Curry vs. Klay, the Embiid Situation, Atlanta’s New Look and Cleveland’s Ascent With Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry

Summary

Title: The Bill Simmons Podcast
Episode: Curry vs. Klay, the Embiid Situation, Atlanta’s New Look and Cleveland’s Ascent
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry
Date: [Knowledge Cutoff: October 2023]

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Introduction

In this riveting episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, Bill Simmons sits down with basketball analysts Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry to dissect some of the NBA's most pressing topics. From the evolving dynamics of the Golden State Warriors to Joel Embiid’s health concerns, the Atlanta Hawks' surprising performance, and the Cleveland Cavaliers' resurgence, the trio offers deep insights and spirited debates that cater to both hardcore fans and casual enthusiasts.

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1. Curry vs. Klay Thompson Dynamics

Discussion Highlights:

• The return of Klay Thompson to the Warriors has reignited discussions about his impact alongside Steph Curry.
• Bill expresses nostalgia and apprehension about the future without Curry and stars like Nikola Jokic.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [04:36]: "Curry's doing Steph Curry stuff... I just think about the future when we don't have Jokic and Curry. It just makes me sad because those are my two favorite day-to-day League Pass guys."
• Kirk Goldsberry [06:03]: "I was so sick of this game by like 4:00 this afternoon... It felt like a round two or round three playoff game to me."

Insights:

• Klay's return brings a renewed sense of hope for the Warriors, but there are lingering questions about team chemistry and long-term viability.
• The balance between Curry’s individual brilliance and the team's collective performance remains a focal point.

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2. Joel Embiid's Health and Performance

Discussion Highlights:

• Joel Embiid’s fluctuating performance and apparent health issues are a major concern.
• The Sixers' reliance on Embiid and the impact of his injuries on the team's prospects.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [58:23]: "Joel Embiid came back and played the New York Knicks and looked like he was going to keel over... every time the game stopped, he was keeled over."
• Dave Jacoby [60:00]: "Joel Embiid had one of the worst games I've ever seen today. 2 of 11 in 26 minutes, 3 rebounds."

Insights:

• Embiid’s inconsistency is jeopardizing the Sixers' season, with debates on whether he can regain his dominant form.
• Simmons criticizes the Sixers for extending Embiid despite his inability to maintain peak performance, drawing parallels to other players whose careers have been derailed by injuries.

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3. Atlanta Hawks' New Look and Defensive Strength

Discussion Highlights:

• The Hawks' impressive performance without Trae Young, showcasing players like Dyson Daniels and Jalen Johnson.
• Emphasis on the team's defensive prowess and newfound chemistry.

Notable Quotes:

• Kirk Goldsberry [30:18]: "Dyson Daniels has been playing really well all year for the Hawks."
• Dave Jacoby [32:24]: "Dyson Daniels is a legitimate defensive player of the year candidate."

Insights:

• The Hawks have reinvented themselves with strong defensive strategies and versatile players stepping up in major roles.
• Daniels and Johnson’s emergence has been pivotal, indicating a promising future for the franchise.

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4. Cleveland Cavaliers' Ascent

Discussion Highlights:

• The Cavaliers' improved chemistry and performance signals a significant turnaround.
• Key players contributing to the team’s newfound success, such as Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels.

Notable Quotes:

• Dave Jacoby [34:22]: "Cavaliers can make a real run... They have good chemistry."
• Bill Simmons [89:17]: "Cleveland could get some distance on them [Celtics]."

Insights:

• The Cavaliers' strategic adjustments and player development have positioned them as formidable contenders.
• Their balanced offense and strong teamwork are key factors driving their ascent.

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5. NBA Cup: Format and Location Debates

Discussion Highlights:

• The trio debates the efficacy and future of the NBA Cup, questioning its current format and location in Vegas.
• Suggestions for alternative venues to enhance fan engagement and logistical feasibility.

Notable Quotes:

• Dave Jacoby [21:49]: "I like the idea of an in-season tournament..."
• Kirk Goldsberry [25:00]: "I don't like the NBA Cup being in Vegas... better in New York."

Insights:

• There is a consensus that while the NBA Cup can add excitement, its execution needs refinement.
• Moving the event to a more central location could improve attendance and overall experience.

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6. Rising Concerns About Injuries in the NBA

Discussion Highlights:

• An analysis of the increasing number of injuries, attributing it to the faster pace and more aggressive playstyle of modern basketball.
• Comparisons to past NBA eras to highlight changes in the game’s physicality.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [70:29]: "Basketball is way faster, more aggressive to play... leading to more injuries."
• Dave Jacoby [71:48]: "Pace and space are a big part of it, leading to more strain on players."

Insights:

• The current NBA’s demands on players’ bodies have surpassed those of previous decades, resulting in higher injury rates.
• The conversation underscores the need for better player management and possibly rule adjustments to mitigate these risks.

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7. Final Predictions and Closing Thoughts

Discussion Highlights:

• The hosts share their forecasts for the remainder of the NBA season, focusing on potential playoff contenders and pivotal matchups.
• Reflections on team strategies, player performances, and the overall direction of the league.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [85:31]: "I think it's real as me starting."
• Dave Jacoby [90:35]: "The West is so stacked... probable contenders among top teams."

Insights:

• The panel is optimistic about teams like the Cavaliers and Hawks while expressing skepticism about the Sixers’ ability to navigate Embiid’s health challenges.
• They emphasize the importance of team chemistry and strategic depth in determining playoff success.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive analysis of several NBA narratives, blending statistical insights with passionate commentary. Bill Simmons, alongside Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry, provides a nuanced exploration of team dynamics, player performances, and league-wide trends, making it a must-listen for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of the current basketball landscape.

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Notable Timestamped Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [04:36]: "Curry's doing Steph Curry stuff... I just think about the future when we don't have Jokic and Curry. It just makes me sad because those are my two favorite day-to-day League Pass guys."

• Kirk Goldsberry [30:18]: "Dyson Daniels has been playing really well all year for the Hawks."

• Dave Jacoby [60:00]: "Joel Embiid had one of the worst games I've ever seen today. 2 of 11 in 26 minutes, 3 rebounds."

• Bill Simmons [70:29]: "Basketball is way faster, more aggressive to play... leading to more injuries."

• Dave Jacoby [90:35]: "The West is so stacked... probable contenders among top teams."

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This structured summary encapsulates the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting key discussions and providing actionable insights for listeners.

Transcript

[Todd McShay]

What's happening? It's Todd McShay and I'm back with a new home and a new show at the Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts during the week. We'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that will include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the College Football Playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights with my immediate reaction to the full day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe and get ready for the McShay show on the Ringer, Spotify and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by Ray Ban Meta Smart Glasses Built with Meta AI Ray Ban Meta Smart glasses react to what you see so you can learn more about the world around you. You can also take hands free photos, videos, send messages, make video calls, even play music and podcasts straight from your glasses with Ray Ban Meta. This episode is brought to you by the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks. From the bold new exterior to the performance and tech features like intelligent all wheel drive and a Bose Personal plus sound system. Cars where I Live I live in the Los Angeles area and cars are one of the most important things you can have because you're in them a lot. Because you got to drive around all over the place. You know what's fun? To have a nice car for an everyday commute, to have music and the ability to do hands free stuff. And just to feel safe, you can do it. Drive the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks today. Head over to Nissan USA to learn more. Bose Personal plus Sound System is an available feature. Bose is a registered trademark in the Bose Corporation. Intelligent all wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions. Always monitor traffic and weather conditions. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did meet the parents. It was me and Kyle Brandt. I had a great time. You can watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can follow the rewatchables on Twitter. It's TheReewatchables. We had a dramatic movement in the rewatchable standings. De Niro. That was the 13th De Niro movie we've done. So he moved into a second place tie with Al Pacino. We've done 13 of each. Cruz is still leading the way at 15. I feel like we're going to get to 20 Cruise movies before everything is said and done, so check that out. You can check out The Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well, where we put clips and videos from this podcast where we go live on Sunday nights with cousin Sal. They're in the NFL season and coming up on this podcast, we taped it late. We wanted to wait for all these NBA cup games to end. We wanted to see Klay Thompson go back to Golden State. We want to see Celtics Hawks. There was a whole bunch of good games, a lot of themes to talk about. So I asked Kurt Goldsberry and Dave Jacoby to stay up late with me and we're going to talk about a whole bunch of basketball stuff. It's all next for star friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we are taping this. It is 9:45 Pacific Time. I had the instinct to wait to watch all these NBA cup games tonight because I felt like something good was going to happen. I talked Dave Jacoby into staying up super late on the east coast and then Kurt Goldsberry staying up late as well in the good state of Texas. It's a little easier for me. But Clay came back to Golden State. We'll start there. There's a bunch of games to cover. The game was awesome and Jacoby, my big takeaway from that game. And we'll get into the staff, the Clay, all that stuff. But that felt like a round two or round three playoff game to me. And I didn't. I wasn't positive that the warriors maybe were ready to swim in that pool yet despite all the evidence. They've had some good games, they have good record. But that tonight felt like round two or round three to me. What do you think?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I was so sick of this game by like 4:00 this afternoon. It was just the coverage just over. It's so much, so much Clay returning and like, knowing what I know about Clay, I didn't think that he cared that much, but it lived up to all the hype, like even the announcement. I cried very easily. So I got a little, like, emotional. I didn't cry, but I got a little emotional. I was about to. I was like, God, I can't believe he's not crying. And then the start of the game, they give him the ball. The first play, he gets fouled, he goes to the line. But it was up and down for Clay. Like I, I felt so like connected to him and I was rooting for him so hard. He had an air ball at the side of the backboard in the third quarter and then another air ball after that. And I was like, oh no, this is falling apart. But then he had a nice little flourish in the fourth quarter. The whole day I was, I was, I was skeptical about this entire experience watching this basketball tonight. And I could not have enjoyed it more.

[Bill Simmons]

Kirk, he didn't even mention Steph Curry, who was back with a capital B doing Steph Curry stuff. I was thinking as he was, as he was doing it, I'm going to really miss it when it's gone, like a 10 out of 10. I think about the future when we don't have Jokic and Curry. And it just makes me sad because those are my two favorite day to day league pass guys. I'm just trying to appreciate in the moment. But he did it again. It was almost like it was Clay's night and there was a little like he had to big boy the night a little bit, it felt like. Didn't you?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, definitely. And I think it felt like the warriors were going to lose that game. I think they were down 7 or something, I want to say. And then Stefan just. Yeah, he was like, I'm. I'm the prime splash brother right now and I'm going to take over. And I feel like we're seeing the night night more often than ever, starting with the Olympics. But also, I think that's two night nights we've seen this week alone. But this one was especially sort of potent with, with Clay, who had a pretty good shooting night. A couple of bad ones, like Jacoby said.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Dave Jacoby]

But still ended up. It was nice to see Clay make six threes. But you were right. Stefan made the most impressive ones when the game was on the line. It was just awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the cool thing, you know, these are guys that we weren't sure if we may have seen the best of all of them. Right. Especially Clay Draymond last year was like, is this guy even going to be able to be a functional NBA star for seven months a year? And then Curry, even before the Olympics, it's like, all right, are guys passing him now? Is SGA ahead of him? We're doing this Ringer 100 exercise with the voting next week. And you know, that was always a tough one to put Curry in because you got to bring the resume and the experience and all the stuff he's done over the years. But he still has to back it up every once in a while. And I felt like, like he did it today. But the clay piece of ich copes. So as a Celtic fan, we had guys come back, but they were like washed up versions of themselves. Like Robert Parrish came back. I forget it was whether he was on Charlotte or Chicago. It was like over. He was hanging on for a few more paychecks. It's like, oh, the chief, man. It's so glad he's doing well. We never had. I don't remember a core guy coming back like this and the emotions that you would feel. The closest thing I could come to is when Bird was coaching the Pacers and he would come back as the Pacers coaches, like, ah, this sucks. You know, got Larry Bird on the other side. But, you know, you're a natural skeptic. You're an emotional skeptic from time to time. You're a zagger.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

You tried to zag against Wemby early this season. I loved it. I thought it was great. But yet you're an emotional guy too. So this is gamut of emotions for you here.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And I was. There was just so much coverage of it. And he literally said, he's like, I'm so locked in, I don't talk to those guys anymore. And I was like, huh? But he's weird. He's been well chronicled as sort of like a little bit of an aloof, sort of like Zen master goofball. And that just makes him more likable. I mean, I'm sure you remember the Grantland days and the clay theism and all of that. And like, I just felt like he's not the type to get wrapped up in this the way other players would. But when you, you could tell that he was wrapped up in it and as was I. As was I. And the game lived up to it. Like, I was very skeptical of this whole, I'm sure we'll talk about the Emirates NBA cup and then the whole thing.

[Bill Simmons]

But I was just, I'm going to Emirates. An airline. What is it?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's an airline. It's an airline. They'll take you straight to Abu Dhabi.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, great. Okay, good. Good to know.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, yeah. And I was skeptical of the whole thing. The entire thing. But I walk away from tonight being like, I Don't even have anything to complain about. I really, really don't.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a great six hours. It reminded me of. Remember, we would always tease Jalen about somebody that we knew he wasn't cool with and he's like, no, no, we're cool, we're cool. No, no, no, we're fine. I wonder if, like, that's Clay talking about the Warriors. I have no idea how much he talks to those guys. If you read between the lines with all the warriors stuff, everyone seemed to think it was time for him to move on, even the warriors side. It's like, hey, man, the guy was unhappy last year, which, you know, Kirk, like, you spent some time with the Spurs. Kawhi, the situation was a little similar, right? I mean, it was way more acrimonious. But it hit a point where it's like, all right, this isn't working anymore. It's time for this dude to move on. And it seems like everybody's happy, but at the same time, when they're going against each other in a playoff game and Curry's doing the night night and, you know, grabbing the Golden State chairs, it's like, ah, there's a little bit of a fuck you in this.

[Dave Jacoby]

Fuck you. But they all have captain's hats on while they're saying fuck you to them, I guess. But, dude, it was. The CBA is a very cruel device. It's not a very nostalgic device. And I think, you know, this version of it, Bill, is really just so harsh on teams and it's so punitive for teams that overspend on players that. That aren't good enough for numbers. And that's what Clay was getting to. And, dude, I think forget tonight just for a second. They're 9 and 2. They won in Boston, they got beat in Cleveland, they won at Oklahoma City, and then they just beat a Dallas team. They're on a hell of a run here. They look deep. And I'm here to say that Mike Dunleavy in that group, as hard as this choice was, it looks like they made the right team building choice to get the last maybe chance with Stephen Curry to get an MVP or to compete for a championship. So as hard as it was, I think they made the right call.

[Bill Simmons]

Kurt's lights literally just turned off as he was back at that point. No, and you saw tonight, Buddy Hield was on the bench for crunch time, right? That would have been Clay because they needed the defense from that two guard spot. So Melton was out there and. And that was the Difference. I really respect what they did because they're over under. I think before the year, I think it was 43 and a half and like their playing odds were even odds. I don't think any. It just felt like a team in transition that was kind of trying to chug along until January, February. To make a trade for a disgruntled superstar was the vibe. But watching them these first three weeks, I don't know. Jacobs, do they feel like, would you go fringe contender, real contender?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Where?

[Bill Simmons]

Where would you go?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Fringe feels like.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Good story, good start team. I don't think this is scalable.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, the rabbit.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. Yeah. This is not. This is not like a 55 win, two seed in the West. I just. I just do not see it. I don't see it. I think this is a fast out of the gate team that will come back down to earth very, very soon.

[Bill Simmons]

See, I see it because of the defense. I think that, you know, when we get to April, May, defense is what starts to separate people. And the defense that they play, to me is top five from what I'm watching. Especially when you think Minnesota slipped defensively, the Knicks have slipped defensively, you start going around the league and asking yourself who actually can play defense? I don't know. How many defenses do you love, Kirk?

[Dave Jacoby]

No, not many. And that when they've won the championship, that's been their formula. They're going to be remembered for all the threes. But the defense that Draymond has been running for years is great. And in this game, down the stretch, Bill was. Was a great example. We had Wiggins, like really guarding Doncic about as well as anybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Welcome back. Andrew Wiggins, welcome back to the league.

[Dave Jacoby]

He looks different. And then you have Draymond himself really getting into Gafford and some of the key moments and turning that seven point lead into a tie game. And so the D. Everybody's going to think of this game, it's like a microcosm. Everybody's going to think of this game for Steph in those late threes, but it was also some major stops by some A plus defenders. I will zag. I think this is for real. I think they could be 14 and 2 in their next. If we wake up in a week or two, they're 14 and two. If you look at their next five games, that really seems like a contender. Assuming Steph and Draymond are able to stay healthy, which at their age is a big question. Obviously.

[Bill Simmons]

Jacoby, still time. Still time to get on the bandwagon.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I'm off.

[Bill Simmons]

They're playing the banged up Grizzlies at Clippers, home, Hawks, at Pelicans, and at your guy Wemby. That's the next five.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

This is the same thing that's happening with the Bucks is we're going to think very, very highly of the warriors in two weeks. And we're going to think that the Bucks have righted the ship in two weeks. But it's just schedule based. It's not basketball based. Who's it outside of Steph?

[Bill Simmons]

Such a party bucker. Jesus. What's happened to you? What's happened to you? Is it the three kids? Is that why you've become a negative guy?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

You were so positive and happy. Now you're just ground down by fatherhood. Now you're just the negative guy.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's Steph Curry. It's Steph Curry and he's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But here's. It's Steph Curry, but it's also Wiggins looking like Wiggins from two, three years ago. And it's Draymond. No drama yet from him. Looking about as athletic as he's looked in a couple years. And that was the surprise to me, because if you had told me they were going to trade him this summer of 2024, I'd have been like, you're right. It's time. Too much drama. Too many things have happened. Maybe fresh start, try to get some assets. But now that would be crazy. When you watch this guy play now, he's still one of the best five or six defensive players. With that said, he'll probably do something dumb in the next 48 hours. That'll be it. I mean, he almost did it the other day. He did the flailing thing. Jacobs, I have a really important question to ask you about the night. Night.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

You're.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I don't ask a question. I'll give you the answer.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I think it needs to be reserved. Like a Mike Breen bang. I think it's being overused.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a double. Like a Mike Breen double bang or a Mike Breen bang?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No, just a bang. You know what I mean? Ah. Probably a double bang. A 1.5 bang. It just. It's being overused and it's losing. It's diluting its effectiveness.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's being overused. Cause he's winning these major games. He beat Oklahoma City on their home court the other night. He beats Clay tonight. He wins the freaking gold medal. Like, these are not. He's not out there overusing it.

[Bill Simmons]

So can I Be the tiebreaking vote. I love it. I think it's great. It's become, like, almost like a wrestling finishing move now. Now I want it now. When he went up with 25 seconds, I was like, do it. Do the night night. Do it. It's great.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's also good because it brings out, like, dad vibes. It's like, go to bed, little child.

[Bill Simmons]

Night, night.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's just very condescending.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and also it brings back memories to the France game, which was like, a legitimately great American sports moment. And so every time he does it, I think of that. But I just feel like LeBron must be furious that he didn't think of this. Like, he's probably fired his. His, like, Quirk management, whoever the guy is on his team. Quirk edition management. It's like, how did you not give me the night night? I would have been doing that in, like, 2013.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You gave me a book. You gave me the Godfather. That was supposed to be my thing.

[Bill Simmons]

You guys were supposed to come up with ideas like this for me. Why don't I have the night night?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yes. I do this weird stomp thing where I pound my chest. It sucks.

[Bill Simmons]

Kirk, where do you see Dallas right now in the whole contender hierarchy for you? Because they're a little off, but I think it's mostly because Luca doesn't look like Luca.

[Dave Jacoby]

These are the exact games that we're not seeing in the Eastern Conference, so it's unfair for me to almost judge them. They didn't really click until the second half of last year, and that's probably generous. It was really February when this team really started to click. So with the addition of Klay Thompson, I think they're going to be very good. They're five and six, I think, which is probably not what they want to be, but, dude, I'll say I'm not worried about the Dallas Mavericks. I think their defense will come around. I think if you have Luca and Clay and Kyrie, your offense is going to be fine against every team in the league. So I'm not worried. I think this is just an awkward start, and they're playing the kinds of opponents build that we're not seeing Eastern Conference teams have to play. I was watching some of these Eastern Conference Emirates cup games this evening, and some of the. Some of the basketball wasn't as good, I would say. I noticed.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're at the Emirates cup was better last year.

[Dave Jacoby]

Maybe it's peaked. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll tell you what, I don't like about the Klay Thompson era in Dallas, when he takes 17 shots in a game and Kyrie Irving takes 13. If I'm the other team, I'm like, great, that sounds awesome. So Clay's going to take the second most shots on your team. Fantastic. We'll sign up for that right now. Because I felt like Kyrie could have gone by anybody he wanted in that game tonight. And I still think he's terrifying. And I still feel like I know they're Clay's like the new toy, you know, it's like when Jacobs, when we used to play pickup, once upon a time, we'd bring the third person and we try to get them involved in the first game. Then we want to stay in the court. We went back to what we did. Same thing I. Eventually Clay is going to be, hey, Clay, stand in the corner and you'll get your eight threes.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And.

[Bill Simmons]

But the big boys are going to handle this down the stretch, right? That's how this will play out, I would guess.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I think so. Phil, I have a question for you. Yeah, it's really about me. The, the Emirates NBA Cup.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it the NBA cup presented by Emirates or is it the Emirates NBA Cup?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Emirates NBA cup, my bad.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. And. And it's additive in its very core. It is additive. Like these games would be played anyway at sort of a lower level of competition on a less cool looking court. And we get a weekend in Vegas with two good games. There's nothing I can like poke holes in logically about it because it doesn't take anything from me. It gives me extra. But I'm asking you, what is my problem with it?

[Bill Simmons]

So my son who was doing homework tonight, like a good boy, oh, boy, came in and he's like, how come the courts are different? I'm like, oh, it's the NBA Cup. And he's looking, he's. There's three games on. He's looking at the courts. He's like, yeah, what's the point of this? And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, what's the point? And I was like, well, they did it last year. Remember the Lakers one? He's like, yeah, what's the point of this? And I was like, well, you know, they're five and then they go to Vegas and you win and, and the coaches get more money and the players get money. And he's like, doesn't everyone already have money? Like, yeah, but you know, the courts and so as long as you just don't think what's the point? I think you can allow yourself to have fun with that. Said Kirk. I was so excited. The Celtics, you know, I don't love Celtic losses, but I also don't want them to go to Vegas and play the two extra games. So I was like, if they're going to lose to the Hawks in the first day of the NBA Cup, I wasn't shedding tears. Where do you stand on the NBA Cup, Kirk?

[Dave Jacoby]

I like it. I think we're going to need to see a little bit more. I have to say, if the three of us are kind of confused by the format at that's not a good sign. I think like the six groups of five teams where point differential matters. I challenge you to name any group and list the teams in it right now. Like none of us can do that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. When you can't name any of the groups in a thing built around the groups, probably a fundamental flaw. Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

I didn't know the Hawks were in the Celtics group until the game started, you know, So I think some people have said, hey, maybe we should just do this with the divisions and send a division rep to Vegas. Maybe a couple of wild cards. I don't know what the solution is. I like the idea and I believe old school Bill Simmons maybe yellow page, page two.

[Bill Simmons]

Page two.

[Dave Jacoby]

Bill Simmons actually advocated for an in season tournament at some point.

[Bill Simmons]

I like it.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, this is you.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You did this Bill. Just take the credit.

[Bill Simmons]

I like it. I mean, there's a reason we waited to do the podcast till after day one of the NBA Cup. I was first of all, I was excited they finally got a name for it because last year we were calling it the Ist. Remember.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You'Re really concerned about the results.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's like, oh my God, my ist came back.

[Dave Jacoby]

It came back.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a reason I had rash on my balls. I have ist. This year we have the NBA Cups. Presented by em Reuters.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Emirates. Emirates.

[Bill Simmons]

Emirates.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Emirates.

[Bill Simmons]

So here's three things I like. One is they finally the NBA Cup. I like to. I think the courts are fun to either enjoy or complain about. Like the Celtics court tonight looked like a nuclear reactor hit it. Awful. The number one thing though is how everyone has to try into the bitter end because of this point differential. There was a moment in that Portland, Minnesota game. They're up 16 with five seconds left and like Jeremy Grant got thrown out of bounds and I thought there was going to be a fight. Although Timberwolf starters were in there, down 16. They inbounded the ball. They're like flying down and get like a layup. I was like, all right, that's cool. At least we got guys trying.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Tibbs is just running his normal rotation. I was looking at all the starters for the Knicks in. I was like, oh, this is what he does anyway, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

There's nothing. Nothing has changed. Nothing has changed there. But again, like, it's. It's all additive. It's just all additive. Like, I really don't understand what I don't like about it because it just gives us more competitive basketball during a lull in the season.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I know what you don't like.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And then we get.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't like contrived weekend. You don't like contrived things. It's fundamentally. This is contrived, but I still think it works. What were you going to say, Kirk?

[Dave Jacoby]

I don't think it should be in Vegas. And apologies to our friends in Nevada, but I went there. Bill, I remember I saw you in the concourse on the semifinal day.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Remember?

[Dave Jacoby]

I think it was a Tuesday. And they had the two semifinals back to back. They clear out the building and bring in another audience. And that's a plot point. I think this should be in Barclays in Madison Square Square Garden, and then the final should be in Madison Square Garden because it was felt so weird to be in Vegas in the middle of the day. None of the team's fans were there. Like, the Pacers fans couldn't make it out because they didn't know they were going there until like three days previous or something. So I wonder if it'd be better in New York City, where it would be dark outside. There's. If you go to Brooklyn, there are Pacers fans or Bucks fans or whoever else is making these semifinals. They're already in New York. So I think they would be attended better. And I think, yeah, there's just the Vegas during the 2pm Tip off in on a Tuesday just felt really weird. But that would be one of the things I'd look at for them, is bringing it to the east coast where Jacobi is, where there's two great arenas are and tons of basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

So bring it to Jacoby. That's what you're saying.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, bring it to Jacobi, bring it to Jacoby, bring it to the east coast. And by the way, just put another meaningful basketball game in Madison Square Garden every year. What's wrong with that?

[Bill Simmons]

See, I think the reason they're not doing that, Kirk, this is all part of the NBA's master plan.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

$6 billion expansion team. They're going to make it a process. It's not going to be an auction. It's going to be this is the price you're going to pay it. And by the way, wink, wink preferential treatment. If you're building us a new arena in Vegas that's built for basketball only. They build this awesome arena downtown. Whoever gets the group. So it's 6 billion for the team, another 2 billion for the arena, and then that is the arena that becomes for the NBA team, for the Aces, for the summer league and then for this NBA Cup. And I think that's why it stays in Vegas. I don't think it ever leaves. That would be my guess. Does that make sense?

[Dave Jacoby]

It makes sense and it probably is what they're doing. But yeah, they have Vegas.

[Bill Simmons]

Vegas is in their sights as I think they want it almost to be like the hub of the league in a lot of ways. It feels like lots more to discuss. We're going to take a quick break. Well, the NBA is in full swing and FanDuel is America's number one sportsbook. As you know, they want you to catch all the action right now. FanDuel giving everyone three months of NBA League pass. All you have to do to catch every tip off and buzzer beater is place any $5 bet on the NBA. I mean, you could watch the Cleveland Cavaliers. Are they ever going to lose? What's going to happen with this team? Is this the 2015 warriors recreated? Go check them out for yourself. Next time you get a hunch on who's going to win or how many points a player will score, you can watch your picks come to life live. Just visit FanDuel.com BS to get three months of NBA League Pass courtesy of FanDuel. Make every moment more with FanDuel official sportsbook partner of the NBA. You must be 21 + in President in select states or 18 + in President D.C. after a three month free trial, the full price of league pass will be automatically charged monthly. Cancel any time. No refunds. Terms, restrictions and embargoes apply. Limit one pass per customer. See [e-mail], get a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Peloton. Now, I know what you're thinking. Peloton doesn't look that tough. Well, let me tell you, Peloton is way more challenging than most people think. Whether you're on the peloton tread or diving into their all access membership. They've got a wealth of running and strength training programs that will really push you to your limits. And these instructors, they're not messing around. We're talking military trained sub three hour marathoners and former college athletes who know how to bring out your inner beast. With tons of options to choose from, you can gear up for race day with seasoned marathoners leading the charge. Plus custom strength workouts to keep you accountable and crushing those goals. Peloton is all about the details too. Want to up your game as a runner? Well, their pace targets let you tailor your workout so you can truly challenge yourself every step of the way. Find your push, find your power with [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Simplisafe. It is football season, which means the holidays are coming up and actually Simplisafe is already having a Black Friday sale. So if you're worried about the safety of your home and family, now is the time to get home security. I personally like to use Simplisafe because they can stop intruders before they break into your home. That's kind of the goal. I think. They take home security to the next level with their active guard outdoor protection. It's not an old school system. They only take action when somebody is already in your house. No, that's not Simplisafe. They take action before somebody gets in your house. There's no long term contracts, no cancellation fees. It's around $1 a day and it gives me peace of mind and helps me and my family feel protected. So take advantage of this Black Friday sale this week only. Right now you could take 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. Head to SimpliSafe.com BS to claim your discount and make sure your home is safe this season. Keep your home, your family and your peace of mind protected with Simplisafe. Again go to simplisafe.com BS that is SimpliSafe with two eyes. There's no safe like Simplisafe. So Hawks Celtics tonight, which was the game of the day in a lot of ways because it was the biggest upset. The Hawks were 16 point underdogs on FanDuel heading into the game, which I thought was ridiculous because the line was reflective of that. Trae Young wasn't playing and as a Celtic fan I was like crap, Trae Young's not playing. Now they're going to just have long athletic guys and they're going to actually play defense and we're not going to be able to just pick on Trae Young with every offensive possession in the last nine minutes of the game. No shots fired at Trey, but shots fired at Trey because that's what Boston would have done. I thought the Hawks stumbled into their team tonight, guys. It's Jalen Johnson and Risa Shay and Dyson Daniels, who is now the best defensive swing in the league, I think. And if he's not, he's in the conversation for it. And it's just this athletic team with two bigs. Doesn't really matter who's in that guard spot. It could be Bogdanovich when he comes back. But it's a team without Trey that I thought fell into place. What do you think? Jacobs watching them.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Dyson Daniels, I mean, had a career night tonight, so it's easy to celebrate him. But he has been playing really well all year for the Hawks. And then you mix in Keaton Wallace, and then you kind of start to get this like. Kind of like Oklahoma City Thunder light thing going on, where we got a bunch of long, fast defenders that are capable on the offensive side, but it's really hard to get baskets on. And you could tell that Daniels was just getting up in Jayson Tatum early, just like regular Norma that he does. Just goes around a screen and Daniel sticks his shoulder in there. He got called for a foul on one, but he's just. He was just making Jayson Tatum uncomfortable the entire time. And I was. I was really enjoying the game, but I was very, very thrown by Quinn Snyder, Sally Jesse Raphael classes. I don't know what that was. And if you're younger, she used to have a talk show in the afternoon. They used to be really important for some reason. And she always wore red frames. I'm like, Quinn Snyder, what made you do that? What made you do that?

[Bill Simmons]

He's. He's been. He's been acting super goofy on the sidelines with his looks for. For two years. So Daniels was in the Dejounte Murray trade, and the trade was Daniels nance and unprotected 2025, Lakers first and the worst of either a Pelicans or a Bucks 2027 first, which now seems a lot more enticing than it did over the summer. But I was watching the game tonight just honestly thinking, Murray versus Daniels, who would I rather have? Especially, like with the ringer hundred. I just think Daniels is a better asset. What he does is more unusual. I think he's 21 or 22, somebody that never really got a chance to play in the Pelicans because they had so many wings ahead of them and they even had Herb Jones who did a lot of the same stuff that he does. I think you do it over again, Kirk. Just Daniels for Murray feels like a pretty fair trade. Not to mention all the other stuff they had. That's one of the better trades anyone's made. It almost makes up for all the shit they gave up for Murray in the first place. Like who would you rather have, Daniels or Murray?

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, I think Daniels is the defender that Atlanta thought they were getting with Dejounte, but Dejounte just never showed up as a defender for them. It didn't work. I love Dyson Daniels. I think he's had freaking six steals, three games in a row. Bill. That is like Kawhi Leonard stuff. We don't see those numbers. He's a legitimate defensive player of the year candidate. And you're right. Looking back at that trade, I think it's fair to be. It's fair to be on Atlanta side of the deal at this point because I think Larry Nance also played very well tonight. He's at least a nice rotation piece.

[Bill Simmons]

And New Orleans misses him too.

[Dave Jacoby]

And yeah, yeah, they was finishing games.

[Bill Simmons]

For them last year.

[Dave Jacoby]

He's a great player, a great rotation piece, I should say. And I think that Jalen Johnson is the other revelation. This dude had a triple double tonight. And when Trae Young is out there, we don't see these guys get to do this. I know when Trae Young is out there, we see Trae Young being Trae Young almost every trip down the floor. And so for me tonight I thought it was a revelation. I don't know if this is sustainable, but I didn't know Jalen Johnson had that. I didn't know that he could go out and get 10 assists and score the ball and rebound the ball like that and essentially being a leader. And Dyson Daniels also sort of a really powerful two way playmaker, which is quirky offensive game. But I agree. I think this, at least this game makes you think about an Atlanta future without Trey Young in it.

[Bill Simmons]

And he has the ball a lot. For them, it was a situation where he would come out of the game and then Jalen Johnson would have the ball a lot. Daniel sometime. And it almost feels like they're interchangeable. When they have Risa Shay out there, it feels like they just have these six, nine interchangeable. All kind of multi skilled, good defenders. They know how to play. Jacobs, is it time? Do we, do we open? Do we open the trade machine for Trey Young?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

The Trademark.

[Bill Simmons]

See the Trey machine.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Who wants Trey Young? That's very good question. Yeah, I was just like, who? What team is Trey Young away from? Wherever they want to be. Because there is not one in my mind. There's not a single team that is willing to give up what it takes to bring Trae Young in just salary wise that makes them better. Like, who is Trey Young away from their goals? Answer that question.

[Bill Simmons]

It's an incredible question. And I looked through as you know, I'm the Picasso, the trade machine. I'm like, I'll find three trades right now. Like snap my fingers. It's going to happen. And you start going through and it's like, yeah, they probably don't want them now they have point guard. Well, what do they like a team like Brooklyn. Well, what do they want Trae Young for? They're actually playing well. Like they don't. It's not like they're. What's he going to do for them? Oh, Washington. Would they trade Jordan Poole and picks for Trey Young? Why would you do that? You start going through all the teams and honestly the only team I could find was the Lakers. That was it.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Just think about what you're adding to what you're putting into the fish tank.

[Dave Jacoby]

Another player, I think he might have found a Jacoby. The Lakers, do they like their point guard right now?

[Bill Simmons]

So that's where you have to go, where it's like, it's, it's D'Angelo Russell expiring. It's Rui just to make the contracts work. It's. What did they do that hood Schifino, which they made him that his contract's now expiring. And then they have a couple firsts and it's like, here's your chance to get out of the Trae Young business. Get some picks and build the team around Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels, which by the way, I think is a good idea. And by the way, Trae Young's not playing well this year.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

But why would the Lakers do that? You're gonna call JJ Reddick and be like, oh, we made a trade.

[Bill Simmons]

Why would the Lakers do that? They traded for Westboro Fair. Why did they do anything?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

When you add Trey Young to the team, every other player that is still on the team is going to be like, this is going to be hell. Every other player. Unless you're just like a lob catcher.

[Bill Simmons]

Every single person in the lobby, him and Davis. I'm pushing it because I really want the Lakers to do it. Now here's my Other scenario for the.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Lifelong Laker fan Bill Simmons, always rooting for the Lakers.

[Bill Simmons]

What if I offered you Trey Young, sixth man, just staring at me like the heads of two chickens?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, yeah. Well, how much are you going to pay, sixth man?

[Bill Simmons]

Just Trey Young coming off the bench.

[Dave Jacoby]

$42 million, I think. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, you know what? He's a little overpaid, but he's the heat check guy. Coming off the bench for us, 22 minutes a game. Oh, you're not happy. Too bad. No, no. I don't know. I'm. I. I'm just trying to figure out outs for them because I think they know they're. The team I saw tonight is the team they should be.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Here's what's happening, Bill, is you like the Hawks and I like the Hawks.

[Bill Simmons]

I do. I. I've watched the Hawks, and you.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Want to see this. You want to see this version of the Hawks? You like this version of the Hawks better than the Trey Young version. So let me offer this to you.

[Bill Simmons]

I like. I like defense length Hawks. That's defense length Hawks is my Hawks.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Let's. Let's do who we offer sixth man Trae Young to the fucking Hawks. That's who you offer it to.

[Bill Simmons]

That was my point. Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You're trying to offer to another team, like, no. Coming off the bench. No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

This is gonna. John Havlicek came off the bench. Kevin McHale came off the bench.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He's like, who.

[Bill Simmons]

Great players.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Who are these people?

[Bill Simmons]

Great players have come off the bench. Yeah. The big picture point is, you would have thought like, oh, we'll find three teams for Trae Young, but there's so many point guards now, and everyone's so afraid of taking salary that I don't know what the move is. You could have probably talked New Orleans into it over the summer, but they traded Murray there, so I don't know. Is there any other team you could think of, Kirk? The Spurs? That's a no go, right?

[Dave Jacoby]

Hell no. That's a hell no.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

And I think Jacoby hit on it. And I actually texted a couple of friends around the league just to take their temperature on it. Yeah, they said there's no market for this guy. I don't know if they're right or wrong, but the number is, again, the CBA is not this old CBA like it is. It is brutal if you start overpaying for talent, particularly starting guard. So everybody has a point guard, as we said, and I think he's not sort of enchanting Anybody around the league. But I do like the idea of him taking a six man role in the land. I don't know if they can pull that off, but that would be interesting to see. Come to play.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, because you think like Brandon Ingram, nobody wanted him all summer. David Griffin basically put him on ebay and everybody said, no, no, we're good. And then you watch the season, they had some injuries and he's 25 a game and he's finishing games for them as the crunch time guy. He's the guy with the ball in his hands the last two minutes. Nobody wanted him. Over the course of the summer, nobody wants Zach Levine, who's averaging, I think 23 or 24 a game for the Bulls. It feels like there's this inflection point with prices and I, I think another one, honestly, is Dame. I like people, they're like, Milwaukee blows it up, they'll trade Giannis, they'll trade Dame. It's like, will they trade Dame? Dame's going to make $60 million in two years, by the way. Watch them play tonight. That's much like the Hawks. Like they were actually playing defense tonight because he was out of the game. So I might, there might just be some guys that. It's just the salary makes it a non negotiable trade. I don't know, what are we going to say, Jacobs?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, two things. Number one, and also like, let's just not forget just how much Trey Young has the ball in his hands at all times and it's ineffective without it. So if you put him on a team in an ecosystem, you're basically just signing up for a Luka Doncic like offense without Luka Doncic like performance. And one thing that we haven't discussed enough is, you know, I don't, I don't like, watch too much college basketball and grind tape. I study up before the draft on you guys. But all we heard about was how bad this draft was. How bad this draft was. I watched Zachary Risa Shay absolutely cook the New York Knicks. Like Risa Shay thus far and we're like 11 games in, has looked like a number one pick. He really has. And like, and I, you know, happiness is a function of expectations. My expectations were low enough for all these rookies that Risa Shays has been like, I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a piece. That's a, that's a piece.

[Bill Simmons]

Should I have contacted you a month ago when I bought all that property on Recess Island House and Marcelo thought I was kidding.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, It's a develop. It's a developing part of France. You know, everyone talks about Monaco and nice, great shots, you know? Yeah, yeah, great shots.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, I forgot to mention this. With Dyson Daniels, our friends, the NBA University Twitter feed, which is really good. They had deflections per game plus total steals and they had the leaders. And by the way, number two on the list was Nikola Jokic, guy who allegedly can't play defense and yet is always in the right spots touching everything. But he was 4.4, Anunoby's 4.2, Caruso's 4.1. Dyson Daniels was 7.3. He's almost 3 higher than everyone else in the league. And tonight I think he had like nine or ten. When you watch him on defense, it's like watching a free safety in football who like is just touching everything or almost getting an interception or hitting guys. Before I was blown away by him. Now, the key to the game for the Hawks was that Tatum. I don't think Tatum should have played. I think they made a mistake because Giannis stepped on his foot in the Bucks game. He didn't have the same burst. I thought he was pretty tentative. Jalen carried the Jalen and Derek White carried them, but he kind of ate up Tatum. And I think if it was Tatum from five days ago, maybe it's not exactly the same, but. But I. I don't know, man. I've been watching this Hawks all year. That was one of my over under locks. It's like I think 37 and a half. It was down to 32 and a half. I bet more on it on Boston. I like the socks team. Um, one more thing about the. This whole combo. Guys who made a leap this season, the Hawks have two. Jalen Johnson and Daniels. Lamelo obviously made a leap. Jacoby, you and you and you and Verno talked about that today in a podcast where the highlight of the podcast was Verno trying to figure out if Michael Jordan had ever had 15 assists in a game and then being unable to google it for three minutes.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I thought we were going to edit that out.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to google it right now. It's like, although we're gonna take a break, come back. I'm still googling it. It just took forever. Why did he just Google Michael Jordan's game career game logs? That should take five seconds. But anyway, you talked about, you talked about Lamello on that pod, how the joy that he's playing with. They got killed tonight. And I think Cade's another one that Seems like he went a notch up. Kirk, who else do you have that you feel like is just different than last year?

[Dave Jacoby]

Grady Dick.

[Bill Simmons]

Hmm. I agree.

[Dave Jacoby]

Grady Dick is leading all sophomore players in scoring, which is insane. He's ahead of women a lot. He is like their primary offensive playmaker in some parts of the game. So I did not expect to see that. He had 32 tonight. I think there was the game they should have won against Denver last week and that dude had 26. Like this guy, he, he doesn't look like an NBA player. His face changes color depending on what quarter we're in. And he's, he plays such a weird kind of aggressive, slashy game. I thought he was going to be more of a spot up shooter, but he has made a leap and Toronto looks like they have something there that I didn't expect to have last year.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what, Grady Dick, what I like about him, he's like the guy who shows up and pick up that. You're like, who the fuck is this guy? And then you start watching him play and he does like a 27 foot step back and makes it and starts talking shit. You're like, what's going on with this guy? He's very unusual. I feel like he occupies a specific part of the NBA universe with Tyler Herro and they're just kind of over on the side. Like there's only. Is there anybody else like that? Jacobs?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, the thing about Grady Dick is he didn't really do much last year beside like wear a cool draft suit and like exchange jerseys with Anthony Black. That's kind of like what I remember about him. And like Kirk, I was like, oh, this guy's a shooter. You know, he'll shoot at 40%. There's always a spot for like a tall shooter that can play a little defense. But then you watch the Raptors, which I do from time to time, and he's like, he's, he's getting to the rim. Like he's finishing with knuckles at the rim, getting past his defender and like taking on a second help defender and scoring. I'm like, where was this guy last year? Like, what is this and is it? And you know what? I'm going to answer the question you asked Kirk too, because we were talking about it. R.J. barrett's kind of taking a little mini leap too. And my question for you, Bill, because you're always astute to sort of point this out, is like, they're going to score 95 points, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Somebody's got to get 95.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's going to come from somewhere. So do you think these are actual mini leaps or is just sort of a function of them being capable NBA players without superstars on their team?

[Bill Simmons]

No, the Grady Dick thing looks real to me because it seems like he can create shots for him and other players even in fourth quarters. It doesn't seem flukey to me at all. The RJ thing, you know, he would have these little runs even on the Knicks where he would have these little like four or five week where it's like, oh, RJ Barrett. Oh, did you see these numbers? The last 11 games? And then he would dip down. So I don't know if I totally trust him. I think somebody in the ringer wrote about it this week. I think it was Michael Pina about. I think Castle is really interesting and I know he's not a leap guy because he's a rookie, but I thought that was somebody. If I had to gun to my head who's going to win rookie of the year, I probably would have picked him. I didn't feel good about any of the choices, but it feels like there's a lot of room on the ceiling for him. So I feel like he's going to take a leap during the season potentially. There's a couple of Portland guys that I think are in this combo too. I don't know if you saw tonight. And there was some scoot stuff tonight.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

There was some scoot stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

There was some scoot beating guys off the dribble, banging off big bodies in traffic moments. There was some defense from scoot. There was some chemistry. It seems like the whole bench is rooting for him. Anytime he does anything, there's guys jumping off the bench and that's not.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

That's not a good sign. My rec team does that for me too. Like every time I hit a jump shot, they over celebrate because I'm so mad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, it's one of those.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

My confidence. Yeah, yeah, it's bad. It's really annoying.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, we should talk about the Portland Minnesota because the Portland's the weirdest team in the league. They have three legitimate centers tonight. Robert Williams was awesome. Eight and didn't play. Klingon comes in. He's really good too. They have all these swings and guards and it just seems like it would be a really hard team to coach. But I think they're a little bit better and a little bit friskier than maybe I expected. And what really happened is they beat Minnesota, who's now 6 and 5. Have we veered into the Is it time to start worrying about Minnesota stage of the season?

[Dave Jacoby]

Kirk again, I'm going to say no. I think they deserve time to sort of implement their new pieces with Randle and Dante. This is a bad loss though. You can't lose to that team in the Emirates NBA cup of all times to lose to a bad team. So I think I would have expected them to win this game. I still think the west is loaded again. These aren't the kinds of records. If they were playing in the east they would have a much better record. So they're just playing tougher games.

[Bill Simmons]

But they were down 20 to Portland with three minutes left. That's not great.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's not great. I think Finch is good. I love Ant. I think that Go Bear starts you at worst as the fifth ranked defense in the NBA. I think they're going to be fine once they get settled into this season again. Remember our Western Conference champion last year didn't look good until February. So yeah, I think they, I think they're going to come around. I think they're just too talented on both ends of the court. They have a good coach and they have depth. So I think this is just an awkward start from a group that hasn't really played basketball together very much. I don't know. What do you guys think?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's too early to sort of really be concerned about it. But I just. If you are a Timberwolves fan and you've convinced. So I've. I've been watching Julius Randle play basketball for, for his entire stint on the Knicks and there's been, there's been all star years and big, huge games and big shots and big moments. But he is a very, very frustrating player to be a fan of. And I think that nights like tonight you see that where it's like you took nine shots, you're 0 for 3 from 3. You just didn't impact the game in any way, shape or form. And when you have someone like Anthony Edwards on the team every time Randle has the ball and he starts to like operate, I'm like, I'd probably have that. I'd rather have that other guy doing that, you know, because he does this like mid range sort of back down like, like super, super poor broke man. Carmelo kind of turn around from the baseline thing and it's very, very frustrating because it's just effective enough that he will keep on doing it. But on a team that also has Anthony Edwards because the Knicks didn't have a player that could get his own shot like Randle did, which is why he was so successful there. But if you have Anthony Edwards, just the opportunity cost of his operating is just too great.

[Bill Simmons]

So we just had an election. I'm not sure if you guys saw we changed presidents again. It was last week.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Did Emmett sponsor Emirates? Sponsor it.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the. One of the recurring themes every time you have an election is somebody does the. Are we better off right now than we were four years ago? It was always like a question, right? If I'm a Timberwolves fan, I'm just fundamentally big picture. I know we're going to start early. These guys have to learn how to play together, all that stuff. Am I better off in mid November than I was in mid May? Would be the thing I'd be thinking about. And the answer is unequivocally no.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

The answer is no. You could say Edwards is a little better and a little more confident. And the summer playing with all the stars, the things he learns is a better three point shooter. I get all that. But the identity of that team, really, from January on last year, how good they were defensively, how tough they were to play with their size, just how fucking weird they were night to night. And just that there was nobody else like them. And you felt like they could overpower people with their size and their defense and get enough scoring to make it work. And now I watch them and I don't know what their superpower is other than Edwards. Like, Kirk made the key point. Like, if you have Gobert, you're still going to be like one of the best seven defenses. But you're not going to be compared to the 2004 Pistons with the team they have now. And I know they have to figure it out, but I thought Dillingham was going to play more for them. He's not playing at all. You know, they kept their fingers crossed with Joe Ingalls. That didn't work out. They lost Slow Mo, who I thought was weirdly valuable for them last year. McDaniels has finally gotten going a little bit for them. He was borderline unplayable before, but they just don't feel special to me. I have them. I, you know, okc, Dallas, Denver, Phoenix, Golden State. I think they're below all five of those teams. Kirk, is that crazy?

[Dave Jacoby]

I don't think that's crazy. Again, the west is so stacked that being the fifth or the sixth seed over there is no sort of bad situation. I mean, that's a good team. Whoever's going to land there is probably A pretty good team. You know, I think they had to do something. You can't pay Go Bear, Ant and Towns. You just can't do that. That's not what their owner wants. And I hate to be the cap guy, but part of this move was to get off the Towns deal for all the out years and get. Get some flexibility, maybe get off Randall when he expires and have more flexibility for a team that's built around Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert long term with players like Nas reed and Dante DiVincenzo and Nikhil Alexander Walker, who's been awesome. So, you know, again, this is the boring character in the NBA saga is the cba. But I think it explains some of their reasoning for this trade in the first place. But are they better off as a basketball team? No, you're right, they're not. Not right now. But long term, I think within the constraints of the. Of the team building sort of apparatus that the league is sort of put on us, they see a path to be a championship team with Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert and a bunch of great role players in depth. Whether that'll work, I don't know. I think they're going to be fine. I think I'd put them at four or five right now if I had to say in the West, I can't get there.

[Bill Simmons]

And you know, I actually had talked myself into the Randall defense part of the trade Jacobs to before the season. It's like, you know what? No, it's like, you know, the Towns go Bear thing was always weird. Put in Randall. Randall's a proven 2010 guy. DeFensenzo will give them some scoring off the bench. But I just. You're right. We probably. We probably should wait until near the All Star break to really look at this. But I just. They don't seem special to me in the same way anymore. Whereas I watched a team, Mike Houston, who. And I don't even know if they know who their best five guys are right now, but Houston has moments that remind me of Minnesota last year when they. When they put in the Easton and Thompson combo and you're just like, holy shit. Like these guys are like fucking destroying the game right now. They just have a lot of options. And I wonder. Part of me wonders is that just going to be this year's kind of fun, weird wrinkle to the season. Houston, like, I don't know if they're gonna be as successful as Minnesota was last year, but they remind me of the feeling I got from Minnesota last year. I'm like, Jesus, what is this team? Don't you feel that way with Houston? You watch them like, whoa, Jesus, what's going on with this team? In a good way, not a bad way.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I've. I have faith in Eme Udoka as a basketball coach. Maybe not as a life partner, but the young nucleus that they have, like, the young nucleus that they have, they have so many fun players to watch play basketball that I just feel like it's gonna filter down. They've kind of got like a Method man stole this from someone else. He said, if you can't get yourself a 10, at least you can sleep with 5 twos. It feels like they've got, like, they're like they're on the honor roll, but they've got like seven B minuses. You know what I mean? I just feel like. Like it's gonna. It's gonna shape itself out. Like who their three stars are there to commit to long term and what they build around. Cause it seems like they've got seven guys that they could potentially, like, build around as the future of their team.

[Bill Simmons]

I think. Nephew Kai, I really enjoyed that analogy. I'm just guessing he might not even be awake right now. We gotta take one more break. Couple more things to discuss. This episode is brought to you by Uber Reserve. You know it's a game changer for travel. Booking my ride in advance to the airport with Uber Reserve. Uber Reserve makes it easy to plan my whole trip. I just did this. Booking rides up to 90 days in advance. Help squeeze the most out of traveling. Especially if you're doing odd hours, rush hours, like early in the morning, you gotta do it. Plus, with Uber Reserve, you'll get an assigned driver, you get upfront pricing, and you get extra wait time included. So go ahead, plan like a pro. Reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Seeing a band or your favorite sports team in person is great, but it could be even better with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card. It can help turn every moment into an unforgettable experience. With early access tickets to concerts and sporting events and access to some of the best seats in the house. You'll also earn three times the points on travel and dining purchases. Find your next experience with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Old El Paso. Does gameday hosting feel like an extreme sport? Not anymore. With Old El Paso Feeding your hungry crowd is oh so easy. Old El Paso's crunchy stand and stuffed shells, bold seasonings and squeezable sauces are fumble free, flavor packed and perfect for cheering on your team. Football season is taco season with Old El Paso. Level up your next tailgater Watch Party Shop gameday essentials@old elpaso.com all right, couple more things before we go on this. On the it's like three in the morning for Jacob. I don't even know how late it is there. How late is it?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

1:30, 1:30.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, the night's just started for you.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. Bars are open for two and a half more hours.

[Bill Simmons]

A former MVP returned tonight. Joel Embiid came back and played the New York Knicks and played for about five minutes and looked like he was going to keel over. Then he left, Disappeared. Was he hurt? Not sure. Came back, played some more. Every time the game stopped, he was keeled over with both hands on his knees like a 53 year old guy playing pickup over Thanksgiving. It was pretty brutal. Paul George looked good and beat did not and they lost. And I guess this is just how it's going to go as Embiid plays himself into shape. I'm doing air quotes. Phillies 2 and 8. I don't really see how this Embiid thing goes over the next, I don't know, six, seven, eight weeks. But most of the scenarios are not good. There's a couple scenarios where it's like three weeks from now. Oh my God, Embiid, he's got his legs back. He just put up 48 on Orlando. There's a whole bunch of other scenarios where it's like, yeah, Embiid, they're going to have to shut it down again for a week or Embiid walked off again or oh my God. When Embiid plays, the other team has the highest offensive rebounding rate in the league because he just seems like he's anchored in the middle of the paint. It's not great, Kirk. They just gave him the extension. They built this whole team. They went all in. There was a lot of preseason hype as a possible champion, which I thought was ludicrous. It's not great. What are you seeing?

[Dave Jacoby]

I saw one of the worst games I've ever seen Joel play today. 2 of 11 in 26 minutes, 3 rebounds. This is supposed to be one of the most impactful players in the whole league, man, and he took it easy. And he is, like you say, playing his way into shape. But also the sixers are playing their way out of any kind of postseason potential. They're like 2 and 8. And I. It's a lot of Kyle Lowry, too, out there because Maxie's hurt. And I just don't know how much deeper they can dig. In a normal year, they'd be screwed right now. But the east is so bad. Below the Cavs and Celtics, there's still time for them to be fine. But what. What I need to see is more from Joel. He did not look active. He did not look competitive. And if that's what we're going to get this year or this fall, like, they're not going to be good, period. Jacoby was texting earlier. He didn't seem very impressed. Is that fair to say?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Jacoby, if you give me 40 seconds to tell a personal story. I play a lot of Golden Tea, as you guys know, and I'm very good at Golden Tea. I've got a profile. I routinely just put up high scores wherever I go. People sometimes crowd around. I've played Bill and beaten Bill every time we played, but so natural. And one time, the great Connor Schell sent me to Vegas to go to, like, the Golden Tee World Championship. And it was there that I found that I'm not good at Golden Tea. I'm just the better than the people that happen to be in my proximity. And I watched these men and women play Golden Tee to level that I was just not ready to be around. And I felt like that's how Joel Embiid was this evening. Because there was something. I had much higher expectations for this because he played in the Olympics. There was no, like, reported surgery or injury or anything that serious. He had the suspension, which delayed his comeback even further. And I actually saw him in pregame, and his arms looked kind of skinny. And I was like, oh, look, he's in shape. But he was. He was me playing professional golden tears tonight. He was not ready for the speed and just the physicality of NBA basketball. I remember one rebound bounced off the rim. And you watch enough NBA basketball as we do, you're just kind of used to the rhythm of how things work. And it was his rebound. It was a rebound for Joel Embiid. And as a Knicks fan, I'm assuming that we're going the other way. And Katt just kind of circled around him and grabbed it and put it back. And I was just like, what was that? It was like he wasn't even trying. So this was more of a me problem that I expected so much more from Joel Embiid. Because he looked like someone who hadn't played for two years and was just kind of, like, coming back and should have come off the bench.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So this was something that became a real problem for them in the playoffs. Him protecting the boards from offensive rebounders, people crashing, people out, hustling him. Basically, there's a big reason why the Knicks won that series. Then you go to the Olympics. It was a big reason why Kerr had trouble playing him even when he was, like, able to score. Like, even against. When they played Jokic. Jokic had four fouls, and he put a couple shots, but he was still, like, giving up the boards. And it just. It feels like when you watch Embiid, when he. He can still get the shots that he wants, whether they go in or not, whether he's in shape or not. It just seems like he can barrel around, whirl around, he can get positioned near the basket. But what goes are the protecting his own rim when he's on defense and just the speed of just being able to move around, where it just seems like he's doing this as guys are kind of flying around him. And then there's a clumsiness that seems to ratchet up when the less in shape he is around the basket, where he'll get in position, then he'll just come crashing down. I just. I don't see it. I really feel like there might have been too many injuries for him to come back for at the level that he was at two years from now. So this has now become one of the big stories of the year is. And people are going to go, well, he's hurt. He's got to play himself back in shape. Well, it's mid November. You know, the Sixers got eliminated from the playoffs at the end of April. He didn't have to play in the Olympics. He did. Um, I don't know how you can't. Why you can't stay in shape when you're rehabbing. I guess I just don't understand enough about it. If your knee hurts, aren't there still ways to stay in shape so you don't look like you're completely, completely, completely gassed four minutes into a basketball game? I don't get it.

[Dave Jacoby]

Can I ask you guys a question? If this were Shaq, right? If you were tracking Shaq's career from Orlando all the way through the end, what era Shaq is? 2024. Joel Embiid.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, really important point, and it's something we talked about this summer. Like, this is what Happens to big guys. So right now he's in like 2000. What he looked like tonight. He's in like the 2008 Phoenix range. Yeah, right.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Phoenix era. And it's not pretty, but this is what it looks like. I'm sorry. Like, he's been in the league 11.

[Bill Simmons]

Years, you know, I don't know. I'd be. I'd be losing my. If I was Sixers fan, I'd be losing my mind. I would just be like, how did all of this happen? Why did he play in the Olympics? What. Why didn't you tell us what happened with him with his. With his legs before the season started? Why was there all this mystery around it? Is he healthy now? What's wrong with him now? Can you tell us? And it just seems like they're, I don't know, being super tight lipped about everything. Plus, they gave him the extension, which is the other piece of this. Like, they gave him this massive extension, which is very similar to what happened with the Pelicans with Zion, but they kind of doubled down on somebody who had never really shown that they could stay healthy for that long. And that's. You start doing that, it's. You can't come back from that. With the way the cap is now, I don't know. Bum me out. I like watching him bead when he's healthy. And I just. The guy tonight didn't even look close.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

There's a version of this where after the All Star Game, he's back to being MVP Embiid, because we've seen. We've seen Peak Embiid be absolutely dominant just as night after night, not just scoring. Like, do you remember when they used to just like, give it to him at the nail and like, run around him and he would just either if you backed off him, he would turn and shoot, or he would back you down if he had a mismatch. Like, there was a while where they would just. I think Doc was the coach. Where they would just give it to him at the foul line and just that's how they started their offense. And it was beautiful because he was playmaking, he was shooting, he was going to the rim, he was step backing. And now it just seems like that guy just doesn't exist anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

How does. How does it play out for you, Kirk? Because I'll just tell you this. I've been around a long time and we talked about this overrunners, like, just with the history of the league, and I was talking about how Blake Griffin was a good example of this, who had a different set of injuries than Embiid did, but at some point there were too many of them and it passed the point of no return and you can't come back. And that's what we've seen over and over again. Zion's a really unusual case because it just seems over and over again it's hamstrings. And like, I was driving around my wife yesterday and I had Termini and Eddie on. They were talking about him, and my wife was like, I don't understand. How do you have, like, chronically bad hamstrings? Like, you just have to stretch and stay hydrated. What's wrong with this guy? And I was like, honey, we've been asking this for six years. There is no answer.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Why does she listen to Terminy and Eddie with you spousal abuse?

[Bill Simmons]

Better question. It was her listening. After five minutes straight of her going, get these guys off and put music on, I was like, I just want to hear this part.

[Dave Jacoby]

Of those guys. I think, to answer your question, I think this is Miami. First of all, Shaq's a better player, but I would put him in that. Optimistically, the Miami era, Shaq, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

There is, oh, six Shaq. Okay.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think there's a chance that he is still capable of turning a corner and getting in shape. So I think that's the optimistic version. I think the pessimistic version is Phoenix Shaq, which is like, we're never going to see what we thought we were used to seeing ever again. So it feels like he has about 30 games to figure this out. And if he doesn't, that contract is going to be an albatross, plain and simple.

[Bill Simmons]

Like an all timer.

[Dave Jacoby]

An all timer.

[Bill Simmons]

Part of me wonders why they brought it back at all. I don't understand what the upside was of putting him out. It just feels like it would be way easier for him to get hurt worse than whatever upside you get from actually playing him. A couple more things I had for you guys. Oh, this is along the lines of the injuries thing. I heard Jacoby and Verno before Verno spent four minutes googling MJ's assist record. You guys were talking about why there are more injuries this year, and I was walking the streets of LA and I was like, you know what? I have a take on this, and I'm going to drop it on my podcast tonight. And it's not even that I might have even said this take before. I just think basketball is way faster, more Aggro to play. There's more running, there's more stop and start, there's more collisions. It's a completely different sport than it was 40 years ago. And anybody who says differently because they watch like on TikTok, the montage of the bad boy Pistons clotheslining a couple guys, like I'm telling you, people played way harder now than they did in the 80s and 90s. And here's how I know. Go on YouTube and watch any of the regular season games from back then. There's not guys chasing out on the side and flying out. There's not like these massive collisions over and over again. It was just completely different. It was a lot of post up stuff, a lot of guys standing around. The fast breaks were like nice and smooth and well orchestrated and just layups. And I just think it's a more violent sport now, for lack of a better word. That's what I see. Like Chet Holmgren got hurt on like a violent collision where he's trying to protect the basket, which by the way, he does a million times, right? And it finally went wrong on him. But I just think the way the sports played now contributes to it. And I don't really think there's another answer. What do you think, Kirk?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, I think so. I think pace and space are a big part of it. And tonight was a great example. We were texting about the sort of awful Tim Hardaway injury that happened in the Detroit game and he got that. That was a very violent play. And then in that same game, I think it was Jaden Ivy got caught like on a closeout and land on his spine. And then you look at all the pelicans and the hamstring injuries, I think those are resulting from the sport being faster and really demanding on. On athletes being athletes for a huge amount of time running up and down side to side in ways that you're. That Kevin McHale never did or Robert Parrish never did. And I think both of those things are a factor. It's still a very physical sport. And 82 games of this is the other thing I would say is it's not just the game is faster and wider. We're still asking the guys to play 82 of them. And that's a lot on playoffs plus playoffs, plus potentially the Emirates cup championship, that 83rd game for two lucky teams. So I think all of those things lead into it. But you're exactly right. It's the demand on the bodies in the pace and space era is just unprecedented by NBA standards.

[Bill Simmons]

Plus Jacobs not being able to do cocaine anymore like he could in the 70s and 80s that might have been.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I was going to go the other way. They don't drink enough beer. I mean that's really what it is. Look at, look, the MVP of the league, the undisputed best player in the league is fat. And he doesn't jump and he doesn't run fast.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not fat, he's lumpy.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He never gets hurt. Do you know why he doesn't get hurt? Because he doesn't have fast twitch muscles. He doesn't change directions, he doesn't jump in the air and collide against his defender and then double clutch and try to do a360 and finish with his left hand. And I think that I am joking somewhat, but it just speaks to your original point is it's just so much faster. And you kind of now have to be an absolute physical freak of nature to be LeBron to play this sport. And then you look at someone like Zion where it's like, yeah, he's £300. He could 360 windmill. That's not normal.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's not normal.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's not normal. And when you watch him play, he goes into his defender and he bumps into his defender, clears space and finishes with his left hand. And like there is collision after collision in the air which leads to things.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like Chet and if you look at Bill, if one other thing, I was talking to Rod Adams from the warriors. You remember Ron Adams, their old coach? And he was, he told me one time, he's like, Kirk, basketball used to be a two foot sport and now it's a one foot sport. So if you look at Jokic's teammate, Jamal Murray, he tore his ACL doing what? A Euro step. That move didn't exist 25 years ago. Dejounte Murray tore his all. Jonathan Isaac tore his a lot on these one legged moves. So it used to be two feet in the paint drop step in this and now it is torque on that one foot drive. And that's very violent on your knees and I think on your muscles too. But it was just from a guy.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how Derek Rose got hurt by the way, when he same thing flying to the basket, remember?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, one foot, here I go as fast as I can. Euro step, decelerate, put everything on my lower body that I can. And it was just a guy who'd been in the league for 50 years being like, here's something that's different. And it was so authoritative and simple. But I do think like Just like those fundamental offensive moves, like going from the drop step to the euro step increased a lot of injury risk for our guys, like Jamal Murray.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Not to mention, when you euro step, you're swinging your elbows through your defender's face. Don't forget that part.

[Bill Simmons]

No, one thing I would. Another thing along what Kirk said. So you look back, like, something as you know, I'll go on ebay at all hours and I'll go in weird auctions and they'll sell the shoes from the 50s, 60s and 70s, you know, and you see the shoes those guys are wearing, like, Jesus, like, how the fuck did they play in these? Even when you get to the 80s, see, like the first. The first Air Jordans, even those would be crazy to play in now they're. Because these guys are flying coach because they were wearing certain equipment that didn't.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Drinking beer.

[Bill Simmons]

You weren't doing Eurostep in like fucking Converses in 1973 because your knee would have gone the other direction and probably gone in the first row. So you kind of had to be careful with the equipment. And now the equipment's so good. These guys feel like I can go full speed, stop, do two hop steps, then crash into somebody. And I don't know, I really genuinely feel like the game is way more violent and faster. But if you mention this to anybody who played in the league in the 70s and 80s, like, if I said that Daddy Johnson on his show, he'd be so fucking mad because they just get insulted. Like, how dare you? We were playing so hard back then, it's like, I don't know what to tell you. We have the clips.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I have never missed ESPN Sports Science for a single second before this conversation. Do you remember Sports Science? I have never missed that segment in my sports media diet until right now. Because I want to hear when he stepped with his right foot, it's like 14 elephants going 40 miles an hour. And then he turns like an F1 car and around a turn, and then when he steps with his left foot, it is like the force of a gorilla pounding on a rock as hard as it can. And then he turns like a fish.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds like you should bring the show back.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the other point to this combo. The ultimate zag. We've had injuries this whole time, and this year is no different than any other year. And you go back and you look at all the stars. Like our guy Jalen when he was playing, all the guys who got hurt during that era, Grant Hill, Chris Webber, you Go on through. Like, a lot of guys either had careers cut short. Tracy McGrady, a ton of knee injuries. You go back to the 80s. Like Ralph Sampson, who is basically wembanyama. Before Wembanyama. And he took a hard fall in the Boston Garden, was never the same and had knee injuries after that. So we've had injuries all the way through. But. But to me, it's. I spend more time watching basketball now being scared for the guys than I can ever remember before. Like, there's plays, you're watching real time going, oh, no. Oh, God. Or like even like the landing, like people, these three point shots where they're just constantly landing on someone's feet. Like Tatum the other day. I don't know. It's a Molotov cocktail of injuries. So one other thing I had. I had a couple other small things for you. Jacoby, this one's just for you, okay? You know Derek White, can we all agree shaving his head? Great move. Right?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Trey Young, follow suit, bro.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I have a different guy for you.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You're in the building. Trey Young. Oh, I'll guess who it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, who should be. Who's the next Derek Waite? Suggs, it's time. Suggs.

[Dave Jacoby]

Wow.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Was that what you're going to say?

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I knew it. I knew it. I love Suggs so much.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? In my notes, when Sugg shave his head.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Listen, you know, our friend and colleague here, Kirk Goldsberry is. He's a big Manu guy and Manu just sort of like worked it.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. That was an Argentinian thing, though.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, and he came off the bench too, so. Trae Young could take two things, I guess, from our Manu.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's time for sucks. Here's another one I got for you. If he. If you gave David Griffin true serum and you said, yo, dude, if you had to do it over again, would you have traded Zion last summer, kept Brandon Ingram and kept Dyson Daniels and tried to basically sell as high as you possibly could on Zion over doing this whole roller coaster ride another year, would he say, yeah, shit, I should have traded him?

[Dave Jacoby]

Kirk, it's getting close. I will say yes. I will say yes to that because it appears like here we are one more year and I think for me this was the breaking point year for Zion. I don't know where Griff is, but Dyson Daniels looks like a real player. Larry Nance, as we mentioned earlier, and by the way, don't forget the picks. So if you had traded Zion, you would have gotten Something probably pretty significant back at that moment. Remember the playing games? He was playing really well, and then he got hurt there, too, against the Lakers. I'd say yes, because it looks like at this point, the other thing. And I'd say to David Griffin, he's done a great job drafting Herb Jones, Trey Murphy, These are great. These are nice players he's put together there.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Dyson Daniels.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, he could do a great job with whatever they brought back, either in draft assets or talent. I think. So. I'd say yes. I think that's a good point. And I wish I wasn't saying yes because Zion is my favorite NBA player to watch. When he's out there being Zion and doing all those aforementioned dangerous moves, putting more torque on his one leg than anybody else in human history ever has. Could you imagine the sports science segment on that?

[Bill Simmons]

Jacoby, now, your favorite player is Scoot Henderson. My son said today we were talking about Zion, and he was like, thank God we didn't get those boxes, because the Zion rookie, the prism boxes, and they were super high because there was so much Zion hype. And I was telling them, like, we gotta wait. The prices are too high. They'll dip down. And then Zion, A couple good things happened. They dipped up, and we just kind of forgot about it. And now it's like, you know, now I said to him, probably the same thing's gonna happen with Wembanyama. Just be relieved we never got the boxes. I'm just. I'm just feeding Jacoby.

[Dave Jacoby]

This is unnecessary.

[Bill Simmons]

Jacoby, are you back in? Because he had one good game against Utah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Two good games. Two good games.

[Dave Jacoby]

Sacramento.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Here's the thing is my criticism of the Victor LouisManyama shot diet started two weeks ago, and now it's become mainstream. It's like your favorite band that blew up. So now it's like, yeah, it's like, not even fun. Everyone's doing it. So now it's like, all right, everybody have fun. You can play with my toys. I'll make new toys. That's how I feel.

[Bill Simmons]

Kirk, do you like Jacoby's theory that Wemby is basically like a kid who's been homeschooled and given candy for dinner every night and has never been scolded or yelled at or even, like, had a hand raised?

[Dave Jacoby]

No, I do not like this theory at all. I think he remains the best prospect in pro basketball. I will meet him halfway, though. If there's something that really irritates me about the young man's development, it's his Jump shot and his tendency to lean on it too much when it's more Westbrook than Curry. And I feel like nobody can stop this guy inside of eight feet that I've seen. And I feel like he needs to do that and the team needs to help him get there more often. He's shooting 25% from three. His jump shot in the mid range is one of the worst in the league, efficiency wise. This is not unusual for a young potential superstar, but it's frustrating when that young potential superstar has the potential to be the most dominant interior player of his era. And so every time we're spending more and more time away from the basket, we're not getting towards his true calling, which is to be, I think, the best player near the hoop. Bill.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Kirk. Kirk, I want to ask you a question, right. Because I know you know this more than almost anybody on the planet is we always talk about what he's shooting from three, what percentage he is or what he did that night. Right. But you know better than anybody on the planet that not all three pointers are created equal. You know what I mean? There's the difference between like a catch and shoot. Swing, swing, corner, three. When you're buck naked and when you're 6 foot 8, 7 foot 6, and you're taking step backs with like a point guard on you or you're shooting from 28ft instead of toes on the line. Like, it's not just that he's such a, thus far this season, a poor three point shooter, albeit he has shot well last two games. It's, it's, it's the, it's not what you do, it's how you do it. It's the threes that he's getting that I find so frustrating as well. It's like you're seven foot six. Why are you taking Dame Lillard type threes? Why?

[Dave Jacoby]

Right. Particularly in a team environment where those shots were outlawed for years when there were guys on the roster that probably could do that. So, you know, we were the, we were the last team to sort of let our players dribble into threes when I was around there. So I agree with this. And again, his shot diet is something that needs to be talked about and improved and optimized. And for me, yeah, you're right. This dude should probably start with catch and shoot threes and shots near the basketball hoop. These off the dribble euro step, when they work, it looks great. When his, when his step back works, I should say. But it doesn't work enough. And It's. It's hurting the team's offensive efficiency overall. So I think this team, if it wants to compete, they need to optimize their. Their star player.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, in the rewatchables, we subscribe to a one for them, one for them, one for them,. One for them, one for us philosophy. Jacoby benefited from one from us when we did Project X definition of a one for us. I think with Wemby, they should have a one for them, one for us philosophy. It's like you can shoot that three every once in a while, but that's going to be a one for you. We need to near the basket. How about little eight footers? How about like that little baseline bank shot you have? How about studying some Kareem Skyhook stuff? Because guess what? Nobody will ever be able to block it from seven feet. Just kind of vacillate between those two worlds. I never think he should never shoot more than one third of his shots should be threes. If it's anything higher than that, all it does is take him away from around the basket, the rebounding. I've talked about this stuff a million things. Last thing I have for you, Jacobs. Jovich today had the worst in game broken nose I've seen in a while. Did you see it?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No, I did not see it, but I really.

[Bill Simmons]

And he was walking off and his nose was like doing his. He was one of those. Felt bad. Thoughty you had how many broken noses playing hoops?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I've had a lot of broken noses. Not all of them playing hoops, but most of them playing hoops. It's getting to the point where my nose is just. It's a collection of cartilage that doesn't speak to each other anymore. So when I break it playing hoops, I stop the game for like 15 seconds and people are like, your nose is broken. I was like, no, it was like that before. And I just continue to play. I just continue to play.

[Bill Simmons]

Kirk, any last predictions before we go? NBA season through three weeks. I wonder the Cavs lose.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, when did the Cavs lose? Is the right one to finish on? I think this team goes at least 160 if you look at their schedule. I don't want to jinx it, but if I'm just playing the numbers, I think they can go. I think they play your team in Boston coming up, right?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

That.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, I think they. That's going to be one of the.

[Bill Simmons]

Big games at Philly tomorrow.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Home Chicago, home Charlotte. And then they'd be going for 16 and O against Boston.

[Dave Jacoby]

And so I think only one team has done more than 15 and oh, and that was the warriors that did 24. 0 Grantland era.

[Bill Simmons]

Warriors.

[Dave Jacoby]

Durant. Oh, no, it was the. Right after Grant. It was the 15, 16 warriors.

[Bill Simmons]

There's similarities to that warriors team that I know a bunch of people have brought up, but new coach comes in, there's good nucleus in place. They were pretty good last year, but not. Something was missing. And now it all kind of fell into place.

[Dave Jacoby]

Incredible shooting, jump shooting and then high defensive potential with, with their, with their big. So I, I like that analogy. I'm not ready to give them more your status.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but you know what I mean. Yeah, nobody's going to. But that 2015 warriors team was 30 to 1 to win the title before the year and ended up going 67 and 15. And even as they were winning playoff rounds, people were like, eh, eh, can you win a title this way? And I feel like we'll be doing that with the Cavs as they keep going. What were you, Stage Cubs.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Do you think it would be good for the Cavs to lose a game just to sort of end this? I do.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting. I. To me, it's like they have a real chance if Porzingis is out until mid December range that they could make a real run trying to be the one seed, which I think is incredibly valuable. As you know, I care about having a Game 7 at home. It's one of my crazy takes that I planted my flag on over the years. Game Sevens at home. Good. But I think they could do it because this Celtics team, it's pretty vulnerable game to game. Like I went to the Brooklyn game Friday that they almost lost. They end up beating in Brooklyn and OT Atlanta tonight. Like, they don't, they don't have a lot of size. You can get to the rim on them without Porzingis and with Horford at this different point in his career where they're just trying to keep him ready for April, May, June. Like, they're, they're, they're not as like, deep as I think people seem to think they are. They're not the same team as last year. At least right now they will be. But I think Cleveland could get some distance on them. That's going to be a tough spot for the Celtics next week if they're not 100% healthy. Because this Cavs team I'm watching, they seem incredibly, incredibly confident in who they are and they really have good chemistry. They've figured out the Mitchell Garland into the game Stuff, at least so far. Right. I think Mitchell's taken. He's given up real shots this season.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

So Garland is their clutch, Garland is their crunch time guy, Donovan's their main time guy. And then Dig goes to Garland for French time and it's been great. And Evan Mobley's been better. Ty Jerome's been great. They're fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Classic, right? That. They. He. He was on the Warriors a couple years ago and Kerr loved him and. And then Atkinson just kind of filed it away and then took him to Cleveland and you know, he's like a six man of the year candidate.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. So that's the spot they need to really get production from is the wing. In between their incredible front court and their incredible backcourt, can they find some Dean Wade magic, some Karris Lavert magic, some Accorro Magic and Ty Jerome? So they, they found some there. I think they're the real deal. I'm not ready to say they're going to beat your Celtics, but I could definitely see him being undefeated going into that game. And it's in Boston, right? Bill? I think that game next week, it's in Boston.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm taking the Cavs completely seriously. I think they're, I think they're legit. Good. I don't think, I don't think there's any bullshit with this. I think it's real as me starting.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

To look back at the Kenny Atkinson Brooklyn Nets era because they were cause that like Jared Allen was there. Charis Laverteur now currently on the Cavs. They had the best D'Angelo Russell ever. He's never gonna return to that. And they had like Jared Dudley and they had these like bench celebrations. They felt like a true great chemistry, good vibes, young vibrant team that was coming together and winning games and going to the playoffs, which sort of enticed the Kyrie KD invasion which sort of ended that era. And I'm starting to look back on it being like huh. Like huh.

[Bill Simmons]

I always sat there a really well.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Coach, really good coach. Yeah, maybe they're a really, really good coach that sort of tried to upgrade through superstars and it completely backfired for a million different reasons. But you think back at Kenny Atkinson as a Nets head coach and they're not going to build a statue outside of Barclays. But like when you revisit those years, you can sort of see the seeds of this success.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think their over under is right now for wins for the season? If you had to guess. 58 on FanDuel what do you think it is, Jacobs?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I'm going to go 62. 62.

[Bill Simmons]

That's 55, 55 and a half right now.

[Dave Jacoby]

55 and a half. What's Boston?

[Bill Simmons]

Boston's off because of, I think because they played tonight. Nobody that played tonight is in there. What do you think The Lakers are.

[Dave Jacoby]

43 and a half, 46 and a half.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing. There's still some value with some of this stuff.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Get broke, they're going to run.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, Bronnie, a couple G league games could probably help them. All right, Kurt Goldsberry, Dave Jacoby, it was a Grantland reunion podcast. Great to see you guys. Thanks for staying up with me tonight. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsberry and Jacoby. Thanks to Steve Cerriti and Kyle Creighton as well. Don't forget, you can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. I will see you on Thursday. I don't have on the wayside must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplionma.org or call 8003275050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny.