← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
An NBA Playoff Preview With Doc Rivers, Plus Nick Khan on WrestleMania 42 and the Next Big WWE Stars
02:59:21
Loading summary
Transcript1,048 lines
- [00:01]
A
Start your day with Quaker Protein Instant Oatmeal.
- [00:03]
B
The Instant Oatmeal.
- [00:05]
A
Ready to help you tackle whatever your day brings. Like wrangling your toddler into their car seat.
- [00:12]
B
That was fun. Coaching your sixth grader soccer team.
- [00:15]
C
Go Girls.
- [00:17]
B
And carrying all the groceries in one trip.
- [00:21]
A
Try Quaker Protein Instant Oatmeal, Granola and bars. Great taste and a good source of protein. Quaker bring out the good foreign.
- [00:36]
B
The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by fanduel. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network. Add new rewatchables that went up on Monday. We did Basic Instinct. Kindergarten Cop is coming next Monday. We also launched a brand new narrative podcast called the Gata. First two episodes are up. Please check it out. I was involved with this one. If you like Miami Vice, Scarface, the 80s cocaine shows. This has it all. So please go check it out. I have a big podcast coming up. Doc Rivers, a dramatic return. And we're going to talk a lot of hoops with him. We're going to talk about the award stuff, the season, the best player he saw in person, playoff matchups, what happened with the buck season, Giannis. We go into all of it and normally that would have been the podcast, but Nick Khan, a very important person at the WWE in boxing, bull riding, all kinds of things and somebody I've known for a long time, he came over and we did a wide ranging talk on a whole bunch of things. So this is a massive podcast. Wanted to mention the playoffs are starting this weekend. I do have FanDuel bet a little bit later, but I really wanted to take an upset. I love taking an upset. Every year. Every year there is an upset and I don't see the matchup for the upset this weekend. Minnesota and Atlanta seem to be the two live ones to jump on and I don't. I just think Denver and the Knicks are going to advance. The one I think is the most interesting for, for, for an underdog pick, if you wanted to get nuts, is the lakers. Lakers in seven is 10 to one, Lakers in six is 22 to one. And the Lakers to win this series is plus 5:30. I just feel like we're going to get Luka back before the end of the series. And if, even if it's two one after three, the longer that series goes on, I think the worse I think it is for Houston, but I just think the odds are a little out of whack. Um, I don't think Houston should be minus 7:50 against anybody, but we're probably going to go chalk for round one, but that's the only one I would look at. The other thing I wanted to mention, we got word today that Cade and Luka are now eligible for first team all NBA or second team, all NBA or MVP or whatever you want because their appeal process work. So I'm just going to give you my ballot with the adjusted Luka, first team Jokic, Wemby, Luka, sga, Jaylen Brown, second team Duran, Kawhi Mitchell, Cade Brunson, third team Chet kd, Jalen Johnson, Murray Maxey is what I'm going with for all NBA. I have Luka as number four, mvp, Jalen five, Wimby three and I have not handed him my ballot yet. And I know I said on Tuesday I was voting SGA for MVP and we cut a social clip out of it and I am just agonizingly talking about how I don't understand why I'm not voting for Jokic when he had one of the greatest offensive seasons I've ever seen in the greatest of his career and yet also laid out the case why I think the vote has to be sga. Blame the NBA, not me. Because I should have already sent my ballot in this appeal process, dragged it out. I have not sent him my ballot yet. I don't know when the deadline is. I still don't know who I'm voting for for mvp. I've changed my mind. I've had a conscious uncoupling with my original SGA thing. I just over and over again keep thinking, what, in 10 years, what am I going to think? Am I going to regret doing this because there's been a couple MVP picks I've regretted over the years. I'm just not ready to make a pick yet. I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry. I already said I was voting for sga. I apologize to the OKC fans and SGA and his family. I don't know what I'm going to do and I'm just going to think about it for the next two days. I, um. But it's up in the air, so that's what I got for you. All right, we're gonna take a break, bring in Pearl Jam, talk basketball. Doc Rivers, stick around for Nick Khan. Really good, action packed, fun podcast next. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA post season is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. Fanduel. The best place to bet the Team teams, players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. Don't forget, with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat. All right, late afternoon Thursday. My friend Doc Rivers is here. We're back. We did it.
- [05:54]
A
We're back. I did a little two and a half year segue. You know, I told you this, but just going to make your ego just humongous, Bill. But I don't know how many times I've even had guys like, hey, I like you as a coach, but I really like you on the podcast with Bill, you got to get back. And I'm like, okay, okay, I got you. I hear you. So. So I'm back.
- [06:16]
B
Yeah. I'm taking advantage of you during the playoffs at least a couple of times. Well, the best thing is getting you right at a. You just coaching. You went against all these guys, you went against all these players. I want to go. We could talk about the Buck stuff much later. I first, I got to talk about Curry, because you have real ties to that because your daughter married into the Curry family and you have special emotional ties. I was there last night. I took my son, who had never seen, you know, a, a, a real Steph Curry stakes game. He'd never been in the, in the house for that. And the whole time I'm going, you know, you know, they're down 8, they're down 6, they're down 10. I'm like, Curry's gonna make a run. The Clippers crowd is gonna get really nervous and it's gonna be awesome. Just wait, and then he does it.
- [06:59]
A
That's because you're a Clipper fan and you've seen that. Like, I. Bill, I'm saying this because I've experienced it. I could feel the anxiety through the TV from the crowd. Like, you can literally feel it as. And it was great, too, because for most of the game, you didn't hear the Golden State crowd at all. And then all of a sudden, Al Horford makes a couple of those threes because he's as good as Steph was. And he was amazing. Al Horford saved that game.
- [07:32]
B
Yes, he did. And Porzingis kept them hanging around. He was good, too. There was a little guy Santos in there and then Curry did his stuff. And it was interesting that the way the. The way the intuit is where they have the wall, and it's all real Clipper fans. Right. So the whole side of the arena is all Clipper fans. The other side of the arena was basically all Golden State fans because they bought in on that side.
- [07:56]
A
Yeah. I couldn't figure out where the noise was coming from. It was.
- [07:58]
B
It was. It was to my right, facing the court. And so Curry gets going, and when he hits that shot with 50 seconds left, which you knew was coming, and the way he goes with Draymond, now, it's like they have this crazy, crazy ESP thing, and he hits it. People in my section left, and they didn't leave because they wanted to beat the traffic. They left because they were like, I've been doing this with the Clippers my whole life. I know how this game's going to end. I might as well leave now. It's like they were escaping like a horror movie house.
- [08:27]
A
It was rough. It was such an interesting game because it was texting back and forth. Callie was at the game, My daughter.
- [08:34]
B
Yeah.
- [08:35]
A
And I text her at the beginning of the game. Oh, this is the rough start for Golden State. And then at halftime, I said, oh, they're hanging around. And then my daughter's last text was in the fourth quarter with about eight minutes left. Said if they hang around long enough that Steph can see the finish line, he's going to take it. Yeah, that is exactly what happened. You know, it was an interesting game because I really thought there are three or four times where Golden State was close to letting go of the rope. You know, like, it felt like, you know, man, they're trying. And then I'm telling you, the four threes that Al Horford made, it just changed the light. It changed the light. And once it got to five and three, you knew what was headed. Now, I will say this. And Draymond. You know, I've gotten in more, like, discussions about Draymond. It's amazing how many discussions I've gotten into about Draymond, because I have fought for him being a Hall of Famer his whole. For five years now. Like, Draymond's a Hall of Famer to me. Yes. And you hear people. Well, he averages. What if he was on another team? What if he's a straight winner? Forget all the other stuff, you know, in last night's game, like, he was. His defense was. Was next worldly. I was surprised. I thought Kawhi would be more Aggressive and all that stuff. But I actually thought at times he was me fighting to get the ball every possession, getting bumped up the floor. I mean, it takes a toll. Kawhi probably very rarely fights or plays against someone that's bigger and stronger than him for a whole game. And I thought the game took a toll on Kawhi, and I thought it was Draymond's doing. So I don't think I have to make the case anymore at the last night's game because I thought Draymond's. It just shows you how important we. We factor in offense so much, Bill. And there's so many, like, hall of Fame defensive role players. And Draymond's the case. Dennis Rodman is one. You know, there's certain guys that can do what they do at a Hall of Fame level. And, you know, Draymond deserves his flowers.
- [11:08]
B
Yeah. It was interesting watching it in person. Cause he was doing that from the first minute.
- [11:13]
A
Yeah.
- [11:14]
B
And he was so intense and so crazy that I was saying to my son, like, I actually think it's 50, 50. He gets thrown out of this game. Like he's too. He's too fired up. And it was like he was testing the reps early to see how far he could go, yelling at them, intimidating them. But he was really wearing down Kawhi. And I thought Kawhi was tired at the end of the game. Cause he doesn't normally play minutes like that.
- [11:36]
A
No. And that. Hard minutes. Not throughout. And. And. And if you want to be a great defender in NBA, you have to be stubborn as hell. You have to be hard headed as hell. Because at the beginning of that game, Kawhi was kicking his butt. Kawhi was scoring. He was in Draymond. What I loved about it is Draymond never wavered. It's almost like, okay, great, you score. Keep doing it. Okay, you scored again. Keep doing it. I'm gonna be right here. And by the end of the game, it's like, I guess how it would be like fighting Muhammad ali after the 5000th gap. You're exhausted and you wear down. And that's how it felt like, you know, Draymond just kept jabbing away, kept jabbing away, kept jab. And then by the end, Kawhi was worn out, you know, and it felt that way.
- [12:23]
B
Well, you know, you talk about the great defenders of all time. Draymond gets in your personal space in a really unique way, and he takes these little steps to stay with you. And Kawhi was trying to, like, almost Move backward and get away with them. And Draymond just follows him. And I was thinking, like, how many guys like that in the history? Because the best two guys I've ever seen perimeter defenders are Pippin and Kawhi. Ironically, Draymond's like, just a whiff under there, but I still think for the non centers, he's gotta be one of the five or six best non center defenders ever, right?
- [12:56]
A
Ever. For sure. I do think Dennis Rodman was the third.
- [13:01]
B
Rodman's the third one.
- [13:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah, he would be. He would be the other one. Like he.
- [13:04]
B
Would you put Iguodala in there?
- [13:07]
A
No, because he was more of an offensive player when he first started.
- [13:10]
C
Yeah.
- [13:10]
A
You know, so I would not. But, you know, I remember Dennis Rodman playing, and I was. And I actually used to say this. I'd rather have Pittman Garvey than Rodman. And that's. That's a hell of a statement because neither. Neither one of them. Your day is not going to go well either way.
- [13:28]
B
Right.
- [13:29]
A
But they both were just. Just gritty and. And Dennis is more. Draymond's more like Dennis. Because Dennis got under your skin.
- [13:37]
B
Yeah.
- [13:38]
A
Just starved the hell out of you. Yeah, that's.
- [13:41]
B
He's probably fourth on that list, but it's a good. Really good list if you're doing the non primitive. So Curry, it was, you know, watching him. I don't think he's healthy, first of all. I think he's probably 85%, I would say. And kept readjusting his knee, which is a sign. There's a couple, like, hard drives he did where you and. I don't know if the TV was picking this up the same day, but just watching his body. Lang, you can really pick stuff up during the fouls when there's stoppages and the eyes aren't on the players.
- [14:09]
A
Yeah.
- [14:10]
B
And you could just see him, like, kind of stepping on it, seeing what hurts.
- [14:15]
A
That's how we got in the conversation. I text Cali and I say, cali is Steph. Okay.
- [14:20]
B
Right.
- [14:20]
A
Because you remember that drive he had to pull hard. He actually left the game and went back first quarter.
- [14:26]
B
Yeah.
- [14:26]
A
Yeah. I was worried, actually. He didn't come back for a while. And I'm thinking, is he coming back? And then when he came back, he missed a couple of layups. He definitely was laboring. But it just. I mean, it just tells you how these guys are built. And I always say these guys, meaning the 1 percenters and the rest of the league is not, because I don't know where he went in the third quarter, but he came out in the third quarter, and he looked different. He was playing his life. It's like the light bulb, it came back on. And maybe because the Clippers didn't put the game out of reach and he saw that, man, we can get this. But even when you see that very few people can reach what he did, he was amazing in the second half. And it was always. There's certain guys when you watch. It's a man that's beautiful how they play. He plays a beautiful game. That last play should be studied because it's a misdirection football play. You know, he throws the ball and goes right, snaps back, left by going over the top. Brook kind of picks off the guy Garden, Steph. And so if you watch the guy Garden, Stephen was going under Brook, so he couldn't get back to him. And then when he steps back and makes the shot, you knew it was going in. But to get to it, you know, like, listen, Bill, if I had a ball, if I was in a game and I did that, I would surprise the team because they were like. But the whole. Everyone knew what Draymond and Steph. I mean, they knew exactly. And you still couldn't stop it. It just tells you how great he is.
- [16:11]
B
Well, I mean, it's stupid to say, but winning is a skill.
- [16:15]
A
It is.
- [16:16]
B
And I thought that's why they won the 22 title. I don't think they necessarily had a better team than Boston, but they just kind of like, oh, you're going to leave this hanging here for us? All right, we'll take it. And Curry just took it, which I think, you know, I. I don't know where he's right for. Historically, for me, when I have my pyramid that I do every year, and there's like, this group of him and west and Kobe that are all next to each other, and I think they're very. They have to be in the. In the clump together. And it's like the 9, 10, 11 range of the best players of all time, and each for their generation, they were the guy. Right? And I don't. I don't even know how you calculate who was more important than who. But the thing with.
- [16:56]
A
It's tough. It's tough.
- [16:58]
B
The thing with Curry, though, that I don't even. West was like, Mr.
- [17:02]
A
Clutch.
- [17:03]
B
Kobe had a bunch of great moments. There's something about what Curry does to the crowd on the road that I think is unique to him. I can't think of Any other players that do it. Like maybe Ray Allen, who wasn't even nearly as good of a player as Steph, but something about when they're going, the crowd kind of gets kind of staggered by it.
- [17:25]
A
Reggie Miller had a little bit of
- [17:26]
B
Reggie's like that, too. It's a good one.
- [17:28]
A
Yeah. When he got going. And it's mostly the jump shooters. Yeah. But Steph demoralizes the other team more than any of those guys. When Steph gets going, he can turn a visiting crowd into a home crowd, which you don't see anybody. Maybe Michael had the ability to do that.
- [17:51]
B
Well, Michael definitely had the ability to do that. Yeah. I was kind of leaving him over here. I was.
- [17:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. I always do.
- [17:56]
B
Like, yeah, yeah, he's. He's over here. We're not even mentioning.
- [17:59]
A
I know it, but I've seen it. Like, he takes the steam out of your team when he gets going. I mean, he's hopping around, you know, like you want to kill him. Like I always said, if I was playing against him, I'd want to kill him. Because he does things that you don't see and it takes the win out of your sails. It really does. That three was a dagger. It was a killer.
- [18:27]
B
Well, he also had that dancing lefty flip layup. They're down 5. It's like, what the fuck was that?
- [18:34]
A
So nonchalant. Like, it's not, I think, the most. The thing that people miss the most with Steph, because he's this nice guy, right? He does all the charitable work. Everything he says is right. Like, he's the most coachable star. And one day we're going to have a pod about that. Why Steph has won over some of the other guys. And because I'm a coach, I really believe a lot of it is because he allowed himself to be coached.
- [19:02]
B
Right.
- [19:03]
A
And I think that's part of it. But what we miss with him is he's a stone cold blooded killer, just like Kobe and Michael. He just doesn't come off that way. But he's exactly like them. And people miss that with him. They misforecast him, his toughness and his grit. They really do.
- [19:25]
B
Do you think it's not going to be this year's team? Is there a world where he's ever on a really relevant team again or is it too late?
- [19:35]
A
It's never too late. You know, it takes one move, you know, you just. You know how it works. You just never know.
- [19:45]
B
So you still think he could be maybe not what he was in 22. But he could be almost like what you had with KG and Ray and Pierce, everybody. One of the three.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. But he needs help. I think the reason he's injured, been injured a lot this year, is he's been carrying a heavy load.
- [20:03]
B
Well, he's running so much. Even like yesterday, watching him hurt, seeing the amount of running he's doing, just to stop and start stuff, that's what
- [20:12]
A
I'm so surprised at, that he's been able to sustain, you know, LeBron, his athleticism, his size, you can see it. But because of the way Steph plays, I just. If you had asked me six years ago that Steph would still be doing it now, I would have said, no way, there's no way. But if you watch his workouts, and I'm sure you've heard about him, then you understand why he's in the condition. But even that, at some point you think even that's going to wear them down. And so far it hasn't.
- [20:47]
B
So who was the best player you went against this year? Who was the one, like, if you had to stack them, who was the one that you were like, wow.
- [20:55]
A
Well, that's never been asked, Bill. That's a good question. Wimby would be.
- [21:02]
B
Ironically, that was the best player I saw in person this year, where it was like, wow, this is like, I haven't seen anything like this.
- [21:09]
A
Yeah, it's just so different. And he does so many things. You have to prepare for him differently than everybody else. He can't get behind you. Like he literally cannot defensively, he cannot get behind you in the pain. If he does, they throw it up and there's nothing you can do about it. You know, you have to shoot his recovery. You can beat him off the dribble at the free throw line, but you're not going to get the shot off. You know, Manute Bowe, if you remember Manute Bowe, Manute Bowe had that kind of coverage, you know, where you thought you had him beat and then you got to the rim and you would try to go under the rim to reverse it to guard him, and he still got it. When Wemby does that, his shot, he's not a. He's a really good three point shooter.
- [22:03]
B
A good free throw shooter too.
- [22:05]
C
Like, you can't foul shooter.
- [22:07]
A
And he's finally shot now, like at the end of the game, he knows, if I can get to the elbow, kind of like Dirk, you just gotta hope, like when you're guarding him, all you're doing is Hoping he misses because there's nothing you're doing defensively. I do think the guards would get up under him and get into his body. The stronger, lower base guys have a better chance of guarding them than the longer guys. He's just so talented. And he's another guy that has the Kobe Michael mean streak.
- [22:37]
B
Right.
- [22:38]
A
And I love that about him as well.
- [22:40]
B
Did you. Was he noticeably better this year than last year to you?
- [22:44]
A
Yeah, I don't know if it was number one. Yes. Because he was more sure of what he was doing.
- [22:51]
B
Yeah.
- [22:52]
A
But I don't know where it came from. But this killer, like, he had it last year, but he's ramped it up. It's almost like he's taking names, you know, like, okay, you got me last year. That's how you feel that he's playing, that he remembers everything that went on last year against him, and he's turning that into energy.
- [23:17]
B
Interesting, because the other guy that jumped out when I saw them was Castle, who seemed who I voted for first team. By the way, I have to ask you about my vote later because I'm wavering on one, but I. I put Castle on first team, all defense, because I'm like, what more do you want from a perimeter guy on defense than this?
- [23:36]
A
That's what makes the Spurs. You know, Wimby is amazing, right?
- [23:40]
B
Yeah.
- [23:40]
A
But all their guards are guards, King, guard, like, every single one of them. I think that's what people miss with the Spurs. That's how good they are defensively.
- [23:49]
B
Yeah.
- [23:50]
A
Now Wimby has figured out how to not how to switch and stay in the paint without going out to corners and stuff like that. And, you know, I worry, like, the one team that could make them struggle, maybe if you can get a guy that he's guarded that is really shooting the ball well from the three to pull him out a little bit, you have a little bit of a shot.
- [24:15]
B
That's probably Denver, Right. It's because that's either Gordon or Jokic trying to pull him away from the basket a little.
- [24:21]
A
And they're passing, but I tell you, their guards, they put pressure on you. It's real pressure. Like they're up into you. And, you know, I had a couple years when I was a player early in my career, we had three Rollins and Dan Brownfield. And if you're from Boston, you know who Tree Rollins is clearly Tree Vice, man. You know, I felt my first couple years I could really be aggressive because I'm like, go in there. I dare you. I mean, that's how you feel. They're playing like they're so up into you and they're pressuring you so much. It's almost like they're saying, if you want to, you can drive, but it's not going to be good for you. And they play that way.
- [25:11]
B
You told me, we were talking before the playoffs last year, and you were telling me about Indiana. This was not on a podcast. This was just us texting about it. And you were telling me how difficult they were because of what they were doing, pressuring defensively, and just people don't realize what a bitch it is to play against them. And I really started watching and I thought Indiana was my big sleeper to make the. To make the finals last year because it was like, yeah, they're doing something. I don't know if people fully realize it yet. And now you saw the league emulated this year, and there are all these teams trying to pick up full pressure, and it feels like this new wave of what. But you must have. Being in the middle of coaching, you must have noticed, like, a difference this year, right?
- [25:53]
A
Oh, yeah. You knew it's coming. Like, the league is pretty easy to predict. Like, where everybody's going. Oklahoma went City, very physical on the ball. They reach, they grab, they hold, they slap, they strip. They won. So every team is going to try to do their version of that. And so you knew it was going to go that way. San Antonio does it. It's easy for them to do. Indiana did it. There's a couple other teams. Detroit, Fiskel, pressuring the ball.
- [26:26]
B
Minnesota can do it, too. When they play IO and McDaniels and Anthony, altogether, they can do.
- [26:32]
A
And when. And when they're sane, like, Minnesota can beat anybody and lose anybody. That's just who they are, man. But you know, that's. I tell you, if I'm Denver, that's a rough first round. That just is because they beat Denver. And that's why, you know, I look at, like, Boston, New York, I'm like, no, that can be a scary thing as well, because Boston, New York beat Boston. I don't care what you say. Confidence is just like you were talking about winning.
- [27:00]
B
Yeah.
- [27:01]
A
When you win against someone in a series, you believe you can beat them no matter how good they are. You start believing that and it becomes hard. I'll tell you what ball pressure does, though, in a circle about our conversation, it shortens the clock. All you have to think about, it shortens the clock. Instead of running your offense for 20 seconds and you're getting it you're starting your offense at 14. You may not even start it with the guy you want to start it with. You know, you may have taken the ball out of his hands and so you're wasting your time trying to get it back into the right guy's hands. And now there's 10 seconds. Like, if you can convince your team, if you have a team built like that, guys, if you pressure the ball, all we have is 12 seconds of defense to play every possession. It makes you a better defensive team, and that's why teams are doing it well.
- [27:50]
B
And the talent pool in the league now, where you can have a team like the Celtics that have Walsh and Hugo Gonzalez and Shireman and you know, Pritchard White and they could just kind of keep going and Ron Harper Jr. They're bringing in. It just feels like everybody's so. Because that we've talked about this before, but like your 2012 Celtics team, kind of the last hurrah team.
- [28:13]
A
Yeah.
- [28:13]
B
And you go back and you look at the depth on that team and some of the guys that were playing versus like the depth that teams have now, like, Ron Harper Jr. Is good. Ron Harper Jr. Would, would play real minutes on playoff teams and he can barely get out there for the Celtics. And I feel like a lot of teams have these extra guys like that. And I'm sure this is one of the reasons they're thinking about expansion, because the, the talent's there. I don't think they still.
- [28:36]
A
Well, the talent's there. It's, it's, it's going to go away once they expand, you know?
- [28:41]
B
Right, true, true.
- [28:42]
A
I think about, you're talking to a guy that came in the league with 23 teams.
- [28:46]
B
Right.
- [28:47]
A
And so each time it expanded the talent pool and the benches got thinner and thinner and thinner. But it also comes down to the front office building and management. Like, Brad's done an amazing job. Brad was a really, really good coach. He's a better front office guy. Like, he really is. Like, he's all the guys he had anybody could have taken. It's not like he's taking these guys. I'm not, I'm not talking about the Jalen.
- [29:16]
B
I'm talking about like Shireman and people like that. Yeah, yeah.
- [29:21]
A
Anybody had a chance to grab these guys, but they did and they keep doing it, you know.
- [29:26]
B
And so they got Keda from the Kings. He was like a second round draft
- [29:30]
A
pick of the Kings and wasn't playing. He played a little bit. But they're evaluating their spur, like lately, you know, like they're evaluating the talent. They evaluate the type of guys that fit. They know Joe, they know what Joe will stand for and won't stand for. And they're, they're hitting a home run. That's a home run. Like you got to give them credit. They've been amazing.
- [29:50]
B
So Missoula this year, who was, I thought, incredible. I'm voting for him for a coach of the year non homer pick. I just can't. I don't know how they won 56 games.
- [29:59]
A
I still understand homer pick, but I'm going to go with you on that one a little bit. On that one.
- [30:05]
B
They started at 03 and finished 56 and 26 and I still don't understand what happened.
- [30:11]
A
He's done it. Amazing. I did tell you that I thought there would be a playoff take. Yeah, but, but I didn't. I mean, come on. He's had, he's done. It's, it's, it's. He's done an amazing job. This I would say is the first year in a long time that there could be five guys that if they won coach of the year, maybe even higher that you could say. I can see that.
- [30:36]
B
So you got Bickerstack, Bickerstaff, Jordan Knott. Would you put on there.
- [30:41]
A
Jordan Knott is one.
- [30:43]
B
Mitch Johnson.
- [30:44]
A
Mitch Johnson is one.
- [30:45]
B
So who's your fifth one?
- [30:46]
A
Joe Missoula is one.
- [30:48]
B
Yeah.
- [30:48]
A
So that's four. And I can't think of my fifth. But I just told someone a fifth. So my point is it's amazing. It's been really cool to watch and the Jordan odds and even Mitch in a way like Jordan, it's really impressive to watch because they lost talent.
- [31:16]
B
Right.
- [31:17]
A
And got better. You know, he came in and changed their way.
- [31:22]
B
Charles Lee was your fifth one?
- [31:24]
A
Charles Lee is my fifth one. Yeah.
- [31:26]
B
Yeah. I was, I was, I was listening to. But I was also like, who was the. Yeah, the. Charles Lee's the fifth one.
- [31:31]
A
Charles Lee's the fifth one. Like we played him early in the year. We beat them 3 out of 4 right. Early in the year. And I came in our coaches meeting because we played them like on a Monday and then on a Friday and it was right. Doing the mid season tournament thing. And when we played them the second time and beat them, Peter Fagan who was with the Bucks and become a really good friend of mine, he said, man, they're going to be good. I said, they are good. And he's like, what do you mean? I said they're here. I said, they're here now. And he's like, no, I don't see that. I said, oh, no, they're here right now. They're coming now. I didn't know they were going to make the run that they made, but we played well that game because it was one of the tiebreakers at that time. We played well. Probably one of our hardest, best played games, and it took everything to beat them.
- [32:32]
B
Wow.
- [32:32]
A
And I thought, you know, obviously, I think Khan changed their culture. Like, there are certain players that have the ability, Kevin Garnett, to walk in and change the culture without words, but with his actions. And I think Khan has kind of done that. And now Lamelo and all the other guys are doing it as well. They've kind of bought in to that. And then.
- [32:57]
B
I'm glad you said that, because that. Yeah, it's been a polarizing Rookie of the Year vote. Right. And I voted for Khan.
- [33:03]
A
Yeah.
- [33:03]
B
And, you know, part of me is I value the winning, even though I know you're not supposed to do the Rookie of the Year that way, but I think. I personally think you should. But I thought, first of all, he played a shitload of games in a bunch of minutes for them. Right. Which he played like 2,500 minutes and 79 games. But I thought I was talking the other day about, like, the gravity of him out there, and he's really the only guy that moves. And his constant movement sets up everything else that they're doing combined with, like, he rebounds, he plays defense, he's unselfish,
- [33:36]
A
he plays the role.
- [33:37]
B
You have to have a guy like that.
- [33:38]
A
You do. And if it's one of your better players, then your team is better. You know, you can make a case. Early in the year, Charlotte was probably thinking about moving guys, you know, moving Lamelo, moving Bridges. Bridges. And now you watch them, they're playing like winners. Miller should be up for one of the most improved players.
- [34:00]
B
Yeah.
- [34:01]
A
I mean, but all that is from winning and playing the right way. And they. What's great is they didn't do it early, but they kept at it. They kept playing the right way, and then they called fire. I thought the sneakiest move that Charles made with putting Diabate in the starting lineup, I thought he was like a glue guy defensively, and he is as good as anybody in the league. Offensive rebounding, he's a tear on the glass. He won. Like, I know Mello Lamello played great Bridges, but he won that game against Miami. He kept giving them extra shots, and that's invaluable.
- [34:41]
B
This rookie class was spectacular.
- [34:43]
A
Great flag.
- [34:44]
B
Who? I feel terrible not voting for rookie of the year. Cause I think he's going to be a possible generational guy, right? And it's not his fault his team stone. Yeah, he's. I think he's going to be fine. Dylan Harper. I was even in the preseason like, okay, I guess, I guess we're doing this watching him and he. I was saying a while ago, he reminds me of more of a guy like from your era like that he's not really a three point shooter. He can shoot him, but he really wants to get close to the basket. He wants to bang bodies, he wants to field dudes against him before he decides what to do. Like he's out of like 85.
- [35:22]
A
Yeah, he plays like a grown man. Like he finishes in traffic as well as anybody in our league. And he's a rookie. Like he is going to attack like he's another guy. You know how we were talking about Steph, you know, he's looking for this shot. You know when Dylan's coming at you, he's not looking to shoot a jumper. He's trying to get to the basket, right. And he's like, stop it. Because I don't think you can. The toughness of that team, like you think about those guys, you just, you know, they've added. Every guy they've added is tough.
- [35:54]
B
It sounds like you think they're going to win the title.
- [35:57]
A
I think they could. I do worry about, I mean if you watched the game last night, Golden State won because they had a bunch of vets that just know how to win. And that's the only thing that scares me with San Antonio. And then the only other thing is can they shoot the ball well enough when it's time to shoot the ball? Like they can shoot, they're a good shooting team. But can they shoot it well enough down the stretch? That would be the two. Defensively, they'll be fine.
- [36:28]
B
I have three concerns and they're all small. One is Wemby holding up for 10 weeks because he's 7 foot 7 and I just, I'm always worried about him and I think people are going to be really physical with him. So that's one. Two is the shooting, especially when they're like up 1012 and they don't really have that inside outside. It's really Harper, but I don't think they're going to have him out there in these situations. But that guy who could just kind of create a shot that's not a three or it's not a Wimby play.
- [36:56]
A
Yeah, Fox. Fox can do that a little bit with the in between game.
- [36:59]
B
So he's. The third one is Fox, who's used to being the guy, but now he's on this team with all these different weapons and he's got to step back and do the 1989 Isaiah.
- [37:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I don't think he's navigated. I think he's navigated pretty well this year. Like you can see in games, he picks and chooses. Some games he's aggressive, some games he's not. Early in the year I was worried about it. And then as the season went on, I'm like, man, he's kind of. Kind of accepted. Right.
- [37:25]
B
Cause they started winning. They put together winning streaks on that side. I just wonder in the playoffs if it gets like to nutcrunch time. I'm just going to be. Because they're going to need him. He's going to have to be the guy who's like, guys, I got this.
- [37:38]
A
He's going to have to be the guy. It's going to have to be him at times. But they're sitting in the kitchen sink at Wemby and so I agree with that. I think it would have to be him.
- [37:48]
C
So.
- [37:49]
B
So do you believe in that the old guys on the couch philosophy of you? The bright lights are really bright and you have to have played in a few of these to really understand that. Because you can even feel that in the Charlotte playing game. It's like, oh, this is a different level of pressure, guys. These threes are going in now.
- [38:06]
A
I mean, Khan didn't even get back in.
- [38:07]
B
No, no.
- [38:09]
A
He's 20 and he actually did have that look like.
- [38:13]
B
Right.
- [38:13]
A
But I don't. I just think there's something different about them. You know, we thought that about Oklahoma and then they couldn't win the first year. Then they came back. So it's. If you just believe in history, you would have to say the history says no. But I think my eyes tell me something different is about them. I wouldn't be shocked if they won't and I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't. You know what I mean by that? Because of that. So. But they're fun to watch.
- [38:46]
B
So they would have to basically beat Denver in round two. They would then have to beat OKC in round three and then somebody good from the east in round four. That would be the best.
- [38:56]
A
Yeah. And they're going to have three physical series. Portland is.
- [39:01]
B
Let's talk about Portland. Yeah, they're a little dangerous.
- [39:04]
A
Portland is dangerous because Portland has size. Yeah, they have size and they have real defenders. Like they can defend one through five. So that series, San Antonio is going to win. But I'm telling you, it's not going to be an easy series. Where Portland will struggle is can they score enough?
- [39:26]
B
Yeah, Denny. Or bust. You can feel that even in the playing game. He was made 41, but.
- [39:31]
A
And I hadn't even looked at those head to head. But my guess is what, what, what he does is drive to the basket. Well, that's what Wimby does, too, defensively, you know, he's going to have to get those same layups over Wimy.
- [39:48]
B
Right.
- [39:48]
A
So that's, that's going to affect him a little bit.
- [39:50]
B
Yeah. Cause he, he's one of those guys, he goes right every single time and you're like, just play him so he doesn't go right. It's like, okay. And then he goes right again. It's like, why did you let him go right?
- [40:01]
A
Benny Johnson. Yeah. Vinnie Johnson of the business went right. Mike Fratello cussed me out 50 times. And I'm like, in my brain, I'm like, coach, I swear to God, I'm trying to make him go left, but he just won't. He keeps going right.
- [40:16]
B
It was like that the other way. Going left.
- [40:18]
A
Yeah, going left.
- [40:19]
B
I know you're going left. I can't stop you, but I know you're doing that.
- [40:22]
A
Yeah, I mean, I was like half of all those guys, but I was only going right. And I remember late my career, a rookie walked up to me before, you know, the jump off. Hey, Doc, you're not going right today. And you know what I told him? I said, well, I'm not going left, right. So something's going to happen. And that's what these guys think. Like, I'm good at going left. You're not going to take me away from it. And he thinks I'm good at going right. You can do all that stuff, but I'm getting there.
- [40:49]
B
I wish Portland wasn't playing San Antonio because it, it's funny, the upset teams, to me heading into round one were Portland and Atlanta. And then each of them ended up with a draw that you just don't want them to have, Right. Portland, Wemby's just the Loch Ness Monster waiting for them. And then Atlanta was all set up to play Cleveland and then effed up the last day of the season and now they have to play the Knicks.
- [41:15]
A
Yeah, I still wouldn't Want to play Atlanta? They're good, they're long, they're athletic. What they've done right before trade deadline is bringing shooters in and adding shooting to that team with the size and the length they have is unbelievable. You know, Brunson is going to. They're going to put everybody on. It's going to be a hard number. Brunson has his numbers. He's killed Atlanta, you know, in the regular season. He probably will in the playoffs because he's that special. But he's going to get worn out. Like that is not a team you want to see. New York better do quick work or it's going to be a dangerous series.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah, I was looking at the odds for the series on FanDuel and the Knicks are like three to one favorites. It feels like a seven gamer to me. Yeah, maybe six, but at least six, maybe seven. The problem when you play the Knicks, this is my fear for the Celtics too, is you feel like. Feel like you have him for 44 minutes and then it's like a three point game with four minutes left. Now they're in the Brunson versus your best guy contest. And he's really good at that.
- [42:25]
A
Yeah, it's certain teams, like if you're playing the Lakers, you know, when they're healthy, well, all you have to do is get the game to the last five minutes, Right.
- [42:34]
B
And then it's Duka versus whoever you have. Yeah.
- [42:37]
A
And then reaves like there's certain teams like that, you know, when you're playing the Knicks, you know, if it gets to a single possession game, they got Brunson and then they got this guy Cat standing out at the three that will make a shot on you. They become very difficult. That's why the Celtics are tough. You know, they got two guys, you know, plus they do it all game, but they have two guys down the stretch that can take over a game. When you have multiple guys, it's tough. It really is.
- [43:08]
B
What were you surprised that they were able to slide Tatum back into the minutes and juggle whatever? Jalen's having this, you know, one of the great late bloomer, borderline MVP candidate seasons and he's finally the guy now. Here comes Tatum. Now I gotta balance that. You know, that can go great or
- [43:29]
A
that could have gone. That could have gone bad, but.
- [43:32]
B
Right.
- [43:33]
A
They had.
- [43:33]
B
What did you think was going to happen?
- [43:35]
A
I didn't know. I did, you know, obviously I talked to Sam all the time, but I did think they had the equity of a title. And so that kind of Makes them want to play. Right, Right, right. I also thought Joe did his best work there. Like, he made it clear this is Jaylen Brown's team this year. And then you got to give a ton of credit to Tatum. He just wanted to play. Like, he just wants to play. He wants to be Tatum, and he's going to be Tatum. But, you know, listen, I think in Tatum's mind is, I'm back, I'm healthy. I have a chance to win another title. And Jaylen Brown was the MVP of the last finals, so it's not a big deal to me. I just want to win. So there was a lot of things going for them, but it could have went really bad, and it has not now. They haven't gotten into the playoffs yet. So if they get pushed, we may see something, but I don't think so. I think they are a made team. You know what I mean by that? Like, they understand each. Each guy understands his role. And Joe does a great job of accountability. He really does.
- [44:46]
B
Well, I said this the other day on a pod, that it's his team, which is how this solved itself. It's not Jalen's team or Jason. It's actually Joe Bazzula's team. So we saw that. That way he's running.
- [44:56]
A
That's exactly right. And he makes that clear.
- [44:59]
B
It's. You know, it says a lot about where the NBA is in 2026. Cause I think those guys. Those guys aren't best friends, but they're good. And I think they both want the same thing. But what can happen? And you. You had a lot of this happen to you the last 12 months with the Bucks, but it's all the people around the guys, and it's all the insider. And this guy heard this and that heard that, or somebody who, you know, is friends with one of the players and they're saying something on a show or a pod, and this stuff takes a life of its own that doesn't
- [45:31]
A
even start, you know? And, like, there's if. If everyone wrote an article about someone having to blow up in a locker room, every team would be on blast. You know? You know what I mean? There's so. People have no idea, Bill, how often and how much that happens. And honestly, I've always thought it should happen. If you lose a bad game, there should be some tension. There should be some tension. That's part of it. And the good teams get through it, though. They look at it and they take growth from it. And the average and the bad teams let it hold Them now, they still hold on to gets out. You know, people talk about it, that player said this or coach. Those are the bad teams. Those are the guys who. The good teams. You don't find out about it, they keep it inside. They make it part of their growth, their strip. All right, let's fight about this. Let's take another step. And to me, you can see. And I've always said the most beautiful thing in the world is the Finals, because you have two teams usually, that have committed themselves completely to the team. They've literally given themselves to the team, and they play that way. And that's why watching the Finals is so beautiful, because there's no B.S. there's no fighting. This is my team. And if there is, that team's got to lose. Like, it's so obvious. I always looked at the first Miami year with LeBron Wade. They didn't win because they played a team. The spurs, who were completely Mavericks. Yeah, the Mavericks, who. They were so together.
- [47:15]
B
Yeah.
- [47:16]
A
You know, Deshaun Stevenson, I remember, was a kid that started, and Rick put him on the bench, and no issues, right? There was no issues. Like, it was about the team and winning. And so then the next year, they came back and they were like that. But they had. That lesson was taught to them, you know, and so.
- [47:39]
B
Well, think about the flip side of that, because I think a good example for this is the 2019 warriors, that third KD season, and they had that thing happen with Draymond and KD in the Clipper Game, which. Were you coaching the Clippers that year?
- [47:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, I was coaching. Yeah.
- [47:53]
B
And you knew that was different. It felt different on the court. It felt. You could see it on the bench. It was like, oh, this is a bad one. And it turned out it was a bad one.
- [48:02]
A
Yeah, it was the first time he was real.
- [48:03]
B
Yeah.
- [48:04]
A
You know, like, you remember that game. Draymond took that shot that. Since the game in the overtime, and they looked awful in overtime. We went on and won the game. And then I heard afterwards. You know, it's so funny. Like, as a coach, you don't know any of this crap is going on. You're coaching your team. And then. Then in the press conference, that's all they're asking me about. And I'm like, guys, I didn't know that was going on. I'm happy it's going on. It's the other team. But that never left them, that stuck with them.
- [48:38]
B
The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. NBA fans. This is your reminder to check in daily. And I mean daily. Because every day during the playoffs FanDuel is serving up a happy hour special. Drops you won't want to miss profit boosts, bonus bets much more. The best part, it's every single day, including today as we head toward the playoffs. I was looking at series parlay steps. As you know I love to pick upsets. I had Indiana last year. I love nothing more than a round one upset with a nice, juicy, juicy underdog number. I don't see it this year. I really think the best series bet is a four series parlay with the spurs and Boston money lines along with the Denver money line and the New York money line. And all four of those series would have to win. And it was plus 120 on FanDuel and I think that's the one I would recommend the most outta any of these. I really wanted to take Toronto. I just don't think Toronto's gonna beat the Knicks. I think that series is gonna be good and close and I think it goes six or seven but I think the Knicks win anyway. Check that one out and I'm going to be tweeting picks and all kinds of stuff during the course of the playoffs and showing you your best FanDuel possibilities. We've been hot lately. Just just check out what's going on the last three Wednesdays slash Tuesdays we hit including Wednesday or Tuesday. Wednesday. Told you Portland. Take them against Phoenix. Parlay them with Charlotte Moneyline affiliate Moneyline. Everything we had so we're we have a little momentum right now. Check out FanDuel for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs. Don't miss your shot to get a little extra out of the action. Head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. 21/ select states are 18/DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com, game Prom Call 1-800-Gambler Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChatCunneticut this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Countless hours in the gym, 1000 shots before tip off, day after day on the same court with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right, the best players put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote or reach out to a local agent, State Farm is there to get to know you and help you select the right coverage that fits your life and your budget. Putting in the work is what separates the good players from the great. And that's why you want State Farm on your team. So get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. We didn't talk about Maxi and Philly. You love Maxi.
- [51:27]
A
I love them.
- [51:28]
B
Maxi was like one of your all time favorites from day one. You've, you've touted his virtues nonstop. He was awesome. This year I have him third. I had to third team all NBA just because I have to put a center on each team. But he's could have been second. And if they're going to give the Celtics any semblance of a chance, it's going to be because of him and Zach.
- [51:50]
A
Little guards bother Boston. Like they struggle with the quick, fast guys. And Maxi, it's just not that. He's just so quick and fast. He's now finishing left or right. He's an elite shooter. He's not a good shooter. He's an elite shooter. He's tough as nails and what he's really done and I'm so proud of him, he's become a leader. He is the leader of that team. There is no doubt about who's the leader of the Sixers. And it's really cool for a guy that, that young and such a great high character guy to have taken that step this quickly.
- [52:28]
B
Yeah. Cause that. So you mentioned they're not. Celtics aren't great against guards like that. They're also because they love offensive rebound and they're crashing the boards constantly and you don't get the board and the teams that just go, oh, boom, we're off. It's like hockey. It's like a two on one or a three on two. I think Max is the best in the league at that of like, oh, I have numbers. Boom. I'm, I'm going 700 miles an hour.
- [52:53]
A
Yeah, he doesn't even need numbers, but when he has numbers, true, you're in trouble. And where he's really improved is his tassic. Like, you know, in the year two years I had him, he could get to the basket, but he couldn't see a lot. Now, you know, he sees a lot. He's making guys better. And I'm just watching him this year. There's games like when Joel and Paul George were really. And Edgecombe were playing well. He kind of, he's fine with taking a step back and then when they need him, he takes Back over. So his growth has been unbelievable. They're not going to be easy to beat, you know, And I know everyone says Joel's not coming back. I don't believe that. I think he will play in the series, and I have no reason to say that. I just. I just think it's too important not to.
- [53:41]
B
I think we will see him at some point in the series, but probably a little later. And by the way, they might be down like, 3:1 by the time.
- [53:48]
A
Yeah. If you see him, then you may not see him, but if it's. You know, if you're Philly, you're thinking, if I can get one of these first two, and then I can win one at home, it's two, two, and then we get the big fella back.
- [54:02]
B
Right.
- [54:03]
A
There's pressure at it.
- [54:04]
B
Well, one thing. And you've seen that crowd in various stages of either just horrified or really great. They love Maxi and they love Edgecomb, and there's real energy. These home games. Like, you could feel it in that Orlando game. Like, they fucking love those guys. And I don't know. I think they're going to be tough to beat in Philly. Boston can't lose one of those first two. But honestly, if you lose one of those first two in this series to a Philly team without Embiid, then that probably says more about Boston. Like, they got to take care of business. You got to win the business.
- [54:38]
A
But, you know, good teams, they can and still win. You know what I mean?
- [54:42]
B
Yeah. No, I get it. It's just like, they.
- [54:44]
A
The smackdowns, they better play well because the longer the series goes on, it allows Joel to come closer to getting back. And you put Joel Embiid in that series. It's a tough series.
- [54:56]
B
I got an email from a listener because I've been doing more mailbag stuff.
- [55:00]
A
Wow. I don't dare listen to my mail.
- [55:04]
B
That's true. Somebody asked if Joel is the unluckiest superstar in the history of the NBA, and I think you can make a case for Bill Walton.
- [55:17]
A
Oh, wow. That's a good answer.
- [55:19]
B
But I think Joel has had more injury. More injuries to different parts of his body, and just things happen and bad luck and orbital bone, and Walton just had feet issues and beats. Like, it's like, pick a year. It's a different something.
- [55:34]
A
I mean, I remember the first. I had three years there. Right. The first year was the game five against Washington. The closeout game. Yeah, I thought. I thought he tore his knee. I mean, that looked bad. The second year. And I'm messing him up. Another knee injury. The third year he gets. No, the second year gets hit in the face.
- [55:54]
B
Right.
- [55:56]
A
And then he also hurts his hand. You remember he had the. To have surgery on his hand. He breaks his face bone so he has to wear a mask. Then the third year he had another. He had a meniscus injury. I'm like. And then this year he has appendix. I mean, come on. Like you can't make this stuff up. And so. Yeah, it's really rough because I'm telling you and I've told you this, he's as talented as I've ever seen. And I really believe, like if I had had him, especially the first year in that Atlanta series and he was healthy, I do believe we advance, you know.
- [56:35]
B
Well, we talked about that before. That's one of the all time. What the hell happened in that series? Series? I mean, Ben Simmons's career was never the same after that. He literally died during the series.
- [56:46]
A
No, it literally happened. You know, I was. We laugh about it. It wasn't funny at the time. I remember telling Sam Cassell in the Washington series, you know, they haven't filed Ben at all in the series. And I swear, game one, Atlanta or you're like, oh boy.
- [57:04]
B
And that was. Now he's a fisherman.
- [57:06]
A
Yeah, he's a professional fisherman.
- [57:08]
B
This guy was 13B A. He's not even in his 30s yet.
- [57:11]
A
That year he had with me there, he was amazing.
- [57:14]
B
Yeah.
- [57:15]
A
Like he looked like LeBron ish.
- [57:16]
B
A couple like in the full court
- [57:18]
A
stuff, it's like magic. Ish. Remember the decision we made was we put the ball in his hands full time.
- [57:24]
B
Yeah.
- [57:25]
A
And that was great until the playoffs. And when they start following them then he didn't want the ball anymore. And that crushed our offense. But man, is he. I'm telling you, I. I'm shocked that he's not playing basketball. He is so talented.
- [57:43]
B
We didn't talk about Detroit. What made them go up a level in your opinion? I have my thoughts. But what was different about them this year versus last year?
- [57:51]
A
Oh boy. That's a good question. Well, I thought Cade took a huge jump. Number one as good as K was last year. He's one of the top five players in the league now.
- [58:02]
B
Wow.
- [58:03]
A
Or in that area because there's so many guys. And then Durham took a jump that I didn't see coming. I never thought he would be able to score and play with the finesse game that he has played with this year. I didn't see that coming. You forget how young he is, Bill. And so I think that those two things are the reason they are where they're at. And then the last thing they did something that no team need to do, they bought into who they are. They really bought into their identity. You know, like when you hear Miami, you hear the Heat culture, right? And they buy into it. Well, Detroit basketball, they have bought into it. And I think that that carries a lot of weight for them. Yeah.
- [58:53]
B
And one of the reasons I had him second team all NBA Duran, is I felt like the physicality and the attitude they have. It kind of starts with him. Like, he's. He's out of, like your era. Like, you could see him, like, getting into it with Anthony mason in Game 5 of a Knicks Pistons series. He's. He's a complete throwback and carries himself that way, you know?
- [59:15]
A
No, he carries himself like he's the baddest man on the floor and there's nothing you can do about it. And then they have the ultimate guy off the bench who will fight anybody.
- [59:25]
B
Literally.
- [59:26]
C
He'll come off the bench to fight you.
- [59:27]
A
He'll come off and it's like, I love the comment he made in the one fight where he came off the bench and he said, what do you expect me to do?
- [59:35]
B
Right?
- [59:35]
A
Like, this is who I am.
- [59:37]
B
And they have Ron Holland, who's also ready to rumble.
- [59:39]
A
Yeah, they have a bunch of guys that, that are just. They're ready to go. And, you know, because he's one of my personal favorites, I'm just so happy for Tobias because it was so rough for him in Philly and now to see him be a leader, be the bat of the team is really cool. Like, I love when good things happen to good people and it's happening to Tobias and good for him.
- [60:04]
B
And they actually need him because there's.
- [60:06]
A
Oh, they need him.
- [60:07]
B
Without Cade, there's not a lot of guys who can create their own shot. And it's amazing how many times he had the ball with three minutes left, a minute 30 left, where he had to basically create a 17 footer from scratch. And he was able to do it. I thought he was really good this year.
- [60:22]
A
He's been great. And that's the only thing that scares me, is can they shoot well enough even though they're high, when they're looking at the offensive rating in top five or whatever? I still worry about, can they play well enough offensively to win? That'll be the. That'll be the biggest question.
- [60:43]
B
So what, what's your Finals then? Do you had who's coming out of the East. If you had to, if your life depended on it, who would you pick?
- [60:51]
A
Well, if.
- [60:52]
B
How about if Larry's life depended on it?
- [60:54]
A
Yeah, that's easier. I'm still going Boston. But the Knicks are dangerous. I know people want to. Want to crap on the Knicks and I.
- [61:06]
B
Your picture in the choir. I'm afraid of them.
- [61:08]
A
I just don't understand why. I get they didn't maybe play great every regular season game, but they're deep. They're deep and they can defend.
- [61:17]
B
They can defend wins, they can defend
- [61:19]
A
guards and they can score. And I would not be surprised the Knicks made it to the finals at all. So those are the two teams that I would have.
- [61:29]
B
My fear with the Knicks is there was a game Missoula kind of threw away the last Knicks game. Cause I don't think he wanted to show them anything. But he did have Tatum playing and he went. And Tatum needed to get over that hump of being at msg. Right. Which is the worst moment of his life. You got to get him back out there. And Anunobe was just doing the Draymond thing. He was just in his personal space the entire game. And really likes guarding Tatum. And Tatum is 96% back, 94% back. But the first step stuff still isn't totally there yet.
- [62:00]
A
I thought the explosive stuff is coming back, but not 100% there. I just, you know, like that. Like the Celtics destroyed the Knicks all year.
- [62:11]
B
Yeah, right.
- [62:12]
A
And then they beat him that last game. Like, I know that doesn't mean much and it usually doesn't. But in this case, because the Knicks beat him last year in the playoff series, the Knicks put it this way, the Knicks, when they play the Celtics, if they play the Celtics, they will not. They will think they're going to lacking confidence. They won't be. And that's where Detroit, when you look at Detroit, they haven't been through a first round yet. So in a lot of ways, and they're really. People forget how young Detroit is. Yeah, people talk about San Antonio in Oklahoma, but they don't talk about how young the Pistons are. And they're really young and they've never advanced. So this is going to be a big year for them to take that next step.
- [63:00]
B
You know what the secret Celtics sauce is that they didn't do in that next game? And I think they've been saving it is when they play Tatum at the five, which I think they're going to do. And I think Tatum Brown, a shooter and the two guards. I think it's going to be the lineup against the Knicks because they were playing Keda and crunch time against the Knicks. I just don't think they're going to do that. I think they're going to go smaller and try to. And just basically have shooting and just try to attack them. Attack towns.
- [63:28]
A
Try to attack smaller guy on town because he's away from the basket.
- [63:32]
B
Yeah.
- [63:32]
A
And one of the areas town struggles is when you get up under him. Yeah, he struggles with that. Now where I think people should give talents credit is he has learned now he goes down low way more and he's rebounding at an unbelievable clip. And I'm telling you, their rebounding is a factor.
- [63:53]
B
Right. Especially with Mitch and. Yeah, we didn't talk about Cleveland. Did you see post? Did you play them post, Harden, trade or no?
- [64:01]
A
Yeah, we played them twice. We beat them once, lost to them once.
- [64:06]
B
So defensively they're worse. Offensively they're more interesting. Is it like, you know, obviously as somebody, I'm talking about me, that has just lost all faith in James Harden as a playoff guy, but maybe he doesn't have to be as much of a playoff guy on this team. But what is it? He's.
- [64:23]
A
I don't know because I. This is what I say about James and you know, this is what I said about him when I coached him. The one thing I loved about him is he plays.
- [64:31]
B
Yeah.
- [64:32]
A
He never misses games. And I know that sounds trivial, but all the other guys do. He does it. He wants to play every day and he does that. What I've liked about him, Bill, is I don't know. And I always talked about that one year we had with him. In the first half of the year, he literally was a scoring point guard and we were amazing. And then that second half he wanted to start scoring again and it kind of upset the rhythm with Joel and all that. If he stays in that role where he's going to be a scoring like still facilitator. Yeah. But man, I'm telling you, his passing is so underrated. He's not just a. He's one of the elite passers in our league. And when he plays at that, where he's still aggressive scoring but really setting people up, they have two rollers like James Harden plays well with bids that roll. You know where he struggled with Joel is Joe would roll. Joe was like, I don't need to roll. I'm Joel B. Just give me the ball. But he has two bigs that roll. And so it's going to be interesting. I was surprised when I heard Kenny, you know, the press conference about their defense. I hadn't noticed it because we hadn't been watching him and I still haven't seen him enough to tell you. How much worse is it? I don't know that, um, but if they don't play defense, you're not winning, period.
- [65:58]
B
Yeah, the advanced metrics aren't great. It's. It's teams. It's an up and down team now. I think it's harder for them to get stops. They're kind of a wild card though because they're in the Detroit side of the bracket. Right. They lucked out. They have Toronto, who didn't beat any of the top three teams at all this year. And that's pretty easy series, I think. And then hopefully Detroit gets there in the headlights and all of a sudden you're in the. The Knicks and the Celtics beat the crap out of each other.
- [66:25]
A
Yeah, Toronto is another. I think Cleveland will win that series. But I. The one thing I'd say about Toronto is they're big and physical and they're going to bang you up, they're going to physically bother you. And even if it's a five game series, it's not going to be a physically easy series for Cleveland. That's going to be a very physical series.
- [66:47]
B
What was your quick LeBron James take, age 41, still doing like, did this just stop making sense to you like four years ago?
- [66:56]
A
Yeah, it stopped making sense five years ago.
- [66:58]
B
You were coaching TMAC at age 41.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's crazy, right? Like what? He's doing a couple of great things about LeBron. First of all, just physically come on, like, he had some dunks this year that hafta league could not do now.
- [67:15]
B
Right.
- [67:16]
A
And it's amazing. The other thing that he's done that most stars don't do, the old adage in coaching is never coach an aging superstar, they're going to get you fired. Every coach would tell, especially back in the day, don't take an aging superstar because they're going to keep thinking they can do what they could do 10 years ago and they can't. And you're going to have to be the guy that tells them. You know where I give LeBron credit is he did it himself. He kind of, he sees what Luka is. It's not hard to see, but he sees what Austin Reaves is and he gives them room. He's like, you know, when you need me, I'm over here. He plays the role and I listen. Most guys don't do that, and especially we're talking about one of the greatest players to ever play doing that. It says a lot about LeBron James, and, you know, people want to knock him and, you know, it says a lot about him as a human. It really does.
- [68:19]
B
So you're excited to watch him on Golden State next year with Steph Draymond and Al Horford?
- [68:23]
A
Yeah, yeah. I don't think he'll be. You don't think he'll be back with the Lakers?
- [68:28]
B
I. I would bet on Golden State. I think they're going to do the old guy, the Sylvester Stallone expendables. We're getting the. Our generation. Here we go. We're going to get everyone together.
- [68:40]
A
Let's get like Carl Malone, Gary Payton.
- [68:43]
B
Yeah, whatever version of that. Yeah, yeah. But the irony is the warriors could have really used somebody like LeBron last night. Like, he, you know, he's fills. He does a lot of stuff. So I'm watching. Who was your mvp? Just out of curiosity, who do you think should have won the MVP this year?
- [69:00]
A
Well, it's a tough one for me. Trey will probably win, and that's probably who I would have voted for. But Wemby, man, I keep going back to the defensive thing, like, why we don't give. A guy's enough credit for what they do defensively. And if Wemby won, wouldn't bother me.
- [69:23]
B
There was a moment when it seemed like he was going to. I don't think he, like, for me, well, he didn't. And he didn't have the minutes. Like, Jokic played, like, I think 400 plus more minutes than he did, and he barely got the minimum. I didn't like that he skipped the last game of the year when they had beaten Denver, they moved Denver down in the four seed. Like, why wouldn't you want to do that? What do you want to play Denver for?
- [69:45]
A
Yeah, I think that was more of a team choice, you know.
- [69:47]
B
Yeah, but that was a bad choice.
- [69:49]
A
Yeah. The. The other thing, though, is the joker, we have voter fatigue because, like, if you just went by numbers, he wins every year. You know, like, you know, there are a couple guys that wanted in Michael's heyday, but when you go back and look at the numbers, you're like, what were the voters doing? You know, what were they. What were they thinking?
- [70:13]
B
That that was like the year Malone. When Malone beat Jordan, that one year. It seems like the stupidest thing that ever happened now. So I Said the other day I was going to vote for sga and I was agonized over it because I was like, I can't believe I'm not voting for Yoga. And she had the best offensive season. Like, not only his career, but one of the best I've ever seen. And now because we. We don't have to turn our imbalance till this weekend because we had the appeals, I'm wavering. I might actually vote for Jokic because I'm like, I don't want to be ten years from now. Like, how did I not vote for Jokic? The guy led the way. Get assistant rebounds.
- [70:47]
A
People are going to look at the numbers. It's like, who didn't vote for this guy? You know, having said that, the numbers aren't always the whole story. And what Shay does every night, he's good every night.
- [71:03]
B
Yeah. Well, that's the Jaylen Brown case, too, of, like, when I know I'm getting 30 from my guy every night, my team can behave differently.
- [71:11]
A
Yeah. An efficient scoring. And what Shay also does is down the stretch, he takes the game over.
- [71:18]
B
Yeah. He's the best crunch time guy in the league. The stats say it. I test everything.
- [71:23]
A
You know it's coming and you can't do anything about it. Yeah. So that's why he'll win to me, because of that.
- [71:31]
B
Well, it sounds like you're picking Wemby.
- [71:33]
A
It's tough. I would probably pick Shay, honestly, but it really. It's tough for me not to pick Wemby because of the defensive portion. And as good as Shay is and Yoker, none of them play defense. None of them changed the game defensively like Wendy does.
- [71:49]
B
All right, we've come to the point when we have to talk about the Bucs season.
- [71:53]
A
Oh, Lord.
- [71:56]
B
It seemed horrible from afar. Didn't seem like a fun time.
- [72:00]
A
It wasn't, but it could have been. I will say that. Like the getting off to the start, you know, it's before the season. I said something to my coaches. There's two guys that can't get hurt. Giannis, obviously. And then scoot. Because we don't have any facilitators. You know, we're not. Like, we wasn't built like all the other team, where they had one and then a second star. We didn't have a second star.
- [72:30]
C
So.
- [72:31]
A
So for us to be a, you know, a good team, we weren't going to win anything. Bill. We're 26 in spending.
- [72:36]
B
Yeah.
- [72:37]
A
You know, so we probably outdid our record. If you match record for Record versus teams, who's going by spending. We probably were one of the better teams in that way. But at the end of the day, when you. When you start out like that and then the whole Giannis stuff, it was just not a lot of fun. It just wasn't.
- [72:58]
B
Yeah, because that started in July and just became a running narrative. But I got a lot of podcast content out of it. That was.
- [73:08]
A
I'm sure you did. But it, you know, for me, and I don't want to go into this alone, because I, I. It's a lot of it. Like, when you're around Giannis and then what you hear on the outside, it was two different worlds. And that's where, from a coaching standpoint, is very difficult, because I talk to Giannis every day, and you see these reports, and I'm like, I wonder that any of these guys have one conversation with Giannis, because I think a lot of people, at the end of the day were talking for him. I don't know if they necessarily were doing that in what he was actually saying. And it made things murky, and it made things very, very difficult. And then the end of season with this whole thing was rough. It was just tough.
- [73:59]
B
You talk about the shot, The Shams piece or.
- [74:02]
A
No, the Shams piece. I literally. I just try to ignore it because it's the point that I was making. Like, yeah, we had a tough meeting after a game that we blew. Like, again, if you go into any locker room, why is that news? Yeah, but it's more like the whole Giannis. Did he play? Not play? It was tough. And I saw it. Like, as a coach, I could literally see it from both sides of it, and I really could. And when I talked to Giannis and we talked a lot, I told him that, you know, and it's just, you know, where the human side of me, Bill, is. The Bucks front office has done an amazing job overall to win a title and to get there. They're good people. And then you have Giannis, who, I'm telling you, is a good person, and they're both over all this stuff. And I don't think Giannis knows if he wants to say or not. And I don't know if the organization knows one way or not either. And it just. It's too bad, because I just hope that part is figured out. When you win a title with someone, there's like, a blood transfusion, and that transfusion shouldn't be broken, and that part is the one that I want them to figure out. So it stopped yeah.
- [75:24]
B
Because you had that in Boston when the KG Pierce era was coming to an end, and you were coming to an end there, too.
- [75:30]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [75:31]
B
But you had the umbilical cord of that title, and it's tough to just be like, all right, we ran our course here because I told you this last summer. I thought they should have traded Giannis last summer, and I didn't like the Dame Stretch bringing Miles in. I understand why you did it, because you were trying basically to create a situation where Giannis retired with the Bucks, Right?
- [75:51]
A
Yeah.
- [75:52]
B
You didn't want to just throw away a year when you didn't have your pick. But it was almost an impossible situation.
- [75:59]
A
It still didn't give us a second night star to go to.
- [76:03]
B
Right.
- [76:04]
A
You know, in retrospect, when you think about it. But, you know, Bill, I don't know about the whole trade thing. This is where I struggled. I'm being honest with you. Like, yeah, what if. What if a guy wants to stay where he's at? He's won a title and he wants to play his whole career there? Like, what's wrong with that, you know?
- [76:23]
B
Well, especially when he won the title, so he doesn't have to go chase one.
- [76:26]
A
Like, I look at, like, yoke Joker. If Joker never wins again, should he leave?
- [76:32]
B
How about Curry? Curry doesn't want to go. Curry could go to Charlotte tomorrow if he wanted.
- [76:36]
A
Curry? Yeah. He would never do that. He wants to play and be a Golden State Warrior. And if Giannis did decide that and the front office decided that, okay, there's nothing wrong with that. That's the only thing that bothered me during this season and during the summer about it. It's like knowing, you know, no one has asked Giannis, like, what do you want? And that's where you hear, one side, he wants to leave. One side, he wants to stay. I think. I mean, I don't know if he's made up his mind either way yet. Well, that's okay.
- [77:13]
B
The thing that was. Right, the thing that's been going around since July in the NBA circles, which sometimes can be unreliable, sometimes can be pretty reliable, it was like, Giannis wants to leave, but he doesn't want to be the one that asked for a trade, like, that's what we've around the league. That's what's been going on since August.
- [77:32]
A
Exactly. That's what you hear.
- [77:34]
B
Right.
- [77:34]
A
But. But that's not exactly what's said every day.
- [77:38]
B
So are you talking to him and being like, yo, Giannis, let's. Do you want to get traded or not? Like, did you ask him?
- [77:44]
A
No, no, never. Cause it wasn't my place, but we talked about a lot of stuff, and I just think that he still, I think he has this thing about him that he wants to, he would love to. Like, what did he say on the trade deadline day?
- [78:03]
B
I'm a buck or whatever, and something like that.
- [78:05]
A
I think he thinks that way. And so I think leaving is very difficult for him. So you may be right. Maybe he wants to leave, but doesn't want to. I don't even know the answer to that. I just know it's not as cut and dry as people try to make it out to be. And it's not as easy of a situation as people think it is.
- [78:23]
B
Yeah, well, the problem is they traded a lot to get Drew, right? So you give up, you're giving up future picks, assets, all that stuff, and it works. You win the title, then you go all in again on the Dame trade and you give up more, basically the rest of your assets for the2020s.
- [78:38]
A
That's the problem.
- [78:39]
B
But Dame gets hurt, which is bad luck.
- [78:43]
A
That was just bad luck. And bad luck happens. Like, listen, you don't win unless you're healthy. I would fight today if you told me that KG never got healthy, never got hurt. We're winning two. But that's part of it. And the Dame thing was unfortunate. Once he went down and got hurt, Giannis gets hurt. The whole thing about Giannis has an advance in the playoffs. Well, Giannis hadn't played in the playoffs. He's been injured until last year. And then Dane goes down. So the narrative doesn't fit what actually happened is what I guess I'm saying. And I'm sitting here today, I can't tell you what's going to happen. I really can't. I'm at a point now where I just hope everybody's happy, whatever happens. And, uh, that would make me happy. You know, it, it really would.
- [79:40]
B
Well, let's have the Doc, Doc Rivers exit interview. What could you have done differently? If you could go back and change shit, what would you, did you feel like you did a good job?
- [79:49]
A
What, what were the things? I, I, I think I, I didn't think I did a great job this year. I, I really did. Now, obviously, with all the injuries, it was hard, and it's easier to second guess. Um, I thought one of the things that I've always been known for is holding everybody accountable for everything, being on time. And I thought I was very lax in that this year. And there's reasons for that that I can't go into, but it bothered me that I wasn't. Other than that, getting guys to buy into their roast. I've been very good throughout my career. I look at the teams that I've. Coach Bill, like, when you look at even some of the teams that went deep, when you look at them on paper versus the other team, how do they get to being up in a series? But that's because everybody bought into their roles, I thought. I really struggle getting each guy to see who they really are, understand that, and then play that way. Because I think that's the key to coaching, really. I think that's when you look at Joe and all the good coaches now in our league, if you can't get each guy to understand who they are and buy into their role for the good of the team, you're not going to win, period.
- [81:07]
B
So is that. That's it for coaching for you, you think? What do you think?
- [81:11]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we met about, no, I want to say, seven weeks ago, and we had. Me and ownership. We had a great meeting, and that's why we're all on the same page. And they asked me what I wanted to do. You know, one of the owners says, you know, one plan is, you know, if we do this, you know, you can hang in there for a year or two. And I literally said, oh, no, no, no, no. I was. I was. A matter of fact, I told my coaches, like, I'm done. Yeah, I love coach. Loved it. I had a lot of success at it. I had some way more ups than downs, you know, but at the end of the day, I've given 40 years, 47 years or whatever. I don't even know how old I am. Straight. Straight Bill, like, with no off time. And I just wanted a break. I want to get away the grandkids and just life in general, man. Like, yeah.
- [82:16]
B
But the thing is, I don't trust you completely because I remember being at dinner with you and Larry and you were saying how great it was not to. Not to be coaching, not getting the calls at 3 in the morning and how relaxed you were. Then all of a sudden it was like, wait, Doc's going back to coach the Bucks?
- [82:32]
A
What happened? That doesn't mean I don't want to run a team or get in the front office. I've done that. And there's some places that would be really fun to do, but right now I'm just going to try to sit back and if something comes. Not coaching I'm going to look at it, but right now, I can tell you, Bill, I think it was time. And so I'd be surprised if I coached another game. I'll put it that way.
- [83:01]
B
All right. You said that last time. I don't know if I trusted.
- [83:04]
A
I don't know if I said that last time. I said, possibly this time I'm saying it. But I'm not going to be Ali. Like, I'm not going to keep coming back. At least I hope not.
- [83:14]
B
What's. How's the golf game these days?
- [83:17]
A
Well, I haven't got much, so.
- [83:18]
B
Yeah. So you got to get that back.
- [83:20]
A
Yeah. Can I say, the golf scene in Milwaukee is amazing. Except for January and December, it's really difficult to get a good golf game going.
- [83:30]
B
Yeah. February, probably not great either.
- [83:32]
A
Not great either.
- [83:34]
B
All right. Well, you're going to pop back on every once in a while, right?
- [83:37]
A
Yeah.
- [83:37]
B
You're going to be watching basketball? I hope so.
- [83:39]
A
I love basketball.
- [83:40]
B
I know people.
- [83:41]
A
You know somebody. I was at dinner last night, and I had the game of sitting at the dinner table on my phone, and the waiter walked up to me and, like, I don't get it. He just retired. Your team's not in it. You're watching the game like you're prepping. And I said, I love the game. It's a great game. It's like, you know, I'm actually. I'm really planning on going to a couple arenas and sit in the corral and just watch the game. Not in the front. Just sit in the crowd and watch the game. I think that would be. I've never done that. Think about that. I've been in the league for 40. Whatever. I've never done that. So if you see me in the crowd just sitting there drinking a beer, I'm there because I'm having a great time, and I'm going to watch the game.
- [84:30]
B
Wow. That is.
- [84:31]
A
Yeah.
- [84:31]
B
You went from playing to coaching to announcing. To coaching to announcing. Yeah. I guess. You never had a free year.
- [84:41]
A
I've done it in two games. Austin's. When Austin came to play the Lakers and I was coaching the Clippers, I sat in, like, the fourth row and I had a ball. And then we were on the road once when I was with Philly and Austin was with Minnesota, and Minnesota was in early, in New Orleans, and I called New Orleans and said, I want to see, like, in the seventh row. I do not. Because they always want to put you on the floor somewhere. Said, I don't want to sit on the floor. And then they were like, well, we're worried about security. I said, I'm good. And me and Sam Cassell sat in like the sixth or seventh row. We played New Orleans the next night and it was a ball. The fans were talking crap. I remember at the very end, I turned around and said, hey, see you tomorrow. We're going to get your ass. Guys are laughing like we had a ball. It was. It was so fun. So it was cool.
- [85:30]
B
All right. Well, it's good to have you back. Congrats on the hall of fame, by the way.
- [85:33]
A
Oh, thanks.
- [85:34]
B
That was pretty cool.
- [85:35]
A
That was cool. That was awesome. The call's awesome. I think. I know I'm gonna ask. I can't tell you yet to you could figure out one.
- [85:44]
B
I'd probably have a guess.
- [85:46]
A
Yeah, but. But it's gonna be. It's gonna be a really cool thing. And when you make it as a coach, you make it because all the people who work with you and play for you, you know, you really do. So it was more of a thankful thing for me.
- [86:02]
B
Awesome. Well, it was great to see you. I'll see you in the west coast, Los Angeles, very soon. Great to have you back. Missed having you on. Good to see you. Thank you.
- [86:10]
A
Good seeing you.
- [86:12]
B
And now it's time for a new segment embracing the era. It is brought to you by new era. The official cap of the NBA. And they make awesome caps. You should check them out. Take a trip back through time with some of the most iconic court defining moments with the new era. NBA hardwood classics collection. Let's be honest, little hard to top the legendary 80s logo. Some people are partial to the 90s when we started to get a little wacky. But the 80s, oh yeah. And speaking of the 80s, that was the era that made me an NBA fan. I was an NBA fan in the 70s. I was going to the games with my dad. 1974. But the 80s, when the league became the NBA Magic and Birds started riding to glory. Michael Jordan showed up. We had a Celtics Lakers rivalry. We had those NBA entertainment ads that you can go find on YouTube. The NBA is fantastic. Slam dunk contests, three point contest, all that stuff started. And now you can go back in time with the new era. NBA hardwood classics collection available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables like the 940A frame and 970. And some great hardwood classics apparel as well, including this awesome green celtics sweatshirt that they sent me that my daughter stole from me. Within a week. And now I have to get it back when she's done with college this year. Visit neweracap.com to shop now. Use one time code ringer for 20% off your first order. Check it out. AI is moving fast across the enterprise, but without visibility, it's just chaos. Different tools, different models, different teams using AI in completely different ways. ServiceNow turns that chaos into control. With the AI control tower, you see all your AI across the business, even in one place, what it's doing, what it's done and what it's about to do. So you stay in control. To put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com all right, my friend Nick Khan is here. Mid level boxing promoter also works for wwe. When you become an upper class boxing
- [88:27]
C
promoter, mid level boxing executive, boxing executive Dana White is the promoter. As you know, it's a mid level boxing executive boxing executive who also has bull riding reporting into me.
- [88:37]
B
Bull. So don't think about the bull rider
- [88:39]
C
now that you're a big deal. Don't think you know mid level wrestling. Oh, he's just mid level boxing.
- [88:44]
B
Also that we haven't had you in the studio yet. You do one interview a year, although you did two this year before WrestleMania. Because you also were in the Las Vegas Review Journal.
- [88:53]
C
Yes, sir.
- [88:54]
B
My father press. Your father?
- [88:55]
C
My, my parents still lived in Las Vegas. My mother passed in 2019. All is good. So he still lives there, still subscribes to the hard copy of the Review Journal. And he was the one person when the article came out who said, hey, there's a big article.
- [89:11]
B
Yeah, it's like wow.
- [89:12]
C
On you in the Review Journal today.
- [89:14]
B
Yeah, couldn't believe it. My dad does the same with the Globe. Hey, you were in the media notes in the Globe today. Do you want me to save it? Like. No, I'm good.
- [89:21]
C
Yeah, save and put in that plastic
- [89:23]
B
sheet, you know, put it in your scrapbook.
- [89:25]
C
By the way, just in terms of the studio, last year, your microphone, it was like circumference. I know, 42 inches.
- [89:33]
B
Now we're taking it off. We've had a very good last year. Our stuff looks good. We look like discount TV shows. Now it's on Netflix from 4K HD.
- [89:42]
C
That's it.
- [89:42]
B
It's all good.
- [89:43]
C
I've watched the Life seems to be pretty good since.
- [89:45]
B
All right, so you're in the bad back club now. So welcome aboard on that the old man club.
- [89:50]
C
The bad bad club. Ridiculous.
- [89:51]
B
Yeah.
- [89:52]
C
So I'm going to try to sit with.
- [89:53]
B
I told you my theory though, it's. It's 95% stress. There could be like a traumatic, like you get in a car accident or, you know, you're on a roller coaster and something like some sort of. But for the most part, it's usually sitting habits and stress, which is what I tell everybody.
- [90:09]
C
But here's the only thing, though. So you and I have known each other for almost 20 years now.
- [90:13]
B
Yeah.
- [90:13]
C
I've never seen you externally stressed. Now, I don't know when kids are in a down, you know, family and this, but you've never called me with some version of I'm so stressed. I just think it's part of your life. I think whatever stress, you get used to stress.
- [90:29]
B
But you have way more stress now because you're in charge of bull riding and in WWE and you're a mid level boxing executive. So this is the most stress you've had.
- [90:36]
C
Listen, this is. It's an easy life compared to jobs you and I may have had growing up.
- [90:40]
B
That's true. All right.
- [90:42]
C
I would tell you my decision. So I went to public school in Las Vegas.
- [90:45]
B
Yeah.
- [90:46]
C
Bonanza High School. You're like, I've never heard of that school.
- [90:48]
B
It's just a public high school called Bonanza High School.
- [90:50]
C
Yeah. All the old Vegas high schools were all western themed. Rancho High School, Chaparral High School, Western High School, Bonanza High School. So that's just El Dorado High School. So that's what they all were. I was like, should I go to college? Should I not go to college? There was. You remember when you and I were younger, you'd look for a job in the classified ads.
- [91:10]
B
Yeah.
- [91:11]
C
It said, you know, now hiring. In 1992, I believe the minimum wage was $4.25 in Las Vegas, $15 an hour. Come work at the Marina Hotel while we transform it into the mgm. Ooh, it's no problem. I went down there. It was kind of a construction job. They said, hey, you signed up? Okay. I said, what I need to do? They're like, you see that huge pile of rocks? They said, yeah. It's like, you and the other guys need to move that pile like a mile away. And I was like, nah. Left and enrolled at unlv. I was like, I was a busboy in high school and all this stuff that was all fine, the movie and the Rock Sing. I'm like, this is too much for me.
- [91:54]
B
I have a similar experience. My buddy Jim Grady and I, we went and worked at some tent company the beginning of the summer.
- [92:01]
C
One summer.
- [92:01]
B
And I Was one day, and out I was driving home, I'm like, I am not going back. That's a one and done. I'm not doing that again.
- [92:09]
C
I had a job in high school as a busboy at the old Gold Coast Hotel in Las Vegas, which is an off strip, you know, casino. First day. It's like, at that time when we were younger, the managers were always kind of assholes. Yeah, right, kid, you know, you're two minutes late. It's going to be a big reflection on, you know, your future. And I was like, all right, I'll just quit.
- [92:30]
B
How's that sound?
- [92:31]
C
How does that sound? Just quit. You can have someone else bust your table. So you have many stories.
- [92:35]
B
I don't remember if we talked about this on the pod, but I don't even remember how you became an agent. Did you do the mailroom thing or did you back into it another way?
- [92:44]
C
I was a lawyer for six or seven years.
- [92:46]
B
That's what it was.
- [92:46]
C
That Freddie Roach, Manny Pacquiao story.
- [92:48]
B
I remember now I just have amnesia.
- [92:50]
C
Yeah, because of Freddy and Manny started going to a lot of the boxing matches, met Jim Lampley, met Max Kellerman, who's in business with you now, and started representing those. Joe Tessitore, met those boxing announcers, started representing them as a lawyer, and then went to become an agent in the sports media space.
- [93:11]
B
Those are usually the best agents that didn't start because they wanted to be an agent.
- [93:16]
C
Yeah, I have this thing also. And by the way, it would apply to Ben and to my children, Sonny and Natalie. When I was an agent, if there were young people, assistants who I liked, I'd all say, where are you from? Anyone who answered, I'm from la. I'd be like, yeah, but where? And it was Reseda, Sherman Oaks, you know, Huntington. It was never Hancock Park, Brentwood. It's just different. Like, you know, perhaps your son goes to run a hedge fund or run a team or something like that, but most of the agents come from a little more working class.
- [93:49]
B
Yeah, it's true.
- [93:50]
C
The good agents.
- [93:51]
B
At least I have a bunch of. Normally, I don't have the iPad with questions, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.
- [93:55]
C
I see you have your Ollie sweatshirt.
- [93:58]
B
I wore the Ali sweatshirt for you to get the boxing.
- [94:01]
C
All the gotasha in boxing books.
- [94:02]
B
We'll start with the wrestling. I want to move into the whole armada that you guys have created with the combat sports, basically, but the wrestling. WrestleMania 42.
- [94:11]
C
Yes, sir.
- [94:13]
B
Just seeing the 42 makes me feel super old. It's just kind of like, fuck, 42. Like, I remember every aspect of that week leading up to the first one, and now we're at 42. It's kind of jarring, dude.
- [94:25]
A
It's also.
- [94:26]
B
I like it.
- [94:27]
C
I Compare it to WrestleMania 1, which I watched from the LA Sports arena on closed circuit. We were in Los Angeles that weekend. But I also compare it like people talk WrestleMania 18 and I'm like, wait a second, that's now 24 years ago.
- [94:44]
B
Right, Right.
- [94:45]
C
It's those things when you read.
- [94:46]
B
Which one was 1818.
- [94:48]
C
Was that Hulk and Hogan Rock? Yeah, right. But it's those things you read. And like, now, if you look at 2002, that would be like 1985, talking about 1962 or whatever the math was. And that makes me feel like, man, the years are flying by.
- [95:05]
B
The thing I really hate right now, Instagram just knows how to bring my confidence down. They do these things now where they show somebody. I don't know if it's AI or how they do it, but it's like an actress or an actor from the 90s, and it's them now. And then it's like, here's you might remember me. And then it goes backwards, a montage of when they were young. And then it goes back to them looking like us now. And I always get really depressed.
- [95:29]
C
I just got something on Instagram last night. It was Andrew McCarthy.
- [95:33]
B
It was like one of those where it went backwards and forwards. Yeah, I don't like those. I don't want those anymore.
- [95:38]
C
Correct.
- [95:39]
B
All right. Why Vegas for the second year in a row for WrestleMania.
- [95:42]
C
So, number one, we had a great experience last year. The Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority, led by a guy named Steve Hill, who's a terrific executive, I think I first noticed when the super bowl was there a couple of years ago. It was probably the most seamless Super Bowl I had seen. I think a lot of people were surprised by that. Having lived there for most of my pre adult life, it didn't surprise me at all because there's no city that can handle that quantity of people better than Las Vegas can. So we set up WrestleMania last year. It was quite successful. We decided to go back to back. You know, fingers crossed. Let's see.
- [96:19]
B
It's kind of built for it. It's built for the everyday people. It's built for, like, what you guys have to deal with. Flying executives and celebrities in and out.
- [96:27]
C
It's easy.
- [96:28]
B
Million hotels. There's other stuff going. You can turn it into a Get in and out same day or turn it into a weekend.
- [96:34]
C
And look, even if you look at the media business, the current media business, now the easy questions to answer. Where's Disney primarily located? Yeah. Where's Netflix primarily located? Where's the ringer primarily located? La. You know, I think it was New York. And I get. For news. It's still considered New York. Where's David?
- [96:54]
B
York's tough because of the giant stadium piece.
- [96:56]
C
It's tough.
- [96:57]
B
Yeah. It's hard to get to.
- [96:58]
C
It's tough.
- [96:58]
B
I think LA works now with SoFi, I think would be okay. I'm trying to think of some other ones.
- [97:04]
C
Yeah, we did SoFi in 2022. It worked out phenomenally well.
- [97:07]
B
Yeah.
- [97:07]
C
I think there's three things the west coast undisputably destroys. The east coast.
- [97:12]
B
And for WrestleMania.
- [97:14]
C
No. And just in general.
- [97:15]
B
Okay.
- [97:15]
C
One of them semi related to WrestleMania, the start time and end time of sporting events destroys the East Coast. Mexican food and sushi.
- [97:26]
B
Some food. Sushi. Trying to think what else. I would. I would throw weather in.
- [97:29]
C
Weather. Forgiven. Yes.
- [97:31]
B
The sun.
- [97:32]
C
The sun. 75% of the year.
- [97:34]
B
My daughter FaceTimed me today. She was walking around wearing a T shirt and shorts in Boston. It was like five degrees. No, it was 78. It's like, dad. Yeah, 78. I'm like, cool. Welcome to the last couple days of my life here.
- [97:47]
C
How about 78?
- [97:47]
A
Here?
- [97:48]
C
You put the air conditioning on. Hot.
- [97:50]
B
So what are the big challenges now? Like, you have this WrestleMania coming up where you're coming off. 24 was awesome, right? That's like a couple years after Covid. Bring Cody Rhodes in just one of those great signature WWE years. And then last year was the senior year, which I thought were great. Thank you. Now you're in 26. It's really tough in wrestling because everybody either wants to say you're red hot again or you're not as hot as you were last year. And it's just one of those two extremes. And it feels like the business right now is in the. Yeah, it's not like it was last year. And that's kind of what happens. The ratings are a little bit down, the attendance is a little bit down, and then people just latch on. So how much of it is real and how much of it are you just not concerned about?
- [98:36]
C
So here's the good thing. A year ago. So right after WrestleMania last year, triple H, who, you know, and I got together and we said, okay, let's take a look at the future. Yeah, let's look at our Top male superstars. Cena was obviously his retirement year. We have. And you tell me if you categorize these as our top men. Roman, in some order. Roman.
- [98:57]
B
Roman, definitely.
- [98:58]
C
Cody, Punk, Seth, Brock. So if you look at their ages, it's.
- [99:05]
B
I would throw McIntyre in there too.
- [99:08]
C
Yeah, put Drew in there. Yeah. And he adds to the narrative. Okay, they're all 40 years or older.
- [99:13]
B
Right.
- [99:14]
C
So we said, all right, we gotta make sure we're preparing for the future here. We went down to our performance center to see Shawn Michaels and Matt Bloom who run that on a day to day basis and run NXT with us. And we said, okay, let's take a look at the talent here. How come dx, for example, when it was first starting to pop, Triple H, I think was like 26.
- [99:36]
B
Yeah.
- [99:36]
C
Why is it taking longer? And Sean said there's one thing we could really use the company's help on. We need to be able to tour nxt because doing it from the studio every week, you don't get the authentic fan response that young wrestlers need to know if their work is working or not. Yeah, you know, it's a lot of.
- [99:57]
B
This different region is going to respond differently.
- [99:59]
C
Correct. It's different. It's sort of like Randy Orton shows up in St. Louis. He's getting all the cheers in the world. He shows up in a different city. He doesn't. You need to know how to react to that. He said, we need to be able to take NXT on the road. Great, no problem. Give us a week. We came back to Sean, let's take it on the road starting in a month or whatever it was. And then you saw the quick acceleration of Obafemi, Trick Williams, Javon Evans, soon to be others coming up from nxt. And one of the matches I keep hearing people talk about is going to be the opening match Sunday, which is Obafemi. Brock Lesnar.
- [100:37]
B
Right, right. So obafemi, that's Man ESPN, right?
- [100:40]
C
That's Man ESPN, yeah. So first night of ESPN. Pardon me. First night of WrestleMania. The first hour is on ESPN2 and ESPN Unlimited. Second night, Sunday night, first hour is on ESPN and ESPN Unlimited. So Sunday night we open with Oba versus Brock. It's a match when Paul and I sat together with a number of other folks, said, this seems to have a bit of a hot hand here.
- [101:03]
B
Let's start big, new versus old. A lot of good stuff, a lot of good angles.
- [101:08]
C
And you know, I think Brock's work has been phenomenal. Oba's work has been phenomenal. If you caught the go home show of Raw by any chance, oba's promo with Paul Heyman was phenomenal. So fingers crossed, right? But we think that's all working. So if we're a publicly traded company, part of a publicly traded company, the results are the results. Fingers crossed.
- [101:29]
B
But it's interesting what you're hitting because that's always been. Whenever there's been a wrestling renaissance, it's usually coming from a young group of people that maybe you weren't expecting. We didn't think we're ready yet. You know, when it happened with Triple H and Those guys in 96, 97, it happened because WCW was building like an all star team of older guys. And by necessity WWE had to like pass the torch to young people and hope they were ready. Right.
- [101:56]
C
Think about this. You remember when they brought WWE, read Sergeant Slaughter back in the late 90s, who was sort of like a GM type personality. And Triple H was really going from Hunter Hearst Helmsley to Triple H. It was with Sean early dx and they put on the sort of like construction mask, if you will, that had the windshield wipers because they would say Sarge would spit in their face when he would talk. And all of a sudden you saw DX pop. And then you saw Stunning Steve Austin come over as the ringmaster. And I remember seeing him and being like, is that Stunning Steve Austin now he's the ringmaster? Like, I don't know if this is going to work. And then boom. It Jake Roberts, king of the ring,
- [102:36]
B
the shield 15 years later was another one. Right. Whatever. The. 15, 16 years later.
- [102:41]
C
Think about how quick those guys, they had it. They put in the.
- [102:44]
B
Had it. You knew it immediately.
- [102:45]
C
Immediately, immediately. You and I.
- [102:48]
B
Well, that's a weird.
- [102:49]
C
Yeah, we, we talked about it early.
- [102:51]
B
Yeah. But that's one of those things where most of the times you kind of have to have it right away. I think very rarely are there the late bloomer guys, you know, like, wow. Well, by the way, this guy, this is happening now. Like La Knight was kind of like that. He was older when it happened for him. But the most part you kind of know early. It's like basketball. Yeah.
- [103:10]
C
I think even in broadcasting, even when. Didn't you do a commercial early on? Was it with Kevin? Kevin, Kenny Main, poolside?
- [103:19]
B
Oh, I did Main street with Kenny
- [103:21]
C
Main, but it was like, oh, who is that? Yeah, like you were saying things that other people weren't saying.
- [103:27]
B
Yeah.
- [103:28]
C
And it was like, well, who's that? And then you'd start reading your columns and for me, it was like, he's referencing the Karate Kid, like in a sports column. Like, I haven't seen that before. By the way, Karate Kid, as you know, you're the one who first touted it. It's one of the handful of perfect movies.
- [103:42]
B
It doesn't mean I like to think so.
- [103:44]
C
Tell me a flaw in that movie.
- [103:46]
B
I think it doesn't get enough credit for being a great 80s movie.
- [103:49]
C
Avildson doesn't get enough credit.
- [103:50]
B
Great sports movie and a great 80s movie. And really well done.
- [103:53]
C
Avildson doesn't get enough credit, maybe because Rocky is not perceived the way that it should be perceived.
- [103:59]
B
Oh, no, it's because of Karate Kid 3. I think that's what killed that can do it. He should have just taken his name off it and pretended he was like John X. John Jacobs.
- [104:08]
C
Yeah. The guy who did. What was the. Eddie Furlong, American History. X. Remember he changed the director? Changed his name or took his name off?
- [104:17]
B
Oh, yeah, he took his name off. Yeah. Because Ed Norton was like, in the director's thing.
- [104:21]
C
Avildon should have done that with. With three, you're big.
- [104:24]
B
You're a big Rocky guy.
- [104:25]
C
Love.
- [104:27]
B
What's your. What are your 1, 2, 3, 4 rankings?
- [104:31]
C
So second half of two is the best Rocky of all time. But the first half of two is
- [104:38]
B
a little first half, first three fourths.
- [104:40]
C
I think. I think on rewatchables, one of your guys said, the moment she says win.
- [104:46]
B
Yeah, that's it until the end.
- [104:48]
C
It's.
- [104:48]
B
It's the best 30 minutes probably of all time.
- [104:51]
C
Phenomenal. Every scene, the music, the score in that. We know how great the score is, but somehow it's not remembered the way it feels.
- [104:57]
B
We talked about that on the pod, about people cheering in the theater, which was the only time I've ever really seen that for real. Like, people cheering like it was they were at WrestleMania or something.
- [105:07]
C
How about also. And you have a number of phenomenal books here that then later became movies. How about going to the Movies? And it was sold out, right? You'd go and you'd be like, okay, we want to go see Rocky 2 sold out, but when's the next show? 11:30pm okay, well, what else are you showing here? And you'd go see an alternative movie.
- [105:28]
B
It was tough. That's starting to come back with the imax. But you can still see, like, LA is probably an anomaly because they have so many theaters here. But you see the. If the IMAX is sold out, you kind of have to. Well, do the laser, I guess.
- [105:42]
C
Totally.
- [105:43]
B
But so it's a little. But I do feel like the movies are a little bit back. Not like it was when we were
- [105:48]
C
growing up, but at least, you know, before you go, when we would go and you'd walk up and it's like, so and so Rocky II sold out, you'd be like, oh, my God.
- [105:55]
B
At least we can buy tickets.
- [105:56]
C
Yeah, at least you can buy, you know, in advance and can buy.
- [105:59]
B
You just did the Nick Khan thing where you. You moved away from my original question.
- [106:03]
C
What do you mean? We talked to Oba Brock. Something that happened.
- [106:07]
B
So the ebb and flow of the business, it's a little bit of a down right now, but it's not too far down, but it's not as high as it was two years ago. So you think the key is build around the young guys. One of the criticisms is always that you don't do as many house shows now. Guys aren't on the road as much. There's real reasons for that. It's because the way the business used to be, these guys would get run into the ground in five years.
- [106:32]
C
Think about every wrestling documentary you've ever seen.
- [106:36]
B
Yeah.
- [106:37]
C
Usually about wrestlers in the 80s. Started off with, I was on the road 300 days a year.
- [106:41]
B
Right, Right.
- [106:42]
C
It's no way. And then you saw the results of that. Forget family life, but you saw what people would do to make sure that their bodies could perform at that level.
- [106:51]
B
Yeah. So, you know, that's like me right now. What are the things I have to do to get, you know, doing four podcasts a week?
- [106:57]
C
I really have to also listen.
- [106:59]
B
People don't see what I'm doing.
- [107:00]
C
I understand. It's very hard. And by the way, because of our age, which we started off with, I'm sure you have a stretch man now.
- [107:06]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [107:07]
C
Which is always an awkward, like, connection to me. Some man stretching my leg. I don't know.
- [107:13]
B
I don't have my own personal man stretcher, but I do find myself doing things I never thought I would have done in the past, like watching tv, but making sure I'm sitting on the floor, just stretching out my tendons, just doing this.
- [107:27]
C
I talked to a mutual friend of ours, Pete Bavacqua, who's the AV at Notre Dame, and just a random conversation a couple months ago, he's like, hey, I just worked out. He was on the road. And I like. I'm like, how long did you stretch? And he's like, dude, I was the only guy in the gym. It was all Young people, I'm stretching out, you know, this and that. I'm like, they're all looking at me saying, there's the old man.
- [107:47]
B
You know, I haven't talked to him in a while. He was the greatest guy as a high school kid. Like, we all, like, he was younger than us, but we all loved him. And I totally wasn't surprised that he's super successful now.
- [107:59]
C
Love that guy, honestly.
- [108:01]
B
He had great people skills when he was like 15.
- [108:02]
C
Totally, yeah. Love that guy. Honest broker and, you know, in his dream job, which I always applaud people for. Do you think, by the way, how rich. How rich are you now? We haven't talked yet.
- [108:13]
B
I. I'm not the one that sells stock all the time. Like the, like, I always see that. Listen, I've sold more stuff.
- [108:19]
C
How did we start this? A mid level wrestling boxing executive with bull riding reporting.
- [108:24]
B
Insert. I forget. Yeah, we. I saved the bull riding combo for the end.
- [108:29]
C
Listen, I don't know if people are going to. Part of the reason I came here today is to try to take out a personal loan from you. Not that much money for you. 30, $40 million.
- [108:36]
B
That's fine.
- [108:37]
C
It's no big deal. Just I was never asked to invest in the company, buy some stock.
- [108:43]
B
I actually, I was asked to invest. I don't know. When did, when did Ari do the whole UFC thing?
- [108:49]
C
It was like 2016. Why didn't you do that? You didn't believe?
- [108:53]
B
I didn't. I actually, I could have because it was. Baby Doll was in there and they asked Jimmy. So I actually looked at it, I really studied it, and it's hilarious. Why I didn't invest because I should have. And I really believed in ufc and I thought it was going to keep getting bigger. And the reason I didn't invest was I came to the conclusion it was too dependent on meteorites deals. And if they didn't get the media rights deals the way they thought they were gonna get the media rights deals, it wouldn't have been worth anything. So I was like, I'm not doing it, I'm out.
- [109:25]
C
How'd that work out for you?
- [109:27]
B
Terribly. It was a complete misread. It was actually like the conclusion I landed on was the exact opposite of what happened. They were completely right. Media right deals were exploding. All of these great things were about to happen. And I was like, I don't know, I don't see it. I don't see the case.
- [109:42]
C
By the way, I passed on investing in Sweet Greens. I'm like, that's never going to work. There's plenty of that on this end. On the UFC side, if you think about it, it's part of the opportunity we see in boxing. Let's go back to 1984 for a moment. And you would know it better than I would, but this is off the top of my head. If I said to you, who are the most famous athletes in the country? Okay, so Jordan, still not Pro Bird, Magic, Joe Montana, let's say. And then a bunch of individual sports stars. Yeah, McEnroe, Nicholas, Mary Lou Retton, Carl Lewis, Sugar Ray Leonard. Boom Boom Mancini. Evel Knievel is Chris Everett. Chris Everett, right. And then you fast Forward a mere 10 years to 1994, and the leagues have become the leagues. The NBA is going crazy. The NFL is going crazy. The individual sports, outside of WWE and subsequently outside of ufc, they all stayed the same. So the question we know this, that people would always ask, is, who's the heavyweight champion of the world? You would know it. I would know it. Now, in Usyk, most people don't know it. Who's the fastest man on the planet? The sanctioning bodies are ridiculous. The belts messed it up. I knew Marvin Hagler as the middleweight champion. I didn't know him as the WBC interim middleweight champion in recess. It's nonsense.
- [111:03]
B
It's absurd. Max and I, when Max was here, we were talking about when there was that crazy super middleweight run, when we had all those super middleweights at the same time. And I forget, I think it was maybe Showtime, had them all fighting each other and that was one of the last times I felt like, oh, there's real structure to this.
- [111:19]
C
The Super 6, it was called in
- [111:21]
B
the best, which seems like what everybody's trying to do now with boxing. And I think from a boxing standpoint, I have more choices month to month than I think I've ever had before.
- [111:32]
C
Look, it's turkey. Al Sheikh is certainly trying to do that and has certainly done it and put his money up and made fights that no one was going to make. So if you look at what the promoters were doing on their own, the boxing promoters, it was, well, let's just have our guy fight another one of our guys. And then finally you'd get Errol Spence, who I give all the credit in the world to, didn't have to give Terence Crawford the opportunity. This was pre Turkey, being involved in boxing, knew that the fans wanted it, gave him the opportunity.
- [112:05]
B
But that's why we don't get that correct, because people point to errol Spence. And like, that's the worst case scenario. You get absolutely obliterated by Bud.
- [112:15]
C
I understand.
- [112:16]
B
And then you don't have the same drawing power anymore.
- [112:18]
C
It's no different. And this is not directed at you. And I know it's a young Patriots team, but the Patriots deserve to be in the Super Bowl. They got beat handily.
- [112:26]
B
So what? I'm at the point with it now where I wish we had lost in the AFC title game and never made the Super Bowl.
- [112:33]
C
You're hurt by the Super Bowl?
- [112:34]
B
Well, I just think it's setting off a chain of events now. My coach is in a scandal. I have that going. I just feel like it's going to be the year from hell. I'm already resigned to it.
- [112:44]
C
Not jinxing anything. You have the right qb.
- [112:46]
B
Have the right qb. Hopefully he's healthy.
- [112:48]
A
Yep.
- [112:48]
C
Not jinxing.
- [112:49]
B
The boxing thing, though. I feel like there's more awareness. But the thing is, I might only feel that way because I have a lot of people in my life who like boxing. So we're like. The Zone had a fight. It had a card in England last week. Last Saturday. It was early. The Tyson Fury.
- [113:08]
C
Netflix. Yep.
- [113:09]
B
Or Netflix. Sorry. Netflix.
- [113:13]
C
Sorry.
- [113:13]
B
Whoops.
- [113:14]
C
Employer of the ringer. Yes.
- [113:16]
B
I'm gonna leave that in. Sorry. Yeah, I'm not gonna edit that out. It's more of my old age. Netflix had it.
- [113:22]
C
Gabe Spitzer. Bella. I don't know if you've heard of these people.
- [113:24]
B
The Zone was two weeks before Netflix was last week and it was starting like 11 o' clock PT. But it just feels like every week there's something.
- [113:34]
C
Look, think about things that Turkey's getting right. And separately, Netflix is getting right. One of them is a selection of dates. So it used to be, if you remember, like, Bo Holyfield, the fan man fight was in November.
- [113:49]
B
Yeah.
- [113:49]
C
Remember when the famine came in and they had to put, like, blankets and everything around Bo and Holyfield to stay warm? Outdoor venue, Caesar's Palace, Vegas in November. Very cold at night, you know, for west coast, certainly very cold. Like, why are you going so heavy during college football season? It's insane. And by the way, it's not just college football season. And that was, you know, November. But if you just look at the fall. Okay, what are the four most popular sports in the United States if you bifurcate? Pro and.
- [114:17]
B
Yeah, college.
- [114:18]
C
Okay. NFL, college football, NBA, College hoops, mlb. Having a bit of a renaissance right now, too. Strong World Series. So you're going with postseason baseball with a stacked Dodgers team, which you know, when you get the big teams in it, it tends to matter, as you know. Yeah.
- [114:33]
B
October is a no fly zone now for this stuff.
- [114:36]
C
Why would you go. So boxing did it consistently.
- [114:38]
B
You talked about this the last time you were on and I thought it was really smart. How tko just in general, like ufc, just like, hey, let's rethink how we're approaching the calendar. Why is WrestleMania this weekend? Why can't UFC take advantage of this two week window here in August where nothing's happening? Why can't we put a boxing card here? I feel like we're like, it feels like the sports card, my dance card, weekend to weekend is more filled than it used to be. Instead of just the weekends where there's too much stuff and you're like, all right, I guess I'm going to watch this instead of this.
- [115:13]
C
Totally. So a couple of examples of this.
- [115:15]
B
Yeah.
- [115:15]
C
When Dana, ari Shapiro and company made Mayweather McGregor. Yeah. Triple G Canelo had already been announced for middle of September of that year for Mexican Independence Day weekend.
- [115:31]
B
Yeah.
- [115:32]
C
And I remember speaking to Dana. I. I was not working with them at the time, speaking to him and he said, we going to go the last week of August pre Labor Day. And I said, hot in Vegas. He said, yeah. And he said, you know the Vegas routine, most people are going to come in, they're going to go to the pool, they're going to.
- [115:49]
B
They're inside or at the pool or in air conditioning.
- [115:51]
C
You got it.
- [115:52]
B
Yeah.
- [115:52]
C
And that fight, I think is the highest grossing pay per view of all time, or second highest grossing gate after, you know, Mayweather, Pacquiao. And I was like, that's brilliant. When we all started together at wwe, which is now almost six years ago, coming out of COVID we looked at our premium live events calendar and we had one. I don't remember the month. You would probably remember the month. This is in 2021. And I asked the founder of the company, I said, why are we going up against Tom Brady's return with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers at New England? And he was like, I don't know, like, what should we do? I said, spoof to Saturday night.
- [116:31]
B
Right, right.
- [116:32]
C
I'd rather go up against Alabama, LSU in its prime than Tom Brady's return to New England with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Great. Do it. It was very easy to sort of make those changes, which we did. So Even on, on WrestleMania, April 18th and 19th, two years ago in Philly, it was Final Four weekend. That was the last deal we inherited. Why would you look at the Final Four this year, you had three, in my opinion, hot teams. Illinois too, so maybe four hot teams. But you had Hurley, you had. Who beat them?
- [117:07]
B
Michigan. Arizona.
- [117:08]
C
Michigan, Arizona, Hurley and Illinois.
- [117:10]
B
Right.
- [117:11]
C
Why would we want to go up against that?
- [117:13]
B
I've noticed a great weekend that everybody didn't realize was a great weekend when they went to two weeks between afc, NFC title games and the Super Bowl.
- [117:23]
C
So much better.
- [117:24]
B
There was that weekend between the two that was basically a wide open weekend. You're just going against, like basketball now,
- [117:29]
C
called Royal Rumble weekend.
- [117:31]
B
Exactly.
- [117:31]
C
Yes.
- [117:32]
B
But Royal Rumble was not always that weekend.
- [117:34]
C
No, Royal Rumble would go the Sunday of the two conference championships, and then we moved it to the Saturday because it's a wide open night. And then you quickly realize, well, you can't book an NFL stadium because every NFL team's hopeful that their team is in one of those two games. So I don't know. Pro bowl at the time was on at like noon Eastern or Sunday. It was a daytime event, so 90% of the country's still cold. People are used to watching sports on Sunday. People are used to.
- [118:07]
B
It's like the first dead weekend since late August.
- [118:10]
C
Correct.
- [118:10]
B
Yeah.
- [118:11]
C
So why not do it then? Which we did. And ratings skyrocketed.
- [118:15]
B
And then summer. Some of the opportunities are you gotta look and make sure there's not a men's or women's World cup to make sure there's not an Olympics. And if there is, you gotta avoid it. You don't want to go against the Olympics for any reason.
- [118:29]
C
So think about this first weekend of May. Always was a big boxing weekend. Oscar de La Hoya would fight on Cinco de Mayo weekend.
- [118:37]
B
Right. That's a Mexican Latino guy.
- [118:39]
C
It's kind of a made up, like beer holiday, if you will. But it's a good time to go to Vegas. Weather's perfect, you know, this and that. But it's also Kentucky Derby Saturday. So you have men and women sitting around a television, especially with the proliferation.
- [118:50]
B
You also have basketball and hockey.
- [118:53]
C
Do you also have the playoffs?
- [118:54]
B
Like usually. Huge game sixes, game sevens for both sports.
- [118:57]
C
Huge. Kentucky Derby's a three minute sporting event.
- [119:01]
B
Right.
- [119:02]
C
So if men and women are together. Okay, what do we want to do? We want to watch the NBA game. If our team's not in it, there's a. Oh, there's a big fight on tv. Great, let's order it. But why not do that with the Preakness, which even if you read, I'm sure you did the news yesterday that, hey, the Preakness may move a week later. So instead of being two weeks after the Kentucky Derby. Three weeks. Yeah. Why would you not have done that years ago? Give the horses more of a chance to recover, create more of an opportunity. One horse wins both races, then you have a Triple Crown contender at the Belmont. Like, why would you not have done that? Horse racing, much like boxing, fragmented. This track owner does this, this one doesn't like that. There's no unification to it. So with Zufa boxing, if we can replicate the version of a league, if you will, NBA, NHL, NFL, ufc, wwe, where the best fight the best, there's consistency of programming and, you know, no one's going to duck anyone. Maybe we have a chance.
- [119:58]
B
You stole Connor, Ben.
- [120:00]
C
What do you mean by stole?
- [120:01]
B
Well, you grabbed them, brought them to your team.
- [120:06]
C
It had to be done. One fight. Deal. I thought he looked good on Saturday night. There was some unexpected opponent. Yeah, progress brought it, but that's part of the thing.
- [120:14]
B
What did he have, like, four injuries?
- [120:16]
C
Yeah, it's going to take him out.
- [120:17]
B
He basically admitted after, like, yeah, I was really hurt, but I felt like I had to fight anyway.
- [120:21]
C
He didn't. He didn't have to fight. But, yes, he's game. And look, it's part of the Zufa legislation with the Muhammad Ali Enhancement act, is that insurance for fighters will kick in when training camp starts. Because as it's set up now, fighters only have fight night insurance. So if they get hurt seven weeks before, a lot of them will just go through camp hurt because they can't necessarily afford to go to the doctor and pay for it and all of that to get training insurance, small things like that, the minimums that someone can make per round to institute those so people aren't fighting. Hey, here's 40 bucks. It's kind of like Rocky Balboa. Spider Rico.
- [120:59]
B
Yeah.
- [120:59]
C
Okay. It's $48. Spiders.
- [121:01]
B
Spider took your lot.
- [121:02]
C
Took some liberties.
- [121:03]
B
Yeah.
- [121:04]
C
And then talk shit to him after.
- [121:05]
B
Yeah.
- [121:06]
C
Didn't say Spider Rico.
- [121:08]
B
So you're happy with how the boxing's going?
- [121:10]
C
I'm happy with how we started it. You know, give it a couple years, let's see where we are. But I.
- [121:14]
B
You guys are feuding with Eddie Hearn already?
- [121:16]
C
We're not. We're not feuding with anybody.
- [121:18]
B
You were lobbing some grenades at him. He's lobbing grenades back. This is great.
- [121:22]
C
Listen, I don't know what the guy's talking about.
- [121:24]
B
I moved down from Tony Khan to Eddie Hearn. I like it, by the way.
- [121:26]
C
There's Similarities between the two.
- [121:28]
B
What are the similarities?
- [121:30]
C
They both work for their dads,
- [121:34]
A
which,
- [121:35]
C
by the way, I'm going to give Ben Simmons some strong advice here. Whatever he decides to do with his life, do not try to be a podcaster.
- [121:44]
B
Ben Simmons does not want to work for me. That will not happen. Why? He wants to forge his own way. Of course.
- [121:50]
C
That's the way it should be. You do everything you can as his father to set him up in the world. By the way, he should use your relationships. He should do whatever he can. It's a bit of a dated reference. Frank Sinatra Jr. Should have done anything other than be a crew nerd.
- [122:05]
B
That was the worst case scenario.
- [122:06]
C
Correct. He should have said, hey, Dad, I want to be a music manager. Can you introduce me to people?
- [122:10]
A
Sure.
- [122:10]
C
I want to book venues and. Sure. This and that. Ben Simmons should not be a podcaster, nor will he be.
- [122:16]
B
I just read something. I think it was. I want to say it was Bill Gates, but it was somebody like that who had their kids when they turned 21, or they were going to. They were in that range, and he met them, they had dinner, and he was like, I'm just here to tell you, you're not gonna inherit any of my money. I'm gonna leave each of you $10 million.
- [122:36]
C
I want you to forge your own
- [122:37]
B
way, and that's it. You're not getting anything else.
- [122:41]
C
I get it. By the way, I read in an.
- [122:43]
B
You don't have to worry about that. Cause Sonny's gonna be like, President Sonny's already like a freaking mafia head. Like, you can see him at these games. He's shaking. People are coming up to him. It's like watching Michael Corleone in Godfather 2.
- [122:55]
C
Listen, I appreciate the Michael reference, especially since we named him Sonny in two. Especially. He's definitely not going to come work for me, nor will our daughter Natalie. They're going to. And of course, I will try to help them get into good.
- [123:11]
B
I could see Sonny running the boxing.
- [123:12]
C
Who knows if he's passionate about it and he earns his way in. And by the way, there hasn't been a weekend where I've traveled for wrestling or boxing where he has not traveled with me.
- [123:23]
B
Yeah.
- [123:23]
C
And you remember you and I were at WrestleMania 2016. He's 10.
- [123:28]
B
Yeah.
- [123:29]
C
WrestleMania 2016. We were both at AT&T Stadium for WrestleMania 2016. And you sent me a video of. So Ben's 18 now.
- [123:38]
B
Yeah. Ben doing all the moves and the.
- [123:40]
C
She was 8. So my Instagram, that's like, peak Slamming pillows, wanting to spear you. I'm sure you know this and that.
- [123:48]
B
I told you this. 8 to 10 is the peak little boy age.
- [123:52]
C
It's amazing.
- [123:52]
B
8, 9, 10. Home run.
- [123:54]
C
It's amazing.
- [123:55]
B
They're the best.
- [123:56]
C
Comes with me on the weekend, can go in any meeting that I'm in. There's one rule. You can't talk because to me, he hasn't earned his right to voice his opinion. So he takes notes for me.
- [124:09]
B
It's good. He listens. He absorbs it.
- [124:12]
C
Correct. Listen, absorb it. Be in the room that your father has earned his way into, but don't think like you're here because of you. And I found in combat sports, when you have kids whose parents are somehow associated with it, in it. I haven't seen it work. It might work one day. I haven't seen it work.
- [124:34]
B
Well, you inherited a company that had Vince with his two kids working. But the daughter, Stephanie was really good and wired along like Vince. The son really wanted to run the business on his own. And that was some of what we did the documentary about this really interesting dynamic of father, son.
- [124:55]
C
Didn't you go to the same high school as him?
- [124:58]
B
We lived in the same city when I was in high school, but we didn't go to the same high school.
- [125:01]
C
Got it. Got it. But, yeah, okay. Got it.
- [125:03]
B
Pepsi Prebiotic Cola in original and cherry vanilla that Pepsi taste you love with no artificial sweetener and 3 grams of prebiotic fiber.
- [125:13]
A
Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, unbelievably Pepsi.
- [125:18]
B
One boxing piece that developed in 2026 was obviously the big conflict in the Middle east that's still going. And a lot of the money for some of the stuff you guys were doing, other things were doing was tied up over there. You had plans to go over there. Is this just a weight? Play it by ear. Not a fun topic, but I have to ask.
- [125:37]
C
Oh, yeah, of course. And by the way, just so all the listeners and viewers know, your guest house bigger than my real house. It's true. This room bigger than master bedroom at my house. So I'll come stay here for a while.
- [125:50]
B
All right. You're always invited.
- [125:52]
C
Thank you. Yeah, look, it's a tricky situation there. Keep in mind, I'm the child of Iranian immigrants and, you know, a little bit different than most Iranians in the United States in that my dad came in 1952 when he was five. So in essence, I'm a little more second generation than first. So I don't have family that I've ever met. Who's there but obviously monitoring the situation on the business side and on simply the political side. Number one, we'd never send our wrestlers, our crew, anybody into an unsafe environment. But hopefully this thing clears up in the not too distant future. And I understand hope is not a strategy, so it's a wait and see approach. And did it affect like all the
- [126:33]
B
plans you guys had for the next three to five years? It must have at least a little bit, right?
- [126:37]
C
No, I think, you know, Turkey as you know, had the Tyson Fury co main event. Connor. Ben. Ben with us fight on Netflix. Not a different carrier this past weekend from London.
- [126:50]
B
Yep.
- [126:51]
C
So that fight made or from Tottenham. So that fight made sense at Tottenham Stadium. And you know, we'll work around it and work through it, but nothing's been affected thus far.
- [127:01]
B
So you're dealing with all these different places now, right? That for wwe, the boxing, you don't deal with the UFC as much but. And everyone's settled on their partners, but there's a big courting process sometimes. Sure. What are people better or worse at this than they were 15, 20 years ago when you had like during like the John Skipper era. Now you have like Netflix has Bella and Gabe and all those people and ESPN has Jimmy Pitaro and Burke and Paramount has all their people. And what's different about the whole process than the 2000s anything?
- [127:38]
C
Well, I think, look, I happen to be in a bit of a more senior seat than I was early 2000s. So in dealing with Bella, Gabe, Brandon Reeg, who lives down the street from here, by the way, that means it's a very, very.
- [127:52]
B
Thanks for telling everybody.
- [127:53]
C
Affluent neighborhood, very affluent.
- [127:55]
B
Great.
- [127:56]
C
Brandon Re, who by the way, I've said this many, many times, told me and Stephanie McMahon pre Covid, I don't know that Netflix ever gets in alive, but if they do, you should line up your international media rights because Netflix is not going to do a deal with WWE that says, hey, great news, we have WWE in three countries. So at that time we started putting the process in place where the international rights would all time out with the US rights and boom, the Netflix deal a year and change ago, which has been a game changer for wwe. So they're phenomenal. You got new leadership at Disney with Josh tomorrow. The time was obviously right for Bob. He chose, in essence Bob Iger, his timing and left quickly.
- [128:39]
B
The time is right in 2020.
- [128:43]
C
Listen, it depends on the success of that.
- [128:44]
B
Sometimes it's hard to leave.
- [128:46]
C
Look, I'll tell you this. If the coach of your favorite team had decided I'M just going to be a broadcaster and shut it down. And if the person who was the president before the current president had said, I'm just going to be a one term president, I think they'd both be remembered far differently than they're currently remembered. So it's important that you get out of it before it gets out of you. And that's something we'll have to hold each other to in like 20 years.
- [129:19]
B
It's tough. I totally see it.
- [129:20]
C
It's tough.
- [129:21]
B
Like, even somebody like Lorne Michaels, now He's still producing SNL, he's in his 80s.
- [129:26]
C
It's also like, when you've worked hard, like you have, like, what are you gonna do every day?
- [129:31]
B
That's what. I still love what I do and I still feel like I'm good at it. I don't know five years from now if, like, the question for me is, how would you know if the signs were there that you weren't as good? Who in your life would tell you, hey, you're not as good? I don't think that conversation's ever happening with anybody. But I've noticed I really thought about a lot with Stern. Stern was the first one that I really felt like I had a courtside seat to, no pun intended, of just really watching how he ran everything and then really feeling like he was starting to lose control of the narrative a little bit. The last couple years he was there and he couldn't see it, but I think it affected his legacy a little bit.
- [130:12]
C
To me, in business, there's pirates and there's armadas. Stern was a pirate.
- [130:18]
B
Yeah, right.
- [130:19]
C
Hey, I'm coming to Los Angeles. I'm going to kick Mark and Brian's ass or whoever it was at the time.
- [130:24]
B
I'm going to chew them out.
- [130:25]
C
Correct. And then. City motherfuckers.
- [130:27]
B
Yeah.
- [130:28]
C
You think about the stuttering John stuff at that time, way ahead of the game. Yeah. Just crushing everybody. And the things they would talk about and the character names like way ahead. And then all of a sudden, the pirate became the Armada. And to me, when that happens, you usually see a little slippage. The Pirates need to stay the Pirates.
- [130:48]
B
Wait, you're talking about Howard Stern?
- [130:51]
C
Who are you talking about?
- [130:51]
B
I was talking about David Stern.
- [130:53]
C
Oh, strike that. I love Howard Stern. He hasn't slipped at all. You tell me, is Howard Stern as this?
- [131:01]
B
I would say he's another one. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting one. I mean, that's another good example.
- [131:07]
C
And by the way, people who defend him may say, well, no, it's a smaller universe now. I don't know.
- [131:15]
B
I was talking about David Stern. You were talking about Howard Stern. But the conversation, if you did a transcript, it seemed like we both understood what the other one was saying. Maybe not a good sign for either legacy.
- [131:25]
C
Listen, if there even is a legacy. By the way, Dana White and I, at times, I'll say, hey, they're entering championship rounds. He thinks fifth round, UFC.
- [131:34]
B
Oh, right.
- [131:35]
C
Right. Now, he obviously thinks, you know, 12th round. You know, boxing as well. But even if you look at the vernacular of boxing and the fall off on it, you still hear it. This is like a heavyweight championship fight.
- [131:45]
B
Yeah.
- [131:45]
C
You know, he's taken an eight count. You know, you can run, but you can't hide. Then you hear the UFC come into the vernacular where everybody uses tap out. Yeah, I'm going to tap out. You know, this and that and other, you know, sort of lingo introduced by the UFC into the American culture became part of the zeitgeist. It's part of the zeitgeist boxing. We'll see if we can get it back in. But, yeah, we were talking about two
- [132:05]
B
different Sterns, maybe same issue. One thing with that, I think the difference in 2026, I really noticed this with Amazon doing the NBA this year. I have no dog in this race. I don't care who wins. I just want to enjoy sports. But I think with Amazon, the most interesting piece to me was that Saturday afternoon game they had and Sacramento Denver was one a couple weeks ago, but they would have it. It would be like 1:00 clock PT, right? So 4:00 ET, so late afternoon, but then overseas prime time. Basically it's on like 9 o'. Clock. So you have this Wemby Joker game, and now I'm in all these different countries with it, and if. If I'm the NBA, I'm like, this is fucking incredible. This is. So whatever this is, is where we need to go if we're going to grow the game. Now, the flip side is all the playing, we're taping this on a Tuesday. All the playing games are on Amazon, which is a good thing, because I think they do a good job. It's a bad thing because I think there's a lot of people who, A, don't realize they're on Amazon and B, maybe don't have Amazon and are going to be like, well, wait, what about. I don't want to get Amazon. So there's a little bit of that, and I want to see how that shakes out. Over the next couple years, by the
- [133:19]
C
way, analogous to that when the NFL started doing the European games, I never believed it was solely for the purpose of, oh, we want to develop a European fan base. I thought it was to develop a fourth Sunday window. So if you say on the east coast, well, you know, 10am Eastern, that would be really early. You live in LA, I live in LA, 10am Pacific, you're up watching football. And if you say, well, 7am Pacific on the west coast, that would be far too early. If you look at the ratings and share in Hawaii and Alaska, they watch it just as much as the rest of the country watches it. So I always believed it was to create a fourth window, which it seems like it's heading towards, in addition to establishing international fans, which I think the NFL, first mover in that space, They've done phenomenal work.
- [134:04]
B
That's the only one you really haven't. We could probably talk about pretty freely because you're never going to cross paths with them, right? The NFL, like just how they.
- [134:12]
C
Yeah, we should talk about anything freely.
- [134:14]
B
No, but I think they're fascinating because they're the only entity that sells games, matches, events, whatever, that can basically do whatever they want. And people just have to take a big gulp and then put up with it. Right. I don't know what they're capable of, but this deal they're about to do now that the Paramount merger and all that stuff has allowed them to basically blow up some of their deals, reconsider them. I'm prepared for anything. Like the Friday night rule with the high schools. Are they going to go after that? Are they going to add 18 games with two bye weeks and stretch the super bowl out and basically go into February? Yeah, probably. Are they going to have an international game every week? They might. Are they going to just add four more teams out of nowhere? I don't know. Are they going to be on seven different platforms? Maybe like the WNBA is on seven broadcast partners. Like, to me that means the NFL could do it. So could it just basically be everybody gets a small piece of this and they're just like, this is the price, man. You're either paying it or not. We don't want to hear it. It seems like that's where we're headed.
- [135:24]
C
Everything you laid out has or could happen with the NFL. I'd also, if I was college football and you hear the conversations about, you know, executive order for nil and this and that and second most popular sport as we just talked about in the United States, but makes the fifth most amount of money. Yeah, I'd be looking at that Saturday night and saying, we know the NFL jumps on Saturdays as soon as college football regular season winds down.
- [135:48]
B
You know, post worried about being exclusive on Saturday night.
- [135:52]
C
They did it with the College Football Playoff. Yeah, you know, hey, we're going to go on Saturday. The NFL games and the playoff, I think, went head to head on once.
- [136:01]
B
That opened the door for the NFL to be like, okay, guys, I guess. I guess we're battling.
- [136:07]
C
By the way, think about this also. We discussed this internally. That does not mean it was our exclusive idea. Just so we're clear, myself, Shapiro, Dana, Ari, a number of other folks, Black Friday, amazing day. Black Friday is no different than Thanksgiving day for a lot of people. Okay. Some people go line up at 3:00am to go, yeah, you know, this and that. But for the most part, people are sitting around with food and there's nothing to watch. So the NFL puts a Black Friday game on. And now there's rumors that they're going to add a second Black Friday game.
- [136:42]
B
Well, there's a rumor of the Wednesday before Thanksgiving game.
- [136:45]
C
You said. We, we discussed internally also. And again, I'm not suggesting it was our exclusive idea. That night before Thanksgiving, there's a lot of people at home, like, maybe that's a good night for boxing and it's
- [136:58]
B
a good night for anything.
- [136:59]
C
Anything.
- [137:00]
B
There's nothing on that's like Netflix. I think that was a Stranger Things night for them one of those times. Or somebody released a major TV show that night.
- [137:08]
C
Christmas Eve. Yeah, if Christmas Day, if you have five NBA games, and the NFL said, oh, we're going to go take that also and put 3 NFL. Why would there not be sports on Christmas Eve? So there's a lot of these nights. I think what happened was the traditional thinkers would say, oh, people are traveling. The reality is, you know, my phone's off to the side. You have an iPad there. We can watch whatever we want, wherever we want.
- [137:33]
B
So, yeah, when you're traveling, you're actually still the audience. Whereas I think in the 80s, it was a little different. If I went to Acapulco with my family, 1988, if the hotel didn't have the channel, that was it.
- [137:47]
C
By the way, when Ronda Rousey fought Holly Holm in their rematch, it was December of whatever year that was, and I was in Mexico with my family, and I looked up what bar has the ufc, and we went to go watch the fight. Now that's seven, eight, nine years ago.
- [138:03]
B
Now you're just on an iPad.
- [138:04]
C
Correct.
- [138:05]
B
Or you're streaming it to your hotel TV.
- [138:07]
C
So even 4th of July weekend different this year, 250th anniversary. 4th of July is actually a Saturday, so there's a lot of free entertainment out there. But that weekend and in my prior profession, we really pushed ESPN to have a boxing match on that weekend from Australia. That weekend is wide open for viewership. So open that people watch the hot dog eating contest. There's nothing on.
- [138:31]
B
So what does that tell you?
- [138:33]
C
It's again, summertime for us. Wide open.
- [138:38]
B
How about last weekend of June? Because the draft, they even moved it up, I think even closer to the finals for the NBA. So now it's like that last weekend has zero.
- [138:48]
C
Shockingly, you would say that we have a ple on June 27th.
- [138:52]
B
There you go.
- [138:52]
C
There you go.
- [138:54]
B
What are you the most excited about for WrestleMania?
- [139:00]
C
I think Roman Punk is really interesting to me. I think just.
- [139:03]
B
Just from a career versus career standpoint.
- [139:05]
C
Yeah, I think, you know, Punk said it again on the Go Home show. This is my first one on one WrestleMania main event match. You've had Roman several. And, you know, obviously Punk left for a while and, you know, came back and has done phenomenal work, you know, with us.
- [139:22]
B
That was a coup for you because I would have voted no on that one.
- [139:26]
C
It's interesting though. You've dealt with talent. You may be talent. At one point, one of your employers may have said, oh, he's difficult. I never found you difficult. What's difficult?
- [139:40]
B
I had the last laugh on that one.
- [139:41]
C
Yeah, look at your fucking house, dude.
- [139:44]
B
No, but it's just the difficult thing. It's like, all right, so only one company thought I was difficult. And yet all these other people have also had the exact same issues with that company. Maybe it's the company.
- [139:56]
C
Agreed. So even on Punk, like, okay, when he was in his 20s, he said certain things that he shouldn't have said. What ambitious guy didn't? What ambitious man or woman didn't do that?
- [140:09]
B
But I get where you're going for here. I do think even he would admit I'm a lot more humbled from some of the stuff that's happened to me. I see things from a different perspective. If I go back, I maybe would have done some stuff differently. He's been pretty open talking about that.
- [140:24]
A
Sure.
- [140:24]
C
And look, maybe that applies to you too. Maybe it applies to me also. Things I did earlier in my career that I say to myself, could I
- [140:32]
B
have been a better teammate? Things like that.
- [140:33]
C
That was a little aggressive or Whatever it was. But I'd always rather have that, like, hey, let's rein it in a little bit, then go be more aggressive, because that never works. You can never get anyone to do that.
- [140:45]
B
Punk's at, like, the same stage that Justin Rose was at at the Masters just now. Justin Rose was 45. I picked him to win the Masters, and he almost did. He kind of blew it in the final nine. But he's 45. And in golf years, you're kind of near the end at that point. You can, you know, maybe still make a run in a major until about 50, but for the most part, you're probably still a real threat until 45, 46. Wrestling's a little the. A little similar. You can still do what Cena did and be really careful about how you schedule out stuff. But to be a main event, show up all the time performer. I don't know what the expiration date is, but it's probably somewhere around his age now, right. Middle, late 40s.
- [141:29]
C
The good thing with him and with Brock and with Cena last year is they've all been quite responsible in their life.
- [141:38]
B
Yeah.
- [141:39]
C
So the conversation of, hey, you Brock, or now Punk? You have to tell us when you start feeling like I'm not going the way that I used to go.
- [141:50]
B
Right.
- [141:51]
C
Tell us and let's figure out, you know, something else for you. Again, you have to leave it before it leaves you. So far now. Punk tore his tricep in his first Royal Rumble.
- [142:01]
A
Back.
- [142:01]
C
Yeah. Okay. Came back nine months later. So far know he's performed at an A level.
- [142:06]
B
Fingers crossed you've had some bad luck injuries this decade.
- [142:09]
C
Yeah, look, Bron Breaker went down, then
- [142:11]
B
Seth went down, Bron Breaker went down. I mean, was it true he was going to be in a major Saturday or Sunday? Well, listen, seems like every.
- [142:19]
C
There was a major push behind him that was evident. And, you know, we hadn't finalized, you know, Wrestlemania matches or order of matches at that moment, but you saw Seth come back from the fake injury, which was one of the greatest works of all time, in my opinion. It worked. He even went kayfabe, like, with his young daughter. Yeah, you know, it worked. And then he came back and really got injured, and then Bron got injured. And it's something, you know, we're consistently having to deal with like any other sports franchise. And it can change the whole season. You just saw with the Lakers.
- [142:52]
B
Who's the. Who's the biggest WWWE star in 2033.
- [142:57]
C
I think there's a shot for a couple people I think Rhea is in her late 20s.
- [143:02]
B
Rhea Ripley, she's amazing.
- [143:05]
C
She's amazing.
- [143:06]
B
Yeah. She has a chance.
- [143:11]
C
She has a chance. She's already up there.
- [143:13]
B
She also passes though. When you're in the room test, does this person feel like a major person just walked down the Runway into the ring?
- [143:21]
C
No question.
- [143:21]
B
She has its.
- [143:22]
C
Yeah.
- [143:23]
B
Not a long list for that.
- [143:24]
C
So she's in her 20s.
- [143:26]
B
Roman always had that.
- [143:27]
C
Always.
- [143:28]
B
That was. And that was probably why Vince stuck with him. Even when the fans kind of turned, like you could feel it in the room, like he had something. You knew it.
- [143:35]
C
Listen, there's certain guys who come in the room and everyone comes. Certain men and women who come in the room and everyone comes to them and then there's other people who have to go up to everybody.
- [143:45]
B
Yeah.
- [143:45]
C
So with Rhea, with Roman. Sue me.
- [143:48]
B
Yeah. When I say the room, I'm talking about an 80,000 seat football stadium. But it's. You can't really explain it until you see it. Hogan was the number one all time for that.
- [143:57]
C
As soon as he would appear, actually,
- [143:59]
B
Andre probably was, I think one of those two.
- [144:02]
C
I was feel like Andre was. Even though we've seen so many of his matches, he was like right when I was getting into it.
- [144:07]
B
Yeah.
- [144:07]
C
So.
- [144:08]
B
But if you're there in 1980 and he's walking in the Shea Stadium, it's the most riveting thing you've ever seen.
- [144:13]
C
Were you shocked and or disappointed or hurt when you then saw videos of Hogan previously slamming?
- [144:21]
B
No, I knew about that.
- [144:23]
C
Chase Stadium or did you know?
- [144:24]
B
Yeah, no, we knew about that. Even when we did the documentary. We knew because they toured together for like a year and what was it, 80 or 81 and wrestled in Japan. Like there's a lot of evidence of that.
- [144:35]
C
So we're a couple years apart. Yeah, just a couple years. But when you're 12 and someone's like 16, that's a big difference. So when I was watching, first of all, when Patera and Stud cut Andre's hair, like I couldn't sleep. That was Maybe I was 8 or 7 or 8. Like that was like shocking.
- [144:54]
B
Tough one.
- [144:54]
C
And then when Bundy broke Hogan's ribs, I think so Hogan could go to Japan. I remember like sleepless, like, oh my God, I can't believe he's here.
- [145:03]
B
My first one was Killer Khan breaking Andre's leg. Which Wild Andre broke his leg. But then they said Killer Khan did it. They got a whole awesome angle out of it. And that was a great one. But. Cause Andre was Laid up. He did break his leg.
- [145:16]
C
He's laid up.
- [145:17]
B
You never answered my 30. My 20. 33 question, Rhea.
- [145:21]
C
I'm high on Logan Paul.
- [145:24]
B
He's pretty good.
- [145:25]
C
He's a good dude. And by the way, he puts in the work. So one thing.
- [145:29]
B
But what's in it ultimately, like for him, that's what he wants to be, is to be in this business. Because it seems like he's trying to do so many different things.
- [145:38]
C
I think it's part of what he wants to be, but on a full time basis. He's full time with us now and yeah, he does the card rip its and the Pokemon stuff and his podcast with us through phonetics. He's just turned 30.
- [145:51]
B
Okay, that's good.
- [145:52]
C
So high on Logan. I'm high on Braun. Yeah, it. We cannot rush it though. Gotta sort of let him develop at his own pace. And he's an excellent athlete who obviously grew up in the wrestling business, but let it develop at its own pace, which we're all on the same page about. I think all three of those OBA is an obvious one. I'm high on Trick. I like the fact that he's an SEC athlete. I like the fact that he sort of inherently understands media. I like the fact I always look for people whose inner voice matches their outer voice. I look for that in wrestlers. I look for it in political people. You know, if your inner voice matches your outer voice, you have a shot. Trick Williams is Trick Williams. So I like that.
- [146:37]
B
How much time do you spend talking to Triple H about this? About kind of. What do you think?
- [146:44]
C
A lot.
- [146:45]
B
Yeah. I would imagine this is most of the conversation that is similar from some of the conversations I have in life. Trying to figure out different arcs or different people we have or we're interested
- [146:54]
C
in what's working on your business. Why did that not work?
- [146:58]
B
It's like those two people together, there's something there.
- [147:01]
C
It's also similar to our business. You gotta go. Your frequency is heavy. Yeah. Like if. If you tough to get an audience this way. But if you said, okay, I only have to do, you know, 12 podcasts a year.
- [147:16]
B
No, you have to be in the mix.
- [147:17]
C
Correct. You gotta go every week.
- [147:19]
B
The best ones, though, are when you think it hasn't happened yet, but you're convinced it's gonna happen because we have like not to single pot out, but we have this college football podcast called Ringer Tailgate that I just. I know it's good and I know it's going to be a bigger thing and I feel like this season it could be a bigger thing. And it's just like, we just have the right group of people and the right chemistry, and this is like a show that's going to work.
- [147:45]
C
They speak about college football the way that people who are real college football fans speak about college football.
- [147:49]
B
You just want to hang out with these guys as they shoot the shit about this. And it's like, it's going to happen this year, and if it doesn't happen, I'm going to feel like it's my fault.
- [147:59]
C
I sort of look at things the same way I know Triple H does. Also, if someone has all the tools in the ring, in ring, and puts in the time and manages their life outside of the ring, if it doesn't happen, it's sort of on us.
- [148:13]
B
Right? Right.
- [148:14]
C
The creative. And if they. If they fuck it up, it's different. And there's a lot of chances to fuck it up, as you know.
- [148:20]
B
Well. And sometimes if. For. Especially in wrestling, if the guys get the smoke blown up their butt early and they're doing pretty well, it can go to their heads. We've seen that many times, by the
- [148:29]
C
way, in all professions. When fame comes early 20s, you see it with athletes all the time, sports center anchors.
- [148:37]
B
It's happening. All kinds of people. You saw it in the media business over and over again.
- [148:41]
C
Did you catch the Lamar Odom documentary on Netflix yet?
- [148:43]
B
I didn't watch it.
- [148:45]
C
You knew the whole story.
- [148:46]
B
I know the story, by the way.
- [148:47]
C
I was at UNLV when he was supposed to come to unlv. Remember, he signed there for a moment before he went to Rhode Island.
- [148:53]
B
Yeah.
- [148:54]
C
He was so good, so young that you almost wish, like, he wasn't that good.
- [149:00]
B
Right.
- [149:00]
C
Because the things that you can't teach, he inherently had. But the things that you had to manage, he inherently couldn't manage. And I don't mean to critique his life, but sometimes when you're so young and so good, it can mess you up.
- [149:15]
B
Basketball has a lot of those.
- [149:17]
C
A lot.
- [149:17]
B
I mean, one of the most famous ones ever was Marvin Bad News Barnes, who I think had probably top 25 forward talent, but just off the court, complete disaster. And Taj Mahal tends to catch up with you. There's a couple. Yeah, there's a couple guys. Now that I won't mention that we worry about one thing you guys are doing that I love that. I feel like I'm responsible for this, even though I can't take any credit for it. But I have mentioned it to you every Time we talk. I love managers. Just feel like we never had enough managers. I don't know why we got away from that in the 80s. So now you have McAfee as maybe a heel manager. It seems like we're headed that way, which is weird because he's also doing a show on his pin every day where he's not a heel manager. But I fully support it, but just in general. And then Stephen A said this week that. Is that true? Did you talk to him about potentially being a manager?
- [150:09]
C
Listen, love Stephen A. And by the way, he's bringing his show first take to Vegas for WrestleMania. He would be a phenomenal manager. And he wants to be a heel. Most people say they want to be heels.
- [150:22]
B
He really wants to be heel.
- [150:24]
C
They want to be like the cool heels like hall and Nash. They don't want to be the monster. McAfee came in as a monster heel, different than who he actually is on his show. He's easy. McAfee's easygoing guy from my point of view. Monster heel. I, like you, have always said bring back more managers. It's something again. When Triple H and I went to go see Sean and Matt Bloom a year ago, we said, hey, look, keep in mind, also, in addition to the in ring performers accelerating their path, for ones who may just not have an in ring or who bodies may break down, if they're good on the mic, send them this way. By the way, managerial ring announcers, you know, there's plenty of work to be done. I don't think there's like a ring announcer school.
- [151:06]
B
Who do we think is the best manager of all time?
- [151:09]
C
I go Heyman and Bobby Heenan. What do you say?
- [151:13]
B
I have. I think Heyman is the best one I've ever seen. It actually guiding, kind of owning the room sometimes, like in a way like that. Some of the best wrestlers ever can really, like. Everyone kind of shuts up when he's talking. Keenan was crazy because he could also wrestle and would get thrown around, get his ass kicked. The grand wizard, like that whole era, I still don't really know what his gimmick was, but I was scared of him as a kid. Albano Captain Lu Albano was great.
- [151:49]
C
Do you know that's Pete Bavacua's like, second cousin?
- [151:51]
B
Oh, not suppressed.
- [151:52]
C
Yes.
- [151:53]
B
Yeah, not suppressed.
- [151:53]
C
Lou Albano, like legit cousin or uncle or something like that.
- [151:57]
B
My favorite ones as a teenager who couldn't get a date were Missy Hyde and Miss Elizabeth. Well, listen, so we haven't really brought the late 90s kind of brought it back a little. I still feel like there's some meat on that bone too.
- [152:11]
C
You're also talking, you know, mid-80s, you're 15, 16 years old.
- [152:16]
B
Missy Hyatt, it's an important group though.
- [152:19]
C
Yes, I understand. Missy Hyatt, pretty attractive, by the way. Did you ever catch that? She did one Piper's Place type thing for WWE that didn't work out, of course.
- [152:29]
B
It was called like the Missy.
- [152:31]
C
Yeah, something like that.
- [152:32]
B
Yeah, it didn't go well. They had one major thing on it I had some questions for.
- [152:35]
C
I say, yeah, of course. I didn't know that you knew that.
- [152:37]
B
Well, there was one that was making the rounds. Something happened on one of those, like there was like a really eventful. I can't remember what it was, but there was some sort of major thing that happened in the storyline and it was like, oh, yeah, I forgot you had. That didn't work. Couple questions from my buddies, Gus and Sal.
- [152:54]
C
Yes, sir.
- [152:56]
B
If you could change the result of one match since you've taken over, if you could just go back and mulligan a match, what would the match be?
- [153:05]
C
Well, I don't know that we've taken over.
- [153:08]
B
Well, you know what I mean. Since you've been involved with WWE however many years is there one Mulligan match, you're like, ah, fuck, we should have done that instead. It's a good question.
- [153:18]
C
It's a great question. As I think it through, I think Cody not beating Roman at WrestleMania 2023 was the right move at Sofi and making it wait and ripen another year and doing it in Philly was the right move. What about you? What match have you seen, jog my memory here, where you're like, ah, it shouldn't have played out that way.
- [153:41]
B
Mine is more like, I just don't understand what happened to the Royal Rumble. And maybe it was just because where it was located this year. But I used to like when they were like the five or six completely random. Oh my God, I haven't thought about this person for 20 years. Or oh my God, that's Kevin Nash. He's here. And I don't know why we went away from that.
- [154:04]
C
So I'll tell you, there's one inherent issue that is solvable, but not as easily solvable as it used to be now because as you know, athletes with science and working out and this and that, their careers go much longer than they used to.
- [154:16]
B
Yeah.
- [154:17]
C
If I said to you, okay, who from the late 90s NWO, you know, who would you like to see come back like, there's no one. So, Hogan, rest in peace.
- [154:30]
B
So, yeah, so you'd almost have to go to late 2000s or early 2010s.
- [154:35]
C
So think about Stone Cold retired when he was 38. Just talking about. Punk is 47, retired at 38.
- [154:42]
B
Yeah. See, these are good points, right?
- [154:44]
C
So there aren't Kurt Angle. By the way, I love Kurt Bad knees. Just had double knee surgery. We can't clear him medically. He could come out and do something on the mic and all of that stuff, but there aren't men or women where you're like, this guy's readily available. Remember, even tatanka came back 10, 15 years ago, assumed. Tatanka. How old do you think he is now? 65.
- [155:07]
B
Yokozuno's still alive?
- [155:09]
C
No.
- [155:11]
B
Another question. Would you ever consider doing the 80s thing, using WWE to mirror things that are going on in real life? Like some of the political stuff? That seems like that ship sailed 20 years ago.
- [155:24]
C
It's too tough with the political environment now. Like to have ice officers arresting, like,
- [155:29]
B
never do any of that stuff. That would be crazy. Yeah, that's. That would be awful. But. But could you do, like, I don't know, somebody like a super left liberal wrestler as a heel who's just, like, constantly correcting everybody, or do like a super maga, like, you just would stay away completely from all that stuff?
- [155:50]
C
We did it for a moment in time in NXT when we were coming out of COVID Guy who's in the Wyatt Six now, Joe Gacy was before, he would, let's say, body slam you. He would apologize that he had to.
- [156:05]
B
That didn't work.
- [156:06]
C
No, it didn't work. But he was like, I'm very sorry that I have to wrestle you. Very sorry.
- [156:12]
B
That. So like a politically correct angle, right?
- [156:15]
C
Everything. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
- [156:18]
B
Something there. I mean, it is. One of the great things about wrestling is it always mirrors whatever time of it was happening in. So you think, go back to the 70s and 80s stuff. You can't get mad at some things that were happening because it was like, everybody was cool with it. Really. The only time people weren't cool was the Sergeant Slaughter, Hulk Gulf War. Like, that whole area. That was the one time people be like, yo, what are you guys doing? This is crazy.
- [156:43]
C
Think about it like, life is wrestling. Wrestling is life. Both reflect one another. In my opinion. The Sergeant Slaughter thing, when he's like,
- [156:52]
B
I'm now an Iraqi sympathizer killed.
- [156:55]
C
What are you Doing brings in the Iron Sheik as General Adnan. Brings in no. Brings in Iron Sheik as Colonel Mustafa. Brings in Adnan Al KSI as General Adnan.
- [157:06]
B
It's insane.
- [157:07]
C
Sheik speaking Farsi that is the single
- [157:09]
B
craziest thing they ever did. I can't believe nobody stopped it. One other question from those guys.
- [157:14]
C
Yes?
- [157:15]
B
When do you become a character?
- [157:17]
C
Never.
- [157:17]
B
Never.
- [157:18]
C
That will never happen.
- [157:18]
B
You'll never do it.
- [157:19]
C
Never ever, ever. I'm a behind the scenes guy, by the way. If you remember, in my prior profession, I never asked to do podcasts, did podcasts, did interviews. I believed for me as an agent, it was best for my name to appear after Pay to the Order of only now at a publicly traded company. With WrestleMania coming up, it's different. We obviously want to get media coverage, but Triple H will do most of that on our collective behalf in terms of a character who's also a real life executive. But never, ever, ever will that happen.
- [157:49]
B
What's your biggest fear for the next 18 months?
- [157:55]
C
Listen, I think there's a lot of concerns in the country. I think there's some concerns with the economy. I think the middle class started getting squeezed 10 years ago. So, you know, people with money are fortunate and they have a lot of disposable income. You know, those things can always affect any business. However, I've noticed coming out of COVID during COVID people. This is not my original thought, so we're clear. People wanted to buy things in Covid. Now people want to have great experiences and WWE and boxing and ufc, which I have nothing to do with. On the business side, they're all great live event experiences. So if you can get it right, rarely do people go home disappointed. Hopefully we get it right more than we get it wrong.
- [158:35]
B
Live events, movies, concerts, feels like everything. People want to be around people again. I also think a big piece of that is you can just kind of. You can kind of live a month straight and not see other humans if you really wanted to, or you have less connective tissue. People don't go to the office every day. There's a lot of places where it's like three days a week or two days a week, or work remotely. I think it's one of the last places where people don't go to bars in the same way.
- [159:05]
C
No question. By the way, restaurants. Look at the restaurants closing in. In la, the restaurant thing's bad. There's a number of reasons, but it used to be in LA, on a Thursday night, there were 15 restaurants and we said let's go somewhere fun for dinner. 15 spots you could go to now on a Thursday night. You go, and everything's sleepy. It's different.
- [159:22]
B
People are like they're doing food orders or they're just grocery shopping. Yeah.
- [159:26]
C
So I have some theories on that, by the way.
- [159:28]
B
What?
- [159:28]
C
So food orders, like you said. I also think the proliferation of personal chefs where it's not just billionaires who have them. So you can have someone come cook
- [159:37]
B
for you or cook a bunch of things.
- [159:38]
C
Cook a bunch of things. And I think for celebrities with the iPhone, tough to go out in public. What are you gonna go? You and I are gonna go get drunk and someone's gonna catch you on an iPhone. Oh, that's acting drunk or even speaking to your wife. You know, I'm sure you've seen what people are like, maybe not in Los Angeles and other sorts, people recording you like, oh, there's Bill Simmons, there's Bill Simmons. Like, why would Leonardo DiCaprio subject himself to that? And then fewer people go because of that.
- [160:09]
B
I think the lack of drinking is a piece of this too. At the restaurants, huge. I don't think people drink the same way, just at all.
- [160:18]
C
Huge.
- [160:18]
B
And even like I was talking to Chang and I were talking about this recently because he has a bunch of theories on this. But saying when people, whatever this, the 20 something generation, you go to the bar, you get a drink, you just pay for the drink. And if I bought you a drink, you would immediately venmo me your side of the drink versus keeping the tab open. Sure, nobody keeps the tab open. I've noticed that when I keep the tab open at a place though, bartender always seems really excited people are keeping the tab open. So some of the habits I think are different. But I think the postmates and the food ordering stuff has really hurt. It's just way easier to stay home and eat.
- [160:58]
C
But think about it. When we were kids, you could really only get two things for delivery. Pizza and Chinese food. Now you can get everything delivered. So to your point, and from a
- [161:07]
B
money standpoint, because if you're throwing, if you're driving to the restaurant, maybe there's parking or valet or whatever, then there's service tip. It probably is a cancel out from what you did if you did Uber eats or whatever. Anyway. So yeah, habits change. But I think live events feel like they're even more. I'm so happy movies came back. Same movies are back, like for real. And I think comedies haven't come back, but horror movies have come back. Big tentpole. Stuff, IMAX stuff. And it feels like that at least is good now.
- [161:41]
C
By the way, we went to see the Ryan Gosling movie Week three.
- [161:44]
B
Yeah. Still packed, packed, packed.
- [161:47]
C
At the IMAX version in the Valley. What used to be the arclight Sherman Oaks, I think is now amc. It was great.
- [161:59]
B
So you still feel like from an attendance standpoint, even though you're down a little bit, the live experience still matters and is not something you're worried about.
- [162:06]
C
Listen, we're down like a single digit percentage.
- [162:09]
B
Yeah.
- [162:09]
C
So 1 or 2%, whatever it is. Now, I'm not concerned about that at all. You had Cena's retirement tour, which we planned for. Assume people were gonna. It was real. This is the last time you're going to see him wrestle in this city. We planned for it. Okay. We have, you know, a crop of A plus listers who can main event. Okay. They're not in their 20s or 30s anymore. Let's plan for that. It's all about trying to see what's around the corner and getting ready for it. No different than your business. So, right, originally it was you were the hoops guy.
- [162:41]
B
Right. Then you branch out.
- [162:42]
C
Correct. Now you're doing movies.
- [162:44]
B
Right.
- [162:44]
C
Right. It's like, okay, well, nobody's doing that. Okay, well, I was kind of the movies guy. I referenced Karate Kid earlier. No one else was doing that. It's like, why don't I talk about the other movies that people want to talk about?
- [162:53]
B
Yeah.
- [162:54]
C
So it works.
- [162:55]
B
And what's ESPN brought to you? I think it's still weird to see it on SportsCenter. I have no idea if I like it or not.
- [163:01]
C
The coverage is outstanding.
- [163:02]
B
Yeah, no, they're really covering it like a real sport, which obviously I like because I've always liked wrestling. But it's still. I don't know when I'll get used to it, I guess is my point.
- [163:12]
C
Why do you hurt me?
- [163:13]
B
No, I'm not against it or for it. I'm just like, wow, this is crazy. ESPN used to not acknowledge wrestling and now they're interviewing so and so on the 6pm Sports Center. Just strange.
- [163:24]
C
Listen, keep in mind, 20 plus years ago, WWE was on UPN and the Nashville Network, which became the national network, which became tnn, which became Spike, which is now Paramount. Now we're on Netflix, usa, espn. It's worked out, in my opinion, great for the consumer, great for the company, great for our athletes in terms of their potential to cross over. Like Rock and Cena and the Bellas and the women.
- [163:52]
B
You always want the Good partner that actually is glad to have you and is pushing you for sure.
- [163:57]
C
And I also think I don't like when deals get inherited. So Bella was the driver of the WWE deal at Netflix. Jimmy Pitaro was the driver of the WWE deal at espn. That's a good thing. The successor, as you know, rarely just says, I'm just gonna do what the predecessor did. So I like that the people sort of in the seats were the big champions and have certainly showed up and turn out for us.
- [164:25]
B
Bonus question before we go. How's your back? Can you make two more minutes?
- [164:28]
C
Yeah, we're good. I have a question for you before we go too.
- [164:31]
B
What was your takeaway on the Netflix Paramount Warner Brothers love triangle? Did you think Netflix was going to win?
- [164:44]
C
It certainly appeared that way. But I also thought you have a legitimate billionaire on the other side who was willing to subsidize and use a billionaire. Correct. It's no different if David and Larry Ellison wanted to buy this home. When you wanted to buy this home, I would bet on them to get this home.
- [165:07]
B
Thank God they didn't.
- [165:08]
C
Thank God.
- [165:08]
B
It's a nice studio.
- [165:09]
C
It's a beautiful place. As successful as you are, it's different levels of wealth. You're super, super rich.
- [165:15]
B
So you felt like as soon as. So Netflix is ahead. Seems like they're getting it. And you're like, I'm not counting out the Ellisons yet. If they really want this, they're gonna get it.
- [165:23]
C
Tough group to count out. And I have no inside info. I've only read what's available publicly. But in my opinion, they were never really out. Even when Warner Brothers Discovery wasn't answering texts. And this and that having gone through. And I get it, it was WWE and UFC merging, which seems to have worked quite well under tko having gone through a semi similar transaction. Yeah, right. Warner Brothers Discovery does not have a controlling shareholder, so it was going to be up to the shareholders at a certain price. Purely up to the shareholders at wwe. It was also purely up to the shareholders so long as Vince McMahon was not treated any differently than any other shareholder, which he was not. So whoever presented the best offer for the shareholders was going to get the company. That's how I saw Warner Brothers Discovery in Paramount. And you had one side with unlimited capital. Paramount.
- [166:16]
B
What's your question for me before we go?
- [166:19]
C
I mentioned the term perfect movie earlier and said Karate Kid's a perfect movie. Doesn't mean it has to be an all time great movie.
- [166:24]
B
Perfect for what it wanted to be.
- [166:25]
C
Correct. Tell Me, off the top of your head, what are other perfect movies?
- [166:30]
B
Perfect for what they wanted to be.
- [166:32]
C
Yeah.
- [166:32]
B
Social Network.
- [166:34]
C
Perfect movie. Silence of the Lambs.
- [166:37]
B
Silence of the Lambs. Really good.
- [166:39]
C
No flaws in it. I'm not saying all time. I'm not saying it's the Godfather one or two, but when I watched that movie, I'm like, they didn't mess anything up in this thing. That's what I consider.
- [166:49]
B
Yeah. Because even Heat, which is one of my favorite movies of the last 35 years, there's a whole Natalie Portman plot where I'm like, I don't know. Agreed. Can probably bump that one. Social Network I watch probably every 18 months. And I'm always amazed how every single decision's the right decision from start to finish. You know another one, I mentioned this when I did my most rewatchable movies of the 21st century, and the number one pick was Devil Wears Prada. Perfect movie from beginning and for what it was trying to do. I don't know if the sequel is going to be good.
- [167:22]
C
By the way, the trailer looks amazing.
- [167:24]
B
Yeah, we'll see the original trailer. I always get nervous.
- [167:26]
C
Look, the good thing on sequels now, as you know, and you've talked about this on the rewatch, was many times, they don't have to sort of pick up the storyline now that we left off with, which is what ruined the Karate Kid franchise as a film. Right. You could have just started a different story.
- [167:41]
B
It got weird with Daniel San and Miyagi in three. Well, also when he's like, Daniel San, you're like in your 20s now. You don't have any friends. Why are you still hanging out with this guy? Make some friends your age. What are you doing?
- [167:56]
C
Also, in one, he's fighting for the All Valley Championship and for respect. In two, he's fighting for his life.
- [168:02]
B
I don't know, Two, he's fighting for his life. And then three, he's fighting in the tournament. He gets an exemption all the way to the finals. I don't know what tournament this is. What are those rules? Just goes right to fighting Mike Barnes. It's one of the worst movies ever made.
- [168:18]
C
Quick, last, last question. What was worse, Karate Kid 3 or the new Karate Kid? Not Cobra Kai.
- [168:27]
B
I didn't see the new Karate Kid.
- [168:28]
C
See, that's how much you look down on it. You wouldn't even watch it.
- [168:32]
B
I really get. I have a hard time with the money grab sequels.
- [168:36]
A
Just.
- [168:36]
C
It's like Jaws 2, Jaws 3, Jaws, brutal.
- [168:39]
B
I still haven't seen John Wick 4. I started it. I. I think I'm good with John Wick. I love John Wick. I love one and two. Three's fine.
- [168:47]
C
When did you cut out on Terminator poster behind you?
- [168:50]
B
After two.
- [168:51]
C
After two.
- [168:51]
B
Same. Yeah.
- [168:52]
C
1991. Two came out, which was great.
- [168:55]
B
Alien. I was good after two. I'm sure there were other good ones. I'm. I'm fine with those. Halloween I stuck with all the way through. That's probably the only one. Just kept going the whole time.
- [169:06]
C
Did you get the opportunity to rewatch these movies with your children for the first time when they were younger?
- [169:12]
B
Yeah.
- [169:12]
C
And were they as into most of them as you were?
- [169:16]
B
Definitely some of them. I'm sure you're going through it now.
- [169:18]
C
Yes.
- [169:19]
B
We were always three, four years too early with movies with our kids. We just really pushed the envelope in probably damaging ways. In retrospect, who knows? Dude, I just tried to show our
- [169:31]
C
children Full Metal Jacket.
- [169:33]
B
Oh, God. I wouldn't have done that one.
- [169:35]
C
I'm like, you're gonna love this. Opening scene. And one minute in, two minutes in, I'm like, okay, we're gonna have to wait.
- [169:42]
B
Yeah. It's a wrap.
- [169:43]
C
It was rough.
- [169:44]
B
It was rough.
- [169:44]
C
Yeah.
- [169:44]
B
That's a tough one.
- [169:45]
C
Yeah. For some reason, I thought they would like it now.
- [169:47]
B
We would push the envelope with the horror movies, but usually no. Oh, here's the scene of Halloween when Bob's gonna have sex with PJ souls. Like, I'm gonna fast forward a little ahead here. But for the most part, like, we were like, they're gonna find this stuff anyway. We might as well, like, watch it with them and kind of edit it as it goes along.
- [170:05]
C
So my son Sonny, who you mentioned earlier, was begging to watch 8 Mile.
- [170:09]
B
Yeah.
- [170:09]
C
And I was like, yeah, I think we can do it. I think we do it. There's one scene in the Factory we'll have to fast forward. Opening scene is Kim Basinger on the couch.
- [170:17]
B
And I was like, okay, yeah, that sort of.
- [170:19]
C
We gotta wait a little bit here. We forget certain scenes. I get you can look it up, but that scene was not at the forefront of my mind.
- [170:27]
B
All right, so big winners of this podcast was. I think Rhea Ripley was a winner. Logan Paul, all the people that run all the streaming companies you deal with. Yes, me. Because you complimented the studio.
- [170:42]
C
Dude, you're a true American success story. You are. It's what I say about Dana White. Also, you went. Each of you went. You were employed by. For our generation. The brag was. I work at ESPN. I work at this agency. It wasn't in 2005. I'm going to go start my own company and sell it for however many kajillions you sold.
- [171:04]
B
Well, you weren't allowed to leave espn. It was like if you left, your career was never going to recover. That was what everybody said. Even though Dan Patrick, by the way, did fine.
- [171:15]
C
It did great, by the way. I saw you when you left espn. You were at a Clippers game, like, the Saturday after.
- [171:24]
B
I was. Yeah, I went with my friend Ben, like, a week later.
- [171:27]
C
And I remember seeing you, and it was one of the only times I seen you. I've seen you where I thought you looked like a little. Not sad, but you didn't. Usually, if I see you, especially at hoops games, it's like, what's up? And I'll say, hey, give me your analysis of this game and you'll give it to me. I don't know hoops like you do, and we'll have a conversation. And then I was like. And I started seeing you build, right? I'm like, oh, dude, this guy's building an empire over here. And at that time, when you were doing Grantland, Jalen Rose and Jacoby, and all those guys would refer to you as the Podfather.
- [172:01]
B
Right?
- [172:02]
C
Right. And you were. You saw around the corner where this whole thing was going. So in a way, first mover, who also happened to be great at it. And then, okay, my thing, your thing, it's working now. I'm going to replicate and try to build an empire. You did it. Dana White did it. Ari Emanuel did it. All credit to people like that, by the way. Mark Shapiro told me when I called him when I took the WWE job, he said, give me a piece of advice. He said, you're going in as the president of the company. Just keep in mind, founder CEOs different than regular CEOs. You got to give a little more leeway because they were the ones that went out and said, fuck this, I'm going to go start something and try to make it.
- [172:40]
B
Now you're going to be fired up to start something else.
- [172:42]
C
Might have to maybe invest something we finally do once.
- [172:46]
B
Yeah, see, that's how smart I was.
- [172:48]
C
Turned back on UFC. Turn back on TKO.
- [172:51]
B
So stupid.
- [172:52]
C
Can't go to WrestleMania because NBA playoffs.
- [172:54]
B
I don't see how they're going to solve the meteorites. The new media rights issue. One of the worst analysis ever.
- [173:00]
C
Listen, all you need is one. And this was a line I saw on CBS Sunday Morning. It said, if you have two bidders on one property who don't like each
- [173:11]
B
other,
- [173:13]
C
then you're in business.
- [173:14]
B
I mean, that's Zaslav. All he needed was the Ellisons to be like, fuck, we gotta get this thing. And that's what he was banking on. Their stock was like $8 at one point. Dude.
- [173:26]
C
People laughed at him. He. He always made good money. You had 600 pound sisters laughed at him. He went and convinced what was Time Warner. Let the minnow swallow the whale. Let me take it over. AT&T took that debt. They said, oh, it's never going to work. Sells the company. Big transaction credit. Tim. I have nothing negative to say about that.
- [173:50]
B
Pulled it off. Pulled it off.
- [173:52]
C
You know how hard it is to pull it off. Think about how many people try and how many people fail.
- [173:56]
A
He did it.
- [173:57]
C
You did it. The others I mentioned did it. It's impressive.
- [174:00]
B
By the way, thanks for watching.
- [174:01]
C
I like our chance.
- [174:01]
B
Thanks for ending on a compliment.
- [174:03]
C
Of course.
- [174:03]
B
It was great. Good luck. This weekend on WrestleMania. I'm not going this weekend. Yeah, I'm taking the urge.
- [174:08]
C
You care about NBA?
- [174:09]
B
No, it's because my son went to Coachella for three days and we can't do the two straight weekends.
- [174:14]
C
Is this the first Coachella on YouTube or has it always been on YouTube?
- [174:18]
B
No, I think they did that before.
- [174:19]
C
Okay.
- [174:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [174:20]
C
Cause our daughter Natalie's now 14. So this weekend it was a lot of let's watch Coachella on YouTube, which, you know, we watched with her, which I thought was a great platform to have that on the Quasar stage. Never even heard of these terms.
- [174:33]
B
It feels like they. Every year they've upped some sort of visibility with it. Like it feels slightly more relevant as the decade has gone along post Covid and I don't really know why. It's like my son was excited. The band he was most excited about was the strokes. It's a 25 year old band. He was like, they were awesome.
- [174:51]
C
By the way. To your point and what we talked about earlier, people love experiences. So whatever Coachella is or was, you see the price of those tickets, you see how people are getting there. It's nuts right now. By the way. I don't understand the whole Burning man thing for grownups.
- [175:07]
B
I don't understand either. As I said, Coachella combines a lot of things. I don't like having a pain in the ass travel trip, having to rent a place, a lot of like aimless walking.
- [175:19]
C
I don't like concerts in general.
- [175:20]
B
Yeah, just like not knowing where to be the whole time and just constantly feeling like you're gonna make the right. It's not. Not for me.
- [175:27]
C
How about the.
- [175:28]
B
I like just going to Wrestlemania and I just watch.
- [175:31]
C
Now I will sit here.
- [175:32]
B
Yeah.
- [175:32]
C
And if I want to go get some popcorn, I'll go get it. Maybe someone can get it for way better. Then where's the stage and where's the restaurant?
- [175:39]
B
Do you want to go there? I don't get it.
- [175:42]
C
Hate, hate, hate.
- [175:42]
B
All right, that's the old guys on the sofa.
- [175:45]
C
Thanks.
- [175:45]
B
Good luck with Wrestlemania.
- [175:46]
C
Thanks, man. Let me know what you think after. Appreciate it.
- [175:50]
B
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Doc and Nick. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. Don't forget to check out Legata over the weekend. It's awesome. You're going to love it. New narrative podcast from the Ringer. Don't forget to check out on the rewatchables if you miss Basic Instinct. Fine. Kindergarten Cops coming up. And that's on Netflix as well, if you want to check that out. This podcast is on Netflix, if you didn't know that. Enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the basketball. Hockey, I think is starting. Is hockey starting? I'm about to jump on the Bruins bandwagon again. And enjoy the baseball and enjoy the sports and try to stay married. I will see you on Sunday night with Zach Lowe live on Netflix. 21 in present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amount. C terms and sportsbook.fanduel.com, gaming problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER-1-800, my reset. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7806.