An NBA Mini-Mailbag and All-Star Picks, Plus Kon Knueppel Stops By

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast – January 15, 2026 Episode: An NBA Mini-Mailbag and All-Star Picks, Plus Kon Knueppel Stops By

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Overview

In this packed hoops-focused episode, Bill Simmons kicks off with an NBA “mini-mailbag,” tackling a slew of listener questions about everything from All-NBA game minimums to whacky NBA skills. He then reveals his unofficial NBA All-Star starter and reserve picks for both conferences. The episode wraps with an in-depth interview with standout Charlotte Hornets rookie Kon Knueppel, touching on his acclimation to the league, his family basketball dynasty, rookie routines, teammate camaraderie, and evolving trends in the NBA. The vibe is classic Simmons—opinionated, informed, and sprinkled with nostalgia and humor.

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Mini-Mailbag: Key Discussion Points & Insights

(03:00–33:00 approx.)

NBA Awards and the 65-Game Minimum

• Listener Q: Is the 65-game minimum for NBA awards too rigid, especially in light of Nikola Jokic's recent injury?
• Simmons: Acknowledges the origin—the rule was put in place to combat star players sitting out, hurting fan experience.
• Suggested Nuance: Proposes a tweak allowing players who miss 12+ consecutive games due to injury to qualify with 60 games, instead of 65. “If you miss three consecutive weeks with an injury, maybe that drops from 65 to 60. I think that solves this Jokic issue.” (05:30)

Alt-Broadcasts with Local Color Commentators

• Inspired by fan email about kooky, ultra-biased local commentary (e.g., Pacers’ Quinn Buckner calling Pascal Siakam an All-Star).
• Simmons loves the idea: Suggests regular season “free-for-alls” between rival color guys. "They would just be incredulous with each other for two and a half hours.” (10:20)

Phoenix Suns' Dramatic Turnaround & The “Costanza Theory”

• The Suns shifted from “the most unwatchable NBA team of the decade” to an “absolute delight” (thanks to coaching, young personnel).
• Simmons: Acknowledges the “Costanza” (do-the-opposite-of-your-instincts) effect, but credits smart moves and coach Jordan Ott, not just random chance or reversal.
• Notes the Sacramento Kings are a candidate to try the “Costanza” approach given their persistent struggles. (13:30)

Rich Paul’s Candid Lakers Podcast

• Addresses conspiracy theory that The Ringer's involvement in a Lakers-adjacent podcast is “destroying” the team.
• Simmons: Playfully denies any plotting, but is “delighted” as a Celtics fan to see the candor and newsiness from Rich Paul, calling it part of a larger trend of insiders, players, and agents entering the podcast space. (16:00)

LeBron’s Legacy Post-Playing

• Can LeBron pass Michael Jordan in the GOAT argument if he shifts to coaching, GM, or ownership?
• Simmons: “No”—championships matter most as a player, but admits greatness in post-playing roles (like Jerry West) can enrich the legacy.

Linsanity Revisited

• If Jeremy Lin’s breakout happened in 2026, would the impact be different?
• Simmons: “Smaller.” 2012’s unique internet/Twitter/media climate made Lin’s rise iconic. Now, “so much stuff going on all the time, I don’t know if anything would cut through in the same way.” (20:40)

Celtics & Jaren Jackson Jr. Trade Rumor

• Bill explains Celtics’ front office is leak-proof—don't believe rumors unless it’s official.
• He’s personally “out” on trading for Jaren Jackson (money, rebounding, fit), though admits he’d talk himself into it if it were to happen. (22:40)

NBA’s Best “Weirdo Skills” Award

• Listener proposes awards for niche, untracked skills (e.g., T.J. McConnell’s inbound steals).
• Bill’s nominees:
  • T.J. McConnell – sneaky inbound steals ("almost like he's hiding in the bushes")
  • Derrick White – guard blocks, breaking up 2-on-1 fast breaks
  • Jokic – 70-yard one-handed passes
  • Michael Porter Jr. – wild off-balance shooting ability (28:30)
• “McConnell would be minus-180 to win that award.” (30:00)

Most Improved/Breakthrough Player & Sneaker Culture

• Shifts “Most Improved” to “Where Did You Come From?”—guys who suddenly jump into the limelight, even shoe deals.
• Surprised so many lesser stars now have shoes; Jokic notably does not.

All-Star Voting, All-NBA, and Toughest Cuts

• Simmons takes All-Star voting seriously; discusses different philosophies to reward proven stars or current breakout players.
• Derek White and Kawhi Leonard are notable tough omissions due to injury/minutes/record.

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Bill Simmons’ All-Star Starters and Reserves

(40:00–53:50)

West Starters:

• Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
• Nikola Jokic
• Anthony Edwards
• Steph Curry ("He's Steph Curry... I selfishly want to see him in the game.” (41:30))
• Luka Doncic

East Starters:

• Giannis Antetokounmpo
• Jalen Brown
• Tyrese Maxey
• Cade Cunningham
• Jalen Brunson

Key West Reserves:

• Jamal Murray
• Devin Booker
• Alperen Sengun
• Victor Wembanyama ("He tilts the floor in all these different ways…")
• Kevin Durant
• Deni Avdija (“doing 26/7/7 on a Portland team that shouldn’t be near .500”)
• Julius Randle (Minnesota)

Kawhi is the “toughest cut.”

Key East Reserves:

• Donovan Mitchell (“toughest cut” but makes it as reserve)
• Jalen Johnson
• Scottie Barnes
• Jalen Duren
• Michael Porter Jr.
• Norman Powell (over Derek White: “My heart says it’s Derek White, but I… might not be thinking about it rationally.”)
• Karl-Anthony Towns

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Interview: Kon Knueppel, Charlotte Hornets Rookie

(53:55–1:27:00+ approx.)

Rookie Adjustment, Mentality, and Arrival

• “You're the youngest podcast guest we’ve ever had.” (54:00)
• Kon credits playing in men's leagues as a kid for his mature game: “Playing in that men’s league, you learn to grow, be more physical, how to move off the ball—all those things that are really important in today’s NBA.” (54:47)
• Lives alone in Charlotte, enjoys the independence. Drove a Ford Explorer—“cheap guy.”

NBA Transition & Camaraderie

• Notes value of arriving on a young team with other rookies.
• Praises Charlotte’s squad for unity. “We got a great squad of just guys that kind of embrace you right away.” (58:06)

On- and Off-Court Life

• Spontaneous team gathering at his family’s house in Milwaukee—“didn’t think it was that big of a deal, but people like knowing NBA players are normal.”
• Discusses rookie wall: “Honestly, I feel it’s more mental than anything. It gets really repetitive… the same thing.” (64:10)

Playing With/Against NBA Stars

• Describes learning to play with Lamelo Ball, notes his unpredictability and high-level passing.
• On Giannis: “He loves going baseline, gets you with a high elbow. It’s hard for the officials to see… it’s really hard to stay in front of him.”
• On Harden: “He got me with a foul… put my hand in the cookie jar, he did the [move], went right into the three, got me.”
• Discusses defending SGA, Brunson, McConnell; learning from veterans like Grant Williams, Pat Connaughton, Mason Plumlee.
• Sang the praises of the rookie class: “It’s a good group. Hopefully it keeps going that way.” (58:41)
• On playing Jokic: “He seemed like he wasn’t even trying that hard… then you look up, it’s 29/13/9.” (82:01)

Family, Background, and Brothers

• Knueppel comes from a basketball dynasty: four younger brothers, all big and talented, three currently on high school varsity.
• “The law of professional sports says the 8th grader is going to be the best one.” (96:51)
• His mother helps with off-court logistics and family text checks in before every game (“be aggressive, play hard” from mom; “light ‘em up, D ‘em up” from dad).

Personal Tidbits

• Long-distance relationship with his high school sweetheart, now a Marquette freshman.
• Recently deleted social media: “More so just didn’t want to be scrolling and have three hours go by.”
• Massive sports podcast listener (“NBA, NFL… I listen to a bunch of stuff.”)
• Eats brunch after shootaround, getting used to NBA eating/travel schedule.

NBA and Game Trends

• Impressed by the league’s “efficiency revolution,” spread offenses, and improved shot quality: “The shot quality throughout the league is a lot better.”
• “You gotta have a good big now… small ball was getting real popular; can’t do it anymore.” (73:07)

Analytics, Practice, and Injury Trends

• Engages with analytics to spot his own weaknesses (“one corner three was below average; it’s evened out now”).
• “I think we are playing a lot more possessions… and the pace, everybody’s playing fast.”
• “It’s so much harder now to compare eras; the stats don’t translate.”

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Simmons to Knueppel: “You’re kind of the poster boy of this next generation… efficient everything.” (69:57)
• On NBA camaraderie: “Mason Plumlee says half the battle in this league is having everybody still like each other in February.” (86:16)
• On family group chat: “Before every game, mom’s ‘be aggressive, play hard;’ dad’s ‘light ‘em up, D ‘em up.’” (113:12)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “If Jokic plays 60 games but misses 17 in a row, I still think he should be eligible for all NBA.” — Bill Simmons (05:30)
• “All casts should have some sort of bent… I like the idea of an alt cast where it’s basically a regular season free for all.” — Bill Simmons (10:20)
• “He’s candid… and it’s fascinating. I couldn’t be more delighted the Ringer’s involved. If it’s caused trauma for Lakers fans… I can’t say that was the intention but it’s a pure delight to me as a Celtic fan.” (16:00)
• “You’re the youngest podcast guest we’ve ever had… but I don’t understand why you seem like you’re 27 years old in these games.” — Bill Simmons to Kon Knueppel (54:00)
• “Honestly, I feel it’s more mental than anything else. It just gets really repetitive—the same thing.” — Kon Knueppel on the rookie wall (64:10)
• “Half the battle in this league is having everybody still like each other in February.” — Mason Plumlee, relayed by Kon Knueppel (86:16)

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Episode Highlights & Takeaways

• A nuanced, deeply fan-focused take on the 65-game rule and why injury exceptions might make sense.
• Honest behind-the-curtain look at All-Star voting, including Simmons’ biases and logic for his toughest calls.
• Insightful rookie perspective from Knueppel—insight into adaptation, team culture, the grind, and joys of NBA life.
• Playful rundown of wild NBA skills that deserve more recognition.
• Endearing family and personal insights from Knueppel, revealing humility and gratitude.
• Genuine engagement with listener ideas and nuanced discussion of current league debates.

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Recommended Segments & Timestamps

• 03:00 – Start of Mini-mailbag: 65-game minimum, alt-broadcasts, Phoenix turnaround
• 16:00 – The Rich Paul Podcast and player/agent media candidness
• 40:00 – All-Star picks rundown & philosophy
• 53:55 – Kon Knueppel interview
• 64:10 – Rookie “wall” discussion and adapting to NBA life
• 73:07 – League’s changing play styles and big men comeback
• 86:16 – NBA team vibes and locker room chemistry
• 113:12 – Family support structure and game-day rituals

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Tone & Language

Conversational, candid, humorous, sharp; Simmons in top podcasting form—mixing informed critiques with fandom and personal stories. Knueppel brings a steady, thoughtful, and mature rookie perspective, underlining the night-in, night-out grind and supportive family background.

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This summary provides a detailed guide to the discussed themes, takeaways, and direction for listeners new or old, skipping over sponsor reads and non-content segments as requested.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs who just dropped a game changing sandwich. The French Dip Literally one of my favorite sandwiches slash subs. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll and the warm savory au jus. I've been eating these forever since I was living on the east coast in la. I think to me this versus the cheesesteak, the French dip no contest. Way better and I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game day sub. Fun to order by the way if you want it delivered because they usually put the au jus in the special little container you can pour it on. Knock yourself out. The French Dip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer only at Firehouse Subs. Limited time at participating Firehouse Subs restaurants while supplies last. The Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel Sportsbook we're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables. On Tuesday night we did what lies Beneath. It was me and Molly Rubin and Chris Ryan. Get it. Wherever you get your Rewatchables podcast, you can also watch it as a video on Spotify. This is my third BS podcast of the week. We had football ones on Sunday and on Monday. I have another football one coming on Thursday as I try to go 05 again with my playoff picks. Please go against me today. We're doing a basketball conk and nipples. Coming up later at the very top I am going to do a little mini mailbag and my NBA All Star picks. So that is next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live. They have your way. Go check out your way. You can build the bet that fits your play your way. Plus don't miss out on the NFL playoffs. One of my favorite times of the year. All month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. Get ready for the playoffs. Let's go. Must be 21 + President select states 18 + in D.C. kentucky and Wyoming game prom win 100 Gambler visit rg-help.com call 888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org chat in connect. All right, this isn't an official mailbag. It's a mini mailbag. I really just wanted to do my all star starters and reserve picks and just bounce through what I was thinking. But I thought it was a chance to sneak in some timely mailbag questions. These were questions that were sent into bspodcast33mail.com first one came from Rob from Long island, then in parentheses it says via the Cape. So he went from the Cape to Long Island. To each his own, I guess. He said with the recent Jokic injury, was wondering if the NBA went too far with the 65 game minimum for awards, which has been a controversial topic. He suggested what if all players were eligible for awards, but if you don't play 65 games you become ineligible for contract incentives. He had another thing about a sliding scale for MVP points. I keep getting questions like this and it keeps being a topic and it's interesting that Jokic was the catalyst because I think people realized how absurd it would be to have a awards season where Jokic wasn't represented. And as I've said many times on this podcast, for whatever reason, I care about this about as much as anyone because it all goes back to when I was working on my book. The all NBA stuff was really important. Trying to figure out a snapshot of the year. This is why I've been so fanatical about they changed the rules. You could basically vote for 15 guards for the three all NBA teams. I'm not doing that. I like to obey at least some of the things that went through the first eight decades of the league where big men mattered in awards, wings, guards. We had all types of players. So I care about this stuff and here's why I landed on this because we could have had this conversation last year. There are other players that got hurt for some reason. Jokic became the catalyst because he's having the best year of his career. He is one of the best players of the century and is now in the running for top 10 best players ever and just have if he plays 59 games, 60 games, whatever, and he's not on an all NBA team, it's just going to seem stupid. I don't mind the 65 game thing and I don't want people to forget the premise of why that was created. Because the league was under the gun a little bit with guys just skipping games and people paying to go to a Clipper game, a Warriors game, a Celtic game, a Nets game, whoever, and they thought somebody was going to be in town and they go to the game and that person just doesn't play for rest, for to rest, a minor injury, whatever it is. And they're really trying to incentivize teams and players not to do that. So I get it. I think 65 games is fair and I think we should keep it. I do think there should be a wrinkle that if you have a specific injury that you're knocked out and we could say it's 12 straight games, it's 14 straight games. We can even say it's 15 straight games. But let's say 12 because 12 is basically three weeks. So if you miss three consecutive weeks with an injury, maybe that drops from 65 to 60. I don't think the problem with what's happened here is that Jokic, who's a durable guy who is available for just about every game and is reliably there, if you're paying to see the Denver Nuggets come to your town, pretty good bet Yokage is going to be there. We're penalizing him for something that he couldn't control, which was he had a serious injury that knocked him out for a month. So If Jokic plays 60 games but misses 17 in a row, I still think he should be eligible for all NBA. So that's what I would do. I would have a 12 plus straight game knocks you to a different tier where now you can get to 60 and you and you still play. And I think that, I think that solves this Jokic issue. So that's my first one. Next email is from Samir from Brooklyn via Boston. A lot of vias today in the mini mailbag he said he was switching between the Boston and Indiana broadcast for Celtics Pacers and he heard Brian Scalberti call Pritchard quote, unlike any player he's ever seen. And then Quinn Buckner, who's the Indiana guy, called Pascal Siakam an all star. So Samir asks, why haven't we had a booth that pits local color commentators against one another so they can bring each other back down to earth? Instead of having neutral boosts for national broadcasts, we could have color commentators from each team saying most unabashedly biased things possible while the other says things like, wait, you just called an average player in a last place team in All Stars. So home court gets the play by play guy who's desperately trying to keep the things moving. And then you have the color guys from the local markets fighting it out. I love this idea. They always talk about what is the future of alternate broadcasts and normally they're pretty terrible or you're just going to end up watching the normal broadcast like the Manning cast is fine. I always watch Buck and Aikman. I have no idea why anyone would watch the Manning cast when I could just get the game on a bigger thing. All casts should have some sort of bent. Like if I'm in the playoffs and all I have is the national team, I should be able to watch a broadcast with the Celtics announcers. If I have the Patriots game and I don't want to hear Romo, I don't even know who's doing the Patriot. I actually don't think it's Romo. It's Collinsworth. But let's say I hate Collinsworth and as you know I love Collinsworth. Let's say I didn't like Collinsworth and I want to hear the Patriots announcers. That should be an alt cast for that. I like the idea of an alt cast where it's basically a regular season free for all. Between the two color commentators for the two teams, I think that would be pretty funny. They would just be incredulous with each other for two and a half hours. I don't blame these guys for doing it though. They have to ride on the team plane. They're incentivized. Like if the team wins a championship ring or something, they get a championship ring. So they really do think it's like we that's why they get so bent out of shape with the calls. But it would be funny to just pit them against each other. Marcus at Temecula via Phoenix has a question about the Phoenix Suns. He said last year's Phoenix Suns most unwatchable NBA team of the decade. I think that actually might be right because we've had bad teams. But when a team hates playing with each other, that's way worse to watch. He said. Slow old, predictable, stagnant offense. No defense, no chemistry. Isoball overall disgraceful effort professional basketball team. I agree with all that. Then he says this year Sun's an absolute delight. Fast, young, unpredictable flowing offense, intense defense, amazing chemistry. Objectively it would appear that the Phoenix Suns have accomplished the George Costanza just do the opposite of your instincts with great success. Can you name another team in NBA sports history that succeeded with the Costanza theory? And is Dylan Brooks the actual human Costanza to Bradley Beal. Lot to work with here. So the Suns over under was 31 and a half. I went under Michael Pina on the ringer wrote some. He was doing an increasingly crazy predictions piece and one of the predictions was that the Suns would have the worst defense in the league. So just those two small events. Peena making a crazy prediction and everyone on our Podcast. I think going under has now turned the Suns fans into the you didn't believe in us. It's us against the world. It's like, well, your over under was 31 and a half wins. Like nobody believed in you. And this is a great story. You have an awesome coach, you play really hard. Guys like Gillespie showed up. Brooks treats every game like it's a game seven. I think all this is awesome. And the crazy thing about it is it was a complete 180 from how Ishba built the Team McBean with. Right? He did the new owner syndrome. I got to do something fast. I'm going to trade everything for Durant. Oh, let's get Bradley Beal. And just he's trying to put it together like it's a fantasy team and now he's attempting to put it together like a real basketball team. So I think to just call that a Costanza kind of belittles how cool it is that they pulled off all the stuff they pulled off. The biggest thing is they hired an awesome coach, Jordan Ott. And I was texting somebody in league about this today about it feels like we have more good coaches than we've ever had before. And a lot of them are younger. A lot of them are analytics based on Nets, Raptors, Celtics, Suns. You go on down the line. There are just these young guys that come in. You watch the teams, they have a specific identity. They have players that fit that identity. And it's really cool to watch. So if you're going to talk about like, is this an actual way to do something a Costanza where you just go against yourself? The obvious next team to try this would be the Sacramento Kings, a team that has been the most pathetic franchise of the century. I would say by NBA purposes. I wouldn't say that lightly, but I think it's true. Probably in the bleakest situation they've been in in a long time where they just have not a lot of assets and a lot of contracts on tradable. They're basically everything is gearing toward can they get a top four lottery pick now? And yet they're still playing all these veterans trying to win games. I don't understand what the Kings doing. There's a million things we could say about the Kings. Could the Kings go Castanza and what would that mean? I think that would basically mean they just ask Vivec what to do, he gives a recommendation, and then they just do the opposite. That would be the full Costanza and also a pretty good idea for a franchise. So it worked for the Suns, even though I think it belittles how much smart thought they put in everything. But I think that King should be the next Costanza team. And I like the theory. Next one. This is a text from every single Laker fan friend that I have in my life because I've gotten over the last two hours, and it's some combination. I just did an amalgam of all the texts I've gotten. You're an evil genius. You launched this Game over podcast with Rich, Paul and Max Cameron solely so you could destroy the Lakers, and it's working. First of all, I would never do that. As. As much as I despise the Lakers, I would never use a ringer podcast to try to bring them down. That. That just. That feels like bad karma, feels like something bad would happen with the. With the Celtics. So how dare you on that? This podcast has made a lot of news for the Lakers stuff, especially this week. And if you haven't listened to it, it's Rich and Max. They've known each other forever. It's a really good podcast. My one. I won't call it a fear, but my one question with it was, is Rich going to be candid? He's still an agent and a power broker. All these things tied to LeBron, obviously. Is he going to be candid? Is he going to be candid about the Lakers? He's been incredibly candid. And I was walking around LA on Monday, listening to it, and all of a sudden he's talking about how the Lakers need Jaren Jackson, and then it's like, well, they would have to give up something to get him, and maybe Austin Reaves if they don't want to pay him. And it sounded like my podcast, but Rich is the broad's agent. I love it. I think this is great. And by the way, this is what's happened with podcasts the last 10 years. We've had players like Draymond, and those type of guys have started. Paul, George, Jalen, Brunson, all of these guys have podcasts where they just talk about their life and they talk about the sport like they're fans. And now Rich is doing it, but he's the most powerful agent in the sport. It is fascinating. I couldn't be more delighted that the ringer is involved. And if it's caused trauma for Laker fans and disarray behind the scenes, I can't say that was the intention, but it's a pure delight to me as a Celtic fan to just watch this happen. So, yeah, unintended consequence. But I've been really enjoying the podcast. Go, Rich. Next question. Speaking of rich, it's a LeBron question. It's from Sam, and Sam says.

[Kenny]

He'S.

[Bill Simmons]

Trying to figure out what would LeBron have to do to pass. It's a long email and I'll just try to summarize it. Basically, if you get six rings to match MJ, LeBron is at two, Miami, Cleveland, 20, 20. So he's got four. Yeah, four. He's behind. He's beyond Kobe. I mean MJ six, Kobe, Duncan five, LeBron four. He's asking basically what. What would have to happen for him to get the last two? And do it, does it count if he's like a coach or a GM or even an owner? My short answer would be no. I think he has to be a player and I think he can win the post playing career. Mj, by all accounts, pretty horrible basketball owner. No offense. Mj, I think you're the goat. You're the best basketball player I've ever seen. You're a bad owner. You just were. So he can beat him in the NBA player afterlife as a GM owner or whatever. I don't think that's going to be hard. Let's say he leaves the Lakers and he goes to Cleveland. Sam's thing is, could he, could he be a 6 man lead the bench? What if he even won 6 man of the year and maybe finish some games for a team and won the other two rings, would that discount the rings at all? I don't think so. I didn't feel that way with Karl Malone. When Karl Malone was going for a ring on the 04 Lakers, he wasn't one of the two best players on the team, but he was still a really important player on the team. So if LeBron went to Cleveland, became a six man, closed some games, they won two more titles. That's six rings. I'm sorry. Like it. It doesn't just take one player to win a ring. It takes about nine and there's four or five crucial ones, plus the coach, plus the GM. Like I think that would count. I wouldn't feel like he was chasing it as long as it was organically. He was really part of the. So the last part of this question is, would success in a basketball role other than players significantly alter his legacy? I think it would because we just saw it with Jerry West. Jerry west was the logo. Jerry west was one of the eight best basketball players of all time when he retired. Maybe one of the six Best even in my book. Now he's in the pantheon. He's one of the top 15 still. But then he had this whole other career as a front office executive that made completely changed his career. So if LeBron chooses to go that way, I think it would affect him. Next question is from Tyler. If linsanity happened in 2026 instead of 2012, would it be a bigger story, smaller story, or no difference? I think smaller. There was a 2012. Whatever was happening with basketball and the Internet, basketball writing, Twitter, there were all these variables and we were at. We were right in the middle of it. It was the first year of Grantland and it was really when it felt like just a lot of things were changing. It was post lockout, it was accessible clips. Was the first year you could actually go on Twitter and watch a dunk that you just heard about or somebody forwarded you. And there was really good basketball writing. I mean, that was, I think my favorite time ever for journalism was that early 2000 and tens where we just had blogging still mattered. Long form journalism was still on the Internet. There were a lot of good writers. There were people willing to take chances with their voices and their angles and Linsanity was perfect. And that was some of my favorite stuff that we wrote at Grantland that year. I remember Jay Kang had some good pieces. I had a bunch of fun writing about it back then. We had a bunch of NBA people that wrote good stuff and just general. It just felt like it fit into everything that was happening in 2012. Now I just feel like there's so much stuff going on all the time. I don't know if anything would cut through like that in the same way. So that's my answer. I might be wrong. All right, next question is from Will from Somerville who asks. I got a bunch of these too, about the Celtics trading for Jaren Jackson. There were rumors that they were interested in. I'll just say when there are rumors about the Celtics being interested in players, I never believed them because nothing leaks from the Celtics ever. Like when they traded for Derrick White. It's not like that was being rumored for a week or a month. I always feel like they're very stealth under the radar and then shit happens and then you find out about it. So when I hear stuff like the Celtics are interested, I just tend to not believe it. The Jaren Jackson thing's interesting though, because Memphis clearly should be trying to trade him and Ja and just reboot and completely start over. Will said as a Celtic fan, he likes the idea of adding his elite rim protection, floor spacing. I'm out on this one. I'm not a Giant Jaren Jackson fan. I liked him when he was in the 25 million range as a center, but his next four years started next year. 49, 50.5, 52 million and then 53.5 million player option, which I'm just going to guess he's picking that up. I don't love when big guys don't rebound. I actually think he needs to be next to a center. Like why Zach Eady was so interesting when he got to play next to Zach Eady or when he got to play with Steven Adams way in the past, you know, three point shooter. I don't really love his low post stuff and to pay that much money to him and now Jalen and now Tatum, like that's my team. I don't, I can't get out of that. So that leaves the Celtics with no outskirts. There's trades that they could do. Like they could definitely do the Simons contract with Hauser with like Luca Garza or something. You could patch up the contracts, take the extra money and pull it off. But I would just be against it. I would not want to do this. And with that said, if they end up trading for him in two weeks, I'll talk myself into about 10 minutes. But right now I'm against it. Next question. Matt Edwards in Richmond, Virginia. Is Hilary Swank the Steve Nash of multi Oscar winners? Or is Steve Nash the Hilary Swank of multi NBA MVP winners? Also, who should be more offended? It's from Matt in Richmond. Obviously you came to the right place for this question. I would say I'm the perfect person in the universe to answer this. I think Steve Nash should be more offended. And I say this with all due respect to Hilary Swank, who won two Oscars, two best actress, not a long list for two best actress Oscars. She won for Million Dollar Baby, a movie that if somebody gave me on blu ray or 4k uhd, I would throw in the garbage. Only want to see that movie once. I'm still mad at it. And then she won for Boys Don't Cry, which is a really good independent movie. She's great that. Here's where this falls apart though, because you could say, well then Nash won his two weird MVPs and it's just like Hilary Swank winning two Oscars is weird. Nash winning the two MVPs is weird. Here's where this goes off the rails. The rest of her career just doesn't add up to those two Oscars and really it's one of the strange IMDBs you've ever seen. I think probably the third best movie she made was Insomnia which I really like. Chris it's on the rewatchables list. Christopher Nolan, Robin Williams, Al Pacino who can't sleep the whole time. I can't sleep. Next three maybe the Hunt, Logan Lucky and the Core for movies you'd ever want to see again. It falls off fast. Plus she has the next Karate Kid which is how we got to know her. Not a good movie. And then she had season 890210 she joins as Carly the waitress who works at the Peach Pit and has a kid and falls for Steve Sanders. They wrote her off the show. Steve Nash does never have. He doesn't. I guess you could say the Suns traded him. So when they had I think it was Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd, they had too many point guards and they traded him to Dallas. That's the equivalent of being written off a show. But I would say not being able to find chemistry with Ian's earing in season eight of a long running TV show and they had to send her away. It was one of those things like my mom got sick, I have to leave and she was just gone. I think I and Ziri may have even cried for a brief second. But that's Nash has nothing like that. And then Nash's whole career. I mean Nash was one of the 10 best point guards of all time. I have him low 40s in my pyramid somewhere in the 40 to 44 range. I can't remember where the 05 suns and then that whole 7 seconds or less Suns. I'm widely credited and rightly so for saving basketball. I don't think you remember how terrible it was to watch basketball back then. So. And it was just the defense and the shit. It was just everything was a rock fight and the Suns kind of opened the doors for that. And then the 2010 Suns team which I think really could have made the finals and had some bad luck in the Lakers series but he was in the title mix there for 5 or 6 years in a real way. Plus with the 02 and 03 Mavs he was in there. I just think he had a way better career. So I think Steve Nash should be more offended. Mark Atkinson I get this question a lot too about basically upon Tatum's eventual return. Are you at all worried about the Celtics falling into their old habits of walking the ball, playing not to lose and then the games isoball that stuff because everybody loves watching the Celtics team. So it's weird because one of the things people seem to think is that they're playing with more pace, which technically when you watch it eye test wise it seems like there's more pace. But they're 30th in pace in the NBA. So it's not like Tatum's going to slow that down because he's not. I think the difference, the part they need to figure out is more of this is being initiated by Derek White and Pritchard and then Simon's when he's in through the guards, through Jaylen Brown and the big guys that come out and set picks for them are just better at it. Kata and Garza. So how is Tatum going to fit into this new identity? To me it's a good problem to have. He's taking minutes from guys like Shireman and even somebody like Hauser. Hugo Gonzalez, who's one of the best plus minuses in the league, but he'll probably lose some minutes. But Tatum, they're going to ease him in when he comes back. He'll play probably two 9 minute parts of the half. And with his defense and his rebounding and his, his scoring and the fact that he was probably the fourth best player in the league when he went out like I'm not worried about this. Could there be a little Tatum Brown stuff? Who knows? Is there a little alpha doggy? We'll see. But the team is currently constructed is not winning anything. They're not winning a title. Tatum might change their ceiling a little bit. So please don't overthink this everybody. Next question is from Aaron. He talked about recently. We did that mailbag thing about NBA when I had Mahoney on to do the NBA mailbag about NBA awards for players that were best at certain skills. They basically named after Steph Curry, who year after year was just by far the best at shooting. Aaron says you could take it even further and recognize the best weirdo skill each year. I love this. As Satanist takes over the game, let's recognize niche skills that are never captured in box scores. For instance, TJ McConnell's ability to continually steal the inbounds pass, which he just did the other day. It actually like won them a game. Like he, he does this sneaky, you know, almost like he's hiding in the bushes and then pounces out. It's amazing to see people continually fall for it through the years. If tape didn't exist of him doing this all year long. So that's from Aaron. I love this. So I was thinking the weirdo skill finalists and I just did this. I probably left out two people. I'll be interested in Zach Lowe's take. Maybe Zach Lowe will tackle this as well on his podcast Weirdos Go finalist for me. McConnell and the inbound steals. I think Alvarado had that title for a second and McConnell just took it back. Derek White guard blocks the best bet. The best player prop you can do is the Derek White block. With any other result you want from a Celtic game, he always gets one. Especially if it's a big game. Guaranteed. He's also he has another weirdo skill which is the same one Dave Jacoby can back me up. Jacoby for if you're. If you're watching or listening, back me up. Derek White really good at breaking up 2 on ones and 3 on ones which is its own basketball skill. And not to toot my own horn, not to compare myself to NBA star Derrick White, but I was really good at breaking up two on ones and three on ones. And Jacoby saw it for years and years. You just kind of lay low and then you use quick hands and you try to strip them before they before as somebody makes it. You kind of play possum with it and then you jump on it and he's one of the best I've ever. The best ever at this was Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd was either he would strip the guy, he would draw, he would draw a charge. It was almost like if it was a two on one or a three on one and Kid was the guy back. You felt like Kid had an advantage. There's never been anyone like that. White is really good. I would throw him in there guard blocks or that the Yokage 70 yard one handed passes in there. Pritchard's end of the quarter shots. I wish he was a little better at this. I really wanted to put this in there because they run anytime there's four seconds are left. They always have Pritchard. They cut it out and he's really good at getting the shot he wants. But he's been cold lately. I don't think he'd win. And then this might be too good of a skill But Michael Porter Jr. S coming off a pick off balance almost like he's 45 degrees floating and being able to straighten up and shoot is unlike any other. And he's been doing it by the way since the Nuggets. He's just shooting them more in the nets. But that's the one that Always makes me marvel. I just think it's so freaking hard to do that. And when I watch him playing the Nets, I'm always like, how does he do that? So I think that counts as a weirdo skill. But I would say pritchard would be minus. I'm sorry, McConnell would be minus 180 to win that award. Ricky Brackett asks, since it appears an NBA team is nowhere close to coming to Seattle, I have another idea. Let's make Seattle University an awesome college team that becomes the city's team. Couldn't a rich guy basically buy a coach and some awesome players and make them one of the top 10 teams in the country? Short answer yeah, I love this idea. This is one of the best ideas we've ever heard. Seattle's not getting an NBA team anytime soon. If anything, if they do expansion, it's just going to be Vegas and that's it. I don't see Seattle. I don't see it happening. I'm sorry. They just. Seattle University just rejoined the wcc, which is the one with Gonzaga. All those teams, Pepperdine's in there, whoever. Just blow everyone out. Rich guy. There's rich people in Seattle. Just go in. All of a sudden, Seattle, you people are buying the merch. Great idea. I love it. I think Al J Baylor went there too. So rename the arena the Al Ja Baylor Arena. This could work. End of the game situations. Amir Shur writes in about how do we fix close games turning into a free throw parade. What if we make fouls in the final two minutes, result in three free throws instead of two? With that strongly discouraged intentional fouling. I was there for three free throws to make two as a kid. I think it was the 1980 season somewhere around there. A complete abomination. Please never do that again. I would go the other way. In the final minute, if a team is up by four points or more and they get fouled, they go to the free throw line. That first free throw, if they make it, counts as two and we just keep the game moving and the guy gets credit for two free throws, even if it's on one shot. If he misses the first one gets to take the second one. So it's still advantage to the shooting team. But I really think that would move along. I think how about this? Find me somebody who disagrees with that idea. We're going to have less free throws. I think everyone's like, great. I would also. You cannot call a timeout after a timeout. I've been saying this for 20 years. I think I've been saying it ever since. I have a call. No timeouts after a timeout and we're good. Chris Leary asked about the where did you come from award which he really liked for that was my idea for the break. The most improved player. Instead do a breakthrough player, the where the fuck did you come from Award he tweaked it to could it be a guy last season who had no chance at having his own shoe, but now as we're voting for the awards, he actually now has a chance to have his own shoe. I thought that was pretty good. So he said, like people like Jalen Johnson, Stefan Castle, et cetera, people that before the year he would have said no way that guy's going to have a shoe by the end of the year. Like that guy might have a shoe. It did prompt me to look at all the people who have a shoe and I was kind of stunned. LeBron, Durant, Ja. Not sure how much longer Ja is going to have a shoe. Giannis, Booker, Wemby has one. Cade's got one coming next year. That's all with Nike. Shay's of Converse, Jordan Brands, Luka Tatum, Zion Russell, Westbrook probably coming to an end soon. Adidas, Harden, Edwards, Dame, Donovan, Mitchell. I mean we're already like 16 players. Curry is a free agent right now, but he'll have one soon. CJ McCollum is Lee Ning Kawhi's at New Balance. Austin Reeves is at Rigor.

[Kenny]

Rigor.

[Bill Simmons]

361 degrees. 361. Whatever you call they have Aaron Gordon. Puma has lamello ball and the scoot zero which matches the number of minutes he's played this year. And then Anta has Klay Thompson and Kyrie. That's a lot of guys. So it's almost like the ones that don't seem to have one are Jokic, which is hilarious. Who's been the best part of this decade hands down doesn't have a shoe and a couple others. But I like that idea of the oh, he might get a shoe now would be a fun goofy word. I'm keeping track of all these through at the end of next year. All right, two more. Next question. This is from Mike Grandy and he has a theory on the best trade of the year. It's a conspiracy theory. So he's activated Conspiracy bill. He mentions how Halberton hurt his calf in the finals of game two. The Pacers traded their first round pick that year for next year's first round pick to Atlanta right before game five. And he hurt the calf even more in game five. And he's wondering, did they do the trade as an insurance policy for exactly what happened? Everyone keeps saying they got lucky, it was a cap move. Mike Grandy thinks they did the deal as insurance in case something worse happened to his calf that they knew he was playing on. It was too risky, and it was almost like an insurance policy. I gotta be honest, even Conspiracy Bill wants no part of this. It's good. He appreciated it. He likes the way you're thinking. You're thinking outside the box. You checked a lot of Conspiracy Bill boxes. Staying away from that one, not staying away from this one. From Marcus in New York, my friends and I are 30 and we're recently talking about how crazy it must have been when the NBA Finals were interrupted by the OJ Car chase. I can tell you it was amazing. I've talked about this before, but I was in Portchester, New York at my buddy Jim Grady's house with him and our buddy camp and a couple other people, and we were drinking and we were going to go out and we ended up watching this finals in the car chase and we never actually went out and we just could not believe that O.J. simpson was being chased around. Marcus asks who would be the 2026 equivalent to OJ from a fame talent standpoint to be in this exact situation? His first thought went to Barkley and Shaq. Then he asked if it was a basketball player interrupting the Super Bowl. If you need a cross sport interruption, if it was Shaq with the super bowl cutaway. He goes in a lot of directions here and then asks who the least famous talented athlete they would cut away from the super bowl to if they were in a car chase like OJ and he said Carmelo might be the border for basketball. He thinks the news waits until the commercial break for Carmelo. But if it was Dwayne Wade, they cut away during the game. And then he asked for my lines. He said, football breezes the line, baseball Pujols. Great question. So if you're using the OJ Blueprint, because OJ Was massively famous, you could see OJ behind me. See that poster right there behind me? It's a spot built OJ Poster and it says the Juice is on the loose. And it was made well before he actually was on the loose. It's a super famous athlete who remains super famous after they stop playing. That would be one. It would have to be a complete suppress. Goes without saying, it would have to be somebody that everyone likes and That's a tough thing to say in 2026, but there's a like test that you could say people that you're just instinctively like, ah, I love that guy. We all loved OJ and they're in the, in the 70s, 80s, early 90s, especially with naked Gun. We were all in on him. So my nominees, none of these are the winner are Charles Barkley, Serena Williams and Jason Kelsey. I was really proud of the Serena Williams idea because you think it's male, but what if we switch over? Everybody loves Serena Williams. Serena Williams, Charles Barkley, Jason Kelsey nominees and none of them are the winner because the winner is Peyton Manning. It's clearly Peyton Manning. If I think they would cut away from any sporting event. If Peyton Manning was trying to escape the police after a murder involving his wife and a waiter. I don't care what the it could be the Oscars. It could be anything. They're cutting away to Peyton Manning in the white Bronco cut off line. Guys. I have Wade for the NBA, David Ortiz for baseball, and ironically, Eli Manning for football. I thought that was funny how it all came around with the Manning brothers. So yeah, I'm pretty sure this will never happen again. I think the OJ Car chase, which was the most unbelievable TV experience, I think of my lifetime, it's in the running. Pretty sure it's not replicable. All right, we're going to take a break and then I'm going to do my All Star picks. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The divisional round, I call it round two, is where the NFL's best take center stage. And with everything on the line, FanDuel is turning on playoff mode. I wish I could turn on playoff mode because all customers get a profit boost pack every NFL playoff game day waiting for you in the app. More boosts mean more ways to level up your playoff bets and FanDuel makes it fast, easy and fun to get in on the playoff action. If your bet wins, you'll get paid instantly, so visit fandom.com BS grab your profit boost pack every NFL playoff game day. Good luck. You must be 21 + President select states or 18 + in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration, max wager amount. See [e-mail] Gamprom Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChadConnecticut this episode is brought to you by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, for your car, and for much more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When Life hits you with a full court press, get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, I'm back. I'm gonna quickly go through my all star picks. Thanks to everybody who sent in a question. By the way, it was fun to it was a mini mailbag that somehow ended up being almost 40 minutes. So classic me All Star picks. I'm gonna try to make these really quick and then we can bring in Con knipple. We had to hand in starters today for the West. I did sga, I did Joker, I did Anthony Edwards. I think those were the three that had to be in. No question. Don't need to make the case for any of them. My fourth was Steph Curry, who is averaging 29 a game, 47% field goal, 39% from three. He's Steph Curry and selfishly I want to see him in the game. So shoot me. It's basically him versus Jamal Murray and Devin Booker for that spot. And I thought long and hard about giving that to Jamal Murray because I think he's been amazing this year. He's been 25, 4 and 8, 48% shooting, 44% from 3. He's been awesome. You think about last year, early November, how depressed everybody was about how bad he looked. He had just signed that contract and it felt like he had sunk cost potential for the Nuggets and now he's come like a bad out of hell and I really wanted to vote for him. But Curry's one of the 10 best players of all time. 12 best players. Whatever your list is, he's in 10 for me and he's having a really good season and it's not his fault that he's on this weird warriors team that he's on fifth one. You could have talked Lena Murray for this spot too. It's a begrudging one. It's Luka Doncic clearly has to be on this averaging 34, game 34, 8, 9. Typical Luca season. It's tailed off a little from the ceiling of where it seemed like we were going to be a couple couple months ago. First month of the season when it seemed like it was revenge. Luca, the defense is really bad. The. The. The mono ball is really bad sometimes, too. I'm not positive he's that fun to play with some nights, but as a force of nature, I don't know how you don't have them on there. So west starters, SGA Joker, Ant Curry, Luca. I don't think any of that is that controversial for the East. Giannis has played enough games, I think, to be on, so I'm putting him on 25 games and then Jalen Brown. If he's not on, I don't know what we're doing. I think he's an MVP candidate as well, averaging 30 a game. One of the many reasons why the Celtics are a two seed. Three guards I have. After that, I have Maxi, Cade and Brunson, in that order. And it's interesting some people have that ordered a little differently and might go Cade, then Brunson, then Maxi. I would have Maxi first. I think what he's been able to do on that kooky Sixers team where you never know who's playing night to night, the most reliable other player they have is a rookie. You never know if Embiid's playing. You don't know if Georgia's playing. It's just a bizarre team. And night after night, he either brings that they're down 10, and he'll just max it up for two minutes and bring them back. He's relentless. I think he's been really good at the end of games, unusually good at the end of games, especially because, you know, he's probably shooting and I don't know how he's not the first guard out of all those guards. Cade's been great and is the biggest reason Detroit is good. And if you want to say Cade over Maxi, that's fine, but both of them have to be on there and then Brunson as the third guy. And Brunson's still looming if the Knicks can get going as MVP candidate. So Giannis, Jalen, Maxi, Cade and Brunson for that. Okay, reserves for the West. This is what I have. I have four locks for me. Jamal Murray, Devin Booker. I still have sengun, and you could feel sengun when he wasn't in those Rockets games. You know, to have a big guy who's 22, 9 and 6, I just think he's the one that tilts the rockets so they become really unusual and really hard to play when they just seem like they have too much size and too much offense and Once you remove him out, they seem a little bit more normal. So Murray, Booker, Sengun and then Wembanyama has to be on there. I don't care that he's played 25 games. I don't care that he's probably going to get to 1800 minutes for the season. Whatever he ends up in. He's 24 and 11 and three, three blocks a game. They played the Celtics Saturday night and he was on a minute limit and every minute he was out there it felt like they were going to go on a 10 nothing run. The stuff he does on defense, which you don't need to hear me expound on it for 10 minutes, but it's the most important defensive thing anyone's doing. He's in everyone's head at all times. Even Jaylen Brown who all year was able to get any two point shot he wanted and able to go to the basket anytime he wanted. There was a couple times he was just like, ah, I'm pulling this back out, okay. But Wemby stuffed him in the second half on one play that Jalen's gotten it all year. Wemby's like, no thanks. He tilts the floor in all these different ways so that a 12 footer now becomes a 15 footer. And then offensively it's getting better and better with figuring out how to use him. Against the Celtics they won the game by just going to Wemby over and over again right around the foul line and have him shoot over people. And he may it feels like he's going to make it every time. So he has to be on there. That's nine. I'm just. I tilt all star toward the proven famous guys sometimes. Everybody's got their own method for it. But to me KD has to be in averaging 26, 5 and 5. There's good advanced metrics with him too. And eye test wise, end of the game still seems like he's 95% of where he was seven years ago. It's amazing. Have to have him Abdia on Portland doing 26, 7 and 7 keep them near 500 which makes no sense at all. And it was a team that when you thought in the west was just going to have no chance just because how lopsided the west was. But he's been. I don't know where this one ranks on biggest. God damn it for the wizards that you've had this century of just like ah, God damn it. But he's got to be way up there. And then the last one I have so on the bubble before I say who I gave the last spot to, Kawhi was the toughest cut. I just think the team record disqualified him. It's not his fault they're 16 and 23 but he has been on the team the whole year and they're 16 and 23 and as good as he's been for the last month or so I just somebody's going to get cut and it's going to hurt. Brooks was another one because he's the tone setter of that Suns team along with Booker and I just love what he's doing game to game and how competitive he is and I think the culture that he brings in really matters. Never thought I'd say that about Dome Brooks, Chad Holmgren. Sure, it's just weird to only have one OKC guy. Amen Thompson was another one as a two way guy. Also averaging 18 a game. Marketing with the scoring and then I would add Fox in here until about 10 days ago but I felt like he's gone backwards a little bit and Castle is another one. I don't think they've done quite enough. My twelveth spot goes to Randall on Minnesota because that team has really rounded into being an actual contender and Randle is now at 22, 7 and 5. He's 50%. They're plus 6.2 when he plays. I test wise him and Edwards. I just like them together. I really feel like they figured out him, Gobert, Edwards and just how those three guys work. I really enjoyed watching Randall this year and I wanted to reward a second guy from that team. So I would rather go Randall than Kawhi and I think if you switched Kawhi and Randle, I don't know if Minnesota has a better record with Kawhi. I'll just say that plus he's not as reliable as a durability standpoint. So that's who I have. SGA Joker, Ant Curry, Luca, Starting Murray, Booker, Shengun Wemby and then KD Abdya and Randall. That's in the west, in the East. Already said as the starters, Maxi Jalen, Cade Brunson, Giannis Mitchell was the toughest cut. He's got to be in there. He's averaging 30 a game for it typically week after week. Just a Cavs team that seems like you're on a double date with a couple that you're driving home and you're like oh man, you think they're going to break up. That's how you feel about every Cavs home game. Jalen Johnson has to be on there 24, 10 and 8. And they traded Trae Young to make it his team. We'll see if he can deliver. Scotty Barnes 19, 8 and 5, 50% shooting. Some. Some bully ball defense. Some bully ball stuff in general. There's a physicality to him that he's always had, but I feel like he's channeling it better than ever. He's gotta be on and Toronto is overachieved. He's the biggest reason Jalen Duran up to 18, 11 and 2 this year. 63% shooting and a physicality and an intimidation presence. Just an old school. You can see him on the 2004 pistons which is the highest compliment you could play. He absolutely could have played on that team in one of those spots and you wouldn't have lost a beat. I love how competitive and hostile he is in a good way, not a bad way. So he has to be on. For me. I had to put Michael Porter Jr. On is averaging 26 a game, eight rebounds. I look at it this way because this is. I think they have the worst record of any all star I put on and I'm deliberately zagging from my same Kawhi take that I had earlier. But there's less less all stars in the east so it's more defensible. If it was in the west he wouldn't have made it. There's been eight to nine games this year where he's just been the best player on the court or he's going against somebody who is a top 10 or a top 15 player and matching that dude. Which is the same case for Jalen being an all NBA guy and an MVP candidate. You have to have a guy like that in the league now because the league is so deep and so good. You kind of need your ver. And Abdi has been the way for Portland and Cade's been the way for Detroit. You go through. If you don't have that guy, you get in trouble. That's like the case for why Sacramento is in trouble among many other reasons. They just don't have that guy to match the other good guys. Porter's just been. If you didn't know anything, if you're in a coma for the last five years and you just watched this season, you watched him play, you would have thought he was like a five time all star or something. It doesn't make a lot of sense. And I think he's an incredibly important trade piece. Especially if Golden State can get him, which I've talked about earlier. If Golden State can get him. I don't think they win the title with him, but it raises their ceiling and he's exactly what they need. Somebody who can create his own shot. Another three point shooter, another variable. Heat check, eye, everything. If they can get him. Interesting. All right, two spots left for three guys. Norman Powell in the heat. Basically a.500 team. He's 24 a game and has played with a massive chip on his shoulder all season because he can't believe the Clippers traded him. And I've really enjoyed it. Plus 2.6 is advanced metric for on off towns. 21 and 12. Catch him on the right night. Seems great. Gets a little, little gamey every couple weeks. You'll watch a game with the Knicks every once in a while where it just doesn't seem like he's interested in guarding anybody. Zach and Mahoney, Zach's podcast last week, they talked about him and whatever Zach said I agreed with. Where it's like it seems like he should be an all star, but something's holding me off and I feel the same way. So we'll just complete the exercise here. Bam and Mobley are out, by the way. They're not even in the bubble. The third one is Derek White, who the way to ding him is he's only averaging 19 a game and he's shooting 40%. And part of that is because if you watch the Celtics, there's times when the plays break down and whoever has the ball with four seconds left just has to put up a bad shot. He's plus 8.2 on off. More importantly, they have the second offense net rating in the league. Miami has the 21st rating, for example, with Powell. So if you're saying, well, Powell's a better offensive player, what happens if you switch White and Powell? What happens to those two teams? Are the Celtics still the second best offense? Is Miami better than 21st offense? I don't know. It's an interesting thought exercise. I think Towns unfortunately has to make it because you really only have four bigs, Giannis and Duran and that's it. And you have too many guards and forwards and the Knicks probably could get two. So it comes down to White, Powell, and if white was shooting 44%, 43%, I'd feel better about it. But it's like 39.7. It's right on the cusp. I think he's. It's almost like if this was the MVP voting, I think he would be higher than Powell. But if we're just talking about all Star, somebody Killing it. And Miami doesn't have an all star. The Celtics already have one. I think I'd feel like a homer if I gave this to White. And I, as I joke about all the time, I like to take my vote seriously. So my heart says it's Derek White, but my heart also says that I might not thinking about it, be thinking about it rashly. So I'm going to go, pal. So Maxi, Jalen, Cade, Brunson, Yanis. Starting Mitchell, Jalen, Johnson, Barnes, Duran, Porter, Powell, Towns. Toughest cuts, Derek White and Kawhi. And I think if anyone gets injured. So we're already going to have. Jokic is, I would say, probably going to miss the all star game, but somebody will miss it between him, Wemby. So then maybe Kawhi makes it anyway, and then maybe Derek White makes it if there's an injury in the east. But I think that's the list. Those are my all star picks. Thanks for listening. Thanks for hearing me pontificate. We're going to take a break and come back with Charlotte's Khan Knipple. All right, we're taping this on a Tuesday afternoon. The most efficient rookie in the history of the NBA is here. Con Knippel. Do you know that?

[Kenny]

I did not.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you're shooting stats and all the. You're very efficient.

[Kenny]

Try to be.

[Bill Simmons]

People have been comparing you to players from the eight decades of the NBA, and they're like, you know who's really efficient? Con, you passed. Last time I had you on the pod, people still didn't. Still didn't totally know how to pronounce your name. Who are NBA fans now? It's like, I don't feel like you get any knuckles.

[Kenny]

Yeah, right. We got it set now, and you're.

[Bill Simmons]

Having a really, like, steady, awesome rookie year, which I don't fully understand because you're the youngest podcast guest we've ever had.

[Kenny]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. My daughter was the youngest, but she's May 2005 and you're August.

[Kenny]

August.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So you beat her?

[Kenny]

We beat her a couple months. That's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

But, yeah, I don't understand why you seem like you're 27 years old in these games. So what is it? How did you fit in so easily?

[Kenny]

Yeah, I don't know. I definitely have a more mature game. Just I growing up playing in, you know, adult men's leagues all the time. My dad's run a men's league in Milwaukee for 20 years, so had to develop that aspect of playing off the ball that, you know, youth Youth basketball doesn't really get you now.

[Bill Simmons]

Just trying to fit in.

[Kenny]

And without the whole AAU world, right, like, it's, you know, and the Instagram trainers and all that stuff, it becomes more about, you know, one on one skill and stuff. But playing in that men's league, I think you. You learn. Learn to grow and be more physical. How to move off the ball, all those things that. That are really important. Today's NBA and rebound. Rebounding.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the one thing I told you before the season. I said, don't forget to rebound. You're like six a game.

[Kenny]

Yeah, almost. I'm getting down there. I think I'm at five now.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, now your whole team's back. Yeah, I've been watching a lot. It's been my favorite league pass team. And even though your record when you're like 12th in the east, but you've been in a lot of these games, you haven't had lamelo the whole time. And lamelo is somebody I think I've changed my opinion on a hundred times. But he's looked awesome lately. And it's the first time you can see your team like, oh, this is what the team could look like, right?

[Kenny]

Yeah. And we're playing our brand of basketball. We want to play fast, want to play unselfishly and together. And we're a good rebounding team. And we could hang ourselves our hat. Hang our hat on that. You know, on the offensive end. I don't know if you watch diabate at all, Moussa, but, man, he's just all over the glass every night. You know, it's a fun brand. Fun brand of basketball to play.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Everybody seems like they give a crap.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Likable team, good future.

[Kenny]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

We did the generic basketball stuff. I want to dive into rookie season. So you go in. Training camp starts September.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You've never had a job before? Really? Does Duke count as a job? I don't know. I guess you're getting an I. O. Money.

[Kenny]

Yeah. It still doesn't, though. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You're like a student.

[Kenny]

You're in class, and that's fun.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have a job, so. All right, walk me through. Do you buy a place? Do you rent? Like, how did that whole go? How'd that whole thing go in Charlotte? What do you do?

[Kenny]

Yeah, I rent.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Got a nice apartment.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have, like, family member, anything? Anybody with you or you just on your own?

[Kenny]

No, I'm. I'm on my own.

[Bill Simmons]

On your own. Interesting. No roommate, nothing?

[Kenny]

No roommate by myself. Which Obviously first time ever, which I've kind of enjoyed. Yeah, it's kind of cool having own space. I was worried about that kind of at first, but you know, that's new. And to do it when you're 20.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Is a little bit earlier than others, but I'm in like a nice part of Charlotte. A lot of young people, growing city. So good, good spot to be.

[Bill Simmons]

You're just so much more impressive than I was as a 20 year old. We moved off campus when I was 20 and I was sharing a room with my buddy Jacko with two beds and we lived with two other guys and we thought like we were really blast though. Yeah. We had four people crammed in a small two bedroom place. We thought we were really living it. You're by yourself living in Charlotte. All right, so training camp starts. Did you get a car? You leased a car?

[Kenny]

Yeah, I bought a car.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so you buy a car. Are you like a cheaper guy? Are you like an extravagant guy?

[Kenny]

Probably say cheaper. I've got a Ford Explorer.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Oh, that's smart.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. So practice starts. You fitting in. Do you feel like the rookie? Are people nice to you? What's happening?

[Kenny]

Yeah, I mean, we. We got a great squad of just, you know, guys that kind of embrace you right away, you know? You know, sometimes it doesn't happen. Obviously we have a younger team, which.

[Bill Simmons]

Is good for you, I think. Right? Yeah.

[Kenny]

And we have four rookies.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

So you're coming in with three other guys, kind of going through the same stuff, but also just the vets on the team. Being really receptive to a rookie is not something. Giving us advice is not something you see on every team. So I hear.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Plessy, you were part of this incredible rookie class.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That. I kind of can't believe how good it is.

[Kenny]

It's a good group, you know, it's fun to see the success around the league every night. That's a good group of guys. Hopefully it continues that way.

[Bill Simmons]

And how many of them have you known since you were like 13?

[Kenny]

You know, I was a little bit later onto the.

[Bill Simmons]

The circuit.

[Kenny]

Yeah, Like I was playing UiBL, but I'm from Wisconsin and I was getting really invited to some of the. Some of the bigger camps early on. But you're aware of the guys and playing in the Nike circuit, you play against a bunch of the players. Played Dylan Harper, Liam McNeely. Like all those guys we'd play on and dare Queen. We played on the circuit.

[Bill Simmons]

So you see the Queen stuff where they trade the future pick for him. Everyone goes nuts, including me. Like, how can you do that? Well, I didn't like that. And then put a protection on it. But then he starts playing, and he's just as good as he was in high school and college. And then people are like, okay, I didn't love the trade, but he's really good. Yeah. And his game just translated to the NBA, it seems.

[Kenny]

Seems like he was. He was awesome in high school. Yeah. Like, we playing in the NBA. MBPA has their camp in Orlando. Like, he just. Every time he threw it in there, it was like, basket, basket. And obviously super skilled. He's having a heck of a year.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Dylan. Dylan's fit in on a really good spurs team.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Flag's been. I mean, that's your guy.

[Kenny]

Yeah, he's. He's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty strange Dallas situation. For the most part, he's following that trade.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Kyrie's not there. Davis has gotten hurt multiple times. The season started up badly. They're playing a point. Were you surprised they're playing him a point guard? Seemed like a big ask.

[Kenny]

Yeah. I mean, I think for your first 10 games in the NBA, you're trying to figure it out. I feel like it's tough. I think he definitely embraced it, embraced the challenge. But, you know, that's tough to do playing out a position like that as your first time playing in the NBA at all. But I actually thought he did pretty solid.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. In a weird way. Probably not the greatest experience, but then also a great experience because you're literally thrown into the fire. You have to make all these decisions with the ball. So there's no way some of that. But you had the opposite. They're just. They put you in. You're doing all the stuff you're good at. You only have to worry about that. I don't know. I thought it was a little unfair, but it seems like he came out of it all right.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I mean, he's playing. He's playing great.

[Bill Simmons]

Now, is there like a Duke text thread with all your old guys or.

[Kenny]

No, we do. It's coach Carwell Seawell, his assistant, and he'll text us on a group chat at certain points. But, you know. Well, when we were in Cleveland, me and Sion went over to Tyrese Proctor's place for a little bit. Just hang out, enjoy some time together.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the most fun thing you did was you brought your entire team to your house.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which went viral for, like, two days. People love that for some reason.

[Kenny]

Yeah. I don't. I I didn't, we didn't think anything that it was that big of a deal. But yeah, I think people like knowing.

[Bill Simmons]

That NBA players are normal and that you would just go to somebody's house when you're on the road. I don't think people think of the players like that sometimes.

[Kenny]

Right. I mean, you know, we, we were on the plane and, and obviously I'm from Milwaukee, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Grant's like, where are we going to eat? Grant Williams? I was like, well, I'm going, I'm going home.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And they're like, oh, we're going to Khan's house, I guess. And then I thought about it. My parents were like, invite whoever you want. I was like, I think I'm gonna invite the whole team over. So yeah, the guys came and.

[Bill Simmons]

So what'd your mom make?

[Kenny]

Fajitas. Chicken fajitas.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh wow.

[Kenny]

Yeah, there's a nice Mexican grocery store in Milwaukee, El Rey. So she, she got all the, the fixings and everything from there and you know, just in the crock pot and yeah, the guys enjoy it. Like we don't get to do stuff like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Very often. Especially like when you're in Milwaukee, Detroit, like Cleveland, like it's cold, you don't, you don't really want to get out of the hotel. So that was a good experience for us.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I mean when I talk to different coaches, players, whoever, they all say the schedule is so unforgiving with like not being able to practice enough, not being able to actually do anything. Like you're in, you're in LA right now. You had a game Monday against Clippers, you have a game Thursday. You actually have a couple days to kind of hang out, maybe even have a practice, work on some stuff, relax. The schedule doesn't really work that way.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it's interesting. I can't even remember last time we had practice in our facility in Charlotte. It was probably two and a half weeks ago, three weeks ago.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's not good.

[Kenny]

And that's. Well just with how the schedule changed where you're basically playing every other night. Yeah, it makes it, I mean it makes it so hard to practice because your body can't really physically handle practicing on the in between day when you play every other night.

[Bill Simmons]

It needs a catch up day. I mean the good news is though, travels. Can you imagine doing this in the 70s when they had on the train flying, like coach doing trains and stuff? That would be crazy.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and then wearing Converse.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Wearing the shitty sneakers, like all that stuff. Eating like cheeseburgers at three in the.

[Kenny]

Morning, smoking cigarettes at halftime. Like I don't know how guys did it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's a little better now. Yeah. So you played 39 games the season started, I guess like October 24th range. So it's like 39 games in two and a half months.

[Kenny]

Right. And we played 39 games at Duke last year and that was a whole season.

[Bill Simmons]

So are we in rookie wall? When is the rookie wall? Is it 50 games or 40 games? I can't remember. Somewhere around here.

[Kenny]

I'm not sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you feel it yet? Do you feel it in your body?

[Kenny]

I think, I think it. Honestly, I feel like it's more mental than anything else. Like it just gets really repetitive and you know, it's just the. The same thing. Like your shoot around again today, going over to the gym in the morning.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

I think that finding a way to embrace that and enjoy that every day can get tough, especially for younger guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you have the wild card of you play with Lamello, who is such a wild card game to game and can go on these. I can't imagine what it's like to play with somebody like that. I mean that in a good way. Like, you just don't know when he's going to go off. Like he had that game the other night when he had 33 off the bench.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it seems like there's. It. It definitely seems like he has his bounce back. Right. And he's got his first step back and is starting to seem unstoppable again. But we haven't really seen a stretch like this in a while where he can just like stay healthy for four months. But when you're. When you're playing with him and then you're seeing the other guards in the league, like it feels like athletically and talent wise he's with those guys. Right?

[Kenny]

Right. Yeah. And I mean he's doing a really good job and I think, you know, training staff just trying to like manage his. His minutes to maximize the amount of games he can play and that's tough to do. Like when he's. It's tough to get in a rhythm sometimes when you're. You're going like, you know, 28 to 30 minutes. Yeah. You know you're going to come out or there's. There's some times in the fourth quarter when you know you want to be in there and affect the game. So he's been battling that and I just. He's been really locked in this year.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you gotten to the Point playing with him where you can kind of tell when he's about to go off. Like, you can notice when he's feeling it on the court almost.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And there's just some situations where he has the ball and especially in like transition where it's just like he has those alley oop passes that from like half court. It's like, how do you throw that when Brandon Miller's at the free throw line.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kenny]

And he's throwing. He's throwing it. It's like a quarterback anticipating just some of those plays he makes. Pretty head scratching.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then you had Miller come back and he's shown flashes of like, if you catch him on the right night, it feels like he's like going to be an all NBA guy, you know, and he could rebound. He's a little, in a weird way, like a really nice compliment to you because you guys both rebound. You guys can both shoot threes. You can both handle the ball and play without the ball. But I like the combo.

[Kenny]

Yeah. I think, you know, he's a really talented player and just the athleticism and you know, he has some of that, like chase down block stuff too, that he can just make plays like that, you know, that a lot of guys can't make just with his frame and his athleticism and it's a fun group to play with. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He seems easy to play with.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like all your bigs kind of know where to go and what to do and it's a fun team to watch. And I'm not even sure. I'm sure in the summer when they try to add to it, figure out what's next. I'm not even positive. I'm sure, like, rim protection would be something, but for the most part, it's got a nice nucleus. Yeah.

[Kenny]

I feel like when we have all our guys playing, we're in a good spot every night.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good upset team. It's like one of those teams. You'll be like a giant underdog somewhere. And I'll be like, I don't know. They got all their guys. I'd watch out for them tonight. All right, so you're going through the league, you've played just about it. You haven't played the Celtics yet.

[Kenny]

Haven't played the Celtics. They're one of my favorite teams to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

This year's been good, especially on film. Like we were watching because they played the Clippers recently.

[Bill Simmons]

I went to that game.

[Kenny]

Okay. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of killed them.

[Kenny]

Yeah. We were watching with Jalen Brown. Right. He had 50. Yeah. We were watching them just defensively and how they guarded, you know, Kawhi and Harden and they just have a bunch of guys that are always in the right position defensively. So we're just watching them, you know, how they shipped off the ball. It was a good game, good game to watch just how they go to the Clippers.

[Bill Simmons]

So is that part of the process you guys tried? Cause you have a really good coach. We had him in Boston for a little bit. But you try to. If you're playing a team, you watch a game where somebody did something successful against that team and figure out what they try to unlock what they did.

[Kenny]

Yeah. So we have a bunch of clips that we'll watch together as a team, just from games, but I think in general, just as a player in the league, like if you know who you're playing on the schedule or just. Just catching a game, because we all get league pass.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kenny]

Just catching a game of, you know who you're going to play is always good. And you see what, see what they want to do. Seeing it for a whole 48. Just as a. As a shooting your hotel room at.

[Bill Simmons]

Like one in the morning, just zipping through the NBA app trying to watch who you're watching.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's gotta be so much easier than the 70s or 80s.

[Kenny]

Yeah. The tape delay.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, yeah, you have tape delay. You have. No games were actually on, you wouldn't. If you had to queue up something, you would have had to go into like some video room and they would have had to have like the, the projector showing you clips.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I mean it's. It's the video. The video guys that we have, like do a really good job or even, I don't know, synergy. Have you heard of synergy?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We used to just.

[Kenny]

You just look up. I want to see all of Peyton Pritchard shot attempts or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kenny]

And you can watch them all.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you can scout yourself too. Right. Like you can look at every single time you dribbled off the pick, going right in what you did.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Like each, each move hotspots on the court. All that stuff is really interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the league. I was trying to figure out my all star stuff because I have a vote and I was. And I always write down everybody's points, rebounds, assist stats and then their shooting splits. And I'll do like PR at a couple things and I just put everybody on a list. The shooting stats are unbelievable now.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's. It's like. And you're kind of the poster boy of this next generation that, like just efficient everything where everybody's kind of like high 40s field goal.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Somewhere between 38 and 42, three point, 78 to 85 free throw. And it's like everybody.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Maxi's 31 a game.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But all his shooting splits are really good. It's not like he's like a volume shooter. Like, they're good shots.

[Kenny]

Yeah. I think the shot quality throughout the league is a lot better.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Where it's just an emphasis on, you know, at the rim, shots at the rim, twos, free throws and, you know, quality threes.

[Bill Simmons]

Open threes in the spots that, you know are the right spots.

[Kenny]

Right. And.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Or. And then I call them like shots of mastery. So, you know, like a guy like harden, like his. His step back, it's a shot of mastery.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kenny]

Or like a kawhi, you know, mid range, fall away. Those. Those type of shots that are really, maybe not. Or maybe not efficient for everybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

But for certain guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you have one of those. You have though, like right around the foul line, like when you do the hard dribble and yeah, you come back.

[Kenny]

A little bit straight away to the left.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah, that's that one that feels like your shot.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I like into that spot.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it feels like that 2.15 footer is coming back. Jalen reinvented himself this year with that. Like, he added two moves and he became an over 50% 15 footer guy out of nowhere.

[Kenny]

Yeah. I mean, if you can add. Add one of those shots in between, you just become a little. A little bit harder to guard.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Keep. Keep you honest. If you can shoot it really efficiently, those are good shots.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's felt like the league was 2, 3 happy there. I mean, there's still a bunch of threes, but the pace is. There's just more shots.

[Kenny]

Yeah, the pace is. The pace is crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Pace is crazy. Like Denver was at 124 a game before Jokic got hurt. I think like, that's like, that would have been inconceivable 20 years ago that anyone would average 114 a game.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You know?

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I like it. I. I think for the most part they've really figured out the rule stuff. I mean, I'm sure like, when you're out there, like how slow the last five minutes go. Must be annoying, right? With all the timeouts and reviews and.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just trying to stay like, keep your.

[Kenny]

Energy, the challenges and all that stuff. But I think the Challenges are good. I think they were a good addition.

[Bill Simmons]

Pro challenges. Have you played the FIBA where it's like, it kind of just goes like soccer almost. You haven't played in that year, right?

[Kenny]

No, I haven't.

[Bill Simmons]

You'll probably be on one of the teams we have pretty soon, I would guess. I predicted you for the 28 Olympic team. You were my dark horse when I went on Zach's pod and he got the. Whoa, I feel like I might be in on that one.

[Kenny]

We'll see. We'll see. That'd be awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

They're at a good pace. That'd be one of my better predictions. My football picks have been shit this year. That might have been my only good prediction.

[Kenny]

Yeah, that'd be pretty sweet.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Prove you right on that one.

[Bill Simmons]

But yeah, it does seem like there's more twos. The games are more interesting. There's more big guys, too. I feel like we have the most big guys we've had in like 25 years.

[Kenny]

Yeah, you know, the small ball thing was getting real popular there for a.

[Bill Simmons]

Can't do it anymore.

[Kenny]

Yeah, you got to have a good big.

[Bill Simmons]

Even you guys, that. The question with Charlotte even being competent this year was like, well, who's playing center? Like, they traded Mark Williams, but you've patched it together. There's like, we did it with the. I say we. Like I'm on the Celtics. We did it with Katie and Garza.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And all those guys do they set picks and they protect the rim. They can stretch it. Kaden knows he can't shoot threes. Garza shoots threes a little bit, but. So I don't know, it's a. Your generation is coming in and all the big guys know how to play 20ft from the basket instead of just like clogging the lane and you know what I mean? Like something has shifted.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I mean, I think just from an earlier age, I think guys are, you know, learning to play basketball in an applicable way to maybe future levels or higher levels of hoops.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, all the big guys want to shoot threes, Right. Every big guy you ever played with probably want to shoot threes, wants to.

[Kenny]

Stretch the floor and affect the game in that way. So I think we're going moving in the right direction, basketball wise.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we go through some of the guys you played against without getting you in trouble? So you played Giannis a couple times already. What's that experience like? I mean, there's no way you ever played against a seven foot alien who's just made out of Concrete before, right?

[Kenny]

Yeah, just. Just so strong.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you bounce off him ever? Do you have one of those plays where you just like, get swatted like a mosquito on a windshield or something?

[Kenny]

You know, he gets. He has the little chicken wing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

That he gets guys with, and it's really hard for the officials to see.

[Bill Simmons]

What is it? Explain it.

[Kenny]

He just, like. He loves going baselined. So he's on the baseline, and he'll. He'll kind of get you with a high elbow. If he gets you up in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh. To push you back a little bit, he'll just.

[Kenny]

No, he'll. He'll get it around you, around your body.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh.

[Kenny]

And kind of. Kind of. It's a. It's quick, so it's hard for the officials to see. And he's really, really good at it. And that chicken wing just kind of gets you. Gets you off, and it'll get you a baseline. It's really hard to stay in front of him. And then obviously, in the. In the full court, how he's mastered, like, the gather rules.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And all that stuff, it makes it really hard to guard.

[Bill Simmons]

It makes one of us. Because I have not mastered the gather rules. I just. I think I'm too old. I think it's a travel night every time. I just. Every time, like, travel up, then call it.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it's. It's. What's. One of the things that I've really had to work on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

That I've. I've gotten better at is, like. We've been working on, like, the low pickups, but as soon as you put that second hand on the ball, you get. That's a zero step. The step you're on. And then you get two.

[Bill Simmons]

Then you get two more.

[Kenny]

It's a different footwork. It's hard. It's a little bit tricky to learn, especially coming from college and high school, where they're calling Euro steps of travel.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

But, yeah, I think the way he does it, especially in the full court, how he can throw the ball to himself and then gather, and it looks like it's three steps, but it's not.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you played. We're taping this Tuesday. You played hard in last night. Who's. Another one who's. I don't understand how he does it. Where it seems like he's going 12ft with five steps, but it's two steps. Cause he used a gather, and he's going right, left, right. You can't even keep track of what he's doing.

[Kenny]

And, yeah, it's a Gray area, too. And it's really hard sometimes to officiate. And the guys that are good at it and work on it all the time becomes really effective.

[Bill Simmons]

Lamelo's got a little of it. He'll throw it out from side to side.

[Kenny]

He'll throw in the slow step, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you have to guard. I didn't see the Clipper game last night. Did you have to guard Kawhi at all?

[Kenny]

I was guarding Harden.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Jesus. What was that like?

[Kenny]

It was good. It was fun. You know, in the third quarter, he's. They put up. He moved into ninth.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. All time scoring.

[Kenny]

So they put that up on there. I'm like, man, this is pretty, pretty cool. Unbelievable. A top 10 scorer ever. Yeah, no, it was great.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's been in the league almost as long as you've been alive? Because he was 2008.

[Kenny]

2008, yeah. So I was three. Unbelievable. Yeah, it's wild. Wild how these guys can reinvent themselves. And like Lopez, too, raped Lopez last night. And even him, that's a guy who's reinvented his career to be able to play.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, him and Al Horford, there was a couple of them. They were back to the basket guys who just.

[Kenny]

And like, awesome All Star back to the basket guys who can reinvented themselves, shooting threes, stretching the floor. Just stick around and be effective.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Harden get you at all last night? Because you're trying to play him a certain way, right? And he still gets the shot he wants anyway.

[Kenny]

Yeah, well, he got me with a file, too. I was.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you get the flop?

[Kenny]

No, I had my hand in the. You know, the one I had. I got my hand in the cookie jar and he did the. And he did the. Went right into the three. And you got your hand out here and you got me.

[Bill Simmons]

But probably my least favorite call, I just think that should be a foul. I don't think you should get free throws for that. Yeah, but that. There's a bunch of things that would change officiating wise.

[Kenny]

It's really hard because the guys like him and Shay, like the. The way they. It's. It's a skill, you know, It's a skill. You feel the guy's hand on you just rise up and get somebody's hand caught in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you. You've played okc?

[Kenny]

Yeah, we put him twice.

[Bill Simmons]

So. Did you have to.

[Kenny]

I got a Jalen Williams a lot. But, you know, you get switched on Shay a couple times and yeah, he's. Then you're like, shit, he's really, he's really hard to guard. You just gotta, gotta stay solid, stay square. Keep your hands out of there.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd be so scared. Cause you'd think you would get him. And then he can do like one more spin or like a second style and then all of a sudden he's going another way.

[Kenny]

You gotta stay down on the shot fake and get super long arms. Guys are really, really skilled. You know, it's fun, fun to compete against those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We have Maxi's another one who has just become almost impossible to guard. And we have Jordan Walsh. I say we like him on the team. And it was one of like Jordan Walsh's breakthrough games. Like, he kind of figured out how to defend Maxi for like two minutes. I don't know if it's sustainable, but he kind, he just kind of unlocked what to do. And Maxi was getting bad shots and was like, oh my God, somebody unlocked Maxi. And then Maxi probably fixed it the next game. But when people have like the three moves they can do at any time and you just don't know what they're gonna do and they can just. And then that's it. Those are like the best scorers in the league. Brunson's like that too.

[Kenny]

Yeah, Brunson. Brunson is. We played them twice as well. He's different than some of the other guys. Cause all of his stuff is. A lot of his stuff, I should say, is off 2. 2ft. Yeah. And the pivots and the shot fakes, which is. And it's almost like he's like posting up at like 16ft and he's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like this herky jerky stop and start bouncing off you.

[Kenny]

And he's six foot tall and strong and those. He's. He's. He's got a little different. Different herky jerky game. Yeah, but he's, he's just as fun to, to compete against as, as any of those other guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you have an anobi and Bridges defending you that game? You must have Bridges.

[Kenny]

Brunson guarded me a little bit. Yeah. I don't think Anunoby played when we played them both times.

[Bill Simmons]

Who, who was the one who. The defensive player. We were like, oh my God, I'm in the NBA.

[Kenny]

First game, first time we played okc. Kayson Wallace.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, he's a nightmare.

[Kenny]

Yeah, he was. Yeah, I had a tough game. It was a back to back. We just played the Bucks in Milwaukee. Came back home to play that unit.

[Bill Simmons]

Great game in the Milwaukee game.

[Kenny]

Yeah, Good game. We Lost in overtime. It was like a. I played like 40 minutes. It was a tough one. It was like one of our first back to backs.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you have to play okc.

[Kenny]

You can play OKC at home. Off the flight. We get in at, like two because you lose the hour coming back to the East Coast. Yeah, that was tough.

[Bill Simmons]

And KSI and Wallace picking you up. Fork and knife.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And I don't think Mello played because it was a. It was a back to back and he was resting. So it was a. It was a tough one.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my Lord. Yeah. And they have Dort's. No. No prize either. If he decides to dial it up.

[Kenny]

He's. He's huge. He's.

[Bill Simmons]

Nick Caruso's doing the swiping and everything and bouncing.

[Kenny]

Yeah, they're. They're. They're a tough defense.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That.

[Kenny]

It's weird because Hardenstein is so, like. Because we put him. We put him the second time in OKC and we beat him. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That was one of the upsets of the year.

[Kenny]

Yeah, we played great, but Hardenstein was out. And he makes such a difference for them. Just, he's physical on the glass. Just defensively and what he can do in the pick and roll defense and what he does offensively, too, running all the dribble handoff actions and zoom actions with all those guys. He's a really important piece for them.

[Bill Simmons]

And you play joker, right?

[Kenny]

Yeah, we did play.

[Bill Simmons]

How was that?

[Kenny]

Yeah, he seemed like he wasn't even, like, trying that hard and.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he always seems like that.

[Kenny]

And then you look up and it's like 29, 13 and 9. He's like, with like 30 seconds left in the fourth quarter, and it's like he just dominated the game.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. He seemed like he was jogging around.

[Kenny]

We played them, too. Murray had a really good game. He had like 20, 25 in the first quarter, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Jokic was just impressive.

[Bill Simmons]

I have Murray. I always. Every week I do my all NBA team.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because. Just as a process. Because I'm one of the few people that actually cares about this shit. Who has a vote.

[Kenny]

Yeah. How do you feel about the. The non. I've decided I like positionless.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I hate the position. I always put as. I always try to make it look like at least somewhat of a basketball team.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So even if it's not, like, necessarily a center, I have to have a rebound. I can't have four guards. I really want to have a, like a wing forward. I try to have on each team.

[Kenny]

I think it's kind of a disservice too where you can just get like five guards and it's kind of a disservice to the history of the game. You look back at like the 80s or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree.

[Kenny]

You got three centers or you know, like Andrew Bogut's on third team.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kenny]

Like you're not, you're not going to see many of those anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there's really, there's guards, there's wings and there's bigs.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And I feel like each team should have at least one of those, at least one of those three positions and then you can go nuts with whatever else you want to do. Or two guards, one wing, one big. And then you can get wacky with the free spot. It should be five guys that could conceivably play basketball together, you know. So like for me, I still have Sengun on my second team, all NBA. I don't think he's been one of the best 10 players in the league, but I think he's been the second best center.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So he's going to make the team for me. But yeah, I, Jamal Murray is definitely going to make it for me. I mean we're halfway through the year. He's especially what he's doing without Joker is nuts.

[Kenny]

Yeah, they're playing, they're playing well.

[Bill Simmons]

They came in and kicked the Celtics ass, I'll tell you that much. I feel like the guards are as deep and scary as we've ever had.

[Kenny]

I mean there's like 30 good guards. Yeah, like all. I think there's like 30 capable all star guards. It's insane.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's no even. You see like teams like Garland, who doesn't have an all star case this year, but even he, if he had his own team, I feel like he would probably be putting up 22 and nine on his own team, you know?

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah, we played them a couple times too. And he's quick, he's tough to stay in front of and he's got all the boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, handle stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you played Indiana?

[Kenny]

Yeah, we put him. We lost him twice.

[Bill Simmons]

So you had, so you had your first McConnell experience.

[Kenny]

He's unreal. He's one of the hardest guys to guard.

[Bill Simmons]

He's another herky jerky weird, can't figure him out.

[Kenny]

And he's so low to the ground, like his center of gravity is so low. He's really hard to stay in front of. And then he has that, that rise up like mid range, like ten footer where he's got the ball like way above his head like that. Yeah, he's really hard to guard.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like the. It's brought back the golden age of these guards that can go in the paint and bounce off people and do footwork stuff. Like Pritchard does this too now for the Celtics. O' Connell does it. Brunson does it. There's a few guys in the league now. I don't know where it came from and nobody wants to foul them because they're always going to call it when you're trying to foul a little guy. But yeah, McConnell, they beat the Celtics last night in a very frustrating Celtics loss. And it was like they. You realize how good the league is because they're finally healthy. They made the finals last year. They don't have Halbert and they don't have Miles Turner, but they still have a lot of the DNA of last year's team. It's like they're not easy to play.

[Kenny]

Yeah, you know, they're. They play hard and you know, Carlisle's obviously a great coach.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Yeah. We lost them at the buzzer and then they go.

[Bill Simmons]

I watched that game. Yeah, it was a little. Yeah, it was a defensive mix up at the end. It was frustrating. I'm always rooting for the Charlotte. Charlotte franchise. They're my league pass team.

[Kenny]

We appreciate it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I was like, ah, why didn't you switch out? Don't say the team because I don't want to get you in trouble. But did you have an NBA experience yet where you played a team and it felt like the team didn't like each other or there was like a. The vibes were off and you could just feel it on the court.

[Kenny]

You know, Mason Plumlee says that half the battle in this league is having everybody still like each other in February.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a great quote.

[Kenny]

That's what he says.

[Bill Simmons]

So maybe you're not there yet. Maybe you'll see it a couple of times.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe you'll see it on Thursday night. But yeah, we're right around the time when some teams start getting gamey because either you're not as good as you thought you're going to be or you're about to start tanking. Guys are in trade rumors. You guys, you haven't had any trade rumor stuff with Charlotte. I don't think you're one of the few non playoff teams. I haven't seen anything. But there's other teams that. The names are just. It's like trade season now.

[Kenny]

Flowing around.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, it's great for content people like me.

[Kenny]

Yeah, that's gotta be. I mean, just ignoring the noise is a skill that I think teams have to. Have to, you know, kind of keep it together and still compete at a high level every night.

[Bill Simmons]

How online are you? Yeah, how are you checking this stuff? Are you like going to NBA, Reddit, places like that?

[Kenny]

You know, I, I don't have like social media on my phone anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Great idea.

[Kenny]

It's kind of. Just kind of deleted it really smart.

[Bill Simmons]

See, this is why you're the most efficient rookie in NBA history. You deleted social media more so just.

[Kenny]

Like, I don't want to be like scrolling on my phone and be like, oh, there's three hours that just went by.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kenny]

There's more so for that than anything else. So I've been off it for, you know, almost a week and a half now because it was kind of a recent thing.

[Bill Simmons]

That's really. It's a good New Year's resolution.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I guess it did kind of fit around that time. But yeah, so I've been off it a little bit, but obviously, you know, keeping up with podcasts and stuff like that is something I like to do.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so you listen to some of the NBA stuff?

[Kenny]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. NBA, NFL. I got a big, big sports sports podcast listening. I listen to a bunch of stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I want to talk NFL with you in a second. We got to talk about a couple more players. You played Kawhi?

[Kenny]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the strangest games. I mean, he's one of the top 30 players of all time. But the shot release, the line drive.

[Kenny]

Shots, it's a strong shot, Quick release.

[Bill Simmons]

Physical as shit, crazy hands on defense.

[Kenny]

Dribbles the ball like, harder than anybody I've played against. Really just like pounds the crap out of the ball. It's weird, but I mean, he doesn't, he doesn't lose, doesn't speak, doesn't lose. Yeah. Yeah, he didn't say much last night.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he's not talking shit. He's not there to make friends.

[Kenny]

No, I. But just one of the more impressive players I've played against. Like, just the shot making ability. Yeah, Kawhi's back all business.

[Bill Simmons]

They're 16 and 23, which before they were like 6 and 20 or something. So they're like. I don't know, they're not, they're on.

[Kenny]

A good run here too. And he's. Yeah, he's. He's unbelievable. And you got, you got Harden still too. They're just really really tough to guard.

[Bill Simmons]

What about Minnesota? Did you play them yet?

[Kenny]

We played them early. No Ant. So I.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, if you're ready for somebody to talk shit to you, he's your guy. He'll have some.

[Kenny]

He's great for the league.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been awesome.

[Kenny]

It's good to have a guy like that, you know, just. I, you know, I didn't get the chance to play against him, but he was talking shit. I could see him kind of in the corner. He was talking, talking stuff a little bit, which was cool to see.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, in 28, it'll be you guys leading America against France and Germany. Be the two of you. I love the way they've been playing lately. Randle, I think, is going to make my all star team. Gobert. If Wemby doesn't get the limit the 65 games, Gobert's probably the defensive player of the year. But I like the way they're playing. Ant's been unbelievable. I mean, he's just a top five guy now by whatever list you have.

[Kenny]

And I mean, this is a shooter too. Like.

[Bill Simmons]

Like doesn't miss.

[Kenny]

Yeah, he's shooting ten threes a game. Shooting a great percentage. Miss four of them. Yeah, it's. It's ridiculous.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's been clutch. The thing I love about him, and I think Lamelo has this quality too, actually. These guys that really do think they're the best guy on the court, they might even be wrong, but they, they think it's Ant. Like, he definitely thinks he's the best player in the league. And I think Lamelo sometimes you can see, like, he just thinks he's the best guy in the court. It doesn't matter who else is out there, but I do think you need that if you're going to actually try to win the title.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, Ant plays okc. He's like, I'm definitely not afraid of these guys. I think I'm better than Shay.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm better than all these guys. We're going to beat them. And he really does believe it.

[Kenny]

Yeah, he's. I mean, he's exuberant, confident, very confident. I just, like I said before, I think it's just good for the league to have a guy like that, super confident, talked his game. He was in Hustle when he was young and like, it was a good movie. Yeah, it was great. I mean, he's great in it and I just think having having guys like that in the league is really, really good for it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Wemby has that too. He they beat Boston on Saturday night.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I think. I think Wemby thinks he's the best guy in the world.

[Bill Simmons]

He kind of came back in with three minutes left, and they just kept giving it to him, and he just kept scoring. And he was. Had, like, a real disdain for the. It was like one of those.

[Kenny]

Yeah. On opening night, when he. Who. Who are they playing on opening night? I forget. Or his first. The first game of the season. This. Who were the spurs playing? I forget.

[Bill Simmons]

We had, like, four Rockets. Yeah, somebody.

[Kenny]

And I was like, oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

You played him yet?

[Kenny]

No, we haven't played the spurs yet. It's like, oh, my God. We, like. The league might be in trouble.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the league is in trouble.

[Kenny]

We'll see.

[Bill Simmons]

He's so freaking tall. I just. I worry about him. Over the course of 10 years, like, how do you stay in the court? Like, there's no room for error with guys around his legs, you know?

[Kenny]

Yeah, everybody's around his legs.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, everybody. Yeah, he looked. That team is really scary.

[Kenny]

Yeah, they're very good.

[Bill Simmons]

Because way before your time, the 1986 rockets. Your guy. Bird. Bird wasn't your guy. Your Milwaukee guy. But he's my guy.

[Kenny]

He's one of my. He's one of my favorites.

[Bill Simmons]

One of your guys. Okay, good. The 86. We were supposed to play the 86 Lakers in the finals. It was, like, heading this way. We'd play them in 84, 85, and then the Rockets at Hakeem and Sampson, and they just, like, killed the Lakers, like, just like out of nowhere. They just beat the shit out of them. And it was like a mismatch, and they were just too big and too. And I do wonder if the spurs can do that to a couple teams in the playoffs where they just.

[Kenny]

They're kind of a little bit ahead of, like, ahead of schedule.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think it's in play. We'll see. They're healthy. Trying to think who. What other. What are the other great players? You did.

[Kenny]

You.

[Bill Simmons]

You didn't play against Jalen yet. That's coming. And then Joker. I think we covered everybody. Was there anyone played?

[Kenny]

Luca, we played the Lakers already. Do you have to guard him a little bit? Not just a couple. Couple of switches. Not really.

[Bill Simmons]

He's one of those, like, you just can't talk shit to.

[Kenny]

Yeah, he's. He's talking the whole game.

[Bill Simmons]

You almost have to go the other way and be like, luka, it's an honor to meet you. I can't wait to play basketball against you for the next three hours and just like butter, butter him up.

[Kenny]

He's, he's great though. He meant some of the, some of the shots. Some of the difficulty of the shots he was taking and making against us. You know, just 19 footer, one legged off the glass.

[Bill Simmons]

It's crazy.

[Kenny]

Yeah, he's really good. Reeves was really good too when we played. I mean he had an off night shooting, but man, he's. Before the calf strain, he was having a heck of a, heck of a season.

[Bill Simmons]

He's another one of those guys who just knows where to go and what to do. Did you have a. Holy shit, I can't believe I'm playing against this guy. Guy. Like, who was your hero growing up or did you have one? Do you have a favorite that you had to be on the court against?

[Kenny]

Our third game of the season, we played the Wizards and we played Middleton. Middleton being from Milwaukee, like one of my favorite guys. And so most of our staff, you know, Charles Lee was assistant for Bud in Milwaukee. So most of our staff was in Milwaukee and they're like, oh yeah. Well they're all saying what up to Khris Middleton? And you know, I got to meet him after the game and that was like the first, first time after that, after a game or something, I talked to a guy and that was pretty special for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Kenny]

Just because, you know, rooting for him all, all the time growing up and he's some. Something as simple as, you know, just like nice to meet you. Appreciate all you did for the city.

[Bill Simmons]

He said. Was a good basketball role model for you too, right? Just like completely additive player.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Knew where to go, went to Dan, defended. Yeah.

[Kenny]

You know, good shot maker in the mid range, three point shooter, knows how to pass, knows how to play. He was awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you ready for all this all Star weekend stuff? It's going to be in la.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I assume you'll be in the all rookie game. That's the most efficient rookie in the history of the league. I think they're going to invite you.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I think that'll be cool. I can't remember last time I watched the Rising Stars game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I might have wagered on it a couple times. That would be the only reason. Yeah, I might have.

[Kenny]

But add some money, it'll be sweet. It'd be cool to get out there with some of the other rookie guys and see them again.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's good. Cause it's like the, it's the way the league goes. You start there, get to go to All Star weekend. You're like the wide eyed little baby of the league and you get to go through and then by year five you're an all star and you were like, oh, remember that time when I was like the wide eyed rookie? Now I'm used to this, you know, you get to do all. Then you'd be the grizzled guy trying to make it one more time. Try to have the long career.

[Kenny]

Yeah, that'd be sweet.

[Bill Simmons]

The last time you were on we didn't really dive into your brothers and I was told that it was one of the great misses of my podcast year last year. This whole.

[Kenny]

By who?

[Bill Simmons]

This whole. One of our ringer guys, J. Kyle Mann, who's obsessed with the Knipple family and thinks you guys have a chance to potentially have three to four NBA players. Conceivably.

[Kenny]

We'll see.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's do the proper. So how many brothers are there?

[Kenny]

Four. I have four brothers. Five of us total.

[Bill Simmons]

Four brothers. And all of them are good at basketball.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So what are the ages?

[Kenny]

My brother Cager is a junior, Kinston is a sophomore, Cash is a freshman and Kidman's in eighth grade.

[Bill Simmons]

And do the high schoolers play together on the same.

[Kenny]

All three of them are on the same on the varsity team but the 8th graders and the 8th graders on. He's just the middle school. Middle school team.

[Bill Simmons]

So the law of professional Sports says the 8th grader is going to be the best one.

[Kenny]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Because he's trying to. That's what happened Drake May.

[Kenny]

Because when I started like getting in the gym every day, I was in fifth grade and he was five. So he's been, been shooting and getting shots up since.

[Bill Simmons]

He's, he's just trying to catch up with you guys. Yeah, he's annoying. He's like, get out of here, you're not big enough to play yet.

[Kenny]

Typically the youngest is supposed to be, supposed to be the best.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, that was the Drake May thing. His brothers were like great, great, great athletes.

[Kenny]

I'm sure you've seen the video of. Oh yeah, the draft video where they're like pretty boy. Yeah, that video is great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he was a good Hooper too.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you ever see the videos of him playing high school?

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah, he's like, he's from Charlotte. He's a, he's Myers Park. He's a Charlotte kid. So he's a Hornets fan. He wants to come, come to a game.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he's a Celtic fan now. We've, we've corrupted him. We Brought him over. So what are the heights of the brothers?

[Kenny]

Cager is six, nine. He's a. Yeah, he's huge. He's way taller than me. Kinston is six' six. Cash is like six' two and Kidman is like five' ten.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Cater's big, so five' ten, eighth grade. Yeah, six' nine.

[Kenny]

Yeah, he's.

[Bill Simmons]

So is he a legitimate big man or is he like a six' nine shooter?

[Kenny]

No, he's a shoot like shooter. Stretch for super long arms, guard the best player on the other team. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So what is his like. Like, is he on the list? Is he. I should have researched this. I actually wanted to find out from you, but I didn't want to cheat. But is he like on the list? Like, is he going to play like high div one?

[Kenny]

Yeah, he's. He's got a couple of offers. Butler, DePaul. He's gone a couple visits. Purdue, Marquette, Xavier. They're at one of his high school games, so we'll see. He's only a junior, so he's still got a little bit of time, but we'll see how it keeps getting better.

[Bill Simmons]

Worst case scenario, you could just have. You're a franchise guy for a team and just all your brothers have contracts with it. They're all with you. You just have the three guys a couple times. Fifteen man roster. There's like there are four knipples on the team. So the young one, five, ten, eighth grade, that's the one with the most pressure because of the younger brother thing.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I guess we're putting that on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm going to throw that on him right now. So how's the family after the packers thing? One of the worst playoff losses of the decade. Still reeling from.

[Kenny]

I wonder how many of those. Like, did you put a list together?

[Bill Simmons]

I did it on Sunday night. I went through like 20 losses.

[Kenny]

20 losses. How many of them were packers losses?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I did all the packers losses.

[Kenny]

Oh, you did all the Packers.

[Bill Simmons]

All the terrible ones they had on. I mean like throwing five in overtime games.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I was putting that together in my own notes. The one in Seattle is one of the worst. I was like 9 or 10.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, because even that involves when the onside kick gets involved. That goes to another level.

[Kenny]

Onside kick. I think of. Well, my Morgan Burnett had an interception in that game with five minutes left.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And he slid down with like 30 yards of running room in front of him. Like slid down. And my grandma, who's a Vikings fan, was watching the game with us and Was like, looks like the packers are going to the Super Bowl. And my dad was like, no, shut up there. Yeah. So, I mean, there are a lot. A lot of, you know, playoff heartbreak. I think of the Cardinals when Rodgers had the two Hail Marys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then the fumble. Was it a fumble touchdown or something or. That was the farve.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Favre had a fumble touchdown. And his.

[Kenny]

Oh, no, that was. That was Rogers first game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kenny]

So he had two horrible losses in Arizona in the playoffs. We had the.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you were too young for The Freddie Mitchell, 4th and 26. That was abominable.

[Kenny]

My dad. My dad has horror stories about that one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

I think of Rogers last playoff game in Lambeau. Block punt, touchdown for San Fran.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And then there's just ones where he just got smoked. Yeah. By Atlanta. San Fran. When raheem Mostert at 200 yards.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The case.

[Kenny]

I think this one is. I mean, it's to the Bears.

[Bill Simmons]

This one was way up there.

[Kenny]

This is top two.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the only difference with this one is I don't think anyone thought it was a Super bowl team.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

But you lose to the Bears, so that kind of.

[Kenny]

It would have been a successful season with how all the injuries went. If we would have beat the Bears in the playoffs in Soldier Field, I feel like it would have been successful considering the Parsons injury and all that.

[Bill Simmons]

Tucker Kraft.

[Kenny]

Tucker Kraft.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I said to Sal, it's weird because the packers have won two Super Bowls in the last 30 years. Right. Which, if you're the jets or the Bengals, you take one of those, you're made.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But you've also had all these awful playoff losses, and they never get. The packers never get thrown into the tortured fan base list because you won the two Super Bowls, but then you had all this other pain.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it also means the most there. You know, it's like.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And to have, you know, Favre and Rogers, it's the two of, like, the top five quarterbacks ever, depending on how you want to look at it. And to have those guys and, you know, they. Each of them gets one, but, you know, you feel like the window was open basically every year. They were. They were the quarterback.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

That's tough. Tough feeling. I was talking to one of my teammates. It's like, he's a Panthers fan and they've had a couple of super bowl losses, but, like, when you're out of the playoffs, it's. You'd rather. You'd much rather be in the playoffs, like, rooting for the packers. In the playoffs every year. But it's way more painful to lose, like, a game away from the super bowl or just like a heartbreaking way in the playoffs than it is just like, oh, we missed the playoffs. You want to be in those situations. As a fan, you want to be in the playoffs. But sometimes it's like, all right, we missed the playoffs. Not. It's a little. Little, Little more painless.

[Bill Simmons]

You're walking me through where I might be on Sunday after Pat's Texans. If the Texans defense kills the Pats, I actually think the Pats are going to be in good shape.

[Kenny]

But, yeah, Vrabel's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

We have a great coach, and I think our quarterback is, like, legitimately has a chance to be one of the great ones.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it's crazy how quick that happened. He's awesome. Drake May's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Good demeanor, too. But it's interesting the way that teammates talk about him. I think you almost have to, like, I always look at that stuff when the other guys are like, this guy's special.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, this guy is a crazy competitor. Like, I love that. Like, they just kind of go out of their way to say these things, and after a while, you're like, maybe they're saying this for a reason. Like, I've just seen this in the past. Usually the guy's special when the teammates are.

[Kenny]

And I love. I love how he deflects in the. In the post game.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Kenny]

Just like the MVP chance. And he's like, I think those might have been for Baker.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Kenny]

How he deflect or you're leading the league in passing yards. And he's like, that's because we haven't had a buy yet.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kenny]

Like, I love that stuff, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's not. Not remotely cocky, but he's crazy competitive, which is a good combo.

[Kenny]

Great combo.

[Bill Simmons]

He's definitely not one of those. Look at me. Look. Look over here.

[Kenny]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll see what happens. I. It's. Everything's heading toward Josh Allen potentially coming to New England for the Super Bowl. Who's the mountain that they now have to get over as a franchise anyway? He kind of took the Brady spot.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's really fun football season. I'm getting killed in my picks, but I've enjoyed the games.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it's been good. And it feels kind of with everybody we have left, it feels kind of like I'd feel good about anybody winning it. Whatever team.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a goofy season.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, Tell the story about you trying to find out what the packers score was when you were playing.

[Kenny]

Yeah, we were playing. The playing the jazz killed the Jazz. Yeah, we're up by a bunch. But I watched the whole first half and it's 21 to three at halftime. So I'm like, great mood.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're playing during the second half.

[Kenny]

The packers game? Yeah, yeah, our game.

[Bill Simmons]

Your game is happening. And the second half starts.

[Kenny]

We're up. Hugh. We're up like 77:38 at halftime. Like it was blowout. And so we have a assistant coach who's a. Who's a Packers fan as well. And you know, the game. The game was over later in the fourth quarter and we're like, yo, what's the score? And it was like, guys are down four and with like a minute 40 left. And we were like, what? Like we were up 21 to 3. Yeah. Yeah. That was probably one of the worst, worst feelings. I got a bunch of shire from Duke. As a Bears fan, I'm getting all.

[Bill Simmons]

These texts, oh, he's talking shit.

[Kenny]

Yeah, just kicking me while I'm down.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Jerk.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Definitely a brutal, brutal night. After we win by 60. I'm like, that was great.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you have any Bears fans on the team? On your team?

[Kenny]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

That would have made it worse.

[Kenny]

No, no Bears fans. Well, Drew Peterson Celtic is a Bears fan. We waived this year, but he was, he texted me after the game. I was like, I hate you.

[Bill Simmons]

It was, it was it. I mean, you're.

[Kenny]

I'm glad I didn't get to see it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you two first downs on that last drive. You're up. You're up three with the ball. They have two timeouts left. You're in their 21, and it's like there's no scenario where they should win the game at that point. You're either running the clock out or you're killing enough clock that they can't do it.

[Kenny]

I don't know if you saw the graphic about teams being up 10 points with five minutes left and like the record.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's. Weren't they like. It's like the second one ever to blow the lead.

[Kenny]

Everybody is like, 300 since 1970 is like 300 some and two or one. And the packers this year were six and three. We lost three games this year with a 10 point lead with less than five minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus.

[Kenny]

Tough.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you ever play football or no.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I played in high school. Played my freshman year.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you realized it was the mail ticket was hoops. Yeah.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Which is tough. You know, that's kind of how it goes nowadays.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

I mean, more specialization.

[Bill Simmons]

Football's a tough one though, because that is. There's some wear and tear you probably don't need.

[Kenny]

We were running the option too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Quarterback gets hit every play like it was. I played qb, so you played qb.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Kenny]

Yeah. So you're getting. You're gonna hit every play.

[Bill Simmons]

Could you do any little like side flag football stuff with the Hornets? Could you have a game? Couldn't you guys organize a flag football game?

[Kenny]

We should. That would be awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd love to see Lamelo running.

[Kenny]

Oh, he can. He can throw the ball.

[Bill Simmons]

Miles Bridges would be crazy too.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it'd probably be a pretty good.

[Bill Simmons]

Lamelo would be the other qb. So you go back and you get Brandon Miller.

[Kenny]

Lamelo and Connaughton can throw the ball country mile.

[Bill Simmons]

I forgot the Connaughton piece. Yeah, Connaughton, I think played, didn't he?

[Kenny]

He played baseball.

[Bill Simmons]

Pitcher.

[Kenny]

Pitcher. So yeah, we'd have a couple of good arms.

[Bill Simmons]

So you guys have. You have a couple really good vets on the team.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And the whole concept of a vet, I think is I've been around the block, I've seen some things. Let me impart my wisdom. And yet most NBA teams forget to put vets on teams with young guys, but the Hornets did not. To Plumlee and Connaughton, who've been around.

[Kenny]

The buck, Plumlee, Connaughton, even Grant Williams and Grant.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Grant's been around too.

[Kenny]

So, you know, those guys have been great.

[Bill Simmons]

Seen some things, been in some different situations.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Kind of taking us under the wing too, and, you know, treating us just like any other teammate, which has been just great. Not really getting that. The rookie. The rookie treatment will go away.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Which is carrying bags.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Which has been great.

[Bill Simmons]

Connaughton won a title. Anyone else win a title? I think that's it. I think that's your only title, Guy. Miles didn't win a title.

[Kenny]

No. Yeah, just.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Charles Lee won a title.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Charles Lee. Most of our staff was in Milwaukee or Boston.

[Bill Simmons]

And that was a good high.

[Kenny]

Josh Green was in the finals, but he didn't win.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Connaughton. Milwaukee, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

What's going on with the ladies? Is there time you have a girlfriend?

[Kenny]

I got a girlfriend.

[Bill Simmons]

How long have you had a girlfriend?

[Kenny]

Three and a half years.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting. And where is she?

[Kenny]

She's at Marquette. She's a freshman at Marquette.

[Bill Simmons]

So your long distance relationship. The Marquette. Okay.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

How's that going?

[Kenny]

Good. Yeah. She's great. You know, she comes down as much as he can.

[Bill Simmons]

Were you expecting that answer, Gahal? Long distance with the Marquette student. I knew I would. I wasn't.

[Kenny]

Yeah, we went to the same high school. Yeah, she's great. She turned breaks. She got to come down a couple times. Yeah, she's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe you'll end up like Drake. Maybe marrying his sixth grade girlfriend.

[Kenny]

Is that what it was?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's what it was.

[Kenny]

Sixth grade.

[Bill Simmons]

It was sixth or seventh grade. Yeah. They stayed together ever since. The Pats fans loved it because they were like, obviously loyal guy.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And she's cool, but it's like, well, that means we'll have him for 20 years.

[Kenny]

20. Loyalty. She's a loyal dude. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

That's a great call.

[Bill Simmons]

So girlfriend. Long distance girlfriend. Wow.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're on the road, little FaceTiming.

[Kenny]

FaceTiming.

[Bill Simmons]

But then when you go into Wisconsin, she can come to a game.

[Kenny]

Yep. Go to Milwaukee. She came.

[Bill Simmons]

Chicago. She can come.

[Kenny]

Yep. She came to the game. Yeah. It's great. Just getting updates. She loves pictures of the hotel room. All that stuff is the nice resort that we're in here in la or the. We did a tour of Sony Studios today, so we're getting pictures of the car from Ghostbusters. The original. Or the RV from Breaking Bad. So, Senator, all that stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

And you said you'd never been to Los Angeles before.

[Kenny]

Never. First time.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there any other.

[Kenny]

It's a shame.

[Bill Simmons]

LA is great.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it's really nice. January and I was walking on the beach.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you can see why all the NBA players end up coming this way. Right?

[Kenny]

Right. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Like, that's why they've signed all these free agents.

[Kenny]

Right. It's the. The best time when you. Everybody looks forward to the trip. Come out here. As far.

[Bill Simmons]

The other big trip that everybody loved but doesn't exist anymore was the Portland, Seattle, Vancouver trip. For some reason was a popular one. And then I guess Texas would be a trip, but I don't know if that's as exciting.

[Kenny]

I have a funny story about my mom. She knows best. She played, she knows basketball, but she doesn't really keep up with professional sports like that. So we were getting my passport. I'd never been outside the country. So before the season we're getting my passport because we played Toronto kind of early in the season at Toronto. And so she's like, all right, when do you play Toronto? Like, we gotta get this. I was like, we play him in November. And she's like, okay, what about Vancouver?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, she thought they were still around.

[Kenny]

She's like, yeah, they haven't been there since, like, I don't know, 2000 maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

She was factory and expansion.

[Kenny]

Yeah, maybe we were going back. Going back to Vancouver.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the last thing I wanted to talk to you about, was the parents thing.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you have a pretty close family with parents. So how much do you check in with them? Do they check in with you? Do they make. I'm trying to think of what I would be like as your dad in this situation and being mad we didn't hear from Khan. He played last night. He even sent us a text, like, how much parent maintenance is involved here?

[Kenny]

My mom, she kind of works for me as far as, like, oh, handle the.

[Bill Simmons]

Off the course stuff.

[Kenny]

Yeah, off the course stuff. She. She really helps out with that. So she. She comes down a decent amount, you know, to help take care of things at the house. But. Yeah, or at the apartment. So she does some of that stuff. But, you know, they come down probably for a game once a month maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

Are they sending tips? Like, I watched the Wizards game last night. What were you doing in the third quarter?

[Kenny]

Crash the offensive glass. Come on. What are you doing? No, they'll text me before every game. My mom will just be aggressive, play hard. Dad will be. Say something. Light him up. DM up. He always texts me that. Text all of us that. So they'll hit me with that stuff before the game.

[Bill Simmons]

And then they're going to all their kids games too.

[Kenny]

So it's this. It's awesome. Every day. So my brothers have a high school game tonight. So in the family group, chat. Light em up. DM Up, Cash, Kinst, cage. Yeah, whatever. And then it'll be the same thing if I'm playing or Kidman's playing. So, yeah, that's. That's kind of cool. But no more. No more tips, really, anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you. Did you win a title when you.

[Kenny]

Were there in high school? Yeah, yeah, my senior year. Undefeated 30. And.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, wow.

[Kenny]

They're. Yeah, so we won my senior year. They won last year. So my brother's.

[Bill Simmons]

What school is this?

[Kenny]

Wisconsin Lutheran High School. So my brother was on both those teams. So he. In the. They went 28 and two last year, so they were 58 and two in two years. And they have two state championships. So Cater likes to brag. Like I got. He didn't even play his freshman year, but he likes to brag. I got two losses and as many rings as losses.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And they have another great team this year. My Cousin's on the team.

[Bill Simmons]

Your cousin? What the hell is going on with his family?

[Kenny]

Cousin. He's a stud. He's going to Northern Iowa. And then the coach's kid is on the team and they all play. So it's a heck of a high school squad.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you get used to the eating schedule and playing at night and all this stuff and traveling and like, when do you eating dinner at 11 o' clock at night, all that stuff?

[Kenny]

Yeah, we had like a team dinner after the game last night and it's like 11:30, but it's 2:30 on the east coast. You're like kind of barely adjusted. Yeah, I'm waking up at like 5am out here. But no, I, the, the eating stuff, it is, it is kind of different because I was never a big. I wouldn't eat much on game day. Yeah, it's like you play 82 games, you gotta, you gotta eat food, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Because you don't want to lose weight.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't want to be like skinny.

[Kenny]

So I've got a good kind of operation where I'm always eating a big like brunch after shoot around and there's.

[Bill Simmons]

Not really time to work out. Right. Or like, it's almost like recovery stuff.

[Kenny]

So. Yeah, a lot of recovery. But we'll lift before and after the game. Like it'll be kind of split in half because you want to take advantage of the days where it's like, yeah, like this is a high effort day where we're playing a game. So we're going to lift on game day and then tomorrow will be a complete off day.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's, what's the right number of like, what would be a crazy number of minutes for you to play this year?

[Kenny]

Looking up when, when someone. We had Brandon and Mello out, there was a couple games. I played 40.

[Bill Simmons]

But I'm saying for like, for like the season, how many minutes, like total.

[Kenny]

Total minutes or just like.

[Bill Simmons]

Is 2,400 realistic for you?

[Kenny]

I don't know what the math is.

[Bill Simmons]

Hold on, I'm looking you up. So you're playing 32.5 a game. You've played every game.

[Kenny]

I missed one.

[Bill Simmons]

So you played 39 of 40. All right, so if you're on a pace of 80 times 30, that's like 2,500 minutes. It's impressive.

[Kenny]

It's a lot. Yeah. I was ticked I missed that game.

[Bill Simmons]

Why'd you miss the game?

[Kenny]

I sprained my ankle like pretty bad in Orlando.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought that, I thought you were gonna be out for like three weeks.

[Kenny]

Yeah, we did a great job. Training staff did a really good job.

[Bill Simmons]

You fly to Italy?

[Kenny]

It wasn't as bad. No.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Kobe jet?

[Kenny]

The Kobe jet? No, it wasn't as bad as. I broke both my ankles in middle school, so every time I roll my ankle or sprained my ankle playing basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

You broke your ankles?

[Kenny]

Jesus. It kind of feels like that pain, and it's because your mind just kind of does that or it feels like that sharp pain. So I thought I broke it right away, but then as soon as I could put weight on it, I was like, okay. That's kind of the telltale. If you can't put weight on it, you probably broke it. So I missed that game. I'd missed the game in high school or college, so I was ticked.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, man. You're putting together the. Who's the street guy now?

[Kenny]

Bridges. Bridges. Mikel Bridges.

[Bill Simmons]

Did he cheat, though? Did he do the thing where he came in for one minute?

[Kenny]

He did.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm against that. A.C. green started that.

[Kenny]

Just coming.

[Bill Simmons]

Josh Allen did that.

[Kenny]

Laker guy started it.

[Bill Simmons]

Classic Lakers just starting some dumb. Yeah, Josh Allen did it. He came in for one play and left. And it was like, come on, what's your theory for all the tendon injuries that we're having in football and basketball and like all these calf strains and Achilles stuff? Is it. Is there something we're doing?

[Kenny]

And they're being really careful with it too. Like if a guy has a calf.

[Bill Simmons]

Strain, like now they overreact.

[Kenny]

We're shutting you down for, you know, a month.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they just did that to Reeves.

[Kenny]

Reeves, yeah. Mason Palm. We had one earlier in the. In the. In the break, in the off season.

[Bill Simmons]

So you think they just know more about it now? That they could be more careful than they used to be or maybe.

[Kenny]

Or they're just kind of scared from seeing it happen. I think we are playing a lot more possessions in games and the pace, like everybody's playing fast, but it's happening.

[Bill Simmons]

In football too, right?

[Kenny]

So I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

So I think it's a combo of.

[Kenny]

Do you think it's maybe the specialization, like I've heard that, where it's like guys that played a bunch of different sports are more durable. Cause they're using different muscles in high school. I don't know. You're playing like. I've been playing basketball for basically year round for. Yeah, I don't know, 10 years. Like, it could be that maybe. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

I think basketball. I argued about this with Eddie Johnson, the former NBA player, because he has that serious NBA show. And we, we argued about it once because he's like, basketball's not harder to play now. And I'm like, dude, watch how much running there is. Like that. I guess there's no way to really measure it. They'd have to have somebody measure all the games in the 80s versus now. Yeah, there's no way you're not running more now, like, because you have to run out on defense.

[Kenny]

Well, you just look at the possessions.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Like, we're playing way more possessions than teams did in the 90s, no question. And it's like. And then you talk about the spacing. Like, we get a rebound, like, most of the time it's like sprint to the corner for the spacing. So, like, you gotta be in really good shape to sprint to the corner. And like, you're doing that, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

30 more possessions, sprint to the corner to go run a shooter.

[Kenny]

Right. And so it's. You're just covering a little more surface area. I was looking at something that the guys that cover the most ground in the league, it was top five. I was running two and a half miles. And that's just a game. You're just running to the corner.

[Bill Simmons]

The fucking refs are getting hurt now. Bill Kennedy just got hurt.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it does seem like way more running than it used to be.

[Kenny]

Yeah. A lot more possessions. I think that might have something to.

[Bill Simmons]

Do with it, because if you watch the 80s and 90s games, stuff's packing in. It's more physical, but there's more time to kind of. You're playing, but you don't have to move as much now. I just feel like guys are chasing. They're chasing guys around. Picks.

[Kenny]

Yeah. I mean, if you watch 90s, early 2000s, like Mark Jackson's bringing up back and down running the show. All right, we're going to dump it to this guy in the post.

[Bill Simmons]

Everybody kind of settles, no matter who.

[Kenny]

It is, like Latrell Sprewell in the post or something. And it's like posting up your three man, your four man, your five man kind of. And everybody's, you know, kind of watching. It's just a different, different type of game.

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say. It's amazing to watch now. And I was there for all of it. And now when I watch it and I see the spacing, I'm like, how did we not know?

[Kenny]

Think of this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, how do we not know that you're posting up Mikhail and two other guys can just jump down on him because the shooter's 10ft away from him. Like, why did he not just move back?

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What were they doing? But they just didn't have any idea.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it is. It is different. And then it's hard. It's. It's so much harder now to compare. Like, you're. You're in the business of comparing eras.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's no way to do it.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, when you're all fucked up now.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And when you came out with your book too, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

You didn't really see that coming either. Like, it was hard to 2010. It's like you could still kind of compare, you know, 80s to 2008. Celtics, you know, it was a similar game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I was thinking about it. Somebody sent me a good email about maybe there's like four different eras, and you just have to. There's like the era before Russell. Then there's the era from basically Russell all the way to when the leagues merged. 76. And then it's basically 76 to when Curry has his first good year.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Like 2013.

[Bill Simmons]

All that you can. The stats kind of make sense, pace of play. Some seasons are faster, others are smaller. But around 2013, 14, it shifts. And it's almost like once Horford and Brook Lopez start shooting threes, the game's.

[Kenny]

Different, you know, and even I think I saw something like the warriors offensive efficiency from, like, that 14, 15 season is, like, middle of the pack. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

It'd be like 17th, which is unreal.

[Kenny]

Like, we're even now at a higher efficiency from 10 years ago.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing that's nuts to me, like, the Celtics had the second net offense this year so far. We'll see if it drops down a little. But not Tatum.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And you look at the team and it's like, this is one of the 20 best offenses in regular season history. Like, with the guys we have, like, I don't. But they've just kind of figured out all the math and the possessions and the pace and the right shots and crashed the offensive boards.

[Kenny]

Guys know how to play together. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The offensive boards is a big thing for.

[Kenny]

Creates, extra position stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's like more shots like, we defend. Don't care if you give up a fast break basket. Because the offensive rebound's more important.

[Kenny]

Yeah, well, I mean, we'll see. Like, we put a huge emphasis on crashing the offensive glass.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And so you'll have, you know, like a wing like me is getting one offensive rebound a game or one and a half. You know, getting a Hand on a ball. All that stuff is important. Just gets you maybe one more, one more, three or one more opportunity at a shot.

[Bill Simmons]

So Doc Rivers, like his last couple Celtics seasons when they almost made the finals in 2012, but they're older team and one of his rules was we're giving up offensive rebounds. We don't want to give up fast break positions at all. So it's basically one shot, as many.

[Kenny]

People back as possible.

[Bill Simmons]

It's completely different than what you do now. Now Doc's coaching Milwaukee, probably telling everybody to crash the boards. But. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's the math. I think they just figured out some shit with basketball.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We just didn't have this stuff 20 years ago.

[Kenny]

Right. The analytics, like basketball, baseball, it's harder to do harder in football.

[Bill Simmons]

Football, it's almost like defense came back a little bit in football.

[Kenny]

Oh yeah. You know, definitely. I mean, just how they disguise. Yeah, it's just harder for quarterbacks now to decipher defenses, but it's a little bit hard. Like the analytics decisions are harder in football because at the end of day you still got to go execute. Like it could tell you to go go for it on 4th and 2. Like we should go for it. But you still have to do it. You still gotta go out there and get the first down.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. This first round, which you probably missed.

[Kenny]

Cause you were playing.

[Bill Simmons]

But the. They were way too fourth down heavy in this first round.

[Kenny]

The Bears.

[Bill Simmons]

And it burned some teams. Bears were 04 and fourth down and one somehow. Or one and five, whatever they were. Yeah, yeah, we'll see. Did you learn anything from all the analytics about you of things not to do? Like, do you think about that stuff?

[Kenny]

You know, I. Like I said about synergy, I try to look on that a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

Like what your weakness is.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Or just like, man, this. There was like halfway through the season, one of the corner threes was like below average.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Kenny]

And I was looking at it, I was like one corner, I'm like 56%. And the other corner, I was like 38. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. It's evened out now, but it's kind of.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause that could just be a small.

[Kenny]

Sample size, smaller sample size. But like I'll look at that stuff and it's kind of interesting. You can kind of. You. You can see in different areas where you rank and it's just like a scale of like, excellent, very good, good, average, below average, poor. So you can kind of look at that stuff to, you know, maybe get a.

[Bill Simmons]

It's depressing.

[Kenny]

Get a grasp.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God, I'm poor. Yeah. I'm in the poor category. Do you look at like five man lineups and all that stuff?

[Kenny]

I. I've looked at that a little bit. I did that in college. There was. There was a. Evan. Maya did something that I was looking at. But I enjoy that stuff, you know, it's interesting to look at. I look at. I look up different players to see, you know, who's really good. Like, Shays is unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I like.

[Kenny]

He's like green everywhere on the court.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like 18, no matter what the lineup is. I like looking at the three man stuff sometimes because sometimes there'll be these weird combinations.

[Kenny]

Combinations that are like, good.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

That you wouldn't expect.

[Bill Simmons]

Like. Well, with the Celtics, like you would expect. It's like Kata, Brown and White all together. Now, they play a lot of minutes together, but with those three, you can kind of fit any other two around them. And if you have those three, we're going to be good. But sometimes there'll be ones that surprise you and there'll be ones where like, OKC will have, like, Wallace, Dort and Caruso. And it's like small minutes, but their defensive ratings, like 88.

[Kenny]

Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You're like, yeah, that makes sense. Those guys are like three pit bulls trying to bring the ball up. But. All right, we covered everything, I think, right?

[Kenny]

Yeah, I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

So rookie wall hasn't happened yet. Girlfriend's still going. You're pace for 2,500 minutes and incredible efficiency. Teams coming together. Lamelo's got his mojo, it seems like, and he gets to play the Los Angeles Lakers in LA. It's amazing. LeBron James can't get any better. This could be his last year. Who knows?

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah, it'll be. That'll be. That'll be sweet.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, well, congrats on everything. It's been fun to watch.

[Kenny]

I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

[Bill Simmons]

Trying to think when we do the third pod together would have to. I don't know what the. What the inciting incident will be. This was. We did one before you got drafted. Now we have one halfway through your rookie year. So we got to figure out like the next for the trilogy when that is. Maybe that's like right before the playoffs or something. First playoff, if you can make it. Probably not this year, but maybe we'll see a year from now. All right, thanks for doing this.

[Kenny]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Khan and Gahao and Eduardo. Don't forget rewatchables went up Tuesday night, what Lies Beneath. And don't forget, I have another podcast coming on Thursday, Football Podcast. So that'll be the fourth one of this week. You'll be able to watch it on Spotify, you'll be able to listen to it wherever you want. And you could also watch it on Netflix. So please watch it in one of those places. I will see you in 24 hours. Must be 21 plus on President in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + on President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming Gamble problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.orgchatinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.