Giannis Trade Advice, Duncan Vs. Kobe, Ohtani Vs. the Babe, the Frugal-ish Yankees, and Life After ‘First Take’ With Max Kellerman

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast Episode: Giannis Trade Advice, Duncan Vs. Kobe, Ohtani Vs. the Babe, the Frugal-ish Yankees, and Life After ‘First Take’ With Max Kellerman Date: December 3, 2025 Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Max Kellerman

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Overview

In this episode, Bill Simmons welcomes Max Kellerman, making his sports media return after two years away from platforms like “First Take.” The two dive deep into NBA trade rumors and franchise dysfunction (hello, Clippers!), the never-ending NBA “GOAT” debates (Duncan vs. Kobe, Curry vs. LeBron), the ascendance of the new baseball elite and Ohtani’s real place in history, the Yankees’ uneasy relationship with big spending, Mahomes and the evolving NFL “greatest ever” convo, how to do debate television, and…of course…boxing. Plus, Max opens up about his ESPN exit and what’s next.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Clippers’ “Snakebit” Era and NBA Dysfunction

Starts ~05:00

• Simmons and Kellerman dissect the ongoing disaster that is the Clippers, calling them the most “tortured, jinxed NBA franchise.”
  • Simmons: “This is the darkest, snakebit moment they’ve ever had.” (06:01)
  • Harden’s disastrous minus-39 stat, uncertainty around Kawhi, old unreliable veterans, and failed roster bets.
  • The OKC trade and the devastating long-term impact of losing Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.
• Debate over undervalued “glue guys”: Norman Powell vs. Bradley Beal, why some teams ignore productive, non-star players.
• The mentality of cap circumvention and the Clippers’ failed “aspiration scandal.”

Notable Quote:
Kellerman: “Wherever Jerry West goes, they win... The Clippers? It doesn’t matter who you bring in.” (07:15)

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2. OKC’s Rise, Giannis Trade Rumors & Strategic NBA Patience

Starts ~13:00, returns at ~41:45

• OKC Thunder are praised as the league’s new model – deep, young, perhaps unstoppable.
  • “They might go like 74-8.” —Simmons (13:33)
• Discussion of how math, point differential, and environment (Rich Paul’s “sleepy town” theory) inform playoff results.
• Giannis Antetokounmpo Trade Speculation:
  • Is it worth trying to “catch” OKC or just build patiently?
  • Deep-dive into what a Giannis trade to Atlanta or San Antonio would look like, and why San Antonio is the “brain breaker” fit.

Notable Quote:
Kellerman: “If I’m San Antonio, I’m doing whatever it takes to get Giannis…That’s what I’m rooting for to happen.” (44:43)

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3. Anthony Davis’ Trade Value and the Power Forward Lineage: AD vs. Duncan

Starts ~22:19, with deeper GOAT arguments from ~24:26, and returns ~63:00

• Should the Lakers trade AD before his value dips further?
• Davis’ career: “There was a point, not all that long ago, where it was like, can AD replace Tim Duncan as the greatest power forward who ever lived?” —Kellerman (24:32)
• The “crest” and “inflection points” of athletic career reputations; single moments that change everything (ex: Eli Manning’s playoff runs, Mike Tyson’s aura)

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4. Clutch Genes and Athletic Psychology—Eli Manning, Steph Curry, Kobe Bryant

Starts ~27:28 and woven throughout

• Max makes the Hall of Fame case for Eli Manning via Nate Silver’s “most clutch” analysis.
• Boxing as the ultimate sport of moment-driven reputation shift.
• In-depth look at Curry’s 2016 collapse, the heavy mental tax of streaks (Golden State 2016, Pats 2007, Heat 2013), and what makes a player “have it” in huge moments.
• Discussion of “Defend your meme” and the nuances of how athletes are remembered/overrated/underrated by specific moments.

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5. Kobe vs. Duncan, Bird vs. Jokic, and the NBA’s Greatest Players

Starts ~63:00

• Where do Kobe and Duncan rank? Simmons—“Duncan’s seventh and I don’t think it’s debatable.” (63:24)
• Max: “Kobe is the closest thing we’ve seen to Jordan…He was basically Michael Jordan minus a hair. But damn, that’s good.” (73:35)
• Jokic praised as perhaps the most purely impactful offensive player, but with caveats (“Getting into the all-time top 8 is tough with just one title.”)
• Thought experiments: Bird’s limited prime vs. Jokic’s skills, how to weigh eras in “GOAT” discussions.

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6. Baseball’s Big Picture: Ohtani vs. Babe Ruth, Yankees’ Small-Market Thinking

Starts ~91:09, Ohtani at ~91:26

• Yankees’ owner Hal Steinbrenner is “running it like a business that he needs to profit from,” no longer the spiritual inheritor of Yankee grandeur.
• Comparison to the Dodgers’ “all-in” model (Betts, Freeman, Yamamoto).
• Ohtani debate: “What Ohtani is doing is harder than what Babe Ruth did in his day and age. But to suggest that Ohtani is the greatest player of all time…he’s not the best hitter in the game. Judge is objectively, much, much better.” (91:47)
• Ruth’s insane statistical margin and postseason pitching are “not replicable by Ohtani.”

Notable Quote:
Kellerman: “To say you’re the Michael Jordan of a sport doesn’t simply mean you’re the greatest of all time. You put your eyeballs on that guy and you say: that looks different, I haven’t seen that before. Then the stats back it up. Then the wins back it up.” (102:11)

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7. PEDs and the Baseball Hall of Fame

Starts ~95:48

• Max: “If it is very obvious when the person started juicing and it’s in the statistical record… that is more compelling evidence than a receipt from BALCO.”
• Bonds and Clemens: HOF “in, based on their careers pre-PED jump”; McGwire and Sosa: “Absolutely not.”
• Simmons’ solution: “Just put it on the plaque.”

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8. NFL “Greatest Ever” QBs, Mahomes’ Path, and Brady vs. Belichick

Starts ~102:04

• Mahomes has the eye test + stats + wins combo reminiscent of “MJ in football,” but — “He’s not near Brady. Brady beat him head-to-head, even though Mahomes didn’t have an offensive line.” (103:00)
• The subtleties of “clutch”: “Brady, like Jeter and Kobe, were clutch because they stayed themselves under pressure. But then, halfway through his career, Brady hit that Jordan/Rivera tier where he got way better in big moments.” (105:01)
• Belichick vs. Brady: Consensus—Belichick in the 2000s, Brady in the 2010s (see 110:12–111:03)
• Montana’s legacy: “Brady outlasted Montana, but at their best, fate of the universe on the line—I don’t think I’m taking Brady over Montana.” (108:02)

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9. Life After First Take: How Debate TV Really Works

Starts ~114:18

• Max addresses his ESPN departure, noting the “dynamic” of debate TV: “If you have 12 topics a day and 12 hot takes, you’re insane.” (121:12)
• The need to drill down for authentic disagreement: “A counterintuitive take would be: the best shooter on the Warriors is Klay Thompson, not Steph. But you better actually believe it.” (123:14)
• “Stephen A [Smith] almost never gives a counterintuitive take… His job is to be the big reactor, whereas I’m supposed to have the controversial opinion.”

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10. Boxing, Sports Moments, and Max’s Return to Podcasting

Starts ~136:30, intensive at 138:29–149:10

• Why Terence Crawford, Canelo, and Joshua mean so much to boxing’s drawing power today.
• The what-ifs of boxing lore: Roy Jones as the “greatest that never was” scenario post-Ruiz.
• Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Tommy Hearns: “That was the highest level of boxing we’ve ever seen.”
• The “career narrative hinge”—how a single lost win (Hagler-Leonard) or shift defines legacies in both boxing and team sports.

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11. Announcement: “Game Over with Max & Rich Paul” Podcast

Starts ~150:03

• Max’s new pod with Rich Paul launches next week on The Ringer, with a three-day-a-week schedule and a rotating guest lineup. Chemistry with Rich is “brutal in the best way”—expect behind-the-scenes NBA and boxing insight, honest conversations, and big voices.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Simmons: “This trade is like VD. It won’t end. Seven years of pain.” (21:16, re: Clippers-OKC swap)
• Kellerman: “You gotta bring ass to get ass.” (45:44, on trading for Giannis)
• On the Knicks: “The Knicks will never win a championship when their best player is 6ft tall… Since the bad boy Pistons, no one has.” (48:03)
• On Jeter/Brady/Kobe: “They’re clutch because they stayed themselves under pressure. But Brady eventually became Jordan-level.” (105:01)
• On Yankees’ current state: “They’re failing. They are a generic powerhouse team every year, but that is not the New York Yankees.” (79:10)
• On Ohtani-Ruth: “What Ohtani’s doing is harder…but Babe Ruth was so much better at the plate than everyone else. It’s not close.” (93:44)
• On hot takes: “If there are 12 topics a day and you have 12 hot takes…you are insane.” (121:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Clippers misery / NBA state: 05:00–19:00
• OKC, Giannis trade strategy: 13:00–24:00, 41:45–46:30
• Davis, Duncan, and NBA GOAT debates: 22:19–25:51, ~63:00–71:00
• Clutch athletes, Curry/LeBron/Kobe: 27:28–39:01
• Ohtani vs. Ruth, Yankees economics: 91:09–96:13
• PEDs in baseball, Hall of Fame: 95:48–100:09
• NFL Mahomes, GOATs, and Brady vs. Belichick: 102:04–113:00
• First Take/ESPN/TV debates: 114:18–124:48
• Boxing and “career moment” narratives: 136:30–149:10
• Announcement / Max & Rich Paul podcast details: 150:03–153:38

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Tone and Language

Conversational, witty, and often self-deprecating sports banter—maximalist and entertaining. Both Simmons and Kellerman bring humor, personal stories, and a sense of sports history, arguing passionately but thoughtfully. Even (especially) the digressions are loaded with insight and “aha” moments.

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For Fans: If you missed this episode, you’ll walk away with new ways to argue the NBA’s “GOAT”s, a better understanding of modern front office strategies, an appreciation of the Giants’ Eli Manning, and some real talk about the frustrating economics of baseball’s giants. And, if you’re a boxing fan, a rare treat—two sports obsessives taking the old fights as seriously as the new ones.

[End of Summary]

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, a crisp, refreshing beer with only 95 calories. And just like some of the best plays we've seen on the court throughout the NBA Cup, Ultra is best served cold. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action. With exclusive prizes and courtside tickets, Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobaltra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26 no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official [e-mail] courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where you can find a new episode of the Rewatchables we put up last night. Rocky ii. It was the last of the Rocky movies. We did Rocky III, Rocky IV, Rocky 1, Rocky II. Somehow last. But it makes sense because it's probably the most polarizing one. Even though me and Chris Ryan, Ben Lathan, we all love it. Unbelievable last 30 minutes. But we talk a lot about Stallone and boxing movies and a really, really, really fun podcast so you can check that out. You can watch it, watch it on Spotify, you can listen to it wherever you get podcasts. So that's it. Rocky ii. I'm not sure what's going to happen for next weekend. I will tip you off on the movie maybe on Thursday. Coming up on this podcast. Max Kellerman has been itching to talk sports for basically almost two years. I think this is the first time he's been on a platform since 2023. Just getting takes off. We had a lot to catch up on. He is going to be launching a new podcast with Rich Paul next week. We'll have the feed. I'll give you the heads up on Thursday's pod but you can subscribe to it. It's launching next week. It's going to be called Game over with Max Comer and Rich Paul and we're going to be doing it three days a week. I'm very excited about it but it's great to have Max. Always wanted to work with him. Really excited to pod with him every once in a while. We had a lot to catch up on. We talk about possible Giannis trades, ad, what's happening in basketball, goat arguments, what's going to happen in football this year, what happened with Max at the end There at espn, we go all over the place. And of course, had to end with some boxing because every time I'm with Max, I got to talk boxing. So one other thing. The Music Box series is coming back on HBO this week. We have a great documentary about Jeff Buckley directed by Amy Berg. It's awesome. So that's going to be on HBO on Thursday night and then will be available on HBO Max all weekend. So get ready. Especially if you love Jeff Buckley, but I think even if you don't even know who he is, I think this is a really, really good documentary. So excited to have this back. Four documentaries from us this month. This is the first one, so please check that out when it's up. All right, we're going to take a break. Pearl Jam and then Max. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field, but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, Tuesday morning, Max Kellerman is here. This is the first time you have talked sports on a platform other than you did some boxing for Netflix. Yeah, you're talking boxing on a podcast, but this is. You've been itching to go.

[B]

It's, you know, when you have an arm waving opinion about everything and you're on the sidelines for two years watching stuff, the news cycle is relentless. And it makes this job amazing because, like, you think of someone like Howard Stern, what he has to do. His show is not based around the news. They have a little segment. They have to create something from nothing every day. It's incredible, right, that where we have.

[A]

Like Giannis and the Clippers, we wake.

[B]

Up in the morning, read the paper, and the whole outline is already there for you. So, like, that's every single day. And it's like, oh, my God. And so, you know, my family is sick of hearing about this stuff.

[A]

Well, I have. We're going to do a segment later. All the things you're mad you missed out on over the last two years. We'll also talk a little about. You've never really talked about how you left and all that. We can go into it a tiny bit. I want to go topical at the top, though, because we have the weirdest NFL season we've had in a while, maybe since like 2008. We have all hell breaking loose in the NBA. I haven't talked NBA on this podcast in a week since before Thanksgiving. The, the honest trade stuff, I think has officially arrived.

[B]

He's deleting his social media.

[A]

Yeah, and they don't look good. And this is the time. And there's some teams we could talk about. And then this Clippers thing compared to the Lakers thing. And I kind of want to start with the Clippers.

[B]

Of course you do.

[A]

Well, here's why I really think this is like the most tortured, jinxed NBA franchise we've probably had. Even dating back to the Buffalo Braves, easily. And this is the darkest snake bit.

[B]

They're snake bit.

[A]

This is the darkest moment they've ever had. And think of all the knee injuries and terrible, terrible things. Terrible trades they've made. They've been the. The black sheep little brother for the Lakers.

[B]

For even in the window when Kobe was sucking up the salary cap and no one wanted to play for the Lakers and they had Blake and. And they make the Chris Paul trade and could never get. There's the window. This is worse.

[A]

This is worse. So combo of the least likable, least successful team you could put together. Like old unreliable vets who don't want to be there. Harden was a minus 39 on Sunday night. Kawhi, you don't know what he's going to play. So they just had this team that I thought was the third best team in the league last year and now.

[B]

Is 5 and 6, 52 wins last year. Yeah.

[A]

And you know, toe to toe with Denver. I thought it went OKC Denver. And then I would say Quipper's third.

[B]

Who knew? Like, okay, so this is what's crazy about the Clippers. This is why you just say snake bit. Okay. The sports, the basketball gods just don't like them. Yeah, personnel. Like when I think about a franchise and whether it's going to be healthy and good or not, first I think about human resources, Right? So, for example, Jerry west spreads his pixie ducks dust over the Lakers and they win forever. And then he goes to Memphis and they get good. Then he comes back to the Lakers and they're great again. And then he goes up to Golden State and I said on LA radio at the time, the battle of the 5 freeway has begun because Jerry west went to Golden State. They're going to be good.

[A]

Now that never caught on. You try to trademark it just didn't Work. It didn't happen.

[B]

But because the Lakers didn't hold up their end of the deal, right. But the warriors became a championship team. Now Jerry west, even if that's just correlation and it's lazy, that's what we do in sports and team sports. You have to make correlation, right? You don't know if it's exactly causal but you, you correlate it. Wherever this guy goes, they win. Robert Ori always hits big shots in the, in the playoffs and they always win championships and they get Jerry west, right? Like that's a good idea. The Clippers doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you bring in the when they Ty Lou that's oh, that's the right guy, right? It doesn't matter.

[A]

So they get Chris Paul after the Lakers trade gets vetoed and it seems like the home run of all time.

[B]

And it doesn't matter in the end. Like they're the Lakers are raising championship banners and the Clippers are raising like second round. What are they going to. So in this case what's crazy is is is Norman Powell just much better than Bradley Beal, right? Like does do talent of Al. Has anyone ever thought that who watched basketball?

[A]

Apparently he is the reasons never I, I so I picked the Clippers to go over it because just because I thought they were really good last year. The Beal Collins for Powell like that shouldn't have swung it this much. But they also got old. But at the Powell thing it was like he had an extension coming and it seemed like they were afraid to pay him because they were trying to keep all this cap space for three years from now. But he was the third best guy in the team.

[B]

Was he the second round pick?

[A]

No, they got him from. He might have been at Toronto, but.

[B]

I mean I think he went in the second round and I think guys like that there's this, there's an unwillingness to believe that they actually everyone couldn't have been that wrong. Right? I don't know. Bradley Beals on Phoenix, they're really bad. He's no longer on Phoenix, but the new team he's on is really bad. Norman Powell's on the Clippers. They're really good and they play defense and everything. By the way, he's no longer there. They're really bad. Miami is kind of good and Miami loves him. So some.

[A]

And by the way, the Clipper fans loved him. He was a guy that he would come in, he'd make two shots and you could feel a buzz in the arena and he Just was different than these Hard and Leonard guys. They have. I think some of it is when I watch them and I. And I'm kicking myself that I thought they were going to be as good because they're old. But the, the personality of the team, like, it's just like this quiet team. Like watching them in Miami last night, that was when Harden had the minus 39 last night.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was one of those games where it's like, this is going to be a loss. Like, they've probably flew into Miami the night before. Miami's pals can be fired up this. And of course, they're down 30 in the third quarter.

[B]

Styles make fights like if you're a veteran slow team against the team that suddenly is playing fast and running up and down.

[A]

They're playing five out, just trying to move.

[B]

So you're on the road in Miami. Old slow team, fast team. It's just bad.

[A]

But think about. So they have this aspiration scandal that's hugely embarrassing that they're probably gonna get penalized for.

[B]

They have Pablo good now, by the way.

[A]

Yeah, Pablo, they are good.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah, he came on here, he's like.

[B]

It'S like Scooby Doo or something, right? He like, pablo's my dude, but like, dude, who are you, Scooby? Like, if I. We would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids. Dude, they did an episode last year on Ishbia. Right? Right.

[A]

Phoenix stunk and then so you think Pablo is.

[B]

He's also finding out about these guys and then he found out about the Clippers. They stink. And it's like so, so.

[A]

Well, so that's also a bad way to go into a season with the massive scandal, which is the part I underrated, no question.

[B]

I mean, like, the money will find its way to the floor. It'll find its way to competition. There were these huge TV deals and they're. They're not only salary caps, but essentially hard caps because of the aprons and everything. And so coaches salaries exploded because the. Their people are competitive. They want the product on the floor to be as good as possible. And they will find out ways. If there's a cap and you have a gung ho billionaire owner, they'll find out ways to circumvent the cap, if possible. I mean, Jerry Jones, who ushered in the cap in football, in the NFL, immediately circumvented it day one. He's like, okay, they voted on it. Great. We have a salary cap now we have Deion Sanders Wait, wait, how's that possible? Well, we're prorating money over time and blah, blah, blah. And so it's not unpredictable that that would happen. It's unethical, like in a strict sense. But I don't really care as a fan. If I'm a Clippers fan, I'd be like, great, my owner's trying to win and circumvent the cap to make us better.

[A]

Well, that's. Didn't work.

[B]

It. It not. Not only did it not work, but it was. It shrouded the season.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With bad vibes to start.

[A]

Man, that'd be funny if that was Adam Silver's penalties. Like, you know, I was going to penalize these guys, but it ruined their season and now they have to give their pick to okc. And we're now in this James Worthy, Len Bias situation with okc. J. James Worthy worked out. It ended up winning them. I think three more titles was badass. Was the opposite. But I think if you know that that's a whole going down that road, that would have been multiple titles for.

[B]

The good for Presti, though, because for so many years he was clearly better than almost everybody else.

[A]

But handicapped by the dumb Harden trade was always the yeah, but with him. Yeah, right.

[B]

For years. Let's reverse the yeah, but. Yeah, but they still were really good. They just couldn't get over the hump. And now he's, you know, you can always pick on a sucker and now he's. And he's ruthless about it. And it has one of the best teams ever, it seems, and is about to get a lot better. It's crazy.

[A]

Well, that's what I wonder with when I look at like we're talking about like Giannis and A.D. all these dudes, like, is it even worth it to. To chase okc where okc, who just went 20 and one basically without jalen Williams, he finally came back, you know, last weekend. But they might go like 74 and 8. They're going to have the best net rating probably in the history of the league.

[B]

If Indiana's healthy last year, if Indiana's healthy last year, are you sure that OKC beats them?

[A]

It's an interesting question about that Game seven, because the thing with okc, I always worry about these young teams when the pressure gets super hot, what's going to happen? And Indiana came out was throwing haymakers. Even like what. What was it tied at halftime even after Hal Burton left.

[B]

But it's crazy. And he was clutch and Rich told me. Rich Paul was telling me at the time. Your future partner at the ringer. Yes. Like any. Any moment now. Yeah. He was telling me at the time. So I was like, rich, this isn't that hard. Look at the point differential. They're squashing the league like in the question was it was them or the Cavs. And I'm like, it's okay.

[A]

See the Celtics argument the year before?

[B]

Yeah, same.

[A]

At some point you got to trust the math. They're winning by 11 points a game.

[B]

They're literally crushing everyone. And his point was. Yeah, but they play in okc. You gotta take some points off. Why? It's a sleepy town. Why would you take points off for that? You would think your players are getting rest when they get to OKC and everything said there's no energy when you get there. The teams that they're gonna face are not energized. Like they're already thinking, well, you know, in a couple nights we're gonna be in LA and we're gonna do this and this and this. And there's no juice.

[A]

Is this going to be part of the behind the curtain? When you have the pod with Rich, he's going to take us behind the scenes of the mentality of NBA road trips where it's like Miami is the opposite.

[B]

He can't help it. If you talk to Rich Paul for long enough, you will hear something super interesting based on his experience, like information that other people don't have. And from a very educated point of view that you have never heard before, you'll hear something new. Like, I hadn't heard that really. But watching the playoffs, Indiana, who was a team that kind of played the most like themselves, I thought, through the.

[A]

Playoffs and had a little bit of.

[B]

A horseshoe, no question.

[A]

But in a good way.

[B]

No question.

[A]

They just, they had a way of good things were happening to them at the right times or series.

[B]

Yeah, they seem charmed.

[A]

Charmed.

[B]

But that OKC team, I don't know. I'm not 100% convinced that they win the whole thing if Halliburton's in that game. I don't know.

[A]

Well, it turns out Jalen Williams was playing hurt the whole playoffs. They didn't tell us. Cause he, he was kind of a little more inconsistent than he usually was. But.

[B]

But when your best player isn't on the floor, you know, and it's still close. The other interesting thing you brought up, the Celtics and then. And then okc and I wonder if this is going to be true going forward. They both had super tall players playing real minutes. Who are actually really good. Right, Right. Like Chris Staps Porzingis. When the Celtics acquire, oh, we're giving up our identity. Marcus Smart. I'm like, are you kidding? You got a seven foot million guy who can actually play, who's joining this team now if he's healthy? It's a rap.

[A]

And they had Horford and they had Cornette and Tatum, who's, you know, the. One of the top 15 rebounders in the league on top, all the other stuff.

[B]

How are you going to beat him? And the answer was, you couldn't. And then the same thing last year with Chet. It was like. So that was one of my arguments with Rich when I thought OKC would win. I'm like, they're crushing everyone. They're about to get some version of Wemby on the team. Right. Like, this guy's come on. And I wonder if that, if that's something that championship teams are going to need going forward. It's only two years. It's not a pattern yet. Right.

[A]

Well, we haven't had this in a while. Where there's a team. I mean, Maybe since the 2017 warriors, where there's a team, it's like, whoa, those guys are up here. Like, is it even. Remember that year, teams were a little afraid to chase them until. Really, until Durant left and then all hell broke loose in the, in the next summer.

[B]

But if the spurs get Giannis.

[A]

So let's talk about it, because I had some. I had some Giannis stuff. I guess we don't need to talk about the Clippers, as depressing as it is. I mean, no, it's just like, I just. There's no outs and they don't have their pick and you're.

[B]

You're just, you're just in a tight spot.

[A]

Did you like the trade when it happened?

[B]

Uh, hold on. Which trade are we talking about?

[A]

Kawhi and Paul George, basically.

[B]

I didn't, I didn't like. Well, I understood the logic. I don't think I would have done it, but I understood the logic because it seemed like it was a package deal. And Bomber, I think, saw an opening because of the state of the Lakers, where we can take over. And Kawhi had just won an mvp, a Finals MVP on his second team. Is he going to win a Finals MVP on his third team, look like the best player in the world and.

[A]

Try to not have the Lakers get him? Seemed to be a huge part of it. I liked everything about it except the shape piece, ironically, of course. I just. Because I thought, and I think I said this at the time, I still defended the trade. I was like, I get why they did it. You get these two guys. And Paul George was awesome the year before. So they're getting like two of the best 10 guys in the league. But it was very similar to the Celtics in 07 when we got KG, I say we like him on the team, but we got KG and they really wanted Rondo. And if you go back and you read about the reports of that, it was Rondo was the stickler and the Celtics wouldn't bend on Rondo. And then finally Minnesota was like, all right, can you give us. Float us another pick? Or whatever it was. And they were able to keep Rondo. And they don't win the OA title without Rondo. And I always thought it was. I remember talking to Doc about this a couple years ago. I always thought it was weird that they were going to try to win the title with Paul George and Kawhi, but then not have Shay as a piece of it. But Presti, he was smart. He's like, no, Shea has to be in the trade or I'm not doing it.

[B]

Because Presby is like the anti Nick, you know, Like, I think about the Carmelo trade, where it's well known Carmelo's only good. Like, he had all the leverage, really. I'm only going to go to the Knicks.

[A]

And when he gutted their Danlo and.

[B]

Yeah, and the Knicks were like, no, what's his name, the GM from the Bronx at the time?

[A]

Donnie Walsh.

[B]

Donnie Walsh is playing poker, right? Like, yeah. And then, and then Dolan gets involved. Like, wait, the grown ups are doing this? Please don't, don't do this. And don't say, oh, you have to get Carmelo. And suddenly everybody's in the deal. Right. Presti is really smart. And the thing the Clippers were really missing was an actual primary ball handler, not putting guys who can do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's almost like there's an obvious desire to do this. Like in baseball at first base, where, well, the most players can play first base. Therefore, they conflate that with the idea that defense isn't important at first base and you have bad defenders at first base. And it's sort of the same in the NBA where it's like sometimes you get tempted. Well, this guy can do that job, right. That's different than he should do the job. Like Draymond Green's not really the point guard. He's a guy who can do that. And he works in it and he can do it sometimes, but just because someone can doesn't mean they should. And I think the idea that they could just do it with Paul George and Kawhi, two. Two way wings, defined roles. Because, you know, Paul George is the Robin, and that Batman and Robin, it made a lot of sense. They needed.

[A]

Kawhi wanted him.

[B]

Yeah, they needed a guy to handle the ball.

[A]

I mean, really, the way to do it would have been, yo, Kawhi, just come to the Clippers. Like, we have a really good young team. We have all our picks. You just won the title. Like, what's. Just take this one slow. Because all the research now is like, he never wanted to go to the Lakers. He didn't want to play for LeBron. So it was either stay in Toronto or go. But he had already, I guess, had his mindset, maybe bought a house in LA or outside la. So maybe they could have played poker with him. They definitely could have played poker with Presti, but he was going to the Clippers. This was a gung ho. And we can keep from the Lakers. And they just threw everything in this trade that not only is it a swap this year, they get their pick next year.

[B]

Is it the most.

[A]

This trade is like. It's like vd. It won't end.

[B]

Is it the. Yeah, it's the.

[A]

It's just for seven years. It's. It's.

[B]

Is it the most? Like, where does it. Considering points of leverage on top of everything else. Pick, swaps, picks. How bad? One team window.

[A]

It's the most devastating trade in the history of the league. But you can't. You can't get mad at them for doing it, though. It's different than the Luka thing. The Luca thing is like, this trade is an abomination. We all thought it was abomination. What happened? This Clipper thing is like, all right, I get it. They've never won a title. They've never made the finals. They're trying to keep them from the Lakers. What do they care about six years from now? We got to do this now.

[B]

Fortune favors the bold. Yeah.

[A]

This was like you're at a dinner with 10 people and you're like, yeah, let's get that Japanese Kobe steak.

[B]

And.

[A]

And then the check comes and you're like, fuck.

[B]

But to. For Paul George, the leverage for the move was that the thought was Kawhi would only do it if Paul George was there. Right?

[A]

Yeah. But was that true?

[B]

I would not have, you know, I would have tested that theory. Well, easy for me to say sitting here now, but, you know.

[A]

Well, now. So we're in a similar situation with Giannis, and there's the AD piece, too. I'm in the camp. I don't think Dallas should trade A.D. i think they should keep them. They're 6 and 15. But I watch them because I like watching Flag, and I have their over for futures, and I just. I feel like it could turn around for them. The west is like, there's eight, nine playoff teams, and then it's a mess.

[B]

And they got a guy who looks like he can play a little point guard.

[A]

Yeah. Well, now Nemhard's all of a sudden playing the free agent.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then Flag can do a little bit, but I don't know. I would keep him. I would wait. I don't think he has the same kind of trade value that people think because of his age. He's got this eye thing. He's. He's been banged up. He's got a lot of miles on him, big contract. There's only a couple teams that could trade for it.

[B]

And I think it gets worse, Bill. That's the problem for them.

[A]

It's like, do you trade him before Giannis? The sweepstakes for that happen is the question. It's like, we got to move because everyone's going to be moving after Giannis. We might be out in the cold.

[B]

I think you got to move them now because there's. Look, you don't want to trade a guy when his trade value is low, and you'd like to be the consolation prize afterward. But I think they have to be resigned to the idea. We have to target something we like, see if we can get that for AD and if we can, we should do it independent of everything else, because the. The. There is the risk that AD Makes a recovery to the point where he's still playing his normal 60, 60, 60, 65 games a year at a. At a certain level. But there's also a risk that, given the physical stuff, given his age, 33 soon, that it gets worse. So.

[A]

32 and 13 last night.

[B]

Yeah. Because when he. Because he's great. You know, he really is. But I think you got, like. You got to just. It's almost like a draft where you say, I like that guy. Oh, you reached for him, but we liked that guy. And they got to figure out something they like and see if they can't get it for them. And if they can, you pull the trigger, I think.

[A]

Were you in the camp of. I can't believe this guy made NBA 75 when that happened.

[B]

Let's not forget that. You mean A.D. yeah. There was a point, not all that long ago where it was like, can AD Replace Tim Duncan as the greatest power forward who ever lived?

[A]

That was the 2018 range.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When he was wreaking havoc on the Pelicans.

[B]

He was so good. And this was before this new wave of the super talls who can play defense and do everything. And maybe it's not fair to kg, but AD Was the one. I'm like, he's guarding the pick and roll, you know, one guy and he.

[A]

Could like, just destroy. I remember there was a moment, I don't remember what game it was in the 2020 finals. Well, first of all, it seemed like he had a chance to be the finals mvp.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was wreaking havoc against Miami. And it felt like a moment like, holy shit. Like. But then his next game wasn't that good. It was. It was like it was kind of sitting there for. If he had one more like 35 and 20, there would have been a completely different conversation. He couldn't kind of get over the hump.

[B]

I love those moments.

[A]

Whereas, like, Shaq in 2000 was like, I'm here, guys.

[B]

Those are so interesting to me. Those moments of shifting perception based on this one moment. Right.

[A]

Like, I think about, well, boxing's the king of that.

[B]

Mike Tyson, the night he fought Franz Bota, knocked him out in one. It knocked him out with one shot in the fifth round. Yeah. But the. It's the interesting thing to me, even though he'd already lost to Holyfield, the interesting thing to me is before that fight, I remember thinking the public would have bet Mike Tyson into the favorite no matter who he fought in the history of boxing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right or wrong, they would have bet him that way. And after that fight, he'd have been the underdog for the first time ever. Right. So that, that both the fight, like, you can laugh because, like, who's that? But the entire perception of Mike Tyson completely changed. I even think of. Cause you, you know, you geek out on stuff like this, as I do Bobby Mercer way back in the day, who was supposed to be the next Mickey Mantle, traded for.

[A]

For Bobby Bonds eventually, which was a.

[B]

Good trade for the Yankees. And then Bonds was traded for Mickey Rivers and Ed Figaroa. But. But Bobby Mercer, if you looked at the trajectory of his career in a depressed offensive era, hadn't really ruled himself out of that yet. And then had this incredible season where because people didn't Understand advanced analytics well enough at the time. Yeah, they didn't understand quite how good he was. And he was like 25, 26. And he followed it up with a really nice season. But it wasn't like the season before. And at that moment people realized, okay, this guy is what he is. He's a sometime all Star. He's not going to be one of the greatest players ever. Those little. Those single seasons or single games or single moments that completely reshape the way we think about a guy are so interesting to me. Well, I agree with you about ad. You could pinpoint that moment and go it was cresting and no flip side.

[A]

Eli, who made the semifinalist for the hall of Fame again basically based off a couple games. And if either of those Giants games against the Pats don't go, you're a Giants fan. I'm going right in your wheelhouse now. But. But let basically like if Harrison just knocks the ball off Tyrese helmet or they call one of the five holds on the play.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They don't win that one.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And then he makes a great play to Manningham or if they just whistle.

[B]

The play dead because forward because he had five guys on him and the play was kind of over.

[A]

But it's those two now the Giants fans I know and I'm sure you're in that camp is like Eli had some huge road wins. He went into Lamb.

[B]

Here's the thing about I'll make the hall of Fame case for Eli. I think the answer is yes for Eli. And I'll. I'll start by saying he was an iron man which the durability hugely important at that position. You never had to worry he had more responsibility in his offense than anyone but Peyton or Tom Brady. Right. Like he had a huge amount of respect. He's playing in a. In an outdoor windy kind of environment. Like his stats probably would have been a little better somewhere else.

[A]

I think that's the most fair point for the Eli defenders is compare him to Breeze who get the plane the Superdome for a hundred years.

[B]

Right. Flip them. And it's not Breeze is more accurate and all that stuff. But then here it is in terms of clutch. So Nate Silver, I don't know if you remember this article. It came out five years ago. But Nate Silver wanted to see who was the most clutch quarterback ever. Right. So he.

[A]

It wasn't Tom Brady who came back from 28 to 3.

[B]

This is before Tom Brady did that actually. It's how Tom Brady kept going. But so he goes back and he wants to see what's their baseline that they achieve the kind of level that they play at normally and what do they play at in the playoffs. And then you see the difference there. And a little unfair because Eli's base is lower than others. Right. So he has more room to go.

[A]

Two postseasons where he goes 4, 0.

[B]

Dude, he was the. He came out so far ahead of everybody else who ever lived that Nate redid the methodology because he's like, come on, Eli can't be this kind of an outlier above Joe Montana and everybody. Let's get all the Trent Dilfers out. Yeah, let's. And I'm going to redo the methodology and see who comes out number one. And so when he redid it, it was close. Eli Manning one, Joe Montana two. So. So that. Right. And that was because when you think it's not just the Super Bowls, he went on the road, he beat Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers at Lambeau. Right. Like he was. He had tough matchups on the road for two playoff series and he won two Super Bowls. You're right.

[A]

He also had a little bit of a horseshoe in a good way. Much like the Pacers last year. There were a couple moments where it's like, wow, 100%. How did that. How did that go Eliz way.

[B]

Butterfly effect. Right. Like the butterfly had flapped its wings in China. We're not having this conversation about Eli. But it didn't. Yeah, that's actually what happened. And he's a two time super bowl mvp. There have not been that many of them. And Bill, the. So. So I said once upon a time, famously, infamously, because it became a meme. Oh, this is what the universe on the line. Yeah. I want Iguodala. Right. The point I was making was Steph Curry. I had seen in game seven. I was there on my own dime. I just wanted to see it as a fan. Right. I wanted to be able to. And they had the greatest half court offense in the history of basketball. They had 73 wins. They were about to be declared the greatest basketball team of all time. It was five minutes left in the fourth quarter.

[A]

That's one of your moments that you were talking about.

[B]

Seven. Yeah. At home. They did not score another point. And you are the point guard and the best player on the team. He's carelessly throwing behind the back, passes out of bounds. He's scared to shoot. When he does shoot, he's not hitting. I can't say scared. I don't know what's going on in his heart. But that's what it appeared. And the bottom line is that offense didn't score a single point the rest of the way and lost a Game 7 at home. That to me is fate of the universe on the line. Right. So that's what I meant. A guy like Iguodala, open shot, not getting his own shot. I have confidence in Iggy. If he has the shot, he's going to take it and nail it. There are certain athletes.

[A]

This would be a good segment for you and Rich. Defend your meme.

[B]

100%. Defend your meme. I love it. That's what we're doing at the ringer, Bill. That's what we're doing. That's what we came here for.

[A]

I have a couple I could probably defend. Here's the thing with Curry, though.

[B]

But I'm. But I'm saying all this. Go back and think of the Patriots in 07. They were about to be called. They were going to replace the 1927 Yankees. The 72 win Bulls. The. This is the greatest team in the history of American team sports.

[A]

Thanks for bringing this period. Yeah.

[B]

And he beat him. Then fast forward four more years.

[A]

Which he scored 21 points. 17 points again, Bill.

[B]

It happened the exact same way. And this time actually the play, while less improbable, was a better play by Eli. Actually. When the Manningham pass, like he did it.

[A]

You can't.

[B]

Yes. If anything changes, that's gone. And we're not. But that's what actually happened. I don't see how you can. You can't tell the story of the NFL with the. Without Eli Manning in the. In that era. You can't dismiss the ironman streak, the two Super Bowl MVPs. The road wins against like hall of Fame quarterbacks at Lambeau. It's. He's a Hall of Famer.

[A]

Football's funny because it's such a small sample size for these playoff games.

[B]

Let people like me make bullshit arguments.

[A]

Well, but Flacco had the greatest postseason of all time.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

So when you start there, like basketball just doesn't have that. They don't have Joe Flacco. Oh, that Joe Flacco. Post season when he averaged 38 a game in the. For 20 games in the playoffs. Because basketball, because you have seven game series. It's. The right team usually wins the NBA.

[B]

We actually know who's really good. It's not really debatable.

[A]

We've had two finals in the last 40 years where the right team probably didn't win. 1988 Pistons and 2013 Spurs. I think those are the only two you could say. I'm not sure the right team won.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe on paper with the Spurs.

[A]

Well, I'm just saying they were up five with 27 seconds left the game. That should be it. They should have won the title.

[B]

Oh, I see what you mean. The way it played out, you're saying.

[A]

Yeah, and the Pistons, I think if Isaiah doesn't get hurt, they. They win. But it's funny, the Curry thing. I'm a. Obviously, Curry is my guy. I love Curry. It's a tough one to defend, and the only way you can defend it is by basically pointing to other players who are awesome, who failed in big moments. Like Magic had the 84 finals, right. That was just as bad as Curry in Game 7. But the bottom line is Johnson. Yeah. The bottom line is Curry was home. They were. They had won what they'd won 73 games plus 73 games. 15.

[B]

Right. Because. Deeper. Yeah, yep. 88 games. And. And. But not only that. To that point in history. It's the greatest offense ever. You're the machine who did. You're the unanimous mvp. You have guys like me on TV saying, I know in any other era, this wouldn't be true. But right now, Steph Curry is the best player in basketball in the middle of LeBron James's prime, right? But in the playoffs, you find out who really is the best player in basketball. And by the end of those playoffs, LeBron James was by so far the best player. It was ridiculous to compare other people to him.

[A]

Well, then Rich and Adam Silver got together and suspended Draymond for that fifth game. But that always helps if you have.

[B]

A guy like Draymond Green, and that.

[A]

Is the tax of Draymond Green. You never know when it's going to.

[B]

What side of the line is he going to be on? LeBron deserves credit for that. He baited him. It worked.

[A]

This would be another good segment. I. Let me make an excuse. So the 07 Pats and the 16 Warriors, I think, had a very similar thing of. There was too much pressure from the Streaks that weighed on them to a point where I think they were just debilitated because that Golden State basically should have lost to okc, which is even crazier. And Clay goes nuts in game six.

[B]

And then I was game seven for that, too. And that was a very winnable game for okc.

[A]

Okc. Durant was bad in those last 3 games. I think even he would admit that.

[B]

Marcellus Wy used to say this, when we were doing the radio show Max and Marcellus here in la, he'd be like, getting off the bus. Who do you like when you see the athletes getting off the bus? And, and a lot of was made of at that season of Cleveland and, and Golden State. Yeah, but people like in your mind's eye, go back the streak that the Thunder were on, you started going, getting off the bus. That's the best team, in fact, super winnable game for them. Game 7 at Golden State.

[A]

The west quick thing was just, it was just too wild.

[B]

KD choked. You don't take pleasure in saying that, but how else do you squish three one?

[A]

The other one that was in that camp for me is the Miami 27 game winning streak in 2013. The Heat, where all of a sudden that took a different life of itself, where these weren't regular season games anymore. Now they're playing like these are conference finals level intensity games. And I just think it takes something out of a team. I really felt like that happened in the Pats. I thought they, by the time they got to the playoffs, they were a different team than they were the first.

[B]

But you got like. So this is the most nervous I've ever been as a baseball fan was in 98 for the Yankees going into the World series against the Padres. 120 or 116 regular season, 114 regular season wins. They're beating everybody in the playoffs. You cannot lose to the Padres. But they swept them. They didn't win in six, seven games. They swept them.

[A]

Wasn't there a call? It was a bad umpire call. The Padre, fantastic.

[B]

Tino Martinez. It was strike three. Yeah, there were, there were always turning points and you know, the baseball gods were smiling on them. But like there were also times in those playoffs against Cleveland, El Duque, against like one of the greatest lineups ever comes in and shuts them down for seven innings. You know, I think it's fair to say when you're one of the greatest teams of all time or you're in that conversation, part of what you're being tested on is can you be that same team when it matters most? Right. And I think a lot of that.

[A]

Where he failed the test in 16.

[B]

I think it comes a lot from the leader. I think that your team has to believe that your guy is the best guy.

[A]

Steph atoned for that in 22.

[B]

He did, but that was, that's the thing.

[A]

Just like Magic atoned for it in 85, 87, 88.

[B]

But Steph deserves all the credit in the world for being the kind of player that you can build a system around that is just just wins all these championships. But he was only ever the best player on a championship team. No excuses in 22.

[A]

Well, but LeBron had a couple too. I mean 09 and 10 and 11. The 09 he was great. 10 he was not. And 11 was just an abject disaster and is probably the thing that hurts his go case the most.

[B]

But LeBron James was frequently the best player in the Finals.

[A]

Sixteen won it back.

[B]

Sometimes he was the best player in the finals and they won the championship. Sometimes he was the best player in the finals and they didn't win the championship. But he was frequently the best player in the finals and oftentimes the best player on a championship team. Steph in my view has done that once. I know you can say 15, but come on. LeBron's second best player is Matthew Dellavedova. It still goes six games.

[A]

Steph was hurt in 16.

[B]

Kevin Love yeah, yeah he was, but he wasn't. He was on the floor.

[A]

Defend your meme is funny. Let's take a break and then I want to talk Yannis Trades quick. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. This NBA season is all about the boost. Because game days means your chance to boost your bet. Make every play pay off. Right now all customers get a 50% same game parlay and parlay profit boost. Oh yeah. So like for instance, by the time you hear this Nick, Celtics would not have happened yet. But I'd like the Celtics at home tonight. I think the crowd's gonna show up. But you could do that. You could ride some of the teams that have been playing really well lately. Like it feels like Orlando's been coming on. On the flip side, the Clippers are an absolute train wreck. Maybe go against them. The games Never stop with FanDuel. You've got more ways than ever to make every win even bigger. So lock in your bets, boost your odds. Make every night count with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. You must be 21 + President select states or 18 + and President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration max wager amount. See [e-mail], gamprom call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChadConnecticut this episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everybody really hungry. Quarterback scrambles, clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah, turnover. Suddenly dessert at 2pm doesn't sound so crazy. Wing formations, well, those can only mean Buffalo wings. As if they're ever not in play. Even the goal posts start looking suspiciously like French fries. It's almost like football. Sending the message to eat more food. Yeah. The good news, Uber Eats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long. From wings and pizza to chips, drinks, and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on UberEats. All right, Giannis trades. So the question for me, and we're taping this, it's Tuesday morning. I think all the Giannis stuff's going to start this week. If Atlanta got Giannis without giving up Jalen Johnson or Daniels or even Reese Sachet, could they keep their team, which has this really cool identity right now, without Trey this long, athletic, kind of scary, young, the type of team. It's a little OKCish.

[B]

You're keeping JJ and getting Giannis.

[A]

Could I get Giannis and still keep my nucleus and actually make a run at okc? Is OKC catchable? If I have Giannis and the big trade chip for them, they have the pick that is either the Pelicans first or the. Or the Bucks first. It's one or the other. The highest one. And the Pelicans one is probably going to be top five.

[B]

Who's running your drafts?

[A]

Well, Jalen Johnson's been basically there like point forward and he's been awesome.

[B]

Yeah, I think when you get to the playoffs, I want a point guard. You know, like if it's a point forward, it's got to be. I think of Jalen Johnson doesn't excite you? I think in this era you need a guy.

[A]

No, I'm with you.

[B]

Who can really.

[A]

This is the Minnesota problem.

[B]

I'm thinking of Jaylen Johnson as a point forward in the playoffs when everything slows down. When everything slows down. And like it's tempting because maybe the following year you could you get a guy to do what you really need him to do. And now you have a suit. Like, you have crazy length, fit positions. You have defense. You have. Yeah, I think, I mean, yes, the answer is if you can tr. If, if you can center a package around Trey Young and get Giannis, you have to do it.

[A]

So it'd be Yana. It would be Trey Young. Poor Zingus who's an expiring.

[B]

See, they have. But they have a super tall.

[A]

Right?

[B]

They got a super tall guy.

[A]

He makes 30s. That's perfect for trade.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They have that Bucks pick. They have 20, 27. The worst of bucks are New Orleans First. They have all their own firsts. So they can put together four firsts. Trae Young, the Porzingis expiring. We'll take Kuzma back. Kuzma will be the tax of the honest trade. And for the Bucks, for your second.

[B]

Unit, you get a little offense there.

[A]

For the Bucks, it's like, hey, Trey Young, fun guy to have in your team. He's got two years left on his deal.

[B]

Then the Bucks are just raising the white flag and saying, we are now a franchise that knows we're not going to compete for titles, but we can keep fans coming and, you know, like, if I'm new, if I'm the Bucks, I don't do it. Well. How many draft picks am I getting? Which draft picks am I getting?

[A]

Well, you're getting that Pelicans pick, so you know you have a chance to be in the top four.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In a lottery that has three potential franchise guys.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right. And it's everyone thinks is the best draft in a long time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And thank you to the Pelicans for giving that pick to Atlanta. You have some other good ones, too. They have a top 10 predicted protected Sacramento pick. They have that 20, 27 worst one of the Bucks Poke. It's like they could put it together. I guess the question for me with the Bucks is, do you want to get in on this before AD becomes the consolation trade piece for Atlanta? Like you have Toronto, which doesn't have an asset like that pick, but could put together all their picks. They could put together contracts. San Antonio is the wild one.

[B]

That's the one. If I'm San Antonio, I'm doing whatever it takes to get Giannis.

[A]

That's like a brain breaker trade.

[B]

It's a brain breaker trade.

[A]

Putting Wemby and Giannis on the same team is like, that's.

[B]

And if I'm San Antonio, I have to do that. That's kind of what I'm rooting for to happen. I want to see it.

[A]

So if I'm Milwaukee, because you don't have really any asset, that's awesome. Except for a 2031, you can swap picks with the Kings.

[B]

Always have to be a three team trade.

[A]

It was a bonus Right. No, they have a bunch of contracts.

[B]

Yeah, but what are. What is? What is. What is.

[A]

Can I get Harper in that trade if I'm San Antonio? No, thank you. I'm keeping Dylan Harper. If it's okay, I'm keeping him. I'm keeping him.

[B]

Sure you'd like to.

[A]

No, I'm keeping him. I think he's untouched. How are you going to get Giannis, Castle? I don't really want to trade him either.

[B]

Right, But. But it's. That's the thing, man. You gotta as. As James. Tony famously said, and I said this on the Crawford Canelo broadcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

[A]

No, I get it. I get it. They have a bunch of picks and they'd have to really decide on I. Harper, to me, is untouchable. Castle, I should also be untouchable, but I have to give up something to get something. I have to give you at least one awesome asset.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Your fans can say, well, at least we got that.

[B]

And draft picks.

[A]

And bunch of draft picks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chicago really just has the draft picks. Detroit Duran's not going to be in the trade. He's untouchable. The Knicks, they can't really do anything.

[B]

I don't. I mean, the Knicks would have. Unless they have the. Giannis is better than Cat. Giannis is better than Cat. You're giving up a bunch of shooting.

[A]

There, but you can't package guys together and, like, it's too complicated.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The. The Knicks trade. That's not as complicated is ad. No. AD For Towns.

[B]

Oh. I think the Knicks trade, that makes all the sense in the world for both parties.

[A]

Don't do this.

[B]

Yeah. OG for LeBron.

[A]

Well, that. But that can't happen, though, because the contracts have to match perfectly. That's the problem with this apron. They would have to trade towns for LeBron is the only way, contractually, they could.

[B]

Wait. They don't have any other piece that could match up with the numbers once.

[A]

You start adding things. With this apron, you can't do. So they can do one for ones. So they could trade towns for AD right now.

[B]

The thing about LeBron, and I think I would do that, too. The thing. The thing about.

[A]

I have Knicks fans in my life who are like, I like Towns. No, thanks. I don't want to deal with ads.

[B]

Me, too. And Towns spaces the floor for a big. In an absurd way. He's never become the defender in space that it looked like he'd be out of college. But if LeBron could be. Think of him like Super Draymond. Green. On offense, the Knicks, he's. He becomes the pick and roll park partner for Jalen Brunson. And you can play five out with him. And even, oh, if Mitch Mitchell. Robinson's in, it's going to be 41. But. Right, that's true. But for high leverage moments, if you can keep him healthy and he's doing much less, if he's really the power forward.

[A]

Well, you're describing 20, 24 Olympics, LeBron.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is like, we don't need all of you, but we need all. We need your brain. We need your Swiss army knife. You can play every position.

[B]

He'll get a spot to shoot the three. Right. Like.

[A]

And with five minutes left in a huge game.

[B]

Play defense.

[A]

I love having you out there.

[B]

Yeah. Play defense with five minutes left in a huge game, by the way, which you can still do in spurts. The problem with the Knicks is they will never win a championship when their best player is 6ft tall. No one has ever won a championship since the bad boy Pistons.

[A]

Isaiah.

[B]

Right. Isaiah was the last one to do it who wasn't at least six foot three. I mean, the, the basket.

[A]

Six, three and a half.

[B]

The basket's way up high. Right. Like, it selects out for height. So you're not gonna.

[A]

You need the physicality of the playoffs.

[B]

You need a. The. The Knicks can't have their best player, Bjalen Brunson. You need at least another guy who in big moments is at least as good as Jalen Brunson.

[A]

Now you're saying this now you've been on the sidelines for two years here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is the best Knicks team of your lifetime. Close.

[B]

Best starting five of my lifetime, easily. There's no. There's never been a Knicks starting five. And I don't mean just like, add up all the talent, maybe even then. But the Knicks of, like, who? The powerhouse Knicks, who couldn't get over the hump when I was in high school and college were, you know, led by Patrick Ewing, who was the second best player on that team. Charles Oakley, John Starks.

[A]

The 94 finals comes down to can John Starks hit a couple shots or. That's why you don't win the title.

[B]

Hakeem Olajuwon not get his fingertip on that shot in game six.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But still, when you look at the starting five. Look at the Knicks starting five now you have a superstar point guard. You have in at the 2. You can. You could have one of two legitimate NBA starters. Right. You could. Bridges or Josh Hart are Both good NBA starters. You could see either one on a championship team. OG And. And Towns and Robinson and like, they got a lot.

[A]

Don't forget McBride.

[B]

McBride, they got a lot of stuff. They're. They're starters. When you, when you, like, when you look at each one individually, there's no real weak position. Maybe there's no position strong enough to get a couple of positions that are just checked at a solid level instead of a really high level over the hump. But there's no real weakness in the starting five where you say that guy. Really, they're kind of hiding that guy. That guy's starting because they have a great closest.

[A]

Because that. That hurt them in the playoffs last year.

[B]

Unless you watch him every day and.

[A]

No, I know. But in the playoffs, all of a sudden he became.

[B]

If, If. If Josh Hart shot a little bit better, right? If he shot a little bit better.

[A]

The question for me is I'm trying to win the title, right? Are you. If I'm. If I'm the Knicks, am I trying to make the finals or am I trying to win the title?

[B]

Win the title?

[A]

My team doesn't match up with OKC, I don't.

[B]

Unless someone traffic cop with OKC, you never know what gonna happen.

[A]

70 guys to throw it at Brunson, right, for seven games over two weeks. But if LeBron, it's a fucking gauntlet. And that's why I don't know if I'd.

[B]

Brunson and LeBron, though.

[A]

Well, LeBron is interesting. And AD I think is interesting too, for them because it just gives them. It just gives them a little more reliable size rebounding, like the possibility of somebody going off in a.

[B]

And how you getting AD it would.

[A]

Have to be Towns, right?

[B]

Then you're giving up a lot of shooting.

[A]

You're giving up a lot of shooting for some defense. And Mike Brown did figure out, it seems to me from watching them, the Brunson Towns thing feels a little more organic than it did last year. Last year, you could see their brains moving around. We got to figure out Cat.

[B]

And if I were the Lakers, I would want OGN and Obi. And if I were the Knicks, I would want him instead of Cat to be in that deal because then the Knicks have plenty of shooting. And I think in high leverage moments, they still.

[A]

The lakers got an Obi and Robinson for LeBron, basically, which I don't know if that's possible at the cap.

[B]

Yeah. And I want Mitchell, like, Robinson's not only good, but he's a playoff performer.

[A]

But Anobi makes like, 15 million less than LeBron. You have to put it out there.

[B]

You have to figure out how to.

[A]

That's part of the problem with this apron is some of the teams don't have the right contracts to kind of add together. That's why Atlanta's so interesting, because Atlanta can make any type of trade, and I really like their team. Like, I. You know, when you think, like, I don't know what they're going to get from Porzingis, it just seems like he's going to be plagued by this mystery virus he had for the rest of his career. He played one game, now he's gone again.

[B]

But when he. But he's playing, like, when he plays. He plays valuable minutes and he plays well. Right. And that was true in Boston, too.

[A]

But if you're think if you're them and you're like, we might have a chance to make the Finals. Like, the Hawks have never made the Finals.

[B]

Yeah. So I think that's crazy.

[A]

I think their motivations are maybe a tiny bit different than the Knicks, where the Knicks are like, we have to actually win the title. Making the Finals is fun, but that. That doesn't ultimately, really, the title is what matters. You haven't won since 73. Who are you telling?

[B]

I was born in. I was born in August of that year that occurred in January. I've not had a breath since the Knicks. Like, the Knicks have never won a championship in my lifetime. So would you rather I leaned on your theory about when a fan is allowed to jettison a team in order to come and broadcast in LA and root for the Lakers? I leaned on the Bill Simmons theory.

[A]

Did it work? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I was able to actually get behind the Lakers because I'd put my time in with the team. I tried, you know, and then really, the final straw for me would be, yeah, the final straw for me with the Knicks was when Oakley got escorted from the Garden. Like, could you imagine Paul o' Neill getting kicked out of Yankee Stadium? Yeah, Right. Like, I would stand online. We'd have season tickets. I would stand online overnight at around the Garden with my brother to get Knicks tickets. Right in the freezing cold, you had to stand, like, you had to get there. If you didn't get there, you know, they went on sale, whatever it was 9am let's say you had to get there, you know, the night before and just wait all night because the line wrapped around the block. And I did that because of guys like Charles Oakley. They made. They made you proud to be Oakley made you proud to be a Knicks fan. And you get that. You escort that guy from the Garden. Why? Because he doesn't like you as an owner. Come on, man.

[A]

So you're back with the Knicks. I'm trying to keep track. This is like. You're like JLo and Ben Affleck.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know what's going on.

[B]

You guys leave when you leave the team, right? Of course. A part of you is. I'm interested in watching them. I want them to do well. I don't think that. I don't think that this iteration of the Knicks can win a championship.

[A]

It is funny that we can divorce human beings, but not teams. It somehow is more violating to people in your life that you would get rid of a team. I remember Fantasy was doing this for the ringer. He was like, I'm done with the Knicks. And he really tried, and he tried to be, like, a basketball widow.

[B]

And, you know, I used to have the.

[A]

The DNA is still there in New York radio.

[B]

I did the Max KELLERMAN show, like, 20 years ago for ESPN radio, and I used to have the Abused Knicks fan hotline. Right. Like. Because, like, they can't. But, you know, yes, they can still hurt you because you. You always run back. And that's really the reason the Knicks and I. I can't criticize the current regime that Dolan has in place because they've done an excellent job. There's no two ways.

[A]

The Brunson thing was amazing.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

I don't know how legal that whole thing was either.

[B]

And the whole Nova thing. Yeah. You know, but, like, I. You had to make the trade for Towns. It was a shame to get rid of DiVincenzo. Right. Like, but you have to pull the trigger on.

[A]

It was the right trade.

[B]

It was the right trade.

[A]

And now Randall's not. He gave up pot. He looks like the quickest he's ever looked in his life.

[B]

Randall could be a new.

[A]

Could be a new trend.

[B]

Randall is like, there are some players who are really, really good, and yet the real careful observers of them who root for the team that they're on don't think that they want them on the team. And Randall is kind of like that with the Knicks. Most Knicks fans were like, okay, that might be addition by subtraction because Randall's off.

[A]

We had the junior version that with Marcus Smart, it had just kind of run its course. But in the outside world, it was like, Marcus Smart, it's harder the team. It's like, Eh, we'll.

[B]

We'll probably draft it right next to each other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Seven, eight. I think there's been.

[A]

It's funny those guys, when you have them and you're watching them day in, day out versus the general public. Had a few of those over the years.

[B]

This is, this is why when I said I want Iguodala, it was the same thing. Like if you asked a real Yankees fan back in the day, bases are loaded, clutch moment in the playoffs, do you want a rod up or Luis soho up? Hardcore Yankees fans will tell you, I'd rather have Luis soho up.

[A]

Well, I would tell you from a guy that rooted for the team that would have to play those teams every once in a while, I wanted a rod to come up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Unless it was. Unless one of the teams were up 12 to 2.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Then for.

[A]

Then it's like fucking a. Rod's going 500ft here.

[B]

100%. There are like the idea that clutch doesn't exist. That, you know, of course, if you have a guy with a rod's talent or Steph's talent, you give them, give them enough reps and they'll work through whatever and eventually they're just too good. But the sample size has to be pretty big for some of these guys. Whereas guys like, you know, David Ortiz.

[A]

Well, plus we had like Bill Miller was a classic example of this. You didn't want to see Bill Miller up with guys on base.

[B]

Nah, man. Switch hit.

[A]

He was getting on base. He just was. The Dodgers had had a couple guys like that too last year.

[B]

They did.

[A]

They. They were just. And you could kind of tell which.

[B]

Guys outs tough outs. Like you're a baseball fan. You know exactly what that is.

[A]

The catcher, Will Smith.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Who I loved. I just thought he was awesome. Like the kind of guy you'd want. That's the thing. Like, we gave up Schwerber like four years ago, the Red Sox, and we had a post season with him and every time he came up, I thought he was getting on base or hitting home run. And then they're like, yeah, we don't need him. We have some first base prospects coming up. It's like, what about the guy who, as baseball moves toward walks, home runs and strikeouts, is like the fucking poster boy of this. We're going to let this guy go.

[B]

Right. And there's also like, there's some. It's like this Gladwell type thing from one of those airport books he did. I forgot which one. Airport books. You know what I mean? Like, you Got a flight.

[A]

Oh, look, Gladwell has a 220 page.

[B]

You know, he'll be. He's a good expositor of some ideas. It's kind of been replaced by reels on Instagram, I feel like. Or for the kids, TikTok. But, but, but he's good. He kind of like, you know. Yeah. Composite.

[A]

Well, now nobody reads on an airplane. My daughter would just go on TikTok for six hours.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but, but it was like, it's kind of a. It was blink. Called Blink. Yeah, it's the blink test. And fans know their, their intuition is often correct. You take a look at a guy and without looking at stats. And I'm all for saber metrics. I've been geeking out on them since I was a kid. But you can know that that's the kind of guy I want up in this situation or I want at the free throw line in this situation. And if they fail, you can live with it because you're like, okay, they're not always going to succeed. But I've seen that enough that, you know, in a blink kind of way and just an intuitive way that I'm picking up something about this guy that's comfortable in that situation and that makes me feel confident.

[A]

And then this is my dad with Jaylen Brown, who's been a great Celtic. I love Jaylen Brown. But in the last minute of a game, if it's a tight game and he goes to the free throw line, he's probably going to make one or two. And my dad will mention it. And he, by the way, forgets all the times Jalen made both. But when he goes one and two, like he did the other night in Cleveland.

[B]

And my dad. Perception.

[A]

Yeah. My dad's like, see one or two, right?

[B]

Selective perception, perceptual defense, whatever it is, you know, like. And yet there's something.

[A]

There's something in your gut.

[B]

There's something. And you know, there's a boxing trainer, Tommy Brooks, who was talking about Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield. If they would have fought 100 times, Holyfield wins every time. He said, the difference is. And he kisses his arms. Holyfield loved himself and Mike hated himself. Yeah, right. There's certain athletes, if they're at the free throw line in a tight game, they think they deserve to hit that shot. Like, you could say people could say whatever they want about Kobe Bryant. If he's at the free throw line in a tight game, that dude loves himself. He is going to. Like, there's nothing in him working against his own success there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there are other guys. A Rod, you got. You got the feeling like he was conflicted inside somehow.

[A]

I mean, he literally just did a documentary called Alex vs. A Rod.

[B]

There. There you go. It's probably why I said it on my mind. But he. There was. He's working against himself there. There's something in him that's working against himself or Ortiz.

[A]

The opposite.

[B]

The opposite.

[A]

Manny. The opposite. Manny would just go in these benders where he would just go 30 for 58 for two weeks.

[B]

I'm a Yankees fan. Yeah, you don't have to tell me twice. And as great as Manny was, Ortiz is the guy. Don't want to see him. Dustin Pedroia, you can.

[A]

That's how we flip. That's how we flip the rivalry. Because of Ortiz.

[B]

Well, no, you flip. You flip the rivalry literally with a flip. The rivalry. Rivalry flipped in a regular season game in 2004, after the Yankees broke the Red Sox heart in 2003, when Jason Veritek started a fight with.

[A]

July 27, 2004, he started the fight with the game ender.

[B]

He picked on a Rod. He was a. Rog was in the right. Varitek was in the wrong. Yeah, he bullied him, but then he won the fight before it got. Before it got broken up. He got the better of it. And as a Yankees fan, I'm not saying this in retrospect. I'm telling you, at the time, I thought, oh, that's bad. That's really bad. It's bad for the psychology of the team. Getting back to Steph Curry, Magic Johnson and all that stuff. It reminds me when your best player has a quality about them that makes the team feel like that we have that guy. We can't lose. It does something to the team. And Steph, I don't think had that for a lot of his career. He's a. One of the greatest players ever. But I didn't get. LeBron did. I got the feeling like with LeBron on the team, LeBron did. Later, later. Right after the first. After the Dallas loss, he started getting that thing. The team believe Derek Jeter had it, even though there were other players better than him on the team. Kobe Bryant had it, no matter what people want to say, which is why I. I think it is also ridiculous when people say, oh, Kobe's like the 8th best player ever, the 10th best player ever, and. And kids from his generation lose their minds. That's not an unfair ranking. But why I would put him over Tim Duncan is because I think that it is close. I think between those two is that it's outrageous. Kobe's team believed if he had a shot to win. You're just going to be team believe that they would win.

[A]

I'm going to leave the Tim Duncan slander.

[B]

You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of the.

[A]

I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time.

[B]

I've made this many times. Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. I think that's not slander. They're neck and neck. Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan. Right. Probably the close in any sport. Tell me an upper echelon all time.

[A]

I think Kobe like 10th or 11th all time.

[B]

Okay. I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

[A]

Duncan's seventh and I don't think it's debatable.

[B]

You think it's not debatable?

[A]

I don't. I don't.

[B]

I think. MJ lebron. Kareem who? Russell.

[A]

MJ lebron. Russell. Bird of Magic.

[B]

Oh, Head of Chamberlain. Okay.

[A]

Chamberlain was a loser for most of his career and although I wrote a whole chapter in my book about this, he didn't.

[B]

I mean, you know, the Celtics had.

[A]

Every good player you knew. It was never getting traded. Ever. Tim Duncan.

[B]

Yeah, right. Okay, fine.

[A]

Ever.

[B]

Fine. I dis. I think I. I agree with what you're saying about Will. And they used to say I never got to see Will play. Really. But I used to hear if you needed points, he'd give you assists. If you needed assists, he'd give you points. Okay, fine. You could put Bill Russell ahead of him, not have him five. So I'd have Wilt five. You have Bird and Magic right after that. Fine, whatever. So you think Duncan is right after Bird and Magic?

[A]

I do. And guess what? I think Jokic is coming. But yeah, I don't think it can only be with one title.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Because now we're in the titles. I. I don't love the ring culture, but it's really tough to put a one title guy like the top eight of all time. But I said this last month to Lego. I think he's the best offensive player I've ever seen. I wasn't there for Wilt, but of anyone I've watched in my lifetime, Jordan was the best player I've ever seen.

[B]

He was the best. He was a better offensive player too. But like, I don't know. Yes, of course Jokic is going to shoot better because in this era you're going to Take those shots so much better.

[A]

Everything he does, it doesn't matter who's on his team. He is just. His team is going to score points. He will figure out what do we need today. I'll do that. And he's just gonna. I've just never seen a guy like him in person. I saw. I was there for the entire Jordan thing and saw great Jordan games.

[B]

You think. Yo. Which is a good offensively as Larry Bird for his. You have to say for his era. Because of course, skills improve.

[A]

And as you know, Larry Bird is my favorite player of all time and my sports hero. I think he was a better offensive player because of the size is what makes it better.

[B]

In his like. Okay. In an absolute sense, all the athletes are always getting better because they're building on what came before them. Right?

[A]

True.

[B]

Okay. But I mean, for his. So this is a thought experiment. I do. In the one sport that's measured objectively. We know track and field, that guys are getting better because better means faster. Right. There's no debate.

[A]

It's track and field and cars are the two things that work for us.

[B]

Stop.

[A]

A 1963 Porsche versus a Porsche. Now, you can't compare the cars. So.

[B]

So the 10th best sprinter in the world today is much, much better than Jesse Owens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's a ridiculous statement to make because we're not. They. They're two different errors. Who's the greater right. That if there's.

[A]

This is the Bob Cousy argument.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

This is why I get mad when Cousy just gets cut out because he played a million years ago. It's like.

[B]

Well, in. At that time.

[A]

At that time, he was the most important basketball player we had until Russell showed up and he was the best guard of the first 15 years of the league. Like that has to matter a little bit.

[B]

Absolutely. And. And I would say that Jokic in his day, as great as he is. I'll take Larry Bird in his day. Larry Bird.

[A]

It's a good argument because Larry had three straight MVPs, and then 87 was his best season.

[B]

I. I remember as a kid and my dad loved Larry Bird, which killed me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As a Knicks fan. And because he said the Celtics play the way they played reminded him of the Knicks championship teams, like the unselfish way they played. But I was like, all I knew was Boston Celtics, Larry Bird. Get out of here with that, dad. Right. But inside I remember thinking, and I'm a little kid, I'm thinking, I'll never see anybody this good again. Like the whole thing with Bird and Magic came because Magic was able to adapt and he played longer and. And he had this weird prime that just kept going even as he kind of adjusted as a player in 99.

[A]

That's what Bird really only had the nine years, and then his body started to break down. Magic. Magic had like 11.

[B]

When they were both at their best had.

[A]

Bird was slightly better.

[B]

And. And that was kind of. That was. Wasn't really debated. You know, in fact, like, the guy who Larry was compared to early. It's a little revisionist history now because it's perfect with the college stuff and everything. Was Dr. J commercially. Right, Right.

[A]

But you have that behind you over your right shoulder. The bird versus Dr. J.

[B]

Right? Yeah, yeah. The Converse Ads or.

[A]

That was his. Philly was their rival. It was funny because the Lakers, they played them in the finals those three times, but Philly was the. That was the hump to get over year after year, dude. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, but. But at any rate, he's another one.

[A]

Who slipped through the cracks of history now.

[B]

He. Yeah, because the aba. But in the aba, he was.

[A]

God, I would say the first six, seven years of NBA in person, he was unbelievable to see in person with, like, his fucking Freddy Krueger going into the lane with one arm, all that shit he could do.

[B]

Magic were like.

[A]

They were different. So that's why I think Jokic is in that conversation with them, because of what he does, he can completely change the identity of guys who, if they didn't play with him, would have had completely different careers. And that's. That's a different list.

[B]

The first time he had a shot at it, he has. You know, if there's a guard on your team who's a B plus, but in the playoffs, he becomes an A plus. Yeah. And I know Jokic wasn't quite in his prime yet, but you can't rise to that same level in that series. That's. You know, that's like LeBron against Dallas.

[A]

But he loses two. He loses two Murray playoff years because Murray gets hurt right before the playoffs.

[B]

And as soon as he had a shot and they get Aaron Gordon, they get a. They get the right kind of third guy.

[A]

Honestly, last year, what he did against OKC was pretty amazing just to even drag that series to seven games. And Gordon had a big piece of that, too.

[B]

But he's an incredible player. But I'm Jokic, but I'm with you here. He's a guy who, like, one championship would make is like Aaron Rodgers. Aaron Rodgers. Just winning one super bowl, it ain't going to cut it in the all time arguments because his talent suggests like wait, you're with Drew Brees and them. You're so much better than those guys. Right?

[A]

That's true.

[B]

That's.

[A]

But this is why Curry's 22 is so important.

[B]

So important because that's the first time he was the best player on.

[A]

He did it in a championship. There's no way they win unless he goes crazy.

[B]

For me, that put Curry in the, in like in the top 10 ever conversation regardless of position.

[A]

So the thing with Jokic and Duncan and Bird and Magic is I think it's actually impossible not to win 50 games if you had those guys in their peak. And this is the part that things Kobe, who I've kind of come around, especially when I wrote my book versus what the 09, 10 was so important for him those last two titles. But those middle three years in the Lakers when it was like, all right dude, now you have to carry us. The team's not that good and they just weren't even in 06. Like when he drags them to 45 wins. There's no 45 win Tim Duncan season.

[B]

So. So there are different ways to look at this. If I have nothing, I have garbage on my team and I want to get my team as close as possible to winning a championship. LeBron James is the answer to that. Right.

[A]

I would throw Jokic in there too though.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But yeah, that year after Murray before, I think I can't remember if Aaron Gordon was on there or not. But you go back and you look at the roster he had.

[B]

Yeah, not good.

[A]

It's like, how is this a playoff contender?

[B]

You can take it. My pick all time would be LeBron. If you have something that's fair, if you have something on your team. My pick is Michael Jordan. Because every time Michael Jordan ever played with one other allstar except for when he came back for 20 something games that he won, he never didn't win the championship in under seven games.

[A]

I mean he almost won in 90 before Pippen was Pippen.

[B]

Right. Like by the way. And then they go, they go to seven games against the defending back to back champions.

[A]

Pippen gets a migraine.

[B]

Migraine. And they still like otherwise maybe he wins. Right. The, the point is with Kobe, not that. So he's more like Jordan. Give Kobe something to work with and he's going to take you as far as you can go.

[A]

I still feel like there was some behind the scenes stuff with him that had to sort itself out over the years with his personality. And there's was too much written about what a tough teammate he was. It's the hardest thing to put into context with his career because his own coach was writing books about how impossible he was to coach. Right. And then they hashed it out and they really figured out an unbelievable relationship over the second part of it. But that's still. You have to look at the first half of his career. You have to count that in at least a little bit.

[B]

So Bill James once wrote about Carl Yastremsky and Stan Musial, you know, and showed all the. All the ways they were similar musical on a. On a higher level, right. Have there ever been two superstars where they're among the greatest players in the history of American team sports? Both. And one of them was such a close replica of the other. Kobe is. Is in terms of his size, his position, his game, his accomplishments, his.

[A]

The.

[B]

How effective he was.

[A]

Well, he has a. Studied Jordan and. And actually try to emulate six and.

[B]

Play shooting guard and have the same coach and everything, but he. You have the greatest play. I think Michael Jordan, to me, is clearly and by far the greatest athlete who ever lived. Like in his sport, the greatest athlete ever lived. Everyone wanted to be like Mike, right? There were commercials. No one like the next guy who came into the conversation, who actually made it an argument had to do something different. It was LeBron, right? He's like kind of the first postmodern player where he's like, I'm magic. And Michael Kobe was some Dr. J. Yeah, Kobe was the first. Was the only guy really with the guts to say, I'm going to. You know, people misuse the word emulate all the time, right? They think it means imitate, but really it means imitate in a way that surpasses trying to surpass the original. Kobe had the guts to try to do the same thing. The greatest of all time did better than the greatest of all time, did it? I don't think he got there, but he was basically Michael Jordan. He was like Michael Jordan minus a hair, right? But damn, that's good. That's so good.

[A]

Well, and then he used some of the career advantages that his era had to try to beat him, which is what LeBron's doing too. Like Jordan, basically, he's comes in. In three years in college, age 35, is like 42 now. That's when. That's when he won the 98 title, right? It's like, oh my God, he's 35. And now you know you can play 20 years. And that's why, like, even you look at the football. Like, why Rogers, who seemed like he was done last year? It's like, maybe he's not done. Like, who knows with all the shit we have. And now, now you watch him like, oh, yeah, he's done.

[B]

Yeah, he's not. He. He has.

[A]

He had to at least keep the door open for him not being done.

[B]

He hasn't been great in like three or four years.

[A]

We get. Take another break. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like needing the protection offensive guard on the football field, but getting an elementary school crossing guard. Sure, they're both guards, but you can only trust one to keep your quarterback safe when the game is on the line. So don't settle for just any insurance when you can have State Farm. Like a good neighborhood. State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every time I sit down and watch the game, I find myself getting a little hungry. Especially when football's going on all day. Football and food just go together. Luckily, Uber Eats has game day deals all season long on the food you love. Like right now, you can get a BOGO 10 piece chicken nuggets from McDonald's or whether you're ordering from your favorite restaurant or getting snacks from the grocery store. Whatever you're trying to do, Uber Eats has you covered for game day. So order now on Uber Eats. Promotion available until December 14th. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Terms apply. We didn't really solve the honest trade thing.

[B]

I don't. I think the reason I think it will be the spurs if he's traded is because the opportunity is there that.

[A]

You'Re going to the West.

[B]

It's irresistible.

[A]

If I'm trying to win titles or make finals, I'm doing the way LeBron thought about the decade in the 2010s. Like, I'm staying in the East. I have a much better chance. I don't have to see OKC Denver. I don't have to see Houston.

[B]

Where would they rank if Wemby turns into what we think he might. If he turns in, take the median, kind of.

[A]

Can Wemby play like two months straight?

[B]

That's the problem. He's gigantic in a way that you just don't know about his health. But Giannis and Wemby together, it would be amazing and maybe like the greatest pair ever.

[A]

They have a chance, easier to make the Finals. If he can pull off Atlanta and not Detroit would be the other one. But if I'm Detroit, I'm just not doing anything crazy. I really like my team not winning the title this year. We talked. Zach and I were talking. We did a pot a couple weeks ago, and I was. I used to have what would Belichick do? As the mantra back when Belichick was throwing 100 miles an hour and, like, just knew the roster and when to get rid of guys and. And now it's, what would Presti do? And you have to look at these NBA teams and be like, all right, if Presti ran Detroit, what would he do? And he'd be like, he wouldn't trade for Anthony Davis. That's not happening. Huh?

[B]

Markkanen.

[A]

I don't think he'd do anything. I think he'd look at it and go, let's have an awesome year. OkC is probably going to win anyway. Let's go into the summer and really figure out what to do.

[B]

This was like with the Celtics. I remember talking about it at the time. They lost again in the playoffs. And it was like, given the age of Tatum and Brown, let's say. And I said at the time, now, they won the very next season. But I said, let's say over the next three years, they make the conference finals twice, the finals once, and they don't win anything.

[A]

You're basically OKC in the early 2010s.

[B]

Well, by then, your two best players are 29 and 28. Yeah. And they may win four championships. Still, like, everyone's in such a rush. You know, if you have a nucleus, you believe in, let it bake a little bit. Give it some time.

[A]

30 team league. All right, this segment is called Topics Max is mad he missed out on. Then we should mention you were on ESPN for a while. You got bought out as part of the buyout. This also happened to Zach. This has happened to a bunch of people. It happened to me, sort of where my last five months when I was there, when they weren't going to renew my contract, and it was kind of a staring contest, and I was like, fine, I'll figure out the ringer. I'll take this time.

[B]

They didn't buy me out, by the way. They just. I just wrote out my contract. Right, right.

[A]

You wrote it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's. But you didn't get to work.

[B]

No.

[A]

You missed out on some topics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I asked you to send me a list. I'll go through them quick. Or you can stop Me whenever you want. Number one, Hal Steinbrenner is too poor to own the Yankees.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've been itching for two years to talk about this.

[B]

I think Hal is doing, I think he cares. I think he's a good owner. Like, his intentions are good, but he's worth a couple billion dollars in a, in a sports environment now where the, where the richest owners are worth 10 times that. And so he's running it like a business that he needs to profit from, not just where he enjoys the increase in the equity, but he wants to see a profit. Right. Um, and as a result, he has turned the Yankees into a generic powerhouse, big market team. The Yankees have won. I don't insist the Yankees win the World Series every year. I'm not actually insane, but this is my number one sports team out of, out of all of them. Right. I do insist on the following, though. They win more than anyone else, and they certainly win more World Series than the Red Sox and the Dodgers. They're two traditional rivals in the American National League. In this century so far, which is a quarter of the way through, the Yankees have won one World Series. The Red Sox have won four.

[A]

Four.

[B]

And the Dodgers have won three. They're, the Yankees are failing. They're failing. They are a powerhouse team every year. They're excellent. They're generally well run, good, generic, big powerhouse, big market team. That is not the New York Yankees. The New York Yankees were by far and away the number one franchise in the history of American team sports. They went from 1920 to 1965 winning half the World Series ever played. Right. Even then after that, they, you know, they were a powerhouse again in the 70s and they had the greatest dynasty in the history of modern baseball in the late 90s. They won four out of five World Series. They came and out away from winning five out of six World Series. It was insane. And, and, and from that point, basically. And the only reason, George Steinbrenner is very overrated also, and I liked him in a way, but the only reason the Yankees got great was because he was kicked out of baseball. They couldn't trade away their prospects. You know, that's why.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He was colluding with the other owners when Jack Morris and these guys were available and he didn't sign them when the Yankees were in an inflection point. They could have been a powerhouse again. And they weren't because he was in cahoots with the other owners to, to stick it to the players. But the Yankees brand, which doesn't just mean hey, we're top notch. It means we're the best by far. We are the standard that every other sports team aspires to be. He's frittering it away.

[A]

Well, it's funny because the same thing is happening in Boston where we flip it, right? We have the four World Series this year through 2018, and then the teams kind of being run the same way the Yankees are being run. They spend enough money to make. So yeah, they make. They spend enough money to make it seem like they're spending enough money.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The stadium's packed. They're making shitloads of money. But something's not. It's not as dire. It's not like.

[B]

Because you guys are like someone's house. Because. No. Cause your house poor. Your owner is team poor. Well.

[A]

Cause.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause he is the Fenway Sports Group where they have Liverpool and the Penguins. All this shit too much.

[B]

But, but, but we're not just. The Yankees aren't house poor for baseball. The owner is actually, by the standards of Major League Baseball owners, one of the poorest Major League Baseball owners. But do you think less wealth than the others? Mark Walters are these guys who take over teams and are worth $20 billion, immediately can hire Friedman or whoever they want, play money ball with money. Right. And crush everyone every year.

[A]

Well, this is what I'm worried about. The Lakers. The Lakers for the last. Really since the good doctor got sick, they're being run by the fucking Succession family. The bumbling bus they just stumble into. They already had Kobe. And then, you know, they. They're terrible for most of the 2010s. LeBron just decides, I'd really like to live in Los Angeles to get him. Then Rich is running LeBron's life. He's also has A.D. he's like, A.D. wants to go to the Lakers. I'm going to make this happen. Now they have those two guys together. And then right as it's about to fail again, here's the Luka Dodges trade. Out of nowhere, the. The buses did nothing. And now they're being run correctly by the Dodgers owner, who's like to be a problem. Let's spend on scouting, let's spend on consultants. Let's. The buses drove away Jerry west. Like what did they do good other than have these people fall into their laps?

[B]

Well, the irony of Dr. Jerry Buss, who unlike Steinbrenner, deserves every accolade he gets.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

He's the great greatest owner by far. History of American team sports not close. I mean, I remember definitely the Greatest basketball owner.

[A]

It's not even an argument.

[B]

It's not an argument. I remember when he showed up at the Lakers practice and it was when they had traded for Nash and Dwight Howard and it wasn't going well. And I. We were. We had him on the show and I. I was wondering why he showed up. Because Steinbrenner would have showed up. Yeah. To. We demand to win. And he's like, I just wanted to make sure that everyone was getting what they needed. I wanted to see if Needed anything that they weren't getting right. And this guy was. He was unbelievable. Like his whole tenure was unbelievable. It's so hard to win in professional sports at all. This guy not only won, but wanted to win in a certain style that makes it. You're already. It's already impossible. Now you're. Forget it. You can't do that because you have stipulations how you are going to win. I. I want it to be exciting. I want. He did it to the point, Bill. When I was a kid, I think The Celtics had 13 championships and the Lakers had like six. Now it's like they're neck and neck all the time.

[A]

Yeah. Because they count the Minnesota titles.

[B]

But they caught up. They caught up to the Celtics. That's like someone catching the Yankees. The Celtics were more than double ahead of everybody else.

[A]

The problem now is because they had this incredible player, Luka Doncic. And they also have Reeves who somehow wasn't in the Luka Doncic trade, which for reasons that will never. For 50 years from now, I'm going to be. I'm hopefully alive wondering why he wasn't in the trade.

[B]

But can you win with Lucas style? This is something rich. And I talk about like, I, you know, it's like James Harden 2.0. I think he's better than Harden. I think he has a chance to be better than Harden was.

[A]

But can you win with some good signs though? He's already made the finals as the best guy in a finals team. Right.

[B]

But Harden got super. Got farther than he should have. You know, it took the worst shooting performance ever for him not to make a final by the whole team.

[A]

So I. I thought the Lakers were going to be like a play in team.

[B]

Me too. I didn't know. I don't think. I thought maybe not even a play in team.

[A]

Reeves and Luca are averaging, I think 63 points a game.

[B]

Dude.

[A]

JJ which is. I think that might be the record for two teammates. I don't know if two teammates have ever been over 60 much JJ Redick, man.

[B]

Like, he. That's my mind goes right to JJ Redick. The job he has done when LeBron wasn't there. And sometimes Luca wasn't there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Defensively and like, the team is playing. He's his attention to de, like, because think of what a head coach has to be. You have to be a leader. You have to get people on the same page. You need buy in.

[A]

Well, you see that play last night when LeBron was talking to the Sun's bench during a blowout and they called the play and JJ Got pissed and he called timeout. And that.

[B]

That really bothered me, man, that LeBron. Like, I understand why JJ was so pissed.

[A]

Yeah. But he's. I think they respect him. They have a pretty weird team, right? Nobody wanted deandre Ayton, the guy. I think two franchises were like, we'll pay this guy to go away, basically.

[B]

He's been excellent.

[A]

They have Reeves and Luca, who are just two defensive liabilities. Like there's no other way to put it. And then this hodgepodge of role players. And they didn't have LeBron for.

[B]

And yet they were winning without 15 games. LeBron or Luca at times. And they were playing defense with a team that shouldn't be able to play defense.

[A]

Little schedule luck. But not. Not a ton well recently. But I watched them and I'm like, the team likes each other. They're really well coached and they have two awesome offensive options at the end of games. And as long as Ayton is okay.

[B]

His number one pick for a reason, like, you know, he was not like.

[A]

He was in the Finals.

[B]

Yeah, bad player. He did some things very well in their explorer's reputation.

[A]

But it reminded me of like, one of those old where the Yankees would go grab somebody. It was like, oh, that guy has a shitty reputation. But back to the Yanks. I think the thing the Yanks and Red Sox have in common is, yeah, you're doing fine. You're making money, you're in the playoffs. There's this other level you could be at that the Dodgers have figured out where the Dodgers are. Like, they're spending the craziest amount of money, but I think they also make money and they're winning World Series. They figured out the Far East. I feel like that's something the Yankees would have figured out 20 years ago. Like, and they tried. They signed a bunch of Asian players. Right. But they would have figured out, like, there's so much money over there. This could be a pipeline for us.

[B]

And the Yankees took unheralded guys compared to some of the Japanese superstars like Tanaka, who was great, great under pressure. Like it's a shame that guy never won a World Series because he was such a great pitcher. Was a good one and history will forget him. Right? Compared to some of these other guys. And that's a shame. No, you're right. The Yankees and the Red Sox are stuck in this, in their, their generic powerhouse big market teams who are like, oh shucks, the, the playoffs are a crapshoot. Meantime, the Dodgers find that, that blue chip guy and they're like, we don't care what it costs, we're going to get that guy.

[A]

Getting Mookie was brilliant.

[B]

Signing greatest players of all time.

[A]

Signing Freeman, was that right? They didn't really need to have to do it. And the Red Sox were allegedly in the mix, but not really. But they didn't need Freeman.

[B]

But 10 years ago, the Red Sox get Freeman.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Yamamoto, same thing. Like they didn't technically need Yamamoto, but they're like, fuck it, this guy's amazing. Let's get him.

[B]

Freeman is a perfect example hall of Fame guy toward the end of his career, but it ain't over yet. He's still near enough his prime and.

[A]

You want him in any playoff series, any game.

[B]

Edible playoff performer. Where the Yankees look at a guy like Goldschmidt who was never as good as Freeman, but yeah, but, but like maybe and okay, we'll get him. Maybe he can have a bounce back year. Come on, a short deal. Really. How about pushing your chips to the middle of the table for the surefire blue chipper?

[A]

Well, my buddy Jacko, my college roommate, diehard Yankee fan who hates house Steinbrenner with the passion of seven sons. He thinks that Cashman and these guys would rather kind of strike oil with the Trent Grisham kind of signing versus actually let go in and just get Yamamoto. It's almost like he, it's, he feels better. It's more this Jacko's theory. He's feels like it's more impressive to land these like unheralded gems.

[B]

If you're looking for a gm, Cashman's very good gm. He's not good enough to be the Yankees gm because again, as a Yankees fan, I insist you must be the best. If you're not the best gm, you shouldn't be the Yankees gm. But he's fine. He's good, he can, he does things like if you are looking for an athletic, highly drafted, like high draft position, disappointing outfielder who you can get on the cheap. Nick Swisher or Curtis Granderson or Grisham. You just brought up Cashman's your guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You'll be like, wow, he really picked up that good, useful outfielder who's actually. Look at that. He has 35 home runs. Gave up very little to get him. Boy, that's great. You know what? Sometimes you pull the trigger on a. On a. On a Garrett Cole trade, even if you have to throw in an or one of your overrated prospects that you'd like to hold on to. Right. Like, and they. He doesn't. He don't. You have to like. So this is. The Clippers got it wrong when they pushed all the chips in for Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. And the Yankees get it wrong when they never push all their chips in for. The real thing is you have to identify the right target. The Dodgers say Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman.

[A]

They're also really good at getting rid of guys at the perfect time. And some of those guys ended up on the Red Sox where it's like, oh, we got Bueller.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, yeah, the Dodgers weren't that interested in keeping him. I wonder why.

[B]

Well.

[A]

Cause he's not. Oh, we traded for Dustin May. Oh, he's not good anymore either. That's the thing.

[B]

Getting back to Presti, like, yeah. Guys in the league don't like Presti. You know why? You lose. He's better than you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You will lose the trade. I won.

[A]

Anyone the Dodgers didn't want anymore.

[B]

I don't want my team to ever deal with Sam Presti in the thunder. You will lose that trade. Yeah.

[A]

You want your team to get to that point where the other teams. That's where Belichick was forever. I think the Celtics of Danny Ainge got to that point where it was, like, amazing. Anyone was trading with Ange, but that's where you want to be. And the Yankees and Red Sox are just not there.

[B]

No.

[A]

And both of them have good pieces, but I don't know. I don't know why the Dodgers wouldn't just keep. Keep winning titles. Which brings us to the next thing you want to talk about, because this all happened since you've been on the sidelines. Ohtani versus Babe Ruth.

[B]

Ohtani's an incredible baseball.

[A]

We should mention you care about baseball. That's your favorite sport.

[B]

No, no, no. That's not true. Baseball's not my favorite team sport. The Yankees are my favorite team.

[A]

Fine.

[B]

Basketball is my favorite team sport.

[A]

But you're a big history nerd. And you remember all the stats and you're one of those guys. So Ohtani's getting thrown around in the.

[B]

Babe Ruth conversation for obvious reasons.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Left handed hitter, great pitcher. What, what Ohtani is doing in this day and age is harder than what Babe Ruth did in his day and age. But to suggest that Ohtani is the greatest player of all time. Ohtani is not the best player in baseball today. Aaron Judge is measure regular season. Regular season. Aaron Judge is measurably, objectively, much, much better than Ohtani.

[A]

Even when you throw in the pitching.

[B]

Yeah. Including the pitching. You add everything up. Judge has more value because he's so much of a better offensive player regular season. But what Ohtani is doing is harder because the more the, the more homogenized the league becomes, the harder it is to get a crazy deviation from the mean. When Babe Ruth is playing against, you know, it's not an international game yet. Not everyone has day jobs playing against the white guys. Right. There's not, there's, there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of diversity or you don't necessarily have all the diversity. You, you will have players who just suck worse than other players will suck in other eras. And players who are incredible more than other eras will have incredible players. So what Ohtani is doing in this day and age is just unbelievable. But that's the level of difficulty of something and how great a player is are two different things. For example, it is rarer to hit for the cycle than it is to hit three home runs in a game. But three home runs in a game are obviously better than hitting for the cycle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ohtani is not the best hitter in the game. And people are a little bit lazy with this. I remember watching Wade Boggs at a certain point and he was hitting like 320. And at that point in the season and the announcer said, there's Boggs when he was with the Red Sox in his prime hitting 320 right where you would expect. And I thought to myself, or he was 3:30 even I thought to myself, wait, stop. I know 330 sounds like a very high batting average to you, but that is not where you would expect Wade Boggs. 360 is where you would expect Wade Boggs. There is a difference, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's that much better at hitting for batting average at least than everybody else. Don't, don't get lazy and say so. Ohtani is one of the best hitters in baseball. Babe Ruth wasn't one of the best Hitters in baseball. The distance between Babe Ruth and the second best guy was a chasm. Babe Ruth was so much better at the plate than everyone in baseball. That is not Ohtani. Even though it was easier to do that then, the fact is that's what happened as a pitcher. It's not just that Babe Ruth was maybe the best left handed pitcher in the league. It's that under pressure, his record for consecutive scoreless innings pitched in the World Series stood longer than his home run record. Right. Single season home run record. It's so it's not just that he was maybe the best left hander in the American League. He was also the best clutch pitcher in baseball history at that point. Probably Right. Like so. So. Yes.

[A]

So you're. You're pouring everybody a glass of settled down juice.

[B]

Settled. Ohtani is incredible. You may never see another Ohtani. Like we didn't see another Babe Ruth for a hundred years. Whatever it is. And what Ohtani's doing is amazing.

[A]

He.

[B]

He's not in the conversation with baby. Not in the conversation.

[A]

He does have something that I don't think Judge completely has. Judge is probably the closest of just owning a ballpark when he's up in a. In a big spot there. It ha. It hasn't happened since early 2000s. Bonds and I don't get the feelings was the last guy when he just was walking from the on deck circle. Judge has it somewhat, especially because of his size. It's just different with Ohtani.

[B]

No, I think when Judge comes to the plate, it's Judge. I think when he's at the plate, the results in the playoffs. I trust Ohtani more.

[A]

Something about. Yeah, and Ortiz. Even Ortiz who was unbelievable. But it's Bonds in the early 2000s and I think we both think Bonds is a Hall of Famer.

[B]

Well, the hall of Fame. Can I talk about that for a second?

[A]

This was another thing you want. It was on your list.

[B]

The hall of Fame is an easy one for the PED era. It's not hard. Why does this escape people if it is very obvious when the person started juicing and it's in the statistical record. I can look at someone's stats, especially if I can couple it with a sudden and dramatic change in their appearance. Yes, that is much more compelling evidence than a receipt from BALCO which could be forged.

[A]

Also in the 90s and 80s and even 70s when guys were doing steroids, it was way more obvious. You can see it in the red Seiko.

[B]

Everyone knew wrestling by the way.

[A]

You can kind of See it in some of the old boxing.

[B]

Which ones?

[A]

Well, it's just the guys. The water steroids were the guys. Their necks would get bigger. I don't want to name Briggs.

[B]

I once asked Shannon Briggs on the radio, who was at this point probably 260 pounds, great guy and a talented fighter. I was like, I know that this is not an either or, but I'm going to ask anyway. Steroids are human growth hormone. And he goes, I've never been caught on a test, but. But Bonds. What you can. You can forge a receipt from balco. What you can't forge is a player in, you know, 12 weeks or 16 weeks putting on 30 pounds of lean muscle on his forehead bulging. What you can't forge is a, you know, fake is a guy whose home run to at bat ratio in the same ballpark in which he's always played, no exterior changes, doubles at the age of 35. Right. It doubled Barry, but. No, but Barry Bonds is a Hall of Famer because he was already one of the two or three or four greatest left fielders who ever lived.

[A]

Right. If he gets hit by a bus in 1999, he's in. Anyway, first ballot hall of Famer Clemens gets hit by a bus and he's borderline. Yeah, yeah. Cause I guess when he went to.

[B]

Toronto, he was in the car.

[A]

He needs the Toronto Square.

[B]

He was in decline. And then suddenly he goes to Toronto and back to back pitching, triple crowds or whatever.

[A]

That probably gets it. And who knows what he was doing.

[B]

I think with longevity and everything, Clemens deserves to be in. McGuire is an absolute no. Sosa's an absolute no. Because I can show you. I don't have to go through it now. In their record, where they. They fundamentally became a different player at a certain point, where their stats put.

[A]

All these guys in, you would put them on. I would just. I would. I wrote this, I think, for ESPN the magazine, maybe in 0607, just put it on the plaque. But it's a Hall of Fame, it's a museum. I'm supposed to bring my son, my grandson, whoever, and teach them about baseball. We're not going to have rewarding, cheating guy. What am I rewarding, though? The guy's already retired and I'm putting it on their plaque that they cheated.

[B]

I have a problem with it.

[A]

And also, how do we know, like, all these sports, I don't know who's cheating and not cheating.

[B]

Drugs are better, fundamentally. Maguire and Sosa, when you look at what they had done in their career, how it was trending. The kind of player they were, were not hall of Famers and then they suddenly became first ballot hall of Famers.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

Bonds was already a, let's say a 4:40 on base. 650 sluggish.

[A]

What'd he do with Piazza, who's never been. We never figured it out one way or the other.

[B]

Piazza in his, in his minor league career, I don't think ever slugged.500. And then eventually he was playing catcher for 140 plus games a year and hitting 40 home runs and hitting three. Whatever. And his on base was in the over 400. Is slugging over 600 you can do with Piazza what you want. I would.

[A]

But you don't think this is happening in other sports now?

[B]

Of course it is.

[A]

Of course it is. That's why I just think the guy, it was easier to figure out who was doing it in baseball because of what the drugs made people look like.

[B]

And, but like, but like, but I just want to just like with Ohtani or with Boggs. No, he's not usually at 330. He's at 360. There is a difference to, to say when Bonds was a mid.400 on base. Mid 600 slugging guy. So people understand you can't really do better than that. Hardly. That's like one of the greatest ever. He did it every year. He then went from that at the age of 35 to a 600 on base guy. 800 slugging guy. It's like in the, in, in the comics if you know Captain America was this like skinny little guy who took super soldier serum and it maxed out human potential. Right. But it's as though.

[A]

It's as though it was the limitless drug.

[B]

No, no. It's as though Bonds, instead of being. What was. What's Captain America's name? I forget his name in the comic books. But it's as though instead of taking the little weakling guy and giving him the super soldier serum, you took the biggest, strongest, best, best athlete in the world, who was Barry Bonds, and gave him super soldier serum. It makes a mockery of the game.

[A]

It seems like it made his eyesight like 20, 10, 25. Like 20 slash 5. Like he, I mean, what was the one year his on base was like 600 and some of those were intentional.

[B]

Walks, most of them.

[A]

But it just seemed like he knew where every pitch was going within an inch either way around the strike zone.

[B]

Craziest baseball stat I think I've ever heard. That year it wasn't the 73 home run year, it was another year that.

[A]

He was like, oh, 2,03 home runs.

[B]

Because they wouldn't pitch to him. Every time the bat left Bonds shoulder, every time he took a swing, it was almost a 50, 50 proposition whether he missed the ball entirely. Between these two outcomes, it was almost 50, 50, missing the ball entirely, getting an extra base hit. He was just about as likely to get an extra base hit every time he swung as he was to miss the ball. So anyway, Bonds is a first ballot hall, should have been a first ballot hall of Famer in spite of the steroids and everything. But he is not the greatest hitter of all time. In other words, it's demonstrable that Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, now Aaron Judge were better hitters than Bonds at Bonds very best until he started changing and then Bonds became the best. But I don't give him credit for that because it wasn't him, it was him plus. But he's still a Hall of Famer. Clemens borderline because of longevity. He's in because he was a borderline hall of Famer at the point where it was clear something was going on. Maguire and Sosa, no way. And so on. Right? Like this stuff ain't that hard.

[A]

Do you have any Mahomes? When the goat stuff started for him, I think you were on the sidelines for that and it was a little early.

[B]

Well, I'd said it after the first preseason game I saw him before he started as a. Before he was going to be the starter that year. So his second season, I was on first take and I said, I know it's one preseason game, but I will tell my grandkids that I saw Patrick Mahomes play. I tell you that right now. I'm going to tell my grandkids I saw him play. Mahomes has something that Brady never had, which is this. To say you're the Michael Jordan of a sport doesn't simply mean you're the greatest of all time. What it means is you put your eyeballs on that guy and you say, that looks different. I haven't seen anything quite like that yet that I haven't seen that. That's. My eyes are telling me that's something new. Then you look down at the stats and you go, oh my God, that verifies what my eyeballs are seeing.

[A]

40 touchdowns, four picks, whatever, right?

[B]

Then you look at this, at the. How far his team is going and they're winning tons of championships. Yeah, that's how you become the Michael Jordan of a sport. Now Is. Has. Is Mahomes near Brady right now? No, of course not. Brady beat him head to head when Brady was old and Mahomes was young, even though Mahomes didn't have an offensive line. But still, Brady never looked the way Mahomes did, as bad as Mahomes did in that. Well, he looked incredible in that super bowl in certain ways because he had to make spectacular plays. But his team got slaughtered because Mahomes has since then also not looked good in another Super Bowl. Right. But Brady, when you. When we remember him, it's like, oh, this guy's got something. But he was kind of like Jeter and Pton was like a rod.

[A]

I remember right in those columns 20.

[B]

Years ago that that Jeter was right. Because one of them.

[A]

Or like Russell Chamberlain, like, same kind of same thing.

[B]

If you look at the numbers, one guy's better. But if you watch them, you know.

[A]

Which, if your life depended on it, for one game, you're not picking the.

[B]

Guy with the numbers. And then Brady, who was also like Jeter and Kobe, a little overrated in the clutch early on, in the sense that, like, the highest level of clutch to me is the Mariano Rivera strata or the Michael Jordan strata. You are the best who ever did it. And in the biggest moments, you become much, much better than yourself. Who's the best ever.

[A]

And it's shocking if you don't come through.

[B]

It's shocking. So, like, Mariano Rivera has the lowest adjusted ERA in the history of baseball for pitchers with over a thousand innings. His adjusted ERA in the postseason is one third of that, or his ERA in the postseason is one third of his regular season era, which is the lowest ever. Yeah, okay. That Michael Jordan, the same thing. He got better. Kobe, Jeter, and Brady, I think are on a level where people think of them as clutch because they just stayed who they were under pressure. I don't think early on, Brady elevated under pressure. I think he was still just a really good ramp.

[A]

First ramp super bowl. He was set to the field goal with 35 seconds left.

[B]

Yeah. Because he's a clutch player.

[A]

But I didn't Super Bowl.

[B]

But did you like his performance when you watched him week in and week out? Got better in the playoffs. No, that was Brady. He would do stuff like that. What I'm saying is I trusted him completely in the playoffs, obviously. Right. What I'm saying is a thing happened to Brady midway through his career where he started putting up Peyton Manning numbers and he started actually elevating in the playoffs, like the comeback against Atlanta The Butler game. The Butler, exactly.

[A]

That's when right around then it tilted. But they still needed to play on defense. But he scores those last two touchdown drives against an incredible defense.

[B]

He went from Jeter Kobe level with that stuff to Jordan Rivera level.

[A]

By the way, the Eagles Super Bowl.

[B]

Well 500 yards.

[A]

Yeah. And I think they had what they have 40 points somewhere around there.

[B]

Really. That super bowl came down to a Brandon. It was. It was the first team to make a defensive play is going to win this game. And it was the Eagles who made the defense.

[A]

The other crazy thing with Brady was they never really. I mean they. He lucked out or didn't look out. They drafted him. But Gronk was like the big. The big AD and then Edelman turned in. But they never. It wasn't like I watched what like the Bears did for Caleb Williams. So they're spending first round picks trading for guys. Never had a situation like that.

[B]

Brady is different in the sense that when you put your eyes on him originally it wasn't like I've never seen this before. Oh my God. Then you look at the stats. Oh my God. That verifies what.

[A]

There was something about Brady when he got the job because I remember being in Boston that year and all we did was argue about Brady vs Bledsoe for three months and I was in the Brady camp and I think I was writing for Ace Pain at the time. So I can back that up. But there was a polish to him. Everything he did was just really high end. Like the play actions were perfect. The way he handed off was always on time. Like his. The passes the guys always caught it wanted you could just kind of tell like oh, there's something different. This guy just does everything well. I don't know what he is but he's something. Whereas Bledsoe was the classic overpaid good say he was like a lamelo ball almost. Even though we'd once.

[B]

I'm not going to mention the executive because I like this guy a lot. I was doing around the horn at the time.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And I said was it Eric Radholm? Nope. It wasn't right. Who was never actually doing around the horn when I was young. But. But I remember saying I think Brady's better than Bledsoe. And this executive told me you can't say that on TV because it was at the time where you. And I was like, have you been watching like Brady's. Brady's who you want. So. So Brady is the goat obviously in football. But Mahomes has A chance to do something Brady really wasn't in the running to do. Brady, like through his prime, was Brady better than Montana? Montana was four. And oh. In the Super Bowl, Montana 13.

[A]

Montana's the Tim Duncan. He's the Tim Duncan of NFL. He's just been cast aside.

[B]

Cast. But. But better than Duncan in his sport.

[A]

When? 1990. By the time he won that fourth one, we were all like, montana's the best. We'll never see another one. And now he's kind of gone.

[B]

But it. But Brady outlasted Montana. Yeah. You can't put Montana ahead of Brady because Brady did it for so long. But at their best. Fate of the universe on the line. I don't think I'm taking Brady over Montana.

[A]

I think Brady would even probably take Montana over Brady. I don't know. I think to me it's a toss up.

[B]

Montana is also such a cool dude. He really was really everything about him. First of all, his name is Joe Montana. He's getting away with this. Joe Montana. You have the nerve to actually be the greatest whoever did it. And your name is Joe Montana.

[A]

He was doing it during this time when quarterbacks just got the fucking shit beaten out of them.

[B]

He was so tough.

[A]

I follow a couple Instagram accounts where they'll just show old hits sometimes. There was this hit on Jaworski that I had forgotten about. When he gets hit from behind, I think it's the Giants. It's like. It's unbelievable. Is he dead? What just happened?

[B]

It's unbelievable.

[A]

Had a bad one against Jim Burt. Was the bad one with him where I think he got knocked out in the playoff game.

[B]

I'll remind everyone. By the way, speaking of Montana. Oh, the Chiefs are cooked. This and that. There was a year that Montana won the super bowl, you know, with the catch. Right. Like that year. At one point, I want to say he was 6 and 5.

[A]

Something like that.

[B]

They won the super bowl that year. Like Brady set a standard. You win seven Super Bowls, it's just insane.

[A]

The Tampa one really pushed it over the top. Plus beating Mahomes twice. The.

[B]

The Tampa one. The fact that. Is it Brady or Belichick is along with. Is it MJ or LeBron? The greatest sports debates of the 21st century.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we have an answer to Brady Belichick, which shocked me. Right. I just always assume NFL is a coach's league. Belichick's good no matter what.

[A]

We have an answer.

[B]

Dude, he went to the Bucks. It's not that he. It's not that he Had a good run like Montana did. Right. When he. It's, it's. He didn't get to the AFC championship game like Montana did. He won the super bowl. And Belichick has not been back to the playoffs.

[A]

I get it. But the 2000s, Belichick gets the edge. He just does. He put together those rosters, the defense and the special teams and the attention to detail and the way he did the roster.

[B]

But could he have done it without me?

[A]

Just more important than Brady?

[B]

Because Matt Castle won a lot of games. They didn't make the playoffs. And by the way.

[A]

I know, but you lose your quarterback in the eight minutes.

[B]

Could he have. And you look at the backup quarterbacks. My argument was, of course it's Belichick, but imagine putting Drew Brees.

[A]

I think Brady gets 2010s. I think he was more important in the second decade. I think Belichick was slightly more important the first decade.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

The roster, like all the guys, the way they looked at how to build, like a chemistry, the locker room, getting the guys like the Vrabel, Rodney Harrison over and over.

[B]

That's not. But that's not the. The debate is also.

[A]

He had the balls to bench Bledsoe for Brady, which nobody would have done.

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

He never gets credit for that.

[B]

I'm not taking away Belichick's credit for that. I am saying that Belichick was the undisputed greatest NFL coach of all time. Don't even compare anyone to him.

[A]

I still feel that way.

[B]

I. I think he's. I think Andy Reid is in the conversation. Bill Parcells is in the conversation. There. There are other people in that conversation in retrospect, but Andy Reid lived in the NFC Championship game. And then as soon as he gets his hands on, like, a great, great. I think McNabb was a great quarterback, but. But he gets his hand on a roster with real talent. Lives in the super bowl, lives there. And it's hard. Like Belichick.

[A]

He needs at least two more before I'm ready to entertain that combo read. Yeah. Here's the problem with Mahomes for the goat combo. He can't throw the deep ball anymore. And it's just a fact. And the stats back it up the ice. He overthrows them when they're open, though. Like, I don't. I just don't think he's had that good of a year this year. He hasn't this year, and he didn't really. The set last year was the same thing where it was good enough. But it wasn't to the same standards.

[B]

He had for the first in the last two years.

[A]

Really five or six was.

[B]

He's his best target. No, his best target.

[A]

I take Rice and Worthy and the Patriots right now they're better than the Patriots receivers.

[B]

I mean I saw him hit Rice with a, with a dime in this last game that they lost. That maybe they don't lose. If Rice ball is in his hands, just drops the ball. Right. Like you can't. Mahomes does not have the same threats on the field offensively receiving threats that he used to. His favorite target is old and not as good anymore.

[A]

I don't know if there's a Tyree kill made Mahomes case he could kind of float out there.

[B]

Except that when he left they still won a Super Bowl.

[A]

I know, but it's just with the stats, when you look at the.

[B]

You're talking about the deep ball. Yeah, right. Like get them some real deep threats. And let's see the deep ball.

[A]

Where are these? Pretty fast. All right, we'll take one more break and then. Wow. We've. We've been going a long time. You have 20 more minutes in you. I.

[B]

All right, dude, we're talking about sports. How much time you got?

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. Thursday Night Football is on and it's only on Prime. This week, the Dallas Cowboys take on the Detroit Lions in a new rivalry with lots of heat. These are two possible playoff teams. Who knew Dallas was going to be back in the mix? Coverage begins at 7pm Eastern with football's best party, TNF Tonight, presented by Verizon. Always fun when it's in Detroit as well. Not a Prime member. Not a problem. Simply sign up for a 30 day free trial. It's the Cowboys and lions Thursday at 7pm Eastern only on Prime Video. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com amazonprime for details. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running Brooks reminds us that we're all powered by something. For me, it's the me time energy of a walk after a workday. I find the positive physical and mental benefits it provides are so valuable. So whether it's the feel good distraction free Ghost, the supercharged Hyperiod Max, or the fan favorite Adrenaline, Brooks makes gear designed to unleash your energy because at the end of the day, one step has the power to change everything. Let's run there. Head to BrooksRunning.com to learn more. Well, we said we were going to talk about you leaving ESPN and you weren't Able to talk about a lot of stuff, and a lot of other people were talking, including people you did shows with. How. How frustrating was it for you to sit on the sidelines, be talked about, but not be able to talk?

[B]

That doesn't bother me at all.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You're talking about me like, I'm not sweating anybody like that. But I was very flattered that, you know, because if you go off the air, you're not sure that the sports world would care. Right. Like, but people seem to care. I was like, oh, look at that. People are thinking about me. I was very flattered by it, tell you the truth. And in terms of the stuff that went down behind the scenes, there were things said to me in private early on that it's not like anyone said to me, hey, this is top secret. Don't repeat this. But I think there's a general understanding that if someone's talking to you in private, it's a private conversation. And I wouldn't repeat that unless they said it was okay to repeat what they told me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's what I could tell you about, like, the behind the scenes stuff on first take, for example. But in terms like, I'm not. I'm really not worried about that stuff, you know, like.

[A]

But you're so Steve and A. You're in a relationship with. Where you're doing a show together for how many years? Four, Five. Five years. You're with this dude every day, seeing him in the mornings, you're commercial breaks, you're hanging out, and then the show ends, or the show ends with you and he moves on with other people. And then, you know, and I should say, I like Stephen A. And I've always gotten along with him. I didn't love how he handled the aftermath of you leaving. Whereas basically, like, I told you the show would be better. I just thought. Cause I think you're really talented. You and I have known each other for a while. Whether it meshed as a show perfectly, I don't know the answer to that, but I just. I. I just didn't think that was the right way to handle it.

[B]

If you're doing a debate show and you're a competitive person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why would you want me as a partner? That's bad. You want to go 15 rounds every day with Muhammad Kellerman. That's just bad. You know, it's. It's embarrassing, you know?

[A]

So you think that was part of it? He didn't want to put the time in or, like, just want a different type of show? What, like, what's your take?

[B]

You know, it's a debate show. You're ready to roll on topics you want to like. If you're. I have an idea. This is what I want to put on TV. I want to spar Bud Crawford every day for 15 rounds and I want everyone to see it. Eventually you're going to say, I don't want to do that anymore.

[A]

And you bring in some other people in a rotating cast. How do.

[B]

That's, that's, that's one aspect of it. There are others. In other words, that's what I could tell you from my point of view.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I also think that, that if you make a calculation that if you can be perceived as a solo act, really, that you can get paid at a certain level that you can't. If you're not a solo act, then you'd like to be a solo act or at least perceive that way.

[A]

Well, so like Mike and the Mad Dog are a good example of a show where it was the two of them together for a long, long time. And then all of a sudden, whatever happened, happened. Mike got his own show and he stayed on top for.

[B]

Do you know who was supposed to know who he wanted to be in Mad Dogs? Oh, yeah, that was the plan. I was supposed to go over and work with Mike. Yeah.

[A]

Interesting, because I got the call. Who else got the call?

[B]

I don't know, but we had like come to an understanding.

[A]

So you're going to leave ESPN and do it?

[B]

I did leave ESPN to do.

[A]

But not to do a show with Mike.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You did the show with Mike?

[B]

No.

[A]

So what happened?

[B]

I think again, my, my interpretation of what happened. My analysis is, I think it. I think he realized at a certain point they're not going to make me take a partner. Why should I take a partner? Because I'm beating the hell out of the guys across town by myself. I think when he thought they're going to make me take a partner, then it was like, okay, well, I'd like it to be with that guy. And then when it was like, I don't need a partner.

[A]

Yeah. That's too bad though, because I actually think he, long term, he did need a partner because it's always good to have people to play off of.

[B]

Look, I don't need a partner either.

[A]

No.

[B]

But I like having one because I find conversations more interesting than just talking into the wind, you know.

[A]

And over the years you had Brian Kenny. Yeah.

[B]

Jim Lampley, Marcellus Wiley Marcellus for a while, great partners. And in Fact, I become good friends with the people I work with because I like Bill. You know, better than anybody, we're getting away with it. If you're in this business, you're getting away with it. We're talking about sports, right.

[A]

And, like, you're doing this anyway.

[B]

Come on. It's your job as a guy, like, an average American guy. It's your job to follow sports. It's like, literally what you have to do. You have no choice in the matter. Right. You got to find out what's going on you. And so how to make that experience even better. Hang out with your friends and talk about sports. Right. Like, why would you not want to do that? It's interesting because Stephen A. Was the one partner I've ever had over, like, years where I didn't feel like a relationship was really forming. And I like to go to work.

[A]

And you can feel a little bit watching it. And it was hard to tell how much of it was theater and how much of it was like, oh, these guys just don't get along in the.

[B]

Same way, or whatever you feel about who you're working with and what the situation is. To me, a cardinal sin is betraying that on the air. You should always be thinking about making the show entertaining. And I do think it reached the point on that show where it was like, come on, dude. The first priority is to make good tv.

[A]

Well, it becomes. I mean, good TV is like professional wrestling. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Both guys have moves. Guess all the other guys move.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

And I think we've all been in situations who've done this where you're with somebody who. Or on a. On a bigger show where people either selling your moves or they're not.

[B]

Right. Exactly right. And. But he's a showman. Like. Like, he would. I never had to worry about when the little red light come on, that it wouldn't be a show, but it would be like, you don't want to be undermined.

[A]

You know, is that a fun show to do? Like, did you like doing. What was it, two hours a day of just five days a week of having to react and just be like, preserve the moment stuff?

[B]

The issue with that show is this. What is a hot take? A hot take is a counterintuitive conclusion that on tv you're going to just state your conclusion. You do analysis about a subject, you come to a conclusion that's counterintuitive. So when you say it, people will be like, what are you talking about? Give me 90 seconds, I'll explain it to you. Oh, at least he has a point of view. If you have. If there are 12 topics a day and you have 12 hot takes on those topics because by and large, there's a consensus about sports.

[A]

These.

[B]

This guy's good. This guy's not as good. Whatever it is, this team in the right direction, the wrong direction, whatever it is, the consensus is usually correct, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sometimes some small percentage of the time. Aha. In fact, what everyone thinks is not true. If you have a counterintuitive conclusion about every topic in sports every day, you are insane. Like, I. Skip Bayless is very entertaining and I always enjoy my interactions with him privately. Yeah, he's got. He's insane, right? Like, you can't. You. You said 12 hot takes a day. Unbelievable. Right? Right. You've come to 12 conclusions that go against the consensus every single day that you're going to. But Stephen A Has no hot takes. Stephen A. Almost never. I can't think of any counterintuitive conclusions that he ever reaches. That's not his job on the air. His job is to be the big reactor to a counterintuitive, counter conclusion reactor. Just. He's there to hear the crazy conclusion that his partner has come to and actually be the everyman with a loud voice like, you are crazy. Right. And do it theatrically. So there's a lot of pressure on his partner to come up with a counterintuitive conclusion about everything. Now how do you do that? Well, you're just making it up. You're doing it for tv. No, what you do is you take a topic and a good producer will start to drill down on the topic and say, okay, so you agree about this. So Mahomes is a great quarterback, but what does he do well and what does he not? And you keep going down until one or the. Until you get a divergent opinion. Well, actually, I think he is good at this. No, I think he's good. No, actually, the most important player on that. We both think this is going to win. That this team's going to win the championship. We both think this is why drill down. But no, actually the key player is. Other than the superstar is this guy. No, it's that guy. Actually, Draymond Green is the second most player, important player on the Warriors. Right. He's actually the pick and roll partner who does all the dirty work.

[A]

Victor Wembanyama is the best player in the NBA right now.

[B]

There you go. There's a counterintuitive conclusion that you. So. But you keep digging until you get a divergent opinion. And there is your argument. But there was a lot of pressure on that show. Like. Like Stephen A's opinion will not diverge into counterintuitive almost ever. So his big take will be. But he'll deliver it theatrically. Is. Steph Curry is the greatest shooter that God ever created. Who does not know this? Yeah, everyone knows this. A counterintuitive take would be. Actually, you know who the best shooter on the warriors is? It's Klay Thompson. Because when you. I'm making this up. I don't believe this. I thought it was Steph, but. Because when you say greatest, you have to talk about high leverage moments, too. And I have more confidence in Klay hitting a high leverage moment three than I do Steph. Something like that. Right. That will never happen. So there was pressure on that show for me to keep digging until you hear something you think is crazy.

[A]

This is the perfect example of what you just said. Jalen Brunson is the best Knick of all time.

[B]

There you go. Do you believe that?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, then. Then you can't say that.

[A]

It's arguable, though.

[B]

But. But you have to keep digging until you find the thing that Bill Simmons.

[A]

Thinks is actually true on those shows. If I say that in a production meeting, they're like, that's amazing.

[B]

They'll go nuts.

[A]

But segment. Segment two, let's do.

[B]

But you should not say the thing you don't believe you know, you should stick with. And that's. So the difficulty with me on that show was it was a lot of work to keep digging until I said the thing that I believed that would also get a reaction.

[A]

But on top of it, they're telling you Cowboys, Lakers, Knicks, Yankees, like they're. It's all the big teams for good reason. Over and over again. That's the red meat.

[B]

You fish where the fish are.

[A]

Like right now, the Cowboys having a little run. It's perfect. Cause it's actually reasonable to talk about them. I remember when I was doing Countdown, they're trying to make us lead with the Lakers all the time. Because that's coming from Bristol, of course. Lead with the Lakers again. It's like, well, can we lead with Memphis? They're. They just traded Rudy Gay and the team's better. That's really interesting. First, do not.

[B]

Do not lead Rudy.

[A]

No, no. Talk about Kobe. Kenny make. How high can they get? And then we'd have to do that segment again, of course. And that's kind of the ESPN Red Me philosophy.

[B]

By the way. The first thing I said on first take that drove everyone nuts was Tom Brady's going to fall off a cliff. Right.

[A]

I remember that. That made me angry.

[B]

Yeah. And I. Well, the part that I didn't like and I apologize it for. About it the next day and they didn't like it on the show. When I apologize was I said he's going to be a bum in short order. But I was just being kind of con. I was talking the way you talk in a bar. Right. I didn't really mean a. I just meant a guy. Just a guy. A jag is what I should have said, but it was just based on every quarterback who ever lived.

[A]

Is this a defend your meme?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I was. But I was wrong about that because on every quarterback who ever lived after the age of 40 or 41, they fell off a cliff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He kept going. The odds were that I was correct.

[A]

In what I was saying right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're redefining stuff. He's just going to keep getting hurt, have small injuries, and his body's going to break down the way Carl Malone stayed once upon a time.

[B]

Correct. But when I said that about Brady, they loved it because that would get traction. Right. Because you still remember it 15 years later.

[A]

Well, it's what can cut into a social media clip, which unfortunately is a lot of the economy of these conversations.

[B]

Right. Like you say things on your podcast, I'm sure all the time that get repurposed. And it's like because when you. Because again, if all you see is the counterintuitive conclusion and you don't have the pro. The analysis of how you got there, then it sounds. Did you just sound crazy?

[A]

Well, a good one is like we do. We always do the NBA over under pods, which I've been doing since espn, where the wins the over unders. When you go over under, you're hoping to like in the NFL. Last year I went 27 5, which will never happen again.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This year I'm probably close. I'm probably closer to 17 and 15 this year.

[B]

It's not. Still not bad. You're.

[A]

But you're making the case for each team, you're not going to be right about all of them. And then if they like I thought the Vegas. I couldn't figure out who the seventh AFC playoff team was going to be. And I. It was like Vegas, Indianapolis, Jacksonville. So I just went with new coach Pete Carroll following Antonio Pierce. Easier schedule, maybe that's 9 and 8. I picked them.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

They're going to go 2 and 15. You could cut out the argument I made for them into a clip, and it's probably going to be really bad. But you could also take the argument I made for why the Pats? I thought they could be a playoff team. It's. You can cherry pick all this stuff.

[B]

But if you hear the explanation, crazy.

[A]

About it is my point, by the way.

[B]

Let me say something else about that. If you do real analysis and you always come to the intuitive position, your powers of analysis aren't very good. Right. You're. You're affected by. You're overly affected by groups you're talking about.

[A]

It's like that you want to have a smart zag every so often.

[B]

Well, I don't think you even have to look for it. Just if you're really thinking about something now, if you come to that counterintuitive conclusion, you're in a room of a hundred people and 99 people think you're wrong. You should absolutely double check to make sure that you believe what you think you believe. Because the chances are you're wrong and they're right. But, Bill, sometimes you check and you check and you check and you go, no, in fact, I'm right and they're wrong. And that's great. Then you could, you know.

[A]

Well, it's funny, when you talk NFL, there are some things that are reliable every year, like the new coach following a bad coach.

[B]

Yep. Little bump.

[A]

The bump combined with the easy schedule like that was why the Patriots checked every single box for. I know this is crazy, but it seems like they could be a playoff team. And here are all the reasons why. Right? The Bears are. When it gets a little stretchier because they're in a hard division. Who knows if Ben Johnson, we've seen Mike McDaniel, we've seen some of these offensive coordinator geniuses. All of a sudden they're not good. When they get a head coach, who knows if Caleb's going to be good. The Bears history outdoors. I. I picked them to make the playoffs. I didn't feel great about it, but that's one where there was a case. And now the case looks awesome.

[B]

So all year I thought the. Because I've been watching been. Been going to some Rams games with Rich and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think they have a great quarterback who. Remember when I was saying, if you have to believe, you're. You have that guy on your team. One of the reasons I think teams fold against guys like Brady is because when Brady marches the bucks down the field and throws a touchdown, if you don't Have Matthew Stafford on the team. And we had to find out about Stafford then that already even in the quarterbacks, you're thinking, of course I'm going to lose to Brady.

[A]

That's what the Patriots have right now.

[B]

Stafford went right back down the field. Yeah. And he went. So they have that guy at quarterback. They have a great third down defense especially I think the Rams, they have a great coach, all that stuff. So all year, I'm saying, I'm thinking, I don't have a platform to talk about it. I think the Rams should be the super bowl favorites. Here's a counterintuitive one.

[A]

And well coached too.

[B]

Great coach.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How about right now? Who would be your hot take team to win the super bowl right now?

[A]

Hot take team.

[B]

I got one right on the tip of my tongue.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Texans.

[A]

Sal and I talked about that Sunday.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

So I was doing it from the context of who am I the most afraid to play in a playoff game with my young precocious New England Patriots? It's like, you know how I don't want to see the Texans.

[B]

No one want. Because if you have a defense that's peaking at the right time and you have a quarterback who might be that dude. Right. Have you seen evidence in the past where maybe he could be that? Right. And. And a coach that the players like a leader of men, guys, you know, like, they got all those things.

[A]

The Bears are the wild card to me in the other conference. Just because of the way they ran the ball in Philly. Kind of broke my brain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like that could actually. Yeah, that could actually work in January for at least one upset. I don't know if it could work round after round. And I don't trust Caleb. But that's nothing you do.

[B]

No one feels sorry for you right now. You got the coach and the quarterback.

[A]

That's all you need.

[B]

And the quarterback is so young. And you're set. Like Patriots fans are set. You're going to be.

[A]

I texted somebody about that the other day. Like barring something crazy happening once you have the combo, it's like this is 12 years.

[B]

It's the whole thing.

[A]

This is. This is it. We can always. You can patch around these two things, but you need the two things.

[B]

Do the Broncos have a. That combo? Is Bo Nix a combo?

[A]

I. I'm not quite there with them. Are you?

[B]

I don't know about Bo Nix. I will say that there have been certain coaches on my mind recently. I mentioned J.J. redick. He's on my Mind a lot. I just, I'm so impressed with what he's doing. Sean Payton is just unbelievable, what he's done to that franchise. A mess of a franchise. And that's like, there, there's. It's not an accident.

[A]

It's a culture rebuild. It's an accountability. It's looking for certain guys. Like all the guys. If you study all the guys, variable sign. They're all like locker room guys.

[B]

Like Spillane brings in.

[A]

Yeah, Spillane, Matt Collins, Moses. Like all these dudes who were like, well liked on the teams they're on. Harold Landry, he knew because he coached him and he just, he wanted the team to be unselfish. Got rid of some guys from the Belichick era, in some cases, just because they were part of the Belichick era. Like, they traded Keon Wade, who I actually think was like, decent and now plays every stat for the Niners, it seems like. But he was like, you know what? This team's moving this way. I want guys that are swimming all the same way this way.

[B]

Sean Payton.

[A]

Sean Payton, same thing.

[B]

The Broncos remind me of the old Patriots, like the early Brady Patriots, in the sense that they give you a sense that you're in the game. Like, there are a dozen teams in the NFL right now who think we almost beat the Broncos. No, you didn't. You know, like, I have this theory in sports and it applies to boxing, but it applies to all sports. The great offense will always be overrated when it comes up against mediocrity because mediocrity has nothing to stave off the offense, so it gets overwhelmed. Yeah, the great, well rounded fighter or team will always be underrated when it goes up against mediocrity because it will beat them, but it'll beat them the way a chess master beats someone, which is you tighten the vice, right? Like you accrue all these small advantages and in the end you win. But it seemed competitive or at least like the other team was, that was.

[A]

Giants last night and that was. They could have put up 50 and they were like, yeah, let's save some for next few weeks.

[B]

Greatest show on turf, right? It's like the great, well rounded team or individual athlete needs another great to go up against to really show you what they have and what we've seen from the Broncos. I think the reason people are not maybe convinced about the Broncos is because they're that. Because they, they, they are a team that will figure out a way to win. And until you see them under pressure in the playoffs against Another great team. You're not going to believe it, but I'm not convinced that they won't do it.

[A]

Yeah. So I always keep track of wins, losses and then either or games.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think they have five actual wins where they beat the other team. Buffalo has eight. To me, Buffalo is still the team, I think for some reason has gotten written off a little bit, mainly because of that Thursday night Houston game.

[B]

They don't have a lot of weapons.

[A]

They don't have a lot of weapons, but they still have a great, a great, great, great player, decent infrastructure. They've been in a bunch of big games. So they're not going to be scared. So I don't. I. I mean, I honestly think this is the hardest season to figure out a long time. The Pats are finally favorites in the afc. It took forever because it seems like they're probably going to get the one seed.

[B]

Yeah. But that's the only reasons. Even the Buffalo. One of the reasons I'm so high on the Texans is because I saw them on a short week right for Buffalo do what they did.

[A]

Just crushed it. The problem is the Chiefs are probably not making the playoffs.

[B]

I don't. I'm not ready to say that.

[A]

They're two back from those wild card teams.

[B]

I will believe it. When they're dead and buried, I'll believe.

[A]

And they've lost to three of the teams that they could potentially be an Italian. So it's like pretty grim.

[B]

There was a middleweight champion in the early 1900s named Stanley Ketchel, one of the biggest punchers of all time. He was shot dead when he was 24 years old. And I'm forgetting who gave the quote. Famous newspaper guy. I think at the time. I'm forgetting who it was though. At his funeral they said, start counting to 10.

[A]

Let's see if he gets up.

[B]

Let's see if he gets up. That's how I feel about Patrick Mahomes. Start counting to 10 and when you get to 10 out, I'll believe he's out of it and not until then.

[A]

I'd be delighted to see them not make it. I don't want to see them in the playoffs either.

[B]

Of course you don't. You have ulterior motives, though.

[A]

Texans is my number one. I don't want to see you in a playoff game.

[B]

You have you. What it comes down to at the core is you want Mahomes out of the conversation.

[A]

And if Brady thing.

[B]

Of course, of course. If they can. Like what. What Mahomes and the Chiefs have Done, by the way, in a tougher division. Brady and what Brady and Belichick done will never be done again.

[A]

But you know, I'm a results guy, Max, but like two years ready to entertain the Mahomes and the goat conversation. But Brady never went like 9 and.

[B]

8 to entertain it. But that doesn't say what you're rooting for.

[A]

Brady never went 9 and 8 because.

[B]

What a much easier division though. And all you have to do is win the division. You get a buy in the first round. Right. Like, I'm not diminishing what they did. It'll never happen again. It's never going to happen again. Especially since they did it in an era of great parody. In fact, it just doesn't seem like that.

[A]

I don't think it can happen again.

[B]

It'll never happen again. But the Chiefs Patrick Mahomes career, he's never not been to the AFC championship game. I know, dude.

[A]

It's a good goat resume thingy.

[B]

I mean, ridiculous.

[A]

Can we talk boxing before we go quickly? Just because I barely have anyone to talk boxing to other than Van and a couple other people.

[B]

I love the fact that you like, you're to me, a good bellwether in terms of what the sports fan in America cares about. I, you know, as much about boxing as you do. Always made me feel good as a boxing fan because it meant that like it's, it's. At some level it's still important.

[A]

Well, I mean, 70s and 80s, it was as important as anything. Yeah. Mannix always calls me Big fight Bill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I show up for the big ones. I might not be watching that. The zone fight, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. Maddox, my guy.

[A]

Mid July, maybe. I'm not showing out for the flyweight championship and you know, Riyadh.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But I watch all the big ones. Who's. As we head into 26, who is our number one draw right now?

[B]

Who's the. Who's the number one draw in boxing or who's the best fighter in the world?

[A]

Give me draw first then. Best fighter in the world.

[B]

Draw. Did crock might still be Canelo Alvarez. You know, if you have the Mexican fan base in North America. Yeah, you have a lot. Anthony Joshua in England will still bring him out for sure.

[A]

I meant draw from like public being excited about a fight because I. Because I think Canelo had the American public. Yeah, just everybody.

[B]

I mean, to me.

[A]

Did Crawford grab this with beating Canelo?

[B]

Maybe. I think the hardcore fans certainly are interested in bud Crawford. I think. I mean, my answer is Crawford the guy who I'm most interested in watching is Crawford because he is this generation's goat in this people. How could you be the greatest all time in this generation? There are some guys that make a certain impression on contemporary audience audiences that you can't tell that audience anything. Their guy was the best. Right. Crawford's one of those guys. He's like the boxing fans who watched Crawford in this era might pick him against anyone ever when all is said and done.

[A]

Well, I remember and you're obviously the hardest hardcore boxing guy, but I've always had boxing people in my life and there was somebody I was friends with in the 90s who would get so mad if, if anyone thought Roy Jones wasn't the best fighter. Like there's certain guys that resonate with the hardcore people where they're like, they'll actually want to get in a fight if somebody's like, yeah, but what about. It's like there's no what about. It's Roy Jones.

[B]

Roy Jones. At one point. At one point, Roy Jones. If I would have told you, remember what you were thinking when Mike Tyson knocked out Michael Smith in 90 seconds. I'm sure you watched that fight, right?

[A]

Oh my God. My mom hadn't even brought down the, all the pizza and wings she made for me and my friends yet. And the fight was over.

[B]

So what no one was saying at the time, but everyone was thinking was he might be the best fighter of all time. Right. Like everyone would say Muhammad Ali, but it's almost out of respect. What people were feeling is that. And if I would have told you on that night, there's a junior, middleweight, amateur who's only a year younger than Mike, who will never come close to actually losing a fight, who will be the champion at middleweight, super middleweight, light heavyweight, jump up to heavyweight, beat a top five guy and one day open as a two to one favorite to beat Mike Tyson, you would say that is not possible. If what you're saying is true, you're describing the greatest fighter ever. That was Roy Jones at the moment he beat John Ruiz. Had he Never melted off 25 pounds of lean muscle to go back down to light heavy where he was never the same again.

[A]

Well, and then he got cold cocked and that's. But that's why guys are never the same after they get cold.

[B]

But like if you. He didn't melt off 25 pounds of fat. Yeah, he was all muscle. Yeah, he melted off 25 pounds of lean muscle and was visibly not the same guy. It wasn't just the Tarver knockout. Yeah, he fought a guy, Glen Cough Johnson. He got abused every round and knocked out and like abused it. Roy never lost a round. Even if you think, well someone could have caught him. He was up eight rounds to one, right? Like, not that anyone did catch him. If he would have stayed at heavyweight and fought, let's say Holyfield and Tyson and at that point in their careers, let's say he beats those two guys.

[A]

In, he would have been Tyson, huh? He would have been Tyson. Tyson had his off the off the ring stuff was, was insurmountable at that point.

[B]

If he did that, even forget just Tyson and retires, he would be considered hands down the greatest of all time. But that's not the way it happened.

[A]

Well, you're describing my Billy Corgan theory. If Billy Corgan, they put out the melancholy double album and then he's just like abducted by an alien and is never seen again. We're talking about him reverentially as one of the five most important musicians we've had. And Roy Jones, if he just after the Ruiz fight just is in Roswell and it gets zapped up and he's just gone and we don't know what happened.

[B]

It's him and Ray Robinson is what people would be talking about. But Crawford is, Crawford is like, you know, there was Floyd Mayweather before Crawford. There'll be another guy after Crawford. Once upon a time there was Ray Robinson and everyone who lived through those errors will say no, that guy Crawford is this era. That guy you're not going to, you know, especially if he, if he wins one or two more big fights and retires, he's in the conversation.

[A]

It goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning, about the moments that could shift you one way or the other. Like if Hagler just knocks out Leonard in 87 and retires, his career is remembered, I think completely differently. Instead it's like people almost bring up the Hearns fight and that fight and then him just disappearing and moving to Italy. He was so mad he lost the Leonard decision and it just completely changed how the career's discussed now 40 years.

[B]

Ago, you want me to do two minutes on Hagler right now?

[A]

I mean I could do two hours on him, but.

[B]

So Hagler is a hard bitten, learning his craft by paying his dues guy. And Sugar Ray Leonard is the uber talented wunderkind who wins the Olympic gold medal.

[A]

The appointed Ali successor by Howard Cosell 7up ads he turns pro.

[B]

He makes 50,000 in his pro debut. Hagler's on the undercard, he makes whatever, he makes 1 20th of that, whatever it is.

[A]

And nobody would fight him for three.

[B]

Four years, nor he would fight Hagler. He had to go into the middleweight lion's den of Philadelphia. All the black middleweights who were being avoided, the black murderers Row, Benny Briscoe, Bobby Boogaloo Watts and Eugene Cyclone Hart and all these guys, and he lost to them. And then he rematched them and beat them, and then he rubber matched some of them and knocked them out. And when he emerged from that era, he was a killer, right? But he was. They fought for the their first world titles on the same card.

[A]

Leonard and Hagler got robbed by Vito.

[B]

Leonard got a million dollars to beat a great Wilfred Benitez by 30 seconds left in the fight, stops him in a close, tough fight. Hagler beats Antifermo, gets a draw, Leonard gets the title. Hagler makes 40 grand, Leonard makes a million. So this keeps going on. Finally when he gets to fight Sugar Ray Leonard, after Leonard made him fight.

[A]

He beats Minter for the title. And it's basically a riot. And they're throwing bottles.

[B]

I'm just editing details.

[A]

Nothing went right until the Hearns, nothing went right.

[B]

And even Leonard has a press conference within in the ring. Hagler shows up ringside because Hagler thinks he's going to announce he's coming back because he had the detached retina, Leonard. So he retired, he's going to announce he's coming back to fight me. And instead Leonard announces his retirement, invites him, invites him in rounds.

[A]

Actually, I had Ray on my podcast when I was at ESPN and I think I asked him about that. So it was kind of like fucked up psychological warfare. So he invites him to the thing, makes it seem like he's going to announce, and then tells him no payday, I'm sorry, it'll never happen. And Hacker's like what Sugar Ray Leonard had made.

[B]

What is $11 million for fighting Roberto Duran, $13 million for fighting Tommy Hearns. Back when the highest paid team athlete in sports was Dave Winfield. Two million a year. Leonard's making five and six times as much in a night. He's making 700K and Leonard's making 13 million. So Hagler sees this, sees it, and finally Leonard, when he gives him the shot, right, Hagler's the champ, but Leonard's giving him the payday. He says, all right, I want a 12 round fight instead of a 15 round fight. And I want whatever it was, thumbless gloves or, you know, because of the retina. But the main thing was the 12 instead of 15 rounds, because that was in an era where it could have been either one. And Hagler agreed to it because Leonard said, instead of us each taking 14 million, you take 15, I'll take 13. He knew how much that would mean to Hagler. He purchased those three rounds where Leonard won the fight. I mean, Leonard won the first four rounds. Everyone agrees. So now Hagler has the next eight, and all Leonard has to do is win two and get a draw. Hagler didn't win seven of the next eight. He won most of them, but not seven of them. And so he ran out of rounds in the end.

[A]

I think I've argued about this fight with more people over my life than any other sporting event.

[B]

Hagler, Leonard.

[A]

Yeah, because I think Leonard won, and I thought Hagler was off his game, the whole thing. He was off balance. I just don't think he fought a good fight.

[B]

More psychological warfare. Leonard, the pretty boy like Hagler, destruct and destroy for Tommy Hearns. He's going to go right through him against Leonard. He wanted to show he could outbox him. He even talked about that a little as the fight approached. So instead of coming out southpaw and Leonard had a hard time, he comes out orthodox, gives away four rounds, turn southpaw in the fifth. Now it's a different fight, but Leonard wins a couple of those rounds late and gets a decision.

[A]

I talked to Hagman about that, by the way. Duran did that to Leonard in the first fight.

[B]

In the first fight, yeah, in the.

[A]

Montreal fight, because he basically just challenged his manhood for four straight months. Then Leonard's like, I'm going to fight this guy.

[B]

That was what Clubber Lang was based on in Rocky 3. Consulting the wife. That was all based on Duran. But Durant, I always thought, was the reason Leonard came out and fought Hagler. Because after Duran fought Hagler and lost to him close, he told Sugar Ray after the fight, you get him.

[A]

You.

[B]

You'll beat him. And I think that's why Leonard took.

[A]

Well, Leonard always said he never was going to fight Hagar until he saw the Mugabe fight and saw how much punishment just. And that fight's incredible. That's like that. If I was going to do a starter kit for. For boxing fans to learn about the 70s and 80s, I would like Hagler. Mugabe would be on there.

[B]

Great fight.

[A]

It's so good. I mean, the number one would be Foreman Lyle. Just. I'm not going to tell you who wins. Just watch this.

[B]

I got one. Better for you than either one of those. Corrales Castillo.

[A]

Oh yeah, that's a great one.

[B]

Corrales Castillo one and Prior Arguello one.

[A]

Prior Arguello one's incredible. It's also a good. That's a good. Legendary Nights.

[B]

I like the fact that you have Leonard Hearns one here.

[A]

It's my favorite fight.

[B]

It is. It's mine too. And I think that was actually, all things considered, the highest level of boxing we've ever seen. Like two impossibly great fighters, no excuses, at their very best in a 15 round fight. Tommy Hearns, welterweight, as close to unbeatable a fighter as you could possibly imagine. Sugar Ray Leonard somehow figured out a way to get it done in a fight he was losing.

[A]

Like, well, in the fight, switched gears five times exactly. Yeah, I did. I did that close circuit in the Boston Garden with my dad and most of the people there rooted for Hearns and I was fucking outraged. I was so mad because Ray was like my guy.

[B]

I remember before that fight reading in a magazine, Emmanuel Stewart, who's Tommy Hearns trainer at the time, talking about how Dundee was saying, Angela Dundee, Leonard's trainer, saying, this is how, why Leonard's going to win. And Emmanuel was saying this is why Tommy Hearns was going to win. And I was a big Leonard fan as a kid too. And when I was done reading what Emmanuel said, I was so scared. He said, it's gonna feel like Sugar Ray Leonard is in a tank and it's just filling up with water. And I thought to myself, that's exactly what this is like.

[A]

I still can't believe he won.

[B]

I believe it.

[A]

Like Hearns, we talk before we started taping, I was saying how Hearns was like the. I think I might have written this somewhere at some point, but he was the other team in the best sports movies.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

And he just like you kind of needed. He just. There was that he was a freak. You were talking about Mahomes before, about. I've never seen this before. Like we've never seen Tommy before. The 6 foot 147 guy who hit like a fucking tractor, who, who could.

[B]

Outbox you because he had a 78 inch reach and could box and could jab and as an amateur wasn't a puncher, he was a boxer.

[A]

Well, that was the frustrating thing about the Leonard fight. It felt like he figured that out over the second part of the fight. Like, oh, I'll just box Ray right?

[B]

Hurt him in the body with that left hook.

[A]

Like then he. Then he finally, Leonard finally got him but, yeah, that's. It's the roller coaster of that fight.

[B]

I'm happy for that. Tommy now, in retrospect, at the time, it was like, well, he lost to Leonard, then he lost to Hagler. He's not. But I think as time has passed, his position all time, like, he's seen as other than like, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard. He's the greatest welterweight ever, probably.

[A]

You know what's a great fight? That is a great fight for a different reason than people think it's a great fight is Tyson, Douglas. It's actually like a great fight. Like, forget about the biggest upset of all time and all that stuff and just how amazing that was, how well Douglas boxed.

[B]

The fact that Tyson knocked him down.

[A]

And Douglas Hutton that night is about as much as you would want from a heavyweight. Like, he total package. Right, left, left, left. He's got size, quick rights, he can throw uppercuts 100%.

[B]

And he showed a lot of heart getting off the canvas and finishing the.

[A]

Job should have been done.

[B]

He was always a talented guy. He just was never really motivated properly.

[A]

But we could talk boxing forever. So your podcast with Rich is starting next week?

[B]

You tell me it's starting next week. Great.

[A]

We're starting it next week. It's happening. We're going to launch. We're going to launch the feed later this week so people can subscribe. And then you and Rich, a guy you've known for a long, long time. And you told me once upon a time, maybe three months ago, I was trying to get you to do something for a while with us. And you're like, well, I'm down the road with this other thing. And it turns out it's Rich. And I'm like, rich, how's this gonna work? And then we all went to lunch, and I got it within 10 minutes.

[B]

I knew that. The thing about knowing you for a while and knowing Rich for a while is that if there was any issue, it was easily fixable. It was like, that's something that get hashed out.

[A]

I mean, that part I was more concerned. Like, how is Rich gonna be a host on a podcast? Like, this guy is like one of the biggest power brokers in the NBA. Is he gonna be forthcoming? But it's like, the bottom line is he's a huge sports fan. He's like a one of us. He's gonna have takes on everything. And by the way you guys have.

[B]

The chemistry is brutal with his own clients. Like, in the sense that he will tell you, Rich will tell you what he thinks. And he manages to do this thing even when he was, like, a source for me. Right. When I was. When I was on ESPN and he was an agent. He manages to do this thing where he's never positioning you in a way that's gonna burn you. Like, if Rich gave me information I never had to worry about, I'm gonna get burnt by this. Cause he's giving me this information to position me for his client right now. Sometimes it was beneficial for his client, but it was the truth.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

If Rich tells the Celtics, you could trade for ad, he's not gonna resign here. He's not telling them that. Cause it's not true. Telling that. Cause it's true. That's not the plan. And so he's. He manages to be extremely straightforward and honest, even when the honesty is highly critical, even of people he works for and with, and also maintain good relationships because people know it's coming from the right place.

[A]

So we're going to go. It's going to be three, three times a week in the middle. Podcast of the week. Probably a guest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At least for part of it. We're going to try to get some. Some, some. I mean, turns out Rich has a pretty decent Rolodex of possible guests, but there's a kind of bringing different people in to hang with you guys that I think is going to be a piece of this.

[B]

It's funny. One of the reasons that we're with you is because I have done lots of stuff that has been repurposed as podcasts. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Marcellus and I, we did a radio show in LA that did great as a podcast. Nationally, we were beating most of the national podcasts on ESPN as an LA podcast. And we were by far, like the biggest local podcast. And I've done TV shows that have been repurposed. I've never done a straight podcast. So, like, you're the guy for that. Like, 100%. Thank you. But when even things like, okay, we should do a guest on Wednesday. When we first started talking about that, it didn't fully occur to me. When you have a guest on a podcast, that's the show that day.

[A]

Well, it could be. Most of.

[B]

It's not like a segment. It's not like the guy's going to be on there for five minutes. Right. It's not pti. A good five minutes.

[A]

True.

[B]

And even something like that, when you haven't been through it, I wasn't thinking that way. I was like, yeah, we could just do a guest on this Day. On this day. No, no, actually, when you have a guest come in and sit for your podcast, that's kind of the show that day.

[A]

Well, it's. So we're gonna. It's gonna be a video pod, and it'll be part of the Netflix thing we're doing. And I. Yeah, I have high hopes for this one. I think it's gonna be good. I'm glad you're talking sports again. It's great to have you back. I missed hearing your voice on things.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks. That's. That's really. You don't know how people feel about that. If you're gone, the world goes on. And. And it was nice to hear, like, around the industry and from sports fans that. That they were still thinking about me to the extent that they think about, you know, anyone in, you know, talking about the sports.

[A]

The only person who's bummed out is House Steinbrenner. He's gonna be taking some hits.

[B]

I don't think he's. I'm not as down on him as a lot of people. He's just not rich enough. Yeah, he's only worth, like, $2 billion.

[A]

That's a good what if, right? Like, if the. If the guy who was supposed to run the Yankees doesn't end up falling apart with the Steinbrenner's daughter. Yeah, that guy. What was that guy's name? Whatever that guy's name was. He was supposed to run the Yankees, and he actually would have been good at it. And then Hal didn't really want to run them and kind of working out. Yeah, Hank. Wasn't happening.

[B]

But my suggestion would be sell the team.

[A]

Or how about sell it? Sell 30% of it and bank some of the money so you don't have to be cheap anymore.

[B]

Right. What's the relative Yankees?

[A]

I don't know. It's probably like a. 11 billion. 10 billion.

[B]

30% is 10 billion. You think?

[A]

Oh, I'm saying. So see, I don't need.

[B]

I don't need Hal Steinbrenner to be worth 5 billion. I need the next owner of the Yankees worth 20 billion.

[A]

Well, maybe you do. Like what the Lakers did, where you sell a piece and then five years later, that person.

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

That's what you do. All right, Max, good to see you. I look forward to your pod.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks so much to Max. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. Don't Forget, new Rewatchables. Rocky 2, it is up. Don't forget about the Jeff Buckley documentary we have as part of our Music Box series on hbo. That's going to be Thursday night. I'm going to be back with this podcast on Thursday. Putting up late because I think this Lions Cowboys game is a big one. So House and I might do our football side before or after that Lions Cowboys game and then we have a big guest. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but it seems like John Cena is going to be on. So that's going to be Thursday's pod. I will see you then. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 Plus. I'm present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchatinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-32755 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.