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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Haliburton’s Brilliant Game 4, the Reeling Knicks, and OKC’s All Grown Up With Zach Lowe
01:36:45
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
It's the Bill Simmons podcast. We have a ton of basketball coming up next with Zach Lowe. We're going to talk about Knicks Pacers, game four. The Tyrese Halliburton is a superstar game, or at least a really good star. I wanted to use this opportunity at the top to talk to the Boston Red Sox owners. They won the title in 2018. They won the World Series, the fourth World Series of the century from my baseball team. And then two years later, they traded Mookie Betts in the most cowardly way. I don't remember if Covid had started yet, or it was about to start or whatever, but they all of a sudden, he's out. They got 5 cents on the dollar farm. Ironically, the last guy on the team available from that trade was Connor Wong, who was hitting.149 and came up with the bases loaded in the Memorial Day game. And if he made an out, they lost the game. And of course he made an out because he was 0 for 18 and runner scoring position. I've been watching a lot of Red Sox this year. I boycotted the team pretty much for the last couple years because I was so upset about the Mookie Betts trade. It was basically my version of Luca and Dallas and everything that happened there. It was such an indefensible, terrible trade. And then he goes to the Dodgers and he's awesome for them. And it really made me mad. And I just decided I just need to take a break from the Red Sox. And this year I got back into it because Christian Campbell came up, Marcelo Meyer was about to come up, and Roman Anthony, who's the best prospect in baseball, and this Red Sox team, which I think they're over under, and fandom is 86 and a half. My friend Kevin Hench went on Brian Barrett's off the pike podcast Monday and came in in the 17 minute mark, and it was right after he had another one run loss. And I think they've had 30. And Hench's response to the first question was almost 10 minutes long. It was one of the most incredible podcasting moments I've heard on the ringer. He's getting madder and madder as it's going, which is exactly how I felt, how everybody who likes the Red Sox feel this year. They have this situation where they won't call up Roman Anthony, the best prospect in baseball, and they weren't calling up Marcelo Meyer either. But then Alex Bregman, who is the best hitter on the team, he gets hurt. So they. They won't Call up Anthony because there's some weird service time thing where if he wins Rookie of the Year or finishes second, he gets to lose a year of his service time, which makes it, you know, a year closer to him getting a giant free agent deal. And all of this would be fine if we were the fucking Pittsburgh Pirates or if we were whatever the Athletics are called now. I think they're just called the Athletics or we were whatever other small market team. This team's in Boston. It's an absolute money machine. Who the fuck cares whether Roman Anthony is going to become a free agent year early? Meanwhile, he's had two homers just in the last three games. And the Worcester Baseball, their Twitter feed, they just shoot out these Roman Anthony homers where he's 115 miles an hour off the bat. So they lose another one run game today because they won't call him up. And they've thrown away this season. But I'm actually kind of attached to a lot of the guys in the team and I want to boycott them again. But now I really like watching Marcelo. Hopefully Campbell will get his act together. And I'm waiting for them to call Broman Anthony and they won't because they're trying to save money. What are you trying to save money for? What are you guys doing anyway? That's my Red Sox rant. I don't understand how we won four World Series and I'm the angriest. I've been at the owners since I was in college, but this is just unbelievably indefensible. This would be like the spurs not calling Wembanyama up from G League. Not that he's going to be the Wembanyama baseball, but you get my idea. When somebody's ready to be one of the best players in your team already gave, just bring them up. What's the point of professional sports anyway? It's driving me crazy. I just wanted to mention that. Okay, we are going to talk about a bunch of basketball with Zach Lowe in in one second. We're also presented by by FanDuel Sportsbook where I'm going to do my Taylor Fade bet on Wednesday. We're presented by the Ringer Podcast Network where you can find a new episode of the Rewatchables. We did Heavy Can Wade as the last movie from Big Ass seven Days a Month. And you can watch that podcast on the Rear Moves YouTube channel or you can watch it as a video podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel or as a video podcast. But we did it live with Zach Lowe right after Pacers, Knicks. You're about to listen to it. We're going to take a break, we're going to bring a Pearl Jam, and we're going to get going. Right now, you're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends, America's number one sportsbook. And they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus, I'm President select states GAM prom, call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com recording live. Zach Lowe is here. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. Just watch the Pacers go up three games to one. Zach Lowe. I cannot believe how good Hal Burton was in the game today. I can't believe how many missed opportunities the Knicks had. And it feels like they have missed their window. But we should start with the Pacers because that game had a ton of fouls, a ton of turnovers. It got really ugly. They went up 15 with like nine minutes left, which is usually when the Knicks get going. And then it felt like the Knicks were coming back. They could never pull it off. Do you believe in this Pacers team?
- [06:16]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. I mean, how could you not? I still want to live in the alternate universe where game one doesn't fall into like a wormhole that the Knicks just can blow in a catastrophic fashion. I'd like to see how it plays out, but how can you not? They, they play a style that just wears people down. They're very hard to play against. They know exactly who they are. And you know, I heard you and Ryan talking about the Pacers, their place in the east, and Ryan saying, you know, I'll always bet on a team with a top 10 player. And Indiana doesn't have a top 10 player. They might have a top 10 player. I mean, like Tyrese Haliburton is this good. I mean, this was, this was his masterpiece tonight. I mean, he's had other great games. Not with stakes like this. Not playing a style that the Knicks kind of. The Knicks kind of coaxed him to play the way they want him to play for a lot of this game, which is dribble a lot in the pick and roll, penetrate a lot. Essentially play like Chris Paul plays, but faster, you know, get guys on your hip, force you to dribble into the mid range. The stuff Halliburton, if he had his druthers, would not do, I'll bet you. I. I'm very interested to see if you track this game, if it's his season high for just dribbles past half court in a game and to put up what he put up tonight with no turnovers and a million assists and making shots of every variety. An absolute masterpiece. And just between Halliburton and the pace they played at in the first half where they just are flying after every make and you look at the. The first action on these possessions after makes is like 21 on the shot clock. There's a handoff for a screen or something. It's just really hard to play against Halburn.
- [07:57]
Bill Simmons
32, 12 and 15 with zero turnovers. And I'm with you. When Ryan and I talked about it on Sunday, I did not think he was a top 10 player. I think he needed to add a little to the resume. But this is the kind of game where he surged into the discussion. I texted Steve Nash during the game and I asked him, do you feel like this is like the illegitimate son of the 7 seconds or less sons? And he said absolutely. And it was. I don't know why, I never really thought about it. Maybe other people have made the comparison, but I don't really remember thinking that until I was watching tonight. Because when game three went off the rails for them, it was. Cause things slowed down and they turned into a normal basketball team, which is always when it goes bad for them. And you figured like the safest bet in this whole series has been the Pacers in the first quarter because they're just boom, boom, boom. They're going, going, going with pace. I don't even think it's seven seconds or less. It might be six seconds or less. It might even be the five and a half seconds or less Pacers because like what you said before, they're getting into. They're either getting two on ones, three on twos, or they're getting into what they want to get into. And there's still like 17, 16 seconds left in the shot clock. I didn't Think the Knicks could keep up with the pace. And in a weird way it reminded me of almost like you can. I'm a UFC guy. You're not. Or at least for the pay per views. Sometimes you watch a UFC fight and you're like ah, this is. They always talk about in boxing styles make fights and ufc the pace of something. What somebody's trying to do when they're. They keep trying to put the other person on their heels and have them going backwards and, and they kind of screw up their clock for the fight. It feels like that's what they've done to the Knicks in this series. They've sped them up to the point the Knicks stats like Brunson stats are fine, but he doesn't feel like he's in control like he did in the first two rounds. Right. They've done, they've tilted it a little bit and it's too chaotic for the Knicks and I don't think they can keep up with it.
- [09:54]
Zach Lowe
And that's why you have 10 guys play double digit minutes even in not a. It's not must win playoff game. But you don't want to go surrender home court and go back to New York 2, 2 facing that crowd because if you're going to play at that frenetic pace, you need a real deep team. And that's what the Pacers believe in. It's like Ben Mah, you've sucked the entire series. You're kind of like stick out on this team like a sore thumb in terms of the style that you play with. We're going to throw you in the game for 12 minutes because sometimes you stick out like a sore thumb and sometimes you're kind of a curveball that we might need. And he comes up with 20 points. Yeah, and yeah, I it just 20.
- [10:34]
Bill Simmons
Points that I'm not even positive I like how he played and I'm not even positive he had a good game because he was in the second half was like a chainsaw just kind of rattling around the backyard just cutting into stuff.
- [10:45]
Zach Lowe
And look, I mean like the Knicks were bad on defense in this game. We should not undersell that like the Pacers. I have praised the Pacers to, to every nth degree about how their style foists uncertainty and panic on defenses. Defenses make mistakes because just there's so much shit happening so fast. It's like that Halliburton 3 where Toppin just comes out of nowhere, kind of sprints in the direction of Halliburton to set a screen. Doesn't get within five feet of him, sprints toward the rim. Brunson is on, Halliburton is like, oh, my God, someone's sorting toward the rim. And just all of a sudden everyone walks away from Halliburton and. And he hits a three. But I thought the Knicks, like, I think Josh Hart got back cut five times in the game for baskets on out of bounds, plays the top and three. That was the dagger in the game is just a miscommunication. Two guys chase one guy. Their out of bounds defense was bad. Their back cuts were. They got back cut all over the place. Like, the Knicks will look at the film of this and be like, look, credit to the Pacers. They're an elite offensive team. We could have just snuffed out 14 points with just nice standard defense. And like you said, they, they had it to 6, 115, 109. The Pacers were becoming a little slow and predictable by their standards. And by the way, the score of the game was 111, 96 at one point. And an alarm went off in my brain that that was the same exact score it was in the fourth quarter of game one, except it was the Knicks ahead 111, 96. And then Anunoby hits a crazy three and I'm like, I don't know what's going on here, but if. But I'm getting a little. I'm getting a little frightened by what the basketball gods are doing to us. But in the end, the Pacers got enough, got enough done.
- [12:28]
Bill Simmons
I usually don't tweet during games, but I did tweet when it was. It was between 8 and 11 for. It felt like an hour. And I tweeted the Knicks just need to fall behind by 15 so they can get comfortable. And then it was 111, 96. Then it was. It was that. It was 113, 100. And it felt like the Pacers hadn't done anything for five minutes and they were just letting the Knicks hang around, hang around, hang around, which is what the Knicks love. But I do feel like a couple things have changed with the Knicks from where they were in the first two series. It feels like he gave up on McBride, which I don't really fully understand. Cause I actually like, especially in a chaotic game like the one today, I actually like McBride in those games. But down the stretch, he was playing right over McBride. Robinson just the first three quarters, I think he was minus 21, something like that. And that lineup wasn't working. They kind of changed. It's Hard for me to believe after like a couple games they're like up our five guys together doesn't work anymore. We got to bring hard off the bench. That felt really panicky to me. But I think it spoke to the fact that all through the playoffs this team over and over again has been down 10, 12, 14, 8, 15, 17. And at some point you are who you are. You know, we were talking math a bunch last year with the Celtics and like at some point we. When you go up 20 a bunch of times over the course of a season, you're probably good. OKC this year, a lot of blowouts, a lot of big leads, you're probably good. The Knicks feel like they're kind of punching above their weight. When you just look at how hard it is for them to stay competitive in these games.
- [14:02]
Zach Lowe
I think you just nailed it. Something that was bugging me. I talked about it with Rob yesterday.
- [14:11]
Bill Simmons
About the great Rob Mahoney of Prestige tv.
- [14:13]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, him. Yeah, he took a break from watching whatever. I don't know what. Yeah, I like that show. Great show. We talked about it in sort of just focusing on Towns and Cat as this enigma who carries the Knicks across the finish line in game three with a masterpiece fourth quarter where he's playing center the entire fourth quarter. Mitchell Robinson has benched the entire fourth quarter because the Knicks need points and they need to go five out on offense. And all of a sudden it just feels like the Knicks, much like the Timberwolves with Cat, kind of don't know who they are as a team anymore. Like, do we need to play big? Oh wait, that's not working so well. Why did we start playing big in the first place? Was it just because of Mitchell Robinson's insane offensive rebounding or are there other reasons? You know what, that's not working. Like we need Cat. We need Cat to beat Miles Turner off the dribble in a five out offense. And Cat was gritty and tough doing that again tonight. And it just then, then they play these lineups like, you know, Shamet and Wright are suddenly in their rotation. All of a sudden they're playing this lineup that has no Brunson, no McBride, no Bridges, obviously no campaign, like none of the, the point guards or in Bridges case, like, you know, sometimes if Brunson's on the bench, point forward ish player, when I don't know where Brooklyn McHale Bridges even is anymore. But when that player effect simile emerges, none of those guys are on the floor and it's like, boy, they just, I guess credit to Pacers like, they've, they've rocked the Knicks into the ropes and the Knicks are like, I'm not really sure what the best version of ourselves is. And a lot of that is just Towns is a strange player where offensively he's best as a five. Defensively, those lineups just don't hold up unless you have the perfect ecosystem around him. And then you put him at the 4 and sometimes like, well, where is he at the 4? Like, you know, it's Brunson, Mitchell, Robinson, pick and rolls. Towns is over there. So just, I think you nailed it by saying the Knicks suddenly feel a little uncertain about who they are and how they want to play.
- [16:11]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelobotro, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobulture.com courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michglobeltra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. I was going to do this in the second segment, but let's do it now. There's two separate Knicks conversations right now, and they're running parallel to each other. One is, this is an incredible missed opportunity for them if they can't get out of the series. When you think about just going back and beating Paul George in Philly, that falls apart.
- [17:18]
Zach Lowe
It didn't even. It didn't. You can't fall apart if it never was. It's like, it's like I read some of my Word.
- [17:24]
Bill Simmons
Can you?
- [17:25]
Zach Lowe
I read some headline last week about how the Sixers don't want to break up their duo, their star duo break up Paul George and Joel Embiid. I'm like duo. I'm almost as much of a duo with Paul George as Joel Embiid and Paul George's.
- [17:38]
Bill Simmons
Anyway, that's the Christmas game. The highlights from the Christmas game over and over again. Look at what we had that two hours, eight games. So Philly never happens. Let's go there. Philly just never happens. Butler blows up Miami Dame ruptures his Achilles, Boston chokes the first two games away and then Tatum gets hurt for a year in game four. And then Indy knocks out a 64 win team that had home court advantage throughout the playoffs. So you stack all this stuff together and it's like a, it's a borderline miracle if you're the Knicks. Like not only were you able to keep your five guys healthy finally for the playoffs, right? That was the big fear is like we're going to have towns in April and May or we're going to have in and Obi in April and May or say all the miles we're putting on Brunson and Bridges and hard are they. All of them are healthy. Perfect situation and they're down 3:1 to the Pacers. And by the way it's never going to get better for a situation than it is for them right now. I don't think, I think this is the moment. So that's, that's one conversation.
- [18:38]
Zach Lowe
Are we, are we like one of those situations going haywire in the east is not a thing that will also be haywire or, and or worse next season. The biggest competitive advantage in all of professional sports probably is being in the Eastern Conference in the NBA. Boston is gone for a year. Miami, we'll see. Maybe they get the ramp. Maybe they do something that makes them interesting. Whatever. Right? Milwaukee. Okay. I mean over Philly. I mean I'm at, I'm at all believe Joel embled plays 50 games again in a season when I see it with the Sixers. And so I don't like, I'm like it's it, it, it is a missed opportunity. It's especially a missed opportunity. You just cannot lose game one the way they did. It's like two losses. You have absolutely no, you have no margin of error left in the series. You have no margin for anything fluky happening. You have no margin for you know just anything going wrong in any game for three minutes and they, that game is going to come back and haunt them. So what's the sec? So I don't. I'm not as I'm not game once there's a. Yeah.
- [19:42]
Bill Simmons
This is one of my favorite basketball playoff theories and then one that I always think of as spurs sons 2008 when that Duncan made that crazy. What was it like a one legged three. It goes in a double overtime and the Suns lose. And it was like these teams are too close. They're not. They should have Won game one. They're not good enough to beat the spurs five times. You beat them four. Five.
- [20:06]
Zach Lowe
Seems unfortunate. The Five Timers club, the five time theory.
- [20:10]
Bill Simmons
Last year, didn't Jaylen Brown hit that three in the corner to send an ot? Wasn't that game one?
- [20:15]
Zach Lowe
It's game one of the conference finals in Boston.
- [20:17]
Bill Simmons
And then it's like, all right, Celtics win that. Pacers have to beat them now five out of seven times. That's not happening. So you have that piece with the Knicks. So you have this missed opportunity where next year. I think Indiana's going to be better next year. They have ways to improve their roster. Other guys are going to be a year older. They have no doubt they'll resign. Turner, I'm sure he'll get. Why won't.
- [20:38]
Zach Lowe
Why won't the Knicks be better?
- [20:41]
Bill Simmons
Well, health standpoint. Older. But this leads to the second, the second thing. I'm just wondering. Not doing the Windhorse. Fingers in the air.
- [20:52]
Zach Lowe
But by the way, don't throw anything at Windhorse ever again. Anybody.
- [20:55]
Bill Simmons
Okay?
- [20:55]
Zach Lowe
Don't put hands on Brian Windhorst. Let's not do it.
- [20:57]
Bill Simmons
Fine. He's a national treasure. Is Towns Brunson. Now a summer convo of can these two guys, can you actually win four straight rounds if these are your two guys? When you think about how that Detroit series went, how they fell behind by 14 plus in the first five Boston games and how Indiana has just flipped it and made it seem like it's just impossible for them to get stops if you're just running the ball and pushing the pace on them and both guys seem better when the other guy isn't in. Although there's also all these great stats when the two of them are out there together with the high screens that they can run. I just wonder like if you're the Knicks with how the league works these days where you just decide in a year you hate your team. Could this be an I hate my team situation? We gotta do something. Or is this a. Oh, we were right there. If we win game one, we go to the finals. Let's not get. Let's not panic. Let's just run it back.
- [21:50]
Zach Lowe
I talked about this with JJ on the New York New York pod today. No bed can be. Is. Is no bed can't be unmade in the NBA of 2025. But if you are, if you are in the Knicks front office and you are inclined to think perhaps pessimistically about the Brunson cat pairing winning four straight playoff rounds, which you damn well need to have it. If your team's this expensive and you're this all in on picks, you need to have a team you believe can win four straight playoff runs, especially when three of them are going to be in the Junior Varsity Conference. But if you're.
- [22:24]
Bill Simmons
Especially with OKC looming, next year is probably even better than they are this year and you weren't going to beat.
- [22:29]
Zach Lowe
Them this year, that's a whole separate conversation about what making the Finals from the east even represents anymore and what those finals are going to look like. But that's a whole separate thing. But if you are pessimistic, I mean, you made your bed like you. You have Jalen Brunson, you're obviously not moving Jalen Brunson. He's an icon. He saved the franchise. Everything starts with him. Carl Anthony Towns makes a gazillion dollars for several more seasons, is sneakily extension eligible this summer and will probably want a. Two, two. Two more years, essentially of maximum.
- [23:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I think I've talked that out of my mind.
- [23:02]
Zach Lowe
No, no, I don't think anyone realizes that he's. I'm 99% sure, if I'm reading everything correctly, he's extension eligible. And, you know, this was this fanciful. Well, they know they got. Everyone thinks they got Giannis or they got Cat to trade Cat for Giannis. And I was always like, what? Like, why is that interesting to me if I'm the Milwaukee Bucks? Like, what. What is high of just Kat now making $65 million in five years. That's awesome. We're going to win 32 games in the east and suck. I don't know how you unmake that bed. And I think you. But again, creative people find creative solutions. How would you unmake the bed? What are you doing? If you are dubious of this to me, I would lean more to. And I think they would lean more to. We use the remaining pick equity we have. We sign and trade Achua in a pick. We do something to get one more trustworthy guy. We have these young guys that, you know, Tibbs is going to have to trust, like Colec and Daddy A and guys like that in the regular season next year to like, one of those guys has to be able to play 10 minutes in a playoff game like this and go back at it, knowing again we have the biggest competitive advantage in sports. I don't know what the out is other than that. Where are you trading Towns?
- [24:16]
Bill Simmons
I, you know, as you know, I might have been on the trade machine looking around.
- [24:19]
Zach Lowe
I just, I Can't wait to hear. I'm. I'm sure there's like a. My big problem. Not problem but my big contract for your big contract that maybe there's a fit thing that is unlocked for both of us but I don't know who that is.
- [24:32]
Bill Simmons
Bridges is in his last year next year and has a big extension coming. Correct?
- [24:38]
Zach Lowe
He does. And you would suspect that, you know, with Brunson taking less and all of this machinations that you know that the parameters of that have probably been broached, I would imagine.
- [24:48]
Bill Simmons
I, I don't always. I some of the stuff Shams puts out there, I'm. I'm like okay, like, like the Yana stuff. He's open minded. Like it's like that's not really a report. The stuff he had today about the spurs are now looking aggressively at June. Trying to figure out if they can be good right away is stuff that you and I have both heard separately. Like this is a thing that's out there and people. I think if you're looking at who's going to be the most interesting team this summer, they're, they're. They might be number one. They have all these picks. They're. They realize, you know, much like our beloved 2012 OKC when they are trying to extend, they realize like the windows now, like we have Wembanyama, who knows if we're going to have him 7 foot 7 upright with the history of tall guys, who knows.
- [25:34]
Zach Lowe
Let's go there. They already told us this by trading three picks or two and a half picks for Darren Fox. They already told us what their mindset is going to be.
- [25:41]
Bill Simmons
I just wonder is there instead of Durant who was in the 2007 draft and has been around for a long, long time, does it make more sense to target somebody like Bridges and then if you're the Knicks, could you send Bridges for picks and send those picks with Towns for Giannis and basically turn Towns and Bridges into Giannis would be my question. I can't believe we're talking about this when this series isn't over. I was just thinking like if you're looking for ads without phases, like if Giannis is really out there and you're the Knicks, you have to kick the tires on it.
- [26:17]
Zach Lowe
I just don't think what you described, even with some of what is remaining of San Antonio's extra draft equity going to Milwaukee is like the spurs themselves could beat that offer without anything else and Houston could certainly beat it. Others can certainly beat it. I think Milwaukee part of Part of this is going to have to be finding a way to get some control of their own picks back. And so you're now groping in third and fourth teams, but it's, it's like you're going to have to triangulate it somehow. You mentioned Durant. Like, you know, there was some Knicks Durant noise in leading to the trade deadline. I don't quite know how that would work. I mean, I know what the common sense salary ingredients would be. I don't know if how appetizing that's going to be to either side. But you know, that's a direction too. But I mean, look again, creative minds make stuff happen.
- [27:09]
Bill Simmons
If we were the. By the way, Steam Ben Gu today giving his brother credit for creating VP of Common Sense. I almost tried to fight the tv. Just felt it was a personal attack.
- [27:22]
Zach Lowe
I did think to myself, I'm positive.
- [27:23]
Bill Simmons
I came up with that term. I wrote, I think I wrote an entire column about it for the ESPN the magazine once. Running joke for 20 years. I love Jeff Van Gundy, but he did not come up with that. Sorry Stan. But anyway, if they were, if the Knicks were hiring us as VP of Common Sense, I would say run it back. Game one was a fucking watershed, crazy event. You can't overreact. You guys are right there. The east is going to be worse. Keep it together. But it's just interesting that we're even talking about possible alternatives for them. But that's how, that's how traumatic this series has been. Like they had, The Pacers had 113 points with like nine minutes left in the game. Like at one point it seemed like they were going to put a 1:40 on them. And the irony of Tibbs coaching a team like that, which by the way, that's maybe the other way this goes is you think I don't know if this is the right coach for this team.
- [28:17]
Zach Lowe
So I hear the Tib stuff all the time. Yeah, talked about it with JJ today.
- [28:22]
Bill Simmons
Not JJ Redick, John Justremsky.
- [28:27]
Zach Lowe
And I get it. Like we've all talked about the minutes load in the regular season, which isn't just a minutes load. It's like a lack of cultivating guys that you might need when shit is going wrong in the playoffs. He has been somewhat justifiably labeled like a maybe a floor raiser who is not super creative adjusting in the playoffs. I think he, he is somewhat shed part of that label.
- [28:59]
Bill Simmons
In the last game three he was great.
- [29:01]
Zach Lowe
I thought that was one of the.
- [29:02]
Bill Simmons
Better coach games of the playoffs.
- [29:04]
Zach Lowe
The Boston series was going their way before Tatum's injury. They baited Boston. They completely scrapped their entire defense in the way they've played. Debate Boston into playing a style that, that favored them. And I just. So my question to the Tibbs critics. And I get it. I get the criticisms, I get the stodginess. I get, like, everyone wants their super creative offensive guru to come in and spice things up. Like, who's the guy? Because you have sucked for the better part of 20 to 25 years and you don't suck now. You're in the. There are four teams playing basketball in the NBA. The Knicks are one of them. They win a lot of games. Like, they have a good coaching staff around Tibbs. Like some creative thinkers on that staff, like, are so okay. It's very easy to be like, well, the coach stinks. He's not playing Delon. Right. He's not playing Landry Shane. But we're not running the, you know, we don't cut like the Cavs cut. And we're not flying around. Okay, like, who's the coach you want to bring? You want to take the leftovers from the Phoenix List of 9000 assistant coaches who have never had a head coaching job?
- [30:05]
Bill Simmons
I was excited for a second.
- [30:07]
Zach Lowe
I love my grab bag. Yeah, just a Phoenix grab bag. Like, take the whole fired Phoenix coaching staffs of the last five years and craft a coaching staff out of those guys. Like, who's your guy? Who do you want?
- [30:18]
Bill Simmons
I don't have an answer.
- [30:20]
Zach Lowe
Well, that's an important part of the question.
- [30:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I don't. I mean, I have Knicks friends who are like, Mike Malone won a title two years ago. He's available. Be huge for us. I'm not sure, not sure he's solving all your issues.
- [30:34]
Zach Lowe
Is he that different?
- [30:36]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. I would. We've never seen him coach without Jokic. I guess we had some brief Sacramento stuff that I barely remember.
- [30:44]
Zach Lowe
But he didn't deserve to be fired in Sacramento. It was a catastrophic mistake. Mike Mullen. Michael Malone is a good coach. I just like, is that changing the direction of your team?
- [30:54]
Bill Simmons
Do you want to do at some point, maybe over the summer, do top 30 favorite Sacramento mistakes of the, of the century and we just do a draft.
- [31:06]
Zach Lowe
How? I mean, first of all, the list, I think we'd have to go longer.
- [31:11]
Bill Simmons
Than 30 things where you, you, you text me at like 2:30 in the morning, your time and you're like, I've spent four days researching this. I can't Believe how big the Google Doc is. This is crazy. I can't narrow it down.
- [31:24]
Zach Lowe
Wasn't it Grantlin that did the video inside the draft room? When Stoutskis got drafted, everyone. What did they. What did they. They all called him on speakerphone and Vivek made them be like 1, 2, 3, yay, Nick. Or something like that. And you could see everyone being like, oh my God.
- [31:38]
Bill Simmons
Go Nick. Yeah, go.
- [31:40]
Zach Lowe
Oh God.
- [31:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I was surprised they let us even. Even run that. But wait, why did I bring up Sacramento? There was a good reason for it. Oh yeah. Mike Malone. Yeah. I. I would assume Tibbs comes back.
- [31:52]
Zach Lowe
It's.
- [31:52]
Bill Simmons
No. No shame in being one of the four coaches left in the playoffs.
- [31:56]
Zach Lowe
But.
- [31:59]
Bill Simmons
They need to figure out. My guess would be if they kept Tibs, maybe Mitchell Robinson becomes the fall guy. Because so many teams need a center and you talk yourself into. Towns is our center. We need to get like a Siakami type forward who can play defense. Obviously not Siakam because he's one of the best.
- [32:17]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, those are easy to find. Just get. Just get an all NBA level player.
- [32:20]
Bill Simmons
Sure. A 6 foot 9 guy who can shoot and guard and you know, Tyler.
- [32:24]
Zach Lowe
Maybe add up Colex salary plus, you know what, what, what can I get up to to get an all NBA power forward who can play defense?
- [32:31]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. I love chicken parmesan. A cabana, that's a no. But a banana, that's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry, nope. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine. No. A box of fine wines, yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hey Zach, we've worked with FanDuel on a new betting concept for the NBA playoffs. And it's called Taylor Fade, where I do a prop player prop. You're not a big gambling guy, but player prop. And I lay it out and people can either they can back me, which is called tail, or fade me, which is go against me. So I'm 2 and 2 so far in the playoffs. I lost last week on Town Towns. I'm going to pick a player prop for Thursday's game five Knicks Pacers. What's funny, I would have gone over on every Halliburton prop and I can't. We got to talk about Halliburton again in a second.
- [33:49]
Zach Lowe
We will.
- [33:50]
Bill Simmons
But if you've been wanting to fade my picks, I don't know why you'd want to do that. But if you do, FanDuel give you that opportunity by offering a 50% profit boost on either the over or the under on my pick. Check out FanDuel Sportsbook on Thursday to see what bet I'm boosting. Then you can choose to apply a 50% profit boost to my pick, reply the 50% to the other side, end with some smack talk. You could. You could fade me and just trash talk me on whatever social media forum you want to do. I'll be ready for it anyway. Check it out. FanDuel Sportsbook okay, let's move to the Knicks because we spent or the Pacers because we spent too much time talking about the Knicks. So I was looking at Nash's playoff stats from 0506 07, 46 games.
- [34:35]
Zach Lowe
On.
- [34:36]
Bill Simmons
The seven seconds or less Suns and he averaged 21 points, 11 assists, four rebounds and was a 50, 40, 90 guy for that entire stretch. Three years. Halberton, 29 games is basically very close to 20 and 10 now, five rebounds and not quite as good on the 50, 40, 90. But he's going to be 48, 38, 71 is also younger than when Nash was on the Suns. Right. He's, he's.
- [35:04]
Zach Lowe
Are we still in the Sacramento Kings mistakes segments or are we to talk about the Kings?
- [35:09]
Bill Simmons
We're going full halberd. We can circle back to the Kings. But, but the question, we talked about it on Sunday and then again, you know, after that game today, he's not one of the six best players in the league, right? That's Jokic, sga, Giannis and Luka. And I honestly would put Wemby in there for next year. I just think he's going to be one of the guys. And then there's this next group of, in no particular order, Curry, Mitchell, Halberton, Brunson and Kate Cunningham where we could argue about all those guys. And then there's an Anthony Davis, Townes, Mobley, Jalen Williams and that's probably the top 15. But Halberton was not swimming in that Kate Cunningham, Brunson, Mitchell, Curry pool, totally. Even though he made all NBA, but he made it because there were some issues.
- [35:56]
Zach Lowe
I mean he was, he was, he was swimming ahead of Cade Cunningham.
- [35:59]
Bill Simmons
He was popping out of the hot tub and then going and Going into the pool a little bit, but then coming back, I don't know, I just feel like. Like that overrated thing came out right. And that was stupid, but I do feel like that was the perception of some people. They didn't see him as good as how he actually was. And now that's over. Right. This, the overrated thing is done and he's in that group somewhere. So how high is he for you when you're comparing him to 37 year old Steph Mitchell who's in his prime. Cade, who's not in his prime yet. Brunson, who's absolutely in his prime. He's with those guys now indisputably.
- [36:36]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [36:37]
Bill Simmons
But out of all of those guys and Curry's the only one. But now Curry's 37. You can actually create an entire team built around his style of play. That where he might actually elevate everybody on his team.
- [36:49]
Zach Lowe
Not that he elevates everybody on his team. The Pacer has done a very good job of finding players who can play his style and are willing to play his style. But this is one of those magical basketball things where one player has imbued an entire team with his style. Everybody wants to move and pass and cut faster, harder, more often because the guy who is the fulcrum of everything wants. All he wants to do is get off the ball and run and fast break and. And like make you get a highlight. That's all he wants to do.
- [37:24]
Bill Simmons
Heads up. Always looking. Oh you. Oh you. Split out after that. Missed three. I'm going to find you every shot.
- [37:30]
Zach Lowe
Every shot. Every miss at the rim tonight was a fast break the other way. Didn't matter who missed at the rim, didn't matter if they fell out of bounds, didn't matter if the floor was unbalanced or not. Every single miss at the rim by the Knicks was a Pacers fast break the other way.
- [37:44]
Bill Simmons
I didn't vote for all NBA because I thought the first two months I thought he was a mess and he's talked about it since. That he was a mess and that he was actually going through some stuff and decided to stop reading social media and all these replies. There's been a couple good pieces about.
- [37:57]
Zach Lowe
That by the way. Step one to living a healthy life. Just don't read social media ever. For any person of any. Just any ilk. You don't even have to have any followers. Just don't be looking at YouTube shorts for two hours a day. It's that your brain is getting dumber.
- [38:12]
Bill Simmons
By the second we're live here on YouTube. Thanks for that PSA, Zach. But I.
- [38:28]
Zach Lowe
I'm concerned about my kid and her generation, that's all.
- [38:31]
Bill Simmons
Listen, I think about it constantly. I picked Indiana to beat Milwaukee.
- [38:38]
Zach Lowe
Me, too.
- [38:40]
Bill Simmons
I bet on them to beat Cleveland in six. I wasn't positive they were going to be Cleveland, but I thought it was a 50, 50 series, and I thought this was a 50, 50 series. But I actually have a bunch of Pacers money that I thought about hedging tonight and decided not to because I thought Halberton blew that game down the stretch, as many people have talked about, because he stopped being. You know, he's doing these crazy kickouts, and it's like, you can get to the rim on these guys. Just finish the play. You can contort your body, you're going to get layups, you're going to pick up fouls. Just keep, keep going. And he clearly thought the same thing because he came out today and was like, I am attacking. I am going, going, going. And when I get into the paint, I'm not just going to be looking at kick. I'm going to be trying to bounce off people, finish. He's one of those guys that I find myself when I watch. And Tatum was like this for a long time, too, until he got hurt, where you're just watching him go to the rim. Just go to the rim. Just go to the rim. Go. Go to the rim. Go. Don't settle. Go, go, go. This was the best blend of all his skills tonight. It was really like his magnum opus.
- [39:43]
Zach Lowe
And even when he's dribbling for most of a possession, like, they ran the same play seemingly 25 times in a game, including a bunch of times in the fourth quarter where I think the Knicks actually, they got too predictable and they had to snap out of it. But it was a staggered screen with Neesmith was the first screener, Turner was the second screener because NEESmith Turner has Cat. And, like, even when he dribbles that entire path, he takes both screens, he turns the corner, and he ends up shooting a floater, a layup, a setback, two. Yeah, there's not any, like, wasted time. Even though he's, quote, pounding the ball, he's not bringing it back out for the most part and just dancing with it. It's like forward to diagonal momentum the whole time. Now, there are a couple times he brought Mitchell Robertson out on the switch. He's like, I'm going to dance with you a little bit and make a three. But there's just no. And it's not better or worse like the Celtics won a championship with Tatum and Brown basically being like I'm going to, I'm going to bully you for 10 seconds to get to the rim. It's just better for the Pacers and better for Halliburton to play the way that he does and play at the speed that he does. I agree with you. I thought it was the best mix of, of of him ever. And by the way, the biggest shot of the game was when they snapped out of being predictable, ran a different play and it was a Halliburton Nemhardt pick and roll. Which is like okay, we're going to run that now because Brunson's on Nemhardt and Halliburton turned the corner. I actually Nemhardt slipped the screen and Siakam hit the corner three to put him up. 118. 109 is the biggest shot of the game. And it was an important moment because the Knicks have seen the same play eight or nine times in a row which is even if you're as dynamic as the Pacers, you get in a rhythm defending it. And the Pacers finally realized like we got to do something a little different. And then that was, that was not quite the game, but it was the biggest shot of the game.
- [41:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, what's interesting about where they are, it's hard to believe they're going to make the finals. But they've also, you know, they, they're beating a red hot Knicks team. They thumped Cleveland thumped. Can make some excuse for Garland wasn't healthy and Mobley missed the game. But I'm sorry, like everybody's hurt in the playoffs. They 41 soundly beat them and broke them by game 5 and did a really nice job against Milwaukee too. And I think Milwaukee was a team that was excited to play Cleveland. I think a lot of teams were exc to play Cleveland was one of the under underlying lessons of as we headed in there. But with Hal Burton I think it's just easy to build around him. And that was why I made the case that I think that's the team I would want to be if I was in the east. Because even I look at the pieces now. Look, Mather had 20 points. I didn't, I just, I'm not a fan. I don't love how he plays. I thought he was important for this game today just because he was like going 110 miles an hour and he helped with the pace. But I feel like that topping spot and the matheran spot are the two spots that you can upgrade. And I was looking at Nash's sons teams in 050607 and they're, they're different in a lot of respects. I do think Marion and Siakam have a lot of similarities as a sidekick, but they need like a Tim Thomas before he went to the Clippers and stop caring about basketball. Like a 6 foot 8 shooter who can kind of be malleable on defense and is just a little bigger than Matheran, I think would be the number one thing I would draft for them. Somebody who could come in and give them just like a long athletic lineup without a center basically.
- [43:16]
Zach Lowe
Well, the interesting conversation about the Pacers, and it's one they've had internally too since they got Siakam, was and it dovetails with Rosillo saying, you know what, like where, if you had to rank Halliburton and Siakam among the top 30 players in the league, where would they rank? And is that high enough for a big two kind of construction? It's the debate of like we still have chips to cash in. We have like we, we have still like we have control of most of our picks now. Do we need a third all star level talent in order to really, truly be a contender?
- [43:52]
Bill Simmons
And I thought obviously not. They're five wins away from the title.
- [43:56]
Zach Lowe
I, I, I think it's a conversation that they've had for two years and I think they've debated it internally. It's been debated externally. It didn't it like last year it was like, you know, once you get past Halliburton and siakam, they're like 7, 8, 9 or basically the same as 3, 4, 5. And is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? Do they need a little bit more of like an A level talent? And it's like maybe, maybe they're about to make the finals. Maybe this is some sort of magic elixir of a team and it works just fine.
- [44:28]
Bill Simmons
Well, the biggest thing that I think they solved other than getting Halburn right. Cause he, he just didn't seem like the same guy those first two months. But I felt like it's a little like what we were talking about with Towns and Brunson before. I didn't love the fit with Siakam with them a hundred percent because I thought, I don't, I didn't feel like he wanted to go as fast as they wanted to go. And it seems to me, granted, I'm not banging out 82 Pacer games. A year. But I do watch a lot of them, and I've always been afraid of them. It seems to me he's committed to the style now and that he's playing way more breakneck than I think he used to. I thought he was too deliberate with them last year.
- [45:05]
Zach Lowe
He's getting eight free points a game by just being faster than every other big man on the floor. And when they need him to be deliberate, he's picking his spots. It's like, all right, I have Mikhail Bridges on me on a switch. Like, I can bully this guy. I have Josh Hart. Like, I'm way taller than him. I have a guard. Like, I'll be deliberate now. And even me being deliberate is going to be within a couple dribbles getting to the shot that I want to take from the place. I want to take it. Can we do two more Pacers? I got two more Pacer stakes to get off.
- [45:32]
Bill Simmons
I have. I have a couple, too. So go. Let's hear it.
- [45:36]
Zach Lowe
I just. Very quickly, we're talking about Thibodeau. Rick Carlisle is going to elevate himself into some pretty, Pretty elite territory, historically with this run. And the biggest compliment I can give him is, you know, I. I rarely, if ever, get to the end of a Pacers game or a Pacer series and be like, man, that lever wasn't pulled. He should have done that. That lever. Like, I just. I get to the end, I'm like, I can't really think of anything else I would have done. Like, he's just got. He's just got his finger on every button. So that's my first. That's my first space pick. I don't. I. I don't know where he. He's pretty high. All time wins. He's got a championship. He only has one. But, like, he's going to be in some pretty lofty coach conversations.
- [46:19]
Bill Simmons
I heard. I can't remember who said this. Maybe it was Doc Rivers because he got interviewed for. There was some Rick Carlisle piece I read in, like, USA Today. I'm sorry, I can't remember the writer. And I think it was Doc Rivers who said, what's great about Rick is whatever roster he has, that's the team he's. He'll create around the roster that he has, which. That's like football. That's what I always loved about Belichick was like, he didn't have, like, a system. He was like, oh, we have these guys, so let's do this. And that was just how he figured out whatever they're doing on defense. You think like, how different that Dallas Luca Brunson all ISO team was compared to like, how. How this Indiana team plays, how that 03 Pistons played and then how that Dallas team played. And especially in 2011, he just has different styles, which I don't how many basketball coaches could just be like, all right, I guess we'll do this. I feel like Brad Stevens was kind of wired like that too. But there's not that, not that many who are like, I don't have a system. My system is who's my best player. I'm going to create something around them.
- [47:23]
Zach Lowe
And he loves Halliburton and he loved Halliburton from the second that they got him from a team that, by the way, had de' Aaron Fox and Tyrese Halliburton now has none of them. Give me what's your. What's your next Pacer stick?
- [47:35]
Bill Simmons
What would you do you remember your feelings on what they should have done? Because there was a. The Knicks were coming hard after Fox in February 22nd when they made that Sabonus trade. And they were also. Sacramento was also looking at Ben Simmons and there was a Halberton possibility there, but it felt like one of those guys was available. And I, I've always been like way, way pro. Hal Burton even dated back to the Dr. And I would, I would have kept Halberton, but I thought what they got in the trade was a good trade. It's like, all right, well, that's that they're more interesting now. They had. Maybe they had to do something. What would you have done?
- [48:11]
Zach Lowe
I was so. I think I was on television when J.J. redick labeled it franchise malpractice to trade Halliburton for Sabonis. And I thought that was a little harsh because Sabonis is a very good player. But I have been consistent from day one of that trade to when the Kings were the beam team and everything was going great to being like when everyone would say it's a win win trade. Wow, what a rare, rare thing. It's a win win trade. Like, it's, it's not going to be a win win trade. It's the Pacers won the trade. The fact that the Sacramento didn't, didn't like lose it so badly in the short term is cool. Like it's a win. It's not a win win trade. The Indiana won the trade.
- [48:48]
Bill Simmons
So it's a little like the Kawhi George Hill where it was like, short term, really good trade for Indiana and they had A nice conference finals over and over again.
- [48:57]
Zach Lowe
And it was clear right away, like long term, this is not going to be a win, win trade. This is going to be like, oh my go queiler and all sorts. By the way, the other Pacers thing is, I've always been. Look, I don't mean this facetiously or in a mean way. A very large part of Paul George's NBA legacy is going to be all the great teams that were created in his wake. All the like from the nuts. I mean, the Pacers thing is they trade Paul George to Oklahoma City for Oladipo and Sabonis and like this, that's their team. They built it. They. They built this team. If you like, if you follow all the paths from that trade and forget the fact that. Let me see if I do this right. Oklahoma City traded Serge Ibaka for Victor Oladipo and the pick that he came.
- [49:50]
Bill Simmons
But like floating around. This goes to the Richard Lewis trade exception in 07. All right.
- [49:55]
Zach Lowe
You went even further back.
- [49:56]
Bill Simmons
I'm just saying that turned into Kurt Thomas and two number ones which then turned into Serge Ibaka. Like this go. But think about that. Robert Farmer created the finals.
- [50:05]
Zach Lowe
If you, if you just follow the tentacles of what the Pacers got for Paul George.
- [50:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [50:11]
Zach Lowe
It just, it leads to this team. And then of course, Paul, the Paul George trade for the Thunder leads to their team that exists right now. You know, basically.
- [50:21]
Bill Simmons
Well, the other crazy piece of that is that O Depot was one of the 12 best players in the league for a year.
- [50:27]
Zach Lowe
Incredible year.
- [50:28]
Bill Simmons
And gets hurt. And usually when that happens, you don't bounce back from that as a franchise and you become a top five lottery team and you go through the whole cycle and they just didn't because they smartly. It was another one where they had the same version of Fox and Halberton with Sabonis and Turner, who. They could never figure out how to play those guys together and then kept. Turner traded Sabonis and the trade worked out for them. Yeah, the. It all starts with that freaking Richard Lewis. And when Presti did that, that was one of the first times I remember somebody specifically trading away an asset to get the trade exception. I don't think he invented it, but it was still pretty new. Right. 2007. There weren't a lot of people doing that.
- [51:11]
Zach Lowe
It's almost 20 years ago. And to your point about not a lot of people doing that, I mean, the price was so exorbitant in modern terms to look back at. They got what like it's it's like all the picks that Sarver threw out of the. Out out in the open to dump Steve Curtis.
- [51:25]
Bill Simmons
First trade he comes in and. And the lockout's coming and Sarver's like, we have. We can't have this payroll. You have to trade Kurt Thomas. And that ends up being the first trade I had for one of my indie takes. OKC is the best team in the league. Are we sure the west was better than the east this year?
- [51:51]
Zach Lowe
I mean, this year. No. I mean, this year was. Well, first of all, it depends how you're conceiving of the conference, right? Like 1 to 7. I think the west was in an unusual state of flux. Although I think the Nuggets come out of all of this looking like okay, yeah, maybe they're still a pretty goddamn tough out at the very least.
- [52:10]
Bill Simmons
Well, think about. Celtics won 60 games. The Knicks team was good enough to go up 3:1 on the Celtics even for Tatum got hurt. Indiana, do you like how many west teams do you really love looking back?
- [52:25]
Zach Lowe
How many east teams do you really hate looking back? The Chicago Bulls made the play in tournament.
- [52:30]
Bill Simmons
I'm just talking the top, like the best teams in each conference. And we thought, oh my God, the West is such a gauntlet. Look at the East. Who the. Can we even find three teams that could make the finals in the East? And then you look back and we basically had three, plus the Clippers in the West. I think.
- [52:48]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, Steph gets hurt. I think the warriors would have been heard from in that Minnesota series for sure.
- [52:54]
Bill Simmons
Or did. Is that what we wanted to happen? But they actually wouldn't have been heard from.
- [52:58]
Zach Lowe
I mean, I picked Minnesota to win the series regardless. But I think that's a competitive series and you can find a lot of people around the league who think the warriors would win it. Clippers, Nuggets, you know, look, the Clippers crap the bed in Game 7. They did what the Clippers do. But that was a heavyweight fight.
- [53:12]
Bill Simmons
And game one.
- [53:13]
Zach Lowe
Well, but. But it was a heavyweight fight for the most part. And the east is like Cleveland, Boston, New York, Indiana, and then pretty good foursome. Yeah, there are 15 teams in the conference.
- [53:26]
Bill Simmons
I'm just saying the. The top of each. I felt like going into the playoffs, I felt like the west was so much better. And now I don't. I don't know if. I don't know if I feel that way. All right. I was just test driving the take. You poured water on it. What was your next indie thing?
- [53:40]
Zach Lowe
That's It. I just, I. This is the like I mean 313 1. The odds are must be 80 to 90% that we're getting in Indiana, Oklahoma City Finals league office and the broadcast partners must be doing backflips over this.
- [53:56]
Bill Simmons
Wow conspiracy. Bill will be coming in later to talk about that. Would you go six seconds Less six seconds or less Pacers. Would you go seven? Would you go five and a half? What would be your number?
- [54:08]
Zach Lowe
I think we can do a better nickname. That leaves the Seconds or Less lineage with Phoenix. And there's got to be a pun. Their name is the Pacers. There's got to be a pun or a rhyme or something that if we put a full brain trust of people, if we got the common sense czar of sports, whoever that is, whoever created that term to weigh in could come up with something unique to the Pacers.
- [54:30]
Bill Simmons
I'll go into our live and see if the people. Oh, it's not clicking for me. Why isn't it clicking for me? I guess that's not going to work.
- [54:43]
Zach Lowe
I already besmirched YouTube shorts. I'm not even going to go into the chat and see.
- [54:47]
Bill Simmons
Maybe YouTube shut our thing down when you took the shot at them. Yeah, we do need some sort of. Some sort of thing. Here's the other Pacers thing we gotta talk about. We haven't done this on the pod yet and I can't believe it. You did it on your own pod. You omitted me. It hurt my feelings. I got over it. Neesmith Island. There were two people on it. Not kind of Neesmith family. I'll never understand why he didn't play over Romeo Lankford ever at any point in my life. It was weird when it was going on. I felt weird complaining about it because it was. Nismeth was such a seemingly obscure guy in that team. They never figured out how to use him. And when they put him in the Bragdon deal, I was totally fine with it because it just was clear Boston had just quit on him for. As an asset, for whatever reason. All the stuff he's doing. It's just so funny. We're sitting there with two. I don't wouldn't even say we have cottages on New Smith Island. Like they. They started out as like, just like. Like a. Like a shed, two sheds. And now we're. Now we have multi million dollar mansions on New Smith island and everyone wants to live there. And guess what? We've been here the whole time.
- [55:59]
Zach Lowe
Well, you. I've told the story about meeting him and his agent and all of that. But. Sorry, I just clicked on the box score and a video came up. Cause I want to see how many points Aaron Neith had tonight with a sprained ankle and looked awesome. Defending Brunson minus plus or minus one or two plays. Yeah, I mean, you know, he was.
- [56:21]
Bill Simmons
Plus 20 tonight in 32 minutes. And every time he came out of the game, the Knicks would immediately start looking better because the stuff he was doing on Brunson and they talked. They did a good job of talking about in the broadcast about how he fights over picks, how good he is at that. Like, what he specifically. Unique skills.
- [56:39]
Zach Lowe
I love Stan. He can't stop. It's the way he's more excited about Neesmith fighting over picks than like regular people are about. I'll just leave that there. He's very excited about it, but it's not.
- [56:50]
Bill Simmons
That's not the only thing he's doing, though, because this is why I love the Pacers matchup. They're. They're with Brunson 94ft. They're. They're scoring baskets and they're like, where's Brunson? Let's get in his jersey. And Nisma spend the biggest piece of that. He's playing 32 minutes, but he's like sprinting. He's like. He's like running a marathon during these games. And I think he's been just a revelation for them. He's. When I do the best contracts, I don't even know if I'll. Maybe I'll do a best contracts draft this summer. Him at 11 million has to be way up there.
- [57:22]
Zach Lowe
Hey, look, like Kevin Pritchard, Chad Buchanan, the entire front office, like, they've killed it. I mean, just like the moves on the fringes like Oladipo to Lavert. I believe they get the picks that become Nemhard and Shepard and including other stuff in the Levert trade. I mean, they've just nailed you. Like, this is.
- [57:43]
Bill Simmons
Howard's not even playing. And I. I still like him. I don't know if you want to join me. I still have. I have some property on Walker Island.
- [57:50]
Zach Lowe
I thought he would play in this series. Like, did you read. I want you to be honest. I've already copped this. Did you remember that Tony Bradley was on the Pacers before Rick Carlisle brought him into game two?
- [58:02]
Bill Simmons
Did I know he was in the league? Did you see they put up his career stats and they said. He said two season DNPs.
- [58:10]
Zach Lowe
Wow.
- [58:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I was amazed he made the second free throw, but, yeah, I mean, Carlisle is just throwing dudes out there and they all seem like they're ready to play. That Ben Shepard who's either 35 years old or 20, I don't know what his age is.
- [58:24]
Zach Lowe
It's the mustache. He's just. He's all in on the mustache.
- [58:27]
Bill Simmons
He. He can come in and seem confident. The Nemhard pick was great. That was 31. He's been really bad the last couple games too, and they survived it thought offensively, it seems like he's lost his confidence even when he's bad.
- [58:38]
Zach Lowe
Do you ever feel worried in any way that Andrew Nemhardt is on the floor, like, on like the Pacer's behalf? I just feel like he's doing something helpful all the time. And he turns into an incredible shooter in the playoffs, and he's not been an incredible shooter in the regular season. He's like the anti all the shooters that suddenly aren't shooters anymore in the playoffs. I don't want to name names.
- [58:58]
Bill Simmons
Well, the thing about him is he doesn't turn the ball over, which is wonderful. And neither does Halbert. And when you can play with pace like that and not turn the ball over, it's like an incredible achievement. And whoever has the turnovers on this team is always the other dudes on the team. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business, your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses, not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. So find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. All new McCrispy straw strips. New McCrispy strips are here. Chicken made for dipping. Tender, juicy white meat Chicken with a golden brown peppery breading. This sounds delicious. It's chicken. So good it deserves its own sauce. That's right, the Creamy Chili McCrispy Strip Dip. It's creamy, savory and sweet with a little heat. But strips work with any of their sauces. I'm actually still a big fan of the buffalo sauce look. New McCrispy strips and dip. Sounds fantastic. And it's only at McDonald's. This episode is brought to you by Dangerous Animals. From the producers of Long Legs comes a new species of serial killer. Tucker, a shark obsessed boat captain abducts young tourists to feed the ocean predators below. But when rebellious surfer Zephyr finds herself in Tucker's jaws, he may have bitten off more than he can swallow. Hassi Harrison, Josh Houston and Jai Courtney star in Dangerous Animals. Only in theaters June 6th. Get tickets now at DangerousAnimals movie. I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you my 15 player pyramid right now. I was thinking about Halliburton's place. I'm just gonna throw this at you. Okay, let's start with one Jokic. Still one. Sga.
- [61:31]
Zach Lowe
I saw a lot of. SGA is the best player in the league.
- [61:33]
Bill Simmons
He's knocking on the door. That and then we're going to talk about OKC in a second. SGA is definitely like, hey, guys, what's going on over here on the top spot of the pyramid?
- [61:43]
Zach Lowe
Hey, Jokic had some beers. He's not getting up to answer the door. No, door's locked.
- [61:47]
Bill Simmons
Him and his brothers, they're watching super bad. It's fine. Sga and Giannis, 2, 3. Ant and Luca, 4, 5. By the way, Tatum's not in the pyramid because he's not playing for a year.
- [61:59]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. You are very loyal to this format of just if you're out for the year, you're out of the rankings. I'm not ranking you, which I isn't. I like that.
- [62:07]
Bill Simmons
If you're not going to play next season, you can't be in there. I have Wemby 6th. Do you agree or disagree? Because I'm projecting where he's going next year and the fact that he fucking grew an inch. Are you following this? He's seven foot seven now.
- [62:20]
Zach Lowe
I'm only following it because I heard you talking about it and how seven.
- [62:24]
Bill Simmons
Allegedly.
- [62:24]
Zach Lowe
And how seven. Seven just sounds strange.
- [62:27]
Bill Simmons
Can we pay per view and give the proceeds to charity where they actually measure Wemby and we find out exactly how tall he is for 1999.
- [62:35]
Zach Lowe
Where did you have Ant? Where did you have ant? 4 feels really high. You had Ant over Luka?
- [62:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Can I find out if Luka's gonna be in shape next season?
- [62:46]
Zach Lowe
I like the skinny slash fat photos that go around of players in the off season when it's like, is it just the clothes they're wearing? Is it just the way they're standing? Like, why are we reading so much into this? Like you could make me look 20 pounds lighter or 20 pounds heavier very easily.
- [63:01]
Bill Simmons
Every photo can has like a 15 pound variance just depending on the photo. I have no idea if he's lost any weight or not apparent. Allegedly he cares a little bit more. So you'd have Luka over Ant in the Western finals two years in a row. I feel like it's notable.
- [63:18]
Zach Lowe
Luca made the finals in the Western finals in the, in the three year span he did.
- [63:22]
Bill Simmons
He got traded by the genius Nico Harrison, though it never got traded. I have Wimby 6, then I have Curry, Mitchell, Halbert and Brunson as my 7 through 10. And if Halbert makes the finals, I'm moving him over Mitchell. Sorry, Mitchell. Because. Sorry, I'm a recency bias guy. And if you make the finals as when you're clearly the best player in a team and you went go through three straight playoff rounds where you beat Giannis, you beat a 64 win Cavalier team and then you beat this loaded Knicks team, you have to be in the top 10. And then my, my bottom, my last level is Cade, number 11, Anthony Davis, Towns, Mobley and Jalen Williams, who officially won me over after last night. I think he has to be in the top 15. Anybody. Does anything make you go?
- [64:15]
Zach Lowe
Eh, no, it's. It's just interesting that obviously everyone is well aware that we have this generation of superstars that are aging and so they're aging out of discussions like this. Like LeBron. Although you have Curry in here too. You also just have like. And Durant. You didn't mention Durant. And I, and I don't. I can't quibble with it. Like if you, if you just told a random guy on the street, tyrese Halliburton's better than Kevin Durant. I think, I think that would get.
- [64:39]
Bill Simmons
His team in 35 and 47 last year or whatever. It was like, I'm sorry, I've got.
- [64:43]
Zach Lowe
Then you have other guys who like are just like, Joel Embiid's injured all the time. Jimmy Butler, Jimmy Butler's injured. Sl. Jimmy Butler focused, healthy Happy Jimmy Butler is probably in this conversation, but that guy doesn't exist very often.
- [65:01]
Bill Simmons
Minnesota series I think killed that. I think he can get there every once in a while, but I think. Don't you also believe that he just didn't seem impactful enough? Well, and I think when you're, when you get to 35 and up, I think asking somebody to be good for nine months is really, really a chore. We don't have a lot of history of it.
- [65:22]
Zach Lowe
He fell hard on his tailbone and I'm not sure he. And then like, like we all thought, we all thought not long ago that both Morant and Zion would like maybe be in this conversation. In Morant's case, like definitely be in this conversation. And they're just like not even snif right now. It's just, it's a strange, it's a strange, strange times.
- [65:45]
Bill Simmons
Well, so the biggest thing that's changed in the playoffs is Hal Burton ascending into that top 10.
- [65:52]
Zach Lowe
Kawhi is another one. Kawhi healthy Kawhi top 10 player.
- [65:56]
Bill Simmons
So I had my five clo. My, my five honorable mention guys, in no particular order. Tatum, LeBron, Kawhi, Chet and Durant I think is the next group right underneath. And then Booker you could talk me into, but I think he gets, he should get some of the same criticism. I have to ask you what east team you'd want to be the most the next five years? Because Rossella and I talked about that Sunday. Would you have said the cast.
- [66:23]
Zach Lowe
I'm stealing this idea and doing a full on draft on my podcast on Thursday 1 to 15.
- [66:28]
Bill Simmons
Stay tuned for that. Okay, let's talk about OKC really quick and what happened last night. So they win 128 to 126. Ant takes shit after the game, which I, I, I agreed with Versilos take on his podcast today that some of the stuff was unacceptable. Like being that visibly frustrated and disappearing from being mad about how you're being defended basically and, and checking out on certain plays at the same time. They scored 126 points and that wasn't why they lost the game. They scored 126 points. It wasn't because Ant didn't score enough. They couldn't get stops. And I think if I'm Minnesota, I'm upset that the best two guys in the other team are guys that play positions that I have awesome defenders at. And they still lit me up for almost 80 points combined. And if I'm okay, see, I'm just like we fucking. This is it. We climbed Mount Everest with this team. What Jalen Williams did in that game combined with what Shea, what he always does, but especially at that low, he was just magnificent in that game. But then to get that from Jalen.
- [67:36]
Zach Lowe
Williams, who I was combined with Game 7 of the Nuggets series, too, right.
- [67:41]
Bill Simmons
But I wasn't sure. I. I wasn't sure Jalen Williams had it in, in him yet. A game like that. I didn't know if we were a year away. And I kept thinking of the Pippin parallel with him with pippin in the 90 playoffs, which ended with the migraine, which, you know, whatever. But even before that, he wasn't quite ready. And then in 91, he was ready. And I felt after that game, Jalen Williams has arrived as the number two. This is it. This is his official hello, everybody. I'm here. And that's the legacy of that game. Those two guys together, the rest of the league had to be like, oh, fuck, now what do we do?
- [68:18]
Zach Lowe
And Chet feels like he's just scratching the surface of what he can do offensively and is already one of the 10 best defensive players in the league and one of the three best rim protectors in the league.
- [68:30]
Bill Simmons
That block, that recovery block he had in the fourth quarter was outrageous. That was outrageous at the rim.
- [68:37]
Zach Lowe
He's just. You can't score on him at the rim. And J Dub Mahoney nailed this today, and he and I talked about it on the pod. He wrote, wrote for the ringer today. Like, the entire defensive scheme that they've played in this series and in other matchups hinges on Jalen Williams being able to guard guys who are bigger and stronger than he is. Without that, without his ability to contain, shut down, limit Julius Randle in this series. If he can't do that, you've got to move Chet somewhere else. Chet can't just be on Jada McDaniels roaming around protecting the rim. The whole concept falls away. Not the whole concept, because you can then put Caruso on him, but then you've got to play Caruso more like a lot of how they are constructed on defense falls apart without him and his ability to guard up a position. Yeah, they are. Look, I mean, it's no secret when they, when they have an above average offensive game, it tends to look quite scary for the president, future of the league, because the defense is going to be there pretty much every night.
- [69:39]
Bill Simmons
And they got the 21 turnovers, which it seems like in every game when they try, they're Going to be around 20 turnovers for the other team. Offensively, Minnesota, all these dudes just playing out of their ass and then being able to match it wasn't positive. They had it in them.
- [69:59]
Zach Lowe
Well, in all those, like DiVincenzo and Alexander Walker going crazy from three. Like, a lot of that stems from the attention that Ant is drawing. Not all of it. Like, it's not. It's not all assists and hockey assists, but a lot of it. If you sort of dial it back and look at where it all originates from, a lot of it is just there's like four dudes on Ant or looking at Ant or the Curry gravity thing.
- [70:20]
Bill Simmons
Like, he's definitely. They're treating him like that this series and his teammates made a bunch of shots. I. I don't know. I wasn't monitoring how much shit he took today. Just people in my life were like, what's up with Dan? I was like, I don't know. Like, he definitely disappeared for some spots. I didn't love his body language, but I also thought they scored 126 points. And a big reason of it was he was pulling okc's defense toward him all the time and it was opening all this stuff up for everybody else. He's also 23 years old. This was Tatum in 2022. There's a whole other level when you keep going up arounds. He's still like a young pup. When SGA was three years ago, they weren't even a playoff team. You know, he's like, I don't think it's fair to compare him to SGA because I think SGA is just has more experience and he's just been doing this longer, you know, But I think that's how great Ant is, that you can even compare him, that. It's not like I'm making excuses for him, but I just think he's a young player. And I'm feel like. I don't feel like we're getting to where it's going to get to with him because three years from now or even two years from now, he's going to realize like, I'm just going to make all the right plays on offense and then on defense, I'm going to fucking terrorize them and I'm going to grab. I'm going to grab 13 rebounds and I'm going to shut down Jalen Williams or whoever I'm guarding and that's how I'm going to affect the game. He can't figure out how to affect the game if he doesn't have the offense yet, but I believe in them.
- [71:45]
Zach Lowe
And a lot of the conversation about Ant and like, well you know, you just, when you're the best guy you just got to put your team on your back and get buckets. Analysis is just based on stuff that Michael Jordan did when the rules were completely different and you couldn't play zone defense, you couldn't tilt the floor the way defenses do now. It's really hard to just get to the rim anytime you want. I think the difference, and there was some of, some of this today I saw. I think the interesting difference between Shay and Ant is how Ant's shot selection has trended in a dangerously hardening direction where it's just all rim, all threes. I'm not shooting any long twos, I'm not confident in the shot. I don't have the post game that I wanted to have yet. And Shea is obviously an elite mid range shooter but like all else fails, he could just go one on one and jack a 17 footer and like Ant doesn't want that shot anymore. It's partly because if you look at his numbers, he does not shoot them well. And in the playoffs we've seen it. I'm not comparing him to Harden. No one is going to have Harden's record in big games and Ant certainly is not. But there is a certain of like if it's just all rim all three and you're the number one guy on a team, it's going to be really hard for you in some games.
- [72:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, well Tatum, Tatum was another one who battled that. Tatum had this nice little mid range game, nice little foul line jumper, nice little post up game and when things would go bad he would just abandon it and it was either 25 footers or him going to the rim with no in between. And not my favorite kind of basketball but I just feel like Ant, his superpower is going to be how can he affect the game when they're doing what he did yesterday and he doesn't know how to put the pieces together yet. I don't think SGA could have played the game that he played yesterday two years ago. The sense of play to play moment to moment and especially like after Minnesota would hit yet another big shot, another three from the corner and he was just so calm. The way he does it, that whole team is like fucking Michael Myers team. They're just like walking across the street with the knife like Dan, like hey, nobody. They have no emotion at all, they have no personality. They're just like these Quiet assassins that come after you. Well.
- [73:54]
Zach Lowe
And you think about all the teams Ant has faced in the playoffs at. What did you say? He's 23. He's. Whatever he is, he's very young. He's already faced the Nicole Jokic Nuggets twice. He's faced the Luca Mavericks, he's faced the Curry Warriors. He's facing this Thunder team. Like he's getting a lot of Lakers, getting a lot of like big time experience against elite, elite, elite A plus teams under his belt. And that's like pretty goddamn hard to like win the. For him, for his team to have won as many of those series as they have, I think is like way ahead of schedule for most. I couldn't agree more.
- [74:29]
Bill Simmons
And the reason I hated the. I hated the Gobert trade, I hated a bunch of things about it, but the biggest reason I hated it was because the trade was made. Like you were on some schedule with Ant. Like he was 25 when he was like 20 when they made the trade.
- [74:46]
Zach Lowe
It's like it was a bet on him. It was a bet on him as much as it was on Gobert.
- [74:51]
Bill Simmons
And they were right. He was actually ready to become the top seven or eight guy at a really precursor stage. But now, now we're at this other level where now you're being treated differently game to game. I'm looking at how many playoff games he's played already. Yeah, 30 playoff games the last two years, 41 total. And he is turns 24 in August. We're doing fine with Ant. Yeah, I can't accept any. This whole basketball talk culture we have now where it's like so and so's got to step up. I asked so and so to step up and he stepped up. Now this guy needs to step up. Well, he didn't step up yet. He's got to step up Basketball. You go up and down, you're going to have good games of bad games. I think Ant learned from the game yesterday. I'm hoping just like Halliburton learned from game three, he learned from game three and was awesome in game four.
- [75:45]
Zach Lowe
Is anyone in Minnesota. Is this. Is anyone in Minnesota, in Minnesota echoing any of this anxiety about Anthony Edwards? Like another that's had nothing good happen to them for 20 years, has been in the conference finals twice in a row. Like that seems pretty awesome. Seems like it's going great.
- [76:01]
Bill Simmons
Your Final four team two years in a row. You do have this NAS read thing though.
- [76:06]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, they got some questions, you know, everyone's got some questions.
- [76:08]
Bill Simmons
Well, there's also some questions with what's the spending going to be?
- [76:12]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, that's what I mean. Everyone's got in the apron era. Everyone's got. Everyone's going to face these questions.
- [76:17]
Bill Simmons
Did you see there's this thing somebody forwarded me today and I couldn't believe it. And apparently it's true. There was a tax thing about everybody who's paid the tax.
- [76:32]
Zach Lowe
I saw a graphic floating around.
- [76:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, there's been some good graphics lately. This one was all the teams that have paid the tax. It was on a Twitter account called NBA University that thinks really good shout out to those guys. NBA lowercase underline thingy.
- [76:46]
Zach Lowe
University. I think it's called an underscore.
- [76:49]
Bill Simmons
Underscore. That's also what the kids call it. Golden State has paid $746 million in luxury tax since 2012, which is 340 million more than our next team, the Los Angeles Clippers. But what surprised me is OKC has paid the tax five times since 2012. And I was like that doesn't seem that has to be a mistake. And I looked it up and after Durant left they paid the tax big time in the 18 and 19 seasons when with post Westbrook when the Paul George came in. So they did spend cause I was thinking big picture because I we agree they're going to win the title, right. Barring an injury, I can't see anybody touching this team. Yeah.
- [77:33]
Zach Lowe
As soon as, as soon as the Celtics went away they were the odds on favorite to to win the title.
- [77:39]
Bill Simmons
And they and they took a wooden stake and rammed it into Yokich's heart. After after two weeks they finally were able to get it in there. But then you the next topic is going to be what does this team look like going forward. And it's one of the questions will be well are they going to pay the tax? They do have a history of paying it sometimes. So I still think this team the fact that Jalen Williams and Chet are in the same draft class, that's a yikes. That's a tough beat.
- [78:06]
Zach Lowe
I think they're going to pay the tax. I I think there will be, you know you get once you get into apron stuff like every team there will be cautious. But I like they're going to have to make decisions like every team is going to have to make these decisions. Is there a Dort have to go out here and Hartenstein doesn't, you know the team in three years. It's like whatever like Dort says suspect they're going to have to pay the tax. That's. They're going to pay the tax. They're not going to duck the tag. You can't be that team that good in duck the tax. You can't do it.
- [78:34]
Bill Simmons
Well, they did it, which is why I'm bringing it up. They did it in 2012 when they had James Harden and Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka on the same team. So same owners were learned.
- [78:44]
Zach Lowe
Lessons were learned.
- [78:45]
Bill Simmons
Maybe lessons were learned. I would assume Dort would be the one trade piece that I think they could actually get stuff for. And then your guy is coming topic. Yeah.
- [78:56]
Zach Lowe
So I tweeted that the other day and it wasn't. Everyone was like, well, they also have seven first round picks in the next whatever years. I'm like, I know, I know all the picks they have. The picks are in my brain all the time. It's the actual human that they drafted in the lottery last year that I sometimes forget is just like floating around.
- [79:10]
Bill Simmons
You know, who everybody said would have been top five if he hadn't gotten hurt and now he's fine. Well, anyway, that okc, I thought that was. It was weird seeing some people didn't love that game, thought it was a weird game. Especially people in my life are like, yes. I don't know about that game. I was like, that game was incredible. What are you guys talking about?
- [79:30]
Zach Lowe
The free throws is what just is what soured people. And I don't want to do the whole like, what would you change the rule to fouling up 3? Etc.
- [79:37]
Bill Simmons
Oh, the stuff in the last minute.
- [79:39]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was a fun. It was a really fun game. You know, the whole game was really fun.
- [79:46]
Bill Simmons
So what would you do?
- [79:47]
Zach Lowe
I don't want to have that. I'm too tired to have that discussion now. 12, 1206.
- [79:52]
Bill Simmons
Is it 1206. Oh, we're losing. Zach Low. Go to the bullpen. I. I just don't think. I think they could just tweak it really easy in the last minute where if you foul somebody that, that isn't in any like, it's just what do they do in FIFA? It's like a free throw and you keep the ball. That's it. Basketball becomes immediately more fun. Feeba. Did I say FIFA? FIFA, soccer, FIBA. Yeah, it's 9:07 here. I'm exhausted. Well, what.
- [80:20]
Zach Lowe
But like, you know what I have, I have a lot of counter arguments. It often doesn't work. Is one of the fun things about the fouling up three thing is it often comes Back to bite you in the ass. Which is a fun turnabout.
- [80:31]
Bill Simmons
Well, it opens the door that you could actually just lose the game that you had a three point lead in. Right. All of a sudden it could be like basically what happened to the Knicks in that Indiana game. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston, Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. Go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or lobster roll or clam chowder. Really. If it has shells, gills and is indigenous to the Atlantic, it's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean crazy down there. And guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo. This episode is brought to you by yeti. Summer is basically here, and if you're getting outside, you need to check out YETI Hard coolers. They're built like tanks. Super durable. They hold ice for days. Like they're Tundra 65. Iconic for a reason. Just an absolute beast for tailgates or tournaments. The Roadie 32 wheeled cooler. That one's awesome. You can pack it with a ton. Just roll it along. And if you want something super portable, the Roadie 15 is perfect. It even fits wine bottles. Find your cooler and gear up for summer with YETI Hard Cooler. How'd you feel about Ben Stiller and Chalamet sitting next to each other in Indiana?
- [82:08]
Zach Lowe
I love that they're going to the road games. I mean, they were in Detroit in the first round. I love it. If I had infinite wealth and access to private transportation and I had spare time, it's exactly what I would do as an NBA fan.
- [82:20]
Bill Simmons
Well, now that once we sell our places on Nismith island, Maybe we buy MJ's jet. You see MJ's Air Jordan jet. It's really nice. Maybe that's what we spend our Nismeth island profits on. We need a new guy. Who's our new guy?
- [82:35]
Zach Lowe
New island.
- [82:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I feel like we took Nisment to completion. So now what do we do?
- [82:39]
Zach Lowe
I've been. I've been. I bought a lot in the Strother Straits a couple years ago that I've just been sitting on. He could be one who did I think about that?
- [82:52]
Bill Simmons
Next time we do a pod, I think we should each have three guys that become our next island. Guys.
- [82:58]
Zach Lowe
I mean, the Kaminga Keys. There's a. There's a lot of people there. There's, like, a good nightlife.
- [83:03]
Bill Simmons
I do not have property on. On the Kaminga.
- [83:06]
Zach Lowe
We don't want everybody there.
- [83:07]
Bill Simmons
No, there's a couple Detroit guys I've had my eye on there. I still own. I. I still own some property on J.T. thor Island. I don't know if I told you about that one. That's.
- [83:20]
Zach Lowe
That's a.
- [83:21]
Bill Simmons
It was a penny stock.
- [83:23]
Zach Lowe
You're holding. You're holding that one.
- [83:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I'll tell you, that's.
- [83:27]
Zach Lowe
That's a good. The good, good properties. I like that.
- [83:30]
Bill Simmons
Bailey Shireman.
- [83:34]
Zach Lowe
I love that. I love that. At the end of this podcast, Shireman is coming up.
- [83:37]
Bill Simmons
Oh, we're gonna need him next year.
- [83:38]
Zach Lowe
We're gonna need a lot of people next year.
- [83:40]
Bill Simmons
Do you see Shams talked about the Tatum, how the surgery got big. I'd heard the same thing. I'm just getting hopeful about the Jason Tatum surgery.
- [83:48]
Zach Lowe
We're like, one report away from, like, maybe Christmas, you know, Like, I just.
- [83:52]
Bill Simmons
Maybe. Why not technology. I was talking to my dad today, and we were just both like, he's just. He doesn't know what to do with himself because he had this whole run mapped out for Celtics playoff games. So they're like, yeah, gonna go to the Cape this weekend. It's just. Just. He just can't believe we went from. Oh, yeah, this is gonna be great. Celtic City's out. Make this. And then it's just over. And now we don't have our best player. And he's just, like, still shell shocked, which I think most Celtic fans are.
- [84:25]
Zach Lowe
It reminds me of talking to team executives and coaches who have been on, like, a perennial playoff team, and then one year, catastrophe strikes, and they're in the lottery and they're like, is this what it's like when you're like, I have, like, our season just over. I have. It's April, and what am I supposed to do for the next two months? Like, I have my entire Memorial Day.
- [84:45]
Bill Simmons
To just do things.
- [84:47]
Zach Lowe
Draft workout. Is it was this college for the Hornets? Every year, my colleagues with the Hornets just are kicking around Charlotte for two months trying to find out stuff to do, doing projects.
- [84:57]
Bill Simmons
All right, we should go. I do like, when you're groggy, though. I feel like I can get more Stuff.
- [85:01]
Zach Lowe
Anything can happen. Anything can happen.
- [85:03]
Bill Simmons
What TV shows are you watching?
- [85:05]
Zach Lowe
Friends and Neighbors. A plus. A plus. Spouse neutral.
- [85:09]
Bill Simmons
I finished it. I went on the Apple Screener app and watched the last one. I won't tell you what happens.
- [85:14]
Zach Lowe
Oh, boy. There's only one more.
- [85:16]
Bill Simmons
There's only one more episode season.
- [85:19]
Zach Lowe
I'm up to date on what's published. Studio.
- [85:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, finish that again.
- [85:27]
Zach Lowe
The vent. The Venn diagram of overlap between my wife and I is. Is very narrow. Like, it's no violence. Like, it's like I would do all kinds of violence. I'd do that on my own. Like, Breaking Bad was a solo venture for me.
- [85:39]
Bill Simmons
That's like you. She has to go to bed and then you do. Break Bad.
- [85:42]
Zach Lowe
The Wire was a solo pre Kid venture for me.
- [85:46]
Bill Simmons
Hack.
- [85:48]
Zach Lowe
I'm a little lukewarm on the fourth season of Hacks. I loved seasons one through three. I don't quite know what's going on in this season, but it's earned the benefit of the doubt for me. I think that's a lot.
- [85:57]
Bill Simmons
People have been asking when your first Rewatchables appearance is going to be because.
- [86:01]
Zach Lowe
Some people are saying it's on the streets. Just keep me posted. If I've seen the movie, I'm happy to do it. I can't believe you're not doing a whole Mission Impossible retrospective. I'm a huge MI fan. I love all the Mission Impossible. Love them. Love them.
- [86:15]
Bill Simmons
What was your number one? We did the Tom Cruise draft and it seems like. What was the one? Fallout. No.
- [86:24]
Zach Lowe
So after three, which is Philip Seymour Hoffman is the best Mission Impossible villain universally agreed upon. And apparently I haven't seen the new one yet. Apparently is referenced. The plot of that is a major plot point of Dead Reckoning 2, or whatever this one is called. After that, they all kind of blend into me until. Dead Reckoning one. So like Fallout, Rogue Nation. They all like to. He's sliding down one building and jumping on another. They all kind of blend into me.
- [86:52]
Bill Simmons
Do you agree with my theory that he's been. He's been trying to die during a stunt for like 12 years.
- [86:58]
Zach Lowe
I would believe anything about Tom Cruise. I would believe literally anything.
- [87:01]
Bill Simmons
Latest one with the plane. It's like you're. You just have a death wish at this point. This is clearly how you want to go out.
- [87:09]
Zach Lowe
He takes it very seriously. I applaud the seriousness with which he takes his craft. I also like that he just knows he's like one of these concert tour bands who takes it very seriously. He wants to play some songs that they love. He's like, I got to also play the hits. I got to also run. I got to have a long shot of me running a long distance. And just like, I gotta do it. That's all.
- [87:32]
Bill Simmons
It's like me in the podcast. I know I have to bring up the Celtics at some point. Even if nobody wants it, it's just gotta play this. It's my version of Cruz running.
- [87:38]
Zach Lowe
I'm ready. I'm ready to be called in to the rewatchables.
- [87:41]
Bill Simmons
All right. I'm gonna have to get a movie.
- [87:43]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I'm ready to. I'm ready to be. I, I, I love the rewatchables. When it's a movie I've seen recently, I dive in.
- [87:51]
Bill Simmons
Well, we might have plenty of time for it because we might have both series ending in five games. Although both of us feel a little bullish on maybe the Knicks at least sending.
- [88:00]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I was going to say, what would you, what would you peg the chances of a game seven in the, in the New York Indiana series happening?
- [88:06]
Bill Simmons
Wouldn't rule it out.
- [88:08]
Zach Lowe
I definitely wouldn't rule it out.
- [88:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I guess we, you know, the whole pod, we were talking about the Knicks, like, what do they do? They're going to blow it up. Because it did feel to beat this team five times out of seven, like we discussed earlier, seems improbable, but who knows? Now it's swung to the point where, you know, you win five, and then it turns into the Kevin Malara, don't let us get six.
- [88:29]
Zach Lowe
It's the difference between having home court being down three one and not having home court being done three. I'm going to say, like 30 to 35% chance there's a game seven.
- [88:39]
Bill Simmons
Really?
- [88:40]
Zach Lowe
They should be favored at home. They should be favored at home in game five. Right.
- [88:43]
Bill Simmons
Like, I'm going to give you all the. Are they favorites right now? They are.
- [88:51]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to say minus one and a half.
- [88:53]
Bill Simmons
I don't know nothing about minus five. That's too Game five.
- [88:57]
Zach Lowe
That's too many points, a little high.
- [88:59]
Bill Simmons
And then for the series, and then.
- [89:01]
Zach Lowe
You just got to hope that game six, you win game five. You got to hope game six, the nerves like, oh, my God, we're on the verge of the finals. If we lose this game, we got to go on the road. You just got to hope, that's all.
- [89:10]
Bill Simmons
Indy is minus 600 to win this series. If you wanted to bet that this series will go seven games, that is plus 235 on FanDuel okay, I don't bet. So what would you do for a prop for game five if you had to pick one next thing that you think is going to happen in game five, what would it be like?
- [89:29]
Zach Lowe
Do I have to pick a number?
- [89:30]
Bill Simmons
Like if you just like pick a player that you think is just going to be awesome in game five on either team.
- [89:36]
Zach Lowe
All right. So it doesn't just have to be Knicks.
- [89:38]
Bill Simmons
No. I am expecting a big game from Blank.
- [89:45]
Zach Lowe
I don't want to go like Brunson or Halliburton. I think Miles Turner has in whatever game the Pacers win to get to the finals if they do. I think Miles Turner has a crowning Indiana Pacers moment. Like he makes six threes and scores 29 points.
- [90:03]
Bill Simmons
I like that pick and I also think he's been the most under discussed player in the league the last 10 years who is only discussed in trade.
- [90:11]
Zach Lowe
Rumors and in no other capacity as a basketball player. He is not discussed.
- [90:15]
Bill Simmons
He's not. He's played. How many career games has he played? 642 career career games, spending 56 playoff games. He's been in two straight conference finals in the last two years. He is 17 and 6. 51%, 43% from three. It's like the kind of big man everyone's looking for. And he's just like, ah, I wonder if they'll trade him.
- [90:41]
Zach Lowe
That's been his almost. Have they almost. It almost happened.
- [90:44]
Bill Simmons
What was the, what was the closest Miles Turner trade you can remember?
- [90:47]
Zach Lowe
Off the top of my head there was a whole Gordon Hayward. There was a Gordon Hayward Celtics like Gordon here, we're going to Indiana, Turner going to Boston thing. That was pretty close.
- [90:59]
Bill Simmons
I thought there was a Turner healed with the two firsts in the Westbrook contract for the Lakers. At some point I thought and they didn't want to give up the second first.
- [91:09]
Zach Lowe
Pelicans looked at Big Glen.
- [91:10]
Bill Simmons
Remember that one?
- [91:11]
Zach Lowe
Pelicans looked at him for a high draft pick. I don't remember what year and I don't know how close it got.
- [91:17]
Bill Simmons
The Pelicans are my. I forgot to tell you this. The Pelicans are my basalt team this year for this, for the, for the off season. I'm ready for literally anything with them. I think.
- [91:30]
Zach Lowe
Tyson zone. That's now bat salt.
- [91:32]
Bill Simmons
They're the bat. They're the bat salts team. Are they gonna trade up to the top three? Are they going to trade Zion? Are they actually going to try to build and feel like they can contend right. I'm ready for literally anything you name.
- [91:44]
Zach Lowe
You have to be with that roster. You have to be ready for anything.
- [91:47]
Bill Simmons
How many like is there a Trey Murphy trade?
- [91:51]
Zach Lowe
I would.
- [91:52]
Bill Simmons
Do they try to do their version of a Derek White, Mikhail Bridges trade with him? Do they try to move up? Could there be a Spurs Pelicans move? Spurs go from two to seven, get Trey Murphy. I'm ready for anything. Could there be a three way where Jalen Brown goes to the Pelicans and Trey Murphy goes to Boston and they. They swap or Jalen Burt Brown goes to the Spurs? I love Jalen Murphy goes to the ball.
- [92:17]
Zach Lowe
All of a sudden we've really.
- [92:20]
Bill Simmons
I'm just ready for the Pelicans. All bets are off.
- [92:24]
Zach Lowe
Wow.
- [92:25]
Bill Simmons
Keep your seatbelts on.
- [92:26]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I agree. I don't know if Jalen Brown's going to be involved, but I'm ready for anything.
- [92:31]
Bill Simmons
I don't think they will trade Jaylen Brown. Just for the record.
- [92:35]
Zach Lowe
I would bet against it, too, but it's going to be interesting summer for your Boston Celtics.
- [92:39]
Bill Simmons
I think Drew Holiday will have. And I love Drew Holiday, but I don't think the team's going to compete next year. And I think Drew Holiday has real value for a lot of teams and I think people are underrating that.
- [92:50]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, there are a lot of teams that like Drew Holiday, including some teams that have tried to trade for him before and we're not able to.
- [92:55]
Bill Simmons
That is exactly when teams talk about we need. We need an older veteran who's won and who knows how and only cares about winning. It's like he. That's literally Drew Holiday. We hear this every year. Eight teams want a guy like that. So I just feel like unfortunately he's probably the one if they have to move. White's contract is too good. You can't trade White. I don't think I would.
- [93:13]
Zach Lowe
I would prefer. I would not want to be in the business of trading awesome basketball players who are still in their prime and do everything well. Just wouldn't want to be in that business on good contracts.
- [93:22]
Bill Simmons
Are you going to the game Thursday?
- [93:24]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. I have not gotten my official credential approval notice from the Madison Square Garden company, but I suspect that that will come through day of game. And I'm excited to be there.
- [93:33]
Bill Simmons
Great. It was great to hang out with you here on YouTube, live on the Bill Simmons podcast. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. And I'm going to be back on Thursday. You're going to be Thursday morning. So after game five, OKC and Minnesota which are OKC is going to close it out, but I also like I I wouldn't bet like a crazy amount of money on it.
- [93:56]
Zach Lowe
Hey, if OKC doesn't close out, that's good for the podcast. That'll be a surprising outcome, but I'm prepared with alternate content if necessary.
- [94:04]
Bill Simmons
Good idea. All right, Zach Lowe, great to see you.
- [94:06]
Zach Lowe
Always.
- [94:11]
Bill Simmons
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