Crazy NFL Trade Deadline Swings and the Future of Filmmaking With Sheil Kapadia, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: "Crazy NFL Trade Deadline Swings and the Future of Filmmaking"
Guests: Sheil Kapadia, Sean Fennessey, Van Lathan
Date: November 5, 2025

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Overview

This episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast has two distinct segments:

1. NFL Trade Deadline Recap (00:00–51:29)
Bill Simmons and NFL analyst Sheil Kapadia break down one of the wildest NFL trade deadlines in years—including blockbuster moves (notably Sauce Gardner and Quinnen Williams), confusing front office decisions, and how the landscape shifted for top teams.

2. The Future of Filmmaking (52:28–end)
In a lively, sprawling roundtable, Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan debate the evolution of Hollywood, the challenge for new filmmakers, the culture of risk and failure, and nostalgia for eras past—all with frequent disagreements and healthy banter.

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Part 1: NFL Trade Deadline Deep Dive

The Shocking Sauce Gardner Trade

Timestamps: 04:16–11:53

• The Jets traded star CB Sauce Gardner and WR Mitchell to the Colts for two first-round picks.
• Sheil: "I can't remember the last time, an in-season trade—two first-round picks for a guy who... I don't remember anyone saying, 'The Jets will trade Sauce Gardner at the deadline.' So that was a stunner." (04:16)
• Simmons and Kapadia argue that Gardner had declined a bit and that trading two firsts for a non-elite-corner felt excessive.

Key Analogy:

• Sheil: "It's kind of like, you know your friend who goes out on two dates with someone and they're ready to propose. Like, take it slow. Let's get a little bigger sample with Daniel Jones." (05:28)

Lingering Quarterback Questions for Indy:

• Both agree the Colts might regret banking futures on Daniel Jones, who is unproven and injury-prone.
• Hardest remaining schedule in the league for Colts.

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Patriots and Bengals: Opposite Trade Philosophies (11:53–16:45)

• Simmons laments Patriots' inertia:
  “Well, it's interesting because my beloved Patriots—they did the opposite. They didn't do anything. This is a team that really needed... an edge rusher.” (11:53)
• The Bengals, in the cellar with no hope, shockingly also refuse to move high-value trade assets—frustrating fans.
• Sheil: “To me this is organizational malpractice… If you are a fan of one of those teams that is out of it, and they just held onto one of these guys who's gone after the year, I would just be so upset with my front office.” (13:19)

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Jets’ Long-Term Rebuild (16:45–19:35)

• Huge draft capital for the Jets, but a “rinse, lather, repeat” cycle: trade stars, amass picks, rebuild, fail to fix QB, repeat.
• Noted soft spot among Jets fans for Sam Darnold's resurgence elsewhere and front-office missteps:
  Simmons: “[Darnold] was in the worst situation for one of the worst franchises... They had this nice house and they just did not take care of it.” (18:02)

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AFC Power Rankings After the Chaos (19:35–24:09)

• Chiefs and Bills remain consensus top two.
• Ravens, Patriots, Broncos, Colts debated as next tier; skepticism on Daniel Jones and Colts making a real playoff push.
• Sheil: "I think I would go Bills, Chiefs, Ravens, and I would have the Patriots ahead of the Colts." (21:53)

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NFC Teams and Noteworthy Trades (31:31–47:19)

The Cowboys’ “Bonkers” Deal

• Cowboys swap Micah Parsons & picks for Quinnen Williams, Kenny Clark, and a cap move, leaving Simmons dumbfounded:
  Simmons: "This Dallas trade is fucking bonkers. This is like a crazy NBA trade from the 2000s. If I was a Cowboys fan, my head would be doing 360s." (28:36)
  Sheil: “You should be absolutely livid.” (28:36)
• The trade’s pick details give Jets a shot at multiple top-10 selections.

Seahawks, Eagles, and Other Winners

• Best value: Seahawks acquire Rashid Shaheed for a fourth and fifth.
• Eagles land Jalen Phillips for more pass rush, LA Rams sit surprisingly high in odds.
• Discussion about which teams have real offensive "go-to" players in crunch time (Buffalo, Green Bay, Seattle highlighted).

Broader Takeaways

• Emphasis on the poor failure tolerance in present-day front offices and fandom.
• The recurring theme: Teams overly fixated on “winning” the trade market sometimes lose sight of larger team-building strategy.

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Segment Highlights & Quotes

• On Dallas: "Honestly, it's like deranged old man behavior... You have no chance to do anything in the playoffs. What are you doing?"
  (Simmons, 28:36)
• On Jets front office: "At least it's a plan. Their biggest thing is how are you finding a quarterback... But at least they maximized value."
  (Sheil, 16:45)

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Part 2: The Future of Filmmaking (52:28–end)

Do Mid-Budget Crime Thrillers Stand a Chance Anymore? (52:56–55:12)

• Fennessey: “Those are movies specifically that don't work now. You don't see [crime thrillers] coming out now.” (54:28)
• Streaming has replaced theatrical releases for “in the middle” movies—large scale, non-franchise, non-IP films with big stars.
• Van: “As long as movies like this exist on streaming now, that’s kind of the problem.” (53:25)

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Box Office Obsession & Cultural Shifts (55:12–61:19)

• Everyone laments how box office performance and financials dominate media discussion of a movie’s “value.”
• Box office talk seen as clickbait and culture war fodder:
  Van: “When you started reporting... how much money [actors] got paid to do a movie, that started us talking about the salaries... and budgets.”
• Fennessey: “You hear people now say, ‘When you factor in the marketing, it’s actually 70 million more…’ It’s not important for you to know as a movie fan.”

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Opportunity, Representation, and Artist Development (61:19–76:10)

• Debate over whether the “infrastructure” to develop new voices in Hollywood exists anymore.
• Van: “When they are choosing to overspend on these movies, they never do it with Black creatives... I am completely unconvinced... black art is going to be able to get $150 million and go out and not be profitable.” (69:11)
• All panelists agree the pipeline for nurturing new talent is thinner than in the 1990s or ‘00s—but studios still chase "event-izing" directors.

The New Pathways for Creators

• Rise of YouTube, TikTok, and digital tools makes it easier for some to experiment—but also easier to be distracted or avoid the slow, difficult process.
• Simmons: “I just worry sometimes that there’s so many distractions. You think about when people make art a lot of times it happens because they’re bored.” (77:54)
• Van: “There are thousands, if not millions, of people that want to get their movies made. And they don’t want to get them made because they’re bored.” (79:27)
• All agree: Social media, digital distractions, and the short-form content boom have changed creative incentives, detouring potential future auteurs.

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Talent, Opportunity, and the Necessity of Failure (96:01–113:28)

• Simmons and Lathan spar on whether talent, hard work, or pipeline matters most.
• Simmons: “It’s really hard to make good shit. It’s not as easy as I want to make a movie, oh here’s my movie... There’s a whole journey to get to the end.” (96:29)
• Van: “Everyone believes in people.... Failure is essential. Part of this is maybe us changing our relationship to that.” (114:15)
• The fear of public failure is intimidating for younger generations in the social media era.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Van Lathan: “Bad art is as essential as good art... Michael Jordan doesn’t exist if there’s no one to compare him to the average.” (111:27)
• Sean Fennessey: “Movies are going to continue to get a little bit smaller as a business. It’s not going to get bigger again.” (103:53)
• Bill Simmons: “Putting the time in day after day to make something good, to learn how to be good at something—I think some people want to take the shortcuts and they don’t understand what process it is.” (96:49)
• Van: “I just hope some of these people with this artistic sensibility... are allowed to fail a couple of times. You have to want more people to have the opportunity to get their stories out.” (95:03)
• Spirited banter about who is responsible for “finding the next Spielberg,” generational definitions of creativity, and which pipeline models work (NBA, Sundance, YouTube).

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Final Takeaways (121:12–122:51)

• Everyone agrees nurturing new voices is essential, but how to do so in a risk-averse, event-focused industry remains unsolved.
• Van Lathan: “Every day I see talent developed at The Ringer… I come from a place where that kind of didn’t happen as much. I’m blown away…” (121:37)

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Segment Guide (for Key Topics)

• Sauce Gardner/Colts Trade: 04:16–11:53
• Patriots/Bengals Discussion: 11:53–16:45
• Jets’ Long-Term Rebuild: 16:45–19:35
• AFC Tiers: 19:35–24:09
• Cowboys’ Trade Meltdown: 28:36–34:56
• Best and Worst Trade Deadline Moves: 35:08–46:05
• The Future of Theatrical Filmmaking Debate: 52:28–56:41
• Box Office Obsession: 56:41–61:19
• Filmmaker Development and Representation: 61:19–76:10
• Are Distractions Killing Creativity?: 76:10–80:45
• Art, Opportunity, and Embracing Failure: 96:01–113:05

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Tone & Style

The episode is fast-paced, candid, occasionally argumentative but always collegial—with the tone swinging from impassioned sports banter to deeply engaged, sometimes philosophical debate about culture and art. Simmons’s trademark sarcasm and everyman references are balanced by Fennessey’s industry perspective and Lathan’s advocacy for underrepresented artists.

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For First-Time Listeners

You’ll come away understanding:

• The risks/rewards of this year’s NFL trades and how franchises are recalibrating amidst parity and uncertainty.
• How Hollywood’s risk calculus and obsession with profitability have squeezed out the “middle class” of films—and what this means for the next generation of storytellers.
• That real, original, hard-fought (sometimes uncomfortable) debate—on both football and film—is alive and well on The Bill Simmons Podcast.

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Notable Quotes Index

• "Two dates and ready to propose." —Sheil Kapadia (05:28)
• "Deranged old man behavior." —Simmons on Jerry Jones (33:14)
• "Bad art is as essential as good art." —Van Lathan (111:29)
• "It's really hard to make good shit... There's a whole journey to get to the end." —Simmons (96:29)
• "We're living in an ecosystem where there are movies just for streaming...and that's okay." —Van Lathan (94:35)
• "Putting the time in day after day... some people want to take the shortcuts." —Simmons (96:49)

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Listen if you want:

• Dissection of NFL front office logic (or lack thereof)
• Real talk about rebuilding (on the gridiron or in a movie studio)
• Spirited arguments about creativity, culture, and gatekeepers in both sports and film

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every sports fan has debates. Should your team rebuild? Do the analytics miss what makes players great? Well, that's where Claude comes in. AI that thinks through problems with you. Analyzing complex data, researching historical trades, working through complexity step by step to help understand the real why behind roster moves. Try Claude for free at Claude AI Simmons and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook as well as the Ringer Podcast Network. We put up a new rewatchables last night. We did the Truman show with special guest Glenn Powell and he was great and the podcast was awesome. So I would highly encourage you to go check that one out. You can listen on not only on the Ringer, but on the Ringer website as well, all of our football stuff. Trade deadline happened this week. Some head scratchers. Shield Capadia is going to come on in one second and talk about that, and then I'm going to run something. So yesterday Sean Fantasy and Van Lathan and I did a rewatchables and we did two hours on a Brian De Palma movie. And at the end, as I was saying goodbye and wrapping it up, we got in this conversation about De Palma and filmmakers and just movies and went for like another 75 minutes. And it was. It was kind of an argument, but we're all friends, so it was just like more like a debate. And we ended up talking about the future of the movie business, how to find young filmmakers. What is creativity in 2025? It's just, it just goes all over the place. And we decided to cut it out of the rewatchables and just run it here because otherwise the Rewatchables would have been three plus hours plus. I think it's something that can hold its own. And I thought it was really good. And it's the kind of stuff that, I don't know, sometimes in pods. I think people are afraid to really disagree with each other and get mad at each other and the whole thing. And I think with us, because we've all known each other for so long, we can have conversations where it's like nobody's trying to win the conversation. We're just arguing in a good way. So I thought it was really good and I wanted to run it here. So we're have Shield Capati and I are going to talk about the NFL trade deadline and Dallas and the jets and all the. And did the super bowl picture change and then Me and Sean and Ben talking about movies. Let's take a break. Bring in Pearl Jam. Sorry my video isn't great. I'm in Boston, but so be it. Anyway, taking a break. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like needing the protection of an offensive guard on the football field, but getting an elementary school crossing guard. Sure, they're both guards, but you can only trust one to keep your quarterback safe when the game is on the line. So don't settle for just any insurance when you can have State Farm like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. All right, we're recording. 4:15 East coast time. The host of the Ringer NFL show as well as the Phillies special, his fingers used to work a lot more. You're moving toward me with the fingers not working as much. Yokopadi is here. You can still get break them out every once in a while.

[B]

I can still break them out. I just wrote a little blurb about what the Eagles did at the trade deadline. Just not as good as they used to be.

[A]

Well, since you stopped writing as much, your picks went in the tank. I don't know if that's.

[B]

I mean that's a core the year from hell. Yeah, the Ringer 107.

[A]

Embarrassing. But that's not what we're here to talk about. I didn't expect to do an NFL trade deadline top of the pod today because usually it's a disappointing trade deadline. So many fascinating things happen today, I don't even know where to start. What was your number one most fascinating thing that happened today?

[B]

I mean that Sauce Gardner trade was crazy. Like you said, usually on trade deadline day we see, all right, some minor moves, maybe a third round pick, a second round pick if you're lucky. I can't remember the last time an in season trade two first round picks for a guy who, I don't know about you, I read all the coverage. I don't remember anyone saying, hey, maybe the jets will trade Sauce Gardner at the trade deadline. So that was a stunner.

[A]

Well, I know I have some jets fans in my life, as do you. None of them were like doing backflips about how Sauce Gardner was playing for the last year and a half. And I even noticed like it's not like I have the jets on the multi view every week, but I've watched a bunch of them and it just felt like he was a little better two years ago. Still really good. If I'm giving that up for a cornerback. You better be by far the best cornerback in league. Like, if they did this for certain, I would be like, all right, I get it. That guy's been lights out. I get it. They also throw in Mitchell, who was their second round pick a year ago, who might be a good receiver. Like, he basically got banished after he had the stupid wave the baby over the goal line move. So I just thought they gave up so much. We could talk about that piece. But is that too much for Sauce Gardner?

[B]

I say yes. I mean, I'm looking at, you know, people's reactions and they're all excited about this. But to me, if you're the Colts, like you said, for two first round picks, it's either a quarterback. Miles Garrett or Micah Parsons. Like, if you're offering me two, first Justin Jefferson. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think you could make the case for Jamar Chase. I mean, there's probably maybe eight to ten players, but basically for a defensive player who's not a pass, an elite pass rusher in their prime, if I'm getting offered two first round picks, I'm listening every single time. And so if you're the jets, you know, he, he is on a good contract. He's young, but I like getting the two first round picks for him. And if you're the Colts, to me, if you, if you're not settled at quarterback, like, to me, this. There are some red flags here, Bill. Like, the Colts are telling us they feel like they can win it all. You know, they can get to the Super Bowl. They feel like they found their quarterback in Daniel Jones. Remember, he's a free agent at the end of this season. So they're like, oh, this is our super bowl window. And to me, it's, it's, it's kind of like, you know, your friend who goes out on two dates with someone and they're, they're in love, they're ready to propose. Like, take it slow. Let's get a little bigger sample with Daniel Jones. We have like six years of history with this guy because those picks, you might need those picks to get a quarterback. I hate to say it, but like, like, let me ask you this question. A year from now, what are the odds that we're saying the Colts need a quarterback a year from now? November, early November. That we're saying, you know what, the Colts are kind of in the market for a quarterback.

[A]

50. 50.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

So I love your two dates analogy, too. And, and by the way, they had an awful date last Week?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

I got in a fight at the restaurant and she threw up in the car on the way home and disappeared for eight hours. Yeah. And then had diarrhea all over the place. That's how bad that date was. So if they made this trade a week ago, I'd feel a little better about it. But coming off that game, he was like, all right. And I was. Both of us were like, shit, this Colts offense is for real. Like, this team is checking all the boxes of. They're blowing teams out. They can run the ball, throw the ball. They're really well coached, at least so far. Let's see it on grass. I picked them last week in Ringer 107. I thought they're better than the Steelers. That's a game. If you have a really good, possible Super, super bowl contender team, you're going into Pittsburgh, you're taking care of business. And it was the opposite. It was really bad. And I don't think Sauce Gardner changes my fears about them on the road. On grass now, maybe they're thick and shield.

[D]

We don't.

[A]

We're not going to play on grass. We're going for the one seed. It goes through us, through a dome, and we won't even see grass again until we get to Santa Clara is the only thing I can think.

[B]

Yeah, if you're a Colts fan, like, like you said, you're probably excited about it because you're like, ooh, we got a stud corner. We're having a very fun season that we didn't expect with Daniel Jones. So I get that perspective if you're a Colts fan. But, yeah, I, I'm just with you with the, with the 50, 50 and even this year, I mean, they're having a very good season. We're talking about an eight game sample that has been an outlier from anything Daniel Jones has done previously in his entire career. When you look at what he's done, it's not nine games. Cause like you said, they sucked last week. They looked terrible. He turned into a pumpkin. And by the way, they had the hardest remaining schedule in the NFL. If you just look at the betting markets, you know, they do the strength of schedule, it's the hardest remaining schedule in the NFL. So I'm not telling you it's all fraudulent and they're going to stink. If it were me, I would say, all right, I can see being tempted, but let's just take it slow. We have a good team. Maybe we make a more minor move here at the deadline. Trade a third round pick for somebody, that kind of thing. Let's see where we're at at the end of the season. Maybe we franchise tag Daniel Jones, maybe we don't. We have those picks we could trade for a player in a future year. To me, it's just, you know, two years from now, we could be looking at that pick if the Colts win. I don't know. How many games are the Colts going to win next year? Like, are you confident they're going to win that division? I'm not. You know, that could be a top 15 pick in 2027.

[A]

I looked up at FanDuel as you were talking. Even this year, they're over. Under is 11 and a half. They're seven and two. Six and two. Seven. No, seven and two.

[B]

Seven and two, right? Yeah. And.

[A]

And seven and two with the leverage game happening, right? Really? Probably six and three.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But fine, seven and two. I don't know if I would go over on them this year. And then next year, everybody's a year older. They got a really. They got one more really awesome, healthy Taylor season this year, at least so far. Now that I'm their pick, I guess that the bigger thing I'm looking at this is I'm not against the spirit of the trade. If it had been a second this year and a first next year, do you feel better about that? Because I know, like, everybody, like, McShay's been saying this and please listen to McShay show this week. He's talking about. That 27 draft is like a smorgasbord for quarterbacks and wide receivers. Right. That's everybody's kind of pointing at, watch out for that draft. So you want to keep that first round in that draft, I guess. But would you care about this one? I don't know. Is that not enough?

[B]

I still wouldn't be willing to be that aggressive at this point in time. I mean, my whole. You wouldn't have done that.

[A]

You wouldn't have done a second and a 27 first for Sauce Gardner.

[B]

I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't push my chips in right now. Because if I'm. If I'm in that Colts building and in the meeting room and they're having this conversation, I'm going like, if I'm the Bills or something, a team where you're just like, we have our quarterback, the Patriots, even, I could say, all right, let's go ahead and take a big swing on something like that. We know we are not worried about quarterback right now. If I'm not set at quarterback, I want to keep all my options open for maybe a trade, maybe a veteran, maybe having to draft somebody in the future. And I know the Colts might not be at that like the Colts, and I view Daniel Jones differently, I think is what. What I learned this afternoon when I was looking at all the analysis, because I'm just like, I need to see more to actually trust it. So, yeah, I would have want to keep my picks. I want to keep my options open. I'm with you on the spirit of the trade. Like, I'm not, you know, Sam Hinkey, like worshiper or anything. I'm like, yeah, I like it. You have a chance, go for it. I just don't view them as that. Like, I would still be very, very surprised if the Colts were in the super bowl this year or next year.

[A]

Well, it's interesting because my beloved Patriots, they did the opposite. They didn't do anything. Yeah, this is a team that really needed over everything else, an edge rusher, which your Eagles went and got Jalen Phillips. Maybe the Dolphins didn't want to trade in division. I don't know the history behind that. But the Patriots needed an edge rusher. They really needed a wide receiver other than Diggs, who can get open on third and eight. And Diggs, he's playing between 40 and 55% of the snaps. Right. And you look at the guy, once Booty went out last week, it like. Like Matt Collins played three fifths of the game. Kyle Williams, who I don't think. I can't remember a single play he's made all year. He played half the game. So I see like whether it was somebody like Shahid, which I will talk about in a second, I thought that that guy's always open five times a game. He just has never had a quarterback who can reach him. But he's always down the field with three steps on somebody. Whether they got somebody like that or a Cooper cup type. Cooper cup, obviously not him because he's on a team, but they did nothing. And do you feel like the Colts are that far ahead of the Pats to try to make the AFC title game? I don't feel that way. No.

[B]

No, absolutely not. And I thought the Patriots were going to be aggressive here because they're one of those teams that has the cap space, as you know, in season. So they could have taken on a.

[A]

Trey Henderson cap space. We have 48 million dollars. We have like 17 million more than anyone else in the league I know.

[B]

So you could have taken on someone like Trey Hendrickson here I thought Chris Olave on the Saints, I thought do you get aggressive and give them like a second round pick for Chris Olave? Do they do that deal? I'm with you on Shahid. You know the deal the Seahawks made. I would have done that deal if I were the Patriots. So yeah, I would be a little disappointed if I were the Patriots. I mean I think they have a chance again. Those future draft picks are valuable, but they know they're not going to need to use those on a quarterback. So I can't believe Trey Hendrickson didn't get I mean what are you doing if you're the Bengals? Like this to me is organizational malpractice where your team has no shot this year. The guy's a free agent at the end of the year and you're trying to like you can't just say I think the price is a first round. The price is what someone is willing to pay. So you shop him. What's the best deal I can get? And those teams like if I'm a fan of one of those teams that is out of it, I and just held onto one of these guys who's gone after the year, I would just be so upset with my front office.

[A]

Their season ended on Sunday.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

Just period it's and it was probably over already, but it definitely ended on Sunday with that with Caleb Williams hitting Loveland over the middle and three guys blowing the tackle. I just, I like I'm with you. I mean they do this and if you go like as you know, I like searching the team Reddit's it's one of the only Reddit searches I do. I just like to check the mood. I have all the teams bookmarked Bengals Reddit's a grim place, man. That, that is like about as dark as you're going to get out of the 32 teams with just they just don't spend money. They don't care about anything. They're basically like the Clippers when Donald Sterling on them of just like happy to cash all the media paychecks from the league spending just enough money to seem like they care, but not really. And then the team they put together this year just to pay Burrow and two wide receivers have no offensive line and no defense and think that was going to work. It was idiotic. Yeah.

[B]

And they've spent so much draft capital on that defense. Like they've tried to invest resources and none of the picks have pinned. I mean that's one of the worst defense. I think you said it On Sunday, it's absolutely in the running for one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. I think there's five games this year where an offense has had 500 yards and three of them have been against the Bengals.

[A]

They're really truly generationally horrible. Like one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. Back to the Jets. The Patriots played them twice, which I was like, I was. So please trade all of your best guys. We still have to play. So basically the pats are 9 and 2 right now. Unless they have just a catastrophic loss. Anyway, the jets get Indies first. Dallas is first in the Williams trade because it's either the choice of Dallas or Green Bay. And I'm going to take a guess that Dallas is going to be worse than Green Bay. So Indy's first. Dallas is first and they made their own first better with these trades. I looked at Fanduel. The over under for them right now is three and a half. You could do jets under two and a half plus 270. I'm in Boston. I did think about it. It might be happening later, but three really good picks, two potential top 10 picks. The problem is it's Groundhog Day. This is what the jets did four years ago. So this is just who the jets are. Every they draft, they hit some picks, they blow it with a quarterback. Four years later, they just trade guys and they start over, rinse, lather, repeat.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't guarantee them anything. Like, like you said, it could just be the same thing in three years from now. We're like, oh, they're, you know, they drafted those guys and they're trading them now. I do feel like at least it's a plan. And I think their biggest thing is how are you finding a quarterback? I mean there's got to be. Are you drafting one? Are you doing one of these reclamation projects? Are you trading for somebody who might be unhappy after the season? So I think this at least gives you options. You have five first round picks, two second round picks over the next two seasons. Again, it doesn't guarantee you anything. But if I were a Jets fan, the one thing I can say about those two trades, like they absolutely maximize the value. If you would have asked me a week ago, hey Shield. What, what sauce Gardener going to get on the open market? What. What would Quinn and Williams get? I would not have said you're going to get back three first round picks and a second round pick in that deal. So I think they at least if.

[A]

You'Re going to pick from a bad team Potentially, Yeah.

[B]

Like you said, that's.

[A]

Could be like a top 42 pick.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. There's.

[B]

There's no guarantee. So that's a lot of draft capital to work with. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it gives you a chance to find a quarterback, build your. I mean, they do have two good offensive tackles. They have a wide receiver once. It's not like some of those premium positions. They do have some players, at least.

[A]

The guy who made the trade. What's his name?

[B]

Muji.

[A]

Muji.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know how you pronounce it. I guess I should.

[A]

He was getting a lot of praise in Jet circles today. Rightfully so. Those were two really good trades. He also did give Justin Fields two years, $40 million. I mean. Correct. That also happen. I have a friend. I have a bunch of jets fan friends in my life, including my friend Mark Cimino, who is so upset about Darnold being good now because he always felt like Darnold was good and they screwed it up and they didn't buy and they basically just ruined him. They basically. They had this nice house and they just did not take care of it. And the ceiling started to collapse and the sewage system blew, and they just blew it with him. And he actually watches Darnold wherever he goes. He watches the games to torture himself because he's a Jets fan. But that's. That's how dark it is for this jets thing. Like, they actually did it correctly. They did land a quarterback and the guy bounced around and now like, he's potentially going to be on a 1 seed after going 14 and 3 last year.

[B]

Shield jets fans have a. I found this too. They have a very soft spot for Darnold where like, like me, you know, you're. You're probably like me. Like, you know, if the guy gets traded away and you're like, oh, my God, screw that guy. You know, he couldn't do that here. That might be more. More. More hour speed. But yeah, I think because Darnold just seems a very cool, likable guy who was just in this horrible situation and it's like, oh, you know, we're. They're. They're genuinely happy for him, which is something you don't see often in sports. But yeah, I mean, you look at.

[A]

That now and because they know they. He was in the worst situation for one of the worst franchises, and I don't think they blame him. Also, he grew the beard thing, I think was a great move by him. I feel like it did change his Demeanor, something seems cooler about him. But yeah, yeah, he's going to be in the mix now, so I want to save Dallas for a little bit later. So Indianapolis, where do you have them in the AFC right now after this trade? Like, if you had like the gun to your head, afc, super bowl pick, how many teams would you have to list before you got to them?

[B]

All right, so definitely the Chiefs, definitely the Bills.

[A]

I have both of those as well.

[B]

I think I would still have the Ravens in there. I know it's a long shot really, to get to the super bowl because we're talking ceiling here. We're not talking about regular season wins or. Yeah, I think the Ravens have a higher ceiling than the Colts. I mean, I don't know if that's controversial or not.

[A]

I wouldn't have gone that far. I had Denver over them only because of the defense. I am, I am. And there's a little bit of a horseshoe stuff with them. I thought when they played the teams were even and I actually thought Denver should have won.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

New England, I would not have over them just because I think New England has some real holes. Like what?

[B]

I mean, are you sure you're trying to be like you. You might be leaning too much anti homer here. I feel like. I don't think anyone's ever told you that on a.

[C]

On a. I might.

[B]

I think I would have the Patriots over the Colts.

[A]

Well, we have. May is a better player than anyone else on the Colts except for Taylor would be the case. But I.

[E]

The.

[A]

The hits that he's taken the last three weeks. This is all I talk about on my pat's threads. He's 17 sacks in the last three weeks and six in the last two. And I thought Atlanta really, really pushed him around and gotten his. You know, I thought they made it really difficult for him. I'm really worried about the injury possibility with them. I don't think they have a lot of depth, but this schedule, they might be able to get a two seat and be that team that we all look at and they're like, you know, underdogs in a round two home playoff game because nobody believes it's legitimate, which would be great. I would take that right now.

[B]

Yeah. Rabel has won as an underdog before in the playoffs. I think, you know, unbelievable. I would trust Drake May. I mean, the other thing with Daniel Jones and I. I feel like I'm really. I'm going to, you know, Colts fan. Sorry. But he's never gotten through a season and played well and been healthy. The entire. I mean, he, he has a very long injury history as well, so that's far from a guarantee. So I think I would go Bills, Chiefs, Ravens, and I think I would have the Patriots ahead of the Colts.

[A]

Wow. I would go. I'd go bills, Chiefs 1A, 1B in some order. I want to see more, but that they're right. They have to be the top two.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd go Denver three. I think I'd go Indy four, New England five.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Baltimore has too much room for error with the way they've constructed their season. Any other injury and they might not even. Plus you have Pittsburgh who just has. It's the Pittsburgh's this year's horseshoe of the ass team.

[E]

Right.

[A]

And the Steeler fans both know it. But then also get mad and, and say, what do you mean? It's like, all right, we had 11 turnovers forced against the Colts and Pats. Like that's unusual. Let's all agree that that's unusual. Like punts. Hating a punt returner. That doesn't happen with other teams. It's just you guys. So I. So I'd probably have the Steelers seventh out of that crew. Yeah, I know the Chargers are a cross off. The Chargers traded for a tackle from the Saints today. I think less to try to win the title and more to just make sure Justin Herbert doesn't get killed. Yeah, that was my takeaway on that trade.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think they can with. I mean, you lose two offensive tackles and if you look at their numbers this year when Joe Alt has been on the field or off the field, I mean it turns them from like A. The 6th ranked offense to like the 23rd ranked offense. So I just don't think they can withstand that. So, I mean, yeah, I'm with you. I just. It is now. I was slow on Darnold last year. I was slow on the Vikings, but it is just very hard for me.

[A]

To get rightfully slow. They lost.

[B]

I guess so. Yeah. But it's just, I mean, Daniel Jones is going to beat Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes in a play or even Lamar Jackson in a playoff game. That Colts team.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I was trying in my head to, to look at Houston every year as you know, because we, we all, we both studied the same stuff. There's always the second half jump team that's like 2 and 6, 3 and 5 and they make the jump. And I thought Houston had a real case to do that with the defense they have and getting their receivers healthy, et cetera, et cetera. That loss last week made me so mad. I'm still mad about it. I still can't believe the game management. And I really worry about. I think the coaching stuff has been really dicey with them and I think people have just because they made the playoffs the first year, everybody's like, remember we were celebrating Ryan's and Bobby Slowik. Bobby Slowik's not there anymore. And Ryan's. The stuff he did on Sunday, I just was, I thought it was really, really concerning. Like that get to overtime, you're not going 60 yards with Davis Mills in 70 seconds to kick a field goal like Davis Mills has done nothing for two hours. And to not read that, I just thought right. Really made me turn on them.

[B]

And then you zoom out. If you're a defensive head coach, your biggest hire is can you find an offensive coordinator. And yeah, he's, you know, he didn't have it the first time, the second then personnel wise, I mean their offensive line is still terrible. So I'm with you. I've been holding. You know, my Ringer 107 record is so bad. If you take out my Texans picks, I swear I'm 500. I mean, I lost on them every single week, but yeah, their defense is so good. I still like Stroud even though he's developed bad habits. But yeah, last week's loss, now he's got the concussion. I think you're right that it's probably too much has happened with them.

[A]

Yeah. All right, we'll take a break and then let's talk Dallas. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Thursday Night Football continues to deliver and FanDuel is keeping the energy up with their $2 million Thursday Night Football jackpot. You heard me. Place an anytime touchdown score bet using your profit boost and if your player scores the first or last touchdown in the game, you'll earn a share of 2 million in bonus bets. So for this game, Vegas versus Denver, I'm feeling RJ Harvey. Yeah, I think RJ Harvey's second half of the season rookie running back something good with him. So you can check out RJ Harvey's Touchdown Bet. You can head to FanDuel.com BS to download the app and get started. FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of the NFL, must be 21 + President select states or 18 + President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in must apply profit boost token on select market prize pool to be split equally among all eligible participants who made the correct first or last TD Pick Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus batch which expires 21 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. Seed terms at supportsbook.fanduel.com, gamma problem, call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric this episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everybody really hungry. Quarterback scrambles, Clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah, turnover. Suddenly dessert at 2pm doesn't sound so crazy. Wing formations, well, those can only mean Buffalo wings. As if they're ever not in play. Even the goal posts start looking suspiciously like french fries. It's almost like football. Sending the message to eat more food. Yeah. The good news? UberEats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long. From wings and pizza to chips, drinks and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. All right, the Dallas Cowboys. I'm proud of us that we didn't lead with them. Maybe one of the only football podcasts or shows that didn't lead with Dallas. Just kudos. Fist pump for us. Dallas is drunk. This is one of the worst you could make a case for the indie trade. I still didn't like it. If we were doing grades, I'd be in the C minus, D plus range. This Dallas trade is fucking bonkers. This is like a crazy NBA trade from the 2000s. If I was a Cowboys fan, my head would be doing 360s. You're three, five and one. You have no chance to do anything in the playoffs. What are you doing?

[B]

You should be absolutely livid. So here, here's the. You add it all up and here's what the Cowboys essentially traded if you add up the Parsons trade. So they traded Micah Parsons and a second for Quinn and Williams, Kenny Clark and a first. Plus they get some cap space in money. So essentially they move up from the second round to the first round and swap Parsons for Quinn and Williams and Kenny Clark. And though, let's not forget this, they lost games this year because they didn't have Micah Parsons. And so now you're in a hole here. They don't know what I mean.

[A]

You're giving away this year's pick that you made worse because you traded Michael Parsons.

[D]

Basically.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Congratulations on that. That's.

[B]

You've made history and the 2027 pick, by the way, nice move by the Jets. This is, according to the reports out there, is the higher of their pick or the packers pick. So, like, if Jordan Love goes down with an injury next year and the packers have a bad season, like, you get a little bit of optionality there with that as well. And who knows what the Cowboys are going to be.

[A]

Can you say that again? Yeah, I didn't see this. This is a new wrinkle.

[B]

Yeah, this is a new wrinkle. So the 2027 first round pick that goes to the jets as part of this Quinn and Williams trade, the jets get the higher of the Cowboys pick or the packers pick. So that's a nice move there by the jets that just if you. You know who. If Dak Prescott has an injury next year, if Jordan Love has an injury and one of those teams goes really bad, now all of a sudden you have an even higher pick. So can I tell you, do you know how many sacks Quinn and Williams has this year?

[A]

3.

[B]

1. He has one sack. He has three quarterback hits, and he ranks 90th in the NFL in pressures. Now, I'm not trying to kill him. I think he's a very good run stopper. I think he's a very good defensive tackle. I am not giving up a first and then a second with flex or a second and then a first with flexibility for Quinn and Williams. Months after I traded away Micah Parsons, just unbelievable mismanagement.

[A]

These jets trades were so crazy. As you were recounting what they got in my head, they got two firsts for Quinn Williams. Because this day was so crazy. Yeah, but, yeah, that.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

The. The 27 draft, everyone's saying is so loaded. So what? All right, you're in the room with Jerry Jones. How do you stop him from doing this? What's your case?

[B]

I mean, I have no idea how you stop him from doing this. I would have stopped him from doing the Micah Parsons trail or I would have tried my hardest, like I would have at that one. I would have gone to the point where I'm like locking us in the room or taking away his keys or grabbing his cell phone reception, whatever I need to do, getting him another drink and just saying, jerry, let's sleep on it and talk about tomorrow here. But then to come back, I mean, he's been foreshadowing this for weeks and months now, where he has done his weekly radio appearances and been like, well, don't sleep on us. You know, trade in one of these picks for a player we're we're going to improve that defense. And it's like, all right, if the right deal comes along, go ahead and do that. But I would not have done it for this deal in a season where you just lost on Monday night and looked terrible and are 3, 5 and 1. So you're essentially doing this for what, next season now, or you think you're making a run this season? I don't get it at all.

[A]

That's the key point is you were terrible last night. Yeah. By the way, this trade's probably still sitting there in February or March. A hundred percent, right?

[B]

A hundred percent.

[A]

Why not? Just, just, just wait. What are you guys doing? They were so bad last night. We had Berset last year in the Patriots. He, first of all, couldn't really move. He was so bad that it was a whole conundrum with the Pats fans. Like, do we throw Drake May in even though we can't block and just hope he survives the year over having to watch another Brissette game? And then I don't know what's happened to him in Arizona. Maybe the offense is better, but he demolished Dallas last night. Right. And that was. They were not one Quinn and Williams away from. Oh, this game would have been totally different if we had been able to control the middle line. Guys were wide open all over the place. They were doing whatever they wanted offensively. So, yeah, this is just like, honestly, it's like deranged old man behavior.

[B]

It is, it is.

[A]

It's the kind of thing like they, like when you're watching TV shows and they have like the old guy who owns the oil bear and the 85 year old grandpa, and it's like, wow, he still has the car keys to the business, but we gotta figure out how to get away from him. That's where we are now with this guy. And he, and he won't turn down an interview with anybody. Like, he invited Stephen A. Smith. He's doing a live serious show. It's like, what are you doing interviews about? You guys haven't, haven't made a Super bowl in 35 years.

[B]

Listen, I'll give him credit. He's good for content and he knows the content waves. You know, he was foreshadowing that he was going to make a trade. And then everyone's waiting and they trade for Logan Wilson, the linebacker who can't get on the field for the worst defense in the NFL, in the Bengals. And you're like, wait a minute, was this the trade? He was actually foreshadowing so he did make a splashy trade eventually. So nice job with him with the content. They got a lot of headlines in the off season with Parsons. They got a lot of TV segments. So I guess if you throw all of that into the trade along with the picks, maybe it comes out a little bit more even in his eyes.

[A]

This is a good example of let's remove the second round pick. Would you trade your first and it's the higher pick between the Cowboys and Packers for Quinn and Williams? I don't know. I would even do that If I was 3, 5 and 1. I'm just waiting until March now. Right.

[B]

Yeah. That you could at least consider that wouldn't be unreasonable. He's 28 years old, he's under contract. I think he's like a top five top ten defensive tackle. So you could at least talk me into that making some sense. But it's not a no brainer. It's not a home run. And now you threw in the second round pick as well.

[A]

The rest of the league must love having Jerry Jones in the NFL allowed to make trades. Did, did you have the Cowboys as a playoff team before the year?

[B]

I did before the Micah Parsons trade. Parsons trade, you had him in then post Parsons trade? I didn't. I had him out after the trade.

[A]

Well, they're going to be really bad their schedule after this Raiders game. Eagles, Chiefs, Lions, Vikings, Chargers are all on the docket.

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[A]

So if you're the jets, like kudos to the jets fans now you have teams to root against. Right. You can, you, you have these extra draft picks. You can throw yourself into the 2026 draft. It doesn't really matter anymore if you go 1 in 16.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I guess the one thing is they weren't able to trade Breece hall, which I thought was surprising. And you know, they wanted a third round pick for him. I guess I did think about it for the Pats, I wouldn't have done it, but if the price was a fourth round pick, I would have done it.

[B]

I thought the Chiefs, I mean, I was doing fake trades on the ringer NFL show and I'm like a fourth that maybe can turn into a third. If he does certain things here, that's.

[A]

Like the AFC title game. It's a third rounder. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I don't really understand playing hardball with that. He again, he's a free agent at the end of the season. So if you're not bringing him back, you see what the best deal is and you just take the best Deal rather than say, no, we're holding because you're holding out. And now you got nothing for him. And now he's probably walking at the.

[A]

End of the season. Well, I don't think they wanted to trade him in division. I'm trying to think for the. For the NFC teams. None of the contenders really would have needed him.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Just go through. I can't find a single one that would have wanted him. So that means you're looking at the afc and you look at the top AFC teams. I just don't think any. The Pats were really the only hope for them unless they were looking at the Chargers. And if you're the Chargers, like, what. You know, now that you. The Chargers lost both their tackles, they're not making the Super Bowl. They lost two of the best five guys in their team, so they're out. And then you go through. Yeah, it's a weird one. What did you think about. You know, it wasn't like, a huge price, but Jacksonville getting Jacoby Myers. I was just thinking, like, the amount of picks and money that they've thrown at running back and receiver to try to show that Trevor Lawrence could be a franchise guy. It's kind of staggering.

[E]

It.

[B]

I was unmoved, I guess, would be the kind way to. To put that with Jacoby Myers. Yeah, I mean, he didn't give up much. You know, I think they gave up a fourth and a sixth. He's okay. It's just. Yeah, that doesn't move the needle for me. Travis Hunter's injured. Okay.

[A]

And the Jags are okay.

[B]

Yeah, the Jags are okay. I mean, the Jags are such a dumb team. It just feels like they can't get through a drive without doing something absurd. Whether it's a penalty, a drop pass.

[A]

A missed Trevor Lawrence throw is the best.

[B]

Oh, my God. One of the most entertaining things about.

[A]

The season so far, when they're inside the 10, it almost feels like you're entering, like, the Matrix. My favorite trade was Shahid. I thought. I thought the Seahawks had a real chance to make the super bowl even before Sunday night, because their defense and the way they can throw the ball and they can block better than people think. And what happened in the Niners, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And adding Shaheed, with the way that. That. That Darnold's been throwing the ball and how good Smith and Jigba has been, and then they have Horton to cup. Nobody knows if he'll be available in January. Yeah, but Shahid is like, that's like a real dude. That could have a huge impact for them and fits what Darnold's strengths are. I really like that trade. Third rounder, I think.

[B]

Love it. Fourth and a fifth. So they didn't even have to give up. Yeah, fourth and a fifth. And I think it makes sense for the reasons right now. Jackson, Smith and Jigba has 948 receiving yards. No other receiver on their team has more than 293.

[A]

I mean, that's shocking when somebody else makes a catch.

[B]

Shocking.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like 85. Who? Wait, who's that? I forgot. What guy is that?

[B]

Yeah. So Shahid played for their offensive coordinator Clint Kubiak in New Orleans. So it's like, all right, he's going to know the offense, he's going to be a scheme fit. I thought that was one that made, made a lot of sense. They just kind of need another pass catcher there. So that might have been the best trade of the trade deadline day.

[A]

Best value, certainly. I think if you're giving a fourth for a guy who can swing your playoff destiny a little bit. I mean, same thing for Jalen Phillips that the Eagles got for your team. I know you already talked about it, but, you know, I don't think he was playing that great. He certainly wasn't jumping out of the TV for the Dolphins. But you know, you know how he always stockpiles all these extra things and then he can just kind of give one away and take a flyer on people. But you, you were okay with that trade?

[B]

Yeah, I thought that was a good trade. Like my whole thing with trade deadline is if you have a realistic shot to win the Super Bowl, I am fine with you being as aggressive as you want to be. And Phillips has played for Vic Fangio before. It's just a rental. You don't owe him money after this season. I think when teams get into trouble is when they talk themselves into stuff and then get really aggressive. And then you get to the spring and you're like, man, why did we give away that draft pick? Or you get to next year and you're like, why did we give away that draft pick? But you know, Fanduel has the Eagles as the favorites in the NFC right now. I was looking earlier today. So they haven't had those like season ending injuries that some of these other teams have had. Like their guys who have been injured are all coming back. So yeah, that was a. I mean, their pass rush hasn't been very good. So you add a player, you take a swing and you See if he can help you.

[A]

Eagles plus 380. Rams plus 440, which I think is really surprising, I would not have guessed that they had the second best odds. Lions plus 450. Packers 5 to 1. Seahawks 6 to 1. Tampa 11 to 1. I think the Seahawks should have the second best odds. I think they are the second best team in the NFC right now behind the Eagles. The Eagles have the pedigree. They have just a shitload of talent. They've been there before. Like, we know we're getting with them. I think Seattle's really good.

[B]

Those five are in the top tier. I think I changed my mind every single day. But yeah, I mean, you watch that Seahawks game from Sunday night and you're just like, man, they are explosive on offense. I trust their defense against great quarterbacks. Like if they had to face Matthew Stafford and I think they play in a couple of weeks here, so we'll see. But like, they're going to have a plan and they're not going to get blown out. I think their defense is too good to get blown out. So their offense is going to stay in it. Yeah, those are. It's going to come down to just like, all right, who's healthy in January? But those to me, are the five teams that can actually come out of the nfc.

[A]

Yeah. One thing I like to look at, especially around now, is are you in every game? Have you played shit games? Have. What's your record in either or games and stuff like that. The Patriots, I know that the schedule, by the way, is 16th strength of schedule. It's not quite as bad as everyone thinks, but they played six shit teams. Patriots have only been. How many times do you think they've been behind by 10 points this year?

[E]

Behind?

[B]

I can't remember in that Raiders game.

[A]

It's not a lot.

[B]

Once.

[A]

Yeah, the Raiders game. Week one Raiders game, they were down exactly by 10. Seattle's another one. Like Seattle has two losses but had a chance to win both of those games. Like, they haven't really played a shit game. They haven't been behind. Like you look at the Broncos. The Broncos have been behind by like 14, 10, 18. Like, like they. And they've climbed back. But I think it's. I feel the same way in basketball. I think it's a bad sign when you're just way behind in games. And I look at, I look at Seattle versus, like the packers, where the packers have just played a couple shit games. Yeah, the Browns game was a shit game. The one last week that Panthers game that was, like, just a shit performance, and it makes me not trust them. But I think that's the Matt LaFleur era in a nutshell. The packers kind of never know when the shit game's coming. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The packers are the NBA team that regular season. You're like. And then you're like, they think they can flip the switch in the playoffs, which you. You know, there's. There's NBA teams that. But the packers, like, haven't done anything to warrant that. That's my thing with them. It's like if they were defending super bowl champs and this was happening, or they always get there and you're like, oh, we've seen this before. Like, the Chiefs, you're like, all right, you know, we kind of know where this team's going to be, but they haven't done that yet. They still just play with their food for a half every single game. Like, they. And I think. I think they're still really good. I think they have a high ceiling, but they are a pretty frustrating team to watch.

[A]

The kraftang's massive.

[B]

Huge.

[A]

I just couldn't believe that. Not to mention, I had him on a couple of fantasy teams, but I just thought he was really blossoming as, like, oh, it's third and five. You know, where they're going. He's.

[E]

He'd be.

[A]

Was really becoming one of those guys in real time. And I'm not sure. Maybe there's more. Matthew golden now. I don't. I'm not sure. Where are they going on third and eight? I think it's always a great thing to think about. I think this is the thing I worry about with Buffalo, like, in a playoff game. We're down three. There's six minutes left. Where am I going on third and eight? If Josh can't do something, who is the guy? Is it Kincaid? Is it Cook coming out of the backfield? Who is your guy in this spot? The Pats have at least found digs, right? The Chiefs, they always have Kelsey, and now they have Rice back. But. But yeah, Green Bay, I don't. I don't really know who that guy is. Yeah, who.

[B]

Who's going to get you a bucket? It's man coverage. They're not playing soft. It's third and long. I'm with you.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I don't know that the packers do have that guy, you know, so. So that's a big. I thought Kraft was the best tight end in the NFL. I mean, he was a beast. Like, now Brock Bowers, I can Be like, all right, Brock Bowers, now that he came back, he was ridiculous.

[A]

That Brock Bowers performance on Sunday. He did in Week one, got hurt, took eight weeks off and he was. I mean, that was one of the best games anyone's played all year. They were like, they were just trying to take him out. They couldn't even take him out. They were just moving them around, doing different things.

[B]

Yeah, very uncommon for a tight end. Can just like lift your entire offense. But I thought Kraft had the belt before Bowers came back. And so you're losing. I mean, any of these contenders, you lose like your go to guy in the passing game. I think it's a big, big deal.

[A]

So who do you have in the nfc?

[B]

I still am sticking with my preseason pick, which was the Eagles getting back to the Super Bowl. Especially when you look at their division and how it's going, like they're not going to be needing to sweat that out down the stretch. So I think they're in a good spot just from a health standpoint. But I change my mind every week on that. I had the packers last week or two weeks ago, so who knows?

[A]

I had the packers before the year. The Kraft thing. I want to see what happens with Seattle over these next two, three weeks because people now know they're good, right? They're in a different space now. This is like, hey, this is a real team. We got to get up for this game and I want to see how they handle it. But the Darnold thing was been a home run. We didn't know if that was like Darnold versus Gino. How's this going to work out? Is Darnold damage goods? He was so bad and Darnold's doing great. They. They can block.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The defense is probably. It has to be in the top three, top four, depending on what's going on with your defense. Top three or top four. So I don't know. If I had to pick from a value standpoint right now, I would probably do Denver with Seattle, which is. What do you think that is? Denver vs. Seattle in the Super Bowl.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Just for a value pick.

[B]

Plus, that's gotta be. Man 900. Am I close?

[A]

It's 50 to 1.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. That's not even close.

[A]

All right, well put the Eagles in there instead with Denver and that's 36 to 1. You put Seattle with, let's say Buffalo 25 to 1. But I think Seattle, I think they really have a chance to get like a two seed and if they get a two seed and they get at least that first home game and then the two. Three, they have two home games, and then defense travels and they go into Philly potentially, and I think they'd have a chance. But then you'd have Darnold on the road on grass, which, you know, after interception three, you're like, why did I bet on this?

[B]

Yeah, the biggest thing with Seattle is, like, the way they want to play offensively is they get, like, all the tight ends and the fullback on the field on early days downs, and then you bring on your big. And then they create the. They do play action and then they hit you with explosive plays downfield. So my question with them is, like, if it's the fourth quarter and they're down by 10, and the defense is like, screw you, you can run the ball if you want to. We're not loading up to stop the run, can they do it? They've only attempted 48 passes this season when trailing in a game. It's by far the fewest of any team in the NFL. So I'm not saying they can't do it. Darnold has looked great, but that, to me, is kind of what I want to see here in the weeks ahead. Like I said, they get the Rams in a couple weeks, they get some of these opponents that maybe we'll see them in that kind of game script, but they've looked legit. There's. There's really nothing to knock about the Seahawks so far.

[A]

Well, and now with Shaheed, who knows, might tilt the field a little. All right, before we go, give us. Give us 48 seconds on VJ Edgecomb and what he's meant to you these past six weeks.

[B]

I haven't been this into a Sixers team in 25 years, and people laugh at me. They're like, what are you talking about? The last eight years, 10 years haven't been that bad. And I'm like, I've never. Just the watchability where I'm like, when do they play next? And like, AD and Gale. Okay, they're there at seven. I'm going to pot it this time. I'll catch it on dvr. That type of energy that you have with a team that you love hasn't been there for me in 25 years. I knew he was springy. I knew he was athletic. I knew he was competitive. The basketball IQ on this guy, he is making unbelievable passes and just mentally sharp plays. And his teammates love him. And you say, like, everything about him is just so exciting. So this is. Yeah, they get McCain back later, I think on. On Tuesday night here. So the best part for me is that the whole. Is Embiid playing? Is he. It doesn't matter. Like he. Oh, Embiid's going to the locker room.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

I'm still locked in and I can't wait to watch the second half with this team. So I have been just energized by this team this season. I don't care.

[A]

They're going back to O1. Iverson.

[B]

Yeah. I was at my favorite team of all the time.

[A]

You're this excited. Okay.

[B]

Senior in high school where I was just.

[A]

We go through the 2012 when they almost snuck into the. I did like that most Eastern finals.

[B]

With the Derrick Rose, Doug Collins.

[A]

That was fun.

[B]

That was fun.

[A]

All the process. 2018, when they lost to the Celtics. 2019, losing in the last second to Toronto.

[B]

No, I, I wasn't. Listen 17. I was into it because it was like for the first time they now have a. You know, they're finally back in the playoffs. But this again is just the. Hey, it's a. It's a Tuesday. It's a Tuesday in January. They're playing the Hornets at 7 o'. Clock. Do I want to watch that or do I want to, you know, watch. Catch up on Landman with my wife? No, I'm watching the Sixers. We'll watch Landman. That kind of energy is what really has me pumped.

[A]

Well, don't turn your back on Landman.

[B]

No. Yeah, we'll catch you.

[A]

Maxi and bj. It doesn't. None of it. None of it. Nothing else matters. You have your two guys. You'll be able to build around them. Edgecombe's going to be in this contract for, I don't know, three, four years before they have to extend it. And, you know, if I'm Utah, if I'm a Utah fan and I could have potentially traded marketing, taken Paul George back, but gotten that third pick and that third and three and five and got an Edgecomb. That one would be haunting me because I. I wonder if that was possible because Darrow was definitely shopping that three picks trying to look at who was around and you know, anyway, it all worked out. I'm with you. When league passes on, I'm like, oh, the Sixers are on. This will be fun. Yeah, like that They've just turned into one of those teams. Whereas, like, I hated watching them the last couple years. I couldn't stand it. There was just everything about it. The energy, the crowd was off. Now now it feels like a Philly crowd again. Like they really like these guys. So listen, congratulations.

[B]

I was Googling some eight game plans earlier today. Bill, my daughter wants to go. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I can't wait.

[A]

All right. You can hear Shea on the Ringer NFL show and on the Philly Special, and I'm going to pop on Ringer NFL at some point over the next couple weeks, maybe after if the Pats have a good win. That might be my virgin appearance. But good to see you. Thanks for coming up.

[B]

Can't wait. Talk to you soon.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by HBO Max. Get ready to go back to where it all began. From the director of it comes a terrifying new series set in 1960s Derry, Maine, exploring the unsettling beginnings of one of horror's greatest villains, Pennywise the Clown. The new HBO original series, welcome to Derry, is now streaming on HBO. HBO Max new episode Sundays at 9pm this episode is brought to you by Velveeta. Game day is all about the tailgate spread. Listen, if you're gonna have friends over, you absolutely 100% have to have a lot of things for them to eat. Everyone gets hungry. They can say they're not gonna eat. But guess what? If you lay out the right kind of spread and you have some good cheesy creamy melty dip with some good crackers, some chips, they're probably gonna eat it. So why not do creamy shells and cheese melty Velveeta box and cheesy jarred quesos? I don't know. Why wouldn't you? They're taking down one taste bud at a time. Do yourself a favor, stock up on Velveeta before kickoff.

[D]

All right?

[A]

As promised, this is the conversation that Sean Fantasy and Ben Lathan and I had near the end of a Rewatchables taping on Monday that went for so long, we just decided to run it here. And it's about movies and creativity and what drives people and all kinds of things. And it goes all over the place. And we all had a really good time arguing about it, and we just thought, you know what, let's run it here on the BS podcast. So that's what you're about to see. We taped this on Monday.

[C]

I was thinking about this. If this movie came out today, this exact movie, would people think it was good or terrible? I would argue probably people would not like this movie if it came out. The exact same movie comes out tonight. I feel like it would get panned.

[D]

It would be a streaming movie for sure.

[E]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

It just wouldn't go into theaters. A movie like this. I guess you could say that the most recent Austin Butler movie, Caught Stealing, is kind of like this movie where it's just like a crime drama with a movie star at the middle of it with some kind of gnarly incidents.

[A]

But, I mean, this movie costs $75 million.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

So this is my thing.

[C]

But is the bar higher? Are the stakes higher now? Like, why would this movie, if it's the exact same movie, why wouldn't it work now?

[E]

Well, it's not that it wouldn't work. It's about why you to me. To me and Sean could probably give a more thoughtful answer, but when the movies like this are back in theaters, to me, that will be when that experience is back. Like, I look at films like this, cool ideas executed by really talented people for everyone to see. But you have to get up and go to the movies.

[C]

It's so ip. It's slightly smaller in terms of what it's saying, I guess.

[E]

But at the same time, there's no ip. But this movie has a gigantic movie star, a legendary director, a big budget. There are reasons to go and see something like this. But as long as movies that this movie would exist on streaming now, I think that's kind of the problem, at least.

[D]

Well, one of the. Probably the. I would guess the single most popular genre of movie on this show over the years, if you had to do, like, a data analysis of every genre, it's probably crime thriller, right?

[A]

Yeah. Action thriller. Action thriller, yeah.

[D]

That's one of your favorite kinds of movies. Those movies are really fun about to.

[A]

Talk about because they always have nitpicks.

[D]

But those are movies specifically that don't work now that you don't see coming out now.

[C]

They also all have, like, a hint of kind of being funny because there's some cheesiness in them.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's completely gone now. And again, I don't know why that is.

[D]

De Palma has a big sense of humor. He doesn't do comedy ever, but he has a really good sense of humor about characters.

[E]

What's the specific thing about the action thriller that you feel like audiences aren't responding to?

[D]

I think it's because it's just in. It's. It's in the middle. And so there's no. It's like, this movie costs a lot of money to make. It's shot in, like, an arena with hundreds of extras. It's got a big set piece with this rolling ball coming down The Hill, like, it has the trappings of a big movie.

[C]

And this would probably be panned as a movie that was not profitable because it made a little bit more than its budget. But it probably ultimately lost money. Although maybe with the DV sale, DVD sales, it didn't.

[E]

That wasn't. That's another thing.

[C]

Totally. But now, if this happened now, and it was a $70 million movie that made like 95, the variety would write about how it. No, this movie lost money.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Not profitable for DePaul.

[A]

Maybe we should just shoot Variety to the fiery pits of the sun. How about that?

[D]

I'm definitely sick of reading those stories. I don't know.

[A]

Why do those stories exist? Because why did they do that with the Dodgers? Like, the Dodgers won their back to back World Series, but they spent $330 million and they didn't make their money back off.

[E]

Well, so this is the deal, number one. And obviously, you guys know I've played into this. I think that the economics of whatever it is have become such a part of what it is that we do. When people started reporting. Do you remember when Striptease came out? One of the biggest stories about Striptease was how much money she got paid to do the movie. They gave her like $12 million or something like that. I remember when Selena came out, it was like the first Latina actress to make a million dollars. That started us talking about the salaries of the actors and what it meant to be a $20 million actor.

[A]

Started us on Will Smith in this movie.

[D]

I think Will Smith and Jim Carrey were a big part of that in the 90s. And then you also had movies like Bonfire, the Vanities and Waterworld that were like, the budgets were constantly.

[A]

But it also was the whole infrastructure of people writing and reporting this for the first time in a real way.

[E]

They pre did this with Titanic. The Titanic was a very troubled production.

[A]

We talked about that in the pod.

[E]

A lot of money, but everyone thought.

[A]

It was gonna be a bust.

[E]

But that has evolved into this entire section of discussing movies that is about how profitable the movies are. And obviously people are listening and they know I've talked about this stuff based upon the talent and the budget and all of that stuff.

[D]

Well, the thing that you hear now, you hear maybe not normal people, but just general movie fans say things like, well, when you factor in the marketing, it's actually 70 million more. And it's like, you don't have to know that. That's not important for you to know as a movie fan. I talk about Box office all the time on the pods. I do think it is important because it tends to dictate what kinds of movies get made. So it's valuable to kind of understand why movies are working and not working. But the race to be like this movie failed after six weeks, I always find to be really, really strange. No matter who's making it.

[A]

It doesn't acknowledge the infrastructure we have now for movies where some people just wait till they're on Amazon or wherever.

[D]

There'S no visibility into VOD or they.

[A]

Want to buy a Blu Ray or whatever.

[E]

But. But for Variety or for whatever publication is doing it, they're doing it because it incites people.

[D]

It's stokes rage. Yeah, it's stokes rage.

[E]

Like it incites me.

[A]

The sports media is no different. It's all the same shit. What can get a headline and traffic and people to read these.

[E]

If you think about the budgets for these teams, they're different because of just the amount of joy that people get from the team itself. There's always going to be a conversation, particularly in baseball, about how much the rosters cost and all of that, stuff like that. But if a movie is a dud and it costs $300 million or $250 million like one of these Marvel movies, there's just a different experience that people have.

[A]

But why do people care like I care in sports? When the Red Sox get, you know, some picture for $180 million and the guy sucks and it's like, well, that affects me because we only had like four big money spots to spend and we fucked this one up. I'm mad, okay?

[D]

I have a question.

[A]

I don't care if Paul Thomas Anderson spent $100 million on a movie that.

[D]

I know you're mad, but to me, that was the same thing as Coogler. I felt exactly the same about both of those experiences. The Dodgers thing I wanted to ask you about though is the one thing with this Dodgers title is that this. I could be wrong about this, but I think this is the first World Series champion in which the 10 best players on the team were bought. Yeah, they did homegrow Will Smith and Max Muncie, but every star on that team is a free agent or they traded for him. Now that obviously reveals that the Dodgers are willing to spend in other teams or not. But does it in sports, does it change your mind on.

[A]

It changed in 92 and 93 with the blue Jays, ironically, when they got Joe Carter and Jack Morris and they went and got the best guys from homegrown guys from other teams. And we were all pissed off. I was pissed off. It's like, well, they didn't do this fair, but now it's like, that's just 30 years of baseball.

[E]

I am chronically and annoyingly in favor of the little guy in all things. Like to the great annoyance of a bunch of people. I get it. The same reason why I guess I criticize the big budgets in the movies when the movies aren't profitable is cause I'm always thinking about smaller creators. But I will admit this, I will admit this at a specific time, at the time we're in right now, where there are so few things that we can actually agree on in terms of things that are good. Good art. When you get good art, it shouldn't really matter how much it costs because at this point there is just. I don't know if people are paying attention to it. There are a lot of great movies that come out. There are a lot of great records that come out. There are a lot of great albums that come out. But the things that really to me seem like truly inspired art, that people are making it and putting their all into it and all of that stuff, it just kind of seems like there's not as much of that that I can connect to as I used to. And I'm not saying that it's necessarily true that people aren't making those things. I'm saying that there is something to be said. And I've thought about this after some of the conversations that we've had about one ballot after another, after everybody on set not having to worry about anything other than just cooking about everybody on set just being able to focus, not having to worry about when the money gonna run out or like when you gonna do this or how you gonna pay. Just everybody just worried about. There is something to be said for that. And I think that concentrating too much on the financials kind of gets us away from it.

[C]

Cause that was not a conversation. I'm assuming when Snake Eyes came out, nobody was like, was this profitable in the same way Babylon, which made like $70 million and cost probably similar to Snake Eyes, that was the only thing, oh, this movie lost so much money, it flopped. Yes.

[A]

You know what's interesting though? In movies, this has always been a conversation. And in sports it hasn't. Like I remember when I was a kid, inside, I think it was inside Sports, they ran an article, a cover story about the first million dollar athlete, Nolan Ryan. And it was like the COVID And it was like, these guys now make A million dollars. And I remember being a kid, like, whoa, that's a lot of money. But it didn't make me think differently of the athletes. But in movies, talking about whether something costs too much, you go back to, like, Cleopatra and that era. Yeah, did the Godfather. Did this cost too much? Did they make a mistake? Is this going to bankrupt the studio? This has kind of been the lingo for, I don't know, 70 years.

[D]

Trades are predicated on driving interest, but with the winners and creating mentality, just.

[C]

An angle to talk, to criticize, and.

[A]

To create panic for.

[D]

I don't.

[A]

I think it could be done.

[D]

If this doesn't work, we're treading in a dangerous. Like, I'm not attacking your territory. But I do think that the era of fandom did create a kind of, like, us versus them mentality amongst people, mostly online. No, in real life, people aren't like, I like this and I don't like this. But people are very eager to rush to tell. Like, people love to tell me that one battle after another is a flop because they know that it's my favorite director, my favorite movie of the year, and they want me to make. They want me to feel bad that it didn't make money. And that is a. Like, the thing that I like is more important and better than the thing that you like, which is a kind of insidious thing that has happened in.

[E]

Culture over time that has to do with the nerds. And it's just a fact, because I'll just be completely transparent. If you grew up, I'll speak for me. I'll speak for the nerd in me. If you grew up and for one. And I know that we have a similar upbringing as far as it's concerned. If you grew up and you collected over 3,500 comic books, right? And you read them all the time and constantly, constantly, constantly, over and over again. That was something that was supposed to be niche and something, no matter how much people love Superman or something that's supposed to be niche or something that's supposed to be weird, something, whatever. The comic book revolution, the Star Wars IP revolution, all of that stuff was a validation of everything that you did in your youth and you being able to do that stuff, do that and talk about it and having that go mainstream. I remember I used to be on TMZ being like, you guys would call us nerds. There's no nerds. The movie made $2 billion. We won. Right? And those movies exist. They have to have gigantic budgets. They have to have Huge budgets. But they are only validated. Nobody cares about how Good Robert Downey Jr. Was in endgame. Those movies are only validated if they make money. So the minute that they don't make money doesn't matter what. The minute that they don't make money, people shoot at them. People shoot at them. They go, all right, well, your big special thing that you love or whatever, it flopped. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Just like they never cared. And then you just go, okay, well, the thing that you love, it flopped. Nobody cares. What's the difference? And if the difference is just the quality of the art, that's always subjective, that is legitimately. There are very few movies that we can all agree, so that's always subjective. And that comes back to taste. Which taste comes back to hierarchy. Which opinions are actually important enough to be deemed important, which opinions are not important, which movies matter, which movies don't. That's a tale as old as time when you're talking about art. Like, we have that same. That's a jay z vs Talib Kweli conversation. That's. You know what I mean? So, like, all of that stuff.

[A]

But how does that explain why anyone would care if Sinners are one battle after another spent $25 million more than they should have? Who fucking cares? That's the part I don't get.

[E]

The response to the sinners thing was the who cares? The response to the sinners thing was the fact that at least initially, it seemed as if those two things, those two movies were treated in different ways. Sinners had a gigantic open. And the Variety headline, or at least what made it to Twitter, was, this movie opened big, but it's got a.

[C]

Long way to go to become profitable.

[A]

But it was one news piece, though. It was almost like the Lamar Jackson, how one person said he should be a receiver, and then that just became, everybody said he should be a receiver. It's like, nah, it was one idiot.

[E]

But you do understand that a movie that is that connected and that undergirded by a celebration of black culture variety, which is by far, to me, at least, the most relevant trade. Taking that spin on a movie that opened big. It actually opened. It opened big. That for. I'll just be honest with you. For a black man, you're good, but you're not quite good enough. I'll just say, okay, fuck you guys.

[C]

Bill, the answer to your one battle thing is, why are people upset?

[B]

They're not.

[C]

They're not. No one gives a shit. These are like the.001% of people online who are not real people are like stoking these flames that don't. Every normal person you'd see on the street would be like, I don't even think about movie budgets. How much did it cost? What does that even mean? I like the movie.

[D]

It's also just a context free recency bias in terms of reflection on what a movie means. One Battle and Sinners are made by the same studio. The profits of Sinners benefits the ability to make more movies like Sinners and One Battle after another Cookie. The second or third biggest movie of the year is, is Minecraft, which was also made by Warner Brothers. You don't make Minecraft to make an art film. You make Minecraft to make money so that you can take chances on other films. That is the story of Hollywood. That is what made Hollywood studios great is that they had this fine grain balance between, oh, you gotta make a wrestling picture. Because people like Wallace Beery movies in the 1930s, they're gonna show up, that's gonna guarantee X number of dollars. So then we can take a chance on something a little bit more audacious with an artist who we think is really interesting. That is a 100-year-old story. So if on Monday morning when you're looking at the box office returns, you're like, man, this sucks. One battle, it costs 140 and it's only going to make 207. Gosh, this could have been way better because you got to factor in the marketing. It's really disappointing. But that discounts the fact that it exists within a system in a studio, and that system exists around all these other studios and all these other companies that are thriving right now. So it's kind of an incoherent fight that I personally am having every other day and I'm a little exhausted about. But I also feel complicit in because it just drives the discussion. You know, it really does keep people interested in this stuff in a. In an ugly way.

[A]

The only time I've ever cared is when the studios would spend money on two. This is probably a more 2000s early 2010s thing. They'd have the money to really splurge on like three things. And they were always the wrong three things. And then if they did well, I would monitor that. Be like, oh, fuck, we're gonna get more of this shit.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Like, oh, man, that worked. God damn.

[E]

Last thing I'll say about this is obviously you guys know I bring a ton of baggage and bias into this, right? Because. Come on, man.

[D]

Why?

[A]

Oh, Baggage and Bias would be. That's going to be the next van podcast.

[D]

Baggage and Bias week on the rewatchable.

[A]

Baggage and Bias for Ben Nathan.

[E]

I bring a ton of baggage bias.

[A]

Hey everybody, welcome to Baggage and Bias.

[E]

It's facts and I own that because when they are choosing to overspend on these movies, they never do it with black creatives. Right? So there's a scratching and a clawing and it doesn't matter how good you are, what you've made, it's just there is a. And you know, some of that's demographic, some of that's like, you know, what does it mean to have a four quadrant movie and all of that stuff like that. So what I think is if we get back to just making cool movies.

[A]

We'Re kind of back to that maybe.

[D]

I was thinking a little bit.

[A]

25 is a year. I'm gonna think about it.

[E]

If we get back to making cool movies, I'm cool with a truce. But I am completely unconvinced that in any type of way we are going to see a situation where black art and art made by people that don't run the town and sit in all of this stuff is gonna be able to get $150 million and go out and not be profitable.

[D]

I think you can point to Sinners and at least say that's something that. That is a movie that nothing has really happened like that ever before. But thing I was thinking of while watching Snake Eyes was MBJ is kind of at a similar place in his career that Nick Cage was in. You know, he's like in his late 30s. He's kind of done every kind of movie. He's done serious drama, he's done IP spectacle, sports movie. He's been at the center of a sports movie.

[A]

You know, he Legal trial movie.

[D]

Yeah, he's been in the military movie. Like he really has touched all of the genres.

[A]

Tread comedy, bad Rom comedy did that.

[E]

Well, people don't even fucking remember that, man.

[D]

Movie.

[A]

We all agreed not to talk about it.

[E]

Yeah, people. What was your point with him though?

[D]

Just that a movie like Sinners is a movie that kind of like elevates you out of I'm a good star into I'm potentially going into a forever mode. Like there's going to be an awards push for him now. The same way that Cage got his awards push and that let him. He could make pretty much any movie he wanted for seven years in Hollywood after winning and leaving Las Vegas. And his decision was I want to make action spectacle, but you can go in another direction. You wouldn't have the same clout that you had in the 90s. But it's interesting. Like these guys, the decisions that they make at this point in their career also dictate the future of Hollywood. Like, Leo has spent 25 years being like, fuck it, I really like Scorsese. I'm going to get as many Scorsese movies made as I possibly can through the absolute center of my career that has been his primary focus.

[C]

And raise money to make the movies.

[D]

Even that's the whole story of Wolf of Wall street is him going out and raising the money to get that movie made so that Scorsese could direct it. So it is also incumbent on the stars who are at their center of movies to use their power to get cool stuff made and not just be cynical and not just make the same old boring action movie where they reach their quote, you know, like, and it's like, oh, well, I'll do it for Netflix, but I won't do it for Paramount because Netflix will pay my quote and Paramount won't. You know, like, they really. You have to sacrifice something to get that thing, no matter whether you're white or black or whatever in Hollywood.

[E]

Yeah. I mean, look, you're not wrong for me. I just look at there being such a contagion inside of the system of that.

[D]

Right.

[E]

And there isn't. I mean, we could talk about Michael B. Jordan. He's not Leonardo DiCaprio. Right. I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio at one point was the star of the biggest movie of all time. Right. There are things that, that factor into this that are different. One thing I do know is this, is that knowing as many people in this town as I do.

[A]

Oh, I like that. In this town, it's true.

[E]

That are looking to create. All they want is story. There's nothing else. There's no. For the majority of these people, there's no agenda, there's no nothing. They have things that are burning inside of them and they want to be able to tell these stories and they want to tell them. Sometimes they're going to be easy to understand. Sometimes they're gonna be incoherent, sometimes they're gonna be great, sometimes they're gonna be bad. Sometimes everybody just wants to get their shit out. And all of these other conversations are wrapped into age old schisms that have existed in America since time immemorial. But we just wanna watch and make movies. And that to me, sometimes we talk about a lot of other things. But we just want people to be able to make movies and watch movies and all of that shit.

[C]

How are you grappling with the fact that perhaps the decline of the superhero movie might be the thing. Original storytelling?

[E]

I think everybody. I mean, like, would you.

[C]

Is that a. Is that a trade off that you're willing to take?

[E]

Certainly, I think everyone. It doesn't matter what type of movie is being made. The action star that we're taught, that we talked about before, Van Damme, Schwarzenegger, all of those guys, they got market corrected. Seagal, Seagal, those guys got. Those guys got market corrected. Stallone, they did. They got market corrected their genre, their movie making.

[A]

They were superheroes.

[E]

They were superheroes. Their movies didn't last forever. So, like, we'll see what is next and we'll see what happens next. I'm good with it.

[A]

I think it comes down to the same thing as always, writers and directors.

[D]

The thing I do, we always talk.

[A]

About who's the next movie star and do we need more movie stars? And obviously we do, and it's always nice to have them. But if you have the ideas and you have somebody who knows how to make it, you can win 12 games with Alex Smith. Basically, to use a Kansas City Chiefs.

[D]

Analogy, that is the. In this town, the thing that I hear the most is who's the filmmaker? Is there a filmmaker who can bring to a story this sense of event? That's the thing that everybody is looking for, is how do you eventize something that in 1998 maybe didn't necessarily need to be communicated like that? But if you look at what the major studios are doing now, it's like Warner Brothers putting their arms around Coogler and PTA and Zach Kreger this year. If you look at Universal putting their arms around Daniels, Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, Jordan Peele, like, these are strategies happening inside the studios where they're like bankable, awesome guys. You know, Netflix going all out for Greta Gerwig for Narnia. Like, that is the move. That's the. And the problem is the thing that you're describing, which is that the studios don't develop the talent like they did in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. They don't let people take shots the same way. You gotta make it for yourself. And then if you get lucky, you get noticed, and then you get plunged into the. Into the deep end, Right?

[E]

Even those guys we're talking about, though, those guys had to break the system. Like these filmmakers. Once again, not a new phenomenon. When you talk about it. Doesn't seem like it now, But Lucas, Spielberg, DePalma, all of these guys, like, even the generation of actors that came before them, like Hoffman, Nicholson, all of those guys, they had to break a system.

[D]

Yeah, they all functionally worked in independent cinema. Right.

[E]

They had to break a system. And we got to a point to where a lot of this stuff got. There needs to be, if not a breaking of it, but certainly a resetting of it.

[A]

But people roman emphasize the 70s and the 70s were bonkers if you look at how they made movies back then. And then the 80s were basically all cocaine, but the 70s were just like, yeah, here's money. And just like. Like the. I mean, how many books do we have about all the crazy shit that they just let people do? Like, that's not coming back. The 80s aren't coming back. The 90s are probably the closest to where we need to be.

[E]

How do you mean? What do you mean?

[A]

Just like just letting people, Letting young filmmakers or letting good filmmakers, giving them real money to make what they want to make.

[E]

It's over.

[A]

I think it's coming back. I really do. I think we're closer than we were.

[D]

It's just.

[E]

What I'm saying is if there is no like, that would be like taking away high school baseball. If there's no appetite for letting smaller, less established filmmakers get reps, work out story and do all of that, that has to exist.

[D]

There's an interesting thing happening next year at the movies. There's this movie. A24 is putting this movie out called the Back Rooms. I haven't seen it. I can't remember the filmmaker's name, but he made these YouTube videos that are sort of like creepypastas. They're like. It's like a horror movie idea that he made on YouTube. And based on this idea, he was drafted by the studio to adapt what he made on YouTube into a feature film. The film's got real stars in it. He's 20 years old, and it is like. It is the thing we're talking about. It's a studio trying to identify somebody really early on, giving them a shot.

[C]

Kane Parsons.

[D]

Kane Parsons, that's his name.

[A]

I read about this.

[D]

I don't know if it's going to be good or not, but that's what Cord was talking about in his speech. The backrooms is not going to cost probably more than $5 million. Take more bats, let people.

[A]

Work.

[D]

Because if you did find one based off of his YouTube videos, then that's an annuity. That's going to pay off forever. If you're a studio, if you sign that person up, like, if you're trying to find the next Christopher Nolan, you got to give them chances to try to make their movie.

[A]

I think the 90s were the last time where this actually happened, though, and there are a bunch of reasons for that. But I also feel like Kevin Smith, like, yeah, that and it was pre Internet. And I wonder sometimes, does the Internet in some ways make it less likely for somebody to just have an imagination to come up with a story because they have easier things.

[E]

Talent isn't there?

[A]

No, I'm. I just worry sometimes that there's so many distractions you think about when people make art. A lot of times it happens because they're bored or they have nothing else to do. And it's like, I guess I'll just write this chapter of this book I was thinking about, or I guess I'll try to make this song, or I guess I'll try to flesh out this movie idea versus, like, I'll go on Instagram. That sound like the old guy. But I do really worry about that.

[C]

I think that's real.

[E]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with one statement more.

[A]

Let's hear it. But you don't have kids, though. I do. I watch how my kids spend their time versus how I spend time.

[C]

I think the idea of making a movie feels so arduous and long and now you can just get. Get famous on Instagram. You can make smaller jokes.

[A]

There's shortcuts everywhere.

[C]

There's other ways to get your creativity out.

[E]

I'm not saying that kids are not preoccupied with other things right now. Yeah, two things. One, the idea that people created out of boredom before, to me, just skips over the fact that I don't think that Quentin Tarantino was bored. I think Quentin Tarantino was.

[A]

You're misunderstanding. Bored.

[C]

But what else was there for him to do? There was no TikTok.

[E]

No, no, no, no. He was upset.

[C]

But I'm saying.

[A]

But the reason you became obsessed is because you had less to do. That's why I read everything now.

[C]

There's like a thousand other things you could make using digital tools. That doesn't necessarily mean a feature film, but what.

[E]

Yeah, I get everything that you guys are saying. I'm not at all discounting.

[C]

Hasn't Tarantino himself said, if he were alive now, he's like, I would have never made it as a director.

[D]

I would have said, he would not have been a filmmaker.

[E]

That's Fine. I'm telling you right now that's concerning. Like, I'm telling you that's fine. I'm telling you right now. Right now. I'm not even. I'm in no way conjecturing this right now. There are thousands, if not millions of people that want to get their movies made. And, like, they want to get their movies made, and they don't want to get their movies made because they're bored. They want to get their movies made.

[A]

Because you can't weaponize the word bored. I'm telling you. Like, people. People became passionate about stuff because they had less options for what to do every day.

[D]

I think you're both right. I mean, I think the thing is there are still people that have always existed who have an artistic idea burning inside of them, and they're obsessed with the medium that they're supposed to make it for. Like, I. I have a couple of friends who are younger filmmakers, a couple people I've interviewed on the show and become friendly with over the years who are in their 20s, who. I'm like, this person's just born to do it. This is all they've ever cared about. And it doesn't matter that they're Gen Z. Like, they love movies, they worship movies. They have something to say. But there are less than there were because there is more around that you can put that energy into.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe it's more like distractions than being bored. It's just. I don't know. I wrote a book once because it was like, all right, what am I going to do late at night? I'll just do this.

[D]

I think video games are an amazing kind of rejoinder to this, because the amount of time you can spend just playing video games and going into those worlds, that doesn't mean that people. People that weren't throwing themselves into cinephilia and seeing every movie ever and then still going out and making movies.

[A]

Well, so that's a bonus. Like, you can watch so many more things now that accepts your passion. You can just be like, I'm gonna watch three movies, four movies today.

[E]

You know, I think is tainting my opinion of this is like.

[D]

Well, you know, a lot of people that are trying to get shit made.

[E]

Well, I've produced some movies.

[A]

Yeah, but that's. But that's over there, though. That's a separate topic. Well, no, think about this. When you're in your car. But when you're in your car driving.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

And you're at a stoplight, what do you do?

[C]

Look at your Phone, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

What do you do when you shower? You listen to a podcast.

[E]

The Godfather isn't available. Like, I still watch it. I still watch a shit ton of movies.

[A]

But I think people are distracted way more than they used to be. And back in the day, your imagination would run rampant because you didn't really have that much else to do at a stoplight. You just thought about weird shit.

[B]

Partially.

[C]

I think that's you guys.

[E]

It could be. I'm telling you right now, like, there's a guy and it's so weird that I haven't emailed him back. So maybe there's a guy that emails me every single day. Every day.

[D]

Now you're just encouraging him.

[E]

No, I'm gonna eventually get back to him. I gotta watch the movie. He emails me every day about the movie he made. And every email is different. Every email is like, this is a film that we came together and made in Toronto, and it's about this. And let me tell you this, then the email on top of the email is van. I know. I worked as a radio dj. I know so few of these emails get through. And I've read every single one.

[D]

And not to crowd you out, but this dude also emails me.

[E]

Does he?

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Okay. But that's not about crowding me out. That just shows to me, that just holds me how important it is that his thing gets seen. And I get that people are creating all types of things. I get that they are. But, guys, people out here are desperate to get their stories told.

[A]

That's no different than 1990.

[D]

I'm telling my story every decade in OS. Every time I get a stack of Blu Rays from the same director out and put them in chronological order and take a photo of them and put them on Instagram. That's me making art.

[C]

I feel like Tarantino saying that if I were alive now, no way I would have been a director is like. Like the beginning and end of the argument.

[D]

I love him, but he's a contrarian.

[E]

I think that's also horseshit.

[D]

He's trying to fuck. I think he's trying to fuck.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

I actually think about what I have written. Sports columns. If I grew up 40 years later, the way people grow up now, you'd.

[D]

Be making awesome YouTube videos.

[A]

I think it would be different. Right?

[D]

The most amazing thing.

[A]

It would have done something, but I don't know if it would have been the same thing. And I definitely wouldn't have read all the books I read.

[D]

But what you did about Game five on your pod if you were not who you are now, you would have found a way to do it in a different venue, in that way. Cause that's the most consumable way. That's the other thing, is that it's about wanting to be seen. Like wanting to be.

[A]

By the way people consume stuff.

[D]

Everybody wants to be understood now. And everyone feels like they can be understood because we have this right. It's harder to make a movie. It takes a year, five years.

[A]

It takes a million dollars.

[E]

I will tell you this. It's harder to make a movie, but there's also no substitute for it.

[D]

Oh, I agree with you. You know, I agree with that.

[E]

And so it's definitely harder. It's definitely harder to make a film. There's also no substitute for it. There is some kid. As much as we're talking about, we're leaving out one portion of it, which is inspiration. There is somebody that went and they watched Sinners and they sat down and they were however old they were, and they saw the medium that was on the screen telling a specific story in a way that you can only tell it up there. As much as you would want to do it on your. You can't. The only way you can do it is if you take the cinematography, the action, the direction, the scope, all of that. 10 million people watch Ryan Coogler talk about the way you should watch and shoot the movie. There is an interest for the art of storytelling, the relationship that you have between you and the screen. That to me, I see it all the time. Like all the time. Like people like shorts, all of that stuff, all the time. I think it's still very, very valuable. And I just hope that we agree with you. I know, but what I'm saying is I hope that there's an ecosystem that nurtures that for the next group of people.

[A]

But then you gotta remember the part that Ryan Coogler didn't just fall out of bed and make sinners. Like that's like a 15 year journey.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

That includes Fruitvale Station and somebody letting him do that and him fighting to make it.

[E]

You don't. My entire point is you gotta support.

[D]

It at the beginning.

[E]

You cannot get to Sinners unless there is Fruitvale Station. Yeah, you do, Ryan. When I went to the LA screening of Sinners, Ryan Coogler talked about why Omar Benson Miller is in the movie. Omar Benson Miller is in the movie because Ryan Coogler went to a screening when he was still a film student of Miracle at St. Anna and he saw Omar Benson Miller in Miracle at St. Anna. And after that, congratulated him and said, one day, we gonna do a movie together. This is. This didn't. And then years and years after he's gotten the opportunity to make his movie, taken that opportunity and made the most out of it, he goes back and he cast that guy that was in that thing that he liked, like, almost a decade before that. Journey is how you get sinners. Like.

[A]

But the problem is Coogler's one of the most talented filmmakers we had in the last 20 years.

[E]

They all can't be.

[A]

No, but I mean, he's like. That's like saying, why can't we have another Shade Gilgeous Alexander?

[C]

Like, it's like, I think people are always gonna watch movies and be inspired and say, I want to make a movie. That's always. That's always been there.

[D]

Always.

[C]

It's just a little bit easier now, I feel like, to try for three years and then go, I'm just gonna start a YouTube channel instead. I'm gonna start a podcast. What if I go the TikTok route? What if I express myself in a different way?

[E]

This whole conversation is blowing my mind. Of course, Shay Gildrich, you don't wake up to be Shay Gillidre's Alexander, right?

[D]

But he worked his ass off.

[E]

He had to pick the basketball up. Somebody had to nurture it. Somebody had to give him the opportunity to play. There had to be a game for him to play. There had to be a team that was like, hey, we'll take you and you will play. I'll tell you something else about him that actually makes my point. He is Canadian. 15, 20 years ago.

[A]

He is. He is.

[E]

He is. I don't know if you guys know this. 15, 20 years ago, the. Him being Canadian would have meant that there was not enough basketball culture where he was for him to, number one, see a game that he loved, participate in a game that he loved, and have the infrastructure that he needed to work to get to 10,000 hours to get great at the game that he loved. So the fact that he, as an international player or Wemby or whomever else all of these guys are, it shows that that sport is still evolving, where people get opportunities.

[A]

I guess where we disagree is I think this infrastructure has been here the whole time. I don't think. I mean, we've had since Sundance, and there's been the film school boom happened in the 90s. This has been 35 years of people kind of knowing.

[C]

I don't even think there's that much disagreement going on here.

[D]

That's what I was gonna say is we're not actually arguing. I do think what's interesting about it, though is that we're talking on the Monday after the lowest box office performance weekend since the 90s. And one of the reasons why that happened is because Friday was Halloween, which is unusual, and the studios were afraid to release a new movie on Halloween. So there were no new releases over the weekend. And they were banking on the Colleen Hoover adaptation having a good carryover from the previous weekend. And it's something that's been happening a lot, obviously, in part because there were strikes a couple years ago, but also just this past year, there are just weekends where no movies come out.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Apple. Before we had the Bill Simmons podcast, we had the BS Report. And it was just an idea. It began with a mic and my Mac and the conviction to take a chance on myself. It was like, whoa, I can just record conversations with my friends and send them out into the world and we'll just get it going. And then when I was on my own in 2015, same thing. Tried to figure out, could I record this in the back of my house? How many producers do I need? Do I just need one? How do I get this out? What happens to it? Do I send it out? Is it a file? Is it an RSS feed? You just kind of figure it out as you go along and you watch it grow. And it's pretty great. I mean, I think like over 10 years ago, October 1, 2015 was the first episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast. And since then we have the ringer. We have all these podcasts, all these people. And it all started with an idea. Once upon a time, no matter what you have an idea for, whether it's creating your own bestselling book, pursuing your passions and turning them into a media network, or making that next box office record breaking sports film. Go for it. You just need to get started. Your great ideas start on Mac. Find out more on apple.com Mac this episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. At Whole Foods Market, you'll find great everyday prices for this Thanksgiving. Check out their 365 brand no Antibiotics Ever. Turkeys start at 149 a pound with prime with Organic Birds at $2.99 a pound, you'll find Thanksgiving essentials like condensed soups. I love those instant mashed potatoes like those too. Organic baking spices. Plus low prices on everything else you need from fresh produce to frozen appetizers. Enjoy. So many Ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market. Terms apply.

[C]

Well, that goes to the. Like the. There are these big directors that these studios are rallying around.

[B]

But then everything is now like, there's.

[C]

Like 10 spike weekends each year where it's like the Nolan weekend, the Spielberg weekend, the Coogler weekend, and then everything in between is dead.

[D]

This has been my. My big point in the last five years. It's just that the eventization is not going anywhere. Movies like that will continue to happen. Cooglers will come up through the system, falling out the. Like the Andrew Davis. The guy who's like, God damn, every Andrew Davis movie is really good. But you never knew Andrew Davis's name. He made the Fugitive, he made Under Siege. He made the package. Every time you watch an Andrew Davis movie, you're like, out for justice. Like, this movie's going to be good with it. But he wasn't famous. Like, that is the thing specifically that is going to me.

[E]

What was the guy that made the Dallas connection? You guys never saw that anyway. But I used to like Andrew. Whatever. I used to like his movies too. But this is what I'll say about this. You're right. That's why my thing is intentionality always is intentionality, not. Not whether or not you're gonna get a director. It's like I always used to tell celebrities that would be mad that they were getting their asses kicked by tmz, they would be like, van, I don't have any allies in the office. I'd be like, why don't you make one? Like, if you want an ally in the office, if you want somebody in the office that cares about your story, why don't you make one? Why don't you be intentional about what it is that you want to exist? And if you want an ecosystem for up and coming movie makers that are going to undergird. I keep using that word, the next generation of films. Why don't you be intentional about it? Now I will say this. I think that other artists do this. I do. I think that other artists reach back and put people on all the time. Be intentional about the fact that there's talent to be found and cultivated and developed over the course and that these stories, these stories that are about the changing landscape of society that. You know what I would want to watch? I want to watch the movie about the kid that's so bored that he starts making Tiktoks. And I want to see these stories. I care about their.

[D]

There's a great movie came out last year, called Dee Dee by this guy, Sean Wong. And he was a kid who was in, like, eighth grade trying to make friends and a little detached growing up in. I want to say it was central California.

[C]

I think it's the bay, in the bay. Sacramento, maybe even.

[D]

And Fremont. FREMONT, yeah. And YouTube is just getting going, and he starts basically, like, trying to make friends by making skate videos, having his own YouTube account that have, like, pranks on it, trying to find his way. And it's a. It's a. It's a nostalgic movie. But, like, I'm sure. I know. Gaha. We've talked about it before. Like, I know that that is a movie that resonates with people because it's the actual experience that you're describing. And that's a. Sean came out of the Sundance system, and he developed his skills. I think he worked at Google for a minute and then developed his skills over time to figure out how to become a better filmmaker. To me, that guy, that filmmaker specifically, is somebody whose studio should be like, let me put my arms around you. Your next Movie's gonna get $25 million. Make it good. We're gonna vet the script heavily. The executives are gonna be hard on you, but we're gonna make this movie good together. And then your next movie, if it does well, is gonna get $75 million, and we're gonna keep growing together like that, to me, is the essence of the system, because it costs so much money to make movies that are at scale. Like, if you want to make independent films, that's a different story. Raising money yourself, being strategic, you know all about that world. But this thing that I like and the thing that I'm talking about every week is getting these kinds of movies in front of as many people as possible. Like, make a movie that can play on 3500 screens. I really value that. Snake Eyes is an example of that.

[C]

But getting it in front of as many people as possible means it should be on Netflix.

[D]

Netflix. Well, that is one battle after another. There can be both. There can really be. There can be streaming services making movies, and there can be studios putting movies in movie theaters.

[E]

I think that there is no doubt about the fact that we are living in an ecosystem where there are movies that are just going to be for streaming. There are films that I am not the best. I went and saw everything, Saw all the movies. It was the only place you could see them. Saw all the movies. The DVDs came out in the 2000s, and they were going crazy. So There were certain movies that I saw and I never experienced them on the big screen, but as soon as them bitches came out and they were playing on the big screen, I was like, guess what? Suicide Kings? Big screen. I'm going to see it. All right? So I get that, and I understand that. That passion for the actual experience of going to. I know that that's different. There are movies for streaming movies for all of this. I see it. There's a Tubi type movie. I watch these movies all the time. I watch these Tubi movies that are set in New Orleans. I just want to see what people are talking about and what they're trying to say. I watch these movies all the time. Right. I hope that the person that you're talking about is allowed to fail a couple of times. I hope that they're allowed to take chances on film that got decent budgets and that those movies came out and people didn't understand them, people didn't fuck with them and they're able to fail. Coogler is batting a thousand. That is difficult. Like, that is tough. I just hope that some of these people that have this artistic sensibility, like Spike, some of Spike's movies. At the beginning, Spike was on a run, but then Spike would take chances and he would make films that weren't for everyone. Right? But I feel like we're more enriched if there is a gigantic gumbo of creators and people that are allowed to create and have their say. That has to be nurtured intentionally. You have to want more people to have the opportunity to get their stories out. And you have to. I mean, I don't know.

[A]

I just don't buy it. I just don't. I think it's like, goblety good. Like, oh, yeah, we gotta have everybody tell stories. Like, telling stories is hard. Putting the time in day after day to make something good, to, like, learn how to be good at something. I don't think. I think some people want to take the shortcuts and they don't understand what kind of process it is.

[E]

I get it.

[A]

I think it's just really hard to make good shit. It's not as easy as I want to make a movie. Oh, here's my movie.

[E]

No, no, no.

[A]

Like, the whole thing is, like, this is a fucking process. It takes years and years and years and years to become even decent at something. And I really wonder sometimes if people realize that. That's the number one question I get asked all the time, how do I do this? How do I do this? And it's like, all right, you want to be a writer. What are your favorite books? Well, what do you mean? What are your favorite books? What book have you read the most? What do you mean, read the most? Like, read a lot of times. Yeah. Have you read a book, like, 20 times and studied every page from it? I really think sometimes that people want to just get to the end without. Without remembering. Like, there's a whole journey to get to the end.

[E]

You understand that that's not what I'm talking about, right?

[A]

No, I know, but I'm telling you, that's where I'm coming from with, like, being bored, the shortcuts, the whole thing. It's like, this is really hard.

[E]

Right?

[A]

And I. I wonder sometimes if people realize that.

[D]

So I was thinking about this a little bit when you were talking about coaching people up in the TMZ office. Cause the other thing is, like, you guys have both worked really hard, but you're also incredibly talented and charismatic. And there's also just, like, some people just got it. It. You know, there's. There is a just got it factor to some of this, right? That, like, sometimes the person who just got it isn't nurtured or taken care of or doesn't have an opportunity. There's no denying that. But sometimes some people just walk in and they do have it, and if they work hard enough at it, then they can make it happen.

[A]

But Van's a good example of this, though. You got all these reps for years. Yeah, right, right. Did those reps make you better?

[E]

Certainly.

[A]

But that was an unconventional path. Right. For years and years, you just have to come up on the fly. And now CNN figure out how to interact with cnn.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Now you're on cnn, you figure out how to interact with people. You had to figure out what worked, that didn't work. You could have a trial and error situation where if something didn't work, it wasn't the biggest deal in the world because the platform, you know, was a little more forgiving. And over a while, you forgot to. You figured out, like, oh, this is my style. This is how to express myself. Oh, I'm getting better at this. I have confidence here. Like, that's the whole thing. Like, Craig and those guys have been doing the fantasy show. How many years have you been doing it?

[C]

5.

[A]

If you went back and listened to the first year of the show, would you be fired up to listen to it? You'd be like, oh, my God, we sucked at this. Why were we so bad at this? This is the whole Thing. It's a fucking process.

[E]

So there's a talent component. I'm not disagreeing with that. I think about when you talk about, like, me at tmz, I wrote my way onto the TMZ tour. Tiffany Drucker. Shout out to her. She was a production coordinator at tmz. They were looking for tour guides. I sent in my resume. But the COVID sheet of my resume, I wrote something funny, right? And when she got it, she's like, I had to interview you, even though we'd stopped because of what was on there, right? Then I get on there, and I get on the tour bus. And, I mean, everybody else would do the tour. Me and Kalika would run the tour. After the tour bus, we would get in the car and run the tour bus around town. Like, in the car, we would drive and run the tour bus around town, and I would stop and do my whole thing. So when Harvey came on to take the tour, he saw it and went, hey, why don't you come into the. Why don't you come into the studio and do it? And then, boom, it kind of starts. I start there in April. By June, I was on TV every day all of the. I'm not saying that I'm not naturally charismatic, unbelievably handsome and tall and beautiful.

[D]

You didn't say any of those things.

[E]

I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is, though, is that there was an opportunity given to me, and there was an opportunity given to me by people who were like, oh, interesting, new, different. And then the X factor was the fact that every time I see an opportunity or a chance, I go, what the fuck do I have to do? That is a different thing. However, in this, where there are millions of dollars at play, there is sometimes some people that need to be able to look and look at somebody and see people and go, huh, there's something there. What can we get out of it? Talent capitalization. I see it. I don't understand how we have.

[A]

But you've seen these movie studios. None of them have the wherewithal to do that. That's like a fantasy world.

[E]

I don't think.

[A]

I don't think they're good enough to figure that out.

[E]

You know, what's funny is I just don't. I'm not about to start glazing.

[C]

That's just really hard. I found PTA. He's 19. Like, PTA is very difficult.

[A]

PTA was making, like, elaborate home movies when he was 15. Like, you're just not gonna become PTA I'm not.

[E]

It's not about being PTA because there's only gonna. It doesn't matter if there's only gonna be one PTA or two PTAs per generation. There are a lot of films out there that are better than the people who actually created their films. There are a lot of of films out there that are the result of a certain dedication to storytelling, a sincerity. There are people that made the story of their life and couldn't make the story of anything else. Right? There are all kinds of situations out there where that exists. Rap phenomenon. Your first album is your best. Why? Because it's all in the.

[D]

Your whole life story.

[E]

It's your whole life story. What I am saying is there is a portion of this that in order to. Whatever it is that we're talking about, whatever it is that we're talking about, that if you want the next great. Anything you have to invest into it. The NBA right now is in Africa and they're investing money into Africa. And what you are seeing is a return on that investment. It's a return on talent that was overlooked. You can almost do this in any sport. If it is the Dominican Republican in baseball, right? You see a bunch of people who have a passion for something. They're using milk cartons as gloves. What if you gave them a real glove? What if you gave them a real bat? What if you took somebody that was 13, allegedly, and then you brought them to the Dodgers training facility and you gave them what they need after a certain point? Would you get an all star out of it? Not everybody will be an all Star. Hence the movie Sugar. Great movie.

[D]

Very good.

[E]

Not everybody would be an all star, but you would get more all stars than you would get if you didn't do it. Like, you would get more all stars.

[A]

I just think creating shit is different than being good at basketball.

[E]

It's the exact same thing.

[A]

I disagree. Because somebody who's creating something, it's the sum of a lot of the experiences they've had in life.

[E]

There's also technical expertise in the world.

[A]

Work ethic piece. It's the stuff they've watched. It's. Did they care about this from the moment they were like 6 years old? Any of the great directors, none of them are at age 20. Oh, I think I'll try this movie thing. These were people that from the moment they were like six were like seeing everything this way. And I just don't think it's like basketball, where it's like that guy's 6, 8 maybe he'll be good at basketball. Some of it has to come from you. When you say we need more stories. Yeah, we do need more stories, but then that's gotta come from the people and they have to care about the stories they're telling and the experiences they have. And by the way, you have to learn from all the content that we have out there. Like, there's a lot that goes into it.

[D]

I think this is one of the great everybody's right conversations I've ever had. I don't really disagree with anything anyone is saying. I do think that movies are gonna continue to be a little bit smaller as a business. It's not gonna get bigger again. And we got like. I've been getting my head around that for the last couple years. And so to me, the thing that I value the most, you could see it in how I try to book interviews on Big picture. The two kinds of injuries I'm trying to get are the filmmakers I really love or who have made a big movie and first time directors. Those are the. That's the two categories I'm looking for. Who is a new voice this year? The most recent ones, Ava Victor, who made Sorry Baby, and Alex Russell, who made Lurker. Two really cool debuts that I thought were really, really interesting. Talk to them, figure out what gets them excited, what's inside of them, what's the thing that motivates them to do this? And then how did they do it? I always ask them, like, how'd you.

[A]

Well, this money to do. The baby lady was like that. She had a really unconventional background.

[D]

Yeah. Like an online comedian who was like making YouTube videos and. But there's more and more people that are coming out of that background that are doing that are trying to get into this work because they love movies. Like, that's what you find out invariably is ultimately they do love movies. But then there's like, you know, there's still 180 people who are master filmmakers who I'm always interested and curious to talk to. And I hope that they continue to get as much money as possible. But it's that that thing in the middle that I'm talking about is the thing that is not really there anymore. And, you know, it doesn't even really matter what your background is. Like, you used to be like a white. You white guy, you got a leg up, you're gonna be able to get a $75 million movie made because it's got Steven Seagal in it. That whole part of the world just kind of feels Gone, you know, like caught stealing was treated like a miracle that had happened because Aronofsky was like, yeah, I'll make it like a shit eating New York crime movie. And they'll put it on a million screens because we got Austin Butler. That was like the weirdest thing that happened at movies this year and it didn't really do that well. So I think that there is like a much more global thing going on. Maybe it's boredom and a lack of motivation. Maybe it's a lack of opportunity.

[A]

I don't think it's a lack of motivation. I just think there's way more distractions than there used to be. There's too many things pulling people in different directions.

[D]

How many times do you think Ben has gone to the movie theater this year?

[A]

Probably five.

[D]

Do you know what, do you know.

[A]

What they would be the, the biggest ones to go to? And a couple horror movies. I think his generation, horror movies seem to be the things that have a lot of life right now with like the under 25s. Like they, you go to the. You got to see this in the theater. It's scarier that way. Whereas comedies feel like they're just dead. Nobody's like, you got to see this comedy in theater. It's so fun to be around all these people laughing. No, that hasn't really happened anymore. Like that even go and remember when like the Hangover came out or there's something about Mary. You're like, I gotta see this in the theater. Everybody loves this. And now it's like, I'll just stream it with my girlfriend or whatever.

[E]

I think even some of the streaming, some of the streaming stuff, they haven't really figured out how to. I mean, we can't really agree on what makes us laugh anymore. What you're supposed to be laughing at, I think comes out.

[A]

Maybe that might come back though.

[D]

I haven't watched I Love LA yet. But to me, Rachel Sennett is like a prime example of this where it's like 30 years ago she would have been a movie star. They would have been building movies around her for a decade, trying to make it happen. They would have forced her down our throat. And now after a couple of movies, she's got a TV show on hbo.

[E]

So I think there are a lot of ways to say what you want to say. And sometimes you don't even have to put it in a story, you just say it on Twitter and all of that stuff. I think there are a group of people, a group of creators that will feel like they will feel constrained by the limits of two minutes to tell their story. They will feel constrained by the limit of what the reels can do to tell their story. And there is until this changes, and maybe it will. One thing I'll give the movie industry credit for is to main is that they've maintained the prestige of what it means to be an important filmmaker. And in all of these different disciplines.

[C]

It'S still the highest achievement, like, of.

[E]

All of these different disciplines. Prestige is very important. Certainly it is meaningful. You are taken seriously, you are lauded, you are looked at in a specific way when you are a good, important filmmaker. That's changing in a lot of other disciplines. I think in music, that's changing a little bit. But in film right now, if you can make a movie that literally gets people out of themselves, we still revelation. When we talk about Denny, when we talk about pta, when we talk about all of these, we're still waiting for the next one that has not gone away. I think people will chase the importance and the prestige and what it means to tell stories. But I also think this, I think legitimately, there is some kid in south Louisiana right now that looks around and his shit is fucked up. And he's like, I want everybody to know. I want everybody to see this. And a documentary ain't good enough. I saw Nickel Boys. I wanna fuck with the camera. I wanna do some different shit. I think it was people that when they saw Clarksdale and Sinners, they were like, you know what? I come from a place just like that. I wanna do some crazy shit and I want people to understand this. You cannot understand. No one can make a TikTok and make you understand Clarksdale, Mississippi, or the blues or that culture as much as it is. When you see the sweat coming off the people, I think that's still meaningful. I just hope that we are really, really intentional. I'll say again about giving people those opportunities, because your master filmmakers, they've always existed and I respect them. Like, I respect them sometimes I watch movies and then I'll actually stop the movie and then go look at the script. Because I'll be like, how the fuck is this written? I can't see how you would write that if you wanted to do it. And sometimes when you look at it, it's so fucking different than what is. I know you read a lot of scripts. It's so fucking different than how you would see. And if it were something that you were writing, they would be like, what the fuck are you doing?

[D]

Well, the even crazier thing. It's kind of appropriate that we're doing this with the De Palma conversation, but I was at the Academy Museum with my daughter on Sunday, and there's Bong.

[E]

Joon Ho exhibit at the Academy Museum with his daughter. She's gonna grow up with a specific appreciation for film and going to the show.

[A]

She's gonna turn 11 and turn on him.

[D]

She might. I'm giving her opportunity, to your point, to learn. But she didn't really care about the Bong Joon Ho exit for obvious reasons. She was very into the Greenwood and Spencer production design of Barbie. But I was able to explain it to her very clearly because in that exhibit, which is really cool, Bong storyboards every movie, and he storyboards every single image he wants to see. And they have the storyboards up in the museum so I can hold her up and show her the images and say, this is a movie that I've seen. The man who made this movie saw the entire movie in his head before he made it. And while he was writing the script, he was drawing the movie so that he could create the images. This is something Martin Scorsese does. He storyboards all of these shots in that documentary. He designs all this stuff. So it's both things. It's like there are people who can see these things and who have these skills, but also those people have been protected and supported over time. And that's why my daughter will be a master filmmaker. Case closed.

[E]

This is legitimately the last thing I say, because I know that this probably be broken out as a separate podcast.

[D]

This is the first episode of Baggage and Bias.

[E]

Baggage and Bias. That's a good first. I will say this.

[A]

Baggage and Bias with Van Lathan.

[E]

Baggage and Bias. I will say this. You guys realize that the bad NBA players are as important as the good ones, so you must have bad movies. Bad art is as essential as good art. Like Michael Jordan doesn't exist if there's no one to compare him to the average.

[A]

Okay, but you're leaving out the part that it's worse to fail in the 2020s than it's ever been. And this is the thing that has not ruined writing, but really changed it and affected it and made it so much different than it was 15 years ago. And why the essay writing and features and everything seems so much more. There's a sameness and a blandness to it that just wasn't there when we were doing Grayling because people didn't care if they took a big swing. Now everyone is always worried about Getting filleted on the Internet about whatever.

[C]

There's no Nick Cages right now because Nic Cage's like, authentic weird self would get destroyed in a movie.

[D]

But you almost can't speak about this because you feed off the heat. You're like, fucking Razor Ramon. You're like, yeah, give it to me.

[A]

But these are the TMZ reps, right? You developed your thick skin.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

It callous me over. There's still. Sometimes they get to me, but it calls me over. But what I am saying, Tyler Schuck jokes still hits. Fuck that shit. What I'm saying is it is. Is essential. Failure is essential. And when I.

[A]

But you say that this is. This is where you do the van thing. Most people don't want to fail. They don't want to take a chance and fail once. But you have to fail to be good at something. You have to take chances sometimes.

[D]

I've been potting for almost 10 years. I'm still waiting for my first good pod.

[A]

The ability to embrace a failure and be like, that didn't work. I learned from it. Now I'll do this next thing I think is really scary to a lot of people because. And part of it is from how people grow up now, how people. What they're told, what they read, how mean people can be online. There's a whole bunch of factors that go into it.

[E]

Part of this, what I'm talking about, is maybe us changing our relationship to that. I saw a movie.

[A]

That's another one. How's that gonna happen?

[E]

But I saw a movie earlier this year by somebody who I know is a talented filmmaker. I know for sure they're a talented filmmaker. I could see it in a movie. The movie itself is just not very good. It's just not that good. But you can look into the movie and see pieces. You can see it.

[A]

I could see that with Jake Laravia, though. But like, he's so close to being good.

[D]

He went for like 30 seconds.

[A]

He's been pretty good lately. Yeah, he's been pretty good. He went off well. Now he's been good.

[E]

Stop being racist towards white people.

[A]

If he was, the whites are saving the Lakers.

[E]

If he was Darius Washington Laravia, you would be like, the Lakers need the.

[D]

Whites, The Reaves LaRavia. Two man game was Friday night, going crazy wild.

[E]

Going crazy.

[A]

The Sam Hackers are on there, the.

[E]

Mags are picking rolls. But what I'm saying is that, like, there has to be. I'm just talking about. I'm talking about believing in people.

[A]

Everyone believes in people.

[D]

I know, I know. You keep like, like, you keep like presenting like you have like this magic elixir from the most noble point of view, which it is noble.

[E]

I'm not saying it's noble, I'm just saying.

[A]

No, no, actually we have 35 years of film schools and scholarships and Sundance.

[E]

I'm not there. Could be doing more. I'm not saying they definitely can't. Well, I'm not saying it to sound noble. I'm not even saying it to be noble. I'm saying it's legitimately the only way the thing keeps going.

[D]

I agree with you. I agree with that.

[E]

The only way.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

That's why I'm a little bit.

[D]

Gotta give me more people more shots all the time.

[E]

It's the only way you find it.

[D]

Totally. Who's.

[A]

I'm just curious, like, who's giving them more shots? We've already established none of these movie studios give a shit about anybody that.

[D]

I mean, that is a real problem.

[A]

That never changes. That is a real problem in TV studios for 100 years.

[E]

That's not true.

[A]

What's not true?

[E]

What movie did PTA make?

[D]

After Heartache, he made Boogie Nights.

[E]

Now what? Now? How difficult of a sale to do.

[A]

They did Boogie Nights cause they thought it was gonna make money. That's why they greenlight every movie.

[E]

Definitely thought it was gonna make money. But also it was just a cool fucking idea.

[A]

Cause the guy was a fucking prodigy.

[E]

I understand, but there's so many films though.

[C]

Very specific time. Indie films are taking off. Mike DeLuca, like, really wanted to work. The Weinstein era was like all of the independent films.

[A]

Everyone was looking for young filmmakers.

[E]

It was like a moment in time as we give.

[D]

That can happen again.

[A]

It should happen again.

[D]

It can happen again.

[E]

No, it has to.

[C]

Yeah, it has.

[E]

Because we just talked about it. One battle after another. Legitimately. If somebody doesn't go, oh my God, look interesting, this guy. Great, amazing dude, then you don't. The movie never happens. And by the way, not only does the movie never happen, but you then get. You get.

[A]

You can't mention PT though. That's like saying Giannis is great. We gotta find more people from Greece. Like, PT is like a generational prodigy.

[E]

What do you mean? He's like saying Yanis is great.

[A]

He's literally named the freak. But do you understand the freak?

[E]

But do you understand what I'm saying though?

[A]

Guitar was making 8 millimeter 90 minute movies when he was 15.

[E]

So think about this though. What is Giannis? Giannis is a physical freak. But he's also the eventuality of.

[A]

With an amazing work ethic.

[E]

Just. Just let me get it out.

[A]

I see what Van is saying.

[D]

He's also the eventuality investing in Europe, investing in spreading the game around the country.

[C]

Yes.

[E]

So Giannis did not just happen because of an individualistic set of circumstances. That's part of the reason why he is who he is. But in 1986, there would have been a Giannis who would have never made the NBA because we weren't there yet.

[D]

This is another way of thinking about this. You've both made a good point, which is that also, movies have just become internationally democratized in a way, and there are many of the biggest movies of the year not made in America anymore. We thought of America as the. Absolutely.

[A]

That's the really sad part of this film.

[D]

But Asia makes so many of the most popular films around the world. European cinema is still pretty strong. Not as strong as it used to be, but still pretty strong. You know, there's obviously African cinema, South American cinema. Like, these are things we don't watch. Bollywood is still. Is massive. Right now. We're watching anime. Coming out of Japan is enormous, even in this country. So it's not. It is kind of like what happened in The NBA, like, 20 years ago, where it was like, oh, wow, the All Star game is actually 40% European. And it's going to increasingly be moving.

[A]

In that direction this year. It's going to be all Europeans, it looks like. I'll tell you this. So I was. I've been working on. I think I'm going to do a podcast, and I thought I was going to already do it, but as you know, I'm. I feel like I'm. Sports movies. That's been my favorite thing to write about. What I was going to do. The 20 best. 20 best sports movies of this century.

[E]

Okay.

[A]

So I've been kind of watching them on the side, and we've done some of them.

[D]

Happy Gilmore 2, number one.

[A]

No. So I really love the Way Back with Affleck.

[D]

Me too.

[A]

I think that's a great movie, and I think that's probably my favorite sports movie this decade. But anyway, I was watching in the last week, and then the movie ends, and it's like, directed by Gavin o', Connor, written by Brad Inglesby, and it's.

[D]

Like, well, that's why that movie's good. Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And Affleck, by the way, is probably the best he's ever been in a movie in that movie. But it's also the pedigree of the writing that he had and the person who directed it who is a fucking artist.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

And you need all these different pieces to have a good movie. And it, you know, did you see. I think that's.

[D]

I mean, there's no disrespect to Gavin o', Connor, whose movies I love, but the next movie that Gavin o' Connor made also starred Ben Affleck, and it was the Accountant two. And, yeah, the Accountant isn't very good. Like, the Accountant two isn't very good. And that movie was made because I refused to watch. It needed to get made because it would further people's careers and be good for the studios. And it's like, I legitimately think Gavin o' Connor is a gifted artist, but that is actually a testimony to how fucked up everything is right now.

[E]

What's the Robot lady movie that they Companion. Did you see that?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Did you like it?

[A]

I really liked the performance by the lead, Sophie Thatcher.

[E]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

She's terrific.

[A]

I think she's really good.

[E]

I think she's really great.

[A]

I didn't really like the movie, and I would never want to watch it again.

[D]

Are you out on Jack Quaid?

[E]

Not only did I like it, I loved it.

[D]

I liked it a lot.

[E]

I loved the movie. I thought it was fantastic. Robot lady, everybody robots. We don't know who the robots are. Very cool. All set in one place, all of that. Remember, I watch movies, remember, Worth Winning with Mark Harmon. Have you ever seen that? Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Remember that? Mark Harmon trying to.

[D]

You always pull this move. You just say in a movie from some 30 years ago. Remember that movie? That was good, and often it was.

[E]

But it's a totally unimportant movie. That's my thing.

[A]

Right, right.

[E]

My thing is it's, like, Worth Winning with Mark Harmonies, where Mark Harmon plays a handsome weatherman who is trying to figure out, I think, what lady to marry or something. Like, it's a totally unimportant movie. I get that the Way Back is, like, one of the best sports movies, and they had all of these guys behind it, but sometimes good movies are, like, totally unimportant. They're for the moment. They're films to be consumed and ideas that people had. So there does not have to be a murderer's role of creators behind every film.

[A]

Do you think there should be a movie about Gooner culture?

[E]

Yeah, I'm already writing. I write it every day.

[D]

I was wondering if the three of us should write a film for Carly Gugino.

[A]

And Gunner culture.

[C]

This podcast itself is a bit of a goon.

[A]

Yeah, it really is. Anyway, we should have invited people to a theater. All gotten together.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

I guess we should probably wrap it up.

[E]

Probably should wrap it up.

[A]

Getting a little lightheaded.

[E]

Nah, me too. I need something to eat. But. But the last thing I'll say is, y' all talking all of this. Y' all do this every day.

[D]

Do what every day?

[E]

Every day I see people that used to be a fucking PA or intern or the producer or all of that shit. Every day I see talent developed at the ringer. Every day I see capitalization of talent.

[C]

Here comes the glaze.

[E]

It's not glaze.

[A]

That's the other bad podcast.

[E]

But can I be real?

[A]

It's the secret of baggage, of bias.

[E]

Here comes the Can I be real with you, though? The only reason why.

[A]

The only reason this would be a huge hit.

[E]

Here comes the glaze. The only reason why I'm saying that, though, is. Cause I come from a place where that kind of didn't happen as much. I'm blown away with the young people that we have at the ringer and how. And how they do it. And so. I can't believe you. I can believe. I can't believe you. I can't believe that you are against young filmmakers and young filmmakers.

[D]

Just stop.

[E]

I'm fucking with it. I'm fucking with you.

[D]

So just takeaways. Bill says no more opportunities for young people, especially filmmakers of color. Absolutely.

[A]

My takeaway. Yeah, here's my big takeaway.

[E]

Go to TikTok.

[A]

Use your imagination.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Read.

[A]

Watch stuff. Sit at a stoplight. Just look around at the lights.

[D]

Yeah. Buy physical media if you can afford it.

[A]

Buy physical media. Learn from the best people.

[D]

Watch the Mac.

[E]

Subjective, but yeah, watch Jake Laravia.

[D]

Don't doom.

[B]

Scroll.

[D]

See how he worked hard to get where he is today, even as a white American. Is he American? Jake Laravia?

[E]

I think he is.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

And by the way, now we have to. Now I have to respond to that guy.

[C]

You do?

[E]

I've read every email.

[D]

Tell him I've read them, too, but I won't be responding.

[E]

Yeah, I know sometimes you can't. But I've read every. I've read every email secretly.

[A]

Me.

[C]

It's my script.

[E]

Is it you?

[A]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Shield, thanks to Van, thanks to Sean, thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Thursday at some point with the third podcast of the week, and new rewatch was coming on Monday, so I will see you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling Problem Call 100 Gambler, visit rg-help.com, call 888-79777 or visit ccpg.orgchattinconenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.