An NBA Fake-Trade Fiesta With Kevin O’Connor

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – “An NBA Fake-Trade Fiesta With Kevin O’Connor”

Introduction

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, released on January 23, 2025, Bill Simmons welcomes his longtime friend and former Ringer colleague, Kevin O’Connor, now with Yahoo. The duo dives deep into the tumultuous NBA trade season, analyzing team performances, potential trades, and the implications of fake trades on the league's landscape.

Team Analysis and Trade Discussions

1. Dallas Nuggets’ Injury Woes and Trade Possibilities

Bill Simmons kicks off the discussion by spotlighting the Dallas Nuggets' precarious situation due to key injuries. "The Lively injury is a foot injury, and they're saying out two to three months. I always feel like they're not being honest about how long the timetable is" (00:02). This setback pushes Dallas into a playoff hopeful slot, yet uncertainties loom regarding Luka’s health and the depth of their roster.

Kevin O’Connor adds, “With Lively out, they might pursue a switchable big like Gafford to add versatility” (05:22). However, the challenge remains in balancing the roster once Lively returns, potentially constraining their flexibility.

2. Denver Nuggets: Chemistry Between Jokic and Westbrook

The conversation shifts to the Denver Nuggets, where Bill notes the improbable yet effective partnership between Nikola Jokic and Russell Westbrook. "It's the most improbable relationship we've had in the NBA this decade. Jokic and Westbrook somehow, like, joining forces in a positive way" (07:04). Despite past skepticism about their collaboration, their chemistry on the court has revitalized Denver's contention status.

Kevin reflects, “If Jokic can maintain his elite play, Denver stands as a true contender alongside OKC” (06:45). The duo acknowledges Denver’s resurgence, emphasizing Jokic's integral role and the team's strategic depth.

3. Philadelphia 76ers: Navigating Paul George and Tobias Harris

The Philadelphia 76ers' struggles with Paul George's declining performance and Tobias Harris's role come under scrutiny. Bill expresses concern, “Paul George’s decline is beginning, and if Embiid's healthy come April, it still might not be enough” (10:31). The Sixers face tough decisions on whether to push for playoff contention or prioritize future assets.

Kevin argues, “If Embiid is healthy, Philadelphia remains competitive, but they can't tank the season” (11:06). The discussion highlights the delicate balance Philadelphia must maintain between immediate competitiveness and long-term strategy.

4. New Orleans Pelicans: Managing CJ McCollum and Zion Williamson

New Orleans Pelicans are analyzed for their potential trades involving CJ McCollum and Zion Williamson. Bill muses, “What do you do if you’re running New Orleans? Maybe keep things together because you’re going to have a lottery pick anyway” (17:38). The Pelicans grapple with optimizing their roster while contending with Zion’s health and the team’s overall performance.

Kevin adds, “Trading CJ McCollum would be top of my list for New Orleans, aside from Ingram” (16:26). The focus is on shedding underperforming assets to streamline the team for future success.

5. Los Angeles Lakers: LeBron James and Anthony Davis Trade Speculations

A significant portion of the podcast delves into the Los Angeles Lakers' predicament with aging superstars LeBron James and Anthony Davis. Bill provocatively suggests, “We're going to zag the other way. We're going to trade Anthony Davis to the Golden State Warriors” (68:57). He argues that the Lakers should stop mortgaging their future for aging talent and reset their roster for long-term viability.

Kevin contemplates the feasibility, “Draymond’s still a really good defender, but trading Davis presents salary and roster challenges” (69:22). The complexity of trading high-profile players like Davis is dissected, emphasizing the financial and strategic hurdles involved.

6. Fake Trade Proposals

Bill and Kevin engage in a playful yet insightful "fake trade fiesta," proposing hypothetical trades and analyzing their potential outcomes.

• Bradley Beal for Paul George: Bill posits a straight swap, only to acknowledge immediate refusals due to trade clauses. “Bradley Beal says no” (34:29).

• Three-Team Trade Involving Jimmy Butler, Beal, and the Bucks: Kevin outlines a complex five-way deal, aiming to redistribute talent and salaries effectively. “Jimmy Butler five way... Bucks get Zach Levine” (26:17).

• Anthony Davis to Golden State Warriors: Bill imagines trading Davis for Draymond Green and other assets, challenging the realistic likelihood but highlighting the dramatic implications. “We're trading Anthony Davis to the Golden State Warriors” (68:57).

These fake trades serve as thought experiments to explore team strategies, salary caps, and player dynamics, offering listeners a creative lens through which to view potential real-world moves.

7. Other Team Discussions

The podcast also touches upon various other teams and players:

• Detroit Pistons and Cam Johnson: Bill suggests trading Cam Johnson to the Pistons for Isaac Okoro and a rookie, enhancing Detroit's roster with Johnson's shooting prowess (48:49).

• Orlando Magic and Anthony Simon: A hypothetical trade involves Anthony Simon moving to Portland, aiming to upgrade the Magic's guard depth while Portland gains future picks and salary relief (45:09).

• New York Knicks and Mitchell Robinson: Discussions revolve around trading Mitchell Robinson for prospective centers like Walker Kessler, emphasizing the Knicks' need for rim protection (50:09).

Final Analysis

As the episode draws to a close, Bill and Kevin assess the landscape of the NBA playoffs:

• Western Conference: Emphasis on Denver Nuggets’ potential and OKC’s resilience, with a nod to Houston and Memphis as strong contenders.

• Eastern Conference: Concerns about Milwaukee Bucks and Philadelphia 76ers, while Boston Celtics remain a wildcard despite defensive lapses.

Bill concludes, “The playoffs will come down to team chemistry and clutch performances” (83:08), underscoring the unpredictable nature of postseason basketball.

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive and dynamic exploration of the NBA's trade season, blending strategic analysis with imaginative trade scenarios. Bill Simmons and Kevin O’Connor provide listeners with deep insights into team strategies, player performances, and the intricate dance of trades that shape the league's competitive landscape. Whether you’re a casual fan or a dedicated follower, this discussion equips you with a nuanced understanding of the current NBA milieu.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: “I never trust feet injuries. I always feel like they're not being honest about how long the timetable is” (00:02).

• Kevin O'Connor: “With Lively out, they might pursue a switchable big like Gafford to add versatility” (05:22).

• Bill Simmons: “We're going to zag the other way. We're going to trade Anthony Davis to the Golden State Warriors” (68:57).

• Kevin O'Connor: “Trading CJ McCollum would be top of my list for New Orleans, aside from Ingram” (16:26).

• Bill Simmons: “Bradley Beal says no” (34:29).

• Kevin O'Connor: “If Embiid is healthy, Philadelphia remains competitive, but they can't tank the season” (11:06).

Timestamp References:

All timestamps correspond to moments within the provided transcript, ensuring accurate attribution and context for each quoted statement.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Coming up, it's fake trade season. Let's go. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. You sign up for something, forget about it after the trial period ends. Then you're charged month after month after month. The subscriptions are there, but you're not using them. In fact, I just learned that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. Thanks to Rocket Money, you can see all your subscriptions in one place. Cancel the ones you're not using anymore. Now you're saving money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. You have so many of these monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place. Know exactly where your money is going. For ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket money over 5 million users. They've saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year. When using all the app's premium features, cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Bill today. That's RocketMoney.com Bill this episode is brought to you by Viori. I love sports. I know you do, too. I also know that lots of you exercise. But if you're like me and my wife, the beloved sports galaxy, you're sick and tired of ugly, uncomfortable workout gear. Especially. You know, I do a lot of walking. I walk around la. I make calls. I listen to podcasts. Here are two words that will change everything. Viori clothing. A line of activewear that is unbelievable. The best thing about Viori is you can lounge around in it, you can work out in it, you can go outside, you can go shopping down in your local wherever, and you never feel like you're either underdressed or overdressed. You're just comfortable. You can wear it. When you're training, traveling, lounging around the house, go get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet. Here's the deal. Our listeners get 20% off their first purchase at vuori.comsimmons Once again, V U O R I.comsimmons we're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatch. On Monday night. We did a Rewatchables mailbag. I had a great time. Thanks to everybody who sent in emails. We came up with new categories. A couple theme months slightly tweaked the structure of the show had Some laughs. It was me and Chris Ryan and producer Craig Horlbeck. If you want to watch that, it is on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. If you want to watch anything from this podcast, the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We did not do a podcast Tuesday night. Making up for it today with a special basketball podcast. Our old friend Kevin O'Connor is coming in. We're going to talk about a bunch of teams that are in trouble. We're going to talk about fake trades, what's realistic, what's not. Where are people like Jimmy Butler going? Could there be a surprise? The Trade deadline is February 6th. We're breaking all of it down. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is 4:00 Pacific Time. There's reasons for that, which I'll get to. But very excited to have Kevin O'Connor here. You might remember him from many, many, many years at the ringer. He is now at Yahoo. We have not done a podcast during this basketball season. What better time KOC than fake trade season for us to reunite?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Best time of the year, Bill. And I have to say, you know, I called you on the phone when I left for Yahoo, but I have to thank you for everything, you know, those eight years in the ringer publicly. I have to. I have to.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're. We were always good.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes, of course.

[Bill Simmons]

So, unfortunately, we had to tape this a little late on Wednesday because I was flying back from Boston this morning, and then there was a WI Fi issue on the plane. And I'm like, is this going to work out? Am I going to be able to do a podcast day? The WI Fi miraculously came back. And then I was on my iPad for hours making fake trades. And I think a couple times the lady next to me was like, what's this guy doing? What is this trade machine that he has? But before we. We do that, a bunch of teams I want to hit just big picture that kind of relate to this in some ways. Biggest one, Dallas. I think Dallas is in real trouble now. This lively injury, it's a foot injury, and they're saying out two to three months. And as I've said a million times, I never trust feet injuries. I always feel like they're not being honest about how long the timetable is, because I'm not sure they know. And I always go, worst case scenario, three months takes us into the playoffs. It takes us into round one. And on top of it, Lucas hurt. And I just. I thought Dallas was going to be there in the end. This is the first time I got worried.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, I think with this Lively injury, there's been some trickling out for a few days that like, oh, maybe they're going to go after a center. But I'm like, huh, maybe they want to just have some versatility in the front court. But now that we know about the injury, it completely explains why going for a center here. And so my question is, what type of center are they going to go for? They're going to go for another, you know, lob vertical guy like Lively, like Gafford. But if you add a third guy like that and then Lively comes back, you can't.

[Bill Simmons]

Right Then what then what's your rock sense?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, exactly. So I wonder if maybe for them they still go after, you know, a pick and pop big or a switchable big, somebody like that to give them some front court versatility. But Gaffer looked damn good and the first half of their game on Sunday. So like Gaffer, we know he can step his play up. So I wouldn't say I don't think I go as far as you to say that they're screwed, but it is going to be a lot dependent on what they do to fill that center gap because it can't just be Gafford. That's all they have now.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they're screwed in this respect. Right now they're seventh in the West. They're 23 and 20. Doesn't look like Lucas coming back until the All Star break. There's teams that are just settled in way ahead of them now. The top four, Oklahoma, Houston, Memphis, Denver. I just don't think they're catching any of those teams, especially with the way Denver's playing. So now you're looking at, I don't have home court advantage any round. I don't know when Lavley's coming back. They also made a lot of trades already. They don't have like a shitload of assets. You know, they've already made a lot of their moves and they would have to dip into the clay, PJ Washington, like that kind of group to improve, whatever they need to improve. So I'm sure their game plan is just going to be we're probably going to be in that 7 to 10 range. Let's hope Lavley comes back. Let's hope Luka gets going. We'll be there in the end, but pretty tough, man, if you're in those playing games and then you're on the road every round. We haven't really seen. We haven't seen a lot of success with that recipe, Koch.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, even with a healthy Lively, I'm curious, like, do you still view them as, like, upper tier in the Western Conference? Right on the same level as Denver, who's really come along lately, Like Russell Westbrook. You've got to give the dude credit. He is playing at the best level that he has in years. Jamal Murray getting along better now.

[Bill Simmons]

Danny Chow wrote about it for us. It's the most improbable relationship we've had in the NBA this decade. Jokic and Westbrook somehow, like, joining forces in a positive way. I don't understand it.

[Kevin O'Connor]

It's kind of crazy. Like with Russ, it didn't work. With LeBron, it works sometimes with the Clippers, but not all the time. It didn't end in one of their.

[Bill Simmons]

Playoffs and not at the end.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, and then with Jokic, it's like you have Jokic after the game talking about, like, we could read each other's minds. Like, there is some chemistry that they have. It feels like every other game, once it's Jokic in Westbrook, then it's Jokic and Murray, then it's Jokic and mpj. It's always a different connection, like their. Their offense. Sometimes I felt like it got a bit Dr. Like sometimes it was always Jokic, Murray, end of game situations. But there's variety. Now that makes me think, wait a minute, is Denver actually just the only true contender besides OKC in the Western Conference? Are they actually the team that could take them down? Because I'm not. I'm not totally sold on Dallas anyway. I think they have too many holes. I'm still worried about Luca's health. I mean, when you're coming back post All Star break, right? That type of injury, it's. That's the type of thing they can get hurt again. And Kyrie in and out still as well. A lot of questions there with them, even prior to Lively, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but here the flip side of this is why it was stupid to give up on Denver a month ago. If you have one of the best six players in the league, you just have to be taken serious in the playoffs. So the question for me is, can he get back to the right shape? When can Lively come back? Can they sneak out? Like, if they're playing Houston in round one at 2 7, they could beat Houston. I don't know if Houston has another gear, so I'm sure they're not totally panicking yet, but it's not great, you know, and you think, like, Luke is 26 now. They made the finals last year. They really went all in on this season, and Oklahoma City kind of took their spot. But, yeah, I'm not. I'm not a full level panic. I don't like the fact that they're not going to have home court any round, every round. And I also don't know what the trade move is. So next one is Philly, who is borderline shut it down territory. But you also look at the east and it's like, yeah, they could make the playing game. And what if they have those guys in mid April and they're all healthy? And I don't really know what the answer is, but the big thing is their first pick is top six protected, which everybody's been talking about all week. And I thought about how OKC gets that pick, right, if it's like seventh in a really good draft that I'm sure you've been become fascinated by. This is the Sam Presti revenge on Daryl Morey, the James Harden trade, 2012, right? And it became this thing that became this curse over okc, and they never got to the finals. And Darrell kind of made his career in a lot of ways. The flip side of this, OKC gets this pick because Philly has to dump Al Horford, right? And now this pick is paralyzing Philly with their decisions. Because you maybe want to just throw away the season, and yet you can if Embiid is going to be healthy in two weeks. So what do you do if you're.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Philly, I don't think you can throw away the season. You can't. Like, like you said with Embiid, if he's healthy, they've been good after he got back in December. Granted, he's missed a lot of time since then, but if Embiid's healthy, you know, you're competitive. The problem is the fact that you get Paul George and you're saying, well, he's just going to be better than Tobias Harris. He's going to be way better than Harris. It has been for us. And then he looks like Tobias Harris for you. And so if Paul George is actually.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that an insult to Tobias Harris? I'm not sure.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, it is, because Tobias Harris is very average, below average with the Sixers, and he's been pretty good with the Pistons.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but I'm saying is Tobias Harris listen to this and be like, yo, I've been better than Paul George. At least I played him.

[Kevin O'Connor]

That would be fair. If he did say that, he's at least been on the court. But With Paul George, he just looks like a complete shell of his former self. So if the Paul George decline is beginning and this isn't just an off year, at 35, 36 years old, whatever he is, you have to take advantage of these years. Especially if, like Embiid is healthy come April and you sneak in as the seven or the eight seed, you can't win.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no way they're gonna be the 7 or the 8 seed. They're gonna be 9 or 10, but they could still sneak in because they'd have to win two playing games.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, that's what I mean. If they win the two playing games and they sneak in in that case and there's the seven or eight, like you gotta. You have to go for that possibility. You can't completely tank out here. But if he doesn't come back, moving up in the lottery is your silver lining here. For Philadelphia, that, that. But I don't think you can tank for that. It's not worth doing that. You at least have to go for it. Otherwise it's another year wasted. And for Daryl Morey in the front office as well, and Nick Nurse as head coach, that could mean your job too. If they do miss the playoffs and if next year they go into things and it's not better, you might not get another job anytime soon. So I don't think they have much of a choice but to go for it.

[Bill Simmons]

Now we have hit fall guy range and it's going to be the Nurse or Daryl, and I don't know which one it's going to be, but we're very close at this point.

[Kevin O'Connor]

And those guys don't play hard for Nurse at all.

[Bill Simmons]

But no, they don't seem like they. It just. We've seen this happen over the course of the NBA history. Like, Don Nelson was a great coach. He took over the Ewing Knicks at one point in the mid-90s, and I think he lasted like 45 games. It just didn't work. I don't know if it's that bad for them, but when you don't have two of your best three guys basically never playing, you know, they had this huge stretch last week. It was like four and five against all good teams. And Embiid missed all the games. And then he met and then they were like, he's probably out at least another week. If you look at their schedule, any game where he would come back, it's a good team. There's like always like a Boston or a Cleveland. There's some somebody on there. And I just, I don't think he's going to come back until he's healthy. I think, I don't think he wants to come back at his ass kicked. So I don't know if you're Nick Durst, what do you do on that? But the Paul George piece is the shocking thing. I guess we should have known he's been in the league a while, that it was possible, but I don't know, he was always hit or miss, but he hit and he, he's not hitting anymore. There's. It's more misses or I forgot you were out there than hits.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, I mean at the least, at a minimum, he was a far better spot up shooter than Tobias Harris. Like he was always above 40% from 3 to buy a terrace was very streaky and consistent and lower volume this year. Paul George, only 35% from 3 has not been a knockdown guy on top of, you know, just stinking it up. End of game situations, losing control of the ball in the final minutes of games, real careless turnovers. And the defense is not at a lockdown level for that matter either. So like the things that you thought, at a minimum we're getting elite defender and knockdown shooter who can sometimes go off. You're not even getting the role player stuff from him right now. And so that's where your Philadelphia, if he's not producing, I don't know if there's an answer for you to solve that at all with this roster. You were banking on Paul George. You waited for him in free agency. That's what the whole plan was, was to go out and get Paul George for seven months. This was the plan. So if he's not working out, nobody's going to take him.

[Bill Simmons]

For that matter, who do you think's the most relieved? Orlando, the Clippers. I wonder who else would have been in the mix on that.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Well, Golden State was in the mix for Paul George too.

[Bill Simmons]

Golden State. Oh yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

But they were trying. Can you be relieved? If you're them though, you're super average this year.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

You're five. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So we agree.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Philly needs to use those picks though. They have four tradable picks. They need to use those, I'd say.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you use McCain who's out for the year?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I don't know. He looks pretty damn good, bill, long.

[Bill Simmons]

Term, McCain, Maxey is your backcourt. Is that a backcourt that makes sense to you from a basketball standpoint?

[Kevin O'Connor]

It's too small.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's too small.

[Kevin O'Connor]

But I think McCain's value would only go up to me. I mean, I think like everybody talks about Jimmy Butler as a, as a guy to Phoenix and you know, all these other teams. Nobody ever mentions Philly. What if Philly offered three firsts with Paul George to reunite Jimmy Butler with Joel Embiid? Maybe you don't do that if you're Philly. Maybe you keep your tradable picks and go elsewhere. But I'm just throwing the idea out there. And maybe Miami rolls the dice with Paul George as a longer term salary.

[Bill Simmons]

I have Paul George coming up later when we get to the fake trade section of this podcast because it's a fascinating topic. So we agree, Philly's not shutting it down. They still have a chance to be a 9 or a 10 seed if they can get all those guys healthy for two months. That's still the plan. If I'm Daryl Morey, like that's a better chance than keeping my fingers crossed in the lottery. Okay, next one. New Orleans is in what the fuck land where they suck. But now that all their guys are back, they're actually like pretty solid and really talented. And Trey Murphy's been playing great and they might be too talented to be a full tank team a la Brooklyn and teams like that, they have some good trade assets. Ingram as an expiring is hurt right now. Zion. Year to year, he can get out CJ McCollum. Overpriced but reasonable for somebody who needs a scoring something. And then I guess, Murray, their roster doesn't really make sense. I don't even know what the move is. What do they do? What do you do if you're running New Orleans?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I think you just keep it going. Honestly, I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily tank it out unless you're getting a really, really good deal from a column. I think trading CJ McCollum would definitely be top of my list, aside from the obvious. Ingram.

[Bill Simmons]

But now he's going to be upset at me again because he thinks I always throw him in. Trade rumors.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, nobody's wanted Ingram for a.

[Bill Simmons]

Year and a half, especially now that he's hurt. Yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. Is that going to change in the next three weeks here with McCollum at least he has had some banger performances as of late. He's looked healthy. He looks very good for them right now. So maybe you're trading McCollum. The issue is the fact that he's a tough guy to trade. At $33 million this year, he's still a smaller, smaller guard. So for New Orleans, part Part of me, Bill, looks at this as a year in which your horrible start with Zion missing time keeps you in the lottery. It's going to keep you having good draft odds. So if you do and they have the Lakers game. Yes. So if you win towards the end of the season, maybe you actually have some clarity on what you want to do heading into the summer. So I'm not totally against keeping things together because you're going to have a lottery pick anyway. You're not going to get into the play in. You're too far back right now. So I'm okay with keeping things together right now. And if Zion is, you know, back to prime Zion for the whole rest of the season, I think that maybe gives you, you know, an idea of what you want to do in the summer. If you're the Pelicans versus dumping things right now just for slightly higher odds.

[Bill Simmons]

You just stumbled into the answer. These next two months are about building back Zion up as a genuine asset and then trying to get out of that. Get out of that situation as fast as you can.

[Kevin O'Connor]

So you're still ejecting from the Zion situation?

[Bill Simmons]

I am. No matter what, he's healthy for two months. That trade, trade, when the value is high, there are 11 wins or 11 losses behind Phoenix for the 10 seeds.

[Kevin O'Connor]

That's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

So there's no scenario where they catch fire. Unfortunately. One of the things about trading McCollum is then you could play Jordan Hawkins more. It's weird. They're deep, but they also have a terrible record. They make no sense as. As a team of assets. Anyway. Next one. I didn't know it was going to be today. What's today's date? January 22nd. I thought it was going to be after the Celtics game the next day when we celebrated the annual Lakers holiday passive aggressive trade day. When some report comes out that LeBron and AD or just LeBron aren't happy with the roster. It happened today. It was January 22nd. I wish I had had FanDuel put odds with all the different days in January when it was going to happen, but it happened today. LeBron and AD apparently really want them to improve the roster. They're not that happy with it. I don't know what the move is, Koc. When you're paying those two guys 100 plus million dollars a year and you have Reaves, your roster's pretty good. And maybe look in the mirror a little bit. And I went through everybody. If it's Rui and Vanderbilt and Vincent and two firsts. I don't even know what you're getting, who's available if It's a top 50 player. Nobody wants to trade a top 50 player. So you're looking at people like Zach Levine and if they got Zach Levine, I just don't think they're a contender in the West. They would have the same problems they have anywhere where they can't guard anybody. I would never. Reaves is a hang up for me. If somebody called About Reeves at 12 million a year, it's like, yeah, I'm sure you do want Austin Reeves. Fuck off. Hang up. I don't know what the move is for them. I don't know how they're a title contender and I have some ideas zagging the other way. But what do you think if you're.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Trying to add, which I don't think they're going to go the other way, Walker Kessler as a center, try to go get him from Utah, then you can play two big lineups.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you winning four rounds if you make a Walker Kessler trade?

[Kevin O'Connor]

No, just, just one of the names. You, you can trade two picks, you can trade multiple swaps. You do have some tradable salaries, so maybe that's one of the guys you go for. And I don't know if you and I feel the same way about this guy Bill, but I think everything Zach Levine has done this year, forget about that.

[Bill Simmons]

No, we're aligned on that.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Okay, so like to me, like if you're able to put a package together for Zach Levine and it's a tough deal, it probably have to be a three way. But if you go get Zach Levine and add him to the bunch with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, if you're able to go get a five like Walker Kessler, you have Dorian, Finney, Smith already, you have Austin Reaves, like suddenly you have like a really good top six, top seven with a lot of dynamic scoring ability, versatility on defense, different lineup configurations that you can play. So I think the Lakers should be adding. They should try to trade their 29 and 31. They should try to trade their swaps. They should try to go for something here.

[Bill Simmons]

If I was a Laker fan, I would be losing my mind at this really. We're going to mortgage basically the next six years so we can fulfill this charade that we're a title contender. What if you chance against Oklahoma City?

[Kevin O'Connor]

What if you slightly protect those picks?

[Bill Simmons]

I wouldn't do it. I would zag the other way. And if Reaves is in a trade, they're just flat out Stupid.

[Kevin O'Connor]

What's the other way? Does that mean trading ad? Trading LeBron?

[Bill Simmons]

I have an ad idea.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they should think about zagging the other way and trading ad. And, you know, it's a really interesting thing to bring up to Laker fans because I think they're grateful they won the title in 2020, but I also feel like they don't want to lose the entire decade trying to pretend that they can win a title with these two guys as their best players, because they can't. You know, and you watch them. First of all, did you see that stat about how their, Their, their record versus what the record actually is? Like how far the expected win rate or whatever that stat is, which backs up what I've watched. Like they've lucked out with some schedule stuff. I don't think they're that good, and I think they know they're not that good. Whatever their record is. You like, they're going to play the Celtics tomorrow night, and LeBron will have his A game, and they're just not good enough defensively at the Celtics play well, granted, the Celtics can go 7 for 50 from 3 and get smoked in a second game back to back, but defensively, they're just not good enough. And I don't know if Walker Kessler is changing that.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah. If you look at the teams in the NBA right now with 23 plus wins, the only two teams with a negative point differential are Magic minus 0.5 and the Lakers minus 2.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Magic lost their two best players for most of the season.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. Yep. And the Lakers, they're the only team in the west top six right now with a negative plus minus on the entire team.

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't see it. I. I would not give away the rest of the future just because LeBron wants a better team. You know, part of it is you insisted on the Anthony Davis trade. You guys won a title for it. You gave away all of these assets. You struck oil with Reaves. That was one of the luckiest things that could have happened to any team to get a guy. Was he undrafted or a second round? He was undrafted, right?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Pretty sure he went undrafted. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then they get him on this crazy contract because he didn't go out and shop himself. So he's like 12 million a year for. That's one of the best contracts in the league. So if you just look at those three things and the role players they have, you would think they would be better than they are, but can't guard anybody. Last team is Miami. So the Butler thing is this is about as bad of a player team situation as we've had in a while. It's also the NBA I grew up with, where stars would just get mad at teams, stars miss planes, you know, even data going into the 2000s, this would happen with people like Vince Carter. I don't know what his trade value is anymore, and I don't think you probably do either. I don't know what he's worth. I can't decide because he can opt in next year. He's such a headache. He's 35, you know, they have to trade him. Why am I offering anything for him?

[Kevin O'Connor]

And he also hasn't done anything since game two of the east finals against the Celtics two years ago in 2023. Like, he was inefficient the rest of that series. Inefficient against Denver. Missed time the last two years for, you know, suspensions, for being a malcontent, for injuries, for age. I don't know, like, what he's actually worth at this point for all those reasons. So I don't even know if I'd want to trade for him. If I'm the Suns, I get the appeal. He's better than Bradley Beal. If you're going to. Obviously they're going to continue trying to play.

[Bill Simmons]

If that's the trade, you're doing that.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. If it's Bradley Beal, you're doing that.

[Bill Simmons]

Bradley Beal for Butler straight up, which would be just an insane trade for Miami to make. I don't know why they would take on an extra year of Bradley Beal.

[Kevin O'Connor]

That's why you have like all these rumors trickling out about how it could be a four or five team trade. Because it's like somebody else would be taking Beal on this situation.

[Bill Simmons]

And I actually figured out what that trade would be. This wasn't one of my fake trades.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I got one too. For this one, I want to come.

[Bill Simmons]

Up with the same thing. But the part that has to be true is A, Beal would want to waive his no trade clause to go to Milwaukee, which I find hard to believe. B, Milwaukee would want Bradley Beal for this year and the next two. So that you just have to, like assume that that might be true. I don't think it is.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Doesn't have to be the Bucks for Beal.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm just. The trade I came up with was Butler of the Suns, Beal to the Bucks. Miami gets Chris Middleton, Steven Adams from Houston, and Cam Whitmore from Houston. And Houston gets Brooke Lopez. And that actually works. Houston was yeah, 7, 8 million to turn Adams and Whitmore into Lopez, basically. And then all the contracts work.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Bucks just get Beal.

[Bill Simmons]

Bucks just get Beal. That's it.

[Kevin O'Connor]

See, I'm saying no. If I'm the Bucs, I think I am too. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think when people talk about four teamers, five teamers, it's a trade like that. And I think a team like Houston has to be involved getting turning Adams and one of their, you know, younger, cheaper assets in a better center.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Here's what I got for the Jimmy Butler five way deal. I got Butler five way, five way. Sons get Butler, Heat get Chris Middleton and Pat Connaughton.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Bulls get Bradley Beal, Bucks get Zach Levine, and then the Pistons take Bobby Portis into their cap space. And then you distribute some picks to the teams that should get them, like the Bulls for taking Beal instead of Levine. But that would be the players that work salary wise. And so you get Beal. Maybe he'd waive his no trade clause, get reunited with his college coach, Billy Donovan, you know, restore his career there. Who knows what his logic would be going there. But I don't think there's many teams that Beal would waive his no trade clause for. And I thought it was very, very interesting that Mark Bartlestein, his agent, came out again publicly tonight. It's the second time he's spoken publicly about and he listed a bunch of teams. The Lakers, the Bucks, the Heat, all these teams he's not waving his no trade clause for. The Bulls weren't mentioned. So that might be because the Bulls aren't a team that a lot of people are talking about publicly in this whole scenario. But you do have the other stuff reported earlier on Thursday about the Bucks. Looking at Zach Levine, I don't think the Bucks would want Beal either. He's not necessarily an upgrade over this diminished version of Khris Middleton, but Zach Levine damn well is an upgrade over what you have in Middleton right now. So maybe Beal to the Bulls is something that could make sense there, which is why I came up with those five teams. And the Pistons is the fifth team. You could put other teams there, but they're the one with cap space. So it's just easy.

[Bill Simmons]

That's good word. Kfc. Here's. He would be my, my counter. Why would. I don't understand why the Bulls have to get rid of Zach Levine. He's played really well this year. I actually think he's an asset.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I keep him.

[Bill Simmons]

We did the ringer 100. I had him like in the 30s. I've watched him single handedly beat like the, the Celtics. Like he's the better the competition is, the more he goes up a level. If I was Milwaukee and I could turn Chris Middleton another contract into Zach Levine, I'm doing that in five seconds. He's way better than Bradley Beal. He. And plus he plays.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. If I'm the Suns, I'd probably rather get Zach Levine than Jimmy Butler.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you're right.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean I like Jimmy Butler. Obviously he's proven it in the playoffs. He was younger at that time. Zach lavine also has not been in those situations. But if you remove last year when he was out for the season with a foot injury, he's been awesome since 2020.

[Bill Simmons]

Been awesome. And he has. And this year he has the ball a lot which is like for the Lakers he makes no sense because he's not going to have the ball nearly as much and he can't play defense. Right. So if you're trading for him, it has to be a situation like the Rockets won't do it. But he's somebody that makes a ton of sense for me if I'm the Rockets. Even though he'd hurt you a little defensively, he's somebody in the last five minutes of a game can actually like match baskets with whoever the best player on the other team is. I think that's his superpower. Not a lot of guys like the Suns don't necessarily need that. Right. But if you're talking about the Bucks who already have Damon Giannis, but you're improving the Middleton spot with him basically the way Middleton's been playing this year, like I think about it, I, like I, I, we're, we're aligned though. I think Levine's been good. I hate seeing him get thrown into these trades like he's not an asset. I think he's an asset.

[Kevin O'Connor]

It makes no sense. I mean I just pulled up some numbers prior to the recording Bill. Just, just cause like with Levine a lot of people still think he's like some diminished asset. But four of the last five years, if we remove last season, 45% on catch and shoot threes, 37% on dribble jumper threes, 45% on mid range jumpers, 63% on unassisted shots at the rim. He's caught 26 lob dunks. That's the fourth most of all guards in the NBA. So he's versatile. We know, he's a great athlete. He's an elite shooter off the dribble and off the catch. He's versatile with how he gets to those shots, screens and handoffs, pick and roll. He can shoot from mid range. He can do a lot for your offense and fit into different roles at this point. So just like I just forget about last year, he's been injury prone, but last year was the only year where it actually affected his performance ever since 2020. So to me, if the, I'm the, if I'm the Bulls, I'd be happy to keep him. I know that creates some roster issues with Kobe White and all that. Maybe you end up flipping him instead, but Kobe White's also on a value contract. But lavine's been awesome, dude, I just, I can't, I can't understand why he's still viewed as some horrible asset at this point.

[Bill Simmons]

The only reason to trade him is if you feel like your team doctors who have spent a lot of time with them are like, sell high right now. This is, this is, this is it. He's going to get hurt in two months. That's the only reason.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Maybe you do. Maybe, maybe that's what it ends up being like. If the Lakers say we'll give you two unprotected firsts, if, if the Suns say we'll give you Bradley Beal and 2, 2, 2 or 3 first that we just received in that really interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Deal with the Jazz, I would keep him. I think he's going to be worth more, especially like next year. There will be two years left on his deal. They're going to be a playing team unless Philly can catch them. And I wouldn't want to play that game. And a winner takes off that team in a winner take all where all of a sudden it's a tie game with five minutes left and Zach Levine is doing some of the stuff we've seen him do this year. All right, we're aligned on that. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back fake trade time. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel from the first whistle of the final drive, FanDuel taking the NFL playoffs to the next level. Right now, new customers can bet $5 and get 300 bu in bonus bets. If you win, that is $300 in bonus bets. If you win your first $5 bet, FanDuel app giving you everything you need for live bets. Same game parlay has so much more. Plus, when you win, you get paid instantly. Just visit FanDuel.com BS to join today, get started with $300 of bonus bets. Once again, FanDuel.com BS make this playoff season unforgettable with FanDuel. An official sportsbook partner of the NFL must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus Fetch, which expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See [e-mail], gamma Problem Call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. In basketball, a blockbuster trade can make or break your playoff run. Before the deadline. GMs across the league scour for the right data and insights, hoping their moves pay off February 6th trade deadline this year. By the way, just like in basketball, growing your small business in 2025 down to how well you can build your team, that starts with better insights from LinkedIn with unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. LinkedIn has the strongest hiring data and insights to help you identify the right professionals so you can make the best hiring decisions. LinkedIn pairs you with the high quality candidates you need to make your business grow and flourish. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't active seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. Who isn't? That's a big pool of people you don't want to miss out on. And who knows, one of them could be your next All Star player. So hire smarter in the new year. Find your next Great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons Once again, LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Here's the thing about Prime. Whatever you're into, it makes it even better. I love because we watch a lot of prime movies for the rewatchables. I love being able to pop up the X ray thing that tells you what actor is in what scene. I love that. I love being able to rent movies that just came out or buy them. If I'm excited to do that. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to get more out of whatever you're into. All right, I have some fake trades that I don't think will happen but I thought would be fun to throw at you. And then I want to hit a couple that I do think could happen, should happen, probably won't happen, but at least are realistic. Trade number one, Bradley Beal for Paul George, straight up. Who says no?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Bradley Beal says no.

[Bill Simmons]

Bradley Beal says no. That's right. All right, let's say he didn't have no trade clause.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Okay?

[Bill Simmons]

So Bradley Beal has two years left after this year. Paul George has three. The Sixers called Phoenix and said, we'll give you Paul George right now for Beal. And the Suns are like, really? Okay. And they decide to do it. Beal has that connection with Embiid. Remember, Embiid was pushing for him a couple years ago. I think Phoenix blinks faster with a no than Philly in that trade.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I think both say no in the end, right? Philly. Philly needs that big wing. They have enough guards. They have, you know, Maxi McCain's out for the year, but they still have them.

[Bill Simmons]

So you think they say no fast forward?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I think Philly says no, faster, but both end up saying no.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Phoenix says no, faster, but who knows? All right, next one, three teamer. This is Miami gets Kevin Durant, Philly gets Jimmy Butler, Phoenix gets Joel embiId and a 2029 first. And philly gets a 2029 first. Philly's just out of the Embiid business. They turn embiid in a 2029 first from Miami into Jimmy Butler, and they're just out. Never going to happen.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Philly says no. Philly's like, no, you can't give up one of them.

[Bill Simmons]

But it leads me to this question. Would Philly ever consider trading Embiid a B? Would anyone consider trading for Embiid when he plays 40 games a year max? Is he untradable? Is he tradable? I have no idea.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I think Embiid. I think the Sixers would consider trading Embiid this summer. Right now, today. I don't think they would. I just don't think you can today. But this summer, absolutely you could. He starts a whole new contract, $59 million next season, and then 64 and then 69 the next three years guarantee.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you imagine Josh Harris, who also owns Washington, who's playing for the NFC title on Sunday, and he gets like a call about Sixers and he's just like, I don't even care. Like, just whatever. Just. Just don't make any trades. Like, I. I'll deal with that this summer. I just care about football. That's it. Sixers are a loss. Get them out of here by the way that, you know, Bob Myers helped Washington with the football team. Right. He was on that advisory committee and he. And, and I just feel like he's looming with the Sixers thing. And I don't think I'm alone. There's been some Bob Myers Philly buzz that I think has been building because I think he had a good experience with Josh Harris. Have you heard the same?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Very interesting. No, the only thing I heard of Bob Myers is that the Sonics could be a team when they expand. Whenever the NBA is going to do that.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Bob Myers is lurking in general, but I would not. If there is a fall guy, which we talked about earlier, it's going to be Nick Nurse and Daryl More, unfortunately, could be both. The fact that Bob Myers is. Yeah, maybe it's both. One thing that Bob Myers does builds the culture. That's what he was famous for, the warriors. And you bring him into Philly. So if it gets really bad, I just wouldn't be surprised.

[Kevin O'Connor]

All right, so we both think Bill is. Bill, is Bob a tear down guy? Like if he did get hired by the Sixers, was he somebody to reset things or would he try to open a bead?

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's a how do we get this to a better place all the way around guy before we decide to blow this up would be my guess.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. So we both think Embiid. Nothing happens until this summer. I think more because the rest of the league would be like, yeah, cool. EmbiId. No, thanks. Third trade. Do we think Brandon Ingram has any value?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Not really. Very little.

[Bill Simmons]

Making like 33, something like that, but it's expiring.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I think the value is New Orleans takes back a contract with another year on it and you get a pick as well. But Ingram himself, the injuries, the iffy production, not a lot of value and just not a lot of time left on his contract for that matter either.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're Detroit, would you rather have Ingram for one year or Tobias Harris for two?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I'm liking it with Tobias Harris. I don't think I'd want to screw up that chemistry right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think that's the right answer. All right, so I'm going to get rid of them in that trade and I'm going to knock it down to. Is there something with San Antonio and McCollum? Sorry, CJ, I threw you into a trade, McCollum. San Antonio has Trey Jones expiring, Zach Collins this year. Next year, like $16 million. They have a little wiggle room where they could actually Make a trade and take a bigger salary back. So there's ways to finagle it where they're basically just giving up an expiring. Collins, who this guy. Next year they could give up. They have a million picks. I want to see the spurs add one or two guys, and that's going to be a recurring theme for the rest of my fake trades. There's another version of this where it could be McCollum and Ingram together going from New Orleans to San Antonio, and then New Orleans gets Jones, Collins, Harrison, Barnes expiring, and at least one 20, 25 first. I want to see San Antonio do something Wemby's that if you have a top seven player, you can't pretend you don't have a top seven player. If you have tradable stuff and a million picks, like, what's wrong with at least tweaking it and going for it a little bit?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Is it possible you don't want to be too good too soon? Why the Spurs? I mean, what's wrong with having another lottery pick this year in a draft where you could take Cooper Flag? If you end up getting lucky with the 5 or 6% chance with your.

[Bill Simmons]

Lottery odds, it's impossible to go under.500. WEMBY, what's their record now?

[Kevin O'Connor]

19 and 22.

[Bill Simmons]

19 and 22.

[Kevin O'Connor]

All right, so 10th best odds, 3% chance at the number one pick, which is unlikely, but.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying there's. Right now there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 teams. They're definitely not catching from a loss standpoint. Plus Philly.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, I'd like to see them add two for the right pieces. McCollum, point guard in his 30s. I'm iffy there, and I don't love the Ingram fit with.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so you wouldn't do anything. That's why I put it in the. I'm not sure I would do this camp.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I want to do that. There's other stuff I think I would do if I'm the Spurs, but I wouldn't do that.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, well, I have another spurs trade for you. This will never happen. I just want to. None of these four trades I did, none of them are happening.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Do you have a Zion?

[Bill Simmons]

Just a fun exercise.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I'd think about Zion. That'd be fun.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Zion's coming later. Okay, this is the official blow it up trade for Philly, where San Antonio gets Paul George, Kyle Lowry and Tyrese Maxey. Wow. Philly gets Barnes, Zach Collins, Jones, Kelton Johnson, CP3, and a slew of Firsts, like, just San Antonio, like six firsts, seven firsts, whatever you do. And basically Philly just gets out of this whole thing. They do the super tank and they sell high on Maxi knowing they have McCain. This will never happen. I just want to do it as a thought experiment.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Maxi Wemby. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. San Antonio overpays. They pay $0.140 on the dollar, $0.170 on the dollar with all the extra picks they have. Just with the end game being Maxi, Castle, Wemby, Fissell, and this is our team going forward. It'll never happen. You kind of like this one?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, I love it. Yeah. I mean, I'm into it. It's kind of like the same reason why I liked Reed shepherd for them in the draft. Because I want that shooting, smaller, quick guard, speedy guy to pair with Victor. I mean, I know the Chris Paul stuff is working. I get it. It looks good. He's almost 40, but he moves so slow he can't get into the paint anymore. I think Wemby should be getting a lot more lob opportunities than he's been able to, but that's because Chris Paul is very slow and he's not able to beat guys off the dribble and defense because defenses can just switch. You wouldn't be able to do that as much if it's Maxi or somebody like that.

[Bill Simmons]

You. You would. Would you still have shepherd over Castle with that pick?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I think so. I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Really? I love Castle. I'm all in on that, dude.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, it was so close for me between those guys. I think I had it. Shepherd, Castle clinging. It was, you know, it's a lot of fun.

[Bill Simmons]

Who do you have number one in a redraft now? Just throw all the teams out. Who do you think the best asset is?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I don't know if I'd change that at this point. Right now, I think I'd keep. Keep those three.

[Bill Simmons]

Was it Reed Shepherd's 49 point performance in the G League that won you over? Yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Why did he hasn't been better in Houston?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I just think it's a lack of playing time. They just have too many guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, who's he going to play?

[Bill Simmons]

I kept all my stock. I haven't sold an ounce of Reed shepherd stock. But I love Castle.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, Castle. Castle's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

I would take in Castle first heading into the draft. I would take him first now. I love how competitive he is. I feel like, he's getting better. I think physically in like four years, I think he's just going to be like, just a beast. I can't wait to see how he grows.

[Kevin O'Connor]

If they, like, let's say they got that Maxi deal or whoever the small guard is. Castle can be like your Iguodala type to like Stephen Curry. Like he does. He does everything for your team. He can defend every position, cut spot, up screen, sometimes run pick and roll, handle the offense for you. The Castle is just like a total true Swiss army knife for that roster. I don't know. I love him. He's perfect with Victor. Perfect for the Spurs.

[Bill Simmons]

They're going to luck out. At some point, there's going to be a team going sideways that wants to rebuild and trades their expensive point guard. You know, could have three weeks ago you could have said, maybe it's Sacramento, but they kind of righted the ship a little bit. But at some point there's going to be somebody with some leverage and a team that is ready to blow it up anyway. That trade's never happening, so don't aggregate it. Did you have a fake trade that's never happening, but you still were enchanted by it?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Let's see, on my list, I think most of mine, maybe you could say there's a chance. So none of them, I would say, are super crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

You put them in the. You're saying a chance. All right, let's move into trades we could actually see happening. Even though if they probably won. I'll get you. What's your first one?

[Kevin O'Connor]

All right, first one. Orlando Magic, Anthony Simons. To the Magic for Cole Anthony, Jett Howard and one first round pick going to the Blazers. So you upgrade over Cole Anthony with Anthony Simons, younger guy as well. That still fits the roster for you moving forward in Orlando. And Portland gets Jed Howard. Maybe he turns into something, a future pick and they get some salary relief as well, since you're going to have Cole Anthony, Jed Howard in pieces rather than that big Simons deal in the $25 million range.

[Bill Simmons]

And Simons has some Orlando connections, I think.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. He's from Florida.

[Bill Simmons]

There's always. He's always been rumored as a possible magic thing.

[Kevin O'Connor]

And for Portland, it's all like an all in, you know, let's get a full look at Scoot. Scoot's been better as of late. He showed signs of life. So that's part of it. That's part of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Shown signs of life. All right, there's been life.

[Kevin O'Connor]

That's part of it for Portland. Here it's like you have Simons, who's taking a lot of those touches. He's absorbing a lot of those minutes. Cole Anthony, great chemistry. Chemistry guy for the Magic. That's one reason why you wouldn't want to move him. But he could be that in Portland, too. He could be the backup spark plug point guard. Simons is actually deserving of a bigger role. So I think he could get that with the Magic that he can't get with Portland. Because you still need to invest if you're the Blazers. Despite all the ups and downs.

[Bill Simmons]

I think what we've seen the last five, six games, which I've been monitoring very closely, was the. And plus the Billups quotes too. Billups seems like really fired up about him all of a sudden. But stuff's clicking. Things are happening. They're starting to move the team toward him. They're also in the tanking situation. So it's perfect. Just let him make his mistakes. But I'm with you. They probably. Simons probably needs to go for the scoop piece. I don't know what he's worth. So if you're saying like Orlando gives up a first, that's going to be a bottom half of the first round first. Unless it's this year's draft because their record isn't as nearly as good as it would have been because of all the injuries. So they have. They own their own first the next six years. I would probably want this year's first from them if I traded Simons.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, I think so too.

[Bill Simmons]

Because going forward, they're probably going to be a top eight or nine team. So. All right, that's a fun one. My first one. I want to get Cam Johnson, who's been floated around a lot, and Brooklyn clearly wants to trade him. I've decided Detroit should be the team that gets him. And Detroit has the Tim Hardaway expiring. They have a weird situation with their pick because New York owns their pick. So it's like protected and then it just keeps rolling over. But then you can't trade 20, 25 or 26. Cause eventually it'll be realized at 27. So I was thinking, I wonder how the Knicks would help them out and remove the protections from the pick so that Detroit could trade this year's pick, try to get Cam Johnson and maybe that other Knicks pick. Then I started thinking, you don't see teams do this this much. But what if the Knicks traded Mitchell Robinson to Detroit as part of the deal? And as part of the deal, they got this giant Trade exception, and they forfeited their rights to the Detroit first. And they got day Ron Sharp back from the Nets and they just got a backup center making $10 million less than Robinson. And then the Nets would be like, we'll give you D'Angelo Russell, too. He's available. And the Knicks are going, no, thanks. But is there something there where it could be a three team or not a two? The Knicks could get something out of it, cut some salary, create an exception. Maybe it's just Cam Johnson for Tim Hardaway and a pick and it's a later pick. But do you. Is there something there? Because I feel like there is. I would like the Pistons. I want to see them get better.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, it's complicated. So, like, I would. I'm just trying to figure out the salaries here. So Mitchell Robinson, to be clear, he's going to.

[Bill Simmons]

He's 14 million. Detroit could actually take it because. To Detroit, because they're under the cap.

[Kevin O'Connor]

They have the cap. Yeah. Well, if they're taking a Cam Johnson, they won't be under the cap, though.

[Bill Simmons]

I did it in the trade machine and it all worked because there's trade exception stuff, too. Anyway, it could just be Cam Johnson and Hardaway in a pick, and we could make it easier because that works too.

[Kevin O'Connor]

But I mean, I'm intrigued. I mean, regardless of the surrounding pieces, the idea of Cam Johnson on the Pistons makes a lot of sense.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, as a better Tim Hardaway base.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. That's the type of guy they should be going for, for sure. Like, if it's a. If it's an easier deal to make then, then maybe. But like, I don't know about all the other pieces, but Cam Johnson on the Pistons. Yes, please. Like, that's a good idea.

[Bill Simmons]

I made it too complicated.

[Kevin O'Connor]

But yes, like, just simply that idea. I like. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I. If I were the Knicks, I'd be thinking of a way to dump Mitchell Robinson in a trade and get a cheaper big back and try to get some cap space, some apron relief, some luxury tax relief and some flexibility with some sort of trade exception would be my dream scenario.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I have a Mitchell Robinson trade in part for that reason.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's hear it.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I got the Knicks in the Jazz. Mitchell Robinson, Deuce McBride who had pained me to trade and precious Achua for Colin Sexton, Walker Kessler, and a salary filler in speed by Kyluke. So in this case, you'd be you. You would do this deal if you're the Knicks, knowing that Mitchell Robinson may not be coming back for the entire season. And so you get Walker Kessler back to filthy. You get Colin Sexton as an Upgrade over Deuce McBride. I love Deuce. I think Deuce is better than Tom Thibodeau. I mean, Tom Thibodeau barely plays him, though. He barely plays any of the guys off the bench. So maybe you don't even make this deal for that reason. Knowing Tibbs is going to have Walker Kessel playing eight minutes a game and Sexton playing 15. But maybe he would play some of those guys more. So I think if you're the Knicks, something along those lines. I'd be wanting to get another center because as much as I really like precious Achua, I want a true 5. I want another true rim protector next to Kat. Because what they've been doing lately in the lineups have worked well, but they've barely played Cat with Achua. Yeah, it's worked when they have. It's been really successful for that team. But I want to see somebody that allows Cat to be in that role. He was next to Gobert in Minnesota. And Achua doesn't offer the rim protection that, say, Walker Kessler could. So maybe I've made that deal too complicated and you trim it down.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I see what you're trying to do with it, though.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I just got a 5.

[Bill Simmons]

Why do I have to trade Kessler if I'm Utah, is what I keep coming back to every time I see his name in trade rumors.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, that's the case with a lot of guys. Why am I trading this guy?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm sure you do want him. He's a young guy in a super cheap contract and he produces and he protects the rim. Why do I have to trade him? They're probably, I would assume they're going to try to be good next year or try to be better. How many years in a row can you throw away? Yeah, there's something there. I think the Knicks have to think that way. How can they package?

[Kevin O'Connor]

They got to go get BYU's AJ Devonza. One more year of being crappy.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you think they're throwing away another one?

[Kevin O'Connor]

One more year. Just one more.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're the Jazz, that's.

[Kevin O'Connor]

And also, next year's class has more than just AJ Too. Next year's class, you get the boozers. You got Kareem Lopez, who's dominating in the NBL right now at 17 years old in a men's league. So there's a lot of guys in next year's class that could be, you know, number one. Quality pick. So I think it's one more year for Utah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where's the Bancet and the Brooklyn in the Brockton rankings right now?

[Kevin O'Connor]

It's got to be number one, Hagrid.

[Bill Simmons]

No, Hagrid's got to be one, right?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean, right today, like currently, all time rising. This is top all time. Yes. The bounce is going to prove.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it Rocky Marciano from Brooklyn, Brockton.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, yeah. Over my shoulder, these two bobbleheads. I got Marvin Hagar.

[Bill Simmons]

So Marciano And Hagar are 1 2? Yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Oh yeah. All time. Yeah. They're 1 2. Without a doubt.

[Bill Simmons]

I need to take a break before I throw this next trade at you. So we're taking a quick break. All right, coming back. I'm glad you're sitting down. Take a deep breath. What if San Antonio traded for Jordan Poole and Jonas Valanchunas and gave up Jones and Collins and a first round pick and kind of dabbled in getting better, but didn't really do it and didn't really give up anything. And if you're watched and you're like, this is great, now we got rid of the one guy who can actually win games for us. We got rid of a center that keeps getting mentioned in these trade. We know what happens with these centers. They always end up going for second round picks. Nobody gives up a first round pick for the $9 million. Pretty good center. But if you're San Antonio and you could add just Jordan Pool and Valanchunas for nothing, like basically nothing, why wouldn't you do that?

[Kevin O'Connor]

So a Jordan Pool bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Let's hear it.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Throughout his entire basketball life, he's been a near 90% guy from the free throw line. He's had touch near the basket on floaters, but he's never been a consistent three point shooter until this season. 25 years old, over 40% from three for the first time in his entire career after he was a below 34% guy. What if this is the new Jordan Pool?

[Bill Simmons]

What if he figured out 20, 22 finals? Jordan Poole is really Jordan Poole and Draymond Green just punched it out of him for two years. I think he's worth taking our. It's this year and the next two on his contract. He's overpaid, there's no question. But if you're San Antonio, what do you care? You're not spending that much money anyway.

[Kevin O'Connor]

And for Pool, like, it's not like you have him till he's 27, 28 years old. So it's not a long term Career.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's been legitimately good this year. I actually like watching him on the Wizards this year. Right.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I know the Wizards went from the. One of the worst watchers in the league last year too. Oh, wait a minute. They're pretty fun. There's, there's some like, pool's been really good. Alex Sar is getting better. They've been a fun team to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you can tell who's not watching the Wizards when people are like, what if they can get Kyle Kuzma? And it's like, you obviously haven't watched a Wizards game this year. He's been one of the worst players of the week. Nobody wants Kyle Kuzma.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Kuzma has not been good. But pool, I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued because for a long time that.

[Bill Simmons]

So you like this one? This might be the first one we've fully agree.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I like this one because pool is the type of guy that I think is worth a swing. Like for the, for the Spurs. These guys I don't want to get. When they first drafted Wemby Bill, I was thinking, oh, they should accelerate. They should go after Brook Lopez and have another big. They should go after a veteran and really support Victor and be good right away. I've backed off that the last year and a half. I want them instead of take these short term guys who are a swing. I'd be open to Zion Jordan, pool types, guys like that who help you be competitive. But you're not having to overspend all of your future assets because the time you're going to be really wanting to trade in those assets, like the two future picks you got from Minnesota, the picks you have from the Hawks, that's going to be in the next two, three, four years. In that range when Victor's into his mid-20s, that's when it's time to go build and try to go for it and take those really big swings on proven guys.

[Bill Simmons]

I still think you want to be, but I still think you want to be competitive in a real way now. Which is what Preston did with OKC the last couple years. Right. Just because he lucked out in a bunch of different ways by his skill as a gm, but also like guys blossoming maybe faster than he thought, but all that stuff was good for them. Those games that OKC played the last two years led to this year. I think if you're San Antonio, you want to start thinking that way.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Totally.

[Bill Simmons]

Can this year and next year lead to two years from now? We're a 60 win team and they are competitive.

[Kevin O'Connor]

They're just slightly below.500. They're really great when Victor's on the floor.

[Bill Simmons]

So they are tough at the end of games. They. They have the same problem Houston has where it's, you know, if he's not getting the ball in the right spots, it's really. Or Vassell is really the only other one I kind of trust with the ball.

[Kevin O'Connor]

CP's too old now and Vassell's been disappointing this season.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he has. But, I mean, I. At least I feel like he can get the shot that he wants. I don't know if it's going in, but it's really hard for them to create offense down the stretch.

[Kevin O'Connor]

And Jordan pool, no issues. Creating offense.

[Bill Simmons]

Jordan pool, no issues. All right, so we're aligned on that one. I would love to see them do.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I like it. I'm into it. That's a good creative idea. I hadn't thought about Jordan Poole as a target for the Spurs. That's a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Do your Zion one. You must have a Zion to the spurs one.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I don't have a Zion to the spurs one. I was just intrigued by the idea after you mentioned the Pelicans trades.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm all in. I mean, there's multiple ways that could go. I don't know how many picks would have to, but I think putting Zion. I talked about this a couple weeks ago. Rolling the dice with Zion with that team, with the spotlight of being Wemby's teammate, different organization, lot of history titles. Tim Duncan sitting there courtside every once in a while. I would just do it. Can I give you a three way of just kind of. It's like a Yankee swap and Christmas.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Milwaukee gets Tobias Harris making $25.3 million this year. On the books for next year, too. Minnesota gets Khris Middleton, 31.7 million. Detroit gets Julius Randle, 33.1 million. This actually works in the trade machine. So Detroit's taking almost $8 million extra salary to quote unquote, upgrade from Harris to Randall. Maybe for this year. Maybe this year and next year if he opts in Minnesota saving a little money and getting rid of the Julius Randle issue that's kind of haunted them all season, even though I think he's a good basketball player, just doesn't make sense for them. So they would save 1.6 million, which with the tax becomes like 20 million or some crazy number and just kind of people passing stuff around. I kind of like it. And Milwaukee saving money, but I kind of like the idea of Randall on Detroit because even Monday everyone was going nuts about cade. Kate had 10 turnovers in that game. He has the ball all the time. You know, he kind of needs one more person, you know, I don't want Randall in Detroit. So you don't want Randall anywhere. Is there a team you want Randall Brooklyn. So you think he's become a good stats, bad team guy?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, I think that's exactly what he is. I mean, it's crazy to say that about a dude who is two time all NBA and he's had some really good seasons, but he's just been horrible for Minnesota this year. And he's also had times where he was horrible for the Knicks. And so you have this really good thing going right now with the Pistons. And I know Cade's not perfect yet, but I don't want Randall clogging the lane for Cade when things are finally opening up for him and he's looking like a borderline all NBA guy. But why do you look it for the other teams though? I'm just curious.

[Bill Simmons]

I like saving money if I'm Milwaukee and I like saving a little money if I'm Minnesota and getting rid of the Randle piece. And for Detroit, I think the bet would just be Randall was 24 and 10 and was an all NBA forward, you know, a couple times for the Knicks and got put in one of the worst possible situations in Minnesota for him as a basketball player where it just doesn't make sense. Maybe there's an actual asset here.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Or is that in part his fault that it's not working perfectly?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, it's definitely partly his fault because he doesn't know how to play any other way. But that's the thing. It's like, well, maybe on a different team there's something more here. I would think about it, but I also think that Troy probably has better moves. Like I like Cam Johnson for them more than Randall. But I Randle's not to me, he's not a sunk cost like Beal is a sunk cost to me. I don't see a scenario where he's worth that money ever again. Randall, I'm not positive. I'm sure you do too. I know some Knicks fans who still swear by Randle and were like, guy's getting a bad rap. He was really good for us. I read those people are out there. Then there's other Knicks fans who can't stand him. Give me a trade.

[Kevin O'Connor]

All right, I got a small one. This is a Sons one. Yousef Nurkic. And one of the first you got in that Utah deal to the Blazers for Robert Williams. Send Nerc back to Portland, get Time Lord. Obviously injury prone, but he's a lob guy, fits the Nick Richards profile and.

[Bill Simmons]

He makes way less money than Nurkic.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. So you're saving money and you're getting.

[Bill Simmons]

A guy who's probably has to throw something else in there to make this salary work.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Salary wise. Nurkic for Williams. Yep, it does.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean I would do it just to get off the Nurkic money next year and save the luxury tax. Nurkic is. I don't know if he's not the worst contract in the league, but when you think about he's one of the most untradable. I think two years. Yeah, it was hilarious earlier in the year when the Suns fans were thinking that they could turn Nurkic into Vucevich somehow. It's like what planet are you on? Nurkic has been awful. Nobody wants Nurkic now. They traded for Nick Richards and he doesn't play at all. So I would do that for both teams because Nurkic had. The only thing is, if you're trading a center, if I'm Portland, do I want to get a center back? Is it worth it just to get a random pick? Is there a way to make that a three way deal where Nurkic goes somewhere else?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Maybe Nurkic comes off the bench for you behind Clingan, something like that, you know. But then you have the eight in issue as well. But I want to see them go with two big sometimes. I'd like to see them try that out more often. I don't know if I think Billups is resistant to doing that, but at least Nurkic is the guy. He's, you know, he's a vet. Maybe he plays a little bit off the bench for you, but being back in Portland, maybe he won't pout like he is in Phoenix right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Ayton a trade piece to you in any way?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I don't think so.

[Bill Simmons]

So he's another one.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I agree with you, he's been productive. But who's trading for him at 30 plus million dollars? So many teams have fives right now. I don't think there's many teams out there that would want a 5. Making his money with how inconsistent he is. Yeah, I don't, I don't know the team. I'm not sure New Orleans made sense a little bit before the season, but not so much right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they're 12 and 32.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes, they're the only team that I really had thought of before the season. At this point, I don't see something there for him.

[Bill Simmons]

I have one more big trade, so give me one more from you before I do my big one.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Let's see, I got, I got one right here. I got a Cam Johnson one. I mentioned this on my, my podcast with Bobby Marks earlier in the week and he was iffy on it. So I'm curious about your thoughts. Cam Johnson to the Cavs for Isaac Okoro, rookie Jalen Tyson, Niang's contract and their unprotected 2031 first. And Bobby was iffy on it because the Cavs you could argue, and I think his reason is pretty sound here, you could argue the Cavs should try to get under the luxury tax this year to not get that clock started. So you become a team over the tax multiple years in a row once Mobley has to be re signed and all these guys deals come up. And so Bobby was like, maybe you go the other way and try to trade a guy to get under the tax. I think that makes sense. At the same time, Cam Johnson is very clearly an upgrade over Isaac Okoro. He adds dynamic shooting ability to your team. When you're on a 70 win pace, this could be your chance to go for it. This could be the only year who knows what's going to happen in the future. So I like the idea of at least going forward this year and trying to roll the dice with somebody like Cam Johnson adding more upside to your team.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't like it and I'll tell you why. I think if that team loses in the playoffs, it's going to be because of their inability to guard wings. Right? Cam Johnson's not helping me with that. So if I'm using my last trade chip and I agree their shooting's great, that always helps. But I don't think he's playing crunch time for them because now I have Garland out there and Cam Johnson if I'm playing Tatum and Brown, who's guarding Tatum and Brown if I'm playing those guys together? So I feel like if they're going to do a trade like that and go into the major attacks, I need somebody who can potentially guard Jason Tatum in the last five minutes of a Game six in Boston. And I don't think it's Cam Johnson that would be my counter.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I don't know. I don't know who it is though that you can go get. I mean like Isaac Okoro is a better defender, but he also is somebody that you're going to be helping off of on defense. It's always a, you know, push pull with these guys. So for the Cavs, you have limited assets.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, why do they have to do anything? They're playing really well. Like, I guess that's my other question with them is like, they seem like they all love playing with each other and they're having a great season. Like, sometimes continuity is the move, right?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yep, sometimes it is. And sometimes you regret not trying to add another piece. It can go both ways. I think it depends. Like, Cam Johnson's a good guy. I think he could fit into any locker room flawlessly. I don't think it'd be an issue. He's having a great to the team. Yeah, he's been great. So I just think if you're talking about, like, who defends Tatum, who defends Brown, like, it's hard to defend those guys. All these great players at that level anyway. Unless you have a truly elite.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe it's easy to friend Jalen Brown lately.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Right now it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, he's going to try that fall away again from the foul line. That'd be great.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Drive to the middle of the floor with your left hand again.

[Bill Simmons]

But.

[Kevin O'Connor]

But I think for the Cavs, if you're talking about that matchup issue, I mean, you do have Dean Wade who's been really good defensively for you, but even then, Dean Wade alone isn't stop on those guys. It's having Evan Mobley shade over and help. It's having Jared Allen presence at. At the basket. It's Donovan Mitchell helping at the nail and shading help over like it's a. It's more than one guy. So I don't think Cam Johnson some liability by any means. He's just an average defender, but he's definitely somebody they would pick on compared to the others. And by the way, if you're picking on anybody, like, if it's an endgame lineup, it's Garland. It's Garland still.

[Bill Simmons]

But now I have two guys I could pick on. I'm using Cam Johnson's guy to set the screen for Garland, and it's like a feast now.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Could be.

[Bill Simmons]

It's an interesting one because on the other hand, you could say, well, we're just going to outscore everybody. Now we have Cam Johnson, we're scoring 120 points a game, and we'll figure out how to get some stops. I'd be really scared to do that much if I was Cleveland because it seems like one of the few teams we have right now that actually really likes playing with each other. Right. How many teams, when you watch these games, how many teams actually seem like they all like each other? It's less than five.

[Kevin O'Connor]

OKC, OKC, OKC.

[Bill Simmons]

100%. They're the number one version of that.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Cleveland, I mean, obviously one and two. What, both one seeds, they happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Boston really likes each other. Even though they're not playing that well. I would put them on that list.

[Kevin O'Connor]

They're just bored. I think Boston's bored right now.

[Bill Simmons]

No question. Do you have another one? Because I have one big one. Is there another one you want to throw?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Go with your big one.

[Bill Simmons]

You ready for the big one?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I got my favorite ones out. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's an Anthony Davis trade. And the thinking is we've gone as far as we can go. We've done everything we could for you, LeBron. You've been here since 2018. We won a title together. We went and got your guy, Anthony Davis. We drafted your son and gave him a no cut contract. Every time you've pushed us to do something, we've done it. Including the Russell Westbrook trade, which you've were hands off after that happened. We've taken this as far as we can go and we're not going to mortgage any more of the future for this. Because for the first time ever, the Clippers have a better arena than us and probably a better team. And there's something cool happening with them, and there's nothing cool happening with us. And we're not going to be held hostage by this anymore. The story in sports, decades after decades, is people trying to appease aging superstars. It never ends well. We're not going to do it. We're going to zag the other way. We're going to trade Anthony Davis to the Golden State Warriors.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Oh, man.

[Bill Simmons]

And we're going to get back your buddy, Draymond Green. Schroeder's expiring Kaminga, Jackson Davis. Golden State's 25 and 27. First and a 2029 pick swap. That's LA's call. We're cashing in. What do you think?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Are you sure this is the Lakers going the other way? Draymond's still a really good defender.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a pretty good trade. They're getting Draymond, Schroeder, Kaminga. They get to roll dice to them. Jackson, Davis, and if you're the warriors, you still have enough left. And you're going to build around Davis and Curry going down the stretch. And you could probably get creative with some other moves. It's kind of fun.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I don't think the warriors do it, but I'm intrigued.

[Bill Simmons]

Too many picks.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, too many picks. And.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so let's just say this year's number one, which would be in the middle of the draft and a 27 unprotected first. So now I don't think the Lakers do it now.

[Kevin O'Connor]

You think Steph would break up? Let's say the warriors are in a position they're no to blowing it up. No to, you know, trading Stephen Draymond this summer. Right. Let's just say they're not going to do that. Do you think Steph would be willing to break up with Draymond in the scenario?

[Bill Simmons]

I think the only team that you could talk yourself into this being a realistic scenario is the Lakers, because Draymond get to live in Los Angeles and play with LeBron.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Draymond want it to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Draymond might be like, this sounds great. I've always wanted to be on the Lakers. Let's. Let's do it. I also think it's way harder to find an Anthony Davis trade that makes sense than people realize, because I see I have people in my life. It's time to trade Davis. It's like, where, like, you're not trading me. Houston, they can't even trade Shengun this year. Like, it would have to be like, this summer. Right. And at that point, LeBron's 41. And, you know, people probably know you go around the league, you would have said in the past, oh, that maybe they get Carl Anthony Towns and some picks for him. But Carl Anthony Towns is playing great, you know, and you go around the league, I think it's really hard to find the right trade for him that he'd be excited about to put him on a team that could actually win a title. Like, could it be Oklahoma City? No, they're not mortgaging everything for Davis. When they have Shays big contract coming up and they got to pay Jalen Williamson, they're going to have to play Chet Holmgren soon, and they're not trading Chet for him. So you go through all the teams, and I think it's way harder to figure out. I even was like, oh, Orlando will be a good one. Go look at their contracts. What's the Orlando trade? They can barely even match all the contracts to get to where AD Is. So I go and say was the only one that made sense.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Orlando's interesting, though. If they were to give Isaac, who's like, 24 million, I'm doing this, doing this on top of my Nicole Anthony, who's like 12 and then I think Jet Hobbs.

[Bill Simmons]

So Isaac would have to be in the trade.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah, maybe that gets you there. Orlando would be interesting too.

[Bill Simmons]

The problem is like the way the league is now with these different rules. It's really hard to make like a five for one. Right. You need that one awesome $28 million contract that you can put in a trade like that and they just don't have it. So they could put, you know, they could put. You said. What'd you say? Cole Anthony, something like that.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I'm pulling up a trade machine right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm looking at spot track.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Isaac at 25, Anthony at 12.9 and then Jet Howard.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Caldwell Pope. I have to be in it, right?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I'm not. Not sure if he has.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Isaac makes 25 this year. That is pretty.

[Kevin O'Connor]

It would work. Yeah. 80. 80 is 42, $43.2 million. And then for Isaac Anthony and Jet Howard, those guys are.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, wouldn't Carter have to be in that trade though?

[Kevin O'Connor]

No, I mean it wouldn't have to be like finance wise. He wouldn't have to be like. You could put him in there instead of Cole Anthony potentially, I think is cerutty on this. No, no, no, you can't. You can't do Wendell Carter can. You could do Wendell Carter. No, you can't trade on this.

[Bill Simmons]

Zoom or. No, I can't.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Carter.

[Bill Simmons]

Carter has a trade serp on for a second. Let's talk this out.

[C]

What's up?

[Bill Simmons]

You knew this was coming.

[Kevin O'Connor]

What's up, Sir?

[Bill Simmons]

All right.

[Kevin O'Connor]

80, 80 for Isaac Anthony and Howard and then like a bunch.

[Bill Simmons]

No, let's put Carter in there. I think, I don't think.

[Kevin O'Connor]

You cannot, you can't trade Carter. Carter cannot be traded the season.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, because he had the extension.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yes. So he can't be traded. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think, Saruti?

[C]

I think about it. I mean I've been one of the.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like, I feel like.

[C]

I feel like you, when we were in Denver that we were talking about that I was like the king of the like, yeah, Lakers should trade Ad like, what's the point? Like get what you can get for him. I never even thought of this as a possibility. I mean, it's not really what they need. But just imagine that team like that could. That has like all time defensive capabilities. That would be absurd. I mean, just go all in on your identity. I'd be a little bit worried about, you know, I don't know. He just. The injury concerns and the age profile stuff. But it would be kind of fun.

[Bill Simmons]

So you'd have to do 25, 27, 29 and 31. I think you'd have to do four unprotected firsts. Probably throw in the Denver first that you have that's rolls over and then maybe a swap. Like how many, how many picks is that Koch?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I mean you just listed five, six. Do you want to give all those picks for 80?

[C]

I think, I think that's where I say no. I think that's where I say no because you know, is, is the timeline right? Like when in two years. Like they're not winning east this year. Maybe next year they could be a top three team and see about the health situation. But like it, it feels like they're going in completely opposite directions.

[Bill Simmons]

Pause button. You right now?

[C]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

You'd have a starting front line of AD and Franz. The timeline is like now when all those guys come back, I don't want to play that team.

[C]

You're right.

[Bill Simmons]

See that team in a playoff series. The timeline is this year.

[Kevin O'Connor]

If you do that, I want to do it.

[C]

But if it doesn't work out, you're kind of screwed.

[Bill Simmons]

Right yout get hurt.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I want to do it for all those picks.

[Bill Simmons]

Three picks.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I'd be cheap. I'd be cheap there if I'm the magic. Like 80 is 31 right now. He's got four years left until he's 34, 35 years old and he's going to be making almost $60 million the next three years.

[Bill Simmons]

Koc this is the part where I remind you that the Knicks traded five first round picks for Mikhail Bridges.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I know Davis is like 11th best.

[Bill Simmons]

Guy in the league.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I know that's the bar.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it has to be five picks.

[C]

I think I'm saying no, I think I'm saying wow and just wait for something else to happen.

[Kevin O'Connor]

But here's the one thing, Sir Rudy, right? Like what is that next thing? Because let's say there's a player that anytime a player that becomes available who's better than A.D. it's going to be Utah or the Thunder or the spurs or the Rockets, the Nets, these teams that have more picks in quantity and quality. Like the Magic, the Rockets can trade.

[Bill Simmons]

For him this summer, Shengun and a bunch of stuff and go get them in July.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Exactly. So all these other teams have more quantity and quality that the Magic can't wait for that top five guys, right?

[Bill Simmons]

They're Trumpet, they're stepping there, jumping the line and Grabbing them now.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[C]

But I'm. I think I'm okay long term with, like, you know, let those guys go, you know, big fish hunting, and we'll just make moves around the edges and kind of like. Because you got the two guys, you've got the guys that matter, you know? Like, I.

[Bill Simmons]

So I don't. I just disagree with you. It would be a better case if you were like, I'm not sure we should trade for Anthony Davis, who is super injury prone during the year that Palo and Franz both suffered the exact same injury and Mo Vonder got hurt and Suggs got hurt. We do not. We do not want to bring our comments to Carmen, to Anthony Davis.

[C]

Make sure the obliques are iced up for every game. I know.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What's Anthony Davis's oblique situation? Is it okay?

[C]

I didn't know NBA players heard.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. He, like, strains it. Um, I. Orlando is the only other one. I went through everybody else. I just, you know, there's, like, Sacramento. If you could do, like, a Sabonis Davis like that. But I don't know where that gets either team. You know, I think it's.

[C]

I like Golden State. I like the Golden State one. It just feels. It feels like that's a. That's a timeline match thing that. That just kind of works out.

[Bill Simmons]

I will say this. That trade I laid out, if that actually happened, would be one of the most fun trade moments of the 21st century. There's so much going on in that trade in all different directions that it just feels like we would talk about that for 10 straight days. Thanks, Saruti.

[C]

Thanks, guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Koc, any last trades before we go?

[Kevin O'Connor]

No, that's all I had listed, Bill. That 81 has me thinking, though. I mean, because for the Lakers, Bill, you're right. Like, I don't think they're going to necessarily go the other way that you're proposing, but it's something they should at least think about. Like, this week, I made the case writing, like, the warriors should blow it up because they're not going anywhere. Steph's declining, Draymond's declining. At least they're showing signs of it this year. It reminds me of the 201213 Celtics, when KG and Pierce were still really good, but they clearly were beginning to fall a little bit, and they make the deal that leads to Tatum and Brown. And so I think the warriors are in that spot where at least the front office and ownership should be thinking about it. And for The Lakers, obviously, LeBron. I mean, LeBron's not the same guy, he's just not. He's still a great player, but he's not the same level player. And AD who knows when the injuries will start perking back up again. So they should think about it. I just think that Lakers roster is still worth at least exploring, adding more. But if the Magic call up and offer you four firsts and two swaps, you gotta take that meeting and really think hard about it. Because if you do that, then that opens up your ability to say, oh, guess what? We are open to LeBron trades. And then if you were to get something for LeBron too, suddenly you'd have the most picks in the NBA. And then you're.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but how, but how many contenders? How many contenders, teams that actually have a chance to win the title or a realistic option for a 40 year old guy making 50 million a year with no trade clause? I can't find a single team. Even if he said like, oh, Cleveland, he wants to come back home, it's like, if I'm Cleveland, do I want to. That's a pretty like aggressive reshaking of the roster. I wouldn't do that.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I want to do it without LeBron. If I'm Cleveland.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, also, like you have such a good thing now you're bringing somebody who you know the two generations of guys in the league like Revere. It's really hard for him to be like, all right, just set some picks and hit a couple corner threes for us. Like he's going to have the ball. I don't know what the team is for him, so. And I don't, I don't, I don't think he wants to leave LA anyway. So it's not realistic. Davis as a trade is more realistic to me, but I just don't. The Lakers organization, I just, I don't understand why they kowtow to these guys.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Maybe The Suns for LeBron, somebody like that short flight away from LA instead of Jimmy Butler.

[Bill Simmons]

Now the Lakers are taking Beal. Like they don't want. What do you. I don't want to turn LeBron into Beal. No thank you. Also, like if you're the Lakers and you trade LeBron, all of a sudden your games, like if you're going to actually rebuild or you're going to like blow it up or whatever, like there is still. People go to the Games to see LeBron. He's one of the greatest players in the history of the league. That's still a draw. And they're still in this mix where they seem relevant People who don't actually watch basketball that much think they're still a contender. And there's an illusion of competitiveness that is, to me, not real. But you at least have that. Once you start blowing this up now you're where you were in the mid 2010s.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Why is that? Is that because of LeBron not being top two, top three anymore? Is that why? Or is that more something about the supporting cast? Like, why do you think that is?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's. I mean, he's 40. He's not the. Not close to being the same guy that he used to be.

[Kevin O'Connor]

He's still one of the 10 to 15 best guys. AD you said 11th best or something like that. So if you still have two touchdowns.

[Bill Simmons]

But LeBron doesn't play defense anymore, I don't understand how anyone could put him in the top 12 to 15 at this point when.

[Kevin O'Connor]

So you don't have him up there?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I don't. I would have him in the top 25, but I think, wow. I think it's really hard to beat good teams when you have multiple holes on defense like they have. I think that's a fair statement. Like, when they have. They're playing Reaves and Connect and LeBron all at the same time, it's like you're. You can't play defense that way. So. And I'm not. What position is the perfect position for him? Ideally, Right, it's the four. Yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Point.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you have Rui playing with him. Really. You want to have perimeter guys and you want shooting. But that would mean LeBron would have to guard bigger guys and rebound more and, you know, step up on that. And it just doesn't seem like he has enough in the tank to do that anymore. So they're in a weird conundrum with him because he gets his stats, you can catch the right night. He looks great, but I don't see it night to night. And we get to the playoffs, it's every other game, you know, so if, like, if I was the Lakers advisor, would either of us say, like, you guys have a chance to make the finals with this team. You're one move away? I don't think they are.

[Kevin O'Connor]

They're two moves away from at least having a chance.

[Bill Simmons]

Everyone's two moves away.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Well, that's exactly why it's difficult for them. They're two moves away from having a chance. And even then, they're still not the favorite. I'm still not taking them in a series against OKC or Denver. I Still think they're probably a second round out.

[C]

Yeah.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Even. Even if they do get Levine, even if they do get Kessler. But you'd have a better shot in that scenario. But I still want to pick them for all.

[Bill Simmons]

So much luck with you. You need an OKC injury, you need something weird to happen with. You'd have to go down and there would have to be a dumb thing that happened with every team.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I just think, and it can happen that like the warriors had a pretty good path in 2022 and like Kurt talked about recently and they, they win it all like it's. It's not impossible to happen. So that, that's what they know way. But I, I do think, you know, if a team calls up for AD and makes a significant offer, they need to be thinking about that. They have to.

[Bill Simmons]

Who do you have in the finals right now?

[Kevin O'Connor]

Still OKC in the west, though. Denver really intrigues me just the way they're playing lately. Like we talked about earlier with Ross stepping up and everything.

[Bill Simmons]

And Murray looks way better than he did four weeks ago.

[Kevin O'Connor]

He looks way better. He looks more like himself. And then in the East, I'm still going to take the Celtics for now, even though I think the shooting, the shooting I'm worried about most because like the, you know, some of the other stuff, I think they're just bored. This happens almost every December into January with them. Yeah, but the shooting, they're closer to the middle of the pack and three point this season. I wonder if there's some tired legs there. Drew Holiday has regressed as a shooter, Derrick White has as of late and Jerry Lynn Brown looks like there's just something off with him. I worry there, but I'll still lean towards Boston right now over Cleveland. That may change by the end of the season, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's tough. When you win the title, you go one of two ways. You can either come out the next season like a bat out of hell or you just assume you could turn it on anytime you want. And they've. They started out one way and I think they've settled into the other way, where it's like, we're fine, we're fine. I don't like that they don't have home court in the last two rounds. The way this is shaken out, though, I don't think that's nothing. It's all fine until it's game six at home with a game seven in the other place. You're down 3, 2 for the series and you fall behind by nine in the second quarter and the fans are like, oh my God, our season might. I'd like to see them have one streak koc because I think that's what separates the real teams from everybody else. These teams that could just rip off 11 straight, 12 straight. Last year they were a 25 game winning streak threat for every month of the season. And this year they can't play five good games in a row.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Who worries you most besides Cleveland in the east still? Milwaukee.

[Bill Simmons]

Milwaukee always. Because he honest Orlando a little bit because of the defense. I'm still like Orlando. I'm not just saying this to make sure it is night. Orlando just kind of hanging out over there with this crazy defense.

[Kevin O'Connor]

They're not beating Boston. Their offense, they're 30th and three point. They haven't had their guys and I know, but even with those guys, they scared. This isn't there yet.

[Bill Simmons]

The defense scares me because this Celtics team can look really clumsy and really static and the toilet ball offense can go into full effect. And with all those guys they have, they have just guys to throw at Tatum and Brown. And I don't like the way the guards on the Celtics have played for two months. You know, I got. We're taping this before I go to the Clipper game tonight. And I'm going to the Laker game tomorrow night. I really want to see it in person. Like, are these guys. Do they look different athletically? Is this just a funk? What's going on? So I guess we'll find out.

[Kevin O'Connor]

The Olympics may have been very bad for those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Very possible.

[Kevin O'Connor]

White. White and Holiday having a long off season, a long playoffs. Something's off with those guys. That's where my concern is as well as with those guards and the overall team shooting ability.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Knicks, obviously I wouldn't look forward to seeing them in a series either because they have good basketball players and Brunson's really good and Towns has been playing great. So, you know, I do think when you play that team for two weeks, little easier to figure out. But you know the east is way better. You think last year it was like a walk in the park, which wasn't their fault, but that's what it was. This year a little different. Milwaukee, we'll see if they make one more move too. The team they have right now, I wouldn't be afraid of, but they're one move away from me being more afraid. Right.

[Kevin O'Connor]

If they were to get Levine, that.

[Bill Simmons]

Would be scary because he kills the Celtics, that would be one of those. All the Celtic fans like, oh no, they got that guy.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Lavine Giannis would be beautiful together. Like that would be incredible. Lopez has been great this year for them too. If they can subtract Portis and upgrade from Middleton, I think they're cooking. They get something there.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, kfc, good to see you again. You can follow his podcast, subscribe, listen to it, and you can read him on Yahoo as well. Great to see you.

[Kevin O'Connor]

Great to see you too, Bill. Have a good night.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to koc. Thanks to Kyle and Ceruti and Gahal. Don't forget you can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will be back tomorrow night with yet another podcast. We're going heavy on the football tomorrow, as you would probably expect. See it in 24 hours. Said I don't have must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPENOT.