The Bill Simmons Podcast Episode: Giannis Trade Advice, Duncan Vs. Kobe, Ohtani Vs. the Babe, the Frugal-ish Yankees, and Life After ‘First Take’ With Max Kellerman Date: December 3, 2025 Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Max Kellerman

Overview

In this episode, Bill Simmons welcomes Max Kellerman, making his sports media return after two years away from platforms like “First Take.” The two dive deep into NBA trade rumors and franchise dysfunction (hello, Clippers!), the never-ending NBA “GOAT” debates (Duncan vs. Kobe, Curry vs. LeBron), the ascendance of the new baseball elite and Ohtani’s real place in history, the Yankees’ uneasy relationship with big spending, Mahomes and the evolving NFL “greatest ever” convo, how to do debate television, and…of course…boxing. Plus, Max opens up about his ESPN exit and what’s next.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Clippers’ “Snakebit” Era and NBA Dysfunction

Starts ~05:00

• Simmons and Kellerman dissect the ongoing disaster that is the Clippers, calling them the most “tortured, jinxed NBA franchise.”
  • Simmons: “This is the darkest, snakebit moment they’ve ever had.” (06:01)
  • Harden’s disastrous minus-39 stat, uncertainty around Kawhi, old unreliable veterans, and failed roster bets.
  • The OKC trade and the devastating long-term impact of losing Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.
• Debate over undervalued “glue guys”: Norman Powell vs. Bradley Beal, why some teams ignore productive, non-star players.
• The mentality of cap circumvention and the Clippers’ failed “aspiration scandal.”

Notable Quote:
Kellerman: “Wherever Jerry West goes, they win... The Clippers? It doesn’t matter who you bring in.” (07:15)

2. OKC’s Rise, Giannis Trade Rumors & Strategic NBA Patience

Starts ~13:00, returns at ~41:45

• OKC Thunder are praised as the league’s new model – deep, young, perhaps unstoppable.
  • “They might go like 74-8.” —Simmons (13:33)
• Discussion of how math, point differential, and environment (Rich Paul’s “sleepy town” theory) inform playoff results.
• Giannis Antetokounmpo Trade Speculation:
  • Is it worth trying to “catch” OKC or just build patiently?
  • Deep-dive into what a Giannis trade to Atlanta or San Antonio would look like, and why San Antonio is the “brain breaker” fit.

Notable Quote:
Kellerman: “If I’m San Antonio, I’m doing whatever it takes to get Giannis…That’s what I’m rooting for to happen.” (44:43)

3. Anthony Davis’ Trade Value and the Power Forward Lineage: AD vs. Duncan

Starts ~22:19, with deeper GOAT arguments from ~24:26, and returns ~63:00

• Should the Lakers trade AD before his value dips further?
• Davis’ career: “There was a point, not all that long ago, where it was like, can AD replace Tim Duncan as the greatest power forward who ever lived?” —Kellerman (24:32)
• The “crest” and “inflection points” of athletic career reputations; single moments that change everything (ex: Eli Manning’s playoff runs, Mike Tyson’s aura)

4. Clutch Genes and Athletic Psychology—Eli Manning, Steph Curry, Kobe Bryant

Starts ~27:28 and woven throughout

• Max makes the Hall of Fame case for Eli Manning via Nate Silver’s “most clutch” analysis.
• Boxing as the ultimate sport of moment-driven reputation shift.
• In-depth look at Curry’s 2016 collapse, the heavy mental tax of streaks (Golden State 2016, Pats 2007, Heat 2013), and what makes a player “have it” in huge moments.
• Discussion of “Defend your meme” and the nuances of how athletes are remembered/overrated/underrated by specific moments.

5. Kobe vs. Duncan, Bird vs. Jokic, and the NBA’s Greatest Players

Starts ~63:00

• Where do Kobe and Duncan rank? Simmons—“Duncan’s seventh and I don’t think it’s debatable.” (63:24)
• Max: “Kobe is the closest thing we’ve seen to Jordan…He was basically Michael Jordan minus a hair. But damn, that’s good.” (73:35)
• Jokic praised as perhaps the most purely impactful offensive player, but with caveats (“Getting into the all-time top 8 is tough with just one title.”)
• Thought experiments: Bird’s limited prime vs. Jokic’s skills, how to weigh eras in “GOAT” discussions.

6. Baseball’s Big Picture: Ohtani vs. Babe Ruth, Yankees’ Small-Market Thinking

Starts ~91:09, Ohtani at ~91:26

• Yankees’ owner Hal Steinbrenner is “running it like a business that he needs to profit from,” no longer the spiritual inheritor of Yankee grandeur.
• Comparison to the Dodgers’ “all-in” model (Betts, Freeman, Yamamoto).
• Ohtani debate: “What Ohtani is doing is harder than what Babe Ruth did in his day and age. But to suggest that Ohtani is the greatest player of all time…he’s not the best hitter in the game. Judge is objectively, much, much better.” (91:47)
• Ruth’s insane statistical margin and postseason pitching are “not replicable by Ohtani.”

Notable Quote:
Kellerman: “To say you’re the Michael Jordan of a sport doesn’t simply mean you’re the greatest of all time. You put your eyeballs on that guy and you say: that looks different, I haven’t seen that before. Then the stats back it up. Then the wins back it up.” (102:11)

7. PEDs and the Baseball Hall of Fame

Starts ~95:48

• Max: “If it is very obvious when the person started juicing and it’s in the statistical record… that is more compelling evidence than a receipt from BALCO.”
• Bonds and Clemens: HOF “in, based on their careers pre-PED jump”; McGwire and Sosa: “Absolutely not.”
• Simmons’ solution: “Just put it on the plaque.”

8. NFL “Greatest Ever” QBs, Mahomes’ Path, and Brady vs. Belichick

Starts ~102:04

• Mahomes has the eye test + stats + wins combo reminiscent of “MJ in football,” but — “He’s not near Brady. Brady beat him head-to-head, even though Mahomes didn’t have an offensive line.” (103:00)
• The subtleties of “clutch”: “Brady, like Jeter and Kobe, were clutch because they stayed themselves under pressure. But then, halfway through his career, Brady hit that Jordan/Rivera tier where he got way better in big moments.” (105:01)
• Belichick vs. Brady: Consensus—Belichick in the 2000s, Brady in the 2010s (see 110:12–111:03)
• Montana’s legacy: “Brady outlasted Montana, but at their best, fate of the universe on the line—I don’t think I’m taking Brady over Montana.” (108:02)

9. Life After First Take: How Debate TV Really Works

Starts ~114:18

• Max addresses his ESPN departure, noting the “dynamic” of debate TV: “If you have 12 topics a day and 12 hot takes, you’re insane.” (121:12)
• The need to drill down for authentic disagreement: “A counterintuitive take would be: the best shooter on the Warriors is Klay Thompson, not Steph. But you better actually believe it.” (123:14)
• “Stephen A [Smith] almost never gives a counterintuitive take… His job is to be the big reactor, whereas I’m supposed to have the controversial opinion.”

10. Boxing, Sports Moments, and Max’s Return to Podcasting

Starts ~136:30, intensive at 138:29–149:10

• Why Terence Crawford, Canelo, and Joshua mean so much to boxing’s drawing power today.
• The what-ifs of boxing lore: Roy Jones as the “greatest that never was” scenario post-Ruiz.
• Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Tommy Hearns: “That was the highest level of boxing we’ve ever seen.”
• The “career narrative hinge”—how a single lost win (Hagler-Leonard) or shift defines legacies in both boxing and team sports.

11. Announcement: “Game Over with Max & Rich Paul” Podcast

Starts ~150:03

• Max’s new pod with Rich Paul launches next week on The Ringer, with a three-day-a-week schedule and a rotating guest lineup. Chemistry with Rich is “brutal in the best way”—expect behind-the-scenes NBA and boxing insight, honest conversations, and big voices.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Simmons: “This trade is like VD. It won’t end. Seven years of pain.” (21:16, re: Clippers-OKC swap)
• Kellerman: “You gotta bring ass to get ass.” (45:44, on trading for Giannis)
• On the Knicks: “The Knicks will never win a championship when their best player is 6ft tall… Since the bad boy Pistons, no one has.” (48:03)
• On Jeter/Brady/Kobe: “They’re clutch because they stayed themselves under pressure. But Brady eventually became Jordan-level.” (105:01)
• On Yankees’ current state: “They’re failing. They are a generic powerhouse team every year, but that is not the New York Yankees.” (79:10)
• On Ohtani-Ruth: “What Ohtani’s doing is harder…but Babe Ruth was so much better at the plate than everyone else. It’s not close.” (93:44)
• On hot takes: “If there are 12 topics a day and you have 12 hot takes…you are insane.” (121:12)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Clippers misery / NBA state: 05:00–19:00
• OKC, Giannis trade strategy: 13:00–24:00, 41:45–46:30
• Davis, Duncan, and NBA GOAT debates: 22:19–25:51, ~63:00–71:00
• Clutch athletes, Curry/LeBron/Kobe: 27:28–39:01
• Ohtani vs. Ruth, Yankees economics: 91:09–96:13
• PEDs in baseball, Hall of Fame: 95:48–100:09
• NFL Mahomes, GOATs, and Brady vs. Belichick: 102:04–113:00
• First Take/ESPN/TV debates: 114:18–124:48
• Boxing and “career moment” narratives: 136:30–149:10
• Announcement / Max & Rich Paul podcast details: 150:03–153:38

Tone and Language

Conversational, witty, and often self-deprecating sports banter—maximalist and entertaining. Both Simmons and Kellerman bring humor, personal stories, and a sense of sports history, arguing passionately but thoughtfully. Even (especially) the digressions are loaded with insight and “aha” moments.

For Fans: If you missed this episode, you’ll walk away with new ways to argue the NBA’s “GOAT”s, a better understanding of modern front office strategies, an appreciation of the Giants’ Eli Manning, and some real talk about the frustrating economics of baseball’s giants. And, if you’re a boxing fan, a rare treat—two sports obsessives taking the old fights as seriously as the new ones.

[End of Summary]