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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Boston Does L.A., Honeymoon Harden, a Denver Hiccup, and a Kawhi Deep Dive With Zach Lowe
01:51:06
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Those superior moments in the game, like dropping a buzzer beater at the last second, are worth it. It feels so good. And have you noticed all the smoothest plays are served ice cold, just like Michelob Ultra. That's why Michelob Ultra. It's one of the reasons it's the official beer partner of the NBA. Or maybe it's because it's a superior light beer with a smooth, refreshing taste and only 95 calories. Or maybe it's because they're giving fans a chance to win amazing prizes, including courtside seat tickets. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary open to U.S. residence 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@mcglobaltra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from the other ad buys. You could target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. That's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return and ad spend on all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com SimmonsBill Terms and Conditions apply. Sam. All right, live on Netflix, it's the Bill Simmons Podcast. Zach Lowe is here. We're a little bit after Celtics Lakers. We had some technical difficulties, but not difficulties for Zach Lowe. We were worried the snowstorm was going to just inundate you with some sort of blizzard. And I would just be soloing for an hour and a half. But that's not what happened.
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B
We're. We're persevering. The worst is yet to come. I'm not looking forward to the shoveling that's going to have to happen here on the East Coast. Another great advertisement for life in Los Angeles, by the way.
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A
Don't throw out your back shoveling. We need you. This is pod season right now. We're about to Hit the best part. March, April, May, June. We need Zach Lowe. All right, lots to cover. We're going to start with Celtics, Lakers, because that just happened. I did not go because I was excited to be live on, on Netflix right after the game. But I was confident and the body language doctor was watching both teams very carefully. Really. A tale of two teams that game, Zach, you have a Celtic team that is basically built around these three guys, one of whom is an MVP candidate. The other are two very, very good guards and then a bunch of dudes who try hard. And that's the Celtics, but they play well together. They have, there's a spirit to them. You can see they're pulling for each other. They're used to each other. And then you watch this weird Lakers team that when they're bad, it looks really bad. Sometimes you'll catch them some nights where they're on cruise control for three quarters and then they can flip it on for a quarter and steal a game. But a lot of times it's games like today where it's a bad loss, but it almost feels worse than a loss. But the fact is it's 82 games. It's a loss. Who cares? You move on. And yet I don't love what I see from them. What is wrong with them? If you had to say, what's wrong with the Lakers?
- [04:01]
B
Well, it's another double digit loss, right? And it feels like all of their losses are double digit losses, which is why it feels so much worse than 30, 34 and 22 or whatever they are. Look, we knew like the defense was going to be a problem with, with LeBron, Luca and Reeves all together at the same time. Although I thought Luca, Luca was like the best guy they had on Peyton Pritchard tonight. Every cooked everybody else except for Luca and then, you know, like, so. So that was always going to be a problem. And just balancing offense, defense. All right, we need Smart for some defense, but he missed a million threes tonight and they left them open and they put centers on him. When the Lakers took their centers off the floor, said, all right, Kato Vuchi, just guard Marcus Smart, but don't actually guard him. Um, and then just, you know, they're an interesting team to watch game to game, particularly now that Reeves is back in the starting lineup because they have games like I've, I've seen all their recent games where the three of them are in sync to a much larger degree than they were today. And then tonight they have, they have games like tonight where it just feels like the three of them minus three or four set plays that happens after dead balls or timeouts and then just vanish. The three of them just sort of seem like they exist on their own islands within the offense, and they don't really do anything when they don't have the ball. And that's when I think the body language doctor probably perks up. Like, oh, Luke is just standing in the corner. LeBron's just standing in the corner. Where's Reeves? Reeves was invisible for three quarters of the game. So it's just like. And then they have this Ayton thing where, you know, his numbers might look good today. They didn't. And it's just every game, every other game, they JJ's just like, can I just play none of my centers? Is that okay? Like, we're going to get smoked on the glass and defensively. But it's. It's just a weird. It's not their year. We knew it wasn't going to be their year. It's not their year.
- [05:42]
A
Yeah. And yet their record is good enough that after Denver lost today, they had a chance to ascend into. We have game seven at home in round one. I don't fully understand it as I'm watching it. Like, even Friday night they beat the Clippers, right? They kind of held on. It was the same kind of typical Laker win where you never felt good about it the whole game, but you also kind of felt like they were going to win. But it's not like they were playing great and they can just have these little stretches. But I think what's weird about them, and I don't really fully understand it because I think you have three guys that are actually okay at making other guys better, as an understatement. And yet I don't feel like they make each other better. And it's a lot of, like, taking turns stuff, which maybe some of that has to do with they just haven't played enough games together. But it just feels really clumsy and it's surprising to me. And as. But as somebody who can't stand the Lakers, like, we're now, we're in March, and it still feels rocky and weird. And some of the body language stuff is weird. And I think they're realizing in real time, like, what were we thinking? Counting on Deandre Ayton. Why did we talk ourselves into this? What were we thinking?
- [06:51]
B
Well, he had a couple missed rebounds tonight where they just. I mean, like, the Celtics only had nine offensive rebounds tonight, but it felt like more than that because every one of them was so demoralizing and it was just a Celtic guy trying harder, been a Laker guy. And a couple of times it was Keda and Ayton and just Ayton deciding I'm not boxing out and Kata being like I'm just going to rampage over you and get the ball.
- [07:11]
A
Right. Kata was what they were hoping they were going to get from Ayton, right? Kata is just having a better season. He's been more consistent. It's not like he's an all star or anything, but he's pretty consistently a double double guy around that. But he tries and that's what was interesting about as this game went along. And the Celtics can just bring in their dragons off the bench, right? It's like hey, have you met Hugo Gonzalez?
- [07:32]
B
Hugo. Hugo. Everybody met Hugo tonight.
- [07:34]
A
Everybody all over the almost threw a no hitter for the last five minutes of the second quarter and then finally fell for a double fake by Reeves, Jordan Walsh. They could bring in Shireman and Hauser who are both these guys that teams feel like oh let's target this guy. And they're always a little better defensively than I think they're going to realize. But everybody in that team fights and then the big thing, I just think so. There's an MVP conversation when I have a little bit and I'm not saying Jalen's the MVP of the league, but he's just done this all year. I mean this was his 28, 30 point game which is. I think he's played 51 games. So over 50% of his games he's had 30 points he hasn't had. Sometimes you can goose your scoring average cause you had like a 63 point game or a 58 point game, he hasn't had those. I think his highest game was 50 for the most part. He's always between 27 and 33 and it's games like today he finished, I think it was 32, 87 he 3 steals. But he's been so consistent. There's a really interesting first, first all team NBA convo brewing because there's basically
- [08:43]
B
it's brewing, it's bubbling because we have
- [08:45]
A
Jokic and SGA and Luka and Jalen and Cade and then Wemby if he wants to crash the party. But the way Brunson has a chance to come on here down the show, it's and I don't know how it's going to shake out but I think right now would you have Jalen in that top five? Would you have him first team.
- [09:02]
B
I would not. I would have him first.
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A
So who would you have over him?
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B
Well, I mean the first three are sga, Jokic and Wemby if he qualifies. Right. And then I think you mentioned Cade. I would have Cade over Jalen Brown. The two guys who you didn't mention who. I feel like I'm kind of going crazy because they're always. It's probably because their teams. The perception of their teams is slightly eh. Compared to how high. How you like how the Pistons have obliterated expectations and the Celtics have obliterated expectations. Donovan Mitchell and Anthony Edwards. I would have both of them over Jalen Brown. They've had unbelievable seasons. And yeah, I realized the Cavs lost the day to the Thunder and they've been, they've been kind of met, but they are 36 and 22 and they're like DOA without Donovan Mitchell for the season. And the Wolves, I mean What a bad 24 hours for everybody behind San Antonio in the Western Conference because the Wolves are about to kick this game to Philadelphia if they haven't already. But you know, they're 35 and 22 I think or 35 and 23 maybe after this game. Good, solid team, we'll see where they end up. But like those guys numbers are unbelievable and particularly Ant is a really good two way player, but Jalen Brown's right in that sort of tier with all of those guys. I'd probably put him a little bit above Brunson, who you also mentioned because of the two way stuff. But it's a really interesting group of guys below the Jokic SGA WEMBY trio. And if one or two of those guys falls out because they don't hit 65 games, it's like we're. We're staring at complete chaos. MVP and all NBA.
- [10:33]
A
Yeah. So there's two separate conversations, right. Where we're judging people on the season. But then there's also who are the actual best guys in the league. And that's where Wemby, even though he hasn't played enough games yet, he's either the third or fourth best player in the league. Now just game to game when you're actually watching it.
- [10:50]
B
Right.
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A
Wouldn't you have him in that somewhere? If you have SJ and Jokic 1, 2, he's at least battling for the conversation of that 3, 4, 5 area.
- [10:59]
B
Yeah, for absolutely. For sure. I think 5 is the floor. Yeah. I probably would still have Giannis 3 when healthy because he's just been that dominant of a player this season, maybe the best.
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A
I forgot about Giannis.
- [11:10]
B
Yeah, but. Yeah, but that mean, like, the Bucks are. They still exist. And Giannis theoretically is going to come back. Probably is going to come back. I don't know. But yeah, Wemby is. Wemby's a monster, man. There's just no way around it. And I just think he's, you know, a little bit above those other guys.
- [11:26]
A
Well. Cause you have the MVP odds where SGA is still favored. Dropped down to minus 150 today on FanDuel because he keeps missing games. Joker is around 3 to 1. Cade went from 14 to 1, plus 6, 50. And then Wemby dropped to 25 to 1. And Cade and Wemby are the interesting ones because Wemby, they might be the one seed in the west for all we know. They're. What are they? 40 and 16 and OKC's 44 and 14. So there's only two back in the last column. It's not inconceivable. They can jump. They won 11 straight. Yeah. And they had the tiebreaker. Right. Cade's case is just. We've seen this happen a couple times in NBA history. The most famous one was Derrick Rose in 11, where it's like, I don't. This doesn't a hundred percent pass the MVP sniff test, but I can't think of anyone else to vote. And this is a one seed. This guy does everything. He does everything down the stretch. And even though the stats may not totally measure up to some of the other candidates, I'm going to talk myself into this guy because I can't come up with a better candidate. Now, the only way you would do that is if SGA doesn't get the. Get the maximum. If he doesn't get to 65, I think SGA, if he can get the maximum, is going to win the 65.
- [12:40]
B
Yeah. There's a reason he's the odds on favorite. Can I read you a crazy Clutch? Clutch. When we get into these debates and players are super close together like this, that's when I start to look at clutch games and I realize, like, all the nerds will be like, but clutch is random. It's just a small sample size. Yeah, the whole season's a small sample size. I'm splitting hairs. This is just another hair. I want to look at Cade for the season. Last five minutes of close games, 49% from the floor. That's on 75 shot attempts, only seven turnovers, 18 assists. The Pistons are plus 49 in those minutes. Monster Clutch season. That's any. Only one guy has taken more than those 75 shots, and it's Tyrese Maxey, who's been doing everything for Philly all year. He's 44 of 92. And I kept trying to find Luca. It's like. Cause, you know, the Lakers. The thing with the Lakers is they win all these close games and they lose in all these blowouts. It's like, Luka must have a really good clutch, clutch here. Luka has taken the same amount of shots in the last five minutes of close games as Chris Middleton this season. Luka is 7 of 16 on shots in the last five minutes of close games. Chris Middleton is 8 of 16. Peyton Watson checking in at 3 of 16. Jose Alvarado jumping in at 5 out of 16. I mean, that's how few clutch minutes the Lakers have actually played. It's a really remarkable stat.
- [14:03]
A
That's crazy. Well, that's one of the reasons I'm a little cooler on Mitchell, so. Because I just disagree that he's been more valuable than Jalen because the clutch stats for Mitchell aren't awesome. I also don't think, like, yeah, they had injuries the first, what, 40, 45 games, but they still had him. He still had rebounders and some people to play with. And I didn't understand why none of them. None of that was his fault. Whereas Jalen was basically playing the whole year without Tatum, and the Celtics had a better record. So I just feel like it's a record thing with that. And the Celtics have been better than the Cavs.
- [14:37]
B
I feel like I'm taking crazy on Donovan Mitchell. What am I missing? So he's averaging 29 points a game, same as Jalen Brown. Yeah, 48.6% from the field. Jaylen Brown's 48.4 going into tonight. Yeah, 37.6% on threes. Jalen Brown's 34.5. And I don't mean to put. Put the two of them against each other, but you did, so I am 58% on twos, 53% for Jalen Brown, 6 assists for Donovan Mitchell, 5 assists for Jaylen Brown. We'll call it. You know, I just don't. And Jalen Brown's a better defensive player, but I just. Because of his size, I don't think it's some enormous gap. And I kind of just. I think this season there. There are a couple ways to frame this season for the Celtics, right? Jalen Brown, he owe. Tatum's been out the whole year. He did so much with Nothing. And look, I didn't think the Celtics are going to be nearly this good. So I kind of have to half believe that. But I think what we've learned is there's an infrastructure of both talent and coaching and system here that is better than we thought it was going into the season. And in Cleveland like Darius Garland was a total zero. Basically. Like even when he played, he did not play very well. Mobley's been injured a lot. Streuss has been injured the whole season. Hunter was poop and they traded him. Jared Allen's been up and down like I. Sam Merrill was. Had a broken hand for a while and was out. I do think it's been. We can have the more with less debate. It's. It's just. But to me it's just degrees of it. Donovan Mitchell's been the only constant on that team and now they're starting to click. But. And I just think it's a. I just think it's a perception thing. Right. Like everyone was pessimistic about the Celtics and they're a feel good story. Everybody was way high on the Cavs and it feels like they're disappointing. And I just look at Donovan Mitchell's numbers and I watch him play. He's so explosive. He can get any shot he wants at any time. He's shooting well from all over the place and he never even in. Did you see the Tim Bontheim straw poll? There's like a. There's like seven guys and then there's a. And Jalen is like six or seven and then there's just a chasm and then like one guy or two guys. Put Donovan Mitchell third place. Like what, what am I, what am I missing?
- [16:40]
A
Can I counter now?
- [16:41]
B
Yeah.
- [16:43]
A
Jalen has been awesome as a two way player and as a consistent day to day, week to week force.
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B
No one is feeling that.
- [16:53]
A
No, but listen, I feel like this gets lost sometimes when we talk about seasons especially it's the week to week consistency that we throw away. It's like just durability. I always value, I think more than some of the other people that vote for this award. Like The Celtics started at 03. They are 36 and 16 since. 37 and 16 since. And he's always been there. He's. If he's taken a game off, it's one game and he's back. He's guarded some of the best guys in the league and taking the challenge. Sometimes like when they play the Pistons, he guards Cade. You know, like if, if this game was I think they were saving him for the fourth quarter tonight, but I think they would have put him on Luka when they went against the Clippers. He guarded Kawhi like he's taken that challenge. And I think when you know what you're getting from a guy night to night on both ends, we're getting probably 30 from this guy and he's going to play real hard defense and he's going to go to the basket. The part that I never really fully thought that he had until this year was a sense of the rhythm of the game. And you could see it today in a couple spots when he would push the pace because the Lakers, that's their weakness, right? Sometimes they don't run back. They don't want to do this at all. And there were some times when he's just like, I'm getting in the basket. Like we can kind of go for the kill here. I don't know if he was as smart of a player like that offensively. I just didn't fully think he was there until this year. So I just think when I watch everything, there's a mastery to what he's doing game to game. That I think is the biggest reason they're successful. That and the, and the two guards that have always. One of them can seems to get hot for an hour. I don't really, the stats don't back it up, but it's like today it was Pritchard, right? He just kind of got hot for an hour. Then the next game it might be Derek White. But I just think what Jalen's doing has been really impressive.
- [18:48]
B
Would you have him over Anthony Edwards?
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A
It's that this is why I brought this up. I think this is really going to be fun.
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B
It's going to be a thinker to me.
- [18:59]
A
Mitchell's not first team, but I think Edwards, it's Edwards and Jalen and Wemby probably for one spot is how this is going to come. Unless somebody misses.
- [19:08]
B
You're just like, Luka's just all first team. It's going to be, it's going to be interesting, isn't it? Like it's just someone, someone awesome is not going to be first team, all NBA if everyone's eligible.
- [19:20]
A
If Luka misses, like he has another stretch or he misses four to five games maybe, but there's, there's a level that he goes to. Even, even today there was like a little two minute stretch where he's just like, I'm just gonna post this guy up. But I'm offended That you're guarding me with him. And, and when he misses, it's surprising. Um, but he can have. I didn't think he was good today and he still ended up with like 27. Um, the foul, the foul. Bitching stuff is the worst it's been in a while.
- [19:50]
B
It's back to peak. It's back to peak unwatchability. It's every single play now. It's. It's back to where it was at, at its very worst in Dallas when it got so bad that the Mavs had to finally call him out publicly.
- [20:01]
A
Yeah, it's so bad that even LeBron's like, wow, wow, what's this guy? This guy's really bitching for calls, but I don't think it helps him. I mean, big picture from a Lakers standpoint, like, why did they get Alvarado? Why didn't they do anything? Why did they think Marcus Smart was somebody? Like, did they have aspirations to actually be good this year?
- [20:27]
B
Good use of the word aspirations, by the way.
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A
Not with the Clippers.
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B
I think they had aspirations to be good. I think that's probably. If you caught them in a real moment. That's probably about where their aspirations ended. And their aspirations are focused mostly on this summer when they have three first round picks to trade. But to your point, the Knicks got Alvarado without giving up a first round pick. The Lakers got Luke Kennard. And I enjoyed on the broadcast today how they're just. The whole NBC crew was aghast that Luke Kennard, percentage wise, the best or second or third best three point shooter of all time is only taking like four, four and a half threes per game as a Laker, like, that's unacceptable. I'm like that, welcome to the Luke Kennard experience. It looks awesome on paper. And then he doesn't shoot enough to justify the lack of. This is every. This is why he's on the Lakers. After being on a million other teams,
- [21:14]
A
you've had a few awesome on paper. Don't get too carried away by the signing guys. And I think he would be the point guard on the team. I don't know who else is on that team. Ayton's been on there, but it's almost not fair to put him on. But there's just certain guys who look better on paper. Luke Kennard, I got sucked in. I thought when they got him, I was like, perfect, perfect trade. But the guy to get was Alvarado, who. I don't also know where the Celtics were on that one either. That's what they give up Dalen, they gave up Terry and two second round picks and got a guy who played crunch time last night in the Rockets game.
- [21:50]
B
I don't think the Rockets played crunch time in that game. I think it was just the Knicks 50 at crunch time. But yeah, so Isai Alvarado was one of the five and had back to back steals, a layup that I'm still not sure how he made it over a much larger player in transition. It was an incredible shot. But yeah, and obviously the crowd loves him already.
- [22:08]
A
And that's the thing. I mean I would have, if I was a gm, I would have traded for him two months ago if I had any sort of playoff aspirations crossed with a home crowd. Cause that's like just your. Like we saw it, we saw it in the brief moments when the Pelicans have mattered over the last couple years. Like you see what that guy is. He's perfect. The thing that was shocking about Knicks Rockets last night was they actually got away with playing him and Brunson together.
- [22:32]
B
They do it a lot. They played the two of them and Shamet together too. But against the Rockets
- [22:38]
A
I was surprised. I was like whoa. And it worked.
- [22:42]
B
It did. It was not a good night for the Rockets. Not a good night. I think I. I don't know if you want to talk that one out, but another, another bad crunch time performance by the Rockets, who had I think nine turnovers in the fourth quarter. And they ranged from Shen Goon threw the ball to nobody. There was a backcourt violation, the Durant dribbled the ball off his foot. I think at one point it was just every manner of, you know, all right, we got nothing. Sengun just ISO from the three point arc with eight on the shot clock and dribble 14 times and maybe something good will happen. And something good never happened.
- [23:11]
A
I was on two different text threads this morning with Celtic fans. All of us kind of getting PTSD for the IMA season that the Celtics had when it would go bad and it would just get stagnant and nobody moved and there would be no solutions to a defense kind of figuring out the offense. Cause I've been on this. Legler was on this podcast like five or six weeks ago and he was talking about the Rockets and he mentioned how frustrated he was by how they used Thompson. And he was like, they really only used him trying to go downhill and beating guys one on one or trying to get to the rim or kicking out. And he was like, I don't understand why they don't post him up. He'd be so devastating around the rim. They never do it. And I think his skill set, especially when he's being defended by smaller people, I think his skill set lends itself to that. I don't know why they don't do it. You're watching yesterday, he either had Alvarado or Brunson on him and it was like the perfect example of like just put him near the block and run the offense through him. Because the Knicks are going to have to double that immediately. I don't. They just kind of get stagnant and then just throw it to Durant and cross their fingers. Seems to be their offense. Unless they throw it this shangun. Same thing.
- [24:23]
B
I'll tell you what I was thinking as the meltdown happened in the fourth quarter is, look, I understand why IME Udoka may be a little hesitant to trust Reed Shepard as much as he trusts his core guys who all have the same sort of skill set. Big rangy defense, first players. Yeah. I just think there are games where Reed Shepherd's got to play more. And when your offense is just going off the rails like that because you're not running anything, I just think you bring him in for Jabari Smith Jr. Atari, Eason and just, all right, we're going to run some Reed Shepherd Sengun two man game. Reed Shepherd Durant two man game. Loosen things up. Like all of a sudden, boom, stuff opens up and like good things happen. And I understand defensively he's going to get picked on a little bit, but he can guard Jose Alvarado. He's got good hands, he makes plays. I think they're going to. They're going to have. Maybe it was last night. They're just going to have to cross the Rubicon at some point of like, this guy's either a huge part of our team or, or. Or we're just putting that off for another year. Cause there are games that just scream for. With Van Vliet out, we need, we need more of this guy in the game. And last night, that's as it was happening. That's all I was thinking. It was like they should just. Can you put him back in the game?
- [25:29]
A
Well, I, I wholeheartedly agree and I would even one up you. I think if they don't do it, they are a crossoff team for the playoffs. I don't see it. I don't see it happening with them. With the way they're. They're built. They don't get transition when he's not in there. Right. They just slow down. They don't get fast breaks anymore. He opens the court for them and then on top of it, what you just mentioned, like they can run two man stuff with them but it's like the ceiling of the team. He just makes it higher. And if they're not going to get there this year with him, then they're not going to get there anyway. It's certainly not going to happen with the team they have. I don't really understand it because you're just throwing away fast breaks for basically the entire fourth quarter.
- [26:09]
B
Well, and, and that's one of the frustrate that not frustrating. That's one of the sort of inter like built in, the built in dissonance of the Rockets and every team has some built in dissonance. But like Reed Shepard and Amen Thompson are born to play fast like they are born to fly up and down the court and Reed shepherd should be shooting lots of threes and Amen Thompson is a speed demon and the rest of the team just doesn't play like that. They're more of a just battering ram of offensive rebounding and slow it down ISO basketball. It's just such an interesting push and pull.
- [26:37]
A
These older guys, you have these old famous superstars who are just used to this is how I play guys. I like to play this style and we're going to do that. And I think as you get older it just gets tougher to move into a different thing. This has not been a great Kevin Durant week. I'm going to say it was in the bottom five Kevin Durant weeks, the ranking power rankings probably in the maybe worst three.
- [27:01]
B
It's not been good. It's not been good. How are you? Can I ask you a Celtics question?
- [27:05]
A
Yeah.
- [27:05]
B
Since we're coming off Celtics, Lakers.
- [27:07]
A
Yeah.
- [27:07]
B
How, how are you feeling? Two weeks into the Vuch experience, today was not good.
- [27:14]
A
Today was one of those. They might actually won by 30 if Luka Garza was playing. But I, I, it's going to be rocky. It's going to be up and down. There's some nights when he looks 35 and I don't mean that as a compliment where it's just like the rebound's over his head and he's a step slow and you just lose athleticism and a whole bunch of stuff. Then there's other nights when it looks great. I think it's certainly worth the experiment, but I don't know. I haven't been wowed. I won't be bouncing My grandkids on my lap, telling them about the vouch trade of 2026. Probably not happening. But as the two part with Tatum, it still makes sense to me.
- [27:55]
B
Are you getting nervous that there seems to be like a Ramona Shelburne? I talked to Jason Tatum and he wants to make clear he's not sure, 100% sure he's coming back, or Chris Haynes tweets. Are you starting to get nervous that this may not happen?
- [28:10]
A
No, because if he, if he doesn't feel good about coming back, I don't want him to come back.
- [28:14]
B
Okay, so you're good either this, you're good either way. You just want him to do this?
- [28:17]
A
I want him to feel good about it. I just think they're covering all their bases and trying not to get people's hopes up. The Missoula. I don't know if you've seen the Missoula press conferences, but they've been riveting.
- [28:26]
B
What has he said about it?
- [28:27]
A
Well, there was one today where somebody was like, was Jason out there practicing today? And he's like, yes, he was. Or he was like, was he out there for practice today? He was like, yes. And the follow up question was, was he playing with the team? And Missoula just didn't answer and stared at the guy like a fucking maniac and just didn't answer. So they basically, their strategy is, we're not talking about it. You can ask us, we're not telling you, but I think he's coming back. Unless there's some sort of setback, I don't think they make the Vuch trade.
- [29:04]
B
Otherwise, I don't him practicing would seem to suggest that the Vuch trade, no matter how much they try to sort of funnel it through in the media, that this was a trade we were going to make anyway. It's not connected. Like, I don't 100% believe that. And I believe this. They have the negotiation tactic, like who blinks first? Or if you're interviewing someone, you ask them a question, and if they don't want to answer it and they're silent, you don't, don't jump in. Just let the silence just live there. Joe Missoula is going to wait anyone out. Joe Missoula will win that content. He will stare at that dude until the PR guy's like, all right, next. I guess we're done, guys. Next question.
- [29:38]
A
You got that? You definitely got that feeling. Well, I look at the minutes today. Hugo played 14, Walsh played 7, Pritchard played 37. And you would think 22 of those minutes go to Tatum when he's back. That would be my guess. So basically Gonzalez is out and Pritchard probably loses 10 and that's how you do it. Or Walsh is out, Gonzalez is cut in half and that's how you get the minutes. We're going to take a break. We have a lot more discuss here on these Sunday night pre Blizzard Extravaganza Context the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The football season may be coming to an end, but things are only getting started on the court, on the hardwood, on the wood as some people call it. Fanduel the number one choice for same game parlays, live betting and much more during the NBA season. Don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game 21 in President in select states or 18 in President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Venmo. Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Sign up@venmo.com collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA Select Schools available Venmo Stash Bundle terms and exclusions apply at Venmo me stash terms max $100 cash back for adults with
- [31:34]
C
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- [32:34]
A
this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Imagine a game where you're on the court solo. No coach, no teammates, no one in the stands. Stressful, right? Sometimes life can feel like that too. That's when State Farm they show up. They're on the bench ready to help you find the right coverage when it matters most, through an agent online or even on the app State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business, so visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas per month. Detroit first in the East, Celtics second Right now, one win more than the Knicks and the Cavs. Nobody else is going to crack that top four. Does it matter? Does home court matter as much as it used to with this stuff? Because I feel like last year we hit the point where it felt like anybody could win on any court. And I don't know how that's changed from when in the 80s all you wanted to do is get game seven at home and even maybe in the 90s. But now we've hit a point. I don't even know if it necessarily matters. If the Celtics are 2, 3, 4, if the Knicks are 3, 4, 2, does it matter?
- [34:11]
B
I think it still matters. It definitely matters less than it used to for. I don't even know, a bunch of different reasons, everything from the three point shot to travel conditions. All things considered, I'd still like to have it. But I think it probably gets outranked now by matchups. If there's a matchup that's just bad for you or you want to avoid or whatever the case, whatever it is, if there's a pathway to the conference finals that is easier than the other one, that is your alternative. I think that trumps if you sacrifice home court to get that pathway. I think you would, you would probably do that in some cases and this may be one of them. I mean these teams are all, they're all sort of unproven in their own ways, right? I don't think any of Them is totally scared of any of the other four or any of the other three. But all things considered, I think Detroit is super happy that they will have Game 7 of any playoff series at home.
- [35:01]
A
Yeah. And that ship has sailed. Fear the Celtics and you fall to four and you get to play Detroit in round two, a team that you've had some really good games against and matched up pretty nicely with. And then you could have the Knicks and Cavs beat the hell out of each other in round two. I wonder if. I don't. I don't think they would be tears if that was how it played out. And then I wonder, like, who do you think? Like, who do the Knicks not want to play the most? Would you say to trade?
- [35:33]
B
Well, this is sort of the same thing happened last year with Detroit and New York, where Detroit won the regular season series and New York beat him in the playoffs. And we all kind of agreed New York was more talented and should have won that series, but Detroit has just pants them three times this year. And the Knicks can say, well, Towns was out this game and Anunoby was out that game and Robinson was out with one of them in one of the games. That's all true. But like, all of them have been blowouts and Detroit just has out toughed them out, out fought them, outplayed them in every possible way. So I think that would be. And the Knicks have enjoyed playing against Cleveland dating to the playoffs three years ago. So they would probably say, we don't care, it's fine. But Detroit has to be in their heads a little bit. Just, are we as tough and together as that team is? Because that was the really impressive thing, watching Detroit up close at Madison Square Garden last week. Like, they don't have a lot of shooting. We know that. We know that. That's like the weak spot that everyone expects to be, including me, a little bit more of a hindrance in the playoffs than it is in the regular season. We know they make up for it with like cutting and offensive rebounding and smart interior passing, but it's just, it's one thing on TV and then it's another thing in person. Like they didn't have Duran or Stewart in that game against the Knicks from the suspensions. And like, even their role players, like Javante Green comes in and just moves the ball. Like, they all make the right pass, they all make the extra pass, they all make quick decision. Caris Lavert is making quick decisions. Duncan Robinson, quick decisions. Dennis Jenkins. No one is holding the ball other than Cade and There's a certain like that level of cohesion and trust and pace within the half court really does compensate for their sort of lack of shooting compared to the other elite teams. They're really, really pop. They're polished. They're more polished than they have any right to be. Given that they're still pretty young and inexperienced. And I think that will carry over into the playoffs. I think they got a lot of the playoff like jitters out of the way last year against the Knicks and they're, they're, they're ready, I think they're ready to make the finals.
- [37:31]
A
It's a little like OKC when they lost that Dallas series. What was that two years ago. But it was the best thing probably got got them ready for next year. The Pistons at least had that one series. Maybe my, my Hornets will have the same thing in their feisty 18 battle against the Pistons.
- [37:49]
B
Well, they, they won tonight, right?
- [37:51]
A
They did.
- [37:51]
B
LaMelo went crazy.
- [37:52]
A
So they had really hard win against Washington's G league team.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah. If they had split their previous they had lost to Cleveland and someone else. Good.
- [38:01]
A
Two tough, two tough late fourth quarter games. Yeah. Two really good teams.
- [38:06]
B
I wish they had won one of those because just for entertainment purposes, I want them to butt up into the 78 bracket. Yeah. And Philly quietly is slipping down from they're still six but they're just a game ahead and actually tied with Orlando in the lost column. And that if that were a four team race for six that would be quite a lot of fun. And if Charlotte could butt their way into that, it would be quite a lot of fun. But that's another, that's another thing about you mentioned home court. Like I in the play in era more than ever. I think the number one seed should be able to pick its opponent from who comes out of the play. And I don't want to get stuck with like oh, Embiid is healthy and suddenly the Sixers are awesome and we just drew them in the eighth seed. I think you should get the pick.
- [38:46]
A
I would not do that. But I would do five home games in round one for the one seeds.
- [38:51]
B
I like that too. Reward. If, if, if we're going to have this over long regular season and we're going to pound our fist about we must care about it. You can't low advantage. You can't tank. We value durability. Well then really reward it then.
- [39:02]
A
Yeah. Like go two, two, three for round one. It's like if you want to go play in and then go against the One seed. You're going to have to really beat them. One more thing on Detroit, Boston, Knicks, Cleveland. And we're about to talk to Cleveland. I think Cleveland has just liked playing Boston for years. I don't know what it is, but it's a matchup. They like. There's been some rough Celtics losses over the years. So Cleveland last 25, 19 and 6. Second offensive rating. Harden honeymoon. Harden stage is always great. We'll see how it's doing in round two. But the one thing that I've noticed, because they just, you know, they look better partly because they have more good players because as you said earlier, Garland didn't play all year, but they always have now somebody good, really, really good with the ball for 48 minutes, right? Mitchell comes out. It's like Harden stay out there and run the offense for us. Harden's averaging a 24, 10 and 5 and he's shooting 48% from 3. It's pretty good as like you're, hey, can you run the offense for a few minutes? So there's a pressure that they can put on now for two and a half hours that I think just feels a little different. And then the other thing is the lobs. Like Harden already in, what's it been, six games. It's like, hey, Jared Allen, remember when he used to get lobs? Hey, Evan Mobley, lobster. It's just, it feels like it's opened up and they're the team. I think they're the scariest team in the East. All due respect to Detroit, I agree with everything you said about Detroit, but the ceiling for Cleveland is the highest.
- [40:36]
B
I think you might be right on the ceiling because of, you know, we've barely seen Harden, Mitchell, Mobley, Allen and the two way possibilities of that foursome
- [40:49]
A
and shoot with, with a bunch of shooters like Strust will be back at some point.
- [40:53]
B
Merrill will be saying, I mean, I'm not, I'm not. We're 60 games into the season and it's like they hope to have Streuss back for the playoffs. I'm just so wary of like, we think he'll be back for the playoffs. I'm, I'm wary of stuff like that now in my old age of like. Yeah, I've kind of, I've kind of heard that one before and it's a lot to ask, right? Merrell's there. They got Keon Ellis, Dennis Schroeder. Dennis Schroeder's a weird, a weird fit in some of their lineups. But you, you might Be right. I think they've got a lot to learn just about how the play together. And this Mobley minutes restriction is kind of like we just don't see him and Alan play much together. And I want to see a little bit more of them refamiliarizing with that and with Harden. But look, I mean they've got all the tools. They were a 60 win team last year that ran into the Pacers buzzsaw and had a bunch of injuries and now why should they pace the scariest team?
- [41:43]
A
Yeah. Now last 25 games around a 60 win pace again they turned Hunter who
- [41:48]
B
was just terrible and out for the season. The whole King's out for the season
- [41:53]
A
and then Garland who wasn't playing turned them into Harden who plays all the time and Schroeder who we've seen in playoff series and you know, he's been in almost every team in the league at this point, but he's better than somebody who doesn't play at all. The Harden thing has reached a point because I'm scared of Cleveland where I just have to keep reminding myself that James Harden's on that team and there will be a playoff series where maybe he can do James Harden things. But Honeymoon Harden's a pretty potent thing.
- [42:21]
B
He's had some of his greatest playoff moments and there have been some against your team that Philly. The Celtics series from a couple seasons ago with which Celtics won in seven was. Was he had two. Game one and four. I think two. Two of his finest playoff moments.
- [42:37]
A
Can I say I'm going to shock you and just be super positive about James Harden.
- [42:41]
B
Yeah,
- [42:44]
A
I mean he's one of the 40. I forget where he is in my pyramid. I think I have him in the 40 in the 30s. Right. So he's one of the best 40 players of all time. He's also somebody that has been in situations where everything had to revolve around him, which was both the strength and the flaws of all those Houston teams where everything ran through them for better or worse. It's really interesting when he can just jump into different basketball situations and he's like a basketball chameleon and he just becomes like a different version of himself overnight. He has this very. And we saw it in Brooklyn too on your greatest theoretical team ever where there's this unselfish facilitator. I don't really need the ball and I'm just fun to play with. James Harden, that's like this alter ego he has. It's almost like the name should be like Jimmy it's like, oh, it's Jimmy
- [43:33]
B
Hardin, Jimmy Honey, Jimmy Honeymoon, Harden. That's how he starts on all these. I'm just going to be. I'm just here to help out. Just here to help out.
- [43:42]
A
I really like that version of James Harden. It's easily my favorite version. I'm just here to make everyone else better and fit in. Is really fun to watch and I just kind of wish he played like
- [43:52]
B
that because of his size and his vision. I think he actually has the ability to make life easier for Donovan Mitchell than Darius Garland did. I think Mitchell is going to get easier sort of closeouts and and gaps to attack and easier catch and true threes than Garland could give him. And Harden is just a different kind of pitch than the Cavs have had. Just like a bulkier slowdown physical. He's just like Garland was part of like more part of the system that Kenny Atkinson and Jordan Ott and all them built of like all this cuts and ball moon and motion and do this because he was small and more of a shooter. Harden is just as he would put it, he is the system and he can be a different sort of system for them. Just like a change up when Mitchell bench and I like that. I think this look, these four teams are all really good and they also all have other than Detroit, I think moments where you're like can I. Can I really trust this team? Like certainly the Knicks have moments like that.
- [44:52]
A
I think Detroit playing them over and over again for two weeks would eventually be a detriment for them because so much relies on Cade. I think that's going to be their fatal flaw. Ultimately I just don't see a second guy I really trust too hard to just have one. And this has been what's killed Harden over the years. It's with you know, Lucas had more playoff success recently than Harden probably has. But same thing where it's just see the same thing over and over and over again. I think teams get used to it in a different way, but we'll see. A team that I didn't think I had to worry about was Denver. Who is. What do you think their record is in the last 32 games?
- [45:30]
B
Well, I know they're 3 and 6 in their last nine games and they were what 9 and 6 with without Jokic. So I'll go 16 and 16.
- [45:38]
A
That's their answer.
- [45:39]
B
Hey look at that.
- [45:40]
A
They're a.500 team for 32 games now. There are reasons for that. Jokic missed a bunch of games. Aaron Gordon's out they were getting this incredible out of nowhere Peyton Watson season that he got hurt. They don't have Gordon and Watson. There's some. They got screwed today by this little known thing that the Gamblers love. When it's three games and four nights and the fourth game is a day game.
- [46:01]
B
It's like Cleveland as well.
- [46:03]
A
Cleveland as well. It's like death. It's. It's a really bad thing for the team that's playing the 3 and 4. Their last six losses they lost to Detroit twice by 2 and 3. I watched both of those games. They could have won both of them. They didn't. OKC beat them by 10. They lost to Cleveland by two. Could have won that, lost to the Clips by one. I still don't know how they didn't win that. And today they were handily winning Golden State. Beating Golden State. Jokic looked like he was on his way to a 35, 20, 20. And then all of a sudden Golden State had that weird thing where just guys started getting hot. Al Horford left his body for about 20 minutes. Curry was on the bench doing like crazy. Curry yells and all of a sudden golden state was up 8 and Denver lost again. Their last win against a good team. January 7th, Boston in Boston. And that was without Jokic. They do not have a lot of good wins here. And I'm still not going to panic because they don't have Aaron Gordon and I'm not going to freak out about this. Where are you?
- [47:05]
B
Well, that's where the panic is is that are they going to get him back? Because even with Watson back and Cam Johnson is now back and Watson's not, they don't have enough force, I don't think. And that's like there's no right now with Watson and Gordon out. There's almost no limit to how small you can play against the Nuggets other than Jokic, who you obviously need size for. And there's. Because there's just nobody to punish your smaller guards on the block, on the glass, the way Aaron Gordon would seal for post ups against smaller guys that like swung quarters of important playoff series for them. And I think they just need that level of forcefulness that they don't really have another vehicle for in their starting fiverr in their core group other than Balanchinas and Jokic. And their defense just hasn't been good all year. They're 22nd in defense today. They were bad defensively against the Clippers. They were bad defensively. Like they've just have too many miscommunications they now David Adelman after the game, I was reading, you know, Draymond Green was ruled out shortly before the game. And the Nuggets tried to be like, well, one of the reasons we acted like Al Horford had never shot a, a pick and pop three before, like we had no idea what to do. Oh my God, this guy's shooting threes. And their whole defense collapses. Guys are running into each other, rotating. The wrong place is they were prepared for Draymond Green to start and not Al Horford. But like, like you shouldn't. A pick and pop three from a 39 year old center should not send your entire defense into a frenzy of mistakes. And it just happened over and over and over again. It's like. And then they got back cut left and right. They miss Reese Strother as a I, I, as you know, I own property on Strother Straits. I have for a long time. Still kind of a train wreck defensively staying in scheme. Like it just wasn't. Their defense has not had the, the polish. Like early in the season they were playing on a string, they were playing together, they were toggling between zone and man. And they looked every bit like a team that was ready for a championship season. And somewhere along the way they've kind of become a little incoherent and it could just be. I actually put this to you as an even more experienced NBA watcher than I am. Is this just a wake us up in the playoffs kind of thing or it like we've been here so many times or is this.
- [49:16]
A
I don't think it is.
- [49:17]
B
The other thing is, like, I know he got injured and missed a lot of time and got hot after a slow start. I just don't feel Cam Johnson's presence enough in these games. I just like he's reaching like your famous Tobias Harris. Like, oh, he was out there status and Tobias has been out. Tobias has been out there. Tobias has been doing his thing. So just forgive me, Tobias Harris, but these games go by and I'm like, oh, Cam Johnson played. That's right. He was two of seven in the box score. And I forgot that he played.
- [49:44]
A
I was, this is going to be the number one thing I said after as my comeback. I don't. Cam Johnson, I saw it in person on Thursday. I sat, I went, I had good seats. It was courtside right next to the Nuggets bench for Thursday's game. And Cam Johnson, like, everyone's around. I was like, oh, there's Cam Johnson. Like, I like And I'm at the game and I just forgot he was out there for long stretches. His stats are okay. Like he's shooting 43% from 3.
- [50:09]
B
Just doesn't feel like it yet.
- [50:10]
A
When I watch it, I don't feel like Porter, who drove everybody crazy, but you always kind of felt Porter in the game for better and worse. And Cam Johnson had like two big threes near the end there where he missed both of them. I didn't think either of them were going in. I just thought he was going to be this like plug and play, awesome swing, three point shooter for them. And he hasn't been. That's one issue. Crunch time stats are pretty rough for them, surprisingly, when you have jokic, their bottom five defensive rating for 30 games now, bottom five. Like you have teams that are tanking and their bottom five. So it's a tough one because they have the championship pedigree and they have one of the. They have the best player in the world. I think Rich Paul thinks it's Anthony Edwards. We can argue about that later.
- [50:59]
B
I did see that I want to. And I was waiting for Max to push back and say Jokic his name. And Max did. And I wanted the discussion to go a little further than that.
- [51:08]
A
I respected that. The best thing about a take like that is you have to at least see the take. So he explained it. He's like, I think the best part in the league should play both sides two way guys. That's what I value. And you could make the case with Edwards, like conference finals, two straight years. He's getting better. His stats are up there with pretty much everybody in the league and he plays defense and he's better when it matters. But Jokic is the best part in the league, in my opinion.
- [51:38]
B
Every time I'm ready to trust the Timberwolves and I do trust them, they
- [51:41]
A
do what they did tonight.
- [51:42]
B
They. They lost by 27 to the Sixers tonight. No Gobert. Gobert was suspended. I forgot about that.
- [51:49]
A
But yeah, with Denver. So as you said, I'm an experienced watcher, which is a nice way of saying I'm old. Door A is. God damn it. Why did I not realize that when Gordon came back this team was going to be a championship team? I'm so stupid. Door B is they were telling us all season what they were and we were ignoring the science over and over and over again. And why did we think Gordon was coming back to the playoffs? And I don't really know the answer, but there are these two doors that are really far away from each other. And the big winner to me is okc if they can figure out a way to basically avoid Denver completely. Right. Which it seems like there's a chance there's a Denver, Minnesota 3, 6, which seemed inconceivable even or Denver Minnesota 4, 5, there's some sort of matchup where Denver or Minnesota could take each other out in round one. And I bet OKC is rooting for that would be my guess.
- [52:47]
B
And we need to get some clarity on this A.J. mitchell thing. By the way, I know he's not perceived as a big part of what Oklahoma City does and they just got Jared McCain to kind of be this spark plug scorer creator. AJ Mitchell is an awesome player and has not played now for a long time. And I don't really get like the timetable's gotten a little murky. But yeah, I mean they and the spurs.
- [53:06]
A
It's an injury, right?
- [53:07]
B
It's an injury. Yeah. And the spurs have won what, eight games in a row and how that.
- [53:12]
A
No, the spurs have won 11 games in a row, haven't they?
- [53:14]
B
Are they. They up to 11? I don't know. Those standings on ESPN say eight, but anyway. And yeah, but how those seedings three to six shake out is going to be really interesting. And that we should at least mention. The other big thing that happened in regards to that this weekend was Dylan Brooks broke his hand and the Suns now have a much harder time sort of trying to punch into that group, which I think, I think they were cap gonna be capable of. Of giving it a real run. And maybe they still are. But that's a huge loss given on top of Booker's loss too.
- [53:43]
A
So I went on a big walk. I started with my wife and my son and came back and watched the fourth quarter of Phoenix. Who are they playing?
- [53:52]
B
Orlando.
- [53:53]
A
Phoenix. Orlando. I ended up doing a tweet about it because it was the weirdest game I've watched all season. It was an all time rock fight. Jalen Green at one point was 4 for 24 and was so bad I almost couldn't believe it. I couldn't. It was to the point where it's like they got to take him out. Like this is like watching a pitcher who can't throw strikes. He wasn't just missing jump shots, he was like front rimming. They were going right, they were going left. He was just a complete mess. And then in the end of the second OT driving crazy, basket makes it and then hits a buzzer beater falling out of bounds and finishes 6 for 26. And it was one of those games where Phoenix is just. Cause they know they're not going to book it for a couple of weeks. They're just like we gotta let Jalen Green work this rust off because we have no other chance to create a shot. Orlando's playing crazy defense. So Phoenix is getting like no good shots. And then we go to the other end and it was just that Palo ball that is just awful to watch. Everybody's standing around and Orlando blows another one. And that's the one team I hate advocating for coaching change but that's the one team where it seems like the coach has taken the team as far as he can take them. Would be my expert analysis.
- [55:08]
B
Well, also no Suggs in that game. But like no Suggs is semi regular condition for the Orlando Magic and no Franz.
- [55:14]
A
50 game a year player at this point. Yeah. And Franz is hurt for we don't
- [55:17]
B
know how long but it does. I mean we've gone over this a bunch but it does feel like this is the year from hell for the Magic when they had year from heaven expectations. And I, I just think a couple of seismic things could happen if they, if they don't get out of the play in. That's a disaster. If they get. Do get out of the play in and they just get rolled four one or four zero in the first round and it's just not competitive. I think I. All bets are off.
- [55:43]
A
Well, Verno texted this to us because Verno, Memphis has the pick. I hadn't thought of this, but they have like it's a choice. It's the second best pick between Washington, Orlando and Phoenix.
- [55:53]
B
I think you know what it is. It's. It's complicated enough where I'm like, just tell me after the season which pick they get.
- [55:59]
A
Well, whatever, whatever. Whatever the complications are. You thought it was going to be Phoenix's pick. It might be Orlando's pick. Although now Phoenix loses Dylan Brooks and Devin Booker. So who knows? Yeah. So then you have the west where you have six playoff teams and Phoenix was supposed to be the seventh but could go in a little free fall here. Golden State. I have no idea what to make of them. And then the Clippers, who. I was there for the, for the math. Rence. Oh, Matthew Renaissance.
- [56:31]
B
Not sure that's going to catch on. But you, you, you do you. You're a big Matheran fan.
- [56:35]
A
Just. I am. And there was just a bunch of Clipper fans there who were not familiar with his work, kind of looking at each other going, what's Going on right now as he was just taking guys one on one. I kind of like their team when Garland comes back. We did a bet me, House and Sal and Hench did Clippers to make the playoffs. Golden State not to make. It was like almost 2 to 1. And we did that on Friday because it was like this. Yeah, you don't have Zubots. You can patch together some center minutes, but you're going to have Garland back hopefully in two weeks. You have Matheran kind of doing this weird hardened imitation. You have Kawhi playing as well as anyone in the league. You have a good coaching staff. You have a team that's been winning and they don't have their pick. So why not? Like it's not a team I'd be crazy about seeing in the 2, 7 matchup. I'll just say that.
- [57:23]
B
Well, I mean there's six. They're. They're on the verge of going from six and 21 to 500 with by game 60, which is a very hard thing to do. And they're just subjectively a pretty solid team. And you know, the drama, I mean, unfortunately there's. It would be very hard for them to get out of the play. And so the drama is can they catch the warriors for eighth and get into the upper half of the play in bracket? But yeah, I mean, look, Garland. Garland is, you know, I gotta see it like, I gotta see it consistently before I'm like, we just pencil him into the Chris Dunn starting spot and everything's gonna be great.
- [57:58]
A
You know what? Garland is an actual point guard, which they do not have on the roster. No, that was really noticeable on, on Thursday. They're just running offense through Matheran and Kawhi.
- [58:08]
B
It would be great. They have some defensive questions to answer that right now. They just don't play any weak defenders pretty much. I mean, they just play like Dunn and Derrick Jones Jr. Who's been awesome but underrated. Part of their sort of good play lately is that he's back. So. But yeah, that he'd be a great addition to their team. He'd make them one guy deeper and they'd be a pretty, pretty dangerous team.
- [58:29]
A
You know what surprised me about Thursday night? Denver wanted the game and was really into it. And I don't think Jokic loves the Clippers. I don't know what the genesis of it is, but every time I've. I try to go every time Jokic plays the Clippers, every time he really wants the game and he's really into it and I don't know didn't. Did they lose to them in the bubble? Is that what it was?
- [58:49]
B
No, it was the Clippers 31 and collapsed in dramatic fashion against the nickname.
- [58:54]
A
I don't know what the genesis is, but Denver was playing super hard, was really into it and wanted it and the Clippers won anyway. So I don't know. It seems like they're five behind Phoenix right now for the seventh spot.
- [59:10]
B
But that's a game, that's a matchup where you feel the absence of Aaron Gordon because they just don't have anyone to guard Kawhi. He's too big and strong. And you could say Watson put Watson on him when he's healthy, that Watson is a guy who guards guards really well. He guards fast guys really well. He'd give Kawhi some issues because he's Peyton Watson. But there are just matchups where if you fall into the wrong place, you really feel Aaron Gordon's absence.
- [59:35]
A
So Raheem on the Ringer gambling show on Friday had this great stat about have you heard of the 4020 rule?
- [59:45]
B
Is that. Is that. Oh, the 40 wins before 20 losses.
- [59:49]
A
Right. And every champion since. I forget what year. There's only been four times where somebody didn't hit the 4020 and one of them was the post Covid season. But it was like I've read the 95 Rockets, I think the 04 Pistons, maybe the 06 Heat. But usually 40 20, you have to get to 40 wins for 20 losses and that's who wins the title. And it's like over 90% something like that. And this year there's only three teams that are 4020 teams. Unless the Celtics can somehow say don't
- [60:23]
B
shortchange those scrappy guys in green. Come on.
- [60:26]
A
Yeah, the Celtics would be the fourth. They would have to be win in Phoenix Tuesday night. Conceivable. Now they'd have to upset Denver on Wednesday and then beat Brooklyn at home. So they could be the fourth. But the three teams are obviously OKC and Detroit and then San Antonio, who's been pretty hot. I know you've talked about them on your pod. Is there any sort of part of you that thinks that they could win four straight playoff rounds? Because I am of the I am of the mindset that they're too young and they have to have the taste your own blood playoffs before we can seriously talk about them winning a title. But they do fit this thing and there's only three teams that fit it.
- [61:09]
B
I would generally agree with you that they are young Wemby's young and untested in the playoffs. Castle Harper on and on. The rookie wall is also a thing. Harper's played a lot of minutes. We'll see how he holds up. They had to demote Harrison Barnes out of the starting five because he kind of hit the veteran wall and maybe he'll. He'll get promoted back into it. So he.
- [61:34]
A
No, he hit the old guy wall.
- [61:35]
B
That's what I was trying to be nice. The veteran wall. I don't want to call Harrison Barns old. I'll call. And they did nothing at the trade deadline. Right. Like we all thought. They have this team that's ready to win and they have a bunch of pieces. Can they just get one more good player? They didn't. All that said, I do think they could win three straight playoff rounds in the west just because like all of these other teams are sort of, you know, the Wolves are trying to figure themselves out to some degree. The Rockets. We talked about Denver just. We just did a whole thing on Denver and they have a thing against the Thunder. And I don't. I wouldn't dismiss it as just small sample size theater. I know the last, the last couple games there were guys out, but those were high stakes. High like by regular season standards. Like the teams cared about those games and the spurs won them and they won a couple of them handily and they had the Thunder a little flustered. And I don't necessarily think that means they would beat the Thunder in a playoff series. I would pick Oklahoma City, but I don't think it's inconceivable that the spurs could make the finals. They just. They also have one of the five best players in the NBA period.
- [62:38]
A
And his. That goes back to the MVP discussion. So if they went on a real run here, down the stretch they get the one seed. Wemby goes up a level as all this is happening and maybe we have an 86 rockets type of situation. Four rounds sounds excessive to me when you think none of those guys really have any of them been in a big playoff game.
- [63:01]
B
Well, and it's Darren Fox, game seven.
- [63:04]
A
Harrison Barnes, the 10th guy in their team. Darren Fox played a game seven against Stephen.
- [63:10]
B
Round one. Cornette is an NBA freaking champion.
- [63:14]
A
Kelly Olenek had game seven against Washington. All right, I have a couple quick things for you. And then we were going to talk about Kawhi.
- [63:25]
B
No, could I just say one more thing about the spurs because I don't think it's just the young guys thing you're talking about. I Think you it we have. You almost forget it as you get distant from when the playoffs fade away and you're in January and February in the regular season. And it's been a while since you felt the playoffs and all that four. It's just really physically taxing. It's not just like the pressure and the noise and like the big stage. It's just like guys are going down like flies. It's a slog. It's every other day after the first round. I mean, it's really, really hard to win four playoff series. You have to. And I think I know you meant that when you said they haven't been tested and felt blood and all that stuff, but that's part of it is like feeling what it's like of. This is game 17 for us in the playoffs. Like, that hurts.
- [64:13]
A
I got a couple of mailbag questions, actually, about are we sure the west is still better than the East?
- [64:19]
B
Okay.
- [64:22]
A
And. And a couple people all made the same point, like, yeah, OKC is the best team in the league, but if you go top top four versus top four, are we sure the west top four is better than the east top four? It just got my brain thinking a little bit. If you had to rank the teams right now, we'd put OKC first. Who would you put second? You get either conference, the top eight teams. So who's your second best team right now?
- [64:50]
B
I'm still going to go Denver.
- [64:53]
A
I think I would go Detroit just because I don't know what I'm getting from Gordon yet, but I think it's. Would you go Detroit third?
- [65:03]
B
Yeah. Yes.
- [65:04]
A
Okay, so it's Denver, Detroit, two, three. So who's four? Would you put San Antonio there?
- [65:09]
B
I put San Antonio there.
- [65:12]
A
And then would you put the next three east teams, followed by whoever is number four in the west, which would be Minnesota or the Lakers? Whoever.
- [65:21]
B
I would probably have Minnesota over at least one, if not two or three of the east teams.
- [65:29]
A
Well, we just saw that the west is still better. I have three. I want to do this new little mini segment with you called on the Record. I just want to go on the record.
- [65:37]
B
Okay.
- [65:37]
A
Just want to put my thing down. I don't think LeBron goes to Cleveland next year.
- [65:44]
B
Just out of left field. I like that you're just going on the record with it. Okay. So elaborate.
- [65:49]
A
I don't see it. And here's why I don't see it, because I think Cleveland's a team that could win the title this year or next year. I think they have a Player that is one of the best. Six or seven, eight, nine, whatever you want to say, guys in the league who's never made the finals. And I think they're close and I think when. And they're going to resign Harden. And I think they're close and I think just being like, oh, by the way, we're going to add the LeBron farewell tour to this. It just doesn't pass the smell test to me. And I might be wrong, but I wanted to go on the record. I think it's going to be Golden State. That would be my bet if you gave me the bet. And Cleveland will be the favorite. The Knicks will probably be the second favorite. Lakers will probably be in the top three. And then there'll be a whole bunch of other teams. Golden State makes the most sense to me because they actually need them. And the narrative of I'm going to finish my career with Steph Curry, the other great player of my generation. We won Olympic gold medals together. The team kind of needs me. So it's a farewell tour combined with the team needs me. I'm going to play with Draymond, Steve Kerr, who's coached me and this is where I'm going to end. It makes more sense to me than I'm just going to be awkwardly shoehorned into this team that had a chance to win a title, who has a best guy in the league candidacy, at least from the guard position just doesn't add up to me.
- [67:09]
B
It's. It's a big bomb to drop into your team. It's just not simple of like, oh, he's coming on the minimum or the mid level, so it doesn't hurt our cap situation. It's free money. It's like.
- [67:18]
A
And he's bringing a 40 person camera crew. It just is. It's a, it's an Admiral if you think you can win the title.
- [67:26]
B
He's not just going to stand in the corner and play 25 minutes. He's going to have the ballot and play 35 minutes and have to be engaged on defense.
- [67:33]
A
You saw it in the All Star Game when he's on the court. He's going to be a principal player in the game. That's just how it's going to play out. He's one of the two best players of all time.
- [67:42]
B
So I've talked about the warriors one a bit. I think you're right to flag it as possible. The Knicks, I probably haven't put enough thought into. Obviously he's talked about Madison Square Garden and what that place means to him. I just.
- [67:53]
A
Why would Jalen Brunson sign up for that?
- [67:56]
B
Well, I don't know why he. I mean, it's LeBron, I guess, but I just don't know.
- [68:01]
A
I'm trying.
- [68:02]
B
I haven't gone through the machinations it would take for it to happen. If it's not just him coming on the minimum and the apron issues and what do they do with Katt and his Giannis still in play, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
- [68:13]
A
I think he either stays in LA or he goes to Golden State. Those would be my best two. All right, next one. It's kind of tied to LeBron. If they don't get LeBron, I don't. I think this is it for Steve Kerr. I have no inside info. This would be the right kind of area for him to be like, you know what? I'm gonna take a year. I'll do some media. I'll try to figure out if I wanna keep coaching Conquest.
- [68:40]
B
Do you want me to say something?
- [68:42]
A
You don't have to say anything.
- [68:43]
B
I mean, look, he's been coaching without a contract beyond the season, the entire year. That's always a red flag. There's always been this notion of, and he has said it publicly, that I'm tied at the hip to Steph. As long as Steph is here, I will be here, period. And we all know Steph is going to be there next year. I. This has been a trying couple of years for the warriors on lots of different levels. I would not. It would not shock, it would not surprise me if he were not the coach next year.
- [69:15]
A
And there's a little. Maybe Kamingo would have done better if we'd have. Like there's a little finger pointing stuff that's going on since he's draft and some of this stuff that's a real thing. I just wonder if he's like, you know what? I'm good. I'm gonna take a year off.
- [69:28]
B
Well, I mean, we saw. I mean, we saw Bob Myers just
- [69:33]
A
basically like we saw Bob Myers say, I'm good. I'm walking away.
- [69:36]
B
Yeah, I don't. I don't. I'm ready for some time off. Yeah.
- [69:40]
A
All right, so those are my strongest two. I want to get on the record with predictions. I have the right to flip these predictions at a later date. I'm just putting these down. My third one is I'm not sure Darren Peterson is going to go first anymore, which I would have bet anything on two months ago. But there's Just too much weirdness with this Kansas thing with him coming out of games and the cramping and the competitiveness. And unless he's actually hurt, which is now a new theory, I think teams value competitiveness too much. It's the number one thing we've learned about the NBA in the last 15 years is, you know what, it's a good idea to have competitive guys. And I think this has just gotten too weird with the Kansas thing and I think there might be better picks. I know you don't care about the draft.
- [70:22]
B
No, I'll tell you this. I do care about the draft. I don't watch a lot of college basketball. I'll do my YouTubing as we get closer to the draft. By the way, my YouTubing. I don't know if you remember this from the Zach Lowe show last year. I said the number one guy I fell head over heels with based on 15 minutes of YouTubing was conic and Apple.
- [70:39]
A
But I was also pitching him to you as you're going to love this concan nipple who's your guy moves without the ball and sets picks.
- [70:47]
B
So I mean, I care to some degree. I don't, I don't watch college basketball because I just watch too much NBA. I don't have time. It's a time management thing. But I will tell you this Knicks Pistons was. What day was that? I don't even know if lost. I think it was Thursday night. Yeah, I think the night before was when Peterson had taken himself out of a game. I mean, I still haven't even seen the video of it on the pregame. Knicks Pistons, big game, Eastern Conference clash. Detroit's been in the news because of the suspensions. The Knicks needed revenge. Every scout, front office person, coach at the game, number one topic on their mind was what in the hell is going on with Darren Peterson? I had so many Darren Peterson conversations and I just, I remember talking to various people being like, what? What? He just took himself out of the game? Cause I hadn't seen it. And they're like, yeah. He literally pointed to Bill Self. I was like, I'm, I'm out. That's it. And no one, no one knows what to make of it.
- [71:39]
A
I don't like it, I don't understand it. And it gives me Ben Simmons flashbacks to the OSU thing when he was just like, I'm out. And didn't care if they even made the nit or whatever he did. Now I hope that he actually has some physical stuff going on that he's afraid to make worse would be my hope. But I don't know, just compare it to think of some of the great guys we've had even recently. Would Anthony Edwards be like, yeah, I'm good, gonna take myself out. It just makes me nervous. So I'd wanna have a lot more information on it.
- [72:12]
B
I mean, I can tell you this, the scouts and front office people I know, particularly people who are gonna be picking towards the top of the draft, like a lot of their job is trying to figure out what's going on. And if there were a physical thing at some point, one of them would figure it out and it would start to get around and everyone is just completely perplexed.
- [72:33]
A
It's where the Bancet just becomes an easier pick because ultimately you just made the key point. You're talking about guys who are gonna get fired if they get this pick wrong. And that's when you just gravitate toward, you know, this guy. He's six, eight, perfect body. He's worst case scenario is gonna be a better Andrew Wiggins. This is a safer bet. I'm just gonna take this guy. All right, we're gonna take a break for the podcast. Keep going on here on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by Venmo. Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Sign up@venmo.com collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA Select Schools available Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply@venmo.me/stash Terms Max $100 cash back per month. This episode is brought to you by Pepsi. Have you heard about the Pepsi paradox? Basically, it's the idea that when labels and bias disappear, cola drinkers prefer the taste of Pepsi zero sugar over Coca Cola zero sugar. Yep, Pepsi zero sugar tastes better than Coca Cola zero sugar. They've got the stats to prove it. Last year, Pepsi revived the iconic Pepsi challenge across America. In 60% of participants chose Pepsi Zero Sugar over Coca Cola Zero Sugar. Don't take our word for it. Go out and try Pepsi zero sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi. Kawhi Leonard I can't wait for this. I wanted to do a deep dive. We're going to try to keep this to 30 minutes Kawhi Leonard. We're going to do deep dives here every once in a while on the Sunday night pods where we pick a player and we just dive in. And Kawhi Leonard, I'll start here. I think the weirdest career of anyone in the top 40 for me, and he is top 40. I have him as a level four. I have the five levels that I created in my book, the pyramid. Level four is the one right below the pantheon. And he is right there as one of the best 30 guys of all time. For me, I think I have number 29. He averaged 12 points a game for the first four years, years of his career. He was a Finals MVP and a defensive player of the year before he ever made an All Star team. He's only played 766 regular season games in 15 years, which averages out to about 50.5 a game or 51 a game or something like that. He's been the Finals MVP on two different teams and if you only watch the last two months of the season, you would think he was one of the best five players we have. I have no idea if he's going to be in round two of the playoffs ever again in his career, much less the Finals. We know very little about him. He's been the most enigmatic, quiet, strangest player to figure out that we've had. He quit on these Spurs. I guess quit's the wrong word. Just refused to play for them anymore. Didn't get along with an infrastructure that is pretty beloved where guys all love each other. And he was just like, I'm out. I don't trust you guys. I've had it. And there's a lot more else to discuss. But at his best. At his best was right there in the LeBron Durant vicinity and is one of the 30 best players of all time and has two rings. So I'll start there.
- [76:10]
B
I mean, he's been so good this year and relatively available enough to qualify for all of these awards we've been talking about. Like, I think he belongs in the first team all NBA conversation for those last few spots. I don't think he'll play enough to get there, but he is absolutely been that good. It's partly because Jokic has missed, let's say half of the last 30 games or half the game since the Kawhi came back around Thanksgiving. He's either been the best or second best player in the league in that time span, given all the games that other guys have missed. But he's been that good he's been like an MVP level player right now, which I kind of thought, I'm not sure we're going to see that again for 35 out of 45 games in any season. And he's been, he's been that good. His career has been so weird that you didn't even get to the cap circumvention scandal that's currently happening.
- [76:59]
A
We have a whole bunch of other shit to go through. He's only been a top three MVP twice in 16 and 17. He was second and third and he was fifth and 20. And it's one of those. When you look at the complete resume, it's both not as impressive as I thought it was going to be, but then also more impressive.
- [77:17]
B
And in an era where so many of the best players with any kind of longevity are going to crack 20,000 points, which used to be hallowed ground, but is less so because of the three point shot, he's still like chilling around 15,900, 770.
- [77:33]
A
He might not get to 20,000 points.
- [77:36]
B
And it's so weird that I would actually ask you, like, who else is in the conversation for weirdest career in your top 40 or 50 or whatever it was? Is there anyone even in the vicinity?
- [77:47]
A
See, now I'm gonna. Now I'm have to dive right into the pyramid. Secret doc. So I had him 31. My bad. Top of level 4. Scottie Pippen, 32. Kawhi 31, Dwyane Wade, 30. Have them all in a row. And I think Dwayne Wade is a little more reliable if you're going weirdo careers. Rick Barry's up there.
- [78:07]
B
Rick Barry's a good one.
- [78:09]
A
He had that whole goes to the aba, can't play for a year, blew out his knee, lost another year. And Robinson going all four years in college,
- [78:22]
B
it's a good one.
- [78:23]
A
Then having to serve for two years and then coming into the league was pretty weird. Bill Walton's thing is super weird.
- [78:30]
B
That's just in. I guess that's injury. That's cool.
- [78:33]
A
Yeah, just it's injury related. And then probably Dr. J. Just because the first part of that was ABA, I think those would be the weird ones.
- [78:40]
B
Walton's a good call because Walton legit had a case of best player alive at his peak, which
- [78:49]
A
Kawhi kind of got there in 2019. Right. I think there was a real case for him after the 2019 playoffs, especially when LeBron went to the Lakers. That season wasn't good. And we kind of, we didn't know at that point. But it seemed like, well, LeBron's now going to move into a different phase of his career. We didn't know it was going to keep going the way it did. But I think we left 2019 thinking Kawhi was the best player in the league.
- [79:12]
B
It's the hill that I will die on. I think he should have been the MVP in 2017 when Russell Westbrook won and you voted for Harden. I voted for Kawhi. I got laughed at for voting for Kawhi publicly. I was one of eight people who voted for him. I thought he was the best player in the league and should have won
- [79:26]
A
the MVP all NBA three times his three year peak from 2019 to 21. Offensively he was basically a 26, 7 and 4 for his career. 50% field goal, 39%, 3, 86% free throw, 23.5 PER. And then the playoffs he's better 21, 8 and 3, almost a 50, 40, 90 guy, 24.2 PER which is 11th his playoff run from 19 to 21 is the best great player case for him which includes the title. 48 games. 2019, 2020, 2021. 30 points a game, nine rebounds a game, five assists a game, 51% shooting, 88% for the land, 37% from the and a shot.
- [80:16]
B
That would be the shot if the shot weren't already taken by Michael Jordan.
- [80:20]
A
Right. It's as good as any stretch, any three year stretch LeBron had, any three year stretch Durant had just statistically. And then you have that Game 7 he played against Philly in 2019, which I know you love. Nobody on Toronto shows up except for Ibaka. The whole team is in a freezer. Van Vliet's 0 for 5. We're like, is this guy ever going to be playable again in the playoffs? Kawhi takes 39 shots, makes 16. Everyone else on the team other than Abaca is 8 for 40 and he hits probably the most famous non final shot ever. Right?
- [81:02]
B
Is it more famous than the shot over Craig Elo maybe?
- [81:07]
A
No, no, Craig Elo's that. That's kind of the beginning of the Jordan. Yeah, well, it's in the running for that one. Well, a couple things we gotta talk about. First of all, his first four years of the career is 12 points a game and his next four years was 24. How many players doubled their point total in the second four years? His Clippers career, which is 309 games, he's basically 25, six rebounds, four assists, 18 field goals a game. He averaged 9.5 field goal attempts a game. First four years of his career we had to talk about the defense.
- [81:41]
B
He's a two time defensive player of the year for a non center is extraordinary.
- [81:46]
A
So we've talked about this a lot and this dates back to our Grantland days when Kawhi had emerged. We. I remember I wrote one of my last pieces for Grantland was about Kawhi's a Sharktopus. There was a Sharktopus movie. We did a graphic with Kawhi's face with an octopus. For me it's him and Kawhi as the best perimeter defenders I've ever seen.
- [82:08]
B
Wait, no. Him and Pippen. Did you mean him and Pippen?
- [82:10]
A
I'm sorry, him and Pippen. It's him and Pippen as levitating above everyone else I've ever seen. I might actually throw MJ in there as, as number three. I don't know if Amen Thompson can get there. He certainly, when you think like where his age are and what he's done already, I think it's conceivable. Is there anybody else as a perimeter defender that you've seen that can match Pippen and Kawhi?
- [82:37]
B
Gary Payton didn't have enough size.
- [82:40]
A
There were certain guys he couldn't like he couldn't have guarded Jokic. Pippen and Kawhi could have guarded Jokic or track.
- [82:46]
B
No, no. Those two guys, I mean those, those two standalone and I, I, I think I would like to go back to watch more Scott. I mean Scotty's one of my, one of my. Just like I got into fights in verbal fights in college over Scottie Pippen. I was the guy that defended Scottie Pippen. I love Scottie Pippen as a player. So I want to go back and watch a little film. Just defense only. I feel like Kawhi was scarier. Like Pete, Pete Kawhi was maybe a little scarier than Scotty just by this much
- [83:16]
A
stronger.
- [83:16]
B
Maybe like a little physically. Like just. Is this guy a tank? Like, I don't know, like immovable.
- [83:22]
A
He had that thing that the only other guy I've seen do it is Pippen. And you used to joke about it with the. When he would just decide to take the ball.
- [83:31]
B
Yeah, it's like a boy.
- [83:33]
A
Somebody would be dribbling the ball up and quiet would be like I'm gonna take that. And he would just go get the ball and steal it and, and that would be it.
- [83:41]
B
You could see him decide like I'm just going to take the ball from you. Like, it's not. It's not going to be like a knock away where then we both go chase it and I get it. I'm just going to reach out my hand, grab the ball from you and start going the other way. Thank you for participating in this exercise.
- [83:57]
A
He got the 2014 Finals MVP. I think as the years pass, it's like. And he shut down LeBron in the 14 finals. He actually didn't shut him down. Like, LeBron's stats were pretty similar to what they always were, but he did shut him down in key moments of games where they would be up by 20 and maybe LeBron would get some stats near the end. But there were. It was really the only time I remember. Cause Indiana would. Would have their reputation of oh, Paul George gives LeBron everything he can handle. It's like, not like this. Not like Kawhi, who just seemed completely unafraid of him and went at him. And this was LeBron at the peak of his powers.
- [84:33]
B
Well, and that. And that's the physicality thing too is like the rare guy who just is a physical specimen. Could go toe to toe with LeBron. Size, strength.
- [84:41]
A
And Durant was the other guy from that era. And there was also Blake Griffin from that era. There are all these things to him to go. So you have that piece. His 2014 finals, he was 11 for 19 from 3. 61%, 18 points a game. So he ends up. That was one of those finals MVP by default. We didn't really know who to vote for. I. You could make a case, maybe just vote Duncan because he was the spiritual guy of the team. All right, biggest what ifs before we get to the biggest what if. 2017, Game 1, Golden State. Kawhi's been awesome. You voted for him for MVP. 26 points in 23 minutes. Steps on Zaza's foot and the rest of his history.
- [85:20]
B
That entire playoffs, Kawhi was insane the entire playoffs.
- [85:25]
A
Insane enough that I think Golden State was the best team of this century. It was conceivable that he could take them on by himself and maybe give them a run. That's how I.
- [85:36]
B
That was Durant year one for Durant year one.
- [85:38]
A
That's the best team I've seen all century.
- [85:41]
B
16 and one in the playoffs. Yeah.
- [85:43]
A
That team is unstoppable.
- [85:45]
B
Yeah. I think he's so good that they could. That could have been a 4, 2 warrior series. I don't think he.
- [85:52]
A
He would have landed some punches like it.
- [85:55]
B
Let's just posit that they steal Game one on the road and then we have two days of like, oh, are the warriors in trouble? Just spurs are ready for this. Then the warriors win game two, probably win game three and like, but they
- [86:05]
A
get another game in there somewhere, another what if 2020. The bubble. So we head into Covid. There's three teams that we think can win the title. The Clippers and the Lakers. And then the Bucks, who hadn't really proven that they, they'd made the Eastern finals the year before, lost to Toronto. They were probably the team that was going to come out of the east, we thought. And then the bubble happens and the Lakers get stronger in the bubble and the Clippers completely cave. And they've talked about it since, about they just weren't built for the bubble. So you have that 20, 21, the next year. Kawhi is incredible again. 30.7 rebounds, 4 assists in the first two rounds, gets hurt at the tail end of round two, ends up like kind of sneaking Phoenix into the finals. And I don't know if they were the best team. Do you think they were the best team? I actually thought the Phoenix was better the next year.
- [86:58]
B
And yeah, well, that's when all the wheels came off and the.
- [87:00]
A
And then the wheels came off.
- [87:01]
B
Yeah. So you have a really good team. But yeah, I would have liked to have obviously seen the full strength Clippers. They gets heard in the Utah series that they end up winning in six
- [87:12]
A
and then, yeah, at the tail end of that series and then the, the Phoenix also got to avoid Anthony Davis. So I'm just stating facts. I know Eddie Johnson's going to call us water boys on Twitter and fight. And then honestly, the biggest what if other than this aspiration thing was him demanding that Paul George be part of this clipper situation in 2018. And it's a what if that all my Clipper fans talk about all the time. You know, the trade was Paul George for a guy named Shay Gilgis, Alexander Gallinari, who was still competent at that point. Four unprotected firsts, two swaps and then another pick. And we know what happened with those picks. And the question has always been, why didn't you just go to the Clippers, have all the picks, have the young players and just take some time to try to figure it out. You just won the title. It's not like you had to win the title right away. Why didn't you have more patience? Why did you demand they have to gut everything so it's you and Paul George, obviously he would do it over Again, if he could. But it's a pretty good what if. Now, we didn't know SJ was gonna even be an all NBA player. We knew he was good.
- [88:22]
B
We knew he was good. Like he was clearly good.
- [88:25]
A
Didn't know he was going to be an all NBA player, much less a two time mvp. Knew those picks were going to hurt. And I got to say I defended the move at the time.
- [88:33]
B
I think everybody did. I think everybody still would.
- [88:35]
A
Yeah, because it's like you can't get Kawhi unless you do this. The question is, could you have gotten Kawhi anyway? Where, Where? What else was he doing? He didn't want to go to the Lakers. Like we know that now. He was playing poker with the Lakers. Didn't seem like he wanted to go back to. What were the other options.
- [88:53]
B
That's a great question. I think the Raptors thought they had an honest chance at him. Even though they knew he never asked to be there. They knew he wanted to go to Los Angeles. They felt that winning a title, he had a good relationship with Masai Ojiri.
- [89:09]
A
Maybe do a one year deal and then figure it out after that.
- [89:13]
B
Yeah, I think they thought they had some kind of chance. But you're right. What were the other. There was no other team that was in it at the time. It was those three teams and it went on and on and on. And I don't know think he ever wanted to go to the Lakers. The Lakers obviously thought they could have gotten him. And there was, you know, Jerry west was worried the Lakers were going to get him. But I, I think he wanted to go to the Clippers all along. And should you have called his bl. I don't know. I mean it's, it's, it's hard to know. But clearly in retrospect, they would have been better off just signing Kawhi and not trading for Paul George. Although Paul George was coming off the best season of his career, having finished third in mvp and you know, but he was awesome. Stars. Want to play with stars, man, I don't know what to tell you. And if you're put in that, if you're backed into that corner, having put so many chips into this Kawhi basket, where you're following him around during the season, you're at his games, you're letting them know you're watching and all this stuff, it would have been a tough pill to swallow.
- [90:03]
A
Way to hold off making more jokes about following them around and waving carrots and you really held back. I was Impressed. There's been a couple stretches in the history of the league that are just. Just kind of earth shattering to look back at in retrospect. And I think one of those stretches for the league was that 2019 season followed by the COVID season. Just Kawhi sitting there, being available, really, for anybody, nobody knowing whether they should even trade for him or not, nobody thinking he'd stay more than a year. All these teams kicking the tires on it, ultimately deciding not to, and Toronto just saying fuck it and doing it right. So you had that. You had Golden State with a. Suddenly nobody understood why, but maybe sort of unhappy Durant. And then you had the Kyrie piece, and then as the. And then the fight with Draymond on court argument, and then Kyrie falling apart in Boston. And then it's like, wait, are these guys headed toward maybe playing together? So you had that. You had the worst Kawhi going. You had the Anthony Davis basically saying, I want to play for the Lakers mid season and just blowing up the Lakers and all the young players because they couldn't get the trade done. So that trade's looming, and everything's leading to that weird summer where we had the Kawhi thing, the Paul George trade. We had Houston getting a little rocky, and then we had.
- [91:28]
B
Houston traded Chris Ball for Russ.
- [91:30]
A
We had that. And then we have this new season that starts with all these guys on these new teams, and then Covid happens. It will never be topped. That has to be the weirdest two years we've ever had.
- [91:42]
B
It's pretty weird. There's a lot. I mean, the Kyrie thing by itself was such an earthquake. The Kyrie basically demanding a trade out of Cleveland because that took a long time to resolve itself as well, as you lived and know. Well, that was because, if I'm remembering my calendar right, that came kind of after free agency. That summer was mostly over, and we were into, like, calm mode. Like, oh, there's no.
- [92:08]
A
We were having our ringer and NBA meetings.
- [92:11]
B
And then it was.
- [92:12]
A
Everything was done. And then it was like, Kawhi is now a Boston Celtic.
- [92:14]
B
Really.
- [92:15]
A
Whoa. When we, like, sprung into action. But yeah, so really strange stretch Kawhi and that whole trade moves into it. I think the Clippers would do it again. But there is this alternate universe where they would have had Kawhi SGA in his second year. Zubots, Gallinari, Lou Williams, Max cap space to try to trade for any other guys. Patrick, Beverly, Harrell, Shamet, all their picks and then some other picks that they had Gotten.
- [92:46]
B
That's the key. Because you could live in this world where if you just get Kawhi and you don't trade for Paul George, you're good now and good later and set up to be good for 15 years and maybe really good. But to get the good now part, at some point in the first 18 months, you need another guy.
- [93:03]
A
Yeah, right. Which with the cap space and everything else, who knows? They might have traded for it. So now. So he's. It's somehow year 15, 766 games and 146 playoff games. So he hasn't even played 1,000 games combined yet. How many more years is he going to play? Would you trade for him this summer? Would the Clippers consider trading for him? And then we haven't talked about the aspiration piece of this yet and the fact that we have no idea if they're going to get punished. We've heard crazy rumors about what the punishment might be or might not be. Including there's a voided contract contingent out there that I enjoy. They're kind of like the Kawhi aspiration truthers that he's just going to be a free agent this summer. I don't think that's going to happen.
- [93:53]
B
That would surprise me. But what am I supposed to say? It would surprise me. So would the whole aspiration thing.
- [94:02]
A
I think we're prepared for all of it. Ride me out for the next four Kawhiers. What happens? What do you foresee?
- [94:10]
B
I foresee the safest bet. And what I would bet on is he never leaves the Clippers. And they are a good, solid team that never breaks through in a big way. But there is also a universe where they do have all this Max cast base set up. They're the Clippers. They're la. They have Inuit. Dom. Maybe somebody comes. I don't know who that somebody is, but I think. I bet he stays with the Clippers. And it's just a marriage that lasts for whatever reason and he rides it out as a very good player on a good team. And maybe that's it.
- [94:42]
A
It's like a true crime series where the couple, one of the couple had an affair with the gardener and then they killed the gardener and buried him under the house. And now they're married for life and they just have to.
- [94:54]
B
I didn't say. I just said he stayed with the Clippers. I didn't mention a guard.
- [94:58]
A
A good apple show. Who's the garden? John Hammond, Diane Lane. And they have a secret. They have to stay. They have to Stay down for the rest of whatever. Yeah. The dirty secret is they're actually like, okay positioned as long as they don't get nailed with some sort of giant suspension thing. Right. They were able to get younger with Garland and Matheran, who I think they're going to resign. They'll have Kawhi, they have some flexibility with expirings. They're finally done with this OKC trade, so. And they're going to have cap space at 27, which is what they seem to care about.
- [95:36]
B
And I think they did well in the Zubotz trade. I think they did probably very well in the Zubots trade. And we'll see what the lottery does. You know, if they do land a fifth, sixth, seventh pick in this draft, that's a huge deal for them. And I think they did well in that, in that trade.
- [95:53]
A
Last thing with Kawhi. So you see these guys when they come into the league, within a couple years, they're in the vicinity of where they end up. Right. And you have some situations like Jaylen Brown where it's like, Jaylen Brown, great athlete. There were pieces of it. I never thought he would be as good of an all around player as he is now and as good of an offensive player. I always thought he'd be a little bit flawed and a little bit. But just you'd always see the weaknesses with him and he's gotten to a level higher than I thought. But it's still like if you watch Jalen Brown in 20, 18, 19 and you watch him now, it's not. You could see the, you could see like that led to this, I guess is my point.
- [96:37]
B
You're talking about the Jalen Brown that the spurs surely asked for in the Kawhi Leonard trade.
- [96:42]
A
In the Kawhi trade. But you see Durant in year two and it's gonna still look like what we're watching now with Houston. You even see like as different as LeBron is now physically, there's still a lot of the same stuff of like the head steam down, all that. If you go and watch Kawhi in like 2013 and watch the Kawhi now, it's like it's a different human being. Like he has this dead eye 3 point shot now. His 3 point shooting was always good, but now he has this like stutter step line drive in your face shot. He's got that little foul line jumper like his, his paint game is unbelievable. Like he's really one of the most gifted scorers of this century now. And I just, that Would have been inconceivable to me going to the 2014 finals games. You never ever in a million years could have convinced me this guy will eventually be a Jedi on offense. I never would have bought it.
- [97:37]
B
Part of it is being drafted to a good team, right? So you're not just given the keys right away to like, oh, he averaged 27 points in his second year. Part of it is that they worked hard on his shot and he worked hard on his shot and it went from a potential liability to a massive asset. And part of it is just reps and reps and reps and getting better and better. And it's very, I think, apt that you mentioned Jaylen Brown because during the Kawhi thing, I wrote about Jalen Brown for ESPN and about how this dilemma the Celtics faced of like, should we, should we trade this guy for Kawhi and age ourselves up seven, eight years, whatever it was. And I wrote like, if you looked at a lot of the statistical indicators and I'm talking the tracking stuff like number of pick and rolls ran pretty low. Number of ISOs ran pretty low assists out of pick and roll. Like they, they were very similar players at that stage when Kawhi was at Jaylen Brown stage in his career then they were very similar players. And Jaylen Brown has not become as good as Pete Kawhi Leonard, but he's developed in sort of a similar, like the breadth of his game has taken. It has taken them to places where it didn't appear that it could have gone back then, but it was there, there lurking in there.
- [98:45]
A
My big case for not making that trade, and I did it on pods back then, was the profile of him versus Paul George was very similar. Jaylen Brown and it just felt like pretty good bet that he could be as good as Paul George barring an injury. Right. And that was going to be his arc as a player.
- [99:06]
B
Another guy they could have traded Jalen Brown for.
- [99:08]
A
Right. And the question for me is why would I trade this for a year of Kawhi Leonard when there's no chance he's going to stay? Made no sense to me. I didn't think they should do it. The other what if we didn't mention how weird that 2011 draft was? Kawago first.
- [99:26]
B
What if the Pacers never traded him?
- [99:28]
A
Well, you have that, but you also have Milwaukee takes jimmer for that 10th. Kwe Thompson goes 11th to Golden State. Alec Burke's 12 to Utah. The Morris twins go 13th and 14th to Phoenix and Houston.
- [99:45]
B
Okay.
- [99:46]
A
And I'm actually surprised Darrell passed on Kawhi at 14. It felt like he would have fit the model. And from some of the stuff he was doing at San Diego State, Indiana takes Kawhi 15th and then trades him for George Hill. And that was one of the first great pieces you wrote for us at Grantland when you did the whole deep dive of a trade that I think both teams were probably happy about. Cause George Hill, they got to conference finals twice. And you have to give up something to get something to give up Kawhi. But there's an interesting alternate universe where they just have Danny Granger, Paul Georgia and Kawhi Leonard and they're just like, I guess we'll figure out who brings the ball up.
- [100:22]
B
It's a really fun draft all the way down because like Jimmy Butler sneaks in at number 30.
- [100:28]
A
It's a drunk draft.
- [100:29]
B
Chandler Parsons at number 38, becomes a weirdly important player because of his contract and the decision the Rockets had to make to like restrict him or not restrict him. I can't remember exactly. It was a very. It was a very fun draft. Yeah.
- [100:41]
A
So the rap on Kawhi, he's at San Diego State for two seasons. His second year he averaged 16 and 11 and he was 25 for 86 from three. And this is the college three, shot 29%. And the rap was great athlete, can't shoot. And then San Antonio was like, we're going to fix him in like a month. And he's basically been a good three point shooter. I think other than his rookie year for most of his career. The other question for me is in the pyramid, how high can he go? If he could put together a couple more really high end years. Cause that's where like Dwayne Wade, his career ended pretty abruptly. Right. He was. His peak was from his rookie year in Miami. 0405 season, I would say through about 13 with Miami. And then he just moved into a different phase of his career.
- [101:36]
B
He was leaking oil in the 2014 finals.
- [101:38]
A
Yeah. The 33 game winning streak was probably his last. Great hurrah. Isaiah Thomas, I have a 29. His career ended early. And then Koozie at 28. Like there is a chance he could move into that. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Bob Pettit, I have from 26, 25, 24, 23 in that range. If he can play like three, four more years, I think that's a good range for him and maybe that's where he ends up.
- [102:04]
B
Can I give you a Kawhi stat.
- [102:05]
A
Yeah.
- [102:06]
B
So I did a little basketball reference diving and these are cherry picked numbers to be sure, but I put them a little lower just to make sure I was including. I wasn't just cutting it off like right where Kawhi hit. All right, here are the guys who, in the entire history of the NBA ABA, played at least 5,000 minutes in the playoffs. Now, that's where I had to cherry pick a little bit because Kawhi is at 5,100. So he's barely over that.
- [102:34]
A
But so far, 5,000 minutes is still a lot for the playoffs.
- [102:37]
B
5,000 minutes points per game, at least 21. Kawhi's at 21 and a half. I think player efficiency rating, at least 23. Kawhi's at 24 and change, 24.2. So 5,000 minutes, all playoffs. This is all playoffs. Points per game in the playoffs, greater than 21. PR in the playoffs, greater than 23. Nine guys in the history of the NBA, LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul, Jabbar, Shaq, Jerry West, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Dirk Nowitzki, Hakeem Olajuwon. That's the whole list.
- [103:12]
A
Wow.
- [103:13]
B
That's what we're talking about. Like, that's what this guy is.
- [103:18]
A
It would have been really fun if Detroit said fuck it and traded for him. They don't.
- [103:25]
B
The best record. They had the best record in the NBA.
- [103:27]
A
I would have said don't do that. But if they had done that, I would have talked myself into it in two minutes.
- [103:33]
B
It would have. It would have been. It would have been. We would have been exhilarated on the trade deadline show. We would. If that had broken at 2:12. Trade deadline day, Detroit, to what?
- [103:46]
A
You saw it in the All Star game. There's very few guys that can take over a quarter like that on both ends. And you know, I. We're going to look back in the 21st century and especially at the forward position where we had a lot of good ones. And I think LeBron and Durant will levitate above the other ones as forwards, but Kawhi is the one. Dirk had his moment too, in 2011 especially, and that's probably. I'm probably leaving somebody out, but those would be the four that I think were the most impactful forwards and winning titles on two different teams. I hope he has one more run because he's really fun to watch in person is the other thing. I still feel like he delivers the goods and there's just nobody like him in the league. I Don't even know who to compare him to.
- [104:34]
B
I mean, I would love him to have one more real run. The problem is I just, I mean, they lost in seven to the Nuggets last year in the first round. So we didn't get to see a long run, but we just haven't had a long run. And we're probably not getting there since the bubble. It's just every playoffs where even when it starts promising he gets injured.
- [104:55]
A
Kawhi Leonard, before we go. That was fun. I enjoyed our deep dive.
- [105:00]
B
Yeah, it's a fascinating one.
- [105:04]
A
Before we go. Oh, and by the way, the other thing with Kawhi is if you went around the league and said, give me your three best off the court Kawhi stories, how many could you actually get from people?
- [105:17]
B
It's, I mean,
- [105:21]
A
nobody knows anything about him. Even now, 15 years in, except for,
- [105:27]
B
I don't think, like, what did Harden say when right before he got traded, there was some piece where he was like, I think I know him probably better than anyone in the league and I don't really know him. We don't really talk much.
- [105:38]
A
Yeah, like I was, I was googling him and it was like, Kawhi's married. I was like, kawhi's married.
- [105:42]
B
I just.
- [105:42]
A
No idea. Never really seen him in any situation like that. Before we go Winter Olympics, how much did you consume? Are you just in full Basketball?
- [105:51]
B
It was on in the background now and then. Cause my daughter enjoyed it. So like around dinner in the evening, we'd have it on. I missed the hockey games. I missed both the gold medal hockey games. Cause I was watching basketball, but we saw a fair bit of curling, figure skating, you know, luge, bobsled. We saw some of that. Now I can't say I can't name a bobsledder or a loser or even if I can name a couple figure skaters. That's it.
- [106:16]
A
The hockey was incredible. The women's hockey game was outstanding and so much fun. And then today, the U.S. canada, which I did not wake up for until the third period. But the three and three I don't love for the gold medal, I would have gone 4 on 4 for 10 minutes, then eased into the 3 on 3. But as usual with hockey, our goalie stood on his head and stopped everything and was just out of his mind. And hockey is a lot more simple to understand sometimes than like basketball, which we just talked about for two hours. In hockey, sometimes your goalie can just single handedly win everything for you and you're like, all right, you couldn't score in our goalie and now we've won. That's what happened.
- [107:02]
B
I will say it all the time. One of the greatest feats I have ever seen in sports. I only saw because one of my best friends in college is from the Czech Republic. In the 1998 Olympics in Nagano, we got up in the middle of the night every night to watch the Czech hockey team because he was so into it. And they won the gold medal, and they won the gold medal because Dominik Hasek just lost his mind for. I mean, he was the best goalie in the world, but I mean, in that Olympics, there was a shootout against Canada, I think in the semifinals where he went five for five. And it was like Lindross. It was just every like a plus Canadian player took a run at him in a shootout and he saved every single one. It was absolutely insane. It was one of the best things I've ever seen.
- [107:43]
A
Well, the most fun thing for me about this, it was awesome. I love this Olympic hockey run. But we had the Tkachuk brothers who were on the US Olympic hockey team, who, Brady and, and Keith. And is it Keith, Brady and Matthew? Keith was the dad. And everybody who's ever gone against either of their teams kind of hates those guys because they're like agitator frustrating guys and they've, they've had a lot of success. But on Team America, you have to throw it aside. But now we have the Hughes brothers, who are the younger versions of them. You don't have the same baggage because they. You haven't, your team hasn't battled them. And the Hughes brothers were the two of the heroes because one scored the winning gold one and then the other scored the winning goal today. But their mom, you know, I love mom stuff with the athletic genes because I really think it comes from the mom. A lot of the times the mom was the greatest athlete in the history of unh. She was a three sport athlete in college. She was soccer, hockey and lacrosse. Michael Malley told me this. Cause he went there, he was like two years older than I had to go look it up. And then was this famous college hockey player who was on the first Olympic team, but just this legendary athlete and then goes and has the Hughes kids. And there's a third Hughes kid who could have made the team and got hurt. Luke Hughes, who's the defenseman.
- [109:05]
B
I legitimately thought you were gonna say that their mom is Sarah Hughes, the Olympic gold medal finger skater from like 20 years ago.
- [109:13]
A
No, no, that would have been Exciting, too.
- [109:15]
B
In my head, I was like, it feels like she would have had kids real young if it was at Sarah Hughes. And I don't think that. I don't remember her doing that. Better, better athlete than Jackie McMullen. Another. Unh. Great.
- [109:27]
A
Exactly. And then another thing, which a bunch of my Jewish friends were excited about this. They said this is one of the great moments in Jewish sports history because the Hughes brothers are. The mom is Jewish and they had bar mitzvah. So they're like, we're claiming this is one of the greatest.
- [109:39]
B
I'm learning a lot. I'm learning a lot about the Olympics right now.
- [109:44]
A
I mean, this mom3 sport athlete in college, it's div1. It's not like it. It's div3 where you can just kind of show up for the season.
- [109:52]
B
Have you booked her for the Bill Simmons podcast?
- [109:54]
A
I'm so fascinated. I have so many more questions. And then she married a hockey guy and they have three kids who were all like, you know, major NHL, get her. NHL players.
- [110:03]
B
Get the pod, get her and the sons on the bottom.
- [110:05]
A
Then the Hughes brothers guy loses his teeth, scores the winning goal right after. It's like the famous photo. And you know, the 1980 Olympic team was the true non Boston sports I led of my life. So it was fun to get a little umbilical cord. And then poor Connor McDavid, who, I know you don't follow hockey, but has had these tragic come close. He's the best player.
- [110:28]
B
He's the oiler world. He's. The Oilers won the game.
- [110:30]
A
He's been the best player in the world for years. Can't get over the hump with the cup, now loses in OT the gold medal game, and now is becoming this tragic, tragic Charles Barkley type figure.
- [110:42]
B
But he's like the Jerry west where no one's holding it against him, right?
- [110:45]
A
No, but it's not against him. Yeah, no, the Jerry west is a really good example. Nobody's blamed him, but at some point he's going to end up throwing a chair through his window like Jerry west in winning time. Although I'm not sure that actually happened. Anyway, that's my Olympic report. I had a great time with the hockey team. Go usa. And then they did the Pat Riley thing today, which we forgot about. They're running out of statues.
- [111:09]
B
There are a lot of statues around Krypto, but they did. At least having seen some of our recent statues, at least that one looks exactly like Pat Riley and it looks nice.
- [111:21]
A
We're getting better at stat. Social media has bullied the statue people into just being better at statues.
- [111:30]
B
Yeah, I still feel for Dwayne Wade. It didn't work out.
- [111:33]
A
Can you catch up on the JFK Junior Carolyn Bissett show with your wife so that when we do when we do a pod next week, we can do five minutes on it?
- [111:42]
B
I don't know anything about it. I know you're obsessed with it. I know everyone else in my life wants to talk about the Guthrie kidnapping case. I guess I got a lot of stuff I got to catch up on because I don't have a lot to add to these conversations.
- [111:53]
A
All right, Zach Lowe Next podcast for the Zach Lowe show is Tuesday coming off Spurs Pistons. Hopefully you don't get snowed in. Good luck with the snow. Good luck to everybody back east, including my poor dad, who can't believe it's snowing again, and my daughter who's ready to come back to California. Stay safe on the east coast there. Good luck with the blizzard. Thanks to Jack Wilson, thanks to Chris, thanks to Cahao, thanks to Eduardo as well from our end. And I will see you in this feed on Tuesday. By the way, new rewatchables coming tomorrow. We're doing Crazy Stupid Love, so stay tuned for that. Thanks, zach.
- [112:27]
B
Anytime
- [112:30]
A
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