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The Bill Simmons Podcast
An NBA Scoring Boom, NFL Holiday Picks, 'Landman' Is on Fire, the Return of 'Stranger Things,' and the Future of TV With Kirk Goldsberry, Joe House, Chris Ryan, and Zoe Simmons
03:14:11
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, a crisp, refreshing beer with only 95 calories. And just like some of the best plays we've seen on the court throughout the NBA Cup, Ultra is best served cold. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action. With exclusive prizes and courtside tickets, Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobaltra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@mcglobalcher.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. The Bill Simmons Podcast Brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did two for the money. That is a gambling movie from 20 years ago that has aged beautifully as an unintentional comedy classic. Also a pretty good movie. Pacino McConaughey and it was me and Chris Ryan and Cousin Sal breaking it down. So I'll just give you a heads up because we don't have another podcast till Sunday. Rewatchables next Monday. It's time. We're doing Rocky 2. It's the last Rocky that we haven't done out of the first four. So we did. I think we did 3, 4, 1, 2 and that's probably the right order. I think that's what we did. Anyway, that's coming on Monday. So you have five days to watch that. I have a Megapod coming up because this is my last podcast of the week. We're talking BA with Kurt Goldsberry. We're going to talk NFL picks and some best point guards ever with Joe House. We're going to talk to Chris Ryan about the Philly sports scene and the future of tv. And then, last but not least, my daughter's home for Thanksgiving. And Stranger Things is launching soon and we're going to talk Stranger Things. At the end, she's going to give us a report card. She really just bullied her way into this podcast. I don't know what to tell you. It's all coming up next. We're going to take a break. And then Pearl Jam. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like needing the protection of an offensive guard on the football field, but getting an elementary school crossing guard. Sure, they're both guards, but you can only trust one to keep your quarterback safe when the game is on the line. So don't settle for just any insurance when you can have State Farm like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.
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B
All right.
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A
Kurt Goldsberry is here. He has a new piece on theringer.com today. We're going to nerd it up. I have I want to talk advanced metrics with you and a whole bunch of things. I asked you to come up with a couple trends, things you're looking at things that have jumped out from a basketball slash nerd numbers standpoint. There's been some good nerd numbers this year. I can't wait to go through them. What's your number one?
- [03:13]
C
Well, I think the biggest one, Bill, is that scoring is way up in the NBA. So we're seeing scoring numbers. It's great to talk to you about this because we haven't seen scoring numbers like this since the 1960s before the three point line existed. NBA teams are averaging 117 points per game. Those are crazy numbers up from last year, but definitely up from anywhere this century.
- [03:37]
A
I saw I was looking at some of the assist numbers. There was multiple teams just averaging 29, 30 assists a game, which I thought was was kind of exciting. But so you mentioned the early 60s and I remember debunking the Oscar Robertson triple double stuff from my book because just the way they played back then, they would just kind of run up and down and take shots and nobody could make a shot back then the way they could now. There's a bunch of reasons why scoring's up. I'm going to throw a couple at you. I didn't know you were going to bring this up, but I'm ready. The fact that bigs can all shoot for the most part. We have your occasional Nemi Keda or Deandre Ayton kind of outlier old school center who's just kind of around the room. But for the most part we have these bigs, these stretch fives and just, just more talented bigs. That's one. The pace is up. I think that's two. The pressure Phoenix you wrote about in your piece today, how Phoenix, that's one of the reasons they've been able to unlock their season. Like these teams that are just using 10, 11, 12 guys and trying to pressure the ball 94ft, which Indiana started last year and now I feel like it's a trend. But I also think a big part of that is how much talent we have that teams can go 10, 11, 12 deep down and have the luxury of doing that. So what other than those, are there any other factors you see?
- [04:55]
C
Yeah, like so there in general, like when you look at it long term, the shot selection revolution is the, is the biggest reason. Just every possession is more efficient. But when we look at just what's happened since last year and we have like a 3 1/2, 44 point a game scoring uptick, unfortunately the biggest thing is fouls and free throws I think.
- [05:16]
A
Interesting. Yes.
- [05:17]
C
Unfortunately almost all of the scoring increase is explained by a 3.1 per game free throw made increase for each team in every game.
- [05:28]
A
So that just threw away all my other reasons.
- [05:30]
C
No, I mean if you're looking at.
- [05:32]
A
Say how did we get here?
- [05:33]
C
Like one of the crazy stats I was looking up is the 73 win warriors, one of the greatest teams you and I have ever seen had an offensive rating of 113.5. That would rank 22nd now. Yeah, we've gotten a lot better at scoring in the NBA. That team would, would slot below the, the awful LA Clippers offense right now. So that just tells me that over 10 years, Bill, the average NBA offense is just shooting smarter shots. There's, there's more talent as you describe. But when we look at just why are we so much higher than last year? We're setting records for free throws and specifically certain types of players are drawing a lot more fouls and going to the line more than ever before. And specifically Luka Doncic like epitomizes this trend. I don't know if you were at the Lakers spurs game earlier this year at Crypto, but yeah, Luka is the epitome. He shot less than nine free throws per game last year. He's at 12 and a half this year he's drawing over nine fouls per game himself, which is the highest number we've ever seen in the player tracking era.
- [06:40]
A
Do you think that's because the league rigs the. Rigs the league for the Lakers or are there other reasons? I think there's, there's a few reasons.
- [06:47]
C
I think the league rigs the league for the Lakers, which is hard to say.
- [06:52]
A
So thanks for the extra, extra six free throw attempts per year no matter who's on the team. Just factor that is one thing spurs.
- [06:58]
C
Fans and Celtics fans can clearly agree on. But two things are happening.
- [07:04]
B
I won.
- [07:05]
C
Luca is one of the smartest, hardest players to guard in the league. Like no disrespect to Luka Doncic, he does work the refs. We all know that, but that's not new. I think one of the other trends we're talking about, you sort of alluded it to it with the, with the Suns is teams are playing handsier, more physical defense for longer stretches of the court and throwing more and more guys out there. So I think because of what Rick Carlisle started in the playoffs last year, I think teams are just being handsier. But that said, here's a stat for you, dude. This year there's been 14 instances of a single player drawing 12 or more fouls. That's fouling out two guys on the other team. By the way, last season there was only 23 instances of that all year. Lucas Four of those this year, he never did that once last year. So we're starting to see like single guys like drawing foul. So I do think the foul baiting is a part of this too, Bill.
- [08:01]
A
Foul baiting? I don't think anything with the word baiting in it. Last year, the top seven teams in free throw attempts were all between 23.3 and 23.
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C
Yep.
- [08:13]
A
Memphis led the way at 23.3. By the way, I did not look this up until you just mentioned it. This year we have the. Hold on. I'm going to get this right. This year we have Orlando at 30.7. Jesus, how is this possible? We have 25 teams shooting at least 23.5 free throws per game. So last year we had seven. We're at 23. That's it. We have four teams 28 and above and we, we have 12 teams 26 and above. So there's your scoring.
- [08:52]
C
There's your scoring. I mean, I brought up that game in, in LA for, for a reason that had 66 foul calls, 84 free throws. The game lasted 2 hours and 54 minutes.
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A
Oh my God. So that's.
- [09:05]
C
It is a big. It's the best place to score on the free throw in the basketball game is, is the free throw line, according to D. Smith. So yeah, like that explains the, the general scoring uptick since last year is this. And then. And like one of the other stats I had in the piece was There were just seven teams that committed over 20 fouls per game last year. This year, 29 teams are doing that. So everybody's doing that. And my question to you, Bill, is are these teams suddenly playing more handsy defense or is the rules around contact allowances sort of evolving?
- [09:42]
A
Once again, I think it's pie chart. I would have. Everybody has more good players they can throw out there and they're telling people to pick up full court, be more physical. It's noticeable when you watch all the different games. I remember Doc telling me a couple years ago with the Pacers, before we even kind of noticed what they were doing, he was like, I just. These guards, they pick teams up for 94ft and they're like a pain in the ass to play. And I'm like, man, I never really noticed that. And then I looked for it and I was like, oh, shit. Like, this is really annoying, I would imagine, if you're an opposing point guard. But now you see like, it feels like half the league's doing it. I do wonder though, do we also have with these. Now that we're playing with centers and bigger guys and offensive rebounds, teams like Houston, Detroit, does that also help with the, with the free throw rate too? I don't know. Do you really think like the leagues, like, you got to call this differently, call more fouls?
- [10:39]
C
Well, I know a bunch of coaches about it and I think what you just said about the Indiana guards bears repeating. Because I talked to one coach, he's like, yeah, every year we all watch the finals, it's the first time that all the team's coaches sort of watch basketball almost leisurely because everybody can watch the finals except for two teams. And he said, yeah, like everybody saw what Carlisle was doing. And I think a lot of people did import that into their strategies this season. So I think that's fair. The other thing people were telling me is like the league sent around a bunch of points of emphases about, you know, the high five foul that you might have heard about with shooting fouling a three point shooter, certain rules around driving offensive players and, and how they're going to be called. And some people said, yeah, that's really what this is too. But they've tightened it up and in favor of the offense, in favor of three point shooters and in favor of driving players. So I think that explains it. It's both like a tactical adjustment league wide, but also the league with these new points of emphasis.
- [11:39]
A
Also more good players, more guys that are just harder to guard.
- [11:44]
B
Yeah, right.
- [11:44]
A
We're the most like trying to do the Ringer 100 last last week or a week and a half ago was impossible. I couldn't believe like some of the guys that were in the 50s, these are guys that would have been in the 30s, you know, 10 years ago. So you watch every team. I was watching Sacramento and overtime last night against Minnesota, Minnesota yet again blows another lead. I don't. At what point do we start kind of side eyeing Chris Finch with all this, like, how many terrible last minute collapses can you have? But in the end of the game, all of a sudden the Kings are going to DeRozan, who's an afterthought, who is probably available for 20 teams if anybody wants to trade for him. And he's getting really hard buckets in overtime. And it's like this didn't exist 10 years ago. Nobody just had DeMar DeRozan sitting over there like ready to score in overtime. Crunch time.
- [12:31]
C
Yeah. And I'm thinking about in terms of San Antonio, the two new guards, when we were doing our Ringer 100 rankings, they say, okay, where's Dylan Harper go? He's on here now. Where Stefan Castle, he's jumping up, way up here. And both of those guys put a lot of pressure on the defense as driving players. I think these younger players are playing more like Shay, who also needs to be mentioned. He's a very hard player to defend legally without fouling, and he knows that. And he, he, he gets his way to the free throw line. So I think it's just, it's a trend that, that has a lot of explanations, but it's sort of leads into the second trend I wanted to bring you.
- [13:08]
A
Can I say one thing on that really quick?
- [13:10]
B
Yeah.
- [13:10]
A
I always think a good way to look at this from a talent standpoint is like four year clusters of drafts. When you think like when the league was struggling, like 05 is a good example. That 04, 05, 06 range, before like the LeBron class really ascended, the draft's just the 990001 02. Like we just didn't have enough good guys coming out of those drafts for a variety of reasons. Right. And then as those guys round into their mid-20s and are supposed to be like the next wave of all NBA guys, we just didn't have them in the same way. And now I think what we're looking at this, these 2000s guys, even 2020, the COVID draft, that still had Edwards and it had Maxi and it had Halliburton, right? And it had Desmond Bain. And you go through and it's like, shit, this is a pretty good draft, you know, And I think last year's draft, especially, like you just inject all of these young guys, these first year players in the league who can play. Like we have 12 guys who can play 25 minutes right now.
- [14:14]
C
And stylistically they're really unique too. And I think that's the most underrated part about how, how the league changes over time is like we're talking about Chris Paul retiring this week. Well, he's taken the elbow jumper with him. He's taken the pull up with him. Right. He's talking about DeMarcus. He's taken that pull up with him too. Now it's all floaters and drives and guys finishing at the rack and pulling up for three and step backs like the older guys take stuff out when they leave with them and the young guys import new stuff. And I think that's one of the coolest ways to think about this too. Whether it's your little four year package of drafts or whatever like these, these generations change the game of style too.
- [14:55]
D
Yeah.
- [14:55]
A
Harper's got a move that I don't know if I've fully seen before. That baseline move, I've talked about it on a previous pod, but he kind of goes like a little herky jerky, goes baseline and then can spin either way, but can spin on the baseline or spin toward the paint. And it's clearly going to become one of his signature moves. But he does, man, I'm really, you know, he got hurt, he missed a couple games. But even if you look at the net ratings, his net rating is a complete outlier compared to like all the other guys in that list. We'll talk about it in a second. What's your second trend?
- [15:25]
C
Well, it's related. It's the, the, the rise of the full court press. So I think, yeah, if you're watching the NBA this year, you're, you're seeing everybody act like Rick Carlisle and you're seeing everybody pick up on the other, on the defensive backcourt. And the numbers really bear this out too, Bill. We're seeing over 40 possessions in an average game. When teams are picking up ball handlers behind that mid court stripe, that's up from 33 last season. That's up from 26 two years ago. And this stat has more than doubled in the 2020. So what we're seeing, you know, last, last year was maybe, or last decade was really about like a shot selection revolution. Here we're starting to see defensive responses to, to some of this. And that's one of the biggest trends I'm seeing sort of in the 2020s is like we're going to pick up your dude as soon as you inbound the ball and make it hard for you to get across and sort of initiate early offense.
- [16:22]
A
You know, one of my favorite writers, a guy named Bill Simmons, wrote a huge basketball book, Once Upon a Time. And one of the chapters I did was trying to create the perfect team of all the guys in history, right? So I did that in 09, 2010. It wasn't just like, these are the best 12 players ever. These are the 12 guys that if we're trying to beat the aliens, how would we do? What kind of looks would we have? Would we have big ball, small ball, shooting lineup? And one of the things I really had was that I was really excited about was like the killer press. Like five guys for an awesome press. And I wrote, I'm borrowing this idea from Rick Pitino, who told Malcolm Gladwell that if he ever coached the NBA again, he would pick five of his bench guys to practice exclusively on a full court press, then play them once a half for four or five minutes at a time. Their sole purpose would be to create havoc, wear opponents down, exploit opposing bench guys and shift momentum. There would be like five guys prowling around like cheetahs. So I picked for this out of my, out of my, my wine cellar team. And this is 2010, Duncan, LeBron Pippen, 2009 Dwyane Wade and 2000, like eight, Chris Paul. And it's just like you guys are all playing together for four minutes. Go get us the ball. Now. If you were going to do that with the guys we have from the last 15 years, I think Kawhi would have to probably be in early, like mid 2010s. Kawhi would probably have to be out there because he's the all time, let me go take that ball. So maybe you would have, maybe you'd have LeBron Pippen and Kawhi, then Chris Paul and then maybe Duncan. But this idea has been sitting there forever. What took the league so long to realize that nobody wants to dribble up against the press and at any level of basketball, by the way.
- [18:02]
C
Yeah, it's annoying and it's. I think it tires these guys out too. It's like if you watch Harden, he takes his breaks, like bringing the ball up, he's like, all right, let me catch my breath. And, and you're just denying them that, that little sort of break in between rounds of action, if you will. But no team's doing it more than the Blazers. And then your team, the Celtics are right there too. And if you have a lot of good defensive minded guards and you're young, why not? Like you're saying, like, nobody wants to see this. And in an era where everybody wants to get into early offense, we've all learned that that's where the efficient part of the shot clock is slowing them down and taking that away and making them sort of toil until they're 16 or 17 on the shot clock. And you hear players starting to say that too. I just don't want to make it easy. Like, why should I just let you walk it up. If you look at teams which aren't doing it, one team sticks out, which is the Lakers. And that sort of makes sense because their guards are not great defensive minded stars.
- [19:04]
A
They didn't really have traditional guards. Right?
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C
Yeah. Luka and Austin Reaves aren't going to do this. But if you have Derrick White or if you have Shaden Sharp and Drew Holiday and you have good depth behind him, why don't you just do this? Be these pests in the backcourt and slow down your opponent.
- [19:19]
A
Well, you had that in your comp today. The ultimate example of this is the Suns. Suns, they're scrappy. They're trying to basically tilt the seesaw a little bit. They're using a bunch of people and they're just. And they have Dylan Brooks as the focal point of all of it. And they're like, we're just going to be super fucking annoying to play against. You're not going to enjoy the experience the entire time they played. When they played Houston, Brooks was just in rare form. No Durant, sadly. But you know, they just. They're not as talented. They had. Houston's been awesome all year, but the Phoenix just scrapping and scratching and it's just the complete opposite of the team we saw in Austin in February. Oh, my God. This team that wanted no part of playing together and didn't really care about pressure or any of that stuff. What was your third trend?
- [20:06]
C
Oh, my third trend. I love the Suns though. I have the east and I want to hear what you say because you're the historian. Here is the 2025, 26 Eastern Conference, the most open conference we've had in a decade or two.
- [20:25]
A
For like who you could see in the finals.
- [20:27]
C
I don't even know who your favorite is. Right. Obviously we talk about the Western Conference right now. If we talk about the east and west in the 2010s, we're talking about warriors and Cavs every year the spurs are in there or there's clear favorites. The east is so wide open, I think at the beginning of the year, hey, it's the Knicks and the Cavs. And if you look at FanDuel, they still have the Cavs.
- [20:50]
A
It's still the Cavs, the Cab we haven't seen the Cavs play together all year. They had all of their guys together for more than one game in a row.
- [20:58]
C
But we did see the Cavs play in the playoffs last year. Bill.
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A
Garland was hurt, though. It was.
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C
But if that's your favorite, I'm fine with that. I just think there's a wide openness to the Eastern Conference that's very exciting. And you have teams like Detroit and Toronto and Miami who are threatening to sort of crash that party. And you could tell me the Hawks are in that group too. But I just. You look at the west and you're like, okay, this is the Thunders. This. Unless the Nuggets have a postseason run of the ages. But the east just seems like it's the most wide open that I can remember, any conference, since I've been covering the league.
- [21:40]
A
Yeah, I'm going to go. The one that jumped into my head as you were laying that out was 07, because that's the weirdest team that made a finals. The 07 Cavaliers. Right?
- [21:51]
C
Oh, yeah.
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A
So that had. That was. We thought Detroit was going to make it. That was kind of the tail end of their run. Even though they made it last year. They were 53 wins that year. I don't either. They lost. Did they lose Wallace? I'm just going to check this really fast. Did they lose Ben Wallace that year? They did. So they were kind of like every. We were kind of looking for. Is there anybody else was in Miami? Miami had that kind of year after the title year. Toronto won 47. LeBron won 50 basically by himself. He had nobody on that team. The Bulls, 149. But that was one of those years where we were like, are we. Is there?
- [22:28]
B
What?
- [22:29]
A
And meanwhile all the action was in the west this year. The three best teams are in the west, right? It's like unassailable. Those are the three best teams. I think Cleveland has a chance out of everybody we have in the east to climb up. But you mentioned. I think Detroit's a little closer to that conversation than you gave them credit for. Like they're clearly three and there might even be two. Atlanta is the wild card to me because of some of the advanced stats with the non trade lineups. I think that they have. One of those lineups is like one of the best lineups in the league. The one with Porzingis and the three long guys and Alexander Walker. I'm not counting out Orlando yet. That was one of the things I was going to talk about with you. When you look at the five man lineups, Orlando's best five guys. The whole reason they made that trade. Those guys are plus 19.7 when they all play together.
- [23:24]
C
Oh really? With the Bane and then the two Young or the Bunker Wendell.
- [23:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. So that tells me there's room with bench stuff and. Or it tells me their bench is terrible. Or maybe both. But Atlanta's best five, no trey is plus 14.8. And I think that means something because Atlanta has the trade possibility if they wanted to get nuts and trade them. They also had that giant trade exception if they wanted to just add one more bench guy. But I think, I think they have the most room to kind of maneuver with the roster they have if they. Detroit, everybody's throwing the marketing trade. I, I personally would not fuck with Detroit. I wouldn't do it. Zach and I talked about it Thursday. We used the what would Sam Presti do rule and we both agreed Sam Presti would not do anything.
- [24:12]
C
Right? No, he would have. He would have traded with Joe Dumars to elevate his draft position for next year, which is looking like an incredible move by Ansi in the Hawks front office. Right. I love this.
- [24:25]
A
That's the thing. They have that crazy trade chip if they want to, if they want to use it, they have this New Orleans pick that is going to be top six.
- [24:31]
C
And again, if we're doing what would Presti do? The move is to keep that pick and get a Chet Holmgren type player on your team next year and be ready to go. And I love the Hawks, not just this year but, but more so deep into the future. I mean, Jalen Johnson is great and Dyson Daniels like they have such an identity now, but Detroit's the one.
- [24:52]
A
There's some re sachet momentum. I don't know if you've been following.
- [24:58]
C
Reesache, Reed shepherd, still a conversation in many practice facilities. But I want to push back on something. I love the Detroit Pistons. I love. I thought they should have beat the Knicks in the playoffs last year. You know, no disrespect to the Knicks, there was some tight calls there. I feel like Detroit was still learning how to win. They had this weird Malik Beasley thing which in retrospect is. Was very distracting. But they're 15 and two man and they look great protecting the paint and they look good attacking the paint. They have this Cunningham Duran pick and roll thing that is emerging as one of the most reliable two man games in the Eastern Conference. The shooting is a little questionable. Duncan Robinson is. Is filling that role nicely. But still beyond Duncan if Tobias Harris isn't playing a lot. But I love Detroit. I think they deserve to be in the Knicks Cavs conversation. If I had to elevate one team, it's definitely Detroit and I'll take the 15 and 2 record as exhibit A there.
- [26:04]
A
Yeah, I would have those three. I think Detroit has officially moved into the conversation with the other two now. I would still take Cleveland and then Orlando is the wild card and then Atlanta is the wild wild card. Other than that, Milwaukee being a playing team, but having Giannis come back for the last 45 games of the year and still having to see them in a one game or in a two seven, something like that. I just don't want to see Giannis in the playoff series. Especially like with with how driven he is now. They're a little under 500 now and the longer he goes out their lineups are really the all the stuff is really bad without him like that. I think the lineup they played the most without giannis was like -19 or something. But in eye test wise it's like ugh and that you know the Kuzma roller coaster stuff. Let's we'll take a quick break and then going to come back and throw some other stuff at you. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel this Thanksgiving. FanDuel introducing a brand new way to parlay together. Let's parlay together everybody. It's called Pass the leg. Here's how it works. Start a group, add your pick, then pass it to your friends so they can add theirs. When everyone's done, each look at the parlay with your own funds on top. Everyone gets a 50% profit boost to use on their build in Missouri. Get ready because FanDuel is going live on December 1st. FanDuel play your game. You must be 21 plus President select states or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable per profit boost tokens Restrictions apply including any token expiration max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fandor.com Gam Prom Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChadConnecticut this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it's stands apart from the other ad buys. You could target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. That's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return and ad spend on all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com SimmonsBill Terms and Conditions apply.
- [28:31]
B
All right.
- [28:31]
A
Any other trends before we keep going?
- [28:34]
C
Well, I got you. Want one? The nerds are really talking about this one, which is. Picks are in decline. So when you and I were growing up, it was dump it down to McHale or Jabbar and the post game was the bread and butter action of pro basketball. You know, the d' Antoni Suns obviously made it a pick and roll game. But here we are in 2025 and the epicenter of this movement is in Miami. I don't know if you're following.
- [29:02]
A
I sure am. I hate that I like watching them.
- [29:05]
C
Oh, it's electric to watch.
- [29:06]
A
Yeah, they're really fun to watch. I hate myself.
- [29:09]
B
But.
- [29:10]
C
But it's also unprecedented. They're setting fewer screens than any team has in decades in the player tracking era by a wide margin. They're just saying let's move the ball quickly and see if we can find a driving gap and attack it before anybody's ready set on defense. So it is, it's fun to watch. People are comparing it.
- [29:31]
A
It's like a run and shoot football offense.
- [29:33]
C
That's a great analogy.
- [29:35]
A
They're just going, they're trying to just get downhill and catch people when they're backpedaling. Seems to be their entire strategy. And it works.
- [29:41]
C
Yeah, they're, they're, they're number one in pace, they're setting the fewest picks in the league and they're scoring by far more points per game even though they're number 12 in offensive efficiency. But it's a brand new look. I think last year Adebayo said 27 picks per game. Bill, if you want to drill down on a player level, he's setting eight picks a game this year. They're just, they're just doing something completely different. And they've gotten off to a really good start with a 12th ranked offense without great offensive personnel. Remember, Tyler Harrow hasn't played much at all. Bam. Adebayo's missed time. And they're number 12 on offense and by the way, this team is built for defense. They're a top five defense. If Harrow comes back and he fits into this, which. Why wouldn't he? And if Adebayo is regularly available, I expect him to be flirting with the top 10 offense. With this new look, the defense is great. Will teams around the NBA start to copy this just like they copied elements of the spurs or d' Antoni systems? That's what the nerds are talking.
- [30:49]
A
Wow. Didn't realize the nerds. That was that much scuttlebutt for that. Can I ask you. I don't think Miami should do this trade, so I'm going to preface that right now. So don't aggregate this, because this is a no for Miami. I'm just talking about it as a conception, because I think Sabonis is available on the Kings. And I was just wondering, would it be more fun to watch Sabonis the way Miami is playing, than Bam Adebayo in this offense with what they're trying to do? It's just. My point is, I've always wanted to see Sabonis in an offense like this, where you're just going. And he's just rebounding. And I always thought he was underrated as, like a guy on the move. And he kind of gets pigeonholed with whoever the fuck is on the Kings.
- [31:34]
C
Every year, where everybody stands around, there's ball stoppers everywhere. But he. He can dribble, pass and shoot. I mean, I love Bam Adebayo, but I think, yeah, the passing and the movement that they're trying to do there in Miami, he would fit in there.
- [31:46]
A
He can do it too, obviously. Yeah. But it's just like.
- [31:48]
D
I wish.
- [31:50]
A
It's too bad that's not a fair trade because it would be fun to see him on that team.
- [31:53]
B
But we'll see what they are once.
- [31:55]
C
They get Harrow in there and Adebayo in there. I mean, they. I don't know. I know we all respect Eric Spoelstra. You're afraid of the Miami Heat because they've scarred you for years.
- [32:08]
A
Well, they're Michael Myers. You think they're dead. And then all of a sudden there's another movie coming out. It's like, I thought he blew up in a fire. He's back, his mask burned.
- [32:19]
C
I'll compare him to Gregg Popovich because he's played many different ways. Eric Spoelstra, now, he's been in the league so long, and one of the signs of a great coach, he doesn't get fired from the place. He's been coaching, but he's sort of overseen these different motifs. Like obviously starting with the Heatles, but then moving on with the Dragic era, the Heat culture, Butler era, and now this. Like, he's. He plays different ways and I really respect that about him. And this is just one of the more innovative things we're seeing in the NBA this season.
- [32:54]
A
Here's what doesn't make a ton of sense, and I think it's bad for them long term. They just don't have the horses. They don't have a top 25 player. I had Bam at 27. They've Hero and Powell. They're getting a great Powell year. Great, great comeback. Hawkheads year. Hero's coming back. But I think if you're actually going to think about, like, can they make the Finals? I think it's really hard to make it if you don't have a top 25 guy. So you would. I don't know you. It would have to be one of the weirdest seasons in the history of the league. Can I give you. You mentioned that pace thing, Miami being first in pace. What were the odds on that in August? Like a hundred to one?
- [33:36]
C
No, I mean, there was some talk about this, this, this Grizzlies consultant coming over and talking to SPO about this newfangled offense, but you'd have to be really deep in discord first to predict that Miami Heat would be. No, nobody saw this coming.
- [33:52]
A
Clippers are 29th, which fits the eye test. The 30th team. Do you know who's 30th?
- [33:58]
C
Is it your team?
- [33:59]
A
It's my team.
- [34:01]
C
Yeah.
- [34:01]
A
I thought before the year they were going to be running gun gunning threes, going like, kind of like just trying to cause chaos. They've done the opposite and weirdly, it's kind of worked. Like they have a winning record. Now, granted, they've had a little bit of schedule look like they played Orlando the other day and Orlando is missing everybody. But. But, you know, their defensive rating is a little higher than I thought. I think they're. They might be. What are they, fifth? Yeah, they're fifth in defensive rating. They're third and three points attempted, their last in free throws attempted and they're last in pace. And it matches what you watch game to game. I don't know what this team is. White hasn't had a good year at all. They have like three. Jalen's been excellent and then. And then Neemi has been like the most underrated guy in the league.
- [34:51]
C
Yeah.
- [34:51]
A
And he got. He sprained his ankle. I'm a multiple sec text threads about, oh, my God, we can't lose Keita. Like, this is things Celtics fans are texting each other, so that's been weird. I have a couple offensive ratings things for you. So Houston is first.
- [35:08]
C
Yeah.
- [35:10]
A
Which is bonkers. They're 30th and three points attempted.
- [35:13]
C
Yes.
- [35:14]
A
First in rebounds by a wide margin. And they basically just flipped everything we thought basketball was as we headed into the mid-2020s. Like, spacing, shooting, switchability on defense. It's like Houston's like, nope, here's this giant team where we're really good at shooting twos and we're going to crash the boards and we're going to have the number one offense this way. Can you make any sense of this?
- [35:37]
C
Yeah, I looked into it for the column last week, and it's. It's remarkable we forgot about rebounding, I think, generally as a fundamentally important part of the sport. And Stephen Adams and Alper and Sagun are here to remind us. Dude, I think if I'm not mistaken, Bill Simmons, this year's Houston Rockets team is on pace to set the record for offensive rebounding percentage by recovering over 40% of their own missed shots. So, yeah, they're not shooting threes, but when they miss, the defensive stop hasn't happened yet. And a lot of those second chance points, those second chances are among the most efficient options you can have as an offense, and they just have more of them than anybody we've ever seen. Credit to Stephen Adams, but also Sengun. And just one of the things when Van Fleet got hurt is, oh, yeah, they put Amen Thompson in a point guard. And by the way, I got in trouble by saying he's not a point guard. He identifies as a point guard, has his whole life, but my, my. The larger point is.
- [36:41]
A
Stop it. He's not a point guard. He's a guard that dribbles the ball up and you can run stuff through him. He's not a point guard. Chris Paul is a point guard.
- [36:48]
C
I got corrected sitting next to some Rockets coach, but don't say that about him.
- [36:54]
A
Stop. They can settle down, but one of.
- [36:56]
C
The things when Van Fleet went down is like, okay, now every dude in this lineup is a rebounder, right? And so Durant is one of the tallest threes when they're playing double bigs that you'll ever see in this league. And then you have, you know, people like T and. And guys like Jabari, Jabari Aman Thompson, who are incredible Rebounders. So it is one of the more fascinating pathways we've seen to the number one offense in a very long time when. When Joe Maula had figured out the math, hey, what if we just shot more threes than everybody else? That was. It was kind of this sort of cliche way to get there. What I love about this Rockets team is they are reminding us that you can get there with just brute force inside and grabbing rebounds from your opponents.
- [37:44]
A
Oh, did. Were you and I doing the podcast where we talked about Reed shepherd and whether the van. We did that one right. And I just think it's worked out as it's a 10 out of 10 if you're a Rockets fan for like. All right, how am I feeling heading into Thanksgiving about Reed shepherd getting some of these Van Vliet minutes? He's looks way more like Mark Price than Brent Price. So if you're doing the Price brother seesaw, which I think is an important way to look at him, he is. Looks like Mark Price is doppelganger. I thought Friday was one of the games of the year. It was NBA cup whatever. It was more like a let's size each other up. Denver didn't have all their guys. Houston should have won the game. It felt like. And Denver just did what they usually do sometimes with Joker where they're like, yeah, and of course they lost the next night because it was like, it really was like a high level playoff game. But I also thought it was a good game for Houston because I think, I think it showed them like, Shepard can play in these games now. We can, we can get 20 to 25 out of him. All of our guys kind of makes sense against this Denver team. And if you're going to beat Denver with bigger guys and length and Jokic is going to get what he's going to get. Sengun was the one X factor. He wasn't good.
- [38:56]
C
Yeah.
- [38:57]
A
And was that I'm playing my, you know, my. The guy I always get compared to and I just had a bad game or was there something more there? I don't know.
- [39:04]
C
But those three teams. And you. You alluded to this earlier. Those are the three best teams in the NBA, right. We have Houston, we have Denver, and we have okc.
- [39:12]
A
And then OKC levitating over both of them.
- [39:15]
C
Well, that's my last trend, by the way. But yeah, dude, I think anybody who says all these teams are playing the same, just watch those three teams. It couldn't be more different. It couldn't be more different. And you and I Have to do this every time this year it feels like. But this time of year is like this is awesome. I love watching the Rockets play the Nuggets or the Nuggets play the Thunder. I just pray everybody's healthy. But I do want to shout out Ime Adoka, Ben Sullivan, that staff for finding efficient offense in a way that people haven't found it. And it's a little bit like what's going on in Miami. There are these cool stylistic trends that are find success in the NBA.
- [39:57]
A
Yeah, there's some. There's a couple good games tomorrow night and the most interesting one to me and this ties into Houston and a team I wanted to talk about quick. I know you're going to talk about OKC in a second but Houston, Golden State, Golden State, you know they've had some injuries. They're not going to have their whole team. Golden State's 21st offensive rating with the team they have if they're not going to be better offensively like to me, Golden State, their record and they could point to a whole bunch of things but they're basically been a 500 team conceptually I'm worried for as you know, I love Curry. I'm really worried about this team because I don't think they're big enough and I think they kind of know they're not big enough. But I think where the league has gone, even where it was in 10 years ago, 2015, even that year they had Boguts, they had the ability to bring in somebody with some size. I. I just think when they're playing these like Steven Adams and Sengun together or they're playing Portland where Portland can give you cling in and then all of a sudden Rob Williams is back. They just can't match up with these teams. They can't rebound, they give up too many offensive rebounds and they don't get second chance points. So everything, it's like one of those, it's like one of those end of Brady's Patriots career Patriots teams where everything had to be absolutely perfect just to get a drive and if one guy dropped the pass or a pass got tipped, you're just going, the punter's coming in. Golden State, like everything has to be perfect. Curry has to be awesome, Butler has to be incredible and it's just not easy enough for them. And I really think they need to.
- [41:32]
C
Make a trade and Horford needs to be available. I say them and the Clippers.
- [41:36]
A
He's old, he's a 50 game a year guy who doesn't rebound anymore. He's not going to solve this.
- [41:41]
C
I call them in the Clippers, the Danny Glover Lethal Weapon teams. Dude, they're too old for this shit.
- [41:47]
A
Like right.
- [41:49]
C
This is a league that's been dominated and you've written about this better than anybody for a generation. This is a 20 something man's league for the most part. You can, you can find exceptions to that. But look at okc, man. Look at the, the best teams and you're going to get pushed around and it's just like especially once you're on the wrong side of 34, 35, it's somebody else is in better shape than you, Somebody else is hungrier than you.
- [42:16]
A
There's more wear and tear. You're not recovering for the third game in four nights. There's a trade I think they can make. Can I float this at you?
- [42:24]
C
Yeah.
- [42:25]
A
It can't happen until mid January. Obviously Kaminga is involved. Yep. Why does Gafford have to be on Dallas?
- [42:35]
C
Dallas has too many bigs. If, if you're the. What do they call it? The interim GM of the Dallas Mavericks, I guess is Michael Finley. You have to look at your front line and be like, we have too many guys up here.
- [42:46]
A
They have the second defensive rated their number two and they're 30th in offense. And it adds up when you watch them because they don't have a point guard. They finally at least realized how to that Cooper flag had to actually try to grow his career instead of ruin it. Yeah, but what if it was Kaminga to the to Chicago, Colby White to Dallas and then Gafford and expiring the Golden State? Does anyone have to throw a pick into that trade? Because the moment White came back to Chicago it kind of screwed them up. I'm not positive they need him and I actually think they probably need another wing and more explosiveness. And Kobe White's going to be a free agent. Do you want to pay Kobe White if you're Chicago when you already just paid Giddy that there's some sort of ring around a Rosie trade with that. But I like the idea of Kobe White in Dallas who desperately needs somebody like him.
- [43:36]
C
Yep.
- [43:37]
A
And then gaffer to Golden State if they could get turn Kaminga and Gafford somehow. I'm not going to say they're going to make the finals, but I think that at least gives them a puncher's chance to win a couple rounds.
- [43:49]
C
Yeah, they've been at their best. Remember, Looney's not there anymore. He was there forever. They don't have that traditional five man. With all due respect to post, I like it coming. Obviously it's not clicking. It's as awkward as it's ever been.
- [44:04]
A
Well, they can't play him and Draymond and Butler together. Doesn't. It doesn't work. If those are three of your guys, you're not. You're just not going to rebound well.
- [44:12]
C
Enough and you're the Dallas point. Like Dallas needs to start moving. They're going to be really active at this deadline or they're going to have some disappointed fans because they have too many pieces to move around and they need to start looking at the future around Cooper and Lively, in my opinion.
- [44:28]
A
Well, Lively, who's they just said has hurt even longer now. So I don't know if that affects your thinking at all.
- [44:33]
C
No, it doesn't. I think we'll see. I think it's a foot thing which is, as you know is is is you got to be really careful with those. But assuming he's healthy, I those are two pretty great building blocks for a rebuild. If you have Cooper flag and a relatively healthy Derek Lively, that's a pretty fast rebuild. I think a lot of teams in league would kill to have that as your starting point, but everything else should be on the table. PJ Kyrie, AD is obviously already being floated out there, but this is a team that needs to get young fast and get a return on some of these players that aren't in that aging sort of that part of their aging curve as soon as possible.
- [45:18]
A
Not ready to throw away this season Yeter from Dallas Cause I think they have. I like a lot of their players. They missed on dlo. I tried to warn everybody and then Kyrie got mad at me. Sorry. If they had somebody who could have the ball and create shots and actually care about other guys on the team and try to set them up and things like that. I think that only helps Flag. The only thing I care about is how do we help Flag. Well, step one, get him a guard who thinks about other players in the team and can create stuff. That's step one. Step two is how do you get rid of this weird log jam you have, especially with Davis coming back where you have to play flag basically as a two or three too many big guys. Trade one of the big guys for a guard like this is a fucking layup. Build around Levitt. You're not going to be able to trade Anthony Davis. He's not going anywhere. Nobody's trading for him. That trade doesn't exist. It's not going to happen until this summer. He's going to be on your team this year. So maybe you could try to make a run and try to get a playing team. Because some of these west teams are bad, you know, and they're not that far out of it. What's their 5 and 14?
- [46:24]
C
Dude, I mean, I.
- [46:26]
A
5 and 14. But the 10 seed is 6 and 12.
- [46:30]
C
That's true.
- [46:30]
A
And that's Memphis. And that's what the John Moran thing going. Couldn't be going worse. But could they leapfrog Sacramento, Clippers, Utah, Memphis, Portland, Like, I think they could be a ninth seed. I would try to be thinking now how to make the team better.
- [46:45]
C
That's interesting.
- [46:46]
A
I think they have Davis. Davis is. I don't know what version of him we're getting when he comes back, but Davis, when he's healthy, is a top 20 player in the league.
- [46:55]
C
That's right. When he's healthy.
- [46:56]
A
So I don't know. I wouldn't punt on the season if I was Dallas.
- [47:00]
C
It's compelling. I think they got to start the rebuild. But I.
- [47:05]
A
What they don't have is they couldn't do that Kaminga trade for another month because. Or a month and a half because you can't do it until January 15th. So maybe it'll be too late by then.
- [47:12]
C
Well, and the other thing to watch with Dallas is they do have a. A, a wounded front office to be. To put it mildly. Are they going to let Michael Finlay or, you know, an interim GM come.
- [47:21]
A
In and intellectually wounded or just wounded?
- [47:23]
C
Just wounded.
- [47:24]
A
After.
- [47:24]
C
I mean, they, they lost their. Their, Their leader.
- [47:28]
A
So leader Jason Kidd didn't know about the trade.
- [47:31]
C
I. Dude. Hey.
- [47:32]
A
He had no idea.
- [47:33]
C
Blindside.
- [47:34]
A
Nobody knew. Dumont didn't know. It was Nico, his solo shooter. He was JFK on the sixth floor. Just acted alone. CIA not involved. Ridiculous.
- [47:43]
C
But do they want to bring in another executive to manage this rebuild around Cooper? Flag.
- [47:50]
A
I'm right here. I'll move to Dallas. I'm throwing my hat in the ring. It's time.
- [47:53]
C
Yeah.
- [47:54]
A
Folks ready to do it? I'll leave the ringer.
- [47:57]
C
Don't leave the ringer.
- [47:59]
A
I'll turn it over to Gehao and Eduardo.
- [48:02]
C
There you go.
- [48:03]
A
Now the Mavericks. That's a great job. Their fans. I will say the fans. I get it. The most traumatizing sports trade ever. But the fans have to move forward now. Flag's really good. He's not even 19 yet. He's finishing games. They're running plays for him in Crunch time. He's an awesome additive player. There's good pieces here. I don't think they're out of the playoff race and I think Nico's gone. They did that. I'd be a little worried about the Jason Kidd. I'm not positive he's. Whether he wants to coach or whether he wants to coach this team, I have no idea. But Davis is going to be in the team. There's no Davis trade. You're not getting four first round picks for him. It's not happening. I don't think who's the team?
- [48:44]
C
I don't, I don't know.
- [48:45]
A
I'm not trading for him if I'm Detroit, I'm changing my identity if I get him. I don't want to do that one 13 straight games.
- [48:51]
C
I was watching Phoenix without Mark Williams the other day and that was one that crossed my mind. Oh is because of the Kentucky connection with, with Devin Booker now I haven't picks, I haven't done the research on, you know the, the, the salaries and bat but I was just like oh yeah, the Phoenix, Phoenix might be a good place for him to land. But I, I don't know. If I was in a front office my job would be to bring to the general manager all the risk associated with the move. And Anthony Davis is nothing if not human risk. And signing up for two years of Anthony Davis at a big number is just a lot of risk for one of these teams.
- [49:33]
A
If you were the Knicks and Davis for Towns as the focal point of something was on the table. Who hangs up faster?
- [49:44]
C
I think the Mavs are staying on the phone because they just. They want to hear what what they're looking to move on with their lives.
- [49:50]
A
Also Towns is kind of a better fit for this team to have with these multiple centers than at least he could be on the outside stretching the floor versus and he's younger.
- [50:00]
C
I mean he's younger player. He's.
- [50:02]
A
Can you do your, can you do your OKC thing quick before I'm going to bring House in with us?
- [50:06]
C
Well, this involves Joe House's team too. I wanted to ask the SP are we more likely to see historically great NBA record this season or a historically bad NBA record this season?
- [50:20]
A
I've been on this regular season win record for the last month and the odds have been dropping. I think what was it plus 700 or something on FanDuel for them to do it? Oh, House is here. House, are you recording?
- [50:33]
B
I am of course.
- [50:35]
A
Remember your friend Kurt Goldsberry, One of.
- [50:37]
B
My favorites the OGKG, baby. Let's go.
- [50:41]
A
The little tickets. OKC is plus 880 to break the wins record on FanDuel. 74 plus wins plus 880. Is that more realistic to you than the Wizards breaking the loss record? If you had to pick one Wizards most losses ever, Thunder most wins ever.
- [51:00]
D
What would you pick?
- [51:01]
B
The Thunder. I mean, the Wizards could win basketball games. They could. There are. There are NBA level players. Not many of them, but, you know, they're playing these rotation shenanigans and so forth. There's a 115.
- [51:16]
A
How's it going to get better? You're going to be buying out veterans.
- [51:20]
B
Play the NBA players at the end of the games. I do regret and resent them not trying to win a few of these games at the end of the, you know, in the fourth quarter where they're competitive. There's a few that I haven't been a fan of.
- [51:35]
C
Would it bother you if they were the worst team of all time? Or would that just be like, all right, we got a great dress.
- [51:40]
A
House, his body's full of Wizards bullet scars. At this point, he's just another scar for his first leg. Can you do some of your OKC stuff, Kirk?
- [51:51]
C
Well, I mean, if you just look at the game the way I do, there's a compelling case for the Thunder to beat this record. They're setting the the net rating record once again.
- [52:02]
A
The Bulls, after 18 games. It's the highest, right?
- [52:04]
C
Well, so there's a case against it, but the case for it is, yeah, the net rating is over 16. The 95, 96 Bulls have the record at plus 13. Wow. Remember the one that when the warriors won 73, they didn't even lead the NBA in that rating. That was our spurs in San Antonio that year. Thanks, Zaza.
- [52:24]
A
But did you hang a banner for that or no?
- [52:26]
C
No, Zaza made sure of that. We also had another counterpoint, though. For those who don't want to see this record fall. The Thunder have had the easiest schedule in the league so far.
- [52:39]
A
How about counter to the counter? No, Jalen Williams to the counter.
- [52:42]
C
So that's where it goes. So I. I think the over under is 68 and a half right now on FanDuel, which is absurd. I would take the over, and the only question there to me is how far over can they get?
- [52:56]
A
House. OKCs reached a point when they lose. I'm shocked, right? And I know this because they've only lost once, and it's shocking if they lose, like their next couple games. They home for Minnesota, home, Phoenix at Portland to finish the month. Those would be three shockers for me if they lost any of those games. Then you go into December, they're at Golden State, home, Dallas at Utah, home, Clippers. They could be 24, 20, 24 and one heading into at Minnesota on Friday, December 19th. That's some rarefied territory.
- [53:33]
C
Like the Warriors.
- [53:34]
A
What did they start out, 25 and oh, we've had some teams start out like 24 and 1, 27 1.
- [53:39]
B
But I want to see like how much of it as we map this out before. So the implied probability at plus 880 is a little better than 10%. That feels like a good, you know, worth. Worth a dabble. But how many times are they doing three games in four nights? What is, what's the back to back situation look like? Like you would want to map some of that stuff out. I'm not worried about like strength of schedule because who. Who I'm still mad at the Cavaliers last night sitting virtually everybody against Toronto, basically conceding the tiebreaker against Toronto as though Cleveland's going to finish so much better than Toronto this upcoming season that they can go ahead and concede the tire. They're there. They've lost three times to the Raptors and they have a game last night. Everybody sits like, come on.
- [54:27]
A
The other thing about. Yeah, the last thing I say on.
- [54:29]
C
The Thunder is like they're going to encounter so many games and this is very 20, 25 NBA and I don't like it where the other team isn't trying to win. To your point, I think when you talk about the 96 Bulls or the 16 warriors, is it fair to say that this potential record could fall in part because there's more teams not trying their best on a nightly basis in the NBA.
- [54:54]
A
So are you saying against OKC specifically or just in general?
- [54:59]
C
Just in general, like teams are tanking at a higher level. More teams are tanking this year with a deep draft. So if they do get to 74, is there an asterisk in part because there's so many of these Wizards, Utah.
- [55:14]
A
Go look at the 90, 96 bulls. That league sucked that year.
- [55:17]
C
Fair enough.
- [55:18]
A
That was one of the reasons. That's one of the reasons that happened. It was like we had like the. Yeah, we had expansion teams in two clusters right before they did that. And I don't know that that the 73 and 9. I actually think there's probably some more impressive records. The crazy thing with Jordan was never losing three games in a Row for the last six bowl seasons. That's one of my favorite stats ever. Can I throw you Toronto sixth offensive rating, second and assist per game and 27th. And three points attempted, three pointers attempted. Some of it schedule related. Right. Zach and I talked about that last week. Schedules lined up really nicely for them. But I, test wise, I, I don't mind watching them. Like, I, I actually think it's a team that makes sense together. But do you think that ratings. Does that seem too high to you? What do you think?
- [56:10]
C
Yeah, I think there's some shooting luck on both ends of the court. I don't want to rain on the Canadian parade, but if you look at the 3 point shooting percentage on, on defense, it's a little lower than you would expect. And, and on offense it might be higher. I think Scotty Barnes is shooting 40%. I love Scotty, but that's not where he's going to land this year. But they're bringing the ball to the hoop, they're attacking, they're really physical. And I do love Scotty Barnes because there's, there's very. He's not Giannis, but with a head of steam and he gets going. That's a real great. Yeah. And then last.
- [56:40]
A
I finally bought in. After five years, I'm finally in on Scotty.
- [56:44]
C
Yeah, I'm in. It took, it took some time.
- [56:46]
A
Are you shrugging House because he sucked last year?
- [56:49]
B
I mean, it's perfectly fine. He's playing much better. He's playing. Yes. I mean, his shooting percentages across the board last year, which was emblematic of what that team was, you know, sort of designed for and what their, their goals were. They had injuries throughout the season and they decided to do the Quiet tank with about 30 games left. They pulled everybody off the court. So you didn't get any. They paid Scotty Barnes all of this money and then he, you know, he didn't show up. But this, I like this version of Toronto quite a bit.
- [57:18]
A
By the way, that's a great name for a blog in the 2000s. The Quiet Tank. We're going to see some quiet tankers pretty soon, I think. The quiet Tanks. I keep waiting for it with my team to see. My team just keeps winning every time. I think the tank's about to happen. House has been quietly quiet betting Toronto over and over again. That's been one of your teams, right? Toronto and Phoenix have been your two teams.
- [57:45]
B
Well, and Toronto was a lock for me, the over. I mean, I think I got him at 39 and a half. Before the season started.
- [57:52]
C
I love them.
- [57:53]
A
The best stat of all time this year, OKC being first in defensive rating by 7.9 points. That's. I've never seen anything like that. Dallas is second, Detroit's third, Houston's fifth. The net rating stuff anyone over 20 minutes a game. All the leaders are from OKC in Denver and then Suggs pops in there plus 17.2, Dylan Harper 16.8, Steven Adams 16.8, Anunoby 16.5 and then my guy Keda 16.4 house stick around. Kirk, can you stick around for one more quick segment or you?
- [58:34]
C
Hell yeah.
- [58:35]
A
All right, we're taking one more break. I want to talk point guards with you guys. This Thanksgiving, FanDuel is letting you pass the leg to your friends and family with a fun new way to bet. So let's break it down open. Pass the leg in the FanDuel Sportsbook app and begin by creating a unique link for your group. Add your legs. Invite and share with friends. Once friends are finished adding their legs, add the group parlay to your bet slip. Finally, use your pass the leg pbt Last but not least, to boost your winnings and place your bet. Sal House and Debundo. They're creating their own group pass the leg bet on Cowboys vs Chiefs. I would love to get in on that one before selling. House, eat all the turkey and forget to pass the leg. So go check out that parlay. Throw it in to whatever you want to do for your bets for Thanksgiving and for Black Friday and everything else. And on Wednesday, the ringer will be sharing our final group bet. Stay tuned to Social for that. All right, two topics didn't prep you for either of them. You know, it's 25 years of the 21st century. Thinking back a little bit to everything we've seen. And I was thinking about John Morant, who I just have been so disappointed by for so many different reasons as most basketball fans have been the last couple years. Even the Klay Thompson thing, like Klay Thompson's NBA royalty like, settle down. Don't talk shit to Klay Thompson. Anyway, I was wondering, has he thrown his hat in the ring for one of the most disappointing stars of the past 25 years? And what are the qualifications for that list? House Because I don't think injuries are fair. It's like, oh, I'm so disappointed in Jay Williams. Well, he got in a motorcycle accident. He hurt his leg. That doesn't count. Greg Odin, I can't be disappointed by, but I made a list of the guys I was the most disappointed by. And I'm not even going to read all the lists, especially because probably all of them have a player podcast at this point. But I think my number one most disappointing guy of the last 25 years is Ben Simmons.
- [60:39]
B
Oh, yeah, sure. That makes a lot of sense.
- [60:42]
A
I think he was there for like a year and a half when it was like, I see the vision of what Ben Simmons. I think he can be the. One of the 10 best guys in the league. Like it's, it's right there. You kind of look like LeBron sometimes when you have a head of steam downhill. And defensively, you might be one of the three best guys in the league and you are a foundation block of a team that could maybe win a title. And then it's just that Atlanta series, it went sideways and I'm disappointed by it. So would that be a good candidate for you guys? Ja. Is Ja starting to nudge toward the top here, Kirk?
- [61:17]
C
Yeah, he definitely is in part because I loved watching him play basketball at such a high level.
- [61:22]
A
Me too.
- [61:22]
C
And he was so young and so ascendant and so confident and cocky in like those series against the warriors were just thrilling to watch. And you know, I hear Chris Vernon in my head with just. He had the city too. Like he had this whole identity of Memphis and all this. And it was like, oh, this is perfect. The alignment of the player and the city and the, and the, the highlights were incredible too. It wasn't like boring greatness. But yeah, it's been. It's been. I think I'd put him ahead of Ben Simmons, but that might be recency bias just. Cause I loved how, how I loved watching John Morant play has.
- [62:00]
B
I mean Ben Simmons to me has to be number one because wasn't he. Was he first team or second team?
- [62:05]
A
His second team all NBA.
- [62:06]
B
All NBA and first team all NBA defense, right?
- [62:10]
A
Yeah.
- [62:10]
B
So Jaw hasn't. Has he sniffed that what's. John, what's at the job might have.
- [62:15]
A
Been third team, but Ja was, you know, they had. I guess the highlight for him was that Golden State series when they went toe to toe with those guys. They showed clips of that the other day when they were talking about his history with Golden State. And even in that series, he just looks more explosive than anything we've seen this year. He's got to be in there.
- [62:33]
B
Yeah. So we're not counting first round busts. So Markel Faltz, I'll give you a couple others disappointment. Go ahead.
- [62:41]
A
Yeah. Markel Faultz is a Tough one, because he's disappointing. But I also think, like, you know, he. In retrospect, I wonder how much some of that was his fault. It seemed like he had some physical stuff with the shoulder. Like Zion to me is on the list, but I think can still play out of it. Just because I don't think he's taken the body piece of it. Staying in shape, taking care of himself. I just don't think he's done it. And I think that's the biggest reason he's had so many issues. I don't think it's debatable. Right. And he's one of those guys you watch from far and you're like, why can't this guy figure it out? So I think that has to qualify. I had Darko. I don't know how much of that was his fault, but Darko was really talented and I don't really know why it didn't happen. This isn't like a Kwame Brown thing where Kwame Brown got drafted out of high school, ended up staying in the league for a while. Right. And it wasn't his fault he went first. And that somebody thought he was better as an 18 year old than Pau Gasol, which is just the wrong opinion.
- [63:43]
B
But somebody was Michael Jordan.
- [63:44]
C
Michael Jordan.
- [63:45]
A
Somebody was the greatest player of all time. Yeah, Darko was. Darko was good. He just was a fucking mess. But I. That one still bugs me.
- [63:53]
B
Bad situation.
- [63:54]
A
He's a seven foot guy, could shoot threes, and, you know, he was athletic. Kirk's smiling.
- [63:59]
C
Oh, I love the. I mean, was he too early for his time?
- [64:02]
B
Oh, God, such a great point.
- [64:04]
A
You know, I don't know if he goes to a different team. He's not on this. He's not the mascot of a 2004 Pistons title team. And he's just on Charlotte for a couple years. Does it turn out okay for him? I don't know.
- [64:17]
B
Couldn't he have been Kristoff Porzingis 1.0? Couldn't he have been?
- [64:21]
C
I don't know.
- [64:22]
A
I mean, you could do the Instagram thing with him where it's like, Darko Milchick was a problem and you could cut like two minutes of highlights from him and be like, ah, I kind of see it. He's a lefty. You know, he had that little, little lefty hook. I liked him for this exercise.
- [64:39]
B
Let me interrupt you for just one second. If you put Ben Simmons number one, where's Joel Embiid?
- [64:46]
A
Yeah, I thought about him. He didn't make my list. Because I think physically it's just been one thing after another the entire time. How much does he get blamed for that?
- [64:57]
C
I don't know.
- [64:58]
A
But he had issues coming into the league. He had knee injuries coming out of the gate. Whether he could have done stuff on his own, I don't know. But he also won an mvp. He had some really good years. I don't. To me he's more in that Chris Weber area where it's like, oh, there's a version of this where this is a way better career.
- [65:16]
B
Never played in the Eastern Conference final.
- [65:18]
A
He never did.
- [65:19]
B
Serious.
- [65:19]
C
Can I nominate somebody for your list?
- [65:20]
A
Please?
- [65:22]
C
Lakers center went out, Andrew Bynum. Yes.
- [65:27]
B
Okay.
- [65:28]
A
He was on my list. So he was on my. I'm not sure list because he had.
- [65:32]
C
Some knee stuff he did and some brain stuff.
- [65:37]
A
Well, he definitely. I don't know if he made a lot of friends during the course of his career, but it seemed like his body broke down. But House, I didn't know if it was because he was carrying too much weight. He's one of those centers where it's like. But yeah. 0809 10. That guy was. You were scared of him when they posted him up. I had. This is a tough one for House. I think he belongs on the list now. I know he had some personal problems, but half of the guys in this list probably did. But Steve Francis, who was 26 and 6 and was the focal point of a Tracy McGrady trade and his career was basically over before he hit 30. But I just from the get go when he didn't want to go to Vancouver and it just. It just was never. There was a better player in there somewhere and we never got the career. All right, my next one. I'm still mad at Derek Williams, who I think was the second pick. I think I was really high on him in the draft diaries and I don't understand. He was great in college. He was the perfect stretch for who was athletic. He could be a rim runner but also hit threes. And he's moving into this 2010s era and I still don't know what happened. Really makes me mad. House. We thought we were all in on that dude coming out of college. But remember the Arizona stuff? It was like, how is this guy not going to be an awesome pro? I'm also mad at Jimmer Fredette. I don't know why he couldn't put it together.
- [66:57]
D
Eh.
- [66:58]
A
We're moving into the three point shooting era.
- [67:00]
C
Yeah.
- [67:01]
A
The guy had 30 foot range. He couldn't have been like the 10th man. He couldn't have been Peyton Pritchard. House.
- [67:09]
B
He could have been. He had plenty of chances. Houses.
- [67:12]
A
Bail this house. I gotta give House some red meat.
- [67:15]
B
I'm thinking this through that we don't have. Like, you didn't define the parameters. So, like, is Marvin Williams a disappointment?
- [67:21]
A
No, because I was ready to be disappointed by them. I'll give you some red meat.
- [67:24]
B
All right.
- [67:25]
A
Anthony Davis.
- [67:27]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [67:29]
A
Yeah. Let's get. Let's get frisky. NBA top 75 player in a ring.
- [67:35]
B
Got a ring. That's one. Has one.
- [67:37]
A
Should have been Tim Duncan.
- [67:41]
B
I'm not disappointed by Anthony Davis.
- [67:43]
A
All right. I put him honorable mention. I just want to talk it out. Baron Davis.
- [67:51]
B
Kg. What do you think?
- [67:54]
C
I think he has a couple historic moments. I don't know how high I was of him coming out of ucla. I think he had a decent NBA career, but I can see why people who, who. Who watched him play either early in the NBA thought that he was destined for more than he actually got.
- [68:12]
A
He's on the list for me because I was going to those Clipper games. I thought he was so talented. And then the other. I remember Nash talking once about how Baron Davis was the hardest guy for him to play in the entire league, and he had that whole run and he had good career. He, you know, got a couple big contracts. There was a big game element to him that we saw in the 07 Warriors MAV series where it was like, the bigger the stage, the better he got. And I never thought he was in the right shape for most of his career. He had some knee stuff, but I thought he should have been awesome. I put O.J. mayo on there. And then Vince Carter obviously has to be on this list. Yeah, I just. Even though Vince Carter is going to go to the hall of fame, deserves it. Average 25, 26, 27 a game some year. But it's just never from the heights of that early Toronto stuff when you go all the way through to the end of Toronto to the Nets, then he shows up on Phoenix and he's in Dallas. And it just felt like somebody that should have been the best guy on really good teams for seven, eight years, and it never happened. House, one of our most frustrating players that we would talk about.
- [69:17]
B
Yeah, he never found the situation that was going to give him a chance at a ring. I mean, what was the best team that he played on over his season?
- [69:26]
A
He wouldn't have been in Orlando in 2010. I never understood that he's playing with an all NBA center, the league wasn't in the greatest shape. Right. LeBron's Cleveland, things about to crater. The Celtics were up and down that year and it just felt like. Just felt like somewhere along the stretch it should have happened.
- [69:42]
C
If that's your Logic, is Tracy McGrady a candidate for your list?
- [69:47]
A
Thought about him like if the teammates were the, the supporting cast were so awful. I'm actually in the camp of I would actually defend Tracy versus put him on a list like this. I thought he just played with nobody for years and years and years.
- [70:02]
C
Yeah. I love this game. One of the nerd candidates I'll throw at you is Larry Sanders. The.
- [70:08]
A
Oh, that's a great one.
- [70:10]
C
When we were put, we were starting to do some of the first player tracking studies in the NBA. This guy like started to pop on all these rim protection metrics that we'd never had access to before. And I wrote his paper for Sloan. I was like, this guy's gonna be the best rim protector in the league for the next five or ten years. And he was out of the league by 26 or something and. But he was. I was like, this guy, I'm going to put my flag in here and this guy's going to be the face of the defensive analytics revolution. He never showed up.
- [70:47]
A
I'm still personally disappointed in Keith Van Horn, but technically he also belonged to the 90s. But I don't know why he wasn't 20 and 8 for like 12 years. House is done with this segment. Can I give you my top 10 point guards really quick?
- [71:02]
B
Go ahead.
- [71:03]
A
Talked about this with Zach. We talked about it through the context of the point God, Chris Paul retiring. And I mentioned my top five which is Magic and Curry and Oscar Robertson and Bob Kooz and Isaiah Thomas as my top five. House, do you have notes?
- [71:22]
B
No, no, that's it. That's the list for me as well.
- [71:24]
A
Goldsberg, you have notes.
- [71:26]
C
I can't go against the sports guy on Cousy, but that's the one. I know. I heard you and Zach talking about it. The generational stuff. Everybody's going to read that. I'll take it as listed next five.
- [71:39]
A
At Chris Paul, John Stockton just a hair behind him. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd just a hair behind him. And then Walt Frazier if he counts as a point guard, which I think he does. And I think that's the top 10 we mentioned at Gary Payton level after that, then it moves into Gary Payton's probably the toughest cut. Iverson was not a point guard. So he can't be included. But House, how do you feel about that? Second five, no issue.
- [72:14]
B
I mean, you know, we're doing the all time greats and we have a good like a pretty unimpeachable top 10.
- [72:23]
A
Frazier's the one that got lost to history a little bit. He has the game 7 and 69 is one of the great individual games in the history of the league and wins them a title. He wins two titles. He is probably the best defensive guard of his entire generation. Was a famous, famous big game guy and had good stats and his career went about as long as it should have gone in that era where they're flying coach and they're playing on Converses. So yeah, Gary Payton is the toughest one for me because I think Peyton's peak was probably better than Stockton. There was at least one playoff series where he just murdered John Stockton, right. And it was a really bad matchup and the whole thing. But is there anybody who do you think's the most underrated point guard of all time for you?
- [73:10]
C
Tony Parker, the guy who won four NBA championships, the Finals MVP, led the league in paint scoring as a 62 point guard. And you know, you could say he's a system player or what, but man, he was the best player on that team for a lot of big games. And you know, I'm biased to the silver and black, but Tony, Tony's getting lost for the same reason Tim gets lost. He doesn't talk about himself, he doesn't make a lot of appearances.
- [73:39]
A
He's not on tv. Not on tv, not on tv. Always hopes.
- [73:42]
C
But that's the name where I wouldn't be doing a service to my friends in San Antonio if I didn't bring them up.
- [73:50]
A
So the guy we didn't mention was sga. I don't think SGA is a point guard, but I also don't know what a point guard is anymore because technically he fulfills the position of point guard, but he's not a point guard. He's not like these guys. House and I grew up with like Mo cheeks and tiny Archibald. He's just a different type of player. It's almost like this new version of a guard, right? So he's like on this different list with like Harden and Russell Westbrook and people like that. Yeah, Luca, these high usage rate guards that they fit the role and that the bigger question for me is, is Curry on that list? And Zach and I talked about that yesterday. But House, do you think Curry's an actual point guard in your head? What is he. Is he a guard or is he a point guard? He.
- [74:37]
B
He's more of a guard than a point guard, but it's. It's impossible to. To try and split, you know, to do definitionally what we're. We're trying to accomplish. So just putting him in the top five, we're saying, okay, he's. He's with Magic and he's with. You know, that. That's. That's the right place for him.
- [74:55]
C
What do you think? I have him as a point guard.
- [74:57]
A
I think if you look at Parker's like this too. Parker wasn't like a total point guard, but he was. And to.
- [75:02]
C
To. To piggyback on your point, like, we have to. We have to move the goalpost because the style of the game is changing. And, you know, when Mark Jackson was the coach in Golden State, they ran a lot of traditional pick and roll, and he sure as hell looked like a point guard back then. Then Steve got there, and now they're running through Bogut and Draymond and David Lee and his dribble handoffs, and he's running circles, and that really defined his career. But I think of him as a point guard. But, yeah, the same thing I would say to. To Shea is just like, this is. If we want to continue to compare point guards, we have to say that the definition is growing to include these type of guys, because you know who's not walking through that door is Mo Cheeks. Mo Cheeks isn't walking through that door ever again. We're never going to see, like, the six. One guy dribbles it up, initiates an action, dumps it down to Moses Malone, and there we go, House.
- [75:53]
A
And I love those guys. When we played basketball, we had a couple of guys at Holy Cross. Well, we had. Playing pickup. You always wanted the Mo Cheeks type guys.
- [76:02]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [76:03]
A
Those guys just were looking out for everybody else. Just wanted to let everybody else eat. What can I do, guys, can I make you a plate? Can I cut your chicken for you here? I wonder, as this argument evolves down the road, if we throw away point guard, shooting guard, all this shit, and we just go guards, wings and bigs, and that's where we end up. Because Jokic is. I mean, Jokic is a center, but he's also a guy. I don't even know what the fuck he is anymore. I guess he's just a big. But just the five positions that we grew up with are basically gone, right?
- [76:38]
B
And.
- [76:41]
A
Like Luca's.
- [76:42]
B
The game's different. It's fine.
- [76:44]
A
Luka's a guard, Harden's a guard, Kawhi's a guard. I just think that probably an easier way to think about it, but is it House? How high can I put SGA in the pyramid at this point? What's the number that you'd be happy with? Because he's clearly on it now. Is he level two for you yet?
- [77:07]
B
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.
- [77:10]
A
So that puts him. It's in like the McAdoo, Archibald Joel Embiid, Bernard King Heinson, Arizon Wilkins, Dwight Howard, Russell Westbrook, Anthony Davis area, as.
- [77:22]
B
You say, all those names I get, I grow more and more confident that it's absolutely appropriate to say he's there.
- [77:29]
A
Does he nudge toward like the low 50s, Gary Payton, Paul Pierce area already, or does he in a couple more years? Because almost when you're doing this, it's like his career ends tomorrow. Does he have enough to. So you need two more years.
- [77:45]
B
Okay, well, let's just let. Let the season play out. If they defend the title. If they win 70 games and they defend the title.
- [77:52]
A
Now he's in the 40s. Yeah. If they. If they win two straight titles, he wins the MVP last year, maybe even this year. Now you're in the different tax bracket for this, I think. All right, Kirk, anything else? Any other questions for us before you go?
- [78:06]
C
I would just like to wish you and your family and your listeners in the house family a happy Thanksgiving. Enjoy the football, some basketball in between football and thanks for having me on, Bill.
- [78:17]
A
Kirk, what's your favorite side?
- [78:19]
C
I'm a mashed potatoes guy. A lot of garlic, a lot of gravy, and yeah, I don't get a lot of mashed potatoes. So once a year I really go into it.
- [78:29]
A
House, you're gonna have to be careful this year because the football games are really good. I don't know what you're doing for an eating strategy, but I. You almost have to like, kind of wait for that little stretch between the second and third game. The first two are amazing.
- [78:42]
B
I'm gonna eat all day. I'm just gonna eat all day. There's no real, like, you know, it'll be plate. It'll be a plate an hour.
- [78:49]
A
All right.
- [78:49]
B
Over 12 hours.
- [78:50]
A
Bye to Goldsberry's house. Staying on and we're going to do some football later, guys. Thanks, Kirk. This episode is brought to you by UberEats. Every time I sit down and watch the game, I find myself getting a little hungry. Football and food just go together. Luckily, Uber Eats has game day deals all season long on the food you love. Like right now, you can get a Buy one get one free three piece tenders combo from Popeyes MM Popeyes. Whether you're ordering from your favorite restaurant or getting snacks from the grocery store, Uber Eats has you covered for game day. Order now on Uber Eats promotion available until November 30th. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Chime. A great team avoids dumb penalties, so get Chime on your side to help avoid dumb fees. With Chime you can bank fee free, unlock your paycheck early and with qualifying direct deposits, you can get 1.5% cash back on eligible everyday purchases while building your credit. Start banking smarter today. Sign up for Chime in minutes. Terms and conditions apply. See chime.com for details. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and the secured Chime Visa credit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA Members FDIC optional service and product may have fees or charges. Details@chime.com feesinfo with a qualifying direct deposit. Earn 1.5% cash back on eligible secured Chime Visa credit card purchases on time. Payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. Learn about credit building and more@chime.com all right House, we're doing Ringer 107 picks on a Tuesday afternoon. Thanksgiving. This is way too early. So much can change. But what are we going to do? We got to do it. We're gonna try to concentrate on the Thursday and Black Friday games just cause they're closer and we actually know who's playing and then maybe do some other stuff. We had another disappointing week last week. Two and three. We're two games under.500. I just can't get it going this year House, and I don't know what it is.
- [80:57]
B
We're not making excuses. But you and I spoke and I told you that by the time Sunday morning arrived I was in a different place on at least two of our picks and we had a difference of opinion.
- [81:09]
A
Saints was a classic. We liked the Saints on Thursday.
- [81:12]
B
That's right.
- [81:12]
A
By Sunday it was clear it was an all time stay away pick. Everybody had them. They're minus one and a half with a pretty crappy two and 18 with everybody mobilized behind them and the game played out the way it played out. So we're going to concentrate on some of the games that are a little closer. Okay? Staying away from Rams pants Stop me if you don't want to stay from any, away from any of these Rams, Panthers, Bucks, Cardinals. Don't even know who's starting QB for the Bucks, Titans, Jags, Falcons, Jets. I'm never putting the falcons in Ringer 107 again. I hope they burn in hell. Chargers, Raiders and Broncos. Washington. Is that a possible parlay for you or is it a stay away? Who's, who's playing QB for you?
- [81:57]
B
Almost certainly Marcus Mariota. That, well, they, they, they, they yesterday. That they are characterizing it as extremely unlikely for, for Jaden. I just want to go on the record. I think if he plays any more football this season, I think it's an outrage. I think it's a goddamn debacle. There is no, I think it's a misunderstanding fundamentally of what an asset he is and what the, the risk paradigm. The man's been hurt three different times with three different body parts this season and a different body part with a different injury last season. There is no rationale other than what butts and seats in at the stupid stadium out in Prince George's County. He's not, he doesn't need reps. He's not getting useful reps with this poverty team, with everybody hurt. No Terry McLaurin, the, the, the. No Noah Brown Eckler's been hurt, you know, since the beginning of the season. It just doesn't make any sense to me. So I, I, I, I soundly and loudly reject the idea that, that additional reps are helpful to him. I hope not to see him until the beginning of the 2026 season.
- [83:11]
A
Should I just cut and paste that same monologue when the Celtics start thinking about bringing Jayson Tatum back in March when they're 38 and 39. Viking Seahawks, can we stay away? So it's probably double digits now, 10 and a half.
- [83:29]
B
It's probably Brosmer, right?
- [83:30]
A
Yeah. I don't. What if he's like, okay, I don't, I know.
- [83:34]
B
I don't. I'm in the same boat as you. I was really, really, really. I already bet it. I, I bet Seattle -9 and a half before the news about this. I'm going to be really, I'm not going to make any jokes about the concussion thing because he, he did get.
- [83:50]
A
A joke that he might not have one.
- [83:52]
B
Well, it was, you know, he had the symptoms. On the flight.
- [83:55]
A
Yeah.
- [83:55]
B
On the flight home.
- [83:56]
C
Yeah.
- [83:57]
B
So I'll just.
- [83:58]
A
And he took some hits in that camp.
- [83:59]
B
He took hits, Let there be no doubt.
- [84:02]
A
Dolphins, Saints, Dolphins. Five and a half.
- [84:05]
B
Cannot, cannot.
- [84:06]
A
Staying away completely.
- [84:07]
B
Cannot.
- [84:08]
A
Yeah. Do you like Coward was saying he thought. He thought Purdy was the right handed Tua. It's really first Coward take I've been jealous of in a while.
- [84:18]
B
It's very good.
- [84:20]
A
Keeping me on my toes. I haven't been jealous of a coward take in four years.
- [84:23]
B
The only difference is so far Purdy doesn't really put himself in harm's way running wise.
- [84:29]
A
Coward was bragging on his show that he had better seats than me at a Wrestlemania.
- [84:35]
B
It's possible. Why couldn't he?
- [84:37]
A
There was one where I was with six people and I was in the third row and he was in the first. He called the wrestling fans booger eaters for years and years. Go look it up.
- [84:48]
B
So what? That doesn't mean he can't sit in the front row.
- [84:52]
A
Yeah but that. That was once I've been ahead of him in the. I'm always ahead of him in rows.
- [84:58]
B
You should be on the front row at every event. I don't understand why.
- [85:01]
A
What are you doing for Coward? He can screw off. Go. Go sit with the booger eaters in the third row. See, I'm hoping this turns into a sports blog post because they can just put it. Put us both in the. In the post with the thing. But meanwhile I like Howard but don't tell anybody. Just get your post. Get your aggregation out. Likely's. These are not Thursday Friday games. Browns plus six and a half at home against the Niners.
- [85:32]
B
That's a. We have to play it home Browns.
- [85:35]
A
Is one of our favorite bets. They're just a different team. Home Browns.
- [85:39]
B
I mean the Hash Browns Shedor wasn't incredible but he was fine. And them at home against that maybe.
- [85:48]
A
Less than fine but he wasn't bad.
- [85:50]
B
He wasn't bad. The San Francisco defense, what they were, what they put on display against Carolina it was that that San Francisco handling their business against the Panthers was a thousand percent about how inept the Panthers are. That was. The Panthers insisted on defeating themselves again and again and again.
- [86:12]
A
I did a seven point tease with five teams including the Panthers up to plus 14 and sweat it out and they won.
- [86:19]
B
Oh right. Yeah.
- [86:21]
A
Bryce Young was just. Oh I. What goes on in that dude's head? Would you rather have. Would you rather have J.J. mcCarthy as your quarterback and know that it's not happening or. Or Bryce Young.
- [86:34]
B
No.
- [86:34]
A
Tantalizing with the possibility that it might happen but then over and over again proving that it's not going to happen. I don't know which one's worse.
- [86:41]
B
Definitely Jason McCarthy can't play okay. Yeah, he's worse.
- [86:46]
A
So Browns just, they. They're six and a half. This is like three free points.
- [86:51]
C
Play it.
- [86:52]
A
How is this line at three and a half?
- [86:54]
B
I don't know. Play them. We love the Browns. Browns at home. Miles Garrett might get four sacks.
- [87:01]
A
Another possible is Texans Colts. Texans are getting four and a half in Indianapolis. This is a bet on the Texans defense. I don't know if it's Mills or Stroud. I don't really care. Not sure how good the Colts are as, as the season goes along. The fact that Sal and I talked about it on Sunday. Really. They seem really scared to let Daniel Jones decide the game.
- [87:30]
B
Here's the thing that scares me a little bit about the Houston situation. The Colts have been away from home for a month and all of these games that where they haven't looked great have been outdoor. That game against Pittsburgh, that's an outdoor, you know, not going to let them get out and run thing. Then they went to Berlin outdoor stadium. They put up, they put up a.
- [87:59]
A
Bunch of yards last week in Kansas City.
- [88:02]
B
Two consecutive overtime games also for the, for the Colts now. But finally they're home. They're finally home. They're back to their, their home track. And that secondary, the health they were. That was. They were good. They were. That secondary against the Chiefs was very good. They were not.
- [88:19]
A
That was not the reason. All stuff I had in my head that should I be more scared of them at home with Houston who can't really block with the secondary taking a rise up. And most people probably liking the Texans because of the line because of the way they've been playing counter Texans 10 days rest. Must win for them. I like literally a must win. I don't know if they make the playoffs if they don't win this game. Well, I'll mark it down.
- [88:49]
B
I mean to be fair, the Colts did have a buy in between. It wasn't like they flew from internationally back to the US and immediately played the Chiefs.
- [88:59]
A
I'll mark it down because I thought that was a really bad loss for the Colts like Sal and I were talking about just to go three and out the last four times you had the ball. And it just didn't seem like they trusted Jones. And I think sometimes with your teams and like those are the moments where it's like do you trust this guy or not? It didn't seem like they trusted him.
- [89:23]
B
It's fine to not trust him. You gotta get J.T. the ball. Like we watched the here, you know, we saw the recipe with the. The dumb, dumb Lions. The Lions at least understand that Jameer Gibbs is their secret sauce. And they're like, we're probably going to lose this game to the Giants, but we are going to get you 300 yards from 300 scrimmage yards. Because if we're going to lose, it's going to go down this way. It has to be the exact same with Jonathan Taylor. Go ahead and be cautious, but get that man touches every which way you can.
- [90:00]
A
So what? Maybe staying away from that one.
- [90:02]
B
I just don't love it.
- [90:05]
A
Giants Pats. Giants are getting seven and a half in New England. It's a Monday night game. We went against the Patriots because I try to be like, I'm not trying to be a homer. We wanted the five best picks. We went against the Pats once and we lost.
- [90:17]
B
It was a tough situation. They went to Tampa and they handled their business. It was impressive. That was the one. We went against them. Seven and a half. Is that the number? It's too many points. Is Jameis playing? Is James definitely playing?
- [90:34]
A
I think Jameis is playing.
- [90:36]
B
If Jameis plays, then it's too many points.
- [90:38]
A
You know who's not playing? The entire left side of the Patriots offensive line. You know, it wasn't good even two weeks ago. The Patriots offensive line, you know, it was the best part of their offensive line. The two guys on the left side, the rookies who.
- [90:50]
B
We're not going to have the way to get at the Giants again. You know, we just saw it with the Lions. You got to establish the run. You have to get outside and run on them. Can the Patriots do that? Have we seen that at all this season?
- [91:03]
D
2.
- [91:04]
A
Two issues with this line being this high. One is that I'm worried they're not going to be able to block the Giants at all. Two, even if they have the lead, they're not going to be able to run the ball to keep the lead, which is what we saw in the Bengals game. They should have put that Bengals game away. They could have run the ball. So this line's just too high. The counter would be. You have Jameis. God only knows what that dude, you're betting on him on a Monday night. There could be two pick sixes.
- [91:32]
B
It could be, you know, four and four. Four touchdowns.
- [91:34]
D
Four.
- [91:35]
B
Four picks, two of which are pick sixes. That's what makes them so beautiful.
- [91:39]
A
The Pats have. Look, the schedule has been amazing. They barely beat Cincinnati. They Thursday night against the jets, which they won by 13. That game was closer than it felt. Like and the jets left some plays on the table and really if they were competent at all offensively that would have been closer. Tampa 28, 23 final. But Tampa played really well that game and I just thought that was a good game. Atlanta, they win by one. The last time they've really beaten up a team was Cleveland in week eight. They won 32 to 13. They beat Tennessee the week before. But this is. They're not really like whooping teams because they can't run the ball to protect leads. I also like this line's too high.
- [92:25]
B
Giants have been pretty good on the road. Like they were live 5 double digit.
- [92:31]
A
Leads up the road.
- [92:32]
B
Yeah, they were live to beat many very good teams. Live to beat all of them.
- [92:39]
A
So the other thing with this Pats game, they have a bye week after this week. They have. They're banged up and they got Buffalo the week after. And this just feels like a classic. Can we just sneak through this game? Let's try not to have any more injuries. And anyway marking it down. Bill Steelers is the last one. Bill's at Pittsburgh. Bills are minus three and a half. Bills ten days rest. Steelers missing their left tackle. They're missing Harmon on defense. I didn't think last week was a great game for them. Rogers is apparently coming back even though he's going to have a splint on his wrist. And I don't like the hook, especially in Pittsburgh. But I do want to put the Bills in the tees or a parlay. I would like to discuss that as.
- [93:24]
B
A moneyline leg we could do.
- [93:27]
A
I think we both like the Eagles minus seven against the Bears and we could just do Eagles, Moneyline, Bills plus one and a half and make that one of our picks. So Bill's plus one and a half in Pittsburgh.
- [93:39]
B
The case you have to make For Pittsburgh is 18 years of Tomlin Tomlin in these situations. They can't lose any more games. They're going to. They're going to be out of the playoff picture if they lose any more games. And you know their ability to generate turnovers, especially at home, especially in this dog position. When you sit down and go through the numbers, the trends. Tomlin in this spot at this point in the season, especially three and a half, you have to play. So the right thing to do is what you're guiding us towards which is get away from, don't play three and a half, get away from the hook, do something else. But how can you. Do you really feel like we can trust the Bills? That's my question.
- [94:22]
C
To you.
- [94:26]
A
So I thought about this. The bills are 7 and 4, 11 and 6. Like you're almost in danger. You might not even make the playoffs with how many like 11 and 12 win teams are going to have. They can't really afford any of their losses. Did we overreact to that Houston game? I mentioned this to Sal on Sunday. They're playing on three days rest. They're playing in Houston against the best defense in the league and they almost won by the way. Had the ball in the 10 yard line first down and they couldn't punch it in but they were in the game. It wasn't like yeah, Alan got sacked a bunch of times but that was the best defense. They did only have two days to prepare for it basically. And I don't know, it just feels like we're actually getting the Bills on a nice, kind of on a nice zag situation where people are a little too down on them.
- [95:18]
B
And the market's not though. It's three and a half. The market's kind of telling us.
- [95:22]
A
I don't. We both agree everybody's gonna be like oh, Pittsburgh, three and a half. Tomlin at. You got to take the points. That's what I'm thinking.
- [95:29]
B
The only thing that makes me uneasy is it does seem like Pittsburgh is pretty comfortable with their run game now and it is kind of a two headed monster like both Jalen Warren and Gainwell as a revelation and they're getting catches out of the backfield. They've, they've really done something nice with their, their two headed running back core. And the thing that has beat this Bill's defense all season long is the running game.
- [95:59]
A
All right.
- [96:01]
B
Just want to make sure we're being cautious.
- [96:02]
A
That's advocating a stay away. We still have to come up with five picks. All right. Thursday, Lions, Packers. It sounded like you like the Packers a little bit, but I'm going to force us to take the Lions.
- [96:12]
B
Well, you can do that. I am vehemently opposed to it, so it's just.
- [96:17]
A
Okay, can you make the case? Let's hear it.
- [96:20]
B
I think the version of the Green Bay packers that we saw in the very first game of the season against this Lions team is still present and that they can do the exact same thing to this Lions team. The skepticism around the Lions coming into the season was they had two of their hall of Fame ish, you know, interior offensive linemen, one retired and one plays for another team now. And you know that the changeover at offensive coordinator and defensive coordinator, all of that has Proven to be, you know, factor in making this Lions team look pretty underwhelming against every team with any kind of talent. And I think that this Green Bay defense is, is being underrated. I think that they are. To me they're a top three defense in the NFL, the Green Bay defense. And I think they have no problem whatsoever going into Detroit and, and bullying the Lions. They won in, in 2023. They had the ball last possession last year and lost right at the end. They're not like afraid of going in and this Lions defense was on the football field for 80 snaps. That game went to overtime against, against the Giants. Here's the if you want to get into the trend thing, teams that play on Thursday after playing in an overtime game 6 and 25 against the spread since 2000. 6 and 25 and it's at noon so it's not even like, you know, they're playing nighttime the Lions. So I'm on Green Bay. I've already bet it. I bet the money line. I think they're the better team. I think they're going to win the NFC North.
- [98:10]
A
That was a pretty compelling case House. I don't know what it is about Thanksgiving. Come up with a good counter other than I have no idea where the packers are going when it's third and seven here.
- [98:23]
B
The counter is the packers are also like one Jordan Love falling down the wrong way because of the, you know, he was handing off with his opposite hand because you know, whatever that injury is, if he falls down the wrong way one time.
- [98:38]
A
I noticed that.
- [98:39]
B
Yeah. And you know, we're still waiting for that offense to really wow us now. Emmanuel Wilson, who you picked up, you.
- [98:47]
A
Son of a gun ringer in my ringer fantasy league. Part of my dramatic comeback.
- [98:52]
B
Yeah. Jacob's like, well I'm, I'm looking. I think we're going to play each other. If the playoffs started this week, we would play each other. So I'm trying to look at my who, who I'm likely to end up playing against but Jacobs. I expect the reason that he didn't play on Sunday is so that he could play this game. But what if, what if that's a two headed kind of monster for them because you got to play Wilson so you got to play both I think and that should help Jordan Love. But that would be the counter I think.
- [99:24]
A
So were you advocating Philly Moneyline with Packers plus six and a half?
- [99:30]
B
Oh, I mean that would be fine of course because the Philly moneyline is fine with anything you want to pair it with.
- [99:36]
A
From my perspective, what if we had Eagles, the Eagles minus one and a half and we got that Lions to plus seven and a half.
- [99:48]
B
Fine. Great.
- [99:49]
D
Done.
- [99:49]
A
That sounds pretty exciting.
- [99:50]
B
Awesome.
- [99:51]
A
So you're saying even if the Lions win, which you're skeptical of, it's not a game where they're going to be blowing the packers out, anything like that, you're expecting a tight game or you're expecting the Lions to kick their ass? Yeah, yeah.
- [100:04]
B
I think that the Green Bay has the right personnel to handle the. You know, the Detroit's weapon is Jameer Gibbs because golf has really not been that impressive. We keep waiting. That was a classic. Detroit get right put up 50 point spot against the Giants and they should have lost a football game. So. And it's because they just can't. They don't win at the line of scrimmage the way they used to.
- [100:32]
A
Oh man. So I'm Fando. Packers plus six and a half is minus 235. But plus seven half is minus 330.
- [100:42]
B
They're not giving us over the top.
- [100:44]
A
So it'd have to be Eagles Moneyline with Packers plus six and a half.
- [100:48]
B
Fine, fine. I mean the packers are going to win outright. I've bet on it. I'll accept my fate if they don't. If Jordan Love gets hurt.
- [100:58]
A
Well, your fate last week was you gave us the Saints minus one and a half, which I didn't want to do and that fucking lost. So your fate's been pretty fateful.
- [101:07]
B
So many lessons learned.
- [101:09]
A
What are the lessons?
- [101:10]
B
I mean, that don't bet on Tyler.
- [101:12]
A
Schuck, what's his name?
- [101:15]
B
I thought I was watching Tennessee from last year, watching that game because I was.
- [101:19]
A
Two field goals, they had fucked up. Two fourth and first and goals invested in.
- [101:23]
B
Yeah, like they were bad in every phase. They. They had poor planning, it was a poor scheme, it was poor execution, offense, defense and special teams. It was really. Like I said, I thought we were watching the Titans from last year. It was a Callahan special.
- [101:40]
A
Cowboys, Chiefs. Cowboys are getting three at home. Chiefs, speaking of your overtime stat, they also played overtime on Sunday and I liked. It's funny because I used the logic for liking the Cowboys in this game as part of my calculus.
- [101:56]
B
And didn't.
- [101:57]
A
Use that for the Lions. Packers. Until you reminded me that the Lions also played in overtime. This went from three and a half to three. There's some wiggle room here with a tees too with the Cowboys. That's another one. We could throw in a 7 half I would much rather just take the plus 3.
- [102:14]
B
Not me. I'd rather have the points. I'd rather have the points.
- [102:18]
A
What do you mean?
- [102:19]
B
I'd rather have the extra points over. You know, over seven and a half. I want a bat. I need a back door. Three doesn't give us a back door with Dallas.
- [102:27]
A
Well, one more game. Bengals, Ravens. Bengals plus seven. No T. Higgins. Chase is playing. Burrows playing. I got to watch this team against the Patriots last week. They're not very good. One of the reasons, like the Pats Giants line. Like the Bengals. We made the Bengals defense look like it was pretty confident. I'm not. I'm not sure it is, but I don't like the Ravens either. The Bengals have the worst offensive DBOA since 1978 according to Aaron Shots the Ravens. I don't know what the advanced metric is for. I test this looks like something's wrong, but something looks wrong. Especially with Lamar. I almost want to stay away from this game.
- [103:09]
C
Good.
- [103:10]
B
Please do. Because the correct side is definitely Cincinnati at that number.
- [103:15]
A
Like, I don't want to take Cincinnati.
- [103:16]
B
What evidence is there that of Baltimore winning by margin against a team with a. With a good quarterback? Like, I don't. I don't want to go against Burrow. I mean, obviously there will be a rust factor. There'll be all the stuff. But I just. I mean, these. These two teams, this divisional game. That's a lot of points for a divisional game with all the uncertainty around a borough return.
- [103:42]
A
Well, we only have four picks.
- [103:43]
C
House.
- [103:44]
A
Here's the.
- [103:44]
B
What are they. What are. What are the four?
- [103:46]
A
Packers plus two and a half. Eagles minus two and a half. Parlayed with Cowboys seven plus plus seven and a half. That's like minus 113. Browns six and a half over the Niners. Giants plus seven, half over the Patriots. Then we need one more game. So it's either the Texans plus four and a half or we. Or we. We just blindly take the Steelers. Tomlin infrastructure plus three and a half.
- [104:16]
B
I don't want to take the Bengals.
- [104:18]
A
Plus seven just because it's Thursday and we get to root for it. Let's do that.
- [104:23]
B
That's more fun. We're at the. The stage of the season. Week 13. It's Thanksgiving. I'll be sprawled on the couch. T shirt halfway up my belly.
- [104:37]
A
By the way, this is my Thursday night game.
- [104:39]
B
I know. That's what I mean. I'll be on the couch. Pro 2, protruding belly, t shirt, 3/4 of the way. Barely. Covenant. It ain't going to cover my belly.
- [104:50]
A
I don't think the Ravens are good. Yeah. All right, let's do it. All right. Ringer 107 Lions, as always, presented by FanDuel. House wanted us to take packers plus two and a half against the Lions. So we're doing that. You're basically vowing the packers are going to win this game. This is confidence. I've seen you all year.
- [105:09]
B
True story. I, I, I believe it.
- [105:11]
A
We, we were talking, we did the two for the money rewatch balls and we were talking about that sports advisors era when they dramatically said this is the lock of Thanksgiving and whether we should incorporate that in our own ring or what's on going. The only time we did that all year was that one Browns game, the bad weather game with TUA going to Cleveland where we were like, this is our lock of the year. The Browns against TUA in that one. I don't know if we should start doing that more. And we won. So we're one and oh, and we go lock of the year. So packers plus two and a half is this house's lock of the holidays.
- [105:42]
B
It's, it's the Thanksgiving lock. It's the turkey leg lock of Thanksgiving.
- [105:47]
A
My Thanksgiving lock brings in Black Friday and it is Eagles minus two and a half with the Cowboys parlayed to plus seven and a half. Eagles have to win by three. Cowboys are getting seven half points. We're parlaying those together. We're gonna take the Bengals plus seven against the Ravens because it's too many points. Burrows back. Jamar Chase is back trying to prove to everybody he's, he's learned some lessons. A Bengals defense. Either the Pats offense isn't good or the defense actually looked pretty frisky. They had some goal line stops and they were at least playing hard. There's three Browns plus six and a half at home against the Niners. House and I just feel like the Browns are like home. Browns are like a different. They're like the 33rd NFL team. And then last but not least, we're staying away from Bill Steelers because of the hook. We're staying away from Texans plus four and a half at Indianapolis because we're not sure. Indianapolis at home might have forgotten how special that team is. And we're gonna take Giants plus seven and a half in New England because the line's too high, because the Patriots don't have an offensive line anymore. They can't run the ball. And even if they take a lead, it's going to be hard for them. To extend and move it out. And there's a whole Giants pat's history, and I think it's the right and.
- [107:00]
B
The back door is open if James is the quarterback.
- [107:04]
A
That's true. I hope the patriots win by 40 points, but that's going to be our ringer. 107. The last pick, giants plus seven half all line subject to change. Presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. All right, give us your 2025 Thanksgiving rankings before we go.
- [107:19]
B
Thanksgiving rankings.
- [107:20]
A
Number one thing you're most excited to eat. What is it?
- [107:22]
B
Dark meat. I love to get underneath. It's not just you could take the leg and the leg is fine, but where it connects, that thigh meat, the juicy thigh meat, because it's been sitting in the pan and roasting for hours. And all of the moisture of the turkey is right down to that portion of it. That's the bird butter. That's what I want. I would put my face in it if I had the opportunity. But this is, you know, I understand everybody. That's turkey. Yeah. I had to do turkey. You're missing. It's a rare thing. We don't have it all the time. So try and find the portion of it that is just. It's. It is flavorful. There's a. It's packed full of flavor. Right where I'm describing.
- [108:11]
A
Turkey is the quarterback of Thanksgiving that you try to look for other things that are the most important player in the team, and it's like. No, it's actually the turkey.
- [108:20]
B
It is the turkey.
- [108:21]
A
Everything revolves around the turkey. We don't eat it that often because it immediately puts you in a coma. There's a scene in Beast in Me when the bad guy, Matthew Reese, his character, he's just eating rotisserie chicken.
- [108:34]
B
Oh, I don't know.
- [108:35]
A
Have you seen that show yet?
- [108:36]
B
I don't know it. No.
- [108:36]
A
He just starts eating this chicken, and he's just, like, eating it like an animal. And the only other person I've ever seen do that is you. All right, what's your number two Thanksgiving thing you're excited to eat?
- [108:47]
B
Stuffing. But it's gotta be sausage stuffing, because I love the combination, and it's gotta be a moist stuffing. I don't. I understand when, you know, folks go for that. That. That crispy baked top, but it can have the effect of. Of undermining the moisture, sucking the moisture out. So as long as you can preserve the moisture. But, like, I like big chunks of sausage in there. I like the pow, and I like, you know, a nice bite of Fennel in the, in with the, that, that, that stuffing. And if you want to throw a couple red pepper flakes, if you want to elevate, you know, the spice level, I'm here for it. Because when you put that next to that, that, that, the dark turkey, you know, it's almost takes you in the direction. That dark turkey with the juices, it's a little bit gamey also potentially. And then you then get that sausage and the pop of that sausage, the way that, that, that eat and the moisture of the bread along with it. Those are bites. Those are, those are world class. Once a year, revel in it bites.
- [109:57]
A
Big chunks of sausage was in the text between Olivia Nuzzi and RFK Jr. But I can't remember who texted it. All right, my favorite, I'll let you go again for your third pick. My favorite is stuffing of everything. And for all the reasons you laid out, I don't like when it's too dry. I like when it's a little moist. I like putting gravy on it. I like taking the turkey. I don't eat the stuffing by itself. I always have the stuffing bite with the turkey with some cranberry. And as I say every year, and people think I'm a serial killer. I still like the canned cranberry over like the fancier homemade. Give me the old school. Buy it at any grocery store. I still like that cranberry jelly round, whatever fucking however you describe it, I still like that the most.
- [110:44]
B
We've come all the way around, people. Now what I see is folks, even high end chefs, saying, advocating, go ahead. And if you want to make your fufu, do it. But also make sure you serve a canned version next to it because it's nostalgia and it is tasty.
- [111:01]
A
It's still tasty. Carve it out. It also has a little better consistency. So you put it on the stuffing, scoop it in with the turkey and a little gravy, and it's like, that's the best bite I'm gonna have. Number two is my, My mom's. The, the sweet potato casserole thingy she makes with that. She puts like, like it's basically a diabetes special. It's like there's pecans on it. It's. It's brown sugar. It's cooked, it's. There's marshmallows in it. It's like you just, you just go into a coma basically after you have it.
- [111:32]
B
Is it dessert or is it served as a side?
- [111:35]
A
No, it's a side.
- [111:36]
B
Yeah. So I, I Mean, the funny thing.
- [111:37]
A
Is we have sweet potatoes too. We, we do double. We have the mashed potatoes with the sweet potatoes.
- [111:41]
B
Yeah, mashed potatoes and sweet potato is a fairly traditional, you know, double dose. I think that.
- [111:47]
A
What's your, what's your number three?
- [111:51]
B
I don't want to be told that this is a cop out. It's gravy. Because gravy plays such a crucial role to elevating every aspect of what's on the plate. If you've got mashed potatoes on the plate, then you got to have the gravy. If you've got the juicy turkey that I'm talking about. But the gravy just, it elevates it. It pushes like it takes. It's a, it's, it's a glue guy. He, the gravy plays that glue guy role and it elevates everything. And you know, any vegetable you're gonna have on the plate, gotta have it, you know, have the gravy available to dip, you know, if there's green bean. I mean, I'm not, I don't do the green bean casserole with the mushroom soup. I like kind of a roast cassette.
- [112:33]
A
My mom's making that. The green bean casserole. Yeah.
- [112:36]
B
That's great.
- [112:36]
A
Yeah. Because she has traditional green beans or green bean casserole.
- [112:40]
B
You could have both.
- [112:41]
A
What you find is that anything with casserole in it, I'm probably gonna eat at Thanksgiving.
- [112:46]
B
Yes, yes. For sure.
- [112:48]
A
My wife's trying some cream spinach thing that I didn't even really fully understand. That's from a steakhouse. That vibe. Yeah. I don't, I didn't really understand it. It just sounds like more calories, but apparently that's happening as well.
- [113:00]
B
Okay.
- [113:00]
A
You know the Italians.
- [113:02]
B
Yeah.
- [113:03]
A
This is my, my beloved Aunt Jen, now deceased, but, but you know, it was multi courses, like to start with the. This is for Easter too, where you. There's a lasagna.
- [113:13]
B
Yeah. Oh, sure.
- [113:14]
A
And then a ham and then Thanksgiving. But that's like. I don't know. That's fucking crazy. Like, I look back, I'm like, how do you have a ham and a turkey? That's absolutely bonkers.
- [113:26]
B
I don't think it is. So like my household tradition, the thing. And I've, I've put pictures of it up. My mother for, you know, 50 years makes an Anna pasta with, with rolled Italian music, meats, cheeses, olives.
- [113:43]
A
We have that sometimes too. Yeah.
- [113:45]
B
The, the, the, the vegetables in the brine, like the whole, that whole spread maybe with a Little bit of tuna in the middle. Flake tuna.
- [113:54]
A
Any other. What's your favorite. What's your fourth after gravy? Any other ones?
- [113:59]
B
No. I mean, we covered. Okay. We covered the most important.
- [114:02]
A
How about favorite pie?
- [114:05]
B
Definitely a thousand percent sweet potato. I love sweet potato pie. I, I mean, you know, it's, it's. You're still in the same basic kind of orientation with pumpkin and I. Why would I say anything bad about pumpkin pie? But sweet potato pie is superior.
- [114:20]
A
One of the biggest tragedies I've had since I moved to LA. It's not in the top three, but it's in the top 10. Was when my wife's friend Robin, who made the porch pies.
- [114:29]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [114:30]
A
And she moved back to the south and we don't have porch pies for Thanksgiving anymore, man. She would make the chocolate chess and.
- [114:36]
B
The chocolate chest was outrageous.
- [114:37]
A
And the sweet potato, and it was the fucking best. And now it's just gone. And I haven't had a pie since. That's like. It was always the number one. I don't know why she just didn't stay here and open a porch pie shop.
- [114:50]
B
You could call her up and ask her to send you.
- [114:52]
A
Maybe I should make a move back. She does an extra £10 for me, though.
- [114:55]
B
You could, you can just ask her to make one and put it in a FedEx.
- [114:59]
A
It was so good. What's your least favorite Thanksgiving dish or dessert? Do you have one that you're just out on it?
- [115:06]
B
I don't tend to eat the rolls. I don't mess with the bread because at what point.
- [115:11]
A
Why is there bread on Thanksgiving?
- [115:12]
B
I'm looking forward to every other aspect.
- [115:14]
A
Bread and the stuffing.
- [115:16]
B
Yeah, exactly. That's, that's, that's right. And I, I want like my calorie allocation. I want it to the stuff that's like the once a year stuff. It's like your, your green bean casserole. Your, your, your, your mom sweet. But, like, let me have. It's only once a year that you're gonna have that. Why am I having a Parker House roll or. Those rolls are good. They play. You can yell, they stop up the gravy and stuff. But that's. I'd rather have the gravy on the other things.
- [115:41]
A
I'm always out on rolls. To me, rolls are the run into the middle of the line on the first down. Like, what's the point? We're still, we're still gonna have to throw it to get a first of epa. I might get an Offensive lineman hurt. Million things that could go wrong. What's your eating schedule on? So you're just eating constantly?
- [116:00]
B
Yes, I, I, I'll wake up, I'll start eating savory. I'll have coffee in the morning, whatever. The first game comes on at noon and I'll have, I'm, I'm traveling this year. I'm not going to be with my mom, so I won't. My mom's Anapasta is like 12:30. It's, it's, it's halfway through the second quarter of the first game. That's the house tradition. But I will figure out, you know, a way to get a version of it and just, I'll, I'll start having plates starting at halfway through the second quarter because I'm.
- [116:30]
A
How many hours since your last meal before Thanksgiving do you try to go like 15, 16 hours?
- [116:36]
B
No, it doesn't matter at this stage, you know, we're professionals. I don't need to like starve myself in advance.
- [116:44]
A
I like to do early dinner the night before, nice empty stomach, then move in right around that first end of the first game. West coast time.
- [116:55]
B
Great.
- [116:56]
A
But then the second meal around 7:30 range. I'm not an eat all day. I'm like, eat. Can't believe how much I ate. I want to throw up. Should I throw up? Where's the Tums?
- [117:09]
B
I don't want you to do that.
- [117:10]
A
I'll have a glass of red wine.
- [117:11]
B
So much that you have to, where you feel that way.
- [117:14]
A
And then the second, the second wave around seven before you think you're full.
- [117:19]
B
Before you, before your brain tells you you're full, stop eating. That's how you can eat once from you.
- [117:24]
A
You've overate more than anybody I've ever met in my life.
- [117:27]
B
I can eat all throughout the day.
- [117:29]
A
Remember you passing in a phone booth that didn't have a phone once because you ate too much?
- [117:34]
B
What's the thing that defines me though? Everybody else has stopped eating.
- [117:38]
A
True.
- [117:38]
B
And I continue to eat.
- [117:39]
A
Long distance runner. There you go. Yeah. Like the rabbits in the marathon. They come and go and you're just still chugging away, putting the eight, eight minute miles together. I can't wait. I can't believe we have three interesting football games in a row.
- [117:54]
B
It's going to be outrageous.
- [117:55]
A
This hasn't happened since we were like in college.
- [117:57]
B
How about four? You know, we, we, yeah. All Bears fans are going to be super mad because we've been. I'll put my hand up. I've been down on the Bears all season super skeptical and we just like said Eagles in Moneyline. Eagles we're not. We gave no, no, no discussion whatsoever of the Bears.
- [118:16]
A
Here's why we didn't give a discussion. Here are their last 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 wins. They beat Geno Smith, Mariota Rattler, Flacco, the Dart Wilson combo, J.J. mcCarthy and Mason Rudolph. Congratulations.
- [118:34]
B
I mean, it's literally what Washington did last year. Wash, that was Washington's run.
- [118:38]
A
I don't think you're going to beat the Eagles after a loss on Black Friday at some weird time of the day in Philadelphia. I just don't see it happening. Yeah, but you might keep it close. That's why we did the money line. Anyway, happy Thanksgiving. Best to you and yours. Great to see you House. Thanks.
- [118:54]
B
Amazing. Great job. Happy Thanksgiving everybody.
- [118:57]
A
This episode is brought to you by Black Friday Game Day and Prime. It's Bill Simmons Black Friday Game day coming to prime and it will be an epic day of live sports. Black Friday football at the center of it all with the Chicago Bears taking on the Philadelphia Eagles at 3pm Eastern. This might be an actual round one playoff game. That's followed by the final night at Emirates NBA cup group play and a doubleheader starting with the Bucs and Knicks at 7pm Giannis in New York again in the Mavericks and Lakers at 10pm Boy, I wish those two teams had a history. The whole day starts with the return of the Capital One skins game as Four Leaf PGA golfers face off with $4 million on the line. Black Friday Game day tees off with the Capital One skins game at 9am EAs before the Big Bears Eagles football game at 3pm and it all culminates with a double dose of Emirates NBA cup action featuring Bucs Knicks at 7pm and Mavs Lakers at 10pm Only on Prime. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Without Internet, you wouldn't be able to hear my beautiful voice right now and businesses wouldn't be able to stay connected the way they need. So what if I told you you can get free business Internet forever with Spectrum Business. Just add four mobile lines, get business Internet, advanced wifi and security shield for free for life. No contracts, no added fees. All you have to do to find out how you can get free Spectrum Business Internet forever@spectrum.com freeforlife. That's where you go. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right, Chris Ryan is here. We're taping this on a Monday. We just did a Rewatchables with Sal that by the time you hear this, went up, did two for the money. And then we thought because we were sitting here, we'd talk about Landman, which I know you're excited about, but very much. I want to talk about Philly sports, which you're not as excited about.
- [120:43]
D
No. Because I don't like it when you put me in the Philly cuck chair. I want you to bring me on when you want to celebrate Philadelphia. I don't always want to have to.
- [120:49]
A
Would you cut the Philly cuck chair? Yeah.
- [120:51]
D
I don't always want to come on and be like, Joe Allen beads knee is not doing great, you know, or like.
- [120:55]
A
But that sixer step's going great.
- [120:57]
D
The sixer stuff is there. My heart, I love them so much. I have such an uncomplicated relationship.
- [121:02]
A
We'll start there. Let's talk about this rejuvenated kind of Sixers future. Even though you have two of the worst contracts in the league, but somehow everybody's good with it.
- [121:10]
D
Yeah. And also, like, even the two guys who have the worst contracts seem to be enjoying themselves, which I would too, if I was making that money and sitting on a bench for most of the time. But the young core of this team is. Is so delightful and so awesome to watch.
- [121:23]
A
Moving up the ladder for most popular Phillies sports athletes in a while.
- [121:27]
D
If I watch him without my glasses on and I see the black uniform, it looks Iversonian sometimes. Come on. It kind of does. Like, he's so electrifying.
- [121:37]
A
The minutes is crazy terrifying with the way he plays.
- [121:41]
D
Yes.
- [121:41]
A
Where it's just like, this dude's going to do this 41 minutes a night. And the answer is yes. He actually is. He's been. I. I mean, he's a second team, all NBA guy, maybe even in the running for first team right now.
- [121:51]
D
Yeah. And they have just like. Like, they're obviously just scraping together a team from what they have in terms of, like, it's Maxi and Edgecomb and Grimes. And then like whatever night they have, it's like Barlow or whoever they have to throw out there in the front court. But I don't know, it's just like they play fun games. They. It's the Cardiac Sixers. A lot of tight games, a lot of clutch games.
- [122:13]
A
So looks been swinging a little bit.
- [122:15]
D
Yeah. And it's. It's a really good leap pass. I mean, Edgecomb came a little bit down to earth, but not like so much that you're like, oh, that was a fluke like, he's obviously gonna be a really, really amazing player.
- [122:27]
A
Any kanipple. Should we have taken Knippo at 3?
- [122:30]
D
I don't have any knipple. Should we have taken Knipple?
- [122:32]
C
Okay.
- [122:32]
A
Yeah, I want to make sure I.
- [122:34]
D
A little bit of a knipple bubble.
- [122:36]
A
Cannibals made the most threes of any rookie ever through 12 games or something.
- [122:40]
D
Sounds great.
- [122:41]
A
Nipple's doing great. No, I like Edgecom. That's a. That's a good battle. I mean, it's a great.
- [122:45]
D
It's a great rookie class.
- [122:46]
A
Ben and I bought a bunch of boxes from this class for cards because I love this class. And I didn't even realize how deep it was gonna be. But it's like this has a chance to be one of the generational classes. The Edgecomb with Maxi, I think pushes it over the top. Cause they're these two guys that clearly complement each other in the best possible ways. And you can see this is the foundation of. We can now build a team around this. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Like, I know what this is now for the next seven years. But you just have to wait out the embiid piece.
- [123:19]
D
Yeah. And Edgecombe really excites me because even when he's got games where he's not fully involved or it's not going right for him, he doesn't quit on the game. Like, he'll still do lots of little things.
- [123:30]
B
Yeah.
- [123:30]
D
Grab an offensive rebound, do a hit ahead, pass. Like, it's just. He's just a really fun basketball player to watch.
- [123:36]
A
Yeah, he can. There's some rookies that if they're not doing well from a scoring standpoint, they're pretty much useless in the game. But he's still around. Like, he rebounds, he moves without the ball. The maxi thing, you know, I don't know what the sample size would have to be before we start talking about him in the territory with Brunson and Mitchell and Booker and people like that. But it's.
- [124:00]
C
It's.
- [124:01]
A
We're probably like 10 more games away from him just being in that group.
- [124:05]
D
Especially if he keeps playing games where he's the best player on the court on both teams. You know what I mean?
- [124:09]
A
Like, everyone says he's the best fucking guy. Zach was saying this forever.
- [124:13]
D
So beloved in Philly.
- [124:14]
B
Yeah.
- [124:15]
D
Like, is already probably. I'd say top two or three, if not the number one Philly athlete right now. So weird.
- [124:22]
A
It's so weird how all this works out where you think it's going to be it's the process with Embiid and Simmons. And then Maxi's this post lottery pick. Right. A bunch of teams pass on him.
- [124:35]
D
Weird.
- [124:36]
A
And that ends up being the guy.
- [124:37]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [124:38]
A
That ends up being the guy you're gonna have for 15 years.
- [124:40]
D
I actually just feel bad for Embiid because he can't participate in this, you know, or like he can't participate in it consistently. Like, you know, he was getting back or not anywhere close to his old self. But numbers wise was doing pretty decently per minute. And PG had like a really nice game the other night. I think it was the A. He was on a minutes limit against the Bucks, but had like a really good.
- [125:01]
A
Like, I saw some pg, by the way. He's not a disaster.
- [125:03]
D
No, of course.
- [125:04]
A
Like, he'll definitely help whatever's going on.
- [125:06]
D
And they like, are those guys ever going to be healthy together?
- [125:09]
A
Right.
- [125:09]
D
With Maxi, Edge, Coleman, Grimes?
- [125:11]
A
Probably not. Right? I mean, they. So OKC has your pick, but the team's going to probably be good enough. There's already. There's three teams in the east that have already said we're done.
- [125:22]
D
Yeah.
- [125:23]
A
And Charlotte will be the fourth. I don't know what. The Celtics. The Celtics keep winning every time. I think they're about to go in a seven game tail spot.
- [125:30]
D
I thought we were talking about Philadelphia.
- [125:31]
A
Well, but it seems like there's 11 east teams. Right.
- [125:34]
D
So you're trying to decide who's real. Yeah.
- [125:36]
A
Even if Philly was like, you know what, we're actually going to tank so that we don't want to give okc.
- [125:40]
D
I think.
- [125:40]
A
I think it's too late.
- [125:41]
D
I don't think they can like, afford to tank with the fan base. I think they have to play with Max.
- [125:47]
A
If you have Maxi playing like this, you can't tank. No, you can't shut that down. I got to bring it up. Do we have to give Darrell some props here?
- [125:58]
D
Yes.
- [125:58]
A
Darrell is being fired for two years. But he picked Maxi. Right. Or was Maxi already there? No, he picked Maxi.
- [126:06]
D
I think he picked Maxie.
- [126:07]
A
Yes, he picked Maxi.
- [126:08]
D
He picked Edgecomb.
- [126:09]
A
He picked Edgecomb and he finds good. By the way, he tanked so that they would be in position. They audibled quickly enough that it actually paid off, which I'm not sure everybody would have done all the side stuff. Like the Grimes trade was a great trade.
- [126:25]
D
Yes. And then holding his powder dry to like sign Grimes for like the number that they got him back. Like, not blinking when Grimes was like, I'm 25 million a year and getting freaked out by that and, like, just kind of waiting that out was really good.
- [126:38]
A
The mistake was not trading Embiid when he could have. I think there was a moment with the Knicks pretty. When before they went all in on the towns and like, this whole CA team that they have now. I think especially because Embiid was their old client before they traded all those picks for Bridges. I think there was a monster Embiid trade to make.
- [126:58]
D
I know that this is.
- [126:59]
A
He was a house of cards. He was.
- [127:00]
D
It's an antiquated, anachronistic idea or whatever. But, like, trading your franchise player in division is very. Would have been. That would have been a real death sentence for Daryl, I think.
- [127:10]
C
Would it.
- [127:11]
A
Would you have been like, why are we doing this? Or would you have been like, oh, that's pretty smart?
- [127:14]
D
No, I just would have been like, I can't believe I have to watch Joel Embiid go to, like, the Eastern Conference finals or the finals on the Knicks after all the years that we kind of like, emotionally invest in it.
- [127:22]
A
That makes sense. Well, there are no, you know, these contracts, whatever. You know what the heart of the team's going to be. You know, you have like, one of the best 12 to 15 assets in the league in maxi. So also you wait out the NBA.
- [127:36]
D
With or without Joel. If we make the playoffs, it's a, A. It's like a really cool, like, you probably would rather not see them in the playoffs kind of teams.
- [127:44]
A
Yeah. Especially if Embiid puts it together for like five to ten, like, if they.
- [127:48]
D
Wind up being the eight seed, like, or the seven seed, like, would. Is Cleveland or Detroit gonna be a little nervous to play them?
- [127:57]
A
I kind of feel that way about the Celtics. Oh, well, just like if Tatum comes back in mid February.
- [128:03]
D
Right.
- [128:03]
A
And they're able to get, like, when.
- [128:05]
D
You decided on the number or the record that you would accept him coming back versus being like, just take a year off, bro.
- [128:11]
A
They're hitting this danger zone with this season. Like, even if they started tanking now, everybody's done so much work on the tanking ahead of them. I don't know how they pass some of these teams. Three teams in the east that you're not catching now.
- [128:25]
D
Right.
- [128:26]
A
Indiana is just going to come up with all kinds of reasons to lose games from now on. And then the other two are terrible. I don't know unless there's some sort of injury. Memphis. I'll be interested to see what happens with them where they throw the hat in the ring. But the Utah will at some point start sure going backwards. But then some of these other teams, like Phoenix was a team I thought was going to be in the bottom eight and they're not. They're not probably there yet. There's Dallas I still don't believe is going to be a tank team.
- [128:55]
D
No, it's like Kings. Pelicans.
- [128:59]
A
Pelicans are the one because they're going to play their young guys. But they don't have their pick.
- [129:02]
D
That pick goes to Memphis. Right.
- [129:04]
A
That pick goes to Atlanta.
- [129:05]
D
Oh, Atlanta.
- [129:06]
A
Yeah. So there's still some tanking stuff up in the air, but I thought the tailspin. The Celts had this awful loss to Brooklyn on Friday and I was like, here we go.
- [129:14]
D
Oh, you went to that game, right?
- [129:15]
A
No, my dad did. He was like furious. He said it was one of the worst games he's been to this decade. And. And then they. Orlando doesn't play any of their guys and they win on a Sunday. So I think it's a zigzag situation. But this draft, I think the more people watch the draft they're going to go nuts. What's your. What's been your favorite old school CR kind of NBA story through five weeks? Not kind of the bomber stuff. Like are you like deep, deep. Damon Jones in it right now?
- [129:46]
D
Old school CR at like. Like a kind of like a dirty story or kind of like a feel good story Dirty. I think it's just watching what's happening. The Clippers. Yeah. And just like on and just how even if Harden scores 51 they're just in a dogfight every night. And not that I wish this on them but it is. It kind of almost feels like a throwback season of like these just really. There's a couple really gross bad teams really early. Like the Kings thing is just like almost unwatchable on a night to night basis.
- [130:16]
A
And then somehow they beat Denver.
- [130:18]
D
Yeah, I know.
- [130:19]
A
Right as it felt like it was an all time slip away for them.
- [130:22]
D
Yeah. It doesn't feel like a lot of teams can other than Oklahoma and Detroit and a couple other places they. They can't get any traction. Like even Jokic coming out and being like we're not as good as we think we are.
- [130:32]
A
Right.
- [130:32]
D
And Gordon getting hurt. It kind of puts a pause on their season. The Golden State stuff is so strange. Butler already starting to kind of do crypto quotes about people defending a strange.
- [130:44]
A
Strange year so far and nobody seems to think they practice. So I'm looking at the standings. Brooklyn, Indiana and Washington are all three wins and less. Charlotte's 4 and 13. So those are four tank teams. New Orleans is 2 and 15. I don't see that changing. Sacramento's 4 and 13. This is on Monday. Then it goes Dallas, Clippers, Utah, Memphis. Probably two of those fall, but yet the league's so deep. Now these teams that you think, oh, they're probably going to suck, but then you watch Phoenix and they have like a bunch of NBA players in their team like Grayson Allen, Mark Williams, Royce o' Neill playing together and they're playing hard and they seem like they give a shit about each other. I'm the most interested in this whole, the wherever this gambling story goes.
- [131:31]
D
Really?
- [131:32]
A
Yeah. Wind Horse did a big Damon Jones feature today, which I read, obviously. Yeah, he's just cross paths with a lot of teams and a lot of people and you know, I, I depending on how much he knows like that I, I keep thinking about good fellas like Henry Hill flips at the end.
- [131:51]
C
Right.
- [131:51]
D
So is Damon supposed to be Maury in this case?
- [131:54]
A
I think, I think he's Henry Hill.
- [131:56]
D
Yeah. Okay.
- [131:57]
A
It's like, oh, no, they got Damon. I just don't know where it goes. And the Chauncey thing is nuts. I feel like we haven't talked about this enough. This guy coached the first game of the year. We haven't seen him since. He's being like arraigned. He's in all these games. But I feel like there actually hasn't been enough like reporting about this. Maybe because we can't find what the actual facts are. But I think this is a bonkers story.
- [132:19]
D
Yeah. Is it my imagination or is the NBA's been pretty like, like poker faced about this? Like they're just like, we're investigating. Like there's not been a, we're in a crisis moment. Like we need to have like an independent investigation into this. Like, are they doing that? Like, I don't feel like we've seen a lot of like Adam Silver press conference, Adam Silver TV interviews about this.
- [132:39]
A
Stuff because I think it's more contained to the poker games.
- [132:42]
D
Right.
- [132:43]
A
But if there's situations where people have information they're passing along, it's the thing that the league can't police. But I think for the most part, pretty good NBA season so far. The games have been really good.
- [132:53]
D
They have been.
- [132:53]
A
Denver, Houston on Friday night was spectacular.
- [132:56]
D
The injuries suck. But I think that they're pretty, they're looking, they're pretty soberly at, like, look, the, like the sports just changed so much in the Last couple of years that these guys.
- [133:06]
A
Yeah, but they. They have to. I said this all the time. They have to cut games out of the schedule. We're at that point now. I think it's too hard to play basketball now. I've been to four games in four different arenas and it's the thing that jumps out all the time, like how hard these guys are going and they're.
- [133:21]
D
Covering so much of the floor compared.
- [133:23]
A
To the NBA we grew up with. Where. And I know Eddie Johnson doesn't want to hear it, but I just. You can watch any of those games on YouTube.
- [133:30]
C
Yeah.
- [133:30]
A
There's a certain type of body that you were able to jog around, take some plays off. There's a lot of standing around, a lot of posting up. It was more physical, but you were more in danger of like having your nose broken.
- [133:40]
D
Sure.
- [133:40]
A
You weren't in danger of like having this. All this Achilles calf stuff, Davis getting hurt and then them. Now teams realizing like, hey, this could lead to this. Yeah.
- [133:53]
D
So they're.
- [133:54]
A
This feels relatively new to me.
- [133:56]
D
The amount of like, probably pre emptive, like, let's pull this guy out for a couple weeks. Cause he's in the red zone. It seems like they're taking it really seriously, especially after Halliburton and Tatum.
- [134:08]
A
How about all the streaming stuff with Amazon, Peacock, espn, all these different, like, just figuring out where games are on. I end up just going to the NBA app to fit to. Because that will send you to the game anyway.
- [134:20]
D
Yeah, I mean, I. I have enjoyed enough the league pass experience on Amazon so far. But I think when it gets into the national games and when it's like, is this on Peacock? Is this on NBC? Is this on? It just. It's kind of sad. Like, I don't think that we like necessarily deserve to have every single basketball game for free. I mean, that's not how we grew up. You would basically watch your team. And I've. I've tried more or less just like watching the Sixers as much as I possibly can. So I've probably watched, I don't know, like 10 Sixers games, 13 Sixers games. So I'm trying to keep it like more like as Sixers play people. That's how I see them. But it is really frustrating when you're home on like a Wednesday night and you're just like, oh my God, you need like all these different services just to get like a complete picture of the league.
- [135:07]
A
Yeah. I got a mailbag question that I didn't use from somebody who said Is the NBA now being marketed to the 1%?
- [135:14]
D
Right.
- [135:16]
A
If you get the League Pass, it's like 160 bucks. Right. But you get. I think you get all the games.
- [135:21]
D
Yeah. There's some blackout rules, but yes.
- [135:24]
A
Yeah, I, I would say the NFL is more guilty that the, the Sunday ticket is like three times the size of that.
- [135:32]
C
Right.
- [135:32]
A
Even though they have some games on for free. But I just think this is the business of sports now. Could they maybe all charge less and then make less money? Sure, sure.
- [135:43]
D
But they're not going to do that.
- [135:44]
A
Guess what? They're not doing that. It's the same reason we have 82 games and not 72. Who was I talking to the other day? Oh, man. I would give this person credit about. They never talk about making the NBA schedule longer, which is how you know it's too long. Because if they could, nobody's like, could we get this to 86? People would be like, what are you guys doing?
- [136:07]
D
They could do. Was the NBA Cup.
- [136:09]
A
What do you think?
- [136:09]
D
Do you think the cup's going to.
- [136:10]
A
They.
- [136:11]
D
Are they going to keep doing it or do you think that they're going to.
- [136:13]
A
Oh, yeah, Amazon bought in.
- [136:14]
D
Yeah.
- [136:15]
A
I just don't know what the answer is to get people to actually care other than, well, the courts are weird.
- [136:20]
D
Right.
- [136:20]
A
But like, do you care?
- [136:22]
D
I don't know. I don't think that the group stage stuff is working. I think that people in Champions League, you know, they've changed the group's. The group model significantly in the last couple of seasons and it's helped a little bit. But I think that if the NBA probably wants to make this like a huge product, they, they might have to introduce elimination earlier, which I don't know if the teams would go for.
- [136:47]
A
What do you mean? Like, if you lose the first game.
- [136:50]
D
To whoever, you're just gone, you're gone, you're done. Now you might have some teams basically taking the cup. Cause they're like, cool. Maybe we get some nights off here and there.
- [136:58]
B
Yeah.
- [136:58]
D
But I just feel like if you want to make this exciting, you should introduce the idea of it being tournament basketball. You shouldn't make it just like another game and they're tied 11 in Group D with points differential coming into play. Like, that doesn't really like stir people up that much.
- [137:13]
A
Yeah. It's year three and I still don't know why the players ultimately care other than the extra money. Yeah. And that's, that's really it. But ultimately you want to make the best players in the team care. I'm sure they care a little bit, but it. You don't. Hey, everyone keeps sending me the draft pick idea and I just don't think the players would ever care. Oh, if we win this.
- [137:34]
D
Oh, could my GM get another draft pick to draft my replacement?
- [137:37]
A
Right. Why would that ever be an incentive? I did think of one thing though. I'll test drive this with you.
- [137:44]
D
Okay.
- [137:45]
A
With the cup, the problem is I can't figure out how you would do the tiers. But if it's a team that wins the cup and it's one of the 10 best teams in the league, when they win the cup, they're automatically guaranteed a four seed in their conference.
- [138:01]
D
Interesting.
- [138:02]
A
So they know from that point on we're at least home for round one because we won the Cup.
- [138:07]
D
Right.
- [138:07]
A
But you have to be in the top 10. If you're not in the top 10, if you're from 11 to 20 at the time of the cup, you're guaranteed a playoff spot. You're guaranteed the sixth seed.
- [138:20]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [138:21]
A
And then if you're from the 21 to 30 range, you're guaranteed to be in the play in. In the seven seed no matter what happens. Yeah. You're guaranteed the home game seven seed spot. Even if you're like New Orleans and you're 2 and 15, you win now you get to be in the seven speed you can actually control your play in Destiny.
- [138:41]
D
Would that affect the New Orleans draft slot though?
- [138:47]
A
Wouldn't affect it.
- [138:48]
D
It wouldn't. Cause the record would still be so basically encouraged New Orleans to essentially throw every game that they have left. Cause then you get into the play in, but you also get the number one pick or have the best odds of Getting the number one pick is.
- [138:59]
A
The 21 to 30 teams would never win the Cup. So it's usually going to be the best teams anyway. So if you're like, I don't know, think you're like the Bucks or you're Cleveland, it's like you might not actually be a top five seed or you might actually be. Now it's like I'm guaranteeing being a four seed. I just think it would be a fun.
- [139:19]
D
I just think they should run it more like the league cup or the FA cup in, in premier in England, English football, where it's just like on the. There's. There are certain weekends that are cup weekends and if you lose, you're out. And I think, you know, they, you know, obviously they have like, if you draw, you have a replay for the Fa Cup. But you wouldn't do that in basketball. But I think it would be cooler if there was just a little bit more danger involved.
- [139:43]
A
If it was a 60 game schedule and we had the cup, I think it would work so much better.
- [139:47]
D
Yes.
- [139:48]
A
There's just too many games. It's hard to be in. The whole reason the playoffs matter, because people care about it. I still feel like at least it's a little different. It accomplished the objective of in December, in November, be like, oh, yeah, that's this game. It kind of means, yeah, that Denver.
- [140:06]
D
Houston game on Friday was fun. The red court, like pretty high level basketball.
- [140:13]
A
And then Portland was next and they were in that. And I was looking at that bracket. I'm like, whoa, that's quite a bracket. But wasn't that guy was texting you, like, do you see group C? Yeah, group C is loaded.
- [140:23]
D
Yeah, that's the group of death.
- [140:25]
A
Yeah. Speaking of death, Landman, our favorite show's back. We've seen two episodes of season two. And so Jon Hamm in January, when we were trying, we saw him for the fantasy football thing and we were like, are you coming back? Cause it was unclear if his character died or not. He's like, no, no, I'm done. And he said how Taylor Sheridan had set this whole thing up. So Demi Moore was in a few scenes in season one and just seemed like, why is she in this?
- [140:52]
D
Yeah, why is she swimming laps in the background of this scene?
- [140:54]
A
And he was saying, because Taylor Sheridan set this up. Season one was my season and then season two is the Demi season.
- [141:01]
D
Right.
- [141:02]
A
I think she's been awesome.
- [141:04]
D
She's been a lot of fun.
- [141:06]
A
Her. Her first couple scenes in the first episode I thought were homeless.
- [141:11]
D
She's just doing Jon Hamm too. And it was like in a very fun way, but where she's just like talking about the Serengeti and how she's gonna underbid people's leases and all this stuff. And the only difference between me and my husband is I'm meaner.
- [141:23]
A
Yeah, it was just, just playing the head. She looks great. I thought her Texas accent was surprisingly pretty good. Yeah, I had. That was like 5 to 1 odds she was gonna have a good accent. But I thought she was excellent. I. I thought Billy Bob and Ali Larder have completely figured out their whole thing.
- [141:42]
D
So how do you feel about though when it's like The Ali Larder 12 minute dinner scene I'm in. You like it?
- [141:51]
A
I like it. Do some people not like it?
- [141:53]
D
Yeah, I mean, I like it for how Crazy.
- [141:56]
E
It is.
- [141:57]
D
But it is truly like unhinged television when they're just like, we're gonna do an entire 12 minute scene about my menstrual cycle and white truffles.
- [142:06]
A
But I think that's what they're trying to do. It's like when she comes in, safety off.
- [142:12]
D
Yes.
- [142:13]
A
And we don't know where this is going.
- [142:15]
D
I don't even feel like the actors know where it's going. Like, they're all just sitting there at the dinner table just like, what the the is happening.
- [142:20]
A
So it makes me wonder, like, I don't know how involved Taylor Sheridan is in these shows after he sets them up and writes the first.
- [142:26]
D
He's writing this one man's like, pretty huge show.
- [142:29]
A
So he definitely has some thoughts about marriage.
- [142:32]
D
Yeah.
- [142:32]
A
And I'm not sure if he just thought it would be fun to take this angle or if these are really. Because Billy Bob will have. He did this in episode two. He has these, like, he's telling it, giving his son advice, his mom to deal with women, and it's almost like cutting too close to home. It makes me wonder, is this what Taylor Sheridan and all of his thoughts are? Billy Bob says proxy for relationships.
- [142:53]
D
I'm sure he is his proxy. I don't know about what Taylor Sharon's marriage is like. The. The thing I like the most about this show is that it doesn't really seem to play by that many rules. So, no, it'll be like, Cooper, this.
- [143:07]
A
Son on this show who, oh, I really like.
- [143:10]
D
And he's. Jacob Laughlin's a really good actor, but he will be like. You're like, so this guy has basically been on an uninterrupted role since his friends died in the rig in the first season. He's wound up with this girl. It wound up being able to be with her because they've, like, successfully warned off, like, her friends and family members who were against it. Then he digs these wells by, like, reasoning with these guys to get their leases.
- [143:34]
A
Yeah.
- [143:34]
D
All of the wells hit and you're like, where's the conflict in this character? Is he just going to be like.
- [143:39]
A
Like, oh, we're getting the concert.
- [143:40]
D
Every Hail Mary he throws is a touchdown. And then we find out this week that, like, off screen there's been some shenanigans. And this is probably just Taylor Sheridan being like, it's never too late to course correct something or to throw a curveball. And this kid needs. This kid needs like a. An obstacle. So we're gonna bring in the cartel, Andy Garcia, his silent partner and his financing these leases.
- [144:04]
A
Yeah, it just looks so easy to just go down to Texas and borrow some money from people and drill. Drill some land and just be like, now what people don't realize is the land that people thought the oil got. They already thought they tried it out, but what they don't realize is the oil's higher.
- [144:21]
D
But that was what was cool. The second episode was great because Tommy was like, what the hell is wrong with you? Like, why didn't you come to me about this? Like, yeah, you could have. What would have happened if this had all gone wrong? You know? And I think that will be, like, a really good plot line for the rest of the season.
- [144:36]
A
Yeah, Billy Bob's done great. Then we have this whole Sam Elliott so far.
- [144:41]
D
Two scenes, both at sunset, both in a wheelchair.
- [144:45]
A
We'll see if Sam Elliott is Sam Elliott actually in a wheelchair in real life or what's going on.
- [144:49]
D
Well, he did say that he had gotten injured shooting 1883, and that he has had, like, physical stuff since then, but that this was a part that he really wanted to play. So I'm hoping now with the funeral coming up for. For Billy Bob's mother that we'll get some mobile Sam Elliott out.
- [145:06]
A
She sounded like a prize.
- [145:07]
D
Yeah. Do you think Sam Elliott moves into the house with everybody else?
- [145:11]
A
Yeah, I've signed up for Sam Elliott this season. I need him in more scenes we saw was at dinner in Malibu like, a year and a half ago, and Sam Elliot was in the bar. It was at this place. There's a steak place there. And they have this place where there's, like, tables, but you can also see the bar. And Sam Elliott came in and sat at the bar. And it was like the most Sam Elliott thing. All the women were like, Sam, like, women love Sam Elliott. Handsome dude. Like, exactly what you would think. And he's just having, like, a scotch and soda. That guy has lived the life.
- [145:43]
D
That's great.
- [145:44]
A
Yeah. So I don't. Maybe in Landman they're taking it week by week, not knowing if he's going to be there.
- [145:49]
D
So you're watching Landman. You watch Beast of Me. What else are you watching?
- [145:53]
A
We're done with Landman.
- [145:53]
D
No, we keep talking about Landman. What else? Other characters are there. We did. We did Tommy.
- [145:57]
A
Well, that, you know, they haven't figured out Billy Bob's son's living girlfriend.
- [146:04]
D
No, but she actually, like, was like, hey, I don't know if I'm. If I'm signing Up for this. Feel like he's going to make a big speech and turn around.
- [146:11]
A
I wouldn't mind if we got rid of her. And he ended up with. He started to play in the field a little bit on Landman.
- [146:17]
D
Okay.
- [146:17]
A
I don't really want anybody attached on Landman. Even Billy Bob and Ali Lar. Like, does anyone have to. To date anyone in Landman?
- [146:24]
D
It's just be like an all open relationship.
- [146:27]
A
Yeah. I think it should be all like the ice storm. Just don't know what's gonna happen. Said in Texas. But. Yeah. I don't. I don't like that plot that much. I'm glad he's a nice guy who wants to be a decent. Sure. Fake stepfather.
- [146:40]
D
I think he's trying to be the opposite of his dad, you know?
- [146:43]
A
Yeah. It's cool. Play the field a little. You're like, do we know how old he is, too?
- [146:47]
D
Who, Cooper?
- [146:48]
A
Yeah.
- [146:48]
D
I think Cooper's supposed to be, like in his late 20s. He's out of Texas Tech, maybe mid-20s. He's been doing geology at Lubbock, but now he's probably a couple years out of school.
- [146:59]
A
And the daughter, mid-20s, who I thought was great in the first episode. I love the college, the TCU stuff. Yes. I. I think she has.
- [147:07]
D
Are you trying to encourage Ben to.
- [147:08]
A
Go to TCU after this show? No. Yeah. So Landman. I love Beast and Me.
- [147:14]
D
Yeah.
- [147:15]
A
I thought. I thought that was a home run.
- [147:17]
D
I'm midway through that.
- [147:18]
C
No.
- [147:19]
A
Yeah. I thought that was really good. There's been some good documentary.
- [147:22]
D
That one kind of reminds me a little bit of like, really good early, like, FX and Netflix thrillers.
- [147:29]
A
I was gonna say, like early 2010. Showtime bloodline.
- [147:33]
B
Yeah.
- [147:34]
D
You know, like Damages.
- [147:36]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [147:37]
D
Yeah.
- [147:37]
A
Well, it's Howard Gordon.
- [147:38]
D
Yeah. Who did homeland and 24 and stuff. Yeah.
- [147:42]
A
Reuniting with Claire.
- [147:45]
D
She's really good.
- [147:45]
A
Would have been an interesting call.
- [147:46]
D
Yeah.
- [147:47]
A
Convincing her to do it.
- [147:48]
C
No, no.
- [147:49]
A
This character is different than.
- [147:50]
D
This character. Laughs it up.
- [147:51]
A
Yeah. This is a different one for you. That one's been really good. I feel like TVs had a really nice run this year.
- [147:57]
D
Yeah, it's. We were. We're about to do our best of the year in a couple weeks, and it's. It's one of the easier top tens. The cream is really like, obviously the cream for this season.
- [148:09]
A
Somebody sent me a tweet, and it was the 2000. It was a video. The 2014 Best Actor Emmy nominees. And the caption of the tweet was something like, we really knew how to make TV in 2014.
- [148:24]
D
Was it like Cranston? Ham.
- [148:25]
A
It goes through. It's Cranston, it's Ham. It was Kevin Spacey and House of Cards. Who else was that year?
- [148:34]
D
Would that have been a Thrones year?
- [148:35]
A
Oh, two True Defense. Both true detective guys. Both true detective guys.
- [148:39]
D
Yeah.
- [148:39]
A
It's like when you're watching, it's like, oh, my God. It's like this murderous row that was the height of Grandland just for like, TV coverage where we just couldn't believe we had all these shows. Yeah, we're in a different era now.
- [148:53]
D
But it's like there are successful shows like Layman's, like, not got 9 million viewers, which is really good, or 10 million viewers or whatever. But it just feels. It gets talked about differently and people watch it on their own time now. They've completely broken the idea of like, watching something on the night it comes out. Unless it's like Task Finale or whatever.
- [149:10]
A
Yeah, but even that White Lotus was the last, like, Sunday night. This is the time it's on. But even that, like, my daughter didn't watch it when it was on. I think you have a whole generation of people now that the one difference is. So I noticed this with my daughter, Summer I turned pretty, which was dropping on Wednesday nights at 2 in the morning. Yes. I was participating east coast time. And were you actually participating?
- [149:36]
D
My wife is a huge Summer I turn Pretty fan.
- [149:38]
A
So she was. So it was like 11 o' clock on the west Coast. Yes. My daughter was in college, up all.
- [149:44]
D
Night waiting for it to come on.
- [149:45]
A
There was one time where she stayed up for whatever the drop was. I thought that was interesting. And I think the Stranger Things Wednesday will be a big one.
- [149:53]
D
That'll be big. But I think that they. This is almost indicative of what I'm talking about, where they're playing to the idea that everybody's going to be off work and we'll have time to watch five hours or six hours of Stranger Things over the course of like a night or two. Whereas, like before, we would just be like, no, do the one hour on a Sunday night so that we can talk about it all weekend.
- [150:15]
A
The Netflix conundrum for 10 years.
- [150:17]
D
But it's like, even if they put Stranger Things out on a normal, like, kind of media schedule, where if it had dropped two weeks ago, you know, you would have just had so much more coverage of it. I think people will cover Stranger Things a lot, but it's. They're kind of circumventing like the talking about it part.
- [150:33]
A
I don't know the answer and it almost depends on the show because I think there's some binge stuff that like Beast in Me was a perfect binge show.
- [150:41]
D
Not. Not a show I want to watch week to week.
- [150:43]
A
Yeah. It wasn't quite. Although it was a really good show. But I liked the ability to just plow through it. There were like 40, 43 minute episodes. Yeah. It really was a six episode show.
- [150:54]
D
But it kind of extended out, cut shorter.
- [150:58]
A
But I, you know, we always look at it from our. The Grant Lamb Ringer vantage point of. We just want content.
- [151:05]
D
Sure.
- [151:06]
A
So White Lotus was perfect.
- [151:08]
D
Yeah. And then you get shows like Task was perfect. Perfect. And then every once in a while you get like adolescence, you know, where it's just like out of nowhere somehow. Everybody is talking about this show that's been on Netflix for a couple of days and everybody watches it but the.
- [151:22]
A
Garfield assassination, Death by Lightning.
- [151:24]
D
Really good.
- [151:25]
A
That's a perfect binge, though.
- [151:26]
D
Yes.
- [151:26]
A
I don't think that should have been Witness Space Sat every four weeks when you go to like.
- [151:30]
D
But they crucially didn't make that into like an eight episode show.
- [151:34]
A
Right.
- [151:34]
D
They were like, this has like, we're gonna tell like a very contained story here.
- [151:38]
A
I thought the marketing of it was really interesting too. The marketing kind of. They snuck it out. The Game of Thrones guys were involved.
- [151:45]
D
Yeah.
- [151:45]
A
David. They didn't really play that up. They kind of put it out. But it did really well, it seemed like. But I didn't feel like there was a lot of buzz at all. Whereas like the Stranger Things.
- [151:56]
D
Do you watch Clorubis at all? Have you checked it out?
- [151:59]
A
I'm going to. That's. That's on my list. I, I don't. I feel like this is a combo sports culture thing, but everybody's just better at spreading out the content and picking weekends so that it's kind of relentless now.
- [152:11]
D
Oh yeah.
- [152:11]
A
There would be stuff. Think like back 10, 12 years ago where they would just have weekends where there was no new movie, no TV show to watch and no sports on.
- [152:20]
B
Yeah.
- [152:20]
A
Like, ah, fuck.
- [152:21]
D
And now you're like, I feel like I'm already really behind on awards movies and the TV stuff I'm on top of. But it still is like, it's piling up for sure pretty much after Stranger Things, fallout's coming out and then the rest of the year is pretty quiet for TV until January when industry comes back.
- [152:41]
A
Yeah. Because in sports, the. And this was a big Nick Khan thing for UFC and wwe, like just that whole, that whole company that runs that stuff. They really studied the schedules of. We shouldn't be putting WrestleMania out on this weekend. Why don't we do this weekend? It's a little more dead. Why don't we have this boxing thing in the third weekend in August? Cause that's a dead weekend. So now it just feels like we just go from week to week and there's always a new thing. And I think the big thing for me, and we haven't talked about it on this podcast, but I know you've talked about on the watch a bunch. But Paramount, what happens with them if they can get. Get Warner Brothers or if Comcast can get Warner, whoever gets it, are they are one of those people going to be a disruptor? Because right now I don't feel like we have disruptors in the same ways where we. Netflix has figured out their lane. Amazon is basically doing like they're into sports. They have.
- [153:36]
D
They do a lot of dad shows.
- [153:37]
A
And dad shows for specifically my dad, like Bosch and those.
- [153:41]
D
So I think that the one thing I would note about the Paramount stuff is that Cindy Holland is now essentially running their TV business.
- [153:47]
A
Yeah.
- [153:48]
D
And she was the person who kind of was the architect of Netflix's early TV strategy and has really, really well guarded taste. So she was the one who brought in House of Cards and Artist, New Black, all those shows. So I think that some of those first decisions that she's been making have been really interesting. With Paramount, I don't know what happens if they acquire Warner Brothers. I mean, I think HBO is really the crown jewel of.
- [154:11]
A
Well, let's. We'll do the players, right. Netflix, we know what they are. Every week they have something. Apple has these shows, they always have big stars. They're either a movie or a TV.
- [154:21]
D
Show, but it's a closed circuit. Their shows don't go out, they don't get licensed anywhere. It's a global service. But at the same time it's one that I think lots of people don't even know that they have if they've.
- [154:32]
A
Got it or right.
- [154:33]
D
Don't even know how to.
- [154:34]
A
They have stuff that comes and goes and you didn't even know it happened. Yes, like real movies with famous people.
- [154:40]
D
Down Cemetery Road with Emma Thompson and Ruth Wilson, which is pretty good. But it's like I don't think I've seen a single outside of Apple piece of advertising for it.
- [154:49]
A
And then the studio, which I think we all were fairly high to pretty high on the Ringer. I also think that was a New York LA show. I don't think anyone.
- [155:01]
D
I think that they're fine with a New York LA show and it hit.
- [155:04]
A
The awards that did everything they'd want, but it wasn't a big audience show. Severance Claim is a big audience show, but I don't know how big of an audience it is.
- [155:13]
D
I think Severance and Pluribus have both kind of like moved into a larger, like, theories. Fan theories and also like a larger Beyond Apple thing.
- [155:22]
A
Yeah. Pluribus is a good one by our standards, where we can get the content out of it every week, I think. But yeah, so you have them. You have Paramount, which is basically moved into this Taylor Sheridan kind of world. I know, but they don't lose them for three years.
- [155:37]
D
Yeah, but like, that's is. I do wonder whether that's a little bit like. Yeah, that's right. Mark Cuban, you can still be the governor, you know, like.
- [155:44]
B
Right, right.
- [155:45]
D
At what point does Taylor Sheridan start offloading some of those shows to like, proteges or people who are like, now writing town or. Yeah, why Marshals or whatever. And he starts to go to work. He starts somewhat on his peacock stuff. The fact that Comcast got Taylor Sheridan makes me think that Comcast thinks they're major players for another 10 years. Buying the NBA rights, having the Olympics, getting Taylor Sheridan, that makes me think that they are really, like, going. They're going to go after. I think they're really going after those Warner assets.
- [156:22]
B
Right.
- [156:23]
A
And maybe getting at least half of them. So it feels like we're about to hit disruption again because right now everybody seems too comfy. And Hulu, we didn't mention them, but Hulu, I'm not. It's Hulu plus fx and they have stuff like the Murdoch murders, by the.
- [156:39]
C
Way, I watched that.
- [156:39]
A
I enjoyed.
- [156:40]
D
But don't you think at a certain point that just becomes tiles on Disney plus, like, won't they want to choose?
- [156:47]
A
So Hulu is probably a loser. And then Peacock, I guess, needs to be supercharged by whatever happens with NBC Universal and folded in. But I do think this. I think this, whatever happens going forward with all these assets from the Warner Brothers is going to supercharge somebody. I just don't know who.
- [157:06]
D
Yeah. And it's a question of whether or not, like, for instance. So Sean and Amanda were talking about this today. If Netflix were to buy Warner Brothers, do they still commit to the way, like, like releasing movies or if they were to buy Warner Brothers, do they also buy hbo? Are they buying the HBO brain trust, and HBO becomes like a. Basically a tile on Netflix. Like, I don't. I don't know how that stuff.
- [157:28]
A
I don't see it. Netflix has never bought anything.
- [157:31]
D
So you think they're just doing their due diligence.
- [157:34]
A
I think it's. I think what they would want is the library. Yeah.
- [157:38]
D
And the idea.
- [157:38]
A
My understanding. Yeah, you get the Warner Brothers. You just get all of these movies that are now just on Netflix, and you just have them. I think hbo, however this plays out, HBO ends up on its own somewhere, carved out. I think the biggest thing that's happened the last five years is HBO kind of got its mojo back as an entity.
- [157:56]
D
Sure.
- [157:57]
A
Because it really felt like Zaslav was trying to ruin it. It's like, no, no, it's only a part of this bigger thing we have. And Max and I also think TV.
- [158:05]
D
Is getting back to being TV again. Post Covid, post strikes, which is really worth.
- [158:10]
C
Right.
- [158:10]
D
Keeping in mind when we say the sky is falling is that a lot of people's, like, sort of changing relationships to television was in fact a ripple effect of COVID and the strikes. That's where like, the three years in between seasons starts coming in. That's when. And now it's like the pit's coming back on in. In, like, January or February.
- [158:28]
A
You know, it's a big success.
- [158:29]
D
Like, these shows, like these Taylor Sheridan shows usually come back once a year. So, like, we're starting to get back into TV is something that is, like, repeatable on an annual basis, not something that's like an event every three or four years.
- [158:43]
A
Everyone I know who tries to sell shows or make shows says the combo of COVID and the strikes changed the equation for the urgency. These places had to actually greenlight shows.
- [158:54]
D
Right.
- [158:54]
A
And that we're just. We're just making less stuff across the board, and people are just more careful versus maybe Apple's not being as careful, but people are careful for the most part of what they're green lighting, how long those things are going to be, how many seasons. And it's still kind of shaking out. So the Paramount thing, I think, is the most interesting wrinkle as we head into the second half of the 2000s, how much are they just going to completely blow up the market for everything? Are they going to be trying to steal stuff also?
- [159:28]
D
Are they the only people who can get a merger to go through because of. Of the White House? So it's like, I don't know how that stuff works politically. And what Happens if like tides change.
- [159:37]
A
Politically still feel like tell me lies the summer I turn pretty Stranger things euphoria. There's still some massive shows being marketed to people under 30 that are working in real ways.
- [159:51]
D
Yeah.
- [159:52]
A
And then there's shows for the over 30 people that I think that both. That stuff's been hitting too. I don't know. I'm pretty bullish right now.
- [159:59]
D
Yeah. It'll just be interesting to see whether people like your kids graduate into becoming TV watchers the way we were and like adopt their shows or whether they're just like, this is just like part.
- [160:11]
A
Of the content buffet or there's better stuff now. Like I was thinking about when we were kids, they would show reruns of sitcoms and we would watch them again.
- [160:20]
D
Syndication stuff? Yeah.
- [160:22]
A
No, like on NBC.
- [160:24]
D
Oh, right. It's not a new episode.
- [160:26]
A
It's not a new episode of Night Court this week. Cheers again.
- [160:29]
D
Yeah.
- [160:29]
A
It's like you already saw it. It's like cool.
- [160:31]
D
Yeah.
- [160:31]
A
Thanks guys. Yes, I'll watch it again.
- [160:34]
D
But that would be your only opportunity to ever watch it again.
- [160:37]
A
But now it's. I don't know, everything is kind of narrowed down. I still don't. The thing I really want to see how it plays out just for TV and movies is comedy. I think we figured out everything but comedy. Like horror movies are the most backed they've ever been.
- [160:52]
D
Yes.
- [160:53]
A
The IMAX and blowing out these big movies on movie screens. You can even see it in the marketing now. We're like coming on IMAX March 23rd. So we figured that out. We figured out the prestige tv, ya, all these different things. Comedies we've not figured out, they don't release in theaters anymore at all. Right. Nobody goes to see comedy.
- [161:16]
D
Between the popularity of stand up at any given time and the popularity of comedy television and movies. In terms of like, are people just going to see stand up and watching comedy pods rather than watching comedy sitcoms and comedy movies?
- [161:29]
A
That's interesting. I. I just think we don't have the stars like I was watching.
- [161:36]
D
We have really big comedians though.
- [161:39]
A
Yeah. But here's the difference. I was flying home on JetBlue. The Wi Fi went. So now I'm stuck with DirecTV and they have their 20 channels. Beverly Hills Cop is on WeTV, which I've seen 700 times. I'm like, all right, fine, I'll watch Beverly Hills Cop again. This is my best option. I can't watch the ESPN talking head programming. There's nothing else. And it's just a great movie and Eddie's just such a megastar in it. And I just feel like if we had people like that, comedies would be back. Like. Sure. We just need massive people who can carry movies that are really funny. Which sounds like it's like we need a franchise basketball player. Great. I just don't know who those people are. And you're right, they've kind of drifted towards.
- [162:22]
D
I just think it's pretty lucrative to doing their standup and doing their podcast.
- [162:25]
A
Nate bragazzi. Yeah, like 30 years ago, Nate Bragazzi is coming up with his version of Everybody Loves Raymond and not doing standup.
- [162:33]
D
Exactly.
- [162:34]
A
1993, Ray Romano is trying to be Nate Bragazzi. In 2025, he's not doing Everybody Loves Raymond. So TV sitcoms, those have gone out the window.
- [162:44]
D
And then that was also like a platform to go into movies.
- [162:47]
A
But I wonder with comedies, what does the generation comedy that was shaped by the Apatow movies and Superbad and all that?
- [162:55]
D
Because if you think like Craig Horror backstage.
- [162:58]
A
Yeah. Cause when we did the Weird Science pod, me and Kyle, we were talking about how much that movie influenced Superbad. Right. Weird science comes out 85. Superbad's 2007, 2008 range. And the generation that wrote in Superbad and acted in it was affected specifically by those 80 movies like Weird Science. That new generation should be coming now for all the people that were affected by Jonah Hill, Bill Hader, Steve Carell, Will Ferrell, anchorman that should be transferring. But maybe that just goes to Tick tock. I don't know.
- [163:30]
D
Yeah. I don't know. I mean that's also like the, that would be around like the people grew up watching Eastbound and Down and the Danny McBride stuff.
- [163:39]
C
Right.
- [163:39]
A
That was an unbelievable comedy era.
- [163:41]
E
Yeah.
- [163:41]
D
And now I think probably the biggest comedy that's on right now is probably chair company, like in terms of like the, the Tim Robinson show.
- [163:49]
A
And that's that even a comedy.
- [163:51]
D
Barely. It's more, it's got more in common with like the Bear.
- [163:54]
A
Yeah. They. Or some of those.
- [163:56]
D
Right. I mean, I think it's. Think it's funny, but it's, it's got, it's. It's a super weird show.
- [164:00]
A
Like, it's like I Love LA is interesting. It's not like you're not laughing. Yeah.
- [164:06]
D
I think there's some like funny observations in it, but I don't know that it's like a. A comedy. Yeah. Or like a punchline driven comedy.
- [164:15]
A
Yeah. I. This is like that Louis show started this where this, these shows that were ostensibly comedies, but they're not.
- [164:22]
B
Yeah.
- [164:23]
A
And this is just where we've been 10 years. I still think there's an option for somebody to just be really fucking funny. But you need the stars, unfortunately.
- [164:31]
B
Yeah.
- [164:31]
D
I think that they. I just don't think. I think it's become so lucrative to be your own boss and have your own comedy career that you don't want to go and be like, I'm a cop, fish out. I'm a fish out of water cop. You know?
- [164:44]
A
Right.
- [164:44]
D
And it's like, Theo Vaughn's not going to go do that movie. Like, he's doing fine.
- [164:48]
A
Comedies would work. I still feel like buddy copy movies still work, but, you know, I'm surprised.
- [164:55]
D
Nobody'S done a college comedy in a minute. I'm trying to think of, like.
- [164:59]
A
Or would that just be on Netflix now?
- [165:02]
D
I guess. But it's. It's also just like. I think that those become TV shows. Probably you're right. But we haven't had, like, a Project X kind of like party comedy in a while.
- [165:12]
A
Right, Right.
- [165:14]
D
Which has traditionally been, like, a nice place to start from, where it's like. That's like Animal House and, like.
- [165:18]
A
Right. But do people go see comedies in a movie theater anymore? Do they just wait until they're on? Like, I really wanted to see the Paul Rudd Tim Robinson movie, and I was like, ah, I'll just wait till it's on Amazon.
- [165:27]
D
Well, this is. This is.
- [165:28]
A
They.
- [165:29]
D
They've crippled that because, like, now that's become, like, the ultimate. Like, it's not exactly going to see one battle after another. I can watch this on my tv.
- [165:36]
A
Whereas you have to see one battle after another.
- [165:38]
D
Yeah, you should.
- [165:39]
A
In the theater.
- [165:39]
B
Yeah.
- [165:40]
A
Yeah. Have you seen it. How many times have you seen it?
- [165:42]
D
Twice. Once on IMAX and once at home.
- [165:46]
C
Yeah.
- [165:47]
A
I'm gonna test drive it at home. It's the. It's so much. And it's almost three hours that it's. You leave and you're just like, you're.
- [165:54]
D
But it's also, like, I would say the second time through, because you kind of know the rhythms of it and you know where it's going and you know how much longer the perfidia section is and how much longer the. It's. It. It really is an awesome second watch and rewatchable movie.
- [166:10]
A
Yeah. Like, some of the stuff I didn't pick up on the first time, I. I've only seen it once. But. But just how. How distinct and deliberate. The starts in 2008, ends in 04 or 24. And just.
- [166:23]
D
I want.
- [166:23]
A
There's so many things I just want.
- [166:25]
D
To watch, and there's lots of nuances to, like, the Leo performance and the Benico performance that are like, I. On the second watch, I noticed, like, even just, like, Leo's vape acting is just elite on the second watch.
- [166:38]
A
Yeah. You think he's really vaping the whole time. He must be right. I think he's.
- [166:41]
D
He's an enthusiastic vaper.
- [166:42]
C
Yeah.
- [166:43]
A
All right. Did we cover everything?
- [166:45]
D
I think so.
- [166:45]
A
Thanks for popping on my Evergreen BS Thanksgiving week podcast. Great to see you.
- [166:51]
D
I'm glad to see you, man.
- [166:52]
A
Well, we didn't talk about the Eagles.
- [166:53]
D
Oh, yeah. Tulo stuff.
- [166:55]
A
Let's go. Just quickly, were you eight and three and miserable?
- [166:58]
D
Yeah, that's. That's what it is. That's. And it's like a. Did you ever have a Patriot season like that? Did you ever. 8 and 3 and miserable.
- [167:04]
A
We had a. I want to say it was 09, 2010. It was after Brady's ACL when they were winning and they're scoring. But you knew the. You just knew they didn't have it. The only thing that's weird is that.
- [167:17]
D
I don't know who has it this season.
- [167:18]
A
Yeah.
- [167:19]
D
Like, it would be one thing if it was 8 and 3 and it's fake and they're about to, like, lose the Bears on Friday and it's just, like, goes downhill. But they could very well turn this around and go to the super bowl again. You know, like, they get Lane Johnson back. Like, there's all sorts of stuff. Like, there's ways in which this could go better.
- [167:35]
A
But yeah, if you're doing the life depends on a test, and you're like, what team's coming out of the nfc? And granted, I'll give you the Rams, but I don't know how the Eagles aren't the second pick. And that conversation, especially with Tampa falling apart, I, I, who else are you taking?
- [167:48]
D
Right? Seahawks.
- [167:50]
A
Like, I don't know.
- [167:52]
D
I like it.
- [167:52]
A
It reminds me of, like, the mid 2000s NFL. Like, the year we had that Colts, Bears, Super Bowl. We had that Steelers, Seahawks, super bowl, where you're just looking at all these teams. Yeah.
- [168:03]
C
Yeah.
- [168:03]
A
Like, really?
- [168:04]
D
Yeah.
- [168:05]
A
You're going to make a Super bowl with Hasselbeck. Rex Grossman's going to be in there. Like, we, it might, it might be that crazy. Like, it might be, like, a really flawed Patriots team or, you know, the Bears just get the two seed and somehow win round two on a punt return and you're like, really?
- [168:23]
D
Yeah. But I was watching the Lions yesterday.
- [168:26]
A
And another flawed team.
- [168:28]
D
And a flawed team, but, like, so exciting and feel so, like, much more fluid and, like, electrifying than the Eagles. And, you know, Gibbs looks like what Saquon used to look like, but I, I, They're. They're in nail biters every week, it seems like, you know, so it's just like, I don't really know who's good.
- [168:47]
A
Who's your favorite Eagle?
- [168:48]
D
Oh, devonte Smith.
- [168:50]
A
Oh, by far does that. Is he like, the See the alternative band? He's like the Matthew Sweet of the Eagles.
- [168:56]
D
It's. He's like the teenage fan club of the Philippines.
- [169:00]
A
All the cool kids.
- [169:01]
B
Yeah.
- [169:01]
A
The little devonte Smith. I love Smitty. Yeah, Smitty. We're calling him now. When did that start?
- [169:06]
D
I think it's been like, his Philly nickname for a minute.
- [169:08]
C
Yeah.
- [169:10]
A
What? How many Eagles text threads do you have?
- [169:13]
D
One major one with. With Andy and Zach. That is quite nice.
- [169:17]
A
Just three of you?
- [169:18]
D
Yeah.
- [169:18]
A
Nobody else is invited?
- [169:19]
D
That's not even invited. I don't think anybody else would want to, like, like, withstand that, you know, just the amount of, like, us scouting other people's offensive coordinators.
- [169:29]
A
I have. I'm on a Boston sports thread that henches on, but I'm also on a Pats thread with him and one other person, and somehow we don't repeat our takes on the two threads. Each thread has a different energy, a different vibe. The Boston sports threads a little, like, happier, and. And then the Patriots thread is, like, hardcore. I'm really worried about Gonzalez. This is the third time he's been beaten by some fringe receiver that. It's, like, getting into that. Oh, God.
- [169:54]
B
Yeah.
- [169:55]
A
Those are. Those. Those are some fun threads.
- [169:57]
D
Yeah. I was just telling you, like, I was like, if you go back two years, we're openly calling for Bobby Slowik to replace Sirianni.
- [170:05]
A
Oh, and you're on your text. Yeah.
- [170:06]
D
And it's like the, like, the certainty with which we were like, it's just a matter of time before Slowik moves into Sirianni's office and then he goes and wins a Super Bowl.
- [170:18]
A
That would be a fun. I don't know what that would be.
- [170:21]
D
Yeah, it would just be, like, take storage in your test.
- [170:23]
C
Yeah.
- [170:24]
A
I was wondering, could you pay Apple to just get rid of your terrible sports takes? I'm positive we could beat the lakers from, like, 2020. All right, cr. Great. See you, as always. All right. Tuesday afternoon. Gonna finish the podcast with my Daughter, Zoe Simmons, who I made come home from college. You resisted.
- [170:42]
E
I didn't resist.
- [170:43]
A
I came home for a couple days. You were like, I'm coming home for you.
- [170:46]
E
I did come home for you.
- [170:48]
A
You should come home for Thanksgiving. You spent every Thanksgiving with us.
- [170:50]
E
Yeah, but I came home for you because I know how badly you want me to.
- [170:54]
A
Wasn't Mom. Just me.
- [170:55]
E
It was for mom, too, but mom is less hurt by these sorts of things. You take this stuff to heart.
- [171:00]
A
That's my dad's side, though. That's that whole guilt trip side.
- [171:02]
E
You're a grudge holder. You're a guilt tripper. I knew if I didn't come home, this would be hung over my head for the next 10 years of my life.
- [171:09]
A
I don't know how many more of these I have left.
- [171:11]
E
Come on. I mean, really, let's not even go there.
- [171:13]
A
It's in College. You'd be 21 in May.
- [171:15]
E
Yep. It's true.
- [171:16]
A
For the people listening.
- [171:17]
E
For the people listening.
- [171:18]
A
You've been coming on this podcast since, like, 2017. Although I was thinking about it in ESPN, I had you and Ben sing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer when you were like, little kid.
- [171:28]
E
I forgot about that.
- [171:29]
A
It's been quite a journey for us. It has Stranger Things launching this week. The defining show of your generation. I think it's fair to say. I don't even know what the competition would be. Yeah, it's interesting because your generation is way scattered. Social media, all these influencers, everybody has all these different things they like. And you don't have the common stuff like my generation had, where we all watch the same shows, movies, but yet everybody watches Stranger Things. This is the one show like that.
- [171:57]
E
There's a few out there. Some of them are older TV shows that people of my generation have found. Like Gilmore Girls is one of those shows where I think if you're a female within age, like 13 to 30, you are just expected to have seen all of Gilmore Girls. There are a few shows like that, but I think this show, as you were saying, it's so scattered all over the place, because with social media and everyone just being aware of what everyone is up to, it's easy to just do your own thing and have your own route and be aware of other stuff happening, but not necessarily immerse yourself within it because you just know that it's happening. But this show kind of like stop time, and it felt like everyone had to watch it. And it came out in. What was it, 2012, the first season?
- [172:41]
A
No, it was later.
- [172:41]
B
2017.
- [172:42]
A
Yeah, 20.
- [172:43]
E
I'm gonna say it was a defining year, regardless of when it came out. And every single person that I knew watched it. And we were all, at least for me, the ages of the characters when the first season came out. So it just. It felt like a total.
- [173:00]
A
Now Millie Bobby Brown's a mom.
- [173:01]
E
She's a mom. She's a wife. She's old. They're all old. It's gonna be. That's a whole other topic. But interesting how they kind of transferred how these people have grown up and how many years have been between the last season releasing and then this season. Cause the last season came out my junior year of high school, and now I'm a junior in college.
- [173:20]
A
Why did it take so long?
- [173:21]
E
Cause of COVID and Covid setbacks. The CGI for this show is also just. And the writers strike. Like, there were just a lot of things that happened that set it back. And I'm honestly okay with it because I would rather them do it to the best of their ability as perfectly as they can than just try and pump it out for no reason. I think it also. It taking so long to come out has made people, like, really excited for it and has given you time to rewatch all of them.
- [173:47]
A
Yeah, people keep rewatching them.
- [173:49]
E
Yeah. Cause it's a nostalgic. Like, for me, it's my first real nostalgic thing. It's like I watched this show for the first time when I was, like, 12 years old, and now I'm 20. And I'm rewatching all of these episodes and these seasons and remembering things, and it's the nostalgia of it that really gets people.
- [174:05]
A
I think it was even a show you and your brother agreed on and watched.
- [174:09]
E
Oh, yeah. Everyone I know, though, everyone has an experience where they're like, I remember when I first watched Stranger Things. I remember this happening in my life, this thing happening. Like, it was just a cultural Stranger Things.
- [174:20]
A
So is there a fear that this isn't gonna match up to whatever the hype is?
- [174:25]
E
No, I don't think so.
- [174:26]
A
Okay.
- [174:27]
E
I usually worry about that. In terms of shows that have so much hype around them, I think this season's gonna be phenomenal. I have no fears about it whatsoever.
- [174:35]
A
So I somehow never watched it. I know I only saw bits and pieces from when, like, you and Ben were watching it.
- [174:42]
E
But you're aware of, like, the cultural, like, stigma that surrounds it.
- [174:46]
A
I'm aware of all the stuff that the show bred. I don't actually know what happens I know it's set in the past. I know it's an homage to all the movies that I loved when I was in the 80s. And seven has superpowers or something.
- [175:00]
E
Eleven. Nice characters.
- [175:01]
A
Eleven.
- [175:04]
E
Eleven's a different character. Seven got killed off in season one. You don't really know the other numbers. Eleven's the goat.
- [175:12]
A
All right, so where do we leave off with 11?
- [175:14]
E
11'S Jason Tatum of Stranger Things World. Well, season four was this whole other. This show is so confusing to explain to someone that hasn't watched it, so I don't even feel like I can attempt at doing that for you.
- [175:28]
A
Okay, but do it in 20 seconds.
- [175:31]
E
Okay.
- [175:32]
A
Can you do it in 20 seconds? This is a test.
- [175:35]
E
11 is a part of this company that is basically trying to breed people to have superpowers that they can use them to fight other countries in war and combat and things like that. Okay, so she's a production of this evil hospital. She escapes into the woods and ends up, like, finding her friends that are the Stranger Things cast. So she escapes from the hospital, and within all four seasons, they're trying to get her back. Okay, so that's like a. But that's not the whole show. There's so many different subplots. But in season four, it kind of comes to fruition that the number one person who started this entire, like, Elle was the one who broke the world and basically made it possible for us to enter a whole new dimension, which is the Upside Down.
- [176:25]
A
Yeah, Upside Down.
- [176:27]
E
And she sent one of her other people from, like, the hospital, number one, into the Upside down, and he became a demon that was the king of the Upside down and has now come back for revenge.
- [176:39]
A
Oh.
- [176:40]
E
So that's the whole different subplot which is the main part of the show. But then in season one, Will one of the characters, one of the little boys, gets abducted. So that's kind of how it all starts out. And then 11 comes along, and Will is always kind of like a part of this upside down world because he was abducted and then possessed by the upside down demons. That's, like, the dumbest way I can try and explain a really complicated.
- [177:03]
A
No, I think I followed it.
- [177:04]
E
You got the gist.
- [177:05]
A
But this is it. So it's gonna end with, like, 11 saves the world, and then the show will end.
- [177:10]
E
Right. There's a lot of predictions and speculation as to what's going to happen this season because we've had some pretty pivotal characters die. Beloved characters, you could say, but not any characters that were there from the beginning. There's always, like, a new character that's introduced at the beginning of a season. Like season three, it was Bob, who's Will's stepdad, and Joyce's new boyfriend, who becomes like a really lovable father figure character, and then he gets murdered at the end. It's just devastating. And then this last season, Eddie Munson, who's kind of like the leader of this group that they're in, the Hellfire Club, which the whole show is based off of, Dungeons and Dragons. Like, that was the premise.
- [177:49]
A
Yeah. I never liked it in the 80s.
- [177:50]
E
I'm not a Dungeons and Dragons girl myself, but Eddie was kind of like the ringleader freak of the high school. And he ends up being a good guy and then sacrificing himself for the kids. But he was the big loss of the last season. So this season, people, because it's the last season, have been speculating who's gonna die. It's a lot of.
- [178:09]
A
And they keep it under wraps. Like, they don't leak it. Nobody knows.
- [178:12]
E
No one knows anything. It's like a Taylor Swift situation where it's like, there's no teasers. There's no. It can't be known. Like, it's. Everything is kept super under the wraps. But there's a lot of theories floating around. Eleven's gonna die, potentially. Cause she's gonna have to die in order to save the rest of them. But there's a few pretty significant people in there that I will be absolutely devastated if they die.
- [178:36]
A
So what is the number one reason why this show resonated like it did? Cause it's well done. Cause people love the characters. Cause of the mystery of it. Like, what is it?
- [178:46]
E
I think that people, at least for myself, like, I have always loved the 80s. It's the entire vibe of the show itself. It makes you feel nostalgic for something that you never even experienced. And I know that you lived through that period. Mom lived through that period. Like, all these people that I know and love and looked up to lived through this period. And I think that this show does the best job at depicting what it was like. And it almost makes you wish that you could have been living back in time. Cause it was. It really was. I think the outfits, the fashion, the vibe. That's a whole facet of why this show is so popular and why I like to watch it.
- [179:23]
A
Yeah.
- [179:24]
E
Outside of that, I'm not a science fiction person. But the way that they've done this show and every single season has so many different layers, and it's just like, it's so obvious that they had thought so far in advance from the very beginning. And all the these pieces coming together, that's what people really like. It's more than just well done, but it's, like, so well written. It feels like TV doesn't get written this well in this day and age.
- [179:49]
A
Well, one of your big passions is how the TV shows always seem to miss stuff that would resonate with your generation. They always get, like, three things wrong.
- [179:58]
E
Right. And I also like to feel like I'm much dumber than the people that are writing the show. If I can, like, guess exactly what's gonna happen way before it happens, it doesn't feel like rewarding with the show.
- [180:10]
A
Or maybe you're really smart, maybe you should be writing shows.
- [180:12]
E
But this show, like, you never know what's going to happen. It just feels like this force that's so much bigger than you. As cringe as that sounds, it's like it really. It does withhold, like, such a power that really no other media or TV or movie has ever done for me, unless it was some old stuff that was produced like, like 20 years ago.
- [180:32]
A
So why did Summer I turned pretty hit like it did? What was the difference?
- [180:37]
E
I think that had immediate nostalgia because for me, I read those books when I was in middle school, and I think a lot of girls my age also did. Those were kind of like the rite of passage books that you read throughout middle school. So just to see something like that on a big screen was important. I also think using, like, all current music, like Gracie Abrams, Taylor Swift, all these songs that we kind of grew up on, that was super helpful for watching the show. But I think it was just an easy watch that it came out as summer was ending. So getting to watch it through, like, the fall period, especially for me, like, playing soccer and needing, like, kind of longing for the summer and, like, relaxing times. They just did a good job at making it an easy watch. And they also made the characters super lovable or hateable. Like, people are still very much in love with Conrad on TikTok, like, consistently.
- [181:25]
A
Talking about, did Conrad win or lose? I can't remember. It was a love triangle, Right?
- [181:28]
E
Well, they're so happy for him. Amazon made it so that there's a movie that has to come out in a few months to finish the whole story. They left us off on kind of like a cliffhanger. We're assuming we know what happens, but we don't exactly know. But anyway, like, the parasocial relationship that People have created with Conrad is, like, a whole reason as to why it was so successful. And then everyone.
- [181:51]
A
What did they like about Conrad hates.
- [181:52]
E
Jeremiah so much because he's a yearner. This is what people say on TikTok. Like, you're a yearner. Like, Jeff Buckley's music is like yearning music. And, like, women long for, like, men that just yearn for other women. Because in this day and age, it's like, boys are kind of not, like, very charming, or. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, they're. Boys aren't trying to court girls anymore. And I think Conrad, like, trying to court Belly. Like, really?
- [182:20]
A
I missed the yearning in the courting.
- [182:21]
E
Well, that's just what, like, TikTok is kind of going off of. They, like a man who's, like, willing to, like, put all of everything aside and just be like, I love this girl and I'm gonna do everything for her. And that's what resonated, I think, at least with my friends that still love Conrad.
- [182:37]
A
I think it's great that Jeff Buckley still matters.
- [182:39]
E
Oh, yeah, Especially.
- [182:40]
A
Cause we have a new documentary for the Music Box series about Jeff Buckley plugging it next. Next month.
- [182:45]
E
But he's had a huge resurgence.
- [182:47]
A
Well, it's funny how the TV shows can revive some of these people.
- [182:50]
E
Yeah.
- [182:51]
A
Yeah. So summer I turned pretty. Got to the point where you were. What time was it coming on on Boston time?
- [182:56]
E
Midnight.
- [182:57]
A
So you were staying up till midnight?
- [182:58]
E
Oh, yeah. And I also like when TV shows space things out weekly, so you have to wait for it and you get to have the anticipation. I think that was a whole other thing. Similar to Stranger Things, where it's like, everyone is watching this show and everyone's waiting, and then the week before, everyone's throwing in their predictions or, like, just bonding over it on, like, a global matter. Exactly. Like White Lotus, too.
- [183:20]
A
Yeah, but why don't the streamers. Everybody feels this way. And yet, like, Netflix is dropping all the Stranger Things episodes at once, right?
- [183:27]
E
No, they're dropping the first batch on Thanksgiving, I think, the first four episodes. And then you have to wait until Christmas and then New Year's.
- [183:35]
A
But wouldn't it have been better off doing two and then just one a week to like. To basically, like, suck you guys in for the rest of 2025.
- [183:43]
E
They're more important than these other shows, which I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that I think they are too.
- [183:49]
A
Yeah, obviously it worked.
- [183:50]
E
And they're important enough to be able to, like, here's four episodes and then you have to wait a month for the next four. And I'm willing to do that. I think that they want to be like Bigger than Sunrise.
- [183:59]
A
Tom Pretty didn't do that, right? They did like two and then one.
- [184:02]
E
Not nearly as good as Stranger Things. That's the type of show that has to be released because you're gonna lose interest if it's not like there were so many filler episodes in there where it's like, I don't know what just happened for the last hour, but it's.
- [184:14]
A
Like Conrad joined like a fantasy basketball league.
- [184:16]
E
Nothing that we needed to happen happened. So it's like, oh, hopefully the next week will be better. But at least it's only seven days until we get to find out.
- [184:24]
A
Well, I mean that dates back to the 80s and 90s and the 90210 type shows that were like that, they always should have been like 10 episodes a year and they would like 921 was 32 episodes for a couple years.
- [184:35]
E
Yeah, that's cool.
- [184:36]
A
So they would have like all time filler episodes somewhere. I Turned Pretty, it seems like, what is it? Like 13?
- [184:40]
E
It's not enough episodes to have as many filler episodes as it did. Like I would leave a week of show and being like this, that was just pointless. A wasted hour of my life. But I'm gonna come back again next week because I need to know what happens.
- [184:54]
A
But Tell me Lies was that one hit.
- [184:57]
E
Whole different spectrum. Like I put these shows in different boxes in my brain where it's like, Summer I Turned Pretty is just nostalgic. Easy to watch. A good watch. Every episode might not necessarily be good, but it's easy for background noise. And it's a nice thing to be able to like relate with others on the Internet about and just be like, I'm gonna open my for you page and everything is gonna be about this one scene from the show last night and we all get to laugh about it together. I just like having the sense of community that that show brought.
- [185:26]
A
Tell Me Lies was like the dangerous show that people 16 under shouldn't be watching but they have to watch.
- [185:31]
E
Yeah, it's a total mind screw up. Like watching that show, I have to prepare myself to go into every episode because it feels like you are watching something really dark and being manipulated.
- [185:45]
A
What do you do on that show?
- [185:46]
E
What do you mean when you say good people? Like good person? There's not a single good person. Literally not a single one. But it's a great show. It's exactly Like Euphoria in the way that these characters are so complicated and so fucked up that you would just never even imagine that a person could be capable of doing the things that they do. It's a little less drug heavy and kind of like disco than Euphoria.
- [186:13]
A
I hope so.
- [186:14]
E
Glitter outfit situation. But it still has the same effect where it's like a more real life simulation of this is some really fucked up, manipulated, really terrible people.
- [186:26]
A
Euphoria's coming back and they're I think fast forwarding.
- [186:29]
E
Yeah.
- [186:30]
A
The age is a lot of people.
- [186:30]
E
A lot of years. I'm nervous.
- [186:32]
A
The one thing I heard was that I heard Sydney Sweeney's character is gonna be an onlyfans model on the show. No, for real.
- [186:39]
E
Yeah.
- [186:39]
A
Yeah. That's the only Euphoria scoop I have for you.
- [186:42]
E
I'm nervous for that show to come back. I really did love it in the first few seasons we watched it, but it seems like there's so much baggage that has happened and so much time in between that I just can't imagine it being a good season.
- [186:56]
A
But you loved I Love la.
- [186:58]
E
I loved I Love la.
- [186:59]
A
And you were literally the audience for it because you're a 20 year old in LA, which I don't know, they renewed it, so that's a good sign.
- [187:06]
E
Yeah.
- [187:06]
A
What did you like about it?
- [187:08]
E
I Love LA was. I thought it was just perfect in the way that it made fun of how awful LA people can be. I love I love la, not the show like I love la. LA is great, but you're also smart.
- [187:22]
A
Enough to know who not to like in la.
- [187:24]
E
It was just did the most perfect job at showing how ridiculous like the whole influencer world can be because it is just insane.
- [187:32]
A
Yeah.
- [187:32]
E
I loved every single bit and piece of the influencer stuff. The relationship that lead character has with her boyfriend is just. Could not be more perfect. Everything about the show just felt like it's all of these niche things I've picked up on in my 20 years living here, put into a singular thing and then blown up by 100%. And I think it resonated with a lot of people from that show.
- [187:58]
A
So you think it became a little bit of a thing?
- [187:59]
E
Oh yeah. I saw a lot of stuff of it on the Internet and it's a binge worthy show too, which is helpful. It's an easy watch. People just like easy watches. It's nice to know that like if you're going into a show like Tell Me Lies, it's like I need to prepare myself and this might like, give me an emotional, like some emotional turmoil for the rest of the week. Watching. I love la. It's like a. I can just easily watch this show and go about the rest of my day and not really have a dark cloud hanging over my head.
- [188:27]
A
We should have created a podcast where you recapped these shows with my dad as he tried to figure out what was going on. And like, I love LA before.
- [188:35]
E
He's unbelievable. I think you would've been have had an aneurysm if he tried to watch that show.
- [188:40]
A
Yeah, he's just conditioned for CBS now.
- [188:43]
E
We tried to watch a docu with him over summer.
- [188:46]
A
Which one?
- [188:47]
E
The call her daddy one.
- [188:49]
A
Oh, that's right.
- [188:50]
E
And he. I think he had four seizures in his seat. He had to get a lemonade with extra eyes just to keep him awake. And then he left with like.
- [188:59]
A
He just left. He went in the other room. He's like, I don't like that lady. And he just left.
- [189:03]
E
He was only here for four days and he. He didn't even want to stay with us to watch it.
- [189:07]
A
Yeah, I don't really blame him. No, it wasn't great. Any other shows before we go? That's it. That's the all star team. Who's your favorite influencer right now?
- [189:16]
E
I love my Graydon Cutler, Hallie Bachelder combo. I've talked about them before on here. Also, like a local Boston resident, I'm always looking out for him whenever I'm on the streets. He's 6 foot 7, so he shouldn't be that hard to find. But there's some good people out there that I'm really liking right now. My most favorite person is this lady named Natasha and she is from California and she lives in Long Beach, I think. And she takes like four weed gummies and then tries different, different restaurants from, like, different ethnicities in different sorts of, like, areas of the world.
- [189:52]
A
Why do the weed gummies? What does that have to do. It makes her hungry.
- [189:54]
E
It makes her hungry.
- [189:55]
A
Okay.
- [189:55]
E
But she films it through, like these glasses that she wears and it's like you're eating. It's like you're eating. You're watching her eat. But it's from a first person. First person.
- [190:06]
A
Well, and you still love Therapist, but it's on vacation, right?
- [190:08]
E
No, Therapist just finished season two. I mean, I couldn't love that guy more. And his two friends, Julia Mervis and Peyton Perthur and Brett Chodi. All the people that surround him, I just would trust with my life. There's no One more that I'd want to be friends with if anyone was like, you can be friends with these five famous social media people. He's my number one.
- [190:30]
A
Cause all these influencers come and go, or they get canceled or they turn on each other, or they never seem to last longer than, like, nine months.
- [190:37]
E
Yeah. Well, I was trying to explain to mom the other day, like, how he came to be and how he gained success. And it was literally from him, like, getting high and then making these little skit videos that people would send in. I think his most famous one was, like, Abraham Lincoln finding his signature hat. But it's just like, these little stupid funny videos, almost simulated vine, and people just caught onto him, and his personality's so great, and he just created this entire, like, kingdom around just his personality and how he is. And he's lovable across the board. Everyone who's been on the pod loves him. He's buddies with every famous person. Yeah. Because he's so likable.
- [191:16]
A
I want to go on. I haven't been invited.
- [191:18]
E
I'm sure he'd like to have you.
- [191:19]
A
I would love to go on therapist just to impress you.
- [191:22]
E
Would you be able to give some recommendations to the pussies about, like, that's what he calls them, the pussies. Yeah, the therapists.
- [191:33]
A
Well, you said he's tapping into some trend that's happening right now where so many people are in therapy that he's crossed therapy with a podcast and interview thing. And he's somehow solved these three different things at the same time until one pot.
- [191:46]
E
Right. The mailbag segment, the life advice, the unsolicited therapy thing. And he's a trustworthy person. And I think it's hard for these influencers to be successful because they're so easy to see through. And it's like you're liked for this specific thing. Maybe you're the crazy party girl and that's your appeal, and you can get a certain audience or whatever your niche is, but he's just genuinely such a likable person, and people trust him and just want to listen to him. And that's why everyone keeps coming back.
- [192:16]
C
Yeah.
- [192:17]
A
You're almost too normal to have a pod. You would have to have a pod where you were the normal person with some crazy. I know.
- [192:21]
E
And have some crazy. Some crazy.
- [192:23]
A
Two crazy girls your age who just, like, tell stories every week about what they did. And you're kind of the calm one. Yeah, well, we're open for business of that. If we can get those two people ready to Go.
- [192:33]
E
But Stranger Things. We didn't finish who I think is gonna die. I'm just gonna throw it out there.
- [192:38]
A
Because we gotta go. So tell us who's gonna die. Give us two predictions.
- [192:41]
E
I hope to God Steve Harrington doesn't, but I'm assuming he will. Another big prediction that I saw on the Internet was that one or Vecna is gonna transfer his powers over to Will, who's one of eleven's best friends, which is gonna make it a more difficult time for him to kill him.
- [192:57]
A
I was wondering that could happen.
- [192:58]
E
Yeah.
- [192:59]
A
Yeah.
- [192:59]
E
So that's a potential. Regardless, let's all stream it together. I'm super excited about Stranger Things. Just excited for everything that's coming out.
- [193:08]
A
And tell the rest of the Thursday, I'm gonna be watching football after we eat and you'll be like up in your room watching Stranger Things on your phone.
- [193:16]
E
Done for the night.
- [193:17]
A
And then you. Then you fly back.
- [193:18]
C
Okay.
- [193:18]
A
It'd be great to see you, Zoe Simmons. Great season, by the way. You stayed healthy. Yeah, congratulations.
- [193:24]
E
I tried.
- [193:25]
A
It was great.
- [193:25]
E
Did good this year.
- [193:26]
A
Yeah, it was all right.
- [193:27]
E
It was successful. Oh, it was all right.
- [193:28]
A
No, no, it was good.
- [193:29]
E
Yeah, it was a successful year.
- [193:30]
A
I'm always happy when you're playing and you stay healthy. Yeah, those are my two goals.
- [193:35]
E
Got to it.
- [193:36]
A
But it was fun watching.
- [193:37]
D
All right, thanks, Dan.
- [193:37]
A
Good to see you, Zoe. Happy Thanksgiving.
- [193:39]
E
Thanks, guys. Bye.
- [193:40]
A
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsberry and thanks to Chris Ryan and thanks to House. Thanks to my daughter. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. Have a Great Thanksgiving. For Ringer 107. We're going to be posting all of our picks on Wednesday night. If you want to get some really mediocre. Is anybody going to get hot in the Ringer 107? I have no idea. We have five teams all treading water around 500. Will one of them get hot? We're about to find out. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Thanks for supporting the podcast. I will see you on a Sunday night. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 Plus. I'm President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gamma problem. Call 100 Gambler, visit rg-help.com, call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetican or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 247 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.