← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Embiid’s Return, Houston’s Weird Weekend, Joker’s Swoon, and a Knicks Gut Check With Zach Lowe
02:00:21
Loading summary
Transcript417 lines
- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. With playoffs around the corner, now's a good time to create a tournament of your own. Compete to see who can predict the best playoff series or put your own basketball skills to the test. And the prize? A crisp Michelob Ultra Plus. They're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary open to US residence 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026 multiple entry periods. See official rules@mcglob ultra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes. And. Bill Simmons Podcast we are live on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. Zach Lowe's podcast is coming Tuesdays and Thursdays. I have a new rewatchables coming tomorrow. We are doing Ghostbusters, a really famous gigantic movie. Don't forget about Legata, our new scripted narrative series as well. From the ringer. We're coming the Lakers Rockets game isn't even over yet. Zach Lowe the Rockets laid one on the depleted Lakers today and I'm going to start here. No NBA team has ever come back from 3, 0.
- [01:55]
B
It's true. It's true. And even you're right that the game is still going on. I don't even think the 2026 rockets can blow this one. I think we're safe. I think we're safe going live right now. A 25 point lead with three minutes left. I don't think any catastrophe can befall them at this point. But you remember the last time a team got close to coming back from a 30 deficit. You probably remember it very, very well and it didn't happen. Yeah, it almost happened. And then Jason sprained his ankle and then that was it.
- [02:23]
A
I went to game seven and Tatum sprained his ankle right in front of us and.
- [02:27]
B
Oh, that's the meme. That's sad. Bill. That's that game.
- [02:31]
A
I think that was sad. Bill. Oh, what a. Yeah, that was the. That started sad. Bill. All right, the Kevin Millar theory. Don't let us get one. Don't let us get two from the 2004 ALCAs. So the Rockets, they've got one now. They're coming to LA. I think it's. They spread it out. So I think it's a Wednesday night game. So I assume we'll have Reeves next Wednesday.
- [02:56]
B
Two Wednesdays from now.
- [02:57]
A
No. This Wednesday three day I assume we'll have Reeves, no Luca. I've heard Luca is not even that are not even close yet. Did the Rockets show you anything in this game today that made you think a. They're starting to incorporate strategy into the series. And. And. And maybe some things that might work against an old weird Lakers team. Because I felt like they had a couple things going tonight.
- [03:26]
B
I mean thing number one was they actually made Luke Kennard play defense and didn't let him just hang out. I know it took four games.
- [03:34]
A
Unbelievable.
- [03:35]
B
They didn't let him hang out off the ball the time Ahmed Thompson attacked him and they just like he was on Tar Eason. Tar Eason even just blew by him at one point. Just gave Tar Eason the ball. Jabari Smith Hun in a switch and this has kind of been fun without KD. It's been fun to watch guys like Jabari Smith Jr get to do a little bit more and really stretch their wings. That. That was one. And just they're. They have this kind of defensive gear in them when they have their best defenders on the floor. They can get a lot of steals. Even Reed shepherd who's getting hunted. I mean LeBron is just being so mean to Reed shepherd just constantly. But he had a couple steals today. They picked LeBron. They had a couple. They. They picked them at half court a couple times. They can create a lot of turnovers. Lakers had 20 something turnovers the last time I checked. And yeah, so that strategically that would be the main one.
- [04:19]
A
I noticed those two things. I also noticed they were a little more physical and relentless with LeBron trying to put some miles on him. Reed shepherd came into the game wasn't going well. Well. But he, he stayed with it which I cause I felt, I really felt like his. There was a fork in the road moment potentially for him where it was like wow, could this series be so damaging that it might actually be hard for him to recover? But I thought he gained momentum as this game went along. And then last but not least, the leadership of Kevin Durant on the bench.
- [04:57]
B
Would you care to elaborate on that?
- [04:59]
A
Well, he wasn't there for game three because he was getting round the clock treatment on his sprained ankle and couldn't come out because it's 24 hour. I don't know they were talking about. He was running on a treadmill underwater. I don't believe any sort of Durant treatment story, but I don't know why. We still don't have an answer why he wasn't out there for Game three. There was some weird stuff about how he was. Actually, they did the walk into the arena before Game three. That was on Social, I think, for the Rockets and for the NBA. And then that clip was taken down the next day. Just a lot of weirdness.
- [05:37]
B
Okay. I didn't. I was not aware.
- [05:39]
A
Okay. There was some. Some people saying. The teammates saying, well, we hadn't. We don't know what's going on with him. And then apparently it's all fine now. And. And it was always fine, and we weren't supposed to doubt it at all that he didn't sit on the bench.
- [05:53]
B
I mean, it struck me as odd that he wasn't out there on the bench.
- [05:57]
A
That's.
- [05:57]
B
That normally an injured player is. Is there of that status? It did strike me as odd. And, yeah, I mean, odd's a good word. I still don't know when this injury happened. Like, when in Game two, I guess. What did it happen? But I will say this, like, for all the weirdness you want to ascribe to Kevin Durant, and there's been quite a lot, the one constant of this guy's career is he's a gamer. He plays. He loves to play. He played a ton of games this year. He played in the Finals.
- [06:28]
A
He played second in minutes.
- [06:29]
B
He played in the finals against the Raptors when maybe he shouldn't have, and it cost him a year of his career. Like, I like the guy plays. And so I don't. I don't know when this injury happened. And maybe, like, to your point, if they're actually going to make a run at this, and we're like, a long way from there, given how bad they looked in the first three games, they're going to need Kevin Durant. They can't win three more games without Kevin Durant.
- [06:53]
A
It was weird. You and I know a lot of NBA people, and it was hard to get a straight answer for what happened on Friday night. And we still don't totally know.
- [07:02]
B
It was. It was a little strange. Yeah, I expect. I expected him. It was funny. I was watching a game and only sometime in the second or third quarter did it. Did it, like, jog in my brain. Like, oh, it's weird that I haven't seen any shots of Kevin Durant on the bench. Like, normally that's a thing that just happens when a star player is out. They just cut to them. What are they wearing? What's their reaction? Fred Van Vliet is all over the television.
- [07:23]
A
And, And.
- [07:23]
B
And you Know, just. But they won tonight and they're still winning. They are still ahead, Bill. They have not collides. Down to 19 with a minute and 14 seconds left.
- [07:32]
A
Oh, well. On fanduel right now. And this may change. The Lakers are minus 8:50 to win the series safe.
- [07:40]
B
Which safe bet again. No one's ever done it
- [07:44]
A
seems. Seems fair. Couple Houston things. Oh, so the lakers today after three, they're down 25 points and they were 2 for 13 from three in game three. They were 12 for 29 from three in game three. They Were also down by six points with 30 seconds left and somehow forced overtime, which was like one of the only times in the history of the NBA that's happened. Do you think this series should be 2:2 or do you think 3:1 is the right score for the series?
- [08:13]
B
I think 3:1 is pretty representative. The first two games, I mean, they were close. They were close. Ish. But the Lakers felt like the more prepared and the better team the whole time. And by the way, considering that, yeah, Durant has missed what, three of the four games. Luka and Reeves have missed all of them. And it just. This feels like a correct score of the series to me. And I realized like Katie's was three, Fred Van Vliet's out for the season. Steven Adams, like the Rockets are missing lots of guys. It's totally fair. But I just expected better in those. In those first two games and particularly
- [08:44]
A
the one Durant played, you know who they're also missing? IO Dasunmu. Yeah, well, and I went on, I did a Google. Cause I had a vague memory of the Rockets kicking the tires with him and went down a tower. Easton rabbit hole. Do you remember this?
- [09:00]
B
No. Inform me.
- [09:02]
A
Joe Cali reported on it. Who? I think he covers them for the Sun Times. The Bulls.
- [09:06]
B
Yeah, he's a Bulls guy. Bulls reporter.
- [09:09]
A
Yeah. Rockets would refuse to discuss Tar Eason for IO now. IO's going to be a UFA at the end of the year and Tyreson's an RFA at the end of the year. So I could see, like you could make the case he had more value. It's just an interesting what if because I would say IO even before what we've seen in this series was probably more what the Rockets needed than Tar Eason, who's been really up and down and has been incredibly erratic as a shooter and is a little redundant with some of the other guys. They have interesting trade.
- [09:43]
B
I mean, or non trade. I mean, I don't know that that's true, but it would not surprise me at all if that were true, that the Rockets shut down that talk because they do value their own guys very highly. They value two way guys very highly. I mean, I was a two way guy, but Tar Eason has obviously much more size. The restricted versus the unrestricted thing. I also just wonder if, you know, the Rockets, once the injuries started to mount up and the teams above them look so good, just kind of were like, it's going to be, I mean, Rafael Stone said something like this and has since walked it back. But just like the idea that this is not the year for us to make like big splashy enough, that that's a big splashy move, but we're not rocking the boat because it's just, it's not going to happen for us this year.
- [10:26]
A
I understand that logic, but then at the same time, you're giving Duran a two year extension for $90 million when he's gonna be 38 next year. That would be the, would be the counter.
- [10:36]
B
Well, I mean that's, it's been the, it's been the weird dissonance of their team. Like it was why I never got the. Oh, it's a. This. The phrase blessing in disguise was thrown around much too cavalierly when Fred Van Vliet got hurt. Like, oh, we'll learn about Reed shepherd and Aman Thompson and what they can do. I'm like, that's awesome. You're trying to win the championship this year. That's why you get Kevin Durant, who has next year, and then a player option in 27, 28 if they, I
- [11:03]
A
think to report he's picking that up.
- [11:04]
B
Wait, if they lose this series in five games, let's just say game five goes badly and they lose. Is he on the Rockets next year?
- [11:13]
A
Had it in my notes. You know, I would lean no.
- [11:16]
B
I'm just going to come out and say I would say I would lean no.
- [11:19]
A
So I was a hard no. Because I think whatever happened Friday, we, we won't fully find out until, as Brian Curtis calls it, the now they tell us story that happens after the year. That's probably gonna happen with the Red Sox tomorrow. Cause the Red Sox, who have a robot GM who's put together a terrible roster and has made bad trades, decided it was everybody else's fault and they fired Alex Cora, who won the 2018 title with us and five of his coaches. It was his fault.
- [11:47]
B
At least you didn't get swept in a doubleheader by the Colorado Rockies by a combined score of 6 to 1.
- [11:53]
A
Why am I complaining about my baseball team to you? But
- [11:58]
B
it's been. It's been a great season.
- [11:59]
A
I'm having a lot of fun. So. So on Friday. So I was in the mindset of, obviously, Katie's out now. This is. There's too much smoke here. I don't trust this. Plus the. Whatever happened All Star weekend with the burner, it seems like he'll be moving on, which, by the way, would be the fourth time he'd be moving on. When you count 2019 warriors. Not. Not the happiest last season there. Nets. Can't say that was the good chip Lollipop Suns. Can't say that was lollipop.
- [12:33]
B
First good ship lollipop reference I've heard
- [12:35]
A
quite a long time. Thank you. And now this one. The problem is, where does it go if you. If I always say this exercise when I have friends in my life who are like, well, they obviously have trade them. I'm like, all right, go on spot track. Go on whatever that fan trade site is and try to find me the team. Be like, oh, maybe he'll go home to Washington. Okay, for who? They have two giant contracts and a bunch of small ones. Who are they getting? Like, just go through all the rosters and I did find a team. Zach, I.
- [13:07]
B
First of all, I feel bad for your friends if you're just lecturing them about trade machine mechanics. They're just trying to have fun and you're like, you know, phone track, get on spot track. You know what the second apron is like. Okay, I was just.
- [13:19]
A
I don't know.
- [13:19]
B
I was just trying to have a little fun. Can I say two. The names of two teams, and I'll bet one of them is your team.
- [13:26]
A
Okay. Go Heat.
- [13:28]
B
Knicks.
- [13:29]
A
No, had neither. He can't. He can't go to the Knicks. I'm going to veto that.
- [13:35]
B
Okay, well, here's.
- [13:36]
A
No, I just. I just think that's a bad idea for everybody involved.
- [13:39]
B
Well, here's all I'm. All I'm saying is this. This is. This playoffs already has been a great reminder that the postseason stress tests your roster like no other environment. Like nothing compared to the regular season. If you have a weakness, if you have any chemistry issues, if you have anything, it's naked in the playoffs. They expose you naked. And that's what's happening to the Nuggets in a lot of ways right now, which we talk about later. So, like, whatever happens in the playoffs to a bunch of these teams, there's going to be realizations that they learn and moves that they make because of how the playoffs exposes them a little bit. So those, that's the only thing I'll say about that.
- [14:16]
A
That's fair. I like the Miami idea. As you know, I am all in on LeBron going to Golden State next year. Okay, can I, can I have Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson join him?
- [14:33]
B
Let's go.
- [14:33]
A
Full Expendables, Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson to Golden State. Butler's expiring to Houston. We'll throw Clint Capella and whatever else makes the small salaries make it work to Dallas. Maybe they get a second round pick. Maybe Houston gets something and we end up with.
- [14:50]
B
You get something? Yeah, something.
- [14:52]
A
Houston gets something, they'll get a future pick, a swap, whatever. And Golden State ends up with LeBron, Curry, Durant, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Al Horford. Let's fucking go. The expendables are here. USA Dream Team 2024. Run it back. Even I would be rooting for this team. Who's not? First of all, every game they play, every game they play, sell out. Couldn't be harder to get tickets. Half the fans rooting for the warriors wherever we go. Steve Kirk comes back now. Two more years for him and we're off. We're ready to go, is we?
- [15:29]
B
We already had the warriors tried to trade for Kevin Durant a couple last season. And him being like, nah, that was two teams ago.
- [15:36]
A
Now, now he's, now he's ready to reconsider. He should have gone. Maybe his mistake was he should have
- [15:42]
B
done it for entertainment purposes. It sounds great. I like that, like Wemby and the Thunder just demand. Everyone's coming together. All the old guys, like, we, we just, we can't beat them apart. We don't like these young guys. They're not ready. Blah, blah, blah. Let's, let's all come together.
- [15:58]
A
Kevin Durant, he's been unhappy in a lot of places, you know where he was never unhappy. Defending our country with his American stars, with LeBron James and Steph Curry. He fit right in with those guys.
- [16:11]
B
He did.
- [16:11]
A
Let's put him in Golden State. I'm down with it. Let's bring Clay back. Clay's having a rough week. I know you don't follow this stuff, but had a breakup.
- [16:18]
B
Oh, I got it.
- [16:20]
A
Okay, you're following that.
- [16:21]
B
Well, first, I, I, I have a lot of friends whose consumption of the NBA is entirely through that lens. So I got a lot of Megan the Step the Stallion. Megan the Stallion, Yes. A lot of Klay Thompson texts from those people. And I was like, I. I don't have time. There's eight games this weekend. I don't have time to really dive into it. But she seemed to put them on blast, as the kids say. I don't know what happened. I have no comment.
- [16:45]
A
There was some blasting.
- [16:46]
B
I hope everybody's happy. I hope everyone is happy and that's it. I hope Rocco the dog, if he's still alive, is happy. I just hope everyone's doing okay.
- [16:54]
A
Well, we talk about San Antonio in the next segment, and they were jaw dropping in the second half of that Portland game. OKC has been jaw dropping for two straight years. There's no way to solve putting together a super team to beat either of those teams unless you do the Expendables. I mean, and Curry's like, Curry can, I think, be really good once a week at this point. If we're talking about during the course of a season, he can. He can't do what he did five years ago anymore, but I think once a week. And if he's at. And if you play him 60 games and kind of pace him for the playoffs, I think LeBron's the same way. Durant loves playing big minutes. Klay Thompson back home. I don't know.
- [17:35]
B
Damian Lillard, Bay Area Oakland legend Damian Lillard has a pretty tradable salary. You want to find a way to get him involved in this.
- [17:43]
A
Didn't even think of him. Do we have room in the Expendables for him? I don't know.
- [17:47]
B
Absolutely.
- [17:48]
A
I actually thought we'd see Dame Lillard this weekend. They got. They kind of wet my appetite with that one.
- [17:53]
B
Yeah. Can we have a moratorium on the eyes emoji? Tweets teams just. You just can't tweet like Damian Lillard doing stuff and eyes emoji and then be like, well, no, it's just a tweet. Just a cool video of our guy Dame.
- [18:07]
A
So what would you get rid of first? The eyes emoji or. Anytime I foul anyone and I'm any player in the league, I want my team to review it.
- [18:16]
B
No, I like. I like that because it. It's again, like, I like when players are exposed for. I like when anyone is exposed for ridiculous behavior. So I like that. And I will say my favorite motion, though, is the flopping motion. I like how dramatic and. And broad it is, and I love when entire benches make it. Sometimes you make it with two hands. I. I like that one too.
- [18:36]
A
Quick on Durant might have to save this for.
- [18:43]
B
Yeah, it's early.
- [18:43]
A
We're not there yet. Well, you know, he was pretty high in my pyramid at one point, and he's been going backwards over the last couple years, basically based on how this decade has gone and some of the things that have happened with his team. Because sometimes with the pyramid, you're projecting, oh, it's going to keep going a certain way, and then you kind of go underneath where you thought, and then you have to reevaluate. He is definitely dropped backward. Do you think that's fair?
- [19:16]
B
I mean, and also, a couple of, like, other players like Jokic have. Have soared upwards. So naturally someone has to drop backwards. Steph keeps, you know, putting up Steph numbers every year. And by the way, you mentioned, like, the only reason I mentioned Nixon, Heat. Not the only reason is just because you mentioned Oklahoma City and San Antonio and how can we possibly compete with these teams?
- [19:36]
A
So get out of the conference.
- [19:37]
B
Yeah. Step one to do it is get me the hell over to the east, and at least I only gotta be one of them.
- [19:41]
A
Right. The thing with that, it's funny how people talk about KD because his career's been so long. They just kind of forget stuff like how good he was on okc. And those OKC teams were really successful. They made the finals. They had three conference finals losses. He was an MVP. He finished second in MVP three times. They, you know, they unfortunately blew the last two against the 2014 spurs, and they blew the last three to the warriors in 2016. And I thought those teams were good enough to win the title, and they didn't get it done. But you go to the warriors where everybody says that, you know, he was carried by those guys and he was fucking awesome those three years. I mean, in the playoffs, 48 games, including with the year he got hurt. It's 30 a game and 48 playoff games, 37 and five. He was the best guy on those teams, and those teams had Steph Curry. I mean, I don't.
- [20:36]
B
I don't think you need to do even do this. He's.
- [20:38]
A
We all feel like I need to do it because I think people are forgetting now that how good he was on the Warriors.
- [20:45]
B
He won Finals MVP both years. There was like, in. In the first one.
- [20:48]
A
This is why I want to bring this up.
- [20:50]
B
In the first one where he makes the dagger from the left wing over LeBron, there was a whole conversation of, like, has he taken the best player in the world belt from LeBron? And that was like a whole thing that happened.
- [21:00]
A
And I Think he was taking it in 2019 when he got hurt and then in 21 with the foot on the line against Milwaukee, what he did that series was great. The problem is this decade. Swept By Boston in 22, lost to Denver in six, in 23, lost the last two, swept in 24, didn't make the playoffs last year, almost swept this year, but they won tonight. And you know that's put a little bit of a black cloud over everything. It's a really tough career. I think out of all the careers like in the top 30, the toughest ones to really evaluate are him and Wilt. Wilt, you can go all over the place with it. You could make a real case he was one of the five best guys ever. And you can use all these stats and all these things that he did. And then Durant is going to what is he going to be second in points by the time he retires. All these playoff games, all these minutes, the fact that he's going to play for 20 years, so Finals MVP twice, all these really strong cases for him and yet it really only peaked when he was on this unbelievable warriors team. So I see both sides of the argument. I do not think he has helped his cause the last couple years. I will say that.
- [22:09]
B
And also pretty underrated or depending on how you consume the NBA properly rated like very good defender for most of his career. Yeah, well like just, just a, like a pretty like made in a lab all around superstar player. Could play with anybody, could play with any kind of other co star. Just like nothing, nothing bad to say about, about his game at all.
- [22:30]
A
Maybe this summer we should just do like an hour and a half. Kdpod sure. We might have to just completely deep dive it because I think there's really not been a career like this. Okay. Celtic Sixers. Yeah. Celtics were unbelievable when Peyton Pritchard scores 28 plus points the last two years they're 15 and 0.
- [22:52]
B
It felt like he had 65 points tonight. At one point I was just like has he just made 12 baskets in a row? Is this ever going to stop?
- [22:58]
A
It was Kobe's 81 point game but he only had 32 points. They're 24 and one when he scores 25 plus points. That's not where I'm going to start. We finished. We taped a big chunk of this pod before, right before the Celtic Sixers game. Cause there's a window. We want to get stuff done so we can get it up faster. We came out of the room and the game had started and I Saw Embiid on the court, and as a Celtic fan, I was like, oh, my God, this is great. I was excited that he was playing.
- [23:29]
B
Wow.
- [23:31]
A
No reflection on Embiid as a player. I just think to introduce him into the series halfway through, when he hasn't played, when he's rusty, combined with how good I thought the Sixers played on Friday night, and I really thought they found something with the smaller lineups and the defensive identity they had. I thought the Celtics, like, really pulled it out of their ass in that game. They had to make a couple huge shots. Philly easily could have won it. I thought Maxey was really comfortable attacking them, and you could just feel it today. I thought Embiid, by no fault of his own, completely discombobulated them, and he was minus 25. And it felt that way.
- [24:08]
B
Yeah, I. I honestly, I'm. I'm surprised he came back. I did. I just. I mean, it's. It's appendicitis or whatever it is. It's a. It's a big deal. And he came back pretty. Pretty early from it. I thought he looked pretty good, all things considered. Like. Like, sure, you know, earlier this season, he would. He wasn't dunking at all, and he had an explosive dunk. He had a couple explosive defensive rotations. All of his pet shots seemed to just roll around and go out or rattle in and out. Like, you just so close but not going in. And. Yeah, you're right. That they had. You know, I thought. It's funny. I watched game three, and then I checked the box score the next morning. Maxi was 12 for 31, I think, and it did not. It felt much more efficient than that to me because I just felt like the Celtics toggled between a bunch of different pick and roll coverages over the courses of game two and three, and he figured out a way to kind of solve all of them and in different ways. Getting to the rim, pulling up for three, passing. And it. It felt like an even better game than 12 for 31 to me. And that, because that game three felt scary for Boston, it felt very winnable for Philly. And Pritchard made a huge three. Tatum made a tough three. Like, it was a tough, tough game. This was never a tough game. And when the Celtics make threes like this, they're very hard to beat.
- [25:21]
A
The problem, and this is almost like a basketball IQ test. Cause, yeah, he had point, he had points, he had good stats. But defensively, he really hurts them against Boston because it's just. You can always pull him into screens and stuff and get threes that you want. He does the offensive rebounding, I think, is a problem when he's out there, and I just think they seem way slower and more kind of lumbering versus the team Friday night. I thought the Celtics were really lucky to win Friday night, and if Embiid didn't play today, I. I genuinely felt like the Celtics might lose tonight unless they had, like, a Pritchard game or something like that. The thing is, Pritchard hadn't done that yet, and he's usually good for that once or twice a series, but I don't know, I just thought. I thought it screwed them up a little bit. Like, Uber, I don't think made a field goal. I thought Maxi. It took him. It felt like it took him an hour just to be like, hey, is it okay if I can run some of the offense, too? And they were just constantly trying to work him in. I also thought that Bona. I thought the Bona Drummond combo was fairly effective, and I thought Paul George has been really good for him all series. I think he's gone toe to toe with Brown and Tatum in a lot of ways. And if there's a bright spot for the Sixers in this series, it's that I think they've resuscitated him as, like, I don't think he's untradeable.
- [26:43]
B
I mean, he had a huge second half of game three, and tonight, um, he was, you know, 16 points on six to 13, but made all his threes. He had a couple takes against Jalen Brown. Like, he had an ISO against Jalen Brown where he kind of bullied him and. And shot him toward the basket. I was like, ooh, he's been settling for tough fadeaways a lot, and the Celtics will live with that even if it's over Derrick White or, like, on a switch against Peyton Pritchard. They're fine with that. They're not going to double him. But that one was like, whoa, that's. That looks like Paul George right there. Can I. Like, here's the.
- [27:13]
A
I thought his defense was good, too, For. For the most part, especially in the first half. I mean, I think he's been resuscitated as. It's not inconceivable that you could get rid of him, though.
- [27:23]
B
That's a great feeling, right when you're Sixers. Like, he's playing well now we can trade him. This is like.
- [27:27]
A
This is like, well, but that's.
- [27:29]
B
We can't even enjoy him playing well. It's already we're just like, oh, he's playing well, great. Call somebody.
- [27:36]
A
That's, that's kind of how you have to think though when you have him and Embiid, right? You have a hundred million, $110million of guys that you don't know how reliable they're going to be.
- [27:46]
B
So would you have sat and beat, Would you have just said, you know what, you're just out for the series.
- [27:51]
A
I wouldn't have played him tonight. I would have waited for him for game five and I wanted to. I would have, I personally would have waited for game four because I would have been really, really encouraged by how my team looked in game three especially. Cause like Edgecomb, his threes now and the three losses, he's 0 for 16 from three. Right. He couldn't hit a three on Friday and they were still in that game. I don't know. I just, I thought going smaller against the Celtics was really working in their favor because the Celtics were in this, they played Vuch like 30 plus minutes in game three. A lot of Vuch. I didn't really love 15 minutes of Vuch Muchledge 30 in that game. And I thought over and over again they were using and abusing him in the screens and getting threes over him and just figure out ways to take advantage of him being out there. He's just too slow coming out on the screens. But with the beat out there, all of a sudden now the Celtics could just play all their centers, get a lot of, you know, they have 18 fouls with those three guys. Even when Garza was out there. It's like Garza's going to shoot over Embiid every time he gets it, which I think he did once made one three. Yeah, I was, yeah, I know they're not going to say Embiid don't play but I, I, I wonder if he gave Nick Nurse true serum, would he have been happy with it?
- [29:05]
B
So like your, your game plan would have been let's wait till our backs are against the wall. If we lose and it's 3:1, then all bets are off. Wild card bring them out. But let's give this current team tonight to try to even up this series after their performance. I get that. I just think the, the, the, the mileage on the maxi do everything offense is, is just going to expire against a really good team and they just need another, another layer of, of offense. But integrating that other layer was a little, you know, slipshod for parts, a little like little wonky for parts of today.
- [29:42]
A
So in the Friday game, The Celtics
- [29:45]
B
were
- [29:48]
A
44% shooting and 43% from three. It's pretty good. Today they made 24 threes.
- [29:57]
B
That's a lot.
- [29:58]
A
45%. And I actually thought, I thought they got great shots the entire game. It was actually one of those games. They scored 1:28. They easily could add 150. They missed a bunch of free throws in the first half. The Jays were terrible in the first half and then the third quarter just became the Jays and I thought really complimented each other well. And then Pritchard, who's in the running for weirdest career of the decade where he plays four solid years where I don't even think he averaged eight points a game. Maybe like eight and a half.
- [30:34]
B
He wanted to be traded, remember?
- [30:36]
A
Yeah. And I gotta say, a lot of the Celtic fans were like, this guy's good. When this guy plays, he's going to be good if he can ever get a chance. He just, he's always buried behind guards. Last year, sixth man of the year this year, averaging 17 a game. And it's just perfect for the team they have because they do so much of this one on one attacks, one on one attack stuff. And he's really great at it. He's really like, you saw the whole tricks and everything today. Plus Reggie Miller's there. They're going to have to redo his contract this summer, I think. And I actually think they're allowed to extend it. But he's I think one of the best contracts in the league, if not the best. Seven million a year. Right.
- [31:18]
B
He is extended. It looks like according to spotrack or Spot Track or however you say it, he is extension eligible this summer. Yeah. He's got two more guaranteed years after this. 7.7 and 8.3.
- [31:28]
A
Right.
- [31:29]
B
I'd have to look back and refamiliarize myself with how much they're allowed to add on the extension. What the percentage is. It's. It's probably one of those ones where it's like it might not even be worth it for him to do it.
- [31:41]
A
Austin Reeves style, better off, like to wait. But I also think he wants to stay in Boston. They're going to have, they're going to have an interesting off season no matter what happens. Well, he's, they're got money to spend. You know, there have trade exceptions.
- [31:54]
B
He's just a really good player. Like I remember. I, I picked him as six man of the year last year. There was like a Malik Beasley, Peyton Pritchard. Kind of debate. And I was just like, yeah, just a better basketball player than Malik Beasley.
- [32:05]
A
He's.
- [32:05]
B
He defends, he passes, he's tough, he's physical. He could score in different kind. He's just a really good player. Offensive rebounding, you'll sneak in and see all the, like, wow, Pritchard has four offensive rebounds. Today.
- [32:17]
A
I sadly took Beasley. I think I was trying too hard not to be a homer and swung too far the other way with Beasley. So the other thing. I don't want to talk about Tatum every podcast, even though I secretly do.
- [32:31]
B
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, you do.
- [32:34]
A
I just can't believe how good he looks on some of these drives. First of all, he played 42 minutes on Friday, which is nuts. If you had told me two months ago, hey, in game three, Jason Tatum will play 42 minutes in a regular playoff game. Like, well, that sounds insane. We're going to do that. Definitely did it. He was explosive. His three point looks great now. He's got a nice snap on it and it's interesting. He's getting better. Jalen seems like he's having a harder time getting to his spots than he's had all season. And I don't know if it's cause Philly has him scouted really well, but this is a guy who was scoring on like pretty easily on people like Lou Dort during the season in this Philly series. It's just a lot of like, feels like he's like a battering ram trying to just like get to his spots and bang into people and swing his arms. Like he got. I think he had two offensive fouls today, but it just. Either they're scouting him great or he's starting to wear down. But I, that was. That worried me a little bit.
- [33:36]
B
I'm. I'm not worried.
- [33:38]
A
Okay.
- [33:38]
B
I'm just. I mean, it's. They're clearly a better basketball team with the two of them. It's going to go up and down a little bit about who scores the most points, who has the ball the most, all that kind of stuff. There's been games like where Jalen. I thought. I can't remember which game it was, but there was one game where they started hunting. They've. They're hunting Maxi all the time, but they, down the stretch, they made it clear, like, Jalen, you're going to be the guy to hunt Maxi because you're just having a better night. I, I'm not, I'm not worried about it, but I, I mean, the stat that jumps out Today is the 11 assists that Tatum had. I thought his playmaking was AW and they're just making Boston's offense is both beautiful and simple at the same time and sometimes within the same possession. They're just those guys just get the matchup. They draw help and they're just making the simple reads and Tatum was just spraying it out and you know, just really, I mean again, 11 dimes.
- [34:30]
A
That's a lot. Dream situation is they clinch game five Tuesday Knicks Atlanta goes seven and they just get to put their feet up and relax and do the whole thing. I really wish Baylor Shireman would play a little bit more would be my one critique. I think he's been lights out when he's coming into these games and really additive and I wish he would get more minutes Quick mailbag stuff before we take a break. Adam writes in the IO Dasumu 43 point game feels eerily similar to Jalen Brunson's coming out party post Luke injury in the 2022 Utah series. Are there some parallels for Is he starting to bump his free agent salary up? He isn't like an unrestricted free agent this year. No. Minnesota can go over whatever to try to get him, but could you see a Jalen Brunson, Knick, somebody going big on him and giving him like 110 million for four years or something?
- [35:33]
B
I could. I mean it the I'm not sure any of the cap room teams fit, but that doesn't necessarily prevent things like that from happening. I mean I could because that's we're in a world where that's not like max money. It's not. It's not. It's.
- [35:48]
A
It's a lot.
- [35:49]
B
But he's probably worth like 20 plus. I mean that that's probably his value for sure. I think it for sure his value is above that. The Brunson thing is like well he like could he be the number one option on an elite NBA offense? I'm not. I'm not sure I'm ready to go there because Brunson has the kind of physical but he's a really good player. I was really good. It's again like we talk about it later but just I don't know what the Bulls were like. What's the rush?
- [36:15]
A
We did dive into that.
- [36:16]
B
We have a good player. We don't want him. Okay.
- [36:19]
A
I was thinking the markets between 20 and 25. But then you put the free agent craziness tax on it and maybe it does get to like 110 for four years. Maybe somebody's like, this is Derek White. This is like the 2000 and 20s version of Derek White. Nikhil Alexander Walker, one of these guys that like, let's, let's invest in this dude. And we think he could be the third best guy on a really good team. And by the way, if they thought that, I can't really disagree. I think he could be the lead guard on a really good team.
- [36:52]
B
The lead guard?
- [36:53]
A
Yeah. Like the best guard you have. Not necessarily your number one scorer, not your number one playmaker, but like, you
- [37:00]
B
need a real apex playmaker then.
- [37:02]
A
Yeah, but I think he could be your best two way guard on a good team.
- [37:07]
B
That's that. I don't disagree. He's really good.
- [37:11]
A
Rob from Philly wants to know if the Ewing theory committee was dispatched to Atlanta to figure out whether Trey Young and the Hawks the eligibility of that. We did send some people down to Atlanta and they rejected Trey's application. They decided he was not good enough. Oh, yeah. It's a rare situation because four years ago you might have said so, but nobody was like, wow, what are the Hawks going to do now without Trey Young? And that's like.
- [37:39]
B
It was, it was too predictable.
- [37:41]
A
Yeah.
- [37:41]
B
Can I, can I just like the Ewing theory? I, I just, it's, it's. I'm a little angry lately about it because it's now so pervasive that when Francisco Lindor, my daughter's favorite player, got hurt earlier this week, I got multiple texts from people because he's been struggling this season. Is the Ewing theory in play for Francisco Lindor? No. Screw you people. Don't bombard me with that kind of stuff.
- [38:09]
A
Well, Dave, do you want it? Did you win a World Series with Francisco Lindor? Then he's eligible.
- [38:13]
B
We did not.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah, there you go. Somebody named Duran once had a long Durant email that ends with the question, is Kevin Durant the Michael Jordan of good stats, bad team? Guys, this is my point of bringing up the Durant stuff earlier. Like, I'm telling you, people are losing their mind with this Durant thing. These are the emails I'm getting.
- [38:36]
B
I mean, yeah, I'm.
- [38:37]
A
The. The answer is no.
- [38:39]
B
No. The answer's definitely no. Most of his teams have been not bad. They've been out of bad teams.
- [38:46]
A
Kyle wants to know. Kyle wants to know, is CJ just Dame with worse PR or is Dame CJ with better pr?
- [39:00]
B
They're both excellent basketball players. Damian Loads had a better career. Is his PR good? I don't know. This is pr. Very good. I mean, this thing is cool. The watch thing is cool. He's made a bunch of big shots. Um, CJ's awesome.
- [39:13]
A
If CJ can beat the Knicks, these two of the next three and. And parade into the next round and try to go toe to toe with the Celtics, it's not a closed discussion.
- [39:24]
B
I just can't. I mean, you have to sit back for a second. I mean, he is, like, murdering the Knicks in crunch time. It's like. Like he's Michael Jordan. It's like every play CJ and get out of the way. And you have to sit back and remember, like, he was on the Wizards for, like, most of the season. He was just over in Washington doing stuff, and now he's like, the biggest clutch force in the playoffs so far.
- [39:50]
A
It's almost like a actor that was on, I don't know, one of those Fire shows on NBC. New York. Fire? Is that a show? Probably Chicago Fire.
- [40:02]
B
Chicago Fire is definitely a show.
- [40:04]
A
He's like a famous movie actor, but now it's like, oh, he's the number three guy on Chicago Fire. This is too bad. And now all of a sudd, he's in, you know, a Christopher Nolan movie, and you're like, oh, this. Wow. Cj, he's back. Last question. You and. You and Zach. This from Ryan from Milwaukee. You and Zach both gush over Jokic all season long. While he might be one of the best offensive players of all time, he's a con on defense, forgets to shoot how to shoot threes in the playoffs, and he only has one ring. Give me Duncan over him. And it's not close. Did.
- [40:34]
B
Did any. Did any of us put him above Tim Duncan? I mean, you and I are like president of the. Tim Duncan is.
- [40:40]
A
That's another one that as the years pass, people are starting to forget about Tim Duncan, too. There was this great clip. He turned 50, by the way. Happy birthday, Tim Duncan.
- [40:49]
B
That's great.
- [40:50]
A
And there's this Twitter account called NBA History, and they ran this clip of Duncan CONGR. DUNCAN. And LeBron congratulated Duncan after the 07 finals. LeBron's like a baby. He's like 22, and he's like, hey, great series. And Duncan says to him, yo, I love what a good teammate you are. Keep it up. Keep doing what you're doing. Like, he doesn't praise him about how well he's playing. He's specifically praises him on being a teammate and his connection with everybody else. And to me, that's Tim Duncan in a Nutshell. And that's why I always ride for the guy. It wasn't about the stats. He could have averaged 25 and 12 if he wanted to. He was very happy. 20 and 10 and being an awesome teammate.
- [41:28]
B
He sounds like a mentally healthy youth sports parent, basically. Like,
- [41:33]
A
I'm so proud of you. Here's this little mini trophy. All right, so we think Celtics win in five.
- [41:39]
B
Yeah.
- [41:41]
A
What about Lakers?
- [41:43]
B
I'm going to give the Rockets another game and say it gets a little frisky. And Lakers win in six.
- [41:49]
A
Okay. I, I not only agree, I actually, I think it's six or seven. I thought LeBron looked a little, A little gamey. You forget, he's. I don't know if you know this, but he's 41 years old.
- [42:05]
B
You are.
- [42:06]
A
I, I mean, he looked a little gamey tonight.
- [42:09]
B
We do have to have every. And I, I, he deserves it. He deserves it. Absolutely deserves it. But we do. It's like, I think it's in the broadcast partners contract that there needs to be a two minute soliloquy about LeBron's fitness and how much attention he pays to his body every game. It's just like, it doesn't matter if you do it every game. It's just. All right, it's the 8 minute bar of the second quarter. Grant, Grant Hill, take the floor. Is yours.
- [42:34]
A
I want people to start doing that about me. It's like Bill Simmons, 25 Years now, columns and podcasts. You know, he walks every day, saunas, eats really healthy. Like this guy. It's amazing how he takes care of himself. Tell people out there to do that for me.
- [42:51]
B
Okay, I'll give it a shot.
- [42:53]
A
So you're more depressed about the Mets than I'm depressed about the Red Sox.
- [42:56]
B
It sounds like it's a devastating turn of events.
- [43:01]
A
Fantasy had like multiple tweets today. He's, he's like, he turns into the Unabomber every once in a while and there's these long missives about the Mets.
- [43:09]
B
He's having a rough, I mean, it's been, it's a disaster. It's an absolute. Like this has. The Mets have been, have like the Vince Coleman fireworks season, the Bobby Bonier contract. There's like a lot of just embarrassing Mets stuff. This has the potential to just be. They have. They. I think I saw that they've scored two or fewer runs in half their games this season. They have the highest payroll in Major League Baseball.
- [43:36]
A
Jesus. Baseball's different than basketball because in basketball, if you spend money on guys, it usually works out. Yeah, it's like, it's like, oh, we've signed Giannis. He's 32. This is probably going to work out. In baseball, you sign somebody and their career is over like the next day and you're like, we stole you $280 million, by the way. You can't hit anymore.
- [44:00]
B
Longest, longest into any podcast we've ever done before. Giannis was mentioned and mentioned as a baseball related aside, no less.
- [44:07]
A
Yeah, true Giannis. Lot of time to talk about him this summer. All right, we're going to take a break. We're going to come back, we're going to talk about an incredible spurs comeback. What's going on with the Nuggets, the Knicks Game four, all the other basketball storylines is next. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA post season is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. Fanduel the best place to bet the teams players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Duluth Trading Co. Whether it's the 19th inning, the 12th quarter or the 5th and a half shift shift over time. Not going anywhere. Which is why Duluth builds hard working gear for folks who work their butts off their surefire arsenal of work. Shirts are built for function and comfort, giving a big foam middle finger to all that is futile. And the new no quit utility shirt is equipped with cooling and wicking tech. Oh boy. To keep you comfortable, all while being tough enough to take down your most daunting tasks. When it's marathon work session versus you, give no quits. Shop at a Duluth store near you or@duluth trading.com all right, we just hopped in a time machine and went backwards to six o' clock Eastern time to talk about the other six games in round one. Coming off Spurs Blazers a terrifying San Antonio spurs performance. Zach Lowe this is the one that you're watching the second half. And if you're every other playoff team, the hairs on your arms are going up.
- [46:09]
B
Yeah. As we're recording this, The Blazers have 32 points in the second half of an NBA basketball game, which by Cavs Raptor standards earlier in the day is actually not so bad. Lavish but. But an absolutely terrifying Wemby defensive performance in the second half. And then you throw in like oh dear and Fox. Hey, I remember that guy. All star Dear and Fox. Just making step back threes over everybod spurs are figuring out counters to all the weird defensive schemes the Blazers are using. But Wemby, Wemby was just everywhere. And the Blaze look like the Blazers are not a good offensive team. They're not a good shooting team, they're a horrendous turnover team. So like it's not as if they did this to the, you know, number one or two offense of the NBA, but it was legitimately like, oh my
- [46:51]
A
God, they're on the road. That counts for something.
- [46:54]
B
Yeah.
- [46:55]
A
Also game three, when Scoot. I was really having a moment on Friday night with Scoot taking it to Dylan Harper. And then we learned a valuable lesson. You don't talk shit to Dylan Harper. And then he put in a facsimile 2000 game four finals Kobe kind of arrival performance. Kobe's a 10 out of 10 on that scale. Dylan Harper was like a seven. But it was like, hey, here's what the future's gonna look like when I'm putting this all together and I look like this all the time. So that was game three. That was scary. No Wemby in that game. Game four, Wemby and the spurs just the only other team that can do this is OKC. Right. That could do a 60 to 30 second half of a playoff game on the road.
- [47:39]
B
And they've been. Yeah, I mean Oklahoma City has a gear of frenzy that almost nobody can reach. The spurs, it just looks different because they don't quite have the perimeter of frenzy and all the crazy wing. They've got some great defensive wings and guards, but they have the one guy in the middle who is just everywhere and impacting every play and in four places at once. And you just see everybody looking around like, where am I? So I can't shoot this. I gotta shoot. It's crazy.
- [48:02]
A
So this is a sweep if he doesn't get hurt in game two, I think.
- [48:06]
B
I mean they were winning when he got hurt, but yeah, they were winning in the first half today. They didn't win. So yeah, I think, I mean I picked spurs in five. I gave the Blazers a game one way or another. They're a tenacious defensive team that can cause some problems, but yeah, this feels like it Feels like we're heading toward an appropriate spurs in five.
- [48:23]
A
I think this. That series was a win for the Blazers. They, you know, we know what the limitations are, but when you think about was a good Drew Holiday series, like, kind of validating a pretty weird trade, at least for the short term. They wanted to bring in a veteran guy, then he was okay, I think. So this is, I wouldn't say, the greatest matchup for him. And, you know, they're feisty. There's some pieces here, and I can't wait until they have a coach that makes $425,000 next year. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens when Gabe Kaplan is the head coach of the Trailblazers. Yeah, the Fox thing, the big things for the weekend, other than Wemby coming back and looking healthy, was Harper in game three. And then Fox kind of reminding people, like, yeah, this is in here. I've been. Been scaling it back, just being just kind of here to help out, facilitate, get some shots out. But for the most part, that's. That's lurking in there somewhere. We'll see if it lurks in an OKC series. Can we talk about Dylan Harper really fast for game three? Cause we haven't done a. Neither of us have done a podcast since then.
- [49:26]
B
I would love to. That was a. I texted some people I know at the spurs after that game. I said, that was. That was a real effing playoff. Playoff win. Game three. That was like a big boy playoff win without Wemby.
- [49:37]
A
It was an awesome game. Scoot going at him, and then Harper basically, from that moment on, just taking his soul out of his body. Still a win for the series for Scoot. But Harper was so good, and you could just see all the pieces where we're going to go. And I'm not really positive where we're going to go with him, because when he hits the three pointer, he basically has every single offensive weapon you need. He can. He can do stutter step, get in the lane, Brunson style. He can just get to the rim. He can play with somebody on his body. He can step back and hit threes and. And then he can also kick back out to people with really, like, precise passes already. Like, he's a really, really, really advanced, advanced, advanced guard. One of the best, I think, rookie guards that we've seen come into the league that I can remember the last 10, 15 years. Right. Who else jumps to mind? Like, who at 19 and 20, where you could really see, like, some special shit?
- [50:34]
B
Not Very many people. And yeah, special like that was a game without Wemby, that they needed other people to step up. And he and Castle were both unbelievable. Yeah. First of all, it helps to move up in the lottery three years in a row. Second of all, it's been one of the pleasures of this series. Like the Blazers have a lot of kind of power perimeter players, including one of the all time great, like power hybrid point guards and Drew Holiday. And it's been so fun to watch Castle and Harper be like, oh, we're just kind of babies in this league compared to you. But we're going to, we have that too. We're going to take it right at you over and over again. It's been so fun. Yeah.
- [51:05]
A
And Castle, who was the unsung hero on, on game three at 33, but Harper, Harper was just such, such a dramatic second half entrance by Harper to that game that it kind of overshadowed everything else. But Castle's been great. Pretty omnipresent. Even. That play that led to the double technical with Denny started because Denny was really physical with him dribbling up the ball, and Castle finally got tired of it, took him to the basket, did the whole thing. Blazers home game. No T shirts. They were shooting used T shirts during timeouts and in the stands. I don't know if you knew about that. They'd gone to some goodwill, grabbed some
- [51:43]
B
stuff, but pretty worn armpit stains. Like, what are we talking about?
- [51:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, just, you know, not. Not holes in them or anything, but definitely had been worn. I'd still think win for the Blazers. They've rekindled some trade value for some guys and I'm interested to see what they do this summer. Okay. Cavs, Raptors. That also happened today.
- [52:03]
B
It did.
- [52:06]
A
This was an homage to what, what year? 2006, 2005, 2003.
- [52:14]
B
I mean, I looked at the score multiple times in the second quarter and had to remind myself that it was the second quarter. So you pick a year from a Long, Long, an NBA far, far away.04
- [52:25]
A
Raptors shoot 32% and win. They had 21 offensive rebounds and they had 36 free throw attempts. And it seemed like they blew the game. And then the Cavs had a very strange stretch. They're up five, they give up two free throws. They missed five straight shots in the last two minutes. And all of a sudden the Raptors are winning and all of a sudden the game's over. And it was a. It was kind of your worst fears for a Mitchell Harding game. Right?
- [52:53]
B
I mean, I don't even want to put the blame on Mitchell Harden. Nobody covered themselves in glory in this game but Jared Allen and Evan Mobley to combine for 11 points on 5 of 16 shooting. When you're being guarded, at least at the start of the game by a combination of RJ Barrett, who they've cross matched onto a big guy, and Jakob Poeltl, who can kind of sometimes stay on the floor at a couple of nice takes in this game. Like, I understand that the Raptors, they bring in Murray Boyles off the bench and when he's the only quote, unquote, big man on the floor with Scotty Barnes, they're very switchable, they're very hard to play against. But, like, that's not the entire game. Yeah. And remember the third quarter started and they very Cleveland very clearly came out, was like, hey, Evan, face up against Jakob Hurdle if he's guarding you and score some baskets. And he got two. And I was like, all right, great. Then they switched the matchup. They put Purdle onto or they put Pearl onto, I don't know. They switched the matchup one way or another. They put Pearl somewhere else and they put RJ Barrett on Mobley, I think. Yeah. And then we just never heard from either of those guys again. Jared Allen had a great defensive game, had some blocks, had some rib protection. But, like, we can clown Mitchell and Harden for shooting 12 of 38 combined. But the big guys deserve a little. A little bit of criticism, too.
- [54:04]
A
Mitchell 6 for 24. Kobe homage. Harden had six turnovers in the first half. And I tweeted this. I was so disappointed. Barkley didn't make a joke about the Cavs being in Toronto all weekend, Friday night, Saturday night, and then playing a 1pm game. And Harden just looked like he had woken up a half hour before. I had the same question marks next to Mobley. He had eight points, nine rebounds, and three assists. And you just forget he's out there for stretches. I'm starting to wonder if this is just who he is. We kept like factoring in this bump and the ceiling for him and all the potential of what he could be. And oh, wait, maybe he's really a five. Maybe he shouldn't play next to Allen. Well, what happens if he starts making threes? That's going to change him. What we don't see from him is the guys get out of my ways. I'm just going to wreak havoc here for an hour. Right. We need this game. We're up 2:1. Nobody can get anything going. Just I'm kicking it into fifth gear, and I'm going to destroy everybody for about a half hour here. And he just doesn't do it ever.
- [55:10]
B
And this is the game you win if you're a serious NBA contender on the road. Tough game, tough atmosphere. Tough, but, like, limited Toronto team. Not a. Not a great team. You win this game and go up 31 and set yourself up for the 41 win, which should be. Which. Which, you know, I picked Cavs in seven, but, like, it was sitting there for them. Toronto did not come out like a blaze of glory. And this is a game you win. And, yeah, I mean, to your point, Cleveland all of a sudden, like, they'll go. They'll put Allen and Mobley together at the start of each. Each half, and then we'll never see them play together again. And we didn't see Mobley for, like, most of the fourth quarter. Jared Allen was playing so well.
- [55:46]
A
Yeah.
- [55:46]
B
And I think they're caught in this existential dilemma of, like, all right, well, do we want to play them together more? Well, that means we have to increase their minutes. We don't love the spacing. It's getting a little funky. I've been mobiles 3 kind of disappears for a week at a time then. Okay, if we want to go small, who. Who do we play when we're small? Do we want to play more guards? Do we want to play more of our forwards like Tyson and Strus and Wade, all of whom were okay today? And then Sam Merrill, who had been a zero for the entire series, came in and damn near swung the entire game and the entire series for Cleveland with his gravity. And he actually held up okay defensively, even against Ingram. But it's like they all of a sudden feel like they're torn between identities in some ways. And it's not. This should, I mean, like, credit the Raptors. Their defense was sensational. Murray Boyles is one of these stories of the last month and a half of the NBA season and the playoffs so far. And they made it really hard on the Cabs, and the Cabs did not have a lot of answers.
- [56:44]
A
Yeah, Murray Boyles gets three stars for his game today and the fact that they can play small with him with a rookie and be okay. But it may, like, even big picture, let's say the Cavs get through this series and they play Boston down the road. Boston's just going to go small with better players than Toronto has, you know, because I think this is a blueprint.
- [57:05]
B
Now,
- [57:07]
A
you mentioned that they were split between two Teams, basically, I would almost say they're split between two teams, but then they're also split between a second version of those two teams where the Mitchell and Harden stuff at the end of games where it just feels like they're both 30ft from the basket looking at each other, and then one of them has the ball and the other one just kind of stands there and watches. It's a little weird. There's some Mitchell stuff I want to get into in a second, but I just. They leave me cold. I don't think their defense is good enough either. And in this, you know, The Raptors shoot 32% today, but with the shots that we're getting at the end of games, basically they're playing Shed out there as a fifth guy. So it's Scotty Barnes just trying to beat people off the dribble. He's doing these spin things, then trying to kick out. They didn't really have anybody who could create a good shot. I didn't feel like. And they still won. I didn't like any of the shots Toronto got.
- [58:03]
B
I mean, their best offense for a good portion of the fourth quarter was Scotty Barnes. Just bring the ball up as fast as you can and see what happens. And what happened was like people kind of got out of his way sometimes in his way, and he went through them. I thought he was awesome. I think Toronto's defense is just taking away so much of the paint and leaving Mitchell and Harden to be like, all right, we're just going to kind of run pick and roll out here with our guards to see if we can get RJ Barrett switched onto us and then see what happens. And then we'll hoist a step back three because the paint is like a no fly zone. But you know, we're recording this before 6 or Celtics, so we'll see what happens in that game. But I. Depending on how that game goes, like, that was kind of an underwhelming game. 3 win on the road for the Celtics. I guess no playoff went on the road against a guy like Maxi who's busting every scheme you throw at him is. Is like ho hum. But the east is like Detroit's down two one. You know, Cleveland two two. Boston is where they are. The Knicks are two two. Like it's Orlando gonna win the East. Like what's happening in the East.
- [59:03]
A
I know. It is like a unprepared for anything moment. So Darko said this about Scotty after the game. I expect more from Scottie, the way he's playing he's 60% of a player that he's going to be in two to three years. Scotty's going to be one of the best players in the league and he's already one of the best players in the league. So he saved it at the end, but I don't think he's one of the best players in the league. I think he's a really interesting player. And you could see today, like the last piece, that's for him to become like the number one guy on an awesome team that has a chance to win the title. I think he's going to have to have the ball and like, what is his, what's his finishing move going to be? And he might not have one. He might just be almost like what Iguodala was and some other guys we've seen, like guys who are way better off being your second best guy or your third best guy for them. He has to be the best guy. But I don't see it offensively. I don't know how he jumps up. What's in there, in your opinion for him?
- [60:01]
B
I think it's the bully ball and the playmaking. And look, we get, we could debate, like, what's the bet? One of the best players in the league. Like, I had him, I had him third team, all NBA and then bumped him off when Luka and Cade became eligible. So that puts you somewhere around the 20th best player in the NBA. Something like that. And it has been interesting in this series to see how willing the Cavs are. You know, they'll start with Mobley on him and then they'll go with Tyson or Streuss or Wade or whatever. And I keep waiting for him to just dominate those matchups. And, and the Raptor spacing makes it hard for anybody to do that. And he has stretches where he does, but I keep waiting for the moment where he's going to force Cleveland to put their centers or whatever, the only Mobley or Allen on him and put their. Put those other guys somewhere else. And that hasn't really happened yet. And it's just because of the jump shot, right? I mean, we all know they're going to try to go under every screen, force him to shoot jumpers. But I mean, I'm not going to sit here. Dude. Played 42 minutes, had 23, nine and six. I'm, I'm, I'm all right. And four stocks. I'm good with that.
- [61:04]
A
And here's the other thing I would say they play really fucking hard and they're really Competitive. And I like that. I like them a little more than maybe I did a week ago. I still can't imagine they would win a round or even two rounds. I still think Cleveland should win this series. But if I'm Cleveland, if I'm a coach on the team or I own the team or I'm in the front office, I'm a little nervous now that we're playing this team. That exposes a lot of warts that we have, right? Oh, you're going small. Well, here's Moby to punish that. Well, Moby's not doing that. Oh, you're super competitive and going after every 50, 50 ball and pounding us like we're going to fight back with our version of that. Well, maybe we don't have that. And they haven't. The Raptors haven't even had the game yet where they just got lucky and hit a bunch of threes, you know, so if I come up, I don't
- [61:55]
B
know if the Raptors have that game,
- [61:56]
A
but every team has that game. Once in a playoff series, there's always a game where somebody goes like 1435 or something.
- [62:03]
B
Could you go be the Walter? Hit one? Just a shot of some kind.
- [62:07]
A
We've had to see Grady Dick at some point. But, yeah, if I'm the. If I'm on the cab side, I'm a little nervous because I have some fears. There's some guys on my team that have wilted in big situations. We don't have to name them.
- [62:21]
B
No. Really?
- [62:22]
A
Yeah. We have some really bad playoff losses in our recent pass.
- [62:26]
B
I gotta do some Googling.
- [62:27]
A
I would just start to get. I would be getting a tiny bit nervous here. Can we do the Donovan Mitchell playoff history really fast?
- [62:33]
B
I love the Donovan Mitchell playoff history. Go ahead.
- [62:35]
A
Lost to Houston round two as a rookie, then lost to them round one. The second year, blew a 31 lead to 2020. Denver in the bubble. Beat a really young Memphis team, then lost to the Clippers in 21 and six after Kawhi left the famous Terrence Mann game. Just an inexplicable loss. One of the most inexplicable losses of the decade. Lost to Dallas in 6 and 22. No Luca, the first, I think three games. That was Brunson's arrival. And they just kind of cratered as it went along. And it became clear somebody was going to get traded. Turned out both guys got traded. Mitchell goes to the Cavs. They lose to the Knicks in five. The next year, they beat Orlando in seven in a series that it seemed like they were going to blow. And then they showed up for game seven, got smoked by Boston in five the next year last year swept Miami and then lost to Indian five in a game where they had more excuses than games one. After the series ended well, Mobile missed a game, Garland was hurt and Indiana just took their lunch in that series.
- [63:41]
B
They, they com in that series just to, just to add on to it. Like remember DeAndre Hunter got hurt. I think he gave one of that series on a Matheran chase down block and they were like. I mean like they were mad about that he didn't get called for a flagrant. I think if I remember correctly or they wanted to. I can't remember what exactly what it was. And then they're like, oh man, what a big loss for DeAndre Hunter. And I'm like, really? Because it seems like you guys can't wait to get rid of DeAndre right now. Now that he's hurt. It's like the biggest loss in the history of playoff basketball. I didn't like the way they handled adversity in that Indiana series when it hit them.
- [64:12]
A
Well, if they lose this series, I. Every guy in the team, the coach, everybody is I think on the table. I'm prepared for every single outcome. Right. Is there one keeper that you would say, well they won't trade him. I'm prepared for anything Now I would
- [64:29]
B
say Mitchell but you know, Mitchell has a little agency in that. In that whole discussion as well. With just the one guaranteed year left on his. His deal. I'm not going there yet. They should win the series. They should win the series. They should be. They did it. But credit Toronto, man. I, I thought this would be a tough series for Cleveland and it's going to be a tough series for Cleveland.
- [64:49]
A
This is officially a who are. Who are the tough guys on our team? Let's go like who wants this? Who's ready to bang bodies? Who's ready to. I think Streuss. I liked how he's been playing. I think Jarrett Allen has it in him. We'll see with Mobley Harden, you never know. Mitchell, we've seen it and he's his playoff. What is he, 28 a game for his career in the playoffs?
- [65:11]
B
That's what I was going to say when you went through the team results. I mean there's been. He's got a couple of dud playoff series individually. There's also been some series, particularly with Cleveland where it's been like Donovan Mitchell. It is any. Is anyone else coming with me? Am I just going to have to do this all by myself. Including that Orlando one they got it out in seven is postseason individual play is pretty unimpeachable. Like everyone's going to have a dud now and then. Even the very greatest players in the world like Jokic is having now. But it's been pretty by and large very good.
- [65:42]
A
Yeah, the only thing you could ding him is the. Well, the results. But also 31% from three the last five post seasons and a lot of stuff like today where he just couldn't ever really get it going. And I thought with the kind of team the Raptors have is actually like the kind of team you would want to throw at the Cavs. And I think the Celtics have a version of that too. Just long wings to put on those guys and really bother them and. And the ability to play small or big depending on what you do. Well, we'll see. I already think this series is a win for the Raptors. Just even I had Cavs in six. I bet the Cavs win game five. My prediction would still be that the Cavs would go and win in Toronto. But it's. I just didn't like how the Cavs look today.
- [66:26]
B
Can I. Can I say a couple other things about this game?
- [66:28]
A
Yeah.
- [66:29]
B
How about Scotty Barnes just going to the foul line and knocking them all down late in the game and 8 second violation gets thrown in there. Like if we're going to just going to have a complete offensive disappearance, might as well throw an 8 second violation. I'm not sure I've ever seen that exact kind of 8 second violation where Jamal Shed seemed to know that it was coming and is like what if I just jump in front of this guy right now and he jumped in front of Donovan Mitchell and sure enough, 8 second violation.
- [66:54]
A
That's not the first time Mitchell's had one of those either. Okay, I'm gonna save. I'll save The Nuggets. Wanna do some magic? Magic Pistons.
- [67:06]
B
Sure, let's go.
- [67:08]
A
This is. I've said this.
- [67:10]
B
I got notes. Look, I got notes. I got notes on every series ready to go.
- [67:12]
A
I've said this to you before. This is a great one seed case for my 2, 2, 3 idea yet again. Detroit just on the ropes. Really. After being awesome all season, Orlando couldn't have been more disappointing this season. And then ended the season in like a borderline disgraceful way. And now they're in the driver's seat at 2:1. But the number one thing I wrote down and I bolded it, I Felt this way after game one. I felt this way halfway through Game two. And then the Pistons played one awesome quarter in Game two. Other than that, these teams look dead even to me. And even the net ratings are 105 and 104. Offense, defense for Orlando and the opposite for Detroit. All their stats are near the same. It just feels like if they play 20 games, I feel like 18 of them are going to be close. And I honestly don't know who's going to win this series. I would not bet on it. I would not make a prediction for it. I do not know what's going to happen.
- [68:13]
B
I think it's also a reminder that sometimes the conventional wisdom about the playoffs being different than the regular season is actually spot on. It turns out everything that we were worried about about the Pistons and Detroit fans yelled and screamed about how they had 60 wins and all this. It turns out your lack of shooting is a problem. It turns out the lack of secondary creation around Kate is a problem. And it turns out that Jalen Duran is just getting flat outplayed by Wendell Carter Jr. And looks just frazzled on both ends of the floor, which is fine. He's 22 or 23. Whatever he is, he's not fine.
- [68:45]
A
It's not fine. I voted for him. Second team on B A. I shouldn't have this many voter regrets already and I have like five.
- [68:52]
B
Well, okay. Fine is, I guess, fine. By fine I would mean it's not entirely shocking to me that the playoffs have proven much harder for him than the regular season.
- [69:00]
A
But like, yeah, but it's worrisome that Orlando has pretty easily figured out how to nullify him in this series.
- [69:08]
B
Yeah, his face up game just isn't working. I mean, Wendell Carter hit him with the, with the Shay, like this guy, this guy the other day couldn't believe
- [69:14]
A
that the whole thing with Duran is he carries himself like he's the biggest, baddest guy in the bar. And Wendell Carter's like, let's go outside and fight right now. I'm right here. Wendell Carter's been a big winner, I think of the playoffs so far.
- [69:26]
B
The, the inevitable Stu Goga conflagration already happened and it was interesting to see J.B. bickerstaff kind of get fed up with both Stu's antics. And he yanked Durin early in either the third or I think the third quarter of that game after a couple of defensive mistakes and just like sat him for a long time. Like they're, they took that game obviously seriously and Orlando took it from him and Paolo and Franz made couple dagger threes. You don't expect those guys to dagger threes. That was kind of fun.
- [69:52]
A
Did not expect that. Well, the trade deadline which we were concerned that they didn't do anything major. It feels like it's continuing to haunt them. Kobe White, desunmu who.
- [70:02]
B
Oh my God.
- [70:03]
A
I mean out of all the teams that could have trumped Minnesota's measly offer of four second round picks and our bus lottery pick for Desunmu, I'm pretty sure Detroit could have topped that one in about five seconds, right? Maybe four seconds. Three seconds. Like Jenkins crashed back to earth.
- [70:22]
B
Yeah, that's another one. He played seven minutes in game.
- [70:26]
A
Thompson, his stats are okay, but especially in the last six minutes of these games. And I would say the same for his brother. It he's on the court dribbling around and it almost seems like he doesn't know where the basket is. He'll be just going this way and the basket's over here or backwards and just has wants no part of shooting ever. And Cade's been awesome. I mean if you said before the series Cade's gonna have a 315 and eight through. Through three games, you, you would think, oh, Detroit then Detroit. Are they going for a sweep? What's going to happen? They just don't, they don't have any other crunch time offense. It's every fear we had about the Pistons all regular season when we were doing the. Yeah. Butts.
- [71:05]
B
And look, let's just be clear, like the Magic are good. This is a tough matchup for Detroit. It's not like they're. I don't think they're like choking or. This is a sort of like condemnation of their entire team construction. They're a young team with some obvious offensive warts playing a team that probably had a higher over under number than they did before the season. And so like it's not entirely shocking that this has proven a tough series for them. Everything you said about a star Thompson is true. And they just, you know, I thought Orlando Detroit went at Duncan Robinson with a little bit more precision and intent in that game and they need Duncan Robinson's offense on the floor to sort of loosen everything up. And they just need Durham to play better like during being a 10.5 rebound. Like okay, defensive player is there. They're going to lose this round if that's. If that is what he ends up averaging.
- [71:52]
A
Yeah, you need the wild card guy too, you know, like for the Lakers. And we're taping this before Game four. But Canard has been something of a wild card guy for them, right? You need that. Oh, I did like IO last night. Wow. 27 in the second half. We weren't expecting that. I don't know who Detroit's Wow. We weren't expecting that guy is. It's probably Duncan Robinson, but they just never got the heat checking thing. I mean, it's a really interesting point you made about regular season versus playoffs, because it's funny, you have in the East, Orlando, a team that we were all disgusted by multiple points this year and really frustrated by. And then you have Minnesota, who was the classic, kept roping us in then making us feel stupid, and they'd be like, I'm out of Minnesota. Then they'd look awesome again. They'd rope you back in. And we just did the zigzag with them for six months. And then if you just watch them in the playoffs, you would think, was Jaden McDaniels the runner up to Wemby for defensive player of the year, or was it Gobert? Were the. Did those guys finish two and three? And you see their bench and you just see the, the physicality and the intensity that they have. And I promise you, they did not look like that very often during this season. But they do now.
- [73:07]
B
They absolutely do. And I don't know if you want to talk about that series now, but
- [73:12]
A
let's go to a break. We'll do a break, we'll come back and it's going to be a hard one for us. Nuggets, Timberwolves.
- [73:22]
B
It's going great.
- [73:23]
A
We'll talk about that next. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. We've seen some legendary athletes don the number four jersey. Now, I can't name names, but you guys know who I'm talking about. In fact, if you look at my studio, there's a framed picture of one of my favorite number fours. He played hockey. Anyway, you know what else is game changing for PayPal? Pay in four. No fees, no interest, no impact on your credit score, just the flexibility to pay the way that works for you. And it's available at millions of online stores. Pay in four with PayPal subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com payinfor paypal inc.nmls910457 this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Upsets Buzzer beaters. Game changing plays what happens on the court keeps us on our toes. And life isn't any different. That's where State Farm comes in. With over 19,000 neighborhood agents for when you want to talk to a real person and easy to use digital tools. State Farm is there to help when facing the unpredictable. Because in life's uncertain moments, big or small, you need to know someone is ready to assist. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Viori, whose Lounge collection is a total game changer for fall comfort. Take their Ponto Performance joggers and Coronado hoodie made with Viori's signature Dream Knit fabric. Super soft lightweight move with you wherever the day takes you. Plus, they're designed to look great whether you're working out, running errands or even heading to the office or, like me, power walking around la. Basically, Vioria is an investment in your happiness. For our listeners, they're offering 20% off your first purchase at Vuori.com Simmons v U-O-R I.com Simmons exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, Zach, Game four Nuggets Wolves, which gave us a terrible defenseo Achilles injury that I didn't even see because I was watching the other game within a minute of the start. A really scary ant injury that seemed like it was the acl cause he was holding the side of his knee. Turns out hyperextension, but he's out for the round. Iowa is 43 in the game and 27 in the second half and if you only watch this game you would think he was one of the best 10 players in the league. We had a near brawl involving Jokic. Very entertaining involving the Joker, which is always all bets are off. And Julius Randle came in with a little like Steven Jackson in the artes melee kind of energy. I thought he was really going to escalate it, but huge fight in the stance. Lots of video from that.
- [76:13]
B
I didn't see that. There was a fight in the stance between Nuggets fans and Timberwolves fans.
- [76:17]
A
Big fight in the stance. Can go look that up.
- [76:19]
B
Wow, what a rivalry. It's even spilling into fandom. That's great. We had maybe not great. I don't know if it was. I didn't see the fight. I should have seen.
- [76:25]
A
Who knew that was a rivalry?
- [76:27]
B
Were there children involved? I hope not. I hope everyone's okay.
- [76:29]
A
I hopefully everyone's all right. We had ABC breaking into the game and forcing us to move to ESPN because they had to do an update about the White House dinner, the shooting there and then after the game someone Stole Joker's underwear. And he was really mad about it. Probably more mad than the loss. I don't know where you want to start, but this was probably the drunkest game of the year, replacing whatever the previous drunkest game of the year was.
- [76:58]
B
I want to start with the injuries to Minnesota because they're up 3:1 in this series, and if even just Ant were healthy, they would probably win the series, even though they only have the one home game left and be a dangerous team in the next round. And now Ant availability is in question for an unknown period of time. And DiVincenzo, the dude is just a winner and a gamer. Played every game he wins everywhere he goes. He's just such an awesome role player and has done so well there. That's. That's a heartbreaker. And you knew it right away. You feared it right away. He knew it right away, it seemed like when he was on the floor. So I want to start there because as appealing as it is to start with, like, is Jokic having the worst playoff series of his career? Is Denver. Is their window already closed or closing right now for this, for this core? What does that mean for the offseason? Those are the big questions.
- [77:53]
A
I might have to open a Michelob Ultra for this. I'm getting upset.
- [77:58]
B
I want to. I want to sit with the Timberwolves injuries for just a second because DiVincenzo's like, just classic central casting. Beloved, like, glue guy, role player. And Ant. Is Ant one of the faces of the league? One of the most explosive players in the league? A guy who plays both ends of the floor and is risen up in the playoffs every year that he's been there. And this team is, like, has a legit, awesome top seven. Like, they're starting five plus IO and Nas Reed, and then you go down below that, and it's. Bones has been playing well and whatever, but. But, like, they are legitimately really good. And if they're harmed going into the second round, assuming they win the series, which I don't think is a done deal, by the way, that just. It just sucks. And all these injuries sucks. And when Castle went out in that game earlier today with the hand injury, I'm like, I'm. I just don't want to. I can't watch this anymore.
- [78:47]
A
Yeah. And defense, Enzo's out next year. The timing of these, when you. When you get March, April, May range, you're also out for the next season, I would assume. Unless he's on some crazy Tatum timeline, that would put him back. I Guess I don't know. He would have to get lucky. I know he flew to New York today and got the surgery, but the thing with him, other than your top seven point, he would swing two halves a series just by getting hot, it felt like. And I thought he was a great wild card. Like, oh, my God, Dante's heating up. He's not afraid of this moment. And somebody's going to have to fill that spot.
- [79:22]
B
Yeah, I should have clarified by top seven. I'm including DiVincenzo. And now he's gone. And so we're going to see more Mike Conley. I was very happy, by the way, that Mike Conley threw this all. Had a moment. Had a moment in a big, big game and. And Shannon got in. I think they're going to need. They're just going to need other guys to just fill time now.
- [79:39]
A
The Ant thing was the least surprising injury of the first round because he did not. Except for Aaron Gordon, because Ant did not look healthy. You could tell something was wrong with his knee. And he was also playing a hundred percent, not favoring it at all. And then afterwards, kind of be like, ow, that still hurts. And it was just scary to watch play by play. Cause he was clearly not healthy, but playing like he was healthy.
- [80:05]
B
Well, and. But that's the crazy thing about these two wins from Minnesota is Ant was in foul trouble and not great in game three, Ant was doing, like, pretty much nothing. Like, he wasn't even that involved in the offense before he got hurt in Game 4. And they still win both games. And I'm glad you brought up Aaron Gordon because, you know, he deserves credit for trying to gut out that game. But he just was scary. It was. He was just jogging lightly on his feet and he summoned a couple of big jumps for a rebound and for a challenge at the rim. And both times I was like, oh, no, is this like. It was not. And without him and Watson, they're just too small. They're too small for the Timberwolves. They don't have enough force. They don't have enough oomph. And like, that's not an excuse. It just is. It is what it is. And now there's just injuries scattered across this series. And one of these teams is going to win four games and go on to the next round and face the
- [80:53]
A
spurs, by the way, and be a shell of themselves.
- [80:56]
B
But by the way, I mean, you go back to that Spurs Nuggets regular season finale. Like, the Nuggets shouldn't even be playing the Timberwolves like both of those teams had it lined up for them and they, I don't, I don't know what happened. I mean it's not like the Nuggets played all their best David Roddy and
- [81:11]
A
all those guys happened. They just start, they just play their best worst guys played really well for about a half an hour.
- [81:17]
B
That's when you start being like, hey David Roddy, if you ever wanted to take 12 left handed threes and a half, like have, have at it man. Go watch some Mark Madsen film at halftime from gaming. Like you gotta lose that game. And the spurs should have been like, well we'll help.
- [81:31]
A
I talked about that a couple pods ago, how that not only swung this series but it swung that Lakers, Rockets whole situation in a crazy way where the Lakers just would have gotten I think dusted by somebody. And instead we have this next chapter in LeBron's legacy and Marcus Smart's rejuvenated. Luke Kenard is back. The Rockets are a complete mess. Darren Gordon thing, regardless, he looks like he's done and it completely changes whatever this ceiling was for Denver. I thought they're going to make the finals. I don't think they're going to make the finals with how he looks. There's some other stuff though.
- [82:07]
B
There's a lot, there is a lot to unpack.
- [82:09]
A
Well, the IO thing, how long were we on the trade deadline pod we did talking about how fucking stupid that trade was and trying to get. We weren't the only ones. I'm not, I'm not claiming the territory by ourselves. Joining us were probably everybody else who has a podcast and watches basketball. Everyone who watched the Chicago Bulls fairly regularly to regularly. This guy was a good basketball player and he was on a cheap contract and these guys should be the hardest people to trade for. And they got him for four second rounders and it was just immediately clear he was the perfect guy to add for them. And I don't know where a bunch of teams were with this. I don't understand how you get this guy for four second rounders. With that said, the stuff he's doing offensively, I did not know, I did not know he had this like he was unstoppable, unstoppable. Denver was like gearing their defense to try to stop him and couldn't stop him. I did not know he could do this.
- [83:06]
B
I mean if I don't know when the first timestamp is of me saying that Timberwolves should trade for IO to Sumidu, but it's like in the fall. It was that obvious. And I do feel like. Imagine being a Bulls fan, where almost everything that happens in the NBA playoffs ends up being a joke at your expense. Like, oh, this guy was just on the Bulls. Like, you had him on your team. You don't have a lot going for you. You had him and you're like, yeah, you know what? We're gonna have to pay him and something. Minnesota just gets him. And, yeah, I mean, he's. He's just a very good player, and he fits them well. And he shot 45% on threes this year, but I did not. I mean, it was the I.O. show from. From start to finish.
- [83:45]
A
Second half. Also another guy, and this is a recurring theme in all these series, like, just an incredibly competitive guy who really seems to respect and treasure being on the big stage, you know, like you. You've seen a bunch of these guys talk about this. Barnes is another one. Like, I've really. I've really grown to admire Barnes. Barnes is like, I'll. I'll fucking die to win this series. I'll do anything it takes. I'm so happy to be here in the playoffs. And IO's another one. I think IO is this guy who probably watched the playoffs in April, May, and June every year and was like, fuck, I really want to be in the playoffs. I'm on the Bulls.
- [84:20]
B
Why am I on the Bulls? They're my hometown team. I know, but.
- [84:24]
A
So, anyway, I'm happy for him, and he really fits in with the kind of mentality and energy of this team. And Jaden McDaniels. I watched something on the social media today. Of all the people he's, like, kind of battled with and gone at. He has no respect for anybody. Like, this would have been the guy who went at Kobe and Jordan. If he was, you know, in those eras, he'd have been like, fuck these guys. I'm not afraid of these guys. And this is the best he's ever played. So to. To do all this when you have a compromised aunt who then goes out of the game in game four and still feel like they're probably going to beat Denver is pretty crazy.
- [85:01]
B
Just a total gutsy performance by the Wolves. Gobert has been sensational the entire series.
- [85:07]
A
I will say sensational.
- [85:08]
B
There are a few other things that need to be remarked on in this game.
- [85:11]
A
That Gobert took a three.
- [85:13]
B
Well, okay, I was going to go, we. We need to deep dive the end of the game, but at some point. But Gobert takes that three. I mean, they're all, they're up 13 with six minutes left. That is such an insulting shot. That's like a shot you, you would take. If you're up 30 with 2 1/2 minutes left. They're up. That's like a very like winnable game for Denver in most circumstances. And Gobert taking that. There was like 17 on the shot clock. He took it. That was so disrespectful. And I mean this in a good and fun way. That was just like, we have you. We know we have you. I'm just going to give myself a 15% chance to have the target center just combust if I make this shot. That was so disrespectful. I loved it.
- [85:54]
A
You know, it wasn't even a heat check. 3. It was like a somebody driving home and they just decided to drive the car with their feet on the steering wheel and stick their head through the sunroof was one of those moves. It's like, watch this, guys. Like, that's how confident he was. They were winning the game.
- [86:11]
B
It was like a. To put it in your language, it was like a seven way parlay. It was like Adam Sandler in Uncut Gems betting on like KG winning the jump ball and five. Five other things happening at once. And he was like, fuck it, I'm doing it. We're only up 13. If they lost. Imagine if they lost. We would look back at that and be like, why did you. What happened?
- [86:27]
A
You know what the funniest thing about that shot was? I thought it was going in.
- [86:31]
B
It looked good.
- [86:32]
A
It had this kind of energy for the Timberwolves where it's like, ah, that's probably fucking going in the way this is going for Minnesota. But yeah, what McDaniels has done in this series and how many miles he's put on Murray combined with what Gobert has done to Joker. I was on a lot of texts today. I have a lot of people in my life, they know who they are who get really mad when I compare Joker to Bird and Magic and. And that I voted for him for MVP again, all that. So there's a lot of people I heard from today. I don't have to name them. And you want to do this now or did you have more from this game?
- [87:08]
B
No, let's do it now. I feel like you're on the therapist couch and you're ready to go. So let's go.
- [87:15]
A
It's. We're four games in the series. I'm not ready to say that. This is one of the big disasters of all time. I will say if they get knocked out of this series and he's looked the way he's looked at it does feel like the best player alive Room. The door is going to open and somebody's going to be able to walk into that room now and be declared the new person.
- [87:39]
B
I mean I have voted. Shay, I voted. I didn't vote, but I didn't have a vote. I had Shea MVP and Shay's been number one in Ringer 100 the last two or three times that already happened.
- [87:50]
A
Deep in the recesses of recesses of your soul. You thought Joker was the best player in the league.
- [87:57]
B
That no, I mean like Shay took the belt. I think this season after the injury by the. The injury is like a line of demarcation. The injury on December 30 when Jokic got hurt. He has not been the same guy since and I think Shea has been the best player since then. Period. No, no caveats, no like well if I had to win a game, blah, blah. I think he's just been the best guy. By the way, we're probably not going to talk about it because it's a boring series. What he did to Phoenix in game three yesterday was like had it in my notes.
- [88:24]
A
15, 15 for 18 was shit talking.
- [88:28]
B
Straight up majestic and like they couldn't do anything with him. And defensively he's a game changing. He makes some game changing plays here and there. It just. But okay, I'm sorry I interrupted the Jokic cope.
- [88:41]
A
Well, this is a six year run. Six started in 20. They come back and they beat Utah. Right. They come back from in the bubble. That was kind of the arrival playoffs. So seven years, really six. They lose two because of the Murray injury. He wins three MVPs. They win one title. That's going to start too. Oh, they won one title but look who they played. People are going to do that. He's 31 years old. I wouldn't say he's going to have a LeBron type of physical arc of staying in shape until his late 30s and being incredible. God only knows what he's going to look like at age 35, 36. The bigger thing for me is the team around him. I really worry this is really it for him as a contender. If they can't get out of the first round this year, Gordon's year, 13 next year, God only knows what he's going to be like physically. Whatever we saw from Cam Johnson this year, can't say I was impressed. I went from thinking that was A steal of a trade to wondering, like, would Michael Porter Jr. Have actually maybe helped them in this series?
- [89:47]
B
People. I said it from John.
- [89:48]
A
I know you did. I know you did.
- [89:49]
B
People disrespected Michael Porter Jr. In the analysis of that trade.
- [89:53]
A
And then, and then Tim Hardaway, like the biggest part of this game, Denver was like, felt like they were going to come back multiple times in that fourth quarter. Hardaway's in the corner, takes a three. It hits the side of the backboard. Like I think it would have cut the game to like four or six. Next play, Cam Johnson or that the next time they have it, Cam Johnson's wide open on the side. Same thing. Missed a three. Like Murray was the only guy that hit a three in the second half for them yesterday. He had two. Everybody else is over 11. So the supporting cast has been bad. Here's what I don't understand, Zach. For the season, they were first in offense, 121.3 by possession, 100 possessions. Their offense is 105.3. In the playoffs, they're last in three point shooting. In the playoffs, they're 16th shooting 28.5. Their 40% field goal 15th. They're not really turning them all over. Their second best in turnovers and they're first at getting the line. They're 33 free throw attempts a game and the offense just looks awful. There was one stat I saw on Reddit. Denver on open shots is 8 for 36 in the playoffs, and on wide open shots, they're 20 for 57. I don't understand what happened to their offense. And I can't think it's just Gordon and I can't think Gobert McDaniels, as good as they've been, are this good. Like, they've completely shut down an offense that was humming the entire season. I don't really get it.
- [91:20]
B
Well, I mean, a lot of the open shots are Christian Brown and Spencer Jones and Jokic. Threes, which they're giving them, which don't
- [91:26]
A
go in anymore for some reason, and
- [91:28]
B
Aaron Gordon on one leg jump shots. So they're open, but they're like not. It's not like Steph Curry's out there shooting, catch and shoot.
- [91:36]
A
True threes.
- [91:37]
B
I'm glad you brought this up though, because when the Nuggets fail, everybody wants to clown on Jokic's defense, which is hit or miss. Obviously they're loot. Their. Their defense has actually been fine in this series. For the most part, they're losing because they have absolutely no answers for Minnesota's defense. And it's shocking to see Denver out of answers because they were the number one offense in the NBA this season. There were nights where it looked so easy for them, and the Wolves have just taken them completely out of their game. And they've taken Jokic. Gobert, with a great team of defenders around him, has taken Jokic totally out of the. Out of his rhythm, totally out of his usual game. And the way I was looking at the tracking data over the weekend, now, this is before game four. And because I was curious, having watched game three, his post ups are down. Like, he just doesn't want to post up against Gobert. Like, every minute that he's out there with Nas Reed or Julius Randle on him, they should be going to him in the post. And yet they weren't in the third quarter. The Bear was out of the game for a while. And I kept waiting for Jokic to take over, and he was just getting the ball 30ft from the hoop, and they were running split cuts and all this stuff that looks nice, but it's like, dude, you have Julius Randall and Naz read on you. You should. You should be like, this is your time. And then he's also not rolling to the rim nearly as often. And I don't know if it's. I don't know what it is, but I think he knows that they're trying to take that away, and he's just not doing it. And when he's not doing it, he's not compromising their defense at all. And I don't know if there's. There was one play in game three that he finally rolled hard to the rim, and he got the ball in the spot where we've seen him make a floater 5,000 times. And he went up for it. And Gobert was in the neighborhood, rotating around and in midair. Jokic dumped it down to Christian Brown, who was kind of like right under the rim, but couldn't go up because Gobert was there. And that the possession died out after that. And that play and combined with him. If you look at the tracking data, him rolling to the rim a lot, rolling into the paint, rolling at all. Like, just. He's just popping and staying put. Doing that less often has me wondering. Like, they're just in his head. Gobert's in his head. He's out of rhythm. He's not playing the way he usually does. And all those pet paint shots are gone, vaporized. And the Tibalos have completely taken him out of his game.
- [93:51]
A
I agree with everything you just said. Now, to add this. And this goes to the Taking him out of his game. They figured out a way to speed him up to just like almost like a podcast where Jokic is like, I like when. I like when my podcasts are at 1. 2. I'm a 1.2 guy. That's what I am. I like to play at that speed. And the Timberwolves have sped him up to 1 5. And where I've really noticed it is on defensive rebounds when he's like, trying to. He had a couple of the crazy turnovers that he hasn't had since, like, the 2010s in the second half of that game where it's like he's afraid McDaniels is going to come from behind or IO or somebody and they're going to swipe the ball from him. So he's getting these balls and he's like, like a bad out of hell going up the thing or trying to do these quick passes. And he's not. He doesn't have that same calm pace that he always had. Like, they've, They've. They've just discombobulated him. And the thing I was telling to the people that were making fun of me today in my life, like, people have had bad series. Right. And every single great player we've ever had has had a lousy series. Yeah, tragic. Johnson, Kobe had the 04 against the Pistons, was a classic. Bird had a couple stinkers. Like, the 88 Piston series is bad. Every Jordan against Orlando in 95. Everybody has him. I'm just surprised it happened right now for Jokic with what we had seen this year, because I really felt like he, in a lot of ways, I, you know, I know he got injured. He came back. We were worried about him, but I really felt like he had his mojo back. And I thought this team knew what it was. Now you look at them, it's like Valent Shunas doesn't play anymore. They don't really have a backup point guard. It's just a bad matchup for them. And sometimes that happens in basketball. So they're favored on FanDuel for game five. They're favored by ten and a half in game five.
- [95:45]
B
Oh, with the injuries, sure. Yeah. I think that's still too. I think the way they're playing, I
- [95:49]
A
think it'd be like minus six.
- [95:51]
B
I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with Aaron Gordon. Just eye test, like, and the fact that he didn't come back in the game in the second half after he went out, like, I would just plan on him. I'm mentally planning on him not playing, and that seems like too many points. But you brought up a very important point, though. Whereas as much as you want to make this about Jokic, and he deserves all the criticism, like, Gobert has eaten his lunch and taken him out of the game. Jokic and Murray scored 54 points in game four. The rest of the team scored 32. I'm sorry, 42. And Cam Johnson has been nothing. Christian Brown has been nothing. That's two of your starters giving you zero. Watson's obviously not playing. And I think there's a real discussion to be had. I don't know if now is the time to do it, because we haven't got to the end of the game, which I found delightful.
- [96:40]
A
Are you doing this?
- [96:41]
B
No, there's just a real discussion to be had about Oklahoma and San Antonio are who they are, and did Denver just flat out miss its chance at a second ring? Is the window closed for them because Murray and Jokic are getting older? Gordon, it just. I think you just have to assume that he's just not going to be healthy for six straight weeks in the playoffs ever again. I mean, the evidence suggests that there and the rest of their team is just not performing up to the level it needs to perform. And it just. You do. Like, things happen fast in the NBA. You mentioned 21. Murray hurt 22. Murray hurt 23. They win the title 24. They'll always regret blowing that lead in game seven at home against Minnesota, because I think that had been favorites over Dallas in the next round and favorites over Boston in the finals, perhaps. Although that, you know, that would have been a good matchup. Obviously, that would have been. The Boston probably would have been favored, but that was. There are three rings sitting there. Two of them. Rob, not their chance, was eliminated by injuries. 1. I think they would have had a real good shot at it, and they didn't get out of game seven. And now it's like. Like, is this it? Like, are we. Are we done? And if. If we. If we do think we're done, what the hell are we supposed to do?
- [97:51]
A
You know, it's hilarious. I was a step ahead of you for where you were going, and I thought you were going where I'm starting.
- [97:57]
B
Yokesh Trades. Yokich. Should Detroit trade everything for Yokich? Charlotte trade everything for Yokich? You want to do it?
- [98:03]
A
No, I thought that's where you were going to go, though. That's why I jerked up because I do think like this if you're them like we had the window and now we're kind of stuck with this team. That's the real issue with them.
- [98:16]
B
Sengun 5 first round picks 6. I mean you do really do it. You're not ready yet.
- [98:22]
A
I don't think Jokic I think he's a little like Curry where he's like I like Denver and I'm happy and I'm just happy to compete every year. But the San Antonio OKC point has been lurking all year and this is why I really thought this was last stand for Denver like this is it. You might be able to catch OKC in a back to back with Jalen wins. They've had some injuries. You know you can play them pretty well and San Antonio is a year away from being ready. This is like your window and you know I don't know about.
- [98:50]
B
I don't know about San Antonio being
- [98:51]
A
a year away well after this weekend but I'm just saying like youth wise
- [98:55]
B
they played them well in the regular season. The Nuggets played the spurs well in the regular.
- [98:58]
A
My point is next year San Antonio is going to be better than this year. So yes team set are up three one in a series there's been 298 NBA examples. Okay. How many do you think have come back?
- [99:12]
B
17, 13.
- [99:14]
A
Okay I. 285 and 13.
- [99:18]
B
How many were coached by Doc Rivers?
- [99:21]
A
At least a couple. Minnesota's defensive rating with Rudy is 98.5 in the series. That's like out of the 1940s. Christian Brown his extension kicks in next year for 125 million for five years.
- [99:40]
B
It does, it does.
- [99:42]
A
That is gonna. I think it made the worst contracts with me was at House I think was drafted that one. It's now there's been some. Him and Pearl I think are going to be high first round picks in that draft next year. But the Brown thing's tough cause if you can't guard IO or anybody else you can't shut down anyone on on Minnesota, any of their perimeter guys. And you're not making threes and you're not finishing around the rim and you can't hit free throws. I'm really not sure what you're bringing to the table cause that's kind of the four reasons you're playing.
- [100:16]
B
I think that contract was a bet on him improving his three point shot which he's done intermittently and then it always seems to disappear for two weeks, three weeks here and there. And yeah, I mean that was a very clear choice of. You know, there's obviously a lot of variables and variables involved in these choices, including what salaries the players want and all that. But that was a very clear like we're choosing you over Peyton Watson or if we have to choose one and whatever variables line up, we're choosing you. And Peyton Watson flat out outplayed him when he was healthy this year and now he becomes a free agent and they are already like apron troubled and I don't know what they're going to do.
- [100:54]
A
This really makes me sad. I do respect, like if Jokic is going to go down, my favorite non Celtic to watch other than maybe Curry. If he's going to go down this way, I want it to go down this way. Like Terminator 2 style with the falling into the pit, putting his hand up, down three one just like one last 37, 15 and 17 and just doing everything. Murray is playing well in this series. I think.
- [101:23]
B
Yes.
- [101:24]
A
They just. I just need. Unfortunately against Minnesota, you're gonna need more than that. Wow. So you're already. You've already poured dirt on.
- [101:31]
B
No, no, no, no, no. Listen.
- [101:32]
A
I said the best guy in the league. No, it's fine.
- [101:34]
B
I said that they, they could still win the series.
- [101:36]
A
No, you have SGA now. You're an SGA guy.
- [101:39]
B
Will you stop?
- [101:40]
A
You love foul baiting. You're a foul baiter now. Okay, all right, well, yeah, that's who you are. It's fine.
- [101:47]
B
Look, if I could bait fouls, I would bait fouls. I can't though. I'm also. I'm just at flat. I'm just an injury risk at this point for any, any running sporting event.
- [101:55]
A
I'm going to get you an Okie. Okay? Okay. FC hat.
- [102:00]
B
Is that a thing?
- [102:01]
A
No, I'm trying to make it a thing. No okc. They're clearly. It's Shay's time now and if they win back to back, I think whoever emerges from that OKC San Antonio series will be the best player in the league. That's who we will feel has the belt and that's just how it's going to go.
- [102:17]
B
Can we do three minutes on the end of the game?
- [102:19]
A
Yeah.
- [102:20]
B
McDaniels Jokic.
- [102:22]
A
Yeah.
- [102:23]
B
First of all, I hope nobody gets suspended. I hate when this stuff happens. When they do the film about. Did someone leave the bench? As you pointed out over text, I think the players thought the game had ended and so I thought the game had ended. Everyone thought the game had ended. But there's one person that's not getting any credit here that I would like to give a little credit to. Mike Conley threw that pass ahead to Jaden McDaniels when he Absolutely did not have to. He could have just dribbled out the clock or dribbled up to half court. And I think Mike Conley has a little bit of shit disturber in him. It was like, let's see what happens if I throw this pass up to Jaden McDaniels. And you could see Jokic watching. Like as soon as that pass went, Jokic turned his back to the hoop that he was shooting at and just watched Jada McDaniels who was like waiting the car. Are you going to do it, motherfucker? You're actually going to do it. And then he did it. But I want to give my Colley a lot of credit for starting the whole thing. Maybe inadvertently, maybe slightly vert. I don't know. But that's a great pass by Mike Conley. Yet another assist in an illustrious point guard. Mike Conley.
- [103:20]
A
Joker running at you full speed, angry.
- [103:24]
B
It's not what I want.
- [103:24]
A
He's first team all NBA with. I'm trying to think other ones. Isaiah Stewart.
- [103:29]
B
Oh, Isaac Stewart is. Isaiah Stewart is in a league of his own.
- [103:33]
A
Jalen Duran. It's probably the top three. Two of them are on Detroit.
- [103:37]
B
I did enjoy McDaniels when he was asked about. It was like, I didn't know what was happening. I just know someone big as hell was coming at me. I'm like, yep, that's. That's right.
- [103:45]
A
McDaniels Energy has, I think, really spoken for this Timberwolves team who's clearly knew they were playing with Edwards. Not at 100% and they're still carrying themselves.
- [103:56]
B
The other take I just want to have on this, if you will allow me.
- [103:59]
A
Yeah.
- [104:00]
B
Is Denver Nuggets. Nicole Yokich, David Adelman. All of you, stop whining. The guy scored a layup against you in garbage time. You're that upset about it? Like, how about just don't go to garbage time. How about try to play better during the run of the game? The unwritten rules. It's not like he did a windmill dunk. 3 6. He just put the ball in the hoop.
- [104:17]
A
I think it was that it was him of all the people that did it.
- [104:20]
B
Well, then just take the L. Cause the guy talked shit about your entire roster, backed it up and made a layup in garbage time. Then you get all mad about it. It's come on the game's going on. He made a layup. Big deal. He doesn't get to see scores. He's not like a. Wants an extra two points.
- [104:34]
A
You'll be surprised to know I completely agree. And I thought Adam and seemed like a loser in the press conference. And by the way, him talking about wondering where. When the. When the. All the Nuggets fans, everybody who watches this team is like, where the. Where's the fight? Why are you guys rolling over like this? What are we watching? Where is like, the pride that we've watched last six years? And Adam's like, what do you mean? I thought we were competitive.
- [104:59]
B
I had it in my notes in the game, in the last, like, from like minute four to minute two of the fourth quarter. The. Like, not. Not the very end, but they're a little stretch there before the very end, they seem to start playing harder than they had played, particularly on offense. Like, they started executing with a lot more zip and a lot more force. And to the point that I put it in my notes. It's like, where. It's too late. It's too late now.
- [105:23]
A
Well, do you think Adelman's coaching this team next year if they get bounced in five or six? Because I do not.
- [105:29]
B
Who the hell knows with these coaching changes? I mean, Tiago Splitter can't get a job. These guys are all getting. Who the hell knows with these coaching decisions anymore.
- [105:37]
A
Billy Dynamond's like, hey, guys, do you have a top six or seven player in the league? Cause I would love to have that opportunity to coach somebody really good.
- [105:45]
B
You know who did it, right? Monty Williams took all the money, got fired and was like, you know what I'm going to do? Just nothing. How about I just coach high school, coach my sons? You can keep paying me eight figures a year for as many years as the contract goes on. That's what. Billy. Billy Donovan. I don't know. I think he only has one more year.
- [106:04]
A
I don't think. I don't think people are knocking on Monty's door. There's been a couple people that have just like, will Adrian Griffin ever coach again? There's a couple of these guys that just come and go, and we'll never see them again.
- [106:16]
B
I guess that was a bad ending.
- [106:17]
A
Adrian Griffin.
- [106:18]
B
Anyway, that's Nuggets Wolves. I. I think there's.
- [106:21]
A
My only thing to add from your last. From that brawl was I just really want to encourage people to go back and look at Randall going to another level. I don't. I actually really thought he was going to take a swing at somebody and get ejected. So we'll see if they have suspensions.
- [106:36]
B
I watched it again today, many times. He seemed under control, under control to me and just incredibly strong. My takeaway from that was Julius Randle is just so fucking strong that if he gets into these scrums, the whole scrum is moving. Whenever Julius Rand into whatever direction he's pushing, that's where it's going.
- [106:56]
A
This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? It isn't just the no look dimes. It's because they know everything. Who's hot, who's tired, what the defense is doing, which teammate needs a basketball. Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play, marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed. HubSpot gives you that point guard vision. One platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win. Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Instagram. As a parent, I know that you're always gonna worry about your teens. And while we can't keep them at home in a bubble, there are still ways to make sure they're protected. Like Instagram teen accounts. Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools and extra controls for parents who prefer them. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online@instagram.com teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts all right, Knicks hawks really quickly. It was absolute panic time after Game 3 for the Knicks fans. I know you know a lot of them. I know a lot of them too. I was just shocked by the angst. Knicks come out. Guess what? When the Knicks have the lead for most of the game, pretty fun ride. They took the lead early, kept. They were up by 10, 11, 12, 15, 8, 12 and never gave it up. The only things that I noticed other than that they weren't playing from behind was they won more. 50, 50 balls. They played through towns a little bit more. It wasn't like he took 40 shots and they gave us a whiff of Alvarado. But the big thing was that Atlanta just sucked. I thought they were just awful. It was a butterfingers game I watched with your old Grantland teammate, Rembert Brown.
- [109:03]
B
Oh, poor Rem.
- [109:04]
A
Every time he's come over I think he's come over for an Atlanta loss regardless of the sport. And we were just saying is this is a Butterfingers game. Every 50, 50 you could just tell they're going to lose it. Guys in traffic, they're just going to lose it. Rebounds, bouncing off hands, going to the Knicks and they just really sucked. 10 for 41 from 3 for Atlanta. And I thought the Knicks were leaving Daniels and Jalen Johnson and Akongwu. Basically if you want to shoot that, you're open for a reason, good luck.
- [109:35]
B
Well, they should. I mean that should be. You know, the Hawks want to get into the paint and knife around in there and get to the rim and they should go under on screens when they can for all those guys. And it's on the Hawks to make it hard through disguise and creativity and all that for them to do that. But I think the Knicks two wins in this series have been two of their very best defensive games of the whole season. And Towns has been pretty sound defensively throughout the whole series and including in those two games. And I understand the angst if you're a Knicks fan because this is just on paper. They should be up 3:1. This should just be a run of the mill favorite over underdog, has a chance to close it out in five first round series. And in the middle of their two pretty emphatic wins are two one point losses, both of which they could have, should have had multiple chances to win and didn't. Partly thanks to CJ McCollum being unbelievable, partly thanks to some puzzling coaching decisions, partly thanks to the Hawks being good. But this doesn't this feel like it should be 31 Knicks and just we're barely thinking about the series because it goes the way these series tend to go.
- [110:35]
A
And now can I say two and a half to one and a half?
- [110:38]
B
That's fine. They better win a game five because you think it was angsty going into game game four. If they're down three two do onto Atlanta. Look out.
- [110:45]
A
Bench karma was great for the series. Atlanta is 32% from 3. Daniels is. I'm sorry, Jalen Johnson's 28%. Daniels is 14%. Kaminga is 18%. Kaminga I want to single out for being singularly horrific in game four. That was wow. It just really just. It was like throwing a grenade on the court. He just couldn't have been worse. We've also seen the flip side of that. When he comes in and he's awesome. That's just who he is. He's trick or Treat it was a trick in that game, but I just wrote down in bold. I do think the Hawks blew their window for this series. I think they could have. If they had come out and thrown a couple punches and made some threes and gotten in the crowd into it and gotten the Knicks a little nervous, I would have been really interested to see what happened this second half. But they did not do any of that.
- [111:36]
B
Here's the only I mean the Knicks are an endlessly fascinating puzzle to me. They look great for one game, great for two games, crappy for one game. You never know what is going to happen with them. The one thing I would say about the Hawks and their chances is I still didn't love the way the Knicks half court offense looked in that game. Despite the fact that the same simple play of Jalen Brunson setting a back screen for OG and an Obi in the corner worked like 17 times. As if the Hawks were just like, I guess we just can't adjust to this. We're just going to let OG dunk eight more times. And then I looked up the numbers because it seemed to me like the Knicks were just, just every transition chance they had. To your point, about 50, 50 balls. And if you go to cleaning the glass, their half court points for possession in that game was like average ish. And transition. It like breaks my laptop when I bring up their transition points for possession. That's like, that's, that's the Josh Hart stuff, right? I mean that's the stuff that he brings. And I mean, I mean the other thing is it's not like the McKill Bridges question was really answered. He played 19 minutes in that game even though Mike Brown started him. And didn't you think it was weird when Mike Brown was like, I'm not going to tell you who's starting to but whatever decision is made is my decision. I'm like, did anyone think, like did anyone think it was not going to be your decision? Like what question are you answering right now?
- [112:52]
A
Rick Brunson was in play. Maybe that was speaking to Rick Bridges has reached the it's a bonus if he does anything in these games. Part of his contribution to the season it feels like. But the flip side is OG has been so good. It's so awesome that the seesaw, the OG Bridges seesaw is now like this. But OG has been so good they're almost okay with it because they're getting the what they're getting from Hart. I was, I never understood why they gave up on Alvarado I know that he wasn't hitting threes for weeks on end and had become unplayable, but I just think in a playoff series he's annoying and he's the kind of guy who can come in in the second quarter and somebody like C.J. mcCombs like, God damn it, I hate going against this guy. This is not going to be a fun five minutes. And I think I really value those guys in a series.
- [113:45]
B
Well, first of all, he had a, just an all time great Grand Theft Alvarado in the game.
- [113:50]
A
He did.
- [113:50]
B
Second of all, you just have to add them to your list of when you act, when you go through it guards. The Houston Rockets could have and didn't trade for. That might have helped right now, listen,
- [114:03]
A
I mean that's, that list is a hundred deep.
- [114:06]
B
It's pretty deep. Colin Sexton is like, I mean watching these games. Like, I mean I could have really.
- [114:14]
A
Colin Sexton's like, I was right here.
- [114:16]
B
Like I, I won't, I'll, I won't throw the ball away if we're up by six.
- [114:20]
A
Well, I think what's funny and maybe not funny about the Rockets is keeping Van Vliet because he was so important as a locker room guy and he wanted to be there and you didn't wanna put him in a trade and which I get, that's, that's great. But who has a worse locker room in chemistry than the Rockets? Maybe they could have afforded to trade Van V for somebody who could dribble the ball and protect a six point lead with 30 seconds left. Bridges for the series is 7.3 points a game. OG's averaging a 21 and nine and he's shooting 52% from three and feels
- [114:51]
B
like he's hit nine huge threes with the shot clock expiring and the Knicks have having nothing going on. Just, just, just bailing them out.
- [114:59]
A
So we talked before game four and you were talking about, we were talking about emergency pods, all kinds of stuff. If the Knicks were down three one in a game five, you, it was conceivable that the Knicks were going to be down three one heading into a game five to the, to our earlier points. Yeah, it was in the air. You could feel it. I think game five is going to be an awesome game. If we're talking about what's going to be the most compelling game fives. And we're taping this before these last two games that happened today.
- [115:28]
B
But these are game, these are game fours. So.
- [115:31]
A
Right. Minnesota, Minnesota Denver. Game 5 is obviously a must Watch with a lot of like big picture Jokic legacy stuff at stake. And I think Knicks Hawks would be the other kind of must watch for me. Or Orlando Detroit. They don't even have a. We have a game four coming up because that series has been a little staggered. But. But Knicks Hawks, like, I still feel like the Hawks could just shoot better and hang around with them and then just try to get it to the last three minutes. And I thought the same way with you about the Knicks half court offense.
- [116:04]
B
I mean, it's going to be a fascinating game. I'm hoping to be there.
- [116:08]
A
And you got to go to that one. I would, I would demand you go.
- [116:11]
B
My credential application has been filed and we'll see these games get crowded and all that.
- [116:18]
A
But do you want me to talk to Bobby Bacala and who are the other Sopranos that go?
- [116:24]
B
I don't know about the other Sopranos, but I, I mean, the Knicks have more celebrity fans than the Lakers somehow.
- [116:28]
A
Now I'm going to call Modine, see if there's extra tickets.
- [116:32]
B
He hasn't been there. I haven't seen him there at all.
- [116:34]
A
Susie Aspen, when we give her.
- [116:35]
B
Yeah, get Susie on the, on the horn.
- [116:37]
A
You got to go to that one.
- [116:39]
B
But no, I mean, like the east is again. Who, who wants this conference other than what. I mean, we're taping this before Boston Philly. If Boston blows the crap out of Philly. Let's do that.
- [116:48]
A
We'll do that in the first segment because Boston will give us. Right now it's 11 to 10, so we gotta go pretty soon. I gotta do a really quick parent corner with you before we go shoot. So Amazon prime, they do the thing where if it's like three devices are using it, they shut one down or four, I forget what the number is. So my daughter's using my Amazon prime, which is fine because she's my daughter. I'm sure yours will be in college someday using your Amazon or one of your other streamers. And I was using two different ones. Cause there was two games going on and it logged me out of one of the things. And it was because my dad was logged into my Amazon. So I had to call my dad. My dad's like, well, I can't get Amazon unless I'm on your Amazon. And I'm like, but dad, you have Amazon Prime. I do? Yeah. You guys have Amazon Prime. That's when you get packages or you send stuff. Like you pay for Amazon Prime. I'm positive. And he's like, but that so my Amazon prime would get me the games. I'm like, yeah, you have Amazon prime, which would allow you to use Amazon prime to then watch the game on your Amazon Prime. So we walked through this and my wife and I were on speaker just like ridiculing him.
- [118:09]
B
Oh, that's not nice.
- [118:10]
A
No. We love to make fun of my dad, but I realized they should be doing PSAs. I really think they should. Amazon prime should have a whole ad campaign like, the game is on Amazon prime, and guess what? You have it. The more you know you actually paid
- [118:27]
B
for it, the more you know you
- [118:29]
A
already have Amazon Prime. Go to it, hear the button. Then look, the game is going to be on there. You don't have to steal it from your kids. So I just. The streamers things. It's been really rocky this first year not knowing what games are on. I went to 3 before I landed on ESPN for the first game today. It's like a little game show.
- [118:49]
B
My 83 year old father has figured it out. They come over for dinner at least once a week and I think they came Thursday. And he was like, hey, are the, are all the games on prime tonight? And I was like, yeah, it's like, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it a try. See, see, see how I. See how, how it goes? I'm like, okay, you don't, you don't have to call. My, My younger sister is the one who usually does the.
- [119:13]
A
Gets a little dicey.
- [119:14]
B
No, she does the tech aid to the parents. Like, I can't get on the zoom kind of stuff. But he figured it out and was watching the games.
- [119:22]
A
I think it's been a real problem in bars because I mentioned this on a podcast about bars and hotels recently and got a few emails from people who were talking about being at a crowded bar with people telling the bartender to put on Amazon and just them just basically doing the Borat. Like,
- [119:42]
B
everyone will get there.
- [119:43]
A
We'll all get there at some point. It's just this was how it was gonna go. But yeah. So to the parents out there, the older parents, you probably have Amazon Prime.
- [119:53]
B
Stick with it.
- [119:54]
A
Yeah, stick with it. It's gonna happen. Okay, Sacklow, your podcast Tuesday morning. Yes.
- [119:59]
B
Okay.
- [120:00]
A
And then you're going to the MSG with Bobby Bakala and AJ Soprano on Tuesday night.
- [120:05]
B
That's. It's the plan.
- [120:06]
A
That sounds great. All right, good to see you. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. I'm coming back on Tuesday with another podcast, plus rewatchables Ghostbusters Monday. Buckle up. Get ready for that one. Thanks, everybody. Thanks to Netflix, too. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 on President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800- Gamble or 1-800-My reset, call 888-7977, visit ccpg.orgchatincenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.