Best NBA Playoff Guys, Curry’s Value, and the Perplexing Celtics Meltdown With Wosny Lambre, Joe House, and Bill’s Dad

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast
Episode: Best NBA Playoff Guys, Curry’s Value, and the Perplexing Celtics Meltdown With Wosny Lambre, Joe House, and Bill’s Dad
Release Date: May 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, hosted by Bill Simmons of The Ringer, the discussion centers around the ongoing NBA playoffs with a particular focus on the Boston Celtics' unexpected struggles against the New York Knicks. Joining Bill are regular contributors Wosny Lambre (“Waz”) and Joe House, along with a special appearance by Bill’s father, who provides firsthand insights from attending the playoff games.

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Warriors’ Performance Without Steph Curry

The podcast opens with an analysis of the Golden State Warriors' recent performance in the absence of their star player, Steph Curry. Joe House critiques the team's offensive decline without Curry, highlighting the challenges posed by Minnesota's robust defense.

• Joe House: “It's really crazy because their offense isn't elite. When Steph is there, it's like he's propping up a bunch of mediocrity. And to see him not be there... it's just a pedestrian offense.” ([03:40])

This segment underscores how integral Curry is to the Warriors' success, suggesting that his absence exposes the team's underlying weaknesses.

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Draymond Green's Technical Fouls

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Draymond Green's behavior on the court, particularly his technical fouls and confrontations during playoff games.

• Bill Simmons: “Draymond tried to get himself kicked out. That also happened, which is a tradition like none other.” ([04:19])

• Joe House: “Nobody routinely connects with the head of the guy that's guarding them as consistently... as Draymond Green.” ([05:05])

The conversation highlights Green's aggressive playstyle and its impact on games, questioning the league's handling of his technical foul tally.

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Celtics vs. Knicks Playoff Analysis

Tatum's Struggles

The heart of the episode delves into the Boston Celtics' disappointing performances against the New York Knicks, with a particular focus on Jayson Tatum's underwhelming displays in the first two playoff games.

• Wosny Lambre: “He embodied it in that game. And I just can't believe that Jayson Tatum is actually the player that we saw in Game two.” ([28:39])

Despite Tatum's stellar regular-season performances, his playoff outings have raised concerns about his ability to perform under pressure.

Coaching Decisions and Strategies

Bill Simmons and his guests critique the Celtics' coaching strategies, especially in high-stakes moments.

• Bill Simmons: “They didn’t call a timeout and then run the exact same play. Even Tibbs in the press conference after his...” ([89:15])

• Joe House: “We gotta get you. We gotta get you a new laptop.” ([64:30])

The discussion points out a lack of tactical adjustments during crucial moments, leading to missed opportunities and blown leads.

Game Two Breakdown

Bill’s father, who attended Game Two, provides a vivid recount of the Celtics' collapse from a 20-point lead.

• Bill's Dad: “Jayson Tatum, first team, all NBA, has two points. What the hell? He has two points. He never was in the offense...” ([67:12])

This firsthand account emphasizes the Celtics' inability to maintain their performance standards in the final quarter, attributing failures to both player execution and coaching decisions.

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Player Evaluations and Pyramid Discussion

Building the Playoff Pyramid

A segment of the conversation involves constructing a "playoff pyramid," ranking current NBA players based on their playoff performances and potential impact.

• Bill Simmons: “Show me his signature game in the 2025 NBA playoffs.” ([25:25])

• Wosny Lambre: “Brunson is not hurt. Brunson's going into Boston and ripping the heart out of that city.” ([25:25])

The exchange highlights key players like Nikola Jokic, Stephen Curry, and Donovan Mitchell, debating their standings and contributions to their respective teams' successes.

Jason Tatum's Future

The guests speculate on Jason Tatum's trajectory in the NBA, especially in light of his recent playoff performances.

• Bill Simmons: “This is a real fork in the road weekend for Jason Tatum...” ([44:15])

• Wosny Lambre: “It's time for him... he can't let his missed jump shot... impact the rest of his game.” ([17:23])

The consensus suggests that Tatum's ability to adapt and elevate his game is crucial for the Celtics' championship aspirations.

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Discussion on Other NBA Teams and Players

Beyond the Celtics and Warriors, the podcast touches upon various other teams and players making significant playoff runs or facing challenges.

• Wosny Lambre: Praises Nikola Jokic's performance, comparing him to legends like Tim Duncan and Michael Jordan. ([55:35])

• Joe House: Comments on James Harden's inconsistent playoff performances, acknowledging his moments of brilliance amidst struggles. ([58:09])

• Wosny Lambre: Expresses admiration for Russell Westbrook's resilience and importance to the Denver Nuggets' future. ([59:43])

These discussions provide a broader NBA playoff landscape, highlighting standout performances and potential dark horses.

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Insights from Bill’s Dad

Bill's father offers invaluable perspectives from attending the playoff games, providing a ground-level view of the Celtics' challenges.

• Bill's Dad: “We kept missing shots. The Knicks would come down and they took very good shots...” ([68:30])

His observations reinforce the podcasters' analyses, emphasizing the Celtics' decline in offensive efficiency during critical moments.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the Celtics' playoff viability and the broader NBA landscape. Bill Simmons expresses uncertainty about the Celtics' ability to overcome their current struggles, while the guests share optimistic views on other teams' potentials.

• Bill Simmons: “I just can't believe we got here... It was like, what do you guys do with.” ([105:00])

The discussion underscores the unpredictable nature of the playoffs and the thin line between triumph and disappointment for even the most storied franchises.

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Notable Quotes

• Joe House, discussing Warriors without Curry:
  “It's really crazy because their offense isn't elite... it's just a pedestrian offense.” ([03:40])

• Bill Simmons, on Draymond Green:
  “Nobody routinely connects with the head of the guy that's guarding them as consistently... as Draymond Green.” ([05:05])

• Wosny Lambre, on Tatum's Game Two performance:
  “He embodied it in that game. And I just can't believe that Jayson Tatum is actually the player that we saw in Game two.” ([28:39])

• Bill's Dad, recounting Game Two:
  “Jayson Tatum... has two points. What the hell? He never was in the offense.” ([67:12])

• Bill Simmons, on coaching decisions:
  “They didn’t call a timeout and then run the exact same play.” ([89:15])

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the NBA playoffs, with a specific focus on the Boston Celtics' unexpected downturn against the New York Knicks. Through insightful discussions, critical evaluations of coaching strategies, and firsthand accounts from live games, Bill Simmons and his guests offer listeners a deep dive into the mechanics and motivations shaping the current playoff season.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on a transcript provided and may not capture every nuance of the original podcast episode. For a complete understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends America's number one sportsbook. And they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game. Even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus I'm President in select states gaming problem. Call 100 GAMBLER visit rg-help.com Coming up, we're talking basketball and we're talking some Celtics. Is it over all Next this episode is presented by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass and off the court you still need teammates who are there. When a counter. That's where State Farm comes in with agents to help you find coverage that's right for you. You can focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. State Farm coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network. We put up a two part Star wars rewatchables on Monday. You can watch the whole thing on YouTube on Ringer Movies or you can watch as a video podcast on Spotify. We're sticking with the 70s all month. I think that's what I've decided. We're doing Death Wish on Monday, which is just an unbelievable movie with Charles Bronson. So that's coming Monday night. You have the whole weekend to watch it. I think it's on Pluto. It's on a couple places. So Death Wish coming on Monday night. The Celtics might have a death wish. We're going to talk about that later with my dad. He was at game one and game two and he gives us his in person scouting report. Coming up first though, big wise Joe House. We're back. We haven't had the three of us together on a podcast since our worst contracts draft which I sent to the to the Pulitzer committee. It didn't get picked, but we're going to talk about Golden State, Minnesota. We're going to talk big picture. Denver, okc, Cleveland Indiana, game three. Celtics, Knicks, and that is all. Next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're recording this a little after 8 o' clock Pacific time. Big wise is here. Joe House was supposed to be here. I think he sprained his mcl. He got injured somehow. Anytime House is on any other podcast, his zoom works. And then when he's on mine and it's later at night, no zoom. I'm just gonna assume alcohol. That's. That's where I've landed.

[Joe House]

A lot of martinis for the big guy. I'm not surprised by that.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's got a big lottery coming up with the Wizards on Monday, so.

[Joe House]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I want to get your. Your thoughts. I'm talking to my dad later about Celtic snakes, but I obviously want to get your thoughts as well. We stayed up to watch Minnesota Golden State. I don't know what made me think that this might be a good game. I'll start here. Is Steph actually the non Yoko mvp? When you see what somebody's team looks like when they're not on it, is there a more dramatic. Oh, God. Than. Than Golden State without Steph?

[Joe House]

It's really crazy because their offense isn't elite. When Steph is there, it's like he's propping up a bunch of mediocrity. And to see him not be there. Jimmy on half an ass cheek is just pedestrian. That's just what it is. Like, it's just a pedestrian offense. And Minnesota is one of the best defenses in the league, so I'm not surprised that they kind of grinded the Dubs offense into the.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they also got the game. They got the game they needed already. So that was. This was the gravy game.

[Joe House]

That's part of it too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

Draymond tried to get himself kicked out. That also happened, which is a tradition like none other.

[Bill Simmons]

I texted you and House and again, Rip House apparently couldn't make the putt, but I texted you guys literally five minutes.

[Joe House]

It was five minutes. I checked the timestamp.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause I was like, I wonder what quarter Draymond might try to get himself kicked out of this game. And then he did the swing the arms thing. And Stan Van Gundy. Let me get the exact quote. Hold on. I'm not sure there was any intent there. Steven Van Gundy. Steven Van Gundy watching the Dahmer miniseries episode 8 as Dahmer eating somebody's genitals. I'm not sure there is any intent there. I. You know, who knows with Draymond, but He is in the the first team all NBA of swinging his arms into somebody's head.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the best in the league at it.

[Joe House]

Like a lot of people exaggerate contact, but nobody routinely connects with the head of the guy that's guarding them as consistently or the nuts as consistently as Draymond Green.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Draymond got the game he needed to win. I guess the bigger question for him is this technical foul tally that you would figure after 2016 he might be more aware of from a big picture standpoint because now I think it's two more and he gets suspended for the next game. So he's got, I guess, a technical to work with.

[Joe House]

I still haven't figured out what distinction they're making on the tech and the flagrant to like there's no rhyme or reason. It feels like. It feels like they're cutting the guy a break as to not get him kicked out of the game for the crazy stuff that he's doing. But their explanation leaves me wanting like pretty much every single time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I agree with that. Kaminga, in this game tonight, were you. Did you ever own property on Kaminga Island? Did you look which you go on Redfin and check out some houses. What was your.

[Joe House]

Very early on, I would say I was definitely like, look, this guy is athletic, he plays with a motor. He's huge. This is an exciting kind of young guy that within Steve Kerr's system would be fun if he would develop. But I would say beginning last year where it's just like, it's obvious, first of all, he went to the press complaining about Steve Kerr. Steve Kerr was like, all right, whatever, f it we're gonna put this guy in, but it's obvious you're not.

[Bill Simmons]

He didn't like that. By the way, I don't think Steve Kerr was a huge fan of the.

[Joe House]

Complaining to basically going over my head. He's not some creator, right? Like, he's just not. And he's just refused to make himself into just a great role player just to, dare I say it, GP2 like, look at what this guy does. Great cutter, great rebounder, great defender. Just shoots open shots when it's swung to him. Like hits the break like he uses his tools to the best of his ability to fit into what Golden State's trying to do. Kaminga basically does none of that and thinks that he's Kobe and it's just like, eh, I don't know why I should still be excited about him.

[Bill Simmons]

You know where he's. Here's how you why you should be excited if somebody on his team who's really important gets injured and he has to play minutes by default. Becomes exciting because he walks out there and he's like, finally I get to battle with Anthony Edwards, my peer. Nobody. And Anthony wonders, understands what we have as a connection as rivals and he just goes set dead with them. Did you think even without this Curry injury, did you think Golden State had a real chance in this series?

[Joe House]

Um, yeah. I mean, you mean pre injury. Did I think the. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Just because the, the, the Wolves are just collectively not the most highly executing team. Right. And the, the, the Dubs are the opposite. These guys are veterans with insane playoff know how collectively and you know they have a great coach. And so I was just like, just based off of that alone, I thought the Dubs would give them a great series and had a. Definitely had a chance. I'm not going to say I thought they were going to win. I just assumed Minnesota size would eventually end up being too much and Anthony Edwards playing more like he did in the second half of game one throughout the series. I just assume Minnesota would eventually wear these guys down. But now it's hard to see it. And you know, I know they said they're going to reevaluate in a week. That's not how hamstrings work. This guy's not, not coming back in a week.

[Bill Simmons]

No hamstrings, calves, groins, and they always do the at least a week or at least 10 days and it's, you know, it's never, it's not good, it's too bad. But on the other hand, here's the thing. He's 37 years old. They just had this war against the Rockets for seven games, right? And that game seven is worth a game and a half of playoff kind of minutes. Intensity, it's like a, it's like a three. It's like 150% of a game, right? And then he immediately gets hurt in game one of the next series. And that's what happens when you're relying on 40 year old LeBron and 37 year old Steph Curry and you're relying on guys who have played a million playoff games is the variance becomes a little dicey. Right.

[Joe House]

But then, you know, I was talking to some warriors friends and they brought up something that I thought was kind of pretty, you know, head, head on. Um, the, the Dubs came into the season thinking these young guys were somehow going to be competent enough to make this thing work.

[Bill Simmons]

Um, and you Talk about, like, pods and Kaminga and.

[Joe House]

Yeah. And they make this trade for Jimmy Butler. Finally they get Steph some help, only they have to treat the last, like, 25 games basically, like playoff games. So they've been going all out, essentially, since February. And it's hard for me not to believe that that didn't play a role in why Jimmy, I mean, excuse me, why Steph ends up straining his hammy because he's been going pedal to the metal for months now. Shouts to Joe House. Man, welcome to the welcome to the BS Podcast, brother.

[Bill Simmons]

Joe House. He's just staring at. Oh, no, he's in. Choppy Internet. This is great, House. You're only on nine ringer podcasts, but somehow when you come on mine, it's like you're in a log cabin in Sturbridge, Massachusetts.

[Waz]

Well, I don't know if you're going to hear this or not, but only one podcast uses. Well, I don't even know if I should name names, because I'm going to.

[Bill Simmons]

This is my fault. I was asking for it.

[Waz]

Every podcast that I am on uses the same platform. No issue whatsoever. Except for one. It's this one. I won't name names using Zoom.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, what are you talking about? Like, you wanted Riverside.

[Waz]

Riverside is seamless and perfect. Nobody has an issue with Zoom with Riverside.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you tell us what year your computer is that you're using? Like, honestly, give us what year did.

[Joe House]

You purchase that computer?

[Bill Simmons]

How old is the computer?

[Waz]

It's probably 2016. That would be like, oh, my God, that's insane.

[Bill Simmons]

Trump presidency year one, the first one. That's how Sister Painter, 2016.

[Waz]

I. I do have a modern setup. The problem is that my modern setup is in my house above, where my teenager sleeps.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Waz]

And so it's 50. 50. Whether I can go up there and hoot and holler the way I like, or do I use this remote setup, which most of the time works. But. All right, it could be how close we are to the booze. I mean, the booze is right over my left shoulder. That could have something to do with it.

[Bill Simmons]

So many articles about the explosion of video pods. And then House calls in on his Commodore 64. Get ready, House. I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Woz after you watched a Warriors game. Like, tonight. Is Curry the non Yoka Gym VP compared to guys who actually mean the most to their specific teams?

[Waz]

Well, this was the case, you know, kind of all season long. The only way that Golden State was relevant to any kind of conversation Was that bad man Curry. And I was very nervous at the beginning of the season, all the way up until the trade deadline that this was a going away affair. That this was basically, you know, the year before the year for his retirement circuit because Golden State had no prospects whatsoever until Jimmy Butler fell into their laps. And here we are. He can't play. So they're dead.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think that's it. But you know what's alive? Pat Spencer's facial hair or whatever is going on gimmick was what's going on here. Wise, can you walk us through? You've seen a lot of looks over the years. I know, I know you've taken some true delight in some different things with Pat. Where does Pat Spencer rank first?

[Joe House]

Red flag. Is that terrible number? Why? I'm sure it's some tribute probably to a late family member or something like that. I'm sure there's something heartwarming to it. But bro, get a real jersey number first of all. And yeah, he's clearly, he's out there in the Bay Area with those folks. I wouldn't be surprised if he's microdosed some shrooms every now and again. That would not shock me. That's what the, that's what the facial and the hair is giving for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we might have to get him on the ringer. Here's my next question. When you watch Minnesota, and Minnesota has looked pretty spotty in these two games, right? They're bad in game one. And even tonight they kind of picked their spots and, you know, Edward sprained his ankle in the second quarter and then returned pretty quickly. But, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say they look sharp as hell. It made me wonder how good the Lakers were.

[Joe House]

I see, I see it a little bit differently. I think Minnesota is the kind of team that really does play up or down to their competition. You know, they beat Denver like five times this season. You know, all of their OKC games for the most part have been fun. And Edwards is just a hyper competitive guy that way. And so I'm not surprised, you know, Steph goes down and they're kind of just dilly dallying and aren't giving it their best effort. But there were times today where you saw the team that we saw in moments against the Lakers. And so I think they, they will give anybody a run for their money. I'm talking about from the best teams left in the playoffs. But they do have moments of just boneheaded basketball. And it's been like this Basically for three, four years now.

[Bill Simmons]

So you don't think Pat Spencer and Quentin Post maybe bringing the A game out?

[Joe House]

I don't, I don't even think Draymond's deep seated and rooted hatred for Rudy Gobert is, is even going to be enough. Um, they just can't do it without 30.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. How so where do you stand on Minnesota? They hurt our feelings. Cause we had a huge bet before the series. You, me, Sal and Hench. We had Minnesota, game one, Minnesota for the series, Curry plays 12 minutes and we still somehow lose the game one bet. So I know I'm mad at them still. I don't know where you are.

[Waz]

Yeah, I have not forgiven them and I probably won't forgive them. On the Lakers point, I think that the Lakers were an especially good matchup for Minnesota and, you know, vice versa. Minnesota was just a bitch of a team for the Lakers. And the way that Minnesota was able to hunt Luca and really expose Luca where he is in terms of, of his basketball, his playoff basketball readiness, he just wasn't physically there. Luca. And so they, they were able to exploit that. And what the Lakers had in terms of personnel, it's an incomplete team. And so they just ran those dudes. They were exhausted. Luca and LeBron were exhausted every fourth quarter. And Minnesota was able to exploit that and you know, four one, that's very impressive. But the way they showed up against Golden State, that's unforgivable. And I'm glad that Chris Finch called out Anthony Edwards. I think that was entirely appropriate. It's time for him to be, you know, the leader that everybody wants him to be. He did. He does set the tone. And he can't let his missed jump shot, you know, his lack of confidence in his jumper impact the rest of his game.

[Bill Simmons]

Luka was either exhausted or hungry. I don't know if we decided both which one? It was hangry.

[Waz]

Luca. Hangry.

[Bill Simmons]

Hangry would have helped him. Indy, Cleveland, that's tomorrow night. I have no idea why it wasn't tonight. I have no idea why I only had one game. They really put. They should have moved this up once we realized Curry was out. But as I've said many times in the pot, I loved, I loved Indy's chances in this series. I wasn't positive they're going to win, but I really thought it was going to be a 50, 50 series. They won game one, game two, nobody plays. Mitchell has a heroic 46 minutes and cannot finish and Indy steals it. And Halburn has this great moment and it's 2.0indy heading back to Indianapolis wise, do you have more concern for the Cavaliers or the Boston Celtics? The team I happen to root for.

[Joe House]

I mean, I would say the Cavs. By far, the Boston Celtics aren't missing two all NPA caliber players. Right. Um, and another guy who they seen as their key deadline deal in DeAndre Hunter. So, like, I think Mobley's gonna come back from his injury. He'll probably be a little limited. It's an ankle. People come back from those and, you know, just gut it out. Garland isn't coming back. Like, all indications are that that toe injury is horrible. And coming into the series, I kind of felt like they could win the Garland. I did think they were that much better than Indy. But now you're down.02 and you're the guy who at many points of the season has been your best player is severely limited and hampered. They got a whale of, you know, basically of a job to do to win four out of five games against this Pacers team. That is just. They're clicking, man.

[Bill Simmons]

He agrees with you, FanDuel, because the Pacers are minus 194 favorites and the Celtics are minus 112 favorites. So I think it is way more weak. One thing with that, that I thought was a sneaky piece of the Garland thing. I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this. He handles the ball for them a ton. And Indy's kind of a to play with how they go 94ft and they just hound you and they just, they really make you work the bops and. And that was one of the things with Mitchell. He had to bring the ball up a lot. And then near the fourth quarter, it's like, all right, I'm done with this. And other people were doing it, but I, I think Indy. It's weird because sometimes you'll watch them, they'll choke games away at the end and you're like, how do they lose that? Then other times they come late, almost like a boxer, where it's like, wow, they're down on the cards, but they're throwing bombs right now. House you, do you like this indie team? Where do you stand on Indy?

[Waz]

I really do. And we were on them after the. The, you know, the calendar flipped into the new year. We. We liked their. The. Where their win total sat, the forecast for how they might end up the season. And they've been as good as. As, you know, just about anybody over the. The last 50 games of the season. Their record now is what, like 36 and 11 something. Something very good.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think. Weren't they like 35 and 15 and then what they do in the playoffs, 4 and 1. Now they're 6 and 1 in the playoffs. So it's something like 41 and 16 in their last 57. Something like that.

[Waz]

Yeah, that. That's it. And so it's also the case that, like, there are a different kind of beast in the playoffs, and the chops that they acquired by way of making it to the Eastern Conference finals can't be overlooked. I mean, when you get to. When you just get those playoff reps the way that they did and face, you know, Boston, Halliburton went out, but all those other guys, there's a level of confidence, there's a swagger. They are not intimidated by the moment. They're not afraid of the moment. It's a bitch for Cleveland. I'm so bummed out that they're. They don't have Garland because they've. They've been so good all season long that the, they deserve, like, the full compliment to go ahead and take a legit run at this season. And they're not going to get it because Garland's absence is, Is. Is. It isn't just like a scoring issue. It's. It's part of what you said, Bill. It is the fact that. That he's not there to bring the ball up. It impacts so many different. Their perimeter defense, like, you know, so many different aspects of what Cleveland wants to do.

[Bill Simmons]

Plus, it's Ty Jerome who's great. Who's great when he's the Dan Waiters guy in the movie. Yeah, but you don't want him on the poster necessarily. But you love when he comes in for some, like, crazy scenes, like Tom Sizemore style. But I don't know if I'm building the movie around him. Yeah, look, I still think Indy could have beaten them if they. If Cleveland was healthy. I really thought these teams. I thought these teams were pretty even that I thought the Halliburton story in the Athletic this week was fascinating about. You know, you don't hear a lot of players talk about when they get into funks. And it just. Like he did all the stuff like we talked to ringer colleagues about sometimes. Like, don't fucking read that stuff. Don't go on these boards. Don't go in your Twitter replies like, ignore all that stuff. Nothing good happens in those corners. Don't read it. Don't read it. And Halliburton was like, I was reading everything and I was driving myself Crazy. From the moment the Olympics happened all the way through, I read everything. I saw every criticism and it got in my head and I started to lose my joy for stuff, and now I cut it out and now I have my mojo back. But wise, how many times can you remember an athlete like that openly talking about that? I was kind of stunned.

[Joe House]

Especially not a current athlete or a current player. I know Kevin Durant is famously known for being in his mentions, reading everything that's written about him in the media and what people are saying on social. But most people try to present a face of like, I'm above the fray and Halliburton coming out and just being like, nah, man. Like, I'm reading all these horrible things that are being said about me and it's bumming me the hell out. And it's actually was having an impact on my game that is unique. Most times, like, again, like, active players don't like to show, you know, present themselves as having flaws or weaknesses or whatever the case may be. And so, yeah, I mean, I think it's dope that he talked about it, and I think it's even better that he's sending a message that, like, you need to block that out. The Internet has many great things about it. In many ways, we owe our careers to the Internet, but God damn, is it negative and just nasty as hell. And so, man, it's just a smart thing for him to do, to just lock in with your people and be a great pacer. And look at these guys. They're up 20 against the number one team in the east this season.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think one of the things with him, you could see it the first part of the season, I didn't vote for parole. NBA mostly because of the first two months. I just didn't think he was good enough and that there was a couple games where you'd watch them some nights. And he didn't have the big impact of what you would expect from a typical NBA guy, but he was on the bubble for me. But you watch the playoffs House. If I do my pyramid of guys who are left be good social graphics. And Jokic is at the top of the pyramid.

[Waz]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

The next level down, would you have SGA and Curry?

[Waz]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Who would you have?

[Waz]

Brunson. Buddy Brunson.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Waz]

That's who I would have. Yeah. Over Curry. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. He's never been in the Eastern finals, so we're doing that. We're taking Furious four rings. We're tossing in the ocean.

[Waz]

What pyramid is this? I thought we were doing the 2025 NBA playoff pyramid.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the guys right now, the guys who are left. So Curry being hurt, you're knocking him down.

[Waz]

Yes. Yeah. Brunson's not hurt. Brunson's going into Boston and ripping the heart out of that. That city.

[Bill Simmons]

Settle down. All right, so. All right, so you agree with that wise. You go sga Brunson on that second level.

[Joe House]

For sure. I think Ant sometimes gets to that level, especially his. The Lakers. Like, he was just controlling and dominating play in that series. But yeah, I would say Steph sga.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so third level. Can I put Curry in the third level or are we dinging him because he's third level?

[Waz]

Third level. Third level.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I do Curry, Mitchell and Ant in the third level?

[Waz]

Where are you going to put Halliburton?

[Joe House]

That's what I was about to say.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, well. And he's there. I hesitate to say this name right now given the week that's happened, but Jason Tatum, fourth, an MVP. Is he out of the top three levels now?

[Waz]

This is the NBA. The 2025 NBA playoffs. Show me his signature game in the 2025 NBA playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

So you put. You put Halliburton with Curry and Mitchell in the third level.

[Joe House]

Question Bill of all of those guys. And there's 12 seconds left on the clock. The Celtics are down one or whoever is down one. Would you trust Tatum over any of the guys that you just previously mentioned?

[Bill Simmons]

Was. It's not a great week for the question.

[Waz]

Get him. Was get him.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought I. I talk about it with my dad a lot. The next segment, I. I got rope a doped a little bit, hopefully. Maybe it's not a rope a dope. Maybe it was just two bad games, but we watched them for four months and I really believed. And then you saw what happened in the first two games. And now I don't know what to believe. What do you believe?

[Joe House]

I mean, it's crazy for me because I feel like I was one of the most vocal Tatums, like skeptics in the media. And I thought I kind of had a turnaround on the guy. Like, I thought he got kind of a bad rap. Yes, he didn't make shots in the playoffs last year, but he was incredible on defense. He was their best basically initiator setting up other guys because they don't have a real point guard on the team.

[Bill Simmons]

Best rebounder.

[Joe House]

Best rebounder. Like, he was the engine of what won that championship last year, especially against Dallas, too. Obviously he couldn't make a shot in the Olympics. But then this year I'm like, look man, all the stuff we used to complain about, his tunnel vision, his refusal to get off the ball sometimes, the bad long contested twos, his refusal to get to the free throw line when he has smaller guys on him. He was executing all of that stuff perfectly, clearly playing the best ball of his life. And then Game two was literally the encapsulation of everything negative people have ever had to say about Tatum. He embodied it in that game. And I just, I can't believe that Jayson Tatum is actually the player that we saw saw in Game two.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't believe that we're going to take a break. Not because we need to throw to a sponsor, but because I personally need a break from talking about Jason Tatum. We'll be back In a second FanDuel is getting you into the action for the NBA playoffs like they always do. Right now all customers can get a no sweat same game parlay every weekend where you can bet the NBA playoffs. Use your token and a three plus leg Same game parlay same game parlay plus on any NBA playoff game. You'll get bonus bets back if you don't win. For instance, if you think the Celtics can win game three, I would go up on Tatum rebounds and honestly, I would go up on Tatum assist too. Maybe even do that. Points rebounds plus assist bet with the Celtics money line. But that's the kind of stuff you can do. I love betting on FanDuel. Great promotions every day. Safe and secure app. Instant payments. You can do Taylor Fade against me or with me on Wednesdays at one this week with SGA over 29 and a half points. No better place to bet on all the playoff action. America's number one sportsbook. Visit FanDuel.com BS and get a no sweat same game parlay every weekend in the NBA playoffs. Once again, FanDuel.com BS official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 + President select states or 18 + and President DC opt in required minimum three leg parlay required refund issued as a non withdrawable bonus bet that expires 7 days after receipt. Max refund $5 unless otherwise specified restrictions apply including token expiration. See [e-mail], gambleprom. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We all have our routines during the playoffs. I'm the same man who once wore the same T shirt every single day during the 2003 baseball playoffs. I am the same person who will tell my wife to come into the room when I need a team to win because she's good luck during the NBA playoffs. These are things that happen well Michelob Ultra a great addition to any game time routine. It is a superior laid beer. It's really great. And they're getting fans closer to the game with exclusive prizes including courtside seats to see your favorite team play. Sign memorabilia. Lots more. Enter for your chance to [e-mail] Courtside McGlob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-2025 Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open a US residence 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobaltra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void we're prohibited. All right, we're trying to figure out the pyramid of guys who are left and we got a little stuck on on Jason Tatum of the Boston Celtics, given the week that he's having and Joe House did not have a chance to chime in. So I'm going to give you the floor. Joe House.

[Waz]

All I want to say out loud is it is possible that whatever happened to his wrist in that Orlando series that had him miss a game and you know, to his credit, he did come back earlier than forecasted. It seemed like a wrist injury that was going to have him missing multiple games. For a team that relies on three point shooting, if there is, this would be the best story to come out, that the wrist isn't all the way there, that he's not 100% comfortable and that discomfort is also impacting his judgment. I mean, if you really have to extend it.

[Bill Simmons]

So his brain would have to be in his wrist in the same way.

[Waz]

That Anthony Edwards, you know, in these, the first two games, you know, his, his what? At least the first game, the lack of, of energy against Golden State and, and he wasn't great at the beginning of the Lakers series. That's where I was gonna go. But for Tatum, if that lack of confidence tied to the wrist has him just, you know, settling rather than going inside, he this is the thing that was just said. There's no reason he can't go go be a bully. There's no reason that he can't go down low and take on Og Anunoby and try and get to the free throw line. There's nothing standing in his way in that respect. But I'm trying to be generous and gracious with Tatum. Bs.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been really good. And I don't have an explanation for what happened the last two games, but talk about it later. Well, at least I give my thoughts later. So if we went pyramid of guys right now and the list can move and the list can go up and down. But if we're just saying right now, guys who are playing the best, Jokic, sga, Brunson, Caliburton, Ant, Mitchell.

[Joe House]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Curry with an Astros because he's hurt with Tatum. Mobley with an asterisk because he's hurt. Towns. No. Jalen, Williams, Brown, Holmgren, Aaron Gordon, Murray, like, it kind of drops off.

[Waz]

I like Aaron Gordon the best. Out of all those names you just said, Aaron Gordon's the only one. I'm like, hey, there's a name guy that I think is good.

[Joe House]

I mean, aside from J Dub, those guys are just asked to sort of be as complimentary as they possibly can. They're not asked to drive any actions. J Dub at times is like, all right, you're gonna have the ball, you're gonna create, you're gonna be a one on one initiating kind of guy. Um, Aaron Gordon just asked to fill in the blanks around Jokic and Murray and all the things that those guys are doing. I think Murray, I've been pretty disappointed by his overall playoffs so far. He's been so up and down and inconsistent. And when it looks good, it's like, damn, Denver could win the championship this year. And then when it looks like how it's looked in, you know, so many, too many of these games, it's been a bit disappointing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. If you're talking biggest winners for the playoffs so far, even though we're barely in the second round. And let's remove the Knicks fan base, the Knicks as a team, the Knicks as they're constructed, and everybody who put it together, Jalen, Brunson, just like, this has been unbelievable what's happened with them. Halliburton, I think is up there. And then Aaron Gordon is the other one. Lane, sometimes we'll see this, and House and I are older than you was, but sometimes this will happen in the playoffs with these guys who have been around long enough. I remember it happened with Iguodala in 2015. These guys that were never quite first or second team, all NBA, maybe we thought they were going to be slightly better than they end up being. And then they figured out how to be this, like, incredibly impactful. Zach Lowe would call them amplifiers of the awesome player. And Gordon now has turned into like, did you think that shot was going in house, that three?

[Waz]

I did.

[Bill Simmons]

When Westbrook passed him. You thought it was going in, right?

[Waz]

Yes, I did. I did think it was going in.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's turned into this clutch, reliable man. I was so impressed in the games I went to against the Clippers. Like, he was just so physical.

[Joe House]

Guards the hell out of people. The jump shot, it was the first thing I noted watching Denver coming into the season was he was just taking threes with so much more confidence, man. Like, there was no hesitation. Like, no, this is a shot I should be taking. Cause I'm going to make it. Which just hasn't been the case throughout his career at all. In fact, that was like one of the major knocks of him in Orlando. It's like, yo, this guy can't shoot. You know, they kind of had him in the Paolo role. They were like, trying to the same things that Paolo's doing. They try to sort of cast Aaron Gordon as the kind of guy that could do that. And he so clearly wasn't. You know, he gets traded to Denver, and it's almost like he was born to play with Nikola Jokic, the way that marriage and that synergy has worked. He's, yeah, definitely one of my favorite guys to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so go little mini pyramid. Jokic, Sjn, Brunson, Halliburton, Ant and Mitchell, and then Curry, Tatum, Mobley, and Gordon for the right now, I'll put him next level. But if you had shown me that a week ago and you're like, look at this pyramid you made on Thursday's podcast on May whatever. I'd be like, why is Tatum so low? And what happened to Curry House? What are you seeing in this Knicks Celtics game? Is there is. It's a 12:30 game on Saturday. Game four is Monday. The Celtics have been better on the road for whatever reason all year. Must win game for them. It's going to be the hottest Knicks ticket, I think, since the 1999 finals. And what do you expect if I. If I said to you, celtics win in six or seven or the next sweep, which one would you pick?

[Waz]

I still would pick the Celtics, but. But, man, it wouldn't be comfortable. I wouldn't bet $1 on it. And the hard thing with trying to anticipate what's going to happen in this series is you need to tell me how many minutes Porzingis is going to play. And you need to tell me what version of Jalen Brown I'm going to get, because we Just haven't seen that physical version of him be able to play, you know, the full 35 to 40 minutes that the Celtics absolutely, positively require to be successful in the playoffs. That, to me, more than anything, has been the missing ingredient in these first two games against the Knicks. It's the. It's the guy that can go get that tough bucket when. When we're in crunch time, when we're inside of six minutes, when it's five minutes towards the end of the game and you need somebody to go get a physical bucket. That. That was Jalen Brown. That's why he was the MVP of the finals last year. And there's some reason that he's. It's physical, that. That he's not capable of it thus far in these playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's somewhere 85 to 90%, I would say. Wes.

[Joe House]

Yeah, I mean, he's shooting 30% from 3 when, you know, the jumper has been incredible all season long. And for him to be shooting 30 in the playoffs, you know, that's. That's Tony Allen territory. If. If we're being honest there. Um, I just. To me, what I want to see from Tatum and Brown, who we know is dealing with a bum knee right now, is when Josh Hart or. And Josh Hart's a great defender. You know, he's a gamer or Jalen Brunson a guardian. You guys, you have five inches on these dudes, man. In a big situation, in a situation where it feels like New York is chipping into your lead and things are snowballing, like, you should be able to take these guys to the basketball and generate a shot at the basket or get fouled or a kick out. Yeah. For some extreme level of help. And get New York in rotation and doing your Boston Celtics thing. Like, the entire offense is designed in order to create these driving lanes for these guys. And the idea that you have all these shooters around you and some dude that's six, two starts guarding you, you settle for a fade away from 13ft out. That is just unacceptable to me. And, you know, I just have no reason to believe that that won't change. But I think the problem for Boston is, like, yes, to me, they've clearly been the better team, but I think New York has an opportunity to play better. I don't think they've played their best.

[Bill Simmons]

And yet that's the alarming thing.

[Joe House]

Is they all in the series?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's alarming. I think they. What was it? They had their worst offensive rating of the year in game two. Out of all the Games they've played.

[Joe House]

In the half court. That is putrid.

[Bill Simmons]

It. It. I don't know, House.

[Waz]

I don't like to see you this way, my friend, but it wasn't great. It's tough to defend a title. Let's be. Let's be real about it. It's tough to defend a title.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing you said has that. The most alarming piece of this to me is you're like, I don't know what to expect from Porzingis. What's he going to be like the rest of the series? And I think the answer is he's going to be the guy you saw in game two. I don't think he's healthy. I think there's something wrong with him. And I think if it was any other situation, he wouldn't be playing. And that's a guy who's 20 a game for them when he's healthy, with rim protection and insurance for the top two guys if either of them are off. And now, now that's gone. You saw what happened to Horford. The more minutes he had to play. And, you know, teams start getting tight. The. The. Was the, the piece I don't understand is just the settling and the one on one stuff and the lack of movement, which I thought they had corrected for the most part over the course of the year. Whereas, like, if something wasn't working, somebody starts moving, one of the guards comes over, they reset whatever they're doing, and now they're just jacking shit up. The assist totals were way down in those two games, and that's. It matched what you're watching when you're watching it, where it's like just whoever has the ball is going to shoot my guy.

[Joe House]

Modoc Hill called it hubris, and I agree with him. It's like OKC came out as if their season was on the line. Like, if we lose this game, our season is over. They treated it like a damn near game seven. I can't say that about Boston. It's not that they didn't play hard.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they're up to play.

[Joe House]

But like, you're shooting jump shots in the fourth quarter and you got guys like Carl Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunson on the court.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

You're not attacking these matchups as if your life. It just feels like they didn't feel like their life depended on. On it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

Which I think is just crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Whereas SGA was the opposite. He comes out and he's like, we're not losing tonight. I've got this, guys. Well, here's the thing. My dad and I didn't really talk about this, so I, I feel like this is a relatively flush topic. This is a real fork in the road weekend for Jason Tatum, who won the title last year, but then somehow, you know, still didn't get all the spoils and left the summer with as many questions as answers in a lot of ways, which I think was immensely frustrating to him and the team and his coach. And a lot of what was happening this season was them correcting the narrative that he wasn't one of the best players in the league and he was awesome the last four months and now we're in this situation where they need him. The same way the Nuggets needed Jokic in game four. Right. The same way the OKC needed, needed SJ last night. The same way the warriors needed Curry to play a perfect, really smart basketball game in game seven and just make all the right plays for four quarters. That's what's alarming to me, House, is he wasn't making the right plays. He wasn't dissecting the Knicks in the way that he was doing all season. And even in the Orlando series.

[Waz]

See, I agree with all of that and I hate to take the conversation this direction, but the fork in the road moment is for the Celtics. It's not just Tatum. I mean, if they lose, you going.

[Bill Simmons]

To third apron out of me.

[Waz]

I mean, I didn't put you on that apron. The ownership did it and it was the right thing to do. Let's go see if we can defend the title.

[Bill Simmons]

Where.

[Waz]

Well, as we sit here today, it doesn't feel great. The idea of defending the title doesn't seem likely. And it, it looks like the team can't afford to keep both Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum.

[Bill Simmons]

And so it's or, or Holiday or Porzingis like it. It's clear that there's, it's. This is. The short window of. This is basically a two year run with the group they had last year and this year and then one of those guys just financially I don't feel confident. I don't know which one. It'll be long term. They still have a longer window built around Tatum and Brown that they're in the middle of and they've been in the middle of all decade. But I think this was their best chance other than last year with the contracts with the players and the team and the quality of the players with the state of the league. Right. They're never going to be in a better spot than this Right. House.

[Waz]

That, that's certainly my view. I had them in ink in the NBA finals against Oklahoma City.

[Bill Simmons]

First warning. Jesus, I wish I had known that.

[Waz]

You have that you had the same thing. You had them against Oklahoma City. That's. That's the bet we made when the season started.

[Bill Simmons]

It is.

[Waz]

That was our finals matchup.

[Joe House]

Somebody's got to dig up the footage of Tatum's last game at Madison Square Garden. It was the last Knicks and Celtics matchup of the season. I get it. It's regular season, but I know for a fact that Nixon desperately wanted to win that game because they had gotten their butts kicked all season long. The crowd in the Garden was losing their minds, desperately wanted to win that Tatum was sublime. Dude, that move that he put on OG Anunoby to get the game winning shot was incredible. I was like, this guy is at the peak of his powers. I've never seen Tatum be this incredible. And OG Anunoby has traditionally been a bugaboo for him. He's obviously one of the best isolation defenders in the league. I don't expect you to go out and just make OG Anunoby look like a scrub. I'm not saying that. But like, he just has to be more methodical. He has to be smarter about, you know, how he attacks this Knick defense. Because I do think there are other.

[Bill Simmons]

Places to attack well and you know, you always want to do the stuff that the defense is overreacting to. Like they had they attacked Brunson at the beginning of the game with Drew Holiday and then the next switched on that I, I've always noticed when they put Tatum at the foul line in that Nowitzki spot. Teams hate that when they have the right spacing around him and he's really good at turning around and shooting over somebody going to the basket, doing a little fall away or, or finding like a shooter. If people are drifting off, that's like, that's become something that's been a really good piece of his game. And actually Jaylen Brown's pretty good at it too. They weren't really doing that at all in the second half. And even I look at that last play where they, they do the full court all the way down score, Brunson comes back, jukes Drew and gets fouled. Then the Celtics run the exact same play again, and it's the worst play in the history of the franchise. Fucking abomination. Like, I've never seen worse spacing. There's never been worse spacing on a play, ever. Five guys all next to each other. But I. I would have called timeout and done that lobby to Tatum at the top of the key foul line area and just created that space. That's the stuff. I want to see them start playing chess again. House. Because it was checkers in those first two games.

[Waz]

I totally agree. And that's the place where Porzingis is so crucial. Because if you put.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you stop fucking mentioning him? Jesus Christ. If Porzingis plays 15 minutes, it's a miracle.

[Waz]

But he can crash. He's the guy that gets the ball, you know, as Tatum starts his move and the defense collapses in Porzingis to stand right there to knock down that three. And he's so reliable at that. Okay, I'll stop.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm sorry. No, I know. It's just I. I feel like 15 minutes of him playing decently is what I'm looking at.

[Joe House]

And I think the Joe Maz piece has to matter here too. Like, I get it.

[Bill Simmons]

The.

[Joe House]

We do what we do the math is the math. We're going to shoot 60 threes no matter what the situation is. Like, just context doesn't matter. We get a three, we're going to shoot it. I get that. But there needs to some level of adjustment to the realities. On.

[Bill Simmons]

How about. Yeah, attack, attack. Carl Anthony Towns. He's right there. Just go at him. He went on foul, everybody.

[Waz]

He's dying.

[Bill Simmons]

Somebody let him foul.

[Waz]

Let. Let cat foul.

[Bill Simmons]

And guess who else likes foul people. Mitchell Robinson.

[Joe House]

Yes. That was crazy. That's another thing. And. And I mentioned this on group chat.

[Bill Simmons]

The whole.

[Joe House]

We gotta get Mitchell Robinson off the floor.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Joe House]

As if he's Hakeem Olajuwon or Shaq. That is crazy. Like, that was just crazy to me. And Joe Maz in the press conference was like, yeah, guy was plus 22. He was killing us. Yeah, I wanted him off the floor.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, bro, nobody thought Mitchell Robinson was killing us. That one person who watched that game was like, oh, my God, we can't stop Mitchell Robinson.

[Joe House]

House.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this the biggest Knicks game since the. That you could remember since you were in law. 1999. You're out of law school at that point.

[Joe House]

Easily that win.

[Bill Simmons]

Like the Vin. The Vince Carter Toronto series. Cause they had that Knicks pacer series in 2013. But that was.

[Joe House]

No, it's kind of a. Dude.

[Waz]

This team is better. And this team is, you know, the. It's the culmination of all of these moves that. That, you know, the front office, the reinvigorated front office that by in turn reinvigorated the fan base and created, you know, this excitement that that's been unmatched since win was linsanity. I don't know what's the last time?

[Joe House]

Definitely that's the last time. Like true crazy Nick excitement. But in terms of like after a Nick playoff victory, like I'm telling you, the last time this felt like this was the LJ 4 point play that was the last time, like coming off of a Knicks victory was like, oh my God, I can't believe this is happening. And for that sent them into the final whereas this is just like you know, giving them a two game advantage over the world champs. But it's, you know, it's hard to underestimate. Bill said it's going to be the craziest ticket at MSG in years. And that's true. Like it's. They're going to be ready to blow the roof off. Like not even a 3:30 local time is going to stop it. Like it doesn't matter. These teams are going to be rabid.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that Monday game is going to be even crazier. Yeah, Monday nighter. So my dad, who's not, hasn't even been on the podcast yet. He's really hoping for Scott Foster game three.

[Waz]

We'll see the cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Fingers crossed for the extender.

[Joe House]

The Extender.

[Bill Simmons]

The Extender.

[Waz]

That's right.

[Joe House]

He was an OKC last night.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great games. Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelobotro, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobotra.com courtside Michelobatra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobutra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. There's still a lot of stigma around mental health. Let's change that. This Mental Health Awareness Month. Let's encourage everyone to get support when they need it. And if you're not sure where to find that Support. Check out BetterHelp with a network of over 30,000 licensed therapists. They can help you find the right fit. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.combillSimmons to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.comBillSimmons House does watching what happened with the Knicks give you confidence with your team the about to get rejuvenated Wizards? Well, you got the lottery on Monday night.

[Waz]

Yeah, look, I went on the Ringer NBA draft show with J. Kyle Mann and I couldn't believe the words that were coming out of my mouth. There was a lot of enthusiasm for the direction of this young Washington team.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Waz]

And if we just get a little bit of luck, honestly, I said this to jkm, if Washington gets any of the first four picks, I think there are great players at each of those picks in Washington's developmental mode that, that, that they're in right now. And the head coach, Brian Keefe, like, you know, any one of those four guys can flourish now. Of course I want Cooper. I mean we did poop for Coop all season long so you know, it'd be nice to, to be rewarded for that. But I, I, I'm very excited for this, this the direction of the Washington franchise. It, it's it's just amazing that both the football team and the basketball team for the first time in what feels like 30 years. I shouldn't say feels like, like in the for the first time in 30 years has a direction and a plan. I, it's just unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, hopefully I'll get one of the Rutgers guys because I think that team went 12 and 20 last year. Bring those guys in winning legacy that one nit game they won. I, I'm very excited for the, for the lottery. Before we go OKC Denver, really quick, do you see anything in those first two games wise that makes you think OKC is not winning this series?

[Joe House]

Not really. But I think what people should be looking for is the tightness of the whistle. If the refs allow OKC to be physical, meaning allow them to foul Denver, they're going to have no, they're going to be able to guard them quite competently like we saw last night. If any of these crews are just like actually calling fouls, that's when they're going to run into some issues. So that's what I'm really going to be watching for because they can't physically, none of their big men can physically match up with Jokic. Not Chad, not Jalen Williams, not even Hartenstein. But if they're allowed to sort of gumming up and hold and keep their hands on guys coming off of screens, like, if they're allowed to play as physical as they typically do, then they got a great shot of defending Denver and they're well on their way to the conference finals.

[Bill Simmons]

House Jokic, all time for you. Best player since who?

[Waz]

Oh, God. I mean, he's in the conference. He's in the top 10. So Tim Duncan, I don't. You know who, like what he's doing this playoffs?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Well, you tell me. Would you have it above anything you ever saw from Kobe?

[Waz]

He's. He's in the top 10. He's. He's.

[Joe House]

He's probably trying to start trouble.

[Waz]

I'm not, I'm not. I see that. I ignored it.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Cause I left. I. I said it on the pod. I left that Clipper game. And that was the best game I've seen anyone play in person since Michael Jordan. Maybe LeBron in the 2012. That. That crazy game he had in game six in Boston. But that it was like at that level where it was like, holy shit, this is insane that somebody is this good at basketball. So it's. For me, it was in that area which is, you know, House has known me a long time. I don't throw that around for me.

[Joe House]

Jokic offensively, I know he has his defensive limitations and that matters is as good as prime. Steph Prime, LeBron in terms of his impact on the court. Like again, I love Jamal Murray. The guy is very inconsistent. It's Stephen LeBron level elevating every single thing that's next to them in those two guys primes. And so yeah, Jokic, man, I got too much love and respect for what he does out there.

[Bill Simmons]

I was on Terminator's show yesterday and this was when they hadn't lost OKC yet. So they're up one nothing. I said if he somehow put this together and won four straight rounds and went through that Clippers team in round one, the 68 win OKC team in round two gets his revenge, gets his revenge against Minnesota, who's been his bully for two years, and then takes out picking east team and that's the gauntlet. That's like the best runs we've had the last 30 years are probably the Dirk 2011 run when it was like Durant and Kobe and then LeBron and Wade in the finals and there's somebody else good too. And then that Hakeem run, the famous Hakeem Run when he beat every great center in the league, including Robinson, who won the mvp. I don't think it's going to happen because I think OKC is so good. But if it did happen, I think it would immediately go in that short list. Right. House. That's, that's like, that would be the territory.

[Waz]

And, and it, it puts him like, you know, it cements him inside the top eight of all time players.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Waz]

It moves him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. It, it elevates him another level. I thought just even getting through that Clipper series was shocking to me. Was any, any farewell words for James Harden that you didn't use on the group chat podcast?

[Joe House]

Look, man, James Harden, the only thing I'll say, James Harden's 35 now. The Times that he played well in that series were way beyond anything that I could have reasonably expected. I thought it was gonna be a face plant for the entire time. He had moments where he legit looked really freaking good. But my God, dude, that's really going on your resume. The amount of times in the closing games of playoff series when your team absolutely needed you for you to just come up, you know, look, just becoming a pumpkin, it's tough. It's tough for James Harden.

[Bill Simmons]

House, you didn't get to give your James Harden thoughts on my podcast. I know you have them.

[Waz]

I actually don't really blame James Harden as much like he is who he is. We keep seeing this version of him at this stage of his career. I don't think it's really fair to like, you know, put it. It's a combination of, you know, the, the alchemy that the Clippers tried to pull off with Kawhi Leonard at this stage of his career, like not really physically capable of a seven game series. Not capable of. He showed us tremendous. His tremendous highs, his capacity for tremendous highs. And the same is true of Harden. And then we got to game seven and neither one of them had the, I don't know, the athletic verve. I don't know what, what to describe it. They didn't. The gasoline. That's exactly right.

[Bill Simmons]

But, you know, how about your guy Westbrook?

[Waz]

Love that, man. Never gave up. Never did I look, go back and find that clip from October 2020.

[Bill Simmons]

You said it every year, you love, you love Westbrook.

[Waz]

Well, I said, you know, it could be the Joker's greatest accomplishment, the greatest feat of his career, which is resuscitating the career of Russell Westbrook. Lo and behold, Russell Westbrook is extremely important to this Denver team and their future. Success. It's been a joy to watch these playoffs. I'm. I'm not. I'm. I'm a full Westbrook stand.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I hope we're talking about Jason Tatum favorably in eight to nine years. We'll see what happens this weekend.

[Waz]

Can I make a plea on behalf of NBA America? Can we please. Now, look, I like Wingstop. I'm a fan. I'm here for. Can we please. No more Jalen Green. Jalen Green. Wingstop commercials.

[Joe House]

You cut another spot. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They have.

[Waz]

Go find a different guy.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Waz]

Nobody knows who he is. And he's out of the. You don't want to tell your customers. The subliminal message that Wingstop is sending people is that you're going to have a good meal here once out of every six occasions. That's what. That's when you put Jalen Green as the face of your brand. You're saying one out of every six times. One out of every six of these tenders is going to be perfect for you.

[Bill Simmons]

That's not going to be on the bench waiting to get your wings, and they're never going to come. Then every six times they will. So do you think they should cut as the moment the guy gets bounced from the commercial, from the playoffs, we never see him in another commercial.

[Joe House]

Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

You hear that, Wise?

[Joe House]

Yes, absolutely. And I get it. And you know what? Restart your campaign when the playoffs are over. I don't know. Like, I just can't. They just show the same commercial. And I'm over the OKC commercial, too. I know. Jacoby did a big rant about Kobe.

[Bill Simmons]

That's weird.

[Joe House]

It's very cringe.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing with House is the food commercials really hit home for House because he gets hungry every time.

[Waz]

Well, every time.

[Bill Simmons]

So if it's a wing stop, House immediately gets excited for Wings. But then there's Jalen Green. And now. Now he's not excited.

[Waz]

Every time it starts, I feel like it's possible there's a 2% chance it has a different outcome. No, it's Jalen Green sitting in that car on his way to Cancun or Galveston, where he. Where Houston really belongs. After that future performance, he's going to.

[Bill Simmons]

Be on his way to Milwaukee.

[Waz]

He really. That's where that car is headed.

[Bill Simmons]

Phoenix.

[Waz]

Good luck, House.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you feel vindicated that all the Suns fans revile Bradley Beal?

[Waz]

No. And Bradley Beal didn't do anything wrong. All that man did was sign that giant contract that dopey Tommy shepherd put in front of him. That dopey Ted Leon signed off on, and he's just trying to live his best Bradley Beal life. He doesn't really want to play basketball. He doesn't. He likes playing basketball, but he does. He's like. He likes the money, he likes the life. He likes.

[Bill Simmons]

Two more years of the contract. When we're doing worst contracts in March, I'm already excited for whatever Brooklyn has in store for us this summer. There might be a very fun Ty Jerome Overpay that we might. That might be able to make the list.

[Waz]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Embiid, I would guess, would be the number one guy in the list when we do this. I mean, it's still 10 months away, but Worst contracts, one of the most fun days of the year. All right, we're gonna take a break and come back with my dad talking salt snakes. Was great to see you as always, House. Thanks for logging in on your 2016 laptop.

[Joe House]

It was great, but we gotta get you. We gotta get you a new laptop.

[Waz]

I got a new one. I'm working on it. You know what the real issue is? I do have a new computer. It takes the. The amount of time it takes to get the new passwords. Put your passwords into every single.

[Bill Simmons]

The porn passwords are the work password. No.

[Waz]

So for every, like, app, every single site that you go to requires double authentication. It's a double edit dildo. Trying to sit there and, you know, figure out how to get it. So I'm doing it like, you know, in. In 10% chunks because it's going to take me three weeks to get this new machine up. Double authentication? Come on, man. That's a. That's a damn. Jalen Green Wingstop commercial.

[Bill Simmons]

Double edged dildo and 10% chunks. Good. Good one to end it on. As we head toward talking about Celtics Nick for 40 more minutes. Was it House? Thanks again. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is almost here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana. That's a. No. A banana. That's a. Yes. A nice tan. Sorry, no. But a box fan. Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? Nope. A box of fine wines. Yeah, Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost. Almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals with Vrbo you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. Go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or lobster roll or clam chowder. Really, if it has shells, gills, and is indigenous to the Atlantic, it's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean crazy down there. And guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation. Stay longer and save. Make it a verbo. All right, taping this part of the podcast. It is four o' clock east coast time. My dad is here. We did not talk after yesterday's game. It's very rare when we don't even talk or text after a game. And I finally texted you about 90 minutes after and we just swore at each other a couple times about how bad the Celtics were. You went to both games. You were there. You were in your seat. You'd been going for 52 years. We were, I think, minus eight or 900 favorites to win the series. And they took huge leads in both games and blew the games. And yet game two felt way worse than way one. Game one, what was it like sitting there and watching the season unravel?

[Bill's Dad]

I agree. Game two was much worse than game one. You know, ironically though, like you said, we had 20 point leads in the third quarter of both games. And in game one, I think the crowd was so confident and you just could feel the confidence in the crowd. We're not going to lose the 20 point lead. And of course, we lost that lead. Game two, it was a very nervous crowd. You've been at games like that where you walk in the garden, people are late getting to their seats. Nobody's talking very much. You're looking up to see if Porzingis is playing. He's not in the starting lineup. Somebody says, no, he's not playing. Da, da, da. It finally comes out. He looks like he's death run over. He just looked terrible. He had no color in his skin.

[Bill Simmons]

Super skinny.

[Bill's Dad]

Well, he's always skinny, but his coloring was off and it just looked like he's dealing with an illness. And he had no strength. He just had no strength. Okay, putting that aside somehow, we're up by 20 in the third quarter right now. The Knicks, I thought, played A terrible first half or they had really bad luck. They had a lot of shots that rimmed out, in and out. And meanwhile, halftime comes. I look up at the scoreboard. Jayson Tatum, first team, all NBA, has two points. What the hell? He has two points. I didn't even notice him in the game. It's like he was the one who was out, not Porzingis. All right, we come back, we get the big lead. I think it was third quarter, we made a run. Knicks is still not shooting well. I think the coach took Brunson out because he just, he didn't have it for a while. Go to the fourth quarter. Suddenly we're up by 16 and I look up at the clock, there's eight minutes to go. And I remember this vividly. Tatum steals the ball. He comes running down the court with Brown, two and one. We're going to go up by 18, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

Throws it to Brown. Brown, of course, fumbles the ball and it goes out of bounds. And that was the game to me. I'm watching Jayson Tatum with two points at halftime, shooting three after three once again in the fourth quarter. And I'm watching Jaylen Brown turnover after turnover. We've missed 13 straight shots in that fourth quarter and our defense sunk. It's like the air went out of the balloon. We kept missing shots. The Knicks would come down and they took very good shots. We were taking terrible shots. And you've been to this kind of game where Brown and Tatum, eight minutes to go, they start dribbling the ball at the perimeter.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's the plan with your food offense.

[Bill's Dad]

Yes. It's the isolation. Yes. You look up at the clock because I kept looking up at the clock. Five or six seconds left, One of them makes a move too late. Another missed shot. Thirteen straight missed shots. The Knicks come down. They're moving the ball really fast. Their pace was excellent. The ball's going around. They get the open guy. They make not a three because their three point shooting was iffy, but they get good shots near the rim. It was just the second game was much more frustrating than the first game because it was such a must need game. We couldn't afford to lose last night.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the craziest part of it is the Knicks had, I think their worst offensive game just by offensive rating of the entire season. They played pretty well, especially Brunson was really good down the stretch of game one and thought they really took the game. The one last night was just all self inflicted wounds. Some very strange coaching, which I'm excited to talk about.

[Bill's Dad]

Well and I want to talk about the coaching.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you demote is Joe second row Joe again?

[Bill's Dad]

You know, I don't get it. He got greatly out coached and I'm not a Tibs fan either. Yeah, you know I think he runs his although he used his bench pretty well in games one and two. But I don't know. Are we going to coaching?

[Bill Simmons]

No, we'll go backwards because.

[Bill's Dad]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean there's a couple things, couple big pictures thing here. First of all, I can't remember a Celtics playoff thing like this. I was trying to think of a series where I just think they have clearly a better team and history would show because no team has ever blown 20 point leads. I don't think in the same playoffs, much less back to back in the same playoff games. It felt like they were getting all the shots they wanted and they just missed open shots. There was that screenshot somebody had that was going around social media of Tatum in the corner with like 3:40 left. Brown's under the basket and Brunson's fell down. He's on the ground and Tatum just has a wide open 25 footer. He caught could also just passed it to Brown and it was a brick but it was turning in. I don't know what it felt like being in the, in the building. It felt like every time we took a three. I didn't think it was going in.

[Bill's Dad]

I did not think it was going in. But also you gave a great example of that total fourth quarter. We never made the extra pass, which.

[Bill Simmons]

Is when this team gets into trouble.

[Bill's Dad]

Each guy wanted to make the hero shot and make the lead larger because I think we had a 12 point lead starting in that fourth.

[Bill Simmons]

It was 73:53 at one point. Then it was 16 points in the fourth quarter and the Knicks weren't playing well. And just there's some strategy stuff I want to talk about later. But fundamentally this, these two Tatum games were just atrocious. And it's weird because, you know, then all this stuff starts up again today about he's not actually a superstar and the national media can come in that isn't watching the. Isn't watching the whole season. They're not there week after week. Watching what we saw, I really bought in. I thought he went up a level. We talked about it a bunch. Like there was a level of dissection and kind of artistry to what he was doing the last four months of the season in Orlando game where I really felt like he was solving equations on the fly, he was making the right plays. He could be point forward, he could score. He had just figured out the balance, and I really believed he had figured it out. And then the guy that we watched, especially in Game 2, was the guy from the 2020 playoffs and the 2022 later in the playoffs, like, it was like he reverted. And you said you thought it was the worst game you'd seen him play in person in a couple years, right?

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, a little bit worse probably than game one. Both games were. Both games were horrendous. Tatum games. You know, you remember the. It was the last basket we made. We went by one point and Tatum went straight down the middle, went to the basket.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Bill's Dad]

That middle was open all game one. And in game one, he just wouldn't do it. You know, he's stubborn. I understand that the coach is more stubborn, which is a real problem. But, you know, even that three point shot, which he was wide open in the corner, I saw Brown underneath, wide open. Yeah, take the two. We needed points. We didn't need a three. We needed points.

[Bill Simmons]

But what's been weird about it is the whole year he was getting so good, and I felt like it was getting better in real time over the course of the season of him being like, oh, you're. If I can switch and get this guy on me, I'm gonna go right by him and get to the basket or I'm gonna get to the paint or I'm gonna find. He started to develop that little shot around the foul line, right. That little 14 footer. And he, he was just really putting it together. And then this turned into the old. All the old Tatum habits came back and I don't know what you think it was pressure, like, what was going on, did the guys look nervous, what was happening?

[Bill's Dad]

I wish I knew the answer. Right. That first half, again, I never noticed.

[Bill Simmons]

Tatum, which he was getting rebounds. At least he was. He was playing defensive rebounds.

[Bill's Dad]

He was getting rebounds. I should give him that credit.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not getting. Offensively, you never noticed him involved? No.

[Bill's Dad]

I mean, he was getting defensive rebounds. Okay. Yeah. Offensively he wasn't in the picture. And they go to this stretch in the second quarter, which. Which blows my mind, they take Tatum out and they put Jaylen Brown in charge.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You call it the Jaylen Brown in.

[Bill's Dad]

Charge minutes, every dribbling out at the three point line, five seconds left, he makes his move.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

In the shot clock, more often than not, it dribbles off his knee and goes out of bounds. But he had a Terrible game. I don't know how many turnovers he had.

[Bill Simmons]

It was weird. It started to seem like he was going to have a good game because he was kind of punishing. He was trying to take heart down low early.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then by the end of the game, I think he. His stats ended up being awful. They were.

[Bill's Dad]

You know that. That's my main. One of my main complaints.

[Bill Simmons]

Five. Yeah. Eight for 23.

[Bill's Dad]

They play a completely different game in the first three quarters.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

Than in the fourth quarter. And this is very consistent first three quarters. The ball is moving somewhat. Brown is going into the. At least trying to go to the hoop and they're passing the ball a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

We.

[Bill's Dad]

We had more assists than the Knicks in the first three quarters. The fourth quarter, it's isolation. It's. It's just like what we saw two years ago against Miami or three years ago against Golden State. It's like they forget. And I keep coming back to the coach. You know, you have a coach, the coach.

[Bill Simmons]

Hold up. Hold off on the coach.

[Bill's Dad]

Okay. It's hard. It's hard to hold off.

[Bill Simmons]

Last year when the opponents were a little easier based on injury luck, where the league was. There were still some nutcrunch games when you never felt totally comfortable offensively. And it was still a lot of this. Your turn. My turn. Things would get a little stagnant. The difference was Jalen, I thought there were a couple games when he just athletically really seemed like he could get to the spots he wanted. He was really in complete command. And they had the Porzingis piece too, where they're. You know, they didn't have him in the entire Dallas series. But you. Is this extra 18 to 20 bonus points you were getting. But when I think back to last year, there was that Indiana game that you went to, that Brown hit the three in the corner to send it to ot. That felt a little like these Knicks games where it was like, ah, we're getting stagnant again. And then we lucked out, gotten overtime. And then the other one was the one I went to in Dallas game three, when Luca fouled out with five minutes left. And all of a sudden it was sitting there for. Kyrie's gonna really kill us and bring this series back. This is like, this is where the last seven years have been leading to Kyrie bringing Dallas back. And two, one. And we're gonna fall in all the bad habits. But then they actually held this Dallas off and won that game. And Brown had a couple of big plays and it was like, ah, finally got over the hump and now it feels like we're back on the other side of the hump again with this team. And that's the part I don't understand. We should be getting better, not worse.

[Bill's Dad]

Walking out of the stadium last night was worse than Monday night because at least Monday night we knew we had a game Wednesday night.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

And we could tie the series. But there were so many people walking down the stairs. Well, two things. So many people walking down the stairs saying Tatum didn't show up, you know. Yeah, yeah, he got rebounds, but he never was in the offense. He never took charge or when he had the ball, all he wanted to do was dribble on the perimeter, you know, isolation. Dribble on the perimeter.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he had five, five assists, five field goals. So he created, he created 20 points. And this is a guy who, when he's really humming, he's at like 28 points, 8 assists, 14 rebounds. And he's just kind of involved all over the game. And he was.

[Bill's Dad]

When you were watching the game on tv, was it obvious to you that he only had not the number, but that it's possibly only at two points at halftime?

[Bill Simmons]

I actually liked how he was rebounding and kind of fighting and it felt like they were trying to establish Jalen. Then Porzingis came in. It's like we got to try to get him going a little bit. Prichard took a bunch of shots and I thought maybe he was biding his time and that was the wrong instinct.

[Bill's Dad]

Does first team all NBA guy buy this time in a must win game?

[Bill Simmons]

It's a tough one for. I think a lot of the Celtic fans were really defensive about him this year because we were watching game to game how good he was.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, he had a great season.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the casual fans come in, are the people that aren't watching all the time, and they see this version of it and they're like that. That's why he got benched in the Olympics. This is, this is why he's not a superstar. This is why he's not at the same level. But then you watch like jokic in game one against OKC, put up to 42, 22 and six.

[Bill's Dad]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, you watch Shay respond in a game too. He's got 34 points in three quarters and it's like, that's, that's the level. That's the swimming pool you're supposed to be in, buddy.

[Bill's Dad]

It's a good point. When I came home, I watched the first half of the OKC game because I couldn't go to sleep.

[Bill Simmons]

Sleep.

[Bill's Dad]

And I'm thinking, you know, Shay showed up because he knew this was a must game and he's an all NBA kind of guy. Yeah, our guy didn't. At least offensively.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's tougher when they keep showing the two you didn't see because you're at the game, but they're two commercials. They just keep showing a Tatum and then meanwhile sticky in the game. I mean, there's some other issues. The Robinson, the plus minus numbers with him have been really good when he's out there. I still don't understand why Tatum's not just getting him in a switch and then torturing him every time he's been effective. And then McBride has been. He only had five points yesterday, but at least when they know they can put him out there and he's not going to be bad. So they have seven guys and as we know, you, you need seven guys in a playoff series to be able to win. And they have seven at least.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, McBride had a good game one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's okay.

[Bill's Dad]

He wasn't very noticeable last night, but.

[Bill Simmons]

He'S at least a body that they know they can throw out and they're playing all these other guys, you know, pretty big minutes. And then Hart is the kind of guy that has always hurt the Celtics. This version of the Celtics really hurt us.

[Bill's Dad]

Hart consistently seemed to be on the weak side getting the rebound.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's around the ball. This isn't especially without Porzingis. It's kind of a group rebounding Celtics team. And Tatum's the best rebounder in the team by far at this point. But the Porzingis thing's a huge piece because it, it has that, it has that staggered effect of. It's not just bad that they're not getting the points and the extra minutes from him, but then it's pushing more minutes on Horford, who. You tell me what he looked like in person. It looked like he was luggage last night.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, he didn't have a very good game for sure. You know, he had a good series against Orlando. But games one and games game one and game two last night he looked tired and he looked his age.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and they're putting all the big burden on him.

[Bill's Dad]

Twice in three days they did. And you know, I think guarding towns, he gives up so much height to towns. Townesville just shoots over him and I think it influences his offense. His three point shot was off obviously over five.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think all of them were Wide open. Tatum was one for five.

[Bill's Dad]

You know, I would have liked to have seen Pritchard more.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's that, that's the, the coaching stuff. That was one of the things. Cause I noticed this in game one. I. You could talk me into the three guards with Tatum and Brown versus relying on Horford as much and making Tatum almost like the undersized center and trying to attack the Knicks that way. Because then it becomes when they're trying to get a switch on Brunson, they're just trying to get Horford on Brunson every time, get Pritchard out there, they're probably going to settle on Pritchard guarding Brunson. But I just like that matchup more. And then he gives them spacing on the other side. That's just better than Horford. And I don't feel like they're losing. How many rebounds did Horford have yesterday? 4. You're not, you're not like losing. You're losing a little rim protection. That's it.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, well, you know, especially in the fourth quarter last night, we missed 13 straight shots. You know, some of them were Horford shots. There was no Pritchard. Now, Pritchard had a couple of shots in the first half. They rimmed out. They rimmed out. But I would have liked to have seen him in there. You know what?

[Bill Simmons]

And no Houser either, who sometimes have the two threes. In the second quarter.

[Bill's Dad]

We knew he wasn't going to play. But this fourth quarter over and over, when Tatum, Brown have the psyche to take over and play hero basketball, they ignore Pritchard. I mean, Pritchard can be wide open, and they're going to do their own thing trying to get their shot off in the first half. They'll pass it around, and Pritchard will get more wide open shots.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we bring blame. Missoula, do you take any blame for bringing your brother Don to this game? Cause I can't say he's. Great luck over the years. I thought it was a bold move. I don't know what the other choices were, but Don gets super tense during these games, and I can't even imagine what he was like yesterday during this.

[Bill's Dad]

At the eight minute mark, or it was probably eight, like almost nine minutes. I said, Don, Don, we're up 16. It looks pretty good. But this is around the point Monday night where. And he said, no, we're in good shape.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, no, he's confident. Well, I was watching with your favorite granddaughter. And when we're up 73 to 53 and she's like, well, they bounced back. And I'm like, just wait. I don't trust anything that's happening right now. Let's just wait. I don't feel good until.

[Bill's Dad]

Well, even the crowd didn't trust the lead, by the way. You know, we've been to so many games where, you know, game one, the crowd was so loud and confident last night. We had the 20 point lead. Then it was a 16 point lead with almost nine minutes to go. Nobody was confident.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And they're acting like they're four.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to think before we talk about Missoula. I can't remember another Celtics playoff team since you had the tickets that I felt like was clearly better than the team they're losing to.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I don't mean that as, like, sour grapes. Look, the Knicks, like, we've seen this. This happens in football all the time. Like, part of playing the games is this is why you play the games. And somebody's got to win. And you can overachieve or you can just band together, like. And the Knicks made all the plays down the stretch and they deserve the two games. But this is also the worst the Celtics can play. And I don't remember the only. You know, I. I remember in 1973, Havoc hurt his shoulder and the series got blamed on that. 1982, Tiny hurt his shoulder and they lost the Philly and series got blamed on that. I don't. Even if you go back to like 2018 when they lost the game seven and LeBron that we went to and that nobody could make a shot, right? And then you leave the thing and you're like, man, we couldn't make a shot. But they still had LeBron. They still had the best guy in the game. It was still amazing that the Celtics were in a game seven in the Eastern Conference finals. That Miami game we went to in 23, the game seven when they came back after the white miracle shot, and then Tatum hurt his ankle like a minute in and the game flipped. Miami still kicked their ass and Butler was still really good. And, you know, and Tatum was hurt. Like there were reasons for it. I can't come up with reasons for this. I can't come up for this team that was built as this offensive machine that wins 75 to 80% of its games. Just shit in the bed like this two games in a row. I've never seen anything like it.

[Bill's Dad]

I know some people are saying the Porzingis illness is really hurting us. And I agree with that. Yeah, it hurt Us in the fourth quarter because we had no, we couldn't go to him. They had to take him out. You could see he was struggling, but it left us with Horford and Cornette.

[Bill Simmons]

Cornette was out there with like four minutes left. He never plays that late.

[Bill's Dad]

No. And you know.

[Bill Simmons]

What?

[Bill's Dad]

Our defense in the last eight minutes of the fourth quarter was terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It wasn't great.

[Bill's Dad]

You know, we couldn't stop anybody, you.

[Bill Simmons]

Know, couldn't stop Mikhail Bridges, who I don't think took three shots in the first three and a half quarters of the game. And then all of a sudden they're running plays for him.

[Bill's Dad]

I think he missed his first seven or eight shots.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

And then all of a sudden he's their go to guy and we can't.

[Bill Simmons]

For 18 to finish the game. And I think he made three in a row down the stretch.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah. You know, Brunson is scary. I have to say. He's really scary when he has the ball. I'm assuming he's going to score.

[Bill Simmons]

He abused Holiday on that last play to go ahead basket because you knew it was going to him. And usually I'm going to trust Drew more than anybody in the league on that play. And he used him.

[Bill's Dad]

Obviously. I didn't see a replay. Did he. Was it a foul? I couldn't see it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it was a foul.

[Bill's Dad]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

He, he kind of over committed to the move and then he grabbed him as he went behind. But.

[Bill's Dad]

Well, that leads me into something else. Okay, it was a foul, but a little bit earlier. Twice in a road. Coach Joe. Fouls.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't explain that one. Can't explain it.

[Bill's Dad]

I mean, I know he's a terrible free flow shooter, but.

[Bill Simmons]

But they, they weren't in the bonus yet.

[Bill's Dad]

They weren't in the bonus. We had two fouls.

[Waz]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you get to the final two minutes and you get one foul and then the second foul and you're good to go.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, but this wasn't the final two minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Just. I know.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No, trust me, it, it made zero sense. I didn't understand it. I didn't understand what was happening. And we're just putting fouls on random celtics for no reason. Especially like if you think ot, I'm looking at the. Well, I guess we had some fouls to give. Nobody was in major foul trouble.

[Bill's Dad]

But you know, we had two fouls. We looked pretty good. It wasn't in the two minute period of time.

[Bill Simmons]

Three minutes left. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

Okay. So it made a difference.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't get it. And then He. So they run the play to Tatum to go up. One good play, next score. And then he does a call. Timeout. And runs the exact same play.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which the Knicks are like, oh, you're going to run this play again. We're going to do this this time. And the spacing on that last play, somebody screenshotted it to me. It's one of the worst plays in the history of the Celtics franchise.

[Bill's Dad]

You sent it to me. I sent it?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, I sent it to you. Tatum goes left. He takes three guys with them. There's four other teammates on the court. Three are on the baseline, and one is standing near him in the paint. So there's two Knicks that just have to guard four guys, and then three guys can jump on him. They have nobody come to the top of the key. White is just hanging on the baseline, but he's not cutting. And Tatum could have found him underneath the basket. And everybody's just kind of standing there. I don't even know what they're watching. And maybe that's why you don't take the timeout. And like, I'm. Sometimes I'm. Don't call it. Timeout. Just go. You got the momentum of the thing, but coming off a free throw, I don't know. I'd much rather call a timeout. Save the three seconds, bringing the ball up. They ended up taking the time out. In the locker room, you have to.

[Bill's Dad]

Take the time out. You get the ball at half court, you've saved, as you said, at least three seconds. But, you know, you mentioned how White wasn't cutting. Why would he cut? You knew Tatum wasn't going to give the ball up.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Bill's Dad]

He won't give the ball up at that moment. You know, it's. It's like his Achilles heel over and over and over. At the end of the fourth quarter, he won't give the ball up. And there are guys open. Obviously, I saw the same thing you saw. And I would add Pritchard out there.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have to. I would have especially. I would have called timeout. I would have done a final play with the three guards. Tatum and Brown had better spacing and really tried. This is. Your whole season is on the line. You're down.

[Bill's Dad]

One season's on the line. In all of the great practices they have at the Aubeck arena, don't they have that one play where they. We call a timeout. We need two points. We have a play they haven't seen before.

[Bill Simmons]

And let's.

[Bill's Dad]

Let's use it right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they have. There's, you know, one of the plays they run from time to time that I always really like is when they pin Tatum on the foul line and they almost like lob it, lob the ball into him. And then basically he has this foul line post up that he can either spin, try to go to the basket, get foul. And he's a good free throw shooter. Yeah, I'd much rather. And then you have the right spacing around him. It's really tough for a second guy to jump over. And then if a second guy comes over now, he can kick it out to somebody.

[Bill's Dad]

But, you know, after watching Missoula for three years, did you expect him to call a timeout?

[Joe House]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the best quality that he has is also the worst quality. Like, he, he. He likes the test. He likes seeing it Wasn't.

[Bill's Dad]

Wasn't the game for the.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but I'm saying. But you know what I mean? He, like, he likes when his team is challenged. Like, I'm sure he was watching the game yesterday. Like, this is great. This is going to make us better down the road that somebody's throwing haymakers at us like this. I know, but now they're down 02 in the series, and now you're playing. Also, it's a sad. It's a Saturday afternoon game. It's at 3:30 ET. That's just a weird time.

[Bill's Dad]

That's fine in February, Joe, you know when you want to have the test. But call the timeout, set up that special play that you haven't used, and pin Tatum at the foul line area.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, also protect the lead. This is something I talked on Sunday's pod with Priscilla about. Game seven, Golden State, Houston. Every time Houston started to crawl back, Kurt called a timeout, and he just controlled. He was just like, you guys can crawl back, but I'm not giving you the momentum of like an 8, 0 run, a 9, 0 run. It's never happening. Every time I feel like anything's happening, I'm cutting it off. And the Celtics, it's way more there. I hate to use this word because in the wrong context, it's, you know, it's a little insulting, but there's been an arrogance to the Celtics team that comes out at the worst possible times where it's like, this is who we are. We shoot threes. We don't need a timeout. We can just get Tatum going to the basket. We're just going to play Horford because this is what we do down the stretch. And I really think Pritchard should have been out there for at least one of those games over.

[Bill's Dad]

I agree with you. There is an arrogance. If you listen to Missoula's press conferences after the game, after a loss, he'll point out the positives. Uses the word margins all the time. The margins here we won three of the four quarters. Belichick used to do the same thing, right? It doesn't matter.

[Waz]

You trust the process.

[Bill Simmons]

Gotta keep going. Gotta be on a game three.

[Bill's Dad]

You know, in the two games I know you know this, it's unfathomable to me. We shot 103 point shots in two games. I know 60 in game one and 40 in game two. We made 25 of them. That's not a recipe for success.

[Bill Simmons]

And I thought the biggest sin of either game was the last two minutes of game one when. When especially Tatum was just jacking up threes over trying to get to the basket, trying to get in the paint. Including that one he took with like a minute left. Yeah, that was just awful as he was taking it. And he had Mitchell Robinson on him. And he can just go by that dude every time. And we've watched him. What was the regular season for? This is what he learned during the regular season is just go buy those big guys. You're going to be able to get by them. Finish at the rim. He's also blowing layups too. We missed a bunch of layups yesterday and a bunch of layups in game one.

[Bill's Dad]

Derrick White missed that.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's the question. Because like FanDuel has the Celtics still favored in the series. Right. And the question is can. Are they really going to shoot that badly a couple more times? I feel like the Knicks are going to have at least one game out of these next five where they're awesome, you know, and Towns goes 7 for 10 from 3 or Brunson has 45 points. They're gonna. The Knicks have a good game in them that they're gonna win. So at the very least you're looking at a 7 gamer. They have to win one of the next three, the Celtics or they go home and then you gotta win three in a row.

[Bill's Dad]

Basically the one thing I. People are. I'm hoping for, I guess we've been a very good road team team this year.

[Bill Simmons]

We've been better at road than the home.

[Bill's Dad]

Oh, much better road team than home team. Which makes no sense because last year in the championship year, we're a great home team.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

We fiddled and diddled, you know, to use that term, we, we played around too Much this year at home. And the lineups have been kind of weird at times. I just thought we'd pull it together. The first two. I really was confident that this was such a must win game. There was no way we would let the Knicks go up to nothing.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so there's a couple other things in stake. Big picture that we just have to acknowledge. The. The Knicks, New York. The Celtics have won all these titles. The nickel Knicks haven't won one in 52 years. The Knicks have. The last kind of great playoff moment they had against the Celtics was that 1990 game that you and I went to and Bird missed the dunk and Ewing hit the three in the corner. Yeah, they had some good ones in the early 70s. They won a couple series. The 84 Bernard versus Larry. Celtics win that one in game seven. But then there's this whole. A lot of Knicks fans are also Yankee fans. And there's really. Since the 04, the comeback. And now it feels like the Knicks knocked the Celtics out of nowhere where they're doing four or five. And now all of a sudden the Knicks, Knicks fans and the New York fans, and we know a lot of them all of a sudden get their swagger back. I'm dreading that more than anything. Even though I like the defense.

[Bill's Dad]

I'm going to say a quick story from last night's game one. Really annoying. You know, I know the Celtics draw really well on the road and it's probably annoying to those teams in Dallas or wherever. It was really annoying last night to see how many Knick fans were there at the game. It's obvious that after game one, a lot of season ticket holders sold their seats for game two because you had the blue and the orange, the terrible. Those colors that you noticed all over the arena. And then walking out in the stairs, there were Knick fans chanting and there was a pretty huge Celtic fan who went up to one of them and said, you say one more word and you're going down the stairs. And that was the end of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, no.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, so the Nick guy kind of ran quickly down the stairs. Get out of there. I mean, the Celtic fans were really upset and there were too many Nick fans chanting. It was terrible. And then.

[Waz]

And then.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds like a fun walk home.

[Bill's Dad]

No. And then the fire alarm went off.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

It was bizarre. The whole ending of the game was.

[Bill Simmons]

When you left, did you think you were going to see the Celtics team again?

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, I thought I'd see them. Game five, possibly down three to one. Yep. I knew I knew my son wouldn't be there, but I, I, it would. I cannot believe we won't take one of two games in New York.

[Bill Simmons]

But I don't know, the, the early start on Saturday. I don't know if that's good or bad. The crowd's going to be great. But the, the good thing for the Celtics is there's going to be a lot of money in that arena. And it might be a lot of may, maybe not won't be as quite as raucous of a crowd as normal.

[Bill's Dad]

There's a specific referee we'd like for.

[Bill Simmons]

Sunday afternoon, not Mark Davis, who's. Give me your top three referees you don't want to see.

[Bill's Dad]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Your guy Foster's back.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, we have.

[Bill Simmons]

He was injured for two months.

[Bill's Dad]

Oh, is that why. Yeah, yeah, I'd like to see him because he's good with your road team on the line.

[Bill Simmons]

He's good when you're down in the series. So if they blow this series, do you feel like this then gets tied into last year and people start the whole thing of, well, the only reason you won last year was because everyone was hurt and you got lucky and then the league got better this year and you didn't show up? I do feel like it opens, I don't personally believe them, but it opens these storylines. Tatum. See, this is why he got benched. And all this bad shit comes out of this.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, it does. I mean, you can have some of. Well, they won last year despite the coach. The coach lets them shoot 103 point shots in two games when they're not making the shots. Doesn't make adjustments at all during the game.

[Bill Simmons]

They have no plan B. They don't get creative at all.

[Bill's Dad]

Doesn't call a timeout and say, hey, guys, we're just not shooting well, could we go to the basket? Is that too much to ask or. You brought up a critical point before. When the other team is making a run, call a timeout out, stop the momentum. We don't do that. And then not taking the time out last night. I understand his philosophy. You know, we're in the moment. Maybe. Except it was, it was a major.

[Bill Simmons]

It's coming off of free throws, though. You call time out at that point.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, you do. It wasn't like the Knicks missed the shot and we had the momentum going down.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what you definitely don't do is don't call a timeout and then run the exact same play. Even Tibbs in the press conference after his, like, like, yeah, we figured they were probably going to try to run that play again. It's like. Yeah, I bet you did. Do you blame the new owner, Bill Chisholm?

[Bill's Dad]

No, but, you know, how did they call. They didn't call a timeout. So how come we ran the exact same play? Who, who told Tatum to do that again?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. Well, and if you're going to run the same play, you have to have. Somebody's got to pop up to the top in case he gets trapped or doubled.

[Bill's Dad]

He didn't run the same. Maybe he thought he was going to run the same play, but the middle got clogged and he ended up in the left almost out of bounds area. I couldn't even see him, he was so far out on the left.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have the proper animosity for the Knicks after watching them two games, or is it like a likable opponent?

[Bill's Dad]

No, I. It's a likeable. I mean, I have no animosity. They. They play. They've played clean. I had.

[Bill Simmons]

Orlando was rubbing your last nerve there.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah. After a couple years, they played dirty, but I don't think the Knicks play dirty. I will say that I didn't realize how good hard is. Yeah, he. He's made such a difference for them. He's. He keeps the momentum going. He gets that rebound they have to have. He makes a key shot in the corner. So he's impressed me. Brunson has always impressed me. Yeah, that guy is. I can't believe Dallas gave up on that guy or didn't re sign him. Townes pisses me off because he's got body language I hate. And without Porzingis, we're having trouble. When they have the two bigs in. They have their two bigs in and we have Cornette and Horford in. It doesn't quite match up well.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but that's where you need Tatum to basically point, center it a little bit or well.

[Bill's Dad]

And potato got. You know, he's getting defensive rebounds, but it's not helping us scoring at all.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we'll see. This is certainly this Tatum error you.

[Bill's Dad]

Think we're gonna come back to too.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the first time. I honestly don't know what to think because they took all the shots that normally took and none of them went in and they just shit the bed. Two games in a row in the last four minutes. And each of them just might have been these separate flukes that exist next to each other or something's wrong. And the only thing that makes me nervous Is the. The Porzingis thing's a real thing? Cause that's. That there. There's just a. You know, it's a domino effect of not just that, but the extra Horford minutes. Then you don't have Hauser. So the rotation all of a sudden got thinner. And now when the rotation's that thin, if Tatum's gonna suck in a game now, it feels like three times worse. Cause not a lot of backup options. You know, I thought Drew and White played like they were playing pretty hard in that game. It's not. I don't expect a ton more from those guys. And I think Jalen's 85%. You watched him all year. He's not as explosive as he was in November.

[Bill's Dad]

He's pretty. No, maybe not, but 90%. I don't think that's what hurt him last night. It's the consistent issue he has with bad hands.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

You know, when they blew that two on one layup, you know, and they clapped each other, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

You can't do that in a critical game, too.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so you're confident or you think it's over?

[Bill's Dad]

I don't think it's over because I think we're a really good road team. It will not shock me if we take both games in New York, but I'd hate to see us lose Saturday, and then we're in the same boat we were two years ago against my Miami thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Bill's Dad]

And to come back and win four straight, it's. No one's ever done it right in basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

I just can't believe we got here.

[Bill's Dad]

I can't believe we're here. You know, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Though I wasn't even that mad last night. I was. Because, you know, they won last year. So you got to factor that in. It's like, all right, keep it in perspective. We did win the title last year, but I was. I was more confused. I was just like, I don't. I just spent six months watching this team.

[Bill's Dad]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

What is happening? It was one of those. It was like, if you're just watching TV with your wife and then all of a sudden she starts speaking another language, and you're like, what's going on? That. That was how I felt for both games. Like, what do you guys do with.

[Bill's Dad]

Yeah, that. I understand that. And I felt somewhat the same way. But consistently, the last 8 minutes of the fourth quarter, we don't play the same way as the first 40 minutes or whatever. And I don't understand why. And the only person I can point my finger at is the coach. You know, coach, these are players, they need some direction. If they're shooting too many threes or not going to the basket, make them go to the basket.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds like you're going to demote them to second row again.

[Bill's Dad]

I need to be careful here.

[Bill Simmons]

Dad, I'm going to see you for game seven, Monday night, May 19th.

[Bill's Dad]

I'll be here.

[Bill Simmons]

Save my seat. Good to see you. All right. Talk to you this weekend. Bye. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Big Waz and House, thanks to my dad, thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as well. You can watch this as a video podcast on Spotify every single time. We'll be live with Rosillo on Sunday on YouTube. Check out my Bill Simmons YouTube channel. Check out the Star wars rewatchables. Don't forget we got Death Wish coming on Monday on the Rewatchables. Enjoy the weekend. I might not be enjoying it. I guess we're gonna find out. I will see you on must be 21+ in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.