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The Bill Simmons Podcast
An NBA Six-Pack, Netflix’s WBD Pursuit, NFL Picks, and John Cena Finally Stops By, With Joe House and Matt Belloni
03:27:58
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by NBA on Prime. It's Bill Simmons here. The NBA on Prime is back this Friday with another great doubleheader. The action starts with one of the best rivalries in sports as Luka Doncicon, the Los Angeles Lakers face Jalen Brown and my favorite team, the Boston Celtics. And then Cooper Flagg and the Dallas Mavericks meet SGA in the Oklahoma City Thunder. Those are a couple good rivalry games. If you're a Prime member, that's great. If you're not a Prime member, not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started today. Lakers and Celtics, Mavericks and Thunder. Can the Celtics, even without Jason Tatum, beat the Lakers? God, I hope so. Maybe shoot a bunch of threes. Jaylen Brown always guards Luka Doncic. Well, I don't know. Not ruling out an upset for this. Coverage starts Friday at 6:30pm Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com amazonprime for details.
- [01:00]
The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have new rewatchables coming for you on Monday. Hopefully we are recording it tomorrow. There's a special guest. I don't wanna jinx it and tell you what movie it is, but I will tweet it from the Rewatchables account tomorrow after we record. After I know we've recorded it, but it's gonna be a fun one. I'm excited about it. I am recording the intro for a very long podcast. It's what time is it? 8:46 Pacific Time PT. I wanted to wait until after Lions Cowboys because this Cowboys renaissance was so much fun. Who knows they'd won today. They would have had a chance to put some real heat on the Eagles. Of course they lost. They couldn't stop the Lions. The Lions offense just did whatever it wanted. Dallas is now 66 and 1. They're not out of the playoffs. It's not looking great. They're they would have to sweep home Vikings home Chargers at Washington on Christmas at giants to finish 106 and 1. I think the ship that has sailed is the NFC east because The Eagles are 8 and 4 at the Chargers this weekend. House and I are about to do Ringer 107 picks. We both think the Eagles could beat the Chargers. They're home for the Raiders a home and home with Washington and at Buffalo. So I I just feels like Philly's going to get to probably 11 and 6 somehow. So the ship has sailed for Dallas except for wild card, but they just lost to one of the teams that they would have been competing for the wild card. So this might have been it. It would have been fun. One of the reasons I want to wait for the intro, because if Dallas did beat Detroit tonight, and I actually thought they were going to hang, CD Lamb got a concussion, you know, fairly early in the game, which, which didn't help them. But it would have been funny if they won this one because there would have been a real maybe Jerry Jones was the smart guy all along case. But that is, that ship has sailed too. And probably Dallas's playoff hopes have also sailed for. So for big picture, I think we have probably know who eight of the seven playoff teams are. If we go Rams, Chicago, Seattle, Philly, Green Bay, San Francisco, Tampa and Detroit, that's probably the list, barring a collapse from somebody. So somebody's going to get bounced. We'll see what happens. It still might be Detroit. That was a must win for them tonight, 3 and 5. So we'll see how it goes. They play at the Rams next week, which will have ramifications all over the place. Anyway, on the podcast today, House and I are going to talk some basketball at the top. And then we're going to do Ringer 107 picks. Matt Bellaney comes on next because we want to talk about this Warner Brothers sale. And then last but not least, John Cena. Finally, first time I've ever had him on my old pod, on this pod. First time we've ever had John Cena. And we go for 100 minutes and he came to the studio and I had a great time. So I got to update the Bellamy part really quickly, which I still think holds because we talked about all the, all the possibilities, all the ramifications, but we recorded it six hours ago. And Bloomberg, Lucas Shaw, our friend, and Michelle F. Davis reported that Warner Brothers has entered exclusive negotiations to sell its film and TV studios and HBO Max streaming service to Netflix. Cordon of people familiar with the discussion. So that means over the next few days this could play out. They could agree on a price and then we will see what happens. Will the government block it? Will Paramount sue? Will Paramount, I don't know. Can they try a hostile takeover while this is happening?
- [04:29]
Who knows? But this is the biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest media story we've had in the entertainment world. I think this decade, if Netflix, who hasn't bought anything, finally buys, buys Warner Brothers and gets all of their assets. So Matt and I talked about all the angles that's coming up. So it's House, basketball and football. Bellamy talking about the Warner Brothers sale and then John Cena. This is an absolute megapod. It's really good. It's all next. We're gonna take a break and then Pro Chip. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field but getting a line cook. Sure they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting help you need. State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor stay Farm is there.
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We're kicking things off with a special part of today's episode brought to you by Michelob Ultra. As the official beer partner of the NBA, they know the best moments on our off the court are served cold. So let's crack open a six pack as we dig into the most buzzworthy moments of the season so far and also a little NBA cup as well. And we'll talk about the superior play of the day. So Joe House is here. We're going to talk football picks a little bit later, but I wanted to keep you on so I could have somebody to throw off some NBA opin. We're just six opinions. You like beer? I don't know if the beer is going to throw you off. Look at it. Looks nice and cold and tasty.
- [06:33]
B
Six beers in there. I like that beer.
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A
Six things I want to start here and we can make this the superior play of this Michelob Ultra 6 pack that we're doing.
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Shea Gilgeous Alexander, very boring to talk about. Won the title last year, won the MVP. Scores 33 points a game. He's an assassin. His facial expression never changes.
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Not that fun of a topic. Not a lot to say. Not a lot of places to go. House. As we record this on Thursday afternoon Pacific time, Shea is averaging 32.8 points a game in 33.6 minutes. He's almost a point a game. To put this in perspective, the per 36 guys in history who have been over 35 points a game. Do you think Michael Jordan is on this list?
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B
I do.
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A
He is not.
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B
Wow.
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A
Wilt Chamberlain 1961, 62 his 50 point season, 37.36. Giannis this year, okay, 35.78. Just got hurt again. James Harden in 2019, 35.38. And then Shea playing no fourth quarters. Basically he's. He's missed 11 or I think he's missed Half of the season. In the fourth quarter, at 35.12, he's shooting 55%, 44% from three, 88% free throws. He's been 20 a night for almost 100 games. The record's 126. That's a record I actually care about. It's so fucking hard to score 20 a night. Think about that foul trouble. A night where you're off, a night where you get hurt in, like, the third quarter, they're on pace for a 75 win season. And right now he's like a slight, slight, slight MVP favorite on FanDuel. I think he's plus 155. Jokic is right after him. I don't see a scenario where he's not the MVP. Again. If this team wins, like, 75 games, what's the number where it's like, he has to be MVP?
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B
Honestly, to me, anything over 70 wins.
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A
So 70 and 12.
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There's basically no scenario if he plays the whole year and he's doing this, that he's not the end.
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B
He holds this level. I mean, the hard thing will be, how do you pay proper respect to the Joker? Because the Joker's going to average a triple double, and it's an impactful triple double. I mean, I, I. You mentioned Harden in 2019. Should have been the MVP. Or was that his MVP year? Which year did Westbrook still.
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A
His MVP was 18. Westbrook stall 17.
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B
17. Yeah.
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A
I forget who won 19.
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B
In any event, the.
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Case for the Joker who won?
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A
Giannis Yanis.
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B
Yeah, that makes sense.
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C
Yeah.
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B
The case for the Joker is going to be compelling as long as this Denver team gets to, like, 55 wins.
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A
Which is north of some injuries already. Yeah, they'd have to be mid-50s.
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B
I don't know where they're at right now.
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A
I think if we're over 70, I think it has to probably be Shay doing this. I'll throw one thing with Shay, beyond all the number stuff, he's hit the point. So I'm watching the warriors game the other night, and it's really fun. Seth Curry got to play, was really excited for our girl Callie.
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And they're hanging tough. They're throwing haymakers, and they're at one point. Did you see it? They're up. They're up like five with, like, four or five with, like, five minutes left. And you're just watching it going, I know how this is gonna end. This is Fucking Friday the 13th. Voorhees is gonna come into the cabin and he's gonna start killing People. And Shay just puts teams away, and you know he's gonna do it. You know what shots he's gonna get. And now it's like, I've never seen a guard just do this relentlessly night after night since we've had league pass. Jordan was doing this. We didn't have league pass.
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B
You know who else agreed with you? I was looking to live bet. I wanted to live bet Oklahoma City.
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C
Oh.
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A
When Golden State was like four, he was just like, jumping into it.
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B
The market's like, oh, here is ten and a half. Like, even though the game was only four points, it was like, here, you know, they have to win by. By ten and a half. That. That's. That's because I wanted some okc. I was like, golly, man, can't get any breaks.
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A
They're going to win so many games this year, and there's a million reasons for it. And they're like a perfectly constructed team and they're young and they're hungry, and they even have it seem like they have a little edge from them even from last year to, like, show, like, not only are we the champs, we're laying the smackdown this year.
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D
Yeah.
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A
But the shape piece, I've personally watched it swing five games. They're like, oh, they're going to lose tonight. And she's like, nah, we're actually not going to lose. I'm going to make every shot right now, and that's going to be it. So I'm starting the Six Pack with him. We'll go to Giannis really quickly. Talked with Max Kellerman on Tuesday. This is second for the Six pack. Talked to Max Kellerman about favorite Giannis destinations, and my favorite was Atlanta. Just from a trade package standpoint, before I tell you a mystery suitor, do you have a favorite Giannis trade destination? Because this really heated up last 48 hours. He did get hurt, but he's going to be back in a couple of weeks.
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B
I think Houston would be incredible. I think that the combination of youth and, you know, the kd, you know, last hurrah kind of vibe here.
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A
So what are you giving up?
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B
I'm not sure.
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A
It's like, is it putting Sengoon in that tar Eason, maybe getting Giannis.
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B
No, no, no. I like. It's a. It's a. It's a big package. It's a big package. It's a big package.
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A
So it's like a Reed Shepherd, Jabari Smith tardy saying, you're just trying to patch contracts together until you can get near the Honest number. I'm just hanging up unless Shanghu's in it.
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B
Okay, that's fair enough.
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A
If I'm the Bucks, I'm like, we're not just taking a shitty trade. Two different people mentioned this to me in the last 24 hours. I just wanted to mention this team, and it chills my bones. The heat of Miami.
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Two different scenarios. One has Bam in it, which I think if you're doing this, you probably try to keep Bam, but pretty easily you could do the three brothers, Giannis and his two brothers. They have to be in the trade. You got to take both of them.
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B
Okay.
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A
With Bobby Portis and you get back Hero and Bam Yakosonas, who needs to leave Miami because he's a pick and roll guy and they don't run pick and rolls and picks, and that's one. But I think the more likely one, which is interesting to me, three brothers, Hero, where. Who's good? Wiggins and picks.
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B
You think that's superior to Houston?
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A
It's a three for one. Well, here I'm getting a top 45 guy in the league who can put up 25 a night. I'm getting a really good young center who I'm shocked by how much he's progressed this year. I think he's really good. I'm not positive. He's perfect with Bam.
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And then I'm just getting a bunch of picks and a tradable contract in Wiggins.
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B
What are those?
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A
You don't like it?
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B
What are the picks?
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A
I'm just here. Whatever my picks are, here they are.
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B
I don't love it.
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I'm sorry to do this. I'm sorry to do this. Do you watch the end of the Dallas Mavericks and the Miami Heat? Miami was making a push. Dallas was playing quite, quite valiant. Your boy Cooper flag came through in the club. He did foul. He fouled on a play that they call the block. That's fine. He's getting some respect already. But Tyler Herro took a couple shots. I was like, man, this is not the time for that shot. You know what?
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A
They'll love it better.
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B
Tyler hero hoisting. Yeah.
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A
Well, I'll tell you this. The Yanis stuff is a very hard pause button calf strain. It looked bad when he fell down.
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B
But then I was.
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A
I was super careful with it. So now this goes through January. Now there's going to be more unhappy teams, but, yeah, the Miami piece of it, because the Bucks bait the. The thing that stood out to me was the. Was the. In the reporting and a lot of People did some good reporting about it. One of the people said that if he picks. If he decides he wants to go and he tells them the team, they'll try to get a deal done with the team out of respect to him. So if he says New York.
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He could say that. That. That's basically towns in anobi. There's so much apron complications with that Very good trade. Yeah, but I don't know if the Knicks can send both guys in the same trade. I'm still. The apron is the most crazy about that.
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C
Right.
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B
But he could.
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A
He could say, Atlanta sounds great. Figure it out.
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B
I mean, respectfully.
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To the great cities of Houston and Atlanta. Miami's got a natural advantage. Miami has an attraction. The brothers. Imagine what the brothers try to persuade him.
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A
Three brothers.
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B
Like, imagine my brothers telling me, yeah.
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A
He'S like the House brothers. There's, like, the meal ticket and then the two black sheeps. And they would be like, Tim and Rich House.
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B
We're going to use the House name on South Beach. You understand this?
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A
We're opening a bar.
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B
Yeah.
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A
All right. Speaking of Dallas, you mentioned them earlier. Obviously, I've been watching. We have a lot of Mavs futures. They started out a little season from heli, and then something has happened the last couple games as AD has started to look like AD again.
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B
Well, that's. That's one thing. That's one important thing.
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A
They started to actually play a real point guard. So Jason Kidd can no longer say that he was intentionally trying to tank to get Nico Harrison fired, because Nico Harrison is gone, and now he's playing a point guard.
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B
He was sitting right there.
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A
Nem hard was great AD stuff, and I know there's different trade possibilities for him, and I look forward when we launch the Max and Rich podcast next week, maybe Rich will talk about some of those scenarios. Who knows? Who knows what they're capable of that pod. I'm not trading Anthony Davis right now.
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I'm keeping him. Flag and Davis together.
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I need to see this more.
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B
Okay.
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A
I'm not. I'm hanging up on all calls. I just want to watch this for another month because they had too many big guys. They were playing Flag out of position. They put. They did him a real disservice, which I've talked about multiple times. But now he's in his right spot, where he's like a four. And now you have Gafford coming off the bench as, like, one more big man. But basically, you have a lot of Flag and AD together. That's like a winnable Combo as my four or five. I think that's really hard to deal with. Really hard to deal with defensively. It's great for Flag. I'm not fucking with that.
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B
So your point is you're not trading Anthony Davis in any 80 cent on the dollar because Dallas has to move. This is.
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C
This is your. Your what?
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B
You're arguing here. Like, why would Dallas at this.
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A
Why do I have to trade him?
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B
Right. Yeah, right. Make me a real.
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A
Am I getting Giannis back? Like, make me a real offer. I'm not trading him for, you know, Jakob Pertle and Emmanuel Quickley and some picks. Like, fuck off. I'm. I'd rather keep them. And. And Flag has been. I know you've. You've been a little focused on it. Flag has. Flag and Canipple have. Both look like they're 27 years old in some of these games.
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B
That. That's absolutely right. The Poise is. I mean, the Edgecomb as well. He. I treat him like a. Like a.
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A
He's.
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B
All of them make dumb plays a little. Yeah, but I'm just like, the Poise. They're. They're ready. They arrived in the NBA ready to play.
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A
I don't even want to tell you one of the texts I had about Knipple to a basketball friend of ours, of my comparison for him, because I would get laughed off the Internet. No, I've just been really impressed by that.
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B
Should I say it out loud? I know who you're talking about now.
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Havlichuk.
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A
I don't want to do it. I don't want to put it on him. I don't want to put it on him. No, I'm not something. I'm denying everything.
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B
Beeping that.
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A
There'S moments where he looks kind of like a taller Havichek. I got to be honest. He never stops moving. He's fundamentally perfect. He's got great posture. He's just additive. He can play, like, three positions, and he just looks a little havoc to me.
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B
So good.
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A
And Flag, I don't know if I've seen Flag before. What is Flag? I don't even know. What is he.
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B
Let's let it play out a little bit.
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A
But what is he? Who is his doppelganger? I don't even know. He's doing stuff where I'm like, I don't know what that is. Combo force.
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B
You have to take a whole bunch of guys, and unfortunately, you know, my brain goes immediately like, what four white guys is he most like? I have to make a combination.
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A
It's a cross racial comparison.
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B
Tom Chambers in there and then I see some AK47 in there. I'm not doing it. We're not doing it.
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A
I mean, really, it's more Tatumy than anything. Some of the stuff he's doing on offense, same size, same kind of as Tatum was trying to figure out his one on one game. Next thing on the six pack, Ironically, we're on a fourth beer right now. Ironically with Jason Tatum. Because here's what's changed.
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B
Fourth beer, Tatum.
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A
Well, here's what's changed, House.
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The Celtics season went from. We're one injury away from. We're probably going to be pretty bad. So why are we going to bring Tatum back, screw up a top 10 pick? We're not going to head to the playoffs anyway. I felt this way. I saw them in person a couple of weeks ago and I'm like, I don't see it. They have really, really turned into a decent basketball team. And Jalen has been a top 1315 guy in the league. He's going toe to toe. They just had this stretch where they played Orlando and the Knicks and Minnesota and Cleveland and one other really good team and they went 4 and 1.
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I forget the. There's a fifth team in there. They're all good and they really could have won five of the five. The one they lost was in Minnesota. And granted, this is part of the Ant package. Ant just made a couple of fucking crazy shots, which he does. I'm not like, oh, if he had him in, that's what he does. I get it. But they kind of had Minnesota in a spot where it felt like they could steal the game. And Missoula, I think, has done a good job. They have all these energy guys. They have an identity. Their offensive rating is like surprisingly, shockingly, really good. Kate has been a revelation as a center, and it's hit the point now where Tatum has to come back if he's. If he can play.
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C
Wow.
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A
Drew Smith has no Drew. Well, if. What's he going to do? So let's say he's cleared and ready to go in January. He's just not going to play for eight more months. Drew Smith's already playing with the same injury like these are. These could be eight, nine months. I. From everything I've heard across the board, he's been relentless and a maniac and passed every checkpoint and has done everything possible to come back as soon as possible. 100%, not 94%.
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B
Okay.
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A
And they're understandably being careful, but at some point, it's like, if he's ready to play what's. Let's play him. What are we waiting for? We might be like a five or a six seed. So I just, I feel more confident than ever with the way that this team has responded that he's going to be back. Wow. Not reporting it. I just, I watch this team and I think they're in a good spot.
- [21:37]
B
You're not saying that after four beers. You're saying it like it's my forbear.
- [21:41]
A
Opinion on the six pack. But listen, the whole organization, like, it's, it's, you know, they're trying not to talk about it. They don't want to put pressure on them. But. So what makes it. What makes you nervous about this?
- [21:53]
B
I've been wondering on this stretch of success that they. They've had about the, the challenge of this composition all season long, which is fourth quarter scoring. And I watched it a little bit against the Knicks and Jalen's just like, no, it's fine. We need a bucket. I'll go get us a bucket. And I wonder out loud how sustainable that is in view of the workload that he's carrying. Like this stretch. If you look at the, the minutes, the usage, the way that he's been efficient and the impact it has on the, on the roll, guys, he really does rise all the boats. You know, he's the rising tide. I don't want him to get hurt. So I'm knocking on wood with. With both hands. But that's not really.
- [22:39]
A
We appreciate that.
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B
Can he long. That would be part of the reason for Tatum to come back because it would take a lot of pressure off of it. That situation.
- [22:47]
A
They've been really good about his minutes. He's only been at 33 minutes a game this year. He's averaging 29 a game. I was so happy because I. I've absolutely loved this Jaylen season and he actually really did get better at a couple things, including he has this move now that he did not have before. And he would try to do it and half the time would drip off his foot. But he goes hard like he's driving in the basket and then he does like a hard stop and a really low crossover dribble that. Cause these teams would always dive down and try to pick his dribble. He does this hard, low dribble now and then this little fallback 12 footer and I swear to God, he makes like 90% of them. It's like unstoppable. It's like this demar derosa mid range game that he just didn't have last year. And he's able to shoot threes, go to the basket or get like his shot. Selection's been really smart and I was so happy for him on Tuesday in that Knicks game because I think that was a, that's a big, that was a big marquee, big stage, big peacock game, Knicks, Celtics. And he sucked in the first quarter and all these people I've watched the Celtics out here, I was like oh great. Of all the games that he's going to suck in this one when everyone's watching. And then he rallied back and he killed the Knicks.
- [23:59]
C
He did, he did.
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A
They didn't have og but he like really went after him and brought it to him. So I think he's gone up a level and it's great for Tatum because when Tatum comes back he's not going to have to be the Tatum from last year. Right. You're just kind of moving him in and giving him the 27, 28 minutes a game. Anyway, they're the 6 seed right now. The problem with them is Brown, Pritchard, White, Keda, these four guys, if any of them gets hurt, this craters. They basically need 30 minutes from all of them. But this is the first time this five game stretch, Detroit, Orlando, the Knicks and Cleveland they beat, almost beat Minnesota where it's like this team's like pretty good. And you add Jason Tatum who is the fifth best player in the league last year. They're going to be better than pretty good.
- [24:42]
B
It's a shame you couldn't keep kept Cornette see his game saving block.
- [24:47]
A
I know we love Cornet. Couldn't pay, couldn't pay him. Simons is a little bit of an X factor because I don't think Joe trusts him.
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B
Yeah, sure.
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A
But he does have some good one on one stuff and I think they're falling into him maybe being the six man anyway, fifth one the Chris Paul with an all time. Everything ends badly other times otherwise it wouldn't end Final season. I just. House, I gotta ask you, has there ever been a six months like this for an NBA team that you can remember? Starting with game seven against Denver when they took the most massive shit possible on the biggest possible stage. Just terrible. Immediately awful for Hardin. From that moment on this has been an absolute train wreck. And I don't remember anything like this.
- [25:41]
B
It's only rivaled by another era with this very same organization. Which is when the owner turned out to be a virulent racist. Yeah, like with where his Words were taped and published when the team was pretty goddamn good, right?
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A
Had a chance to make the finals.
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C
That's.
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A
Yeah, that's a worse like in the moment thing. Blowing the lead to Houston. They've had worse things. But this stretch, that game seven, the aspiration scandal that we don't even know what the publisher the punishment is going to be yet, but hugely embarrassing for everybody and a big plague over the season. They signed your guy, Bradley Beal, who then immediately got hurt. They signed Brook Lopez, who's just washed now. He can't play, unfortunately. Horrible start, Norm Powell, who they trade because they won't give him an extension. Thriving in Miami. The Lakers are thriving in general and look like a contender. They have all this Chris Paul weirdness. They don't have their pick. They're giving their pick to a team that might win 73 games. And on top of all this, the All Star game is here at the aspiration Dome in February. I can't think of a worse run than this.
- [26:54]
B
I mean, you didn't even include the legal jeopardy of Ty Lou's two best friends.
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A
Oh, I forgot about that.
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C
There's.
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B
I think he was at some of those poker games.
- [27:08]
A
He was all right though. He was just playing. Yeah, I forgot about that one. That wasn't great either. So, yeah, this Clippers thing.
- [27:16]
I don't see it getting better. They did win last night, which was they beat somebody that you're missing a.
- [27:23]
B
Box because yes, 10 second rant. Jalen Johnson was a late scratch. Like, here's the thing, everybody. If you're gonna bet on the NBA, don't do it during early in the day. There are no good numbers early in the day.
- [27:38]
A
Yeah, just wait till the last possible.
- [27:39]
B
Second goddamn clue who's playing. I laid two and a half on Atlanta early in the day. Like, okay. I like the situation. Doing like sensible matchup stuff in, you know, five o'.
- [27:52]
C
Clock.
- [27:52]
B
Jalen Johnson's out. Oh, well, good bye. Bye money. I mean, you have to edge out of it, which I did.
- [27:57]
A
You got to wait till the last 10 minutes. Six thing for the six pack. I'm kind of excited for the NBA cup matchups. Can we rank these from four to one?
- [28:07]
B
Yeah, let's go.
- [28:07]
A
I think all these teams are going to try and I'm always, I'm always ready to watch any basketball team where I have 100% certainty that both sides.
- [28:14]
B
Care they're going to compete.
- [28:16]
D
Let's go.
- [28:18]
A
I'll give you the four options. We have the all Florida battle, Miami versus Orlando. We have the Knicks going to Toronto.
- [28:27]
Sun stunter Dylan Brooks just probably trying to as close to being kicked out as possible that getting kicked out. And Lakers, spurs, no Wimby.
- [28:41]
What do you got for number one?
- [28:43]
B
I think Sun Thunder is super live. I just think there, there is so much.
- [28:51]
Because the general public hasn't really seen the Suns yet. People don't really have their heads around.
- [28:58]
A
Betting on the mo year.
- [28:59]
B
They're number one against the spread. They're number one in the entire NBA against the spread. So, yes, I try and make profitable bets.
- [29:07]
A
I just needed this Colin Gillespie thing. I need amazing Connor Gillespie. Colin Gillespie. I need some sort of explanation for how this happened, where this guy has become such an awesome point guard. They had him on the team last year.
- [29:22]
B
This is an unbelievable example of addition by subtraction. You really can't overstate how much it sucked to have, you know, those three guys who clearly were not on the same page. Not saying a bad thing about any one of them individually, but it clearly was, you know, and whatever was going.
- [29:43]
A
On, the vibes were so horrible. Yeah, Mannix, bud. Well, that too, man. And your guy, Bradley Mannix texted me that the vibe at the Clippers game that he went to last weekend was actually worse than the vibe from the Suns games last year, which I thought was the most damning thing I heard about the Clippers. I hope I. I'm sure he said that on his podcast too. But yeah, they better vibes. They really give a shit. And I think there's a real Dylan Brooks conversation to be had. Every team that he's on really, really, really tries. It's the one thing you can count on. And over and over again, he's on the team. That gives. Seems like it gives more of a shit.
- [30:23]
B
It's part of the reason why I'll forever hold Russell Westbrook in such high esteem. Not, not, not a guy that like, you know, style of play wise is I, I've ever been able to really wrap my head around always like, you know, where's the IQ element? Especially on defense. Hoops IQ I'm talking about. But God damn, that guy cares. God damn, he tried hard. God damn, he dragged a terrible Washington team to the playoffs.
- [30:50]
A
He did three bounds.
- [30:51]
C
Yes.
- [30:52]
A
He fills up this box square. All right, so you have Sun's Thunder first.
- [30:58]
I have Miami. Orlando first.
- [31:00]
B
Okay.
- [31:01]
A
I like what's going on with this Orlando team and there's some interesting pallo questions.
- [31:09]
Not going to bring any of them up, but there's just some questions. Some things I always get suspicious when somebody loses their best player and then immediately looks like the team has fallen into place. I'm just monitoring. Miami has been really fun to watch and I hate myself for saying that. As I mentioned, every time it's really fun.
- [31:25]
B
They revamped. They went into the lab in the summer. Like, you know what? We're not going to be as last in pace any longer.
- [31:31]
A
I like their style.
- [31:32]
B
What if we're first in pace? Let's go try that. Oh, yeah. All of a sudden, here we go.
- [31:37]
C
Interesting.
- [31:38]
A
Let's push the ball, spread the floor. You have the ball, attack the basket. That's why my guy Yakoshinas hasn't. Hasn't played. That's not his game. They should trade him. Trade him to free him.
- [31:49]
B
Free Yakushutas.
- [31:53]
A
I would put Lakers, Spurs.
- [31:56]
I would have Knicks, Toronto last. That would be my four. I would go, so you have Sun's thunder one. I have Miami Orlando one. So we'll flip those for one and two and then Lakers purse three, Knicks, Toronto four. Okay, I think that's fair.
- [32:12]
B
I just psyched for all of them. There's a great mix of upstart teams like who had Toronto, you know, showing up and showing up in this instance. And I think on that big stage, it's a good test because the Knicks are not going to be like, oh yeah, let's, let's accommodate Toronto here. That's. That's going to be fun to watch.
- [32:29]
A
I think they, they need to add NBA awards that I can vote for at the end of the year because I'm not allowed to bet on any of the awards. So I'd rather just vote for more awards.
- [32:38]
B
You want more awards?
- [32:39]
A
I want more awards. I. Scotty Barnes deserves some sort of.
- [32:43]
D
Award.
- [32:45]
A
And I was thinking the category would be I never really liked watching you, but now I do.
- [32:54]
Something like that. I've really enjoyed watching Scotty Barnes this year, and I did not enjoy his game for the years before something clicked in his head. I like how unselfish he is. I like his physicality. I've just really enjoyed everything he's done. Thumbs up Scotty Burns.
- [33:09]
B
If we were going to be like, you know, even more gracious towards Scotty about it, what was going on was the Toronto organization with this inexplicable tank concept that got Masai fired because he really couldn't explain it to anybody. And they just kind of floundered and it never really made sense or translated into impactful draft picks. And so they went the other direction. And it's pretty a pretty interesting team this year.
- [33:38]
A
It helps them that they have Ingram who can look like Discount Durant sometimes and has that. It was funny to watch him that one game when he hit the game winner, they gave it to him and he flipped the ball almost like Rondo style before he started his move because he's like, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going left, I'm pulling up and I'm making it. He made it with like an incredible amount of confidence. Then the next game they played Charlotte and it was same situation in Charlotte because they have a good coach was saying there's no fucking way you're doing that move again. So as he started they just sent two guys to the spot and double teamed him. But that's taking that load off Barnes. Plus he's older but I've been really impressed by him. Anyway, that's our six pack. If you want even more, grab yourself a pack of Michelo Beltra. Plus Ultra is getting you closer to the action with a chance to win exclusive prizes including courtside tickets and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobelcher.com courtside Michelob Ulcher courtside 2526 no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/ begins on October 1, 2025. Ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelobucher.com quartzsite for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. We're going to take a break and talk football. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everybody really hungry. Quarterback scrambles, clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah, turnover. Suddenly dessert at 2pm doesn't sound so crazy. Wing formations, well, those can only mean Buffalo wings. As if they're ever not in play. Even the goal posts start looking suspiciously like French fries. It's almost like football. Sending the message to eat more food. Yeah. The good news, Ubereats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long. From wings and pizza to chips, drinks, and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. All right, before we get to the games that we really like, we gotta talk about FanDuel. Now, live in Missouri. And to celebrate, we're turning to the expert who's had more barbecue than any white man alive, Mr. Joe House. To rank his Favorite Missouri dining establishments. I know you've dabbled a few times here. What do you got?
- [35:59]
B
Well, I don't think I'm going to rank the establishments. What I'm going to do is celebrate a very unique aspect of the Kansas City barbecue scene and the nationwide. Everybody you know claims they have. Texas has its barbecue, Carolina has its barbecue. But there is only one place you can go to get burnt ends. This place is Kansas City, Missouri. And there are a number of phenomenal establishments that have really made their mark with the burnt ends. Now, if you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, it is the tip of a brisket. And over time, it's kind of evolved. Now, a lot of times what folks will do is cube up a piece of the sort of fatty part of the brisket and then they, they re smoke it. It's been prepared, then you cube it, then you re smoke it. They're magnificent. They're a one of a kind. And there are several establishments in Missouri. Kansas City, Missouri. I don't know who lays claim to the. The OG original.
- [37:01]
A
It might be everyone's a winner. We don't need to pick a winning establishment. The point is, go get some burnt tips in Kansas City ends in Kansas City.
- [37:09]
B
You could go to Gates, Arthur Bryant, you want to go to Joe's, Jack Stack. LC is apparently top of the list. I've tried a bunch of. I haven't tried lc. That, that's, that's got to get on my list.
- [37:20]
A
But burnt ends in kickstacks actually with Dave Jacoby at MLB All Star Weekend in 2012.
- [37:26]
B
I hope you got burnt ends while you were there.
- [37:27]
A
Please tell me I made the mistake of eating too much. And then we had to do like an interview with somebody and I was like in a barbecue coma. It was great.
- [37:33]
B
That's. That's what I do.
- [37:35]
A
That's all stuff you can do in Missouri. You can also gamble in Missouri because FanDuel is now live in Missouri and they're celebrating with a ton of great promotions and rewards for everyone. So sign up today. Take advantage of this weekend. All right, let's talk about our favorite NFL games. A lot of football has happened since the last time we, we talked. We had all those Thursday Friday games, Sunday game. Suddenly the Pats are considered to be the best team in the NFL, which is even as a Pats fan who loves the Pats, I would say that's probably ridiculous, but speaks to where we are at the season, where nobody can even figure out a team to make the favorite. We do not have an OKC in the NBA house, but what we do have is picks and you and I once again started out great last week. It went sideways. I want to use this as an opportunity to talk about a bunch of games with a bunch of playoff implications. Can we stay away from Seahawks? Falcons?
- [38:26]
B
That's fine. Numbers too big like the Falcons there.
- [38:31]
A
Like the Falcons a little. But I'm not betting Curtz.
- [38:33]
B
I'm not betting the Falcons anymore.
- [38:34]
A
We're not betting Kirk Cousins against the number one defense.
- [38:37]
B
Definitely not.
- [38:38]
A
No thank you. Seahawks by seven. No thanks. Not doing bucks minus eight and a half against the Saints. Never tell who's playing for the bucks.
- [38:44]
B
Way too many points.
- [38:45]
A
The Saints QB is just good enough that I almost wanted to throw Saints plus eight and a half in there, but I feel like we've taken them before and they couldn't beat Miami last week. They're out. Rams -7 and a half at Arizona there's some backdoor potential. I just no thanks. High favorite on the road. I don't know what to make Arizona and then I mean the Rams.
- [39:06]
B
The only here's the case for the Rams three pieces. It's Sean McVeigh in December. He absolutely owns Arizona. Especially in Arizona and they lost last week so that would be the case. They are going to come in and just beat the crap out of out of poor Jacoby Brissette.
- [39:24]
A
All right, I'll put them in the parlay pile.
- [39:27]
The maybes It's a really weird Dolphins jets game that initially I like the Dolphins. Right. And then it ended up it's so Dolphins minus three is the line right now. Yeah, think it is.
- [39:40]
B
Yep.
- [39:42]
A
But the jets have been pretty good the last five games to the point. Then I was like, oh maybe we should take the Jets. Then I'm like, well if I'm changing my mind of the game, probably a stay away. The special team stuff is crazy in this. The jets are first at Davoa and Miami's fourth. Yeah so I guess that's going to decide the game. I'd rather not find out with our money on it. It's going to be 40 degrees though.
- [40:02]
B
House that there's your thing. There's your thing now I've said on a couple podcasts this week I'm no longer making bets based on what I we think the weather's going to do because it really stuck us really in a sweet place in that Browns game where we were like oh my party can purdy throwing the 50 mile winds in Cleveland get out of here with that. But for sure it's going to be cold in New York in the. I'm just going to call it the Meadowlands on. On Sunday. And it's for sure the case that Tua is going to be the quarterback of the Miami Dolphins playing in the cold up there in the Meadowlands. That's true.
- [40:42]
A
Sounds like you're kind of intrigued by this one.
- [40:46]
B
I like the way the jets have been playing. They.
- [40:48]
A
They have.
- [40:49]
B
They are conceding no ground. They are trying hard.
- [40:57]
I've been impressed.
- [40:57]
A
3.
- [40:59]
B
Just put it on. Just table it for a minute.
- [41:01]
A
All right, that's.
- [41:02]
B
That would be my inclination, though.
- [41:04]
A
Browns minus three and a half against the Titans Browns defense at home Browns burned us last week. I thought it was a really stupid game. Here's so initially I had this down. Here's why I decided against it. And I was thinking a lot about how the Browns completely F'd us and everyone else who bet on them last week and all the stupid shit they did. And it made me wonder, like, is this a secret Tank team?
- [41:30]
I was on Brown's Reddit. Really fun place, by the way. Enjoyable, enjoyable tour through the Browns Reddit. And I can't say they're enthusiastic about Kevin Stefanski was one of my takeaways. And some people are like, we don't know if he's trying to tank, but if you were trying to tank, you would do some of the stuff you did in that game. And it makes me not want to take them in this Titans game. So I think it's a stay away. Is that fair?
- [41:56]
B
Yeah. And we have to look at each other Sunday afternoon and say we laid three and a half with Shador. We laid three and a half points with Shador.
- [42:07]
A
Greg Cassell had a thing. He was on some show. I follow him on Twitter and he posts the clips. Sometimes I enjoy the Greg Cassell clips, but he had this thing about how he's still at the college speed and he hasn't graduated at the pro speed now. It's like, that's the perfect way to put it. It's not quite at the pro yet.
- [42:23]
B
So good.
- [42:24]
A
The problem with the Browns is you go down nine plus points with them and the game's over.
- [42:29]
B
Game's over. Exactly.
- [42:31]
A
They were 10 to 8. I was like, they might be able to do this. And then it was 17. 8. It's like, I'm done.
- [42:36]
B
The coach thinks he should. They go for it on from their own 30. Do you know that that San Francisco had five drives start on the, on the Cleveland side of the 50 yard line. I'm aware.
- [42:46]
A
I watched the whole game and I was losing my mind.
- [42:48]
B
Scored 21 points by starting on the 35 yard line of Cleveland. What?
- [42:54]
A
That was the. That was the dumbest thing all year that I saw. We can't bet him.
- [42:59]
B
It's a shame because that, that Brown defense is so good.
- [43:02]
A
But we can't bet them.
- [43:03]
B
Can't bet them.
- [43:04]
A
Next. Maybe for me. The Vikings are favored by 1 1/2 at home against your team house Washington coming off a week where Max Brosmer just kept throwing picks like he was handing out turkeys on Thanksgiving. As a professional athlete.
- [43:19]
Your team looked good and it almost makes me not want to take them this week because they look good last week and almost beat Denver and I don't know what's going on, which quarterback you're getting, but I just, I don't want to be involved in this game if that's okay. It's just a Stay away from me. You okay with that?
- [43:35]
B
Yeah, it looks like Jaden Daniels, but.
- [43:40]
A
Then he's not healthy. Like I don't like that scenario. Mariota. Minnesota makes me nervous. Every that's Minnesota offensive scenario makes me nervous. I just want to stay away.
- [43:51]
B
It's fine to stay away. I just want to tip my hat to the Minnesota defense because that Seattle game was nerve wracking. I had my favorite bet, my best bet. I gave it out on the ringer pregame show with Seattle -6 and a half in the first half just to cover a little seven point line and the dramatic, possibly the one of the greatest quarterback plays. Brosmer, just a miracle cover for me in that spot. But that Minnesota defense had Sam Darnold seeing stuff like he had Sam Donald's face. Don't let anybody convince you otherwise. And Minnesota's defense was bringing it. They brought pressure. I'm not, I don't want to have anything to do with that for this Washington team.
- [44:35]
A
That's one of the reasons the Seahawks were a stay away from me against the Falcons because I haven't loved how their offense we keep seeing Sam Donald.
- [44:43]
B
Face like three out of the last.
- [44:45]
A
Four.
- [44:46]
They traded for Shaheed and I basically he seems like he's a punt returner and now it just seems like I don't know like JSN last week who I had in had in one of my leagues. But it, it was frustrating because it just seemed like they were like you're not catching the ball.
- [45:04]
All right. Parlay possibilities. Rams, Cardinals is in There Broncos at the At Vegas I guess but I something scares me about Vegas. Like they finally figured out just throw the ball to Brock Bowers all the time does work.
- [45:19]
B
It's within 50ft. He manages. He's incredible.
- [45:22]
A
And Denver is just clearly going to be this team that pulls wins out of their ass all year. Raven Steelers. Oh, that's Ravens minus five and a half.
- [45:33]
I don't like the Ravens that much. I'm not afraid of them when the Pats play them. I don't think they're that good of a football team. The I mean there's been a lot written about this and discussed about this this week about Rogers in the Steelers offense and how horrible it is and how it's like actually there's historical precedents being kicked now with how little the lack of explosive plays, how he never throws the ball more than five yards.
- [46:00]
B
No 20 yard completions.
- [46:02]
A
It's like over and over again. Everywhere you go there's terrible stats about how bad the offense is. And then the flip side of it is that these games are always close. I feel like this burned me last year with this mentality of Ravens, Taylors, it's always close. But the Dogs do cover most of the time.
- [46:18]
B
75% of the time the underdog covers.
- [46:22]
A
I just feel like the Steelers are shot offensively. I don't even know what you do if you're them on offense other than just try to run the ball. Maybe they're going to be able to do that against the Ravens. But is the Ravens a parlay team for you or is this just a stay away Cause I don't like them either.
- [46:36]
B
Yeah, I'd be inclined to stay away. I the only thing I bet the under as soon as the the number came out because the classic AFC North I think I got it around, I don't know 43 and a half something but it might have opened far north of that either way.
- [46:51]
A
Okay.
- [46:52]
B
I don't it's in the tic tac zone.
- [46:55]
A
Well here's one that I know you're gonna oh no Tic tac.
- [46:57]
B
It's Vegas zone.
- [46:58]
C
Pardon me. Pardon me.
- [46:59]
A
Vegas. I know I'm gonna be able to talk you into the Bengals in a parlay as as a dog. I know you're ready.
- [47:07]
B
No, no, no, no.
- [47:09]
A
Why not?
- [47:10]
B
Because if the Bills can run the ball the way that they did against the Steelers and I think they can run the ball the way they did against the Steelers and it's the Bills.
- [47:18]
A
At home, I kind of 1% chance of snow house.
- [47:22]
B
I kind of don't mind laying the points. I kind of don't mind laying the points. That Bengals defense is. Remains not good. It's better.
- [47:31]
A
They're pretty frisky.
- [47:33]
B
Good effort against the Patriots two weeks.
- [47:37]
A
Ago that they're frisky. Frisky on Thanksgiving.
- [47:40]
B
They're improved, Improving. But go into Buffalo, this is, you know, Buffalo understands that it can cede no more ground. I mean I've been using that today.
- [47:54]
A
Well, so the case for Buffalo because I think everybody feels like Buffalo's had a disappointing season and it's basically because they don't get explosive plays anymore because none of their receivers can do that. But I think they figured that out.
- [48:06]
B
No separation.
- [48:06]
A
Now they're trying to do last year's Chiefs routine with like run the ball, run the ball, short passes.
- [48:10]
B
It's pretty good.
- [48:13]
A
I always mention this. I keep track of wins, losses, either or games.
- [48:16]
B
You do.
- [48:17]
A
Buffalo has eight legitimate wins.
- [48:21]
I think they have the most wins of anybody. Of just outright, I guess the Pats have eight, maybe a couple others have eight. Nobody has nine, but they're eight. I have them eight, two and one. And the only either or game was that Ravens comeback game in Week 1. Other than that, other wins are legitimate. And I said this last week, that Texans Thursday night game, which seemed like a bad loss for them to play in three days rest. They're playing a Texans team that I think you and I both love and they almost won the game.
- [48:49]
B
The Bill very well suited that Texans team to, you know, turn Josh Allen into a one dimensional player. Particularly well suited the Houston team with.
- [49:01]
A
All that said Joe Burrow with the playoffs on the line and the AFC north and absolute shambles.
- [49:11]
I just think he's going to move the ball. Okay, so maybe, maybe there's an overplay for us or maybe it's like Bill's money in the over. Something like that. Okay, I guess there is snow. I don't know. Table it. All right? The ones that I like the most. What's the game you like the most?
- [49:25]
B
The Eagles.
- [49:27]
A
I have that down. Eagles minus two and a half at the Chargers. Jalen Carter's out. And I guess the question is, does it matter where Philly plays because their fans hate them. Aren't they better off playing on the road?
- [49:37]
B
Who's gonna, are they gonna get cheers or booze? Because the LA crowd isn't going to be, you know, there's no LA crowd showing up for the, for the Philly.
- [49:47]
A
Transplants who live here, but they're all Going to be so grateful to see their team in person. They're not going to boo the first time they go through.
- [49:53]
B
Think about that, how good it's like.
- [49:56]
A
Thanks for coming to see me 3,000 miles away. It's going to be a happy crowd.
- [49:59]
B
It's an incredible number. When we don't know for sure that just going to play. This is.
- [50:04]
A
It's like if he does play, he's gonna have a broken hand, right?
- [50:08]
B
He can't play on. They can't really go for on any 4th and short because he can't be the quarterback. The Trey Lance has to come out and be the quarterback. Anytime I see Trey Lance on the field, that's like, that's a win. Let's go. All right, sign me up.
- [50:22]
A
Plus, you have the Eagles 10 days rest. Eagles coming off a terrible loss.
- [50:27]
B
They have, they. They've sucked since the second half against Dallas. They've sucked.
- [50:32]
A
So I watched all of that Chargers game last week. Cause there's only three games and I was in a fantasy thing where I had Brock Bowers, I was going against somebody, I had Genti. So I was like locked in. And I don't know, the Raiders kind of hung around in that game in a way that was a little disturbing. And you realize like, and Max Crosby was doing stuff every once in a while and the Raiders just aren't good. They're not well coached. They just don't have enough talent. But they, they kind of hung around in that game in a way that I thought would have been alarming if I was a Chargers fan. Plus Herbert, you know these guys we saw with Rogers last week, you have broken hand, you get sacked, you fall on your hand, you're trying to protect the hand, you fumble. Like there's so many ways this can go wrong with a fucked up hand.
- [51:17]
B
It just feels like stealing to get the Eagles at anything less than a field goal when I honestly don't. I'm not positive he's playing. I'm not sure it makes a ton of sense for them.
- [51:28]
A
Plus, even like he had a terrible throw around in the red zone last week. I don't think he's been laid out. The guy that scares me in this game is Vidal. Especially if Carter's not playing. I wonder if they can run the ball on them and. But the thing with me is like, should the Chargers be like an 11 win team? It's the kind of game you should lose. Philly needs it. I'm with you. I like, I like the Eagles and they should be able to sort this stuff out. The one, there's three that I really like. Well, two that I really like. One that I kind of like. I'll give you the kind of like first the Bears plus six and a half and Green Bay. And you were on Green Bay last week. That was one of the ones we hit. The fear would be Caleb and Lambeau. To me, this seems like a flash sale line to me.
- [52:15]
Like, why isn't this line three and a half or four? There's still like a little untrustworthiness with the Bears, but I feel like with what they did against Philly and how they ran the ball and how good their offensive line is. The old Lombardi phrase, bad offensive lines don't travel. They have a good offensive line and they're an outdoor team and this seems like the kind of game they should hang around with. And it's a lot of points.
- [52:35]
B
It's too many points.
- [52:38]
Green Bay hasn't covered as a favorite by this number this entire season. Green Bay is great when they're an underdog or where the line is tight. Green Bay by this number, like, look it up. They flat out just don't cover, don't come close to covering this. This number. I think the Bears see this. What, what helps the Bears is it's going to be freezing, effing cold. It's going to be like single digit cold. Yeah. And they are going to run. They're going to just try and run the football. But to. To the credit, like, the offensive line was a point of emphasis in the off season. And then they arrived with a head coach who actually can scheme up an offensive line, a protection package and some run packages that are synergistic. So it's not just we got guys, we got guys and now we have a plan also. And the way that they ran against Philadelphia, now I don't expect a repeat against of that because by epa, Green Bay is pretty good, but they're only like middle of the pack in terms of win rate in terms of defensive rush. But I think that the Bears will try and establish the run and that creates at least a little bit of room for, for Caleb. Nobody's asking Caleb to go, you know, win the game. It's if you are, then you're going to lose the game. Because we're still early in his career. But I think that six and a half is a crazy number to me.
- [54:02]
A
I like that they're going to be able to block. I also like that the one great thing he has is the scrambling, his ability to get out of trouble. Three, four and Drake May does this too. Three, four times a game. He can just. It seems like it's going to be a sack and it isn't. And as inaccurate as he is, it's still a good quality. I just think they hang around. I also felt like we had the packers and then Thursday game. There was a few moments where they needed a first down or they needed a play and I never knew where they were going and it would be like, whoa, Wicks made a play and Dobbs and it's like I didn't really trust Watson will have his one play long. Right. But I didn't really trust them series to series where they were going on like a third and seven, third and eight and now Wicks is hurt. He's got the red flag next to him.
- [54:46]
B
I was nervous that whole game against. Against Detroit. I mean Detroit, you know, played pretty good.
- [54:53]
A
They're in a lot of trouble.
- [54:54]
B
Different class. But the other thing.
- [54:56]
A
Too many points for the Bears.
- [54:57]
C
Yeah.
- [54:57]
B
And other. I like the Chicago's finally got its secondary healthy and it's a good secondary like we've been waiting all season like every. The highly touted Chicago secondary. This is the time that you need them against this Green Bay team. Yeah. It's too many points.
- [55:12]
A
Are we taking the Bears a lot of confidence? Yeah, I think we should. Cold weather team. Built for. Built for AQ's in Lambo. Yeah.
- [55:20]
B
You're fine with it.
- [55:20]
A
Great.
- [55:23]
Jags, Colts.
- [55:23]
B
Can't believe we're doing that.
- [55:25]
A
Jags, Colts, Jags. Plus one and a half against the Colts. You're making a face. Why are you making a face?
- [55:33]
B
I just don't know what to do with this game. This game comes.
- [55:35]
C
All right.
- [55:35]
A
Well, I'm going to tell you, this is going to be one of my picks.
- [55:37]
B
Oh, good. Okay.
- [55:38]
A
Thank God Jags are plus one and a half.
- [55:44]
Why does it confound you? By the way.
- [55:47]
B
Jacksonville owns the Colts. In Jacksonville you'll hear the stat a million times. Raheem has it, you know, he's been talking about it since. Since Monday. The Colts haven't won in Jacksonville since 2015. Something like that.
- [56:04]
A
Remember we were talking about home Browns outdoor Colts to me is a thing too. I thought dimes looked terrible last week. You can't move.
- [56:12]
C
Great.
- [56:13]
A
Dimes can't move.
- [56:14]
B
That's the handicap, right?
- [56:15]
A
Bad weather.
- [56:16]
B
Because what they have to do the Colts is establish the run. They can't have Jacksonville, who surprisingly can put some pressure on. On the quarterback. They can't have him tee. Teeing up and teeing off on. On Jones. He can't move.
- [56:31]
A
Jacksonville's not bad. They're frustrating because of Lawrence. Thomas is going to hopefully be back more this week. But they can run the ball, which I've noticed with them. Like, they. They actually can. Like, they can run inside, right down the church on the outside. Yeah, they can run the ball for real at home.
- [56:47]
B
So that's, like, the pathway for them. Can they do that to replicate that against the Colts? You can't have Trevor Lawrence throwing the ball that. Then. Then you hate yourself.
- [56:56]
A
74% chance of rain.
- [57:00]
I think that's good for bad weather. Rainy outdoor game. I just like the Jags.
- [57:06]
B
Okay.
- [57:07]
A
I don't want Daniel Jones, who can't move around, no sauce gardener, in this game again. And I think the Colts for the last month have just been different than those first seven weeks. There's just no question. Every stat says it.
- [57:18]
B
Yeah, well, they. They were. They traveled. They had all of this travel. They played away games, outdoor games, grass games. Somewhere in there, Jones got hurt, and then it was supposed to be come home against Houston, get right. But they can't get right because my man Danny, Indiana Jones has a broken fibula, apparently.
- [57:40]
A
They're like, it's fine. He can move around on it. Yeah, it sounds great. I also like this Jags home crowd. I thought they were good in the Chiefs game.
- [57:48]
B
Okay.
- [57:51]
A
Yeah, I think they're. I think that crowd can dial it up every once in a while.
- [57:55]
B
It's funny to take the Jags and then watch Trevor Lawrence and then send each other texts. That all by itself is funny. So let's do it. I'm endorsing this pick because.
- [58:06]
A
Well, one thing I was thinking for your Sunday show.
- [58:08]
C
Yeah.
- [58:10]
A
Like, I wonder if there's, like, a jags by 14 and a half. Kind of like, blowout bet.
- [58:17]
Cause, like, there's a world where this game goes horrible for the Colts.
- [58:22]
You know, it's like, Jones can't move. No, but it's just like the Jags, like, they pour it on, the weather's shitty, and all of a sudden you're like, whoa. In Jacksonville, they scored again, eight to one. They're 14 and a half. Just mentioned that. All right. I like the Jags. That's one of the picks. And then last one. I knew we would agree on this one. Texans. Chiefs. It's in Kansas city. Texans are plus three and a half. It's gonna be 25 degrees. It's a night game. The Chiefs have major offensive Line issues, including their left tackle's gone. I think Taylor's gone too.
- [58:56]
B
Yeah.
- [58:58]
A
And they have the best defense in the league.
- [59:02]
This just feels like a miracle kind of matchup for them. Depleted offensive line, cold weather. It's a cold weather and defense game. And I don't know, the Texans can run the ball. I think they're really good and I think they're going to make the playoffs, which means they have to win this game.
- [59:20]
B
They, they cannot lose, lose this game and, and still have hope of making the playoffs.
- [59:24]
A
They have because they probably have to win their division.
- [59:26]
C
Yes.
- [59:27]
B
The way this goes, right? Yes.
- [59:29]
A
So you have this one, too. Texans plus three and a half.
- [59:32]
B
I, I, I like the under better. I played the under because these, these two teams are both top five unders this season.
- [59:39]
A
Well, I have a parlay option for you.
- [59:41]
B
Okay. Okay. Okay. Now I'm Tex.
- [59:43]
A
Texans plus seven and a half. Under 49 and a half.
- [59:47]
B
Yeah. See, I don't want us to parlay.
- [59:52]
Teams any longer. This is a parlay I can endorse. Like, we lost last week. We both love Dallas. We should have gone three and oh, on Thanksgiving. We love the situation. We loved the way it looked. And yet we, we took that and put that with the stupid Eagles. What do we, why did we do that? That was dumb. Like a team. Play the team. I don't want to make two team combinations anymore with our parlays because what we have to do is all these adjusted line things. But if you want to do a Houston where, like it's, it's correlated. The idea of Houston covering that, that spread, the three and the, and, and the total, you know, you push the total up so you're, you're going to finish way under the total. That makes sense to me. Now you're talking that, that's like the, that, that's, I don't know if, if anybody would say it's, it's, it's positive expected value, but at least it makes sense.
- [60:51]
A
Well, we could either do Texans plus seven, half, under 49 and a half, or we could do Texans plus four and a half, under 57 and a half.
- [60:59]
B
I'd rather do the first one of those two by far, by a long shot.
- [61:02]
A
Seven and a half, 49 and a half.
- [61:03]
C
Yes.
- [61:04]
A
All right.
- [61:04]
C
Yes. Yes.
- [61:05]
A
So mark that down. So we have Bears, packers with the Bears, the Texans with the parlay with the Jags with the Eagles, and we need a 15.
- [61:19]
This is where we've gotten in trouble all year. It's always been bad, right? Here, this spot. We always have the four bets and somehow don't have the fifth one.
- [61:31]
B
We can't lay the points with Cleveland. You're not. You don't want to go against Joe Burrow in Buffalo.
- [61:37]
A
I don't want to go against Joe Burrow.
- [61:39]
B
I kind of do, but I understand. I understand your perspective.
- [61:42]
A
I don't want to do that.
- [61:43]
B
You don't want to bet on Geno Smith and the Raiders getting seven and a half? I mean, the Broncos haven't covered that, a number that big on the road all season.
- [61:52]
A
I don't want to do that.
- [61:53]
B
Okay.
- [61:53]
A
That's a.
- [61:54]
B
No Rams cooking against the Cardinals, no back doors open. You don't like that one?
- [62:01]
A
I don't. I don't want to. Do we really going to do the game with your game?
- [62:05]
B
Are we going to do the Jets?
- [62:08]
A
Jets plus three against the Dolphins. The two of cold weather. Just try to ride that one last time. Tyrod Taylor, the resurgent Aaron Glenn.
- [62:20]
B
I kind of love it. We have a lot of jets fans in our lives who hate themselves and hate their team and hate football. But there's a glimmer of something there with this current version of the Jets.
- [62:31]
A
So if you. If you look at the last since week six, jets lose to the Broncos by two, lose to the Panthers by seven. Those are both two winning teams. Beat the Bengals, beat the Browns, lose to the Pats by 13 in a game that was competitive for a hassle. Beaten up by the Ravens and then they beat the Falcons last week.
- [62:58]
Dolphins.
- [63:01]
They got blown out in Week 9 by the Ravens. Beat the Bills, beat the Commanders with your team when you're still missing dudes.
- [63:08]
B
In Madrid and then.
- [63:10]
A
Then barely beat the Saints last week and it's like the Dolphins are back. Are they? They're five and seven. They can run the ball. Hn's been good.
- [63:18]
B
They can run.
- [63:18]
A
They've reinvented themselves as a running defense with some pass rushers.
- [63:24]
All right, fine. Fuck it. Let's see the jets.
- [63:29]
We get two in 40 degree weather. That'll be fun.
- [63:32]
B
See, at least like we'll be texting about Trevor Lawrence and saying bad things about him. But it will be fun to watch Tua in that cold weather because they're saying like it's in the high 30s and it's the feel like we'll be in the low 30s and what Tua is going to feel like is getting the F off the football field.
- [63:51]
A
By the way, he has not been good. It's not like two is the reason they're winning. He. It's not like he's been killing it.
- [64:01]
All right, so our Ringer 107. Today's Ringer 107 brought to you by FanDuel. And we have bears plus six and a half against the Packers. We both think that line's too high. Texans plus seven and a half parlayed with the under 49 and a half in Kansas City. We think the Texans are a live dog. We love their defense. Big, big, big offensive line issues for the Chiefs. 25 degree weather. This is a three point game. Three point game. Lower scoring just feels fine. Jags plus one and a half against the Colts. And Danny Dimes semi broken fibula. Eagles minus two and a half against the Chargers. We like when the Eagles are on the road because then they're not home with their fans booing them and yelling swear words at them. And then last but not least, we can never find a fifth pick we feel great about. So we're going to have to default to two and relatively cold weather, 40 degrees maybe going against the jets plus three at home. The Red Hot jets have won three of their last five. Tyrod Taylor, the number one special teams DBOA.
- [65:09]
B
Give that man a bowl. Give him a game bowl.
- [65:11]
A
This team, all they do is win games. Sort of.
- [65:16]
That's our Ringer 107. And all lines are subject to change on FanDuel's sportsbook. All right, that was fun. We're due for like a 4 and 1 or a 5 and. Oh, maybe it'll be this week. Thanks to the Jets. Before we go, wanted to give you a Thanksgiving story.
- [65:32]
B
I'm here.
- [65:32]
A
Got to talk about food. Did you have a good Thanksgiving, by the way? Did you eat so much?
- [65:35]
B
Thank you. Yes.
- [65:36]
C
Incredible.
- [65:36]
B
Got to see family. Went down to Raleigh, North Carolina. Speaking of great food scenes, Crawford brothers new establishment from the Crawford empire. Excellent. Incredible wagyu steak.
- [65:50]
A
Incredible wagyu.
- [65:52]
B
Wagyu.
- [65:53]
A
So had Thanksgiving. Had like nine people over. Had a bunch of stuff. My mom made her baked beans. Our friend Sissy made her cornbread. I don't even. Cornbread, like casserole type thing. Oh, it just was like old school. I don't know how much butter was in it, but it was a.
- [66:12]
B
It was in a casserole dish.
- [66:14]
A
Yeah, it was a long casserole dish with. With cornbread. It almost tasted like cornbread, but more like mashed potato kind of cornbread. Yeah, it was.
- [66:23]
B
Oh, I'm imagining it.
- [66:24]
A
Yeah, you would have loved it.
- [66:25]
B
Incredible.
- [66:26]
A
My mom's baked beans were out of Control. And also great for the intestines. Over the next couple of days, thanks to her, we had the sweet potato casserole.
- [66:37]
B
Awesome.
- [66:37]
A
Had that. We had all kinds of stuff. Turkey, obviously, cranberry sauce. We had all these sides. We had so many sides that my wife never brought out the mashed potatoes.
- [66:48]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [66:49]
A
And we realized after the dinner that the mashed potatoes never came out because there was so much food. The mashed potatoes just got a dnp. Out of nowhere.
- [66:59]
B
It happened.
- [66:59]
A
They were just in the fridge.
- [67:00]
B
Yeah.
- [67:01]
A
There was creamed spinach. We had all these things. We had so much, much stuff that mashed potatoes never made it. And my wife was, like, really upset about it because she's like, how do you not have mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving? I can't believe that. And I was like, a, nobody noticed. B, we were fine. But she really felt like that was the one thing you had to have. We also had two different versions of stuffing. Forgot to mention that. I was like, no, people don't notice stuffing, not mashed potatoes.
- [67:27]
B
You know how much I adore your wife. She didn't miss the mashed potatoes.
- [67:33]
A
Right. She didn't even know they weren't there.
- [67:35]
B
She feels like they're an elemental part. And yet she also forgot, like, that's. You know, that tells the whole story.
- [67:43]
A
Well, this leads me to my point. Mashed potatoes, overrated.
- [67:48]
Nine people eating Thanksgiving dinner not even realizing that mashed potatoes weren't out there.
- [67:52]
B
Well, I don't know how crucial mashed potatoes are to a Thanksgiving spread. I just go ahead and say that because of all the other ways you can. You just described, like, six side dishes that are each in their own mind blowing. You can have. And by the way, mashed potatoes a couple days after.
- [68:10]
C
Awesome.
- [68:11]
B
Incredible. You can make mashed potatoes with scrambled eggs, and. And. And they have the effect of making the eggs as light and fluffy. If you can get the ratio right, it's in. And then you get some of that. Some of the. The momofuku chili crisp and put it with the mashed potato egg. In fact, I go on dinner time live and ask. Ask Chef Chang to make you mashed potato scrambled eggs and get some of that chili crisp. I'm telling you, this is a. An 11 out of 10. You're gonna love it.
- [68:41]
A
We should. We should have done this as a first take segment. Mashed potatoes need to step up.
- [68:47]
They're getting passed by all the other potatoes. Bnp mashed potatoes haven't been good for years. Yeah. I love mashed potatoes. So you know what I did at about 8 o' clock that night? Yes, I made myself a second whole plate of turkey, but I included the mashed potatoes. I brought them, brought back my friend and they were happy to be there.
- [69:05]
B
Yeah, you could put them on a sandwich that they're very, very, you know, versatile. The mashed potato. You could put them in a lot of different stuff.
- [69:12]
A
Yeah.
- [69:13]
B
I'm proud of you.
- [69:14]
A
That was my Thanksgiving story. All right, we're going to take a break. Thanks, House. We're going to come back with Matt Bellany and then John Cena. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. A crisp, refreshing beer with only 95 calories. And just like some of the best plays we've seen on the court throughout the NBA Cup, Ultra is best served cold. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action. With exclusive prizes and courtside tickets, Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobaltra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelobulture.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Chime. A great team avoids dumb penalties, so get Chime on your side to help avoid dumb fees. With Chime, you can bank fee free, unlock your paycheck early, and with qualifying direct deposits, you can get 1.5% cash back on eligible everyday purchases while building your credit. Start banking smarter today. Sign up for Chime in minutes. Terms and conditions apply. See chime.com for details. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and the secured Chime Visa credit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members FDIC optional service and product may have fees or charges. Details@chime.com feesinfo with a qualifying direct deposit, earn 1.5% cash back on eligible secured Chime Visa credit card purchases on time. Payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. Learn about credit building and more@chime.com this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads the best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from the other ad buys. You could target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. That's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return and ad spend on all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com SimmonsBill Terms and Conditions apply. All right, had to bring in our guy Matt Bellany from Puck and from our podcast the Town, which I love. It's great. And it's been bustling lately because there is a Warner Brothers sale that's been happening in slow motion for months and months and months. Call it a car crash, I gotta say. Bell and E. There's too much football going on. There's too much basketball. There's movies, there's screeners. I'm just not focused on it. And I know you're covering this on your pod, but I wanted to bring you on and just give me the idiot's guide. What's happening? It seems like there's three suitors. We have. Paramount really wants it. Netflix allegedly has the inside whatever, but we'll talk about that. And then Comcast is kind of looming. Those are the three suitors, correct?
- [72:33]
C
Those are. And the process right now is they are in, they're getting bids. And the guy running it, David Zaslav, who runs Warner Brothers Discovery, he is the chair of the committee that's evaluating all of these bids, and he keeps asking them to sweeten their bid. And Paramount has said that we believe we are the easiest path to getting this deal approved. They think they have an in with the Trump people because they just bought Paramount. They settled the lawsuit between Trump and cbs. They have, they did a big deal for the ufc. They're going to be broadcasting the, you know, the fight on the White House lawn. And they are making a bunch of changes at CBS that Trump likes. They're going to Release Rush Hour 4 because Trump wants them to, because the director, Brett Ratner, is doing a documentary about Melania. So they've done a lot of things. You know, Larry Ellison is friends with Trump and has donated in the past. They believe they have the easiest path to get this deal approved and that Netflix has a ton of problems getting this deal approved by the government because in the world of antitrust law, Netflix is the most powerful streaming service. And they would be buying HBO Max, which is, you know, Depending on what metric you use. Third, fourth biggest streaming service. So that potentially has some antitrust problems in this country. That is what Paramount is pushing. And then today we get this letter that Paramount sent to David Zaslav at Warner saying that they believe the process is essentially rigged and that Zaslav is pushing this company towards Netflix because they are going to treat him better, they're going to give him a cushy job and that they are the sort of preferred buyer here.
- [74:26]
A
Wow, that's a lot. And you didn't even talk about Comcast. You didn't talk about Comcast because they're involved too.
- [74:30]
C
Comcast is sort of an also ran here. So far they are in the mix. They are seen as potentially the company that needs this the most. Because they have.
- [74:40]
A
I mean that's my thing. They need it the most.
- [74:42]
C
Yes. And ultimately many of the analysts that are watching this say the company that needs this the most will ultimately get it. I slightly disagree. I think it's a combination of needing it the most and having the most money, which is what the Ellison's had. They have unlimited money because Larry is worth something like two sixty to eighty billion dollars depending on the day. And they ultimately feel like they need it because they only own Paramount and they want to be a scaled competitor to Netflix. And you can't do that with just the Paramount plus subscribers. You put that together with HBO and the Warner Brothers library and you've got a pretty compelling value proposition there. Comcast with Peacock does feel like they need it though.
- [75:30]
A
Yeah, that feels like a one plus one equals three for a whole bunch of different reasons. Because I think. And Peacock's doing a little bit better. They have the Shiv Roy kidnap show.
- [75:39]
C
They do. Everyone loves that.
- [75:41]
A
Big hit apparently.
- [75:42]
C
They got the traders. Yeah, they got NBA now, right?
- [75:47]
A
They got some NBA.
- [75:49]
I feel like right now everything's been kind of quiet from a disruption standpoint because everybody's got their little spots in the pecking order and we're making less TV shows, we're making less movies, we're making less everything. Everybody's being super careful. Amazon could have been potentially a big disruptor, but they keep reorgang.
- [76:10]
The disruptor part that I think would be the most interesting. The Paramount got it because then it's like, all right, we are stepping into the boxing ring now. We have a ton of ip, we have money behind us, we have a football relationship, we have ufc, we have this huge library of all these movies and TV shows and we can actually try to take a couple Punches here at Netflix.
- [76:32]
C
And I wonder that's why many people think that Netflix is going so aggressively after this. It's more of a.
- [76:39]
A
Well, that's going to be my question. Yeah. Is this a defensive player, an offensive play by Netflix? They don't want that pole position right now. They don't want Paramount to potentially unseat that.
- [76:50]
C
Absolutely. And by the way, add in a little bit of a personal element. The head of streaming at Paramount plus is Cindy Holland, who got fired by Ted Sarandos at Netflix. Yes. So they just stole the Duffer Brothers away from Netflix. They did Stranger Things and they wanted to re sign them. And then they went over to Paramount. So there's like.
- [77:07]
A
Was it a steal?
- [77:09]
C
I. Well, not for what they offered them. They offered them movies in theaters to get them to go there. Are the Duffer Brothers, like directors of the kinds of movies you want to see in theaters? Maybe we'll see. They haven't ever directed one of those before.
- [77:24]
A
But I want to see the advanced metrics of getting the people after their transformative, huge show.
- [77:31]
C
Yes.
- [77:31]
A
That is the HBO over the last 30 years.
- [77:33]
C
Yeah. HBO makes that argument all the time that, you know, we get the greatest show out of these people and then if Netflix wants to overpay them, to take them away, God bless, go there and you know, it's like the guys that did Game of Thrones, they got overpaid by Netflix and what did they do? They did that Zero Body problem. What was that show?
- [77:53]
A
Well, they did that one, but they also did the Garfield show, which was really good. I'm still. I still like those guys. But yeah, they're probably not going to top Game of Thrones, the show that.
- [78:05]
Tom from Succession.
- [78:06]
C
Oh, the one that just. That just aired. That show's. I have not seen that yet.
- [78:10]
A
I'm still okay with those guys. It's just like you're paying people's performance. Right.
- [78:15]
C
They paid them Game of Thrones money to do Zero Body Problem, which was not successful.
- [78:21]
A
Yeah.
- [78:23]
Well, it's interesting because from a Netflix standpoint, they've never bought anything. Right. And they've kind of been proud of that. And there's this whole road and we've talked. I went on your podcast and talked about this about media mergers and why do people even do these? We had a whole conversation about this.
- [78:41]
C
Netflix said this at the Bloomberg conference that you were at. The co CEO Greg Peters said there is not a good track record of media mergers.
- [78:51]
A
It's a terrible track record.
- [78:53]
B
It is.
- [78:53]
A
It just is. It's terrible. And you're also assimilating different cultures. You're bringing in executives with their ideas. There's always too many people. You end up doing a lot of layoffs on a lot of cuts. And it's going great for Netflix. So to me, and I haven't talked to anybody from there about why are you going after this? I'm not even sure how much I believe, but it seems totally defensive to me because people are worried about Paramount. But as somebody who's a creator who makes stuff, you kind of almost want Paramount to get it, because now you would have. Now you have two people kind of going at it against each other for content, which would be, I think, great for everybody.
- [79:31]
C
It would take the legacy studios from five down to four. If you merge Paramount and Warner Brothers, they argue that they're going to increase the number of movies and put investment into that. But ultimately, you merge these services. If you merge the studios, it's one fewer buyers in the marketplace. But if you put Netflix over Warner Brothers, you could get Warner Brothers as a theatrical studio, could entirely go away. HBO Max could entirely go away. I mean, it's. It's that kind of a merger where the fundamental playing field of Hollywood would change significantly.
- [80:11]
A
Well, I know you've talked about this, but if Netflix got Warner Brothers, what happens to hbo?
- [80:16]
C
Two scenarios. One is it goes away. They absorb the subscribers, they transition.
- [80:23]
A
I mean, that's idiotic.
- [80:24]
C
You can't do that or make it a tile on H on Netflix, where you go to Netflix and there's a little box that says you love hbo. Click. Everything you'd ever want to watch on hbo. That's one scenario. What Netflix, what Netflix is telling people is that they would operate them separately and that there would be an HBO Max service. There will be a Netflix service. Maybe they have the same backend, maybe they don't, but that the brands and services would remain separate. I don't know if I believe that that's the kind of thing you say if you are trying to win regulatory approval of your big merger. But, you know, the goal of buying this is not to buy HBO Max necessarily. The goal is to suck up all of those Warner Brothers franchise movies. I mean, Netflix would own Batman, they would own Wonder Woman, they would own Minecraft. All of these big franchises would become Netflix movies. And maybe they put some of them in theaters, maybe they don't. Maybe they do it for a couple years just so everyone gets off their back. And Ted Sarandos can be a hero around town for releasing movies. But then maybe they backslide. I mean, that's the goal. Or they take HBO Max and they spin it off and sell it. There's a scenario where they buy this company or the studio and streaming side of the company at Warner, and then they take the studio and sell HBO Max to Comcast. So then they can kind of take what they want and Netflix can take what they want. That's one scenario.
- [81:54]
A
So that's a library IP play. They decide they don't need hbo, they actually sell it off to make some of the money back, and they're basically getting library and cockpocking Paramount.
- [82:04]
C
Yes. I mean, that is very complicated because obviously, what is the value of hbo? It's the brand and it's all the subscribers, but it's mostly the content that is on hbo, which presumably Netflix would want to take for themselves. It's all those Warner's movies. It's, you know, the full library of HBO shows. You could watch the Sopranos anytime you want it on Netflix. Like that is kind of the value. And if they sell HBO Max to another company, what goes with it? Some of the library. All of it. You know, rights to the library. It's very complicated.
- [82:40]
A
So we could get our scenario where they sell it to Apple and we finally have Apple buying HBO, which should have happened 10 years ago. Or you have Comcast buying it and just merging HBO and Peacock and calling it hbo because nobody knows what Peacock is.
- [82:53]
C
Exactly. And. And the key element there is that HBO Max is global and Peacock is only domestic. So Comcast would immediately become a global streaming player. And currently they are not.
- [83:08]
A
And Comcast has some other advantages, right, with the. They. They have the wiring for cable and these things that maybe could help them.
- [83:16]
C
In some other way. Broadband is a declining business, but they also have theme parks.
- [83:20]
A
Not for old people.
- [83:21]
C
Not for old people. But, you know, Elon wants to make everybody a Starlink customer instead of broadband. But, you know, the. The. But remember, Universal has the theme parks, so that would be synergistic with the Warner IP if they were to get it. Now, Warner IP is tied up at Six Flags. If you go to your local Six Flags, there's like a Superman coaster, things like that. But presumably there would be IP plays that Universal could use in the parks and ultimately transition all those heroes over the Universal parks, which is a big business and growing for them.
- [83:55]
A
Well, the scariest thing you said was that HBO would get absorbed into Netflix and basically be a little carousel tile. I think that reminds me of, like, when going back in the early 2000s with wrestling, when WWE bought WCW and basically just assimilated the roster and it just. Everything got lost and it just didn't work. And, you know, I feel like there's an HBO audience, it's a distinct brand, and I just think that's really hard to fold into something else. I hope that's not how this plays out.
- [84:25]
C
Yeah, but there is a lot of overlap in those customers. I mean, most people who have HBO also have Netflix, right?
- [84:33]
A
Yeah, but don't you think the type of content you would expect from HBO that you might like veers a little bit different than the type that's on Netflix?
- [84:41]
C
Oh, of course. I mean, HBO is still the best brand in television because it stands for something. Netflix stands for many different things to many different people. And it's dependent on the algorithm. And it's not. It just means television, which is great for Netflix because it's allowed them to grow to more than 300 million subscribers. But it doesn't mean what HBO means. You and I both give a show a chance on HBO because it's HBO when we would not give that same show a chance if it was on CBS or if it was on even Netflix.
- [85:17]
A
I give every show a chance. I am not a show snob.
- [85:20]
C
But perfect example is the Pit. Did you watch the Pit?
- [85:23]
A
I didn't watch the Pit.
- [85:25]
C
Okay.
- [85:25]
A
But I knew it.
- [85:26]
C
Like, the Pit won the Emmy this year for outstanding Drama Series. The Pit is a fairly conventional, extremely well done, fairly conventional medical doctor show. If that aired on cbs, no way it wins the Emmy. No way it even is nominated for the top Emmy. But because it aired on HBO Max and had the premature of that brand, people saw it differently and it not only was nominated, but won the top Emmy.
- [85:55]
A
Well, I wonder what would have happened with the Beast in Me if it was on HBO instead of Netflix. Because I think Netflix has had some really good stuff this year. And, you know, like, even Adolescence, I thought that Garfield show was excellent. Like, I think if you took the best 10 things that have been on Netflix, they could go toe to toe with any other streamer. It's just they also have a lot of other stuff.
- [86:16]
C
Yeah, look at the volume. I mean, that's what HBO always says, is that they have such a higher hit rate. And I don't necessarily mean hits that are super popular, but hits that are good and that might.
- [86:28]
A
Higher batting average.
- [86:28]
C
Yeah, higher batting average. And Netflix has so much content and so much garbage. They also have some good stuff. And then the definition of good and garbage is different. For every person.
- [86:41]
A
I would argue HBO has some garbage too. They do, they do.
- [86:44]
D
When they miss.
- [86:45]
A
Especially when they have the Discovery documentaries and the, all that, all that stuff that they're putting on there.
- [86:49]
C
Yes, when HBO misses, they really miss.
- [86:52]
A
Like, but to me, HBO is more of like a, they're like a closer. They're like throwing 60 innings, they're coming in to pitch the ninth. They have an incredible K walk ratio and Netflix is trying to be a 250 inning starter. I just think that it's apples and oranges. I don't know how that fits in together. I do think it's interesting for Comcast though, because.
- [87:14]
That'S the one. If I had to rank them for how would this shake up the landscape? Netflix getting it is I think the worst case scenario because then it's just, they become like a monolith. I just don't like it.
- [87:26]
C
The streaming wars are over. I mean, one of the analysts wrote exactly that this week. If Netflix gets Warner Brothers like, it is over. It is like the ultimate flex. The ultimate. I mean, you made the Ben Affleck analysis.
- [87:39]
A
I said that on the phone to you today was Ben Affleck accepted the Batman part after he won the Oscar and Argo and he's just like, fuck it.
- [87:45]
B
Yeah, now what can I do?
- [87:46]
A
Now I'm just going to be Batman. I can do anything.
- [87:49]
C
I cannot do wrong. But it's also interesting that Netflix thinks they need it. If they're real about this, if they are not just going through the motions to raise the price, if they, I.
- [88:01]
A
Don'T think it's real.
- [88:02]
C
They need this, then there's something going on at Netflix that we don't know about. If they think they need this because all signs point to a lot of growth potential. Margins are great. You know, they, they have good shows, good content. Like what's going on there. If they feel like they need the HBO library this badly.
- [88:21]
A
Yeah. I mean, you could look at it the other way and you go, you gotta keep growing. Even during times when you don't think you should keep growing. I saw this happen at ESPN in the 2011, 12, 13 range. They thought they were invincible. They thought they were going to have this lead forever. And within five years it flipped on them and all of a sudden they were scrambling and the subs were going backwards. And it was all because of decisions they didn't make in 11 and 12 and 13 when they really could have consolidated. And then they almost made some misguided ones. Right. I don't think Buying Fox was a good idea by Disney at all? I don't, especially when there was, I think, better stuff coming.
- [88:59]
C
I've been a little more forgiving on that one. I think that it's a little underrated what they did get. And we talk about Disney in a little bit of a different light since they did buy Fox. They would have scale problems and they would perhaps be in more of a Comcast situation if they did not have all of that content from the FX networks. They wouldn't have Avatar for their theatrical slate. They wouldn't have the X Men and all of those Fox Marvel properties that they're going to exploit for the next decade. There's a lot of stuff that they got from Fox content wise, that doesn't. Now, did they probably overpay and did it load them up with debt that may have been made them unable to do other things that they should have done, like buy a video game company or do some of these other things? Maybe that's a better argument. But on a pure content play, they did get a lot of stuff from that.
- [89:50]
A
Or you could have argued they could have invested that money in other places. They could have spent even more on.
- [89:55]
C
Sports and could have bought Electronic Arts. They could have bought a number of other things that would have been potentially additive to their business long term.
- [90:04]
A
Or they could have waited for a Warner Brothers scenario. Yeah, so the Paramount piece of this, if they did get this, if they do pull this hostile takeover, this is where I need you. Because I just don't understand, like hostile takeovers. It seems like it's something out of a season seven succession episode.
- [90:24]
C
Totally.
- [90:27]
A
How often does this work? How legal is it? Is this going to end up in a scenario where just everybody's suing each other for the next five years and nothing happens until 2034?
- [90:37]
C
Well, this is the opening shot of potential litigation. This is a pre litigation letter that was sent today from Paramount to Warner Discovery saying, look, guys, we're onto you. We saw that one of your executives was meeting with regulators in Europe and there was a German newspaper report saying that they were lobbying for them to try to block this deal. If the Ellisons have the inside track in the US Warner Discovery was supposedly going to Europe to try to head it off there. And they're like, that's not fair if you are in bed with Netflix. I mean, Ted Sarandos, the head of Netflix, and David Zaslav at Warners, they were at a UFC match together, not, you know, two months ago. They're friends. If this is being directed to one company over us. We are going to sue you. And that letter was directed at the independent directors of the company, the people on the board who are not hand selected by the investors there. They are the ones that are afraid of getting sued because if they go along with a plan that does not serve the shareholders but serves management, then they are liable if they are sued. Now, I'm not saying that's correct. You could argue that Netflix just put in the most money. They're, they're, they're offering the most money here from all the reporting. And if that's the case, then maybe they're just going to go with the highest bidder. But if there is something sinister going on, there could be litigation. And even if Paramount just thinks that there's something going on, there could be litigation that spurs out of this.
- [92:09]
A
I doubt there's anything sinister going on.
- [92:11]
C
You do?
- [92:13]
A
Yeah. That seems really improbable to me. It seems to me more. Huh.
- [92:18]
C
Do you know David Zaslav?
- [92:20]
A
I know he's been a good foil for you over the years.
- [92:23]
C
He loves the spotlight. He wants to stay at this company so badly. He loves that he gets to have dinner with Charlize Theron and a bunch of people at his house. He wants to stay there. And Netflix, from my reporting and others like, they're saying, yeah, you can stay at Warner Brothers. If he splits this company as he wants to and turns down Paramount and splits it and then sells off the studio separately, he gets to stay in that chair longer. And there are other incentives involved that Paramount is referencing and I'm writing about in my Puck newsletter that suggest he is doing this to keep himself at the company. Not saying that's true, but that's the suggestion at least. And if that's the case, that may not be in the best interest of the shareholders.
- [93:11]
A
So Netflix, the other piece would be the sports that. There's some sports stuff that comes with Warner Brothers too, on top of the ip. And Netflix is obviously taking sports way more seriously and dabbling left and right.
- [93:22]
C
And yeah, they have March Madness. They would have some baseball. They'd have the Savannah bananas that we all love. They do not have NBA. They do not have football. So the Big two are not, not coming with this team.
- [93:36]
A
But Netflix is already getting some football.
- [93:37]
C
They are, yeah.
- [93:39]
A
So the case if you're Netflix is you're blocking Paramount from being like your 1B competitor. Like that you're just going to be fighting for the next 15 years who has endless pockets. And now you're In a spending war with them combined with. You're doing awesome right now, that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't keep trying to grow. I would think those are the two reasons you would do this.
- [94:01]
C
Yeah. Or some problem that we don't know about, that growth is lagging, or they're seeing engagement on their existing content, or they feel like there's a cap on how big they can grow with the current assets they have. I think also I see that one.
- [94:16]
A
I feel like more people have Netflix every year.
- [94:18]
C
I know it keeps going.
- [94:19]
A
You kind of have to have Netflix.
- [94:21]
C
If the problems were really significant, they would have to disclose them to their shareholders. So it's not like there's some ticking time bomb there that they. That they're just not telling us about. But, you know, they're doing this for a reason. And if it's not just purely defensive and it is offensive, it made. There may be some kind of stress point where they say, okay, we've tried to make movies for 10 years now, and we can't get much traction on our movies. Is that because you need to have IP in your library to make movies that people care about? They see the numbers on the movies that they license from other studios. If you go on Netflix most nights, the top movies are from other studios. It's Shrek, it's Minions, it's, you know, the Warner Brothers movies like Superman that they just license over on Netflix. And they're seeing that, and they. So they have the data, and they're probably saying, like, if we owned all that, it would be so much easier and so much more of a growth generator for engagement than having to license them out and get, you know, get. Get raked over the coals every few years on these licensing deals. Maybe that's what they're thinking.
- [95:31]
A
Yeah, I don't. I see your point. I don't know if I agree with it, but the one piece that I think, like, if I was running Netflix would worry me is, like, they have a movie right now called Train Dreams. That's fucking awesome. Like, it really is. It's really, really good. I really liked it, and it's on Netflix, and I watched it on the PGA Screen Rap. I got. I didn't realize it was on Netflix, but it is on Netflix. And it just feels like that movie should be a bigger deal because that's, like, everything you'd want an Oscar contender. It's kind of the. It's a little, like, coda a couple years ago. I don't know who made it. I Have no vested interest in it. I just really liked it and like that, to me, it's like a beer making it.
- [96:14]
C
Yeah.
- [96:14]
A
If you're making movies and Netflix cares about having movies, like that's an example of that movie should be huge on Netflix. And I'm not sure why it isn't.
- [96:21]
C
It's doing okay on Netflix for that kind of movie. But they, that's a movie they bought at Sundance and they paid like 20 million. I believe it was 10 million for that movie at Sundance. I saw it at Toronto, the film festival, loved it. I would love for movies like that to get theaters, but Netflix is not in that business. So it didn't get a theater. I think that movie could have done okay if it had gotten a theatrical release. It's a really beautiful looking movie. That's the other element here is whether Netflix will shut down Warner Brothers as a theatrical studio if they get this deal. They're saying no.
- [96:57]
A
The problem is with movies now. Movie theaters are back in a real way and people like going to the movies. And Netflix is smart. And if they see like audience drifting a little bit this way, they're going to want to keep a piece of that.
- [97:08]
C
Well, I said maybe, maybe, maybe not. I mean, Netflix has been pretty consistent over the last 10 years of trying to kneecap movie theaters at every possible opportunity. Ted has said over and over again, it's not our model. It's not our model. We do not put movies in theaters. We want people to watch movies on Netflix. Now they make concessions for certain filmmakers. They give them a two week release for the knives out movies. They give Greta Gerwig some imax like that's what they do to get these projects. But they would prefer that we all watch their movies on Netflix, not in theaters. And that is very different from the Warner Brothers HBO Max relationship where they would very much like us all to go to the theater first and then on home video if we want to watch it there, fine. So I think how that's going to.
- [98:00]
A
Shift a little bit though. No, but you can't tell me if Netflix had one battle after another and it was in theaters for three weeks and then went right to Netflix. Netflix wouldn't sign up for that. I think that's where we're going. Two weeks is their release, whatever it is.
- [98:14]
C
Yeah. And it would not because it's two weeks. It would not get a national release because the theater chains will not play movies from Netflix if they don't get a proper theatrical release. So one battle after another would have been A Netflix movie movie for most of people who saw it.
- [98:29]
A
Yeah. So that. That would have hurt one battle after another.
- [98:33]
C
What about the next Batman or the one after that?
- [98:36]
A
A lot of these movies, they're. They're advertising themselves as. Come see this on IMAX.
- [98:40]
C
Yeah.
- [98:41]
A
March. March 3rd.
- [98:43]
C
That's the thing is like Netflix is saying, we will honor the theatrical release for these Warner's movies. Maybe now, but maybe not after a couple years. The best thing for Netflix in the world would be is if there was a brand new A list actor playing Batman movie that was only available on Netflix. They would love that because everybody would watch it and it would become a phenomenon and something people talk about. The whole knock on Netflix is that it's just a sea of slop and you don't remember what you actually watched. They can't create franchises out of their content. It's very difficult for them because these franchises we know as brands for the most part are theatrical movie experiences that we got up off our asses, went to the theater, saw there, and remember, and there was marketing everywhere for these movies. The rewatchables. How many Rewatchables have been Netflix originals?
- [99:40]
B
I don't know.
- [99:40]
A
I'd have to look at the list.
- [99:42]
C
Extraction, maybe.
- [99:44]
A
Well, Triple Frontier, we've been saving.
- [99:46]
C
Okay, so you did Triple Frontier and you did Extraction.
- [99:48]
A
No, we haven't done it yet.
- [99:50]
C
Oh, you haven't?
- [99:50]
A
Okay, we're waiting.
- [99:52]
C
But my point is, I know that you do mostly old movies, but the reason why those movies.
- [99:57]
A
We don't really do anything for the last five, six years.
- [99:59]
C
But the reason those movies are Rewatchables are because they're good movies and you love them, but because you remember them and they were moments in the culture that lasted in your head. Like when you said you were doing Weird Science. I remember the billboards and marketing for Weird Science when I was a kid. I remember that experience of going to the theater and seeing that movie. And that's what Netflix is missing out on. And they have a hard time with that. So maybe if they buy Warners, they'll change their model and they'll put movies like that in theaters. My guess is that they had happy.
- [100:34]
A
Gilmore 2 and it felt like everybody and their brother watched that movie in the first three days.
- [100:38]
C
Totally. But you know what? That's a sequel to a theatrical hit.
- [100:44]
A
True. Well, we'll see. J. Kelly will be a good litmus test for this, right? Two big stars.
- [100:49]
C
J. Kelly's a small movie.
- [100:51]
A
I know, but George Clooney and Adam Sandler on the COVID of your Netflix character. That's not nothing.
- [100:57]
B
So we'll see.
- [100:58]
C
They don't look up. Had Leo and Jennifer Lawrence, similar type situation. It was an Oscar movie that had two big stars that they could put on the tile. And that movie did really well for Netflix. But then again, Maestro didn't do great for Netflix and that had Bradley Cooper. So they've had star driven movies.
- [101:18]
A
That was not that movie. It was very well done, but I wouldn't say it was a great hang.
- [101:23]
C
No.
- [101:23]
A
Yeah. The thing with Netflix is they're always going to keep moving and they're not going to stay stationary, which is how all these big media companies, I think, have gotten into trouble over the years. If you look back at anybody, it's always like, we're doing great. Don't change a thing. And that's when you have trouble. Even like Spotify, like, being here the last, you know, last five and a half years, like, they're constantly like, what's next? What's next? What's that? We weren't even doing video three years ago. But they were. They were like, this is coming, we gotta do this.
- [101:52]
C
And I think.
- [101:54]
The biggest analogy of, you know, thinking you can do no wrong, the analogy for Spotify there would be, let's just buy up a bunch of podcast studios and pay a bunch of stars to do podcasts because we're freaking Spotify and we're making so much money we don't know what to do with it. And look at that. The ringer worked. And then what else?
- [102:14]
A
Yeah, but to defend that strategy, which was great for me and the ringer, obviously they were trying to put the footprint in a podcast. Right. And at the time, they mistakenly thought it was defensible. But it was a mistake thinking that celebrities would lead to the same way. It would be with TVs or movies, where you get a celebrity that would drive an audience and what you eventually realize is a good podcast drives an audience.
- [102:38]
C
Yeah. I don't dare you speak. I dare you to speak of the royals that way.
- [102:44]
A
But, you know, and then as everything's shifting to video, I think some of the things they bought made a lot more sense in the 2010s than 2020s.
- [102:52]
C
True. No, they absolutely put a flag down in the podcast space. But my point is.
- [102:58]
A
And we're spending money.
- [103:00]
C
Yeah. My point is they overspent on an area that they were confident enough to go into because of all the success it led to.
- [103:07]
A
The town with Matt Belladon.
- [103:08]
C
It did, absolutely. But then my. But but then the, you know, the Netflix situation right now is, are they doing the same? Are they about to drop 60, $70 billion on a theatrical oriented studio and a streamer that is overlapping with what they already have?
- [103:27]
A
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, they have so much money. I thought the, the fact that it was a mostly cash offer.
- [103:35]
C
Yeah, but 85% cash, we are told, and then the rest in stock.
- [103:39]
A
I was surprised by that because their stock's awesome. Anyway, so when do you think, how does this play out? Before the end of the year or how long does it go?
- [103:45]
C
Warner's wants it to. But keep in mind, this isn't the end. Even if they accept an offer and start negotiating with exclusively with one party, anyone can come in at any time. Like anyone. If there's some super billionaire out there just waiting for this all to play out and then they accept an offer, start negotiating the deal and someone comes in and says, wait a second, I'll give you more money. That's. I'll give you way more money than they're doing. They can, they can go with that offer like down the line. Excuse me.
- [104:15]
A
Neil Mohan just got. Just thrown his hat in the ring out of nowhere with YouTube.
- [104:20]
C
If YouTube did it, I think the government would probably have a word with them.
- [104:26]
The merger of the number one and number two streaming services, probably not going to work.
- [104:31]
A
So Pluto and Tubi. Tubi.
- [104:35]
C
Tubi is Fox. Tubi is Fox. Maybe Tubi buys Pluto.
- [104:41]
But Tubi, Flubo, well, that was a joke on Rocco Roku. Oh, Roku.
- [104:47]
A
Charlie Collier just comes flying in off the top rope and gets watered up.
- [104:51]
C
I've looked at their valuation lately, but I don't think it's quite big enough to justify this kind of expense.
- [104:58]
This is not easy. This is not. Paramount sold for about $8 billion. This thing is going to sell for between 60 and 70 billion probably. It's just an entirely different animal. And there are only a few entities or people that can afford to make that kind of investment.
- [105:15]
A
Maybe it'd be the guy that bought the Dodgers. Guy just has endless money, you know, the Lakers. The Dodgers, yeah, he's just. He's going nuts, I heard.
- [105:23]
C
Yeah, then they could air the games there.
- [105:25]
A
I heard he's tiptoeing around some other LA assets right now too.
- [105:28]
C
Oh, really? Are you breaking some news here?
- [105:32]
A
Just keep an eye on, keep an eye on him. I don't know if he's done. Not hard to follow the breadcrumbs on it. All right, Matt Bellamy. We can listen Slash Watch you on the town Monday, Wednesday, Friday. We can use social clips are out there sometimes Lucas might try to get Lucas a better camera.
- [105:51]
C
I know. Town on video 26. It's coming.
- [105:55]
A
It's coming. Is producer Craig gonna have like his own like producer cam?
- [105:59]
C
We, we should. It really should. I would prefer the camera be on him most of the time and not me, but.
- [106:05]
A
Well, at least you figured out your camera angle. Finally in the BS podcast.
- [106:08]
C
I know it's not like up my nose.
- [106:10]
A
Yeah. Matt Bellarner. Great to see you.
- [106:11]
C
You too.
- [106:12]
A
Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Loom. Packed calendars, nonstop emails. Yeah, work can have you feeling pretty stuck sometimes. Get your team unstuck with Loom by Atlassian. It's AI powered video messaging that lets you quickly record your screen, your camera and your voice to share updates with your team whenever, wherever, even across time zones. Unstuck your process projects and teams with video communication from Loom. Try Loom today. Loom.com that is L O O M dot com. This episode is brought to you by Velveeta. Game day is all about the tailgate spread. Listen, if you're going to have friends over, you absolutely 100% have to have a lot of things for them to eat. Everyone gets hungry. They could say they're not going to eat. But guess what? If you lay out the right kind of spread and you have some good cheesy creamy melty dip with some good crackers, some chips, they're probably gonna eat it. So why not do creamy shells and cheese melty Velveeta box and cheesy jarred quesos? I don't know. Why wouldn't you? They're taking down one taste bud at a time. Do yourself a favor, stock up on Velveeta before kickoff. I can't believe this hasn't happened before. John Cena is here.
- [107:27]
D
So we won't be able to say.
- [107:28]
A
That after this because it's happening, it's happening.
- [107:31]
D
And it'll be like, hey, welcome back or you're never invited here again. One of those two.
- [107:36]
A
Well, I don't know whether you're the 17 time champ or the 14 time champ because I've never once they split the belts, it just became super confused to me. You won the WWEF slash WWE title, the lineage title. That was 14 times.
- [107:51]
D
You might be asking the wrong guy.
- [107:53]
A
But then you won the universal one three times, which I think used to be the old WCW NWA title that moved over.
- [108:00]
D
You might be able to say any stat and I'd be like, yeah, well.
- [108:04]
A
I'm going to count the 14 because I count them for the Boston titles, for the century, because we won six with the Pats, four Red Sox, two Celtics, one Bruins. And then you're 14. That's 27.
- [108:17]
D
If the NFL absorbs the AFL, isn't it still a Super bowl trophy?
- [108:22]
A
So we'll count the other three. That's great.
- [108:25]
D
No, but I don't know, I'm just trying to. I don't know. I don't know if the NBA absorbs the aba. Isn't the NBA trophy still the NBA trophy? I think, yeah, you're right.
- [108:34]
A
I think you're right. I think you've. It's 14. I think the three are over there.
- [108:38]
D
Weakened semantics all day long. I think what's important about championships in our business is it is pretty. It is the business card to show you're at the, the pinnacle of your profession. So regardless of like the origin story of it or whatever, when we deem this leather and gold, this thing that is manufactured like, okay, this is, this is it. You know, it's, it's, it's not as muddy a water as like boxing, but it's, it is, it is the symbol of like, hey, we're placing a pretty sizable investment on you.
- [109:14]
A
Well, and it's the culmination. I mean, you especially, like, you played football late 90s, you do some bodybuilding, you were in that. There's like on YouTube, that discovery show where they did about. What was that? Opw, I don't remember.
- [109:27]
D
Ultimate Pro Wrestling. Yeah, it was here in Orange County.
- [109:29]
A
Yeah. So you're trying to figure out.
- [109:33]
All that stuff, but within five years, you're the champ. But I always feel like when that, when somebody wins the champ the first time, the championship the first time, you can kind of see the disbelief in their face. Even though maybe you know it's gonna happen, but just like, holy shit, this actually happened and I did it and I climbed the mountain and I'm here.
- [109:52]
D
Well.
- [109:55]
That'S an interesting perspective. If you saw. I just was able to perform one last time in the TD Garden in Boston. And on that night I was able to have a match for the Intercontinental Championship.
- [110:07]
A
Right.
- [110:08]
D
Which I won't. For the very first time, the look on my face is like, what's going on? So I don't know if that wears off.
- [110:20]
That's an interesting perspective because every person I've seen when they win it for the first time has some sort of look of surreal appreciation, but it was the same look I had a few weeks ago when I won the Intercontinental Championship for the first time in 20. You know, my 23 years, I've never had a chance to go for it.
- [110:41]
A
Well, it's like, think about it, especially because wrestling's been in everyone's lives from day one, right. So, like, I think about my son.
- [110:49]
D
That's what we're trying for.
- [110:50]
A
Well, my son had the championship belt when he was 6, 7. You know, and doing moves and beating. Beating up a pillow and pinning the pillow and then doing this. And then you think when you're an adult, it's actually happening. But I even like when Hogan won, when he beat the Sheik, he seemed like everybody has the same look in their face, like, ah, I can't believe it. And the crowd's going nuts.
- [111:10]
D
Yeah, it's weird because you do make a good point. Like, it is part of the curated experience of entertainment, yet it happens. I also think there might be, but I don't think this is our business particular. Maybe.
- [111:26]
Nothing truly happens until it does. You know, there's a lot of stuff that can happen between even the bell ringing and the bell ringing again that can change outcomes or whatever. And these are moments hopefully anyone who's involved in WWE's, you know, thought about their entire life, and when they happen, there probably is a wave of surrealism that comes over them, you know?
- [111:51]
A
What were you, like, 27, man, again? There's 2005. How old are you in 2005? Like, 27, 28? You're late 20s at that point.
- [111:59]
D
Yeah, we'd have to.
- [112:00]
A
But you'd only been in the business for like, five years.
- [112:03]
D
Yeah, I don't. So I don't know how much that matters, and I don't know how much I care about that anymore. I think.
- [112:09]
A
I'm just saying it happened fast. You went from, like, trying, oh, it'd be nice if I could get a WWE contract to.
- [112:16]
D
To be in the chamber holding the belt. Yeah, that is a pretty fast at a WrestleMania. Yeah. Yeah. But in. In all fairness, in the class I was brought up in, in the time, you know, life is a. Is a whole lot of luck, and I was very lucky to be brought in. At the time that I was brought in, so many tectonic changes were going on in wwe. I was in a very gifted class.
- [112:39]
A
Yeah, you were.
- [112:40]
D
There were members of my class that were made champion far before me with just about or a little less experience. So it was just a case of good timing, and I think opportunity is a lot about good timing. And it's just a matter of what you do with it.
- [112:57]
A
Yeah, it was such a strange era for wwe. Cause it was like coming off the most scorching hot time in the history of the company.
- [113:04]
D
Right?
- [113:04]
A
You had this run with the Rock and Stone Cold and this whole he defeats wcw.
- [113:10]
D
Yeah, well, it's.
- [113:13]
The whole mindset of attitude and racy programming and competition, and then it's all kind of washed away like it was. We're kind of in the middle of what, another boom in wrestling.
- [113:27]
A
No question.
- [113:27]
D
You know, there's multiple avenues of competition. There's multiple outlets of programming out there. WWE has so much programming out there. And to somebody like me who just doesn't have a lot of time to invest in everything, it's like, man, I don't know how we sustain all this, but to our consumer, they want more. The more we can give them, the better. People are actually gonna sit down and listen to this. Because this hopefully is gonna drop some breadcrumbs on December 13th.
- [113:54]
A
Right?
- [113:54]
D
And they want more. They wanna hear more. If I could sit down with you for five hours, I have a feeling our consumers would hang in there for it. It's just we're in another golden age. I certainly won was when it nationalized and WWF was put on cable television. I think that would put Hogan on the COVID of Sports Illustrated. I think that was won. I think the Attitude era and the height of WCW WWF competition was another one. And I think here we are in yet another golden age. Like a boom.
- [114:26]
A
There was a little mini one when you and Punk were feuding. I remember that was the first year of Grandland. But I felt like the Internet had gotten really good at trying to read between the lines of what was real, what was not real. And it became like this own game. It wasn't as big as the things you mentioned, but something. It's definitely some sort of little mini era.
- [114:43]
D
So, like a moment of relevance is different. Like that unbelievable night that Phil that Punk had was amazing. And when it gets picked up by genuine sports outlets, like, oh, man, he really did something great. Yeah.
- [115:00]
A
The Montreal, it was good for you too.
- [115:02]
D
I think it was good for everyone. The Montreal Screw job is another moment that's like, wow, this got picked up by a lot of folks. And it was a moment, but it was kind of in a lull in the business when I mean, like, boom. I mean, like sustained bull market, like wrestling is on Everybody's mind from 1984 to like 1988, and then from like 1997 to 2001. And now it's been like. I think Covid helped us out a lot. We were the only program that ran during the pandemic.
- [115:36]
A
Yeah, that's a good point.
- [115:37]
D
To give fans entertainment, but it's probably been like 1819-25. It's grown exponentially. The better TV deals, being able to reach more global audience, having a crop of new stars and having the old stars kind of fade and transition. But having the bullpen stacked, I think has helped. And the fact that now it's relatively easy to be a performer on tv. And I'm saying, comparatively speaking, before, there was only one Monday Night Raw with two hours of broadcast time on it. Now there's a bunch of different shows. TNA just announced another TV deal. Like, there's a lot of stuff going on. There's a way for you as a performer to put your business card out there. You know, like, now has been. It's been a great time to be a wrestling fan, and it's been a great time to be a wrestler.
- [116:25]
A
Yeah, it's a good point because, like, when you came up, there was way less shows. WCW got integrated in, and there just wasn't enough time for everybody. Everybody was pretty miserable for the most part.
- [116:36]
D
WWE had birthed SmackDown. So it went from two hours to four hours. But we absorbed ECW and WCW. So they absorbed like, 250 contract talent for four hours of television 22 seasons.
- [116:51]
A
With seemingly no real plan, because you're just kind of adding. It would be like if the NBA just doubled the amount of players in the league, but had the same amount of teams or something.
- [116:58]
D
Yeah. And we went through a name change. Get the F out. So we became wwe. XFL failed for the first time. Stone Cold Steve Austin was fired. The Rock went to Hollywood. Triple H was hurt. The Undertaker was hurt. People don't understand.
- [117:15]
Especially performers now. It's very difficult to tell them. We just did Petco park with 46,000 people in it. We sold seats that didn't have a ring view. You had to watch on a monitor. But you could say you were there.
- [117:27]
A
Right?
- [117:29]
D
Man, I remember doing. It was formerly known as the MCI center in D.C. where Dave Batiste's wife sang the National Anthem. And there were 1200 people in the building. Not 1200 tickets sold. 500 tickets sold. 1200 people.
- [117:42]
A
Wow.
- [117:43]
D
In where I'm essentially gonna have my last match. You know, like, it hasn't always been this prosperous. And it really warms my heart to be able to look around the arenas and see the place Jam packed and the people excited to see the promotion thriving, to see the talent really do well for themselves in a performative aspect and certainly a financial aspect. They're getting paid a whole lot more than I was. But instead of shaking my fist and saying, well, back in the day, we only made this much, I think that's a great way to show I just want to leave the place better than I found it. So now we got a bunch of millionaires because the company's doing well. Like, it's leveled up. It is leveled up in every aspect. Sports families are bringing us in. ESPN's welcomed us into our family. Netflix has welcomed us into their family. Like, we're out there all the time. We used to have to struggle to get, like, a good time slot in Germany and you have to do all these international TV deals, but now we're just on Netflix. So that helps. Global touring, which can keep demand high in the States. Like, it does so much, which can keep the business hot for longer, which we can pay talent better and create more stars. It's all really, really, really good. I'm just happy to be able to, like, see the beginning of this snowball get kicked downhill and see where it goes.
- [119:11]
A
You also seem like you have, like, four different generations of fans at this point. Right. You have, like, people like me, anyone over 50 who probably were there pre. Who remember, like, pre cable, who remember, like, when Killer Khan broke Andre the Giant's ankle and Sabisco turned on Bruno. All that stuff. And then you have the kids that kind of came up during that Hogan era that they got indoctrinated.
- [119:35]
D
That. Then you have the kids attitude era.
- [119:37]
A
Then the kids from Rocks. Don't call it that era. And then basically your era through punk. And those people are now adults.
- [119:45]
D
I know they're bringing.
- [119:46]
A
They're like a kid. Yeah. Or they're bringing. Or they're going after college and they can afford tickets now.
- [119:51]
D
Yeah.
- [119:51]
A
So it's just. It just feels like it's gone on and off.
- [119:55]
D
And I also think that's what's great about the business. Like, you're right. It does touch a lot of hearts and minds. And everyone has their story. Everybody remembers, like, their one moment from that era of like, no, but nothing was better than this.
- [120:09]
A
Right.
- [120:10]
D
Comparatively speaking, I think a lot of people view Saturday Night Live like this. Saturday Night Live was like, yo. No, this cast was the best, and this skit was the best. And this moment was the best. And then someone else would be like, how can you say that when this year was the best. And this cast and remember this skit, they've done so much great work, and they've had so many rosters of stacked comedians that they do have eras and they do have the best of this era. And it is. It is zeitgeist, generational comedy. So if it moves you in a certain way, you could watch some of those skits back with somebody who's never seen them and be like, they might not. It might not resonate. You know what I'm saying? Just like if you watch Hogan, Chic was the first match I ever saw that hooked me. But you show a young mind who watches the way the business is now, you show them that match back, it might not resonate with them. You know what I'm saying? It was just. It was what I needed to see at the time.
- [121:05]
A
Well, they always say with SNL that.
- [121:09]
Whenever you were watching the show when you were 13, that's what you thought your favorite cast was. And wrestling's probably somewhere between 10 and 13. That those. When you were all in. I remember watching with my son, and I knew it was gonna happen because he was like this physical kid, like, very, very expressive. And I was like, he's gonna get hooked. And we took him to the staples for one of the shows, and that was it, man. And you became his guy immediately.
- [121:32]
D
Well, he doesn't watch enough wrestling.
- [121:33]
A
No, you were like the little kid. Catnip.
- [121:37]
D
Thank you so much.
- [121:38]
A
I showed you two pictures that you had with my son when he was, like, six. I was trying to think, like, how many pictures do you think you've taken with little kids? Is it over a million?
- [121:48]
D
I don't know.
- [121:49]
A
I think, like, 22, 23 straight years of you posing with.
- [121:53]
D
I could say as many as I possibly can, because if there was anyone that I couldn't or anyone that I refused, I'd like to think that I had good reason for it, and I don't expect anybody to understand that. But, like, to this point now, and I'm not saying those pictures are over, I hope they continue, because definitely not over as a conduit to bring new minds to the business. But I would like to think from the second I was asked to take the first pitch or to right now, I have taken as many as I possibly can.
- [122:21]
A
Well, and you're always nice, too, because I always ask.
- [122:23]
D
Not always nice. Human being.
- [122:25]
A
No, with the kid. Well, the kids. You understood the game.
- [122:28]
D
Yes.
- [122:28]
A
And how big and the kids are like they're in the headlights, freezing as they're standing Next to me.
- [122:32]
D
I don't think that's understanding the game. I think that's understanding life. Like.
- [122:38]
The conduct of some adults. I'm huge on respect. It's one of my core values. I wear it on my hat.
- [122:46]
Sometimes. Is extremely self serving. And I don't mind that. We're all out to do our own thing. Kids are so honest. Right. They're honest. And you can see when an adult wants to approach you and the kid does not. And you can see when a kid wants to approach you and doesn't have the courage. Or if that kid is courageous and comes up to approach you. Even if it's. Even if their social skills aren't honed. Even if they're disrespectful. I gotta give a tip of the cap to a young person who is confident in self enough to come up and convey like, hey, I'd like to do this. I'd like a picture. And there have been some moments where like parents are shoving their kids at me. Where the child does not want this. It is a vehicle for the parents. And sure, the parent may be thinking, someday you'll wish you took the picture. But that's not someday. We're now.
- [123:35]
B
Yeah.
- [123:36]
D
And that kid does not want any part of it. And I'll politely try to get to the kid's height and explain that like, it's okay if you don't want to do this. It's fine in those situations. I want to try to take seconds I don't have.
- [123:48]
I have barely a few seconds to speak with adults who come at any sort of relationship agenda from a selfish perspective. That's all.
- [123:59]
A
I was in the best situation when my kids were little. My daughter's two years older than my son. We would go backstage to some of the WD stuff and she would be the handler trying to get photos for him. Nobody could say no to her. Wasn't a parent. And the wrestlers were always like, this is great. Yeah, yeah, I'll do it. What's interesting about your career is. I gotta ask. Nobody retires in professional wrestling or boxing.
- [124:22]
D
Nobody but me.
- [124:24]
A
Nobody. So why are you different? Why is this actually happening? Because why should I believe you're not gonna be back in three years from now?
- [124:30]
D
You don't have to believe anything you don't want to.
- [124:36]
What I've.
- [124:39]
Been able to do over 23 years is turn a lot of non believers around.
- [124:45]
A
Yeah.
- [124:45]
D
And that is by my actions. I don't expect anyone to believe that, like, hey, I'm retiring. Oh, no. The Precedent hasn't been set. The precedent for wrestling retirement is like a wrestling wedding. Like something's gonna go wrong in the wedding. No one ever retires.
- [125:00]
A
That's a good point. Has there ever been a successful wrestling wedding?
- [125:03]
D
Never. Never. So.
- [125:06]
I understand the skepticism. And you'll know I'm serious when I never come back.
- [125:11]
A
Why do you think the Rock kept coming back? Other than money? Because he left a bunch of times and became a pretty big movie star and didn't need to come back.
- [125:20]
D
So it's difficult there. Cause you're asking me to think for somebody else.
- [125:25]
I know that. I want to do it forever. I can speak from my perspective. This is something I've heard a lot this past year. Man, you're going out on your own terms. That's bullshit. I want to do it forever. When you've been there, live. Like, to anyone out there who doesn't understand what WWE is or what, just go live. Like, did you just look at the camera? That was impressive. Sure. Indeed. I'm just trying to.
- [125:49]
A
I didn't realize you were going to performer on me.
- [125:51]
D
But I want to let everybody out there knowing, you know, like, when you step in that building live, it's just a different energy. Yeah. And I never want to let that go. But my body hurts. I'm a step slower. I promised myself and the fan base like when I started before I won that first championship. When I'm a step slower, I'm out.
- [126:13]
A
And yet some people are saying you're having some of your best matches ever this year.
- [126:17]
D
Yeah, but it's all I have left. That's what people don't understand. And I want to go out at a level that is still passable and in some twinkles, admirable.
- [126:32]
And not have to rely on luck. You know, I got one date left. I have given my heart and soul to this year. It has taken a lot to just do 35 dates. Whereas before I do 220 in my sleep. Like, it is time to move on.
- [126:48]
A
And 220 in a year, easy. So the 80s, it was like 3:30.
- [126:53]
D
That's the thing. It's trickled down.
- [126:54]
A
Then it trickled down. Now it's like normal now.
- [126:57]
D
I saw a stuff stat. I think La Knight has had the most WWE matches this year in 70.
- [127:02]
B
Wow.
- [127:03]
D
And I see that. And again, it makes me smile because like now talent can wrestle longer.
- [127:08]
A
Well, in the 80s, they're just hopping in cars and just driving in the next place and whistling obsessed.
- [127:12]
D
When it got national, it was different. Like they would they would do morning matinee in Toronto, and then they would do the Garden. So, like, they would. There were, like, three units running. It was. It was a true live event juggernaut. Not that it isn't anymore, but it's more stable. Do a ton of events as much as you can, you know, and that's. I think the concept of tko, is to try to pick your spots, try to make every event, you know, out of control, special, as big as you can, and look at the globe instead of just the U.S. so you said.
- [127:44]
A
Your body's obviously different after man, after an entire century of wrestling.
- [127:49]
D
Yeah, it's a half century, a quarter century.
- [127:51]
A
What were the worst injuries? I remember you tore your pack.
- [127:54]
D
Tore my pack. Tore both triceps.
- [127:57]
A
Both triceps, yeah.
- [127:58]
D
Yeah. Broke my neck. Yeah.
- [128:02]
A
That was probably the most dangerous one, right?
- [128:04]
D
The most dangerous one, because if it's not treated, like, in case my tricep tears, that's serious. But if left to its own devices, eventually some of it will grab on somewhere or it'll just, like, stay torn and I'll have a dent in my arm. Same with the pec. Like, maybe it won't attach, but, you know, I can still move, like, 75% of my body. When a disc ruptures in your neck and it gets pressed against all the energy and the cords and stuff that tell you to move, it can shut that stuff down. So that was weird because it was like, outpatient. I remember getting Fusion and going to Smackdown.
- [128:43]
A
You got the Fusion?
- [128:43]
D
Yeah, it was early on. Dr. Maroon did fusion on me in 2007 or 2008. But I remember going under on Tuesday morning and then going to Smackdown in Pittsburgh. Like, walking in to say hello to everybody, and it was like, what the. Didn't you just get neck surgery? But it was like, well, plus, like.
- [128:59]
A
The history of wrestling, some that sidelined some of the biggest stars we had, like, stone cold true.
- [129:05]
D
But then again, like, I've all. You know, I started playing football at 15, so I started late, which is good, but I was always in the pit, in the trenches, so to speak. So you have eight years of full contact football.
- [129:16]
A
Yeah.
- [129:16]
D
Could be putting a bar on the back of my neck with heavyweight for an extended period of time. Plus all the, you know, combative action that's involved in sports entertainment. It's. I think it's just overall wear well.
- [129:28]
A
And also, as you're. As you're. As the 2000s are going along, we move into the 2010s. Wrestling is just becoming crazier. And crazier with the, with the bumps.
- [129:38]
D
So, so that's all, that's all the bar keeps raising. That's all. Performative choice. Yeah. If you see the stuff that I do, it's not, it's as crazy as I can get.
- [129:48]
A
Yeah.
- [129:49]
D
But it's.
- [129:50]
A
You're not doing the Shane McMahon jumping 25ft off of a steel cage.
- [129:53]
D
And again, those are performers choices.
- [129:58]
I tend to lean more on why are we fighting? What is the story? What is the reason? I want to go in and yell for one guy and boo the other guy. And I think.
- [130:11]
My hat's off to the athleticism that some of our performers possess.
- [130:17]
But you know, like the average NFL career is only so long because you have to be the best athlete.
- [130:23]
A
Yeah. If you're a tight end, if you're Gronk, that's not gonna be a 20 year career.
- [130:28]
D
So again.
- [130:31]
The more you ask of yourselves, and I'm not saying for people not to try hard, but there's a lot of different ways to tell stories in wrestling.
- [130:38]
A
Did you worry as this was happening that the bar was getting too crazy for what the bumps were?
- [130:44]
D
No. And again, I don't mind performers choosing to take their time to do what they want with it. I totally respect that. I've always had a good.
- [130:56]
Understanding of what I can do and what I can offer, and I've only tried to go outside of that maybe once or twice. And that's when I'm like, oh my God, I, I almost killed myself. So it's.
- [131:07]
A
Do you remember what was it?
- [131:09]
D
I tried to take a, like, I don't flip over well. And I try to take a suplex where I flipped over. I didn't practice it. I just wanted to do the best I could for the person I was with. It was like, yeah, don't worry about it. I'll figure it out. I want to be okay for you. Almost broke my neck. Like, it's just stuff that.
- [131:27]
Thinking that I was smarter than the business.
- [131:30]
A
Right.
- [131:31]
D
You know, and those, those were mistakes, but I'm, I'm okay.
- [131:35]
A
So you seem like out of all the other people who became superstars, almost like the, the most self aware of what you could, couldn't do, how far you should push your character. I mean, you didn't, well, you didn't become a quote unquote heel until this year. I mean, you did it earlier in your career.
- [131:51]
D
But that's not, that's not my choice. It's not my choice to go out there and, and play A good guy or a bad guy? That's above me. That's a level above me.
- [132:02]
A
Well, it's a little bit your choice. You were one of the biggest stars in the. That they had. You have some say in it, don't you?
- [132:08]
D
I don't view it as my choice. I don't want the stress of that. I've never done this. Like, I don't.
- [132:17]
You tell me, am I a good guy or a bad guy? Tell me who you want me to face. How long have we been working together? And that's what I want to get into the sand. This is the story I'd like to tell. These are the details I'd like. I never pick opponents, never curated my stuff. Hey, we want you to turn heel. Or like, hey, the crowd's booing. You guys should turn me heel. No, it's not my sandbox. I think in my perspective, a pro takes the tools that you're. Or takes the tool, the subject matter that you've given, and tries to make it something special.
- [132:52]
A
So you trust the people who are paid to make these decisions, that they're gonna make the right decision.
- [132:58]
D
Whether I really.
- [132:59]
A
That was Vince forever.
- [133:00]
D
The answer, that's yes. But whether I trust them or not, it's their choice to make. So they say, be a good guy. Okay, no problem. In my mind, this is what I think a good guy is, and this is how I think a good guy would act. Is this okay? Yeah, sure. Like, that's the difference. I do see a lot of performers spend their time, invest their time to try to curate their own destiny. And again, not wrong. Wrestling is a chicken soup business. There's no wrong way to do it. I just always wanted to know what you need.
- [133:38]
The outcome you want. The piece in the chessboard. I can play. And can I do it my way? Like, once we get all those things together, can I do it my way? Is that fine?
- [133:49]
A
Well, there's one other piece that you're really good at. And it's funny because sports talk is a little like this, Taylor. Being on TV or being in crews. I've talked about this a lot on my podcast. When you're with somebody every day, when you're with them, once in a while, when you're on a show that has five people on it, you have to sell the other people, and they sell you, and it's a quid pro quo, right? And if other people that you're with are doing well, too, that's good for you. And if they're selling you, that's also good for you. And a lot of people don't understand that. Wrestling, I think, is the ultimate example of that because.
- [134:20]
D
Talk more about that. What do you mean?
- [134:22]
A
Well, to have a good match, both people have to buy in. You have to sell the person you're with, they have to sell you. It can't just be a one person thing. It's got to be both of you. And I think you've been really good over the years at always having good match. There's been other people like this. Ric Flair was always famously, always had good matches, was always good at the other person, always came off well with the rest of Ric Flair. I think that was the case for you.
- [134:49]
D
So again, it depends on the match, Right? And I've been in all sorts of stories when you are told, hey, I'm the good guy, you're the bad guy, you have four minutes on television. And the purpose of our four minute commercial is to make Jon look unstoppable.
- [135:10]
So the way you can do the best for me, for you and for the match is to bump like a madman and lose.
- [135:21]
A
Yeah.
- [135:23]
D
A flip scenario of this is the famous Suplex City match with Brock Lesnar at SummerSlam after he had defeated the Undertaker. How does one follow Breaking the Streak, the most mythical thing in sports entertainment that a lot of us thought would never end. And this beast breaks it.
- [135:43]
A
Yeah.
- [135:44]
D
I'm up next. How do we follow that?
- [135:47]
A
I think I went to that match.
- [135:48]
D
It was in la, so you probably did.
- [135:50]
A
I did. I thought you were gonna die.
- [135:54]
D
Exactly. So how do we make this guy.
- [135:58]
Who won this huge thing? Definitely not a fluke. If I went out there and had a 5050 performance with Brock Lesnar. Brock Lesnar is capable of making anyone look fantastic, by the way. But that didn't help Brock, that didn't help the story, and it didn't help all of us.
- [136:14]
A
I can't say that night was a good time watching you getting annihilated.
- [136:17]
D
And that's another thing. When you sit there live, it is a one episode thing, but it's not.
- [136:24]
A
It's the vibe. It gets weird. Cause people are like, oh my God, is he gonna really get hurt here? What's happening?
- [136:30]
D
Knowing there's a lot of things here and I love talking about this, I could talk about it all day. What is the purpose of the match?
- [136:40]
A
Well, it's always audience reaction, right?
- [136:42]
D
No, what is? Depends. The purpose of that match was to get Brock Lesnar over strong on our most cherished strong and believable intellectual property. If he can beat the Undertaker. He's a beast. If he just destroys John Cena now, he's a monster. I want you uncomfortable and looking over to your shoulder, friend, being like, who the F is going to beat this guy? And along comes somebody like Roman Reigns, finally he can do it. You know, like. And those moments you leverage that SummerSlam, that single serving packet.
- [137:20]
In a microcosm. This is why I said you got a lot of stuff there in a microcosm. And this is the first time I'm reflecting on this year. Cause it's a narrative that's going. But we got one left, so who cares?
- [137:31]
The match Cody and I had at WrestleMania, which was awesome. Some people would say different, but it was not the end of our story. It was the end of Act 1. Knowing that you got Cody, you gotta turn bad. Eventually this is gonna happen. We need you to peek at SummerSlam. That's the end. Performers get in their head. Just like they get you had said, performers wanna show the best they can, thinking that's best for the match. They also get in their head that, like, WrestleMania is the end. I gotta go out for WrestleMania and tear the house down. I'm not saying you don't.
- [138:09]
A
It's like the NFL playoffs for wrestling, basically.
- [138:12]
D
If it's the first chapter of your book, it's not. You can't end the book in chapter one. So we had a very. By design, we had a very methodical match with a very simple end. And we thought, you know, we thought we would have some parts and players, those disappeared. It didn't matter because it was the end of Act 1. So we had like Act 2 and then Act 3. And then if you compare what we did in April to what we did in August, which is, yeah, what am I?
- [138:40]
A
One of the matches was us. Maybe it was the summer. I got confused. The SummerSlam one was us because that.
- [138:45]
D
Was the end of our story. And that's the ride we're taking fans on. But it's as difficult to conceptualize as. You're not coming back. No, everybody comes back. You had this match at WrestleMania that left me. I wanted more. Yeah, no kidding. You're gonna get it.
- [139:04]
A
Yeah.
- [139:05]
D
Because although we know that WrestleMania is the end of our season, when it came to Cody and I, that was just the beginning for us and certainly just the beginning for me. After them choosing to say, well, now you're a bad guy. Okay, I'm a bad guy. In February. I got to the middle of April to figure this out. What's the best way I can do it and what's the best way I can do it and integrate it and then.
- [139:28]
Look at my morality in August, you know what I'm saying? That's a short time to accomplish all that. But you have to be.
- [139:34]
A
It's like writing a TV season. Like if you're doing Breaking Bad or something.
- [139:38]
D
Commitment.
- [139:39]
B
Yeah.
- [139:40]
D
You gotta get suplexed 19 times and lose sometimes.
- [139:43]
B
Yeah.
- [139:44]
D
To know what's on the other side. And the Cody thing had to do with Cody and I, Me and Brock. I'm getting killed for Roman. I'm hoping, like, man, keep going. Hope you get over. If it's not you. Brock's gonna keep on this path and hopefully somebody you know. But like, it's. I never ask how can I look good when I sit down with an opponent. I love anecdotes. The first time I ever worked with AJ Styles, he is the nicest human being in sports entertainment. And I always have some sort of. I can find some energy of, like, you said this about me in an interview once. Or like, man, I don't like the way you work or whatever. AJ's such a good guy. And I sat down, I'm like, man, this is gonna be okay. Why are we fighting? It's like, what do you mean, why are we fighting? I wanna be the champ. That's not good enough.
- [140:40]
Take a second to yourself, figure out why we're fighting. I went on my bus and scoured the web to try to find out anything this guy's ever said. Just anything. A sentence never speaks bad about anybody.
- [140:50]
A
Yeah.
- [140:51]
D
So then I came back to him and like, literally after two and a half hours, he was finally like, okay, this is. This is AJ, this isn't Alan. But maybe AJ's thinking that if you were never around, I would be where you're at and I'd be so much better. Because when in that ring, I am better. I'm like, we got it. And we built our story, culminating with even the match at the Royal Rumble with I, AJ am a better in ring performer. You are charismatic, but hella lucky. You put these two in a ring together and I will run circles around you every time. And that's where audiences are like, your son would be like, hell, no, that's my guy. Anybody that watched TNA would be like, our guy's finally getting a shot. This dude's awesome. Wait till he can do his stuff. And now you're divided, and now you're interested, and that's an issue that you can run with, but you have to sit and ask, why are we fighting?
- [141:54]
A
Well, you just tapped into the most important word in the history of wrestling. Jealousy. It's been like 80% of the rivalries.
- [142:03]
D
It's. Cause it's something that people understand.
- [142:05]
A
Yeah.
- [142:06]
D
Those stories have to come from a place. Redemption, jealousy, anger.
- [142:13]
A
Why you and not me? Whatever it is, it should have been me is great. It always works.
- [142:18]
D
They stole this from me.
- [142:19]
A
They did that with Hogan all through the 80s. It was. Paul Orndorff was the first one. It was great. And then Macho man was the best.
- [142:25]
D
Of all of them. It's an emotion we all have. We all can understand. And I think that's why it's like, I want to be the champion. I never rest at that. That's never good enough. There has to be something more. And when you have that, it's great. Like, anytime you have on the mic, if you ever get lost, you know where you are, because I'm supposed to feel jealous of you. Anytime in a match, you know how to act.
- [142:49]
If you are jealous or if you finally are cresting that hill and now you feel confident. How do you act? How do you move? What do you think the audience will believe? The answers to these questions aren't perfectly placed, but, man, they're easier to come by. So instead of being like, we'll do stunt after stunt after stunt, you can build this thing.
- [143:09]
Just going back to aj, where he completely, in the beginning of those matches, out wrestled the hell out of him, and I was out of my place. We told the story of, I'm gonna be better than you, and then you are, and my world is crumbling. And then finally, I start doing a little of my stuff. It's more like throwing ham bones. But then I start hitting him with my best stuff, and he kicks out, and I'm like, who the. Who is this kid? Why won't he go down?
- [143:35]
B
Yeah.
- [143:36]
D
And maybe he's right, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe my world is crumbling. Those are just by saying, I think this is why we're fighting. You can dig into so much. And I know this. A lot of performers don't do that. Because I'll always. In a postmortem sense, if I watch matches, I'll watch and be like, okay, you did this and this. Why were you guys fighting? What do you mean?
- [144:05]
We were on the main event. We went out there for a match.
- [144:07]
A
Yeah.
- [144:08]
D
Okay, cool.
- [144:10]
B
All right.
- [144:11]
D
And again, I'm not saying that someone who doesn't ask or answer that question cannot be successful.
- [144:18]
But if you know the story think of sports.
- [144:23]
Some games a lot of people watch and some games they just don't. There's games on all the time, games of everything on all the time. But if there's a rivalry or if there's meaning, like college sports, Chiefs, Cowboys.
- [144:36]
A
57 million people on Thanksgiving, man, an important game for both teams. Two famous teams, two good quarterbacks, and.
- [144:44]
D
There'S a million stories you can tell.
- [144:46]
A
But there's an ego piece to this though, which it sounds like you were always thinking about what was good for the business, the storyline, how could you think big picture months and years in advance? And then there were other people who especially those stories are more famous in the 70s and 80s of like, I'm at this spot, how do I keep this? How do I. And this was a big topic after Hogan died about that. He, you know, the big criticism with him at least in the 80s and 90s, was that he didn't pay it forward, that he was always trying to hold onto what he had and not so again.
- [145:22]
D
I think there's a lot there and I always, I always try to look at life of like, control the control, but what can I do, right?
- [145:33]
Wrestling was a territorial gangster business and it was cutthroat. So if you did have something going, you wanted to keep it. It has its origins from carnival performing, which is even more cutthroat. It then gets nationalized just because. It gets nationalized, just because, just because we end segregation, you can't change. It takes a long time to change people's mind. So just because it gets nationalized, you don't take the gangster out of the guy. You know, like they still have to operate like that.
- [146:08]
Any story I heard about.
- [146:14]
Non meritocracy.
- [146:17]
I don't like it, I don't like it. And there'll be people to criticize my career or my actions or whatever. They have the right to feel how they want.
- [146:27]
I believe best person, best idea wins. And I believe sports entertainment is the perfect meritocracy because you know the sound of noise and promoters, whether they like you or they don't, there are these age old tales. Well, I didn't get the shock as a promoter didn't like me, promoter didn't like me, hated me, everybody hated me. But they heard the noise, so they got to give me at least one more chance. And in that one more chance, you got to get the noise again. And if you get the noise again, you get another chance and then you get another chance and then eventually the promotion, the office, they like you. Because not only with all these chances have you got the noise every time. But in my case, I want to be a reliable employee. I want to be somebody you can invest in and bet on. I want to carry myself well as an advocate for the company I love. My job is to fake fight. I am doing the thing that I, as a six year old with the paper belt, I'm doing it. I don't want this to go away. And there'll come a time when someone does it way better than me that. Okay, great, no problem. It's your turn.
- [147:37]
So again, I guess I enjoy hearing that because you're not wrong.
- [147:43]
Stamping your territory and being the top draw.
- [147:49]
You want to see who somebody really is, give them power. You want to see who somebody really is, take it away.
- [147:56]
I don't blame anybody for trying to keep where they're at, but I've always operated the way I'm gonna keep where I'm at is put us out there, put a mic in my hand, put us out there and let the bell ring. And I'll always get the noise. And I'll always be as prepared and ready and like on my game as anyone you put me in there with, no matter what. And when it's time for me to go, I'll go.
- [148:22]
A
The power thing's funny. Cab. I was just talking to my old agent, James Babydoll Dixon about this, who reps all these TV people.
- [148:29]
D
Talk to me about the nickname.
- [148:30]
A
He's great. Baby Doll. Well, he calls everyone Baby Doll, so he just became Baby Doll.
- [148:33]
D
Right on.
- [148:34]
A
Well, we were talking about somebody who, as they ascended, kind of became more of an untrustworthy asshole that we know. And I was like, I just didn't, didn't see it in the early stages. I didn't realize they were going to be like that. And he was like, that's the thing. Everybody's got it inside them, but you don't know what's going to happen until they get some power. When they get power, something shifts.
- [149:00]
D
I don't know though.
- [149:02]
A
I just thought it was an interesting take. I was like, oh, so I'll give you. Not everybody has it in there, but sometimes if it's in there and then all of a sudden you get opportunity and power, it can change.
- [149:12]
D
Well, I mean, I'll give you another take. You're right.
- [149:16]
It'S not fast as a person wins, right? It's opinion. If objective, it's floor gymnastics.
- [149:23]
So it's kind of like if you're cool or not.
- [149:29]
I don't Know how many folks came from where they came from to wrestling, like, being cool, right? So it might be a little imposter syndrome. It might be a little, like, lack of self worth.
- [149:44]
A lot of performers, including myself, want to be out there, because out there, you're. It feels like home. You're comfortable, you're accepted, but you kind of struggle with who you really are. And if people see your flaws or imperfections, then maybe it's all gone.
- [150:02]
It's weird.
- [150:05]
I've told the WWE I'll never be able to thank them, especially the audience, for making me the human being I am today. And it's just time under tension. I think if my career were shorter, maybe my decisions or my perspective in life would be different. But I've had to go through so much or I've gotten to go through so much. I've been told, you're a good guy. You own the sandbox, no problem. I get out there and the noise is opposite of the good guy. I've had that for a long time. So I still have to traverse the obstacle of how would a good guy do this? And in doing that, man, humiliated, embarrassed, bullied, picked on. But all part of the act, because when you're in the arena, it's part of the act. Business is business. You know, people have grabbed the microphone and attacked me personally. We blur the lines a lot. Gosh, fans of my bald spot, they convinced me to get a hair transplant. I'm so glad. I'm so grateful. But, like.
- [151:07]
You'Re out there and it's very fragile, and I've seen so many gifted people not make it because it's so very fragile. You need to have so many things in line to have a sustained, good career. And a lot of that is having control of your mental health. And I think a lot of the.
- [151:32]
A
And having a really thick skin. I think especially you came in the 21st century during the Internet era, as wrestling was completely changing into this different. All the message boards, all the cheat sheet, everybody had an opinion. Then social media comes with Twitter and Instagram, and stuff becomes meaner and meaner, and people become faster to jump on or off somebody. And you're just navigating this the whole time.
- [151:56]
D
I've also tried to be patient. I think you can just let things play out. You don't always have to answer every question. You can leave people wanting more.
- [152:07]
You can wait. And.
- [152:11]
Again, I was getting bullied live before message board. So I had a really good. I had already been through it.
- [152:20]
A
I think it's Funny, you come in right around when LeBron comes in, right? LeBron's still playing, you're still wrestling stuff that in the 1970s, to think that somebody would still be at the top of their game in their early 40s in basketball and their late 40s in wrestling seemed pretty inconceivable. And you both had the ups and downs. He had a bunch of. His big thing was the decision when he became basically a heel in real life. For six, seven, eight months, he's getting booed in stadiums, just feeling the wrath of the Internet and just how people are, which you felt too. And you just kind of, at some point.
- [152:58]
It almost like it gave LeBron more focus and more inner strength. And it kind of helped him achieve all the stuff he achieved in the second half of his career. Like he wouldn't be denied, you know. So in some ways you could say it was like the best thing that could happen to him. But it's weird to say that.
- [153:12]
D
Well, it's weird to say because it is what happened.
- [153:17]
In my case, I guess.
- [153:20]
I always try to look for a good explanation.
- [153:26]
In our business, when you hear negative noise, the knee jerk reaction is to jump on the audience, to turn heel, so to speak, to be a bad guy. But that's not what I was told. The person who can make those decisions and the creative body making those choices saying, like, we're not doing that.
- [153:46]
A
Well, that was Vince.
- [153:48]
D
And even now, in some cases.
- [153:52]
Let'S take the year of retirement. I think a lot of people were wondering what would happen if John Cena turned heel. Here I am. If I turned heel. And then when I did, it left a taste in people's mouth that they didn't like it and like, they wanted other stuff. I wanted a music change, I wanted a uniform change. I wanted him to act like this.
- [154:18]
A
Well, we'd been talking about it for 15 years. Never thought it was gonna happen.
- [154:22]
D
I got 11 months to do this, 36 TV appearances. It takes five years to get a guy over. Regardless if you turn him. It's gonna take a year or two on television for it really to sink in. Especially if you really wanna get into it and then be able to flip and then get a guy to get a nice. Or get a performer to get a nice flip on the other side when it's time to turn again.
- [154:51]
I don't have the time to tell the right story, but that's besides the point. Cause I'm told we're going with this story. We sure are. I'm going to do the best I can, and to be able to hear the audience be surprised and then kind of like.
- [155:08]
This is not what I wanted. It's not that you may or may not have wanted me to turn bad. It's that a lot of people started to realize. Like, when I came out into a dome, I was like, 36 dates. That's it. It's hard to conceptualize. The first time I put a counter on after Vegas, and it went down to, like, right down to 24. It was like, whoa. And then we started. Then the site started to pick up, like, 15 left, 12 left, 10 left.
- [155:40]
A
So you're glad you structured it that way. Mentally. It sounds like that you had it all for this whole year.
- [155:47]
D
Like, this is how it's gonna play out by design. Because I knew it had never been done. So how do I continuously send messaging of like, you're never gonna believe it. You're never gonna get it. I have to reinforce the fact that this is it.
- [156:00]
A
I still don't believe it, which is fine.
- [156:02]
D
Which is great. And hopefully 10 years from now, we.
- [156:05]
A
Can sit here again like, he really did it.
- [156:06]
D
Are you coming back yet?
- [156:07]
A
2038. I'm like, oh, man.
- [156:09]
D
Yeah. Yeah, he wasn't quite so.
- [156:13]
I've been in a high level of performing for 23 years.
- [156:17]
I have minimized foolishness in my life. I've been compensated fairly. I have my health. Also.
- [156:27]
A
You have a side gig. You can be the star in movies.
- [156:30]
D
I appreciate you saying that. That's also beyond my control. I don't know when the phone rings next, but.
- [156:37]
In the height of all that, in doing 220 days a year for, I don't know, 10, 12 years straight.
- [156:43]
The most important thing in my life was wwe. And it's not anymore. And that's okay to say. I'm still obsessed. I'm still passionate about. I'm not obsessed. I was obsessed, yeah. Very passionate about wrestling. On my days off, on my free time, without any compensation, I will go anywhere I can. If my partner and I say, hey, you have an off day, what would you like to do? I'd like to go watch younger talent perform and critique them. That's what I enjoy doing on my time off. So I'll always be around it. But, man, like, how much more do I want? You know what? There's always another crowd to perform in front of. But, like.
- [157:26]
Gosh, maybe if my actions set an example for this class, hopefully my actions about political behavior over the course of 23 years have set an example. I can tell you, in my perspective alone, I don't know if this is truth, but from my perspective, there is a lot less political activity now, 20, 25, than when I started in 2002. So it ain't. I can't say it's done, but I can say it's greatly minimized. And if that's because of me, great. If it's not, great, because that's what I wanted in the first place. So maybe as the first wrestler who actually retires, I set a precedent for young people to be like, man, I want to strive to give it, like, two decades and then go out, like, go out the biggest way I can. It's also a different business model for athletes. Do you keep holding on for one more and then one more and then one more? Or take a look within yourself and be like, man, I can give you guys the best year I can. Can we figure out what that is and figure out what the compensation is for that?
- [158:32]
A
We just saw this happen in the NBA. Chris Paul, who decided to have one last year in the Clippers, and he hung on too long. You know, it was 41, and then they waved him. Today, as we're talking about this, it shouldn't ended like that, but.
- [158:45]
D
But it should have, because that's what you want. Like, I don't. I do not blame any performer for wanting to continue to get out there. It is. It's beautiful, man, I'm gonna. I'm gonna miss it so much, but I've seen it, and I don't want to be it. And now with one left, man, if I have to pump myself full of adrenaline to make sure that I give all I got, I have enough left in the tank for one match.
- [159:10]
A
Well, so I was at the first Netflix Raw the night before. The fire's here. You came out. The two notable things from that was Hogan came out and got really booed. And almost like.
- [159:24]
I think some famous wrestling people would have kind of felt the crowd energy and turned it. It was almost like he didn't know what to do. So that was one notable thing. And the other one was when you came out and it was clear, it was this purposeful angle that everybody had put a lot of thought into, and nobody tipped me off on it. But as I was watching it and I was with my son, and I was like, oh, this is smart. They're gonna. I see what they're doing. They're making this like the year of Cena. He's going to make one last run at trying to win the title. And I see what they're doing here and I think it went better than anyone could have expected. The heel piece was the thing. It seems like you have small regrets about it.
- [160:07]
D
Not at all.
- [160:07]
A
No.
- [160:08]
D
No. I.
- [160:08]
A
You don't think. Do you think it went perfectly or like what would you have changed if you did it over again?
- [160:13]
D
What is perfect? Here's what I do know. Perfect is never achievable. I think that's a sucker's chase when I look back on it. Could I have given any more than I did? Not a bit. I over prepared. I tried to go to every corner of my emotional well being.
- [160:35]
And the cool thing is when the audience began to turn.
- [160:40]
We turned. Yeah. So like they helped it out. And that dynamic was a little bit ahead of schedule for let's say Cody and I. But it made for a great showing for the summer. So you, you choose, you.
- [160:58]
Make again anecdotes. Make new day a bunch of heels. They're aspirational pastors, but they're bad guys. The crowd booed them and then they loved them. Nobody wanted to change him good. But hey, it's time to change him good. You know, let's try Jon like this. I know we have limited time, but let's do something really big. Okay. It didn't work. Didn't mean I didn't get my all. You know, I often talk about a main event on WrestleMania I had with the Miz a long time ago where the Rock came down to interfere. Everyone knew Rocky was coming. Match between Miz and I was lackluster as far as audience involvement because they were waiting obviously for Dwayne Johnson. Who wouldn't want to be just looking towards the entrance. Miz got knocked out, won the championship with a concussion. Like we beat the hell out of each other. We couldn't give anymore.
- [161:50]
But I didn't. Looking back, I didn't understand all the things. And maybe we should have done something different because we should have just got Rock out there earlier. But that piece was Also, again, it's WrestleMania. I think we had to blow it off. That piece was a building block for a year later in Miami because the next day on TV, we challenged each other to the Miami WrestleMania. So it was like leveraging WrestleMania for another WrestleMania. I just wasn't used to it. I didn't get the perspective. And it worked. It ended up being one of the most successful events in company history. So when you say like oh man, you seem a little bit like this. I don't. It happened. It was great and it helped like, it paid off. And this whole year, I think, has been special in that regard.
- [162:35]
People have bought in. And I'm so glad because after this, I don't have another chance. If they didn't buy in, I would.
- [162:41]
A
Just go fake an injury in July. It's like, no, no.
- [162:45]
D
I would do the rest of my dates and.
- [162:48]
Then I could look back and be like, man, I held on too long. But in these shows, like, it's now become. You want to be on these shows. We have tons of people watching. We have sold out arenas and stadiums. It's a chance for you to show your business.
- [163:02]
A
Well, you made one mistake.
- [163:04]
D
Please, I'm open to criticism.
- [163:07]
A
Why wasn't the last match in Boston?
- [163:10]
D
That again, that's way beyond my control. I'm not a. I don't book the live event calendar.
- [163:15]
A
Well. My guess is that if it was.
- [163:17]
D
Up to me, every match would be in Tampa.
- [163:19]
A
But that. My guess is like, that's. They knew the Boston.
- [163:22]
D
The mistake is I didn't have 36 matches in Tampa.
- [163:25]
A
I know, but you're like the Boston home team, though.
- [163:27]
D
Trust me, it was great to be able to go back there one last time.
- [163:30]
A
My guess is they thought that could be its own thing and your last match could be its own thing. And they didn't need to combine those two things.
- [163:36]
D
You never know. I don't know if the Garden was available possible. So you never know. Like, that's a thing of like, man, it would be perfect if. Perfect for you. Like, you don't know the routing, you don't know live event hurdles that they have to go through.
- [163:51]
A
It was an emotional event.
- [163:52]
D
It was great. The last Boston match and it was like the last. Then you can get a bunch of last of us. The last smackdown in Chicago, where I started, the last time in td, the last time in nsg, my last raw, my last premium live event or pay per view in San Diego. And then of course, the last match. And.
- [164:13]
In trying to create the atmosphere for the last match, folks in creative were like, hey, we want to do like this tribute thing. And.
- [164:23]
I never book myself, but I called Triple H and I said, I have an idea. You'll know how to do this. Because I don't know how to write television, but I think if we do a tribute show, one of two things are going to happen. It's either going to be too much or too little, which means it's not going to be good. Why don't we take Saturday night's main event? Everyone knows it's John Cena's last match. The video packages, you want to trickle in there throughout the night, no problem. Then we go to the match. Have the match. That's the night. But beforehand on a night, I know people are going to be tuning in. We're going to have a sold out. It's going to be definitely an item, a ticket you want to have in your hand. And that last piece of relevant energy that I can get an audience member to tune into, show the future of your business. Have top name WWE Superstars, CM Punk, Charlotte Flair. You put it together how you want. Have them have non canon exhibition matches with the future of the business. Bring kids up from nxt, get them in a building with real noise, with real energy. Let them get under the bright lights. Maybe, just maybe, like, I want to be here, you know what I'm saying? And they get to wrestle people with experience and wisdom. And in non canon, non exhibition matches where nothing's on the line, it's just a chance to see. It's a chance to hear the music of your favorite Superstars against someone you have no idea. And he said, that's a great idea and they're gonna do it. I have no clue what the plan is, but I know it's. That's how I want to go out, right?
- [166:04]
I want the people who are tuning in for me to be like, yeah, but you see that other kid I'm watching next Monday because he's awesome or she's awesome, you know, like, what a better way to tip the cap and try to.
- [166:20]
Keep the thing going, you know?
- [166:22]
A
What would you tell 2003 John Cena if you could give him, go on a time machine, give him two tips of advice. What would it be?
- [166:32]
D
There's going to be this thing called Bitcoin that the Winklevosses are going to debut in 2012. I'd give him a sports almanac. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No.
- [166:44]
It'S weird. I get asked that question a lot.
- [166:47]
A
You get asked that question a lot?
- [166:48]
D
Yeah.
- [166:49]
A
Oh, man, I feel like a jerk.
- [166:51]
D
You want to ask another question?
- [166:54]
A
Well, give me one thing you would have told yourself.
- [166:55]
D
I don't know if that works. Like, I don't know. First of all, to see your generational self is a weird paradox and who knows? But like.
- [167:07]
To turn someone off about, like, even if it's like, hey man, just keep it up, it's gonna be crazy. What the fuck does that mean? Am I gonna go crazy?
- [167:19]
I just. Things have happened the way they've happened and that's how they needed to happen.
- [167:25]
A
I'm going to use my new John Cena mentality to just look forward and not think about how. I asked you a question that a lot of people have asked you. I'm going to try to spin it into a positive and just ask another question.
- [167:36]
D
Yeah, go for it. You got one.
- [167:39]
A
I thought that was a really good one. Who was your biggest mentor when you were coming up, like, looking back into that? 030405. Did you have anybody that became like a Mr. Miyagi?
- [167:49]
D
No. Vince, without a doubt.
- [167:51]
A
Interesting. Let's talk about that, because he was on the docket, as you know, I did the documentary that you were interviewed for, and we had a whole segment about the ruthless aggression. Like, that was kind of your big moment. You were like a rational, confidence young guy. John Cena, like, fuck it, I'll do it. I'm in there. But so how was Vince at that point when he took you under your wing? Like, what'd you learn? How did he help you?
- [168:16]
D
So he was just.
- [168:20]
Really kind with his time. He. He would explain things. Here is a person making a lot of, if not all the choices. Yeah, I. I.
- [168:33]
Am always in search for a good explanation.
- [168:37]
And he would always give one. And in giving the good explanation, you would get a nugget. And because Vince had such fluency in every avenue of the business, a lot of performers are worried about the stunts. I think one of the benefits of doing 220 shows a year is pace. And if you obsess over the physical aspect of the business, you might get exhausted, you might burn out.
- [169:06]
I love the technical aspects. But then I also became obsessed with the theatrical aspect. And then I also became obsessed, especially when, before I won my first championship, on the way to getting relevance and the way of shifting from the obscure Saturday night program to smackdown, I became interested in the business and not my business. Like, how can I take from this place to make as much as I can the business? How do we get more people in the arena? And.
- [169:41]
The only person it seemed like that had a good explanation for a lot of those questions was Vince. And that allowed just a wealth of information to be dumped on me.
- [169:57]
I had full faith and trust in him. I think he had full faith and trust in me.
- [170:01]
A
He also had a really good track record of, I think this person can carry us for a little while. And he was usually right.
- [170:09]
D
He wasn't afraid to try, which is another thing I learned from him. Do not be afraid to swing big and do not be afraid to fail. Be accountable for yourself.
- [170:19]
A
I'm glad you said that. That's one of the biggest things I've learned in life. I think people are too afraid to fail.
- [170:25]
D
It sucks. Failure sucks, man.
- [170:27]
A
Get back up.
- [170:28]
D
I know for the next thing, but it's like, it's uncomfortable.
- [170:33]
A
Yeah.
- [170:33]
D
And failing is bad. Taking accountability for failure, that's even a heavier weight. But gosh, man, I just.
- [170:42]
A
What was your biggest failure like when you look back, like the one where.
- [170:46]
D
You were like blowing the completely disintegrating, ruthless aggression and it almost got me fired.
- [170:54]
So here I am, a young whippersnapper debuting in Chicago because the Undertaker's sick. I get to challenge Kurt Angle to a match on smackdown in front of a sold out house at the formerly known as Rosemont Horizon. The Olympic gold medalist says, what makes you think you can stand out here with anybody else? What do you have that I don't? Ruthless aggression. I slap him in the face.
- [171:15]
A
That was great.
- [171:16]
D
That's aggressive. Yeah. And then the match we went on to have is pretty ruthless. But then like he won, but with like a roll up pinfall. And then the aggressive, ruthless young kid goes like, man, you only got me by that much. And then the next thing they did was like a backstage taping with the Undertaker where the ruthless, aggressive kid is so starry eyed. If the Undertaker has given him advice and like, hey, you did a great job. Shakes the Undertaker's hand. That is neither ruthless nor aggressive. So this is what I mean by like being ready for opportunity. That gimmick, those two words, that personality. I could either lean into being aggressive and ruthless and we all know what those things are. We all have an idea in our head of what is ruthless and what is aggression. Or I could do a 180 and be like the most passive aggressive. Passive. I was neither.
- [172:14]
A
You were in no man's land.
- [172:15]
D
I was neither. And I didn't have the technical ability of my peers. And they gave me this beautiful moment on a silver platter. No one told me it was an attitude. No one told me, but I didn't take advantage of it. That was my biggest failure. Because a year later they're like, hey, we're gonna let you go. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, okay, I get it. I got it. I could see the cheers against Kurt Angle, then a little bit with Chris Jericho, and then I'm turning heel on Billy Kidman on Saturday night. Velocity. And nobody cares.
- [172:50]
I blew it. I blew it. And was lucky enough to get a second chance.
- [172:54]
A
Well, you had we talked about in the documentary. You're rapping on the bus.
- [172:58]
D
Yeah.
- [172:59]
A
And Stephanie hears it, and then all of a sudden, that was it. But the Rock had a very similar kind of. There are always these moments where it's going one way and one little small thing happens and it flips.
- [173:11]
D
Yeah. And in Rock's case, he was like, man, just. You're gonna put me with these folks. Just give me the mic. And in my case, I got lucky. Somebody heard me on the mic and was like, would you be okay doing that on tv? Let me weigh my options. You're gonna fire me or do this on tv? Looks like I'm your rapping kid from West Newberry.
- [173:35]
Yeah, sure. Great. I'll do it. But the cool thing was I essentially failed fast.
- [173:43]
And I was held accountable for my failures. Kid, obviously, this isn't working, you know? Yes, you're correct. All right. You know, like, that's. I get it. And it made me like, all right, I'm going in. And I just had a conversation with a young talent the other day who is trying to find themselves. And they. They expressed like, oh, man, I think I have my why down to this. I said, okay, but what is. What does that mean? Like, I went from wearing boots and tights and carrying my laptop to playing rollercoaster tycoon to like, you're the rap guy. Fine, I'm the rap guy. I'm gonna buy my gear in the hood. I'm gonna get faded up at the barbershop. I'm gonna tell everybody I'm throwing this jersey out tonight. I'm gonna wear diamonds and then switch the diamond for a steel chain. I'm gonna wear five fingered rings. I'm gonna wrestle in sneakers. I'm gonna wrestle in jorts. I'm gonna wrestle in yellow corduroy and blue sky sheepskin suits. I'm not gonna look like everybody else. I'm gonna make my own music. I'm gonna freestyle everyone in the parking lot so they know it's not rigged and no one's writing my stuff. I'm gonna come out with my own album. We're gonna make music videos. I'm gonna do concerts. I'm gonna work clubs in between Smackdown and Raw and pay per views like.
- [175:03]
It was it. It was me. You went for it wholeheartedly.
- [175:07]
A
And three years later, I'm in a theater with Adam Carolla watching you in the Marines.
- [175:12]
D
Yeah, man, I feel like I still owe you money for that one.
- [175:14]
A
No, we enjoyed it.
- [175:17]
What?
- [175:19]
D
That's. That's maybe that's also certainly a failure. I mean, I got run out of the movie business, so that's. That's a big failure too, for some people. You'll never work in this town again.
- [175:28]
A
I've enjoyed those action movies. What do you think?
- [175:31]
D
You were the one.
- [175:31]
A
Well, what do you think was your, your career year? What do you think was your best year? Because I felt like as a writer, I have three years of my head where I was like, I really had it going that year. I really feel good about how that year went, the stuff I did. And I have fond memories of it. Do you have a year like that?
- [175:48]
D
Gosh, I like this one.
- [175:51]
A
25.
- [175:52]
D
I like this one.
- [175:53]
A
Really?
- [175:54]
D
Yeah. Yeah.
- [175:55]
A
I mean, was certainly probably the least taxing physically. Because you had 36 matches.
- [176:01]
D
Yeah, 36 matches versus 220. It's weird. Like, if you talk to a performer who's done that schedule, you don't have time to do anything else. It's kind of like being in season, but like, the preseason's so tough for NFL, right? The helmet feels heavy and like the first few hits hurt, but then when you get in it, it's like, yeah, we got another game. Don't worry about it. We got another game. We got another game. You get that callus and your timing gets great. And it's like.
- [176:30]
You get in a zone, you get in a flow state. It's really tough to get in the flow state with like 36.
- [176:36]
A
Sounds like almost like playing golf. Like you're better off playing golf five times a week than one.
- [176:40]
D
Yeah. And then maybe like once a month, right? Where I'm gonna give you five minutes to hit a bucket of balls before you go out there. Oh, sorry. You have three minutes to hit a bucket of balls before you go out there.
- [176:52]
A
Wait, so give me your second best year.
- [176:54]
D
I don't know, man.
- [176:56]
A
That to be one year where you look back, you're like, oh, man, we were humming that year.
- [176:59]
D
So I think the year in Miami that culminated at WrestleMania with the Rock, I thought that that was a pretty. And the reason I choose the two things.
- [177:12]
Is because a year long build in 2011 or whatever it was in WWE is unheard of. Is this possible? And it worked. A wrestling retirement is unheard of. Is this possible? And skeptics will be skeptics, but with one left, December 13th, is it. I can be like, it worked. Was everyone.
- [177:41]
Critically happy? They're gonna weigh in on everything. I'll always be criticized. You'll always have your opinion of like, I would love to this. They booked it wrong. He did this wrong. I know a lot of folks showed up, and I know TKO is doing well, and I know our fan base is still interested. The fact that we were able to do a tournament to get to the last person. So now the shows I'm not even on.
- [178:02]
A
Who's it? Gunther and La Knight are left.
- [178:04]
D
Yeah. And the shows that I'm not even on have gravity and, like, oh, man. I want to kind of see what goes on. What a cool idea of, like, well, Jon isn't going to be there, but the presence and the idea of this. And then, of course, it leans into, like, my core value of meritocracy and Same thing on the 13th, man. We'll give you a chance. See what you can do. Please. I'm begging any young performer that gets out there, steal the show. I would love them to just talk about you and not me. That means I have done my job.
- [178:34]
A
They did the performer thing again.
- [178:35]
D
I want to send the message to whoever's ever on the thing. That's great. Yeah.
- [178:39]
A
Gunther has to be in top five this century of guys that I'm sure are a great wrestler, but the next day, you're in the shower just like, fuck. I mean, those chest slaps.
- [178:50]
D
You took me to a weird place. I don't know.
- [178:51]
A
Talk about that. No, just like, the chest slap. I just can't imagine the next day. Those seem like they hurt. I would say the Lesnar Suplexes would be the number one. The. The Gunther chest slaps. I don't know what else is in the pantheon for you. For, like, the next day, you're just like, ugh, I'm feeling it.
- [179:12]
D
I think for me, it's performers who.
- [179:16]
Lean on.
- [179:19]
Like, really, like, beating the hell out of. Out of you. There is a certain magic to what we do.
- [179:25]
A
Yeah. And so you're talking, like, the hard clothesline slash just.
- [179:31]
D
I would borderline it to say, like.
- [179:34]
Unsafe striking, unsafe maneuvers, where, I don't know, the feeling that the realism trumps the ability to. What should be first and foremost is, we're gonna give the best we can and we're gonna walk out of there.
- [179:49]
A
And nobody gets hurt.
- [179:51]
D
And there is a certain magic to our business, and there are certain performers. Brock is one where his stuff is physical, but he's one of the smoothest. Like, he's a really great performer. Randy Orton is another one. He's, like, great performer, and his stuff looks great and his timing is beautiful. Seth Rollins is another one. CM Punk is another one. The List of folks who understand the magic. And again, I don't fault anyone for their style. It's their lane to choose.
- [180:24]
But I do know, for me, personally speaking, my math would be a whole lot less if every night I. I beat the tar out of my opponent and I expected them to beat the tar out of me. You know, you just. You. You ride down that injury avenue a lot more frequent than you. You would if you. If you understood, like, the. The magic of our business.
- [180:43]
A
Nick Khan wanted your Mount Rushmore. So this isn't my question.
- [180:47]
D
Yeah, sure, sure. Mount Rushmore is. What is it?
- [180:50]
A
He wanted your four. He said you would actually give it to us.
- [180:52]
D
No, not President Washington and Lincoln give us. Is that Mount Rushmore?
- [180:56]
A
No, you gotta give us the floor. That's not Mount Rushmore wrestling Mount Rushmore.
- [181:01]
D
You're saying that's not Mount Rushmore?
- [181:03]
A
We need a wrestling Mount Rushmore from you.
- [181:05]
D
That's mine. That's what I'm doing. Come on, Lincoln, wrestle the bear.
- [181:08]
A
You can either give me Washington wrestled the British. The four best you ever saw or the four best you ever wrestled? No, you got to do it. He demanded. He's in control of this December 13th show. You got to do right by him.
- [181:21]
D
I would like to think that the relationship I have with Nick Khan, he does right by me, and I do right by him.
- [181:26]
A
That's fair. That's fair. That's fair. So Rushmore's off.
- [181:28]
D
I gave you it. I gave you Mount Rushmore. Can you ask another question?
- [181:33]
A
Can you give me the three?
- [181:37]
So you don't want to do three best wrestlers you ever wrestled against?
- [181:39]
D
That's a great question.
- [181:41]
A
That's basically Rushmore.
- [181:42]
D
No, it's not.
- [181:43]
B
Okay.
- [181:44]
D
You talked about Mount Rushmore. I gave you Mount Rushmore. What is your real question? What do you want to know?
- [181:48]
A
Three best.
- [181:49]
D
The three best ones.
- [181:50]
A
So you've three best people you ever wrestled.
- [181:53]
D
The three best people I ever wrestled.
- [181:54]
A
Where you were, like, marveling at how good they were.
- [181:56]
D
Seth Rollins.
- [182:00]
A
Sean Michaels. Seth Rollins, Shawn Michaels.
- [182:02]
D
Seth Rollins.
- [182:05]
And it is very tough to narrow down to a third.
- [182:10]
I've had incredible chemistry with people.
- [182:16]
It's tough.
- [182:17]
A
Well, so let's concentrate on those two, because Michaels is usually somebody's answer for this question. Right. So what was it about him that was just different than all these other guys?
- [182:28]
D
He.
- [182:32]
Can make this a champion.
- [182:37]
He would look at that and be like, okay, need to bump around for that book. Then I'm gonna super kick the book and then beautifully fall on top of it at the same time, he just.
- [182:50]
His performance. And Seth is of the same vein. His performance is like, Randy falls into this category. But then again, there's guys who have had crazy chemistry with AJ Styles, CM Punk, Kevin Owens, Dwayne Edge.
- [183:07]
A
Now you're just listening guys.
- [183:08]
D
But I've had the.
- [183:09]
A
It was interesting, though, 23 years.
- [183:11]
D
I think those are the two because.
- [183:16]
Of their. They can just work with anyone, anyone. And I've been lucky enough that I was anyone a few nights.
- [183:26]
A
Who was the one that jumped the highest from where they started, where years later, you were like, wow.
- [183:36]
You really did it.
- [183:37]
D
Cody. Cody Rhodes.
- [183:38]
A
Cody. Okay, explain that one.
- [183:41]
D
He asked for his release from the company and left.
- [183:44]
A
But did you feel like he was a good wrestler when he left?
- [183:47]
D
I felt like he had. Man, the first time I heard that kid speak was at the hall of Fame in Chicago when him and his brother inducted his dad. And I'm like, front row going, I'm out of a job. Or Los Angeles. It was like, wherever he. I'm like, this kid is coming for me. I better go back and practice. And, you know, generational talent, so big shoes to fill. And, gosh, he did the best he could with what he had, but he realized that start up here and then you watch the stock go down and then essentially the company dissolves of, like, I gotta go. And then like, man, what is going on with this guy? And back he comes and he's at a. He's our guy now. I don't think there's any arc better than that. Like, to be kicked out or to be. To be out of the club. And then not only earn your way back in, but earn your way back in and prove that you can compete and perform every day at the top level. Not a top level like the top level.
- [184:47]
A
And it seems like he learned some stuff from you that he talks about. I think you were an important person for him, man.
- [184:56]
D
Whatever anyone has between their two ears, it's just a matter of your application of it. You know.
- [185:05]
If that's the case. I'm grateful for the moments I've shared with Cody. I'm grateful for the moments I still share and will share. But he's doing it, and I think that's important. Like, he's doing it regardless of where he got it from. Like I said, I got tons of information from my mentor. I think that the best way to honor that information and honor that wisdom is to put rubber to road and make something happen.
- [185:27]
A
Undertaker.
- [185:27]
D
Yeah.
- [185:28]
A
Was he that much of a leader behind the scenes?
- [185:31]
D
Yes.
- [185:31]
A
Was he the number one.
- [185:37]
D
The most respected personality, and you could even feel.
- [185:43]
A
That in 03 as you're coming up, you're like, oh, that guy.
- [185:46]
D
Don't fuck with him until about, like, recently. And even still, I think his name still, I don't know, because I'm not a new performer. I know what I know.
- [185:58]
But in looking at.
- [186:02]
I'm so grateful to have experienced phases of the business, and I'm so happy for where it is now.
- [186:14]
The locker room essentially.
- [186:18]
Doesn'T need a spokesperson because all of our people are professionals. You know, it's not like pirates or herding cats anymore or, like, we don't need an internal police force because we're all professionals. But that being said, a lot of the fraternity, a lot of the bonds, which led to great programming. Yeah, that stuff has dissolved. So it's weird. You want to look back and romanticize how things were, but how things were was like, man, you better get a $200 advance on tonight's show because you're not going to get paid. So that's just how they were. And I had fun and great times under being welcomed into that fraternal business. And he was literally. He was very instrumental in that. I had my first drink with the Undertaker.
- [187:13]
A
What do you mean? Like, first drink ever?
- [187:14]
D
Oh, Yeah. I was 26.
- [187:17]
A
That was your first drink?
- [187:18]
D
He was like, I sat down. I'm like, hey. He's like, oomp. Like, hey. I don't. Oh.
- [187:26]
You know what? I'm gonna go for it.
- [187:28]
A
Yeah.
- [187:28]
D
Because I have this wise figure who is very stoic, doesn't say a lot.
- [187:37]
Welcome me in. Like, that is okay. I understand why I don't do this.
- [187:43]
But I also understand that I want to do this.
- [187:48]
I'm. Okay. I'm going to give this a try. And I'm so glad I did, because in that one conversation, I still.
- [187:56]
I see us at that bar.
- [188:00]
Some of the lessons he gave still stick with me. Yeah.
- [188:06]
The two things I vividly remember from that conversation. Always take care of your crew. He never let any of the boys pay. Never say goodbye. I got so hammered when I was like, man, when is it time to go? It's like, go whenever you want. Just don't ever say goodbye. And I was.
- [188:25]
A
Don't ever say goodbye. That's such good advice.
- [188:28]
D
And I was so happy.
- [188:29]
A
The undertaker's an Irish goodbye guy.
- [188:33]
D
I guess so. But that was a maybe he's Irish. That was a tip he bestowed on me.
- [188:39]
A
It's a good one.
- [188:40]
D
I was so out of place. I turned to him and I was like, man, thanks so much. And then so many people that I'd never talked to, I said goodbye to everybody. But then it just put me right back in the seat and I stayed there a little bit longer. But I really thought it was important to know that like, he was like, always, take care of your crew.
- [188:58]
A
Take care of your crew, Irish. Goodbye.
- [189:00]
D
When it's time to go, it's time to go. So when it's time to go, it's time to go.
- [189:07]
We got one left, you know, it's time to go. So. But he's just. He was tremendously respected. And I think because of that he was. He certainly had a great relationship with Vince and could act as a conduit. Anyone who can bridge that gap, and that's another thing. It's not, there's no gap anymore. There's no office and the boys, it's like everybody's in it together, everyone's accessible. You can go up to Paul. It's not like Vince wasn't accessible. But Vince also did everything. So now Vince's brain is split in a bunch of different places. There's Paul, there's Nick, there's Chris Leggentle, there's Matt Altman, there's anybody in talent relations. You can get answers through all these folks. Justin Scalise with Live Events, Derek Kassema with Merch, and Ethan with Fanatics. Like, I can get a good explanation without spending or asking the man to spend minutes he don't have. You know, so it's not. It's very little. It's us versus them. It's all we. You know, it's like, I like it like that. I like it like that. Cause I was never a big us versus them guy.
- [190:12]
A
Did you ever think that WWE could survive and thrive without Vince? After seeing, like you just mentioned all the things that he did?
- [190:20]
D
So of all the things he did and of all the things he taught me, one piece that was very important is that no one is irreplaceable.
- [190:32]
And that's the truth. The one thing that needs to stand firm is the consumer's belief in what we do. And Vince has so much knowledge.
- [190:44]
I think what's happened is unfortunate because you have this individual with so much depth of field who can still offer things.
- [190:54]
And we no longer can pull from that well, but it doesn't mean we don't have able bodied folks who can't put on creative programming. So.
- [191:07]
I never wanted Vince to go because I love him and I know how Much. He loves the business, but he taught me, like, we're all gonna go, all of us. And he taught me that. Not only through saying, through his actions. I was there the day he fired Stone Cold. He missed the date. Gotta go. His biggest attraction.
- [191:28]
I gotta let people know this isn't okay.
- [191:32]
So things happen. We gotta let people know this isn't okay. It's time for you to go. Everybody goes, man. Everybody goes. So. So. Because of his words. Yeah.
- [191:46]
Yeah.
- [191:47]
A
So you're either going to be wrestling Gunther or La Knight. Or La Knight.
- [191:52]
D
Yeah. That's a great topic shift. Look at you. Look at that. Hey. Yeah. You got it. You got it.
- [191:58]
A
I've had you for a long period of time and.
- [192:00]
D
And now it's time. God, it's too.
- [192:02]
A
I know, I know. Been here a while.
- [192:06]
And then that's going to be it. And you're going to actually retire.
- [192:08]
D
Yes.
- [192:10]
A
And you have little brother coming out, which I'm supposed to promote because Dave Burnett is my friend and he's one of the producers. I don't know when he wanted to mention that.
- [192:17]
D
Whenever it comesdy me and Eric Andre.
- [192:19]
A
Yeah, it's coming out like next year at some point.
- [192:20]
D
Yeah, you'll see me at WWE events. I'm going to be involved as long as they will have me until I am need to. Until I need to be replaced. But I will look like this so.
- [192:31]
A
You can be involved as like a personality source.
- [192:35]
D
I will make sure you get to your stage facilitator and I will go.
- [192:38]
A
Up and announce her. Nah, you don't really like announcing.
- [192:42]
D
No, I would love to do it. I think the announcing crew we have now. I'm such a big fan of Stu Bennett, Wade Barrett. I think he is carving out an excellent legacy for himself. I know Michael Cole's getting a little long in the tooth. He's probably wanting to move on. I would love to sit at the table. I think we have. Man, I love listening to Big E call stuff.
- [193:01]
A
This would be a good angle for you where you're jealous of Michael Cole this whole time. You got to sit here as we all took these bumps.
- [193:07]
D
Michael Cole.
- [193:08]
A
I knew I was better than you this whole time.
- [193:10]
D
Yeah.
- [193:10]
A
Listening to you.
- [193:11]
D
That's why I think I'm out. You reel me back in. You have to have the time to regularly commit to be an announcer. I know Pat McAfee struggled with that. He split himself in a bunch of different directions. And gosh, I don't blame anybody for going. Until you can't go.
- [193:26]
A
Right.
- [193:27]
D
But like he didn't have it in the tank. Like, he can't be everywhere at once.
- [193:32]
A
So, yeah, he's. I actually thought he was doing a good job as the announcer, but at some point, you can have just too many jobs in too many places.
- [193:40]
D
So that was a. You were like, hey, man, 36 dates. Must have been easy. This year I did too many jobs. The original.
- [193:47]
A
Because you're doing a movie, Ash, and you're also doing this.
- [193:50]
D
I was in Budapest, going from, like, flying from Budapest, like, all night on set in Budapest, fly to Indy, do Indy, fly back, land, drop my stuff off, go film. And like, doing that until post Wrestlemania. Like, back and forth to Morocco and Budapest and all these crazy places that weren't easy commutes. And it's just. You think you can do it because you're like, ah, I'll sleep. I'll sleep on the plane. Or whatever. You don't. It doesn't happen. Then you get upside down and, like, super fatigued. But, like, I threaded the needle just enough. The plan originally was to do, like a full year. This goes to show my ignorance of the business. I wanted to do 220 dates. Just take a year off of everything. Hop on a bus, do a full WWE calendar, and, like, totally say goodbye. Thank goodness that the business isn't like that anymore, because I would be. If you took a gingerbread man, just broke him, I'd be done. They only needed me for 36.
- [194:49]
A
Did they? Did you ever ask your half brother, Dom Toretto for any advice or.
- [194:54]
D
No. I ask Vin for advice all the time.
- [194:56]
A
You do?
- [194:57]
D
Yeah.
- [194:57]
A
And he stayed in touch with Vin.
- [194:59]
D
We text back and forth all the time. Really? He's a really good dude, man. And there's another guy who's like.
- [195:08]
He keeps himself, but if you know him, he's like a really wise, genuine dude.
- [195:13]
A
I love how loyal he is to Paul Walker, man. He keeps the memory alive in all these different ways, and it always seems completely authentic to me. He just really loved the guy, and he always wants to bring him up in a good way.
- [195:26]
D
I also know he cares about his body of work and he cares about the people he works with. And that's also cool.
- [195:34]
Nah, Cool guy. Shout out to Vin. I definitely keep in touch with Vince.
- [195:37]
A
I mean, it's funny. Cause it's not like you weren't famous, but that franchise is basically like you're entering the Marvel universe when you're in a fast movie.
- [195:44]
D
And I get to be a Toretto. Yeah, I get to be Jacob Toretto when They're like.
- [195:48]
A
I had some notes about whether the.
- [195:51]
D
Bring it all on.
- [195:51]
A
I don't know the relations, but I just didn't really seem like you guys had a lot in common genetically.
- [195:57]
D
I got to wear the cross. And as they would say, it's in the books.
- [196:01]
A
Do you have to do any fake. Fake driving preparation. And you sort of. Were they teaching you how to.
- [196:08]
D
I don't drive.
- [196:09]
A
Because you're doing.
- [196:10]
C
You're.
- [196:10]
A
You're. They have car full of cameras. Right. And you gotta. It just seems like it's this weird. Weirdly hard acting that you wouldn't think would be hard.
- [196:20]
D
So.
- [196:20]
A
Because you got to pretend like things are coming. This is happening. Sky's crossing.
- [196:27]
D
Two things about me. One, I love to drive. And two, I haven't never, thank goodness, shut off my imagination.
- [196:34]
A
Yeah.
- [196:35]
C
Yeah.
- [196:35]
D
So like doing Bumblebee. Working with Bumblebee was a long stick with a tennis ball. Peacemaker. Eagly was a gray bowling pin. Fast. A lot of times you're driving green screen.
- [196:47]
B
Yeah.
- [196:49]
D
Just a trip to imagination land.
- [196:50]
A
Just throw yourself into it.
- [196:51]
D
Yeah.
- [196:52]
A
Did you feel like people didn't know who you were in the fast universe? You're like, who is this guy?
- [196:58]
D
That's the thing. Like, I don't expect anyone to know who I am and I don't care.
- [197:01]
A
It feels like it's. And I'm a. I'm a card carrying, Fast and furious guy, but it's. It's like this universe that's over here in a lot of ways and it's massive and it's global.
- [197:10]
D
So is wwe.
- [197:11]
A
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's almost like. I wonder what the overlap was between the two worlds.
- [197:15]
D
So again, like, I can't say how much WWE's prepared me for who I am.
- [197:22]
Here's a genre where you can go around the world and little kids come up to you and do this, but no one in entertainment knows you. So a lot of the opportunities I've had, people have no effing clue who I am. And that's okay because I just want to do good. I figure it's just like in wrestling when nobody knew who I was.
- [197:43]
A
Yeah.
- [197:44]
D
All right. All I got to do is go out there and get the noise and then I'll get another chance. Just go out there and get the noise. I don't care that people don't know who I am that don't know my story. What I care is at one point someone was like, I'm gonna bet on you. And maybe it's to say a few lines or a cameo or whatever.
- [198:03]
Dom needs a brother.
- [198:06]
Connect the dots however you want. We would like to bet on you.
- [198:09]
A
I feel like that brother would've come up in the first eight movies.
- [198:12]
D
Hey, man, I'm glad it came up in the ninth, and I'm glad it was me. So in the bottom of the ninth, I made it in. You know what I'm saying?
- [198:19]
A
Stuck in there.
- [198:20]
D
Just try to do the best you can with the opportunities and don't care. I never care about who knows me and who doesn't.
- [198:27]
A
I don't even know where Vin ends and Dom begins at this point. I just picture him hanging out. Like, he invites you to his birthday party and he gives a speech to everybody, and he's like, to me, familia. And does, like, one of the coronas all around. Yeah. And just the coronas and does this whole thing. I just feel like he's merged.
- [198:48]
D
I bet there are folks out there that would have that perspective about me to say, like, I don't know where John Cena, the WWE character, ends and where, like, John begins.
- [198:57]
A
Right.
- [198:57]
D
So.
- [198:58]
A
Well, you were the first era of the people that didn't have the gimmick or, like, you actually just used your name.
- [199:03]
D
You want to talk again about luck? That was not my choice.
- [199:06]
A
Right. And now that's basically almost everybody.
- [199:08]
D
They went from an attitude era of edgy tv, and for a hot second, they were like, we want more realism. I snuck in.
- [199:17]
A
Yeah.
- [199:18]
D
Like, in them, like the Indiana Jones where the thing is, like, closing. And I snuck in, like, me, Brock, Randy, Batista, Shelton, Benjamin under the thing. We got it. You know? And.
- [199:31]
So many people would look at that and be like, well, you don't own your name. I don't care. So many people, because of what WWE has done, have put the IP out there, have allowed me to get so many opportunities so I could be greedy and try to cash in on, like, give me every shekel that is attached to that name because it's my name. Or I could be grateful to be like, because of that name, I did this, this, and this, which they have nothing to do with. And then they vaulted into this, this, and this, which they have nothing to do with. And every once in a while, there's a ball cap and T shirt thing that they absolutely get what they've earned. But it's weird because it's like, man, you got to use your real name. But some people come at it from the perspective of, like, do they own your name? That's weird. It Just is what it is. I'm so lucky.
- [200:21]
A
I'd like to see you at a couple more big Boston sports games. I think would be a good 20, 26 and beyond for you. Like, lean into the Boston thing a little more. We count your titles.
- [200:30]
D
You would like to.
- [200:31]
A
Yeah, 27 titles in the 21st century. Thanks.
- [200:34]
D
You count them weird.
- [200:35]
A
What do you mean?
- [200:36]
D
You counted them weird?
- [200:37]
A
Why? Well, I counted the WWF ones. Wwf? E. Were they all E or were there a couple Fs in there?
- [200:43]
D
I think they were all E. They're.
- [200:46]
A
All E. I forget. I never really. I always thought they should have won that lawsuit.
- [200:52]
I get it. The other one was first, but it always bugged me.
- [200:55]
D
Sometimes it's not worth it.
- [200:57]
A
Yeah, I guess not. And they move seamlessly to wwe.
- [201:00]
D
What a great way, again, to, like, no, we're going in this direction. No one's going to get it until everyone gets it, right? And, man, I had folks in, like, 2014. You still with WWF? Yo, it has been WWE for, like, a. A decade now. Now no one.
- [201:19]
The F is out, so good choice.
- [201:23]
A
You had to get rid of the F in one of your moves, right?
- [201:27]
D
Yes, yes.
- [201:29]
A
When they went pg.
- [201:31]
D
So, again.
- [201:34]
A good explanation, right?
- [201:37]
Brock Lesnar's move was the F5. And I had a similar move where you pick a guy up. We both pick guys up. He's a little bit more strong, where he helicopters the guy.
- [201:46]
A
Be yours was the fu.
- [201:48]
D
But it came out of nowhere. Like, I'm a middle. So again, the match is not about me. I'm a middleman for Brock to beat, to go to the Undertaker. But the more you can make that middle match exciting, the cooler it is because it's a good one off of the fans. So I didn't try to make Brock look bad, but I was abrasive with my trash talk and was like, you have the F5, I have the Fu. And that's where the.
- [202:15]
A
That's a pretty good line.
- [202:16]
D
That's where the name of the move happened. So I kept using it. And then as we evolved into pg, I was told, like, hey, we can't use that anymore. And then switching it to the attitude adjustment has been incredible because, like, it's so weird that art imitates life. Like, I'm always trying to change people's perspective or offer them a new perspective. So literally, I'm trying or leaning into the fact that you can adjust your attitude no matter what at any moment, and that really changes the dynamic of anything.
- [202:54]
If the move was still called the Fu. It'd be tough for me to sit here.
- [202:59]
A
Yeah, seriously.
- [203:00]
D
You know what I'm saying? It evolved because it had to, but rather than swimming upstream. Yeah, okay. It's the a. It's the attitude adjustment.
- [203:07]
C
All right.
- [203:07]
A
December 13th, Saturday night's main event. Yeah, we don't know who you're fighting yet. I hope for the sake of your chest, it's LA Knight. So you don't have, like, dark maroon slap marks.
- [203:17]
D
Ah, it's my last one.
- [203:18]
A
Yeah, it'll be fine.
- [203:19]
B
All right.
- [203:19]
D
And I got two.
- [203:20]
A
Keep going.
- [203:21]
D
I got two big old.
- [203:22]
A
Whose favorite in that match?
- [203:24]
D
What's that?
- [203:24]
A
Gunther versus LA Knight. Who's the favorite?
- [203:28]
D
Man, pretty close.
- [203:31]
A
Two guys who've been doing really well the last couple years.
- [203:35]
D
I like the edge that LA Knight has. Like, he operates on a nothing to lose sort of thing. I think many times this is. I think many times he might be his own biggest hurdle. But, gosh, if there's a dude willing to bet on himself, it's La Knight.
- [203:52]
A
And I admire that would be fitting if you beat somebody with the LA in his name in your last match.
- [203:58]
D
It would also be great if it was in Boston, but none of that shit is in our control.
- [204:03]
A
Yeah, it sounds like you just would.
- [204:05]
D
Have done Tampa 36 in Tampa would be glorious.
- [204:08]
A
It feels like you're becoming like a Bucks fan. I don't even know if you're focused on this Patriots.
- [204:13]
D
This is going to burn this room up. I don't even watch anymore, man.
- [204:16]
A
You're done. Well, you're too busy. You're flying back and forth from Budapest.
- [204:21]
D
And you're wrestling and making movies takes time. I don't even know what day it is, man. Yeah.
- [204:25]
C
All right.
- [204:26]
A
John Cena. Congrats on everything. I'm glad we found that's how we're ending it.
- [204:28]
D
We're ending it on a downer of, like, I don't even want to happen anymore, man.
- [204:32]
A
We're ending it on.
- [204:33]
D
That's how it goes. That's the last moment we have.
- [204:36]
A
Well, I could make you do a freestyle rap.
- [204:38]
D
No, you can't make me do anything. You could ask me to and I'll say no. That's a great idea. Yeah. That's no good.
- [204:44]
A
I'm happy for you that you feel like this last year was, in some ways, your favorite year. That's a great way to go out. How many people get to retire on their terms where they're actually happy with that played out?
- [204:54]
D
You used it. You said it was my terms. I would do it in infinity if I could. This is not my terms. These aren't my terms.
- [205:00]
A
What is your terms?
- [205:01]
D
My terms is do it forever.
- [205:02]
A
But you can control when you stop doing it and you're controlling it, which is a good thing.
- [205:07]
D
Well, again, I asked if, like, hey, company, do you think this is a good business idea? And they agreed, so we're able to do it. What I love most about the year is I think it will keep on giving. Moments after it's done, I think people will begin to continue to reflect and like, oh, but maybe it was. This was the story they were trying to tell. I think it's weird to talk about it because WWE is so at. At the moment. Like something happens on television and people like, I hate this. Or like, this is the greatest and it has been a year long story. And people will digest it once the last one happens on the 13th. And then I think they'll reflect, especially when they realize that I'm not coming back. And then you could dive into like, oh, man, what were they really trying to do across a year? It's never been done before.
- [206:06]
I could not give an ounce more of effort. I don't think there's a single thing I would have changed. And I like that it isn't perfect. I like it. I like that parts changed. I like that dates and cities changed. I like that the last one isn't in Boston. And all the stuff that like, it would be perfect if. No, life isn't perfect. Like, you just do the best you can with what you got. And I personally like all that stuff. That's in my opinion.
- [206:32]
A
I like the patience angle is good too. Because you're right. Everybody's like, yes, no, quick, move on to the next thing. Scroll up and down on my reels.
- [206:40]
D
Something as simple as, like, in my last title defense having Liv Morgan assist and beat me in the same way that I turned on Cody, but she did it better than me.
- [206:52]
A
Yeah.
- [206:53]
D
Just being able to like, hey, wait, you're gonna get a callback to this moment in February, in November, but just wait for it. Wait for it. And being able to pay it off that late in the game, like, I don't know. And whether that means anything to anyone else but me, I just, I like to know that there's not a moment I'm not thinking of. There's nothing. We're doing everything we can. I'm doing everything I can. So I just, I hope it. If it doesn't. Nothing ever stands the test of time. But I'll be Very good on the 13th. Knowing that, like, all right, I gave the best I could this year. I truly, all the wisdom, tricks.
- [207:31]
Knowledge, physical ability, strength I have left, effort, seconds, time, you know, advice, whatever. Every. I don't have anything left, you know. And the 13th is gonna be special in that regard of like putting a period on.
- [207:45]
A
Did Dom Toretto RSVP yet or.
- [207:47]
D
No, can't make it. He's gotta save the world.
- [207:51]
A
Too bad.
- [207:52]
D
I don't wanna, I don't wanna tell you what it's about, but there's cars involved.
- [207:56]
A
He gets selfish that way with the cars.
- [207:58]
D
Duty calls.
- [207:59]
A
John Cena, thank you. Great to do this.
- [208:01]
D
Thank you.
- [208:03]
A
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to John Cena, thanks to House and Bellamy, thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. New rewatchables coming on Monday. I'll tell you the movie on Sunday night because we haven't taped it yet and I want to make sure it actually gets taped. But in the meantime, you can watch on HBO and HBO Max, our first installment of this season of the Music Box series. It is the Jeff Buckley documentary by Amy Berg. It's awesome. It premieres on HBO Thursday night and then you can find it on HBO Max as well. So go check it out. Have a great weekend. I will see you on Sunday with cousin Sal live after the Sunday night game.
- [208:57]
Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 Plus. I'm president in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gamble problem. Call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com, call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.