An NBA Roundtable With Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – NBA Roundtable With Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine

Episode Information

• Title: An NBA Roundtable With Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine
• Host: Bill Simmons, The Ringer
• Guests: Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine
• Release Date: January 31, 2025

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Finals Forecast: Eddie Johnson’s Predictions and Critiques

The episode kicks off with Bill Simmons addressing the NBA Finals predictions, specifically highlighting Eddie Johnson’s controversial pick of a Minnesota vs. Philadelphia finals matchup. Simmons challenges Johnson’s reasoning, pointing out inconsistencies in Johnson’s analysis.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons [04:42]: "I looked it up. That finals pick is three games under .500. Eddie. Like if. If it can't get over 500, do you just retire at the end of the year?"

Eddie defends his pick by emphasizing Philadelphia’s adaptability despite missing key players, arguing that their ability to win without top talents could lead to a championship similar to Miami’s past successes.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [04:42]: "Philadelphia is learning how to win without the best center in the NBA... I think we might see a repeat of Miami of a couple of years ago."

Justin Termine adds his perspective, critiquing Johnson’s inaccuracies and supporting the notion that Philadelphia’s depth could indeed make them a formidable contender.

Notable Quote:

• Justin Termine [05:12]: "If you took out what, Karl Anthony Towns, Joker, if you took out Wembanyama, if you took out Anthony Davis, maybe he's got a point."

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Joel Embiid: Health, Trade Value, and Legacy

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Joel Embiid—his health, trade value, and overall impact on the NBA.

Health Concerns: Eddie underscores the importance of Embiid being fully healthy, criticizing him for not maintaining 100% fitness. He suggests that without Embiid’s full health, any team relying on him would struggle.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [06:18]: "He needs to get 100%. Like some guys can get 90. He can't. He's got to be a hundred."

Trade Value: The conversation shifts to Embiid’s tradability, with Eddie and Justin debating whether any team would be willing to take on his hefty contract given his injury history. They entertain the possibility that only teams with substantial cap space and need for his skills might pursue him.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [10:03]: "If Joel Embiid went to a potential trade team and worked out for them and looked good in his workout, that they wouldn't trade for him. Are you all crazy?"

Legacy: Bill and Eddie reflect on Embiid’s legacy, weighing his individual talents against his injury woes. They compare his situation to past greats, contemplating how his career might be remembered.

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All-Star Game Snubs: Analyzing Devin Booker and Norman Powell

The panel critiques several All-Star Game selections, focusing on Devin Booker’s exclusion and Norman Powell’s deserved inclusion.

Devin Booker’s Snub: Both guests agree that Devin Booker was unfairly left out of the All-Star roster, despite his consistent performance and importance to his team.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [12:36]: "He got off to a slow start this year, and the record is right there in the middle of the pack of the West... I think people are vulnerable when you're in that situation."

Norman Powell’s Inclusion: Conversely, they praise Norman Powell’s All-Star selection, arguing he should have been recognized alongside more prominent players.

Notable Quote:

• Justin Termine [13:53]: "I thought he should have made it. And, you know, something Eddie and I agree on is I think."

The discussion touches on how team success often influences All-Star selections, sometimes overlooking individual talents that deserve recognition.

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Team Dynamics: Phoenix Suns and Golden State Warriors Trade Strategies

A deep dive into the Phoenix Suns and Golden State Warriors’ current team strategies reveals underlying issues and potential moves.

Phoenix Suns: Bill emphasizes concerns about the Suns’ rebounding and turnover rates, attributing their struggles to a weak center rotation and poor defensive rebounding.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [72:55]: "They got the biggest problem. It's the rebounding. And if they can shore that up... then I think it helps, that's all."

Golden State Warriors: The panel discusses potential trades involving Andrew Wiggins, Jonathan Kuminga, and Jordan Poole. Eddie expresses skepticism about trading key players unless they return significant value, highlighting Golden State’s reluctance to part with essential assets.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [29:38]: "It's a lot. I just think it's a lot."

They debate whether Golden State’s current roster can sustain competitiveness without major trades and whether any potential moves would truly benefit the team’s future.

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Legacy and Trades: Kevin Durant's Career and Number Retirements

The conversation shifts to Kevin Durant’s career moves, legacy, and the likelihood of his jersey being retired by multiple teams.

Durant’s Trades: Bill and Eddie reflect on Durant’s multiple team changes, analyzing how each move affects his legacy and relationships with teams.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [65:31]: "He's the biggest freak of nature I've ever seen."

Number Retirements: They speculate on which teams will honor Durant post-retirement, considering his contributions and the impact he had during his tenure with each franchise.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons [77:48]: "I think Golden State won 73 games. Curry was hurt...stuff got weird in Cleveland."

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LeBron James and Russell Westbrook: Team Synergy and Performance

Bill, Eddie, and Justin delve into the dynamics between LeBron James and Russell Westbrook, exploring how their partnership affected team performance.

Team Fit: Eddie criticizes the incompatibility of LeBron and Westbrook’s playing styles, suggesting that both handling the ball led to conflicts and inefficiencies on the court.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [82:45]: "But just look, if Denver wins, it's gonna be Westbrook leading Jokic, so don't worry about it."

Performance Issues: They discuss Westbrook’s physical decline and how it impacts his performance, comparing his current state to his prime years.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons [84:08]: "He seems like he's like 95% as explosive as he was 12 years ago."

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Player Fit and Team Building: De'Aaron Fox’s Potential Move to Spurs

The panel explores the potential trade of De'Aaron Fox to the San Antonio Spurs, analyzing how Fox could fit into the Spurs’ system and the implications for both teams.

Trade Viability: Bill proposes a hypothetical trade involving Fox, Jonathan Kuminga, and Jordan Poole, questioning whether Miami would benefit from acquiring Fox’s playmaking abilities in exchange for Golden State’s assets.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons [56:23]: "Because Eddie, if Eddie could still play, Eddie would be like, 'I'm here, I'll stand in the corner.'"

Spurs’ Strategy: Eddie evaluates the Spurs’ needs, emphasizing Fox’s defensive capabilities and fit with the team’s existing roster, while Justin expresses reservations about Fox’s three-point shooting and defensive impact.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [57:19]: "I mean, all you gotta do is stay in. I don't know about that."

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Legacy and Team Dynamics: Kevin Durant and Others

Further discussion ensues about Kevin Durant’s relentless work ethic, the challenges legacy poses, and comparisons to other NBA legends like Vince Carter.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [73:11]: "He's just relentless, man. Like when I tell you he's just relentless, the dude...he just, he understands his craft."

Handling Legacies: The trio debates how players’ relationships with teams affect their legacies, using Durant and LeBron as primary examples. They discuss the role of team success in individual legacy and how public perception can shift based on career decisions.

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Playoff Predictions and Team Performance

In the closing segments, Bill, Eddie, and Justin share their playoff predictions, focusing on the Eastern and Western Conferences' competitiveness.

Eastern Conference: Bill leans towards the Bucks as potential champions, while Eddie remains skeptical but acknowledges Boston’s and Cleveland’s strengths.

Notable Quote:

• Justin Termini [85:52]: "I take them as a legitimate threat. I have them number two behind Boston in the East."

Western Conference: They debate the Western Conference’s depth, with Eddie highlighting Oklahoma City’s vulnerabilities despite their talent.

Notable Quote:

• Eddie Johnson [37:28]: "I think the west is wide open."

Final Prediction: Bill asserts that the 2025 champion is likely to emerge from the East, although Eddie offers a counterpoint, emphasizing the unpredictability and potential for Western teams to overcome current challenges.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons [43:13]: "The 2025 champion will come from the East."

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the guests sharing final thoughts on various NBA topics, from player performances to team strategies. Bill thanks Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine for their insights, reinforcing the podcast’s commitment to in-depth NBA analysis.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons [98:37]: "Thank you. Speaking of the Phoenix Suns, the All Star rosters came out today...That's coming on Sunday. Maybe we'll do some basketball, too."

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Key Takeaways:

• Joel Embiid’s health and trade value are pivotal for Philadelphia’s championship prospects.
• All-Star selections often overlook deserving players like Devin Booker, influenced by team performance.
• Team dynamics and trade strategies of the Phoenix Suns and Golden State Warriors** significantly impact their competitiveness.
• Kevin Durant’s legacy remains complex due to his multiple team moves, juxtaposed with his on-court excellence.
• LeBron James and Russell Westbrook’s partnership highlights challenges in team synergies.
• De'Aaron Fox’s potential trade to the Spurs** could reshape team strategies and performance.

The episode offers a comprehensive analysis of current NBA scenarios, providing listeners with nuanced perspectives on players, teams, and future predictions.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

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[Eddie Johnson]

Well, my plan is I think Philadelphia is learning how to win without the best center in the NBA. I think they're learning to win without the best center in the NBA. One of the best small forwards in the NBA, he's been injured, Paul Joyce. And if they're learning to win without them, too, and those two come back and they're in the play in, I think we might see a repeat of Miami of a couple of years ago. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Justin, any comments on that one?

[Justin Termini]

Well, Bill, this Is this is what I deal with every single day. And I say a lot of stupid things, and I still look like I'm rather intelligent because of things like this from Eddie. I mean, how many things did he get wrong there? Paul George, one of the best small forwards in the NBA. Yeah. Like seven years ago, Joel Embiid, the best center in the NBA. Yeah. Maybe if you took out what, Karl Anthony Towns, Joker, if you took out Wembanyama, if you took out Anthony Davis, maybe he's got a point. And Miami of a couple of years ago, Great point, Eddie. I think Cleveland, Boston and New York are shaking in their boots.

[Eddie Johnson]

That's amazing. When Embiid was basically the MVP two years ago and he got injured. And so you basically judging Embiid based on an injury and saying that those guys are better than him. I'll give you Jokic. I mean, those are the two top players. But anybody else you're putting above Embiid, you're basically using the excuse that he's injured and saying he's not good anymore so you can go kick rocks.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you in the Matrix where Joel Embiid plays basketball games? Because we're living here on planet Earth when he's in street clothes every game.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, I've seen Guy. Well, I think they're doing the right thing with him right now, Bill. I think they sit him out, let him get 100% healthy. I think he's been trying to come back, and he hasn't been 100% healthy. I don't think he started the season 100% healthy. And he's paid a price. And I think what they're doing right now is the right things. And guess what? If he can't play the rest of the year, I wouldn't play him. And I've said that on our show. And then that's when you have to suffer the consequences of having to wait another year. But for me, I think he needs to get 100%. Like some guys can get 90. He can't. He's got to be a hundred. And I think that's what they're doing with him right now.

[Justin Termini]

Bill, when's the last time I would say this to you? When's the last time, Bill, that a guy that was 7ft tall was having issues with his feet, was having issues with his knees, all of a sudden he ended up improving. Right. And getting better?

[Bill Simmons]

In his 30s.

[Justin Termini]

Exactly. I can't. I can't think of one. And something Eddie and I agree on is I think. I think Embiid loves to play, right? And there's some stars that maybe don't love to play. We've had that debate with Jimmy Butler, who's like, I don't take the regular season seriously till after the All Star Game. He's always missing games like Eddie. And I agree he probably doesn't like playing the game that much. Embiid, I think, likes playing. But does Embiid like putting in the work that is required to play to stay in shape in the off season? And I think that's on him. So you can't criticize him for being hurt all the time and having a bad body, but you can get on his case for not putting the work in in the off season in order to condition himself appropriately.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree with Justin, which won't be the last time in this podcast. Sorry, Eddie.

[Eddie Johnson]

I was double teamed a lot in high school and college, so it doesn't matter. And at times in the NBA. So I can handle it. I'm fine. I guarantee you I won't throw the ball away like some guys.

[Justin Termini]

Unlike Devin Booker. You're not going to complain about being double teamed. I start.

[Bill Simmons]

You mean not All Star. Devin Booker. Embiid. A lot of wear and tear, bad injury history of big men over 7ft who hit their 30s and have been in the automobile shop a lot, shall we say? So I think if I'm Philly, I'm just terrified. One of the things, I put up a trade value list today where I ranked the best trade assets in the league. And we did. I had 85 this year and I had Embiid, number 54 on the list. And a couple people reached out to me in NBA circles and were like, you could have put him 254th. Nobody is trading for him in that contract. I don't, I'm not positive. I feel like it's gotten to that point. But Justin, do you feel like, is he, is he even tradable at this point or is it just like we have no idea what to expect with this dude anymore?

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, I was talking about this the other day with Ryan McDonough, the former GM of the Suns, and he called it the worst contract in the sport. So, you know, he's thinking along the lines of you that nobody would deal for the guy. And I was like talking about it on the show with, with Sam Mitchell. He was filling in for Eddie here today and we brought up like Jared Allen. I mean, you're in position to win a championship right now in Cleveland. You think Cleveland's doing anything with Joel Embiid if it was like for Jared Allen. No, they're going to stay with Jared Allen even though he's nowhere as talented as, as Joel Embiid. So yeah, I mean, I think they're in a spot where who wants to be paying this guy 60 plus million dollars in 2029 when he's already got bad knees four years prior to that?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm, I'm on that line, Eddie, but you probably would bet on the talent.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, I would look at it more like this and I've said it. I said if he's injured, sit out and don't play. But if you all are telling me that a team worked out Joel Embiid past his injury and you all know that each team has his own ego. They always have. They think their trainers can get a guy. Right? So both of you all are telling me that if Joel Embiid went to a potential trade team and worked out for them and looked good in his workout, that they wouldn't trade for him. Are you all crazy?

[Justin Termini]

For 60 million plus dollars? I mean, didn't the Lakers turn down Bill Walters?

[Eddie Johnson]

I think it's teams out there. It's teams out there right now. If they worked him out and they saw that he was healthy, they trade for him in a heartbeat.

[Bill Simmons]

So I, so now I went from. I agreed with everything you said, Justin. I also agree with Eddie. There's always a sucker out there who's going to talk themselves into it. We see it over and over again. I never would have thought the Clippers were going to give Kawhi an extension after he just kept missing the playoffs. And they're like, here, take this. Like we see it over. I never thought Zion would be able to get any sort of a multi year anything and he did.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Johnson]

For the Suns can make a trade under the second April. People didn't think that things can happen.

[Justin Termini]

And you're right, there is always a sucker. And Phoenix probably would be the sucker the way that they're going out and.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean that's a fair commentary.

[Justin Termini]

There you go. There's the Phoenix.

[Bill Simmons]

Phoenix is the sucker at the poker table that all the other poker players are trying to keep at the table. Two more hours.

[Eddie Johnson]

I go a step further. If the Boston Celtics worked him out and thought he was healthy, they trade for him in a heartbeat.

[Bill Simmons]

Do we not have a luxury tax anymore? I think the subject's going the other way.

[Eddie Johnson]

Hey, maybe they'll give up Jalen. They're not going to give up Tatum. But they trade for him. I hope that if they worked him out and saw he was healthy, they trade for him in a heartbeat. Without a doubt. They would. Yes, they would.

[Bill Simmons]

If I had to make my they'd be crazy enough to trade for him list, I think Golden State would do it just because I think Golden State right now, it's not Hail Mary time for Golden State, but they're like, it's third and 13, third and 15, and I think they just need to do anything. Phoenix is definitely. If Phoenix could turn Beal and Embiid, they would do that.

[Eddie Johnson]

No, we wouldn't. We wouldn't do that. We wouldn't do that. We wouldn't.

[Bill Simmons]

What are you talking about?

[Eddie Johnson]

We wouldn't do that Trade.

[Bill Simmons]

You wouldn't trade Beal for Embiid.

[Justin Termini]

That one I actually agree with. No, we wouldn't do it for Bradley Beal.

[Eddie Johnson]

We wouldn't do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Is did something happen with Bradley Beal professionally that I. That I'm missing?

[Eddie Johnson]

We wouldn't do it. I'm just kidding, man. I'm just kidding.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. Thank you. Speaking of the Phoenix Suns, the All Star rosters came out today and I had surprisingly very few quibbles. I would get to my one quibble, but I did notice that the great Devin Booker, who we're on a lot of texts with, Eddie, where we have to hear about the virtues of Devin Booker and how great he is, did not make the All Star team. Your defense, Eddie.

[Eddie Johnson]

No, he didn't. And I think he should have. Look, put it this way, I think Norman Powell should have made it from the Clippers. Even on my pregame show for the Suns the other day, I didn't pick Devin. And it wasn't that he wasn't worthy. It was a number of players that were out there that should have made it. Kyrie, obviously, Norman Powell, you had guards out there that were worthy of being picked. And I felt record, as Justin knows, I always lean toward record. And I thought Kyrie should have been the 1 pick. I do. I think based on what he's done without Luka, I think that's all star level. Even though James Harden is playing an unselfish brand of basketball and he's changed his game a lot. He's shooting, what, low 40s from the field. I just don't see how he made it over Norman Powell and over Devin Booker. I thought one of those two with Kyrie to me, and obviously I had Jalen Williams in that group because I thought people wouldn't pick him. Should have made it. So you know, look, I'm not. I'm not surprised that Devin didn't make it. He got off to a slow start this year, and the record is right there in the middle of the pack of the West. And so you're vulnerable when you're in that situation.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. And I actually, Bill, agree with Eddie on Norm Powell. I thought he should have made it. And, you know, listen, Eddie says a lot of crazy things that are absolutely ridiculous. Something I said at the beginning of the season that I owe an apology is to the Clippers, because I killed them, as did a lot of other people. It's worked out perfectly. And Norm Powell, like, at the beginning of the season, said, you know, that it's subdition by subtraction. Well, he's taken advantage of it. I think he should be an All Star. And then on the Devin Booker front, like, you know, Eddie, I think, broke it down fairly right there. He probably didn't deserve to be there, but it is kind of a major knock on his legacy because this is a guy I feel like is talented enough where he should be there every single year. There's really no excuse for him not to make All Star teams. And now it's two of the last three years where he hasn't made it. And you look at a guy like Eddie and myself and you fight about Jayson Tatum. Say what you want. Not only does he make the All Star team every single year, he also makes first team all NBA every year. Then you have Devin Booker, who should be maybe in the same category as him or slightly behind, and he's missing out on stuff like this. I mean, that's a bad look, I think, for Devin.

[Bill Simmons]

Devin Booker's resume, you know, so I go both ways. But first of all, I don't like the word snub with the All Star Game when we have a lot of good players. Right. If you go back 20 years, which I wrote about in the trade value intro today, like, we. We didn't have a crapload of talent in like 2007. So if you got snubbed from the All Star Game, you feel it now. We have so many good players. Like I. The most surprising one was Kyrie more surprising than Booker. I didn't like the thought of having two sons, All Stars when they're a.500 team. But I think Kyrie, what he's done without Luka and the fact that he's just day to day, night to night, showing up, carrying them, I thought he should have made it. That was the biggest stump to me. I don't understand why we had all these centers. I have no idea why Sengun if you're going to have four centers, how does Shen Goon make it over Sabonis? But then Eddie, the other side of it is I do like when they reward the guys on winning team and it's like, yeah, I get it. Houston should have an all star.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah. And I've always said that. I've always said that.

[Bill Simmons]

So Shangu makes it over Sabonis. I get it. But I don't understand the Kyrie part. And I would have Kyrie over Harden.

[Justin Termini]

Let me just say this about Kyrie real quick. Eddie is like, don't forget who's voting for this stuff as well. How many times did Kyrie give coaches throughout the course of his career a hard time? Bail on teams, get coaches fired. So I wouldn't be shocked if some coaches look at that and they go, oh, well, Steve Nash gets fired because of the attitude issue. He gives Brad Stevens a really difficult time. You know, Ty Lu, just the different coaches that he's had run ins with. I think that kind of factors into some of this stuff as well.

[Eddie Johnson]

I think a lot. I think a lot of stuff goes into it. I do. I think teams competing with one another, all of that. I think it does when you just give the coaches to vote, you know, attitude can come into play. So I'm not shocked by any of that. For me, I think personally, you know, Devin is going to. That should focus him in the second half of the season. It's definitely a disappointment for him. I know he's not happy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's.

[Eddie Johnson]

And, and so being not happy, he would like to think that he's going to just ramp himself up even more.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's long memories with the voting. I think that's a really good point about Kyrie. I've actually like, Kyrie was one of my least favorite basketball players. I really appreciated the way he's turned his career around the last few years. You got to hand it to him. I thought he acted like a pro last year. I thought he showed up and that's all we ever wanted from him.

[Eddie Johnson]

You know what, really what it is is now we're seeing what his teammates have been saying, but we didn't believe it.

[Bill Simmons]

But he also wasn't showing. When you're not playing basketball, when you're. You're acting erratically and giving weird press.

[Eddie Johnson]

Conferences, but his teammates still loved him. Like, you didn't hear his teammates get on him like, so. So I think what we're seeing now is what the. The full beauty of Kyrie. Right. Without the stuff that was going on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Eddie Johnson]

Because his teammates in the locker room, man, you talk to, you listen or you watch. I mean, dude paying guys fines, like, I mean, it's just stuff like that that he does that a lot of stars don't do.

[Bill Simmons]

I 80% agree. But even Kyrie last year was like, yeah, I acted like a jerk. There's some things I would take back. Like, he admitted it.

[Eddie Johnson]

I totally agree. He did. I got on him. I mean, I got on him totally during the COVID situation and all of that. But what I'm saying is the things that I've heard about him is he's a great teammate. Like, and so now we're able to see it and not worry about the other stuff.

[Justin Termini]

Right. I wouldn't say it was all. Yeah, I wouldn't say that was all on the media. I mean, Jaylen Brown gets along with him now. He didn't do that when he was in Boston. I thought one of the worst things that I saw from a teammate and I think the worst thing on his resume is a game, Game seven of the Eastern Conference finals when he's hurt and he's not sitting there supporting his teammates. When he was claiming that he was a leader, that wasn't a good teammate. So, yeah, people are speaking of him highly now. I don't think it's been that way all the time because Jaylen Brown didn't get along with him in Boston. Marcus Smart had his run ins with him in Boston, as did other teams.

[Eddie Johnson]

Everybody has run ins. Come on. But I just think that was more team oriented attitude from Kyrie than his teammates. And that's why Jaylen. And that's why Jaylen Brown is friends with him again, because he understands that now. It wasn't personal with the players. It was more directed at the team.

[Bill Simmons]

I believe what you just said about Kyrie and the teammates made me think of Westbrook and how Westbrook's teammates always loved him. Lakers accepted. I don't know, you know, although I do think a lot of the Lakers had him, but obviously it didn't work out well at all. But the teammates always swore by Westbrook, even when there was stuff about, you know, him stat padding him, trying to grab all the free throw, rebounds, all that stuff. And all his teammates loved him.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's good to see those two guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you play like with anybody like that where it's just like a beloved teammate guy?

[Eddie Johnson]

I mean, oh, what, you mean that? Say it again now.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a star that you played with who was like, just. Everybody was all in and loved him.

[Eddie Johnson]

Charles. Charles was unbelievable. You say what you want about Charles, and I know Scotty has something out there about Charles in regards to playing with him and all of that, but Scotty just can't. He can't admit and say that Charles wasn't a great dude, man. He's one of the best teammates I've ever had, and they had him for a short period of time, but I've had some great teammates. I mean, Nate McMillan, Gary Payton was a great teammate.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Eddie Johnson]

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. That was my guy, man. Like, you know, it's just, you know, he was brash. You know, he would say, but I love that about him. But, no, he was a great teammate. And so there's a lot of guys out there that were. But they never got the, you know, the respect or the admiration because of things that maybe was outside the game with them. And. But Charles, man, that dude, man, I'm telling you, he's one of the best teammates I've ever had.

[Bill Simmons]

So the worst teammate you've ever had is Justin?

[Justin Termini]

Oh, that's fine.

[Eddie Johnson]

I didn't have any bad teammates. Worst teammates. But I'll tell you this. And he's not here anymore. And so.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank God.

[Justin Termini]

So let me crap on the guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Stop listening.

[Eddie Johnson]

I crapped on him when he was alive, and I even crapped onto his face because he was just a surly guy. But Quinton Daley, like Quinn Daly, was an unbelievable basketball player. He scored 15 points in eight minutes, but he was just always in a bad mood. He was just moody, and it just bothered me. And he and I, we butted heads all the time in Seattle, man, when he was there. But he might have been the most surliest teammate I've ever been around. But you wanted him in the game because he could score quickly, and that was fascinating about him.

[Justin Termini]

On an unrelated note, by the way, Bill, he just surpassed Larry Bird as my favorite player in NBA history.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, for the East. Snubs. If you want to call them snubs. They took four guards, three forwards, really no center. And the one that jumped out to me was Maxi. But I also wouldn't have put him ahead of Garland, Dame, Hero, or Cade. So I was. I was actually fine with the entire east team. The 12 guys they landed on, I thought were the 12 All Stars. Do you have a counter?

[Eddie Johnson]

What.

[Justin Termini]

What about your guy, Jalen Brown? Now, I know it's hard to Find another front court guy. But I, I mean, I. Here's why I think Jaylen Brown's worthy is I actually do think, like the year before, you got to take that stuff into account, like reward winning from it. And I do that. You know, people don't agree with it. I think it factors into the MVP race. How many times can you vote James Harden the MVP when he falls flat in the postseason? Every year, then he comes back, he dominates the regular season. But so I, I see like rewarding Jalen Brown for what he did last year. I don't think Jaylen Brown's played in an All Star level this year, do you?

[Bill Simmons]

I 100% do not. And I gotta say, I was a little surprised he made it. But I also understand why they made it because of the, the. Whatever the winning attitude was with how the selections happened this year. I think they wanted two Celts. I think if you weren't watching game to game and just looking at the stats and, you know, the fact that he's been durable, I think, I think people like us that have watched a lot of the games, like, man, he hasn't played that well for a month.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, Eddie and I have done like the stats on this and it's something. I don't have them in front of me. But if you go through like Basketball Reference and look at all the numbers amongst the eight rotation guys, meaning the five start, plus Horford, plus Hauser, plus Peyton Pritchard, he's like dead last in a lot of the field goal percentages. Yeah, he's dead last in, like the three point percentages. He's dead last in all the advanced analytics. It's been a tough year. You just hope that it flips once you get postseason.

[Eddie Johnson]

But, but here's the thing. Does it carry forward? Yes, it does. Dude was MVP of the conference finals and MVP of the finals.

[Justin Termini]

That's why I'm agreeing with.

[Eddie Johnson]

He's making. Yeah, he's. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not paying the All Star team. I mean, that's all we've had. Some great players didn't have great years, but he won a title last year. He's got those two accolades. It's going to be hard to keep him off an All Star team now. And.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the bigger thing is there was no guy that. Oh, my God. Like, I think if Jalen Johnson had been healthy the whole year and was healthy now, I think he would add a real chance.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, I would agree with you there. I think he would have given him a Run for his money. I'm happy Garland made it. I think Cleveland deserved three on that and I truly do. I think it was even between he and, you know, and Donovan Mitchell in my estimation. I'm happy for Mobley because he could have been the odd man out. So he had.

[Bill Simmons]

I felt like he. Mobley had to make it.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, like.

[Bill Simmons]

But to me, Mobley and Jaren Jackson were non starters. They had to be in the team. The two way stuff they're doing on really good teams.

[Justin Termini]

And I feel good for Hero because that's been a mess down there and I He's on the trade market every year. Like talk about like Miami and the way they treat their stars and all these guys are pointing like Paul Pierce is pointing to like the way they treat Jimmy Butler. How about the way they've treated Tyler Hero every single year he's on the trade market and they're just like putting him out. We'll trade you for Dane. We'll trade you for Donovan Mitchell. We'll trade you for. For Kevin Durant. And I never viewed him as an all star and for him to make it, I think that's huge. So I feel good for him.

[Eddie Johnson]

It helps Miami too. It really helps Miami that Tyler Hero made it because it kind of justifies that. Why they changed their offense and kind of went away from Jimmy as much.

[Bill Simmons]

As they used to, especially at crunch time. Which I think was the thing with Jimmy. I like if you watch Miami, basically everything last three minutes was revolving around Hero. And I don't know if Jimmy was a giant fan of it but.

[Justin Termini]

And think about what that says about Bam. I don't even think anybody's looking at Bam and saying that he's a snobby just hasn't been good this year at all.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know what that's the big. I mean that goes to the. You guys have talked about this a bunch, but the post Olympics, what happened to some of these guys? Why did it take so much out of them? Bam's the weirdest one because his offense just went sideways. We had to take a break and then I want to talk about the Butler trades and the Fox trades and what we think is going to happen sometimes in basketball. 30 points could be worth more than 30 points. Now you can get a 30% profit boost from the ringer with FanDuel's 30 on 30 during Friday's NBA action. That's right, the ringer. Teaming up with America's number one sportsbook to give you a 30% profit boost when you either pick a player to score more than 30 points or bet on our new exclusive 30 on 30 special markets like any game tab both teams to score 30 plus points in the first quarter. I talked to Fando about this. I thought we needed some sort of gimmick and it's been super fun. And for this week, coming off the All Star Game, you gotta go with the snubs. You gotta go with Tyrese Maxey, you got to go with Zach Levine. Anybody who even has like a mild case they might have made the All Star Game and didn't make it, they always get revenge the next game. So ride with those picks. Make your own. Look for 30 on 30 in the FanDuel Sportsback book app or head to FanDuel.com BS for your chance to score a bigger payout this Friday. Don't miss your chance to find out how much 30 can be worth. FanDuel's 30 on 30 must be 21 plus. Present in select states are 18 plus and present in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail], get them problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by US Bank Earn up to 4% cash back on every purchase with the US Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. Start by earning unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Then earn up to an additional 2% cash back when you pair your card with a US bank smartly savings Account, have qualifying balances and deposit your rewards into a US bank account. Visit usbank.com smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issue of this card is U.S. bank National association pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply. This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Ridley Scott's return to ancient Rome and Gladiator 2 is nothing short of awesome. And now you can stream it at home on Paramount. Years after the death of Maximus, Lucius is forced into the Coliseum after his home is conquered by a tyrannical twin Roman emperors. With the future of the empire at stake, he must find strength and honor to return the glory of Rome to its people. Gladiator 2 now streaming on paramountplus.com rated R. So we talked about Jimmy Butler before and it seems like Golden State we're taping this. It's 6:00 Pacific Time right now. Thursday. Seems like Golden State's gonna be the team if there's a move, unless there's some surprise, out of nowhere team. And I was looking at impossible trades and I think Wiggins has to be in it. Cause there's gotta be some sort of fat salary. And it's either Wiggins or Draymond. I just don't think they're gonna trade Draym. That he just. I just think that Steph, that's Steph's guy, that's just like, he's. He's over here. You can't touch him. But it would have to be Wiggins. I think it has to be Schroeder because he's an expiring. And then there's a Kaminga piece to it where Kaminga, if Golden State doesn't want to pay him, and it could potentially be Wiggins, Kaminga and Schroeder and maybe like whatever else, little small thing needs to come in. So there's two separate questions here. Is that a lot to give up for a guy who's been unhappy for a year? And then also if you're Miami, you might actually be pretty good down the stretch if you turn a guy who's not really playing at all into Wiggins, who's looked really good the last couple of weeks and most of the season. Kaminga coming off the bench and then Schroeder at point guard.

[Eddie Johnson]

It's a lot. I just think it's a lot. I think Jonathan Kaminga could be the next Butler. Who knows? I think he's just that good. I just think he's raw still. I think he touched sometimes gets out of character of what he is at this present moment.

[Bill Simmons]

But would you pay him? Because you're going to have to pay him next summer. So what's he worth?

[Eddie Johnson]

Yes, I think he's that good, man. I do. I think from the look, think about it, from how he's had to evolve as a player. Like with Steph and Klay, you know, you're not taking shots early in the shot clock. You're not trying to dribble it up on the break and be creative. You couldn't do all of that. You can get a little bit of it done now because Klay's not there. But just based on what I've seen from him this year, I just don't think they want to give him up. And if they do, I think it's going to pay a price because Butler's what, I mean, what, three years, maybe four at the most left. And you got a young player in Kaminga. I think Miami, if they could do that deal, they jump all over that.

[Justin Termini]

But what's the point of keeping Kaminga if you're not going to play him or if you're going to yank him around? Like, Steve Kerr's done? Like, if he doesn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Or if you're not going to pay him.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, if you're not going to pay him. And then, like, the, the flip side with Wiggins, though, is I wouldn't want Andrew Wiggins. If I got to pay him $30 million this year, I got to pay him 30 next year. I got to pay him 30 after. After that if he picks up the option. Like, I'm not crazy about Andrew Wiggins because to me, he just, like, you know, it's the same reputation he had, you know, when he came into the league. He just floats in and out of games outside of the 2022 title run. I mean, Steph doesn't have a number two. And that's the other thing is, I, like, I don't agree with what's going on, Bill, in Phoenix, but at least, like, I don't think it's going to work. At least they picked a direction. Like, at least they know what they want to do. Golden State's like, all right, well, we want to be in with Kaminga for the future, but we want to be, you know, we want to compete right now with Steph, like, either go all in or just blow the thing up and start the rebuild. I don't agree with, like, there's no blow up, though.

[Bill Simmons]

They don't. Kerr is the only real trade asset they have. I don't know what else. What the other move is. They almost got marketing. They almost got Paul George, and they're probably thanking their lucky stars. Neither of those trades happen because they would have given up everything.

[Eddie Johnson]

They're being fooled right now. I believe that's what it is. I think they beat Oklahoma City and then all of a sudden they think, oh, man, all we need to do is just add something. So they have a conundrum right now, and the only reason they're going to keep winning games like that is because of the coaching of Steve Kerr, because of the greatness of Steph Curry. That's why. So they'll beat good teams and you'll start to think, oh, okay, maybe. Maybe we add somebody. I think it's a mistake. I do. I've said that. I think it's a mistake. I know Curry will never give in to being traded, but I just think it's a mistake. I think their Run is over with this group. And, you know, but again, I think that they're going to win some games, man, they're going to beat some teams and you're going to say maybe they can do it again because they did it a couple of years ago. So it's not like they don't reach back to something and say we've done it before. And I think that's part of their problem.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but the problem is in 2022, when they did it, the league was completely different. I just don't think the league was nearly as good. There was some injury luck with some teams that went sideways and they kind of snuck in. They rode Curry, who I think was at a slightly different point in his career too, in 22 versus now, I think that 22 team would not be able to do that in 25 with how deep the league is and how good it is.

[Eddie Johnson]

I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

I, I'm torn on it because, Justin, you remember in the, in the early 90s with the Celts when we had the big three and the question was always, how long do we keep these guys? Well, we can't trade. We gotta keep these guys together. They won titles for us. And the Celts were able to rebuild on the fly a little bit with Reggie Lewis, who was a godsend. Brian Shaw, Dee Brown, they had Ed Pinkney and they had this cool young old thing. And it was pretty good. Like they weren't going to win the title, but they were in the mix. Like they, you know, they had two really good seasons and then Bird and Mikhail's health just couldn't hold up. I don't even think the warriors are close to that level, you know, so if I'm them, it's either a question of do we owe this to Curry because we're never trading him. So if you feel, if you feel that way, then you got to do the Butler deal and give up whatever and try to hope that you catch lightning in a bottle with him. Or you got to think about trading Curry, and I just don't think they're going to do it.

[Eddie Johnson]

I got a question for you. I got a question for you, Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Eddie Johnson]

So say if Golden State had two players in front of them to trade for Derrick White or Devin Booker, who you think they want?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Devin Booker, he's better basketball player.

[Eddie Johnson]

But why you? Why? I saw something where you had Derrick White being a better trade chip.

[Bill Simmons]

Nah, I had Devin Booker in the top 20. He was not. You saw the wrong thing. See, this is. You get fooled by social Media.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, I just want your Twitter replies. Explain to me. Okay.

[Justin Termini]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

I had Devin Booker in the top 20, of course.

[Justin Termini]

Now back to your other point. Before Eddie gave you some bad information.

[Bill Simmons]

Classic fake news for many.

[Eddie Johnson]

Hold up. Put the camera back on. Justin Termini. How dare you say that. The only reason I brought it up is because somebody told me that's what was said.

[Justin Termini]

That's not what I said.

[Eddie Johnson]

I told you where Devin put.

[Justin Termini]

No, I didn't.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't.

[Justin Termini]

I said he was behind Derek White. I might as well have just said Bill's a massive move.

[Eddie Johnson]

Said he was behind. You said you were behind him.

[Justin Termini]

Muscled mo's.

[Bill Simmons]

I had him number 16. I did have him. Behind Jalen Williams and Cade Cunningham. I did have behind Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson. I think that's fair.

[Eddie Johnson]

Jalen Williams really do your.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Jalen Williams on a rookie contract? Like, would you rather pay Jalen Williams 9 million a year? That's the whole point of a trade asset.

[Eddie Johnson]

So it's not about talent.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's about talent. It's about time of their career. It's about the salary. It's all those things. It's basically you're telling me Phoenix wouldn't rather have Jalen Williams on a rookie contract than Devin Booker for 50 million a year. That's. There's no way.

[Justin Termini]

It's the same exact thing between you and Eddie. Serious thinks you're more talented, obviously, but you would cost them more money. So they settle for Eddie because he's making a lot less money.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, what makes you think that you would be the host and he would be the analyst?

[Justin Termini]

Well, I'm not. Because.

[Eddie Johnson]

Because I'm a lot cheaper or both. Cheater. Hey, Bill, you see the ego on this crazed animal? Like he put you in the analyst seat.

[Justin Termini]

Well, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It'S the water boy show. It's two water boys wait on Golden State. Really quick. Let's say Butler goes back there. Let's say they. Let's say they get a 50 cents, 40 cents of the dollar. Let's say it's just Wiggins, Looney and Schroeder and some protected pick and that's a trade. Miami's like, please take them. Give him away. And Butler flips the switch like he's done a couple times this year to show everybody he still has it. Does that team intrigue you at all or is that just only because at least we'll make the playoffs?

[Justin Termini]

Like. No, it intrigues me a little bit. Not necessarily just because they're great Just because who in the west is dominant? Like how much faith do you have in Oklahoma City? As good as they are, we've never seen him win more than one playoff series. Shane Gildas Alexander is still like a young guy who, as great as he is, hasn't really given us anything tremendous in the postseason. Is check going to be healthy? You know, teams with size have beat him up. Dallas has their number. The Lakers, I think aren't as talented. They match up well. So anything is possible. But I think it's just because of the weakness of the Western Conference. I don't know what you guys think.

[Eddie Johnson]

I think the west is wide open. I do. You got your talent at the top, but I think anything can happen. So that's why I think the teams in the west are going to be try to be aggressive in the following week before the trade deadline to see if they can get that key player.

[Justin Termini]

And Bill, you touched on this with Goldsberry a couple of weeks ago. I don't this topic of the west being better than the east, that is not the case this year. The Eastern Conference is better because the teams at the top are better. Boston, Cleveland, New York are three of the top four teams I think in the entire NBA. There's one in the Western Conference, okc. So Cleveland, New York, Boston have to go through each other. OKC doesn't have to do that. East is tougher than the West.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I look at it like ceilings, like your regular season ceiling versus your playoff ceiling. So I see a team like Houston and I'm really impressed by them. I like a young team, kind of. Kind of a weird collection of assets. They barely have even one all star, but when you watch them, it makes sense together. I don't know if there's another gear for them. If they're playing the same team six, seven times in two weeks. I think they'd be. They'd get easy. When you. But when you think about like Boston, Cleveland, especially the Knicks, there's another level. I feel like they can go the question for me with OKC because I think everybody's going to defend them the same way. They're just going to trap Shay, they're going to send two guys at him. They're going to put the. They're going to make Jalen Williams and some of these other guys basically have the ball in big moments. A lot like how people are defending the Celtics. The smart teams of the Celtics are trapping or trapping Jason at the top. They're sending two guys at him they really want like Jalen Brown to decide the games now because he's not playing that well. And I just don't know if Jalen Williams can win four straight playoffs in a row for you. And how is Shea going to figure out how do I be regular season Shay, when I'm just seeing this constantly? So I think the west is open, is my point.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, Oklahoma, I think Oklahoma City is vulnerable because they're small. Even if they bring Chet and they have Hardenstein, I still say they're small because they're going to play small ball. Even with those guys, they're going to rotate to small guys. And I just never see that really working in the Finals. The Celtics people looked at them. They weren't small. Jaylen Brown looks like a mini Hercules. People see these dudes up close, they'll see how big they are. And so it's a different animal. But you brought up Houston. I'm telling. I don't think Houston's getting out of the west to the Finals, but I would bet money that Boston wouldn't want to see them if they were on the other end of that, because the one team I think matches up with them with physicality and a nastiness is Houston.

[Justin Termini]

Plus, you saw Udoka the other day, knows all the weaknesses. I mean, they're tagging Jalen Brown, and he knows what Brown can do. He knows how to defend Tatum and. And, you know, so that's another thing in that matchup.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree with that. Well, there's the Clippers game, I think, unfortunately, was a bad game for the Celtics long term because the Clippers coaching that game was so smart. They basically laid out the blueprint or reminded everybody. The blueprint.

[Eddie Johnson]

What is unreal?

[Bill Simmons]

Celtics and Van Gundy was amazing that both of those guys. And now, like, Houston was basically doing a lot of the same stuff that the Clippers did in that game. And if you have big swings, you can protect the rim a little bit and you just keep blitzing Tatum and making everyone else beat you. It's. I. Basically, what it's going to come down to is, can Jaylen Brown get back to where he was last year? Because last year we were arguing about 1a, 1b with Tatum and Brown. It's. That argument's over. Like, it's 1, 2, and we need. Can Jalen get back to 1B?

[Eddie Johnson]

He will. I think that. I honestly believe, Bill. These guys aren't built to get deep and go repeat, repeat, repeat like it used to be. Right. It's just something that the guys in the 80s and the 90s had that. These guys just don't have. And it's not all their fault. They make a ton of money, man. Even guys in the 80s and 90s, they had to push because they needed more money. Like, they weren't even paid highly. Like, so they had a reason to go for it every year. They. They needed that playoff money. Like, these guys don't need the playoff money. And so they have to be pushed. And I think what's going to happen with Boston is when it gets after April. I mean, not April, March, and they can see the end of it. We're going to see the Boston team that we saw last year. I think Jalen's going to ramp it up. Tatum's going to ramp it up, because now they can see the end. So I am not down on Boston. Haven't been all year. I've made excuses for him because. And think of that. I'm making excuses for teams you all love.

[Bill Simmons]

We're not down on him either. I'm just.

[Justin Termini]

No, I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

So we're concerned.

[Justin Termini]

As far as the fatigue, I don't even want to hear that as an excuse because I was so anti all those guys going to the Olympics. Then they had to do Abu Dhabi. So that's not, like, shocking to me that they're struggling. But I hated the fact they went to the Olympics. That's why I can't stand the Olympics. And then. I know you love them, Bill. I hate them because I think, you know, I don't care.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a patriot, Justin. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I care about my country.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Justin Termini]

I care more about the Celtics and my NBA teams and Denver and Yokich doing well. But, no, it drives me nuts. Like, Philadelphia fans should be irate that Embiid's not playing well.

[Bill Simmons]

That's so.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. But the thing that calms me the most is, like, what other team can give you what Porzingis is doing right now? So, like, as bad as other things are going, like, I was at that game last night, porzingis, you know, 34 points. I think he had 29 in the first half. If he's playing anything close to the level he's played at the last couple of weeks and stays healthy, to me, they're still easily.

[Eddie Johnson]

Word, keyword, healthy. Keyword healthy.

[Justin Termini]

That's for every team.

[Eddie Johnson]

I mean. No, I do. I mean, for him, I'm saying, yeah, if he's healthy, they are a major problem. So for him, it's just staying healthy and how they use him.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what if I, what if I said this to you? The 2025 champion will come from the East.

[Eddie Johnson]

I can, I can push back a little bit on that. Because what I can say is as what you all used to say about the west, it was top heavy. They had a lot of talent. And so by the time they got to the finals, they were tied.

[Justin Termini]

Fatigue. Yep.

[Eddie Johnson]

With the east right now and those three teams at the top. And just say, for instance, say, for example, Philly gets healthy. Okay. And they win a first round series. Right. And all of a sudden it's a problem.

[Bill Simmons]

We're back in the matrix.

[Eddie Johnson]

I'm just making a point.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. Just say Philadelphia pushes Boston or Cleveland to like six games when typically it would be a sweep in the first round. Then you got to go play that.

[Eddie Johnson]

The winner series just. They pushed him.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. Say, for example, they end up like, you know, playing the Celtics in the first round, like Boston plays Philadelphia. They got to go six games when typically that's four or five. Then they got to play New York. That goes six or seven. Then they got to play Cleveland six or seven. Meanwhile, Oklahoma City's cruising through the West. They're a little beat up. I mean, we've.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, what you just laid out was the reason the Lakers won all those titles in the 80s, because they never had to play anybody. The east was just killing each other. And the Lakers were like, ah, we got to play the spurs in the western finals.

[Eddie Johnson]

Oh, they had to play some things. Stop, stop.

[Justin Termini]

Oh, no, they didn't have to go through the Pistons, you know, through the.

[Eddie Johnson]

Sixers, because they were talented. They were. The Lakers were a talented team. They were a dominant team just like.

[Justin Termini]

And so were the Celtics. But then they had a hard road to get there.

[Eddie Johnson]

Just like the Bulls were a domina team in the East. But it was teams that were good.

[Bill Simmons]

In the east, people.

[Eddie Johnson]

It was teams that were good in the east when the Bulls were running through the east, when LeBron was running through the East. You always don't want to give.

[Justin Termini]

That's actually not true credit because they ran Eastern Conference.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's your worst point you've made.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yes, there was things that were good.

[Bill Simmons]

Because that was a Runway to the Finals.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, because he was dominant.

[Justin Termini]

It was more impressive that the Celtics in the 80s went to four consecutive Finals than LeBron in the Eastern Conference.

[Eddie Johnson]

Going dominant in thousands.

[Justin Termini]

He was dominant.

[Eddie Johnson]

He was dominant.

[Bill Simmons]

Those 80s Lakers had two rivals, both of whom flamed out immediately. The 86 Rockets, who were the absolute all time Kryptonite team for them and that team implodes with drugs. And then the Mavs, that same era, Roy Tarpley stays healthy and they actually have to go through those two teams that lay the. The. As you know, I hate the Lakers. The luck that they had in the 80s was unbelievable with the, with their opponents.

[Eddie Johnson]

How do you live in LA and you hate? How do you live in LA and you hate.

[Bill Simmons]

I've come to grips with it a while ago.

[Eddie Johnson]

That's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, you know, there's a lot to hate.

[Eddie Johnson]

That's like living in a 10,000 square foot house. But you hate the girl and she look like a 10. I mean, really. I mean, come on, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I would lean toward the east for, to produce our champion, but I'm also not tied to it for a bunch of reasons. One, all the stuff you laid out about how competitive it's going to be. But two, there's still some west teams. I'm not crossing off Denver at all. I know they've had a goofy year. I'm just not crossing them off yet because of how good Yogic is. I'm just not.

[Justin Termini]

I mean, I essentially, you know what? Like, I'm a little higher than I was on him a couple of weeks ago, but like, everybody's making a big deal about Jamal Murray all of a sudden waking up. I mean, he's been better than he was at the beginning.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been definitely 100% better. We talked about him a month ago on your show and I was terrified that.

[Justin Termini]

But he. Yeah, but he's also not like a high level. Number two. He's playing okay.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but he's playing better.

[Justin Termini]

He's playing better, but he still needs to be better. I mean, he's making a max contract.

[Eddie Johnson]

All right, Justin Term, you say he's not a high level, but when they won the title, was he high level?

[Justin Termini]

Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

27 a game.

[Justin Termini]

So I thought he was better during the week. Kyrie was during the.

[Eddie Johnson]

He could become high level then, hopefully.

[Justin Termini]

But we haven't seen it for a couple of years.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, but we're seeing it now and I think again, like I said, not.

[Justin Termini]

To a high level. He's been better, but he hasn't been great.

[Eddie Johnson]

But he's been pretty good. He's got, he's got 30 plus games left. So my point is where he is right now and how he's trending. He's getting back to himself.

[Justin Termini]

I hope so.

[Eddie Johnson]

And I. And Bill, I've never gotten off the bandwagon with Denver. He knows. Justin knows this. I, I'm not. I. They have too much talent. You all a couple of years ago said they had the best starting five in the basketball and they still got those same guys.

[Justin Termini]

No, they don't.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, they don't.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they turn Brown. Brown's actually probably better than.

[Eddie Johnson]

It doesn't matter.

[Justin Termini]

They took away from the bench. When they like people go like, oh, they got rid of.

[Eddie Johnson]

Now you're going back to the Christian.

[Justin Termini]

Christian Brown's better. Well, Christian Brown has to go in the starting lineup, which takes somebody off their bench.

[Eddie Johnson]

Justin, I hear what you say about the bench. I'm not arguing that. But Christian Brown is a better player than Kentavious, Caldwell Pope and he's showing it.

[Justin Termini]

That's fine. But he was on the bench. So now the benches.

[Eddie Johnson]

They're starting five is just the same five and better right now. The bench has to get better. I agree. But the starting five that won a title, they're the same guys.

[Bill Simmons]

The league is better and not the. I mean I just think it's. It's so admirable for the, the very small market Denver Nuggets to patch together this team when they have so many finite. Oh no, that's actually. Denver's a big city. My bad.

[Justin Termini]

And. And they're owned by like a very.

[Bill Simmons]

Owned by guy who's married to the Walmart family. And somehow they can't get like a 9th or 10th man.

[Justin Termini]

And they're trading three second round picks just to get rid of the contract they signed Reggie Jackson to. So now they have no assets to get better. So even if Jokic was whining like Anthony Davis or LeBron, they couldn't do anything about it because they have nothing to trade.

[Eddie Johnson]

All he needs.

[Justin Termini]

So congratulations.

[Eddie Johnson]

All Jokic needs is to get to the finals and does not have to play against Karl Anthony Towns who owns his lunch.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, stop it. Yeah. No, that's ridiculous.

[Eddie Johnson]

He can't even score on Cat. Cat locked him down twice.

[Bill Simmons]

Stop.

[Eddie Johnson]

He locked him down.

[Justin Termini]

Took him out of the.

[Eddie Johnson]

He had pedestrian numbers. Carl. Anthony Towns is watching him.

[Justin Termini]

Way to watch the game last night.

[Eddie Johnson]

Lock him up.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I ask you guys about one west team? Is it. I'm going to whisper this one. Clippers. Is there something there? It's a playoff team. If Kawhi. If Kawhi can actually start to look like.

[Eddie Johnson]

I saw him the other day. I saw him the other day. He did a few things in that game that made me say if he's back to that. I mean, he pushed the Ball up the court. And I mean, he looked fast, just laterally, like that's what I'm looking at. And they're afraid to play him. And I get it. They took him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's on a 28 minute. 28 minute limit and it's like 20 minutes, you're out.

[Eddie Johnson]

They did. I was glad they did because, you know, who knows, we might not have beat him the other night, but no, he looked good, man. That's all I'm gonna say. He looked, but he's done this before.

[Bill Simmons]

Justin, they have Zubots who's turned into. Not an all star center, but he was maybe in the borderline. Harden and Powell.

[Justin Termini]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Kawhi, all these role players and I think they have a top three coaching staff.

[Justin Termini]

Exactly. You mentioned just about everything they can defend with the best teams in the NBA. Ty Lue, to me, you want to say, like, Eric Spolzer is the best head coach. All right, well, Ty Lou's right on his heels. I think he's the second or third best head coach in the sport. So you're right there. I mean, a lot of us in the media are going to look like absolute morons if they make a deep run because we crushed them. But yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if they made a run either.

[Bill Simmons]

See, Justin cares about that more than we're not going to bat a thousand. We're going to get some stuff wrong. There was no sign, none, that the Clippers were going to be a possible playoff.

[Eddie Johnson]

You were worried about Kawhi, but also.

[Bill Simmons]

They lost Paul George, who was important for them, and they replaced him with a bunch of dudes. And it's like. And then when you watch them, the team makes sense. Derrick Jones is a really good ad for them.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, he really is.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, and then you think like Kawhi comes in, all he's doing is taking Batum's minutes and some Terrence Mann minutes. It's like, this is legit. Even if he plays 25 minutes a game. Harden, I still feel like the right teams can take him out because he doesn't have the same burst that he did. Like, if he's going against like a Houston or a Memphis, like teams with young big wings that they can throw at him, I think it's hard for him to get his shots. But. But I'll tell you another thing that's. And I've talked about it before, but they have. Eddie, have you done a game at Intuit yet?

[Eddie Johnson]

Oh, yeah, two.

[Bill Simmons]

They have three games. Borderline home court advantage now which is they never had anything before.

[Eddie Johnson]

They got off to a slow start and I think it's just them getting familiar with their own court. But since then they've been pretty good. I think they've only lost what they lost four games early and they've only lost four games since. No, that is a tremendous advantage. That wall is, is ridiculous.

[Justin Termini]

I mean, you did, you did, you did see LeBron Airball a free throw, I think with, you know, the wall there. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Yeah, no, I, I think that team's really interesting to me at the spurs if they got Fox, which we should talk about. Just what I just, I want to watch this next two wimy months because they're 20 and 24 right now and somehow they're only five games out of five. Well, that's the thing. It's probably a lot of picks actually. Let's talk about that. We'll take one more break. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. In basketball, a blockbuster trade can make or break your playoff run. Before the deadline, GMs across the league scour for the right data and insights, hoping their moves pay off February 6th trade deadline this year. By the way, just like in basketball, growing your small business in 2025 all comes down to how well you can build your team. That starts with better insights from LinkedIn with unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. LinkedIn has the strongest hiring data and insights to help you identify the right professionals so you can make the best hiring decisions. LinkedIn pairs you with the high quality candidates you need to make your business grow and flourish. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. Who isn't? That's a big pool of people you don't want to miss out on. And who knows, one of them could be your next All Star player. So hire smarter in the new year. Find your next Great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons Once again, LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Pepcid Complete. We all know that one of the best parts of game day is the food. On Sundays, nephew Kyle comes over. Sometimes we'll get healthy. We'll get some salads. Sometimes we'll get a little ambitious. We'll get some sandwiches. It's always the best part of my food week. Well, until heartburn strikes Then it's not as great. You get heartburn from time to time. Gotta watch out. You don't want to be rolling around in bed all night. Thankfully, Pepcid complete starts to work instantly. It lasts all day. Just one great tasting chewable tablet provides dual action heartburn relief with an antacid that starts working instantly and an acid reducer that lasts all day. So you can stay focused on that second sandwich, that second second helping, a salad, not heartburn. Visit Pepcid.com to shop now all day based on eight hour symptom relief studies during the day. Use product only as directed. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If you want to take control of your finances, Apple Card is where it starts. A credit card that can give you up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. I have one. I can tell you this is true. I know and love Apple Card. So many places I can use it. Especially during a busy time here with football, basketball, the holidays, all at once. I can use my Apple card on tickets to a game, a gift from my dad, or even tickets as a gift for my dad. Plus, anytime there's a new Apple product, it's a lot easier. Apply for an Apple card today. It's easy. Just go to the wallet app on your iPhone again. That easy. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] Darren Fox I was taping a pod on Tuesday with Marcillo and then all of a sudden this trade thing came out and I was like, boy, that's weird. And it's like he has a specific team. Hmm. And then it turns out he wants to go to the Spurs. I haven't talked about this on my pod. I know you've probably talked about in your show, Justin. I had Great career move by De'Aaron Fox. Trying to go to the spurs like this is like trying to join the hit TV show that's gonna be the number one show on TV for the next 10 years. Like it's. I get why he wants to do it. It's pro. They need somebody like him. The question for me is, what is the timetable for the Spurs? Do you even need to do this now? What's the point of it? You have no chance to win a title. Could you? If he wants to play for you this bad, why not just wait till he's a free agent? Why am I giving up stuff for him now?

[Justin Termini]

He's trying to get out ahead of it, right? Because everybody's going to Want to go there. So it's a smart decision by him if that's what he wants to do.

[Bill Simmons]

Because Eddie, if Eddie could still play, Eddie would be like, I'm here, I'll stand in the corner.

[Justin Termini]

Every single player in the league should want that. All the broadcasters, like, you know us, we should want to go down there and cover them and just like, you know, be their play by play guys. Because it's going to be fun for like 15 years where you get to watch that every single night. So like It's Smart by De'Aaron Fox. Now the question is, is it smart by San Antonio to go out there and get him? I mean, is, is that like, what is he 27? So by the time Wembanyama is ready, you know, he's. And I think when Benyama I guess is ready right now. But I guess the other pieces, because you need more than just they're pretty far away. But like, is he even the guy that you think fits in perfectly with him? I mean, he shoots in the low 30s in regards to three point percentage. You know, he's not a particularly high level defender. He hasn't impacted winning in Sacramento. So I don't know if that's like my first De'Aaron Fox.

[Eddie Johnson]

You automatically become a better defender with that dude behind you.

[Justin Termini]

Oh, of course you would be a better defender with him behind you, right?

[Eddie Johnson]

I mean, all you gotta do is stay in. I don't know about that. Come on. And dear and Fox so good at that. But here's where the fit is perfect. And I brought this up the other day when Fox with Sabonis was really good, but the problem is they're both left handed now you're coming off that screen with now Wembanyama. Now he's going off to his right and De'Aaron Fox is to his left. It's a better pass. It's an easier fluid pass. It's all of that. And I think Fox is looking at that as well. A lot of times he and Sabonis kind of ran into each other a little bit because of that dynamic. But now this dude coming off left and you gotta agree he's one of the best guys in the paint in regards to being a guard. And now he's got that size to really initiate stuff to. I think that's one of the reasons why he's looking at it and I think he's the perfect blend for him, you know, and I think even Chris Paul at times has a tough time with that in regards to it. So you know, because Chris is a more like a right handed guy as well. So I think the nuances there man is just. Is going to be really good if he's able to get there.

[Bill Simmons]

Plus Fox was. They were two seeds two years ago. He was the best guy on that team. So it's not like he. Teams haven't succeeded with him. I guess the way I'm looking at it, the risk would be if we don't do this now, what if somebody trumps him? What if somebody else trades for him? What if we lose this opportunity? So then who are the other guys out there? Cause they clearly need somebody like this. They need somebody give him the car keys, let him run shit. And it's like you start looking around the week. Who else is it like, Garland's not leaving Cleveland. Garland was the guy to get last summer. And they, they probably should have tried to overpower them. Do you wait on Hope, Maxi? Hope? Philly just goes so far sideways that maybe they would just want a complete rebuild. You go through all the rosters and he's kind of the bet fit, best fit for what they need.

[Eddie Johnson]

And he probably will never leave because he's from Texas. So he wants to be in Texas. And you want players on your team that want to be in a certain region, especially if it's San Antonio.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. Why would you leave once you get there? I mean, you're going to be winning. You're going to be playing on national television every day.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, okay, but Penny Hardaway left. Penny Hardaway and Shaq broke up. Safar Marbury left Kevin Garnett.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that, that was the worst one. I'll never, I'll never get over that one.

[Justin Termini]

That's right at the beginning of their career, Fox is starting to play in Sacramento, lose a bunch of games, then get hooked up to Wembanyama if he chooses to go there. But you were like rattling off names, Bill. Like, Luke is a free agent. What, two years? All you hear about is Miami. Why is it only Miami that can get these guys?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, he culture. He culture is red hot right now.

[Justin Termini]

Like, but you know, you hear that name linked to Miami. Why can't Luca be linked to playing with Wembanyama?

[Bill Simmons]

That makes Luca look like a loser. Honestly, like, he's just gonna. This is the same. I know, but think of Lennox.

[Eddie Johnson]

You need to stop.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he went to Wade was one of the three best players in the league when he went there.

[Eddie Johnson]

Was the best player on the team until Wade figured it out and stopped trying to do everything the Next year. And they won two back to back. How dare you even bring that analogy up?

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. Wade was. Wade was probably the third best player.

[Justin Termini]

In the league and the best player.

[Bill Simmons]

On the team that in the 2011 playoffs, he was the best part of the team.

[Justin Termini]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

He wasn't chopped liver. He already had a title.

[Eddie Johnson]

And Shaq wasn't top liver either. Wade, don't sniff a finals victory back then if it wasn't for Shaq and Alonzo Moran.

[Justin Termini]

So you all, I, we agree with that.

[Bill Simmons]

That's fine.

[Justin Termini]

But he was still a top five flyer.

[Bill Simmons]

So if you're San Antonio and you can trade for Fox, keep Castle. Cause Castle is just. I'm not even discussing him. Not discussing Wemby. And you can potentially keep Vassell and then you add Fox and I don't care. Take your pick. What picks do you want? Like, I, I would probably do it as long as it wasn't an insane amount of picks. I don't know what these teams are doing with all their picks they can.

[Eddie Johnson]

Keep so high and they need to keep them. And if they can keep him, man.

[Justin Termini]

Atlanta, they have Atlanta's pick right. In the upcoming draft as well. So that's going to get more value because Jalen Johnson's hurt. So yeah, that's even more valuable.

[Bill Simmons]

I really like that Atlanta team too. I thought they were like a six seed kind of range sleeper. And then they just can't get healthy.

[Justin Termini]

I mean, they beat the Celtics twice in Boston. They beat Cleveland.

[Eddie Johnson]

I think he was a snub. Let's just put it where it is. Trey. Trey was a snub. Trae Young was a snub because the way he's played, he's changed his game. He realized he's not Steph. He stopped playing like Steph and he started playing like a point guard. And he's had a very good year, man. And so I think he's a snub in the east as well.

[Bill Simmons]

So is the league more fun if there's a Fox to San Antonio trade this year? I think it is. We basically sacrificed Sacramento as a playoff team and replaced them with San Antonio.

[Eddie Johnson]

What if they get Chris Paul?

[Bill Simmons]

Sacramento?

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If Chris Paul was in the trade.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You think Sacramento could still patch it together? They'd have an older team right now.

[Eddie Johnson]

They're dangerous.

[Bill Simmons]

So why'd you try to trade him? Why'd you trade him from Phoenix? Why'd you sign off on that deal?

[Eddie Johnson]

I wasn't the GM telling you. What do you mean me? Why are you blaming Me remember that.

[Bill Simmons]

Year when Eddie thought Yusuf Nurkic was good? We had to, like, kindly remind him over and over again.

[Eddie Johnson]

Hey, look, guys, obviously, you guys, I have to eat crow because you all can get on me based on what's going on. But I will say this. You know, do you honestly think that he was able to play the way that he can play? Like he's a rebounder? That's what he is. Yeah. He's one of the best rebounders.

[Bill Simmons]

He should be on a lottery team.

[Eddie Johnson]

He's one of the best rebounders.

[Justin Termini]

He might be on the Sheriff, and.

[Eddie Johnson]

That'S what he is. I've never looked at him any more than that. The. The biggest problem for Nurkic, and I hope he improves it, because it seems like he probably will get moved, is he's just gotta make. I don't know what it is. He's gotta find out wherever a Pete Newell protege is, and he just gotta spend a whole summer with him.

[Bill Simmons]

Eddie, he's in his 30s. It's. It's not happening. Give up the ghost.

[Eddie Johnson]

But that's a ground. That's a ground.

[Bill Simmons]

This is too much Nurkage talk already.

[Justin Termini]

Does he talk to you, Eddie, or does he only not talk to boot in the holster? No, he's still talking to him.

[Bill Simmons]

He's already packed. He goes to the Sun's games, and he has all his suitcases in case the trade happens.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, obviously, it's not good when you're not playing and. And you're not talking to the coach. I can't even run from that. It's. It's not. It's not good. But I will say this. He's been very good on the bench over there. It hasn't been a negative.

[Justin Termini]

Let's give him.

[Bill Simmons]

20 million years. They said the bench.

[Eddie Johnson]

Hey, other teams are watching.

[Justin Termini]

He still takes more free.

[Eddie Johnson]

Other teams are watching, in all fairness. So he's doing it the right way. He's doing it the right way.

[Justin Termini]

In all fairness, even though he doesn't play, still takes more free throws than Deandre Ayton.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw that stat. What is he at 1.1?

[Eddie Johnson]

He might go back to.

[Justin Termini]

The thing that ticked me off is Eddie and I talked about that on the show, like, two days ago, and then stat news came out with that.

[Bill Simmons]

Stat news after we talked about that.

[Justin Termini]

They stole it from us.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, he might be back in Portland, guys. You never know.

[Bill Simmons]

Eddie, can we go back to Webby for a second? What year did you enter the league? 85.

[Eddie Johnson]

81.

[Bill Simmons]

81.

[Justin Termini]

The Celtics smartly Drafted Ange ahead of him.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you.

[Justin Termini]

Red arm.

[Eddie Johnson]

Hey, Bill, you noticed that was the worst, worst draft the Celtics ever had. Really was.

[Bill Simmons]

Wasn't great.

[Eddie Johnson]

They had a chance to draft me.

[Bill Simmons]

I remember the story.

[Justin Termini]

They drafted a. She made an all star team. You never.

[Eddie Johnson]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

We messed up the other two picks, though.

[Eddie Johnson]

Cost you. Cost you all another title.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God. Bird would have put Eddie in the hall of Fame. He'd be like Michael Cooper. How about the hall of Fame?

[Eddie Johnson]

Without a doubt. My God, how did this happen, Bill? Without a doubt, he would have.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so you've been in the league since 1981 in various capacities. Have you ever seen anything remotely approaching Wemby in person?

[Eddie Johnson]

No. He's the biggest freak of nature I've ever seen. Now, I used to say that about Marky. I used to say it about Manute Bol, who obviously not the talent that Wemby is, but when you look at a dude like that, and I even said it one time about, you know, Joel Emby, Justin, and I was in the summer league standing next to him and I didn't realize how massive he was.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Eddie Johnson]

But Wemby, no, I've never seen anything like that. I'm serious, man. Look, when you can dunk, he's in the warm up line, dunking, flats footed, right? Like, I've never seen that.

[Bill Simmons]

So when you're on the plane after a game, are all the Suns players and coaches just talking about him for the next half hour?

[Eddie Johnson]

Problem with our plane, they sit way up in the front. We fly one of them big giant monstrosity.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so you're not even near them?

[Eddie Johnson]

Never even see them.

[Bill Simmons]

They don't invite you for the poker games?

[Eddie Johnson]

Never even see him. Nope. Never see him. Isn't that amazing? You can. Isn't that amazing? You can fly on a plane and you never see the players?

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus. Well, in your day, you're sitting in airports.

[Eddie Johnson]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

You're connecting flights.

[Eddie Johnson]

I'm like, please, yes. With the coaches, it was like everybody. Yeah, it's not like that.

[Bill Simmons]

People are coming up to you in the gates. That was such a fascinating era.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It was just eating like McDonald's with a two hour connection in Kansas City. Trying to go somewhere else.

[Eddie Johnson]

Hold it. No. Getting on a Flight 5 in the morning and some guy sitting next to you and he wants to have a conversation. You don't even know who he is.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Are you a basketball player? So we should talk about the Suns because you weren't on Justin's show today. So he didn't get the privilege, pleasure, honor of your reaction to the ESPN story about. About some of the sun stuff. My take, and I've said this before, is I actually think the Suns, the team they built, is a team that really made sense in the 2010s, but the league is just way better now. And that star system which a bunch of teams have, where they have the two really good guys, it just doesn't work the way it did. Like you, you really need seven to nine guys who can be good at all times built around the two. And I don't know how to.

[Eddie Johnson]

They.

[Bill Simmons]

They're kind of down this road now and I don't know how they fix it. I know they freed up some picks, but is this even fixable in your opinion? You're at every game.

[Eddie Johnson]

I think it is. And I've said this time and time again, just watching them all year, they're the biggest problem. It's not the opponent, it's them. And what I mean by it is if you look statistically at the numbers, when they win, if they don't turn it over, and I mean like, you're going to turn the ball over, but I mean like 14, 15, you're giving up 18, 20 points off turnovers. The games, they don't do that. They win the games. They rebound, at least stay close on the offensive glass. They win because they normally outshoot the opponent. Like, we have lost a numerous amount of games this year where we've lost. We've shot 49, 50% and lost. Why? Because the opponent got 18 more field goal attempts. And that is the issue with them. It's like, it's so simple. And we see it. We've seen it over the stretch when they've been winning. We see it over the stretch when they don't turn it over and they rebound. They win and they know it, but they just can't. It just, like last night, last night pretty much had the game under control. Start turning it over. Like, it's just, it's that part that drives you nuts and you know, do I think it's. That's fixable? To me, that's fixable because. Say what you want about Bradley, Bill, and people say he doesn't fit and all that dude playing his butt off, off the bench, man. Like, he literally is trying to defend and he's literally scoring the ball at will, like, and he. And he's obviously one of our most efficient players. So it's that part that drives me nuts calling the game. And you Know, obviously I can't go all crazy, but it's just like I'm watching it and I'm like, dude, just take one more dribble to the right and throw it into the post. Why you. You know, it's just simple things that they get in trouble with. And it's just really. It's like it drives you nuts to watch it at times.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you see, Justin?

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think Eddie hit it on the head with the rebounding, that they might have the worst center rotation. We've talked about this on the. They might have the worst center rotation in the entire NBA. So they can't rebound. That's an issue.

[Eddie Johnson]

So who can rebound now, though? Josh?

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, they have Nick Richards. Yeah, now you got Nick Richards.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like getting Wilt Chamberlain in 1965.

[Justin Termini]

Exactly. I mean, he almost gave you a 2020 game the other day, so it's improved a little bit. But, yeah, rebounding is an issue. I mean, they're one of the five worst defensive teams in the NBA. And I too, agree like, that. It's fixable again, because I don't have much confidence in the teams at the top of the Western Conference outside of Oklahoma City. I'm the moron that picked them to go to the finals this year. Eddie picked him to win the title like straight years. Then he didn't pick them this year. I picked them to go to the finals and lose. So I think it's fixable this year. But the issue I have is long term. You don't win this year, like, say, get Jimmy Butler and rectify it, it's not going to get better next year. It's not going to get the better the year after that, and you're stuck with what you have. So I think like, this year they could still make a pretty decent run, but after that, moving forward, they might be the biggest mess in the NBA. And why did they make that trade for three different picks if they didn't have something aligned up? Like they turned a 20, 31 pick. That's going to be valuable. I thought when they made that deal, okay, well, they know they're going to turn it into Jimmy Butler or some other big piece. They've done that. They don't have anything lined up. But if they. If they don't make a move, Bill, Pretty weird.

[Bill Simmons]

I had the same reaction. You don't do that because they basically turn the $2 bill into, you know, a dollar and two quarters. You don't do that unless, you know you're about to do something, something. So then everybody's like, all right, can't wait to see what it is. Then a week passed.

[Justin Termini]

Like, if you just wanted Zach Levine, you could trade like, say Bradley Beal and attach the 2031 pick. Now, he wouldn't go to Chicago, apparently, but the point is, like, that would get it done, perhaps because that pick so valuable.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, my guess is they're trying to use one of the picks to dump Nurkic on another team, right? So then maybe he's in a three team or a four team trade, whatever. But either way, once you dump him, you have more flexibility to do the next move. And I'm sure there has to be some master plan. But.

[Eddie Johnson]

Me personally, I think that we're a physical player away from really being competitive this year in the playoffs. And that's at the forward position, whoever that guy can be. I just don't think it has to be a guy that's high level guy. I just think it's a guy that rebounds the ball. If we get more field goal attempts than the opponent, we'll win. I will put anything on that. With the scores that we have. If we can rebound and don't allow second chance points and get the same amount of field goal attempts, I think we'll win most games. And I think that's their weakness right now is the rebounding. And if they can shore that up and I'm pretty sure that's what they're trying to do, then I think it helps, that's all.

[Bill Simmons]

Tough one for me because that was one of my best bets heading into the year was Phoenix over 47 and a half. Eddie, you've watched Durant now for almost two years, up close doing every game. Is there anything that stood out that you just had no idea until you're watching him night after night?

[Eddie Johnson]

He's just relentless, man. Like when I tell you he's just relentless, the dude, like, you know, it's never an accident to be that good offensively, right? It's not an accident. I'll just give you all a story real quick. We had a large event and it was at the practice facility about a month and a half ago, and everybody was dressed up and everything. And they had like a little mingle thing going on with the fans and all of that. And they had the baskets down the whole entire night. He was shielded. I was blown away. Like the whole entire night he was over there shooting. You know, people come over and talk to him and all that, but he shot the entire night. And I'm saying to myself, dude, why do you have to keep shooting? Like, we know it's like it's ingrained.

[Bill Simmons]

In him, so it's like something he was doing from like age that's just part of his life every day. Yeah.

[Eddie Johnson]

And, and you know, and the impact. I don't know I, I mentioned it to him yet because I haven't, I haven't, you know, been able to talk to him since then, but it's like that blew me away. Like, it's like that's why this dude is this good offensively. Like, he just, he understands his craft and, and he knows what he has to do. But no, the shot making, man, and watching it from afar and all of that. Yeah. But no, just to see it every day, it's ridiculous, man.

[Bill Simmons]

I keep waiting for signs of slippage with him because he's been in the league for 18 years now. Justin. Yeah. And there's moments when he looks a little stiffer than maybe when you go back and you watch the early OKC stuff and he's just such a crazy freak. Seven foot, just so it's a whiff stiffer. But he has all the same shots and he's so smart at. No, it's almost like what was happening with LeBron near the end when you just kind of know where to go, where to be. You can read everything and you know exactly what your best play is. I don't really see a lot of slippage. I don't know how much longer this goes.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. I, and I. The thing I don't understand is like the talent from like an individual perspective, I haven't seen a drop off. I just don't understand why it doesn't result. Result in, in team success. Ever since he left Golden State.

[Eddie Johnson]

Right.

[Justin Termini]

He goes to Brooklyn. Like you saw him play the Celtics in the first round. He did get outplayed by Tatum in all four of those games.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the second year. The first year though, they had the bad luck, injuries, and that's the big.

[Justin Termini]

What if he was exactly with his foot on the line and all that type of stuff and he was like, they'd probably go on to maybe win a championship because they were facing Phoenix in the finals. They would beat Phoenix and then he goes to, he goes to Phoenix and they've been unable to get out of the second round. They get swept last year. So it's like weird that it hasn't translated team success even though they've, you know, he's played with talented players. I will add something just like an individual story, because Eddie and I crushed him when he went to Golden State. I know you were a little bit easier on him, and I, like, go back and forth with him on Twitter, and I've been, you know, critical of aspects of, like, his career and his decision making, even though he's an amazing talent. We interviewed him last year, and I've had a lot of stars who I'll be critical of. They won't even look at me. Like, Durant comes up and he jokes around about it. We laugh about some of the stuff that I criticized for him in the past, answers every question, jokes around, gives you a high five, says hello whenever you see him. So I just love the way the guy handles himself.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, this is something Eddie said about when we talk about LeBron once, when. When you think, like, when somebody gets to the league, did they maximize whatever the potential of what they could have been? Right. I think LeBron's the best example of this, whatever you thought the ceiling was. And he had the most expectations of just about anybody, and then he hit all the expectations. I think Durant's like that, too. And yet he's always going to have this thing about switching teams, and that's going to become part of the legacy. But what's interesting to me about legacies is just watching Vince Carter, right? He gets his jersey retired in Toronto and in New Jersey. He's in New Jersey for four and a half years. I just don't think anybody gives a shit after a while, right? To even Toronto, where you would think out of any fan base would be the maddest at a player who, like, left, and even they were like, yeah, we don't care. And I. I just think when Durant, when he retires, everybody's like, oh, what's going to happen? Who's going to retire his number? I think he'll get his number retired at OKC and Golden State, and I think his legacy will be fine at.

[Justin Termini]

The rate they do it, they'll probably do it in Brooklyn.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, Brooklyn might. If they're going to do Vince Carter, maybe KD's next.

[Justin Termini]

Exactly. And the Vince Carter one really bothers me. Are they going to, like, give Jimmy Butler a jersey retirement? Are they going to, you know, put a.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe not ruling anything else? The Vince Carter thing, I couldn't believe.

[Justin Termini]

Paul George is upset because he never got a tribute video. I don't know if you saw that.

[Bill Simmons]

He came out and I saw that he tried to force a trade out of Indiana for a year.

[Justin Termini]

Exactly. And you Treat the organization that way. You leave them high and dry and you want to be honored. I just don't understand. There's a reward for handling yourself the right way in the city, and then you'll get the honor. If you leave in a wrong way, then you shouldn't get it.

[Eddie Johnson]

I think people have a forgiving heart, and I think we've had friends in our lives that we probably thought we'd never be friends with them again. And years go by and we kind of get a softer heart and we give in to the temptation of maybe, you know, so you're telling me I'll.

[Justin Termini]

Like you in 20 years? In 20 years, I'll like you then?

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, I mean, well, hey, you do it. You got a lot of people that's been divorced and they still get along. You know, it's just. I just think fans, I think over a period of time, I think they. They just remember the good times and they. And they. And they feel.

[Bill Simmons]

It is funny. It is crazy how that works out. The Toronto thing really blew my mind.

[Justin Termini]

It's like, you can quit on a team and then you can get honored. I don't understand that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I get, like, there were some good times in it, too, but it's. I guess there's a statute of limitations for all this stuff. But back to kd, like, I just think all that stuff washes away. He won two titles. He's one of the best either 15 or 20 players ever, depending on, you know, what your list is. And that's just going to be the legacy.

[Justin Termini]

But 100%, because people only count stuff. Like, you go back in the 1960s, all they do is count 1970s. They just look at basketball reference. They don't look at the context behind anything. So, yeah, it's going to matter maybe to me and you how he won his championship in 50 years. They're just going to count it on basketball reference with absolutely no clue.

[Eddie Johnson]

But I'll just say this, and I've told him this. I was upset that he went there only because I wanted OKC to beat Golden State. That's why I was upset. And I knew him going to Golden State State, he was going to win championships, but Golden State was not beating LeBron if he did not go there. And I think that's what he can carry. And I think Golden State fans know that. So I think, yeah, they're going to retire his jersey. They're going to treat him like a king there because they knew they were in trouble. They knew that they weren't Going to beat that Cleveland team the next couple of years.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think Golden State won 73 games. Curry was hurt that 2016 playoffs in Cleveland the next two years, Kyrie. LeBron got Rocky. Kyrie left. I don't know. Stuff got weird in Cleveland.

[Justin Termini]

And the other thing is, like, I always look at it. If you replace Durant with that, like, I mean, even go back to another Golden State, great. If you put Rick Barry on that Golden State team, they're definitely winning the title. If you replace Durant with Barry. And that's what bothers me.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, even Rick Barry, like in his 60s or Rick Barry.

[Justin Termini]

Maybe Rick Barry even went in his 60s, maybe even then. But definitely, like, during the prime of his career.

[Eddie Johnson]

I'm saying the same thing. I agree it was an automatic win, but they weren't going to have that automatic win. Because if he did not go there.

[Justin Termini]

Maybe, maybe not. But it's just hard. Like, if you took Jaylen Brown, for example, and put him there, they're definitely winning as well. And he's not anywhere close to.

[Eddie Johnson]

And he hit the big shots, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the thing.

[Eddie Johnson]

He hit the big shots to seal those.

[Justin Termini]

There were no big shots. They were winning the series in four or five games.

[Eddie Johnson]

Oh, but he hit the big shots. I mean, he hit the big shots in that series, and so that's the difference.

[Bill Simmons]

But this is the thing. Like, if you just go back to that Klay Thompson game, the sliding doors of it, OKC just beats Golden State, then OKC plays Cleveland in the finals, and it feels like the next nine years of the league is just different. I don't know how it plays out. Like, what if OKC beats Cleveland and then it's like LeBron doesn't get the title in Cleveland. Does he stay in Cleveland until he gets the title? What if. What happens? What happens to Golden State if Durant doesn't go there? Like, they're, you know, I. It's probably the biggest what if of.

[Justin Termini]

This century, and then you view Durant completely different. Westbrook doesn't have to deal with any of the BS that he's dealt with his entire career, so.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, he gonna leave, But. But just look, if Denver wins, it's gonna be Westbrook leading Jokic, so don't worry about it.

[Bill Simmons]

No, of course, this is. Finally, we can all agree on Westbrook at the same time, which I don't know if it's ever happened. I love Westbrook at Yokich.

[Eddie Johnson]

I never gave up on Westbrook.

[Bill Simmons]

I Know you did. I gotta. You never gave up.

[Justin Termini]

I said he should retire earlier this year. And I'm just. I just want to say that I'm glad that Westbrook found a teammate that was smart enough to understand how to utilize him.

[Bill Simmons]

He finally got weirdly bad for LeBron. Eddie, this is like in the Jokic versus LeBron argument. This is not. This is an L for LeBron.

[Eddie Johnson]

Bill. It's easy to say that, but here's what I told Justin last week is like, Jokic is the best. It was the best combination for Westbrook because. Because with LeBron. LeBron handled the ball. Westbrook handled the ball. It wasn't a good mix down in Houston.

[Bill Simmons]

We could have told everybody that before the trade.

[Eddie Johnson]

Handled the ball. It was not a good mix. You know, even when he went to Washington and he played with Bill, Bill was wanting to handle the ball in Washington. Westbrook didn't take off until Bill got injured.

[Justin Termini]

And here was my response. Yeah. And so you're right.

[Eddie Johnson]

It's the best combination because Jokic plays differently than everyone else. Else.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. And so you're right, Eddie. And LeBron should have been intelligent enough to understand that. That he needs the ball, Westbrook needs the ball. And that was LeBron's mistake because he wanted to play with him.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, no, no, no. The ball goes into the King's hands.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the one real nitpick with LeBron is everybody else has to fit towards.

[Eddie Johnson]

And that's. And that's the way it should be. That's the way it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Some of the best players of all time fits.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah. LeBron made a mistake bringing them there. I will say that.

[Bill Simmons]

That.

[Eddie Johnson]

But the ball goes into LeBron's hands. I don't care who's on the floor with him other than Magic or Bird. You can make that argument. Okay, bringing the ball up. I'm saying not in the half court, because then we can argue Jokic. But what I'm saying is ball goes into LeBron's hands. That's just the way it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Also, though, the fact that Westbrook is. Seems like he's like 95% as explosive as he was 12 years ago. An all time favorite freak. Even LeBron like slowed down and got bigger and changed some of what he did. Westbrook seems like he's just like in, like. I don't know, I don't understand it.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Justin Termini]

Even though I said he should retire, I'm happy that he is not because I do love his mental approach. It's awesome. Guy that cares Every single night, as much as he.

[Eddie Johnson]

Well, think about this though. What about Presti? He had three MVPs, okay? And all three of those guys were three of the best conditioned athletes. Now, Harden had his ups and downs, but the one thing about Harden, he played every night and he had to bring the ball up against little dudes. He beat them off the dribble. So his energy level was high as well. But those three guys, kd, Russ and Hart on the same team, you can put them up there with the top energy guys in the history of the game. I mean, I mean, they have been. They persevere.

[Bill Simmons]

I flew to Oklahoma City at the end of 2010 because I just wanted to go to a game. I really liked watching okc and I just kind of wanted to see them before they ascended to whatever was going to happen with them. And I went to a practice and at the end of the practice, they were running the wind sprints and KD and Russ were beating everybody in the wind sprints. And they're like busting each other's ass trying to beat some random day in December in the middle of the season and they're flying back and forth trying to beat each other. And I really think like that, like all those early years where they're competing against each other and Harden's trying to compete against them probably had some weird, you know, carry on effect to the fact that we're in the mid-2020s and all those guys are still on important teams, you know, doing their thing because now they're on their mid-30s.

[Eddie Johnson]

It's amazing. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we go, quick, quick game of. Do you believe. Do you believe in Cleveland as an actual title contender? Justin?

[Justin Termini]

I do. Eddie likes. We've had this debate because Eddie likes the Knicks more than the Cavs. I like the Cavs more than the the Knicks. And you know, I love what we. Here's what we do agree though on Cleveland is we both love that Donovan Mitchell's taken a step back and involved his teammates a little bit more because I thought that was a major issue in Utah. I thought it was a major issue the first couple of years in Cleveland. The fact that his numbers have dropped a shouldn't be an indication of his play getting worse. It's the same exact thing Boston did last year. You look at everybody in that rotation took a step back for the better.

[Bill Simmons]

Sacrifice.

[Justin Termini]

Sacrifice. That's what Donovan Mitchell's doing this year. I absolutely love it and I take them seriously as a title contender. And the other thing that I love is like People wanted to break up Mitchell and Garland and there was even some thought, Bill, that Garland wanted out. Remember last off season?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it was. I don't think it was a thought. I think. I don't know if he was 100% happy, of course.

[Justin Termini]

And then same thing with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Can they play together? Together? They keep them together. And I love continuity. I know you're big on this as well. Like the longer teams stay together, the easy. Like that's why Philadelphia, like this year, I didn't believe in them anyway because it's three guys being thrown together that you knew weren't going to play a ton. Like continuity means something. And now they're at the point where they know each other inside and out. So I take them as a legitimate threat. I have them number two behind Boston in the East.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, no, they're a threat. They definitely are a threat. They're the biggest team, one of the biggest teams in league. And I think Jared Allen, if he can stay healthy, I think he's the key.

[Justin Termini]

Their wings are a concern and I guess how they deal with size is a little bit concerned at the guard position, which is why Boston matches up well against them with Holiday and Caris Laverda.

[Eddie Johnson]

I think off the bench for them. Whether he's off the bench starting, he's going to have to be consistent. Right. And so I think they got enough. Yeah, I do. I think they have enough to offset because they can bother Boston with their size and then I think they just maybe have the same amount of experience as New York. So it's like almost a crapshoot with the two of them. So I think they do have a.

[Bill Simmons]

Chance right now in FanDuel. They're plus 850. They have the third best odds for the title. The Celtics are plus 210. OKC is plus 230. Don't make a Terry Rozier joke.

[Justin Termini]

No, I wasn't going to. I was going to. I'll make a Terry Leger joke. Would you bet on Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson? If you're Terry, would you put money on Jalen Brunson or Donovan Mitchell in a series? Because don't forget, Brunson's beat him twice, outplayed him twice. Once in when Mitchell was in Utah, once he was in Cleveland.

[Bill Simmons]

So my fear, I think the Knicks are really good and you can see them getting better and you know they're going to get a buyout guy and they'll have an eight man rotation, you know, they're all going to play too many minutes and somebody will probably get hurt. But I think the ceiling. I'm really impressed by them, especially offensively. I do wonder with the. With the amount of stuff they're putting on Brunson, how sustainable that is for nine months. That would be my biggest fear if I'm a Knicks fan. He's not a big guy. We just haven't seen teams built around small guards be able to survive for nine months. The only guy that really did it was Isaiah.

[Justin Termini]

Well, don't you. I mean, they killed Becky Hammond for saying the same exact thing, so be careful, Bill.

[Eddie Johnson]

I think it's on Brunson, though. I think Brunson has to be honest with himself, because I think he plays beat up a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it's sustainable.

[Eddie Johnson]

He plays beat up a lot, and I don't think he. I don't think he needs to sit down at times, and I think it's just that mentality of, you know, he shouldn't have to worry about it. But I think if I sit down, something might happen, you know, So I take my minutes. Kind of thought, that's not happening with him. I just think he, you know, he's all wrapped up, man. To be a young player, you just always got something on his body.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, and they got great crafts. But that's why I like Cleveland a little bit more. I like the way they've handled the regular season. They're winning, but you look at their minutes, and everybody's like, 30 minutes and below, like, they're really. They're really kind of pushing toward where.

[Justin Termini]

The Celtics play their guys a lot, the Knicks play their guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, 36 minutes and up for the top two. Do you believe in Zion at this point, Eddie?

[Eddie Johnson]

No. I believe in his talent, but I don't believe that he is capable of keeping himself in shape. And I think that's part of the issue. I've seen a lot of basketball players in my life play in the NBA and always wondered, was that guy better off being a football player or a basketball player? And I still continue to say it. When I first saw Zion in high school and I saw him on the basketball court, I said, that's a football player that's very good at basketball. And I think his mentality is that of a football player, like a lineman or something. We don't have to do a ton of stuff, and for me, I just don't. Basketball seems to not have been his ticket. We all played sports, right? I played baseball. I Played football a little bit, and I was pretty good at baseball, but I reached a point where I said, okay, Eddie, you're six foot six. Six. There's not too many six foot six third baseman. My arm is hurting from pitching. I need to play basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Eddie Johnson]

And I don't know if Zion ever reached that point of having to make the decision. I think automatically he played basketball, and to me, man, I just don't think mentally he's in tune with what it takes to stay on the floor as a basketball player.

[Bill Simmons]

But what's funny about you laying that out, though, is that he came into the league as one of the best assets for the number one pick that we've probably had this century.

[Justin Termini]

We interviewed David Griffin and Alvin Gentry the night they got that pick, like we were there at the draft lottery. Those guys were as happy as could be. And it might end up like it already cost Alvin Gentry his job, and it might cost David Griffin his job. So they were ecstatic about it at the time, but now they might lose their job as a result of him. Gentry already.

[Bill Simmons]

The one thing I've. I've learned a couple things, I guess, following sports and trying to come up with things to say and studying stuff. If the guy doesn't want it, there's not a lot else you can do. And I think you could say that if you're a parent and you have a kid that's good at a certain sport, you can't force the kid to be awesome at the sport. At some point they're going to have to give a shit. And he says all the right things sometimes, but it just doesn't seem like he gets it. And now he's headed toward his mid to. And at some point it's either going to happen or it's not up here. And it just doesn't seem like it's there.

[Eddie Johnson]

And I tell this story real quick and I've said it on our show. I once had this lady traveled all the way from Wyoming with her kid, and that's when I had a training academy. The kid, she shows up. Kid is 6 foot 6, I mean, ripped. 14, 14 years old. And she says, he's gonna be a great basketball player. He's gonna grow. His dad was six'ten and he's gonna grow. So I worked the kid out. He takes 25 jumpers in close. 10ft around the rim. May 1st. Okay, I moved him out a little bit. Five air balls. And so I sit him down on the side and I said, what do you like to do? And he started talking about all the things he likes to do, and he started talking about his instruments and he likes to play in the band and all the that. And not one time did he mention basketball. I looked at the mother, I went over, I said, miss, I'm gonna give you your money back. And I charged her, like, a grand. I said, I'm gonna give you your money back. And I am telling you, if you don't want to lose your kid, you need to let him be in the band. I am telling you, he does not want to play basketball. She start crying, I mean, literally, because she knew deep down I had to grab this lady. She was, like, distraught. And I told her. And then I went over there, took over to him, and I said, son, what do you like to do, band? And so to me, that's like. It reminds me of Zion. Like, he was made to play basketball. They wanted him to play basketball. And I just wonder at times. Times does he really, like, want to play at a high level? And I've said that about numerous guys. It's not just Zion.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, well, that contrasts that to your Durant story. Yeah, Durant probably. Ever since he could hit the 10 foot rim with the ball, he's probably been shooting jumpers for three, four, five hours a day.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah, that's the thing. And I actually think Tatum had. Has this. I think Tatum and Brown has it, too. And maybe it's a good thing that they, you know, they're a little competitive in a good way with each other, but I think they. They come in every year. Like, this year, Jalen got too big, but at least there was intent behind it, right? He's like, I need to. I need to survive the nine months. Tatum always adds stuff year after year. I know, I. I want Jalen to lose a little Justin.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, that.

[Eddie Johnson]

That.

[Justin Termini]

That was my issue with, like, honestly, with Jamal Murray, it's like, did he get paid? Did he win the championship and then take his foot off the gas, like, to the credit.

[Bill Simmons]

He definitely did Brown.

[Justin Termini]

To the credit of Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum. Like, those guys have busted their rear ends. Like, Jaylen Brown, like, again, you said he got maybe too big, but the intention was good. So Jaylen Brown, like, wins a championship, he gets paid. Like the year before Jaylen Brown got paid, he didn't say, I get paid. And, you know, I'm just fine now. Like, Jaylen Brown got the biggest contract in NBA history and then came back and had the best season of his career. One of his mvp, like, that's credit to guys that do that, because I don't think everybody can.

[Eddie Johnson]

You can argue that that's what maybe forced Jamal to not be in shape because he had not gotten paid yet. So he.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a bigger issue with the league than I think people realize guys that have an extension coming and they're afraid to get hurt, so they stop working out all during the summer. There's a list of things like.

[Eddie Johnson]

That messes them up. Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think it just happened to Trey Murphy. I think he started out the season shitty, and now he looks like Trey Murphy again.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah. And I don't think Devin would ever admit it, but the way that he changed his game this summer was a positive for the Olympic team. But I think that mentality kind of cut down that killer instinct that he had for a short period of time. And thinking that, okay, I'm gonna try this on the Suns, too. I'm gonna, like, I won't take a shot in the first five minutes, and, you know, I'll turn it on when I can. And I think it kind of got him in that situation. And lately he's gotten back to Devon, you know, being ultra aggressive. Aggressive. Like, a lot of times they tell you, like, Larry Brown used to always say, you f with the game, it's no f with you.

[Justin Termini]

So. And that's. I agree with Eddie's point. I think that's a really good point that he carried that mindset that he had all summer into the season, and it affected his game. Can somebody tell me somebody that actually benefited from the Olympics this year? Because I think everybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Here comes the anti patriot.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

[Justin Termini]

America. Boo America.

[Eddie Johnson]

You play for your country.

[Bill Simmons]

I do think if I could do. If I was the czar of our Olympic program, I would go 25 and under for the team.

[Justin Termini]

So, yeah, so would I. I wouldn't.

[Bill Simmons]

I just wouldn't.

[Eddie Johnson]

And we'll get our butt kicked every year.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if we would.

[Justin Termini]

You almost got your butt kicked this year with the, you know, the Legends.

[Eddie Johnson]

Exactly.

[Justin Termini]

And y almost beat you by yourself.

[Bill Simmons]

I want, like, people like Ahmed Thompson in the. On our 2020 Olympic team. Like, let's give them the experience, put them on that stage and maybe have like, one or two people over 25, the adults.

[Eddie Johnson]

I would love to see that, Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

I would be so much more excited.

[Eddie Johnson]

To see it, Bill. I would love to see it. I like cheering for the underdog. Yeah, that's exactly what it's going to be.

[Justin Termini]

I cheered for Serbia.

[Eddie Johnson]

Yeah. Why you even acknowledge that?

[Bill Simmons]

Just get a dual passport. Guys, thank you for all the time. This was great. Now I. Now I feel better when I pop on your show. Out of nowhere, when I'm driving around, I just text Justin, hold it.

[Eddie Johnson]

You never asked. It wasn't like we turned you down.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, no, we're not. Well, you did last week. Eddie, he asked us last week. You said no.

[Bill Simmons]

But there was reason you guys could do it last week. I know. No, this was fun. I had a great time. Can listen to you guys every. What is it, four to seven?

[Justin Termini]

Yeah, four to seven. Eastern time, Monday through Friday. And this. I think this is the longest we ever talk to each other for free. Typically, we just talk to each other.

[Eddie Johnson]

No way. Hot dogs. Trust me, Bill. So you're good. You're a good conduit, Bill. Trust me on that.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. Safe travels. Great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on.

[Justin Termini]

Yeah. Farewell.

[Eddie Johnson]

All right. Okay. Take care.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the pod. Thanks to JT and Eddie. Thanks to Kyle and Cerutty and Gahao. As always, don't forget, you can watch the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch before Sunrise on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. The latest rewatchables we did. I will see you on Sunday. We're not going live because there's no football game, but cousin Sal and I are going to have a little super bowl props extravaganza. So that's coming on Sunday. Maybe we'll do some basketball, too. We will see. Enjoy the weekend. Must be 21 + and President. Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.