← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Arch Manning, NFL Announcers, a New Deal for 'PTI', the Ballmer Scandal, and a Crawford-Canelo Megafight With Van Lathan Jr., Bryan Curtis, and Chris Mannix
02:01:09
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
The Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network where I put up a new rewatchables for you. On Monday night we did Legend of Billie Jean. It came out 40 years ago. It was a one for us. For me and Chris Ryan, it's an absolute cable classic. It was on for 25 straight years. You can find it all over the place on tubi, other places. But we had a lot of fun talking about that movie because it created the Internet. A lot of people don't realize I was also on the Prestige TV podcast with Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney talking about episode one of Task on hbo, a show that we really like. It's a murder mystery. So we did a recap. We made some predictions. So if you like that show, you can check that out. Don't forget about all of our football content because football season started. The Ringer gambling show going every day now, noon ET. You can watch it live on YouTube and you can also listen to it as a podcast. The Ringer Tailgate with Van and Joel and Tate. We're doing that on Wednesdays and Saturdays, Saturdays live. McShay is going to be live on Saturdays too during the college football season. So we got a lot of good stuff going on coming on this podcast. Van Lathan is here. We tried something with the studio where he joined me almost like it's a TV show. And we brought Brian Curtis on to talk about some college football, University of Texas media stuff, the new NFL college, all the media storylines that are happening non players versus players. We talked about pti, whole bunch of media things. And then after that, Chris Mannix we had to talk more. More Ballmer Clippers aspiration Kawhi a scandal that I am now finding a lot of humor in. But Mannix gave us an update of where we're going with that. But then the big reason Van requested this, we want to talk about Crawford and Canelo, which has a chance to be one of the biggest fights of this decade, if not the biggest, if it's actually a good fight, but a lot of great storylines with that. It's coming up this weekend. So this is an action packed one. Let's take a break. Let's bring in Pearl Jam and then we're going to talk to Brian Curtis. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel and the NFL is back and thank God FanDuel has everything. They got an awesome app, they have SGPs, they have great futures, they have good Prop bets Live betting your way Bets Clean app. It's great to use. Been using it for a few years. Every time I go back to Boston or any place that has Fando and I get to use it, I'm always excited. I'm on an airplane Runway. You done the airplane Runway?
- [02:34]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [02:35]
Bill Simmons
Everybody, airplane Runway. There should be a button. The Runway. I'm on the airplane Runway. I got to get this in. Get your bets in. Build something bold, make every game feel bigger. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. The Ringer committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus in President select states or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem. Call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut paid end all right, we're taping this on Tuesday afternoon. We are in the aspiration studio. Van Lathan and I, our new sponsor, they just. Brian, they just gave me $7 million out of nowhere. I don't even have to do anything. But I decided to name the studio after them.
- [03:55]
Brian Curtis
It's really nice you got a no show job, too, out of this.
- [03:58]
Bill Simmons
I did my no show. I just have to remember to say the thing. This is your kind of season. Football just started. College football just started.
- [04:05]
Van Lathan
Absolutely.
- [04:06]
Bill Simmons
Announcers are back. University of Texas in the mix. Let's start with our guy, Arch Manning. Let's try to have a calm conversation. You're talking about this on ringer tailgate all the time. Measured. Curtis, what were your expectations going in and what are your expectations now?
- [04:23]
Brian Curtis
Well, first of all, when I was in Texas, Chris Sims got recruited by the Longhorns. This is actually my second Nepo quarterback. I've never felt older. You know, this is the story.
- [04:36]
Van Lathan
Chris Sims comes over. A guy named Major Applewhite was the quarterback before from Catholic High in Baton Rouge. And they feel like they have to play Chris Sims because he at that point was the godsend Nepo qb. It's the second time it happened at.
- [04:52]
Brian Curtis
Texas and he came out and he looked like Arch Schmanig did in his first game. He really did. He looked scared. He looked like he didn't know how to play quarterback, which was the weird part. And Bill, of course, now that we're in the NIL era, we're watching Texas, Ohio State, and it goes to commercial and there's a Warby Parker ad starring Arch Manning. You're just like, wow, the world's really different now.
- [05:14]
Van Lathan
He had like, three commercials at a point. He had more commercials and he had completions. People were like, what's going on? He had. There was a couple commercials that were coming on. Do you think he shakes back from it, though? You think that the best from Archman Inn is yet to come?
- [05:27]
Brian Curtis
I do. The only thing I'm worried about is.
- [05:30]
Bill Simmons
I don't know if that seems very positive, Curtis.
- [05:32]
Brian Curtis
Yeah, I do. I mean, I think, look, he's got, like, three cream puffs in a row, so he's going to get a bunch of stats, and I think he'll get better as the year goes on. The one thing I want to make sure that Conspiracy Build knows Van is about the videos that are out there, because there's like a bunch of Abraham Zapruders of college football. And there was one of Arch throwing a pass this last week, and he was grimacing like he had a terrible shoulder injury.
- [05:54]
Bill Simmons
Was it like an AI thing?
- [05:56]
Brian Curtis
No, it was real from the. From the broadcast. And they asked the Texas coach about it, and he gave this really weird defensive answer at the press conference. So that's kind of where Texas fandom is, like, I think still in on Arch High. On Arch, but a little worried.
- [06:12]
Bill Simmons
What is the Texas football Reddit, Twitter? What are the other sites that Texas fans would go to?
- [06:19]
Van Lathan
They got all kinds of rivals, message sports. Everybody's got message boards.
- [06:23]
Bill Simmons
What's the number one people going nuts post?
- [06:28]
Brian Curtis
I think it's just the Arch. Like, what the hell was that? You know, Because I think there was. With quarterbacks in college, you always think, you know, they're usually. They're off an 18. Like Michigan last week against Oklahoma. You know, you guys, like, these are young kids. They're playing in front of the big lights. But Arch is a junior, or he's been in the program for two years already.
- [06:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that's not true.
- [06:46]
Brian Curtis
He played football last year. He had starts last year. People talking like it was his first start. It wasn't his first start. He played a lot last year. Wasn't against great teams, but he played. So there was just this little bit of like, are we sure? Are we sure he's the chosen one? Were we putting too much into the surname?
- [07:03]
Bill Simmons
Are we sure? Are we sure, Vance?
- [07:05]
Van Lathan
No, we're not sure of anything. But you know what? We're not just not sure of architecture. We're not sure of Arch. We're not sure of DJ Lagway. We're not sure of Drew Allard. This was supposed to be a quarterback class that had as much talent as any quarterback class in recent memory. And we're watching these guys play, not just Arch. We're watching these guys play. As I say this, LSU has to play Florida. So watch DJ Lagway come out and throw for 4,000 yards and run for another 2,000. But we're watching all of these QBs, and a lot of it, we're not seeing it show up quite yet. Which says two things. Number one, it's early in the season. Let everybody get into their offense a little bit and figure out what it is that's going on. Number two, it's probably best to evaluate a quarterbacking prospect on the games that they've played and not on the trajectory of their talent. Now, even Klubnick, who was supposed to be a QB that by all, for all intents and purposes, figured out his game last year to took Clemson to the playoff. He was supposed to come out there and light it up. Two games hasn't done it. So maybe K Clubnick is who he is, and maybe we should let these guys figure out how they're going to be successful as football players before we make them the next John Elway.
- [08:17]
Brian Curtis
Raj, I agree.
- [08:18]
Bill Simmons
Didn't Texas recruit Raj's son?
- [08:20]
Brian Curtis
Yeah.
- [08:21]
Bill Simmons
Isn't he coming next year?
- [08:22]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [08:23]
Bill Simmons
And Arch might just stay off four years.
- [08:26]
Brian Curtis
I think that was a plan all along, and I think that's what they were always planning on. And quarterbacks, like, I don't know, did. I didn't think Ohio State had a quarterback who win the national championship last year until the national championship game was over.
- [08:38]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [08:39]
Brian Curtis
I mean, you know, like, college seasons are weird. It's really long. Now, Texas also had all these hidden things, like an offensive line with a bunch of new starters, skill position players that were new or not broken in yet. And so this, like, it could be long. I still would bet on Texas long term because the schedule's not terribly hard for the SEC and I think they could be in the playoffs.
- [08:59]
Van Lathan
Did you feel like Arch comes out and obviously they obliterate San Jose State. And if you look at the stat line, the stat line looked good. But if you looked at the actual game, if you looked at the tape, which now that I'm one of the foremost experts in college football in the entire world, that's what I do.
- [09:15]
Bill Simmons
That's what they're saying. I grind tape I have Joel number one.
- [09:17]
Van Lathan
Joel is right there. I'm coming for his spot. I grind tape. If you look at the tape, a lot of those throws were into gigantic windows and those balls weren't really on the money. So there's still people asking questions about. Even in a game where he seemingly played well, whether or not Arch has it.
- [09:32]
Brian Curtis
Absolutely. I mean, I looked like I was covering some of those Texas receivers, like Parker Livingston on Saturday. I mean, it was. You know, I was. I wouldn't have been in the frame. And neither were the San Jose State defensive back.
- [09:42]
Bill Simmons
So.
- [09:43]
Brian Curtis
Yeah, it's weird. I mean, it's. College is a weird game. I mean, it's just like, you know, you get games like that. Like, what do we do with something like a win like that? You're happy. If you're a Texas fan, you were a little relieved because if he'd come out and struggled in that, you're like, oh, my God. But you also don't really. It's very, very hard to project all the way through the season.
- [10:00]
Bill Simmons
It was funny how good the first weekend and how interesting all the storylines were. And then last weekend they basically kind of punted on the weekend. See, this is the thing I was watching. So this is casual college fan Bill. I'm just telling you, for the casuals.
- [10:15]
Van Lathan
Like myself, I wish that you guys could ever. I wish you guys could, like be connected to Bill's college football fandom. I remember when Bill was the world's greatest Colorado football fan. He was really.
- [10:27]
Bill Simmons
I really enjoyed that. That was a really fun year. Last weekend.
- [10:30]
Van Lathan
Last weekend was the weekend for the die hard college football fan. Because you have to think about some of the stuff that happened. You had USF go on the road to Florida, be Florida. You had Arizona State lose in Starksville to Mississippi State.
- [10:48]
Bill Simmons
After some of these games weren't even on. I would have had to get like a new bundle subscription on espn. There was like an ACC network I would have had to subscribe to.
- [10:58]
Van Lathan
All of these games were on.
- [10:59]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. No, but they were on these bundles. Actually. Casual Bill only watches CBS and Fox and NBC.
- [11:06]
Brian Curtis
You saw the thing, Bill, with the ESPN app, they're trying to do college red zone or some form of college red zone.
- [11:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [11:11]
Brian Curtis
For the casuals, college red zone is absolutely the thing you need because you.
- [11:14]
Bill Simmons
Know what I need?
- [11:15]
Brian Curtis
We're going to Starkville right now.
- [11:18]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I'm gonna start doing that.
- [11:19]
Van Lathan
Yeah, college red zone will work because, like now and then you get to kind of see you don't have to get Into. I watch every part of it. I was upset that they did not televise the halftime show of the Grambling Band at Ohio State. I wanted to see that matchup. The matchup of the Ohio State Band versus the Grambling Band.
- [11:39]
Bill Simmons
Who won that matchup? Did we ever find out?
- [11:41]
Van Lathan
I didn't see it, but I'm telling you already that I know Grambling won't, um. But it just. I didn't have to see.
- [11:46]
Bill Simmons
You're like minus 500 favorites.
- [11:47]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I didn't have to see it. But no, it, you know, it's a really. This is one of the more interesting seasons because at the top of the sport, there's no dominant team, there's no dominant program.
- [11:57]
Bill Simmons
Dare I say the playoff, which everybody hated and resisted forever, has actually sucked in people like me. Cause I think it has.
- [12:05]
Brian Curtis
I think so. I was a little skeptical because I was, you know, the old school, the regular season is so cool. It's the only sport where you have to be perfect now. I love it. I mean, it's like there's so much. And it was. It did feel a little long last year. It felt weird to have that final on a Monday after a huge NFL weekend. But man, there's. The regular season felt great last year. There was so many big games and we're already off to a really good start.
- [12:27]
Bill Simmons
You know, I'm going to name drop. You know, Larry David hates field goal kickers and he hated that the jets lost on a 60 yard field goal. He just doesn't think. He's talked about this on a million shows. He doesn't think those people should decide football games. And so we were talking about like, if they just got rid of kickers, people would be like, oh my God, they got rid of kickers. And then I think within like four weeks, people would be like, this is fucking awesome. Everyone's just going for it on every fourth down. I fucking love this. Why do we have kickers? And I think the College Football Playoff is kind of like that, where people are like, oh, we can't do this, it's gonna ruin em. And now we're here and it's like, eh, it's pretty good.
- [13:11]
Van Lathan
So much of the sport is about tradition.
- [13:13]
Bill Simmons
I get it.
- [13:14]
Van Lathan
It's about. I think this was the trepidation is what I'm saying. So much of the sport is about tradition. It's about rivalries.
- [13:20]
Bill Simmons
It's about, this is the way we've always done it.
- [13:21]
Van Lathan
This is the way we've always done it. These are cultural Fights that are playing out on college football fields. This is parts of Alabama. So somebody told me something is like most graduates, most fans of. I was talking to a guy and he said, most fans of the University of Auburn. Most fans of Auburn, they went there, right? And he goes, most fans of Alabama, they go to Walmart and Kwik Trip and all of those places. Basically, that's the rivalry between the two places. And there's no way to really talk about Michigan versus Ohio State. There's really no way to contextualize. It's about emotion. And people were wondering if those games and those moments would lose their emotional resonance if you had a playoff where essentially Ohio State could lose to Michigan and then win the national championship. What we didn't realize was it's extremely interesting to think about whether or not it's a successful season for Ohio State if they lose to Michigan and then win the national championship. It put their fan base and us as college football fans in conflict. Conflict that we wouldn't have if we didn't have the playoff.
- [14:40]
Bill Simmons
It turned into a yeah, but. Yeah, we won the title, but. So what is your take that being immersed in this. So you're pro for the most part, but like now we've sh. The conference disaster and all the moving around seems like it's had. I think that's been what's been. The negative impact has been.
- [14:59]
Brian Curtis
Yeah, I saw on Twitter today Michigan State's playing ucla. That's a conference game.
- [15:04]
Van Lathan
That's crazy.
- [15:04]
Brian Curtis
Just as a reminder, and it starts at 11pm in East Lansing. A conference game starts at 11pm at night.
- [15:12]
Bill Simmons
Are you serious? Yes.
- [15:15]
Brian Curtis
Yes.
- [15:16]
Bill Simmons
So who give us the top three Texas rivals have stayed the same or has anything shifted? Yeah.
- [15:21]
Brian Curtis
So it's Oklahoma, it's Texas A and M and it's Arkansas. But because of all the conference moving around, they kind of got separated. Now they're back in the sec and now they're playing more of their old rivals than they were before, which is kind of weird. Now we play all three. We weren't playing all three before.
- [15:38]
Van Lathan
The one thing I am a traditionalist about is regional. Is regional conferences. The conferences should be set up by region.
- [15:47]
Bill Simmons
Well, I mean, this is college sports. And this is why we had conferences where all the schools were near each other, so student athletes wouldn't have to travel too far to play sports against each other.
- [15:57]
Van Lathan
Right.
- [15:57]
Bill Simmons
And that has been just tossed out the window. And not just for football, but all the sports. It's ridiculous.
- [16:01]
Van Lathan
Even from a competitive standpoint, though. I remember I watched the game, I think it was last year when Penn State came to sc. If you watch the first half of the game, Penn State's walking in quicksand.
- [16:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [16:11]
Van Lathan
Like, there's just. They haven't adjusted yet.
- [16:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [16:14]
Van Lathan
And it puts them at a competitive disadvantage. I mean, you know, you have to travel for these games. Playing on the road is always hard to travel all the way across the country to play them. Right. And then sc. Look at some of the losses they had last year. Some of those losses is because, like, that's a lot of travel time and to get ready and to turn all of that stuff around. So it actually changes the game on the field as well.
- [16:36]
Bill Simmons
To me, I don't like it.
- [16:37]
Brian Curtis
It was funny old ways. You used to get, like, only get a big vacation to the west coast if you made a bowl. It's like, we're going to the Holiday Bowl. This is awesome. We're getting to go to San Diego now. It's a conference game.
- [16:48]
Bill Simmons
Give Van your top Texas moment of all time.
- [16:52]
Brian Curtis
My junior year, 1998, Ricky Williams was one class ahead of me. And I was in the stadium when he broke the rushing record.
- [17:00]
Van Lathan
That's crazy.
- [17:01]
Brian Curtis
Against Texas A. Ricky.
- [17:03]
Bill Simmons
And then Mike Dick had traded this whole draft for him.
- [17:05]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I remember that. I think no limit was the agency at that point. I think people.
- [17:10]
Bill Simmons
I don't think they're still.
- [17:11]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I think then. Then Ricky left. Ricky left. But he was that. I know that's like a boring answer. Besides Major Applewhite, who came from Baton Rouge, watching him run the ball at Ricky. Yeah, he was fantastic.
- [17:23]
Bill Simmons
Casual Bill was all in on the Ricky games.
- [17:25]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [17:26]
Bill Simmons
Give us the media overview of the college football scene. The.
- [17:30]
Van Lathan
The.
- [17:31]
Bill Simmons
And then we can do NFL, too. But college football, like the pregame shows, they've just beefed up now and they've tried to turn. And it seems like it's worked whether you like what you're watching or not. But it does feel bigger.
- [17:42]
Brian Curtis
Yeah. I mean, it's what a world where Lee Corso is escorted off the stage at game day and barstool is brought on at the same time.
- [17:50]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [17:51]
Brian Curtis
I mean, that happened the same week, right?
- [17:54]
Van Lathan
In.
- [17:54]
Brian Curtis
In the same place because they're outside the same stadium in Columbus for Ohio State Texas. I mean, that was weird. I feel like the whole thing is really in flux, but in a good way. Like, people are trying stuff, you know, and it's funny, you know, for game day, for people like me. Watch that show for 20 years, the relationship on that show was corso the coach and Herbie the player. And you know, Herbie was a young guy and then he got older and Corso got older and he was helping him on tv and it was just, it was a very interesting relationship just to watch. And now that's been replaced on game day by Saban the Coach and Pat McAfee the young guy, or comparatively young guy. And that's obviously a completely different vibe. I mean, it's a weird time.
- [18:37]
Bill Simmons
How are you feeling? You have anything on that move?
- [18:39]
Van Lathan
No, I would just say I cannot believe how good Nick Saban is on television. I would have never thought in a million years that he would have been as good on. And I think that's the number one.
- [18:49]
Bill Simmons
Thing he's good at, in your opinion.
- [18:50]
Van Lathan
To me, he is good at teaching the game. The same thing that would have made him a great coach. He's good at giving the reasons that he feels like why a team will win. Not just from a X's and O standpoint, but let me tell you about college football. And he's just a great ambassador for the game.
- [19:10]
Bill Simmons
It was the thing Belichick never totally figured out how to do in his one year media tour last year. Clearly they have the same DNA and they're trying to do the same things, but Saban seems more accessible. Belichick always was kind of going to Ed Reed, who's unbelievable player.
- [19:25]
Van Lathan
Well, I mean, last year Belichick didn't have any energy left over for that.
- [19:28]
Bill Simmons
Well, he's getting wiped out.
- [19:30]
Van Lathan
Yeah. He's like up all night long every night, literally trained. Yeah. So like he's just going in there.
- [19:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Maybe Saban. Maybe if saban have a 25 year.
- [19:39]
Van Lathan
Old girlfriend, it's not too late.
- [19:40]
Bill Simmons
Could happen.
- [19:41]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [19:41]
Bill Simmons
You agree on Saban.
- [19:43]
Brian Curtis
Yeah. Don't tell that to Ms. Terry. By the way, Nick Saban, very happily married man.
- [19:47]
Van Lathan
Happily man. I apologize to Ms. Terry.
- [19:50]
Chris Mannix
I do.
- [19:51]
Brian Curtis
And I also think Nick Saban committed to being in television.
- [19:54]
Bill Simmons
Right. And didn't care about it.
- [19:55]
Brian Curtis
He didn't want to be in. Bill Belichick wanted a coach.
- [19:57]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [19:58]
Brian Curtis
Like, he was like, here's something to make me kind of smiley and happy for a year and then I can go back to doing what I want to do.
- [20:04]
Bill Simmons
The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel football fans. Every NFL Thursday, it's your chance to hit the jackpot on FanDuel. FanDuel's Thursday touchdown jackpot. You can win a share of $2 million in bonus bets each week to get in on this Thursday's action, all you have to do is place an anytime touchdown score bet for the game between the Commanders and the Packers Kickoff. I have the Packers. If your player scores the first or last TD of the game, you win your bet plus a share of bonus bets. So you could go Tucker Kraft for first TV td. You can say hey, Washington's going to get blown out but at the end of the game Terry McLaurin is going to score the last TD. Put those together. Go nuts. FanDuel.com BS for your chance to win a share of $2 million in bonus bets, play your game with FanDuel. An official sports betting partner of the NFL must be 21 + President in select states or 18 + in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in must apply profit boost token on select market prize pool to be split equally among all eligible participants who made the correct first or last TD pick bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus batch which expires 21 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com, gamma Problem Code 100 Gambler, visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket. My friend, NFL Sundays are back. You won't want to miss the action. NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV. Another friend of mine lets you catch every game every Sunday all in one place. And now get NFL Sunday ticket month to month and cancel anytime. Head to YouTube.com BS and sign up now. Local National Games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday Ticket for out of market games. Excludes digital only games and commercial use. If you cancel YouTube TV, you will lose access to NFL Sunday Ticket. Terms of Bargos Device and content restrictions apply. Commercial use excluded. Renews every month during the 2025 regular season. Cancel anytime Belichick leaves. Who's the big NFL media story? What's the number one thing? Last year we had Brady joining, we had Belichick doing NFL and it was like, oh my God, look at this, look at this. What is it this year?
- [22:16]
Brian Curtis
I think it's J.J. watt after week.
- [22:18]
Bill Simmons
One on the number two team.
- [22:22]
Brian Curtis
Yeah, because you know, you know how this goes, Bill.
- [22:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's like the backup quarterback.
- [22:26]
Brian Curtis
When your quarterback's struggling, everybody looks over him and go, ooh, what about that guy? I mean, I was like, I was talking to Shoemaker on the press box and I was like, how soon are we going to get people calling for Tony Romo to be replaced by J.J. watt on the number one team. And then I looked on Twitter and it basically had already happened.
- [22:44]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [22:45]
Brian Curtis
I was like, oh. I was like. It was like the first quarter of week one, like, oh, this guy's much better.
- [22:49]
Bill Simmons
So you don't feel like Romo got righted the ship at all in the last two years or.
- [22:54]
Brian Curtis
No, I'm not saying that's correct, but I just think when you put somebody in the number two slot, I mean, look at the Olson Brady stuff. And that's a different dynamic, but you're always going to have that. And this is some. A network guy told me this when the whole Romo salary explosion happened. I was like, what did you take away from this? And he was like, always have a number two. Always have a backup plan so you don't get held up by your number one guy.
- [23:17]
Bill Simmons
Interesting. Olson did the San Francisco Seattle game. He's really good.
- [23:22]
Van Lathan
He's just that one. So glaring though. Yeah, that's so glaring. After a while. I was about to say. Actually, I can't say that I was about to say it makes me almost feel bad for Tom Brady. Nothing can make me feel bad for Tom Brady, but.
- [23:35]
Bill Simmons
Well, what about his wife dating a jiu Jitsu instructor?
- [23:39]
Brian Curtis
That's what I'm talking.
- [23:40]
Van Lathan
I mean, that's good for her. You know, he knows how to do all the different poses and stuff. But like for me, nothing can make me feel bad about talking. But that's a glaring one. The Watt situation. That's interesting to me because I actually do think that Romo, who started off on fire and then kind of obviously became a character caricature of himself. I think Romo's kind of got it back together now.
- [24:04]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I thought he was better last year. I, I definitely. He slipped. There's no question. But I, I thought. Thought he seemed a little more locked in. I thought Aikman and Buck are the best right now. And I, I don't even think it's.
- [24:15]
Brian Curtis
Arguable, you know, Brady was better week one.
- [24:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [24:19]
Brian Curtis
I don't know how much sounds.
- [24:20]
Bill Simmons
We didn't have the audio for that. I didn't hear any of it. Cause we. It wasn't on our multi view.
- [24:24]
Brian Curtis
That game was complete trash.
- [24:26]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [24:26]
Brian Curtis
Like there was a moment right before the half. He just sounded like first of all, he just knew what he wanted to say. He was making one point instead of trying to make five points, which is announcer mistake. But he had this moment right before the half. Jaden Daniels, they're about to go in and score Again. And he throws the ball away. And Brie's like, that's going to be intentional grounding. 10 second runoff. Half is over. And you can feel like Kevin Burkhart and Dean Blandino laying like, wait, what? And then the ref comes in and he was right. And it was one of the first moments I've heard. Because you know this, announcers can give you good information, but what you really want is them to be in control and to be like five to 10 steps ahead of you as a viewer.
- [25:01]
Bill Simmons
Bring up something that I hadn't thought about yet.
- [25:04]
Brian Curtis
And that was one of the first moments that Brady did that for me where I was like, oh, wow. He saw that way before anybody, even in his own booth did.
- [25:13]
Bill Simmons
Were you surprised Inside the NFL basically died?
- [25:17]
Brian Curtis
You mean it's on X?
- [25:19]
Bill Simmons
It's on Twitter as like a short video show. I thought that to me, Inside the NFL would last. I'll be dead and it'll still be on. It was one of those shows. And then something started to happen with it and maybe. What is it? Do you think it's just the era we live in now where everything's so fast.
- [25:37]
Van Lathan
I think a couple of things happened. Number one, the. I think the Fox studio show market corrected Inside the NFL a little bit. I know that.
- [25:46]
Bill Simmons
And podcasts. I would throw that aside.
- [25:47]
Van Lathan
Podcasting as well. I know it's not the same thing, but when I was growing up, the coolest bunch of guys, the coolest football discussion was happening on Inside the NFL. The way those guys would talk about the game.
- [26:00]
Bill Simmons
Then it moved. Couldn't agree more.
- [26:01]
Van Lathan
Then it moved to Howie and Terry and all of those guys. And that was the coolest one. And they had all kinds of other stuff. Jay Glazer was on there. What was the lady that used to come on there when it first started? It's like a really beautiful woman that used to come on there.
- [26:16]
Bill Simmons
Oh, Jillian Barbarean.
- [26:18]
Van Lathan
Barbare.
- [26:18]
Bill Simmons
Jimmy Kimmel. He used to come on. Yeah.
- [26:20]
Van Lathan
So, like all of that stuff, they became kind of the cool football show.
- [26:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [26:26]
Van Lathan
And that Inside the NFL to me was never the same. And it was still on HBO at that point, which also was different for a lot of people.
- [26:34]
Bill Simmons
You know what? I think part of what killed it was all the quips are just online now. Like, I watched yesterday last night after that Viking game with JJ McCarthy, throws the pick six, has this dramatic comeback as Caleb's cratering on the other side and he makes some big throws. But they had the locker room. I love the locker room. Stuff and Kevin o' Connell giving him the game ball. Being like, everybody in this locker room knew what this guy was going to do and he did it. And then they cut to J.J. mcCarthy and he's like, yeah, and he gets the ball and they're all mobbing him. And it's like, that's the kind of thing I would watch inside the NFL for on Wednesday nights. Because they would have those things. And now I'm getting him instantaneously on wherever. So once I think they lost that. Plus, you know, it's just. The discourse is just constant. It makes sense. It went away. I'm still surprised though, Curtis. I felt like that was a staple.
- [27:28]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [27:28]
Brian Curtis
And the NFL film's footage was always really cool. I mean, that's something that you really couldn't replace. Even if you watch the whole TV game, even if you saw the clips on Twitter, it's still really awesome.
- [27:38]
Bill Simmons
The guys talking shit to each other, the wide receivers getting into it with the D backs. I ate it up.
- [27:43]
Van Lathan
That still, though, is better than. Than anything that's coming out football related. It's 7 o' clock in the morning at Commander Stadium, whatever. And then the guy with the music comes in and then all of a.
- [27:56]
Bill Simmons
Sudden.
- [27:58]
Van Lathan
The player comes in. We gonna get wild today, baby. We gonna take them all the way. And then after that, and then the whole way that that would come out would be fantastic. There's nothing like that now. But it's. But even that now or there's too.
- [28:11]
Bill Simmons
Much of it now.
- [28:12]
Van Lathan
What do you mean? Like, there's no one that I don't feel like is putting that type of production value.
- [28:16]
Bill Simmons
Oh yeah, I see.
- [28:16]
Van Lathan
That' type of production value into covering.
- [28:19]
Bill Simmons
Does it need production value if it just exists all the time? If I'm getting it 24 7, why do I need it to be a produced version of it?
- [28:27]
Brian Curtis
Yeah, we get.
- [28:28]
Bill Simmons
It feels like we're in no man's land.
- [28:29]
Brian Curtis
But what Vance talking about that camera coming out of the tunnel into a stadium with the music. Oh, man, that's. I mean, that just. That gives me chills.
- [28:36]
Bill Simmons
There's certain things we just did and it's really weird because the technology is better, the people are smarter, and the equipment's better. And yet, like, sometimes you'll see on Instagram they'll have like, I don't know, they'll do an Intro to the AFC title game from 1997 and it's like, this is fucking awesome.
- [28:55]
Van Lathan
It just got you more hype.
- [28:56]
Bill Simmons
Why? I don't know why we Kind of peaked with this stuff. 15, 20 now it's like too elaborate. Well, Brent Musburger, 40 years ago going, you're game five. The Lakers didn't realize that. That, you know, and they just, it would get you ready to go for the game.
- [29:13]
Van Lathan
A couple of things have changed. Well, obviously technology is one of them. Right now we have a camera that's zooming all over the. That's the draw. It's not the actual guy setting up the game for you anymore. It's the next gen Stats say He's running at 25 miles an hour or whatever it is. All of that stuff is kind of the stuff. And I'm a little older. I'm a little older.
- [29:32]
Bill Simmons
So that was the way you're nostalgic.
- [29:33]
Van Lathan
For the other stats. I'm nostalgic for it. That's the way I could see.
- [29:35]
Bill Simmons
But Curtis and I are constantly nostalgic.
- [29:37]
Brian Curtis
Oh, my God. You know, the thing I miss that you're talking about is the tease before a big game. And Bob Costas was incredible at the teaser. And I don't know why they don't do the tease anymore. Because, like, if you are a casual fan coming in for the NBA finals or for a big football game, you need to know who the players are, right? You need to know what the stakes are. But if you're somebody like us, the three of us, you're like, hell, yes. I'm even more fired up than I already was.
- [30:02]
Bill Simmons
I swear. It used to be better. YouTube tried to cover a football game. How did that go?
- [30:07]
Brian Curtis
Oh, not so well. We got. We got Derek Carr out of the deal.
- [30:13]
Bill Simmons
Derek Carr was good. Were you surprised by that, Van?
- [30:17]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I'm surprised that he's good at anything.
- [30:19]
Bill Simmons
Derek Carr was a good studio guy.
- [30:22]
Van Lathan
Like, shocking good for him.
- [30:23]
Bill Simmons
It'll take some time, fans. Yeah. Van Dan.
- [30:26]
Van Lathan
It'll take some time. I'm happy for him. I'm happy for his family. Everything went well. It'll take some time before I'm okay with it.
- [30:32]
Bill Simmons
What do you think YouTube learned from their first YouTube experience?
- [30:35]
Brian Curtis
Well, it was weird because, you know, with Netflix, when they get to do these little one offs, they basically have their pick of any announcer, you know, so they can put, like, a cool team. It's like, what if we got, you know, Greg Olson and Noah Eagle and put them together? And you're like, yeah, that sounds good. YouTube had a weird one because every NFL announcer had a job that weekend. So they could not go around and be like, let's pick a dream team. Let's put together who we want. So they just have to find people. So I think in a way it's probably just a one off. If YouTube had more NFL and they probably will have more NFL. When the NFL tears up these contracts in 2029, I think they'll be better at it.
- [31:13]
Van Lathan
I think it was.
- [31:13]
Brian Curtis
It was just kind of weird, but it was, it was so strange. We're sitting there on a Friday night. Everybody's focused on it. Right. It's day two of the NFL season.
- [31:20]
Bill Simmons
It's kind of like in Brazil.
- [31:23]
Van Lathan
You know what I think Kay Adams.
- [31:24]
Bill Simmons
And Cam Newton in halftime.
- [31:26]
Van Lathan
I like that you like Cam. Yeah. I think Cam is making a fantastic career for himself post playing days. I think he's a lightning rod. He's not fake afraid to stick his nose in there and give an opinion. I like Cam. You know what?
- [31:40]
Bill Simmons
I thought that they should have especially interesting take.
- [31:42]
Van Lathan
I like it. I like Cam. 4th and 1. Especially Cam on 4th and 1. Especially just watching him. He's got a lot of charisma. It's going to work out. It's going to be great. You know what I think they should have? I think they should have us. Since the games are gonna go to YouTube. We know that it's gonna happen eventually. They should have it where you can call the game on YouTube like you and your friends.
- [32:05]
Bill Simmons
Oh, alternate stream from your house.
- [32:08]
Van Lathan
And then people can watch you call the game. You should be able to be. You should be able to. The NFL should have a system where they let you call the game.
- [32:16]
Bill Simmons
I think all this stuff's coming. And then I actually think we're gonna have all this in 10 years.
- [32:20]
Van Lathan
People can watch, they can go, oh, I wanna go watch. Van and Jomi called a game. And then me and Jomi called a whole game. And then we build subscribers based upon us as a little unit calling football games.
- [32:31]
Bill Simmons
I actually think that could happen.
- [32:33]
Van Lathan
Democratize it.
- [32:35]
Bill Simmons
You know, Van and I didn't. Didn't play in the NFL. Neither did you, Curtis. We're non players. Are non players qualified to discuss sports? Because that kicked up again. Is this. There's these cycles of the same stories that happen with sports media. And we've had. What is this average like once every 18 months. This happens for the last hundred years. Since it's like every 18 months.
- [32:58]
Brian Curtis
Walked into the locker room.
- [32:59]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [32:59]
Brian Curtis
And said. And the player. How could you possibly understand because you didn't play the game. I thought there were two layers to that. One is the whole, you know, you are disqualified. You don't get to have an opinion here because you couldn't possibly understand part of it, which, as you say, is like as old as time. But then, if I may infer a little bit, there's the. There's only so many reps to go around at ESPN part of the equation.
- [33:24]
Van Lathan
There's something under. Underneath it.
- [33:25]
Brian Curtis
You say, well, and I don't know that I haven't talked to Ryan Clark about that. But here comes this guy, new guy, who's Peter Schrader, who starts in the spring, my friend. And you're like, oh, he's getting run on. Get up first take.
- [33:37]
Bill Simmons
Shiny new toy, Right? He's getting on some shows.
- [33:40]
Van Lathan
Yeah. So I'll say this in. And this is the question, if anybody cares to ask. We've seen this go back and forth. Like when JJ was on First Take, he never outright said this, but he did carry himself a lot of times with the air of, let me tell you what happened and how the game was actually played.
- [34:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, right. And you see, guys, I understand this better than you because I played.
- [34:07]
Van Lathan
There's got to be a level where that's true. Right.
- [34:10]
Bill Simmons
By the way, that is 100% true.
- [34:13]
Van Lathan
Maybe not in the way that Ryan expressed it to Peter right there, but at some point, the players are on these shows because they actually did it. I remember one time, Kevin Durant, who is notoriously. He's notoriously. He doesn't talk a lot to people on social media. He doesn't really use it that much, but that's a joke. But he actually said something that was very.
- [34:37]
Bill Simmons
It took me a second.
- [34:38]
Van Lathan
He said something that was very funny on social media. He was like, you shouldn't be. If I can't. If you can't hit seven elbow jumpers in a row, you should not be able to talk basketball with me. And that seems like a dick thing to say.
- [34:51]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [34:52]
Van Lathan
But I. On a level, I get it. Like, on a level, I do kind of understand someone saying that. If you gonna tell me what I need to be doing in the game and how I need to be moving the ball and getting to my spot, shouldn't you have, at certain some point, in some way, either had enough skin in the game covering it over the course of decades, or have done it yourself?
- [35:16]
Bill Simmons
I had this when. The year that I did TV with Magic Johnson, where we'd be arguing, like you and I would argue, but at some point, he's Magic Johnson and he's just. At some point, I probably lose if we're diametrically opposed on an argument, because he's just going to know more about basketball than. But I think the thing you can do is do as much homework as you can, be prepared, come up with ideas and takes. What I didn't like about what Ryan did, and I don't know him. You know him. Yeah, he's a good guy. When you're on live TV with people, there's a nakedness to that. You really have to trust everybody you're with. And I've been in situations where you completely trust the people you're with, and it's great. And I've been in situations where I did not trust at least one of the people I was with. And it sucks, because if somebody tries to flip something on you or make you look bad in some way or screw you up on live tv, and either they're doing it intentionally or unwittingly, intentionally is worse. It's just fucked up. And I felt like that moment, whether Ryan intended to do that or not, he was doing it in a way to make. Put Peter on his heels on live tv. And live TV is a we thing. It's not a zero sum game. Like, you're on a show, everybody's gotta win if you're doing this show. And once you bring that element into it, I think it's really hard to put that genie back in the bottle. That was my take. I'd like. And he apologized for it, and he obviously knows, like, hey, man, that's not where I want to be when I'm doing television.
- [36:50]
Van Lathan
Let me tell you what. Another thing that I'm kind of about, and obviously it's something that's regrettable. And he regretted it. He apologized for it. You know what else I'm about? Cause I'm this toxic. I'm about just sometimes having the fucked up interaction, right? I'm for actually, hey, I said the wrong thing. I did the wrong thing. Cause in that same. What people don't talk about was Peter defending himself on live tv. He said, yo, don't belittle me like that, right?
- [37:21]
Bill Simmons
Which I loved. I think he had to do it.
- [37:23]
Van Lathan
So in that situation, we could all say, hey, that's not what we would want to do to one another, but I don't mind making the mistake and getting up right to the level of what's appropriate and being able to set that boundary with a coworker. I think the real thing is, do you leave with more respect for that person?
- [37:42]
Bill Simmons
And that was the issue.
- [37:42]
Van Lathan
And that's the. Do you leave with more respect for that person and an understanding of why you shouldn't do something like that or why it's not good for the viewers to see it.
- [37:50]
Bill Simmons
It was the. And the thing is, Curtis, like, I actually thought what Ryan was trying to say was pretty interesting. He was basically like, I see your point. Here's why you're wrong. And I'm just saying this as somebody. Like, there was a way he could have said it was like, I'm just saying this to somebody who played. I don't care if I had a good game, if I made the play that fucked up the game for my team, that's all I would think about that night. And none of this other stuff would matter. It's just the way he said it. But I actually thought it was a really interesting point.
- [38:17]
Brian Curtis
You know what it reminded me of? Remember when Lamar Jackson and the Ravens lost the Bills in the playoffs last year and every smart football person you know got on Twitter and like, this is not Lamar Jackson's fault. This is not. It's Mark Andrews fault. It's not his fault. And then if you actually listen to Lamar Jackson in his press conference, he was like, I didn't play well enough to win today.
- [38:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [38:36]
Brian Curtis
Like, he wasn't thinking like that. He didn't want football nerds to be like, no, no, we're defending.
- [38:41]
Bill Simmons
Like, he's.
- [38:42]
Brian Curtis
He had a very personal reaction to the game. And I think that's what Ryan was actually trying to say.
- [38:45]
Bill Simmons
Right, right.
- [38:46]
Brian Curtis
CD LA balled out for 95% of the game, but he didn't for the last 5%. He's not going home. Looking at his stats, being like, I did great today, you know, but.
- [38:54]
Bill Simmons
But again, I was other baggage coming into it. That had nothing to do with what they were talking about. It felt.
- [38:59]
Brian Curtis
Yeah, yeah. It's TV to Vance point. I think if it was a podcast, you would actually just lean into that interaction, be like, wait, let's talk about this for the next.
- [39:08]
Bill Simmons
You're not throwing in a commercial.
- [39:09]
Van Lathan
It's a good point.
- [39:09]
Bill Simmons
Well, and also, Mike Greenberg did nothing. He just sat there like the. The host should actually be like, whoa, whoa, wait a second, guys, let's rein this in. And you know, you're.
- [39:19]
Van Lathan
It's funny. I do live TV every now and again. I go on cnn. Bill loves to see me on cnn.
- [39:25]
Bill Simmons
He drives me crazy.
- [39:26]
Van Lathan
He loves it when I go on cnn. I do, too.
- [39:28]
Brian Curtis
Abby. Phillip, man, that's a great show.
- [39:30]
Van Lathan
See, look at that. Look what it's doing for me.
- [39:32]
Bill Simmons
Don't encourage so.
- [39:34]
Van Lathan
But and there is a very delicate dance that you're doing with people. Even at that table where we all have these opposing political points and points of view. There's still a way that you want to make sure you don't cut people off too much. You don't want to come across yelling at someone. There's still. We're on TV right now, so let's try not to make each other look bad. We can try to make each other look stupid because we're throwing out intellectual points. But now let's not bully each other and make everyone.
- [40:06]
Bill Simmons
Or undermine. It's so easy to undermine somebody when you're doing any kind of show with them. Right? You can undermine somebody's point in all these subtle ways. You can do it with how you're sitting, what your demeanor is. No selling. It's like we always talk. It's like professional wrestling. You're doing your move, your pile driver on me. I'm going to act like it hurt and then I do a move. You're going to act like it hurt. And that's how you do it. And some people on tv, especially now as like, the louder and louder you get on tv, the more people notice you. The professional wrestling selling part seems to be going out the window a little bit. And it's something I think Stephen A. Is still really good at when he's with the right people. Like when he's with Mad Dog, he sells the shit out of Mad Dog. That whole thing. It's like really fun to watch because he gets it. And that's why Stephen A. Is really good at what he does. PTI is another one. Coinheiser, the best person I've ever done TV with. They just resigned for three more years. Coynheiser is technically contractually signed to do PTI until he's 80 years old. Wow. And this show started, I think, what, 2002, Brian?
- [41:15]
Brian Curtis
2001.
- [41:16]
Bill Simmons
2001. It makes really no sense with anything else at ESPN at this point. It's on for a half hour. I don't even know who leads it in. It just seems like it's going to go on forever. They'll never cancel it. It's those guys show. They should be the ones who decide whether it goes away or not. And Coyneiser's for 10 years has been like, I'm too old. I called him today to make fun of him. I'm too old. I look like a Muppet. I shouldn't be on TV anymore. He'll never leave that show. That show will Go on forever. But what was your reaction when you heard it was coming back?
- [41:48]
Brian Curtis
I think the reason we're happy it's coming back is because it's one of the last links to old espn. Yeah, that company's changed so much over the last couple years, and I think you can argue for the better they had to change. You know, the world's changing, like, so rapidly. The whole media world. But you look back, it's like it's 2001.
- [42:08]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [42:08]
Brian Curtis
That's what old ESPN counts as now. Not the 90s, not the 80s. 2001. And you know what else? Maybe Berman doing primetime in the form it's in now. Dicky V. Still around. Like, what are the other links to that world?
- [42:22]
Bill Simmons
2001 was when I got to ESPN. It's 2001. People who were born the year that show existed are now getting married and having kids.
- [42:32]
Van Lathan
Yeah, a little early. They need to go out and experience life more. But, yeah, they could.
- [42:38]
Bill Simmons
Good advice.
- [42:41]
Van Lathan
But, you know, I look back at PTI or I look at PTI. PTI is the best version of the Sports 2 man, because the Sports 2 man went from PTI and then it went to First Take. And First Take is a groundbreaking show. Particularly the iteration of First Take that I'm talking about is Skip and Stephen A. It's a groundbreaking show. But we have to be honest about First Take. Insofar as First Take is a show that you can make an argument broke sports media in a way, because it took. It changed discussion from having a take. And it.
- [43:26]
Bill Simmons
The slogan was literally, embrace debate, Embrace debate. And people hated it for years.
- [43:31]
Van Lathan
When you are always doing that, it becomes not the ethos of your show, it becomes the shtick of your show. Sometimes Kornheiser and Wilbond, they have completely awesome conversations about things that they agree on, about things that they are. Sometimes they're going against each other, but sometimes they're just yes and ing each other. And it's in the curation of the topics and the actual them opining on sports culture that is the interesting thing. It's not the fight itself.
- [44:02]
Bill Simmons
Well, you know what's interesting about what you just said? They've earned that because, you know, they'll also disagree if it's time to disagree.
- [44:07]
Van Lathan
When it's time to disagree.
- [44:08]
Bill Simmons
So when they agree, it's almost like with Siskel and Ibrohim, where you're like, oh, yeah, these guys both like this movie. They're not gonna, like, try to take. Try to zag against each other. I still think It's a really good show. I think it's the most important thing anyone created this decade or this century. From a sports standpoint, it certainly is the most ripped off of any show. Right. I mean, there's nothing. I don't think there's anything that comes close.
- [44:34]
Brian Curtis
You have to go back to 2001. Like, we're all kind of in the same business now in the media. We're all in the tv, audio, right? It was one business back then. It was not one business. It was writer or television. And all of a sudden, those two guys go do tv. And everybody who's in writing took us a while, but everybody's in writing's. Like, I could do something like that. That looks appealing to me. That looks like a version of what I would be talking about in the Washington Post newsroom or talking about at home with one of my best friends. And I think that's still the magic of PTIs. You can still look at it be like, man, if I had a show like that, that would be the most fun thing in the world.
- [45:10]
Bill Simmons
I think all roads lead from Mike and the Mad Dog and pti. For all the shit that everybody is doing with sports now, it's like, whatever. Even, like, what we're doing right now, whatever that is of, like, I'm hanging out with somebody I like, and we're arguing about shit. It starts with that, with Mike and the Mad Dog and pti. And PTI was way more structured and better and, like, tighter. Here are my opinions. They'll go back and forth. The format was just perfect. People could step in and host it for them, but it was never quite the same if they weren't on it. And I don't know. I always called them my uncles, but they're just like the two of them together. I still get a fucking kick out of it. And it doesn't make sense because it's almost 25 years of. You would think you would even get tired of hearing your two uncles argue about sports after a while, right?
- [45:58]
Van Lathan
Well, now they're almost the only game in town doing it that way. So if you want what they do, you kind of have to go to them for it. So it's almost made them more valuable in a way now than even they were. Cause, you know, at some point, espn, it flipped. I remember PTI came out and PTI was this gigantic deal hit from the beginning, but then at some point, it flipped. At some point, you know, the cold pizza. Remember when it was cold pizza? And all of these shows, they come along and PTI becomes more like the consistent show there. Well, now it's. A lot of these shows are going away. These personalities have changed, and it exists, and it's still kind of the only place you can get what it is that they're doing. So it's even more special.
- [46:41]
Bill Simmons
Did you believe Burke Magnus when he said the show lasts as long as they want to do it? I wonder, once they don't want to do it, does the show still exist?
- [46:52]
Brian Curtis
I believe him when he says as long as they want to do it, because I think they're in that handful of people that's legitimate at ESPN who have the lifetime contract. Vamp had it. Dick Vital had it. Lee Corso had it. When they walk, they. They walk away when they want to walk away. Yeah, it's a really tiny list. As you know, most people don't leave ESPN under their own power.
- [47:12]
Bill Simmons
I didn't crack it.
- [47:14]
Van Lathan
But I was about to go there. You beat me.
- [47:17]
Brian Curtis
Do you want PTI to exist post?
- [47:19]
Bill Simmons
No. Tony and Mike, I think it shows. No, the show should leave just like inside the NBA like they are the show. You can put other people in it and guest host it, but it's not the same.
- [47:32]
Van Lathan
Is there anyone out there, anybody out there right now that you could see filling in for those two guys?
- [47:38]
Bill Simmons
Just create a different show. Just make it something slightly different and do it that way and keep most of the elements you like. That show should end with them and they shouldn't. I don't know. That's how I feel. But we'll see how it goes. Anyway, Tony's going to be doing it till he's 80. How old was Cosell when he lost his mind? In the mid-80s? Like mid-60s?
- [48:00]
Brian Curtis
Yeah. I don't think he was that old. People looked older in those days.
- [48:04]
Bill Simmons
I'm excited for Tony to start getting a little, like, gamey on the air. What'd be the next step? Be like, whoa, Uncle Tony, let it fly. You know, Rebel struggling to fly at the table.
- [48:17]
Van Lathan
But, I mean, it's not like he hasn't gone to the edge of controversy before.
- [48:21]
Bill Simmons
No, he's.
- [48:22]
Van Lathan
It's happened.
- [48:23]
Bill Simmons
He's not afraid.
- [48:24]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [48:25]
Bill Simmons
All right, Curtis. Anything else we have to cover? Are we good?
- [48:28]
Brian Curtis
I think we're good.
- [48:28]
Bill Simmons
We did it. It's great to see you, as always. Curtis and I, this is our 15th year working together.
- [48:34]
Van Lathan
That's insane.
- [48:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, 15th year.
- [48:36]
Van Lathan
We're going back to Grantland.
- [48:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. 2000. Hired Curtis in spring of 2011. So, yeah, we're 15.
- [48:44]
Van Lathan
How has Bill changed.
- [48:47]
Brian Curtis
God, I think almost less than anybody. Yeah, I mean, like, build a person pretty stable.
- [48:51]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Well, Curtis interviewed me for the first time. What was it, 04. He did a piece on me. That was when we met.
- [49:01]
Brian Curtis
You reached out when the Red Sox book came out.
- [49:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I don't even know if that piece is on the Internet at this point.
- [49:07]
Brian Curtis
I think it is. It's called the Bard of the Red Sox.
- [49:10]
Bill Simmons
Oh, interesting. Yeah. That was how I met Curtis. And then always kind of monitor him. And then when was thinking about Grantland, I had this list of writers and I was like, if they ever let me do this site, I have this person and this person. And he was always on that list. And now we're still working together. And he associates the press box with your guy. Joel Anderson. You share custody.
- [49:31]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I did.
- [49:32]
Bill Simmons
And with Shoemaker as well. But with Joel as well.
- [49:34]
Van Lathan
I did press box with Joel. It was fantastic. Me and Joel. You have to listen to Ringer Tailgate. Me and Joel's dynamic. Me and Joel might be the new PTI with Tate Dare as a referee.
- [49:46]
Bill Simmons
Joel is. Any worries about Joel being comfortable on the show were erased in about five minutes.
- [49:51]
Van Lathan
Done. Yeah, he's into it. He's aggressive with it.
- [49:55]
Bill Simmons
It's a great show.
- [49:56]
Brian Curtis
Oh, my God, he's the best. And I'm fortunate enough cause Joel just trolls me all day on a college football Saturday. Just texts me all this shit over and over again, especially when the Longhorns look bad. And I'm like, he's a natural for this.
- [50:07]
Bill Simmons
Guess you didn't make that thread.
- [50:08]
Van Lathan
Excuse me. I like this. Good to know that he's not just doing it to me because this is just his personality. Because the first time he shares the wealth. The three of us are on the podcast and we're all talking about college football, and Joel comes out at the end. He goes, you know what? Fuck lsu. I'm like, what? What are you talking. Why would you fuck me? Why did you say this? And now I know. Cause this is what he does on Ringer Tailgate. Now I know he does it to you too, and that makes me feel better. I thought he had some kind of problem with me. I was gonna go let the air.
- [50:37]
Brian Curtis
Out of his tires every week. He loves it.
- [50:40]
Bill Simmons
Curtis, a pleasure as always. Good to see you.
- [50:43]
Brian Curtis
Hook Embel.
- [50:45]
Bill Simmons
Hey, I'm a big fan of FanDuel's new Thursday touchdown Jackpot promo. Available every Thursday night football game. Here's how it works. Place a $5 anytime TD bet on the game using the promo PBT. In addition to the chance to win your bet, you can win a share of the 2 million in bonus bets FanDuel is giving away if your player scores the first TD or the last td. Fun things to root for if your player scores the first TDs. But 1 million in bonus bets with everyone that bets the same player. There's another $1 million jackpot for the last TD score. So I would go Tucker Kraft for both. I think he scores a touchdown in this game, just double up. Do first TD, last TD. If you can only put him on the first TD, maybe put like Terry McLaurin as the last TD, because I think the packers are going to win this one going away. Be sure to check out the TD jackpot promo for Thursday Night Football this week and each subsequent Thursday over at our friends on FanDuel sportsbook. All right, we're taping this. It is Tuesday afternoon Pacific time here with Van Lathan. We have Chris Mannix on the tv. I feel like this is like a real TV show.
- [51:49]
Van Lathan
Van yeah, bring it in, Chris.
- [51:52]
Bill Simmons
Van called for this. Van texted me last week. He said, I've been studying Crawford and Canelo nonstop, and I just want to go into it on the pod. I'm like, okay, that's fine. But first we have to talk about this Clipper scandal, which I know you've covered a bunch. Did you get up to speed on this, Fan?
- [52:08]
Van Lathan
I have.
- [52:09]
Bill Simmons
Okay, Mannix, you have been on the side of maybe this is the Massachusetts in you very suspicious of the Clippers story. I would describe you as a skeptic of the Clippers being like, how did this happen? What have you learned the last few days? And are you still as much of a skeptic?
- [52:30]
Chris Mannix
Well, my skepticism, it really flows from the idea that if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck, chances are it's a duck. And it also flows from the belief that stuff like this is not uncommon in the NBA, that we see teams doing some kind of deals that provide sweeteners to players. What. What is astonished me and what's astonished most of the league types that I've talked to is the sheer magnitude of it. The amount of money that appears to have been, well, that was given to Kawhi Leonard and may have been directed his way. I mean, $7 million per year is not nothing. I mean, I don't know what Kawhi's deal is with New Balance, but is it $7 billion per year? Like, and Kawhi's up there doing commercials For New Balance, he's wearing New Balance gear for this company. He did absolutely nothing. So I wouldn't say that I've learned anything new over the last few days. It's just that every NBA person I talk to is deeply suspicious that this is some kind of, you know, rogue outfit that on its own paid Kawhi Leonard 7 million per year to do nothing.
- [53:56]
Bill Simmons
And that's the key, Van. He didn't do anything. He didn't even do, like local ads.
- [54:02]
Van Lathan
Yeah. I guess the question is that part of it. Everyone knows, but I saw Cuban. He went on Pablo's show and they duked it out for what Pablo said was three hours. That they cut down to like an hour and 15 minutes or whatever. And the question, the central question is how much of this did Steve Ballmer and the ownership of the Clippers know? Right. There is a world where you could make up a scenario where this is Uncle Dennis going around trying to get what he's trying to get from the Raptors and then from the Clippers. But if that's not the case, then what you're saying is that all of this is taking place. Somebody runs it up to Steve Ballmer. As Steve Ballmer goes, yes, go ahead and do that. Which I could believe. But it does seem like Ballmer is going to have a lot of space between what happened and him being involved in it to say, I didn't know anything. And what is the smoking gun to prove that?
- [54:58]
Bill Simmons
Can we talk about, you know, this has been such a.
- [55:01]
Chris Mannix
Can I just one thing, like the one thing that gets. And I think Howard wrote about this on the ringer today. Like, there doesn't need to be a smoking gun for there to be punishment. Like they're. You don't. This is not a court of law where they have to have an email from Steve Ballmer that gives like the thumbs up emoji to go and do this underhanded deal between Kawhi and Aspiration. The NBA just has to believe it. There has to be enough circumstantial evidence for the NBA to believe something like this out. I think that needs to be taken to account. This is what I've been hearing from. From execs being like, it, Look, I think Adam Silver would love to have that smoking gun. Remember the Minnesota situation? There was the smoking gun. There were actual emails between the two agents.
- [55:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [55:44]
Chris Mannix
That. It was all down on paper. But as much as Adam would like to have that, he doesn't need that to bring the hand of God down on the Clippers.
- [55:52]
Van Lathan
Can I say something real quick just to that? So let's say he doesn't have it. Think about how destabilizing it's going to be to enact a punishment against the Clippers. It's almost. To me, it seems as if you didn't have that smoking gun, you'd almost want to punt on it. Because the hand of God that comes down on the Clippers for engaging in this type of malfeasance would have to be so severe that if you don't have the smoking gun, would you even want to do that based upon circumstantial evidence?
- [56:26]
Chris Mannix
I don't know that this league officer is going to have the appetite for it because especially with the All Star.
- [56:33]
Bill Simmons
Game coming in February.
- [56:36]
Chris Mannix
A lot of variables. I don't know if this league office is going to have the appetite for it, but man, use the word destabilizing. How destabilizing though is it to do nothing? Like theoretically, there are people that wholeheartedly believe that the Clippers skirted ironclad rules. And if they did, look what they were able to do with it. Number one, they were taking some money out of owner's pockets because if they had paid Kawhi the full max the second time around, then that would have added to their tax burden, which would have meant more money flowing out of the LA Clippers. They also were able to do things, you know, cap wise or signing players wise, like guys zero to pick up because they had more flexibility. So I would turn it back to you on this ban. Like how destabilizing it would it be for a league to have the richest owner in the NBA allegedly theoretically just flop the rules in order to keep some money in his pocket, but more importantly, be able to build the kind of team he wanted to.
- [57:36]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I mean, there seems to be common knowledge that everybody's doing this. Like I haven't heard about it on this level.
- [57:42]
Bill Simmons
Not at the number that's not at this number.
- [57:44]
Van Lathan
So, so this is. So, so this is what I'll say. I definitely believe. I don't think there's any way. And it was interesting to hear Cuban and Pablo go back and forth because Cuban almost seemed like he was defending his own reputation. Like, these are my guys. Like remember blue chips?
- [57:58]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [57:59]
Van Lathan
Tony's my guy. My guy.
- [58:01]
Bill Simmons
He wouldn't do that. He wouldn't do that.
- [58:03]
Van Lathan
He wouldn't do that. Tough ass kid from Chicago. That's what Cuban was doing. It seems to me very unlikely that Steve Ballmer didn't know about this, it seems impossible, right, that he didn't, that he didn't have any announcements.
- [58:14]
Bill Simmons
Chris made the big point though. The suspension or whatever can happen. Losing draft picks, voiding the contract, whatever it is. This is basically the OJ Civil trial versus the OJ Trial. You only need to kind of think something happened and have enough evidence to be like, I think that happened. So we're doing this.
- [58:33]
Van Lathan
The question is how much.
- [58:34]
Bill Simmons
This isn't an actual trial where like we are proving this indisputably that you did this. I don't think they have to do that for the lead to crack down and be like, dude, something smells with this. You gave 50 million of these guys, he's getting 28 million to do nothing. Like you can say there's no smoking gun, but something happened here and we're punishing you. And I think that's how this plays out.
- [58:56]
Chris Mannix
It's the 28 million and it's the nothing. Like if he had just gone out there and done one of those stupid H E B commercials that the spurs did back in the day, or if he had posted once a year about his love for eliminating the carbon footprint, we would not be having this particular conversation. I think it comes down to, to it either has to be a Timberwolves like hand of God punishment because they believe that the Clippers circumvented the cap, or it's got to be nothing. They cannot find a middle ground. There can't be like, okay, we're going to document.
- [59:28]
Bill Simmons
I disagree. I think they can still punish them for some piece of second round pick. No, I think it's somewhere between Joe Smith and Nothing would be my guess on this. It's too clean.
- [59:40]
Chris Mannix
Closer to Joe Smith though, to me.
- [59:41]
Van Lathan
But if they do that, then it's like them trying to say that you can get a little bit pregnant, right? Because either you did it and if you did it, it's such a shot at the competitive balance in the league.
- [59:54]
Bill Simmons
Can you imagine them not doing anything now?
- [59:56]
Van Lathan
Well, what I'm saying is the choice is for the league is whether or not to make this story right now, which is a huge sport, a huge sports story. The choice is whether or not to make this the biggest sports story of the decade. Which is what is, which is what.
- [60:14]
Bill Simmons
You like a Donaghy level type thing. Donahue is way worse.
- [60:16]
Van Lathan
Which is what you.
- [60:17]
Chris Mannix
Let me put it on something else. Like the one thing that Stern did well and it's always going to come back to what would Stern do? We barely going to make those It'll.
- [60:25]
Van Lathan
Be a secret two year retirement.
- [60:30]
Chris Mannix
Stern liked to make examples, right? He liked to throw at elbow. You know, in. In 2000, you know, the Timberwolves did it. He came down with the harshest punishment he possibly could. Malice in the Palace. He said to Ron Artest, you, you, you're out. You can't do this. This is the harshest punishment we could possibly come up with. Even something on a small. I remember when the spurs were like benching guys, DNP old and stuff like that. Like they handed out one of the largest fines ever for something like that. Like old NBA was willing to throw an elbow and to come down with swift punishments and severe punishments to make an example of someone. It remains to be seen whether this version of it is willing to do the same.
- [61:12]
Bill Simmons
Can we talk about how funny this story is? I know it's not supposed to be funny, but let's be honest. Nobody got hurt. Rules were broken, but it didn't help the Clippers. Nothing really happened. They've won three playoff series in six years. First of all, aspiration. That's what it's called, right? Aspiration. I've lived in LA this whole decade. They were allegedly a sponsor for Clipper games. I'd never heard of the company. I'm not saying I have to hear about everything, but it was like this. We're trying to make the environment safer, but they're somehow funneling all this money. And it's basically a Ponzi scheme. Slash, let's just try to take as much money as we can from people. Kawhi getting 28 million for four years to do nothing. And then my favorite part of this, Uncle Dennis, who was a hilarious character in 2019, we all heard these stories. It became like that Bill Brasky SNL sketch where it was like, I heard Uncle Dennis asked for a yacht and an elephant and you just never knew what was true and not true. And now Uncle Dennis is back in our lives just asking for shit. I just think, I think this is almost a funnier story than people are taking this so seriously. And it's like, yeah, if they did it, they're going to lose all these picks. But this is like crazy that they thought they could get away with this. I'm almost like in awe of how stupid this is. You know what I mean?
- [62:34]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm interested more though in the ripple effects of what a punishment could be like. If I knew the punishment was just going to be some money in a second round pick, I probably wouldn't care quite as much or be quite as invested in finding out exactly what the truth here is. But the reality is that the outcome could be, a, catastrophic for the Clippers, and B, in like, the nuclear scenario could put, like, a top 10 player on the open market to be signed by somebody if they decided to void the contract of Kawhi Leonard. So that, to me, is the most interesting angle of all this. What the. What the fallout could be if the NBA determines the Clippers did this?
- [63:12]
Bill Simmons
Is that, like, the worst thing in the world?
- [63:14]
Van Lathan
If they avoid it, though, and have him go back?
- [63:16]
Bill Simmons
I mean, they don't have to pay him $50 million a year. I don't even know if he can play 50 games. I mean, I know it's not great. They have title aspirations.
- [63:22]
Van Lathan
You're talking about it from a basketball perspective.
- [63:24]
Bill Simmons
I would say losing the draft picks would be the thing that killed me.
- [63:26]
Van Lathan
But there's also something else that's going on here, and it's like a social thing, right? Steve Ballmer's one of the richest men in the world, right? And so when you watch these interviews or watch these people talk, it seems like this is a situation where there are some people that are looking at this. It's like, shouldn't he have to follow the rules, too? Shouldn't Steve Ballmer have to follow the rules, too? There are rules that are put in place so that mega rich guys can't just go spend whatever they want on any player that they want so that there is some balance. You know, I get deeply into way too deeply into Twitter, much to the chagrin of a lot of people around here, including this guy. There you go. But there are people who went, yo, man, I just want to let you know, this Ballmer Clipper situation, this is a microcosm for our whole society when rich people feel like they could just do whatever they want and make whatever rules they want, and the rest of us just have to go along with it. So there are people that are looking this and are saying, hey, if Kawhi is on no show jobs or if he's getting no show jobs to the tune of, what is it, 50 million.
- [64:30]
Bill Simmons
$30 million, $28 million and $20 million.
- [64:32]
Van Lathan
Worthless stock to circumvent the cap. They want to see their basketball gods, like, rain their hand down on this and kind of nip it in the butt.
- [64:42]
Bill Simmons
I almost want it to be more money than it was. It's right in that middle zone of, like, the 28 million. Sure, that's great. But Kawhi was making 50 plus million a year, right? And it's. It's like, all right, a lot of.
- [64:56]
Van Lathan
Money to the rest of us.
- [64:56]
Bill Simmons
No, but you got to grease them up with extra money. But it's not worth. It's not enough money to risk, like, his reputation for the rest of his life. Ballmer being suspended with seven draft picks. It's not like he's funneling $200 million worth of stock or some crazy thing. It's like he's wetting his beak. Here's a little extra for you, Kawhi. Here's 8% extra on top of your salary that I'm going to funnel your way. So you'll stay with us. But here's one of the things I don't understand. Kawhi was hurt when this happened. He tore an acl. So why did they have to pay him beyond the salary cap to make sure he stayed on the Clippers? Where was he going? He was hurt.
- [65:35]
Chris Mannix
Well, I'm not focused on that first contract. I'm more focused on the second contract.
- [65:41]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's what I mean.
- [65:42]
Chris Mannix
Three year. Well, that was less than max. Was he hurt then, like, three. Yeah, he was hurt three years ago.
- [65:47]
Bill Simmons
And it was less than max.
- [65:48]
Chris Mannix
But it was hurt so many times. It was very less than max. But what. But what does that less than max allow them to do, Bill? Like, what did that less than Mac did that open up? Avenues for them to do certain things?
- [65:58]
Bill Simmons
Got them Russell Westbrook, who helped them lose in round one. I mean, it didn't really.
- [66:02]
Chris Mannix
I'm not saying their decisions.
- [66:04]
Van Lathan
I think the story is funny.
- [66:05]
Bill Simmons
Like, first of all, if they did do it this way, where they're like, hey, Uncle Dennis wants more money. Bomber's like, all right, let's use that aspiration, that weird tree site. We'll all give them money and just have them give half of it to Uncle Dennis, and then nobody will find out. This fucking random company. What's the worst thing that could happen? Oh, nothing. This will never come out. I just think this is so stupid that that would be a. Would actually happen. And yet it might be what actually happened.
- [66:34]
Van Lathan
The funniest thing about the story to me is the two people that could give a shit less about any of this are Uncle Dennis and Kawhi.
- [66:43]
Bill Simmons
Oh, yeah.
- [66:44]
Van Lathan
I would be so surprised if Kawhi Leonard's heart rate or blood pressure went up one beat or one point.
- [66:52]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Is he gonna apologize to his fans?
- [66:55]
Van Lathan
None of this.
- [66:55]
Bill Simmons
I'd like to apologize to all the Kawhi. Nah, Kawhi believers out there, I'm sorry.
- [67:01]
Van Lathan
He'S the one in the middle of this. It's all about and over him. And I can guarantee you he couldn't give a shit about any of this that's happening. In the worst case scenario, if he is back on the free agent market, him and Uncle Dennis get to go to another team and ask to be environmentalists somewhere else.
- [67:22]
Bill Simmons
Maybe he could go to another city and he could teach him about climate change, help him clean up some it.
- [67:26]
Chris Mannix
Well, do, do you even blame Kawhi?
- [67:28]
Van Lathan
No.
- [67:29]
Chris Mannix
In these circumstance, no. Because guys ask for stuff all the time. Like that's been something that I've had converse even just a couple hours ago with the gm. Like guys ask for things constantly. It's like if, it's almost the analogy would be like if you have like a young, you have a young kid who is up at 10 o' clock at night, says, hey, can I get a candy bar? Right? I want to go, I want a Snickers bar before bed. You don't blame the kid for eating it, you get blamed for giving it to him. Right? Like the kid. It's the kid's job to ask. It's almost, it's Kawhi's job, It's even frankly, Uncle Dennis job to ask for as much as you can possibly get. It's the general manager's job, the owner's job to say no. And if there's a possibility, at least that they didn't say no.
- [68:13]
Bill Simmons
Mannix, how many if, what's, what's the over under players, owners and front office executives who are sweating fucking bullets this last week with all the chicanery that happens in this league and all the, yeah, use our team plane to go to wherever and then just make sure you bring it back. And oh yeah, your buddies, you guys want to go to Vegas, take the plane. Oh, here's this, oh, here's this little endorsement thing. Like there's has to be people sweating bullets.
- [68:42]
Chris Mannix
Look, if over the last 10, 15 years your star player took less money, you know that if the Clippers get punished, you're going to wind up in somebody's crosshairs. You're going to wind up, you could wind up being investigated. Look, that's the humorous thing to me about the Cuban defense and I have no knowledge of what was going on with his teams. But like, you know who in the history in the last 20 years has taken less money to stay with a team than Dirk Nowitzki did years ago? Like, I mean it was a. It was a huge.
- [69:17]
Bill Simmons
I did this podcast when Dirk had that documentary and Cuban's company bought it. And I would made multiple jokes on multiple pods about how he spent, like Iron man level money on the Dirk Doc. Here's 48 million for your diet. Like, who knows what he spent? But it was technically legal. Whatever he spent. Right. Magnolia buys the dock.
- [69:36]
Chris Mannix
Sure. There's just a lot. There's a lot of things that you can do that maybe don't necessarily pass the smell test. So I think that.
- [69:44]
Bill Simmons
Season tickets. How about, like the guys, the best friend of the guy who's always sitting courtside. I wonder how he got those tickets. Or that's the suite. Or just whatever. Like, what do people think happens?
- [69:56]
Chris Mannix
Look, it's. They think this stuff happens. It's just. This would be $28 million. Well, this would be. Again, that's the big thing. The number. The number. And the fact that he did nothing. That. That keeps coming up. The fact, you know, that's stuff like this. Like, you remember the DeAndre Jordan stuff from 10 years ago, that was like 200 or 200 grand or something like that. Some kind of endorsement deal that the NBA caught them trying to do. Like, those kind of things I'm sure happen on a regular basis here. Borrow my jet here. Stay at my private estate in Aspen. Whatever. Whatever that may be. $28 million is a number that people can't seem to come off of.
- [70:31]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then the other thing that's funny is Bomber's defense is basically, I have a bunch of idiots working for me, and I guess I didn't fully realize. Yeah. And I got scammed and I have a bunch of dumbasses. That's. That's your defense?
- [70:47]
Van Lathan
The funniest part to me is imagining, just like you remember the Sopranos episode where they're all sitting around, all the mobsters are sitting around, and Finn walks up and they tell him, finn, sit down. You don't have to do anything.
- [70:58]
Bill Simmons
Oh, yeah. Hanging out. You know what I mean?
- [71:00]
Van Lathan
Before he gets sexually harassed by one of the capos in the family. And just imagining Kawhi in that situation. Kawhi essentially a part of illegal by the NBA standards scheme. No show job. He's a part of the scheme. He's a part of the racket. That's hysterical to me. That's funny to me.
- [71:20]
Bill Simmons
Well, how about aspiration? Nobody at any point during any of the meetings is like, I mean, he's gotta film a commercial for us, right? No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. Just make sure the check clears. Uncle Dennis. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they didn't even try to fake some sort of like. Like the flower shop in the town. It's like, yeah, Kawhi opened a flower store. Kawhi opened a karaoke place in Koreatown. Like, none of that.
- [71:45]
Van Lathan
It's lazy. All he would have had to have done, so lazy, was take one flight, build one basketball court. I'm Kauai landed for. All he would have had to do is one thing. And it had been like, he earned the money.
- [71:57]
Bill Simmons
And the fact that it's Tampa.
- [72:00]
Chris Mannix
I think you're even overestimating what he would have had to do. Just tweet one time, like a season, like, give yourself some plausible deniability here. Like that. That is one area where it looks like, if it plays out like it looks like that Kawhi might have screwed the Clippers over there by not doing literally anything for this company and having a contract that spells out that you don't have to do anything. Like, it's just. It's so implausible to believe that this is not what it looks like.
- [72:29]
Bill Simmons
So the only case that I could come up with for Ballmer, and I think Michael Rosenberg at Sports Illustrated made some variation of this, but basically, this place is trying to hustle Ballmer. They're trying to get as much money out of him as possible, and they think if we just give Kawhi this huge thing, that'll tie Ballmer to us even more. He's already given us 50 million. We'll give 28 back to Kawhi, and maybe we'll be able to get like, 300 million from Ballmer. And this was like some sort of long play, Ponzi scheme thing. I was like, all right, I test drove that for a couple minutes, and I was like, that's interesting. But it doesn't add up to him not doing any work whatsoever for $28 million. I just can't figure it out.
- [73:11]
Van Lathan
The thing that makes the most sense, which is always how these things are litigated in people's minds. I don't know. The investigation that the NBA will do will have all these different steps, but the thing that makes the most sense is that Steve Ballmers and the Clippers tried to go around the salary cap to pay Kawhi Leonard more money. That's the thing that makes the most sense.
- [73:31]
Bill Simmons
Well, it's like that Amy Bradley, where she falls off the cruise ship, that Netflix thing, and there's like, 17 theories of what happened it's like. Or maybe she just fell off the cruise ship. And that might have been what the answer was. Well, we'll find out. I have reached the. I think a lot of this has been pretty funny. Like even, even ESPN yesterday they were talking about it and they were going through all the sponsors that like Joel Embiid. Well, He, I think McManaman was doing it. Joel Embiid, the team had to deal with this. And Joel McD, he also did a thing. It's like, no, but none of those people were making $28 million to do nothing from a team sponsor.
- [74:04]
Chris Mannix
Something. That's the whole thing. Like Jason Tatum's got a deal with the Celtics sponsor. Like he's in all these commercials. Like they're all doing something. It comes back to the fact that he did absolutely nothing and got paid $7 million per year. That. I don't know how you explain that away. That to me is going to be the hardest part.
- [74:20]
Van Lathan
You're saying that Tatum's involved in something. Hey, no, Pablo, make some calls. That's what I want to say.
- [74:28]
Bill Simmons
That's a war with me and Pablo.
- [74:30]
Van Lathan
I want to see part two.
- [74:32]
Bill Simmons
If he goes after Tatum.
- [74:33]
Van Lathan
I want to see. I want to see. That's the franchise that we really need to be keeping our eye on.
- [74:38]
Bill Simmons
No, that's not true.
- [74:39]
Chris Mannix
That regularly appears, regularly appears on NBC Sports Boston. There are lots of Tatum commercials doing that stuff. So he's, he's providing services, he's putting in time.
- [74:48]
Bill Simmons
All right, we're taking a break and then let's talk about the fight. And now it's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. I know technically there's no such thing as too much NFL, but 1pm on a Sunday ET, 10am in the morning on the, on the Pacific coast here you're flipping through the channels, you're trying to follow these games. You don't need to do it that way. It's the whole reason NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV is basically must have from September to January because of multi view. But we'll get to that. It's the only way to impose order on the chaos. Get every game, every Sunday all in one place with features that help you stay on top of all the NFL action. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday Ticket for out of market games. Exclude digital and games and commercial use terms. Embargo supply, no refunds. Okay, so we have week two. We have nine early games as we call it out. Here because it comes out at 10 and I'm going to give you the four to put on your multi view. I think Jacksonville, Cincinnati weirdly is a must. Cincinnati's offense needs to get going. Jacksonville's offense might have a chance to get going against Cincy's defense. I'm in on that one. I'm in on Chicago, Detroit. What are we getting from Caleb? Two on one teams. Whoever loses that game is in a lot of trouble. I think I'm in on Buffalo and the Jets. The jets look good last week. Buffalo obviously coming off an amazing game. And then last but not least, Seattle, Pittsburgh, two teams that I think both have a chance to be playoff teams. Seattle probably not if they lose this game. Notice how I didn't put the Pats in Miami in there because I'm an honorable guy and it's not one of the best four games. Sorry, sorry Pats fans. Just remember with NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV 1:00pm should be the best part of your Sunday. You're in the driver's seat. Pick every game, every Sunday all in one place. Control that chaos. Trust me on the multi view for a limited time only. Get $36 off NFL Sunday Ticket using BS36 at checkout. New users only while supplies last ends 9:22 Go to YouTube.com BS to sign up now. Local and national games on YouTube TV NFL send a ticket for out of market games. Excludes digital only games and commercial use. Device and content restrictions apply. Terms and embargoes apply. No refunds. All right, Canelo Crawford. Van texted me last week and he's like, I gotta talk about this fight on your pod. You've only invited yourself on the pod like three times. Yeah. And you're like, I'm watching these clips. I have real takes. And I was like, well, I'm going to talk to Mannix about it. So we'll do it, the three of us. I'm going to start here the biggest fights of the 21st century. Which I was like, oh, I'll be able to rattle these off. If I go back to when I love boxing in the 70s and 80s, I could just rattle off all the biggest fights. Instinctively. The 21st century gets a little bit hazier. I felt like Mayweather Canelo was like a, like a big fight.
- [77:46]
Van Lathan
Mayweather De La Hoya.
- [77:47]
Bill Simmons
I mean Mayweather De La Hoya. I'm sorry, Mayweather De La Hoya was big fight. The kind of press that like Hagler Leonard or Hearns Leonard or the kind of fights from the 80s we've had some heavyweight stuff. Tyson Lewis was big. But from an interest standpoint and a legacy standpoint, this might be the most interesting of the last 25 years. And I don't know if I'm in the minority on that, but that there's so many ways this could go and yet I don't feel like anyone's talking about it.
- [78:19]
Chris Mannix
I don't. I wouldn't say it's the most interesting. Like, top of my head, like, my list of. Let's hear Roy Jones. John Ruiz was, I think, in 03. That was.
- [78:28]
Bill Simmons
Oh, and he moved way up.
- [78:29]
Chris Mannix
He moved to heavyweight, way up to fight at heavyweight.
- [78:31]
Bill Simmons
But Ruiz wasn't like George Foreman, you know.
- [78:35]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, but that had never been done, I think, at that time before. Like, that was like the real test of Roy's greatness. I remember buying that on pay per view back in the day. And, uh, Dela Hoya, Mayweather, of course, Dela Hoya, Pacquiao, not quite on that level, but it was still pretty big. Dela Hoya or. Sorry, Mayweather, Canelo was big. And then the biggest is Mayweather Pacquiao. Like, that was the. Was a cultural event. I mean, that had. You had cnn. That was there. You had cnn, espn, the New York Times. Everybody that covered sports, even on a nominal basis, was. Was there covering that. This is. This is up there in terms of marketability because you have two very different fan bases and you have the Netflix fire hose involved, which is going to lead to the biggest viewership number that any traditional boxing match has ever seen. But it's on a very short list of the biggest fights of the 21st century.
- [79:22]
Bill Simmons
You know, one thing I love about it, it's a good fight to argue about.
- [79:26]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [79:27]
Bill Simmons
Where you could really make strong cases for each side and you could. Like. I still don't know who I'm betting on. I have a sense of. But I could still be swayed. Four days in.
- [79:39]
Van Lathan
It's a fight, to me, where the traditional wisdom and the boxing knowledge. The traditional boxing wisdom and the boxing knowledge. Hardcore are like butting heads. The traditional wisdom says the bigger skilled man wins this fight if you're jumping up two weights, and that's Canelo Alvarez. However, most of the hardcore boxing people are so amazed at the skill and toughness of. Of Terence Crawford that they really feel like he can beat this version of Canelo Alvarez. They really feel like he can beat.
- [80:10]
Bill Simmons
That's the key thing. This version of Canelo Alvarez. Right.
- [80:13]
Van Lathan
And that's the tension in the fight, I guess, for Me, it's also an interesting fight because it's a fight between two guys that are all time greats in their sport. But in my opinion, and maybe I'm wrong about Canelo Alvarez, it seems like they failed to become all time cultural pop culture greats at.
- [80:34]
Bill Simmons
Do you know why that happened? Because neither of them really had the awesome fight. Like Leonard had the Hearns fight. Right. And he also had the two Duran fights. And by the time he got to 1982, he felt like you still have to have like the memorable something. Even in the NBA, you still like Bird and Magic needed the 84 finals to elevate. Like, if you ask somebody like what's. What's the most amazing Canelo fight, they list stuff, but it's. It's not something like you would be watching 50 years from now.
- [81:05]
Van Lathan
Crawford has that fight.
- [81:06]
Bill Simmons
He's been. Crawford has that fight. Crawford's just Crawford killing Spence.
- [81:11]
Van Lathan
Yeah, that's one of the top and evisceration I've ever seen before.
- [81:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [81:15]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [81:15]
Bill Simmons
But Canelo doesn't. Do you think he has a fight like that?
- [81:18]
Chris Mannix
I'd argue that the second Golovkin fight was up there. Um, I think most people believe Golovkin was going. You know, most people believe Golovkin won the first fight, he was going to win the second fight. And then Canelo not only won, but the way that he won, taking the fight to Golovkin, who at that time was the predator at 160, was at or near the peak of his powers. It was such a long time ago. Now, what was it, six years ago, seven years ago at this point that we. That we kind of forget The. The Crawford stuff is interesting to me because I think a lot of people are looking intently at Canelo Alvarez's last fight, which was lackluster. I was there in Saudi Arabia for that fight. But they're not looking as intently at Crawford's last fight. And look, you bring up Spence fan, and that was awesome. But that was two fights earlier. That was at 147lbs when Terence Crawford made the jump to 154. Mathematically he was life and death with Israel Madrimov. Israel Madrimov is a good fighter, but I encourage people to look at the statistics of Terence Crawford as a welterweight versus the statistics that he had at 154. The one fight he had there at welterweight, he was a volume power puncher. He was a guy that hunted you down against Madrimov. The number of right hands he threw dropped precipitously. The punch Output per round dropped precipitously. The landed punches per round dropped precipitously. Like he was a very different fighter at 154 against a good, solid B, B plus level opponent. Now he's jumping up two more weight classes. And look, people have done this in the past. I mean, Sugar Ray jumped up two weight classes to fight Donnie Leland.
- [83:01]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's a big.
- [83:03]
Chris Mannix
It was sort of. They did something kind of in between there. He did it for Hagler, sort of. He was kind of.
- [83:08]
Bill Simmons
Hearns jumped up two divisions.
- [83:09]
Chris Mannix
Hearns did it. Of course, Roy did it against John Ruiz. But more often than not, size ultimately matters. And look, I'm not trying to compare Terence Crawford to Jermell Charlo, but Jermell Charlo, because Terrence is a better fighter, I think. But Jermell Charlo jumped up two weight classes two years ago against Canelo and got blitzed. Didn't win a single minute of a single round, got knocked down. Now, I think Crawford can have more success, but I think it's wildly dismissive of what we saw from Crawford the last time out to not take that into account.
- [83:42]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's the other thing. He's only one fight a year for five years.
- [83:46]
Van Lathan
Yeah, he's getting older. What I would say about the Madrimoff fight and what I think some of those people would say about the Madrimoff fight is while Madrimoff is a B to B plus fighter that he does present to Crawford, who was jumping up. I thought the matchmaking was bad in that fight. As far as if you're going to move up to 54, the first fighter that you fight should not be a fighter that's as awkward and stylistically as hard to figure out as Madrimoff was. And there is a boxing part to that. Like the weight is one thing, but then when you look at the style that Madrimoff presented to Crawford, he muted a lot of his offense because I think it took Terrence a while to figure him out.
- [84:28]
Chris Mannix
Right.
- [84:28]
Van Lathan
And maybe he figures them out easier. If he can overwhelm him at 47 or one of the lighter weight classes, maybe it wouldn't have been as big a deal. But at the higher weight, with there being more on the line, more that can come back at him. I think it took him a second to kind of figure Madrimoff out. The question that a lot of people are asking is the fact that Alvarez right now is so meat and potatoes. I mean, he is now. He still has great head movement, he's still very tough, but he is a seek and destroy boxing machine. There's not gonna be a whole lot of movement from him. Like, even in the skull fight, when we talk about people's last performances, he could not cut the ring off against him, which in past versions of Canelo Alvarez would have cut the ring off against that guy and put him to death. But he seems to not be able to do that anymore. He seems to be meat and potatoes. And if Crawford shows up and the size is less of an issue for him, it seems like he would be able to fight his way to a victory. That's what I think a lot of people are thinking.
- [85:29]
Bill Simmons
You agree with that?
- [85:29]
Chris Mannix
Well, no, I. Sorry. I dare do not. The school fight had a couple things going for it. One, you had a guy that ran as much as any fighter at a championship level fight I've ever seen run.
- [85:45]
Van Lathan
It's pretty upsetting.
- [85:47]
Chris Mannix
He was on his bike from the opening bell. And could Canelo have done more to cut the ring off? Absolutely. But this guy was a Cuban trained, you know, undefeated boxer. Who fights like that? I mean, he was, he was on the move. The other variable that doesn't get talked about enough is the fact the fight was at 6am like, the fight was early in the morning in Saudi Arabia to make it prime time in the U.S. and yes, Canelo did everything he could to acclimate his body towards that type of start time, but there's only so much you can do when you're talking about getting up at midnight. He told me he got up at midnight, jumped into a cold plunge to get himself awake to get ready to go to the arena. These are all things that you don't see a fighter do ordinarily to get ready for a fight. I also think there's a lack of motivation there in fighting William School. Like Canelo, he wanted to fight Jake Paul that week. Like he had was on the one yard line with Jake Paul to do that fight on that day before Turkey, Alisheek came in with all that money and said, you got to make this fight. We want it to be undisputed. Against Terence Crawford, you got to do it. You got to do it. So I think all those played into the fact that Canelo didn't look as. As good as he did. That's a long way of saying, I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as he looked that night in Saudi Arabia. Maybe he's not the guy that was running through super middleweight between 2018 and 2000 and what, 22. But I think he's maybe 80, 85% of all that. The other part with Crawford is, and I've said this a lot about Canelo opponents. To beat Canelo Alvarez, you have to throw right hands. Look at the guys that have either beaten or were successful against him. Gennady Golovkin threw a ton of right hands. Dimitri Bivol through a ton of right hands. You cannot jab your way to success against Canelo Alvarez. Many have tried to.
- [87:33]
Van Lathan
You wouldn't say that Bevol jabbed his.
- [87:34]
Chris Mannix
Way to look at the numbers. Bevo Bolt raced him. Bevol pressured him. He was bigger, he was stronger. He was in his face. He backed him up all night long. That's what Bevo did.
- [87:45]
Van Lathan
I know, but the jab in that fight was. I can't believe I'm going back and forth with boxing with Chris Matt.
- [87:50]
Bill Simmons
I'm having a great time.
- [87:51]
Van Lathan
The jab in that fight was Bevol's to me. B Bold took a couple of rounds to really jab, use the educated lead hand to put Canelo where he wanted him to be. And then later on in the fight, when he saw that Canelo wasn't going to give him anything that he had him figured out, that's when he started opening up against Canelo Alvarez. With Crawford, I'm fully expecting him to come into this fight and fight at southpaw. Like, to me, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to come in and fight this fight orthodox. I'm full fully expecting him to fight the southpaw. So it's going to be the lead hand that we're going to see kind of whether or not he can use that to mute Canelo a little bit and whether or not he can use his feet good enough to stay away from him and maybe tire Canelo out a little bit.
- [88:39]
Chris Mannix
I think you made the point, though, that Bivol did eventually open up, right? And that that was a big reason why he came out on top of that fight. The guys I've seen jab and then not open up. Caleb Plant for the undisputed championship. Sergey Kovalev, who threw a million and one jabs that night. Buddy McGirt was like in training camp, Buddy McGirt was literally tying Kovalev's right hand to his body to make him throw jabs out there, to keep throwing it over and over again. Like, there's a belief that you can score on Canelo with the jab and you can, but I don't believe you can beat him without Throwing right hands. And the. And the Crawford that I saw against Madrimoff statistically did not throw a lot of right hands or at least nowhere near the number of right hands, or. I should forget the right hand power shots. Let's go with that. The power shots that he was throwing in. In that context, he did not throw anywhere near as many as he threw against Errol Spence. So I think that's going to be a problem if Bud comes out and tries to jab his way to success. Yeah, he'll have some moments there just like Kovalev did. Kovalev was in that fight. It was close until he got knocked out. I think he'll have some moments, but I have yet to see someone band jab their way to a victory over Canelo Alvarez, so.
- [89:48]
Van Lathan
Well, I will say this real quick. Somebody did and they robbed him. Golovkin jabbed his way to a victory over.
- [89:55]
Chris Mannix
Oh, not even that, but he was throwing rights, too.
- [89:57]
Van Lathan
But if you go back and look at the fight, he controlled that fight with the jab, like. And even the second fight, that was a bad decision. Even the second fight. I'm gonna be honest with you, man. I think Triple G won that fight.
- [90:08]
Chris Mannix
It was close.
- [90:09]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I think Triple G won that fight. But anyway, I digress.
- [90:12]
Bill Simmons
So Crawford's only gone above 147 once in the Abramov fight. Now he's jumping 21 pounds past that. I always, like, I've been watching boxing a long time, I always get nervous when the guys jump 20 pounds.
- [90:27]
Chris Mannix
Should.
- [90:28]
Bill Simmons
That just seems like a lot of weight, man. Yeah, it's just. There's a physicality that you just have net. Like, Canelo is supposed to be around the weight. Like, what's he going to come in at? Like 175, 174.
- [90:42]
Chris Mannix
He might gain £10, but he's kind.
- [90:46]
Bill Simmons
Of naturally built that way. Now, I've read all this stuff about Crawford's been gradually trying to add, and he's doing it correctly. He's not just.
- [90:53]
Van Lathan
What do you think Crawford way fight night against Madrimoff, what was it, 169?
- [91:00]
Bill Simmons
He looks slow in that fight, though. For him, I'm just.
- [91:03]
Van Lathan
By the way, this is not me saying that Crawford will be Canelo Alvarez. This is not me saying that. But what it is me saying is that, like, if Canelo was going to lose a fight of this magnitude, this would be the guy that he would lose it to. This guy is a dog. He has tremendous power. He's got skill.
- [91:27]
Bill Simmons
Well, the Spence thing The Spence thing is his resume. Because that was a violent, vindictive fight. Like, just really wanted to like snatch the guy's soul. And that's why. So one of the things I wrote down, because this reminds me of the Hagler Leonard fight. But if Crawford was both Hagler and Leonard, he's moving up. He's moving up weights, right, Like Leonard did, where it's like, oh, shit, you're going to go all the way up there. Oh, man, I'm nervous for you. But then he has the Hagworth side. He's got that kind of fuck you to him that I don't know if Canelo has. Canelo's like, he's cemented. He's one of the most famous fighters of this century. I know Crawford is in the boxing community, but my mom doesn't know who he is. I don't know if he's had his moment yet. And I wonder. I hate to do the first take the morning sports show thing because obviously the fight means more to both, but it really means more to Crawford. I think.
- [92:28]
Chris Mannix
Oh, I think this is way, way.
- [92:29]
Bill Simmons
More favor, legacy wise, everything.
- [92:33]
Chris Mannix
Way, way more. He could become the first three time undisputed men's champion in the four belt era. That would be something. And he would also, I'd argue, add the first hall of Fame fighter to his resume. You look at Canelo's resume loaded with.
- [92:50]
Bill Simmons
Hall of Fame, he's that awesome fighter.
- [92:51]
Chris Mannix
Some he won, some he's lost. Crawford, like, what's the best opponent on the resume of Crawford? It's Aerospace.
- [93:01]
Bill Simmons
Fought Sean Porter, Jeff Horn.
- [93:03]
Chris Mannix
But none of, I mean, I think you can make a case that Spence gets in the hall of Fame. It's an arguable one. I don't think it's a first.
- [93:09]
Bill Simmons
But do you feel like Spence was damaged goods in that fight?
- [93:11]
Chris Mannix
I did, I did. But that, that takes nothing away. I don't want to take away from Crawford there because, you know, he tried to make that fight for years. He tried forever to make that fight happen.
- [93:19]
Van Lathan
Well, and a lot of the guys that you were, that in terms of like at 47, a lot of those guys were with Heyman and them. And like he had problems like getting to those fights. So it's. But I also say this, man. So Canelo's hall of Famers, we would say are Miguel Cotto, we would say they're Sergey Kovalev, we would say that they're Triple G. All of these fighters, I could look at all of them.
- [93:42]
Chris Mannix
Lara. They maybe, yeah, maybe well, if Lara's.
- [93:46]
Van Lathan
A Hall of Famer, then I don't.
- [93:47]
Chris Mannix
Even know if Kovalev is. Kovalev's kind of.
- [93:49]
Bill Simmons
But yeah, but Kovalev and Bivol were like, guys. I don't know if that could be.
- [93:52]
Van Lathan
On the Bivol he lost, but by the time he fought by the version of Sergey Kovalev that Canelo Alvarez fought, like the name mattered.
- [94:02]
Bill Simmons
I lost money on that name. I still believe in the zombie Kovalev.
- [94:06]
Van Lathan
Certainly Kovalev that like, that Canelo Alvarez fought. We're not talking about Kovalev of 2014 or 2015, but he's been fighting relevant guys now, really.
- [94:16]
Bill Simmons
And he fought. When he fought Floyd. He fought Floyd pretty early, you know, in his career. He was like, I went to that fight ironically. And he just felt like he was two years away from it, but took it anyway because it made sense for him to take it. But he's been taking big fights for 12 years. I don't some of this isn't Crawford's fault necessarily, because like you said, he was trying to make that Spence fight forever. Sometimes he just didn't kind of have his class that came with him. And he's 41 and 0 unified the team. He's 31 KOs. And I was thinking, like, if you're talking best fighters of the last 25 years, there's been all these last 25 years list, and Floyd has to be the best fighter, I think of this first quarter century, right. I think everyone would be like, it starts with Floyd and then you could kind of talk about all these different people. But Usyk, Andre Ward and Crawford, I think would be 2, 3, 4 for me in some order, because none of them ever lost. And then you move into that.
- [95:07]
Chris Mannix
I don't like the loss part. Like, you know, Canelo lost, but he never lost at a low level. He lost to elite guys.
- [95:14]
Bill Simmons
Do you know, like those guys have to be after Floyd mentioned, I would.
- [95:20]
Chris Mannix
Have right now, Canelo ahead. I'd put Canelo head of Crawford at this point, just based on resume alone.
- [95:27]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, but that's why Crawford needs the fight.
- [95:30]
Chris Mannix
He needs it like the. The. The two things that you guys touched on there better. I think most. One thing is you've touched on is that is most important is the weight. Like, muscle is heavy. And Crawford looks fantastic. He looks like a bodybuilder. But this will be his first time ever fighting of 168 pounds. It'll be his second time ever fighting above 147 pounds. I have this argument with Sergio Moore all the time, I feel like I'm on crazy pills where he doesn't think it's that big a deal.
- [95:54]
Bill Simmons
It drives you crazy. That Sergio really. It really bugs you.
- [95:58]
Van Lathan
I listen to it.
- [95:58]
Bill Simmons
It's very interesting. Guys, old marriage.
- [96:00]
Van Lathan
You guys are a good crew man.
- [96:02]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, we try, but he's like, the weight doesn't matter all that much. You can't convince me of that. Like the second half of the fight, when Crawford is moving as much, he's going to have to move. Trying to be as reflexive as he's going to have to be, that the added muscle isn't going to matter. Muscle is heavy. Like muscle is going to wear on you as a fight progresses. And Canelo. Well, me neither. And Canelo has been fighting at this weight for. For so long. Yeah, he's fought 12 rounds at this weight so many times, he's not going to have any problems. We don't know yet what kind of issues Crawford's going to have with that extra weight. The other reason I like Canelo is that Canelo can be kind of a spiteful body puncher. And one of the little areas of weakness that Crawford has had over the years has been some of those body shots. We saw agus Kavalaskas at 147catch him with the body shot that bothered him. Nadromov in that fight caught him with a couple of body shots. I thought they bothered him. One of the reasons guys do not let go of their power hand against Canelo is because they know what's coming back. They know that if you overextend on that power hand, you're leaving yourself open to a big body shot. I guarantee you. Canelo, Eddie Reynoso, their entire team, they're looking for counter to the body against Terence Crawford in this fight. If they land it, that's going to be the first time, van, that Canelo gets hit or Crawford gets hit with that kind of speed and that kind of power in this kind of weight class.
- [97:24]
Van Lathan
The thing that bothers me the most from the Crawford side of it is his fight tendencies the way he likes to fight. Even when he is the clearly more talented fighter, he enjoys a firefight. There are times when Crawford doesn't use his athleticism and his feet to get out of situations like he should. Crawford will take a couple of shots. He likes to show you the dog.
- [97:51]
Bill Simmons
A little bit a Philly fighter, even though he's not. They always say that about the Philly fighters.
- [97:56]
Van Lathan
He has a fight tendency to engage in firefights and to feel his opponent a little bit and want to return one because that's his mentality, but also because he believes in his power. He's not just a powerful puncher, but he's an extreme, extremely precise puncher. The coordination and the quick twitch of Crawford is insane. And he believes in that. I don't think that that would be smart to do in this fight. I don't think it would be smart. He would have to fight this fight, to me, a little bit more like a Floyd, a late stage Floyd would fight a fight which is be there, not be there. Punch. Punch.
- [98:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [98:38]
Van Lathan
And if he. I don't know if that's in him, but I'll tell you one thing, I don't know why I have a feeling that he's going to win. And I know I'm on one of the biggest sports podcasts in the world saying that. I have a feeling that he is going to win.
- [98:57]
Bill Simmons
On Saturday night, I was shocked by the line because I'm with you. I was leaning a little toward Crawford. Canelo, at least on FanDuel was like minus 190. It's like almost a two to one favorite. And Bud's like plus 152, something like that. I wonder if we get closer to the fight, but were you surprised by that? I know the lines, they put them, you know, they're trying to balance the action, but we. You weren't surprised?
- [99:20]
Chris Mannix
No, it's. To me, it's about respect for Crawford and everything he's done and a belief that after the skull fight, Canelo has lost a step. I think that's what everyone right now is looking at. I'll tell you the. The good bet so far is Canelo by decision. That's at like plus 130. I want to say, when I looked.
- [99:39]
Bill Simmons
At it there, he isn't a knockout since, what, 20 or 21.
- [99:42]
Chris Mannix
And I don't think Crawford's going to get knocked out. Like, I think Crawford's even jumping up this much in weight is too mentally tough and too skilled to get knocked out in a fight like this. I just think that Canelo's. I don't think Canelo's lost as much off his fastball as people think. Also getting a decision against Canelo Alvarez in Vegas, it's not going to happen.
- [100:01]
Van Lathan
Like, it's.
- [100:02]
Bill Simmons
It's.
- [100:02]
Van Lathan
I mean, one of. One of the judges. One of the judges in the Mayweather fight.
- [100:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [100:07]
Van Lathan
Scored the fight for Alvarez, which. Or the. It. You. Which is impossible. It's impossible if you, if you watch. It was a draw. No, he scored a draw, right?
- [100:18]
Chris Mannix
I think it was a draw. It was a majority decision for.
- [100:20]
Van Lathan
Yeah, so he scored the. That's impossible if you watch that fight at all. Question for you.
- [100:26]
Bill Simmons
That judge also had stock and aspiration.
- [100:28]
Van Lathan
Same thing. Right. Do you think that Alvarez, you say he's not going to knock him out. Will Alvarez hurt Crawford?
- [100:36]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I'm going to vote yes.
- [100:37]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, I'm going to say yeah.
- [100:38]
Bill Simmons
The body punch, he always gets at.
- [100:40]
Chris Mannix
Least one body punch in even though he hasn't knocked out anybody over the last, what, five or six fights. He's hurt everybody during those fights or at least knocked them down. Like John Ryder and Guadalajara had a busted nose in the fifth round, Jaime Munguia was knocked down and I thought he was out cold. In the final round, Canelo just kind of carried him all the way to the stretch. Edgar Berlanga, you know, had a parade because he went the distance with Canelo, but he got knocked down in what, the third round of that fight. So he always, especially early on, he always has some moment because guys don't really get the speed and power combination that he brings to the table. He cruises a lot more than he used to. And you could even go back to the third Golovkin fight to where you started to really notice that like he was up 6 zip, 7 zip on Golovkin and then Golovkin mount a little bit of a comeback in the second half of that fight. So that's, that's eroded from his game. But the first half of a fight he's dangerous and I do think he's going to catch Crawford with something that buzzes him.
- [101:41]
Bill Simmons
Could you give us the. Because I'm sure you've spent time around Crawford.
- [101:45]
Chris Mannix
Yep.
- [101:47]
Bill Simmons
Give us the vibe. You've been around a million NBA players, you've been around a lot of famous athletes. What's the vibe with him? How would you describe him?
- [101:56]
Chris Mannix
I mean, he's ruthless and I say that in a complimentary way. He's singularly focused on winning and believes that there's nothing that can stop him from doing it. And I see that in some of the all time great NBA players. And Kobe, he's. He's got a kind of a Kobe vibe to him, if we're being honest. Like he's got that, that relentlessness that, the belief that he can do, do anything. He's also. I don't think Kobe had this because Kobe wasn't really around as much during the Social media age. But Crawford's got rabbit ears. Crawford, Crawford sees and hears everything people are saying about him. He claps back on Twitter, not quite in a Durant like way, but he's, he's been known to, to get jump on Twitter and, and fire back at his skeptics. Like he and I have had issue. He and I started having an issue after I scored the fight close for him against Madurov. He was upset at how I scored that fight. So he sees everything.
- [102:48]
Bill Simmons
He actually got upset with you online or like how did you.
- [102:51]
Chris Mannix
But like when I see him and run into him and I've ran into him several times, it's fine. Like it's not acrimonious but it's, you know, he, he, he, he sees skepticism and he puts that in the old fuel tank and, and absorbs all of it, no matter where it's, it's coming from. That's the difference. But in terms of like the comparison, I think Kobe's a good one. Like he's, he's relentless. He's a killer. He's, he believes that his talent and his willpower is enough to do anything in a boxing ring.
- [103:19]
Bill Simmons
I'm, I'm into him. I actually just really like him as a character. I don't feel like he's gotten his just due of all the fighters that.
- [103:27]
Van Lathan
I've loved at the lower weights. Rigonda, I love Dragondao. Loved him.
- [103:35]
Chris Mannix
Wow, that's. I've never heard that before.
- [103:37]
Van Lathan
Loved him. You know why I loved him? I just, he was not an aesthetically like pleasing fire to watch. He was not. That's not what he did. However, do you remember him against whatever. I don't want to start going back to old fights, but I loved Rigondale, I loved Lomachenko, the guys at the lower ways that I really like. I used to like Paul the Punisher Williams. Like he was one of my high volume puncher at like 6:1 at 47.
- [104:05]
Bill Simmons
But then he got knocked the fuck out.
- [104:07]
Van Lathan
He did.
- [104:08]
Chris Mannix
When he went up in weight right, wasn't that at 160?
- [104:12]
Bill Simmons
That was.
- [104:14]
Van Lathan
By the way, him going up to 160 was what he was what was smooth.
- [104:17]
Bill Simmons
He was never the same after that. Right.
- [104:19]
Van Lathan
Well, he got into a motorcycle accident and that was, that happened. But that was by the way he got knocked out in. I think it was the rematch against Martinez, if I remember. No. Was it not?
- [104:28]
Bill Simmons
Nah, I can't remember.
- [104:30]
Chris Mannix
I was there. It was in Atlantic City. I was there and you could, you could see the eyes Open on the canvas. When he got knocked out kind of face first like that, that was. That was one of the best knockouts I've ever seen.
- [104:40]
Bill Simmons
You only have one of those. You can't. You're never the same. I don't feel like Pacquiao was ever the same after he got sent to next year by Marquez.
- [104:48]
Van Lathan
What I'm saying, though, is, of all the guys at the lower ways that I've liked, obviously, Lomachenko in his heyday was like, he was an apparition. He was there. He wasn't there. He was all around you. It was something like I had never seen before. Crawford is the one that carries himself to me more like a heavier, I'm gonna throw my weight around the ring and impose my will on you type of fighter. He's the guy that steps into the ring with you, and every single part of that ring. It's like you're in a lion's den. Like, he is a stalker, like a freak. And so I think there's a mentality there to that. What he did to Arrow was actually tough to watch after a point, after a no.
- [105:35]
Bill Simmons
It was like Ali, Cleveland Williams type, like Floyd Patterson.
- [105:38]
Brian Curtis
Just like torture, torture by everywhere.
- [105:42]
Van Lathan
He could do nothing. We're gonna see how far that goes. And that's what I love about boxing. What I love about boxing is always when everything that the fighter has, not just their skill set, but their cultural presence, their identity, who they think they are. When a fighter is fighting and you get to see the moment in the ring that he realizes he's not who he thinks he is against this particular guy on this particular night, and does he run from that or does he push past it? That is why this fight is so interesting to me, because that's the type of challenge that Canelo Alvarez presents to Terence Crawford.
- [106:16]
Bill Simmons
Well, the funny thing is, Netflix had that horrific Tyson fight. I mean, one of the worst, worst events that's been put on at least this decade right now. This is the opposite of that. Like, this is a gather together, and this. This could be like a generational fight, potentially.
- [106:33]
Chris Mannix
I don't know that that's the. That. That's the thing, too. Like, I think it's an incredible fight. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not aesthetically pleasing in the ring. Yeah, I don't. I don't believe that you're looking at Hagler, Hearns. I don't believe you're looking at Hagler, Leonard. Like, I think you look at two guys that have proven to be Judicious with their punches. Especially Crawford as he's moved up in weight. Canelo, you know, more selective with his shots as his career has gone on. Both these guys are kind of information seekers in the ring. They feel guys out over the first one, two, sometimes three rounds before they really start to engage. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a very cagey fight with kind of limited spurts of action in between.
- [107:21]
Bill Simmons
Well, you left out two pieces with that. One is one guy's 35, the other guy's 37, so it can't be hagarhearns. The other one is both guys have made a lot of money boxing Crawford, which changes the desperation variable a little bit.
- [107:33]
Van Lathan
You brought that up. That's good. Crawford notoriously slow starter. Like legendarily slow starter. Can he afford to do that in this fight?
- [107:43]
Chris Mannix
I don't think so. Because I think the longer this fight goes, the more it favors Canelo for all the reasons I laid out there. The weight physicality, weight physicality of it all. I think he's got to try to find a way to build that early lead. And Canelo has given opponents opportunities in the past. Like there have been a couple of rounds of fights of Canelo that I've called where he hasn't landed a punch or he hasn't even thrown a punch. Canelo, Callum Smith, first round, didn't do anything. Canelo. Billy Joe Saunders, first round, didn't do anything. Like, he just, he, he, he eases his way into a fight. I think Crawford and his team have to find a way to take advantage of that and at least, you know, squeeze out some statistical wins in these early rounds.
- [108:24]
Bill Simmons
Can you sell us on the co main event?
- [108:27]
Chris Mannix
I have no problem with it. It's probably not the kind of sexy co main event you're expecting to see on a Netflix show. Last time we saw Katie Taylor, Amanda Serrano as the co main event of, of the Tyson Paul fight. This one, look, I think it's going to be really entertaining. I think both these guys are bangers. Like, I think Fernando Vargas is one of the Vargas brothers. I'd probably put him at like number two or three on the list of the top Vargas is out there. I think Emiliano Vargas is probably the best of the bunch. You know, Callum, Callum's a good fighter. Shown he's a banger, shows he's willing to engage. So I think it's going to be a really fun fight if that's what you're looking for. I don't know if you're looking for high level, meaningful, impactful, championship level stuff. This probably ain't it. If you're looking for a banger, you're probably going to get it between these two guys.
- [109:19]
Bill Simmons
I don't know why they did the co for that.
- [109:22]
Chris Mannix
I do.
- [109:23]
Bill Simmons
Well, I. You may know.
- [109:25]
Chris Mannix
All right. I mean, Callum, I mean, look. Well, Callum is, you could say it. Callum's a TKO fighter. Like, Callum is effectively co managed by Dana White. He's been fighting on UFC Fight Pass for, you know, his last six or seven fights. So it's all. It's all who you know, Bill.
- [109:37]
Van Lathan
It's all, you know, real quick as far as that. Just big picture. Where are we? There was a thought that we talked a little bit earlier about the Mayweather De La Hoya fight. I remember when that fight came out. That was when that fight came out, when that fight happened, that was the fight to save boxing after a lackluster couple of fights and you're gonna put these two guys in the ring. Mayweather then becomes the A side for the rest of his career in a big, big way. And he carries boxing through the next decade. He leaves and then the sport's in the wilderness for a little while as the business changes, as the zone comes around, HBO boxes, leaves and then everybody runs to different promotions, have different relationships with different streamers. We have some really interesting fighters right now. Usyk is on an all time run.
- [110:24]
Bill Simmons
He might be done soon right now.
- [110:26]
Van Lathan
Like we have some guys, a lot of different personalities, but it's hard to gauge like where the sport is right now. Turkey, the last couple of years has really come in and consolidated the matchmaking. But is the sport healthy with all of this stuff happening? It seems like there's a new business move made every week. It seems like there's a new app you have to get. Is boxing healthy right now?
- [110:50]
Chris Mannix
I think it's in a challenging spot right now. I think there are healthy aspects to it, but I think overall it's still challenged. The Saudi effect has had positive and negative effects, right? Like the positive impact is that we're getting fights that we either were never going to see or we sure weren't going to see twice. Like Bevo better. Bev is a great example. I can tell you. We were never going to see that fight. There was no money in it anywhere. Both those guys have no fan bases and no ability to sell pay per view. So you needed Turki Alishik and the Saudis to come in pay for that fight. Getting Fury and Usyk twice in the Same year is the kind of thing you, you'd never get. So you get a lot of great mega events as a result of the Saudi influence in boxing. Among the problems though, is that a lot of these fights are taking place in a different part of the world, which means that people are being asked to watch it in the US at like 3 o' clock in the afternoon, often when college football's on or the NFL is on or whatever's on on a Saturday, going to the beach in the summertime. So there's a challenge. And I think a bigger issue is that because these Saudi purses are so, so big, fighters are willing to wait around and not fight with the hopes that they'll get one. I'll give you a quick example. Teofimo Lopez, still one of the bigger names in boxing. By all rights, Teofimo Lopez should be fighting a guy named Richardson Hitchens at Madison Square Garden in November or December. Two New York area fighters, 140 pound title holders, the both of them. That is an excellent fight to make at MSG. Instead, Teofimo, who would probably make like 2 or 3 million to fight Hitchens, is sitting around hoping that Turki Alisheek will come forward and give him 6 million to fight someone like Shakur Stevenson, you know, over in Saudi Arabia in January of this year.
- [112:44]
Bill Simmons
So I think that's and aspirations offering him 7 million not to fight at all.
- [112:50]
Chris Mannix
We always, we always come back to that. But it's, the point is for boxing to thrive, it needs activity. UFC thrived because it put on great event after great event. Boxing still puts on great events, but you can't have a great event and then four months of nothing. You need to be putting on great events twice a month to get some momentum for the sport.
- [113:10]
Bill Simmons
Well, I mean, look at Crawford and Canelo. Those guys are fighting once a year now.
- [113:15]
Chris Mannix
Oh, Canelo's different. Canelo's been pretty active for a guy of his status.
- [113:19]
Bill Simmons
What's, but what, how many fights has he had in the last four years?
- [113:22]
Chris Mannix
He's at least two fights a year.
- [113:24]
Bill Simmons
All right, two fights a year. And Crawford's one fight a year. And these are two of your four biggest stars. Usyk will, he'll pull this. He'll, he'll, he'll still get out there. Hopefully at least once. Wait, maybe two time, Two times a year, maybe. Hopefully.
- [113:39]
Chris Mannix
No, I, I think, I think Usyk's probably got one fight left. If Joseph Parker beats Fabio Wardley, I think that's the fight he'll take. And Then look, if I'm Usyk, like, then I'd call Jake Paul, like, I think then if I'm Usyk, then I try to gimmick facts. Yeah, why not? He's fought so many tough ones over the years. He deserves that.
- [113:55]
Van Lathan
Cleaned out his whole. He earned it. He cleaned out his whole division on an all time run. Why not get the.
- [114:00]
Bill Simmons
So if we go. Yeah, if we go Mount Rushmore for the century before we go. And Floyd's on there and Usyk's on there. Who are your other two?
- [114:07]
Chris Mannix
Andre Ward have to be on there. For me, he was to be the fighter of the decade between 2010 and 2020, even though he retired in 2017, he had a tremendous run. A Pacquiao's got to be on there. So that's.
- [114:17]
Bill Simmons
So that's your four.
- [114:19]
Chris Mannix
That would be for the 21st century.
- [114:22]
Bill Simmons
First 25 years of this century in boxing. So that's your four.
- [114:27]
Chris Mannix
That Would be my four. Yeah. With Canelo looming right there, probably those.
- [114:31]
Van Lathan
I would think about Bernard Hopkins, I looked at him. I would think about Bernard Hopkins in that situation and maybe even, maybe even on an outside level, just honorable mentions. Tyson Fury would be there as well. Tyson Fury, however his career has played out since then, ended one of the greatest runs in heavyweight boxing history. Like when he beat Klitschko. People will underrate Wladimir Klitschko because talking about guys that didn't have a lot of gigantic names because of the era that they fought in, he was the most consistent, technically pure fighter at heavyweight for that long run. Always came in in tremendous shape, added more levels to his game, changed it up, stay relevant. And the guy who ended that run was Tyson Fury. And then he had it for a little while until Usyk came along. So I give Tyson Fury a little bit of.
- [115:32]
Bill Simmons
I have the Klitschkos on a different list.
- [115:35]
Van Lathan
What's the list?
- [115:35]
Bill Simmons
The you guys ruined boxing list. It's like 20 people. The Klitschko's, Vitaly Klitschko, the heavyweight, Klitschka, the heavyweight division. Just felt like it was nobody.
- [115:48]
Van Lathan
It wasn't they fault.
- [115:49]
Bill Simmons
I know. I just. I look back at that era now, I'm like, I don't even remember.
- [115:54]
Chris Mannix
I'll give you this, Van. I'll tell you this. I'm not convinced Vladimir's done. I'm not. What?
- [116:01]
Bill Simmons
Oh, my.
- [116:01]
Chris Mannix
I think, look, Vladimir. Vladimir I think is extremely happy for his countryman Oleks and Usyk. But if Usyk had been beaten by Tyson Fury in one of Those two fights. Yeah, I think Klitschko would have come out of retirement and fought Tyson Fury, and I still don't take that off the table. I still don't.
- [116:19]
Bill Simmons
But even every fight is consideration.
- [116:21]
Chris Mannix
No, no, he wouldn't do that.
- [116:22]
Van Lathan
Yo, you know what? Fight will go hard right now? A Klitschko, AJ rematch. Why not? AJ's got why not? Why not? That's a winnable fight for him.
- [116:30]
Chris Mannix
Phil hates aj. Bill's down. Phil's not big on AJ lost on.
- [116:35]
Bill Simmons
One side or the other of his last.
- [116:36]
Van Lathan
But see, here's the thing, though. I know we're going along, but here's the thing about aj, though. AJ gives you a good example of kind of the precarious situation that boxing gets into. AJ was a draw, is a draw, remains a draw. If he was as dominant a fighter in the ring as he was a personality and sort of a business machine outside of it, you might have seen if he could have won a couple of these fights. He doesn't lose to Andy Ruiz like you. You see in that situation, somebody who could become a major worldwide boxing megastar, but it just doesn't happen for the sport.
- [117:13]
Bill Simmons
Was Anthony Joshua, the Joel Embiid of the heavyweight division. We'll discuss that next. Is Bacoli. Give me, Can I get a Bacoli update before we go? Oh, I thought you mean oh, no, at me.
- [117:25]
Chris Mannix
Oh, like the, the texts I get from Bill, there's usually there's two, there's, it's, it's Celtics related or it's Martin Bacoli. He loves.
- [117:35]
Van Lathan
It's his guy.
- [117:36]
Chris Mannix
It's not over. He's dealing with some promotional issues over in the uk. His promoter, boxer lost its TV deal, and I was kind of sort of getting one back, but he's like, he, he'll be back. He's in the, the Saudi pipeline. And because he did Turkey Alik the favor of taking that fight against Parker on like 24 hours notice, you know, flying in from Africa to take that fight, there'll be another opportunity for him to.
- [118:03]
Bill Simmons
There's a weight limit that he cannot go over. That's it. It's like, I don't know whether it's 2:77, 2:80, whatever it is, he cannot go over that weight. If he goes over it, he can't fight.
- [118:14]
Van Lathan
When he fought Anderson, he was in.
- [118:16]
Bill Simmons
The shape and he was a monster.
- [118:18]
Van Lathan
The best version of himself.
- [118:19]
Bill Simmons
That's it.
- [118:19]
Van Lathan
I, I, you know, that's the way. There's still a lot of questions on the table. For Bacoli but when he fought Anderson he looked like just a pure force.
- [118:28]
Bill Simmons
Do we see Jason Tatum next season? Oh shit, no.
- [118:32]
Chris Mannix
I just think they're going to be.
- [118:33]
Bill Simmons
See how he stops.
- [118:34]
Chris Mannix
So they're going to be so mediocre that there's probably going to people wondering why bring him back, right? Like they're like they're like one three week stretch injury from Jaylen Brown of being, you know, way outside the play in mix. Like who's the starting center right now? Who's the starting power forward right now? As bad as the east is there, I just think there's going to be no appetite to bring him back.
- [118:58]
Van Lathan
I think honestly I think they should.
- [119:00]
Bill Simmons
Just contract look so happy about this.
- [119:02]
Van Lathan
I think they should just get rid of the franchise. I loved Boston. I loved Boston.
- [119:11]
Chris Mannix
What people have to keep remembering is that they have control of this draft pick. Like what, what is the best thing in the what's long term interest of the Celtics? What's the best outcome for next season to get a lottery pick?
- [119:21]
Bill Simmons
The coach and I say this in the most complimentary play way possible is an absolute psycho. And I don't see him rolling over during a season and being like yeah, whatever, he's a maniac. He's not doing it. There's no way.
- [119:33]
Chris Mannix
You just don't have the horses though, man.
- [119:35]
Bill Simmons
He'll figure out 70 threes a game.
- [119:39]
Chris Mannix
Chris that can do it.
- [119:40]
Bill Simmons
Chris Banis, good luck at the tables in Vegas. Say hi to our guy, bud. So your pick is Canelo.
- [119:46]
Chris Mannix
Canelo. Decision.
- [119:48]
Bill Simmons
All right, great to see you. Thanks for coming on.
- [119:50]
Chris Mannix
You got it, man.
- [119:51]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Van Lathan for sitting here the whole time. Thanks to Brian Curtis, thanks to Chris Mannix, thanks to Gahao and Eduardo and Ceruti and I will be back on Thursday. On this feed we'll have a guest and then we're going to do some Ringer 107 which did not go well in week one. This might be my worst idea ever because we're one in four heading into the second week. So going to be trying to turn it around. I will see you on Thursday night. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, hope NY or text hopeny in New York.