An NBA All-Star Fix, Kendrick Vs. Drake, and the 'SNL' 50th Anniversary Show With Van Lathan and James Andrew Miller

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast: Episode Summary Release Date: February 17, 2025

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, host Bill Simmons is joined by Van Lathan and Jim Miller to delve into three major topics: the current state and potential overhaul of NBA All-Star Weekend, the escalating beef between hip-hop giants Kendrick Lamar and Drake, and a comprehensive recap of the 50th Anniversary Show of Saturday Night Live (SNL).

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1. Fixing NBA All-Star Weekend

Current Issues: Bill Simmons and Van Lathan kick off their discussion by critically examining the declining enthusiasm surrounding NBA All-Star Weekend. They lament how the event has lost its competitive edge, transforming into a series of exhibition games with minimal stakes, leading to disengaged players and disinterested fans.

Key Points:

• Loss of Competitiveness: The All-Star game has become a mere showcase rather than a competitive match, with players not taking the game seriously to avoid embarrassment on social media (04:05).
• Overemphasis on Entertainment: The addition of non-traditional elements like multiple dunk contests and three-point shootouts has diluted the core essence of basketball, making the event feel more like a corporate spectacle (12:15).
• Player Attitudes: Modern players prioritize their regular season and playoff aspirations over participating earnestly in All-Star activities, reducing the event's perceived importance (14:14).

Proposed Fixes: Bill proposes a restructuring of the All-Star Weekend to reinstate its competitive spirit:

• Stakes and Incentives: Introducing tangible rewards such as home-court advantage for the NBA Finals would give players a reason to compete earnestly (22:20).
• Selective Participation: Restricting the All-Star Game to players from the top five seeds ensures that only those with something at stake participate, enhancing the game's competitiveness (23:28).
• Format Overhaul: Organizing the weekend into distinct events with clear objectives, such as separate days for dunk contests and three-point competitions, can streamline the experience and recapture the audience's interest (25:02).

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: "The All-Star Game has turned into just a terrible pickup game with no defense. It used to settle into being an awesome game." (12:27)
• Van Lathan: "They don't want to end up on Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, you name it, because they got dunked on." (11:57)

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2. The Kendrick Lamar vs. Drake Beef

Overview: The podcast shifts focus to the intense and ongoing rivalry between Kendrick Lamar and Drake, exploring its roots, implications for hip-hop culture, and potential long-term effects on both artists' careers.

Key Points:

• Historical Context: The beef between Lamar and Drake is portrayed as one of the most significant in modern hip-hop, representing a clash of styles and cultural perspectives within the genre (44:42).
• Cultural Impact: This feud has polarized fans, leading to divisions reminiscent of political affiliations, where support for one artist often signifies broader cultural or ideological leanings (47:04).
• Consequences for Hip-Hop: The rivalry is seen as damaging to the cohesiveness of hip-hop culture, creating an environment where personal conflicts overshadow collaborative and creative efforts (47:55).

Potential Outcomes:

• For Kendrick: Continuing the feud could either solidify his stance as a serious artist committed to the roots of hip-hop or alienate a portion of his fanbase.
• For Drake: Winning the feud might reinforce his status as a dominant figure in mainstream hip-hop, but ongoing conflicts could tarnish his reputation within the genre's more traditional circles.

Advice for Drake: Van Lathan offers strategic counsel to Drake, suggesting he focus on his strengths and legacy rather than engaging in back-and-forth diss tracks:

• "Remember that you're Drake. You're the artist of the decade for the 2010s. Take a breath and come back with some fire." (62:24)

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan: "This rap beef is tearing hip-hop apart. It's like a cultural litmus test." (54:45)
• Bill Simmons: "Kendrick's a one-on-one. He'll never be recreated." (59:40)

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3. SNL 50th Anniversary Show Recap

Overview: Jim Miller, an SNL historian and author, joins the conversation to provide an insightful recap of the SNL 50th Anniversary Show. The discussion highlights memorable performances, exceptional guest appearances, and critical moments that defined the milestone event.

Key Highlights:

• Notable Performances: Bill Simmons praises Adam Sandler's performance, highlighting the balance between humor and poignancy he brought to the stage (72:34). Eddie Murphy and Will Ferrell's collaborative sketches are lauded as standout moments, showcasing their legendary status within the show's history (72:34).
• Emotional Moments: The archival "In Memoriam" segment was commended for its respectful and timely acknowledgment of past SNL cast members, serving as a poignant reminder of the show's enduring legacy (86:03).
• Missed Opportunities: The absence of iconic figures like Chevy Chase, Dana Carvey, and Meryl Streep sparked curiosity and speculation among listeners and participants alike (84:21).

Critical Analysis: Jim Miller critiques the show's structure, noting that rerunning content from previous anniversary shows diluted originality. He emphasizes the importance of integrating both longtime and newer cast members to maintain the show's dynamic energy (75:23).

Notable Quotes:

• Jim Miller: "They had no dress rehearsal, so it was like Lorne and the writers were flying blind." (82:05)
• Bill Simmons: "Seeing Eddie Murphy and Will Ferrell on a sketch together was like witnessing two goats of the show performing." (73:05)

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Conclusion

The episode offers a deep dive into the evolving landscapes of sports, music, and entertainment. Bill Simmons, alongside guests Van Lathan and Jim Miller, provides critical perspectives on the need for authenticity and stakes in televised events like NBA All-Star Weekend and underscores the cultural ramifications of high-profile artist rivalries. Additionally, the thoughtful analysis of SNL's landmark 50th Anniversary Show reflects on the delicate balance between honoring legacy and fostering innovation within long-standing institutions.

Listeners are left contemplating the future directions of these influential realms, emphasizing the importance of maintaining genuine competition and cultural integrity in an increasingly commercial and digitally-driven world.

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Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: "This All-Star Weekend was particularly bad because it was so over the top, overproduced." (17:50)
• Van Lathan: "It's okay to like Kendrick and Drake. It's all right." (67:53)

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing insights and reflections on significant contemporary issues within sports, music, and television, making it accessible and informative for both regular listeners and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. The NBA season hitting full stride. Don't foul out on your chance to win with America's number one sportsbook. Bet on fun markets like Live Quarter, player props and parlays. Plus enjoy our new NBA Player Prop pages. Your one stop shop for player props that include FanDuel's exclusive performance trends, tracking the last five games for top markets. They even do that. The app is safe, secure and easy to use. When you win, you'll get paid instantly, so download the app today. Bet with FanDuel, official partner of the NBA. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus in President elect states game problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Coming up, we're going to try to fix NBA All Star weekend plus hockey SNL 50, HBO lots more next. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. State Farm helps you score an affordable price when you choose to bundle home and auto insurance with the personal price plan. Bundling home and auto, that's a pro move. Just another way you can save on your insurance needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, state, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have a new rewatchables coming for you. On Monday night we did Wayne's World in honor of SNL50. A little bit later Jim Miller is gonna be coming on to talk about the big three plus hour SNL50 show and our biggest takeaways. Also having Van Lathan on at the beginning of this podcast to talk about NBA All Star Weekend and can we save this thing? Is this just the sunk cost at this point? Plus we have some other stuff we're going to cover. We're also brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook. I didn't do great at my super bowl bets and I got seduced like a lot of other people with the Pat Mahomes thing. So I'm trying to make it up to you guys. But we have the seasons coming back. After this All Star break. I basically forced fanduel to come up with a playoff prop for me and this is what we did. We are going to do Minnesota, Detroit and Golden State to make the playoffs. Parlay plus 160 are the current odds. FanDuel is going to boost this for us because they're our friends. They're going to add a 30% ringer profit boost token on all to make the playoffs and to make the play in futures. So you could take that little Minnesota, Detroit, Golden State thing, which I love. It's basically come down to Golden State. And I believe in Golden State. I'm with you, Draymond. One of the rare times I'm with Draymond. So you could bet that. Plus 208. And it's going to be available basically from when you hear this podcast all the way until the Lakers Hornets game on Wednesday night. Fandom with a Ringer Future specials tab that you can find really easily. It's going to include that parlay and some other eligible selections. So claim the PBT in the carousel, apply it to my boost or other futures bets that you like. All right, we're going to bring in Van Lathan in one second. Pearl Jam's coming up. I don't know if you knew this, but during the SNL50 the Music show on Friday night, Eddie Vedder came out and he sang Tom Petty the Waiting, which was great. And then launched into Corduroy, which is the theme for this podcast. Thank you, Eddie. Here's Pearl. Jim. All right. I made Van Lathan come over. We're gonna talk about NBA All Star Weekend. Your new favorite sport. Hockey.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

You're a true patriot now.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Yeah. Hockey got me. It was a great watch. It was very intense competition on Saturday night.

[Bill Simmons]

The three fights in nine seconds got you.

[Van Lathan]

The three fights got me. I missed the first two fights.

[Bill Simmons]

Me, too. I started getting emails after the second fight.

[Van Lathan]

Right. And then I turned it on for the third fight. But then I watched two groups of players playing at the highest level who absolutely wanted to embarrass each other in.

[Bill Simmons]

An exhibition that meant nothing, that nobody even knew what it was.

[Van Lathan]

No one cared. No one cared. No one cared in terms of. Outside of the world of hockey, but they cared. And that.

[Bill Simmons]

And the people of Montreal cared. Did you hear how quiet it got the last five minutes of that game?

[Van Lathan]

Yep, they were super quiet. They responded when they. I learned some stuff. Now, what is it called now? When the power play happens? Okay, the power play. And then after the power. When they.

[Bill Simmons]

When they become even sides.

[Van Lathan]

When they become even sides. Is that called killing the penalty?

[Bill Simmons]

They've killed the penalty successfully.

[Van Lathan]

They've successfully killed the penalty. I heard this term when they've successfully killed the penalty. The excitement from the crowd because they didn't give up any goals during the power play. I was on edge the whole time. I'm watching the power play tick down and I'm like, oh, my God, are we going to score?

[Bill Simmons]

You're getting roped in. I can feel it.

[Van Lathan]

Got roped in. It's good.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we're taping this before all the Monday games. The Thursday finals gonna be in Boston, USA against somebody, hopefully Canada, because I can't wait to see USA versus Canada in Boston. Will be awesome. But that's not why you're here. You're here for a few reasons. We're gonna try to fix NBA All Star Weekend and decide whether it could even be fixed. Is it a sunk cost? You have a theory about. Well, do your expiration theory.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so certain things culturally expire.

[Bill Simmons]

And game shows.

[Van Lathan]

Game shows. For example, when I was growing up, Gilligan's island and all of these shows from the 60s and the 70s were still in reruns, but they were still in reruns prominently. Like, I still knew all of these characters. I still was aware of all of this stuff. And then one day, it just gets to a point. Nobody cares about Gilligan's island anymore. Nobody cares about Three's Company anymore. These shows just evaporate.

[Bill Simmons]

Cheers is like this. And yet Seinfeld lives on and Friends lives on. But then, like, Family Ties didn't. So you just kind of never know when it's gonna happen.

[Van Lathan]

There's a bunch of buffer years there. Seinfeld and Friends made it to dvd. And because they made it to dvd, like a DVD release that everybody was like, oh, my God, it's coming out on dvd. And they lived a little bit long in syndication on TBS and stuff. They're these kids version, and it sounds really, really bad of Gilligan's Island.

[Bill Simmons]

Of these older shows, I 100% agree.

[Van Lathan]

So this is an old TV show to a kid now. It's Friends, it's Seinfeld, it's an old TV show. But yeah. So things just. They go and they never announce when they're leaving. They never tell you, oh, my God, this is the last year that this is gonna be relevant. So it can happen. And the question is, could it happen to the NBA? Won't ever culturally expire.

[Bill Simmons]

Has it happened already to All Star Weekend?

[Van Lathan]

To the All Star Game? Has it happened to All Star Weekend? Has that culturally expired?

[Bill Simmons]

So a lot of it has to do with how being a sports fan has changed from the late 70s to the early 2000s to now. Right. When I was a kid, the all Star game was amazing because it was like George Gervin, David Thompson, people like that were never on television. So to have, like, some of my favorite Celtics in a game with people like Walter Davis, it was like, I never got to see those guys play. It really mattered. That peaked in 87. Best All Star Game we've ever had, though. You remember that, right? Orlando Blackman made the free throws with time expired to send it to overtime.

[Van Lathan]

I have no recollection of.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the best all Star game by far. I guarantee if you watched it, you'd have a great time.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Goes into overtime. Tom Chambers becomes James Worthy during the game. Magic's just feeding him. Bird's in it. Jordan's in it. Everybody's in it. It's amazing. And I think the last good all star game was 2001, because I did a running diary of the 03 all star game, which was Jordan's last one. It went into overtime. And if you just look at the basketball reference, like, oh, that must have been a good game. It wasn't. 01 was the last one. I think. What's changed? So I remember I got league pass in 2000 because I got a directv dish. I got to see all these guys constantly. Social media comes in, the Internet comes in, and it's just not special in the same way to see all these guys on a court. So they have. That's problem number one. Is there anything you want to add to that?

[Van Lathan]

So funny. As much as we have in common, like, the different lives that we've lost in 2000, I remember hiring somebody from the neighborhood so that I could steal cable, and you were getting the DirecTV.

[Bill Simmons]

Mine was more illegal because I lived in an apartment. I wasn't supposed to have a directv dish, and I had to lie and pretend I owned the house to get directv because it was, like, literally illegal to have it. If you just rented the cable.

[Van Lathan]

Guy literally knocked on our door and was like, hey, I done taking it off again. Don't have him come back up. I'm gonna have somebody come out here. So, yeah, here's the thing. The last all Star game might have been 2003. Okay, I can understand that.

[Bill Simmons]

That was MJ's last game. He wasn't good in it. It went into overtime. It wasn't a great game.

[Van Lathan]

But was that mj? Colby? Kobe has a red jersey on and him and MJ are going back and forth.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it had a coup.

[Van Lathan]

Right. However, the weekend endured for a little while longer because there were still such memorable moments from the weekend. There was Blake Griffin jumping over to.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that was 10 years later. Yeah, that was the last. Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Right. And then there was one of the greatest spectacles we've ever seen from the All Star Game, the Aaron Gordon, Zach lavine dunk contest. We're still having moments where there's still signs of life. It's still kicking, but it hasn't had a pulse now in a while. There hasn't been anything to make you go. As a matter of fact, the only thing I can think of was Steph Curry versus Sabrina, the shootout that they had. And they didn't even do that this year.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, because you can't. Mack McClung is fun, but I don't care about Mack McClung. They might as well pull somebody from the stands. He's not an actual NBA player. He's like in the G League. So at that point, just go get people from YouTube and have them dunk. It's not like Mac McClung's playing NBA minutes.

[Van Lathan]

You go against your own.

[Bill Simmons]

Huh.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it was a big weekend for the whites.

[Van Lathan]

It was a gigantic weekend for the whites.

[Bill Simmons]

Three point dunk hockey. But you became a hockey fan.

[Van Lathan]

Yes. Huge.

[Bill Simmons]

SNL 51 of the whitest TV events.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. They tried to make fun of it. We know the truth, though. So, look, there's just. No. This used to be something to where you saw all these celebrities and all of these people there. Not because it was a corporate thing, which is kind of how it feels now, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of. Right.

[Van Lathan]

Right now it feels like every time you see somebody famous, they're at the Meta party or the Pringles event or the whatever. It seemed like before that they just wanted to be there because it was the biggest party of the year or one of them, obviously. Super bowl weekend and other things like that notwithstanding. But now it all feels forced. None of it feels like fun. None of it feels grounded in basketball culture in any actual way. I actually went on Twitter and I asked what killed All Star Weekend? And the variety of answers was so wide, but they were also all plausible. Which tells me that the NBA has not just one problem with All Star Weekend, but several. There's a player culture problem as far as how they view the All Star Game. There's a top.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they don't want to get embarrassed.

[Van Lathan]

They don't want to get embarrassed.

[Bill Simmons]

They don't want to end up on Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, you name it. Because they got dunked on because they missed the three anything.

[Van Lathan]

Endless highlight feed type of situation. Right. There's a top down NBA problem. Some people were saying with Adam Silver. There's the way we ingest culture, which.

[Bill Simmons]

Is kind of the enabler Adam Silver.

[Van Lathan]

The enabler Adam Silver. So there's all of these different issues that's going on with the All Star Game.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the three pointers are the other big thing.

[Van Lathan]

Three pointer. And not one clear way to fix it. Not one clear way to say, hey, this will bring the magic back to the weekend.

[Bill Simmons]

It's turned into the worst. So the game itself has turned into just a terrible pickup game with no defense. Now that's the way it used to be for two and a half, three quarters. But the great thing about the All Star game was it would settle into being an awesome game. And it was always a nice little snapshot of like, who mattered that season. You'd see the five guys on each side, east versus West. You have a feel for like, all right, these are the guys now. This is it. Like, everybody else got to play now. Who are 10 guys that really matter Once they started messing with the teams and doing like the thing they did this weekend, and I flagged it from the beginning, the rising, the four teams and one of them's the rising Star. That's just stupidity. It really is. It's like nobody wants to see Zach, Edie and Stefan Castle, all these dudes who I like, but we don't see them on Sunday night. This is like, this is where you promote the biggest stars you have. There's nothing fun about watching these guys who have been barely in the league against like Steph Curry.

[Van Lathan]

They're trying to make the All Stars play and they figure if they put the young guys out there, that they.

[Bill Simmons]

It backfired. LeBron didn't play right. LeBron's like, I'm good.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think it's weird he just decided not to play five hours before the game?

[Van Lathan]

It's incredibly weird.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just a rare loss for him because there's no way you're not taking a loss and taking shit for the.

[Van Lathan]

So why everybody wants to see him? We don't have to star games to enjoy him. So everybody wants to see him. Everybody wants. Everybody just wants to see him out there. So odd thing. So, you know, as I tried to make myself watch it, like, I didn't try to make myself watch it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you love basketball. We should say as well, love basketball.

[Van Lathan]

So I'm going to watch NBA players doing cool stuff where the audience there just wasn't NBA players doing cool stuff. That's what the All Star Game is about. It's about NBA players doing cool stuff. Even the dunk contest, you have Mack McClung doing cool stuff. He's kind of not an NBA player, though. So it's still not NBA players doing cool stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I. Yeah, the closest is Castle, who is probably like the third or fourth best. Spur and the spurs have their five games under.500. He's a rookie and he was by far the biggest star in the slam dunk contest. That's not good.

[Van Lathan]

He should have won, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

He's pretty good.

[Van Lathan]

He was pretty good. But so, you know, it's just. It's tough, man. Like, there was a clip going around of the Thompson brother from up there in Detroit flying. Did you see this clip?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I mean, those guys are the best athletes probably in the league right now.

[Van Lathan]

Flew from, like, the restricted area and dunk the ball. It looked almost superhuman. And I'm like, that kind of energy and stuff is what you see happen to the dunk contest. It used to be one or two stars and then two or three. Oh, my God, this guy's a crazy athlete guy. And that mix of guys was enough to make that night electric. And it's just gone now. We're hoping that they don't fail and it just doesn't feel the same anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I give you a dunk idea? I just thought of this as you were talking. What about dunk battle?

[Van Lathan]

Okay, what's this?

[Bill Simmons]

It's just one guy challenges another guy at All Star Saturday, and it's just one on one. So the Thompson twins are like, dunk contest. Two of us, let's go. And the dunk contest is just like four, one on one, just for pride battles. Giannis is like, you know what I'm tired of? Tired of this wembanyama shit. Let's go dunk contest right now. You versus me.

[Van Lathan]

I would love it. My thing is, I would wonder whether or not these guys could take the loss. You know what I go back to? Do you remember when LeBron was adamant about hiding the video of getting poked on at his camp when the Crawford kid.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't remember that story. Which Crawford kid was it?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, it was Jordan Crawford. It was Jordan Crawford.

[Bill Simmons]

I vaguely remember it.

[Van Lathan]

So. Oh, my God. So Jordan Crawford dunks on LeBron at his camp and they hit the video. They like, they Deep Shadow Protocol Midnight boys. Pew, pew. They Deep Shadow Protocol. The video.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

And I just remember at that time thinking, this has been made into such a big deal. Getting dunked on is something that happens. Anyone can dunk on anybody. You get caught from behind, you can get lobbed, back door, whatever. But to me, that vision of yourself as a player and yourself as an entity is the same reason why these guys can't let their hair down a little bit and have fun at an All Star game. Because at an All Star Game, for it to be fun, somebody has to kind of lose. It's competition, it's fun. Somebody's going to lose a three point contest. Remember Allen Iverson goes out there and has one of the worst performances in the three point contest that we've ever seen. He laughs about it, right? He goes, maybe I should have practiced a little bit more now with the. With what you going to take on Twitter and how these guys are looked at. Nobody wants to be that guy. That's AI. That's one of the greatest ever. Who went out there and wasn't a three point shooter and ended up with 10 and laughed. He laughed about it. So I just think they take themselves a little bit too seriously. We take ourselves as fans a little bit too seriously as well.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a pastime to complain about All Star weekend. It's been 20 years of it. This was especially bad though because it was so over the top, overproduced. I just want to see basketball. I don't need to see. I don't need games to stop for a half hour. We don't need to honor the TNT guys forever. We don't need all these different. We don't need like a slam dunk. Let's remember Vince Carter in 2001, whatever that was. And we gotta do that for 10 minutes and then he comes out and has to talk to the crowd. I don't know who that's for. It's not for you and I, but it's also not for, you know, teenagers. It's not for eight year olds. I honestly don't know. People just want to see three pointers and dunks and a good game. Just go back to that.

[Van Lathan]

Can I ask you this? Is it possible that the basketball nerds have a hand in having ruined the All Star Game as well?

[Bill Simmons]

In what way? So with the three pointers or something.

[Van Lathan]

Else, you and I talk a lot about the differing style of basketball that we like. Yeah, I like seeing a motherfucker get dunked on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Ok.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the league, I do not like that.

[Van Lathan]

I get it. I think the league misses a Blake Griffin. I think the league misses a DeAndre Jordan at his height. I think the league misses some good old power basketball to get people up out of their seats. You know what I mean? I think the fact that we don't have as much of that anymore doesn't really translate to the All Star Game being good. Because what the All Star Game then looks like is a regular season NBA game where they're shooting so many threes. But when you have the best player, best players on earth all on the same court, you kind of don't want to see them do that. What you want to see them do is kind of dominate each other. You want to see them get into each other. You want to see all the different styles of basketball that they play clash. The old All Star Game was fun because it would be in a situation where you had the best players and everybody would have that little one on one thing. It would be like, okay, this guy's going to go against. This guy is going to go against Tim Duncan. Then Karl Malone is going to go against Charles Barkley. You're going to get all of that stuff. But that's not how they play the game anymore anyway. So you're really not going to get that in an All Star Game.

[Bill Simmons]

That was one of the most famous All Star Games ever was 1977, the year after the merger and Dr. J's first NBA All Star game. That was when he, I can't remember if he dunked on Kareem or Bill Walton. It was one of them and it was one of his most famous dunks. But he, tomahawk threw it down and he was just awesome in the game in general. It really meant something. And it was cool to have all these guys in one game. And that faded out by the time Jordan retired the first time. To me, there's two issues. One is the competitiveness and two is the style. And I think you can fix both. And I'm going to have a fix for you that I'm going to throw right after this break. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Wherever you like to watch the game at the arena, the bar, home, wherever. Enjoy every moment of the NBA season with an ice cold Michelob Ultra. And you know, we've done some stuff with them. So they'll send me the Michelob Ultra. I'll put it in the fridge. It's really interesting what happens. People come over, they want a beer, they go, oh, Michelob Ultra. Or I'VE never tried one of these. I've heard you talk about it. 100% approval rating every single time. Keep it nice and cold. It's delicious. There's only one way to watch your favorite teams drop buckets, and that's with a bucket of Michelob Ultra. Stock up on Michelob Ultra for the NBA season. Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch. Michelobotra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast and this episode is brought to you by Intuit. TurboTax didn't file a TurboTax last year. That's in the past. Now Taxes is getting the TurboTax app and filing your own taxes for free. If you didn't file with them last year. Filed by February 28th. All tax forms, all 100% free. Now this is Taxes Intuit, TurboTax. New filers and filers who didn't use TurboTax last year only must start and file your own taxes in app by February 28th. Excludes TurboTax Live full terms at turbotax. Com. All right, Van, it's time. We're fixing the All Star Game. And this is the best I've ever felt about a fix.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

And I actually really feel like I have it. Saturday slam dunk and then the first All Star Game and then Sunday three pointer in the second All Star Game. I'm going to explain. We need the All Star week and have coherence again. It needs to be east versus West.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

We also need stakes. And the whole thing about, well, home court advantage for the finals should go to which conference wins. You can't really do that when you have all these guys who could give a shit about like Trey Young's not just wait, I have a fix. Trey Young's not going to care if the east wins because he's not going to be in the finals. You know, so if you make home court the prize, you go to a 40 minute game. Go FIBA rules so it moves faster and feels different. And you have eight man teams from the east and the west, right? So we pick 24 All Stars total, but only 16 of them play in the big game on Sunday with the home court advantage at stakes. Here's the catch. Only players from top five seeds can be in the All Star Game.

[Van Lathan]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

So everyone who's in the Sunday game is actually going to care about home court advantage. So I have it seven on each side, plus an eighth person who's a commissioner pick. So eight versus we start everything at 7pm we have the three pointer, three point contest, first round of it, first half of the game, three point contest at halftime, and then the second half of the game. And here, here's, here's what the teams would be. So we would have. So the west, these are all top five seeds, okay? Jokic, Jaren Jackson, LeBron, SJ and Harden as the starters. Jalen Williams and Sengun coming off the bench and Curry as your, as your exemption pick. So it's eight East Tatum Towns, Giannis Brunson, Mitchell Mobley and Jaylen Brown. And then the exemption pick would be Cade Cunningham.

[Van Lathan]

Okay?

[Bill Simmons]

And we're just fucking going for it. Whoever wins gets home court advantage. Everybody who's in that game is actually going to care, right? Because this is like we might get a Game 7 at home if we win this.

[Van Lathan]

Certainly.

[Bill Simmons]

So then you have, then you move to the other thing, the Saturday game. You take the remaining All Stars, there's a Wemby, Siakam, Trae Young, Garland dame, Anthony Edwards, AD and Hero. And you have them play the eight best future guys. Castle, the Thompsons, the first, second year guys, they play those guys. $2 million prize, 250k per person. If you win 8v8, same thing, 40 minute games and you have the slam dunk after it.

[Van Lathan]

So that game is the Sunday game or the Saturday?

[Bill Simmons]

That's the Saturday game. Okay, so that's Saturday game, slam dunk, that's Saturday. Sunday is three point. And then this home court advantage finals game with all the top five, all the best players in the league with actual stakes.

[Van Lathan]

So I like it. So here's the deal. You still have the Rising Stars game. Do you have the Rising Stars game?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't have the Rising Stars. I have the eight best rising stars against the eight remaining All Stars who weren't top five seeds. So then we would have to change how we picked the All Star game a little bit. So we'd have to have at least seven from the top five seeds to be in this game.

[Van Lathan]

What happens when you get a vet in the consolation against the Rising Stars game who doesn't want to be there?

[Bill Simmons]

Then guess what? You don't get to fucking play in the All Star game anymore. That's the other thing with this. That's my next sprinkle.

[Van Lathan]

What you're going to have is what you're going to have.

[Bill Simmons]

That's my next sprinkle. Oh, the game's not good enough for you? Don't fucking come next Year, you're not eligible. That's it. Like let's. Adam Silver the enabler. Let's start hinting people with a ruler.

[Van Lathan]

Let's go. Okay, so the lakers are the 5 seed this year, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So they make it.

[Van Lathan]

But in, in the past, you might be looking at a situation where you had a team with LeBron who was in the play.

[Bill Simmons]

In LeBron, you're playing, you're playing on Saturday night. Or next year. Okay. Or next year you're not in the game. This is it. Once you dis us with this weekend, you're out. You don't get to play for home court advantage after that. Like, let's, let's put real pressure on these dudes. It's like this is an honor and a privilege to be in this game.

[Van Lathan]

How much leverage do you feel like the league has to do that? I'm asking, seriously.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this is an Adam Silver question because Stern would have been able to do it. Adam wants to be everybody's buddy. That's the difference.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because so again, I'm going to read you the teams.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, Go for it.

[Bill Simmons]

East, Tatum, Towns, Giannis, Brunson, Mitchell, Mobley, Jaylen Brown, and then Cade Cunningham is The exemption pick versus Jokic, Jaren Jackson, LeBron SGA Harden, Jalen, Wayne's and Shangu. And Curry is the pick. 8v8 40 minute games, three subs. That's it. Everyone's playing. We're fucking going home. Court advantage for the finals. At stake. I'm watching that.

[Van Lathan]

I'm watching it too. In your revamped All Star game is Victor Wimban.

[Bill Simmons]

He's playing on Saturday in this one. But it's like, guess what, Victor, still a privilege to be here. Go whoop on all these future stars. And by the way, next year get a top five seed. So you could be in the Sunday game, right? Cause then it would lead to some top five seed jockeying. It's like, oh shit, there's a week to go until they pick the All Star. We got to get in there.

[Van Lathan]

Well, it would also lead to something that I think the All Star weekend needs is stakes and hierarchy. Because if you're a top five type of guy, right, and you're playing in that game, not only are you an All Star, but you're almost like a more all starry All Star because you're playing on a team that's competitive, you've.

[Bill Simmons]

Grabbed a carrot, which is I play for a top five team. So I am in our biggest profile game. Here's the Other thing I forgot to mention, this is what they lose with the stupid. Oh, guys from different teams. And you have Jalen Brunson playing against Towns. And like, I like when teammates are on an all star team together, like this team I laid out. Tatum and Brown get to play together, Mobley and Mitchell get to play together. And then Brunson and Towns gets to play together. And that's like an advantage in a game like this. Right, Right. You have SJ and Jalen Williams get to play together. Jamal Murden and Mitchell.

[Van Lathan]

Both these guys are playing harder because they're incentivized, because they.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And it's like, hey, it's crunch time, man. We're, we're the 2 seed. This could be like a game 7 in the finals. But everybody who'd be in that game, including LeBron on the Lakers, like, has like at least a puncher's chance to play in the finals. And then you go down to the, to the runner up dudes like Wemby, sorry, like, you're not a top five seed yet. You don't get to be in the Sunday game.

[Van Lathan]

Here's the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Work your way up there, buddy.

[Van Lathan]

I get it. So these are the only two things that are going to stop the idea from really shining. Number one is the NBA is going to want to promote guys like Wemby, whether he's on a winning team or not.

[Bill Simmons]

Saturday night, huge audience right after the slam dunk.

[Van Lathan]

Right. And number two, I guarantee you, you get pushback from a surly vet, from a Steph, from a guy like that who happens to play on the team. That's not contending right now.

[Bill Simmons]

250 grand, your team wins, you get 250k.

[Van Lathan]

So that's your carrot. And then your stick is you can't play in the game next year. You would really be that draconian about.

[Bill Simmons]

I would. I think they have to be that.

[Van Lathan]

But do you think it's that it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Not like you're taking money from these dudes. You're just saying, like, look, man, you didn't give a shit about this weekend, so we don't want to have you back.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like this. It's a privilege to be here. You're representing the league. We're trying to build new fans. We're trying. Because the other thing with this, if I did that Sunday thing, I would start that at 7:00. Right. I want kids to watch it. I want kids to be up at.

[Van Lathan]

10:00 when we watch a little 7:00.

[Bill Simmons]

Eastern, 7:00 Eastern.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I want kids to watch it like the way they started last night. You had kids. It was like almost 11 o'clock at night, and there's some stupid thing and they're playing to 40. It's just like, what are we doing?

[Van Lathan]

How important to the NBA is All Star Weekend in your estimation?

[Bill Simmons]

I can't tell because I know they make a lot of money from it. It's a corporate event. That's what they do. I mean, if it were up to me, it would be two nights. That's it. I think it's too many nights. I think this break is, like, right now, there's no sports. We're taping this on a Monday. If this hockey thing wasn't happening, there'd be nothing happening right now other than college basketball. And people put down mock drafts.

[Van Lathan]

Spring training. Spring training's coming back.

[Bill Simmons]

Spring training's coming back.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw the new Red Sox double play combo. I got a little excited about it. We got Bregman. No, I think they need to some sort of juice or really seriously think about not doing it anymore. Those would be my two options at this point, our friend. Because here's the thing. It's bad for the league. It's bad to have a bad weekend where every type of fan you have is like, that sucked. I didn't like it.

[Van Lathan]

It's particularly bad this year where everyone was talking about the death of the NBA. The whole ratings discussion, the conversation over the product on the court. It was particularly bad this year for them to have a dud of an All Star weekend. They knew needed to have a good All Star.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then you have Draymond, too, on the announcing team, just killing it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but that's part of it, right? That's part of the criticism. Part of the criticism is about guys like Draymond who are in those positions who criticize the product of the league. You hear a lot of people talking about the inside, the NBA guys and all of that. I don't know how real that is. I do know that I personally enjoy not being babied. I want to hear what people that are that invested into basketball culture actually think about basketball. So it doesn't bother me, but I can see how Draymond shitting on that idea to have the younger guys on Sunday night, how that puts a preconceived notion in people's mind that those guys shouldn't be there on Sunday night.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but so two things. One, he was right. And I give him credit for saying it. Two, you don't want somebody who's on TV when it's this, like, thing you're trying to push and sell to your fans, just shitting on it. Which I think is a real problem for them, because football doesn't let football people do that. They don't. When the football guys are out there, everything is very like, let's go to so and so who talked to Pat Mahomes. And it's like this glowy, glossy light set and Mahomes says nothing for three minutes. They throw it back. And Gronk's talking about what a great guy is. And it's just how they do football. But I don't know, I kind of like it. I don't want to see critical shit when I'm about to watch a game.

[Van Lathan]

What about something that our friend Charlamagne tha God said?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

That the game is just suffering from it being too close to the Super Bowl. It being too close to so many other gigantic. I was at the super bowl in New Orleans that there's no possible way that I was going to be able to make. Make myself get up and go to an All Star game with all those.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Four days later.

[Van Lathan]

Four days later you would go.

[Bill Simmons]

If it was a good event, you would go. If it was like east versus west with finals home court at stake and people actually giving a shit. Like I've been at All Star games when people gave a shit. And maybe it was just for a fourth quarter. And it's fucking cool.

[Van Lathan]

It was one of my favorite things as the. As the NFL season kind of stretches out a little bit, that, that they.

[Bill Simmons]

Have to reconfigure out how a way.

[Van Lathan]

To kind of move their game away from the Super Bowl a little bit. Or else it's in the halo and the glow of the super bowl and the Grammys and the Oscars.

[Bill Simmons]

The real week to do it is that. That dead week between conference championship games and super bowl where they could maybe do it then. But that's also a good week for basketball because that's the one week people kind of drift toward watching games night after night after night. The question to me is like, do they care? And they claim they do. It also feels like, who's deciding this? Because whoever decided the structure of this last weekend, I don't understand it. It's not like an entertainment person. It's not somebody who can look at basketball objectively. So who is it? Is it like the owners? I wonder who's spearheading this.

[Van Lathan]

Well, when you look at the things that they try to do. To me, it always looks like they're trying to appease the players, which. I get it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

They're a league that is run essentially by their players. The players have a lot of power in the NBA. They're the face of the league. The league pushes them in a way that a lot of other leagues don't push their players. But it seems as if they're afraid to make the players step out of their comfort zones. Because at this point, forget about everything else in the All Star Game. Forget about the game. Forget about all that stuff. If we just hone in on the dunk contest. The dunk contest used to be such an electric event, like, even more so than the game for me. Such an electric event.

[Bill Simmons]

And then 20 years ago, it started to shift. And then they would have a couple good ones, but people forget the bad ones.

[Van Lathan]

But even if you get. This is another thing. If there's a decade span and you get three good dunk contest events, you.

[Bill Simmons]

Go one out of every three.

[Van Lathan]

One out of every three.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Like, we can actually win.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a win for you.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, that's a win. Like, the years that Nate Robinson won, they weren't spectacular, but they were memorable. And then if you get something that you can actually.

[Bill Simmons]

They were.

[Van Lathan]

I mean. Cause he.

[Bill Simmons]

I remember leaving the stadium for a couple of those and being like, never again. I'm never going again.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So what I'm saying is Dwight Howard, but Dwight Howard. That was great stuff, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Was it?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you didn't. You weren't into that.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't like watching centers dunk in a dunk contest.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, but he was some kind of different type of freak situation.

[Bill Simmons]

He jumped. Should Wemby be in the dunk contest? Like, how tall do we go?

[Van Lathan]

But Wemby wasn't going to be able to get to the point. Dwight was still short enough to where he could take flight. Remember Superman dunk? He threw the ball in there. It's crazy. It was nuts.

[Bill Simmons]

Have I told you my nobody should be allowed to use props in the dunk contest rule?

[Van Lathan]

I feel like I'm gonna hear it now.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, just like, what the fuck is a car doing on the court? And also, we've already seen it. Like, come on.

[Van Lathan]

But I mean, in a lot of dunk contexts, people jump. Is a human a prop? Could you not jump over a person?

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's about it. But I think the human has to be facing you. Like, they're a defender.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Make it look at least a little like basketball.

[Van Lathan]

So what I'm saying is something as. And look, there's even cultural conversations around the dunk contest. Like I can watch on Instagram right now, like Jordan Clingan and One Foot God. And the rest of these dudes that I watch on the Internet dunk and do dunks that are so fucking filthy.

[Bill Simmons]

Bring them on Saturday.

[Van Lathan]

Now that's an interesting thing to me. I always thought, what's the difference between.

[Bill Simmons]

Them and Mack McClung? He doesn't fucking play.

[Van Lathan]

I know. But my thing is I would make the NBA guys dunk against them. I would say, hey, the NBA guys if you want to. There's guys out there and all they're doing is dunking. All these guys are doing is dunking. They're just dunking, right? But there's a guy, he's like a seventh grade teacher or something like that. He's like a DJ Clark or something. I think for his name. All they do is dunk. I would have a dunk contest with those guys and then make the NBA guys dunk against them. Because when the white boy, Jordan Clingan or whatever his name is gets out there and starts shining on Saturday night, they're not going to want to be embarrassed. I will put some stakes on it.

[Bill Simmons]

I either want real stars or just find me the best dunkers. Three point shooters, whatever. I think they made a huge mistake not putting a couple of WNBA players in the three point contest too. I just think, I think people like the wnba, like Caitlin should have been in the three point contest. Just period. And I would add an sq. I would have had at least two WNBA players and I would have made the three point contest longer and I think it would have been more interesting. They own the wnba. It's not like it would be like this crazy. It's basically like what NBC used to do in the 90s where they'd be like, now the Friends stars are going on er and they do those crossover shows like just fucking bring Caitlin. Why can't she be at All Star Weekend?

[Van Lathan]

I didn't do it.

[Bill Simmons]

She's the biggest under 30 star in.

[Van Lathan]

Either sport in basketball. Like it, Like I, I think that's kind of an Obama era idea. I don't think you know that that's gonna, people are gonna be down for that now. That's gonna start a real, real, real, real dialogue.

[Bill Simmons]

I know where you're going, right? Counter. Are you turning the channel? That's what we have to go back to with all this stuff is, are you turning the channel? It's like Andre Jackson from the Bucks is dunking. I'm pretty sure I can go get a tee right now and maybe come back for Mac McClung trying to jump over IKEA. But if it's like three point contest and Tyler Herro just went, and now here comes Caitlin Clark, I'm fucking watching. I'm not turning the channel for that.

[Van Lathan]

So as much as we're talking about it, is it just over?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it's over. I think there's real fixes.

[Van Lathan]

Is it just over? Because if it wasn't over, this is like. It's kind of like the married couple that goes to.

[Bill Simmons]

They're in counseling for 20 years. They broke up, got back together, got.

[Van Lathan]

An apartment, and now they're trying bdsm, you know what I mean? To kind of figure out their relationship when really what they need is to go out and be back on the market. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, so you think the All Star weekends at BDSM stage, I think some.

[Van Lathan]

Of this stuff is really getting into.

[Bill Simmons]

This is why I'm telling Adam Silver's got to dress up like a dominatrix and make these motherfuckers play hard again. I mean, seriously, I don't think it's that dire because I think if you have stakes and you have stars, you can still win with a basketball sporting event. And here to bring it full circle to the hockey. We just watched. All these Canadian USA dudes really gave a shit. It wasn't just the three fights. That game was really. That was like a game seven. It was physical. Like, McAvoy had that awesome check on McDavid. Like, nobody hits McDavid like that. They were flying each other. They really cared.

[Van Lathan]

They were so.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't tell me that these guys in the NBA, you can't pull that out.

[Van Lathan]

They're playing it all starting now. So I get what you're saying.

[Bill Simmons]

We know it's there. You gotta pull it out.

[Van Lathan]

I know they. Well, wow. They're playing for something in that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I don't mind your idea. I don't mind your idea because it would be interesting for me. This is the thing. A lot of these things that we're talking about, they make the game interesting for me. And that's important for you? Yeah, that's important.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I would really care if the Celtics had a chance to get home court in the finals because they won this All Star Game. Certainly now I'm watching that with, like, Celtics friends.

[Van Lathan]

What are you doing to make it interesting? For them, for the players.

[Bill Simmons]

Gotta be money, home court matters. Gotta be money, home court matters for the top five seeds. That's a real thing. And then for everybody else, money. Throw money at it.

[Van Lathan]

Throw some money at it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it worked for NBA Cup. They threw money at NBA cup. And then people, the guys that played kind of gave a shit about it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they kind of, they want to get out there and play. I mean, look, think about it, man. If you win $250,000, I mean, that's one nothing.

[Bill Simmons]

Donate that to somebody one night at.

[Van Lathan]

Onyx for James Harden. I mean, that's a Tuesday at Onyx for Harden.

[Bill Simmons]

That's great.

[Van Lathan]

Fantastic.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a big win for him.

[Van Lathan]

So look, I remember baseball in the past. I remember them. If I'm correct, they went to doing home field advantage for the All Star Game for a while now. They stopped after a while though, didn't they?

[Bill Simmons]

But it had the problem that we're trying to fix with this. You have guys in the game who don't care because they're not going to make the World Series.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So what do they care about? You know, a game where a Game 7, the World Series is in this case, if you had all the top five seeds, they didn't care. Let's take one more break and we get to Raph Beefs.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, cool.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. In basketball, a blockbuster trade can make or break your playoff run. Before the deadline, GMs across the league scour for the right data and insights, hoping their moves pay off. February 6th trade deadline this year. By the way, just like in basketball, growing your small business in 2025 all comes down to how well you can build your team. That starts with better insights from LinkedIn with unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. LinkedIn has the strongest hiring data and insights to help you identify the right professionals so you can make the best hiring decisions. LinkedIn pairs you with the high quality candidates you need to make your business grow and flourish. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. Who isn't? That's a big pool of people you don't want to miss out on. And who knows, one of them could be your next All Star player. So hire smarter in the new year, find your next Great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons Once again, LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by VRBO Private Vacation Rentals. With vrbo, you always get the whole house so you and your fellow fans can cheer on your team in peace. What's worse than watching a game with somebody who's not rooting for the same team? You're rooting for nothing. But that's why if you book a vacation house with vrbo, you know all the people in your house, they'll be friends, they'll be family. Ideally, they'll be the ones who also root for my teams. Plan a winning vacation. Make it a vrbo. Kendrick versus drink day 280. I don't know. It's like the Aaron hostage crisis. Day three, 10 still going. Kendrick's having, like. This is, like, driven Kendrick to, like, a plus plus levels. He's just dominating. Coming off super bowl show, Drake still seems like he's interested in continuing the beef. He's like, keeps coming out of his corner. The. The trainer's like, no, no, no, no. I'm going to throw the towels one more round.

[Jim Miller]

One more round.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this the last rap beef ever for you?

[Van Lathan]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

The last huge one.

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

So this is just gonna keep happening.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

There'll always be one. There's just not enough room on the mountaintop for everyone. There'll always be one. The moment that rap beefs in, there's no more hip hop.

[Bill Simmons]

So we need. It's fundamentally, we need this in the dm.

[Van Lathan]

Fundamentally, you have to have it. Fundamentally, you have to have, like, I hope everybody's paying attention right now to, like, what Kanye west is doing. Kanye west made it like he had all of these philosophical reasons for hating Drake. During that whole time. Back in the day, when me and Kanye were going back and forth or whatever, when we went back and forth with teams, he actually emailed Kanye and then he emailed me back, and he went through this whole rant, and in the middle of the rant, he just mentioned Drake for no reason. This is 2018. He's missing Drake for no reason. It's like. Cause the radio was playing Drake. Drake ain't talking about nothing. I was like, this guy must really not like Drake. But really the reality of it was that the only reason why he had a problem with Drake was because Drake was on top, because Drake was threatening him. And now you see Kanye.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why most rap beefs happen.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Kanye's sniffing around a little bit, and he's acting like he wants it with Kendrick now. So there's always gonna be that one.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like the crazy guy in the street who's just yelling outside somebody's window.

[Van Lathan]

But there's always gonna be this competitive thing in hip hop, just like there is in sports to where some guy's gonna wanna take with some other guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the reason I asked why is this gonna be the last big one? Is because Drake lost it so decidedly. I wonder if it becomes like NBA All Star Weekend where it becomes not worth it. The risk reward thing is almost too great. Cause Drake would be this casualty everyone look back at. Other people think he's just gonna, he'll go away for four months, come back and he'll be fine.

[Van Lathan]

Well, the problem with that is, is that you're never gonna. The rap beef you don't have as much control over. Right. Cause somebody can decide that they're gonna diss you for any reason and once they do, you almost gotta say something. So that's.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, if you're on equal footing.

[Van Lathan]

If you're on equal footing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Sometimes. If you're not on equal footing, sometimes you can let it slide. Some guys don't choose to let it slide. With this one, it's particularly interesting because I'm starting to think that this rap beef is going to do irreparable harm to hip hop.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, explain.

[Van Lathan]

This is tearing rap apart. Like, it's one thing to. If you have. If you take any of the other beefs, right. If you take Jay Z and Nas, if you take Big and Pac, if you take.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Big and Pac both died.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but not because of no rap beef. That was over some.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but it is tied together somehow.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, it was like just messing around. But that was really over some other sheets. Shit. Y'all can go to vladtv.com if y'all want to. Like, he got the whole scoop on Vlad. Got the whole scoop. But this has become such a flag planting by each side that the seriousness of the allegations. And there's always been serious allegations and like, you know, some hyperbole and all of this stuff. But right now it says something about you if you're a Drake fan. It says something about you if you're a Kendrick fan. And it's like it's this weird hip hop version of the Democrats and the Republicans and the division that we see politically and culturally in America, like in music. And that just means that everybody can't party together. And you have Kendrick, who's actually saying it's time to let the party die. And then you got the girls, that's going well, we still want to shake our asses. Is it okay if we shake our ass? And then we don't really know if it's okay. Is it okay if we don't care about some of the social causes and issues that Kendrick cares about? And I personally don't. I think you should care. But there's always been a part of hip hop that was just about the fun. This is casting people in such distinct roles and it's so vicious. Maybe I'm getting older, I could be getting older. But this one is so particularly vicious with the fans going at it and really trying to sabotage each other that it feels like it's time for everybody to just take their foot off the gas a little bit. Just like relax.

[Bill Simmons]

The Internet in full bloom. We've never had for one of these the way we have the Internet in the shape it's in in 2025.

[Van Lathan]

Particularly this post Elon, every no holds barred version of 24.

[Bill Simmons]

No holds barred, no hold barred Internet in every respect, right? Because even if you can go as personal as you want, you can do AI stuff now, there's all these different ways you can make the other side look bad, right?

[Van Lathan]

And so like right now it's getting to the point to where, okay, so Drake dropped, it came out, it was very successful for them. Wasn't my favorite music in the world the one Friday, the one that just came out. Sexy songs for you, Drake and P and D wasn't my favorite music in the world. However, you could listen to that and tell that somebody gonna like it and it doesn't mean that you have. It doesn't make you a bad person or it doesn't make you an asshole. If you like Drake and it doesn't make you righteous if you like Kendrick. Like they're both two entertainers that represent and do different things. And while I probably gravitate a little bit more towards not don't probably, I gravitate a little bit more towards what Kendrick does. I think he's a very important, very important artist with really something to say and really represents something. I like a lot of Drake records and I always have liked Drake and I've always liked listening to him. So I just think it's being taken a little too far now. A little too far. Now take your foot off the gas a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

My son, Ben Simmons, not the Clippers. Ben Simmons, he says it's over. Drake's dead. Nobody cares. That's his 17 year old LA take.

[Van Lathan]

I'll be honest with you. Drake was beaten in this as decisively as I've seen any rapper ever beaten in any beef.

[Bill Simmons]

Was it like a foreman Frazier?

[Van Lathan]

Wasn't a foreman Frazier because that joint was two rounds. But I would say it was Pacquiao Marquez, four. See, it's not Mayweather Gotti. Cause Mayweather Gotti was Ali, Cleveland Williams. Oh, hell no. If you guys ever want to see a killing machine, go watch Ali vs. Cleveland Williams and Ali. It was. No, you know what it could be? It could be a Hagler Hearns. I'll tell you why. So it's a short film.

[Bill Simmons]

It's longer than three rounds, though.

[Van Lathan]

Longer than three rounds. A short fight.

[Bill Simmons]

With a lot of action.

[Van Lathan]

With a lot of action. However, at the end of it, Hagler brutalized Tommy.

[Bill Simmons]

Greatest. Greatest. One of my greatest boxing photos ever. Hagler like this, with his hands up and in the back. You can see Hearns being, like, carried back to his corner.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Fucking classic.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Hagler brutalized. At the end of it, it was clear. They both went crazy, but it was clear. Very clear and decisive. Who the tougher motherfucker that was.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you give Massachusetts credit for Hagler or no?

[Van Lathan]

I thought. Oh, well. Yeah. Broxton, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Brockton, half hour from Boston, 35 minutes. Brockton.

[Van Lathan]

So is that Boston?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, that's why he was so mad, because he grew up black in Boston. So he had to beat the.

[Bill Simmons]

Why did I open myself up for that? Why did I do that?

[Van Lathan]

That's why he was so pissed off. That's why he was beating people up like that. That's why I had to do it.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the hardest fight for me because Sugar Ray was my guy, but Haggar was basically a Boston team. So I picked Sugar Ray because Sugar Ray was my favorite from, like, the 76 Olympics on.

[Van Lathan]

Sugar Ray won a fight. He won the fight.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought he did. It's one of the great arguments, though.

[Van Lathan]

He eked it out.

[Bill Simmons]

There's other people who are, like, passionately convinced Hagler won, and they get really mad if you bring it up. I just think he was sloppy and landing, and he was off balance the whole fight. I didn't think he fought a good fight.

[Van Lathan]

This is going to sound so crazy, and people wonder about these obsessions I've had. I've watched two different broadcasts of the fight. Like, I've watched the broadcast.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not surprised to see me blinking.

[Van Lathan]

And then I've watched the. I've watched the fight with the sound off as well. And so it.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, sound off is important because the.

[Van Lathan]

Crowd was really behind Leonard and the announcers, too. He made a couple tactical mistakes, but I was doing all of that stuff for a podcast, but he made a couple tactical mistakes. He came out. I think Hagler came out orthodox and he's a southpaw. He tried to box with Leonard a little bit. He made some mistakes in the fight. I do think that had there been a rematch, that Hagler would have fucking destroyed Leonard.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he went to Italy. There was no rematch. Hagler wasn't the same after the Mugabe fight. He was kind of. He had a lot of boxing miles on him at that point.

[Van Lathan]

Wasn't the same going into the Mugabe fight either.

[Bill Simmons]

Early 80s. Hagler against that version of Leonard, he. He knocks him out.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I mean, once again, this is Leonard at middleweight. Leonard had come up from 47 or.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe, but he was smart. He planned out. He would steal like the last 20 seconds of rounds. Like, he really figured out how to win a scorecard against Marvin Aguard. Anyway.

[Van Lathan]

Anyway. But look, I get it. Drake lost the rap beef. It's over. He lost decidedly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but what do you do after you've decidedly lost the biggest rap beef at least of the last 10 years? Right?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, this might be the biggest rape 12 years. It's certainly the biggest rap beef 21st century. I could make an argument. And look, you'd have to get Knife Wonder, you'd have to get Sway, you'd have to get Ebro, Charlemagne, all of those guys that live and breathe hip hop. I can make an argument this is the biggest rap beef ever. I can make an argument this is the biggest one ever.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's tied to the generations too much, though. Why would you. It's almost like arguing about different eras of basketball.

[Van Lathan]

Well, but the only reason why I.

[Bill Simmons]

Say it is because Biggie Tupac was like. The whole art form was still evolving as that was happening, and it was so tied into this incredibly influential decade.

[Van Lathan]

I get it. And I was there for that one, too.

[Bill Simmons]

And here we're already set. Music is. Music is what it is. Everybody's figured out their versions of had it. So it's almost amazing that it got to this point. I didn't think it was possible anymore.

[Van Lathan]

But that's what makes it different to me. So Big and Pac come out and remember. There was also some personal stuff that was going on in that beef as well. Oh, yeah, there's some here too, but not quite as much. This seems to be different to me because it's almost more Akin to Jay and Nas, because this is the culmination of an entire generation of hip hop work. You have two guys that come out roughly around the same time. Drake beats Kendrick by two or three years as far as on the national scene. And then for a decade, a decade plus, they dance around each other, they poke at each other. There's disses on records, there's references on records, there's interviews, there's all of this stuff. But these two guys, along with Cole, are recognized as the two biggest stars of their era. These are the two biggest guys in that era. And then they essentially fight or spar or battle for the kingdom of that era. They battle to decide whose music and who's more influential, who matters more. And there's so much behind it. You're talking 10 years of work, you're talking two different outlooks on hip hop, like two completely perfect foils, even down to the fact that one guy represents this long legacy of hip hop that comes from Southern California, from Compton. Think about all of the Compton post.

[Bill Simmons]

Ojoa, all of that stuff, right?

[Van Lathan]

And then you have one guy who is an upstart coming from with a new style of hip hop.

[Bill Simmons]

Degrassi, High Zone, Drake, Degrassi, all of that stuff.

[Van Lathan]

But still has roots in Memphis, right? It's almost like it was, and I don't want to overstate it, it wasn't just a hip hop battle. It was a cultural litmus test, in a way, which is another reason why I think people are taking it so, so seriously. It was like a battle of what the truth of hip hop and hip hop culture is. So it was very, very, very high stakes. And the song that won was obviously a song that accused Drake of a lot of things. But the one thing that it accused Drake of more than anything was not being a part of hip hop. And so it just ended up being incredibly high leverage in a way that I don't think that I thought it was going to be. So I could make an argument that like this, because of those reasons, that this is the most consequential one that I can remember.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the other way to help your argument is the best song that came out of this whole beef becomes one of the best songs of the decade, at least most famous, most influential will be most discussed 20 years from now. And people are like, the 2000s. What were the big songs? It'll be one of the first ones mentioned. All the other rap beef songs, none of them hit the heights that this did. I mean, this is basically, I'M not going to say Michael Jackson, Thriller territory, but that one level below.

[Van Lathan]

Well, it was going to be difficult for first off, fuck your bitch and then click. You claim to really, really go pop. So it was going to be difficult for that to really, really go pop. But I would say that culturally Hit him up was being played in the club. Like this is different. This is a number one.

[Bill Simmons]

They weren't playing Hit him up at the Super Bowl.

[Van Lathan]

They weren't gonna play Hit him up.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like Aaron. It's halftime at Chargers Niners. Here comes Hit him up.

[Van Lathan]

Here comes Pac. Oh, he's got a lot of red on. But they weren't gonna play that. But this one, it went everywhere. And that was also. Once again, it was kind of Kendrick saying. Not that he hadn't had hit records. It was Kendrick saying, I can make a hit record that dances on your grave. You known for making the people dance. I can have those same people dancing on your grave. And he did that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a tough one. I don't know how Drake bounces back from it. It's also. There's a talent issue too. Successful in great as Drake's. Some of his stuff has been. Kendrick's just levitating at a slightly different level. Whether you. How much you like his music, whatever. Like he's the best artist that the genre has produced in the last 12 years.

[Van Lathan]

Drake is insanely talented. Kendrick takes himself. Kendrick is.

[Bill Simmons]

Kendrick's a one on one. He'll never be recreated.

[Van Lathan]

He makes more important music. I think the music that he makes is probably a higher difficulty. I don't want to take anything away from Drake's talent, but I don't want. But he's. He's insanely talented. Kendrick, you can't make that many great hits without being talented. Dot is something that we ain't never seen. I mean and we knew this. He's just. It's almost like he didn't want to. Like he's something that we ain't never seen before. To me. To me. And a lot of people would feel that way about. About other artists, about Drake. Like Kendrick's ability to communicate but also to be relatable. All of that stuff. He's just different to me.

[Bill Simmons]

You think Drake. Cause Kendrick's short. I think Drake really missed out. I think his dis response could have just been like an entire short song.

[Van Lathan]

He's talked about the fact that he's short though.

[Bill Simmons]

But he didn't really go after it. I think that's like his one move. Left and it'll probably be clumsy and not work.

[Van Lathan]

Well, he should have sampled short people.

[Bill Simmons]

Just the whole short song. Just like, just mocking Kendrick for being short. It's like his only move left.

[Van Lathan]

Now the problem is, is that you'll do that, but the reality is like.

[Bill Simmons]

Then you look thin skinned.

[Van Lathan]

No, it's an extra thing with Kendrick. Cause Kendrick on one of these records. Kendrick says it might be on Dodger Blue. He says, have you ever ran a fade, then ran three more back to back? If not, then shut the fuck up and keep it rap. And that's basically he's saying like, if you want to fight, we can fight. You know what I'm saying? If you want to fight, we can fight too. You. The thing is, with how psychotic we've seen that he is, you just don't know the level that he won't go to. So it's like the best thing to do is just to rap about it. Just rap.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Kendrick's going on tour.

[Van Lathan]

Going on tour.

[Bill Simmons]

And this will just keep going and going.

[Van Lathan]

It's time to let it go. Kendrick doesn't want to.

[Bill Simmons]

Kendrick's not letting it go.

[Van Lathan]

He doesn't want to make the mistake of orienting his career around Drake. No, he won't. Get back to pushing the culture forward like you always have. You've done the victory lap. There's no bigger victory lap than the Super Bowl. Get back to doing the second.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so you're Drake's Tom, Tom Hagen. You're his conciliary. He hires you for a week. What are your two pieces of advice for Drake?

[Van Lathan]

Okay, two pieces of advice. First of all, Tom Hagan, not a wartime conciliator. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, how about this? Maybe he was. They just didn't give him the chance.

[Van Lathan]

Or maybe Sonny was.

[Bill Simmons]

They just decided he wasn't because maybe.

[Van Lathan]

Sonny was just a Tyler.

[Bill Simmons]

Let me tell you what my kraut MC friend.

[Van Lathan]

She was the best. And I've had him all over the place. Now you get your ass out of here. He doesn't get that movie. What would I tell Drake to do? Number one? The first thing I would say is just remember that you're Drake.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Ok. Remember that you are literally the artist of the decade for the 2010s. So number one, it's going to be okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Take a breath. Go to Booby Trap. Chill out for a second. And also remember why people love you. They don't love you because you are the most devastating battle rapper of all time. They don't love you. Because of that, you already carried out of one battle. They love you because you make hits. So come back with some fire. Chill and come back with some fire. And I'd say something else. I said this on Higher Learning and Rachel disagreed and the entire audience disagreement.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I can't wait.

[Van Lathan]

If I were Drake, if this is possible with Jay Z running things. Right. Because I know they don't have the best relationship. If I were Drake, I would do the super bowl next year.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Van Lathan]

Yep. If I were Drake, I know it seems like he's coming behind Kendrick, but let me tell you what, if Drake does the super bowl next year, let me tell you what could happen. Number one, he can do something. He can answer the Lil Wayne question because Lil Wayne wants to do the Super Bowl. Lil Wayne and Drake could do a whole set at the Super Bowl. Then Drake looks like for the entire south, which likes Drake anyway.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so now this is. It's almost like politics. You're trying to win the South.

[Van Lathan]

You're like, now it looks like Drake is the one who. It looks like Kendrick took the super bowl stage away from Wayne and Drake is the one who gave Wayne his due. You can do the young money thing. Drake could do a whole super bowl. Whereas Kendrick did a Super bowl that was very dedicated to his audience and didn't have some of the hits that he knew before. Drake could do a whole super bowl of just hits. It could be just hits. If people talking about they love hits. Drake could do such a low stakes Super Bowl. Yeah, I'm talking about nice for what? Hotline Bling. Miss me? I'm talking about so many joints. I'm talking about all the joints with Lil. And it could be hip hop because he could have Gunna and Lil baby out there. If those guys will be on the same stage. He could have thug out there. He could have literally a Super bowl full of hits and pop records and people would like it and he could leave reasserting.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's 11 months from now.

[Van Lathan]

I know. For that 11 months you gotta.

[Bill Simmons]

Oof.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, you do the Will Smith. You chill.

[Bill Simmons]

You're just gone.

[Van Lathan]

You chill. I mean, he already dropped the album, so he probably gonna. He's on tour.

[Bill Simmons]

Ben Simmons thinks he's dead.

[Van Lathan]

He's not dead.

[Bill Simmons]

He said it's done. Nobody cares about Drake anymore. Ben Simmons quote, My 17 year old son who knows everything.

[Van Lathan]

That could be true, but I don't think it's true. But that a lot of people care less than they did. But even his back catalog, even his Back catalog is enough that Drake will never be out of the public.

[Bill Simmons]

I like your idea of him attacking different parts of the country correctly. Almost like he's running for an election. He's like, all right, where's Kendrick week? I can get him in the south, can I get him in the Northeast? Like just start picking different pockets, culminating in the super bowl show.

[Van Lathan]

Also, I'll just say this Drake, his, his support was cratering a little bit before this because Drake had, in my opinion, made some really weird moves. Like the decision to kind of support Tory Lanez and dis Meg thee stallion when black women had been the ones that had been supporting Drake. And even when other black men would be like, ah, Drake too soft. I don't like the way it was black women that held Drake down and really like, really kept him at the superstar level. And I just remember when he made the decision to make light of Meg getting shot and to outwardly support Torre like that a lot of women were like, what is he doing? Like what's the deal? And so a lot of the insulation that he would have had from getting his ass lit up like he did was gone. For a lot of different reasons, right? For a lot of the. He had decided for some reason before all of this started to go heal a little bit and yeah, but it's almost like wrestling.

[Bill Simmons]

I always feel like pop artists, different musician, different genres. You got an 8 to 12 year shelf life and then you got to start figuring out next acts. You think about even somebody like Hulk Hogan comes in, hits big in the 84 range. And by the time we get to when he turned in WCW, yeah, that was like 1112 year mark because it was like his character had run its course the way he was doing it. He's got to flip it now. I'm going to darken my beard and become Hollywood Hogan. Think about how many musicians have been able to even hit. Musicians making big hits have been able to last longer than 10 years. It's not a lot comed by the way. Another one is funny actors, like comedians, like comedians in movies churning out like funny stuff that we care about. It's like eight to 10 years.

[Van Lathan]

But those comedians, then they have to audible. Then they start, you make a drama.

[Bill Simmons]

Now all of a sudden you're on like a streamer show. You gotta start. And I think it's really tough to stay relevant in music for that long because eventually the new kids that are listening to it are gonna determine who's hot and they don't wanna root for like they don't wanna like their dad's music. They want their own music.

[Van Lathan]

But once again, another reason why it was smart that Kendrick did it. The timing. Drake was at kind of a little low, a lower point. He's still making hit records. TLB for all the dogs. All those things still sold really well. And he hit him when he was down a little bit. So we'll see. But everybody, it's okay to like Kendrick and Drake.

[Bill Simmons]

It's okay to Van Lathan just trying to heal America.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, it's okay to put on. Not like us didn't listen to family matters. It's okay to listen to push ups like and Euphoria. You can listen to. I listened to nonstop this morning when I was walking the dog. It's okay. You guys. You guys can like both guys. It's okay. It's all right.

[Bill Simmons]

And if you have your Kanye playlist, maybe roll the windows up as you're jamming along to it right now.

[Van Lathan]

Some of them records gonna get played. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Some of them records gonna get played. It's tough.

[Bill Simmons]

He has a lot of great.

[Van Lathan]

Huh? The Gaza. The Gaza. He's a. He's a real. It's tough.

[Bill Simmons]

It would have been nice like 6 years ago if he just like moved to Australia and just started raising cattle and just moved to a different point in his career.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. You know what I don't want to talk about. It's an anti Semite. I don't want to piss anybody off.

[Bill Simmons]

It's rough.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not great. Not great. Meant a lot to my family over the years. Not awesome. Not a great turn of events.

[Van Lathan]

It's just like. It's just weird. You can't. You can't.

[Bill Simmons]

But then you're not cranking it at a July 4th party.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. It's all in a light.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, I got seven Kanye songs in a row here for everybody.

[Van Lathan]

What about all of the lights, though? What about street lights? What about.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing. That's why you roll the windows up.

[Van Lathan]

Roll them up.

[Bill Simmons]

Van Lathan, good to see you. We're doing rewatchables. Van's going to be on rewatchables on Monday and then Higher Learning and Ringiverse as well.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by the White Lotus. Season three. One of my favorite shows. Beautiful locations, twisted characters, unexpected scenarios. The White Lotus is going to Thailand. You know, I'm excited. I mean, we're doing Prestige TV again. Me, Mallory and Joanna Robinson. We're doing right after Every show putting a recap episode on the prestige tv. Same luxury, new reservations for all of us. How are they gonna make this show better? The answer is the show's great no matter where it is. I'm excited to be in a new country with our weird, mysterious, probably creepy White Lotus gang. But I love this show. Watch a new season in the Emmy award winning HBO original series the White Lotus. New episodes now streaming on max.

[Kyle]

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[Bill Simmons]

All right, we couldn't let SNL50 go by without an appearance from our friend Jim Miller, who has been on here many times. He wrote the oral history of snl. He is an even bigger SNL student than I think I am, which I don't even know how that's possible. But we just had a three and a half hour Sunday night show last night that featured almost everybody ever who's been involved with the show. Who's still alive. What was your biggest takeaway from last night?

[Jim Miller]

Well, listen, I think it was pretty good. I loved Adam Sandler, Eddie doing Tracy Morgan, I could watch all day. Particularly given Eddie's tortured history with snl. It was just great to see him back. The world's a difficult place when things work out between people and there's not contention and people forget about things. You know, Bill Murray saying something nice about Chevy Chase. It's. It's time. It's all good. I missed Bill Hader, you know, wish he had been there. Tina continues to be terrific, but there was enough. There was enough good stuff. Going on that made you feel like it was, it was worthwhile.

[Bill Simmons]

I think one of the coolest. Sandler, I thought kind of. I don't know if anyone wins a three and a half hour SNL episode with that many people in it, but Sandler's thing was great. And it was, when you saw him, it was like, is this gonna be funny? Is it gonna be poignant? Is it gonna be both? But he really nailed it. And then for me, the highlight was just seeing Eddie Murphy and Will Ferrell on a sketch together. Cause I think those to me are the goats. Those are the two best people in the history of the show.

[Jim Miller]

I mean, and by the way, with Adam, let's not forget that Jack Nicholson introduced him. Jack hasn't been seen in, I mean, unless you're at certain parties or whatever, that's a big deal. And it was wonderful for, for that to happen. But you know, Eddie Murphy being on the NH is just incredible still. I mean, he saved. You and I have discussed this before, but Eddie saved the franchise. Yeah, without a doubt. I don't think if, if that 19 year old Eddie Murphy hadn't come along when he did. We're not talking about SNL50.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, there's no question. And not, not only that, but I think he was the only person who was probably overqualified to be in the show. Like he ascended out of it. It was like he was like moonlighting on the, on the show almost by the end where I don't, I don't know if that phenomenon's ever been recaptured.

[Jim Miller]

Well, I will say though, Kristen Wiig, I said, I told her she gets big, big. I don't know. I mean, she came on after Bridesmaids. She stayed in the cast after Bridesmaids. That's pretty impressive.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you're right. Yeah, a couple people have done that, I guess, but yeah, and Kristen got.

[Jim Miller]

One of the great send offs of all time. Do you remember that?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jim Miller]

Mick Jagger singing to her and her dancing with Lauren. Not everybody gets that kind of send off.

[Bill Simmons]

So the big people missing Hater, and we don't know why they didn't come, but Hayter and Aykroyd I think were the two that jumped out to me the hardest that I feel. Yeah. But I think Hater would have been involved in multiple sketches because you think like Molly Shannon was in multiple sketches. You know, the, the, the way they were using different people and how, how great Hader was as a glue guy. I just think he would have been all over the place.

[Jim Miller]

So he was he would have been all over it. Fred Armisen was in a lot. You know, I think. Look, I don't. I don't know. I didn't talk to Bill and ask him exactly why the awkward thing was a little suspicious because at one point he said, it depends on who asks me and what they want of me. And it seemed like there was a Bill of particulars attached. And as Lauren has said many times to people, we don't negotiate with terrorists. So maybe he was unwilling.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. And then Dana Carvey was the other one that I was surprised by because he's been on the show this year and he had said he was looking forward to being on it. So I'm not sure what happened with that, but I think he would have been involved.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah, without a doubt. Without a doubt. Particularly given. I mean, Martin Short was visible, very visible, and I think Dana would have had a lot to do.

[Bill Simmons]

So do you feel like part of it was SNL 40? Felt like the original version of this and the 50th is they're basically rerunning a lot of the stuff they did in SNL 40 with 10 years of newer cast members, only a couple of whom have come even 20% as close to hitting the heights as some of these other people.

[Jim Miller]

You may be onto something. Look, I was there at the 25th, and that was outrageous because nothing like that had been done. Remember last night, they did not have a dress rehearsal. So this is the equivalent of Lorne and the writers flying blind because one of the great luxuries, right? You go in 8:00, you throw everything against the wall, you see what sticks, you can figure out what belongs in the show, what doesn't. And also, more importantly, sometimes the order, right? I mean, you get a real sense of it. I mean, occasionally they'll screw up and put Wayne's World at 10 of 1 the first time it aired, but. But they had no dress rehearsal. And I think maybe it wasn't that it was derivative build, but that it. Because they had done the 40th the way they did it, it was like there was some muscle memory, like, we can do this. We'll have. We'll still have the monologue. We still need a big music act, we still need a big closing music act. And then, of course, it's the emotional arc that you just referred to with. With Adam, right, Which is you're going to have uproarious sketches, then you want some poignancy, then you want some memory. I thought. I thought one of the great things about Adam also was that they snuck in a memoriam in there, too. It wasn't just like a capital M, Oscars or Emmy memoriam. You saw Jan Hooks, you saw Phil, you saw the people that Norman, unfortunately, couldn't. Of course, Norm. Yeah. I mean, that could be there. So that was an elegant way of doing it. And, you know, they did that in the 25th in terms of recognizing people who had passed. And so I think that they. I'm not saying they used the same playbook, but it certainly felt like, you know, there was that DNA of 40th anniversary there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. There was some stuff that didn't surprise me. Like, you knew Paul Simon was going to lead the show. That was just the way it's going to go.

[Jim Miller]

Paul and Paul open and close with two of Lauren's best friends.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But Paul was like, you know, he hosted the second show, which was basically. It turned out to be a Simon and Garfunkel reunion. The sketches were shoved to the side. And I think Lauren was so worried after that first show, what would even be in the second show. He geared it towards Simon, and then Simon became this guy that's been on over and over and over again. And now it's pretty striking how old he looked and how old Mc McCartney looked and be like, that makes sense because this show's been up for 50 years.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah, exactly. But you bring up a good point about the second show. You know, I feel this way about the Sopranos, and there's actually. Somebody should really do. It would be a really cool article. You get the first show and you're spending so much time thinking about the first show. Right. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, shit, we got a second show. And like, the Sopranos didn't find its way till episode five.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jim Miller]

Saturday Night Live, you know, really? I mean, two, three, and four. Good stuff and everything. But you still didn't understand the DNA. It wasn't. The broth wasn't fully simmered. And I think that particularly when you don't get an order, like nowadays on streaming services, you get an order, go do eight. So you're thinking about that a lot of times when you're just doing one by one, you need to get them on your feet, on their feet before you can really learn things. And so Paul Simon on episode two, if people go back and watch it, man, it's an experiment. Let's call my friend Paul. Let's see how we can stitch together 90 minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And it was basically a musical show with A couple sketches in it. That second episode thing, I've thought about that a lot. Because when you're creating a show, especially if it's a drama, you're spending a year plus on the pilot, right? And you're getting notes from all these people and you're going back and then finally you cast it and you're casting these people who have never played the characters before. And it could be a year long process. You make it, and now all of a sudden you have to make eight more episodes, nine more episodes. And you're doing that as fast as it took to do the entire process for the pilot. So it is something that I always think about when I watch new shows.

[Jim Miller]

Well, it's an incredible thing because also in the first episode, you're establishing the characters, so you're trying so hard to like, introduce the character that you're spending all that time on that. That's why with like the Sopranos, not to get off track from snl, but the Sopranos. The biggest fight David Chase ever had with HBO was in episode five was, were they going to watch Tony kill somebody, right? And like, Chase is like, dude, like, this is what the guy does. He's not a Hallmark salesman. He kills people. We gotta show it. And it hadn't really been thought of before that because it hadn't come up. And so I think particularly in for snl, episode two, episode three, episode four, it's a cocktail, right? And like, getting down, like, how much of Albert Brooks, how much is of a movie, how many commercial parodies are we gonna have? How much time. Are we gonna do two musical acts or just one? You know, how much time does that leave for everything else? And then, of course, what is Weekend Update going to be? Because Weekend Update had this huge advantage, right? Chevy was the only one who said his real name, I'm Chevy Chaser. Or not, he got all that time by himself. Other cast members were a little resentful of that, trying to cut back on that. So it takes a couple shows to iron out those arguments.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And it probably wasn't until the prior episode that the show really knew where it was going and what it was. Which was the 11th episode of the first season. Right. There was a couple other good ones until then, but about midway through that season, the show became the show. But they ran the first episode on Saturday night in the 11:30 spot. Yeah, it's a. Like Carlin's does three different monologues. The Muppets are on there. Like, that show's all over the place. They have no idea what it is yet.

[Jim Miller]

Well, part of it also is the Carlin was stoned out of his mind. He was unavailable at certain points throughout the show. The other thing that is worth mentioning is, like, Chevy, 15 minutes before the first show, said to one of the producers, hey, what do you think I should do after this? Because he was convinced it was going to be a failure. Right, Right. And Bourne kept that Lawrence. I mean, Lauren is Lauren. I mean, he's telling everybody, oh, no, this is. We're going to. This. It's a hit. We're going to be ahead. We're going to be ahead. Even before the rating suggested it, before anybody had written about it. But by the fifth time, when Gilda is walking down Avenue of the Americas and start. Starts getting stopped by people like, oh, my gosh, you're so great, and whatever. And she's like, what?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jim Miller]

The show changes when people know it's a hit.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Jim Miller]

Even though SNL wasn't going to pander to people and it wasn't going to try and become a hit. Right. They were just going to do what they thought was cool. And it caught on. And so that also has, I think, a real impact on the trajectory of the show. Because then all of a sudden you're like, well, we don't really care whether somebody thinks this is going to work or not. We're going to think we're going to have Beethoven at a piano playing something Belushi. Go ahead, do it. And we think it's cool. I mean, who. There's no time to, like. I mean, they address, but there's no time to really test that out. So it became a real powerful force.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And the amount of people that watched the show as it was happening in the 70s versus how it's consumed now, which says so much to do about the choices we have now and just how we consume Entertainment. Like in 1978, if you didn't see the show live, it wasn't on again until they ran the reruns in the summer. That was it. You missed it. You just heard word of mouth. Oh, my God, they had the sketch last night. Now it's like you can miss the show, and if there's something amazing in it, there's a big moment, you just watch it the next day on YouTube.

[Jim Miller]

Miss the show. Most people watch clips. Most people get. Maybe they'll get YouTube clips or they've customized it somehow on X or something else. But I think a lot more people obviously are watching it during the week than are Sitting down in their Barca Lounger at 11:35.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the surprise of I'm watching this, I don't know what's going to happen. That's just shifted into something completely different. But what's weird is the show, at least from an audience standpoint in 2025, is still big. I think it's like probably the biggest non sports weekly property that exists.

[Jim Miller]

Well, it's the highest rated non sports entertainment show on linear television.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Which is nuts.

[Jim Miller]

Incredible. And that's why you get to spend nearly $100 million a season doing it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we'll see how long that lasts. Some stuff from the show that jumped out to me. So Meryl Streep, who had never been on the show, never hosted. And how many times do you think they asked her?

[Jim Miller]

A lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Weird that she never did it. You know, she seems pretty fun. Like I'm at. And she lives in New York City or she lives in Connecticut. I think I'm just surprised she never did it.

[Jim Miller]

Look, they asked Tom Cruise a lot. He never did it.

[Bill Simmons]

That makes more sense to me.

[Jim Miller]

Because of dyslexia and the cue cards?

[Bill Simmons]

No, because he's Tom Cruise. He's weird. I don't know what to make of Tom Cruise. You know, I don't like going any direction with Tom Cruise. I don't know.

[Jim Miller]

You know, he's a big movie star.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a big movie star. And you know, he's more likely to jump a motorcycle over some mountain that he would be to host a live sketch show where anything could happen.

[Jim Miller]

Actually, you know what, that'd be a great question if I get him in an interview again, I think what would be more terrifying for you? Going over like the Grand Canyon in a motorcycle or hosting Saturday Night Live? And he might say the latter.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I think he would definitely say the latter. So he never did it. Meryl Streep never did it. And then the other one who never did it was Jack Nicholson who was partying with all these people in the 70s especially, you know, he's in the Belushi books.

[Jim Miller]

Like he's early and often, man.

[Bill Simmons]

So by the way, so is De Niro, who was there last night too. De Niro finally broke and hosted, but I think Nicholson and Streep are the two biggest stars that never hosted the show. Right. I have two most famous actors. Other than Cruz.

[Jim Miller]

Other than Cruz, yeah. I would say that's it.

[Bill Simmons]

Those are the three.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah. I mean, De Niro did a couple walk ons from time to time and then eventually Hosted.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he did the Joe Pesci show. Yeah, that was the best. That was the best when Jim Brewer was. Jim Brewer. Probably his best thing when he was doing the Pesci things. So anyway, I love seeing Meryl Streep with Kate McKinnon. Even though that Alien encounter sketch, which is great, but it's the same sketch every time. They're just rerunning all the beats. The Meryl Streep ad was fun.

[Jim Miller]

The ad was fun. And Kate is one of the few people that can pull that off, that give his, you know, even though you know it's coming, it's still fun to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

And she's just trying to make everybody else laugh. So we had that. We had Black Jeopardy. With Eddie Murphy playing Tracy Morgan next to Tracy Morgan, which was. That was the first time I really laughed in the first, I don't know, 30 minutes where I was like, oh, my God, they're doing this. It's super exciting.

[Jim Miller]

It wasn't just Eddie coming on, doing Eddie or doing something. He was actually impersonating Tracy, who was standing right next to him, was so good. That was a rough add on with Tom Hanks. But I will say the Black Jeopardy sketch that Tom Hanks did do back then was, you know, legendary. It just was really hard last night after, After.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you didn't need anything else with Eddie.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah, that was tough. And by the way, Eddie was good doing that. Eddie was good.

[Bill Simmons]

Eddie was one of the big winners last night. They tried the Lawrence Welk thing with Scarlett Johansson and Kim Kardashian, Gasteyer, Kristen Wiig. That's the same sketch every time. The Q and A from the audience was captivating, especially with the nice tv, nice widescreen. Because every time they cut to somebody in the audience, you could watch, you could see everybody who was in a specific section. I wasn't even really listening to the Q and A. I was like, wait a second. Oh, oh, there's that and there's that person. And I almost feel like that's. They intentionally do that. Right. So we could just see who's there.

[Jim Miller]

That was the whole purpose of it. They did that in the 40th as well. Yeah, you get to show off the wares, you know, I mean, like, because unless people are watching the red carpet or whatever, a lot of those people, like Jerry and Larry, Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David were in the audience, obviously, but weren't in the show. Right. So, you know, it's a great way to show them off. And not only that, but Tina and Amy, are the only. Really the only two people that could handle that because you got a riff on it, you got to tease. I mean, it's really. It's much harder than it looks.

[Bill Simmons]

Really smart way to get a bunch of people involved in the show. I got to say, the most surprising person. I don't know why Kevin Costner was there because he's never hosted the show. It just felt like they needed a star. And he seems like he's pretty available in general, like he was at UFC last month. But Letterman being there was shocking to me. That was somebody that's never hosted the show, and I never felt like had a real connection to it in any way, but maybe he did and I'm missing something.

[Jim Miller]

I hate to say it, but it's like driving a Porsche 40 miles an hour. Because why point out to us that Dave is here not using and then not use him for anything? I mean, I just. I kept on waiting for him to do something or say something from his seat even, or whatever. And it wasn't anything. So, I mean, I guess. I don't know. It was weird. Julia too. I mean, Julia is Julia Louis Dreyfus, even though she had a hard time when she was an SL cast SNL cast member. Yeah, she could have done. She could have done anything. She's. She's fearless and she's terrific.

[Bill Simmons]

I was surprised by that. I was surprised. Bill Murray ranked the Weekend Update per People and started with Colin Quinn 10th, who wasn't there. That just felt like a direct shot. But. But that was. It actually felt like old school Bill Murray. Like his pace and his timing was really good. I thought.

[Jim Miller]

Well, I thought it was brilliant that he did this Black Anchorage first out of the way. And then what it wound up really doing was just being a real dig to Colin Jost, who didn't make any of the spots.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Jim Miller]

So I think the Colin. Colin Quinn thing at the beginning was just to think. To make Colin Jones think that he was going to be on the list because Colin. And then he waited a bit. I mean, Bill Murray's timing is fantastic. And he was Friday night at Radio City Music Hall. He was awesome as well.

[Bill Simmons]

So we had Mulaney's New York tribute, which was like this big giant movie that moved through the eras of New York that I actually thought was really well written and interesting. I'm not positive at 100% worked, but I liked it. They ran back. Don't Look Back in Anger. One of the great pieces of content that shows ever produced, thank God. And from start to finish. They didn't just run a minute of it. They actually. Which I thought mattered.

[Jim Miller]

It was really. I mean, the irony, of course, that Belushi wound up dying first, but also when he mentioned Gilda, I mean, the whole thing is just perfect. It's one of. I think it's one of my favorite snl Moments of 50 years.

[Bill Simmons]

No question. I was watching with my wife, and my wife didn't totally understand why they. She's not a big SNL student, so she's like.

[Jim Miller]

And you guys got married?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, she was like, why did they. Why did they run that? That was weird. And I was like, well, here's the backstory. Like, they ran that Belushi lives and he was actually the one that died first. And she was like, oh. I think she was, like, half paying attention.

[Jim Miller]

But that's what I meant, though, in terms of, like, the rhythm. Also, Lauren, I think, pays more attention to that than he talks about. And when you have something boisterous or something supposed to be really broad and loud, and then you come to something like that, it's a really interesting symphony that he's conducting there.

[Bill Simmons]

So we had the stagehand, we had the In Memoriam thing I thought was probably my favorite part of the show when they did the In Memoriam of all the times they've crossed the line. And I'm like, are they gonna show Uncle Roy? They gotta show Uncle Roy and then Uncle Roy. The most indefensible sketch probably in the history of the show. But it was the 70s and shit happens. The lecherous babysitter trying to creep on Gilda, Radner and Lyn. But they went through all of it, and I loved it because it's like, you know what? Comedy changes the definition of what's funny and what isn't funny changes. It's not. You can't go back retroactively and litigate it. This was stuff that ran.

[Jim Miller]

And not only that, but it's incredibly shrewd because for all of you thinking that we're going to hide from it and you can go and write about it and take us to task for it, oh, we're going to own it. We'll own it right now. Here you go. And with perfect context, I thought it was the shrewdest part of the entire show.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Debbie Downer, which I think has belatedly become one of the most famous sketches in the history of the show, it was funny when it happened, but I think as the years have passed, it's one of the Go to ones people mention.

[Jim Miller]

I think there are Debbie Downer societies. I mean therapy. There are people that literally talk about it about themselves. They talk about it in therapy. There's a whole big online presence. So, you know, I was wondering whether or not Rachel and Will were going to do the lovers sketch and Will was going to start cracking somebody up underneath the hot tub, which would have been terrific. But that also is logistically difficult.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have. If they had asked me, I would have had Neil diamond storytellers with James Brown and just brought Eddie and Will together and just had them do. I just think that would have gotten the biggest wow for me out of basically anything they could have done if they had just done those two together.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah, I think the one thing that might have worked against that is that requires another level of knowledge on the show just because it's not in the zeitgeist as prominently as some of these other ones or as more as recently. By the way, how about Sabrina?

[Bill Simmons]

But that doesn't help the Lawrence Welk sketch. I mean, Lawrence Welk isn't in there. That's the thing. If you're going to do Lawrence Welk, I would have rather. Yeah. Anyway, what were you going to say?

[Jim Miller]

But how about Sabrina Carpenter's line to Paul Simon?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh my God, my parents.

[Jim Miller]

That set that one line. Like I think it shocked the audience and it set the tone for the whole night because you're going to see a bunch of people in their 70s and 80s.

[Bill Simmons]

So there's some Lauren stuff with this. You know, there's five years where he's not on the show and Ebersol is running the show and that's been fraught. Yeah. Jean Dominion initially. She gets fired, Ebersol takes over. You've written about this a ton. It's been talked about a ton. It's always been a little icy with the two of them. But credit dating back to 75. It was notable to me that Eddie was really the only person from that five year run that was prominently involved in anything. Like there was no Piscopo at all. Julie Lee Dreyfus was in the Q and A. And that's was a show that just kind of pretended those five years didn't. Billy Crystal wasn't in anything. Martin Short was in it. But Martin Short has become kind of an honorary host slash cast member along the lines of Steve Martin. But he was a big part of that season 10 cast. But for the most part he pretends that doesn't happen those five years.

[Jim Miller]

And Billy Crystal was in the Audience, Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Never went to him.

[Jim Miller]

Could have been used. Could have been used.

[Bill Simmons]

Not used at all for. For anything.

[Jim Miller]

Without a doubt. I mean, listen. And given what happened to Billy on the very first snl, where he and his manager stormed out because he wasn't going to get enough time, that's a complicated history. Billy Crystal and SNL.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Jim Miller]

Well, then all the way through 50.

[Bill Simmons]

The cast after Carvey, not there. Hartman not with us, sadly. Same with Jan Hooks. And Myers was really the only one. They went to Lovitz pretty briefly, but the show is a little geared toward those last. Basically last 30 years. The other notable thing to me, the last 10 years of cast members, Pete Davidson, Bo Nang, they got attention. Marcelo got in on one of those sketches, because I think out of anyone on the new cast, he seems to be the one they think they might have hit, might have struck oil on a little bit. But other than that, that show was not a big win for the current cast, which I think was different from SNL 40, when the current cast was a little more involved.

[Jim Miller]

Well, one of the things you and I have talked about before is that over recent years, you don't have a lot of reoccurring sketches, reoccurring characters that you can draw back on. And so that's when it really comes to haunt you, because you can't all of a sudden. It's not like the cheerleaders were from the past 10 years, so you throw them up or. Yeah, I guess we could go back to the Californians, but you can't do the Californians without hater. Right. You know, they were in a box. But I think that's part of what was going on. Look, Davidson, maybe. Maybe you'll argue with me on this, but Davidson isn't there because of what he did on snl. He's there because he became a cultural force with his, you know, many popular.

[Bill Simmons]

With his social game. Yeah, he basically became a Weekend Update guy, you know, and it wasn't like he was never like, let's build all the sketches around him like you would with Will Ferrell, somebody like that.

[Jim Miller]

No, I think the show's in a weird place if you ever get a moment. Pete's first show appearance was on Update, and he crushed.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he did it great.

[Jim Miller]

And so you think, whoa, wait a second. And then, you know, it just. It didn't. It didn't happen. I mean, I'm not saying he's not successful, but we know most people know Pete Davidson because of the incredible Runway of beautiful, popular women. He Dated rather than what he did on the show.

[Bill Simmons]

And a couple movies, too. So the Lauren piece of this. I'm assuming there's not going to be an SNL 60 with Lorne Michaels. That would be insane. People always thought, well, he could show up for it. He could show up for it. No, but he's not going to be producing. Last night he was sitting in an aisle seat like three, four rows up. So he wasn't producing it. He actually seemed like he was an audience member for it. I'm sure he decided every sketch and who was going to be there and who was going to sit where. But it felt like he was a little more detached than he was. Probably Friday night, too.

[Jim Miller]

He was. Friday night. He was, you know, he had a great seat at Radio City. Yeah, he sat there the whole time. I mean, look, they had last night, they had, they had everybody come in. They had some of the top notch. The varsity was in the writers room. Yes, they went over that. And, and, and Lauren was very, very, very involved. And I think he geared it so we could actually, God forbid, not be under the bleachers, sit in a seat and enjoy it.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So what happens now to Lauren? What's your prediction?

[Jim Miller]

I think he's going to stay. I think he's going to stay. I mean, whether or not there's an emeritus attached to him or not. I mean, but right now he's already cut back on his schedule, so he's not in every single day and night like he used to be. And I think that what you probably see is more people. It will be interesting to see, though. I mean, like, obviously, if Tina or Seth comes back to the show, Lauren's emeritus. Right. Lauren is by definition going to be saying, I'm handing over the reins. But without that, it'll be interesting to see what happens next season. Originally, he had said he would be. He'd like to make it to 50 and then walk away, but I don't think he. He said, I don't think I'm done. I don't think I'm done.

[Bill Simmons]

Were you surprised a Chevy Chase not featured in anything? Was that because of physical health or something else?

[Jim Miller]

I think it falls under the rubric of something else.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. That's it? That's all you got?

[Jim Miller]

Well, Friday night, Jimmy Fallon did something very nice, which was. It may have been a commercial break or something, but he leaned down and he said, ladies and gentlemen, I haven't watched the air copy yet, so maybe it was on air. Ladies and gentlemen, Chevy Chase. And Chevy stood up and took a big bow and like, was expecting a big hand. And I don't want to diss him, but it wasn't huge. And I think that the powers that be were aware of that and felt like maybe that wouldn't happen if he was part of the show.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting. Well, he certainly has burned some bridges over the years, I think.

[Jim Miller]

Is he napalmed him?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's safe to say. Yeah. So that one was weird. And Then the Conan O'Brien not involved last night. Is that, Is that still going to the. When he took the Tonight show and didn't. That didn't include Lauren and his version of tonight's show, which people have always said that was one of the reasons Leno was able to kind of double cross him and try to get the show back, because he wasn't protected by Lauren. I don't know. Where does that stand?

[Jim Miller]

I don't think, I don't think Conan would be that petty. In fact, I'd like to give him a get out of jail free card in the sense that two weeks from last night, he's hosting the Oscars and it's just like, I, I can't. I don't know. I mean, very few people would be going to be hosting the Oscars and then rehearsing.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not talking about Conan be petty. I'm talking about, is there still like some Lauren pettiness with that whole thing? Because I had always thought there was. No, no. Okay.

[Jim Miller]

No. You know, I think Lauren is at the point now where he's like, really too powerful, too rich, too everything. Like, there's very few. Like, who's he petty with? I mean, like, that's true.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a victory lap.

[Jim Miller]

He's declared victory. If you're petty, that means that you're in the trenches fighting with somebody. And there's no one that's gonna fight with Lauren who's got. I mean, unless it's like Chera, Madonna, who's got even one name to mention, like he's gonna, he's gonna be like in a. I don't know. With Conan? No, I don't think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you agree with the David Stern theory with Lauren that I think we've talked about before, about the moment you give up this job, you give up this power and influence, that's just never gonna be the same. And that's one of the reasons you keep it for as long as you can? Everyone's returning your call the moment you call them.

[Jim Miller]

I always thought that theory said more about David talking to himself than him giving advice to others because he was so crestfallen. I mean, you must have seen him when Adam took over. He was like.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Jim Miller]

Whereas, like, he was just a man without an island. And I think Lauren, look, Lauren is always going to have agency and the keys to 8h, no matter what. Even if he retires, he can go back there and do whatever he wants. And he's got a million other projects, so I don't think Lauren's going to. I don't think people are going to stop calling Lauren. The cast may stop worrying about whether he loves him or not, but that's about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Amazing relationship. All right, so your final grade sounds like it was like an A minus.

[Jim Miller]

I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Jim Miller]

It's good to see, you know, I mean, look, whatever, I, again, I miss Bill Hader. And certainly, I mean, every time you have one of these shows, I mean, the idea that Belushi killed Phil and now Norm and Jan Hooks, I mean, you can go on the list.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jim Miller]

It really, it really makes it. Because they die too young.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jim Miller]

I mean, and Chris Farley, I mean, how ironic is it that Belushi was Chris Farley's hero? He tried on his clothes when he got to the show and then he winds up dying at 33, the same age that John was when he died. I mean, there's just, it's just, you know, all the sadness surrounding the show is really sad.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we go, any predictions for the second half of the decade for espn? Another place you wrote a book about?

[Jim Miller]

Well, we'll see what happens this fall. Right? I mean, it's a, that's, it's one of the big chapters in ESPN's life, going direct to consumer. And let's see how far out, how much they piss off the cable operators. Whether. What, what are they going to charge? I mean, that is, That's a wild calculation. I mean, Jimmy's done his job. He made nice with the NFL. They got, they got the NBA. Maybe they'll improve the NBA shoulder programming, but. I know you're dubious about that, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they've had it for the last, I don't know, two plus decades. How's it going to be different this, with this contract? It's going to be the same crap.

[Jim Miller]

It's always a work in progress.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like it's just getting louder and dumber, the coverage around it.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah, but this, this is going to be different now. Direct to consumer. And look, when I wrote that book, it was 100 million homes. Now it's what, 67. And you times that times $8 a month. You're talking about real money. If you're Disney, you can't buy Pixar, you can't buy Marvel. You can't do any of that with the current financial equation. So it's going to be really interesting to see what happens in the fall when they decide to price that out and see how many people follow them.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you feel from people working there? Happy to be working there. Standpoint in 2025 because you always have a good vibe of, I think most of workplace happiness.

[Jim Miller]

I think most of the people I talked to Freud had one of his definitions of maturity is the ability to handle ambiguity. So I think there are a lot of people becoming mature or else they're drinking themselves silly on the weekends because it used to be, you know, this. I mean, particularly because ESPN's in Bristol, Connecticut. You got to move your ass up to central Connecticut. You put your kids in school. Everybody's there for 25, 30 years. I mean, if you're at CBS Sports and you don't like it or you get recruited to NBC, jump somewhere across town. So a lot of people out there for 25, 30 years, it wasn't. Those jobs aren't as safe as they used to be. And a lot of people were having a very difficult time, particularly since some real legends were laid off, you know, during these layoffs. So I think there's a level of insecurity, a palpable level of insecurity, Bill, that's never been there before.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what I'm hearing as well. Hbo, another place that you wrote a book about. New series coming out March 3rd, Celtic City, 9 parts Celtics docu series. It's really good. But wait, how are you feeling about HBO these days in the Time Warner empire?

[Jim Miller]

I think there's a branding issue with the whole universe that really hurt hbo. This idea that, I mean, like those three letters are worth just as much in terms of currency and pedigree than any three level letters there are in the ecosystem. And they dialed back on it. And I think Casey Voice has done the Lord's work. He is without a doubt one of the best creative executives in the business today. I wish they had more money. I wish they, I mean, I know that they could have done unbelievable things if they had more money, which wasn't always the case. But I think that they, you know, the brand has really lost a lot of its halo, not because it's turning out shit, but because it's gotten messed up in this whole Discovery, plus hbo, plus Max and this and that. It was HBO Go that. It was. I mean, it's a lot to go through for a brand, and even though they have some great people working there, I just. I think they deserve better.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think with the Max app, like, it just shouldn't be that hard to find the best shows HBO's ever done or the new shows. You feel like you're wading through all these different choices, and sometimes somebody's going on there, and, like, I just want to watch Sex and the City.

[Jim Miller]

And I feel like there's a lot of politics involved with that, with that homepage. I mean, look at Netflix. It's almost like Darwinian. It's survival of the finish, but it's because you got that algorithm and, like, don't mess around with it, man. We know what we're doing. But with Max, it's, like, subjective. It's like, wait a second, like. And there's this whole big thing with Entourage, you know, where is that? I mean, been deep six, too, and you can't find this. You can't find that. It's really complicated on that Max homepage.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the best way to fight off any sort of weirdness is to just keep putting out good stuff, which it seems like they had to push a lot of stuff to 2025, and it seems like they are going to have a bunch of good content this year. And the question will be, how can they push it in the Max app the best possible way.

[Jim Miller]

Yeah. Good luck with the Celtics, man. That's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks. It was a lot of time. Anything else you're working on before we go? Got a secret projects you want to tell us about?

[Jim Miller]

No, just writing. Writing. Writing.

[Bill Simmons]

What are you writing? Stuff. Things?

[Jim Miller]

Yeah. Just stuff. Yeah, I'm writing stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

New project?

[Jim Miller]

Couple new ones, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, all right. Mysterious Jim Miller, thanks for your Sno50 recap. Good to see you, as always.

[Jim Miller]

Hey, thanks for having me, man.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. Thanks to Van Lathan and Jim Miller. Thanks to Kyle and Sarudi and Gahal. As always, you can watch clips and videos from this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch this as a video podcast on Spotify. I hope you did. We will be coming back on Thursday, actually, after the big Austin live show. We're going to run that on this feed. It's going to be good, I promise. And don't forget, new Rewatch was coming Monday night. Wayne's World. So I will see you on Thursday.

[Van Lathan]

He lives with him on the Wayside.