An Epic Spurs-Thunder Series, Cleveland Survives, and the Knicks' Moment Is HERE With Zach Lowe

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast An Epic Spurs-Thunder Series, Cleveland Survives, and the Knicks' Moment Is HERE Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN's Zach Lowe to break down a massive NBA playoff weekend: Cleveland's hard-fought Game 7 win over Detroit, the emerging storylines for the Cavs-Knicks Eastern Conference Finals, and a deep-dive preview of the hugely anticipated Western Conference Finals between the San Antonio Spurs and the Oklahoma City Thunder. The conversation unpacks game tactics, player legacies, looming offseason questions (including the Giannis trade market), and NBA history, with plenty of trademark banter, stats, and betting lines.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. Cavaliers Survive the Pistons: Mitchell Takes Center Stage

• Donovan Mitchell's Breakthrough: After nine years and 77 playoff games, Mitchell finally reaches his first Conference Finals.
  • Lowe credits Mitchell's improved playmaking—highlighting his 7 assists—as the defining change:
    "He just slowed down, played at a better pace... looking actively for the big guys instead of searching for his own points." (03:00)
  • Simmons contextualizes Mitchell’s career among “what if” stars, referencing Dominique Wilkins:
    "Felt like we were heading that way with Mitchell—awesome career, never got to be in the Final Four.” (04:36)
• Cleveland's Adjustments:
  • The starting lineup tweak (Max Strus in, Wade out)
  • Sam Merrill’s increased minutes adds vital shooting
  • More Mobley usage in the pick and roll invigorated the offense (07:21)
• Detroit's Collapse:
  • Duran’s disappointing close to the series spirals extension questions (13:13)
  • Stewart’s regression from key bench piece to liability (14:38)
  • Trade deadline inaction and a lack of a secondary creator hurts (15:38)

2. Knicks-Cavs and the Eastern Finals: A Historic Opportunity for New York

• Knicks Are the Favorite: Both Simmons and Lowe strongly favor New York.
  • Simmons: “Easily their best chance to make the Finals since 1994.” (22:08)
  • Betting line: Knicks -240, Cavs +190 (22:33)
• The Knicks' Moment:
  • OG Anunoby’s Health is seen as a key swing variable (23:36)
  • The fanbase is described as “absolutely giddy,” but Lowe warns the loss would be “absolutely crushing” (24:58)
• Cleveland’s Playoff Window and Team Building:
  • Both hosts place this Cavs squad in the tradition of “get over the hump” teams (Marc Price Cavs, Grit-n-Grind Grizzlies, Lob City Clippers) (28:50)
  • Simmons: “This is their window right now... this is a four-year road to this series.” (28:50)

3. Deep-Dive: Spurs vs Thunder Preview — Most Anticipated Series in Years

• Historic Anticipation:
  • Both agree this is the biggest series since Cavs-Warriors I (2015) or Warriors-Thunder (2016).
  • Pandemic-era and parity cited as reasons there haven't been more mammoth matchups (49:20)
• Legacy Stakes:
  • Shea Gilgeous-Alexander aiming for a rare back-to-back MVP/Finals MVP run
  • Chet Holmgren vs. Wemby: seeds of a real rivalry (67:05)
  • Sam Presti cementing himself among the immortals of NBA GMs if OKC advances (68:55)
  • Key role players (e.g., A.J. Mitchell, Alex Caruso) and their importance highlighted
• Tactical Battles:
  • Thunder’s versatile guard lineups vs Spurs’ innovative small-ball “three pit bulls and Wemby” approach (72:05)
  • How both teams defend Wemby and Chet, with chess-match predictions on rotations and matchups (74:31)
  • Spurs’ 37-3 mark (since Feb 1 when Wemby plays 15+ min) cited as “unimpeachable” evidence (81:28)

Memorable Quotes:

• "This feels like the single biggest series we've had, at least since the first Cavs, Warriors one." — Simmons (49:20)
• Lowe: “February 1st on, the Spurs are 37-3 in games when Wemby plays at least 15 minutes. They just don’t lose.” (80:53)

Predictions

• Simmons picks the Spurs (in 6), citing the “lightning in a bottle” feeling and the 1977 Blazers parallel (83:38).
• Lowe takes Thunder in 7 for experience and homecourt, but concedes “the Spurs can absolutely win the championship” (84:34).
• Both agree this could be a classic, long series—betting odds for 6 or 7 games are discussed (86:49).

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4. Offseason & Trade Storylines: Pistons, Wolves, and Giannis

Detroit Pistons: Future Questions

• Duran’s contract situation looms large after underwhelming playoffs (13:13–14:19)
• Stewart becomes a likely trade chip after playoff regression
• Simmons faults the Herder deadline move and stresses need for a second creator (15:38)

Minnesota Timberwolves: On the Cusp or Out of Steam?

• Recognition of their “awesome three years” after decades of futility (93:07)
• But Simmons bluntly states: “You can’t bring Randle back” after another playoff fade (93:34)
• Lack of flexibility for a big trade; doubts they’ll move much beyond this level (92:43)

The Giannis Trade Market Paradox

• Both hosts note a “lukewarm market” for Giannis Antetokounmpo
  • Simmons: “I can’t really find the team for Giannis.” (96:00)
  • Lowe relays league chatter expecting a trade but few suitors fit (99:05)
• Miami is highlighted as a possible fit—but no one loves a prospective package (99:51)
• Simmons points to risk factors: “injury history, year 14 for bigs, and the short window” (97:26, 100:14)
• The “Hail Mary” route for a team like Brooklyn or the Clippers is explored (104:47)
• Summary: Despite “everyone assuming he’ll be traded,” the right destination remains a mystery.

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5. Historical Journeys & League Trends

Most Anticipated Series Since LeBron's Miami Move

• Both hosts rank the biggest postseason showdowns since 2011:
  • Spurs-Thunder 2012
  • Warriors-Thunder 2016
  • Heat-Spurs 2014
  • 2016 Finals (73-win Warriors vs LeBron's Cavs)
  • 2018 Western Finals (Chris Paul’s Rockets vs Durant’s Warriors)
    Extensive timestamped ranking, legacy context, and honorables (51:43, 54:27, 55:29)

Knicks' Potential Title — The NBA's Biggest Remaining Story?

• Simmons: “The Knicks winning the championship is the biggest thing left in any sport other than the Bills, Vikings, or Lions winning a Super Bowl.” (44:21)
• Lowe: “...They're the Knicks. This is by far the best chance.” (45:34)

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6. Notable Quotes & Banter

• On Donovan Mitchell’s Breakout:
  "Game 7, Jared Allen showed up. As a result, Evan Mobley played, I think, his fourth really nice game in a row." — Lowe (02:57)
• On Pistons' Failure to Add Scoring:
  “You’re putting all your eggs in the Tobias Harris basket... They did not have that other scorer they could trust.” — Simmons (15:38)
• On the Historical Importance of Spurs-Thunder:
  “If we get a Game 7 in this Spurs–Thunder series—Oh my God... we’re going to feel [those stakes].” — Simmons (61:07)
• On Wembanyama’s Impact:
  “They just don’t lose. When he plays a real game, they don’t lose anymore.” — Lowe (80:53)
• On the Pandemic Impact on Playoff Anticipation:
  “The pandemic fucked up, like, two and a half seasons...” — Lowe (49:29)
• On the Giannis Market:
  “I can't really find the team for Giannis. I thought this would be a lot easier last year. The market is tepid…” — Simmons (96:00)
• On Knicks Fan Suffering:
  “They had the will to live for the rest of their lives crushed out of them by the Haliburton shot.” — Simmons (25:08)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:32–11:57: Cavaliers-Pistons Game 7, Cavs adjustments, Detroit’s collapse
• 12:41–18:10: Pistons future: Duran, Stewart, trade asset dilemma
• 18:13–24:58: Knicks-Cavs: matchup preview, Knicks’ best chance in 30 years
• 28:50–32:35: “Get over the hump” team archetype, legacies, conference finals pressure
• 43:07–47:27: Knicks' fanbase stakes, what a Knicks title would mean
• 48:07–55:29: Spurs-Thunder preview, most anticipated series debates since LeBron’s Miami move
• 67:00–84:34: Legacy stakes for SGA, Chet, Presti; role player importance; rotation chess match
• 89:12–93:32: Minnesota’s crossroads post-defeat
• 95:55–105:45: Giannis Antetokounmpo trade value/no obvious market
• 107:41–end: Final predictions, last thoughts, and a brief combine chat

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Episode Summary Table

| Segment | Timestamp | Topic | |---------|--------------|---------------------------------------------------| | 1 | 01:32–11:57 | Cavs survive Game 7, Mitchell’s evolution | | 2 | 12:41–18:10 | Detroit’s future & contract questions | | 3 | 18:13–24:58 | Knicks’ opportunity, conference final preview | | 4 | 28:50–32:35 | Team-building, legacies, conference final stakes | | 5 | 43:07–47:27 | Knicks fanbase, emotional stakes of a title run | | 6 | 48:07–55:29 | Spurs-Thunder: historical anticipation | | 7 | 67:00–84:34 | Legacy discussion: SGA, Wemby, Presti, tactics | | 8 | 89:12–93:32 | Wolves’ future after playoff exit | | 9 | 95:55–105:45 | Giannis’ market and offseason rumor mill | | 10 | 107:41–end | Final picks, combine stories, wrap-up |

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Final Predictions & Takeaways

• Eastern Conference Finals: Both Simmons and Lowe pick the Knicks over the Cavs, likely in 5-6 games.
• Western Conference Finals: Simmons picks Spurs (in 6, betting Spurs to win Game 1 and series); Lowe leans Thunder in 7, citing experience and home court.
• Legacy Stakes: Both agree the Spurs-Thunder matchup is not only the most anticipated series in almost a decade but will also ripple through NBA history—potentially shaping the league's next great rivalry and opening the path for a historic Knicks title story.

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For listeners (and non-listeners alike), this episode is a master class in playoff narrative storytelling, NBA history, and tactics—with Bill and Zach’s signature blend of data, humor, and sports bar-level mutual ribbing.

Transcript

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[Bill Simmons]

All right, Bill Simmons Podcast live on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. We thought we'd be starting after the Cavaliers Pistons game, but the Pistons had other ideas and so did the Cavaliers. I wanted to mention new rewatchables coming on Monday. We did Borat. It was me and Kyle Brandt. It's turned into Politically Incorrect Comedy Month on the Rewatchable. So we have that Zach Lowe is gonna be Tuesday morning, Thursday morning as we head into and absolutely awesome Round three. I'm very excited the Knicks might make the Finals.

[Zach Lowe]

Don't jinx it. Don't don't jinx my spurs and Thunder.

[Bill Simmons]

Spurs and Thunder. We're going to talk about where this this matchup ranks for us, but we'll start with Cavs Pistons. So wrote down. Great win for Cleveland and Donovan Mitchell fans and supporters. Decent win for James Harden Truthers. Great win for the Knicks because they now have home court in the Eastern Conference finals. They have 1, 2, 5 and 7. Where do you want to start with those?

[Zach Lowe]

What truth what truth do the James Harden Truthers subscribe to?

[Bill Simmons]

He's one of the 40 best players of all time that he's actually come up big in some playoff games. They just all happen to be in series that his team eventually lost bad luck against the Warriors a couple times. Four conference finals. I don't know. What else would they say?

[Zach Lowe]

I think we should start with Donovan Mitchell and getting over the hump into the conference finals. I mean he had the stats are not overwhelming but I thought he played awesome and the seven assists is to me the defining Stat of the game for him. I just thought he like slowed down, played with a better pace, kept his dribble alive a little bit longer on the picket roll, like looking actively for the big guys instead of like that, that, that overhead carry he does. It used to be like a once a game kind of thing. And it, it became like five times a game as he was searching for his own points and playing a little frazzled. And I thought he was just under control. Got the big guys involved. Game 7, Jared Allen showed up. As a result, Evan Mobley played, I think his fourth really nice game in a row. And just like we get Cleveland, Knicks, which is like the road not taken for Donovan Mitchell. The road not taken for the Knicks after acquiring Jaylen Brunson and flirting with pairing him with Donovan Mitchell, who allegedly always dreamed of playing for the Knicks. He's from here. His family is still all in the Northeast. His dad works for the Mets. On and on. So we get like that road not taken. JB Bickerstaff doesn't get to avenge his firing from Cleveland. And, and you know, I like the. The Cavs paid a high price for Donovan Mitchell. Like Lowry, Markkanen. The gap between Mitchell and Lowry, Markkanen and whatever. Your player rankings are shrunk dramatically since that trade and the three picks and the two swaps. And I think now you have to look at it as you paid full freight. But here you are in the conference finals with like a Knicks team that I think is going to be the favorite. I will pick them to win the series, but they're not unbeatable. But Cleveland, Cleveland has a chance in this series to get to the finals.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I had Mitchell as the top story, too. Nine years, 77th playoff game tonight, never made conference finals, which becomes a weird list when you've had a really good career and you've made small MBAs, but you've never made it past round two. And I don't know who the most famous player on that list is, but I always think of Dominique Wilkins when I think of lists like that. And all the what ifs with his career and how like if the Lakers had just taken him over James Worthy and if he had been able to get by the Celtics once or the Pistons, anybody. And had this awesome career, but never even got to be in the final four. Felt like we were heading that way with Mitchell Friday night. I just was stupefied by Friday night. I thought for sure the Cavs are going to win. I don't know what happened to them. They looked Lethargic. The Pistons, they had so many turnovers in that. In the Friday night game. And then today we were texting during the, near the end of the first half, that Cavs had two turnovers with like four minutes left in the second quarter. And honestly that felt like part of the difference because Detroit's, Detroit's offense was so iffy. They really needed that energy stuff and they needed like the two on ones and the blocks and going the other way and they just, just didn't, didn't get any of those today. And it's just a lethargic game all the way around. Cade wasn't good. Mitchell was the best guy on the floor. The, the point you made about the getting the big guys above, I almost wonder, did they look at the tapes of the first six games and notice that every time they drove to the basketball, the Pistons bigs and Thompson were just flying at those guys trying to block the shots. And like they told Mitchell, when you go to the basket, look for Allen, look for Mobley. Because those guys over and over again were rolling and they seemed like they were unimpeded. So it almost felt like a football strategy flip of like they keep doing this zag this way. And Mitchell bought in because the thing with Mitchell there, it was a storyline that he was averaging what, 2.9 assists in the playoffs. That's terrible. He's supposed to be the guy who makes everybody else better and he wasn't. But he did tonight.

[Zach Lowe]

I think if they lost this game and he had another game like that, the number one takeaway, I mean all the big takeaways would have been the big picture Cav. Stuff that we don't have to discuss now. Like what are they going to do? Is this the team of the future? Who do they trade? Kenny Atkinson, all that stuff is stable. But the biggest basketball takeaway would have been what happened to Donovan Mitchell's playmaking. Like I thought this was going to develop into a real strength of his game and it kind of had just disappeared in the playoffs. He was, he was not making passes that were there to be made. He was, he was not looking for them. He was just playing. I keep using the word frazzled. He looked a little sped up and just not in his normal state of mind. And tonight he, he was really, really under control and really good and a little black hole.

[Bill Simmons]

Ish. Before tonight I felt like just a lot like not that fun to play with would have been my take and

[Zach Lowe]

out of sync sometimes with Harden. I mean, gradually starting in game three and Excluding the just inexplicable egg they laid in game 6, 3, 4, 5, 7. You started to see the Cavs figure out some ways to. It wasn't pretty. It's not always artful. But to loosen up their half court offense a little bit it was sometimes hunting mismatches for Jonathan Mitchell it was using Mobley more in the pick and roll and they started to get like the Mobley to Allen, big to big passing going on. It was finally I thought probably a little overdue. Starting streuss to. And playing Merrill more and just having more shooting on the floor. Merrill like probably should have liked to think with Sam Merrill who came in and completely changed the game.

[Bill Simmons]

I've been calling for it all serious but I don't. I don't know why they weren't playing him more. Do you think he was. Was he hurt like I.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, he did miss a game.

[Bill Simmons]

Such an obvious person to play more.

[Zach Lowe]

He did miss a game. I thought the stress adjustment was going to come sooner and in Kenny's defense that line. The initial starting lineup with Wade had a. Had like a better plus minus than I had thought of in the playoffs. But it's just the offense was so clunky. I didn't like that Wade was not bringing enough defensively to really justify it. I reorganize their rotation a bit. But this is what happens in the playoffs, man. You shrink your rotation. You got to stretch for answers. This is, you know the Cavs for as ugly as it's looked at times. Seven games and seven games and they're here and they had to negotiate two of the five best defenses in the NBA this year. It's like not always going to look pretty but they found just enough to squeak those series out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So the big adjustment was starting Macho man. Maxi Stru.

[Zach Lowe]

I saw, I saw you. I saw that comp. That was fun.

[Bill Simmons]

Macho. Yeah. Hopefully that'll keep going in the. In the Knicks series but. Sorry I dropped my manager. Other than that it just looked like they took care of the ball and Mitchell played better. Those were. Those were really. That was really. Cause Friday night was. I was really surprised and stunned but Detroit did seem like they got the Reed. The Reed Duran combo going and then today it was gone again. And we'll talk about Detroit later and what Duran's worth and all that stuff but for ugly loss for Detroit, like

[Zach Lowe]

just a reminder that it's a little as predictable as the NBA is compared to other sports leagues in terms of who generally wins and advances game to Game. It's like, wait, Cleveland won three games in a row and just got obliterated in Game 6 in the most dispiriting way possible at home. Detroit's riding high. They're going back home. They're like, game seven and they get obliterated at home. It's like it can swing in wild ways, even if it doesn't seem that way sometimes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's. Turnovers and threes basically seem to be. When you have two teams that I think a notch below the highest level that we have going in the league right now, who the hell knows? For Detroit, how bad was that loss for you? If I gave you a scale of one to the 20, 22 Mav Suns game, how bad that. That's a 10. That's 10.

[Zach Lowe]

I'll go. I'll go six and a half. I mean, I think we saw in the first round that this team was. Its. Its regular season win total probably inflated a little bit how good they really were. And. And all the sort of concerns we had about their viability as, like, a real Finals championship team came to bear in the series against Orlando, which, by the way, I think Orlando probably wins if Franz Vagner doesn't get hurt. And also they blew horrendous Game six of their own at home.

[Bill Simmons]

So I think we win because we did that podcast with the. The scariest ceiling playoff teams when we had Detroit 11th and their fans and media got mad at us.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I mean, and just. I'm going six and a half, maybe seven, because it's a young team. It's a rising team in a lot of ways. Like, again, this is a team that had it over, under, I think, in the high 40s before the season started. And here they are going toe to toe with Donovan Mitchell and James Harden and Evan Mobley and Jared Allen in the second round. It's great season, but Jalen Duran, another invisible game. Tobias Harris over from the field. He's a free agent. You've really got. You've really got a tough question. Tough, tough discussion to have with him. And just the center rotation completely fell apart again at the word. After Jalen Duran looked reinvigorated, we were texting over the weekend, like, the biggest. The. The biggest possible positive sign for Detroit going into game seven is maybe Jalen Duran got over whatever mental hurdle or whatever was happening to him. He had a pretty good. He did not.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's missing layups and everything around the basket.

[Zach Lowe]

And then Isaiah Stewart, for what felt like the fourth time in the series, is Just throwing guys like judo throwing guys at the foul line and picking up these crazy fouls and JB bickers that's like, dude, cool, you're the tough guy on the team. Can you play basketball? Cause if you, if you're not going to play basketball, we're bringing in Paul

[Bill Simmons]

Reed six minutes for Isaiah Stewart tonight. So I would go higher than six and a half for the Pistons for three reasons. One, you have this impossible to figure out Duran contract thing now. I mean, I don't know, he just got outplayed by Jared Allen who plays, who makes, you know, 28, 29 million a year. Right. So you can't pay durn more than that. Even though I voted for him for an all NBA team. I don't know. We've seen this in football and we've seen it in basketball where if you overpay somebody who's not a dominant guy, that's the quickest way to screw your team up for three, four years. It's AKA the Bradley. The Bradley Beal Parallax. Parrot paradox.

[Zach Lowe]

Paradox, Pip dilemma, whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Bradley Beal paradox. I just couldn't in good conscience pay that guy more than 33 to 34 a year.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, I think if you're, I think after this series if, if you're jail endurance agent, you, you might pretend protest what you just said. Like oh, that might, might place a phone call to Bill Simmons being like I got to do the, the thing where I protest. But secretly you're like, I would take that. Like that's like I was so dyson

[Bill Simmons]

Daniel is 25 a year Jalen Johnson signed for. I think we all felt like it was a little low. Right?

[Zach Lowe]

30 a year.

[Bill Simmons]

I think 5 for, 5 for 150. So he's somewhere in there. But I wouldn't feel good about going over 30 for him after that series. I don't feel good about paying that for centers in general because I think the perimeter guys are more important. Unless it's Yacher Wemby.

[Zach Lowe]

I will say I thought his defense was pretty solid throughout the series. Offensively he was exposed. Is kind of not ready for the, for the playoffs at the level that the Pistons need him to be ready, which is a really high level second round against a really good team like you. It's got, it's high level stuff and you know, the perimeter, the perimeter game, like every time he takes a mid range jumper, it's a win for the other team. And I think he'll get better at that. He's only 22, you can't repeat that enough. But like, I don't know what the market. I mean, the Bulls are the team with cap space that has the obvious hole at the position. But I. I just don't know that anyone is blowing Jalen Duran's market away with any kind of offer sheet. Now agents, as we saw with Miles Turner, are super creative of like magicking up, signing trades and crazy deals. But, you know, I.

[Bill Simmons]

It.

[Zach Lowe]

The center.

[Bill Simmons]

Lakers. Lakers.

[Zach Lowe]

Ish. I mean, we'll see if they have any cap space. They have this $50 million possible cap space, and it depends on a lot of different things. LeBron, Rui Hachimura, how quickly they sign Reeves and all that. But he, he would be, I mean, at the very, very high end of what the Lakers could. Could go after.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure. I mean, you know, so that was my first. I have two more things for being bummed out if I'm the Pistons. The second is what happened to Isaiah Stewart, where I think he became a liability as the playoffs went wrong. He was one of my favorite bench guys in the league this season. And I don't know if since the fight, it never felt like he got his impact back the way it was before the fight, where it felt like he was coming in and just swinging in games and adding on to Duran. And I just thought he got worse than the playoffs to the point. Seemed like he came at it. Seemed like he was yelling at a couple coaches and they cut away from it. But I think he's an obvious trade piece for them, making 15 million a year. There's great rent protection things for him. Maybe he needs to play more. But just in general, I thought that was a guy that seemed like he was one of the better contracts in the league and just was mia. So that's two. And then the third one is just that they punted on the trade deadline, which we talked about at the time. Their big move is Kevin Herder, who didn't play tonight, who didn't really play all series.

[Zach Lowe]

And I don't had an injury, in fairness, but yeah, there was no universe in which Kevin Herder was going to suddenly be playing 22 minutes a game off the bench in this series.

[Bill Simmons]

Did he even. He wasn't. He didn't play one minute this series, did he?

[Zach Lowe]

He got in at some point.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, well, whatever. So they kind of punted on that. And we talked about it and we said, hey, they, you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint. They're using the same presti logic of let's try to Build and we're. We'll pounce when we pounce. I don't know if you have a chance to get into the Final Four, that means you're four wins away from the finals. I certainly think they, they've had a lot of success against the Knicks and they really needed that second score, which is what we said in February. You're putting all your bricks in the. You're putting all your eggs in the Tobias Harris basket. And he was over 6 today. And they did not have that other score they could trust. Lavert had the one hot game in the series. You know, they'd have. Jenkins would hit a three every once in a while. Robinson, who did not seem healthy to me, I know he made a couple threes, but I felt like he had some back thing. I was watching how he's walking. He looked 100% to me. But they were just missing that second, whoever it was. And I don't know if I was a Pistons fan, I'd be mad about that.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I was talking about this with some people at the combine and you hear this like, well, I mean, ironically, they got, they get to swap picks with the Timberwolves in the first round of this draft because they took on Mike Conley in the initial salary dump or they were involved in that. And ironic, I say, because you hear a lot of people say, well, I mean, like they could have gotten in for Kobe White or Iodsum New or a guy like that. I mean, they could have. Is that getting them over the hump? Is it worth it? But it's definitely would have given them a better shot in this series because we, like, we all knew they were light on secondary creators and I think honestly, like, I think Cade had to have been exhausted by the end of this series because he just has to do everything. And, and the Cavs, I think probably switched too easily against Cade. Like, they gave him Harden, they gave him Donovan Mitchell, they gave him Merrill, they gave him whatever matchup he wanted. They'd never really trapped him when he got those matchups and a lot of where people were calling for that and I understand that and I think they could have done a little bit. I bet what they were thinking was, look, we're just going to make him dribble eight times and take a 14 footer and yeah, it's going to be over Donovan Mitchell or Sam Merrill, but we're not giving him the easy stuff and the easy passes. We're just going to wear his ass out. And like, what he was doing is he's he. No one in the league is carrying a bigger load, I don't think, than Cade Cunningham and the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Two MVP votes from people today for him.

[Zach Lowe]

First place. First place mvp.

[Bill Simmons]

First place MVP votes. Yeah. So I have a lot of Knicks fans in my life. I know you have even more. And they've been asking me for two weeks, who, who do I want to play? Do you want to play the Cavs or the Pistons? And my answer, at least for the last week, is, you're going to beat either team. It doesn't matter. But I would rather play the Pistons because I. The Cavs still have this ceiling thing that they. The potential of what they are is still more dangerous than what the Pistons are to me, which is a team that just has too much trouble scoring and the Thompson piece of it. Thompson, who, you know, steals and blocks some offensive rebounds. Three incredible defensive plays, a game like, clearly somebody who can be one of your best five guys on the floor and be really impactful, but if you don't have enough scoring, and especially this is a Pistons team, if they fell behind 15, it felt like 50, you know, and I, I just feel like if I'm the Knicks, I would have much rather played that team because I'm better than them anyway. I just outscore them. Cleveland, who knows with the two bigs. You mentioned Mobley earlier. I. The last, the three of the last four games, I thought he was really, really, really good. Like, as. As much as I've enjoyed watching him play, just total package, like defending the rim, some good passing, was aggressive, wasn't afraid to shoot his three. Did you feel like he went up a tiny notch or am I crazy?

[Zach Lowe]

No, I mean, look, the scoring numbers are. I don't think he cracked 20 unless he did tonight. I haven't checked the final box score in any of those games. I just thought he played really solid all around basketball. And I think the series started to turn when the Cavs had him more involved in the pick and roll and like, used him as a passer more and used him as a hub more. And I think, like, that's not going to be sexy statistically, but I thought he made all the right plays and it got him just. It got the ball moving a little bit. For a team that was like 29 assists tonight, they've been dead last in assist rate in the playoffs for most of the playoffs, and it just got the ball moving a little bit more and it invigorated him. Like, there was a moment. I think it Was in game four where he dunked on Isaiah Stewart, like, dunked on him hard. And I'm like, where is this every other game? Like, why is this a rare thing? Like this level of nastiness and aggression. And he played that way the rest of the series. I kind of agree with you. The Pistons swept the Knicks in the regular season. They blew him out, if not all three times in at least two out of the three. There are guys missing on both sides in most of the games, but their physicality bothered the Knicks. They just beat the crap out of the Knicks. The Knicks were not ready for how physical Detroit played. Obviously in the playoffs, your state of readiness and your willingness to engage and that kind of stuff is going to be way higher. The Cavs, like, you love the trick or treat analogy for players. The Cavs have a little bit of that in them where they, for a quarter will find this groove where the Harden Mitchell thing is more complimentary than it is. Like, they. They amplify each other a little bit more than they do. Usually the bigs are rolling. Streuss or Merrill are making shots. You're like, oh, my God, this team is offending the rim. Yeah. And then the next two quarters, it'll just be a little bit, like, sluggish. And so they do have that kind of like, oh, if that team pops a little bit more than. Than off than not, then yeah, they have a chance.

[Bill Simmons]

They've also really. I think Merrill, Sam Merrill has really emerged as a possible, like, MSG playoff villain. I can see him going in and being unafraid and hitting shots. Schroeder, who was plus 12 today, was it at least two turnovers? Schroeder was a turnover machine. The last couple games, last couple of

[Zach Lowe]

games have been so the point that

[Bill Simmons]

he almost seemed like unplayable in game six. Like, I was surprised they kept him out there. But, you know, with Macho Man, Maxi Str Hard and Mobley Allen, Mitchell and Merrill, I at least know I have six guys. And then Wade's like a six and a half. At least he has some size. It's.

[Zach Lowe]

They'll.

[Bill Simmons]

They'll be able to land some punches on the Knicks. But if the Knicks. This is, I mean, this is easily, easily their best chance to make the finals since 1994. I think it's not. They're way better than they were. Way better than either his team. So what do you think the line is for the series? I'm going to Fandor right now. Before I look, I'm going to say Knicks minus 300.

[Zach Lowe]

I was going to say 250 or 230 or something like that. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, the answer is minus 240.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Plus 190 for the Cavs. You win that one, I win. That's why you're Mr. Gambling.

[Zach Lowe]

And I win. I win. Me and House had nine different bets going on this game tonight. That's what I do. And I won by Price is Right rules, which I respect in my house. Yeah, but my wife does not respect prices. Right rules. She says that's stupid. It should just be who's ever closest. I respect the institution that is the Price is Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I like Price is Right's rules as well. Brunson minus 170 for Fin for conference MVP. Mitchell's three to one. Towns plus 950. Harden 20 to one. OG's 22 to one. And then Evan Mobley sitting there 33 to one. All right, got against it.

[Zach Lowe]

Gotta get. Get my app. Get my app up.

[Bill Simmons]

Not again. Not against that one. Cause that, in my opinion, Mobley will be the. That's the Cavs guy to watch in a series like this. Yeah, if he's awesome, that's a, that's a differentiator for them.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm going to dig in a little bit tomorrow. Obviously, it's a quick turnaround. Game 1 is Tuesday in New York. I will hopefully be there and. But I, I'll dig in on the matchups a little bit. But the Knicks OGN and Obi practiced and said he's feeling much better. And this does not like the hamstring injury from two years ago. That's a huge thing. I just think they're better. I think they're a better team. They, they, they I think were 2 and 1 or 3 and 1 against the Cavs this year. Now I will say the last time they played, I've said this over and over again. I think the Cavs figured out a little bit something on who should match up with who and how all that should work defensively and, and gave the Knicks a little bit of trouble. And I think they, they've discovered a little bit of, of that kind of stuff. But the Knicks are just better. And like, to your point, I'm surrounded by Knicks fans. They are absolutely giddy. And I'm like, you should be giddy. This is by far the best chance. I like, I'm. I never thought I would ever have a hometown finals as long as I would be doing this. A finals where I didn't have to travel for half of it. I just never even deemed it possible. I just never. Which of these teams is going to suddenly be competent enough to actually win three playoff rounds? This is by far the most likely it's ever been. To the point that if the Knicks don't win this next series, I think it's going to be absolutely crushing for their fan base and their whole organization.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know how crushing it will be because they had the will to live for the rest of their lives crushed out of them by the Halliburton shot. And that Pacers come back. So they're, they're already dead inside.

[Zach Lowe]

I can't believe you. You have to mention that like they're, they're dead inside.

[Bill Simmons]

They have, they have no emotion left.

[Zach Lowe]

How about the Paul Reed shot, by the way? Can we just. From, from, from game six. That hung on there. It was like a golf shot that just hung on, on the lip for five seconds.

[Bill Simmons]

Tiger woods, where he's doing the fist pump after. We're going to take a break. Couple more storylines for that Cavs Nick series in one second. One second. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals finally is here. We are down to four teams. Think you know it'll go down. Take your shot with fanduel. Get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a better payout. Or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Or just follow me and my picks because every once in a while I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21 select states are 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn for small businesses. Guess what? Every hire matters. Luckily, there's LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Great name. It's designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates. And guess what? Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting jobs to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered screening interviews. And its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. Higher rate the first time. Why not just do it the first time? Get started by posting your first job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's me. That's LinkedIn.com Simmons Terms and conditions apply. So One thing I was thinking about with the Knicks and the Cavs and it's, it's off of Minnesota falling short in their series about these little windows that teams have, the can't get over the hump teams, the teams that they win a few playoff series, they might even make a conference finals. They have like a three or four year window and they just can't make the finals. Right. And I think the most. My favorite example of this team ever was the Mark Price Cavaliers. That with Doherty and Nance and all those dudes, I thought those were really, really good teams. It's really unfair that they never made a finals. They had some bad injury luck. You know, they obviously crossed paths with Michael Jordan at the worst possible times and the Pistons and then Price got hurt and. But I just thought that was a really good team. And you look back and you're like, oh, that was an error. But they never got over the hump. And I think the Knicks and the Cavs are like that right now. Where the Cavs, they've had this Mitchell little mini era here where they, they were able to get lucky with the Mobley being there and being able to draft him. And then the Jared Allen trade, you're basically getting him for nothing. And then, you know, Garland initially turned him in Harden, but this is their window right now, I feel like. And then the next same thing where they, they went all in with the Bridges. They were able to dump Randall at the perfect time. We're going to talk about him later. They get towns. That trade turned out really well. And this is the window right now for them. And this, this is why when I think about this series, like for one of these teams, whoever loses this, I don't think it'll be a. Well, we made the conference finals. I think this is like this was our fucking chance to make the finals. So there's real stakes here that, not that there isn't always stakes for the conference finals, but I feel like this is like a four year road to this series.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean, look, if you're right and one of these teams comes out feeling disappointed to the point where they view change as necessary. Like, certainly the Bucks are opening for just maximum disappointment around the top, whatever teams in the league, including these two teams. And it is like I talked about this last week, like, imagine if Cleveland comes back and wins the series and they did, like, what does that mean for Harden's future with the team? It seems to solidify, right? Does it solidify Mitchell's? But like, you're right. If they just get rolled if one of these, it's different. If you go to seven and it's just like both teams played did really, really well.

[Bill Simmons]

Heroics, awesome.

[Zach Lowe]

Just in there, like, you know, it's a tip your cap kind of series. But if it's 4:1 and we get exposed on the glass like Mitchell Robinson four years ago exposed us on the glass or 4:1 and Cat has another existential crisis week, like the Cat thing goes back this way where he's fouling and like all of a sudden you just can't recapture whatever it is you had against Philadelphia. And at the end of the Atlanta series, like, you're right, there could be, there could be certainly disappointment to the point of like, all right, we got to pivot. I, I, I mean, we'll see how it goes.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess the, the problem with some of this stuff, I remember you talking about this when Dame was leaving Portland about like, they made the 2019 Western finals. That's a win. They were one of the four, you know, teams left. But the whole Dame era in Portland, I don't look at it as like, oh man, they were rolling. You know, we, we go back and we, we look at that Western finals, it's like I was a little fluky. The Houston and Golden State was really the Western Finals that year, but that was an error. And I was thinking about the get over the hump teams. The grit and grind Grizzlies is a great one.

[Zach Lowe]

Made the finals. I mean, made the, the conference.

[Bill Simmons]

Made the conference finals. Right. They put some series together, they had some upsets. Was a distinct era. They could never get over the hump. Lab City Clippers, Paul George Pacers, your favorite, the Coach Bud Hawks Blazers. The hardened Rockets is probably the most successful example of just a ton of success, but never actually made the finals. The Celtics, pre Covid Celtics, basically 16 to 20 where they made the Eastern finals. I think four to five times.

[Zach Lowe]

That whole era in the Eastern Conference final should just be, it was just Cleveland and a bunch of whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So and Knicks and Cavs now and then, and then the Wolves and we'll, we'll talk about the Wolves later because I want to do. What do you do? But sometimes, like being one of the final four teams is okay. I think we just overreact to where it's like we didn't win the title. What do we do? And it's like, I don't know, man. There's 30 teams in this league. There's a lot of good players. It's like If I'm the Cavs, I'm like, all right, this was pretty good. We were down 20 in the second round. We made it. Like, maybe. Let's cool the jets on all the panic stuff now. If they had lost tonight, I would have had five trades for you.

[Zach Lowe]

I totally agree. Making the conference finals is really hard, and there's only four teams left, and you're one of them, and you've learned something about yourself. You're going to be better off for it the next year. When you're in the playoffs. And you were doing the hump thing, I was like, where's the hump? Because a lot of these teams you were mentioning made the conference finals, but not the finals. And I. I guess that hump is the finals.

[Bill Simmons]

That's.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, that's like. And again, like, what, Are you going to tear down a conference finals team? Because now you have decisions to make and the salary cap forces you to make decisions and all that kind of stuff, but it's. It's hard to get that far in the playoffs. And, you know, I mean, the west is just a completely different animal. Like, Minnesota loses to San Antonio in the second round of the playoffs. I'm supposed to panic about. Now, there are things to panic about. Like Julius Randall disappearing is a thing to panic about. Rudy Gobert kind of sneakily disappeared in the last two or three games. Well, I mean, he's.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a catastrophe.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. I was trying to be nice for. For Rudy, because everyone just. It's just. He's just the punching bag at the end.

[Bill Simmons]

I know he's a punching bag, but that's nice.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm trying to be nice. He's being bullied. He's been bullied too long. I'm trying to be nice to him.

[Bill Simmons]

Putting that aside, if I'm Minnesota, I'm really scared that one of the people I have to go through in my conference, Victor Rambanyama, just completely annihilated my center.

[Zach Lowe]

To the point.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know what to do with that.

[Zach Lowe]

To the point. And Stan was making it on the broadcast that they were. They. And I had talked about it last week, too, on my pod. They were rejiggering their rotations. The Wolves war to have Rudy in the game only when Wemby was not in the game.

[Bill Simmons]

Not good or.

[Zach Lowe]

Or limited. Yeah. So, look. But it's hard to make the conference finals. The Cavs are pretty young and.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know. There was something else I was going to say and I forgot, but it's it's, it's hard to make the conference finals with Detroit.

[Bill Simmons]

So we talk about. They're obviously not panicked.

[Zach Lowe]

They're young.

[Bill Simmons]

Duran's 22, Cade's in his mid-20s. There's a trade for a second score. Let's try to get Kate some help. No question, there's probably a Kawhi Leonard conversation. There's probably a we don't have enough to get Jalen Brown conversation, but let's at least kick the tires. There's a hey, do we make our version of the Desmond Bain, Mikhail Bridges trade for Trey Murphy and see if New Orleans is interested in that? But I think it's somebody like that. I think it's. I think they have to find a reliable second score that is not Tobias Harris. I thought Tobias had a good season and I actually really like the way he played the regular season. But the, the playoffs speak for itself, unfortunately.

[Zach Lowe]

The question that you, you're going to have to face is what's the salary that you're throwing in? I mean, you can throw in all your picks, I guess, and that's pretty valuable. Throw in all your picks, all your swaps. They got everything. But I got to get up to a number, right? Like if I'm the names you're mentioning, I got, I got to get up to even a big number.

[Bill Simmons]

They have Robinson, who's 16 a year, the next two, but he's only 2 million guaranteed this year. So they can get out of that. They can. I think they could trade Stewart pretty easily and I think that's somebody that just want.

[Zach Lowe]

But just throw. Jalen. You just threw Jalen Brown's name in there. The Boston Celtics are not trading Finals MVP Jalen Brown for Isaiah Stewart, Duncan Robinson and a bunch of Detroit first round picks. Like, that's. You're not getting a guy like that.

[Bill Simmons]

They're not. And the problem is they're not getting Kawhi or Trey Murphy for what they have to trade anyway.

[Zach Lowe]

I think. I don't, I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

Unless Thompson is involved.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, in some sort of capacity, they're not doing that.

[Bill Simmons]

And, but that's the other thing they have to figure out. Do they, do they extend Thompson? Do they give him, you know, do they jump the gun on the RFA season and, and take it out, basically?

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, look, we could get a lot of pretty un. I mean, we had the four guys who just hung in restricted free agency forever last year because they just, there was nothing out there for them. We've seen the Rockets already play pretty tough with some of their internal free agents and just say, we're not giving you the max. How about this? And if you don't take it, we'll just be happily negotiate against you in restricted free agency. Yeah, and I think more teams should do that. I mean, I hate restricted free agency. It sucks for the players. But it's a rule and I don't think teams have adequately taken advantage of it. And I think it's really like if you can chip 8 to 10 million a year off some of these contracts. Again, it sucks for the players, but it's, it's a weapon that you're, you have collectively bargained to have. And I like it also really hurts

[Bill Simmons]

the flexibility of being able to fix your roster. Once you do that extension, you're, you're poison pill.

[Zach Lowe]

Look, we're just, these are just the rules. I have to live in the unit. I can think about other rules. But these are the rules that exist now. And under those rules, like, I'm not extending a star Thompson now unless he's willing to take a pretty big discount. And because if I'm, and if I'm a Sar Thompson's agent, I'd say like, oh no, I want the max. It's 25%. And like, then we're not negotiating. Then we'll go to, we'll, we'll take it to restricted free agency.

[Bill Simmons]

If my, if a Sar Thompson's agent asked that or said that I would cut a 45 minute video of him missing eight footers and be like, we're not giving you the max. And here's our 45 minute answer on that.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I think that would be.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you make an eight footer?

[Zach Lowe]

I. I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you make it eight footer?

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know if that would go over well. I think that would be perceived as rude.

[Bill Simmons]

What, what were the backyard basketball one on one games between the Thompson Twins, like ferocious.

[Zach Lowe]

I wouldn't want to be a part of those games.

[Bill Simmons]

It's incredible. Defa. Is that why they both can't shoot? Because the other one was so great defensively, they never figured out how to make an open shot.

[Zach Lowe]

Just four hour games and people like, we got to eat dinner. I know it's 22 to 11, but when dinner is ready, it's getting cold. Can we just call it a three?

[Bill Simmons]

It's like two, two cheetahs just fighting, unable to gain upper ground on each other. I'm going to just quickly give you my. I had some Cleveland content in case they lost about what would Happen. I was really excited about some of this. I wrote down in all caps, LeBron is looming. I think we can close the door now for the. LeBron comes back to Cleveland. Hey, guys, I'm a former champ. I'm here to help. What if they lose?

[Zach Lowe]

What if they get swept? I mean, I don't think they would. What if it's 4:1 and it's just. It ends like with whimper. Really just closing. You're just closing it.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the golf like in Cleveland? Because I think that's going to be the number one determiner for him.

[Zach Lowe]

Probably not great for a low percentage of the year.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he has stay in California. Yeah, I had some Mitchell trades, though.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's say how about this? If Mitchell gets swept, if they. If the Cavs get swept. But I'm just trying to figure out what his value is. Fourth pick Chicago is. Chicago's not doing that right.

[Zach Lowe]

I would, I would think not. New gm, new. New. New lease on life. Let's get it. Let's get a cornerstone.

[Bill Simmons]

New guy as young guy. But Brooklyn 6 pick, which I think is for sale.

[Zach Lowe]

They were the. They were the first team that came to my mind when you just started.

[Bill Simmons]

6 pick Traore and a future first. Call it in Sacramento. 7th pick with Levine and I get another Sacramento pick. And then. And then Atlanta. 8th pick with Dyson Daniels. So something there.

[Zach Lowe]

He'd be very good on Atlanta. I mean, he'd be very good anywhere. But there would have been a really interesting discussion to be had of Donovan Mitchell, almost 30, eligible to sign just a. One of these extensions. That's just going to be a. Just gigantic amount of money if it's a max extension going into his mid-30s with a playoff record that I think, by the way, has been a little bit underrated as he's come under some scrutiny in this series. I think he's been pretty goddamn good in the playoffs. And there's been a couple of series the last two years for the Cavs where he felt like the only one. He was like the bus driver and just, just, just the only one that was really up for a fight.

[Bill Simmons]

Orlando, Game seven was a good one too, and he was great tonight.

[Zach Lowe]

And, and. But there still would have been interesting discussion like, you know, small guard, 30 plus 30 into 33, 34, 35 on pay him 70 million. And he's never made the conference finals. And that discussion is at least forestalled for now.

[Bill Simmons]

The bigger issue for me with that kind of money is do you make anyone Better, which he was not doing during the playoffs, but he did tonight. I did get an email earlier today from Alex Taylor. This was before we knew the result. Who said being a Cavs fan is a lot like having an elderly relative you're taking care of. I always have to watch and I'm rooting for them, but I kind of can't wait for this shit to be over with. That's a dark email.

[Zach Lowe]

That is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think that's where the Cavs, that's where the Cavs fans are mentally.

[Zach Lowe]

I guess I needed a trigger warning for that. That was awful. Alex Taylor.

[Bill Simmons]

Geez. Alex Taylor. And then this one I got before game seven from Brit Pierce about watching James Harden push off on every drive and flop all over the floor. The best playoff moment this year has to be Dean Wade slipping on Harden's sweat spot and Tobias getting the run out dunk. The referee should be embarrassed for letting the ship for two decades. That would have been. If the Cavs had lost. That would have been the signature play. But they won and now nobody will remember.

[Zach Lowe]

There also would have been like, I'm sure there was an understanding between James Harden and the Cleveland Cavaliers about what would come next when he has this player option for next year. And the Clippers. There was clearly an understanding about would, would and would not come next with the Clippers. And when there's an understanding of that nature, James Harden tends to change teams and find one where he finds a better understanding. But if they had just flamed out in this series and by the way, he was 2 of 10 today. It's not like he covered himself in glory in this game. He just didn't turn the ball over a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

I liked it. I thought he was good. There's 2 for 10 was deceiving.

[Zach Lowe]

I, I, I do think like, and again, I'm sure they've already kind of talked about it, but I, like, can you just, I would have been like, can you just opt into your player option and we can just wash our hands of this. Cause he's getting old. He's getting old in front of my eyes.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think that's what happens. It's, I think the player option's 43. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

No, he's, it's, what's going to happen is he's going to opt out. He's going to opt out and get a longer deal. But I'm saying if he, if they flame out in the series and he goes down like he's gone down at other game Sevens before, if I'm the Cavs. I'm like, I don't know, man. How many more years of this? Like, I know we traded garbage, but

[Bill Simmons]

don't you want to do. What if it was, like, 27 and 27? Is he going to take that?

[Zach Lowe]

I guess I. I guess he would,

[Bill Simmons]

but he was in the. What draft Was he in 2009?

[Zach Lowe]

He's old. He's getting old.

[Bill Simmons]

Anyone? It's just him and Curry from that draft now, right? Is that anybody else from that draft?

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know. You're better at the draft stuff than I am.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that was.

[Zach Lowe]

But. And you do get to. You do get to have him as a trade ship in case you have one of those meetings that doesn't go well and then he gets traded to another place.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the question is, is this the third straight team he felt like he was wink, wink, promise something that then did not materialize?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I did. I didn't sense. I didn't sense a lot of empathy for Daryl Morey from the James Harden camp when the news of Daryl More's firing was rippling through the combine in Chicago last week.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to invite Darryl on my podcast and just pour truth serum into him, get him to tell all kinds

[Zach Lowe]

of stuff with the painting of Hardin be in the background. Do you think he still has the painting? Remember the. Ramona Schoberg wrote that piece, and it was like, sit in the living room stands this painting of commission from this artist for this amount of money. And it's James Harden doing this. And then it's a quote from Daryl being like, yes, he is my muse. We will be forever connected. We hugged on the tarmac all those years ago.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, when he has his podcast on the ringer, maybe James will be one of the first guests on the Daryl Morris show.

[Zach Lowe]

The Daryl and Doc show.

[Bill Simmons]

The Daryl and Doc show would be amazing. I don't know. I don't think that one will happen. I don't know if there's a lot of.

[Zach Lowe]

The mismatch, part two. The mismatch 2.0.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that'd be more than a mismatch. I don't see those two getting together for a pod. All right, Nick's Knicks Cavs, let's do it. Are you. Well, you'll do Tuesday morning, so you'll be able to do a pick on that series. So I won't step on your podcast. Listen to Zach's pod.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm pick the Knicks. I'm. There's no amount of film study or whatever that I'm doing tomorrow that is going to make me pick the Cavs. I'm picking the Knicks. It's just a matter of.

[Bill Simmons]

I would lean right now toward Nixon. 5. Just because I think Mitchell will have one game when he goes nuts. That's usually, usually what happens with him. They'll have one game where everything goes right would be my guess. But I don't. I just think the Knicks. It's weird.

[Zach Lowe]

I.

[Bill Simmons]

It's. We have three classes of teams this year, not two as we get in the final Four. Cause we have this OKC San Antonio all the way up here. I think we have the Knicks here. But Puncher's chance of being able to hang in a series against either of those teams, no question. And then probably the Cavs here. I think those are the three levels.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I think that's fair. I think the. I think the Knicks could win the championship. I wouldn't bet on it. I wouldn't pick. I'm not going to pick them over either of the Western Conference teams. But I. If you told me it's a 25% chance they could win one of those series, that sounds reasonable to me.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the Knicks winning the championship. Oh, this is going to get cut out in a social media video. I'm fine with it. I think the Knicks winning the championship is the biggest thing left in any sport other than the Bills, Vikings or Detroit Lions winning a Super Bowl. And I probably left out another team where their fans are going to get mad at me. But when you think about the Knicks not winning since 73, but the generations of fans and the drought of 20 years and there's just so many parallels to me with the Red Sox pre 04. Just the emotion that will come out of that. We cannot. I don't think there's another basketball team that would have it. And there's some that it's unrealistic because like the Sacramento Kings, as long as they have the current owners, will never win the title. So we can't even be like, oh, in Sacramento. It's like we'll never know because they're not going to win Phoenix a little bit just because of all their tough losses. But other. I just think the Knicks have the most fans. New York's the biggest city. We have generations of fans going back to the 50s and grandfathers and great grandfathers. And I just think it's the biggest thing we have.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, look, I mean outside the arena is already a complete shit show after every game. And I mean that mostly affectionately, but also like leave JR Smith alone and leave poor Brian Winhorst alone this year if he comes to town. So it's already insane there. And yeah, I mean they're the Knicks. I mean this is. They are an absolutely iconic team. They are New York's team. And New York is a big gigantic city. I would throw out like the Timberwolves Vikings twofer in Minnesota would be pretty huge.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, how about this? Minnesota hasn't won a title of any kind since 91. And I don't even think the Twins. I don't even think they've been in the finals in any sport since 91. I'm pretty sure that's true.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean my north side history is a little muddled.

[Bill Simmons]

But the thing is like I know there's been a bunch of teams that have had droughts or have never won at all. Like the Maple Leafs fans are listening to me right now. Like, what about us? So just the Knicks are the biggest city in America. Like they have the most fans. That's the point is like they've had 53 years of just getting their teeth kicked in and they have just a shitload of fans. So that's, that's why I would make that argument.

[Zach Lowe]

Can I give you one more that

[Bill Simmons]

I bets are at 40, by the way.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm aware. And we beat the Yankees today and come from behind. Bottom, bottom of the 10th win to take the Subway series yet again. Can I just throw one other team at you?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I, I am curious to know what modern Atlanta would feel like if they got a team that they really felt like this could be a championship team like the, the Bud Hawks. I think everybody knew they're going to run into the Cleveland Buzzsaw at some point. And this was like a very fun team at a very fun story for like they. The basketball seat, right? Like oh, they pass the ball and they do all this cool stuff with Korver. Like what if they got a. Like a cool ass dude like, like Jalen. I mean Trey Young was.

[Bill Simmons]

But then like, like Anthony Edwards.

[Zach Lowe]

Whatever. Don't, don't do that.

[Bill Simmons]

Like University of Georgia Georgia native Anthony Edwards.

[Zach Lowe]

But it had and had a team where you like actually believe that it's. That seems like they would go crazy there.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be a pretty good one. Hey listen, lots of teams have a.1 Indiana get back there after the Halliburton coming so close and Halliburton going down. Like that would be another one. But I just think the Knicks have the. They've so many fans. It's on. But I. You and I. I mean, it's a little less fair for you. Cause you're in the vicinity, I'm in the Heartlands. We just. I just know so many Knicks, and it's like all they want. This is it. All right, I'm going Nixon 5.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Is my pick. I don't know what the odds are. Let's talk spurs. Okc.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

You were asking me what I thought the most anticipated series has been since you and I have known each other, which was 2011. I tried to hire you. It didn't work out. And then you finally came to Grantland the next year and you sent me all these series that you thought were in the running for most anticipated playoff

[Zach Lowe]

series, trying to get my headspace back into what it felt like before those series started.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Kirk and I talked about this for a scratch on Tuesday, and I said that I felt like this was the biggest series in eight years, but I didn't really put a ton of thought into it. And then when you and I were talking about it, I think the weirder thing to me is that we haven't had like a mammoth series like this in eight years. And I don't really know all the reasons for that, because I do think we have a lot of talent in the 2000s. I don't know if it's bad luck or I don't really have an answer, but I know that this is. This feels like the single biggest series we've had, at least since the first Cavs, warriors one. But what would you go like? What was the top five that you landed on?

[Zach Lowe]

So, first of all, my theories as to what you just. Devoid. That you just talked about. I have a few theories. Will you.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's hear it. No, let's go. Let's dive into it. I'm curious.

[Zach Lowe]

I think the pandemic fucked up, like two and a half seasons. They just didn't. Not that they don't. Don't do. Don't. Lakers fans. I'm not saying that. It just didn't. They didn't. The games didn't feel the same, obviously. Well, no, don't be.

[Bill Simmons]

The games are in a fucking bubble with cardboard cutouts of fans. And that was insane.

[Zach Lowe]

And then the next season, there was attendance restrictions all over the league. It just didn't. And then I think the parody, like, we've had seven champions in seven years. We just haven't had these, like, two colossuses who are rising next to each other and meeting in the playoffs over and over again. 60 plus win just like juggernauts. And now we're going to have that. I'll give you my top five.

[Bill Simmons]

I made my top five before you give me the top five. Yeah, I have a point off your point because I'm glad you brought up the COVID I think that would have been the best and biggest and most anticipated series. But we didn't get it because Covid would have been Lakers Clippers first Kawhi year, second LeBron year. They were the two best teams in the league and we were headed that way. And I remember the weekend before all the COVID shit happened and I think they might have even played that weekend. And it just was clearly. I remember doing a podcast that Sunday and it was like, this is it, man. We are headed. We've never had the LA versus LA collision course. This is fucking happening. Kawhi was the reigning Finals MVP. LeBron had his fastball back like Davis was there. We were heading for it and it didn't happen.

[Zach Lowe]

Streetlights over spotlights. They had the Clippers had the whole ad campaign that was like, we're the anti Lakers of la.

[Bill Simmons]

It was great. And it just immediately was over. For. For two plus years we never had the awesome Nuggets kind of oh my God, Nuggets series either. And probably the closest was that that first battle with the Timberwolves when the Timberwolves ended up beating him in game seven. But there wasn't anticipation for that like with the Spurs.

[Zach Lowe]

Anyway, the Nuggets are in a a bunch, like a bunch of my honorable mention top 20 anticipated series. Like I think Thunder Nuggets last year was like, that was a pretty hot series. But again there wasn't like it was earlier.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you need like it needs to feel like this is the Finals right now. There's big legacy altering stuff. I have two of hopefully the two best guys in the league, but at least two of the best three or four. Like you gotta check a lot of boxes with this, which is what this series does. So what do you got?

[Zach Lowe]

My top five. I did this from LeBron signing in Miami until now. Top five most anticipated series. I sent you a list. I have like 20 finalists. My top five were. I'll go in reverse order. Number five, Oklahoma City, San Antonio Western Conference Finals 2012. It was like the old guys versus the young guys. The spurs had acquired D out at the end of that, like a middle of that season and they were on like a 20 game winning streak going into that series.

[Bill Simmons]

Or they killed the Clippers.

[Zach Lowe]

Killed them They, I think they had won 20 straight games after going up 20 in that series. And then the Thunder were like, oh, we're just younger and more athletic and we're actually ready. And they just wiped the spurs out four in a row. So that was number five by the

[Bill Simmons]

way on that 2012, which was a great basketball season. And it was right after the lockout. So it was all condensed, sped up and there was just a lot of basketball happening. And the thing that sucked is we lost Eric Rose at the beginning of that playoffs. But we had Chicago, Miami, Boston on one side and then we had this Lob City team that came out of nowhere cause Chris Paul ended up on the Clippers. You had this proud spurs team trying to get their throne back. You had okc, you know, ascending and then you, you had was there was one more right? Okc Quippers. No, that's it. Those three. So we had six.

[Zach Lowe]

Grit and grind. Memphis was like floating around there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Kind of lurking. But. But yeah, that was a. I thought both of those Thunder series because Heat Thunder in the next round was also really great. But I like the non finals for this. Okay, I'm with you on that one.

[Zach Lowe]

Number four, most anticipated series, Warriors Thunder Western Conference Finals 2016 ends up being the Klay Thompson game six series.

[Bill Simmons]

Just so I had that higher. I had that second on my list. Okay. Because it was 73 and 9. It felt like it was Durant's last. Maybe he was getting out of there. Maybe he was going to Washington, maybe he was going to Boston. The Golden State buzz had started, but most people didn't know whether to believe it or not. But it just felt like there was something momentous happening ahead of us.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm not done with that team that year yet. On my list, number three out of a bunch of candidates from this two year era. The 2014 finals. Heat, spurs two. I think just the happiest I've ever been covering basketball was being at the back to back Heat spurs finals. Just so many awesome players, awesome storylines. The vengeance storyline in the second one that the one, the 2014 one after the Ray Allen shot the year before. It broke the spurs hearts.

[Bill Simmons]

And Heat favored for that series too. Which people forget.

[Zach Lowe]

I think that's the air conditioning game is in that series where the air conditioning goes out. I honorable mention. I just think the spurs, the Spurs Thunder conference finals from that year is also awesome. That's my number. That's my number three by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Clippers, Clippers, Thunder. That year was awesome too. Right? Wasn't that 14 honorable mention.

[Zach Lowe]

Not so awesome for the Clippers, but honorable mention. The Clippers had quite a dramatic playoff run that year with Donald Sterling happening right before number two, the 2016 NBA Finals 73 win. Warriors, LeBron and the Cavs just the rematch after the first one had Kyrie injured, Kevin Love injured. And it ended up being not quite a fair fight as the warriors won their first title. And number one, just slightly over that 2018 Western Conference finals Warriors versus the Rockets team with Chris Paul and James Harden. And they switched everything and were built to beat the warriors and actually had them on the ropes. The Durant warriors, the invincible warriors that had gone 161 in the playoffs the year before. I think that was my number one.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a great list. So I had five of the six bolded. The one you didn't mention that I think has lost the history and was fucking awesome was Warriors Rockets 2019. When Durant was hurt and it felt like it was we were headed toward the end of this warriors run that was awesome. Probably weren't getting Durant back. It was Houston's best chance to take him down. And then Curry had that incredible second half. I think it was game six. What do you have like 30 in the second half?

[Zach Lowe]

I think he might have had zero in the first half. And it's also not just one of my favorite Curry games, it's one of my favorite Curry and Draymond together games because they just run the same two man game on the right side of the floor over and over again down the stretch. But they do six different things out of it in six different possessions. And the Rockets just don't even know what the hell hit them. And it's one open shot after another.

[Bill Simmons]

Eighteen Western Finals is a great one because it kind of did feel like the finals that LeBron had nobody left on the Cavs that season. That weird Celtic team that didn't even have Kyrie and Hayward almost made the Finals came within a couple mysteries and a couple.

[Zach Lowe]

We had the like a thousand mysteries,

[Bill Simmons]

but we also had the Chris Paul, could this be it? And then he gets hurt in Game 4. That was an awesome series for this decade. You wrote down Clippers, Mavs 21, Bucks Nets 21, Nuggets, Sons 23, Sixer, Celtics 23, Wolves Nuggets 24, Nuggets, Clips 25 and Thunder Nuggets 25. The only one I think could be in the discussion is Bucks Nets. But I, I can't remember when the injury started, but it was giannis coming off two straight MVPs. It was your greatest theoretical team of all time, the Nets. It kind of felt like whoever won that series was making the finals. And as it turned out, it was the correct assumption. Cause the other series was Hawks Sixers, which was the. The end of Ben Simmons's career as we knew it. But, but Bucks Nets was. I think we were excited for that. And then the injuries just started coming.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, we were. I was trying to remember, trying to put myself back into the space of like, I must have been pretty pumped for that series.

[Bill Simmons]

Covid was back at that point. It was just that 21 was weird. I don't really remember a ton.

[Zach Lowe]

And by the way, I now remember as I'm going through the whole list of my honorable mentions, the very first one on my honorable mentions list chronologically is the 2011 NBA Finals heat Mavs. And we were talking before about how making the conference finals and losing should not be treated as some catastrophic failure where I have to upend my entire team and pivot in a different direction. And what I forgot to say and now remember to say is that Mavericks team is the quintessential example of that. Yeah, they tweaked here and there, but they failed in the playoffs over and over and over again with Dirk, often in high profile ways. And they just took the attitude of it's not that bad to be a 50 to 58 win team every year and just be good and good and good and maybe hit great in the right year where we get the right matchups, the right chemistry, whatever, and maybe we'll win a title. And they won the title. And it's one of the most beloved title teams of the last quarter century of the NBA. They are the poster team for. You don't always have to like blow it up or trade three people when you're running into a wall in the conference finals or wherever. Over and over again.

[Bill Simmons]

So what are the 22 warriors the poster boy of there is because they won the title anyway, even though they should have made trades and they didn't because they were doing the two timelines bullshit.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I think they're the poster thing of like if you have a top 12 player of all time, wherever you think Steph is, like you should and he's in his prime, just like, just keep trying to win. And they did.

[Bill Simmons]

Basketball was really good from 12 to 14. We just had a lot of good teams and a lot of good players. I think the 2010 Celtic Lakers rematch dwarfs all of these. I think for a variety of reasons it also feels like, it feels like the end of basketball and the start of this new era of basketball. Ironically, in this new decade when the three started to come in and the new Durant moved up and Curry and all these. LeBron went to Miami. It just feels like basketball shifts as a sport. And that Celtic Lakers series, incredible anticipation. But also feels like the end of a specific generation. At the same time.

[Zach Lowe]

I remember thinking at the time, and I was not at. This is 17 years ago, whatever. 16 years ago. Not as well versed in the early, early history of the NBA as you were then. I am now. So you can talk about the 69 finals, whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Great.

[Zach Lowe]

I remember thinking at that time, could you make the argument that this Game 7 is the biggest game in the history of the NBA? Celtics, Lakers, Lakers, trying to like close the title gap. Kobe, the big three Celtics going for one last ring when it felt like they should have had another one and never did. And just. I, I, I don't think that was a crazy. I mean I, we, I'm sure we could go back and find other candidates for such a lofty designation, but it had to be up there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's a, there's a couple finals that I think levitate above the rest of them. 2016 is definitely like that. I mean that's, you could argue that that might be the biggest one.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I'm just saying at the time in 2010, I was thinking, is this one game. Obviously, yeah, 2016. That, that was.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but I'm saying going into certain series and being like, wow, there. The stakes just feel higher right now. That's why, like, if we get a game 7 in this Spurs Thunder series.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh my God.

[Bill Simmons]

I think we're going to feel that way. Right. Cause fun this. I know Wemby's 22, but I don't care, man. He's 7 foot 7. You gotta take it year by year when somebody's got that kind of size. And I just, I'm always nervous about injuries with him. And then okc, you know, you just never know. It's really hard to just put title seasons together. It's hard to keep everybody happy. They've done a great job of it. Presti famously. And some of this stuff's starting to come out a little about how he approaches player evaluation and stuff, but really thinks about personality chemistry, wanting to build these guys that are all gonna pull for each other. That's why he sees somebody like Jared McCain. He just grabs em. There's like a certain type of person that he Values and they probably have the best chance of anyone of having a long, long run with a tail without any disease and more stuff happening. But.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, you talk about stakes like Shay just won his second MVP in a row today. It was announced.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Zach Lowe]

If he, they go back, if they

[Bill Simmons]

break the seam somehow. Scooped everybody, but was it a scoop? Did we. Did anyone think Shea was not winning the mvp? Is there one person?

[Zach Lowe]

I'm sure no, but I mean, I, I don't think it was a surprise, but I'm sure the league and its broadcast partners preferred that to be. Or the other broadcast partners preferred that to be outed a different way.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that wasn't great.

[Zach Lowe]

But. But if they break the no repeat streak in the NBA now and he wins another finals mvp, and they're still pretty young, I mean, like the historical stakes for him and for the stunner team are, are now very big and they, they will begin to put. If they win another title and they break the no repeat run, they will begin to put themselves into position with another title. Whether it's next, like if they win three out of four or four out of seven or something, they will get into some pretty big historical discussions. And like that starts now. That starts with like this, this title. And this is the first time they mean they've. It feels like they've barely participated in the playoffs. It's been so easy for them. And now we're here.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Back to back Finals MVP Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron and Durant. That's the entire list. And then back to back regular season MVPs, Russell, Will, Kareem, Moses, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Nash, LeBron, Curry, Giannis and Jokic. Diana's second MVP. Got to reinvestigate that one at some point.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, look, no one reinvestigates an MVP race like you. I mean, you got a whole team under you.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I voted for Giannis. But now it's like when they always talk about did LeBron win enough MVPs, that might have been the shaky one that he should have taken. He finished second.

[Zach Lowe]

I'd have to look back.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

I remember voting for Giannis both times.

[Bill Simmons]

So anyway, the people who have done the back to back regular season and Finals mvp. It's not a long list. Also speaking of mvp, Jokic got second place. He officially top two MVP six straight years. Him, Bird and Russell. That's the whole list. Wow.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought it would be a little closer in the voting than it was.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, 83, first placers. For Shay, 10 for Joker and five for Wemby. So you thought Joker would get more votes? Who'd you think was gonna get more votes?

[Zach Lowe]

I thought Jokic would would snag like 10 more first place votes or would just be a little bit less of a route than it was this episode

[Bill Simmons]

is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. With playoffs around the corner, now's a good time to create a tournament of your own. Compete to see who can predict the best playoff series or put your own basketball skills to the test. And the prize? A crisp Michelob Ultra Plus. They're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobulture.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026 multiple entry periods. See official [e-mail] courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Countless hours in the gym, 1000 shots before tip off. Day after day in the same court with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right, the best players put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote or reach out to a local agent, State Farm is there to get to know you and help you select the right coverage that fits your life and your budget. Putting in the work is what separates the good players from the great, and that's why you want State Farm on your team. So get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. For small business, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner, designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process, from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered screening interviews. Its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. No recruiter jargon needed. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent. Hire Right the First time. Get started by posting your first job for [e-mail] Simmons. That's LinkedIn.com Simmons. Terms and conditions apply. I have a segment I didn't tell you about called Spurs OKC Legacy Check.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, well, let's check some legacies out.

[Bill Simmons]

Just mentioned Shea.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

He's really going for something unique here with the back to back and Finals MVP and run mvp. Chet has. There's seeds of the wimpy feud going, really, since like 2023. It's like, is something's here that doesn't seem like these. There's a lot of love between these two guys, and now they have a chance to really go at it. He's. I think he's solidified himself as the second best Thunder guy. He's probably the second best defender in the league, second best center. He's their best chance to maybe nullify Wemby a little bit. I don't know if Wemby can be nullified. It might be impossible. Well, he's definitely not fun shed stuff here.

[Zach Lowe]

He's definitely not the second best center in the NBA.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm sorry. Joke. Yes. Third best center. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, this goes back to before, you know, they were even in the NBA, the international basketball scene. There's a lot of. There's a lot of Wemby Chet history. And I'm just gonna say, like, just let's see how Jalen Williams looks before. I mean, it doesn't really matter. They're both awesome. But before we definitively say that Chet has now surpassed him as the second best player on the Thunder. I mean, this was a dude who was like, oh, my God, is he gonna. Is he gonna steal finals MVP at the last minute here? Yeah, he's gonna play. He's ready.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I forgot what he looked like.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, get ready. He's gonna look. You're gonna see him again.

[Bill Simmons]

He was on my legacy list. I wrote Jalen Williams hyphen. Were you here? Yes, he was there.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you not remember the finals last year? He was unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

He was awesome. I had him. I had him like 12th in my ringer. 100. Just like to see him play. Can he play? Can he play some basketball? Legacy. Sam Presti.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think a title. Getting by this series and then the next series, I think officially he becomes one of the great GMs of all time. I think it's just official. You're talking Auerbach and West and Riley and Jerry Krause. Pick anyone. But to put that whole Durant run together, not have it quite get there and then do what he did with this decade.

[Zach Lowe]

And it's.

[Bill Simmons]

He's certainly been the best GM in the league for how many years now? The one that people point to. Yeah. I mean 15.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know if it's quite that long. It's a very long time and there's indisputably he's in the going to go in the pantheon of the best ever to do it. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

A.J. mitchell, best contract in the week. Bordering on one of the best this century with the way he's playing, making $3 million a year. Ridiculous. Trade bait or keep bait for them. And in my opinion, hold on to your horses. Zach Lowe.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The single most important Thunder player in the series.

[Zach Lowe]

Thunderer.

[Bill Simmons]

Single most important Thunderer. For this reason the spurs are going to go small and do that three guard thing and try to do speed and unleash their pit bulls and. And they need Mitchell to be really good. They need him to be as good as he was the last two rounds. They're going to have to play lineups with him and SGA together and a defender and might even have to go a little smaller and he's just going to have to be good. He's going to have to do what he's done and we haven't seen him do it at this level. We've seen him do it in the regular season. We've seen him do it against in series where they were much better than the other team. This is a whole other level. So we're going to find out.

[Zach Lowe]

I love that you brought him up and I think you did for exactly the right reasons. I think it's very much worth noting that he missed three out of the five games the teams played this year and you felt his absence in the games. He wasn't there just the secondary ball. The more ball handling you could. I mean the spurs secret sauce against the Thunder was we have a ton of ball handling and enough that we can a get into the paint against your defense and be not collapse in a hail of turnovers because we have reliable guards and that's what you feast on. But the Thunder can play similar lineups now that AJ Mitchell has become AJ Mitchell to this degree. And I think we're going to see like I've been waiting for the Thunder death lineup all year and we've barely seen it and it's Shea, A.J. mitchell, Caruso, Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren at the end of some games or in crunch time of some games. We've had glimpses of it. One of the glimpses was in one of the spurs games. I was rewatching all of it. I think that's an awesome lineup that if we, if we see everyone healthy, we'll see a little bit more of it hopefully in this series than we've seen.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the lineup again?

[Zach Lowe]

Shea, Mitchell, Jalen, Williams, Caruso, Chet. It's like I want to, I want to close. Can I close?

[Bill Simmons]

So I have enough defense with Caruso and Chad just super dynamic, but I have a little more offense than 3 AJ in the door spot.

[Zach Lowe]

3 super dynamic ball handlers in Mitchell, Shea and J Dub. And just, I just think it's like, look, there's no door, so you lose a little heft, right? And there's no case in Wallace, who's sort of your defensive ace in the hole at all times. But, but just something to watch for.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause the other thing with the spurs is this is a fun series for them because they can play the Wemby with smaller guys lineup. They can play them with three guards and a swing. You know, play them with three and a half guards, whatever they want. And it's not like, okay, so you would be like, okay, we're going big and you're making. They're just not going to be able to do it. So I do think the guards versus guards thing, which was a huge advantage for San Antonio OKC has the guards. So at Mitchell, Alex, Alex Caruso, role player hall of Fame is like in reach now for him.

[Zach Lowe]

Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

This would be three titles for him. I think they really need him in this series specifically because I want to see who do you think Guards, Harper for them.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I think it's going to. All of these are just going to be a combination of tons of different people depending on who else is in the game for the team. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So let's say, let's say end of the game they go Fox, Harper, Castle, Basel and Wemby.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean they rarely play that. They. The spurs rarely put all three of the guards on the floor together. It just, it just hasn't happened very much this year. But sure, we can. We can.

[Bill Simmons]

Speaker 1 they were doing a little more in the playoffs though.

[Zach Lowe]

Just a little. But not very much. Cause Champagne plays a ton. Keldon Johnson plays a ton. Yeah, and. Yeah, but so. And like I, well, this is the, I mean this is the interesting chess match of the series is right. Like I think we would. The Thunder are awesome in any configuration and we have not seen hardly any of Hartenstein and Holmgren together against the spurs with Wemby on the floor. So those, those two. The double big. The best double big.

[Bill Simmons]

They have that you can't. You gotta play shooters.

[Zach Lowe]

They've only played 33 minutes against the spurs in five games, and it was really only in three games. And if you go back and watch, a lot of them were against Cornette and Harrison Barnes because Wemby came off the bench in two of the games that they played. And so they start and Wemby comes in and like when it's. Wemb is the only big man on the floor for the spurs and Chet is the only big man on the floor for the Thunder. I just think the chess match that's going to evolve over the course of this series is going to be fascinating. Starting with, do they guard each other? And if so, how often? Because the Thunder have put Chet on, you know, Harrison Barnes, Keldon Johnson, basically not Wemby. And the spurs have kind of toggled between Wemby shirt. You can guard Chet. You can guard anybody. But we like you have like guard Caruso and Rove. Guard Dort and Rove like. I. I just think that chess match is going to be super interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

And will dark guard, door guard Wemby, everyone. That will happen.

[Zach Lowe]

Dort guarded Fox a lot. So their bait, their base alignment, when it was one big versus one big. If they're. If they had one that was used the most frequently, it was like Dort on Fox and Jalen Williams on Wembanyama to switch that pick and roll and. And they would have the bigs elsewhere on the floor. But Dort will guard Wemby some. Caruso guarded Wemby some. Like, they'll throw everybody. They'll put Hartenstein on them now and then. Like, particularly I think when the. The starters are against the starters, it's just going to be super interesting to

[Bill Simmons]

see who guards who it's going to be. I. I don't. I'd love to know how many people OKC is going to actually settle on as the series goes along, because they were basically playing 10 and sometimes even 11 in the last two rounds. But I think that gets narrowed down. I think they probably end up at 9 would be my guess. Right?

[Zach Lowe]

That's usually what it is. I'll tell you. I can't tell if it was because OKC was, you know, like AJ Mitchell was out for a bunch of games, a couple of three of the games, as I mentioned. But like a guy that saw a lot of the floor against the spurs in the regular season games and who has not played hardly at all in the playoffs is Kenrich Williams. And I, I do wonder if he's someone that they look at as do we try him at the five a little bit or we like his shooting at the 4. Next to Chet, he guarded Wemby a bit. I, I wonder if he's a guy that is going to get a shot to play a little bit in the series.

[Bill Simmons]

Wemby I have for Legacy as this would be the single craziest ascent since 1977. Bill Walton Pretty much, if you're just like, hey, I'm going to actually win four straight series to take the title here. At age 22, Harper is definitely moving into that 1981 Mikhail, 83, worthy 88 Pippen 2003 Manu and Tony where this is just a guy at the beginning of his career who is also a huge chess piece and is somebody that I genuinely think he has a chance to be a Hall of fame like top 50 guardians. There's a House and I were talking about the other day like, like I was there when young Jason Kidd showed up and you know, some of the best guards of the last 40 years. I've seen the beginning stages. I just think he has it. Like, I would bet anything.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think that's a daring bet he had. He absolutely has it. He's going to be a star. There's a world in which this was a popular debate question I was meeting everyone at the combine was best player from that draft in five years and 10 years. Is it automatically Cooper or is it Harper? Those were the two.

[Bill Simmons]

Can't say automatic anything.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I think people would definitely defer to the size that Cooper has. But I, I think Harper being the best player in the draft is in play. And by the way, all the love Harper's getting is incredible. Like, he's incredible in the Ginobly comparisons. They're lefties, they come off the bench. Noble's mentoring him. It's an amazing story. He has totally stepped up in the playoffs. Steph Castle's averaging 26 and 5 on 49% shooting and 44% on 3. And just being a gigantic pain in the ass to everyone at every position on defense. And he's going to guard SGA a lot. And like, I just can't. I just can't wait for that. What a show that's going to be.

[Bill Simmons]

I had Castle as the next Legacy guy. I wrote down horrific haunting of the 2024 top three draft.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh my God.

[Bill Simmons]

What is Terrific at this point.

[Zach Lowe]

The Reed, Shepherd Steph. I mean for teams that had all

[Bill Simmons]

of them I had him first. But.

[Zach Lowe]

But but for teams that have massively high stakes like are ready to win big right now. The Rockets and the Spurs. The spurs didn't quite know that they were going to be ready this fast. Like that's a huge sliding doors moment and like the the coming history of the west brutal.

[Bill Simmons]

Cornet and Barnes have to be champs.

[Zach Lowe]

I was literally going to say when are we going to get to Cornette second title? When is that coming up?

[Bill Simmons]

How about Barnes?

[Zach Lowe]

Well, but you.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Darren Fox escaped from Sacramento. This guy was playing on the Vivek run a Dive Kings 18 months ago and now is in the best series in 10 years.

[Zach Lowe]

I just watched the Jailbreak the Jailblazers documentary on Netflix. Escape Escape from Sacramento. Sounds like the next Netflix or Amazon basketball mini doc.

[Bill Simmons]

Mitch Johnson vs. Dagnal. The most boring great coach matchup in NBA history.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Can anyone name three things about either of these guys?

[Zach Lowe]

Mitch Johnson went to Stanford. And Mark Dagnall coach

[Bill Simmons]

Leventure, Massachusetts. I know that. Mitch Johnson, son of John Johnson.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

NBA champ. Seattle ended up on the Celtics in 1976 and something got screwed up and I can't remember what happened. The trade got voided or the signing something weird and they actually had to trade him again to Seattle. But during that brief time looked at my mom and dad's condo, came into the condo because we were selling the condo, moving to another house and John Johnson, new member of the Celtic walked through the condo and six year old me almost had a heart attack. Or seven year old me almost.

[Zach Lowe]

What a.

[Bill Simmons]

That's. That's my most exciting Mitch Johnson story for you.

[Zach Lowe]

That's a. It's a lot of information about Mitch Johnson's dad.

[Bill Simmons]

How long could somebody spend with Mitch Johnson and Dagnaut together drinking beers before something fun would happen? I bet two hours.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I bet not that long.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd like because the Lemonster is going to come out of Dagnot at some point.

[Zach Lowe]

Everyone get. You get a couple people a couple beers in. It becomes a fun time.

[Bill Simmons]

One of my college roommates was from Leominster. Chuck Lapasta La Pasta. Chuck. La Pasta. Right.

[Zach Lowe]

Shout out Chuck.

[Bill Simmons]

And then last one for me for legacy check Adam Silver.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

The Spurs Knick series is sitting right there. This is your biggest rating series since 2016. WEMBY versus the Knicks.

[Zach Lowe]

What? What a.

[Bill Simmons]

Pull some strings.

[Zach Lowe]

Remember when the spurs were the boring killers of ratings? Even when they were like yeah, immaculate yeah, basketball team. And now they have freaking. Like, nobody can take their eyes off this dude. People who know nothing about the NBA are asking about him and watching these games. And by the way, I'm like, where We've barely scratched the surface on just how awesome this series could be. I mean, we were texting like, I looked it up because I'm like, man, the spurs, every loss they've had in the playoffs has been like, Wemby got

[Bill Simmons]

a concussion when they've played, Astros losses

[Zach Lowe]

when he got ejected. And I looked it up in the last since February 1st. And look, everything says the Thunder should win, right? It's experience versus youth. The spurs haven't taken their lumps back to back. Champs, number one seed, all of that stuff. And their record's incredible. And it's absolutely terrifying to not pick the spurs because in SE February 1, the spurs are 37. 3 playoffs in regular season, when Wemby plays at least 15 minutes in a game 37 and three in half a season, it's. They just don't lose. When he plays a real game, they don't lose any games anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Feels like they're just up 20 all the time. But you could say the same about okc.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah,

[Bill Simmons]

I'm picking the Spurs.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

They are. What, what is, what is their. What are the odds for this right now? Let's see. So they are plus 220 for the series. I'm taking it. I would do spurs in 5:51 or spurs in 6 plus 5:50 for.

[Zach Lowe]

But these, these are bets. Are you just picking them to win the series?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm picking the spurs to win. I'm just saying that the value I like are those two. I think what I think asking the spurs to win a game seven with how young their team are is in OKC is a little ambitious. I think it has to be in six. I like and Van Gly mentioned it today, it's a great point. I thought Van Gundy's been really good the whole playoff shout out to him. Two man booth. Clearly his destiny for broadcasting. Three man didn't like him. Two man. Great. Made a great point about the rustiness thing. We see this every year. We always forget the team that's been playing and is in the groove and can just go from one series. They always have an advantage in game one over the team that hasn't played. So I think the Spurs, I really think they actually have to win game one to win the series, as goofy as that sounds. And I think they are going to win game one. And so that one on Fanduel spurs to win game one in the series is plus 450. So I like that bet too. But I think the spurs are going to win, Zach. I just think they've caught lightning in a bottle and this feels like 77 blazers to me. I'm tired of thinking about the teams from the past and how you got to learn and take your lumps and I just don't think it matters. They have a 7 foot 7 guy who's out of control and a bunch of pit bulls and they absolutely struck oil with the still and Harper thing. Like this is to get those three guys in back to back drafts. This is the kind of fluke you need to win a title when your best guys are 22, 21 and 20. And I think it's going to, I think they're going to win.

[Zach Lowe]

I, I, I said it on Christmas. The spurs can win the championship and they absolutely can win the championship.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, and I forgot one more thing in my pick.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

The Jalen Williams thing is I know he's going to be back and they feel good about it. But I think it's a weird variable to introduce into the biggest series of the year and I don't think it's going to be seamless. And I do think OKC has too many guys. I don't know about all the roles with all those guys and they can, I know they have great chemistry and all that stuff, but, but I don't even think they know who their best five to seven guys are. I think San Antonio knows. I think they know exactly who they are, what lineups work and don't work for them. And I just think they're going to win.

[Zach Lowe]

These are all great reasons to pick the Spurs. You don't even need great reasons to pick the spurs. They won 60 whatever games. 37 and three in their last 40 games. When Wemby plays more than 15 minutes, I mean it's an unimpeachable pick. They can absolutely win the title. I'm going to pick the Thunder in seven.

[Bill Simmons]

I respect it.

[Zach Lowe]

The Jalen Williams thing is not a worry to me other than is he going to get re injured again? I think he probably could have come back earlier had they felt any kind of pressure at all from either the Suns or the Lakers. And they got to sit him out for a long time. I do. I still will like defer a little bit to the experience factor and having been through these moments of like big total stress. Although the spurs seem completely carefree to the point that Wemby was like, yeah, I'll kick a game by elbowing Nas Reed in the head. Like, I don't really care. We'll lose this one. We're going to be fine. I just want to elbow now read in the head because I'm fucking annoyed at everything.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And I look, they have a Thunder got a lot of guys. They have a ton of continuity. So I don't think reintroducing J Dub is going to be that big of a deal and they're just going to have to make some decisions. Maybe it's a big versus small decision. Maybe it's like not an Isaiah. The Isaiah Joe series. Maybe it's whatever. They've already done it with Aaron Wiggins too. And whatever 37 and 3 you can make. There's a similar record sitting out there for Oklahoma City and its last like 40 games with Shay or something like that. It's scary. This is a. The. What the spurs did to them in the regular season was legit. I went back and watched all the film. You can definitely see Shay looking uncomfortable, looking like, this is my pet. This is my pet jump shot. This is a pet move I do every game. I don't have it anywhere, but the guy on me is a pretty good defender and like I see that the giant arm there and I know he can jump really far and get to. And like you would see him pull out of shots that he makes in his sleep. But I think I look, these are two awesome teams. I think Oklahoma City has home court advantage. They're more experienced and I do think they probably have a little bit of an extra gear that they've been waiting and saving in reserve for a series like this. So I'm going to defer to the champs and pick Thunder and my second. As long. As long as we're being full disclosure, my second backup pick would be Thunder and six. Like this is not a case where I'm picking Thunder and seven, but I kind of don't. It's wishy washy and it's 50 50. I would. I'm picking the Thunder to win the series, so I think I would go Thunder and seven. Thunder and six. Maybe spurs and six is the third most likely outcome. But I'm going Thunder.

[Bill Simmons]

We both agree long series, six games is plus 210 on Fando and plus 220 is seven games. And that's another way to do. You could just bet both of them.

[Zach Lowe]

What's sweep plus 1200 or something like that?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh my God. Spur sweep is 25 to 1. Thunder sweep is plus 5, 50. Ooh, I just don't see it.

[Zach Lowe]

Ooh, that's a little lower than I would have expected.

[Bill Simmons]

Okc and 5 is plus 290. Okc in 6 is plus 470. It's pretty strong actually.

[Zach Lowe]

Can I just give Mitch, Can I just give Mitch Johnson a little love for this? Yeah, I mentioned how like teams have obviously all season gone back and forth with putting their centers not on Wemby and Oklahoma City has done that quite a bit and Castle is now like the guy that they try to do this with. And Castle has just been like, you think this works? Like this isn't going to work. How about I just shoot 45% from three and when I'm not doing that, how about I just barrel to the rim with all the space you're giving me and I'll score 32 points in an elimination game. But he's been the guy that like clinging, guarded Castle and on and on. Mid season moving Harrison Barnes to the bench in favor of Julian Champagne. I mean, it's one of the most important mid season adjustments a coach has made in a long time. It completely changed the spurs because Harrison Barnes was the safest guy to put your center on and Mitch Johnson had to go to Harrison Barnes, who was having a nice year and making a ton of corner threes but starting to slow down, be like, hey man, and is a, is a bigger, better defender than Julian Champagne. Bigger for sure. Better in certain situations. And say we're going to, we're going to start this unprove, like relatively unproven shooter over you because we just have to maximize Wemby and you're, you're too safe of a hiding spot for these other centers. They can roam off you. They don't have to guard him. And our goal just has to be we're going to make it as hard as possible for you to finagle the matchups with where your center is on the floor and like, it's Julian Champagne. It's not like some like 10 year veteran with a track record. And Harrison Barnes ate it and he took it and he remained productive. And now he's barely playing because that's what happens in the playoffs. And it worked. And it was like not a gutsy move, but it was like a, it was a big like seismic shift in how the spurs are, are guarded.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's a good one. Minnesota quick. This is another thing for my San Antonio case. I think Minnesota was really good and I Think San Antonio just kind of broke them as the series went along. Specifically Randall who just. His brain broke during that series.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a rough, rough playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Edwards wasn't 100%. They used some stuff against Minnesota. You know, obviously they were relying on Conley a little too much. Go Bear was eradicated in that series, but I actually thought it was a more impressive six game win because they really should have just swept them. You know, when he gets kicked out of the one game, I don't know the. That game one looking back like they. If Champagne just hits the three, they maybe they win that but. But I really like that Minnesota team. Which brings me to what do you do with them? Minnesota. Randall has 36 this year or this upcoming year and 33 the next year. Go Bear is 36 and 38. They also have to figure out I.O. and defince those 12.5 expiring next year. I don't think Edwards or McDaniels goes anywhere. Do you buy anything that this team got a little screwed up holistically when everybody was getting shot for three minutes there when they thought they had a chance to get Giannis?

[Zach Lowe]

Not really, because you didn't hear a lot of that when they were kicking the shit out of the Nuggets in the first round. Like it wasn't a. It wasn't a problem then against a team with, you know, one of the two or three best players, minimum two best players in the world. And when you lose then it becomes a problem all of a sudden. But against that team was a problem. What's the problem is Julius Randle's been in the playoffs four times in his career and three of them have been complete disasters. And one of them last year was, we thought, okay, got over the playoff hump after just. I think he came into last year shooting like 30% for his career in the playoffs and had a great playoffs. And he reverted right back to what he had been in the first two runs of the playoffs. That was that. Is that because of the trade stuff? I don't really, I don't really buy that. I think what really submarine them was Anthony Edwards was at 100%, IO was at 100%. DiVincenzo tore his Achilles and they stopped playing Bones Highland. Like they just kind of ran out of. Ran out of guys. And then Gobert had four points combined in the last two games of the series. I think it's a good showing for them with all that injury stuff. To take two out of this off the Spurs, I think is a perfectly Fine. Showing doesn't feel good.

[Bill Simmons]

So they can, they can put together Rando and defense. Enzo's expiring. He's not going to play next year. If he plays, he'll won't be back till April. And you could take back somebody else's big money problem if you want. Okay, like, you could be like, all right, we'll take Zach Levine's last year.

[Zach Lowe]

Why is. Why, what is that doing for me?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just, I'm just pointing out they could put those contracts together if they wanted to change something. They could think about something like that somebody's big expiring, which would give them more trade flexibility in December, January, February maybe, than what they have. I don't know what you do about Gobert after that spurs series. And who knows? It might be a get over the hump thing like we talked about earlier, where they had their run and this is kind of where they are. And now they're clearly just going to be behind San Antonio and OKC for the rest of the decade, and that's where we are.

[Zach Lowe]

You know what, though? Again, like, this is a franchise that from the last couple years of Garnett to the one Jimmy Butler year, just sucked. Sucked continuously and sucked in every possible fashion. I mean, like, a little flirting with, like, we're all, we're 500 with Ricky Rubio and Kevin Love. We're like a fun team to watch Nikola Pecovich, but, like, they just weren't good. They did nothing in the playoffs. They had the one Butler year. They lose in the first round.

[Bill Simmons]

Bad injury, luck with Rubio, bad injury without Jefferson.

[Zach Lowe]

And just like, everything goes wrong and then they. But the Butler thing goes haywire and then you're back not quite to square one, but back to, like, we got to figure out what the hell we're doing with this team. And now you've been in two straight conference finals and a conference semifinal where you win two games off Victor Wembanyama. Like, this is just indisputably an awesome three years for the Minnesota. Like all of their fans should are elated by everything that's happened.

[Bill Simmons]

With all that said, you can't bring Randall back.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, what are you going to do?

[Bill Simmons]

You have to figure out how to trade him for somebody else.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, this was the. This was always the mystery of, like, they're in Onionis. They're in Onionis. They're one of the teams that's like, in. In last 72 hours still in contact with Milwaukee. And I never got how that was going to happen because they don't have any. They have very minimal to no first round picks to trade.

[Bill Simmons]

I never believed it. I never understood how they were getting them.

[Zach Lowe]

But I, I, I believe.

[Bill Simmons]

But McDaniels would have had to have been in the trade for them to have any sort of assets to then give up for Giannis at that.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Again, I don't know how. But yes, if there's a person on their team who's getting you multiple good first round picks, that's who it is. And you know, I, I don't, I just don't know how they're going to do it. But if they were trying, then they'll surely try again.

[Bill Simmons]

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[Zach Lowe]

Well, you. This is your favorite, one of your favorite topics, so go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we're going to be talking about it for the next four to five weeks. He was in the news this week because Miles Turner gave that interview.

[Zach Lowe]

Talking about that was.

[Bill Simmons]

I was pretty. I have no problem saying this because he's not going to be on my team next year. So here's some tea I'm going to spill.

[Zach Lowe]

Or it's just like, hey, man, they paid me $25 million a year where I didn't have a lot, a lot of other options. I'm just happy as a clam. This is all great for me.

[Bill Simmons]

I know he stunk this year, though. I can't really find the team for Giannis. I thought this was going to be a lot easier last year if we were doing this a year ago. I think we had multiple suitors and just kind of talking to people and hearing from different people about this. I'm really surprised how lukewarm the market is for him. I don't think people feel like this is a home run. This will change my franchise. I will now have a chance to win the title. It was telling that San Antonio and OKC wanted no part of them when they had the most assets. It seems to me that the team that would trade for Giannis would be a team that needs to take a little bit of a Hail Marrier as a really short window. And that rules out a lot of teams. My dad and I have kind of landed. We hope it's not the Celtics. That's where I've landed after looking at this from every direction. I don't.

[Zach Lowe]

Simmons. Colon. Awful announcing tomorrow. Simmons.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Jesus.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't want Giannis in Boston.

[Bill Simmons]

Get that guy fucking outta here. I don't know. I went through all the stuff, what, two months ago about the year 14, and after big guys and how kind of creepy the stats were and how few guys even were able to put up 2010s and the injury history hit in the last five years. And it just doesn't. Something's just telling me to stay away. And I know some teams will talk themselves into it, but I just don't know what he's worth. I don't. I can't figure it out. So what have you, as you talk to people in the league, what are you hearing?

[Zach Lowe]

So I mentioned this last week when I got back from the combine, that it, like the thing comes out from seams that the Bucks are, quote, open for business, which we already knew that they're going to be open for business. Jimmy Haslam came out and said, we're going to be open for business. We want to do it before the draft if we're not going to sign him or if he's not going to sign, whatever. And it just like there's a It's a, it's an interesting paradox because there's a general. I mean, everyone was in Chicago. I saw a million people.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

There's a, There's a general assumption that he will get traded because that's just what happens. Right. Like when the toothpaste is this far out of the tube.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And yet no one can really identify the team that, that fits the right, the right package of like we have stuff, a lot of stuff that's going to entice Milwaukee and we're going to be good enough to justify it sending out all that stuff when Giannis is here. And I said this. I had. I met up with a very high powered agent who knows things and we were just shooting the shit. And I said, so what's your, what's your bet on Giannis? And he said, you know, I'm just, I'm going no trade.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm in the contrarian zone. I think I'm going no trade. I think he's going to be on the Bucks. And I was like, really? Why? He's like, I just don't know what the team is. Who's the team. Go through all the teams, find the team.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was like a. I heard you say this.

[Zach Lowe]

It was like a fairly convincing argument that I still. But didn't sway me. Like, I think he's going to get traded still. And that's why I said after all that if I just had to bet, if you made me like pick a team, that is, if I had just had to guess, if he's traded, where is he traded? I would put Miami as my number one guest team because they fit the Hail Mary thing you just said because they have just enough stuff that if they threw it all together, the Bucks could sell it as like, hey, we got, we got a lot. And maybe we can re flip this one guy we got and like get another thing and. But I don't feel great about that package, whatever it is.

[Bill Simmons]

If I'm Milwaukee, Portland would be the other team. And I don't even know if you'd want to go there. The other stuff.

[Zach Lowe]

Good thing he's. At least he's not a two way player so he can travel to all the games. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's fixing that though. Dundon, he didn't. He. He went on game over with Rich and Max and said he thought he would. Thought it was more like hockey. And he.

[Zach Lowe]

I saw that. I saw it. I didn't realize all the players went to the games.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, he learned he learned a valuable lesson. Some of the stuff we keep hearing, everybody seems terrified about the injury history and the miles on the body, right? Using almost like a running back in football or a car that has a ton of miles on it that's gone cross country. Just wondering, if I get Giannis, how many years left am I actually getting? There's also the stylistic thing. If you already have a best player on your team, how is that person going to fit with Giannis? A guy who likes to have the ball, who likes to be at top of the key, how does that fit with somebody like Jayson Tatum, right? And then, you know, I think everybody loves Giannis, the guy. I think everybody thinks he's a great guy. But there's some stuff that comes with Giannis, right? He's got multiple agents, he's got the two brothers. He's been the superstar in his own team now for 11, 12 years. Probably used. Accustomed to certain treatments, and it's just. It's risky to bring somebody in like that. We've seen it not work in the NBA, where it's like, I'm a big star. I'm walking in. This is now my new team. And sometimes it doesn't work, right. Even when Dame came to Milwaukee, it was rocky there for a year. It was a similar situation. So I think we're. I think we're both looking at the same team and some kind of Hail Mary situation.

[Zach Lowe]

Would you say you still expect him to be traded, though?

[Bill Simmons]

I do.

[Zach Lowe]

I do, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Because here's what I think has changed. I think it's become acrimonious with him and the gm. I think him not playing at the end of last year, I. I don't think it's on good terms. Well, look, understanding.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, the Miles Turner stuff got kind of a chuckle from people, but

[Bill Simmons]

that was real shit, man. He was basically saying the dude was never on time, ever, without saying who it was. But we knew who he was talking about.

[Zach Lowe]

And, like, I mean, I didn't realize. I, I. Did he not say who it was? Did he not. Did he just say it's the best player or whatever?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he. There was some dancing around, but you could tell who he was talking about.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, that's.

[Bill Simmons]

And he certainly wasn't kind to Doc either.

[Zach Lowe]

That kind of stuff annoys whoever it is, annoys players. Like, I've heard stories about we had to hold the plane because this guy was late. And everyone's grumbling because they have dinner plans when they get to the city, or like, the Guy, the guy was late for his massage table appointment and it like had created this whole backup that ruined everybody's days. And when the guy, if, if it, if he's talking about Giannis, like when the. You just. If you're the best guy on the team and you're the franchise guy, you can't do that stuff is not acceptable for someone. You have to be the other way. You have to be the guy who sets the standard for the rest of the team.

[Bill Simmons]

There's one other team that I think we have to mention and it ties into another theme that I've been wondering about. If there's going to be punishment against the Clippers, should they be moving fast right now and trying to trade their picks in case they're worried that they might get taken away? And if you're going to do that, like, do you just. Could you just trade the number five pick for Giannis right now and just.

[Zach Lowe]

We're trying to win a title with Kawhi and Giannis and Garland and.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think they would have the cap space to do it. They could put a couple expirings there to make it, to make it work and basically try to jumpstart if they feel like a punishment's coming. Because I think the, the feeling is we're gonna have a verdict pretty soon.

[Zach Lowe]

That would shock me, if only because, I mean, I was there when it happened and I, and I saw other people, like, they just feel like they got a new lease on life with this pick. I mean, just a new. That it completely changed everything about their franchise and it would just absolutely blow me away.

[Bill Simmons]

So who are the other Hail Mary teams then? I guess you could say if Cleveland gets annihilated by the Knicks, maybe they're in that.

[Zach Lowe]

That. That's what I was saying.

[Bill Simmons]

Seriously, would you trade Mobley for Giannis straight up at this point with the injury history? Because I don't think I would.

[Zach Lowe]

I'd be.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think that's a smart move.

[Zach Lowe]

It's. It'd be. I don't know if I would do it, honestly, but it. If like a couple years of Mitchell plus Giannis is, is interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You're short in your two year. Yeah, that's like a classic two year window move. I would be very nervous to do that.

[Zach Lowe]

So. Yeah, how the playoffs play out is a big part of it. Right. We haven't mentioned Houston. And then you have the other kind of older Hail Mary teams who may not have enough to get it done, like the Lakers and the warriors and, and teams like that. Right, but who else?

[Bill Simmons]

That's it.

[Zach Lowe]

That's it.

[Bill Simmons]

Rockets. I mean, would you trade Shengoon and another contract for Giannis and throw some picks in? I don't know if I would do that. The only other one I could think of is Brooklyn. I do not. As we said before, I don't think they're keeping their six pick. And is it like a two part move where move one is Giannis, move two is something else and you go in on two stars and now you're in the mix in the East.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, that's the thing with Brooklyn is like they've been floating around the rumor mill like this with Giannis for a long time. And the question has always been, like, what? Who is Giannis going there to play with? And given his age and his injury history, you don't get a year to be like, we'll find another guy. Like that year. You have to have your team ready to compete at the highest possible level. The 6 pick is super interesting. Like, I haven't heard a lot of buzz about the nets in the 6 pick yet, but they're just in the range where everybody's a guard and they just drafted a million guards and, and not all of them are like your guy buries is not a. Is not a point guard, so maybe he would fit there. But it is an interesting place for them to land.

[Bill Simmons]

He can't acuff or waggler have to. Has to be six. They just have the most value and they don't need either of those guys. I also think all the intel I've gotten is that they don't want to have another rebuilding year. Like they want to be good. They're tired of this. And the Nets are in a weird spot. The Cy family, who I think everybody thinks are great owners, and it's like a first class team, they have this awesome WNBA team situation where they sell out. People love it, there's real energy in the arena. And then they have this Nets team that's just punted and they're playing in the same city as a team that's about to make the finals, barring something crazy happening. So I don't see how they don't try to.

[Zach Lowe]

I had someone make the best possible pitch to me about the Nets at the six pick. And he was just. I don't even remember who it was. It was a front office guy on another team. He was just. He didn't know anything concrete. He was just saying this is what they should do. He was like, I don't even care who they took in the last draft. They should take Acuff, because he would just be, like, the ultimate draw. Like, the hipsters would be like, this kind of is a cool, undersized guy who does cool stuff. Like, he would just fit what. They just give him a buzz. Give him some hipster, like, street cred. Like, he would be. He was just like, fuck all the guys they just picked. Maybe they'll develop, maybe they won't. They should take a cuff no matter what, if he's still there.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree with that because. Because he has real Kyrie potential, and you have to investigate it. But, yeah, so if we're talking, you know, the draft's still five weeks away, but I do feel like we're in range now. It's May 17, the draft is in five weeks, and I think some trade stuff is starting, you know, for sure. The Celtics are certainly looking at it. I think. The Celtics, whatever. I've talked about this already, but whatever they decided to do with Jalen, I think would be. I don't think it's a Giannis move. I think it's more of a, can we get two pieces for Jalen, some salary cap relief and maybe somebody that makes less money than him two years from now type of thing. But I would say they're way more likely to keep him than trade him him. You know, I would.

[Zach Lowe]

I. I do think it's more likely that he's on the team next year than not. Yeah, I don't. I don't know anything more than that, so.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll see. It's a weird situation. Past midnight your time, and you have to get up early tomorrow, so we have to go. Anything else? We cover everything.

[Zach Lowe]

I think we covered everything.

[Bill Simmons]

Best thing you heard in Chicago that you didn't talk about on your podcast?

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, God. I talked about a lot of it on my podcast.

[Bill Simmons]

Seemed like a lot of people were there.

[Zach Lowe]

It was crowded. It was. It was. Everyone's always there. It's one of the. It's like Vegas, but in a shorter period of time and in a normal city and not Vegas, which I. I do like Vegas a lot, actually, but I. I'll have to think about that. I have nothing.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so we have. We have Knicks, and we have Spur. We. I have the spurs, you have okc,

[Zach Lowe]

and we both have Knicks.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Okay. Thanks to Cahal and Eduardo. Thanks to Zach Lowe as well. Don't forget new rewatchables for me tomorrow. Borat.

[Zach Lowe]

Very nice.

[Bill Simmons]

Really fun one. And then I'LL be back on Tuesday night. Zach's gonna have a new podcast on Tuesday morning after game one Spurs Thunder, which should be an all timer. Zach, great to see you as always.

[Zach Lowe]

It's gonna be a blast. Thanks for having me.

[Bill Simmons]

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