thinking about Bad Monkey. Similar, like in that vein, in that it's like, it's such a showcase for Vince Vaughn and then everything else that's happening around him. But, like, if you love Vince Vaughn, you're going to love Bad Monkey, and if you love John on him, you're going to love your friends and neighbors.
- [60:51]
Bill Simmons
But that's kind of the Apple model, right? The person to put in the square picture with the title of the show. And you always know who it is. Right. It's like, oh, Vince Vaughn. Okay, what's he up to? And sometimes it doesn't work where it's like Billy Crystal. He's a psychiatrist and he looks sad. I don't. I'm going to stay away. I don't. No, thanks. But that's what they do.
- [61:11]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, yeah, the studio is riding a lot on, you know, do you like Seth Rogen? Here's the studio. But I think the studio has much, much more on its mind to say about the world it's existing in. Are you. I. You and Sean and I talked about the studio early this season. How are you enjoying as you now that you've seen more?
- [61:30]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, we did the Prestige. We did the first, like, I think three, and I think we were all really interested in it. You guys liked it a little more than I did. I thought the energy was definitely a choice. And they've kept that energy every episode. It's really interesting. It's, you know, to me, it's like the rehearsal or some of these other things where people decide creatively we're going for it, and you're either gonna be for the ride or you're against it. And they have a lot to say about the studio system, why things are made, why choices are made. They're trying to satirize and parody everybody at the expense of where sometimes you watch and you're like, ah, come on, that wouldn't happen. But I don't think they care. Right. So it's a fun hang. I think it seems like the younger generation, like, Craig Horlbeck loves it. Yeah, right. So there's a certain generation that isn't familiar with the player. And some of the other times that people have made shows like this. So for the first time, they're seeing a show like this, and they're like, this is great.
- [62:30]
Joanna Robinson
Do you feel like, oh, you don't even know the player. You don't know what you're like Larry.
- [62:34]
Bill Simmons
Sanders or a lot of these. It's dipping and pulling from a lot of things I've already seen. So I kind of know. Like, I don't find it that surprising, but I still glad that exists. So what do you think? What's been your take through seven episodes?
- [62:48]
Joanna Robinson
I love it. And there's been moments that I've been really surprised by. Like, I think the biggest moment that surprised me was it's not an episode that I loved overall, but the fact that they got Olivia Munn. I'm sorry, Olivia Wilde. I'm Olivia Munn's obviously on your Friends and Neighbors. Olivia Wilde to sort of parody herself after having been under such scrutiny for her work as a director. I thought that was pretty interesting that they had that conversation with her and was like, look, it'll be great for everyone. You'll show that you have a sense of humor about yourself, and we'll just go ahead and do it. I think that's always really fun when you can imagine the conversations that they had with the person who's playing themselves and say, look, everyone's gonna really love that you did this, that you. That you know, that you let them know that you know what they're all talking about. And you showed an even more extreme version of it on screen.
- [63:37]
Bill Simmons
And that's been the blueprint for all of these things, where they were always able to get good cameos that are smartly thought out. Where it's like, here's this public perception of you. We're going to twist this a certain way and try to use this. And this will be a win for you. And then usually it is Ron Howard, maybe that in episode three.
- [63:54]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, it works. But the rest. And I think it's really interesting to think about, to your point, about, like, the rehearsal or the studio. I complain all the time. All of us who cover TV complain all the time that there's too much television. And there is. There are tons of shows that go unwatched, unnoticed by people. But the advantage of having so much television is that people will. Studios will greenlight something that seems really niche or really odd or really experimental, like the rehearsal, and just say, go for it. We have the space. We have the time. We think we have the money. Now they're realizing they don't have all the money in the world, but we think we have the money to try this. Let's try it. And when it hits, it's extraordinary that something like the rehearsal exists. And you don't get that in the sort of TV landscape that you and I grew up in.
- [64:44]
Bill Simmons
That's a great point. Well, I feel like I think about the studio and what's missing for me. Cause I've watched every episode. I look forward to it. I don't always love it, but I'm glad it exists. Yeah, I don't like Seth Rogen's character. I'm not rooting for him. I like how he's drawn out. I get it. I totally get the character. But you're making him the hero of a show, but he's not a hero, which I think is the point. But it's like I'm seven episodes in. It's like, am I rooting for this guy to flame out or figure out, like, oh, I can actually use my powers to save Hollywood? And maybe the show hasn't figured that out, but we're on this journey with him, and I don't know what the journey is, and I'm not sure what my role is. Am I rooting for him or against him? I don't know if the show's figured it out.
- [65:34]
Joanna Robinson
It's Funny to hear you describe that because I am rooting for him. But I hear what you're saying and that he's a doofus. He's like a fuck up, like all this sort of stuff like that. So. But that's the exact same journey I'm on with your Friends and neighbors where I'm watching John Hamm's character Coop, and I'm like, am I supposed to like this guy? Am I supposed to be rooting for him? I don't mind the crime. I don't mind the B and E. I love a heist. But like, he seems like he was a bad husband and a bad dad and, you know, like kind of a callous dude. Am I supposed to be wanting him to succeed or wanting him to get busted? What am I. What am I looking for inside of this show? And that doesn't like, it doesn't have to be someone a character doesn't have to be someone I'm rooting for. They just have to be someone I'm interested in. You know what I mean? And so if you're interested in what Seth Rogen is doing in the studio, for me, that can carry me beyond whether or not I want him to succeed or not. Do you know what I mean?
- [66:28]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it's weird, both shows, even though I think the studio probably put a little more thought into everything it's trying to do than your friends and neighbors. But I think both of them are trying to say something that's not about the main star. Right. The studio is pretty obviously trying to make all of these points about. This is why we all complain about Hollywood all the time. This is the thought process. These are the people that are responsible for the choices of the shows and movies that make you bad. When you don't understand why there's not more good stuff. This is why you're seeing all of it right now. So I get that these are the.
- [67:02]
Joanna Robinson
People who don't know how to write. Teenagers on your favorite TV show.
- [67:05]
Bill Simmons
Exactly.
- [67:06]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Yeah.
- [67:06]
Bill Simmons
Your Friends and neighbors, I think, is way less interested in the Jon Hand piece and more interested in this whole culture of wealthy people, Their relationship with one another, their possessions, and the fact that they have stuff and they don't even realize stuff's gone when they're just collecting things. They don't even know what it is. They have a basketball court. They don't use it. They want their daughter to play tennis because it'll get her into college and it'll be a good thing for them, not for the daughter. And so it's hitting this, like, why are the choices that all these wealthy people making. What's the point of them? That I actually think is a really interesting concept.
- [67:48]
Joanna Robinson
Well, I think it's interesting to watch your friends and neighbors right off the heels of White Lotus, which is also a show that tries to smarter version, look at rich people and hey, man, they also have problems. They're not happy even though they're surrounded by all this luxury. But I think it's.
- [68:05]
Bill Simmons
Except for Greg Gehry, he didn't have problems. He's figured it out. He has a great house and he knows what he likes sexually, he's good.
- [68:11]
Joanna Robinson
But I think both those shows are trying to have it both way. Both ways, where they're critiquing that class of person while also inviting you just to luxuriate in the world and just have this sort of escapist fantasy that you too can have a watch that costs this much money or, you know, a swimming pool that looks like this or a catered birthday party that looks like that. You know, like that.
- [68:36]
Bill Simmons
Or a shelf of watches.
- [68:38]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [68:39]
Bill Simmons
Like, here are all my luxury watches one by one.
- [68:42]
Joanna Robinson
Do you have a watch shelf, Bill?
- [68:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, definitely. 100%. No.
- [68:49]
Joanna Robinson
I don't know, man. Is there. Is there anything on your friends and neighbors that you saw that you're like, yeah, I should. I should do that. That's something I should do.
- [68:56]
Bill Simmons
I mean, when they went to the guy's little private basketball court, I was like, oh, that's. That's pretty impressive. Little indoor court out of nowhere. The. Some of the. The. The part they maybe don't hit hard enough, especially with older parents, is how drunk people get. I. They've gotten it a little bit, but it's definitely something you see when. When people have, like the kids go to college and it's just like the couple left, like people getting hammered. It's like this whole. That's what I've never seen in these shows in the right way, where it's like, whoa, they can't even walk and they're 54.
- [69:36]
Joanna Robinson
The more you talk about this, Bill, the more I want you to make this show. I want you to make this.
- [69:39]
Bill Simmons
So I've actually been a consultant.
- [69:41]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I want you to make the show where you get the teenage characters right. And show what the well to do. Empty nesters do once their kids are.
- [69:48]
Bill Simmons
It doesn't even have to be well to do. I think it's everybody. You, you. If you're building like your Whole life around work and your kids and. And then the kids just go. Some people. First of all, you better really like who you're married to, Which I'm fortunate enough. I really enjoyed my wife's company still. But you better really like whoever you're married to.
- [70:06]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [70:07]
Bill Simmons
And you better be prepared for, like, guess what? There's going to be a moment when your kids don't really want to hang out with you and they're just going to leave and they're gonna go and it's just gonna be you guys. And some people are like, that's how it goes.
- [70:21]
Joanna Robinson
All right.
- [70:22]
Bill Simmons
Wait. Can we talk about Last of Us?
- [70:24]
Joanna Robinson
Sure. What do you want to say?
- [70:26]
Bill Simmons
I don't watch that show.
- [70:27]
Joanna Robinson
I know you don't.
- [70:28]
Bill Simmons
I know.
- [70:28]
Joanna Robinson
Are you having any. Are you having any fomo? Given that the last of us in Andor are dominating at least a lot of the conversations we're having at the ringer? Is that something like, does it bum you out to not be watching these shows or how do you feel?
- [70:44]
Bill Simmons
I think I'm gonna watch Last of Us at some point.
- [70:47]
Joanna Robinson
Really?
- [70:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I do. And then, by the way, I watched the first five episodes.
- [70:52]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [70:52]
Bill Simmons
I just wasn't, for me, those bleak end of the world type things. Like, you really kind of have to be in the mood. And the. And you know, post. Post Covid. I wasn't really that interested to explore the end of the world, but maybe I'll get there in the late 2000s. I don't know. Andor is something like. That's one where I think you really have to buy into the Star wars universe. And I think it becomes more meaningful. Right. I just couldn't step into Andor unless I had some background. Right.
- [71:22]
Joanna Robinson
To a certain degree. But I think when you listen to Chris and Andy talk about it on the watch, they have been so disillusioned with Star Wars. They might have grown up on Star wars, but they've been so disillusioned with what is going on in that. In that world. And what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor is just like making a really complex show about politics and spycraft and all this other stuff and with like, this barely visible veneer of Star wars on top of it. So I actually think you could watch and enjoy it.
- [71:54]
Bill Simmons
Interesting. I should just watch the first one and see what I think.
- [71:57]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah. See what you think.
- [71:58]
Bill Simmons
I mean, the problem is I'm just on these terrible channels like 2B and Pluto. I'm just like, oh, Death wish is on. And I'M just watching some movie from 50 years ago. Over.
- [72:07]
Joanna Robinson
Do you pull up Pluto? Because it is comforting to see the old, like, grid of what's.
- [72:13]
Bill Simmons
I love the grid. Yeah, I love the grid. I still have cable, too. Same thing. I'll zip through the movie channels and. Yeah, just work on the tubi. Main screen's great. I like Amazon will get frisky sometimes with like 90s classics or 2000s movies you haven't seen. I like having my handheld. So you're happy with the Last of Us? I know you're covering it all over the place.
- [72:34]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I mean, can we spoil the big thing that has happened this season that everyone already knows about?
- [72:40]
Bill Simmons
I feel like at this point, everybody knows. Right. How would you hide from that one? Yeah.
- [72:44]
Joanna Robinson
Right.
- [72:44]
Bill Simmons
So they kill off the main character.
- [72:46]
Joanna Robinson
So Pedro Pascal is not on the show anymore. Looking at it from the outside in, like, what is. Are you. Do you have any reactions to that?
- [72:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I was startled.
- [72:58]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [72:58]
Bill Simmons
Because they did one of those things that we've gotten used to during the social media era of huge surprise, you know, and you see those moments on.
- [73:08]
Joanna Robinson
The Last of Us.
- [73:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, something happened, but then it just was persistent. And then the next day, of course, it's on like Apple News on my phone, like, why Pedro Pascal left the Last of us and they strayed true to the video game. And so obviously, even me, who didn't watch the show knew that he wasn't on. So it stayed true to the video game. Right? Or no.
- [73:29]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, that happens in the. There was like a first edition of the video game and then a sequel to the video game. And in the sequel, they kill off that character right at the beginning of the game. So they killed him off. And we were all wondering if they would string it along just to keep their star, the pedophiles gal on the show a little longer. But they killed him in the second episode of the season. But I was just curious if that kind of move is something that makes you want to watch the show more. If you're like, oh, they're doing something as bold as that. That's interesting. I kind of want to check that kind of storytelling out. Or if you're like. Because we've heard seems risky. Well, there's been this interesting. There's been a reaction of if Pedro Pascal is not on the show, I don't want to watch the show anymore. And I have to say, I got a little, like, bored with that because I've just heard it before and those people don't ever wind up quitting the shows. I've just heard it for too often that people are like, I'm quitting. I'm never gonna watch this show again. We heard on Game of Thrones every other season, people would say that in reaction to something, and then more and more people watched it every. Every single year.
- [74:33]
Bill Simmons
Walking Dead was the best example of that. The first couple years when it was really a water cooler show. And they would kill off a couple people and be like, what?
- [74:41]
Joanna Robinson
How? I'm. I'm quitting. I'm never coming back. And then they always do. So I'm just like, it's not. I can't believe.
- [74:47]
Bill Simmons
What's the number one? What's the number one? I can't believe they killed that off. That person off characters. It's gotta be the. The guy in Game of Thrones, right? Sean Bean. Yeah. Just like that. They did that. And everyone who read the books knew it was coming. But for somebody like me, it was like, I thought that was the star of the show. It was like, what? Wait, what? How do you do that?
- [75:08]
Joanna Robinson
Given your allergy to genre storytelling, Bill, how did you wind up watching Game of Thrones in its very first season? Because it was unexpected.
- [75:17]
Bill Simmons
I didn't watch it very. I didn't. I came in late and a couple people in. It was the then Grantland universe just hammering me. But it got to the point where it was clearly such a great show and such a phenomenon that it was like, if I like tv, how do I not watch this? It was one of those.
- [75:39]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. And I'm trying to decide which, like, between the last of us and. Andor which one I want to sort.
- [75:44]
Bill Simmons
Of steer me toward.
- [75:45]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Bug you about for the next five years to see if I can get you to watch it.
- [75:50]
Bill Simmons
Probably the biggest hole. My worst one that I'm. Your worst one is Sopranos.
- [75:54]
Joanna Robinson
Correct. Clearly.
- [75:56]
Bill Simmons
My worst one is probably Six Feet Under. I've never seen it. Yeah, I've never watched it.
- [76:01]
Joanna Robinson
It. That is wild to me. Not.
- [76:03]
Bill Simmons
It's terrible. It's a bad job by me.
- [76:05]
Joanna Robinson
No. It's just such a Bill show.
- [76:07]
Bill Simmons
I know.
- [76:07]
Joanna Robinson
It's like a show you would really like. Yeah.
- [76:09]
Bill Simmons
Can't explain it.
- [76:10]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. That's okay. We all have those things.
- [76:12]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. That's one that I know I have in my back pocket. I never watched the Shield, which has enraged a couple people in my life, but now I feel like that's probably too dated.
- [76:20]
Joanna Robinson
No, I mean.
- [76:22]
Bill Simmons
And the leftovers is the other one that I. That's A miss for me.
- [76:25]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. But I like the Leftovers isn't a Bill show, but, like Shield and Six.
- [76:29]
Bill Simmons
Well, my girl's in it, though.
- [76:30]
Joanna Robinson
Well, yeah, Carrie's in it, but you can see her in other things, right?
- [76:33]
Bill Simmons
I know, but I feel like I want to support her franchise. I was watching. I was watching flipping channels and Eagle Eye was on with Shia LaBeouf and Michelle Monahan.
- [76:45]
Joanna Robinson
Michelle Monahan, Yeah.
- [76:46]
Bill Simmons
Much, much younger because it came out 20 years ago, and I was like, wow, there's our girl. She's back. If I still feel like attachments to all the characters, although it seems like our guy, Walton Goggins is kind of unraveling a little bit.
- [76:59]
Joanna Robinson
I have a lot of questions, Bill, and no answers for you. Just only questions.
- [77:02]
Bill Simmons
People go on White Lotus and weird.
- [77:04]
Joanna Robinson
Shit happens after they lose their marbles. It's a lot. I don't know. We support Walton Goggins always on this podcast and all podcasts, but I just have some questions about what's happening.
- [77:14]
Bill Simmons
I do have some intel. I don't think they're going cold in season four.
- [77:18]
Joanna Robinson
What?
- [77:19]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I tried to warn you with this. I don't think Mike White likes cold.
- [77:24]
Joanna Robinson
Do you know where we're going?
- [77:25]
Bill Simmons
I don't know where we're going, and I don't think they know where they're going, but I don't think it's going to be cold.
- [77:30]
Joanna Robinson
Somewhere sunny. Okay.
- [77:31]
Bill Simmons
You're not going to get the Swiss. The Swiss Alps. We're not getting Aspen. We're not getting anything with snow. I don't think.
- [77:37]
Joanna Robinson
What's the next show this year that you're excited about? What's coming up that you.
- [77:41]
Bill Simmons
The bear.
- [77:42]
Joanna Robinson
The bear, yeah. And how do you.
- [77:44]
Bill Simmons
What else is coming? I can't. I. So here's the thing with the bear. I can't do more than two. I think that's how you have to treat it. And I think people who binge, who try to watch like five in one night, that's not the show. You can't do it. You're doing the show. Disservice. That's not how it was meant to be written, perceived, consumed, anything.
- [78:07]
Joanna Robinson
But would you do two over the course of a week? Like Monday through Friday every night we're watching two. Or do you do two and space it out a couple days and two more?
- [78:14]
Bill Simmons
So I'm saying I would watch two in a row.
- [78:16]
Joanna Robinson
Right. But I'm saying, like, Monday night, two episodes, Tuesday night, the next two episodes, Wednesday night. Sort of like that. Or the Problem with binge shows like that, though, is you don't want to be too far behind what everyone's talking about in case you get spoiled or something like that. You know, if I was in charge.
- [78:31]
Bill Simmons
Of fx, I would run one on Sunday night and one on Wednesday night and I would do a Sunday, Wednesday staggered schedule so people could talk about each one. But then the next one's coming and that's. I just think that would work better.
- [78:42]
Joanna Robinson
I told you why they started Binge like the Bear is a binge watch, right?
- [78:46]
Bill Simmons
It was to ignite Hulu, wasn't it?
- [78:48]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [78:49]
Joanna Robinson
Well, I was told that it was because John Landgraaf thought it was like too bleak and that people wouldn't stick with it if it were week to week. So I understand why they dropped the first season as a binge, but once they saw what a hit it was, I will never understand why they keep dropping it as a binge. I think it's just because they think people expect expected at this point. But I don't know why you wouldn't just reverse course and own the summer with the Bear, which you could easily do.
- [79:16]
Bill Simmons
So I can tell you this. It would have been great for Grantland and it would have been great for the Ringer and it would have been great for any content company I'll ever be involved with.
- [79:25]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, think of the content on the Watch a great podcast on your network. Chris and Andy interviewed Tony Gilroy about Andor and he was talking about the release schedule and he was saying dropping three episodes a week. He's like, I kind of like it. It's like a little movie every week, you know, so people can watch it. He was like, I do worry about the podcasters. And he sounded actually genuine. He was like, it's a lot for the podcasters to try to cover. And I was like, thanks, Tony Gilroy, for thinking about us.
- [79:54]
Bill Simmons
Well, Stranger Things was the other one that just doesn't care. And that's coming too, I think this summer, right?
- [80:00]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah, I think like Midsummer July, something like that. Yeah.
- [80:04]
Bill Simmons
The one I'm the most excited about. And God knows it'll ever. When it'll ever finish and it probably won't be 25 is. Is when they figure out euphoria, especially if they do the moving the characters forward by five years gimmick, which it sounds like they did. Yeah, I just, I've always wanted somebody to do that. I think. What did like Dawson's Creek do that or some One Tree Hill, one of those shows. Oh, that's Advanced, the characters got old, and they just said, fuck. It moved everybody forward.
- [80:32]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, that sounds like a One Tree Hill move. Dawson's never did that. We had to suffer through all the years of college. Well, at the finale, finale of Dawson's, they did a time hump.
- [80:41]
Bill Simmons
Well, the best time hump of all time is Mallory's favorite moment in the history of television, which was the end of the affair with old Dominic west with the old age makeup. She's never been more delighted about anything that's ever happened.
- [80:58]
Joanna Robinson
I genuinely think you two think the affair is one of the greatest things that's ever happened on television.
- [81:04]
Bill Simmons
It's one of our bonds. The first season. I would stand by the lore of everything behind the show, behind the scenes of the show that just became. That would be the greatest oral history, no pun intended, I think, that's ever been written about a TV show. I still don't really know what happened. Euphoria would be a pretty good one.
- [81:23]
Joanna Robinson
Too, but I love that Mallory's not here and you're just sort of like, filling in for her. I appreciate you bringing that energy.
- [81:29]
Bill Simmons
I'm just taking some of her takes.
- [81:30]
Joanna Robinson
I know she would appreciate that energy.
- [81:32]
Bill Simmons
What show are you the most excited about in 25 that hasn't come out yet?
- [81:36]
Joanna Robinson
Well, we got another throne show coming up, a Night of the Seven Kingdoms. We just don't know when it's coming. We thought it was coming after the last of us, but they haven't even announced a date yet, so I don't know when that's going to happen, but I'm really, really excited for that one. To podcast about it with Mallory and Chris, I think is going to be really fun. So that one should be good. There's a new show from the creator of Mare of Easttown that's gonna kill. Yeah, that's gonna be a really good one, I think so. You know, there's. There's a lot to think about in terms of what we want from television going forward, because television is radically changing in terms of how they're making it and what exactly they're making. And so I think, you know, the more that people can make it clear in terms of conversation or engaging, what actually hits and what they're not actually watching. I mean, your friends and neighbors, you're saying you're watching, like, 80% of it. Is that what you said to me? Something like that, yeah.
- [82:35]
Bill Simmons
It's. I wish there was some way to keep, like, how they have oura rings and apple watches, like, where your eyeballs go during a TV show, it's like. Is it like a 72%? I'm looking at the TV during it.
- [82:47]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [82:47]
Bill Simmons
Is it an 80? Are we at 30? Where are we?
- [82:51]
Joanna Robinson
So that's a hang show for you. That's just sort of like a background watching show for you. But with White Lotus, you were. You were sat and you were taking notes and you were ready for it.
- [82:59]
Bill Simmons
You know, in 1923, which I really, really, really enjoyed and is a big show for me and my wife. Like, we did. I think we. There's very few shows we equally like. Like the same percentage. And that White Lotus was another one. But 1923 seems like it's a hang show. But you actually, like. Are you popping your head up a lot on that one? There's a lot going on. And I thought the actors were really good on this season. I thought the wife character who is trying to get back with her husband.
- [83:29]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, yeah, that guy. She's great.
- [83:32]
Bill Simmons
She was excellent. I thought she was an excellent actress.
- [83:35]
Joanna Robinson
She's great. What do you think of the rumors that the guy who plays her husband, Brendan Spinner, that he might be Batman? What do you think of that rumor? Would you like it?
- [83:43]
Bill Simmons
Interesting. I know he has some Sydney Sweeney movie coming. Right. And he's in a movie with the lady from White Lotus that I think already might have come out. The girl from season two. That one, I think already came out.
- [83:57]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [83:58]
Bill Simmons
So I think they're trying to make him a thing. Him as Batman, though. I don't know. I mean, the one thing with him is I do feel like he's winning fights on 1923. It's like, don't fuck with, like. He has that kind of.
- [84:07]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [84:08]
Bill Simmons
Energy to him that I think works.
- [84:10]
Joanna Robinson
He threw that one guy overboard, like, you know, So, I mean, I. I think that would be really interesting.
- [84:17]
Bill Simmons
One, two other shows we didn't mention before we go. Paradise was totally watchable. I thought that was probably a 72, so maybe a 67 on my eyeball scale. Yeah, definitely. Could, like. Could, like go on ebay and look for stuff and just pop up and then I didn't watch it. I'm going to. But the Pit, I think, was the unexpected surprise hit of the year. Right. Yeah.
- [84:37]
Joanna Robinson
But the Pit is not paradise background watchable.
- [84:42]
Bill Simmons
No. You're locked into the pit. Yeah, it.
- [84:44]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I think the Pit is definitely. I think andor just for what I like is the number one show of the year for me. And it's just operating on a different level altogether. But the Pit, in terms of similar to your friends and neighbors, it feels like a show from a different era. We feel like we're just watching er but elevated ER and sounds great.
- [85:07]
Bill Simmons
Elevated ER is a great idea. I would have bought that one in the room. Oh, we're doing Elevated Air. Done.
- [85:12]
Joanna Robinson
The best part about the Pit, not just that it ran longer than your normal HBO show run, so you're just like really with the characters week to week for a while, but it's coming back at the top of next year. Like we don't have to wait three years for another season. They're bringing it back at the same time next year. And so, you know, that's how we used to watch television. But yeah, the Pit is, I mean, absolutely killer. I can't wait for you to watch the Pit. I can't wait to hear your pitch.
- [85:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'll be banging once we get through NBA playoffs when we hit like mid June. I'm just. That's it. I will be all caught up on all TV by probably mid, mid late July.
- [85:48]
Joanna Robinson
So what I'm hearing though is that you want to podcast about Euphoria season three with me. That's what, that's what our plan is for.
- [85:57]
Bill Simmons
Am I. I think I'm too old to be on that podcast. But no, we're, we're. Well, first of all, I don't want to jinx it because God only knows with all the people involved in that show, if we ever get to the end of a season three filming. But they are filming it.
- [86:10]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [86:10]
Bill Simmons
So that's a win.
- [86:11]
Joanna Robinson
I believe.
- [86:12]
Bill Simmons
I choose to believe the one I'd want to do with you is the five year anniversary of the Idol diving back in and trying to figure out exactly what happened.
- [86:24]
Joanna Robinson
Is that my punishment for not having seen the Sopranos. You're going to make me watch the Idol? Five years later, what happened?
- [86:31]
Bill Simmons
I actually don't feel like enough's been made out of them postponing the biggest phenomenon show that they had since basically a non Game of Thrones, like just an absolute phenomenon that's peaking on TikTok. And instead of doing season three, the guy's like, can I do this other idea first? And then it just becomes this two and a half year shit show, however long it took. And then it was so bad they had to basically combine episodes to get out of the season. Like, what are the odds?
- [86:59]
Joanna Robinson
That was a brush fire. That was terrible. That was.
- [87:02]
Bill Simmons
It couldn't have been worse.
- [87:04]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Okay. Five years later, the Idol. What happened?
- [87:07]
Bill Simmons
What happened? And why?
- [87:08]
Joanna Robinson
What happened?
- [87:09]
Bill Simmons
A deep dive. Yeah. Coming back. All right, so you can hear Joanne on House of R with Mallory as well as Prestige TV podcast, which was a feed. We were basically like we were holding on to the side of the cliff, hoping for good shows, and then, boom, we're having a really good year on the Prestige tv.
- [87:26]
Joanna Robinson
There's a lot going on.
- [87:27]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. All right. Good to see you, Joanna.
- [87:29]
Joanna Robinson
Good to see you.
- [87:30]
Bill Simmons
Thanks for crypt now.
- [87:31]
Joanna Robinson
Thanks.
- [87:32]
Bill Simmons
This episode is presented by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents to help you find coverage that's right for you. You can focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. State Farm coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by State Farm. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at micheloboltra.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michglobalcher.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. We are taping this. It is Thursday morning. There's so many storylines in play, big picture, that I had to bring the guy who's seen it all, Bob Ryan, who is the best ever at comparing players, different eras. He's seen everything. What guy do you want to start with? Because I really want your big picture context on some of this stuff. You want to go Anthony Edwards, age 23, taking it to the Lakers, taking down Durant last year, taking down Luke and LeBron this year. What do you see with him?
- [89:12]
Bob Ryan
Interesting. There was a point in the middle of the season when I. In fact, I don't even know if Twitter had turned to X yet, but I either Twitter tweeted or X'd that he's got some Michael Jordan in Him and then next thing you know, I saw that somebody of, you know, in real consequence saying the same thing made me feel very good. He does have Michael Jordan in him. There's Michael Jordan esque qualities on his game. Same size, body type, range of skill, swagger. He's got swagger. God knows. And you know, we took, he got everyone's attention last year in the World Games though we lost. He was the best player on the team. That was news to a lot of us that he would be the best player on that team.
- [89:57]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [89:57]
Bob Ryan
And he's built on that and he's, he's a growth stock. My God, you know, they've got something very special there. So yeah, he's gotten my attention.
- [90:07]
Bill Simmons
Hold on. Can I say on Edwards. So, so World Games was two years ago and then last year was the big playoff run Olympics. No, I'm just getting the chronology right. When he.
- [90:18]
Bob Ryan
But that's where he got my first. First got my. Now I was aware of him in Georgia and I, I knew people that thought he was very talented but. But there was something missing. But whatever was missing, doesn't he appears to have found it?
- [90:31]
Bill Simmons
Well, you think last year versus this year? Last year was the. Whoa, Anthony Edwards. He's here. I can't believe it. I didn't realize he was. Whoa, there's a little Michael Jordan here this year. Even though he sucked in the, he sucked in the closeout game last night. He couldn't make a three. But Rudy Gobert said something interesting after that I agreed with. Cause I went to the game, he made all the right plays like he wasn't making the threes, but they were the right threes to take. He, they kept sending these double staggered doubles at him. He usually was making the right decisions. And the truth is if they had made some threes, they would have won by. By 30. But I'm with you. Like I didn't go to the famous game. I know you did the 63 point game that MJ had. And I hate comparing anyone to MJ. He's the best player I've ever seen. But there are pieces and it's undeniable when you see it in person where you're like, ah, that kind of just the way he's carrying himself, the way he's easily going by people, the way he easily seems like he's the best athlete in this game. It does bring back some memories. I got to be honest, Bill.
- [91:32]
Bob Ryan
It's always fair. Fair to. Guys say guys remind you of great players. And there's qualities about them without going overboard and saying that they are that guy or, or is better than that guy. I mean, absolutely. And, and he people, there's, there's types. We all know that there's all kinds of types. There's guys that remind you of that. And then there were certain people that I don't, you know, they stand apart. And I always say that one of the things that the truly great players have something special that, that you is uniquely theirs. There's a, there's a, something about their style. Maybe it's a quirk of some kind but you know, and they don't have to be the top of the line player. But I mean I'm talking about just a Hall of Fame level excellent player. Could be very special in a way that nobody else reminds you of him, for example. And you'll like this. I think. I'm not saying he's the greatest player or the race guard of all time. I'd like that. But I've never seen another Dennis Johnson. There's something about his package that's the word we want to use. The packaging his package was, was special and different and worked for him. And I haven't seen anybody reminds me. I've never seen anybody reminds me of him. And yet there were plenty of other great players that somebody would you reminds you of them.
- [92:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Dennis Johnson's a good one because he had size. He could kind of jump, but he would pick his spots. We got him with the Celtics was like a slightly different part of his career because he was so good on Seattle and they, you know, was a big part of those two finals teams. But the way he would pick his spots. The only person that kind of reminds me of him is Drew. With the way Drew has gears during the season and then gears and games and then in a fourth quarter can elevate a level where he goes from being a role player to being. You could really feel it in the Celtics Orlando series where it's just like I, I, I feel like Drew and sometimes I feel like he's the second most important guy in the Celtics for the late game stuff. So he's in the right spots, can always count him get the right rebound. I always feel like he's going to make a three. He can guard anybody in the other team and that, that part reminds me of D.J. i think. But I think you're right. There's he D.J. was a one on one.
- [93:45]
Bob Ryan
But of course part of that is when we knew him and we knew we saw him night in and night out and understood the overall approach that he took, which was that he didn't play 100% all the time. He took nights off and he said 85, 86. He's absolutely, positively. But he pre announced them to the team, to Danny specifically. I love this Danny. Tonight you're getting the shots. And he always picked a team that they were going to kick their ass at home. It was a game the way the game was going to be won. And, and you can see I've got the logging game by game. And oh, minutes played. 28, FGA 4, you know, Danny, minutes played, you know, FGA 17 because DJ was taking the night off. And yet the converse is when, when the big games came, you wanted that guy. And Larry Bird would be the first one to tell you. And as he, as he famously anointed him as the best player he ever played with and, and, and, and never backed down from that.
- [94:48]
Bill Simmons
Right. Well, you know, another one on one. This a fun combo just because like I always think about this stuff and you're one of the. Yeah, I probably learned it from you. I've never seen anyone rebound like Moses. Like Moses at his peak. I've never seen anybody. Whatever he was doing, I remember writing about in my book where he would go, he'd almost go to the baseline, almost out of bounds, and then he would just back into people. And I've never seen anyone do that before since he would just use his ass as this weapon and all of a sudden guys were flying backwards and he was right next to the rim. And I've just never seen it.
- [95:23]
Bob Ryan
No, he was special in that regard. But rebound, because to me, the number one rule of rebounding, do you want the damn ball or don't you? And he wanted every rebound. I mean, and there's two types of statistically good rebounders. There's guys that get what comes to them and they're big and they're strong or they're athletic. And there's guys that get rebounds that quote, don't belong to them, unquote. And Moses was the champion of getting rebounds that didn't belong to him. And that's what he lived for. Rebounding was his identity. And I know that mattered. That was the part of the game that mattered the most to him. There was no question about that. He was an okay offensive player. He didn't have a great repertoire. You know, he had a big man post, you know, power stuff, but he wasn't a finesse any way shape or form a finesse offensive player. But he sure was a phenomenal rebounder.
- [96:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that's what I love. The game four of the Golden State series. Draymond made that big stop and then Butler came flying in for this crazy rebound in traffic and he was just like, I'm getting this rebound that was. I went to the Laker game last night and they're just getting killed on the boards and everybody's just kind of looking around at each other like, I don't know, are you good? But nobody was like, shit, I better get some rebounds. You know, like, I think about 2010, game seven. Gasol was, you know, really taking it to KG, but Kobe, cause he wasn't making shots. And Kobe's like, I'm just going to have to go get. Try to get as many rebounds as I can. And came flying in and that's what swung that game. Nobody in the Lakers did that last night. Everybody was like, ah, Rudy Gobert, I wish we had a center and that you could watch them rolling over in real time. It was kind of crazy.
- [97:03]
Bob Ryan
Yeah, well, I think the whole thing, they, they. I'm guessing I wasn't, I never did anything as in person as you did. But the Lakers, I guess recognized the futility of their circumstance some point during the middle of this series. Right. Inherently. And I mean, you know, and they, they just weren't. They didn't have a deep enough roster. They're lucky they had two guys, let alone three. And anyway, we all know you saw it and you know, so now we'll see what that offseason brings.
- [97:31]
Bill Simmons
All right. More guys now and, and where you see them. What. Who is Brunson to you? Brunson almost seems like he's at a 1974. Like he could have been easily on the, on the Knicks with Walt Frazier.
- [97:43]
Bob Ryan
Yeah, very, very true. You could. Brunch is one of those guys that you could easily See Playing in 1968 All Star Game as well as playing today. There's I, I had two guys in a previous generation that I said were complete throwbacks games that they were in combinations of the 1950. They could. The combination of Dolph Shays in the 21st century, Paul Pierce and Manu Ginobili. Those two guys had old end games spiced up with a three pointer. You know, they, they, they added the little extra sauce which was the three pointer. But other than that, their game could have translated very well in previous generations. Brunson, he just, he, he makes, he shows you what, what you have to do if you're going to excel at his size. And he's figured out, you know, angles, he's figuring out deception, timing. He's strong. He's strong. He can take a bump and, and keep the shot when he goes to hoopa. And he just, he's got a basketball mind, a Ph.D. you know, he's a, he's a player's son and his coach's son who really had obviously absorbed all the lessons and, and you. And he's got. And people talk about the flopping. It doesn't even bother me at all. I think he's just smart, that's all. I don't buy. I don't mind it with him. I got with money. I bought it with some people over the years, but doesn't bother me at all with him. I. You go, guy. I love him. I just think he's. He's a special. And here's the thing, Bill, when they got him now, I always had my eye on him back to Villanova and, and now, of course, I didn't see him play much in Dallas. You know, I'm. But I knew he was there. But when they got him, I said, oh, that's the good move. Very good move. But they've overpaid. He's not a star. He's a. He's a wonderful auxiliary player. That's what I thought. Oh, boy, is he turned out to be worth every penny for them.
- [99:32]
Bill Simmons
Do you make anything. Do you make anything of the fact that only one team built around a small guy in the history of the league has ever won a title?
- [99:42]
Bob Ryan
Yes, I think it's. I think it's a good historical lesson. In fact, I've had this discussion this year with people about you go back over the history of the NBA and I, I'm only can think of one in my time anyway, you know, and I'm thinking about what I know about the 50s and Cousy never won till he got Russell and, and, and so. And he was the preeminent guy. And then. And the other guys, the other little guards of his near, near him were Slater, Martin and he did win. He had Miken and. Yeah, and Bobby Davies and they won 1 and 51. But anyway, Isaiah Thomas arguably was the best player on the Bad Boy Pistons and they won back to back and could have won three in a row and because they were jobbed in 88 on a terrible call. Don't get me started, Lambert, you know, when they put Lambert, they put Kareem on the line and that was a terrible call. But anyway, I say, I think we're on the same page here. Only exit only. Stockton never won. You know. Chris Paul. Nah. Nash. No. You know, so it's hard. It's hard when your best player is a point guard and the next best player is a point guard. And so we will, you know, we'll see how far they can go not just this year, but in the future. With their best player being Jalen Brunson.
- [101:05]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, because there was a great book about the. The Pistons in the late 80s, how they put together that title team with McCloskey called the Franchise and it was all about them. With this conundrum of the league had been around for four decades at that point. Isaiah was their best player as one of the best players in the league. But nobody had ever won with a small guy. So what do you have to do? And basically the answer was Isaiah had to give up a lot of his offense, lead the team really. He could have had 30 a game. Instead he scored like 22 a game, 23, whatever it was. And he was trying to get everyone else involved. And sometimes I wonder like when I watch Brunson how much he has the ball if he's not like are they better off with him scoring seven less points a game?
- [101:45]
Bob Ryan
You know that issue was raised earlier in this series in at least in the New York Post. Anyway, I didn't read. I read that every day and I didn't see it and, and they raised that issue that he. He's got to be less ball dominant for this team. And the next came out he was and in fact so yeah, that's a very. It's a fine line. It's like so many things in basketball. That's why I love the. Among the reasons I love the game I love. But. But the. What goes into winning, you know and they need to calibrate guys skills with. So I always said about, about Jordan and the difference when Jordan. People think he didn't win a championship. Yeah he needed won the championship when he finally got Scottie Pippen as a tremendous sidekick. But until he learned how to calibrate his skills with the other guys and not, you know, and balance it out and know when to take over, when not to take over, know who to go to, when not. I mean it's all very, very important stuff. You just don't throw together talent. You gotta, you gotta play the game in a quote unquote right way. And, and that's a universal truth. And. And you got to figure out how I'm gonna blend with the other guys. There's one Ball and five guys and. Right, I know, I mean, Petey Carrillo used to talk about that. Bradley grew up thinking that way and, and you gotta, you gotta be able to think that way. Bern understood that and God knows Magic understood that. And Michael didn't originally do, even though it came out of North Carolina with Dean, but he finally figured it out and once he did, the championship started to flow.
- [103:23]
Bill Simmons
How about Luka? First of all, is he one on one and second, do you think he'll ever understand that balance of I have to make everybody else better, maybe I don't need to score 35 a game? Where do you see for him from a title standpoint?
- [103:36]
Bob Ryan
First of all, before we get to that, I was thinking that I know one person sitting back having an extra late toddy night last year was Nico Harrison. He must have been smiling as the Lakers out the window. All right, anyway, yeah, Luca, interesting there because he does have the ball, you know, all the time. And I, I, it's hard. I, I, I think he's still, he's still only 25, he's still got lessons he can learn. I, I, and I think he's smart enough to feel recognized that he's got to think in those, in these terms that we're talking about. But the Lakers still, unfortunately for them, you know, their roster is shy and now who knows where they go from here with LeBron aiming and we played 40 years, 41 years old in December of this year. Yeah. Is he going to play again and blah, blah, blah. No, Luke is interesting, you know, and in that regard, he's, he's so skilled. But that's, that's the thing that when you have all that skill, you have to learn how to utilize it properly. There's no question, you know, and some nights it seems like that he does, and other nights he's got the ball too much. So I don't think he's fully gotten there yet.
- [104:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I wonder, I'm sure they're going to be talking all summer. Is he going to get in shape? How seriously he's going to take this?
- [104:55]
Bob Ryan
Yeah, there's the whole defense thing too, with him, you know, and I wondered, my biggest question about the series before they started was will people, will the other guys be able to take advantage? You know, how much can you exploit him on defense? You know, and it happened. And that's something that the Lakers have to be, you know, realistic about.
- [105:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they, the Lakers case hinged on can Luka not get torched on defense? Can we get any rebounds and how much can we ask from LeBron? And as the series went along, LeBron started to die, especially in these fourth quarter. So he. So he's. You said he's going to be 41 next year during the playoffs. I think that's right. Yeah.
- [105:34]
Bob Ryan
December 30th is his birthday, so I know that.
- [105:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So havoc have a check. Played 16 years and it seemed like 40 when. When Havoc it was like, oh my God, somebody played 16 years in the NBA. This is impossible. But then probably could have played a couple years more like he would.
- [105:53]
Bob Ryan
You were going to those did not, by the way. I've got a column in the hopper. It's either going to come out Sunday or the week after. They didn't tell me which one they want to run. John Havlicek, by the way, for reasons that you'll see and you'll like, but I know you will like it. But John did not quit because he couldn't play anymore. His game had diminished. Sure, he averaged 16 points a game that year, but he could still play. And, and he, he famed. He, you know, when he, he said he would have hung around if he had any idea how good Bird was going to be, you know, and, and he would have hung around anyway. No, John played 16 years. He was in at 38, went out with a 29 point game and. And he quit because he didn't like the circumstance anymore. He wasn't having fun with. With the way that the Celtics had deteriorated in. In the locker room, quite frankly. And yeah, it was a down period and so anyway. But he still had skill. He went out to being able to play. But he was 38 that year. He ended, in fact, he ended the day. His last game was the day after his 38th birthday, by the way. And that just so happened. He had turned 38 the day he was born, April 8, 1940. And his last game was April 9, 1978.
- [107:10]
Bill Simmons
Wow. Yeah, because there was always stories about how he would come and like just play with them and scrimmages and stuff when like three, four years later and was still pretty good.
- [107:20]
Bob Ryan
And they couldn't believe how good he was. These guys, these young guys, you know, that, that the. This, this. Yeah, that was his birthday present to himself to come to practice and suit up. That was fun.
- [107:29]
Bill Simmons
Well, so I mean that this is the question with LeBron because we saw it with Brady where he just kept playing and you know, in the 201718 range, they had Garoppolo and it's like, how long can this go? They need a succession plan. Quarterbacks don't play this long. And then. And he just kept going and going and going. Like I do feel like there can be generational freaks. I really wonder how long LeBron can go. I think he could still keep playing. But if he's going to be making $50 million a year as one of your two expensive guys that's where it becomes problematic. Right. Because you're just asking like you're asking for nine months a year potentially if you're going to win the finals from this guy that you need to rely on for all these different things because he's in your $50 million spot. And that's where I don't know what the. It almost seems like the answer might be maybe he needs to take less and try to boost up the team and think about it that way. But I don't know if he would do that.
- [108:25]
Bob Ryan
I don't know. That's obviously would be a very rational solution that you know we know along the way supposedly Brady was able to do that in his time that Right. With the contracts and. And it's always wonderful. And you know with the money that we're talking about these people make it shouldn't be that hard to decision if you really want to win. You know that you don't have to.
- [108:45]
Bill Simmons
Unless they make it off the court too. Right. Like they can still make up money all these different ways.
- [108:50]
Bob Ryan
But the issue about whether how long he's occasionally he's. Has he not at times over the years or recent years when somebody was kiddingly say about playing the year 45. Not dismiss the possibility that he would keep. Want to keep playing till he's 45. You know. I mean if you did. I used to look at great I. I remember thinking about Brady this way. If you were to deteriorate take a percentage 5, 10% you know with how much would you still like to have them and it was always I'll still take them if defined deteriorates 10% next year. Okay.
- [109:26]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [109:27]
Bob Ryan
That's still a pretty good player based on what he was able to produce this year. Right. And so it's. It's. You know that he certainly could still play in this game. He is in phenomenal shape. We learned that he spends literally a million dollars a year and on conditioning.
- [109:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [109:45]
Bob Ryan
And. Or more. Yeah. And we see the benefit of it. It's. And we've never been. We've had old guys. We've got. They've always been the two oldest guys I can think of that played long this long were Kevin Willison and Robert Parish, who still holds the record for most games, which I guess LeBron eventually want to eclipse.
- [110:04]
Bill Simmons
But well, and then old washed up Kareem, I think got to 42, didn't he? Wasn't he like 41 or 42?
- [110:11]
Bob Ryan
But those guys got into their 42 and 3 range. Those guys particularly punch LeBron, but they weren't running, they weren't doing the work, you know, the up and down work that LeBron does, you know, they were doing them down lower work. But anyway, we haven't seen anything like this. What I'm babbling and say we haven't seen anything like this before. Anybody that could play the game the way he plays it at this time, at this level, at this age, we haven't seen that before. He's, you know, it's a whole new territory that we're exploring.
- [110:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I voted for him. Second team, all NBA. And I stand by it, right? It just thought he was one of the, I mean there were a lot of injuries but. But Jason Tatum, what do you see when you see him? Who do you see? Who do you see pieces of. With Jason Tatum?
- [110:56]
Bob Ryan
Jason Tatum at 6ft 10 is the most all around skilled player the Celtics have ever had. At 6ft 10, you know, Larry didn't possess that kind of ball handling ability. Larry didn't possess that kind of get your own shot that you will automatically against almost anybody at any time. You know, most people. But there were people, you know, we know that could give him, irritate him, this guy. The. It's funny because he's like Pierce on steroids because you know, I, I declared 20 years ago that Paul Pierce was the best scoring machine in Celtic history. You know, not the best player still, Larry, but, but the best scoring machine that he had. Every aspect of scoring, you know, you know what they say now, all three levels, right? Well, the fact is that his mid range gains were superb and he can get a shot off anytime he wanted and he could. And he had a three point range and he's the best, Bill, I think he's the best finisher on a break the Celtics have ever had was, was Paul Pierce and he had that. And he. And don't foul him because he's an 80 plus percent way up there, mid-80s percent homeward free throw shooter. This is the best all around consummate individual offensive player that they've ever had that Jayson Tatum is making a bid for this honor. And as a matter of fact, I'm sure a lot of people now think he's already earned it. And it's funny you mentioned not funny but I'm glad you mentioned this because I've already been on local public record as saying he just came off yet another yawn routine 35 point X rebound ecstasist game in a playoff and he's not getting enough credit for it here in Boston. He's not. This is part of the curse of the, the history of the franchise. He's up against, you know, the Havocs and the Larry's and the Pierces. That's, that's who. What happens when you come to Boston and, and there's good in that and there's bad in that, you know, and this guy is, I, he's. I hope he's going to be totally appreciated for what he's done and how much he's improved his game and then broaden his game. Last year the big thing I took away from the playoffs with him was improved defensive rebounding, traffic rebounding. I thought he, he became a terrific traffic rebounder last year, which to the likes I hadn't seen before. We know he's brought in his passing game, you know, and, and, and then his individual offense sometimes. I mean some of these step backs, they're, you know, of course all over the league we're getting used to it. Curry has set a template, you know, for distance that you've got to match now and you. Because I used to call it Curryland, now I call it Caitlin Clark Lane but for another team and, but you know, look at the shot that, how about the shot that Carl Anthony Towns made that, that last jumper the other night? Yeah, after we had the one where he was going out of bounds which was a, that was a bird like shot going out of bounds on this, on the baseline, making that the moments behind the backboard. The next shot that was five feet beyond the arc minimum. Yeah, he's seven feet tall. But Pierce has, I'm sure, excuse me. Tatum has this ability to make step backs almost in that range and people, I think people here take him for granted, I really do. And I don't know what more they want out of him. Frankly.
- [114:06]
Bill Simmons
I agree with you. I've been talking about it all year and then people get mad at me that I'm talking about the Tatum too much and I just feel like he's made such a leap from two years ago to last year, but then last year to this year where there was. I thought Tatum and Brown last year were 1A 1B in a lot of ways Brown was awesome last year and the distance between them. You know, you never knew who was going to be the best guy in a given game. Now Tatum is clearly the best guy in the team. I think he's clearly, either the third or fourth best guy in the league. And you didn't even talk about like how good his defense is and his ability to guard all these different positions. But the rebounding is the thing I love the most. He's their best rebounder by far. You take a game like that Minnesota Lakers game last night, he just would have gone under there and battled Gobert and gotten like 14 rebounds because he's like, this is, we're going to lose unless I do this. I think I appreciate that piece of it the most. I just think he's turned into such a, I don't want to say bully, but there's, there's, there's a toughness to him this year.
- [115:11]
Bob Ryan
There's a confidence. I mean he's a, I mean obviously he's, he's, he's smart and he's smart and confident, but humble too. He's. Yeah, you know, there's nothing, not like with this and you know, the whole package. I don't see anything. So no yeah, buts, you know, I don't have a year. But, and on him and, and we, and we know off the court is his personal life with it. This wonderful kid. And you know, the whole thing is he's entirely rootable is where I'm trying to spit out here.
- [115:39]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I think this year people will appreciate him more. I think if this goes a couple more rounds, I think he's going to get.
- [115:47]
Bob Ryan
If they win, you know, if they don't win, you know that there'll be all this and, and I get, don't get me, you know, I'm not a championship or bust guy. Okay. I never have been and never will be because too many variables going to winning any championship, including in this, you have game seven and things are going great and then somebody goes down, it can happen and we know that. So I, I, I don't take anything for granted there. I, I'll say this, I'm going off key here a little bit. If anybody other than okc, Cleveland or Boston wins, I'll be stunned. One of those three is going to win. You got to draw a line after those three teams in this league. You have to, and that's that. And one of them is going to win. I don't know which one I'm anxious to see.
- [116:31]
Bill Simmons
So I had the. And we're taped this for game six of Clippers Denver. I had the Clippers in that conversation and just. I must add amnesia with James Harden. I just. I just. I think I just forgot. I don't know, maybe I blocked it out of my mind or whatever. And it's like, what am I doing? Of course. Of course they're not making the finals with. With James Harden. I should have known. Um, let's. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back. I want to talk about Yokic. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer's almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. A banana? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry, no. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? Nope. A box of fine wines. Yeah, Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for detail. This episode is brought to you by Altra Running. Every pair of Altra shoes has a roomy toe box and zero to low drop which lets your toes spread and keeps your foot in a more natural position. All in the name of comfort and performance with a variety of styles. There's a shoe for everyone. It's comfort you have to feel to believe. Try Altra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free shipping@altrarunning.com all right, we're talking history. Current NBA. Gotta talk Jokic. I went to the game Saturday when he just would not let them lose against the Clippers and basically played the whole game and just did everything and was a man absolutely possessed. And it was, you know, it was up there for me with LeBron in game six in 2012 and some of the Jordan stuff I'd seen in person. Just when I'm thinking about the best players I've ever seen in person, this now move. This moved him. Just being at that game and just being like, oh my, I can't believe how good this guy is. Where do you put him? I never thought we'd see another Bill Walton. I never thought we'd see another Bird. And yet there's pieces of both of those guys and a lot of the stuff he's doing and he's also doing way more than that. But when you watch him like, did you ever think we'd see anything like this ever?
- [118:49]
Bob Ryan
Let's go back early in his career here and I remember a local writer out there getting talk to me and asked about his passing and how did I think his passing rated with Walton. And I hadn't seen enough of him. I couldn't believe I was having this discussion that anyone would be so sacrilegious as to suggest that there was a center who had come along to pass anywhere near as well as Bill Walton. And guess what? He said that was a fair. He is right. I mean he's there and the, the you we can have the argument. He's so and so. That's the thing. He, he's not only is he as good at Pastors Walton, but he's far superior scorer.
- [119:36]
Bill Simmons
Oh my God.
- [119:37]
Bob Ryan
You know, not even in question. And so my, my position on centers, as you probably well know, I mean the, you start with the three Alzheimer's and whichever one you want to make the devil's advocate argument for go right ahead. Russell, Kareem and Wilt, you know, and I could, you know, fine. I mean I'm a Russell guy, but I mean I totally respect the other two for what they were. And, and, and then I said that's. Then you draw a line. Now we start who's number four? Well, now we got a guy firmly entrenched in the, in the discussion that we'll see how it all plays out, how many championships he'll win or whatever it is. But in terms of wanting to watch somebody play, I'll tell you what, he's at the top of the list. I mean, it's extraordinary. You don't know what he's going to do next. You don't know what incredible pass he's going to conjure up. You don't know how many threes he's going to make. You don't know what great rebound is going to get. Oh, he's a treasure. I mean, my God, it's a total delight to watch. And he isn't, you know, he's still got a long way to go, you know, depending on how long he wants to play. We don't know. We know. We know he might want to go become a jockey, you know, a seven foot jockey someday, you know, who knows about that? But, but anyway, you count me among the, the admirers, the idolaters of Nikola Jokic.
- [121:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Rosela and I had talked about this a little on Sunday, that this whole theory that he's just going to retire when he's 34 and be done with it. But after going to that game on Saturday, I don't believe it. The guy's too competitive. You don't shut that off. Like, he was an absolute full fledged maniac in that game. And just in general, like, you know, there's pieces, like, obviously there's some Walton. There's a lot of Bird. One of the things that him on defense reminds me a lot. Bird always had the. The reputation of being not a good defensive player. Meanwhile, he made all defenses and was always up there in steals. But, but his ability, Jokic, his ability to read what the other team's going to do on offense and know what they're doing in advance and then fuck it up basically before as they're doing it, jumping in these spots where they're like, oh, I didn't know somebody was going to be there. He's just. His brain's always moving. It's. In person. It's unbelievable. I never thought after Bird of Magic, I never thought I would see somebody that processed a game like that, you know, And I. To me, that's the standard.
- [122:00]
Bob Ryan
There's always a danger of allowing yourself to think that way. I've done it myself. I'm not going to. You're never going to see anything. I mean, when Havoc retired, you know, of course, and we haven't seen. And we were talking earlier about styles and individualistic people and people that John. There hasn't been another Havoc. But the point is an effectiveness. Bird comes along, you know, and renders John as one A and Celtic pantheon now instead of one. Yeah. You got to prepare yourself for the evolution of the game. This guy is really ultra special. And, you know, and the thing that made Bird so special, ultimately, was the mind game and playing, thinking two steps ahead. And now we got a big guy taller than him that, you know, that can do that as well. No, it's, it's, it's. He understands the game, the game in a way that somebody. Other guys never, never, never will. No, no.
- [122:57]
Bill Simmons
So you have, you have like, there's that Hakeem Moses, Shaq kind of area, right? Maybe Giannis is like right underneath it. And you already have Jokic in that area, potentially looking at that spot right under Wilt and Kareem.
- [123:12]
Bob Ryan
Oh, he said a bridge right now. You're kidding. First of all, my number four is Hakeem. Okay? He's my number four. Okay. So. Oh, so we're in between. He's closer to the big three. Did he. Instead of four. I mean, he's Going to be in that. He's going to have to be in that discussion, you know, and, and people going to hire him on Championships. Will won two, you know, and, and the other guys won multiple. And Russell, of course won 11 and Kareem won what, six, whatever five or six.
- [123:41]
Bill Simmons
Shaq had four, Moses had one.
- [123:44]
Bob Ryan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, Moses, you know, was, wasn't pretty, but he was effective. But anyway, Robert Parish got three, by the way. Because he got one with the Bulls, by the way. Although he wasn't, you know, prominent.
- [123:56]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [123:57]
Bob Ryan
Anyway, anyway, he's got, I got him in, in between. We're four. He's a three and a half right now, on his way up.
- [124:06]
Bill Simmons
All right, so we go. We're your, your whole premise that I loved. We're playing the aliens and we can grab anybody. And Yage, Jokic, Bird and Magic agree to come. Now we need to find two more guys to put with those three where we're just like, we're just gonna have the aliens backpedaling, not knowing what's happening. Just amazing passing. Who are the other two people playing with Jokic, Bird of Magic?
- [124:31]
Bob Ryan
Well, I still want Michael.
- [124:33]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [124:34]
Bob Ryan
You know. And you know who I'll take now because that gives me a weapon, you know, not since I got Magic. I got the ball handling, I got the orchestration, I got the fast break, I got everything settled. You know, who's to run it? I got, I got special qualities that he had. Stefan Kerr. Why not? Wow.
- [124:53]
Bill Simmons
See what for the spaces of all.
- [124:55]
Bob Ryan
Time, you know, and I'm coming. I mean, the greatest shooter of all time. I don't need LeBron, you know, multi skilled. I don't need LeBron. I'll bring him off the bench. He could be my sixth man. He won't like it.
- [125:07]
Bill Simmons
Be an amazing six man.
- [125:08]
Bob Ryan
What a wonderful six man that would be.
- [125:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [125:12]
Bob Ryan
Why would we dismiss the greatest shooter of all time and who's a team guy? Oh, by the way. Who can also pass? By the way, he's people. He's not a point guard. He's a point guard who can pass, period. He's not a point guard. He doesn't think that's. It's not his role. But he can pass and will. And by the way, the other thing is under how well he goes to the hoop with either hand, you know, that set up things for himself and other people in the long run. Curry. So Andrew, and I'm just. This is on the fly question that you ask and I'm my first. Why not that with the guys you name, he'd fit in perfectly.
- [125:50]
Bill Simmons
If Maravich had a three point line. Are we talking about him in the 60s and 70s like we talk about Curry?
- [125:57]
Bob Ryan
Yeah, well, remember the gleg. The game came. The shot came in in his last year. Yeah, 1979. 80. He. When he joined the Celtics in the mid season, he did make. He's a guy that scored 68 points in Madison Square Garden without a three, averaged 44 points a game and 44 people. Youngins, the guy averaged 44 points a game in three years of college basketball at LSU without a three.
- [126:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [126:23]
Joanna Robinson
And.
- [126:23]
Bob Ryan
And he had that. You know, he would have done what. What so many of them who didn't would have done. Go home and work on it. And he would have gotten, you know, certain guys that occasionally took shots in that range and when it was considered to be a bad shot and sometimes they went in, you know, he, he would have worked on that shot. He would. But he made some threes. I remember some games where he had effective threes for the Celtics. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. It's just because you know they've done these estimates, you know, which I at lsu going over to game films and trying to project what his average would have been had he made had.
- [127:01]
Bill Simmons
Well, he also would have taken more of them though because if he knew there were three instead of two, he's taken 20 a game.
- [127:06]
Bob Ryan
It's like Larry, it's like Larry people that anybody. My God, you imagine how we flourish today. If you tell him, oh you can take 10 or 12 a game. You know, Larry would embarrassingly would take four or five because it was you know, you know there. And part of, you know, he famously didn't want the three, didn't like it.
- [127:23]
Bill Simmons
And well, he's, he's the more as the weapon. It was like a. Either to get the crowd going or to demoralize people. Yeah.
- [127:30]
Bob Ryan
Yes, he did as a psychological weapon more often than not. And, and saved his spots and, and but he would have. Hey, if you said okay, if that's the game, I can play that game. And he would have gone. Well, he gotten better. A lot of guys like in, you know what. By the way, you know who would have been ready made for the game. I can still see him with the. Jerry Lucas. Jerry Lucas was bowing threes before there were threes from. At six with that shot put thing he had. You know, I can still see him with legs extended. And he shot it from here. Not, not here. He shot it from here. But you know, but the dis. Anyway, Lucas would have been a phenomenal three point shooter.
- [128:05]
Bill Simmons
Stretch four, getting 15 rebounds a game.
- [128:08]
Bob Ryan
Jerry Lucas and then computing his season's average in his head as he worked back down on defense. Famously computing his recomputing his shooting percentage as he would go back down on defense.
- [128:21]
Bill Simmons
Where do you put Giannis in all of this? Because he just got knocked out of the first round again.
- [128:27]
Bob Ryan
He's spectacular. He's not, you know, now we were talking centers earlier, but. Oh yeah, I think the question now is going to be the rearrangement of the all time 10, you know, the all time 10, you know, you know, how can you not include him in any current discussion about all time top 10 players? I can't. I can ignore him. I'm sometimes in awe of him. I am a little annoyed that he has legalized not just a euro step, but in his case a euro gallop. And it's, that's this whole thing is this whole traveling thing. I used to laugh it off, but it is epidemic. It is bad and the league doesn't seem to care about it. And, and he's an exhibit A, you know, and, and how devastating it is when he can do it because he can go from mid court to basket no more than two dribbles, you know, with ways, oh, he's phenomenal, I think. And this whole issue with the buck, that's a whole, you know, that's, that's worth a, you know, lots of discussion.
- [129:30]
Bill Simmons
Listen, they gave up a lot of assets for Jrue Holiday and then Dame Lillard and that's it.
- [129:35]
Bob Ryan
I know. I, and, and, and what could they possibly get and who could afford them and could they possibly get back that would make it even remotely worthwhile? I, I not that in my head. I don't have the, the scope of the, the, the vision of or knowledge of all the teams, individual circumstances to know who could possibly make anything remotely a deal that the Milwaukee would ever want. But they have to start thinking about it. Whether or not it's all, you know, clearly it's over. And where's Doc from here? So I don't know whether that either.
- [130:04]
Bill Simmons
I'm hoping Doc comes back on my podcast. The Milwaukee has no first round picks that they control of their own over the next five years, which makes the tanking a little bit harder. I got one more guy for you. SGA is another guy who feels like he easily could have existed in 1974. Right.
- [130:24]
Bob Ryan
He's a 20, he's a tremendous guard and he's tremendous and you know, he's, he, I'm trying to think of, I can't think of, you know, among all the great two guards. Does he remind me of anybody? No, I just see him as a wonderful all around shooting guard, period. But I do, I love the idea, by the way, that that team has an all Canadian backcourt.
- [130:49]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [130:49]
Bob Ryan
And you know, Dort's Canadian, he's from Montreal do. And so I love that they go. I'm still waiting for Canada to make a splash in the world in the Olympics sometime soon. You know, I mean, but they choke every, every time.
- [131:04]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they fall apart at some point.
- [131:07]
Bob Ryan
I don't, I know it, they, they're massive underachievers Canada. But you know, we, you know, anyway. Oh yeah, he, he, I could see FGA, you know, in, in the 1974 Player Championship Series, you know, I can see him. Yeah. Absolutely. Positively. Yeah. He's, he's not. So you have no, that I can come up with.
- [131:31]
Bill Simmons
You have OKC still as the favorite because Vegas would agree with you.
- [131:35]
Bob Ryan
I, I, I think that. No, honest to God. I mean, I know it sounds parochial. I'm sorry. I still think that if everybody is fortunate enough to be healthy and able to bring their A game, that the Celtics can win and will win if they're fortunate enough. But right now the variables there, starting with, you know, Holiday, starting with Ned Brown and will somebody, you know, mess around with Tatum's wrist and poor Zingus, you never know when he's going to take a misstep. Never know. You can't count on too many what ifs there for me to be totally confident. But I'm saying if they show up in the finals healthy, you know, then, and, and, and I don't care how and I want everybody to be healthy. I still like their chances. Okay. She's interesting though. There's no question about it. And I'll tell you who's I'm, I'm, I've read about, you know, I mean, I was prepared for him, but having read about him before he ever set foot in college. But my God, Holmgren is good. Holmgren's good. He's a, he's a, he's a very, very useful player. And, and, and Hartenstein, he's not a star, but he knows who he is and he knows what his job is. Right. And, and, and he, he does it well. And of course then the, you know, the rest of the team fine and, and well coached, of course. So yeah, I like that. And as far as, and Cleveland don't dismiss Cleveland, but when. Again, right now, they're doing it without Garland as we speak. And, you know, I think they would. They're not going to go all the way without their full complement, but, you know, they're good. Salute, Mobley. Defensive player of the year. No, they're. They're good, too. But I still honestly believe that the Celtics have more assets ultimately than anybody. I still think, if they're healthy.
- [133:23]
Bill Simmons
Is this Celtics team. Where is it creeping up on the popularity rankings in Boston? Just. It just seems like people love. You know, they have a real history now with Tatemond Brown because those guys grew up on the team. Porzingis is a cult hero. Horford is among the most popular role player. Plus guys they've ever had. Holiday and White are impossible not to like. Pritchard's a fan favorite. Yeah. It's just you go on and on. It's like everybody loves everybody on this team. I don't remember many teams like this on the Celtics.
- [133:55]
Bob Ryan
And the vastly underrated Luke Cornett, who's been a nice adjunct to this team. Okay, you're right. Well, this. This is a new generation. You know, this is their team. This is. The Celtics have had, you know, four or five incarnations. Well, you got the 50s, then you got the. You got the 50s and 60s team, that's one. You got the Havoc Challenge team, that's two. You got the Big Three team, that's three. You got the second Big Three team, that's four. This is the fifth Celtic incarnation, you know, of greatness and. And a new fandom. I see so many young people in the stands. I'm, you know, and it's terrific. And it is. What a likable bunch, you know, I mean, it is. It's just. There's no polarizing players. Marcus Smart, who I loved, but acknowledged his foibles. Yeah. To me, and he and Jackie Bradley Jr were like Siamese twins of sports.
- [134:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [134:49]
Bob Ryan
Okay. And, you know, I love Jackie Bradley Jr. To the, you know, I don't care if you're 180, but there's no polarizing. Who's a polarizing player? Unless people want to manufacture something about, you know, oh, Brownie dribbles into traffic. He still doesn't have a left hand. All right, Blah, blah, blah. You know, that's as close as I can come to any kind of a negative. You're right. It's a beloved team and very well worth rooting for.
- [135:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And it's something that, I mean, I certainly grew up with, where everybody stayed on the same teams. And then in the last 15 years that kind of got blown up and people move around more and you have something like Jokic in Denver, you have Curry and Golden State or you have Brown and Tatum together in Boston with Horford. And I do think it's more meaningful to the fan base and to the people at the games. They have real history with these guys. And we tried to capture some of that in the Celtic City about these generations, how they overlap and how people buy in and people overlap with the stars from the previous generation. And does this stuff actually exist? And I do think those guys care about that. I think Missoula cares about it. You know, I think the organization cares about it.
- [136:02]
Bob Ryan
That came across clear. Well, it sure came across clearly how Garnett and Pierce felt about it in near time.
- [136:11]
Bill Simmons
How about Ray Allen? Ray Allen's like, I'm a Celtic. He only played five years. And he's like, I am a Celtic. I consider myself a Celtic.
- [136:18]
Bob Ryan
That did, that did surprise me. You know, I, I, he was always kind of a little bit inscrutable as far as I'm concerned. And that was good to know. Yeah, that was really good to know. No, it's, it's all true. So that, but oh, by the way, I'm going to give. I can't leave you without filling out. I decided Peyton Pritchard is a cross between Larry Siegfried and Eddie House.
- [136:44]
Bill Simmons
Wow. I'm probably one of the only ones that's going to get that one. What's the Larry Siegfried part?
- [136:50]
Bob Ryan
Well, he's same rough size.
- [136:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [136:54]
Bob Ryan
Close and feisty. Tough. He's a scrapper. Yeah. I can still hear Johnny most in his shirt. Sick.
- [137:03]
Bill Simmons
He's in his shirt.
- [137:05]
Bob Ryan
Well, I can see that Peyton's in his shirt. He said, and he's good for one sneaky offensive rebound a night.
- [137:12]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [137:13]
Bob Ryan
And he said he's, and he's tough. He's not just this three point machine. He's a good basketball player. And I love it when he takes himself inside and finds a way to get the shot off, you know, and sometimes they block it. Okay, fine. But he can, I love him. That's the secret. And of course, you know, the Eddie House part is self evident. You know, the, the, the three point. But that's a cross between House.
- [137:39]
Bill Simmons
Before we go, you were, you were a big part of Celtic City. So we did nine episodes. We tried to cover 80 years of the team. When you saw all that laid out episode by episode, like did you had like what, what were you expecting? And then how did you feel as you watched it?
- [137:54]
Bob Ryan
Well, first of all, you can't, you can't do everything, as you well know. You know, there are a couple of things I would like to have seen addressed at the time, maybe more thoroughly or at all, but I'm not remotely going to nitpick. I thought it was a spectacular job. I thought that they got the essence of it. You accomplished your mission. That's what I thought. I could say they've accomplished their mission. And then tied it up with a wonderful bow. With the 95 year old Bob Cousy saying how much he wanted the 18th championship to keep the continuum that he could relate to and feel a part of going. That was exactly what you were trying to portray, I think in, in the spirit of that. And, and, oh no, I thought it was terrific. I'll tell you, it was a hard episode. Was, was eight. It was eight. That was, you know, seven Reggie Lewis. That was hard. You know, they lived. When you lived through it, you know, and, and I'm sure a lot of us, I know how I felt watching it and, and, but yeah, it's real, it's part of the deal. You know, those, those things happened and it was a, a down period and, and, and, and it was, you know, those things were just frightening. But it was just awful. But bias. And we didn't know, you know, I had seen. I was so excited about him because I happened to have stumbled. I don't know what I was doing, Bill. I have no idea why I was in Durham, North Carolina that particular evening and why I was. Because I don't know what kind of feature or whatever I was doing. I was there at Cameron North Stadium the night as a Maryland player, he dropped 40 on Duke. He got my attention. I could see.
- [139:30]
Bill Simmons
You went to that game.
- [139:32]
Bob Ryan
I was at the game when he got 40 at Duke. My God. And then twice, twice Mike Krzyzewski said to me that the greatest two opponents he ever faced in college were Michael Jordan and Len Bias. And, and you know, and I'm, and I know how excited Larry was. Larry was going to come to Curly early and work with him and play with him and you know, he was, Larry was, Larry was up to on him. He knew, he knew, he was really excited about it. To think all this happened in a flash and you know, 36 hours, it was just astonishing.
- [140:04]
Bill Simmons
But anyway, we tried to hit that. I mean that episode, not exactly a feel good episode, but that 90s Boston, how dark it got. Like the Garden got knocked down. Bias And Reggie, the Red Sox.
- [140:19]
Bob Ryan
If I said eight, I meant whichever one encompassed the burden.
- [140:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [140:24]
Bob Ryan
Okay, okay. But oh no, that, that group and, and I love the Rick was. You got Wick there saying Danny, how do you put together a big three? You know and, and well here's how you do it, you know, right. You take your, your fifth round, your, your, your number five pick and trade every Ray Allen and, and now you could you persuade Kevin or Garnett to come and now you got a big three. I'll tell you what I remember though about me and I'm on record, I mean I can't deny it, I printed it that when they put the big three together originally, that second big three, I said yeah, well guess what? You need a lot more than that. I wouldn't trade. There's no team in the league would trade their next, their final other nine for the next Celtic nine that they got the worst. The port upon which they went out and got Eddie House, James Posey and then of course pj, which was a great story about being recruited, literally being recruited by the big three or points of thereof. And so I was, you know, I was a skeptic. I didn't think it was going to be enough, but never dreamed it would just come together as quickly as it did. Those guys were so ready to do it, you know to, to get it to have a. They recognized what the possibility was and they were so ready to do it. And, and it was going to require the word sacrifice. It's going to require a, A balance of, of skills that they're going to have to calibrate. I love that word, calibrate their skills to get the most out of it. But ultimately there was no. There's nobody like Kevin Garnett. There's never that you can't. He's special in terms of the, you know, the approach that he would as good as all around scale players. Pierce was and great shooter Allen was, you know, we all know that the ultimate key person on that whole thing that made it work was. Was Kevin Garnett.
- [142:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. The sad thing you talked about earlier how you don't judge players by championships. You look at KG like just this completely misused asset in Minnesota forever. Like gets drafted in 95, we head to 2007, he's won two playoff series and meanwhile everybody's like I think he might be the best player in the league. Like nobody even knew how to put him in context. Cause he just had such bad luck. His owner gets penalized for the Joe Smith signing and they lose like three first round picks in a low like, like Stephon Marbury just decides he wants to go to New Jersey and that happens. Like, it's just, yeah. There's 30 different things that prevented him from ever succeeding in the NBA in the way he should have. Of which sometimes that's how it plays out.
- [142:58]
Bob Ryan
I don't want to hold that against him unless I have a certain, you know, antipathy for somebody in a sense, you know, I, I, I like to hold it against them, but, but if I don't care about them personally and their game, then, you know, fine. And it's like, you know who I think I got tired of people jumping on because he's never won a championship and obviously never will? Chris Paul. It's not his fault. And once again, we get back to a little guy thing. Yeah, you know, Chris Paul's great player, great point guard, a Claire, a technically pure point guard. Perfect guy. You know, in that job, it's in the worthy hall of Famer. So I'm sorry, I don't judge him for not having won a championship anymore. And I judge Stockton for not having one. They could, I hold Karl Malone accountable, though. I think they could have beaten the Bulls in 97 for sure and should have. Mrs. Freed goes, he's not a guy you want in a big moment. I'm telling you, Karl Malone was not. I think he's the most overrated great player, supposed great player in NBA history. I do. He's not on my list of top 10 wins at all.
- [144:03]
Bill Simmons
He's one of the main reasons I decided to write a basketball book, because I didn't want people 50 years from now to be putting him in the top 10 because of his stats. It's like, we got it. We got to fix this. Somebody's got to go on the record.
- [144:14]
Bob Ryan
You'll love this. I, I don't know for. There was a period of time when I carried in my wallet a little list of 10 forwards better than Karl Malone. I swear to God, it was such a topic for me.
- [144:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [144:32]
Bob Ryan
He's not a bad human being or anything like that, you know. No, that's not it. But I just, all those thousands and hundreds of millions of points and, and I, I, I'm sorry, he doesn't, he wasn't a guy you want.
- [144:45]
Bill Simmons
Your other guy, like that was Elvin Hayes.
- [144:47]
Bob Ryan
Oh.
- [144:49]
Bill Simmons
Who ends up winning the title. But he's, wasn't he like, benched in the fourth quarter when they actually won the title? I forget the story yeah, he was.
- [144:57]
Bob Ryan
In the game Seven. He went out of the game whatever reason, and Mitch Kupchak came in and made the big play of the game and his. That he wouldn't have been in the game if. If Helvin hadn't come out. So they wouldn't have won if Alvin hadn't been watching from the bench. That. Yeah, that's for sure. And I loved it. I'll tell you What, I relished 1975 when the. When the warriors swept them and the rookie Keith Wilkes, 6, 6, 1, God knows what, 80, 90, outplayed Elvin Hayes, you know, 4 inches taller, 50 pounds heavier, you know, and he outplayed Alvin Hayes. I loved every second of that.
- [145:36]
Bill Simmons
Do you think Hardin is the. This generation's version of those guys?
- [145:42]
Bob Ryan
Harden?
- [145:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, like I said, yeah.
- [145:45]
Bob Ryan
Yeah. I can't stand watching them play. And I'm. And I'm so, to a degree, I am, you know, vindicated that he doesn't come up in the playoffs the way people think he should. You know, I just can't stand watching that dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble game. And I always say he must have bribed every scorekeeper in the league. I don't know how. Those assists. I don't remember any of these assists, but they're there to the point the league. Right. I guess I still can't believe it. I don't know how, but I mean, that's just my personal preference. And I'm not a big hardened guy.
- [146:20]
Bill Simmons
Where do you stand on Embiid, on Joel Embiid?
- [146:28]
Bob Ryan
Oh, Embiid. M sounds. I said the beast. I want to like him very. I love his game, you know, I mean, I love his range of skill and offense is tremendous. And I've seen him in games where I just love the way watch him play. But there's something. And he, you know, and he's an engaging online presence, that's for sure. But he's on another level. He's not. You know, he's not. Even though he did get an mvp. And I think I would have. Would have voted for him, but, you know, he's not Jokic and he's not Giannis. He's. The next. Is another level down where he belongs. But. But he's on. He's on the way to the hall of Fame. There's no. I have no problem with that.
- [147:06]
Bill Simmons
All right. All right. This was a good hour.
- [147:10]
Bob Ryan
Thing is stay healthy. You know, he's. He has a hard time Staying healthy.
- [147:14]
Bill Simmons
Well, you've, I mean, you've been watching this forever. These centers, once the injuries start, it's not like it gets better once, you know, they're like buildings with, like, real structural foundation problems. And then at some point it becomes a problem and it feels like it's like once you've had a few of those surgeries, injuries, whatever. I don't know. I just don't. When you're 7 foot 2, I don't know how you like, oh, no, I'm fine. You know, I don't see it.
- [147:39]
Bob Ryan
Yeah, big guys. You're right. You're right. It's a good point.
- [147:42]
Bill Simmons
So, like, I saw Kyrie Irving at the Laker game yesterday, right? And he tore his ACL. I feel like he can come back. He's 6 2. Like, you know, he's a guard. He can, I feel like he can bring back his movement and get back in a year. But when you, you know, you've had a bunch of these anyway. All right. Well, that was a really fun hour. I'm glad we caught up. I needed your take on a bunch of stuff. Bob Ryan, thanks for being Celtic City, by the way, but great to see you as always. Hope all is well.
- [148:07]
Bob Ryan
Thanks for having me there and I appreciate it very much, Sean.
- [148:10]
Bill Simmons
All right. Thanks to Mahoney and Joanna and Bob, thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. You can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch this as a video podcast on Spotify. Going forward, we are going to be live on Sunday at some point. We don't really know the basketball schedule yet, but it's going to be me and Marcillo at some point on Sunday and we'll be going live on YouTube for that. Enjoy the weekend. I will see you on Sunday. Must be 21 plus and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit@ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great games, Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelobo Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobotra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 Sweepstakes no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobutra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business, your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses, not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common, LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on, so find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free, terms and conditions apply.